WSO Cartels Rife on WF :(

163 replies
Hi Warriors

Is it just us or is a serious pattern emerging in WSO's whereby the same 'Group" of people keep saying nice things about someone's product.

Then a week later they launch their own WSO and lo and behold the same mug shots pop up again - often with the same or similar lame comment!!!

Our take on it is that some of the "Coaches" are the catalysts for the cluster groups "sticking together like glue"...

Thoughts anyone???

Regards

Bronwyn and Keith
#cartels #rife #wso
  • Profile picture of the author badut jenaka
    That is actually not a new "secrets"
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  • Profile picture of the author Brent Stangel
    And your point?
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    • Hi Brent

      It's probably just more obvious over the past 6 months or so.

      Maybe the Mods could do something about it???

      Just saying given they managed to clean up the "Income proof" issue pretty well maybe they could target the obvious cartel based BS reviews???

      Regards

      Bronwyn and Keith

      Originally Posted by Brent Stangel View Post

      And your point?
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Bronwyn and Keith View Post

        It's probably just more obvious over the past 6 months or so.
        It's always been obvious.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Why isn't that covered under a WSO must be your product ?? or did that rule change??
          I remember only one WSO being deleted a long time ago when it was learned the well known member using her name was selling a product by someone who had been banned here previously.

          I don't think the problem is the partnerships - I think it's the hidden nature of partnerships that is worrisome.

          This is in the JV section from 2012 JV thread where the goal was to help each other with sales and creating buzz, collaborate and promote each other's products. It's not something new here.

          Can vouch that this is a real group of active WSO Creators. Very vibrant, active and helpful group of people. Far and away the best group of it's type that I have joined.
          and an excerpt from a JV thread in 2014

          looking for new people to JV and launch products/WSOs with. My last two WSOs were WSO of the Day award winners
          Nothing wrong with a partnership IF it's disclosed. It's the hidden nature of some of these WSO 'arrangements' that I have a problem with.
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        • Hi Suzanne

          Yeah obvious in a covert way.

          Now it stands out like the proverbial....

          Regards

          Bronwyn and Keith
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          It's always been obvious.
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Bronwyn and Keith View Post

            Hi Suzanne

            Yeah obvious in a covert way.

            Now it stands out like the proverbial....

            Regards

            Bronwyn and Keith
            Just saying ... I've noticed it for years. Same people over and over doing reviews that pretty much sound exactly the same for any product. Chronic reviewers.
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      • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
        Originally Posted by Bronwyn and Keith View Post

        It's probably just more obvious over the past 6 months or so.
        It's only obvious because you are noticing it now. It's actually been a problem for many years.

        The people most likely to notice the pattern of shill testimonials are the least likely to buy the WSO. Newbies are never going to spot the pattern.
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    If there is an obvious pattern emerging then it should be looked into.

    It's a bit like review swapping on Kindle.

    It reminds me of how the top gurus would all endorse each other's launches.
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    • Hi Sal

      Yeah agreed.

      The funny thing is that some of the Cartel are even "openly stating" that they purchased the item - this is just a covert way of doing 2 things - 1) boosting sales for each other and 2) pretending that they are not part of an Organised cluster group.

      Their is a definite pattern - we could point the Mods to 50 - 100 examples to check as it stands out like the proverbial...


      Regards

      Bronwyn and Keith
      Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

      If there is an obvious pattern emerging then it should be looked into.

      It's a bit like review swapping on Kindle.

      It reminds me of how the top gurus would all endorse each other's launches.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

      If there is an obvious pattern emerging then it should be looked into.

      It's a bit like review swapping on Kindle.

      It reminds me of how the top gurus would all endorse each other's launches.
      I agree with Sal and when he agrees with me in a different thread it is just a coincidence.
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      • Hi Thomas

        It's fine to agree.

        But... if we see you agreeing with Sal and Sal agreeing with you in 37 different Newly Launched WSO's in the next 3 weeks we will "think" something is up...LOL

        Regards


        Bronwyn and Keith
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        I agree with Sal and when he agrees with me in a different thread it is just a coincidence.
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      • Profile picture of the author sal64
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        I agree with Sal and when he agrees with me in a different thread it is just a coincidence.
        The Nude Nut Cartel
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        • Profile picture of the author Ken Leatherman
          Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

          The Nude Nut Cartel
          Sal talk about reading something that wasn't there when I first read your post it came out as the "The Nude Nut Cutting Cartel" I'm going to blame it on my stroke. LOL!

          Ken
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          • Profile picture of the author rjrivera
            Hey everyone,

            I am actually new here and I was researching about how to make money through special reports. I found a WSO which I purchased yesterday and I find it OK. I even commented on it saying that I want to be an affiliate for that product since I really liked it. I have to be honest I got enticed with the reviews/comments but this is a scary revelation from everyone. I honestly did not know.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kory Pearman
    They are all part of mastermind groups.

    They all promote each others products and leave reviews on each others launches.

    Head over to Facebook and you'll see they are all friends with each other and are all in the same Facebook groups.

    Just part of the business.

    Originally Posted by Brent Stangel View Post

    And your point?
    Such an amazing and insightful post! Thanks for blessing us!
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    • Hey Kory

      Hadn't thought about the obvious additional proof of the connectivity of these Cartels hooking up on FB too.

      Had just focused on what is going on here.

      Good catch though.

      Regards

      Bronwyn and Keith
      Originally Posted by Kory Pearman View Post

      They are all part of mastermind groups.

      They all promote each others products and leave reviews on each others launches.

      Head over to Facebook and you'll see they are all friends with each other and are all in the same Facebook groups.

      Just part of the business.



      Such an amazing and insightful post! Thanks for blessing us!
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    Well, it is not surprising when you consider a lot of the "coaching" surrounds wso's and there are groups for the students.......

    Social proof being a motivator etc... only problem is, it is not social proof and if it's outright lying there is a big problem.

    Reviews are needed but it doesn't take too long for people to begin to see the pattern which inevitably will backfire

    -WD
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    • Hi WD

      Yes it the blatant lying that irks us the most.

      Well said.

      Regards

      Bronwyn and Keith
      Originally Posted by WD Mino View Post

      Well, it is not surprising when you consider a lot of the "coaching" surrounds wso's and there are groups for the students.......

      Social proof being a motivator etc... only problem is, it is not social proof and if it's outright lying there is a big problem.

      Reviews are needed but it doesn't take too long for people to begin to see the pattern which inevitably will backfire

      -WD
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  • Profile picture of the author kibebe7
    I honestly think that there is a thin line on this. If I have a group of internet marketing friends and update them anytime I launch a product/book..etc, they are bound by both friendship and future business interests to buy my book/product and give a good review on the same. And if they do this for me, I will definitely have no choice but to return the favor when their products are out. Is this really wrong? Its business at the end of the day...
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    • Profile picture of the author Cali16
      Originally Posted by Bronwyn and Keith View Post

      Their is a definite pattern - we could point the Mods to 50 - 100 examples to check as it stands out like the proverbial...
      I would encourage you to bring it to the attention of the mods - and perhaps even send a pm to Alaister. You could also post this as a suggestion in the designated sub-forum.

      The problem is that, when these products are crap, all the legit buyers lose. If they leave a negative review they may end up having to contend with all the seller's friends who will find one way or another to discredit them.

      Originally Posted by kibebe7 View Post

      Is this really wrong? Its business at the end of the day...
      My response to that is this: How would you feel, as a buyer, if you had no idea that all the positive reviews (that convinced you to buy) were coming from a circle of very biased friends of the seller, only to discover that the product you bought doesn't live up to their praise? How likely are you to buy from that seller again? Just something to think about... (If you're leaving a positive review because you genuinely think the product is good, then that's different.)
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      • Profile picture of the author nik0
        Banned
        Every now and again I receive a request by PM to review a certain product, if I wanted I could and get a review back when in need but I don't feel anything for reviewing their worthless WSO's and I'm sure they wouldn't appreciate my review.

        Actually I can't even be bothered to read their xx crap.

        More on topic, nothing recent, nothing more since 6 months, I think it was even worst when I joined this forum about 3 years ago.

        What's even worse is that negative reviews are being removed and Freelancer followed up with that trend, which is just disgusting, no not for everyone, but when it involves some high ticket seller they receive a special treatment, and that has been going on for years as well.

        Something else somewhat related, in the past I had a few accounts banned, back than I didn't have any paid sales threads, once I started a new account and launched a few sales threads I was never perm banned again, just a few 24 hour - 7 days ban and a handful of permanent / final warnings lol. They are so ******* money horny here and it influences the way they run this forum in a huge way.

        So don't expect they take any action against these fake review cartels.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by Bronwyn and Keith View Post

          Hi Warriors

          Is it just us or is a serious pattern emerging in WSO's
          If its emerging its been emerging for 4 years. I actually contacted a cartel member wanting more info about a glowing review he wrote (since I knew him I was going to buy on his say so) and he told me the product was garbage.

          Thing is what are you going to do about it? extreme cases report but in most cases its much more subtle.

          Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

          in the past I had a few accounts banned, back than I didn't have any paid sales threads, once I started a new account and launched a few sales threads I was never perm banned again, just a few 24 hour - 7 days ban and a handful of permanent / final warnings lol. They are so ******* money horny here and it influences the way they run this forum in a huge way.
          Might not be too bright to call them names while at the same time be confessing to being a MULTIPLE permanently banned member under a different account.
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          • Profile picture of the author discrat
            Reminds me of that Movie I recently saw "21". A bunch of MIT students making a team of blackjack players with a System by going to Casinos and committing fraud and to make money

            It sounds like these WSOs guys have a System


            - Robert Andrew
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          • Profile picture of the author nik0
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            Might not be too bright to call them names while at the same time be confessing to being a MULTIPLE permanently banned member under a different account.
            Shows how much I care doesn't it?

            Besides, I think its already well known, after all I use the same email address as my first or second account or it's my Paypal address that I bumped so many threads with that is identical to one of my previous accounts, either way I messed up somewhere and realized that at a later point.

            Reason why I was banned is more important, I didn't scam anyone, I never offered anything for sale with these accounts, never linked to somewhere from my signature that would financially benefit me, just some heated discussions as usual and once stalking a seller from some complete buggy garbage software, pissed me off as they removed my negative review so I didn't give up so easily.

            I seriously think all of the bans were unfair but as they had no financial gains from me it was just easy to perm ban me (never received a warning) and maintain the peace.

            If we apply the same rules you should've been perm banned a million times as well.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

              If we apply the same rules you should've been perm banned a million times as well.
              Somehow I don't think that someone who just admitted to being permanently banned several times on WF and then making up new accounts in violation of even more rules will ever get a vote on that. lol .....sorry

              I seriously think all of the bans were unfair
              All of those permanent bans Paul gave you were unfair eh?.....lol

              Originally Posted by kencalhn View Post

              trust nobody ... works great for me
              When it comes to reviews I think thats a must and nothing much anyone can do about it.
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            • Profile picture of the author Oggyoi
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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
          Banned
          Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

          They are so ******* money horny here
          LOL, who can blame them? To be fair to them, I would be, too, if I'd paid $3.2 Million for the place: I'd want to see a return on my money, net of management, admin, staff, maintenance and hosting costs, professional fees etc. etc., and some appreciation of my asset, as well, you know?

          Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

          So don't expect they take any action against these fake review cartels.
          I don't, really - but mostly not for that reason: I just think it's pretty hard for them (for anyone) to gather the proof they'd need, to take realistic action.

          Everyone around here knows that I'm not slow to criticise the forum owners when I have criticism to offer (and that's quite often ), but on this specific issue I do have some sympathy for them, because as a forum-owner myself, I can actually envisage being in their position and genuinely not being able to do very much about this one. I'm "just saying" ...


          .
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          • Profile picture of the author nik0
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            LOL, who can blame them? To be fair to them, I would be, too, if I'd paid $3.2 Million for the place: I'd want to see a return on my money, net of management, admin, staff, maintenance and hosting costs, professional fees etc. etc., and some appreciation of my asset, as well, you know?
            Lol fair point.


            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            I don't, really - but mostly not for that reason: I just think it's pretty hard for them (for anyone) to gather the proof they'd need, to take realistic action.

