WHY is it that marketers always HATE what works?

by Raydal
59 replies
I've been around online marketers for over a decade now and
it never ceases to amaze me (Warriors not excluded) how
MARKETERS generally seem to hate what works--when
they are on the receiving end that is.

Things such as pop-ups, daily emails, long copy, auto-play videos,
long video sales letters with no progress bars, bright red headlines,
squeeze pages, .. you name it. It's almost like a benchmark that if
marketers say they hate something, you know it works.

-Ray Edwards
#hate #marketers #works
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    • Profile picture of the author Chri5123
      It is because as a 'marketer' you have inside knowledge.

      So you know that a 'free report' will involve (in most cases) a steady stream of emails or that a OTO offer is put there to maximize earnings.

      I think, personally, to be a good marketer you have to be comfortable with marketing and once you know the tactics that marketers use you have to be careful not to get cynical.

      For instance everytime you walk into a call phone shop you know they are going to try and sell you, or if you walk in a car showroom etc...

      So, I don't think it is that marketers HATE what works, but they may HATE having marketing tactics pulled on them.

      Myself, it does not bother me in the slightest - the cool thing about buying is that you ALWAYS have a choice, so if i think something will help with my bizz whether it be an upsell, main product, service etc... i'm all in and you won't have to 'sell' me.

      If I don't want it though, and i can't see the benefits you will have a hard time persuading me.

      All the best,

      Chris Jones
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    • Profile picture of the author Raydal
      Originally Posted by Michael Harris View Post

      Hi Ray,

      I guess you can also add OTO's to that list
      LOL. In a recent promotion I did one potential buyer emailed
      me to make sure that I didn't have a OTO because if I did
      he would not purchase the product. Luckily, I didn't so I
      assured him there was no OTO, so he bought the product.

      -Ray Edwards
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      • Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

        LOL. In a recent promotion I did one potential buyer emailed
        me to make sure that I didn't have a OTO because if I did
        he would not purchase the product. Luckily, I didn't so I
        assured him there was no OTO, so he bought the product.

        -Ray Edwards
        Do you really want that type of customer, Ray?

        I would have gladly refused their purchase whether I had a OTO or not.

        Without rules, you may as well bend over now and take a good stiff one up the arse.

        Not suggesting you don't have a successful business, mate, I'm sure you do. However, I think there has to be a line drawn somewhere.
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        • Profile picture of the author David Keith
          Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty View Post

          Do you really want that type of customer, Ray?

          I would have gladly refused their purchase whether I had a OTO or not.

          Without rules, you may as well bend over now and take a good stiff one up the arse.

          Not suggesting you don't have a successful business, mate, I'm sure you do. However, I think there has to be a line drawn somewhere.
          what the customer was almost certainly really asking was "how complete is this product"

          he was basically asking if i buy it, for xxx dollars, am i then going to be taking to a page that say basically " if you really want this to work for you then you need to send me another xxx dollars and i will give you the rest of the course"

          thats what a lot of oto's have become these days.

          obviously, some customer are better than others, but very few customers actually deserve to be fired.
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          • Profile picture of the author Raydal
            Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty View Post

            Do you really want that type of customer, Ray?

            I would have gladly refused their purchase whether I had a OTO or not.
            Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

            what the customer was almost certainly really asking was "how complete is this product"

            he was basically asking if i buy it, for xxx dollars, am i then going to be taking to a page that say basically " if you really want this to work for you then you need to send me another xxx dollars and i will give you the rest of the course"

            thats what a lot of oto's have become these days.

            obviously, some customer are better than others, but very few customers actually deserve to be fired.
            Declan, I was thinking along the same line with David. I think he was
            concerned about the completeness of the product, at least that was my
            interpretation. There was also another product that was launched around
            the same time that had like 5 OTOs, so I don't know if he was rebuffed by
            this.

            The bottom line is that I didn't take it personally. If I did have an upsell
            I'd have told him not to buy.

            -Ray Edwards
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            • Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

              Declan, I was thinking along the same line with David. I think he was
              concerned about the completeness of the product, at least that was my
              interpretation. There was also another product that was launched around
              the same time that had like 5 OTOs, so I don't know if he was rebuffed by
              this.

              The bottom line is that I didn't take it personally. If I did have an upsell
              I'd have told him not to buy.

              -Ray Edwards
              You see Ray; that's the difference.

              If someone contacts and asks if there's a OTO (ask being the important point here) then of course, no one would have a problem with that. However, just saying that I won't buy a product if there's a OTO is a whole different ball game. It has the knock on effect of that person thinking they have ANY say in how you run YOUR business.

              The other day I got an email from a person on my list telling me she stopped telling personal stories about her life, to her subscribers, b'cause some twat contacted her saying he didn't like those emails and that she should just stick to sending out marketing tips.

              That's the point I'm getting at. And this shit happens every day.

              So, this person was burned by someone else. Fine. Who hasn't? Some of us learn from it and adapt. Others develop this self-entitled brat mentality where they think demands can be made on other marketers just b'cause they're not competent enough to deal with such things better.

              I take nothing personally. That's the key distinction. In fact, taking things personally is what I have the biggest problem with.

              When did this world become so emotionally unstable? No real people left with a backbone willing to stand up and just tell it like it is.

              Anyway, I don't polarize to be different. I do it because there are people (many of them) that I wouldn't give the time of day to out in the real world; So I'm certainly not going to change my attitude because I'm a marketer. I'll leave that up to the charlatans who hide behind their masks.

