We are not all 'Bros' & 'Dudes'

by Melody
146 replies
Having been in the marketing world for a few years now (okay, a few decades now), I have always tried to be very 'neutral' in most of my general marketing efforts. Not just gender, but age, race etc - unless it was a very niche specific product that SHOULD be marketed to women, the over 55 crowd etc.

BUT...it seems that a lot of IMers today are addressing their marketing efforts to a very specific demographic: 'DUDES' and 'BROS'.

Unfortunately, that leaves out a pretty significant portion of the marketplace, because, trust me, I am neither a dude nor a bro, and I both make and spend a LOT of money online.

I understand the terms are cool, etc, etc.....but seriously...there are an awful lot of us female types in the IM space - you really might want to re-think your marketing approach and come up with something a little more 'inclusive' than dudes and bros for you next newsletter ...because I know a lot of us are now just hitting the delete button instead of reading your emails....and that is probably not the result you want

Just sayin'.....

The Old Broad, Melody
#bros #dudes
  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    i certainly see your point, but trying to be all inclusive of everyone in something like an email newsletter is a fools game.

    you can't please everyone and the more you try, the less you please anyone.... which is infinitely worse than not pleasing some people.

    if the list owners target market is ok being identified as "bros" and "dudes" then he very well be getting exactly the results he wants. He is connecting with a certain group of people at the expense of alienating another group of people.

    what he ends up with is a list of people that are exactly the kind of people that like his tone and angle and such. So he has their attention. sure he may have lost your attention in doing so, but if you are not his target market then i am sure he is fine with that.

    just because you make and spend money online doesn't mean you are the target market of every marketer in the MMO / IM niche.

    although, mostly i do tend to agree with your point that alienating people based on sex is probably not the smartest choice for the vast majority of marketers in this market.

    I am merely pointing out that a person could in all likely hood make a very good living from a list of people who identify with their "mentor" of sorts referring to them as "bros" and "dudes"
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    • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
      Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

      you can't please everyone and the more you try, the less you please anyone.... which is infinitely worse than not pleasing some people.

      if the list owners target market is ok being identified as "bros" and "dudes" then he very well be getting exactly the results he wants. He is connecting with a certain group of people at the expense of alienating another group of people.

      what he ends up with is a list of people that are exactly the kind of people that like his tone and angle and such. So he has their attention. sure he may have lost your attention in doing so, but if you are not his target market then i am sure he is fine with that.
      I disagree and would go further to say this sexist approach is inappropriate, and so is being an apologist for sexism.

      It is one thing to have a newsletter targeted to men and be very upfront at the outset so anyone signing up knows what to expect. But that is apparently not the situation.

      Otherwise, to assert it is appropriate to be sexist to target one group at the expense of another is wrong. Crap like this drives sexual harassment and discrimination lawsuits.

      You can't assert most of an IM newsletter audience is going to be men so that is the primary target and that justifies calling everyone a dude. It is this type of sexist attitude which keeps out women and thus is self-perpetuating.

      Might as well call women babes or bitches in the newsletter to keep up the locker room banter that is being suggested and to further make clear a certain kind of man is the target market.

      This problem exists in many tech areas. I am a bit surprised, David, you would approve of "marketing" offensive to women where it is OK to drive them off a newsletter because they are not the primary target. (And they are probably not the primary target only due to numbers.)

      To be clear: this is NOT about trying to please anyone and it is appalling that strategy would be misapplied here.

      Example: In addition to being male, one can assume most of an IM newsletter audience is not black. That does not make is appropriate for a newsletter to be racist and to offend African-Americans because they are in the minority

      One can assume most of an IM newsletter audience is not Jewish. That does not make it appropriate for a newsletter to offend Jews because they are in the minority.

      It is similarly not appropriate for a general newsletter to be sexist.

      To suggest one has to "try and please" women by simply being gender neutral instead referring to bros is inappropriate. One can easily start their newsletter with a simple "Hey". That's it. No need to refer to bros.

      Bottom line: I am talking about a general marketing newsletter, which is apparently what Melody is talking about. If you sign up for newletter put out by Penthouse you already know what to expect and that is different.

      .
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      • Profile picture of the author kk075
        Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

        To be clear: this is NOT about trying to please anyone and it is appalling that strategy would be misapplied here.


        .
        I'm not sure how "dude" becomes sexual discrimination and "appalling", people have a right to address their lists however they please. And if the tone is wrong, then they lose a part of their list in the process...and it's their own fault for being naive.

        But that doesn't give you the right to cal them sexist...that is slander and against the law. Calling someone dude certainly is not, even when it's completely out of place.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jennifer Hutson
    If someone has split tested their campaigns and learned that they get better results from addressing their subscribers as "bros" and "dudes," I can't really blame them.

    Like David said, you may not be that marketer's primary demographic, which comes at the price of losing you as a customer to increase the chance for more sales elsewhere.