            Everyone around here knows that I'm not slow to criticise the forum owners when I have criticism to offer (and that's quite often ), but on this specific issue I do have some sympathy for them, because as a forum-owner myself, I can actually envisage being in their position and genuinely not being able to do very much about this one. I'm "just saying" ...
            Hard as in time consuming sure, without knowing if it will yield results even harder.


            .
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            LOL, who can blame them? To be fair to them, I would be, too, if I'd paid $3.2 Million for the place: I'd want to see a return on my money,
            .
            Only thing is Alexa - that poster has been selling on WF from long before FreeLancer bought the place. So he was permanently banned SEVERAL times by Paul Meyers and kept making up other profiles. So his claim of money grubbing would apply to all owners past and present.
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          • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            LOL, who can blame them? To be fair to them, I would be, too, if I'd paid $3.2 Million for the place: I'd want to see a return on my money,
            This forum and any satellite services connected to it have the potential to be worth far more. It's going to involve slowly moving away from the get rich quick scam stereotype that this forum has carried for many years though.

            Look at the achievements of the old SitePoint forum (RIP). Flippa and 99designs both started out as sub-forums there. That whole operation is worth literally more than 10x WarriorForum.

            This forum can maybe do something similar over time.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

        I would encourage you to bring it to the attention of the mods - and perhaps even send a pm to Alaister.
        Definitely the Administrators rather than the Moderators, for something like this: the Moderators seem to have very limited powers (as they themselves sometimes comment.)

        For anything involving WSO's, I think Daniel, rather than Alaister, is the "go-to-guy".

        I agree completely that this issue is a substantial and increasing concern.

        I suspect it also may not be a very easy one for the forum to do much about: "seeing what's going on" is easy, but proving it is perhaps another matter altogether?


        .
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          I think the WSO section is a victim of its own success. How can you tell people they CAN'T leave reviews? After all, sellers are allowed to place ads for reviewers and give away free copies. "Coordinated reviews" have been going on now for 2-3 years to some extent - has become more blatant this past year.

          Of more concern to me is the rather new practice of "let me run your WSO for you". There are JVs for that and that's why some members here have a NEW WSO every week...they are putting them in their name for someone else and splitting profits.

          I don't expect to buy from one person and then learn I actually bought a product by someone else....someone I know nothing about. Those are the same WSOs where your email ends up added to two or more new "lists".

          If members purchase a WSO after due diligence on the seller....and then are sent a product by someone else being "fronted" by the seller...that is pure deception. It goes against the spirit of the "must be something you create" rule. I think there should be a firm rule that ALL participants in a WSO be disclosed in the sales copy.

          As for reviews - we've said over and over the only review you can believe is one by someone you personally know. All other reviews should be ignored.
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          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            I think there should be a firm rule that ALL participants in a WSO be disclosed in the sales copy.
            I agree completely.

            This would clearly be helpful (even if perhaps sometimes not trivially easy to enforce).

            .
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            Of more concern to me is the rather new practice of "let me run your WSO for you". There are JVs for that and that's why some members here have a NEW WSO every week...they are putting them in their name for someone else and splitting profits.

            Why isn't that covered under a WSO must be your product ?? or did that rule change??
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          • Hi Kay

            This is a ripper of an overview.

            Thanks for the great input.


            Regards

            Bronwyn and Keith
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            I think the WSO section is a victim of its own success. How can you tell people they CAN'T leave reviews? After all, sellers are allowed to place ads for reviewers and give away free copies. "Coordinated reviews" have been going on now for 2-3 years to some extent - has become more blatant this past year.

            Of more concern to me is the rather new practice of "let me run your WSO for you". There are JVs for that and that's why some members here have a NEW WSO every week...they are putting them in their name for someone else and splitting profits.

            I don't expect to buy from one person and then learn I actually bought a product by someone else....someone I know nothing about. Those are the same WSOs where your email ends up added to two or more new "lists".

            If members purchase a WSO after due diligence on the seller....and then are sent a product by someone else being "fronted" by the seller...that is pure deception. It goes against the spirit of the "must be something you create" rule. I think there should be a firm rule that ALL participants in a WSO be disclosed in the sales copy.

            As for reviews - we've said over and over the only review you can believe is one by someone you personally know. All other reviews should be ignored.
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        • Hi Alexa

          Good points.

          However - some of the reviewers/commenters are not even smart enough to change the comment for different WSO's

          So, figuring it out isn't all that difficult.

          The biggest players are the ones who came out of nowhere with a bunch of WSO's that all looked and smelt very very similar too.

          Often the WSO's would be telling you exactly the same thing but with a "special twist" that supposedly made it unique. Plus the different images and proof shots of course.


          Regards

          Bronwyn and Keith
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          Definitely the Administrators rather than the Moderators, for something like this: the Moderators seem to have very limited powers (as they themselves sometimes comment.)

          For anything involving WSO's, I think Daniel, rather than Alaister, is the "go-to-guy".

          I agree completely that this issue is a substantial and increasing concern.

          I suspect it also may not be a very easy one for the forum to do much about: "seeing what's going on" is easy, but proving it is perhaps another matter altogether?


          .
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          • Profile picture of the author majestic12
            When I used to receive emails about products I would always google "warrior forum product name" , 9 times out of ten I would see some decent threads with real reviews and honest buyer feedback. Now I see the same 4 or 5 people promoting the identical offer, these threads usually have zero comments from buyers and of course the people promoting have zero technical knowledge of the products they are selling.

            I am sure that eventually this practice will lose the forum a good deal of credibility, its very sad because the forum used to be a great way of evaluation new releases.

            I hope someone from the forum takes this seriously and stops this practice.....
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          • Originally Posted by Bronwyn and Keith View Post

            Hi Alexa

            Good points.

            However - some of the reviewers/commenters are not even smart enough to change the comment for different WSO's

            So, figuring it out isn't all that difficult.

            The biggest players are the ones who came out of nowhere with a bunch of WSO's that all looked and smelt very very similar too.

            Often the WSO's would be telling you exactly the same thing but with a "special twist" that supposedly made it unique. Plus the different images and proof shots of course.


            Regards

            Bronwyn and Keith
            Yes. Biggest players create many WSO's

            Or bots?
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    • Profile picture of the author Formal Shorts
      Originally Posted by kibebe7 View Post

      I honestly think that there is a thin line on this. If I have a group of internet marketing friends and update them anytime I launch a product/book..etc, they are bound by both friendship and future business interests to buy my book/product and give a good review on the same. And if they do this for me, I will definitely have no choice but to return the favor when their products are out. Is this really wrong? Its business at the end of the day...


      You're right, it is business. So why are you talking about friendship?


      From a business point of view, the last thing you want to be doing is putting your name to an endorsement of a shitty product. You most certainly don't have to return any favour. Similarly, in business, you should be far more appreciative of someone saying "Kibebe, this product is terrible. It doesn't work for these reasons." That gives you the chance to make improvements. How great would it be if you didn't have to count on owed reviews, but came up with a product that actually generated legitimate positive feedback?


      I started a thread like this about two years ago and got fairly slammed for it, but it absolutely flabbergasts me that there are WSO's about how to create and sell WSO's. When the purpose is to sell a genuine product at a discounted rate, I fail to see the legitimacy in a WSO offering to create and sell WSO's to people with no product to sell.


      I don't mean to have a go at anyone who is selling such a WSO, it just seems warped to me.
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      • Hi Dave

        Loved the bit that we highlighted in the quote from you.

        Regards

        Bronwyn and Keith
        Originally Posted by Formal Shorts View Post

        You're right, it is business. So why are you talking about friendship?


        From a business point of view, the last thing you want to be doing is putting your name to an endorsement of a shitty product. You most certainly don't have to return any favour. Similarly, in business, you should be far more appreciative of someone saying "Kibebe, this product is terrible. It doesn't work for these reasons." That gives you the chance to make improvements. How great would it be if you didn't have to count on owed reviews, but came up with a product that actually generated legitimate positive feedback?


        I started a thread like this about two years ago and got fairly slammed for it, but it absolutely flabbergasts me that there are WSO's about how to create and sell WSO's. When the purpose is to sell a genuine product at a discounted rate, I fail to see the legitimacy in a WSO offering to create and sell WSO's to people with no product to sell.


        I don't mean to have a go at anyone who is selling such a WSO, it just seems warped to me.
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  • well look at all the WSO's on how "complete newbie can create a gang buster wso within 2 weeks." Must be great quality. So they they are all part of the cartel and push each others products.

    There goes the neighbourhood!
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    • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
      Originally Posted by WD Mino View Post

      Well, it is not surprising when you consider a lot of the "coaching" surrounds wso's and there are groups for the students.......

      Social proof being a motivator etc... only problem is, it is not social proof and if it's outright lying there is a big problem.

      Reviews are needed but it doesn't take too long for people to begin to see the pattern which inevitably will backfire

      -WD
      This has been going on for a while now, but it's blatantly obvious with all these coaching WSO's. Previously, it was just the same groups of groupies, JV's and affiliates. Really, if you look at some certain WSO creators, you see the exact same people commenting how great it is. If it really was that great, why you are guys still buying every new WSO?
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      • Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

        If it really was that great, why you are guys still buying every new WSO?
        Exactly. They should all be millionaires by now.
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    LOL. Good point. I mean there is nothing wrong with offering review copies, the problem is the outright lying that they bought it. not to mention a review doesn't really carry any weight if it is willy nilly, I do yours you do mine. One of the reasons I quit coming here was because of the over the top garbage going on in the wso section, long time later, still going on just different people.

    LOL What can you do, some are legit some are whacked out. It is a vicious circle and incidentally it is also one that has gotten many pp accounts frozen and closed.

    "you guys sell products about making money, to people who want to make money, who then sell products about making money who then...." or something to that effect was a quote from pp manger guy. LOL ooops

    As long as people buy them, someone will sell them.
    -WD
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    • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
      Originally Posted by WD Mino View Post

      LOL. Good point. I mean there is nothing wrong with offering review copies, the problem is the outright lying that they bought it. not to mention a review doesn't really carry any weight if it is willy nilly, I do yours you do mine. One of the reasons I quit coming here was because of the over the top garbage going on in the wso section, long time later, still going on just different people.

      LOL What can you do, some are legit some are whacked out. It is a vicious circle and incidentally it is also one that has gotten many pp accounts frozen and closed.

      "you guys sell products about making money, to people who want to make money, who then sell products about making money who then...." or something to that effect was a quote from pp manger guy. LOL ooops

      As long as people buy them, someone will sell them.
      -WD
      When I launched mine I literally had about 10 PM's asking to trade reviews. I don't know if it's because of my post count or if they just wanted to swap reviews.

      If you can't get good reviews naturally, then maybe you're attempting to sell something you shouldn't be selling lol.
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    LOL Agreed. Even if the product is awesome, customers will say so, reviewers can post they went through the content, which helps for social proof, I get it, but, the review will stop carrying any weight at all when it is obvious things can't truly be trusted.Then people will be left dead in the water because it backfired.
    Wisdom is needed for sure.