              Moderator's Note: Removed Inappropriate Language
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              • Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty View Post

                No real people left with a backbone willing to stand up and just tell it like it is.
                Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

                ... one potential buyer emailed
                me to make sure that I didn't have a OTO because if I did
                he would not purchase the product ...
                Sounds like there's at least one real person "left with a backbone willing to stand up and just tell it like it is" ... Nothing personal...
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          • Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

            what the customer was almost certainly really asking was "how complete is this product"

            he was basically asking if i buy it, for xxx dollars, am i then going to be taking to a page that say basically " if you really want this to work for you then you need to send me another xxx dollars and i will give you the rest of the course"

            thats what a lot of oto's have become these days.

            obviously, some customer are better than others, but very few customers actually deserve to be fired.
            That most certainly wasn't what the person was asking.

            If that was the question; that would have been the question.

            It wasn't.

            The person said they would NOT buy the product if there was a OTO.

            There's a difference between what that person said; and what you think they asked.

            Here's the deal: If you decide to never buy a product b'cause it has a OTO attached, then, quite honestly, you have a habit of buying cheap ass crap products from suspect marketers who have tricked you too many times, or/and you don't understand marketing and have made an assumption based on your total lack of knowledge about funnels. Either way, you reek of "not knowing what the feck you're doing" and have already tarred all marketers with the same dirty brush.

            I have no Interest in feeding into the delusion. If you say you won't buy a product from me because there's a OTO. I say; I don't give a damn what you want, or don't want. Either buy the product, or don't buy the product.

            It's no different from a subscriber emailing me saying "Your emails are too controversial and they offend me"

            My reply:
            Why are you telling me this?
            Did you think I was going to change my emails because you get offended easily?
            Do you think I care what your opinion is?
            Just unsubscribe and be on your way.
            If I cared about your opinion; I would be on your email list.

            Sure, my approach may be too harsh for some... maybe most. But if you understood the philosophy behind why I run my business this way; you'd then know why it works so well.

            I believe in what I teach. And that's just one reason why I don't pander for approval or listen to people's criticisms.
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            • Profile picture of the author David Keith
              Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty View Post


              It's no different from a subscriber emailing me saying "Your emails are too controversial and they offend me"

              Sure, my approach may be too harsh for some... maybe most. But if you understood the philosophy behind why I run my business this way; you'd then know why it works so well.

              I believe in what I teach. And that's just one reason why I don't pander for approval or listen to people's criticisms.
              I been doing this a little while.... I know why you run your business that way.

              However, there is a fundamental difference in me not liking your brashness on a personal level and asking for you to accommodate me and me asking if the product you are pushing is complete on its own or if the seller plays the oto to get the rest of the course game.

              A reality of the IM games these days is there there are a lot more games being played nowadays than there used to be.

              This buyer was asking a person who he trusted if the seller was playing the old oto game here. Not a damn thing wrong with that.

              Your other remarks that you are drawing correlation to were a person trying to change the way you do business because it didn't line up with their religious beliefs or some other bs.

              Pretty stark differences really. Asking if there are Oto's in this day and age of IM is actually a decent and valid question when it comes to make a buying decision. Marketers intintional hide stuff like that because they have to for a variety of reasons....otherwise, it would be right there on the sales page.

              Oto's work....but they are gimmicky more often than not....marketers and customers know it.

              If they weren't, they would be what we used to call "bonuses" back 15 years ago in the IM game when products routinely costs $37-$97 instead of 5-7.

              The race to the bottom causes a sharp rise in gimmicks....Oto's just being one of them.
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      • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
        Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

        LOL. In a recent promotion I did one potential buyer emailed
        me to make sure that I didn't have a OTO because if I did
        he would not purchase the product. Luckily, I didn't so I
        assured him there was no OTO, so he bought the product.

        -Ray Edwards
        Hahaha im sorry but oto or no my answer would have been

        YES OF COURSE THERE IS AN OTO, SO GOODBYE.

        And I'm guessing its only bad or wannabe marketers that hate being marketed too, the ones good at their job understand when its best to use each strategy and when its time to not use it.

        Being able to weave the marketing techniques seamlessly into the buying process is what makes the difference.

        If the process jumps up and smacks customers in the face with a wet fish, then there is going to be an adverse reaction.

        Its not knowing how to do these things its knowing why they work and where they work that makes the difference

        OTO's should sell the chocolate sauce not the ice cream cone
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  • Profile picture of the author Gene Pimentel
    I think it's because they understand the dynamics of each marketing effort. They have seen the "inside" of the marketing machine, and now they are the one experiencing what the machine was built for - to extract money in exchange for a product or service.
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    • Profile picture of the author nicoli
      This is the truth.

      I can compare it to having spun records for years and now find it difficult to enjoy a set in a club without being so critical.

      Once you know how it works, you despise anything other than perfect when you are targeted with it.

      Originally Posted by Gene Pimentel View Post

      I think it's because they understand the dynamics of each marketing effort. They have seen the "inside" of the marketing machine, and now they are the one experiencing what the machine was built for - to extract money in exchange for a product or service.
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  • Profile picture of the author discrat
    Because most of the time the actual Marketers are NOT 'their Market'. We become way too analytical.

    A lot of Marketers talk about Squeeze Pages looking sleazy or to spammy etc..etc...

    Do you know how many people outside of IMers know what a Squeeze Page is ?


    Before I was in IM 8 years ago when I was getting emails for muscle building products, I did NOT know that in each email when they were addressing me by my name.. I didn't know that was automated at all.