    As a woman, I don't really mind seeing "bro" or "dude" in an email, but I imagine I'm a minority in that aspect. Then again, I'm only on one list that addresses subscribers like that
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeff Burritt
    Yeah dude, great point

    On a more serious note, I agree the language is non-professional. And I was recently in a business the other day and I overheard one of the web designers on the phone with a client, and he kept saying "yeah man" "cool man" to the client. And I specifically remember feeling weird just listening to him. I thought "he's gonna run that client off because he sounds like a deadbeat dropout." Does that make me old too?
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve B
    Originally Posted by Melody View Post

    Unfortunately, that leaves out a pretty significant portion of the marketplace, because, trust me, I am neither a dude nor a bro

    Melody,

    Thank you so much for this post. I agree completely.

    In fact, I am one of the men in this world that don't want to be called "dude" or "bro" either.

    To me, neither term is endearing and it shows a lack of respect. It's certainly borders on slang or "street talk" and is neither professional nor appropriate unless your audience is your 15 year old buddies.

    Just because the sender feels he can "relax" his vocabulary, that is no excuse to not be courteous or professional. This is business after all.

    Besides, the latest statistics I've seen suggest that women make up the majority of Internet users these days . . . they are not an audience you can afford to offend.

    And with me, it's not just "dude" and "bro" that should be saved for the street. Swearing, most slang, racial remarks, sexual references, and the dreaded "F word" have no place in your marketing talk.

    I know others will disagree, but the crudeness of the Internet seems to be getting worse everyday.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
      Originally Posted by Steve B View Post

      To me, neither term is endearing and it shows a lack of respect. It's certainly borders on slang or "street talk" and is neither professional nor appropriate unless your audience is your 15 year old buddies.
      Agreed. I would never think of starting a newsletter hey bro, even if a product was targeted to men. Since this is a marketing newsletter it is inappropriate.

      Anyone says that and the first image in my mind is here comes a scam.

      .
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      • Profile picture of the author Boonqueesha
        Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

        Agreed. I would never think of starting a newsletter hey bro, even if a product was targeted to men.

        Anyone says that and the first image in my mind is here comes a scam.

        .
        I agree with your sentiments, but you can't tell me it doesn't work. Look at PewDiePie. The guy is a legend and he's the most annoying person I've ever heard. I don't get how he's so successful, not to mention he constantly uses the term "bro" when referencing anyone.
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    • Profile picture of the author satrap
      Originally Posted by Steve B View Post

      Melody,
      To me, neither term is endearing and it shows a lack of respect. It's certainly borders on slang or "street talk" and is neither professional nor appropriate unless your audience is your 15 year old buddies.

      Just because the sender feels he can "relax" his vocabulary, that is no excuse to not be courteous or professional. This is business after all.

      Besides, the latest statistics I've seen suggest that women make up the majority of Internet users these days . . . they are not an audience you can afford to offend.
      Steve
      I am one of those who never uses those terms. I just don't like those terms. However, "...unless your audience is your 15 year old buddies..." is not true at all.

      It's a very narrow view if you think that only 15 years old kids use such terms. I'll give you one very big examples, surfers are famous for being among those group of people who do use such terms extensively. And I would bet if you have a "surf" related list, using those terms will actually get you closer to your audience.

      Now again, I personally don't like or use "dudes" or "bros", I am just saying there are people (read market) who use such terms and they are not all 15 years old kids.

      Whether its appropriate or not to use "street talk", comes down to your niche.
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by Steve B View Post

      Melody,

      Thank you so much for this post. I agree completely.

      In fact, I am one of the men in this world that don't want to be called "dude" or "bro" either.

      To me, neither term is endearing and it shows a lack of respect. It's certainly borders on slang or "street talk" and is neither professional nor appropriate unless your audience is your 15 year old buddies.

      Just because the sender feels he can "relax" his vocabulary, that is no excuse to not be courteous or professional. This is business after all.

      Besides, the latest statistics I've seen suggest that women make up the majority of Internet users these days . . . they are not an audience you can afford to offend.

      And with me, it's not just "dude" and "bro" that should be saved for the street. Swearing, most slang, racial remarks, sexual references, and the dreaded "F word" have no place in your marketing talk.

      I know others will disagree, but the crudeness of the Internet seems to be getting worse everyday.

      Steve
      yeah it is a younger generation thing , Steve.

      I go around in Public and people calling me Bro and hey Dude.

      It gets quite old. Also, I cuss to myself when I hit my hand with a hammer but I really get tired of some people who have to blurt out during passive conversation with loud F bomb in every sentence for everyone to hear.

      I feel like slapping them when they do it in front of children and elders in my present
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    • Profile picture of the author Scott Burton
      Originally Posted by Steve B View Post

      In fact, I am one of the men in this world that don't want to be called "dude" or "bro" either.