    Best,
    -WD
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  • Profile picture of the author Virtualghost
    I think a lot of it is that if you are a buyer/reviewer for someones product and they like your follow up posts or review as we call it,they promote any new products they have to you which there's nothing wrong with it.I question the ones with 0 posts and they are giving a review.
    Thing I find is people who give reviews don't want to give out bad reviews here as they are afraid of not being accepted by the overall forum.And god forbid you give a bad review to a WSO from one of our forum"Guru's'.I mean find a WSO that has lots of posts and you'll find no one is actually saying they made money as stated in WSO and if you say not making anything well"your not putting in any effort" so they say.
    My big beef is a lot it is the same stuff rewritten over and over again.
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  • Profile picture of the author salegurus
    It's not new... I stumbled across something similar a year or two ago.
    Same 4 guys commenting/leaving glowing reviews on each others WSO,
    welcome to the rotten underbelly of the WSO forum....
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Hacks
    Personally, as new member, I think it detracts value from the site to have a the WSO section anyway. It's like, how is any advice impartial if in the very forum the advice is given there is a product to be sold giving the same advice.
    I just hope there's enough good guys on here who are actually interested in helping people enough for free without needing to take their money. All that said, the WSO I bought was well worth the money....$1 well spent as I gamble or eat that much every day. The other thing I've bought was $17 but had i bought it for the 5k it was originally sold for I'd have been mortified. It's all risk vs reward at the end of the day regardless of reviews.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I think it detracts value from the site
      Sorry, but had to chuckle. This site is owned by a for-profit company - of course they are going to SELL to people here. Hellloooo - it's a marketing forum

      The other thing I've bought was $17 but had i bought it for the 5k it was originally sold for I'd have been mortified.
      Don't believe all the prices you read. The best way to buy WSOs is the same as the best way to learn internet marketing on this forum. Spend time reading - use the search function to find info you need - learn which members here are helpful and knowledgeable...and which are not.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ron C Farrow
      Originally Posted by Steve Hacks View Post

      Personally, as new member, I think it detracts value from the site to have a the WSO section anyway. It's like, how is any advice impartial if in the very forum the advice is given there is a product to be sold giving the same advice.
      I just hope there's enough good guys on here who are actually interested in helping people enough for free without needing to take their money. All that said, the WSO I bought was well worth the money....$1 well spent as I gamble or eat that much every day. The other thing I've bought was $17 but had i bought it for the 5k it was originally sold for I'd have been mortified. It's all risk vs reward at the end of the day regardless of reviews.
      I have several WSO' I've purchased over the past year. The best was voted 'best WSO of the year'. I have made money using it, I bought it direct from the WSO page. WF works but only for the wary. Personally I am pleased to see the end of the '$10,000 in 7 days' sales pitches and hopefully that particular type of seller will move on to pastures new.

      There are lots of good guys on WF and some not so good as well. We need to sort the wheat from the chaff ourselves.
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    • Profile picture of the author M Thompson
      Originally Posted by Steve Hacks View Post

      Personally, as new member, I think it detracts value from the site to have a the WSO section anyway. It's like, how is any advice impartial if in the very forum the advice is given there is a product to be sold giving the same advice.
      Steve, I know what you are saying but I have to disagree..

      This is a marketing forum people are here to learn marketing and how to make money online.

      I could give away all my tips and secrets for free but then i'd have to get a "Real Job" To feed my family. (Full disclosure - I've not done any WSO's for a year or so but i have done them in the past)

      If people couldn't make money Via selling Wso's then they most would probably go elsewhere which would lead to loads of unanswered posts.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ghoster
    I'm amazed that this thread is even still up.

    That said, all marketplaces have fake reviews. It's one of those problems that can't be solved completely.
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    • Profile picture of the author WareTime
      Originally Posted by Ghoster View Post

      I'm amazed that this thread is even still up.

      That said, all marketplaces have fake reviews. It's one of those problems that can't be solved completely.
      True. Musn't let the noobs know there are sharks in the pool.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Hess
    Originally Posted by Bronwyn and Keith View Post

    Hi Warriors

    Is it just us or is a serious pattern emerging in WSO's whereby the same 'Group" of people keep saying nice things about someone's product.

    Then a week later they launch their own WSO and lo and behold the same mug shots pop up again - often with the same or similar lame comment!!!

    Our take on it is that some of the "Coaches" are the catalysts for the cluster groups "sticking together like glue"...

    Thoughts anyone???

    Regards

    Bronwyn and Keith
    Besides the fact that the people who are in "the ring" you're referring to aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer and all basically create shit products...

    They're not disclosing the fact that they're affiliates on the thread along with their "review". Which breaks a long(er) standing WSO rule.

    This rule started because of the game we used to play when WSO launches were a big thing 2009-2012. (yes, I said we).

    Before, you would start a WSO thread a day or two before launch, blast your affiliate list, and get them to leave reviews and positive feedback on the thread.

    On "launch" day, everyone mails and the first 1 or 2 pages of the thread would already be filled with positive comments.

    It was basically lambs to the slaughter and all the comments did wonders for conversion rates.

    That's why the disclosure rules were put in place to help protect potential buyers from this sort of thing.

    It's one thing to have someone who was given a review copy post on the thread, but it's quite another when you have affiliates doing it who have a vested interest in the product's success and is manipulating sales.
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    • Hi Mark

      As always your comments are insightful and have the extra element of making sure that you bring the rules into play.

      Most people on the WF don't have the same grasp of the rules that you bring to the table - kudos to you for keeping up to date with them and also sharing that info.


      Regards


      Bronwyn and Keith
      Originally Posted by Mark Hess View Post

      Besides the fact that the people who are in "the ring" you're referring to aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer and all basically create shit products...

      They're not disclosing the fact that they're affiliates on the thread along with their "review". Which breaks a long(er) standing WSO rule.

      This rule started because of the game we used to play when WSO launches were a big thing 2010-2012. (yes, I said we).

      Before, you would start a WSO thread a day or two before launch, blast your affiliate list, and get them to leave reviews and positive feedback on the thread.

      On "launch" day, everyone mails and the first 1 or 2 pages of the thread would already be filled with positive comments.

      It was basically lambs to the slaughter and all the comments did wonders for conversion rates.

      That's why the disclosure rules were put in place to help protect potential buyers from this sort of thing.

      It's one thing to have someone who was given a review copy post on the thread, but it's quite another when you have affiliates doing it who have a vested interest in the product's success and is manipulating sales.
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  • Profile picture of the author kencalhn
    trust nobody ... works great for me
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  • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
    This practice isn't exclusive to the warrior forum.

    It's been going on for years and happens with products/services being sold outside of the warrior forum as well.

    Maybe you're noticing it more in the last 6 months because you're more active in that part of the forum?

    A lot of the times, they aren't even testimonials for the product being sold, but an endorsement for the vendor.
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    • Hi Jason

      Yeah we are aware that it has been going on for years. In fact we were WF watchers for 5 years before we signed up and saw the pattern then to a much lesser degree.

      So when we joined almost 6 years ago we came in with that knowledge already in the backs of our minds.

      The escalation has been the past 6 months or so perhaps a bit longer as Kay mentioned.

      If you have a look at our only WSO in the past 10 or 11 months it was in December for specials on 3 successful products we launched on JVZoo with zero income proof. The products just worked as stated.

      Three reasons we launched elsewhere.
      1) We are lone wolves and have zero interest in the games being played by the cartels
      2) the trolls can't get to your thread and kill it.
      3) We felt that we would put our faith in people who were interested in selling our stuff (affiliates).

      But all the while we were "watching"...

      Regards

      Bronwyn and Keith

      Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

      This practice isn't exclusive to the warrior forum.

      It's been going on for years and happens with products/services being sold outside of the warrior forum as well.

      Maybe you're noticing it more in the last 6 months because you're more active in that part of the forum?

      A lot of the times, they aren't even testimonials for the product being sold, but an endorsement for the vendor.
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  • Profile picture of the author quadagon
    You really have to accept it Frank Kern et al have been teaching this method for years.

    Its a fundamental part of a launch strategy for some self proclaimed guru's

    I think its a case of Caveat emptor.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ghoster
    With any online marketplace, it pays to look at the lowest star ratings first. That's pretty much the only way to get an honest opinion of Amazon products and books these days. The same principle should be applied to a market like this.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dovakiin
    Banned
    @ Bronwyn & Keith

    You're developing a deeper understanding about how this whole online business thing works. Be careful, you're learning secrets that people don't want you to know about....as if that's not already obvious by the responses you've garnered so far. And the forum won't do anything about it because it's good for business. It goes beyond the forum, mind you...but you're learning.
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    • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
      WSO review cartels, testimonial cartels, and even thank you for this post cartels ... and more is just part of the landscape. Not much (micro-managing) the forum can do about that.

      Not even much motivation in the scheme of things. I imagine they have higher priority issues to deal with. So, even here with the products and valueable information this forum has, the unwritten rule is ...

      "Let the buyer, advice taker and information seeker beware!"
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      • Hi

        Agreed.

        Unfortunately these cartels work on the basis of reeling in the minnows and raping and pilaging them

        That's not cool as not all buyers are "aware" that they should be beware of these types. By the time they do figure it out we will have lost most of them to a great industry and they will have lost faith and money along the way.


        Bronwyn and Keith
        Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

        WSO review cartels, testimonial cartels, and even thank you for this post cartels ... and more is just part of the landscape. Not much (micro-managing) the forum can do about that.

        Not even much motivation in the scheme of things. I imagine they have higher priority issues to deal with. So, even here with the products and valueable information this forum has, the unwritten rule is ...

        "Let the buyer, advice taker and information seeker beware!"
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    • Hi Dovakiin

      We had that deeper understandiing before we joined and are lucky enough to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff.

      The reason that we have brought it to everyone's attention is that it has become so rampant that it is endangering what is a good forum that we have actually learned a lot from over the years. And that pisses us off....

      Regards

      Bronwyn and Keith
      Originally Posted by Dovakiin View Post

      @ Bronwyn & Keith

      You're developing a deeper understanding about how this whole online business thing works. Be careful, you're learning secrets that people don't want you to know about....as if that's not already obvious by the responses you've garnered so far. And the forum won't do anything about it because it's good for business. It goes beyond the forum, mind you...but you're learning.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim Franklin
    When I look over a WSO, If a large portion of the sales page is full of reviews, it tells me something about the product offering.

    Strictly speaking, Sales page content should not feature reviews.

    From my perspective, reviews if needed at all, should be placed firmly at the bottom of the sales page, You can always publish a "bug" directing someone that was actually interested in reading a review, to scroll to the bottom to see the reviews.

    Reviews are not needed IF,

    You have a great product, the product will speak loudly for itself.

    Sadly, reviews have become a joke, take for instance the latest highly promoted product offering that makes wildly amazing claims about how much money you can make and lots of other equally fictitious information about how you can make huge sums of money affiliate marketing with "Their" SAS service.

    The reviews are Bull, but everyone is promoting it, IF they knew what they were promoting they would not be promoting it, sad again that so many do it only for the money not because its actually a good product.

    Fake reviews are a problem, basically like lots of others here we all discount reviews because we know that most of the time they are not accurate.
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    • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
      Strictly speaking, Sales page content should not feature reviews.

      From my perspective, reviews if needed at all, should be placed firmly at the bottom of the sales page, You can always publish a "bug" directing someone that was actually interested in reading a review, to scroll to the bottom to see the reviews.

      Reviews are not needed IF,

      You have a great product, the product will speak loudly for itself.
      What? Wow.

      This is horse pucky and I'm surprised to see it on a marketing forum.

      Reviews are powerful and should be used. If you have a great review, especially from an authority, stick at the top of your page. Emphasize it. Blow it up.

      Tim, if you give a positive review of one of my products, and I'm mailing to your friends, your review is going to be front and center at the top of my letter, even before a headline. It would be foolish not to use it, or to bury it at the end of a letter.

      Reviews from actual third party users talking about a product can be much more useful and informative than the seller saying the same thing in sales copy.

      This is marketing 101.

      Of course the reason why reviews are so important is the same reason why there are "cartels" trying to game the section.

      Of more concern to me is the rather new practice of "let me run your WSO for you". There are JVs for that and that's why some members here have a NEW WSO every week...they are putting them in their name for someone else and splitting profits.

      I don't expect to buy from one person and then learn I actually bought a product by someone else....someone I know nothing about. Those are the same WSOs where your email ends up added to two or more new "lists".
      These practices were previously banned. I doubt the "new" rules were intended to allow this. Most likely, it is simply a lack of experience by new moderators and/or someone not reporting the issue.

      This is the type of iceberg, as the people doing this type of stuff often also recycle unsubscribes and sell email addresses.

      But if it is allowed, there's gonna be a real crap storm of turd products, spam, and a lot of complaints from buyers, which will cause the practice to end. All it takes is one bad spam experience to keep people from buying again through the forum.

      .
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      • Profile picture of the author 9AppAve
        Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

        What? Wow.

        This is horse pucky and I'm surprised to see it on a marketing forum.

        Reviews are powerful and should be used. If you have a great review, especially from an authority, stick at the top of your page. Emphasize it. Blow it up.

        Tim, if you give a positive review of one of my products, and I'm mailing to your friends, your review is going to be front and center at the top of my letter, even before a headline. It would be foolish not to use it, or to bury it at the end of a letter.

        Reviews from actual third party users talking about a product can be much more useful and informative than the seller saying the same thing in sales copy.