    I thought they were actually typing my first name in throughout the email. LOL



    - Robert Andrew
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  • Profile picture of the author HDRider
    We also see it so much on a daily basis we get over exposed to it. I hate the sites that don't let you leave.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    i think discrat nailed it.

    as we become more seasoned marketers, we ignore the hype and emotional triggers more an more. they eventually become annoying because we understand right from the begining why the sales letter is so long or the why the video has a 20 minute intro that talks about the lifestyle you dream of having and can have if you just buy this product i am pushing

    That being said, the thread going on about pat flynn right now also proves there is more than one way to make a business out of IM. One poster in that thread asked why he didn't do many of the things you mention. Thats a guy making a million a yr and a guy in wf "feels" like he could be making more if he employed many of the strategies you describe here. lol.

    lets face it, Pat doing nearly a million a year is in the top 1% of the top 1% of wf members and yet he employs relatively few of the tactics you mention. I wonder if there is something to that?

    probably not. lol.

    But the main things i think is that the target markets. Guys targeting mid / higher lvl marketers usually dont employ the things you mention nearly as often and certainly not as aggressively.
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  • Profile picture of the author QueenMelanie
    when we open a webpage with those pop ups or other monetization methods, we know exactly whats going on and what their purpose is. over the years I have just become immune to all the BS that comes with the internet..
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  • Profile picture of the author Humbee360
    Good thread, I would be inclined to interject the obvious gorilla in the room, just because something works does not mean its a good way to approach the future.

    There is always room for improvement, its a great way to look at life as well as marketing.

    I have interviewed thousands of small business owners over the last few years, mostly because I see them struggling, most small business owners are busy people, they are struggling to make their business more profitable, they put in more hours because they may not have the capital to invest in a better business model.

    They work more hours now doing what they used to have employees doing, but personal time to many of these business people is free, the truth is very different, working more hours often leads to mistakes and lost opportunities for growth.

    They are often literally overwhelmed with tasks, to the point that they cannot see the forest for the trees.

    As a case in point, I saw two different large automobile auctions, that not only did not have a mobile product but also were using old often inoperative websites that did not fit in with what the buyers expected.

    These are not mom and pop stores but multi million dollar corporations, (they are growing but its painful) no IT department, no tech savvy employees and because they are so busy they do not want to discuss it, unless you force them to do it, they will continue right along with the old way of doing things, they view the internet as a side line not worth investing time and effort.

    So they throw up a page or two and they wait for the regular sharks to show up and sell cars far below the value they could be getting for those vehicles.

    That is the way I see a lot of these internet marketing business models, sad old and tired, do they work?

    Well it depends on how you view the obvious.

    Work is not Success...

    Work is work, success is the product of work certainly, less work more success now that is something that works...
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    A large majority of self-identified "internet marketers" are not actually marketers at all... they're hyper-engaged enthusiasts.

    They compulsively consume a never ending procession of marketing related products and services with a soft goal/dream of putting it all into action eventually, some day in the future that, for many, unsurprisingly never comes.

    And so, how better to soothe the nagging anxiety of yet another day, week, month, year of achieving little to nothing than to project all that pent up angst onto an ethical quandary about "spammy marketing tactics" and the vilification of those that use them?

    This sounds judgmental, but it's really not - it's just how people behave in the pursuit of earning money online.
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    • Profile picture of the author kilgore
      Maybe because what works for one person, in one situation may not work in another?

      Actually, on my site we don't use any of your examples of what works: "pop-ups, daily emails, long copy, auto-play videos, long video sales letters with no progress bars, bright red headlines, squeeze pages". Not a single one. Even so, I wouldn't claim that they don't work -- I just recognize that for what I'm promoting, for my customers, given my business model those aren't the appropriate tools for us.

      But that shouldn't be surprising.

      All over the internet you'll see very successful companies using very different techniques for marketing. Take, for example, the "long copy" you mentioned above and look at how Apple approaches their iPhone 6 page versus Amazon.com:

      Apple (see: Apple - iPhone 6) uses the long copy that you're talking about. Giant pictures, bold text (though certainly no bright red headlines -- it is possible to use principles of good design even on a long sales page!), and tons and tons of product information.

      Amazon's iPone pages (e.g., Amazon.com: Apple iPhone 6, Space Gray, 16 GB...Amazon.com: Apple iPhone 6, Space Gray, 16 GB... ) are also long, but the sales copy is actually quite short. Instead, the bulk of Amazon's pages are taken up with reviews, product questions and... links to other products.

      And it's that last item, links to other products, that really highlights the difference between the two approaches: Apple doesn't care where you buy your iPhone, just as long as you buy an iPhone. Amazon doesn't care whether or not you buy an iPhone, just as long as you buy whatever smartphone you do purchase from Amazon.com. Because of this, these sites have very different approaches and moreover, I would argue that even though these approaches are vastly different, they are also the correct approaches in each case. Apple is trying to take any doubt you might have out of whether or not an iPhone is right for you. Amazon is trying to make sure that you'll like whatever you buy (and that you'll be able to find lots of accessories too!)

      So when you say that marketers don't like "what works", I think you have to be careful. Perhaps the problem is the techniques you're describing aren't being used in the right situation. Because I find that usually if someone is noticing the techniques instead of the product, that either the techniques aren't being used well or aren't being used in the right situation. For instance, look at that Apple page again: even though it's "long copy" it doesn't feel that way. It's the product -- not the technique -- that shines through. And that's exactly what you want.
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      • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
        Originally Posted by kilgore View Post

        when you say that marketers don't like "what works", I think you have to be careful. Perhaps the problem is the techniques your describing aren't being used in the right situation. Because I find that usually if someone is noticing the techniques instead of the product, that either the techniques aren't being used well or aren't being used in the right situation. For instance, look at that Apple page again: even though it's "long copy" it doesn't feel that way. It's the product -- not the technique -- that shines through. And that's exactly what you want.
        Great distinction and example(s), Kilgore.