      To me, neither term is endearing and it shows a lack of respect. It's certainly borders on slang or "street talk" and is neither professional nor appropriate unless your audience is your 15 year old buddies.

      Just because the sender feels he can "relax" his vocabulary, that is no excuse to not be courteous or professional. This is business after all.

      And with me, it's not just "dude" and "bro" that should be saved for the street. Swearing, most slang, racial remarks, sexual references, and the dreaded "F word" have no place in your marketing talk.

      I know others will disagree, but the crudeness of the Internet seems to be getting worse everyday.
      {this was snipped for brevity}
      Personally, there are 4 people in the world who are allowed to call me "bro" without me taking it as they are presuming a relationship we don't have. "Dude"? To me it's not a proper way to talk to anyone you have respect for. To be quite honest, Any time I've used the word "dude" in referring to someone, it's almost always right after they just did something offensive and stupid. I try not to use that word often.

      The people allowed to call me "bro" are my one brother and my three sisters. That's it. Nobody else currently has permission to call me "bro" without me taking it as they presume we have a closer relationship than we actually do.
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    • Profile picture of the author fern
      Originally Posted by Steve B View Post

      To me, neither term is endearing and it shows a lack of respect. It's certainly borders on slang or "street talk" and is neither professional nor appropriate unless your audience is your 15 year old buddies.

      Just because the sender feels he can "relax" his vocabulary, that is no excuse to not be courteous or professional. This is business after all.

      Steve
      I so agree. It seems disrespectful to address someone that way, especially if you are trying to get them to buy from you. I get a little annoyed at being referred to as "buddy" as well. If they want me to buy from them, then show a little respect. -Old Lady Fern
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    • Originally Posted by Steve B View Post


      In fact, I am one of the men in this world that don't want to be called "dude" or "bro" either.

      To me, neither term is endearing and it shows a lack of respect. It's certainly borders on slang or "street talk" and is neither professional nor appropriate unless your audience is your 15 year old buddies.

      Just because the sender feels he can "relax" his vocabulary, that is no excuse to not be courteous or professional. This is business after all.

      Besides, the latest statistics I've seen suggest that women make up the majority of Internet users these days . . . they are not an audience you can afford to offend.

      Steve
      First: Just because you think these terms show a lack of respect, it doesn't mean you have any clue what you're on about. You clearly don't. I would place far more trust in an individual who addresses me the way he addresses his friends. Slang and all. At least then I can get a real feel for what the lad is like. Compare that to the people pleasers who are afraid to tell it like it is and let it all hang out; warts and all. You think those people are more trustworthy because they didn't try to offend you? Or less trustworthy? Clearly you have a mental block there.

      Second: Slang and street talk SHOULDN'T be kept outside of business. People are people, plain and simple. If you act one way out on the street, but another way when addressing me, how am I to know which one is the real you? Chances are if you hold back your true personality, I suspect there's a lot more you're holding back too. This is just common sense.

      Third: Any person who gets offended by what another person says in HIS business, is an idiot, and therefore, not someone I ever want to work with. In fact, watching what you say in fear of offending a woman clearly shows a lack of respect. After all, isn't this all about equal respect for both men and women. It is, and therefore, I always address men and women the exact same way. If either of them get offended, I'll fire them as customers immediately.

      I run MY business the way I want to run it. I'll say whatever the hell I like as long as it doesn't infringe on another persons rights. And NO "not being offended" is not a bloody right. Anyone who doesn't like it, can ignore it.

      Fourth: Just because women make up the majority of Internet users today, doesn't mean you have to include them in your marketing. Same goes for men.

      Personally, I think using "Bros" and "Dudes" is a bit silly, considering the guys list had a lot of women on it. That didn't make any sense. However, it certainly isn't unprofessional, sexist or lacking in respect to use such words in YOUR business. Anyone who thinks it is, is clearly not thinking as an individual and needs some alone time to figure out why they have a NEED impose their own backward beliefs onto someone else. Again, if you don't like it, ignore it.

      There's a great lesson in this thread for up and coming marketers. Look at what the majority of people are saying here in this thread. Now, go do the opposite, because you can be certain, the majority are always wrong.

      You know you're on the right path when you have a bunch of nitwits telling you what you should and shouldn't say in your own bloody business.

      If we were to take the advice given by the majority of commenters in this very thread. We'd all be spineless wimps with not an ounce of real personality.

      Anyone who tells you that slang and jargon have no place in business, are not to be trusted. I am, and so are you, the same person when you buy a product, as you are when sitting in the pub talking to your friends.

      Open up your inbox right now and read the messages. I bet most of them are boring, mundane trite that look the same as all the rest. And what you're told to do, is follow suit. Feck that. I repel people in order to pull others closer. That's what polarizing is all about - and if you aren't using it in your emails, you're being ignored by the vast majority of people. Why? Because you're competing for the lions share of the attention while sounding like everyone else. And by the way: The most prolific and respected email marketers in the business, ALL polarize and use slang & jargon in their emails, because they realise that EMAIL is a personal thing. You MUST be personal. And to be personal, you certainly shouldn't be censoring yourself.