        This is marketing 101.

        Of course the reason why reviews are so important is the same reason why there are "cartels" trying to game the section.



        These practices were previously banned. I doubt the "new" rules were intended to allow this. Most likely, it is simply a lack of experience by new moderators and/or someone not reporting the issue.

        This is the type of iceberg, as the people doing this type of stuff often also recycle unsubscribes and sell email addresses.

        But if it is allowed, there's gonna be a real crap storm of turd products, spam, and a lot of complaints from buyers, which will cause the practice to end. All it takes is one bad spam experience to keep people from buying again through the forum.

        .

        Cant speak for Tim, do not know him, but I believe the topic is concerning WSO reviews at the point of sale not list after the fact, spam and whatever else is being said....

        "Marketing 101" what year ? Since 2010, I have rarely looked or made a decision on reviews maybe the occasional hotel, and as far as these cartels "mastermind groups" I cannot tell you how many times I have been approached for consulting at conferences and they lead with I am in xxx Mastermind group and I immediately shut down... As in my previous post reviews are important but feel most educated buyers today take them with a grain of salt or much less.
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        • Profile picture of the author GforceSage
          Originally Posted by 9AppAve View Post

          Cant speak for Tim, do not know him, but I believe the topic is concerning WSO reviews at the point of sale not list after the fact, spam and whatever else is being said....

          "Marketing 101" what year ? Since 2010, I have rarely looked or made a decision on reviews maybe the occasional hotel, and as far as these cartels "mastermind groups" I cannot tell you how many times I have been approached for consulting at conferences and they lead with I am in xxx Mastermind group and I immediately shut down... As in my previous post reviews are important but feel most educated buyers today take them with a grain of salt or much less.

          If you see a review from someone you know to be reliable, it's golden. That review from a reputable source sells hotel rooms, generates restaurant visits, and moves Wso's. Proven time and time again.
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        • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
          Originally Posted by 9AppAve View Post

          "Marketing 101" what year ? Since 2010, I have rarely looked or made a decision on reviews maybe the occasional hotel, and as far as these cartels "mastermind groups" I cannot tell you how many times I have been approached for consulting at conferences and they lead with I am in xxx Mastermind group and I immediately shut down... As in my previous post reviews are important but feel most educated buyers today take them with a grain of salt or much less.
          Whether YOU look at, or make decisions based on reviews is totally immaterial.

          The fact remains that consumers the world over DO pay attention to reviews and the more favorable reviews they are exposed to... the more they believe them.

          That's why Amazon features both those and rating systems on their site. They aren't alone. Facebook shows "Likes". TV commercials the world over are essentially "testimonials" supposedly by people who have used the product (not real, but they impact the consumer, nonetheless).

          Testimonials in the WSO section are for the same purpose. They probably aren't as effective for more seasoned marketers, but then... how many products have you seen advertised there that were really geared toward more seasoned marketers?

          Products in the WSO marketplace target primarily information hungry "noobs", simply because they represent the largest segment of the IM market, and the WF is currently the largest IM centric forum. Ever hear the phrase "Advertise where your target market hangs out"?
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          • Profile picture of the author 9AppAve
            Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

            Whether YOU look at, or make decisions based on reviews is totally immaterial.

            The fact remains that consumers the world over DO pay attention to reviews and the more favorable reviews they are exposed to... the more they believe them.

            That's why Amazon features both those and rating systems on their site. They aren't alone. Facebook shows "Likes". TV commercials the world over are essentially "testimonials" supposedly by people who have used the product (not real, but they impact the consumer, nonetheless).

            Testimonials in the WSO section are for the same purpose. They probably aren't as effective for more seasoned marketers, but then... how many products have you seen advertised there that were really geared toward more seasoned marketers?

            Products in the WSO marketplace target primarily information hungry "noobs", simply because they represent the largest segment of the IM market, and the WF is currently the largest IM centric forum. Ever hear the phrase "Advertise where your target market hangs out"?

            Totally agree,

            My point in my original post, I guess after reading Tim's post he basically said the same thing,
            if the product has merit and is not recycled junk it will sell in the WSO section without a lot of reviews...

            And as far as what I have sold, only one... Definitely have seasoned "marketers" most have a client base in place.

            I also believe the consumers on this forum are no less educated then the general consumer and in some ways more apprehensive...

            The OP post was about the over use of reviews not the lack thereof... Point being a product on this forum, in the WSO section should be valued on the amount of the reviews necessarily, I think comparing Amazon, Facebook etc to the WSO section of WF is irrelevant in scope...
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            • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
              Sure I did.

              Originally Posted by 9AppAve View Post

              Not only did you not address the op you did not read my initial response :-) No worries for the most part we agree...
              I don't think we totally agree.
              Originally Posted by 9AppAve View Post

              Totally agree,
              The fake reviews, we can certainly do without - and those who suffer from SNO would certainly be better served.

              I do believe that honest reviews can make a big difference in the level of sales for almost any WSO. Apparently, most WSO sellers agree, and many will resort to pretty outlandish measures to get reviews posted.

              I do agree that the sales post should spell out the benefits of the product, and I don't have a big problem with a few of the Warrior reviews being "re-published in that main post... but some don't know where to draw the line.

              <snip>

              Couldn't pass this one up...
              I also believe the consumers on this forum are no less educated then the general consumer and in some ways more apprehensive...
              Often, they are also no better educated.
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              • Profile picture of the author 9AppAve
                Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

                Sure I did.



                I don't think we totally agree.


                The fake reviews, we can certainly do without - and those who suffer from SNO would certainly be better served.

                I do believe that honest reviews can make a big difference in the level of sales for almost any WSO. Apparently, most WSO sellers agree, and many will resort to pretty outlandish measures to get reviews posted.

                I do agree that the sales post should spell out the benefits of the product, and I don't have a big problem with a few of the Warrior reviews being "re-published in that main post... but some don't know where to draw the line.

                <snip>

                Couldn't pass this one up...


                Often, they are also no better educated.
                See Sid,

                We do agree, Im in with everything you say above... As far as "Often, they are also no better educated" LOL i am neutral on this response, as I have only sold one product on this forum. (I Also understand the English Dig)

                However upwards of 95% of my sales in the WSO section have been established businesse's with current client base, established web designers, seo firms, small hosting companies etc... Could be the product is $99.95 a month which seems to be noob repellant, also could be its offline in nature, not sure, but members who do buy are not "noob's, simply because they represent the largest segment of the IM market getting taken advantage of..."

                I do appreciate your feedback...
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              • Hi Warriors

                Just been reading through the most recent comments and see quite a few really good suggestions.

                The ones that we really like are as follows:-

                Letting everyone know the core rules - "Reviews must be of the product, not the seller nor the seller's previous products."

                "Warrior "Special Offer" - A product already being sold is offered to warriors at a special price. Back when that was the basic rule, WSO's did not need outside promotion to sell".

                "Note: This thread should be REQUIRED reading for any newbie ......BEFORE be allowed into the WSO section! Give the new lamb at least some advanced warning.....all is not what it seems".


                Keep posting comments as this is getting some valuable info that all Warriors should read.

                Regards

                Bronwyn and Keith
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        • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
          Originally Posted by 9AppAve View Post

          "Marketing 101" what year ? .
          2015. Come on.

          You know why so many auto review websites exist? So many hand out awards? So car companies can say their car received a 5 star review and the small sedan, convertible, diesel category car of the year award.

          You know why car companies show actual buyers talking about their vehicles in commercials?

          If you don't buy a car without checking out reviews, both "professional" and from actual buyers ... um, that's on you. The rest of world uses reviews. That's why you see them on umpteen zillion websites, from Amazon to mom and pop, including Warrior Payments.

          The "advantage" (or it can be a disadvantage) to having offers on a forum is so that buyers get the product and come back and give everyone their review. That way other Warriors know whether to buy or stay away.

          The challenge is getting the mods to keep, say, your review about a product and getting rid of the phony shills.

          But again, if you don't use reviews to buy anything in your life, never ask advice from anyone, never get a trusted suggestion ... what can anyone say. Do you have kids and give them advice? One of the reasons for a discussion forum is to get what "amounts to reviews" about what to do, what not to do, who to use, who not to use, why and why not, what alternatives exist, and so on.

          Ironically, on your WSO you include a form of "reviews" via what small business owners think about apps.

          And there was this post you made on your WSO thread:

          TheGreyling, Thanks for the kind words and Review....
          .

          You got a good review and it will help you make sales.

          Marketing 102: It really doesn't matter what you think. If reviews help others make a buying decision, and thus help you make more money, use them. You do.

          most educated buyers today take them with a grain of salt or much less.
          I think the point is that using reviews is one way for a buy to become educated.

          .
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          • Profile picture of the author 9AppAve
            Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

            2015. Come on.

            You know why so many auto review websites exist? So many hand out out awards? So car companies can say their car received the small sedan, convertible, diesel category car of the year award.

            You know why car companies show actual buyers talking about their vehicles in commercials?

            If you don't buy a car without checking out reviews, both "professional" and from actual buyers ... um, that's on you. The rest of world uses reviews. That's why you seem them on umpteen zillion websites, from Amazon to mom and pop, including Warrior Payments.

            The "advantage" (or it can be a disadvantage) to having offers on a forum is so that buyers get the product and come back and give everyone their review. That way other Warriors know whether to buy or stay away.

            The challenge is getting the mods to keep, say, your review about a product and getting rid of the phony shills.

            But again, if you don't use reviews to buy anything in your life, never ask advice from anyone, never get a trusted suggestion ... what can anyone say. Seems lonely. Do you kids and given them advice? Why are you even here? One of the reasons for a discussion forum is to get what "amounts to reviews" about what to do, what not to do, who to use, who not to use, why and why not, what alternatives exist, and so on.

            Ironically, on your WSO you include a form of "reviews" via what small business owners think about apps.

            And there was this post you made on your WSO thread:

            You got a good review and it will help you make sales.

            Marketing 102: It really doesn't matter what you think. If reviews help others make a buying decision, and thus help you make more money, use them. You do.

            .
            Not saying this at all, I do believe reviews are HUGE to most, I was referencing my experience in the WSO section, Yes of coarse I read reviews, ( probably way less then most ) as I realize how they are often fabricated. I purchased a new Land Rover, Range Rover in 2007, reviews were awful, loved that SUV. Went to a hotel in Vanderbilt Beach in Naples Beach, FL last year, reviews were incredible, my wife used the stock hair dryer in the room and a 1.5 inch roach crawled in her hair... The second big roach we seen that day in the highly reviewed room / hotel.

            These examples are obviously extremes, I could give many more examples in that 7 year period.

            Again I am not anti-review, I just think on the Original OP topic they are less relevant and definitely over used as a primary buying decision...

            I also mentioned in my initial post that our WSO has 5 reviews... Also this thread is about the irrelevancy of reviews in this forum as it pertains to the WSO section. I do not believe I am super off topic or in left field as it pertains to the thread in its entirety.

            My point is i rarely use them as a primary buying decision, however I am sure people do.
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      • Profile picture of the author Teravel
        Originally Posted by kibebe7 View Post

        I honestly think that there is a thin line on this. If I have a group of internet marketing friends and update them anytime I launch a product/book..etc, they are bound by both friendship and future business interests to buy my book/product and give a good review on the same. And if they do this for me, I will definitely have no choice but to return the favor when their products are out. Is this really wrong?
        I honestly think that if your friends cared about your business, they would want you to see long term success. From the sounds of the comment above, your friends aren't really your friends, or they have little to no business management experience. In both cases, you shouldn't be taking their advice, or their biased reviews.

        Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

        What? Wow.

        This is horse pucky and I'm surprised to see it on a marketing forum.

        Reviews are powerful and should be used.
        At this point in your comment, I would like to point out that the post you are referring to Does Not suggest 'not using reviews'. They said "They don't belong on the Sales Page".

        Tim, if you give a positive review of one of my products, and I'm mailing to your friends, your review is going to be front and center at the top of my letter, even before a headline. It would be foolish not to use it, or to bury it at the end of a letter.

        Reviews from actual third party users talking about a product can be much more useful and informative than the seller saying the same thing in sales copy.

        This is marketing 101.
        I don't agree at all. In fact, I believe Transparency is Marketing 101.