        +1
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    • Profile picture of the author Raydal
      Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod View Post

      And so, how better to soothe the nagging anxiety of yet another day, week, month, year of achieving little to nothing than to project all that pent up angst onto an ethical quandary about "spammy marketing tactics" and the vilification of those that use them?
      What a sentence! I don't know if this was intentional or not (if it were, then
      you are a genius Brian) but by the time I came to the end of the sentence I
      could feel the burden of its sentiment.

      -Ray Edwards
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    • Profile picture of the author Chri5123
      Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod View Post

      A large majority of self-identified "internet marketers" are not actually marketers at all... they're hyper-engaged enthusiasts.

      They compulsively consume a never ending procession of marketing related products and services with a soft goal/dream of putting it all into action eventually, some day in the future that, for many, unsurprisingly never comes.

      And so, how better to soothe the nagging anxiety of yet another day, week, month, year of achieving little to nothing than to project all that pent up angst onto an ethical quandary about "spammy marketing tactics" and the vilification of those that use them?

      This sounds judgmental, but it's really not - it's just how people behave in the pursuit of earning money online.
      This is spot on Brian,

      No more to add except, very well said!

      All the best,

      Chris Jones
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

    Things such as pop-ups, daily emails, long copy, auto-play videos, long video sales letters with no progress bars, bright red headlines,
    squeeze pages, .. you name it.
    In so far as I can, as "only an affiliate", not a vendor/merchant at all, I've actually tested all of those things, over the years, apart from pop-ups (I've been too heavily influenced by too many other people's split-testing results to be willing even to test those, myself ), and eventually abandoned/avoided them all - apart from "long copy", which I like very much anyway - because they didn't work for me.

    I'm - literally - "just saying".

    Very good replies, above, from Brian and Kilgore, and a very interesting thread, anyway.

    I suspect, increasingly, that my own traffic demographics (in all of my niches) may be a little atypical, because of the ways I generate most of my traffic, and that actually in my case the difference between "my own preferences" and "my visitors' preferences" are probably distinctly fewer and less significant than is the case for many marketers.

    One more point: it seems to me that when people "test" things for themselves, the exact parameters they choose to measure are really what determine their conclusions. The classic example is perhaps "squeeze pages". If you make the mistake of monitoring/judging according to the proportion of visitors who opt in (i.e. subscriber numbers), then you're more or less bound to decide that "they work", it seems to me. Whereas if you monitor according to the income that the resulting lists produce over a 6-month period, when sent the same email series, you're very likely to come to an entirely different conclusion. People assume what they assume (in this case, that subscriber numbers are proportional to income - which is often nonsense), and they see what they look for.


    .
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    • Profile picture of the author Raydal
      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

      In so far as I can, as "only an affiliate", not a vendor/merchant at all, I've actually tested all of those things, over the years, apart from pop-ups (I've been too heavily influenced by too many other people's split-testing results to be willing even to test those, myself ), and eventually abandoned/avoided them all - apart from "long copy", which I like very much anyway - because they didn't work for me.
      You have actually tested these elements and they didn't work for you
      so I wouldn't say that you hate them. This places you in a different
      class. I'm talking about marketers who wouldn't even try these things
      "because they don't like when other people do these things to them".

      -Ray Edwards
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

        You have actually tested these elements and they didn't work for you so I wouldn't say that you hate them. This places you in a different
        class. I'm talking about marketers who wouldn't even try these things "because they don't like when other people do these things to them".
        Yes; good point, well made and well taken, Ray - and thanks for starting the thread.

        .
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  • Profile picture of the author AtBat
    People do not hate what works, people hate marketing in general. Its annoying for everyone. I would pay Direct TV another $1000 a year if I could just skip commercials.
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    • Profile picture of the author Chri5123
      Originally Posted by AtBat View Post

      People do not hate what works, people hate marketing in general. Its annoying for everyone. I would pay Direct TV another $1000 a year if I could just skip commercials.
      Here is a question for you then:

      "Do YOU hate marketing?"

      If you do, it means you hate selling, which will put you in a difficult spot if you want to be successful online.

      I agree there is a lot of ads though, but i don't hate them - if anything i try and pick up all the tips i can from them to use in my biz.

      All the best,

      Chris Jones
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  • Profile picture of the author Insano
    I still feel less a marketer than a salesman, spent most of my life doing sales. Thus whenever I see that someone is "working" me, warmup - presentation - close, I allow myself to have fun with them and act like a interested but hard customer. I run them trough the treadmill of hot and cold, including adapting my facial expression and posture to the "mood" I act, But in most cases, unless I really need the product / service, I dont close the deal.

    Long storry short - We know what which element is ment to do, why which color was used, why the expression on the landing page is like it is, why the signup form is where it is. We know the "No" words and the closed question, and look at others marketing effort from another point of view in compare to the regular consumer who is beeing "processed" without noticing it. And this is why we "hate" such things.

    In my case I dont "hate" anything - I am still curious and learn from different approaches.

    Just the other day I saw an awesome way to get leads for an SEO agency, which was new, unexpected, fresh. So I answered his spam mail just to give him my feedback
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  • Thanks for the thread, I was about to convert my sales pages to video sales pages but reading around the forum found that I lot of marketers don't like them.

    So I guess I'll go ahead and try it out and see how it does as far as conversions.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Squeaky wheel syndrome? That could be part of it - those things that irritate also catch attention and may lead to results.