      Sure, some nitwits won't like it, but I guarantee you that the people who do, the people who DO get you, will be much more loyal. That's how you build, not a list of subscribers, but a list of loyal fans. You've heard that smaller lists can out pull larger lists before, right? You know why? Because the people with these smaller lists have a much more personal connection with the people on their email lists.

      Wouldn't it be nice to just let your amazing content do the relationship building thing for ya? It would, but you know what? You haven't got the best content. And while everyone else out there is trying to "out content" each other, it's TRUST that builds the most loyal following. And what's the best way to build trust? You guessed it, it's by showing the character BEHIND the content. That's what people care more about these days.

      Pandering to the majority and trying to people please by being "professional" reeks of insecurity. And by the way, "professionalism" has absolutely nothing to do with the language you use. Leave the people pleasing to the politicians, because I can tell you this much: now more than ever people are looking to follow REAL people who aren't afraid to let it all hang out, warts and all. Isn't that the whole point of email anyway.

      Who do you trust online? To most, this is a very difficult question to answer, because let's face it, anybody can act professional and tell you what you want to hear. It's easy. Everyone is doing it. And so, follow what everyone is doing and watch as you get the same results as everyone. In a business with a 90%+ failure rate, you really have to ask yourself, whether you should EVER listen to the majority. You certainly shouldn't.

      Look at the nitwits in this thread who think it's unprofessional and disrespectful to use the words "bros" and dudes" in an email subject line. Do you seriously think these people have a firm grasp on reality? They don't. And that's not an opinion. It's a fact. They love to blammer on about "the right way" to talk to YOUR email subscribers. Truth is, industry norms are set, obeyed and reinforced by the mediocre majority, who earn average, or below average incomes and never really rise to the top.

      Success is about behaviour. You can't get the great results created by the profound minority if you emulate the behavior of the mediocre majority. Most email lists will have a large proportion of fence sitters. You know, the people who really couldn't care less about you, your business or the products you sell. You don't want fence sitters on your email lists. You want people to choose a side. They're either on your side of the fence, or they're on the other side. In order to build a list of raving fans, you must repel some people in the process.

      As Dan Kennedy so rightly said, "If you haven't pissed someone of by lunchtime, you're not doing much of anything"

      Look at the majority of people in this thread, and notice how easily they're offended. Are they really the people you want dictating how you run YOUR business? Or would it make much more sense to build a business around people who are more like you? The answer is obvious, unless, of course, you're one of those nitwits who gets offended by what another person says.

      And once again, "not being offended" is not a right.

      - Declan
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      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
        Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty View Post

        Anyone who doesn't like it, can ignore it.
        Clearly leading by example on that one contributing the longest, most emotional post thus far in response to something you didn't like...
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        • Profile picture of the author David Keith
          Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

          Clearly leading by example on that one contributing the longest, most emotional post thus far in response to something you didn't like...
          His is the longest....damn you Declan...I though I had that one for sure...lol.

          My interest in this thread is pretty much the same as my interest in many threads. To help and to educate.

          I just happened to be in the minority in this thread due to politics and emotions.

          As I predicted in this thread, there is now another thread running about the weight loss market, and several of the same posters here are over there saying to not try to serve everyone in the weight loss market, but rather to pick a sub niche like women who just had a bay and try to serve just that niche.

          Sounds a heck of a lot like what I have been saying In this thread. But there it's good advice and here it's discrimination. I get it....its due to extenuating circumstances, but it is kinda funny that I was able to so accurately predict it would happen that way.
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          • Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

            His is the longest....damn you Declan...I though I had that one for sure...lol.

            My interest in this thread is pretty much the same as my interest in many threads. To help and to educate.

            I just happened to be in the minority in this thread due to politics and emotions.

            As I predicted in this thread, there is now another thread running about the weight loss market, and several of the same posters here are over there saying to not try to serve everyone in the weight loss market, but rather to pick a sub niche like women who just had a bay and try to serve just that niche.

            Sounds a heck of a lot like what I have been saying In this thread. But there it's good advice and here it's discrimination. I get it....its due to extenuating circumstances, but it is kinda funny that I was able to so accurately predict it would happen that way.

            It's the old "don't look at what they say; look at what they do" thing, you know? Most people are flakes anyway. It's no surprise they backtrack on previous statements they've made. After all, it's impossible for a flake to be consistent.

            By the way: I made damn sure my comment was longer than yours, David. Size counts
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          • Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

            His is the longest....damn you Declan...I though I had that one for sure...lol.

            My interest in this thread is pretty much the same as my interest in many threads. To help and to educate.