        Why?
        If you have a good product, it can be a success without reviews.
        If you have an absolute abhorrent product, no amount of fake reviews will save it from it's eventual doom.

        Reviews should be used to help potential buyers that are on the edge of pulling out their credit cards. They shouldn't be used as the main sales content for your product.

        I have yet to see a product worth buying that had reviews as it's source of sales content. Most of those products are inflated shit, wrapped in glitter, and tied with a bow. All to look pretty and appealing, when in reality the seller just wants to make a quick buck.
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        • Profile picture of the author 9AppAve
          Originally Posted by Teravel View Post

          I honestly think that if your friends cared about your business, they would want you to see long term success. From the sounds of the comment above, your friends aren't really your friends, or they have little to no business management experience. In both cases, you shouldn't be taking their advice, or their biased reviews.



          At this point in your comment, I would like to point out that the post you are referring to Does Not suggest 'not using reviews'. They said "They don't belong on the Sales Page".



          I don't agree at all. In fact, I believe Transparency is Marketing 101.

          Why?
          If you have a good product, it can be a success without reviews.
          If you have an absolute abhorrent product, no amount of fake reviews will save it from it's eventual doom.

          Reviews should be used to help potential buyers that are on the edge of pulling out their credit cards. They shouldn't be used as the main sales content for your product.

          I have yet to see a product worth buying that had reviews as it's source of sales content. Most of those products are inflated shit, wrapped in glitter, and tied with a bow. All to look pretty and appealing, when in reality the seller just wants to make a quick buck.
          This, was my over point, I believe you have articulated it more than I have...
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  • Profile picture of the author Bob Reynolds
    Nice thread, I am in a situation to where for the last 18 months, 12 months after hiring my first coach to help me build my list, I am at a point of finally getting my first product done.

    About half way through with my first coach, when I was not able to get any real help with a convertible funnel, and derailment from wso's because the skill of the coach really wasn't there... I changed up my plan, so I have been struggling on my own, coming here getting great and valuable knowledge from the people here, buying specific products and tools focused on building my list and producing my own products...

    At the beginning of this month I was able to get some great help from a new coach, and group. Now I have not been there long enough to witness any false reviews, however I know that I have been busting my buns for the last month trying to bring together something of real value to this forum, and to the industry.

    It is based on what I have learned this last year and a half, and what would have helped me get here faster, and less financial losses. Now I am worried to even bring the product out in two days because this thread is letting me see that I could have joined up with a good ole boys club that is pouring in quality products and giving good reviews to them, and its not right because they are in groups together ... that is confusing as pigs flying...

    I can see how it can get abused. so what happens to a group of hard working and hard teaching coaches that do succeed in slamming out a bunch of quality products... and students.. danggg...

    so the point could be taken, dont hire to good of a coach if he is teaching to many students and becomes to popular... eegads... I truly am... stumped.. kinda make your heart sink a little, thanks for the education...
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      so what happens to a group of hard working and hard teaching coaches that do succeed in slamming out a bunch of quality products
      I think you are misunderstanding the message. I'm still a bit amazed we've reached the point on the WF where there is specialized coaching on "how to create WSOs". I realize it's reality now and not all the coaching is about producing "good" products.

      With or without a coach - with or without a group - if you launch a quality product no one has a problem with that.

      When groups organize to promote each others products here you can end up with ten WSOs and the same 10 people posting positive reviews of the other 9 products from their group.

      It's always happened to some extent among friends here - but recently it's been blatantly obvious and I think that's what leads to the complaint.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Hess
      Originally Posted by Bob Reynolds View Post

      Now I am worried to even bring the product out in two days because this thread is letting me see that I could have joined up with a good ole boys club that is pouring in quality products and giving good reviews to them, and its not right because they are in groups together ... that is confusing as pigs flying...

      I can see how it can get abused. so what happens to a group of hard working and hard teaching coaches that do succeed in slamming out a bunch of quality products... and students.. danggg...
      Bob, there's nothing wrong with building relationships, being in groups, networking, and engaging in reciprocation, That's how people get ahead.

      Here, on the forum, it's different than on a regular sales page. Real time reviews play a big role in the purchasing decision. That's why disclosure is important.

      It's one thing to mail your list and tell them about the offer someone else in your group puts out there and give a review in the thread.

      Just make sure to disclose the fact that you're an affiliate, even saying something like "I plan on telling my list about this" is ok and if you received a copy ahead of time, say that as well.

      Where it becomes shady (and breaking forum rules) is when all the people in the group don't disclose anything and make it seem like they all just happened to randomly stumble onto a pot of gold.

      Also, just a quick tip on these types of groups...

      - You will be expected to reciprocate. So any junk that gets created by members in the group (trust me, they are not all quality products like you said, there's actually very few) you will need to support the other members launches. Basically, you're going to be "selling out" a lot so you can enjoy continued support on your launches.

      - The well runs dry with this sort of WSO selling group. Since you all have the same customers on your lists, eventually, they stop buying the whole "my friend just released this..." after being burned too many times by the group as a whole. (this may take some time, but it will get there)
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    • Profile picture of the author Freebiequeen1999
      Originally Posted by Bob Reynolds View Post

      Nice thread, I am in a situation to where for the last 18 months, 12 months after hiring my first coach to help me build my list, I am at a point of finally getting my first product done.

      About half way through with my first coach, when I was not able to get any real help with a convertible funnel, and derailment from wso's because the skill of the coach really wasn't there... I changed up my plan, so I have been struggling on my own, coming here getting great and valuable knowledge from the people here, buying specific products and tools focused on building my list and producing my own products...

      At the beginning of this month I was able to get some great help from a new coach, and group. Now I have not been there long enough to witness any false reviews, however I know that I have been busting my buns for the last month trying to bring together something of real value to this forum, and to the industry.

      It is based on what I have learned this last year and a half, and what would have helped me get here faster, and less financial losses. Now I am worried to even bring the product out in two days because this thread is letting me see that I could have joined up with a good ole boys club that is pouring in quality products and giving good reviews to them, and its not right because they are in groups together ... that is confusing as pigs flying...

      I can see how it can get abused. so what happens to a group of hard working and hard teaching coaches that do succeed in slamming out a bunch of quality products... and students.. danggg...

      so the point could be taken, dont hire to good of a coach if he is teaching to many students and becomes to popular... eegads... I truly am... stumped.. kinda make your heart sink a little, thanks for the education...

      I am really curious as to why you think you have the experience or knowledge to write a "wso:? have you actually made money yet or do you plan to only make money from the sale of the wso?


      I think there are some (some) wso that offer real products....software, videos, flyers and promo material you could use...or a real plan (that 9x12 and the internet agency ones are run by people actually making money at it)


      but your wso seems to be "how to find a good coach to coach you how to write a wso"


      right? wrong?
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      • Hi

        It's an interesting point but some of the most honest and open WSO's that we have bought over the past 10+ years were from "newbies" who did a "case study" of what they had found out.

        Often they were done in video format which suited us perfectly.

        No cartels were involved as in most cases they made few sales. But they literally kick started an online career.

        In fact we could (but won't) name at least a dozen well regarded Warriors who started this way.


        Regards

        Bronwyn and Keith
        Originally Posted by Freebiequeen1999 View Post

        I am really curious as to why you think you have the experience or knowledge to write a "wso:? have you actually made money yet or do you plan to only make money from the sale of the wso?


        I think there are some (some) wso that offer real products....software, videos, flyers and promo material you could use...or a real plan (that 9x12 and the internet agency ones are run by people actually making money at it)


        but your wso seems to be "how to find a good coach to coach you how to write a wso"


        right? wrong?
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  • Profile picture of the author Valdor Kiebach
    This new rule may go some way to reduce the amount of 'I know xx and his products rock' or ' I bought one of xxx's products before and I must say he knows his stuff' type posts in a WSO:
    Rule #4: Reviewing a WSO

    ...
    - Reviews must be of the product, not the seller nor the seller’s previous products.
    ...
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  • Profile picture of the author benjamenjuan
    they are just reaping the benefits of networking haha. everyone should do it, we should all help each other. I dont care if its disclosed that sounds fair to me but frankly the reason they do that here is because they do that outside the forum, too.

    It's called helping each other. I do it, have never done it here, but does that make me part of some evil cartel haha
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    Are they cartels or virtual Chambers of Commerce?

    -Ray Edwards
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  • Profile picture of the author joeysbusiness
    Its been going on for awhile now. It cheapens the warrior forum and makes "Testimonials" worthless.

    Its a joke. Each "product" at $7 ( hmmmm wonder if theres a backend? lol )

    For someone new its almost impossible to read between the lines. Obviously its being taught in some ...eh hem..."high level" mastermind group. The point is to sell products obviously....which is a good thing.....but the integrity is gone, any trust has been whittled away. The only solution is to
    STOP buying WSO's ....at least from those groups. You cannot trust a "trusted warrior" ...lol....anymore. I dared mention this in a thread last year ....and it was deleated!!!

    For myself I stopped buying from a certain group.....the names are interchangeable....
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  • Profile picture of the author joeysbusiness
    Note: This thread should be REQUIRED reading for any newbie ......BEFORE be allowed into the WSO section! Give the new lamb at least some advanced warning.....all is not what it seems.
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    To put things in perspective.

    Most wso's that launch fail. We can all see the stats in whatever marketplace. People with launch power that is -affiliates and their own list. they succeed for obvious reasons. Sadly out with the bad also took out a lot of good people.

    Teaching people to do wso's so they get excited because they made 10, 20, 30, sales
    is awesome, it helps show you can, in fact make money and you learn the essentials. But the product is supposed to be publicly available and offered at a lower cost special deal for the warrior forum, it is called exclusivity.


    However, a wso is not supposed to be a product firstly created to launch on the forum.

    The coaching seems to involve offering coaching on your own product....
    It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out this is not good.

    Especially when most don't have the first clue about marketing itself. The wso section is no gem, the more people continue to conduct themselves this way the more it will become an unviable solution.

    Your own reputation can be tainted by it.
    Having affiliates is the lifeblood of most any launch.

    Even OP Says as much

    But, there are a lot who just burn their bridges because they don't test things. At least Bret Rutecky will go through it and review yay or nay.
    So (sorry Bret) if Bret sent an email out saying o.k. guys it has just launched it is so awesome, I can't even believe they are releasing it, grab the early bird price and I am giving 10k in bonuses if you click and buy through my link.

    Blindly.

    how quickly do you think I or any one else would trust him if it was crap? I and a lot of others would be gone. Bret is actually one of the only lists I am on myself. mainly for the reasons I stated previous. He actually will even try and help the person he reviewed for, he gives them an opportunity to make things right before launch and if they don't review goes out and they lose a lot of sales and so does he.

    You have your own reputation at stake and that seems to be completely tossed out for the little tiny, tiny bit of cash.

    If all you can do is create a wso to sell, you are not really learning anything at all.
    Sell at 5-7 bucks to get them in the funnel and then hit them with backend offers. we all know how the game is played. Just play by the rules.



    -WD
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    • Profile picture of the author joeysbusiness
      Originally Posted by WD Mino View Post

      lower cost special deal for the warrior forum, it is called exclusivity.


      However, a wso is not supposed to be a product firstly created to launch on the forum.

      The coaching seems to involve offering coaching on your own product....
      It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out this is not good.

      Especially when most don't have the first clue about marketing itself. The wso section is no gem, the more people continue to conduct themselves this way the more it will become an unviable solution.

      Your own reputation can be tainted by it.

      You have your own reputation at stake and that seems to be completely tossed out for the little tiny, tiny bit of cash.

      If all you can do is create a wso to sell, you are not really learning anything at all.
      Sell at 5-7 bucks to get them in the funnel and then hit them with backend offers. we all know how the game is played. Just play by the rules.



      -WD
      thankyou....nice post

      the problem is these $7 wso are usually such general information ...or ...if not general they require much more expertese than the "marketing piece" implied ( or outright lied)

      WHY is it deemed acceptable to mislead, lie, and misrepresent in the marketing ?
      and some "trusted warrior" issues a glowing testimonial about how great the offerer is
      and how the WSO they offered years ago was terrific? BFD .... I say ...