      The comment about "noticing techniques" is insightful. It's a bit like watching a movie or a stage play....if you NOTICE the "acting" - the actor isn't very good. If the acting is good, you follow the story instead.

      So the trick for a seller is to use all the techniques but make them seem like minor irritations rather than planned "techniques" to the buyer.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
      Sometimes these work, sometimes not so much. I use some things in the personal development market that I don't use in the marketing niche. Part of it in marketing is that when you see the same things used over and over again, you just get kind of tired.

      With OTO's now when I see them, the first thing I believe is that the product is incomplete, and I don't buy for that reason. For all I know it might be perfect in its initial state, but my experience has given me that prejudice.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
    Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

    I've been around online marketers for over a decade now and
    it never ceases to amaze me (Warriors not excluded) how
    MARKETERS generally seem to hate what works--when
    they are on the receiving end that is.

    Things such as pop-ups, daily emails, long copy, auto-play videos,
    long video sales letters with no progress bars, bright red headlines,
    squeeze pages, .. you name it. It's almost like a benchmark that if
    marketers say they hate something, you know it works.

    -Ray Edwards
    Well... for me hate would be a pretty strong word. I don't really
    hate any of those things but there are several that I dislike very
    strongly... and it doesn't matter to me that the work for someone.
    I think they're cheesy and, in some cases, downright unethical.
    I've never used them. I also never start threads complaining about
    them... lol
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  • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
    You caught me. I do hate all of them except some long copy. Some long copy is very informative and helpful to me as a possible buyer. Other long copy is just horrendously repetitive and ridiculously hyped up.


    What I don't hate is the marketer that uses some of these things. If they have actually tested them (which I suspect is rare) they should use what works. Nevertheless, I do agree with some of the earlier comments that for many products all you are getting is a one-time only impulse buy or a subscriber that never buys anything ever.


    I stopped testing all of those things you mentioned except the copy a long time ago. For the niches and products I was promoting I just got inflated numbers instead of actual long term customers/subscribers. I also simply didn't like the way it made me feel about marketing. Just a personal thing.


    Many people hate the tactics of some car salesmen. The higher priced and quality of the car the less you see of the stereotypical negative tactics. If you are promoting good quality products and services the less you have to scream, light fireworks and trick people into buying them in my opinion. I think as marketers when we see the things you mentioned it automatically makes us question if this person really has anything worthwhile to investigate.
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  • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
    Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

    Things such as pop-ups, daily emails, long copy, auto-play videos,
    long video sales letters with no progress bars, bright red headlines,
    squeeze pages, .. you name it.
    Nobody really hates these techniques. It's moreso poor implementation of the techniques that marketers find highly annoying.

    If you're going to do a popup, at least make it something interesting. Daily email? Fine, but make it worthwhile and not just an excuse to make contact. Long copy shouldn't be 90% fluff. etc........
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  • Profile picture of the author DZM
    A really nice thread!

    Hate what works? nonsense? It's a mindset problem. Too complex to determite it by just analytics.

    What I do? I choose my relationships
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    I think part of the reason, frankly, is that many marketers know that the techniques they are using are borderline scammy/scummy/sleazy/unethical/illegal/immoral and they don't like it when it happens to them. Putting a gun to someone's head and demanding their wallet works too. For a while.

    A couple examples from this very forum.

    There are many posts that talk about using throw away emails. These posts are right alongside the ones talking about how you can make millions by blasting away at your list. Isn't there a disconnect there when people suggest throwaway emails yet say you can make big bucks with email? When enough users figure this out and the list dries up, the "marketer" will just buy another list of names or change domain names or change pen names or whatever it takes to make it work.

    A lot of times we hear that we aren't our market but I think many times yes we are.

    For example, there are a lot of people advertising list building products in their sigs because many or most of the people here want to build a list. So why aren't they the seller's market? And he wants to build a better list too so why isn't he his market?

    I think sometimes people spout off one liners that seems to be the truth but in fact it's not the truth at all or is covering up some of that unethical behavior marketers hate. Like when someone complains about being "spammed" and the posts start rolling in about unsubscribing or how it's not spam if you ask for it or just send it to the spam folder KNOWING all the while that many marketers do NOT honor the unsubscribe button because they'll just put you on another list. Why? Because it works. For a while. People learn to not complain - they just use their throwaway email and leave calling everyone and everything here a scam.

    Another thing may be that many people know their own situations. They know they've never made a dime online but they are told to publish a WSO promising the moon so they get leery when they see WSOs that may fit their situation. They know they don't know how to get traffic but they have some cool PLR about traffic they can sell you. They know their $212 miracle day in their case study was one time and the average of all the other days is 13 cents. So when they see the same from others, they dislike it because they know/wonder what is going on.

    So, in the end it just comes down to numbers. Here, a lot of marketers claim they have tested but they haven't really. For example, there are some that INSIST that the more you email the more money you make and that smart marketers that want to get rich do it this way. Yet they haven't tried a once a month email practiced by some extremely rich marketers, for example.

    There are many good marketing strategies that many people should look into using. But don't use something that makes you uncomfortable is my thinking because while in a particular case I may not be my market, I am a fellow human being and my ethics and thoughts about trying to be a decent person towards others outweighs any temporary monetary gain.

    For example, I've been in the situation where after a purchase, a video started automatically that had no buttons and when I tried to quickly cancel because others were around that I didn't want to know what I was doing, I was hit with 3 or 4 WAIT offers all out loud too. I wouldn't want to embarrass a customer or put their job at risk or anything just because a particular trick works for now.