            I just happened to be in the minority in this thread due to politics and emotions.
            .
            You happened to be in the minority because you are right, David.
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          • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
            Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

            My interest in this thread is pretty much the same as my interest in many threads. To help and to educate.
            Education is a two way street.

            Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

            I just happened to be in the minority in this thread due to politics and emotions.
            People expressed their opinions -naturally based on emotion.

            Many don't like "bro" and "dude". Heed it or not, it's your prerogative, but the info is there to use as you see fit. Most would take away the fact that those labels aren't an asset...
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            • Profile picture of the author David Keith
              Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

              Education is a two way street.



              People expressed their opinions -naturally based on emotion.

              Many don't like "bro" and "dude". Heed it or not, it's your prerogative, but the info is there to use as you see fit. Most would take away the fact that those labels aren't an asset...
              Did I ever defend or say that was probably a smart thing for most people to do? Quotes Where I said that please.
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              • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

                Did I ever defend or say that was probably a smart thing for most people to do? Quotes Where I said that please.
                Every one of your posts has been based upon generalization including unfitting analogies.

                If it's not the smart thing for most people to do, why do you propose that your position in this thread is to teach?
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                • Profile picture of the author David Keith
                  Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

                  Every one of your posts has been based upon generalization including unfitting analogies.

                  If it's not the smart thing for most people to do, why do you propose that your position in this thread is to teach?
                  Because from my second post on where I clearly stated I didn't think the specific action was smart, but the idea of niche market and target based on demographic s was smart and right.

                  Then many people in this thread decided that targeting based on demographics was discriminatory and wrong. It was the popular thing to do here because someone in the statistical minority had asked why are they not targeting me with their emails...ie. using bro.

                  Why are the people here not jumping all over the idea of targeting women in that other thread running right now about entering the weight loss market?
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                  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                    Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

                    Why are the people here not jumping all over the idea of targeting women in that other thread running right now about entering the weight loss market?
                    I'm not sure since my stance wasn't really related to the use of the terms being sexist rather than ridiculous.
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                    • Profile picture of the author David Keith
                      Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

                      I'm not sure since my stance wasn't really related to the use of the terms being sexist rather than ridiculous.
                      Exactly. I agree here. I think the execution of targeting in this instance was poor at best. But I certainly stand by the first post I made which was maybe the op was not the intended market....ie....the list owner was not targeting the demographic the op was classifying herself with here.

                      In this case gender, but it could have just as easily been another demographic.

                      Say for instance an email...like many in mmo that's supposes I am broke and live with my mom...which is far from the case in my situation.

                      But I could have started a thread that said "why do list owners think everyone on their lists is broke and lives with their mom".

                      In that instances, most people would have said because that's likely to be close to right for many on your list. They would not have said as was said here that they should have been income level neutral because not everyone on your list is broke...even though we know that people with low incomes make up the majority of most mmo lists.

                      It was the gender thing that made many take it to the discrimination discussion....not the idea of targeting based on demographics.
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      • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
        This is a fascinating thread.

        Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty View Post

        I repel people...
        Post of the year Declan.

        Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

        I am not a professional... I don't try to be.
        .... I walk into their office in khaki shorts and flip flops.
        Interesting strategy. Dress for non-success.


        Putting it all together ...

        One can have a very small, but very responsive client list by showing up unshaven, not showered, in a ratty but comfy t-shirt, intentionally being rude, offensive, and picking boogers out of your nose because if a nitwit or idiot woman, or man, (or black or Jew depending on the type of offensiveness) is actually offended and values style over results they are not worth having as a customer.


        We apparently run in different circles. Your results had better be off the chart spectacular and not obtainable by anyone else, with an already existing reputation so prospects know what to expect.


        As for Mr. Kennedy, who is repeatedly taken out of context.

        This is what he actually says:

        "I once counseled a struggling attorney who couldn't understand why he wasn't attracting or keeping solid business clients. The day he drove me from his office to a lunch meeting in his canary-yellow, four-year old pickup truck, I told him why. Of course, he protested mightily. He loved his truck, it was paid for, it shouldn't matter. But his practice started picking up when he started driving a Cadillac."

        (No BS Business Success, page 78.)

        "To be perceived, without risk of exception, as a successful entrepreneur, you must match the image of a successful entrepreneur. To be perceived, without risk of exception, as successful and trustworthy in your field, you must match the image of a successful person in your field."

        (No BS Business Success, page 77.)

        "Whether I walk on stage in a suit or in jeans has nothing to do with the quality or value of the speech I'll deliver, but it will have everything to do with how that speech is received.... I [have] always enjoyed greater sales with [a dark navy or black, pinstriped suit]."

        (No BS Business Success, page 77.)

        .
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        • Profile picture of the author David Keith
          O
          Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

          This is a fascinating thread.



          We apparently run in different circles. Your results had better be off the chart spectacular and not obtainable by anyone else, with an already existing reputation so prospects know what to expect

          .
          I am sure we do Brian. You are a very well educated guy with a degree. I am just a n average dude with a high school diploma. I have never had a real job of any sort. You have a professional career.