      Sad to say ....many times I studied a WSO I just purchased and had to go back to the MARKETING in the WSO to see if it was the same thing I bought.....and like Jerry Seinfeld I thought to myself ....no no no no....i dont want the one I received....I WANT THAT ONE (the one in the described in the marketing) ....sad state of affairs...

      only solution: STOP buying
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  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    Originally Posted by Bronwyn and Keith View Post

    Hi Warriors

    Is it just us or is a serious pattern emerging in WSO's whereby the same 'Group" of people keep saying nice things about someone's product.

    Then a week later they launch their own WSO and lo and behold the same mug shots pop up again - often with the same or similar lame comment!!!

    Our take on it is that some of the "Coaches" are the catalysts for the cluster groups "sticking together like glue"...

    Thoughts anyone???

    Regards

    Bronwyn and Keith
    It's actually way down from what it was back in 08, 09...
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  • Profile picture of the author Rob Whisonant
    In my opinion the only way the WSO is going to survive in the long run is to bring back the original rules.

    Warrior "Special Offer" - A product already being sold is offered to warriors at a special price.

    Back when that was the basic rule, WSO's did not need outside promotion to sell.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Re's
    Rob Whisonant
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    • Profile picture of the author 9AppAve
      Originally Posted by Rob Whisonant View Post

      In my opinion the only way the WSO is going to survive in the long run is to bring back the original rules.

      Warrior "Special Offer" - A product already being sold is offered to warriors at a special price.

      Back when that was the basic rule, WSO's did not need outside promotion to sell.

      Just my 2 cents.

      Re's
      Rob Whisonant
      This, quote above ....... My WSO only has around 100 comments, maybe 5 reviews (all organic), without giving away the house, the sales are nearly 17x's the reviews, plus it's really expensive compared to most of the crap that is in there at 99.95 a month...

      Point being, if the product has real value, the product will sell, most see through the review scandal... Also if my WSO relied on reviews it would have failed months ago :-) Most, in our case, do not ask a question, read a review, just click buy now... I guarantee this is the case for most succesful WSO's. Not that questions or reviews are a bad thing but if the value is there generally people will act.. In most cases "questions are objections" and reviews are generally meaningless ....

      I feel this point is informative to both buyers and sellers....
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    Mark says:
    <snip>- - You will be expected to reciprocate. So any junk that gets created by members in the group (trust me, they are not all quality products like you said, there's actually very few) you will need to support the other members launches. Basically, you're going to be "selling out" a lot so you can enjoy continued support on your launches.

    The well runs dry with this sort of WSO selling group. Since you all have the same customers on your lists, eventually, they stop buying the whole "my friend just released this..." after being burned too many times by the group as a whole. (this may take some time, but it will get there)
    <snip>
    This is not guessing either this is what we know, none of this is new.
    But it is nonetheless a bad thing. Transparency is probably the biggest thing needed imo

    -WD
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  • Profile picture of the author Lightlysalted
    Happens regularly, I don't have a major issue.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rob Whisonant
    The WSO section is no longer special offers for warriors. Maybe it's time they rename it to Warrior For Sale Forum, since that is all it is now.

    The way the WSO forum section is named now is actually deceptive and no longer true. Lets bring back truth in advertising.

    How about a name change Freelancer? Since the apparent purpose of the WSO section has morphed into something totally different, shouldn't the name of the section also morph to what it truly is now?

    Re's
    Rob Whisonant
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    Which is why OP made the thread. Because of that very thing. Sid

    Nice to see you Sid, Happy 2015

    Best,
    -Wd
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    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      Originally Posted by WD Mino View Post

      Which is why OP made the thread. Because of that very thing. Sid
      Yep. Understood.

      My response specifically addressed the quoted reply... NOT the OP.
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      • Profile picture of the author 9AppAve
        Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

        Yep. Understood.

        My response specifically addressed the quoted reply... NOT the OP.
        Not only did you not address the op you did not read my initial response :-) No worries for the most part we agree...
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  • Profile picture of the author mlpauling
    Coaching groups and masterminds use this as one of their selling points.
    Their opinions maybe bias or maybe not completely honest, but at least
    they are not buying testimonials on fivrr!
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  • Profile picture of the author Ghoster
    I honestly think that there is a thin line on this. If I have a group of internet marketing friends and update them anytime I launch a product/book..etc, they are bound by both friendship and future business interests to buy my book/product and give a good review on the same.
    What universe is this guy living in? Friends aren't bound by anyone to do anything. I suspect trolling, but if not...wow.

    Getting your "friends" to give you fake positive reviews is lame. Period.
    Signature

    On the whole, you get what you pay for.

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    • Hi Ghoster

      Its also a really good way to lose friends fast....


      Regards

      Bronwyn and Keith
      Originally Posted by Ghoster View Post

      What universe is this guy living in? Friends aren't bound by anyone to do anything. I suspect trolling, but if not...wow.

      Getting your "friends" to give you fake positive reviews is lame. Period.
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  • Profile picture of the author Moneymaker360
    I love doing review copies, but I am against seeing the same people review for the same product creators and seeing them do it all together on each of their products. I hope this forum continues to change and grow.
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  • Profile picture of the author RyanLB
    I don't follow the WSO's here on WF. I've always kind of felt that the whole system was ridiculous. A lot of "information marketers" selling information to other information marketers. Don't me wrong there are plenty of legitimate products being sold through the WSO forum - but for every legitimate product there are 10 using false claims, false time or supply constraints and other shady marketing tactics to sell their product.

    The "cartel" mindset is always going to be there. Any similar system online, and there are reputation boosting rings set up to game it.

    Taking steps to discourage it will help, but you'll never eliminate.

    I think they would be better served continuing to try to clean up the sales pages.
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    • Hi Ryan

      The only problem is that instead of adding the bogus reviews to the thread they add them to the sales page.

      Because they are done with "pretty graphics" and because more than 50% of people are visual more people will unfortunately think they are kosher.

      So, maybe you are right - cleaning up the sales pages would be a good start and only allow reviews from people who have actually used the product would also help.


      Regards

      Bronwyn and Keith.
      Originally Posted by RyanLB View Post

      I don't follow the WSO's here on WF. I've always kind of felt that the whole system was ridiculous. A lot of "information marketers" selling information to other information marketers. Don't me wrong there are plenty of legitimate products being sold through the WSO forum - but for every legitimate product there are 10 using false claims, false time or supply constraints and other shady marketing tactics to sell their product.

      The "cartel" mindset is always going to be there. Any similar system online, and there are reputation boosting rings set up to game it.

      Taking steps to discourage it will help, but you'll never eliminate.

      I think they would be better served continuing to try to clean up the sales pages.
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      • Profile picture of the author kilgore
        Fixing something like this really isn't rocket science. You write a program that does some network analysis in order to find out which "reviewers" are just reviewing each other's products; perhaps then you add a few rules to prevent (or at least detect) people from creating fake accounts in order to leave fake reviews. Problem solved, perhaps not 100%, but pretty close anyway.

        The fact that this hasn't been fixed suggest to me that either the WF doesn't care about the problem or perhaps it even is purposely turning a blind eye in order to increase it's cut of the sales. If this is the case, this is pretty short-sighted because as every successful marketer knows earning trust is essential to maximizing your sales. Fake reviews obviously undermine that trust, both for the WSO sellers and for the WF as a whole.
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        • Profile picture of the author Ghoster
          perhaps then you add a few rules to prevent (or at least detect) people from creating fake accounts in order to leave fake reviews.
          Have you never heard of a VPN? What you just described is impossible.
          Signature

          On the whole, you get what you pay for.

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          • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
            Banned
            Originally Posted by kilgore View Post

            perhaps then you add a few rules to prevent (or at least detect) people from creating fake accounts in order to leave fake reviews.
            Originally Posted by Ghoster View Post

            Have you never heard of a VPN? What you just described is impossible.
            They could allow only verified reviews (purchasers) when the Warrior Payments system is used to list the product, in-fact this idea has been considered by Alaister. Sure it only covers those that use WP, but it's an idea worthy of consideration.

            Cheers

            -don
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            • Profile picture of the author John_3771
              Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

              They could allow only verified reviews (purchasers) when the Warrior Payments system is used to list the product, in-fact this idea has been considered by Alaister. Sure it only covers those that use WP, but it's an idea worthy of consideration.

              Cheers

              -don
              Bingo, I think that would help clear up some of this mess.
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            • Hi Don

              Agree with the sentiment but what we are seeing lately is the cartel are in fact "buying" each others stuff.

              Logically this is for 2 reasons:-

              1) So they can say that they bought it
              2) to inflate the real sales numbers.

              All in all it's just more covert sh*t....

              Regards

              Bronwyn and Keith
              Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

              They could allow only verified reviews (purchasers) when the Warrior Payments system is used to list the product, in-fact this idea has been considered by Alaister. Sure it only covers those that use WP, but it's an idea worthy of consideration.

              Cheers

              -don
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              • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Bronwyn and Keith View Post

                Hi Don

                Agree with the sentiment but what we are seeing lately is the cartel are in fact "buying" each others stuff.

                Logically this is for 2 reasons:-

                1) So they can say that they bought it
                2) to inflate the real sales numbers.

                All in all it's just more covert sh*t....

                Regards

                Bronwyn and Keith
                Oh yeah, I know this, and I have been seeing this and worse since being a member here. Unfortunately, it's the nature of this beast.

                Cheers

                -don
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                • Hi Don

                  Yeah figured that you would already know but wanted to alert the masses to the situation so that they could start looking for the bogus WSO's too.


                  Regards

                  Bronwyn and Keith
                  Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

                  Oh yeah, I know this, and I have been seeing this and worse since being a member here. Unfortunately, it's the nature of this beast.

                  Cheers

                  -don
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              • Profile picture of the author joeysbusiness
                Originally Posted by Bronwyn and Keith View Post

                Hi Don

                Agree with the sentiment but what we are seeing lately is the cartel are in fact "buying" each others stuff.

                Logically this is for 2 reasons:-

                1) So they can say that they bought it
                2) to inflate the real sales numbers.

                All in all it's just more covert sh*t....

                Regards

                Bronwyn and Keith
                EXACTLY ......and priced at $7.77 or $7 or $5.95 .....its just a "cost of doing business" for them. Its unethical and leads to even MORE SH*T products.....that tell you how EASY it is to produce a WSO and "clean up".

                These products should come with a warning label: Please be aware that this $7 product
                is for informational purposes only. If you actually want to take action you either must have years of expience or you must purchase the OTO for $37 and if you really want to have a
                chance in hell of success we have a "coaching program" for $97 or $147 or maybe after you decline three times $67.

                Now THAT would be ethical and fair for most of these products


                For myself ....Id rather purchase a "true WSO" .....you know the original intent of a discount that could ONLY be obtained here!

                Id rather pay $37 or $47 or more for a legit WSO that tells me upfront whats required
                to make the damn thing work!

                It used to be that the WF was a refuge from clickbank crap .....

                now its BECOME worse....

                clean it up ....

                or expire
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                • Hi Joey

                  Absolutely - you nailed it.

                  It isn't just a cost of doing business as it comes back to them once they launch their own product - so to them it is more of an "investment" that reaps ongoing rewards for crappy WSO's.

                  Regards

                  Bronwyn and Keith
                  Originally Posted by joeysbusiness View Post

                  EXACTLY ......and priced at $7.77 or $7 or $5.95 .....its just a "cost of doing business" for them. Its unethical and leads to even MORE SH*T products.....that tell you how EASY it is to produce a WSO and "clean up".

                  These products should come with a warning label: Please be aware that this $7 product
                  is for informational purposes only. If you actually want to take action you either must have years of expience or you must purchase the OTO for $37 and if you really want to have a
                  chance in hell of success we have a "coaching program" for $97 or $147 or maybe after you decline three times $67.

                  Now THAT would be ethical and fair for most of these products


                  For myself ....Id rather purchase a "true WSO" .....you know the original intent of a discount that could ONLY be obtained here!

                  Id rather pay $37 or $47 or more for a legit WSO that tells me upfront whats required
                  to make the damn thing work!