    I believe you can be a good marketer, make a bunch of money, and not be a jerk or put in the same group as the bad eggs.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author Raydal
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      I think part of the reason, frankly, is that many marketers know that the techniques they are using are borderline scammy/scummy/sleazy/unethical/illegal/immoral and they don't like it when it happens to them. Putting a gun to someone's head and demanding their wallet works too. For a while.
      Whoah! Those are some strong words. I don't think anything in my
      list can be classified by any of the words you are using there. Of course
      the examples you gave can be described by your words of choice but
      that's a different category of "marketing" altogether.

      -Ray Edwards
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
        In your list you had

        things such as pop-ups, daily emails, long copy, auto-play videos,
        long video sales letters with no progress bars, bright red headlines,
        squeeze pages
        There are many, many complaints about being spammed with daily emails (whether or not it's spam isn't the point - it's the perception) so those guys that feel they are getting spammed hate that marketing technique.

        There are many, many complaints about auto-play videos you can't stop, for example, that you have to watch before you get to your download, and the complainers feel this is scammy because the marketer refuses to immediately give access to the download. So they hate this technique.

        I'm talking more about perception than anything else. Put 100 regular people - people that don't know what IM is or whatever - they just wanted to buy a diet book or a book about making money on Ebay. Then subject them to daily and multi daily promotional emails and I would say that they great majority of normal folks would come to the conclusion that they were a spammed/scammed/victim of some sort.

        The reason many don't like these marketing techniques themselves and they wouldn't want their mother to be subjected to it, is because there is a feeling of it being wrong/bad/unethical/pushy/whatever.

        If everyone had a wonderful experience with popups then no one would dislike them. The same goes for video sales letters with no progress bars, forced opt-ins, etc.

        The car dealer wouldn't want his mom put through the tricks and double speak and secret add-ons either but he does it to others. He knows how tricky they are. He knows, deep down, that people don't want to be treated this way. So he hates it.

        I'm not saying anyone using these things are scammers/bad/unethical. I'm saying people hate the feeling - the perception of the effects of some of these techniques. I guess I'm agreeing with DubDubDubDot that it's the implementation that is the problem.

        For example, I get multiple daily emails from Early to Rise and love it, read them, and have bought from them. I get multiple daily emails from some Warriors and they go in my never read mailbox.

        Mark

        Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

        Whoah! Those are some strong words. I don't think anything in my
        list can be classified by any of the words you are using there. Of course
        the examples you gave can be described by your words of choice but
        that's a different category of "marketing" altogether.

        -Ray Edwards
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        • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
          It's ironic, I don't particularly like the pop-ups, daily emails, long copy, auto-play videos, long video sales letters with no progress bars, bright red headlines,squeeze pages,or even cold phone calls at dinner (I added that one) ... in and of themselves.
          If ...


          ... The message isn't targeted enough to my current sweet spot (want or need).

          But If it Is ... I Love Them All!

          And I imagine that's true for everyone who claim they don't like them.

          For example, if you had a nagging problem you to had to get control of now (or yesterday) and someone dripping with credibility sent you a ...

          Pop-up ... daily email ... long copy ...auto-play video,
          long video sales letters with no progress bar ... bright red headline ... squeeze page ... or even a cold phone call at dinner
          .

          That gave you an affordable, timely and convenient solution.

          You'd listen wouldn't you? So, I think it all comes down to targeting (and timing). Not necessarily the medium -- all things being equal.

          The only thing is the target is getting smaller because of growing competition, skepticism and consumer demands. Plus, a growing variety of other options for consumers, etc.
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      I think part of the reason, frankly, is that many marketers know that the techniques they are using are borderline scammy/scummy/sleazy/unethical/illegal/immoral and they don't like it when it happens to them. Putting a gun to someone's head and demanding their wallet works too. For a while.

      A couple examples from this very forum.

      There are many posts that talk about using throw away emails. These posts are right alongside the ones talking about how you can make millions by blasting away at your list. Isn't there a disconnect there when people suggest throwaway emails yet say you can make big bucks with email? When enough users figure this out and the list dries up, the "marketer" will just buy another list of names or change domain names or change pen names or whatever it takes to make it work.

      A lot of times we hear that we aren't our market but I think many times yes we are.

      For example, there are a lot of people advertising list building products in their sigs because many or most of the people here want to build a list. So why aren't they the seller's market? And he wants to build a better list too so why isn't he his market?

      I think sometimes people spout off one liners that seems to be the truth but in fact it's not the truth at all or is covering up some of that unethical behavior marketers hate. Like when someone complains about being "spammed" and the posts start rolling in about unsubscribing or how it's not spam if you ask for it or just send it to the spam folder KNOWING all the while that many marketers do NOT honor the unsubscribe button because they'll just put you on another list. Why? Because it works. For a while. People learn to not complain - they just use their throwaway email and leave calling everyone and everything here a scam.

      Another thing may be that many people know their own situations. They know they've never made a dime online but they are told to publish a WSO promising the moon so they get leery when they see WSOs that may fit their situation. They know they don't know how to get traffic but they have some cool PLR about traffic they can sell you. They know their $212 miracle day in their case study was one time and the average of all the other days is 13 cents. So when they see the same from others, they dislike it because they know/wonder what is going on.

      So, in the end it just comes down to numbers. Here, a lot of marketers claim they have tested but they haven't really. For example, there are some that INSIST that the more you email the more money you make and that smart marketers that want to get rich do it this way. Yet they haven't tried a once a month email practiced by some extremely rich marketers, for example.