          But yes, my results are off the charts. The day I turned 18 I sold a business for more than double what wf sold for...that was almost 20 years ago to.

          Most of my friends that have taken paths similar to yours can't come with me on vacations because they have to work. Something I have never had to do. It's part of what makes my khaki shorts work at business meetings.

          I know they need me and I don't need them at all. If they don't pick me, I just head to the beach and grab a drink. That shines through. That makes them realize that whatever this guy is doing has him getting results the others don't appear to be able to get.

          When you do what others are doing so as not to cause any hurt feelings, you are almost certainly going to get the results the average people get doing that. If that's ok with you, then I suggest you do that.

          But if you want take a chance that maybe you can have extraordinary success by having an angle that is not safe then it's quite likely you might just make it work out....if you are determined enough.

          In the mmo niche, you can only make the text so big and so red...at some point you need an angle....most people do anyway.

          I am on at least one of your lists Brian. I don't have a doubt in my mind that I could dramatically increase your income...based on what I see from your lists that I am on. But we won't ever go there because you are not my target market. You are turned off by my unedited posts and lack of capitalization most times. That's ok with me too. I ain't a bit mad about that. We will keep doing things differently and there is nothing wrong with that for either of us.

          Which is pretty much exactly the point of this thread. I have been defending the right to target based on demographics...others here think we should all try to serve every demographic represented on our lists...which is just impossible to do.

          It seems some here think that by trying to serve everyone we would all be doing a better job of serving everyone and making more money by not eliminating some of our market. As if it's better to try to engage the entire market neutrally rather than to relate to a sub niche of the bigger market.

          And Brian, you don't see the irony in quoting snippets of posts and asserting those snippets accurately represent the entire point of the post in the exact same post where you call out others for taking stuff out of context?

          Based on that snippet alone, you would assume my points are just to be as unprofessional as possible if you really want to succeed...lol. Something I don't think even you believe I meant or believe to be true. But you intentially took stuff out of context to try to make some point and personal type attack. No big deal, but why?
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

          One can have a very small, but very responsive client list by showing up unshaven, not showered, in a ratty but comfy t-shirt, intentionally being rude, offensive, and picking boogers out of your nose because if a nitwit or idiot woman, or man, (or black or Jew depending on the type of offensiveness) is actually offended and values style over results they are not worth having as a customer.
          .
          Great post!

          Only one thing though - none of those things are actually whats offensive - its that all of them say

          "I don't give a rip about you as my customer. My preferences come first, what I am comfortable with comes first and I am my overriding agenda. Its my world pay me rent"

          Your results had better be off the chart spectacular and not obtainable by anyone else,
          Only in Guru Land is that ever the case
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          • Profile picture of the author David Keith
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            Great post!

            Only one thing though - none of those things are actually whats offensive - its that all of them say

            "I don't give a rip about you as my customer. My preferences come first, what I am comfortable with comes first and I am my overriding agenda. Its my world pay me rent"



            Only in Guru Land is that ever the case
            That's not at all what I am saying anyway. I am saying you are under no obligation to partake of my services.

            I have services that fit some people's needs....but not everyone's needs. If my services don't fit your needs then I understand and we can go our separate ways.

            But I am under no obligation to offer whatever particular service you want me to offer you today just because you want me to.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

              That's not at all what I am saying anyway. I am saying you are under no obligation to partake of my services.
              Oh I hear you on that. I have told people I don't want their money and don't want to work with them and they are in shock. My favorite one was a business owner asking me "why should we consider you?" and my answer being "Don't have to I have decided that I don't want to do business with you".

              But No I am talking about your scenario where they have already paid and you walk into an office with flip flops and shorts just because its what you want to do even when you know (or should) that thats not the way they dress when doing business.

              Theres not a whole lot of different ways of interpreting that besides what you want comes first.
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              • Profile picture of the author David Keith
                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                Oh I hear you on that. I have told people I don't want their money and don't want to work with them and they are in shock. My favorite one was a business owner asking me "why should we consider you?" and my answer being "Don't have to I have decided that I don't want to do business with you".

                But No I am talking about your scenario where they have already paid and you walk into an office with flip flops and shorts just because its what you want to do even when you know (or should) that thats not the way they dress when doing business.

                Theres not a whole lot of different ways of interpreting that besides what you want comes first.
                I do see your point, and have been told that before.

                But in those situations, the potential clients already pretty much knew who I was and what I was about.

                And when I said I was paid to be there. Usually we are talking about traveling costs and a relatively small retainer type fee to show they are serious. On the order of low single digits percentages of the overall potential spend

                Usually an amount both parties would walk away from at the drop of a hat type of thing.
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

                  I do see your point, and have been told that before.