                  It used to be that the WF was a refuge from clickbank crap .....

                  now its BECOME worse....

                  clean it up ....

                  or expire
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            • Profile picture of the author Ghoster
              Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

              They could allow only verified reviews (purchasers) when the Warrior Payments system is used to list the product, in-fact this idea has been considered by Alaister. Sure it only covers those that use WP, but it's an idea worthy of consideration.

              Cheers

              -don
              This doesn't work. Ask Amazon.

              People will just go to blackhat forums where they will pay someone for a review. They also send the $$ for the WSO so the person can buy it.

              This is why Amazon reviews are worthless now, and why "Verified Review" is a joke.

              Now, maybe the guy would be worried about his work ending right back up on the blackhat forum, but there's nothing stopping him from forming a backrub group that does the above, either.
              Signature

              On the whole, you get what you pay for.

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              • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Ghoster View Post

                This doesn't work. Ask Amazon.

                People will just go to blackhat forums where they will pay someone for a review. They also send the $$ for the WSO so the person can buy it.

                This is why Amazon reviews are worthless now, and why "Verified Review" is a joke.

                Now, maybe the guy would be worried about his work ending right back up on the blackhat forum, but there's nothing stopping him from forming a backrub group that does the above, either.
                It might work a bit better than nothing at all...and, FWIW, I do find some value in Amazon reviews. I weigh them all (or at least the relatively recent ones) along with other reviews and input and make my decision(s) accordingly.

                Anyway, you can tell tell Alaister your thoughts on this here:

                http://www.warriorforum.com/suggesti...ml#post9795947

                Cheers

                -don
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  • Profile picture of the author mtntgr
    i call them "The Usual Suspects"

    where it gets bad/abusive is when they're promoting crap (each others)

    what's really laughable is when you see a whole bunch of people with zero stats promoting another unknown (too often a scammer)

    it's abusive but then this is the Wild West*

    *just this month a South American "SEO Agency" ran off with a bunch of warrior's money
    (it's being hashed out with PayPal, etc... now)

    and it was promoted by at least one respected warrior!
    no apologies as of yet...
    Signature

    opportunityisnowhere

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    • Hi

      Love the reference to the Usual Suspects and good old Keyser Söze - It's actually one of our favorite movies.

      But we still dislike the process that they use.

      Regards

      Bronwyn and Keith
      Originally Posted by mtntgr View Post

      i call them "The Usual Suspects"

      where it gets bad/abusive is when they're promoting crap (each others)

      what's really laughable is when you see a whole bunch of people with zero stats promoting another unknown (too often a scammer)

      it's abusive but then this is the Wild West*


      *just this month a South American "SEO Agency" ran off with a bunch of warrior's money
      (it's being hashed out with PayPal, etc... now)

      and it was promoted by at least one respected warrior!
      no apologies as of yet...
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  • Profile picture of the author User-Name
    It is completely out of hand
    I buy many wso`s as I will on average learn one thing
    Having looked at most wsos I am seeing very obvious patterns.
    Also people with a list will post what a great wso then rip of an email to their list (they never looked at it)
    One wso has 3 bonus products and the wso has reviews from the bonus product suppliers.
    Eventually that part of the forum will lose all credibility and it was once a great resource
    Thanks Bronwyn and Keith for bringing this up
    Andrew
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  • Profile picture of the author User-Name
    Part 2 a review of wsos from a wso buyer

    I love it when a reputable forum member reviews a product as great then the product is found out to be rubbish or the product was ripped from somewhere else.
    When a wso is listed that will not work without the upsell.
    When a thread says something about your search stops then when you buy it the seller has released 9 previous wsos (if any of them worked why would I need the other 8 wso?)
    Reviews like this wso is brilliant I will recommend it to my list (how is that ever a review?)

    Sad for the newbie
    Sad for the product creator who produces a quality product
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  • Profile picture of the author davidbowie
    Hmm, can I bundle this thread and launch it as a WSO? I have been a member here for awhile and the WSO part of it is why I left. I rarely look at wso`s for all the reasons stated above. I`ve learned a long time ago that for my business, 100% honesty is my rule and there is no thin line.

    I`m also in a position that money is not a concern for me and never has been. Not sure if it`s still the same but years ago, I gave a bad review to a well known Guru ( a liar!) and got a pm from one of the mods saying I could not say that about him in public. She also went on to say that I was right but could not say so publicly on this forum.
    Signature
    I`m just here for the food!
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  • Dude, wake up and smell the coffee! Everything is a cartel, get use to it!
    Signature
    soon people... Relax...
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    well according to the ftc rules regarding testimonial that was last updated in 2009, most of the "reviews" and "testimonials" in the wso section are in fact illegal.

    FTC Publishes Final Guides Governing Endorsements, Testimonials | Federal Trade Commission

    one interesting thing most people who leave testimonials dont realize is that if you have "celebrity" status then you are also legal liable for damages your testimonial causes if you dont follow the laws.

    celebrity status is of course a bit vague in its definition, but clearly the product creators are soliciting reviews from people they think their audience views as "celebrities"

    i see this going very much the way the income claims go. at some point, i expect WF to force the use of their payment system so they can verify if the testimonial is from someone who purchased a copy or not.

    The law is pretty clear, you cant state untypical results without stating what a typical users result will be and you must state clearly any connection you have with the product owner... that includes review copies, affiliate relationships......

    the forum is directly breaking the law on this and has been for many years by allowing these sorts of testimonials with no way of checking all the relationships and purchases made by people who leave reviews/testimonials.

    again, i realize this stuff goes on all over the internet, but that doesnt make it legal. I fully expect that in time, it will be required to use the warrior payments / affiliate system so that WF can verify the relationships of testimonials. Pretty much the same thing they have done with income claims.
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  • Profile picture of the author pilot47
    I think that the when someone buys a product he will probably by more than one product from the same guy.

    I don't see the issue here, usually people buy more than one product from the same author.

    Or maybe I don't understand what you're trying to say.
    Signature

    Be grateful for everything you have.

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  • Profile picture of the author joeysbusiness
    There is NO THIN LINE. A "REVIEW" should not only be about the product in question.....but the review
    should be made by someone who actually BUYS the WSO and uses it! Novel approach?
    Most people are looking for a way to make money....using some method, technique, or to build an actual business......the purpose being to make a profit!! I cannot tell how many so called reviews GLOW with compliment about how great the guy is....his wso 4 years ago set the world on fire...etc etc ....and
    how this one SHOULD make money too. Im sorry thats not a review..... The backslapping ...Ill love your WSO if you love mine is not a exceptable model.
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  • Profile picture of the author mazzuca
    Yea know that already.. Agreed with you And Thanks for sharing this. We all know but sometime we forget this so,it will help to remind all of us further.
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  • Profile picture of the author M3C
    Ifonly that was the WSO's biggest issue..

    I really feel for newcomers hitting this site and falling for some of the twaddle espoused in the WSO section.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dorian Anthony
    This post couldn't have come at a more perfect time for me. I recently signed up to be coached for my first WSO(I've never created one before).

    This so called "coach" is running a review mill.

    He tells his students to find content off YouTube to put together an ebook. I get it, if you need to gather content that is an ok place to look and get ideas, but this guy gave no thought to what the buyer would be learning or if this stuff even worked. You should have seen the products some of his students were putting out...PURE JUNK. He even had a rule that new students should be nominated to post reviews on other student's threads, as to avoid the same people giving B.S. reviews all the time.

    I didn't feel comfortable with what was happening in the Facebook membership area. Basically members were making statements such as "hey, so and so, send me some thread love".

    I told the guy I wanted a refund because I thought what he was doing was unethical. At first he refused and gave me a big run around. After I told him I'd report him to WF moderators, he relented and refunded me.

    So YES, Bronwyn and Keith are exactly right, this type of thing is going on. It's going on as we speak.
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    • Hi Dorian

      Wow. We hope the mods see this post as it spells out "How it is being done" and really nails the who that we were talking about (certain coaches).

      The process of using other peoples content is not new and one of the biggest problems with that is the assumption that the information in the video that is being converted into an ebook is actually correct.

      The better process would be to test and measure.

      The "Thread Love Comment" is exactly what we and others have been saying - now we have your experience to refer to as well.

      Thanks for a very valuable post.

      Regards


      Bronwyn and Keith
      Originally Posted by Dorian Anthony View Post

      This post couldn't have come at a more perfect time for me. I recently signed up to be coached for my first WSO(I've never created one before).

      This so called "coach" is running a review mill.

      He tells his students to find content off YouTube to put together an ebook. I get it, if you need to gather content that is an ok place to look and get ideas, but this guy gave no thought to what the buyer would be learning or if this stuff even worked. You should have seen the products some of his students were putting out...PURE JUNK. He even had a rule that new students should be nominated to post reviews on other student's threads, as to avoid the same people giving B.S. reviews all the time.

      I didn't feel comfortable with what was happening in the Facebook membership area. Basically members were making statements such as "hey, so and so, send me some thread love".

      I told the guy I wanted a refund because I thought what he was doing was unethical. At first he refused and gave me a big run around. After I told him I'd report him to WF moderators, he relented and refunded me.

      So YES, Bronwyn and Keith are exactly right, this type of thing is going on. It's going on as we speak.
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    • Profile picture of the author M Thompson
      Originally Posted by Dorian Anthony View Post

      This so called "coach" is running a review mill.

      He tells his students to find content off YouTube to put together an ebook.
      This is nothing new, one of the big name marketers used to tell his students to Interview people here and create a wso from it!

      If you want to do sucessful wso's here is one way.

      a) create a good product with real proof..

      2) give 100% commissions and try to get JV's onboard

      3) don't expect to get rich, your only aim is to get some subscribers

      4) Give them value and prove that you have their best interests at heart.

      5) Do the same again , this time you will make money by selling to your subscribers.

      6) Do the same again etc..

      It takes time and it's not a quick option.

      You can probably make more money with a great product, great landing page and FB traffic.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I get it, if you need to gather content that is an ok place to look and get ideas, but this guy gave no thought to what the buyer would be learning or if this stuff even worked.
        We can bash this seller and I don't disagree with that. When you buy a WSO about "how to make WSOs" - what do you expect? If you don't already have experience or knowledge to SHARE in a product of your own - can someone really show you where to find it?

        I told the guy I wanted a refund because I thought what he was doing was unethical. At first he refused and gave me a big run around. After I told him I'd report him to WF moderators, he relented and refunded me.
        But - did you report him? You should have taken screen shots - gotten your refund - and then reported him to mods here.

        If you have specifics of what is "going on" and YOU don't report the details to mods so they can handle it - you are part of the problem. It doesn't matter what you paid or "who" it was - if you don't report it (to mods - not here) you condone it.
        Signature
        Every child needs a pet because every family needs an optimist

        Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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        • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
          O.k. so we have established the credibility of the problem, so now... what is going to be done about it?
          I have seen no staff member speak up, I would like to know how it is going to be dealt with if at all?

          Seems this is a problem that is easily corrected, all testimonials must be verified so they have to be done via warrior payments.
          Expert reviews can be given directly to the seller who can use them in his sales page. That is one thought.

          are you going to do something to protect the people who would otherwise be duped?
          Or just disregard it?

          Mark that was a good post you made. That will help most anyone and it didn't cost them a dime. thanks for doing that

          Best,
          -WD
          Signature

          "As a man thinks in his heart so is he-Proverbs 23:7"
          Coming Soon http://graphicsdon.com

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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            There was a time when if I posted something similar that was "going on" - I'd hear from a mod saying "who was it" or "where is it".

            It's not as pro-active here now and with paid mods I don't think it will be. So WE need to report this stuff, not wait for mods to ask us about it.

            In another thread Tiffany mentions "long time member" who is trying to basically steal WSO products here. Not new but it was stopped way back when and is going on again now.

            People who were banned or slammed for things they did in the past are trying again now to see if they can get with by with their tricks. I think the mods will stop them but only if we take the time to identify them TO MODS (not on the public forum) and briefly explain what's going on.
            Signature
            Every child needs a pet because every family needs an optimist

            Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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            • Profile picture of the author shaunwilliams
              Hi

              It's all bullshit really is it not -- the not so needy selling to the very needy -- classic how do i make money online. -- Find a problem and solve that persons problem with your product -- affiliate product whatever . But the cartels will always get together and very often they are country specific -- there is a great one in the North East of England Uk -- you know who you are lol

              Shaun
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          • Profile picture of the author Dorian Anthony
            Originally Posted by WD Mino View Post


            are you going to do something to protect the people who would otherwise be duped?
            Or just disregard it?