      There are many good marketing strategies that many people should look into using. But don't use something that makes you uncomfortable is my thinking because while in a particular case I may not be my market, I am a fellow human being and my ethics and thoughts about trying to be a decent person towards others outweighs any temporary monetary gain.

      For example, I've been in the situation where after a purchase, a video started automatically that had no buttons and when I tried to quickly cancel because others were around that I didn't want to know what I was doing, I was hit with 3 or 4 WAIT offers all out loud too. I wouldn't want to embarrass a customer or put their job at risk or anything just because a particular trick works for now.

      I believe you can be a good marketer, make a bunch of money, and not be a jerk or put in the same group as the bad eggs.

      Mark

      I have to laugh at these types of replies...

      People willingly (on here) go out everyday and buy goods and services with anything from 200% to 700% mark ups.

      They line up overnight for the lates apple device which costs about $10 to manufacture in China.

      They pay ridiculous amounts to by designer items sourced from 3rd world sweatshops...

      And yet, because people are selling online, they are somehow precluded from trying to turn a profit.

      Confused.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
        Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

        I have to laugh at these types of replies...

        People willingly (on here) go out everyday and buy goods and services with anything from 200% to 700% mark ups.

        They line up overnight for the lates apple device which costs about $10 to manufacture in China.

        They pay ridiculous amounts to by designer items sourced from 3rd world sweatshops...

        And yet, because people are selling online, they are somehow precluded from trying to turn a profit.

        Confused.
        I never said anything about profit. The thread is about tactics/actions/strategies that work and why people don't like them. I shared some of the reasons I think people don't like them.

        I am 100% for profit and for getting every last dime I can out of every opportunity. I just choose to do it in a more win-win way instead of a shove it down your throat way.

        There is a thread about Pat Flynn. He's making almost $1,000,000 a year from his marketing efforts. Someone asked him why he wasn't building (read hammering) his list because if he did then he could really rake in the bucks. His response was that he chooses to use a different softer approach and it's apparently working pretty well.

        So when we talk about what works, I think we need to include those tactics that are softer, gentler, etc. especially when it's softer and gentler at the million dollar level.

        The great, great majority of the people pushing the "real" marketing techniques don't even come close to those numbers. So why not try something different that the marketer probably wouldn't hate? If it works, it works, right?

        Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve B
    Ray,

    The assumption you've made in your thread title . . . WHY is it that marketers always HATE what works? . . . is probably too strong and I know it's not accurate because I'm a marketer and I don't hate what works. Others that have responded to this thread don't always hate what works either.

    Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

    It's almost like a benchmark that if marketers say they hate something, you know it works.
    IMO, the usual sales confrontation has the marketer on offense pushing for the sale (often very aggressively) and the prospect on defense, putting up his/her guard so as to "protect" his choices and his money from being extracted on something of little or no value.

    But the tables get turned 180 degrees when all of a sudden the marketer becomes the prospect. Now he is on the defensive. He feels that he has to act the part because he understands what the marketer is trying to do to him.

    It's his role to protect himself and to not fall for all the tactics and moves of the guy doing the marketing. The marketer even resents the attempts to get him to buy because he has seen all the tricks and he's not going to give in to any of them - he knows better!

    What to do then if you're a marketer?

    I like the simple exercise of putting yourself in the prospect's shoes. How do you like being marketed to? Do what you're comfortable doing. Be yourself. It's going to mean that every marketer is different. Some will be super aggressive, some will use lots of tricks . . . others will do it a different way.

    There's one thing for sure, IMO. We all have different personalities, different voices, different comfort levels with the tactics we use . . . and that's OK, that's as it should be. What is easy to see through and distrust is the marketer that's not true to his persona and that tries to be something he's not. Fakes are almost always uncovered and failures at marketing.

    Just my opinion,

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Raydal
      Originally Posted by Steve B View Post

      It's his role to protect himself and to not fall for all the tactics and moves of the guy doing the marketing. The marketer even resents the attempts to get him to buy because he has seen all the tricks and he's not going to give in to any of them - he knows better!
      Different scenario, but in face-to-face selling I would do all my research
      ahead of going to the store so I know what I want and often shortcut the
      sales person in the middle of their presentation. Sometimes as a "defense"
      I would let them know I'm also in sales and the pitch suddenly gets dropped
      and we are now friends. If it is young sales person then I allow them to
      go through the whole pitch because I know that they need the practice.

      -Ray Edwards
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  • Profile picture of the author Geeked Labs
    I think it's because a lot of marketers aren't making any money and seeing someone else use marketing techniques and make money makes them feel sad.
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  • Profile picture of the author Johnkpt
    Most marketers who hate those marketing methods are the millions who are constantly trying things that don't work and therefore aren't making much money.
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    Great thread.

    IMO, for many, selling is a dirty word. People have an issue with it. yet nothing happens in life until a sale is made... even starting a family... we all sell at one time or another.

    The phrase "internet marketing" should be changed to "internet selling".

    So it follows that if I have an aversion to selling then I probably find selling to me as offensive.

    That said, I think should not their their underpants in a twist every time they are "sold" to.

    If anything, learn from the masters if you want to replicate their success.

    Sal
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    The simple and cruel answer is that they are not really marketers. They are only half marketers.

    Sal
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  • Profile picture of the author paulie888
    I have actually learned to embrace and learn from all the little sneaky, devious tricks and ploys that marketers use online.

    Instead of hating it and directing my energy in a negative direction, I have learned to look out for these tactics and adopt the mindset of "what can I learn from this and how can I adopt it to my business, if possible?"