                  But in those situations, the potential clients already pretty much knew who I was and what I was about..
                  If that's the case then I get entirely where you are coming from and more power to you. You have the right to run your business and present yourself the way you wish as long as you are not imposing it on a paying customer that is unaware of how you do business. As long as they know what they are getting then its honest and not selfish at all.

                  and props with the way you have reasoned and given rational come backs in this thread.........dude.
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              • Profile picture of the author discrat
                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                . My favorite one was a business owner asking me "why should we consider you?" and my answer being "Don't have to I have decided that I don't want to do business with you".

                .
                I love it. Classic. That's what working for yourself is all about
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
        David,

        I still don't think you get what I, at least, am saying. Nothing emotional at all.

        1. If the list/sales copy starts off slanted towards Catholics, work at home moms, dudes, people living out of their car or whatever, then by all means use whatever slang or language or actions that will resonate with that group.

        If everything about the sales copy is geared towards Americans and a Brit happens to sign up then the Brit is clearly not the target market. If the Brit feels left out or discriminated against because of all the US focused words, pictures, point of view, etc. then it's just too bad so sad. The list and product is for Americans and while others can buy, everything will be geared towards Americans and it should be clear from the get go.

        2. If there is a generic product, let's say an ebook about how to lose weight or a WP plugin or a MS Word template, and the sales copy is generic (geared towards people/buyers not a particular demographic) from the get go then it should stay generic and not geared towards a particular demographic.

        Part of your argument is that the WP plugin which is in the beginning geared towards generic buyers, should be able to then be marketed directly to a particular segment.

        So let's say that after being generic, the seller sends out an email that says and is directed to those about to retire or older folks. I can see that. I can see getting an email that says something like, "hey it's Mark from XYZ Plugins. I've got a special message today geared towards those that are close to retirement. See when my dad wanted to start a blog to supplement his Social Security income he..."

        I think that is perfectly okay as long as the rest of the group - people that aren't older - aren't left out of all future emails AFTER buying and assuming that this plugin was for them too.

        Now the seller can segment his list at this point. He or she now knows that the people that responded to the retirement email are either retired, getting close or have some other interest in things for retirees - maybe they are supporting or wanting to help their parents or something. Those that responded put on a retired segment. But the rest of the people need to continue with generic language.

        3. People shouldn't claim they are doing something based on demographics if they are assuming and not knowing what the demographic is. There is no way to know if jj3345@ ya hoo.com is a man, woman, Jew, CEO, secretary, or anything else.

        Now let's say that on the signup form there is a field for Sex or Religion or Number of Cats. By all means sell to the demographic that you want to. But it is rude for a dog lover to assume that the emails will be about dogs but then to find out it's all about cats.

        If the list owner finds that 60% of those that sign up are cat lovers then segment the list IF the signup form is generic so that you don't lose the dog or ferret or rabbit lovers.

        The problem is when we sign up for "17 Ways to Keep Your Furry Friend Warm and Safe" and I assume you mean mice but you mean tigers.

        If the product is for dudes then do the dude thing whole hog from the beginning. If it isn't, then don't change midstream. It would be kind of like you showing up with a suit and tie on the first meeting and then after the sale showing up with flip flops and shorts.

        Don't argue that mouse owners aren't the target market when they complain. Make it clear from the beginning and act accordingly.

        4. Of course, you can piss off who you want to. It's obvious some don't care, and that's okay, if someone is offended by language or whatever. But there is no reason to limit income when you can have your cake and eat it too - speak to the dudes and the broads and collect both of their money.

        5. Besides dude and bro, I don't like to be called someone's buddy, buddy.

        Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author Boonqueesha
    It all comes down to the demographic and how best to communicate with them. It's the same for how you want to represent yourself. I personally find "TheLazyAssStoner" to be a little too edgy and off-putting for the mature crowd, but the guy marketing himself that way is doing really well. You can't fix what isn't broken.
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  • Profile picture of the author kk075
    That's right. The moral to this story is to start every other email with, "Hey Hawtie!" Then you're definitely being gender-neutral.

    Obviously that was a joke and a bad one at that, but I couldn't resist. I've found that the more personal you can make a page of copy, the better it will perform in any channel. So if I was writing a sales letter for Maxim, for example, then I'd be tempted to start it off with, "Hey Stud-". And yes, I do know that some women read Maxim, but I think the instant connection to the guys would outweigh the women who questioned that tone. Then again, Maxim writes specifically to a certain kind of man so this is a very specific example.