            I reported it to mods with screenshots.
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            • Hi Dorian

              Good on you.

              That takes a bit of the old "intestinal fortitude".

              Regards

              Bronwyn and Keith
              Originally Posted by Dorian Anthony View Post

              I reported it to mods with screenshots.
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  • Profile picture of the author lunaBEAM
    Maybe you should expose that guy anyway even though he gave you a refund.
    That way we all know who to stay away from.

    How much did you pay for his coaching anyway?
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    Hmmm so they get paid but we do the work?
    Sounds fishy to me LOL

    Something needs to be put in place

    Best,
    -WD
    Signature

    "As a man thinks in his heart so is he-Proverbs 23:7"
    Coming Soon http://graphicsdon.com

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  • Profile picture of the author seobro
    This is an on going concern. What happened to the rating system we were suppose to put in. Frankly, we need to weed out a bad WSO before it damages the credibility of our group. Sadly, we cannot name names. Other wise I could certainly tell you many.
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    • Hi


      We still buy plenty of WSO's - grabbed 3 yesterday and 1 today.

      Not all are good - not all do we get the chance to look at instantly either.

      There is a rating system - you see it immediately after most purchases. However we never rate it there as you should never rate anything without checking it out.

      But you do get emails from the WF asking you to rate a WSO.

      We have rated quite a few WSO's as a 1 out of 5.

      Then we take note of who was promoting it and said it was "Awesome" and we DO NOT ever buy anything from either of them again.

      Pretty simple system but it works for us.

      Regards

      Bronwyn and Keith

      Originally Posted by seobro View Post

      This is an on going concern. What happened to the rating system we were suppose to put in. Frankly, we need to weed out a bad WSO before it damages the credibility of our group. Sadly, we cannot name names. Other wise I could certainly tell you many.
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  • Profile picture of the author magdag4321
    honestly if you release more than 3 wso's in a year, there is something not right. Not always the case but this formula always helps.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dorian Anthony
    I've sent some PM's to people. Please help me report this guy so we can get him banned.
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  • Profile picture of the author joeysbusiness
    I caught on to the coaching scam a while ago ........took the "needed" coaching .......which basically was the guy READING THE FRIGGING THING to us over the phone...serious! I was very new but I have enough businees experience to know that was a load of crap. I quit and got a refund and considered myself lucky. The funny thing is there were PLENTY of testimonies to this guys terrific coaching ....EVEN from people who went thru the same experince at the same time as me. I know there are some worthwhile WSO's still......however its a NEEDLE IN A HAYSTACK .....and even worse there is NO RELIABLE WAY to discern before buying which one is the worthwhile one!!!!!!

    I used to think ....ah....its only $7 bucks ...go ahead .....it "seems" like its just what you need...
    sigh .......

    testimonies....review .....what ever you want to call them.....are no longer reliable enough to use as a barameter for making a purchase... and thats the end of the road ?
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  • Profile picture of the author joeysbusiness
    If you like it and found it to be ok .......go with it ...TAKE ACTION! If you succeed in producing some
    profits from it ....report back....share your actual results! ( and count yourself fortunate..)

    Good for you ........but the real proof is in YOUR RESULTS! Go for it
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      What happened to the rating system we were suppose to put in

      A rating system will be gamed in a week. How hard is it to be a "buyer" of a $7 product? Or to buy and refunded later by the seller so you can leave a "rating."

      The only thing that can protect people is the knowledge these "things" are happening and the common sense to recognize them when you see them.
      Signature
      Every child needs a pet because every family needs an optimist

      Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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      • Profile picture of the author joeysbusiness
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        A rating system will be gamed in a week. How hard is it to be a "buyer" of a $7 product? Or to buy and refunded later by the seller so you can leave a "rating."

        The only thing that can protect people is the knowledge these "things" are happening and the common sense to recognize them when you see them.
        Thats correct Kay .......AND

        maintaining your own private BLACK LIST ...

        burn me once .....ok .....but I have a list of never buy froms .....and I enjoy
        "unsubscribing"
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  • Profile picture of the author AaronBurton
    Usually the same groups of people review the same products. Which makes sense. I think its a win win. It can be a problem when the product isn't that great and someone asks for a review.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheProductReviewGuy
    Banned
    This is how majority of WSOs make any money at all. They make a review group and start to promote each others product in hopes of creating social proof which will boost their sales. It's done in other ways too such as the Fiverr review group. They buy each others gigs and get high ratings so that they can get natural orders coming in.

    It's just something to look out for when buying products. That's why I created this account. So that I can help people avoid getting ripped off by products that are rehashed, given fake testimonials etc.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
      Originally Posted by TheProductReviewGuy View Post

      That's why I created this account. So that I can help people avoid getting ripped off by products that are rehashed, given fake testimonials etc.
      The problem is that while your intentions might be good, you are part of the problem.

      You are anonymous. You joined within that last day or so and started making a flurry of posts. All the sudden you are the supposed Savior of the WSO forum. Looking at some of your reviews I'm less than impressed. In fact, you may be part of the "cartel" that hurts WSOs so your buddy's WSO gets traction.

      Also, it's obvious that you don't know the rules or (or don't care). For example in this review: http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...ml#post9850912 you say:

      Without even purchasing this WSO I know that the gigs are outsourced on SEOClerks and other sites. The gigs are backlinks, social media likes and related services.

      This WSO isn't worth the $8. Why? Because the method is rehashed thousands of times on the WSO section. If you want to make money on Fiverr, simply purchase more renewed methods or WSOs that show income proof etc. This WSO shows no proof, no screenshot of earnings, no testimonials or anything. Sorry to burst your bubble but no one is going to be purchasing an $8 product with no evidence of it earning money.
      Looks like you didn't buy the WSO. If you didn't but you are reviewing the method you are breaking the rules. Also screenshots of earnings are forbidden here. Anyone that has been around knows this.

      So, thanks but no thanks.

      If you want to help show us your name. Show us YOUR proof of knowing what you are doing. Follow the rules yourself. Build some trust FIRST. Otherwise you are just another unwanted troll that isn't helping anything or anybody here.

      Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author Ron C Farrow
      Originally Posted by TheProductReviewGuy View Post

      This is how majority of WSOs make any money at all. They make a review group and start to promote each others product in hopes of creating social proof which will boost their sales. It's done in other ways too such as the Fiverr review group. They buy each others gigs and get high ratings so that they can get natural orders coming in.

      It's just something to look out for when buying products. That's why I created this account. So that I can help people avoid getting ripped off by products that are rehashed, given fake testimonials etc.
      Yes, who are you? What's wrong with you sharing your real name with us?

      I suggest you take a little time to learn how this forum works. Popping up from nowhere claiming to want to save the world like Captain America or Superman just doesn't cut it here.
      Signature

      Making it with Online Arbitrage

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      • Hi Ron

        We have noticed a few Super Hero types popping up as well - maybe it's all a part of the same underlying issue of "Cartels"???

        Worth a thought.


        Regards

        Bronwyn and Keith
        Originally Posted by Ron C Farrow View Post

        Yes, who are you? What's wrong with you sharing your real name with us?

        I suggest you take a little time to learn how this forum works. Popping up from nowhere claiming to want to save the world like Captain America or Superman just doesn't cut it here.
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  • There comments probably don't harm anyone?

    Whats the issue?
    Signature

    [CENTER][B]==> Do you want to make money online? [/B]
    Free video: How regular people are making 6-figures per month on the internet! [URL="http://www.clkmg.com/fc27/UDCL-IN2WF"][B]Watch this free video now![/B][/URL] <==[/CENTER]

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  • Profile picture of the author NewParadigm
    Caveat emptor
    Signature

    In a moment of decision the best thing you can do is the right thing. The worst thing you can do is nothing. ~ Theodore Roosevelt

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  • Profile picture of the author Matt10
    Something did concern me today as I was considering someone's monthly subscription. Stating how much they make, with all these testimonials, one guy saying he's quitting his job soon...and the video playing only has 50 views...since January 15th.....?

    One would think if you're taking me on as your student, that the squeeze page would get a whole lot more exposure than just 50 views.

    I've been on WF since 2011, and finally comitted to IM by purchasing a server and 2 domains. That's huge for me because I don't have a job right now, I'm simply acting on faith and now I have to act even more on skepticism to make sure I don't fall down the rabbit hole.
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    • Hi Matt

      Great to hear that you have committed to your future.

      Whatever you do make sure that you find something that works and stick to it like glue until it is making the $$$ that you need.

      Then add another income stream as we are in an ever changing environment and a number of income pillars are a good option for long term income.

      One thing that you also need to be aware of is that not everyone who buys everything actually uses it - some people don't even open it for months if at all.

      Also, as many as 90%+ of the videos on places like YouTube have manufactured likes, views etc so don't get caught up in the metrics.


      All the best


      Bronwyn and Keith

      Originally Posted by Matt10 View Post

      Something did concern me today as I was considering someone's monthly subscription. Stating how much they make, with all these testimonials, one guy saying he's quitting his job soon...and the video playing only has 50 views...since January 15th.....?

      One would think if you're taking me on as your student, that the squeeze page would get a whole lot more exposure than just 50 views.

      I've been on WF since 2011, and finally comitted to IM by purchasing a server and 2 domains. That's huge for me because I don't have a job right now, I'm simply acting on faith and now I have to act even more on skepticism to make sure I don't fall down the rabbit hole.
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      • Profile picture of the author Matt10
        Originally Posted by Bronwyn and Keith View Post

        Hi Matt

        Great to hear that you have committed to your future.

        Whatever you do make sure that you find something that works and stick to it like glue until it is making the $$$ that you need.

        Then add another income stream as we are in an ever changing environment and a number of income pillars are a good option for long term income.

        One thing that you also need to be aware of is that not everyone who buys everything actually uses it - some people don't even open it for months if at all.

        Also, as many as 90%+ of the videos on places like YouTube have manufactured likes, views etc so don't get caught up in the metrics.


        All the best


        Bronwyn and Keith
        That's really nice of you to respond and provide some guidance, I really appreciate the honesty. You are right, I guess I need to understand this a bit more as the majority of any "marketing" I've done is for my own gaming channel on YouTube.

        I read something on here that was so profound, someone had quoted Bruce Lee, "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."

        So basically, I'm trying to find that 1 kick
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        • Hi Matt

          Ah - I see your challenge.

          If you are looking for the 1 kick solution then you may be searching for a lifetime.

          Sit down in a quiet place. Relax and think about what you are good at and if creating something that you can put into a medium that others will show interest in (a report, a video, images) and that someone else could use.

          Then think about how many somebodies that might have interest in the same thing.

          If the answer is lots then do something about it. If the answer is only a few then you will struggle. If that is the case go back and think about another option.

          Once you find it you will "kick start" you online career - and always remember that if Frank Kern can start with "parrots" then you can start with almost anything.

          Regards

          Keith

          Originally Posted by Matt10 View Post

          That's really nice of you to respond and provide some guidance, I really appreciate the honesty. You are right, I guess I need to understand this a bit more as the majority of any "marketing" I've done is for my own gaming channel on YouTube.

          I read something on here that was so profound, someone had quoted Bruce Lee, "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."

          So basically, I'm trying to find that 1 kick
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  • Profile picture of the author User-Name
    People ask me to review their wsos and if they dont like the honest review they dont use it.
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    • Hi Andrew

      Yeah same here...LOL

      What a co-incidence.

      Mind you we don't do that many and we are sure that the word get's around the cartels not to "ask us" just in case we give them a brutally honest one that they have to put through the shredder.


      Regards

      Bronwyn and Keith
      Originally Posted by User-Name View Post

      People ask me to review their wsos and if they dont like the honest review they dont use it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Freebiequeen1999
    Bravo! Some of these are really obvious


    I am also really disgusted by these wso that claim outrageous price you could charge for simple things
    There seems to be a huge "get over" mentality - get over on the business...get over on the noobies bying these worthless untried ideas
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  • Profile picture of the author arindamb
    The admins are making some serious changes in the WSO section. I guess in the near future they'll have a way to deal with the "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" pattern.
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