    These big marketers have spent thousands of dollars tweaking and revamping their websites and sales copy to increase conversions, and it makes sense to emulate and model some of these tactics if they can be applied to my own business.

    So while I may get momentarily annoyed, it doesn't last for long because I'm looking for those little golden marketing nuggets I can apply within my own business.
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    • Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

      I have actually learned to embrace and learn from all the little sneaky, devious tricks and ploys that marketers use online.

      Instead of hating it and directing my energy in a negative direction, I have learned to look out for these tactics and adopt the mindset of "what can I learn from this and how can I adopt it to my business, if possible?"

      These big marketers have spent thousands of dollars tweaking and revamping their websites and sales copy to increase conversions, and it makes sense to emulate and model some of these tactics if they can be applied to my own business.

      So while I may get momentarily annoyed, it doesn't last for long because I'm looking for those little golden marketing nuggets I can apply within my own business.
      If i created a wonder pill that cut out all fat from the body..100% worked and no side effects. You think i'd have to even advertise it never mind trying to dupe suckers in with tricks?

      Most of the time the fact they even have to advertise is a bad sign. MOST.

      Don't get me started on cold calling and spam.
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      • Profile picture of the author Raydal
        Originally Posted by gettingricherdaily View Post

        If i created a wonder pill that cut out all fat from the body..100% worked and no side effects. You think i'd have to even advertise it never mind trying to dupe suckers in with tricks?
        This is a common misconception. Even heaven has to be advertised. Simply
        because something is "out of this world" doesn't mean that it would not
        require advertisement.

        Have you ever seen an advertisement for water? Why advertise water
        when everyone needs it to live? Answer that question and you'll know
        that even great products need advertisement.

        -Ray Edwards
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  • Profile picture of the author kibebe7
    LOL, this is so true. I almost get annoyed when I get to a site that tries to trick me into getting onto their list -- yet all day, I am using the same tricks and seeking for better ways to get people to my list. What a paradox! Guilty as charged.
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    • Profile picture of the author Raydal
      Originally Posted by kibebe7 View Post

      LOL, this is so true. I almost get annoyed when I get to a site that tries to trick me into getting onto their list -- yet all day, I am using the same tricks and seeking for better ways to get people to my list. What a paradox! Guilty as charged.
      A very honest response. And I'm not saying this because you agreed with
      me, but at least you admit that when the shoe is on the other foot you find
      it a little annoying. Much like when I go to the auto shop and they ask for
      my phone number, I want to ask, "What does that have to do with getting
      what I came to buy?" But I know what they are doing and so calmly
      endure it.

      -Ray Edwards
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  • In all fairness Ray..we know it's all b*S* and mirrors.

    The harder you have to sell something to me...the more of a turn off.

    Ridculous headline
    Testimonials (often fake and paid)
    B*S* facts, hype, inflated income claims
    Buy now or it goes up
    500% money back guarantee

    See how desperate this all sounds? You probably don't
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  • lets face it, Pat doing nearly a million a year is in the top 1% of the top 1% of wf members and yet he employs relatively few of the tactics you mention. I wonder if there is something to that?
    Huge revenues and small profits are what most big business is built on. What people need en mass.

    If you go down the road or trying to hype/trick people into buying stuff they can do without you are never going to run a big business. Probably not a long term one either. Clothing, food, energy, telecommunications, web hosting...tiny margins but done on HUGE volume.

    I wonder if anyone actually learns anything from these posts or do they shrug their little shoulders and keep doing the same thing?
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    • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
      Originally Posted by gettingricherdaily View Post

      I wonder if anyone actually learns anything from these posts or do they shrug their little shoulders and keep doing the same thing?
      They CAN... and some always do.

      That's a useful thing to remember or you'll drive yourself (and everyone else) nuts trying to "fix the herd", a futile fool's errand if there ever was one.

      Clearly you know the territory here. Message to market match and all that.

      Talk to the people that are ready to hear the straight talk and I guarantee there's somebody listening (who isn't going to thank you or post a reply... they're busying THINKING.)
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  • Profile picture of the author Bob Reynolds
    I would not say, they "always hate"...

    Alot of those annoying actions can be a tad irritating, but as was mentioned in the thread, within in the annoyance there is usually a good technique at hand.
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  • Profile picture of the author N4PGW
    As a marketer, I know the tactics. I hate seeing a video showing how easy something works for only $27. Then, when I buy it, I get an OTO for a plugin (required to do what the video shows) for an additional $57 or more. (numbers not necessarily exact).

    In other cases, I have found myself more interested in the OTO than the product for sale. It does no harm for a WSO seller to announce the OTOs/upsells, etc. to people familiar with how things work.

    What kills me are the number of marketers who get ticked off when another marketer includes an affiliate link in the report they bought, or even got for free. Really??? I understand it when the report you paid for won't work unless you buy under their affiliate link! - that's just a pyramid scheme for sale. But otherwise? Why so angry that someone gets practices what they teach?
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    • Profile picture of the author nicoli
      Originally Posted by N4PGW View Post


      What kills me are the number of marketers who get ticked off when another marketer includes an affiliate link in the report they bought, or even got for free. Really??? I understand it when the report you paid for won't work unless you buy under their affiliate link! - that's just a pyramid scheme for sale. But otherwise? Why so angry that someone gets practices what they teach?
      I've had a few of these dorks on my lists and I just remove them. There is nothing wrong with offering an additional solution (not one required for your product) whether it be your product or an affiliate offer. Some people just have nothing better to do than moan and complain. Just remove them from your list. 95% of my MMO lists love related products I have searched out and offer a review on.
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