    In the vast majority of cases though, I'll open a piece with, "Hey <first name>". If it's super formal, then I'll go for their last name. And if it's a niche with a very specific audience, then I'll try to invent a signature opening that I use every time (like, "Hello Fellow Marketing Guru-"). The point in any situation is to create a relationship that will resonate in the reader's mind.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    being gender neutral is trying to cater to both groups. there are differences in what men and women react to from a marketing perspective almost regardless of what you are trying to market. ignore that at your own peril as a marketer.

    the idea that every generic type marketing newsletter should try to attract both men and women is bordering on insane.

    advertisers on tv target certain ads to women and certain ads to men. thats been happening since the idea of marketing was created.

    some of you have drank way too much of the politicaly correctness juice. i dont even have a marketing newlseeter, but if i did, me addressing my subscribers as "dudes" and therefor slanting my tone and such to men is a far cry from referring as women as "bitches" as you suggest. the later is very derogatory and meant to degrade...the former is simple meant to help connect and identify with a legitimate group of society that are ok with the term "dude"

    all this professionalism talk is hilarious to me. i have been chastised by many men in suits who didn't like me wearing khaki shorts to a 5 figure consult. i always responded with something to the affect of "if your suits make you so much smarter than my khakis make me, why the hell did yall hire me".

    times have changed. the long tail affect has splintered just about everything. "professional" is very vague these days...it doesn't mean what it once did. many of the riches folks in the world these days "professionals" wear shorts to work.

    i routinely do professional consulting in a bathing suit. is that professional? My clients dont give a crap what i wear because i can get them the results. a tie doesn't make me more intelligent or a better marketer, it just makes me uncomfortable.

    there is absolutely nothing wrong with a newsletter using language that attracts a male audience and make a female feel as if that message wasnt meant for them...news flash...it wasn't.

    again, i will say, the marketeer in question almost certainly has no clue what he is doing like so many others in this niche these days. I would bet 6 figures of my own money the guy hasnt tested this. but the reality is that talking in a way that attracts men and makes women feel a bit of an outsider is perfectly fine.

    and watch, these same guys that are hear yelling that men and women are the same and that you should be gender neutral will be talking about how important niche marketing is in other threads. as if somehow the fact that men and women see, think, and react differently to all sorts of marketing messages is not relevant stuff when it comes to finding a niche.

    this is almost comical to watch everyone try to outflank others to be so politically correct. men and women are different. they just are. you can keep saying they are not, but it wont make it true.

    and notice, i am not saying better / worse. i am saying different. there are exceptions to every rule, but on average men an women definitely have some notable differences marketers should be aware of.
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  • Profile picture of the author teeowl
    I am a man and I talk like a man. I don't really like being neutral and in most cases I always assume my customers are men... This is the same mentality of most marketers in the make money online/internet marketing niche.

    Originally Posted by Melody View Post

    Having been in the marketing world for a few years now (okay, a few decades now), I have always tried to be very 'neutral' in most of my general marketing efforts. Not just gender, but age, race etc - unless it was a very niche specific product that SHOULD be marketed to women, the over 55 crowd etc.

    BUT...it seems that a lot of IMers today are addressing their marketing efforts to a very specific demographic: 'DUDES' and 'BROS'.

    Unfortunately, that leaves out a pretty significant portion of the marketplace, because, trust me, I am neither a dude nor a bro, and I both make and spend a LOT of money online.

    I understand the terms are cool, etc, etc.....but seriously...there are an awful lot of us female types in the IM space - you really might want to re-think your marketing approach and come up with something a little more 'inclusive' than dudes and bros for you next newsletter ...because I know a lot of us are now just hitting the delete button instead of reading your emails....and that is probably not the result you want

    Just sayin'.....

    The Old Broad, Melody
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    • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
      Originally Posted by teeowl View Post

      I am a man and I talk like a man. I don't really like being neutral and in most cases I always assume my customers are men... This is the same mentality of most marketers in the make money online/internet marketing niche.
      women online are a huge demographic and we have lots of money to spend - including in the make money online niche -
      so your assumptions are completely wrong.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        It's interesting how many respond with "I understand...but...." . It's not a topic to argue - there's no right or wrong. It's your list - if you don't care, that's your choice. If your reasoning is that you need to prove to your list that you are a "manly man" you've got more problems than most...

        A few reading this thread may not have considered how use of certain gender specific words might be perceived by those on their lists. Doesn't matter to me if I'm on your list or not. If you are calling me dude or bro, clearly you don't care if I'm on your list, either.
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        Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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        • Profile picture of the author David Keith
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          It's interesting how many respond with "I understand...but...." . It's not a topic to argue - there's no right or wrong. It's your list - if you don't care, that's your choice. If your reasoning is that you need to prove to your list that you are a "manly man" you've got more problems than most...

          A few reading this thread may not have considered how use of certain gender specific words might be perceived by those on their lists. Doesn't matter to me if I'm on your list or not. If you are calling me dude or bro, clearly you don't care if I'm on your list, either.
          i understand but.... ( i had to)

          i dont think its about proving anything to anyone. in my opinion, sex is just another demographic...nothing more from a marketing perspective.

          but a persons sex does on average affect how they respond to various marketing methods and tactics...that is why i absolutely say that sex is relevant and not something to ignore or something that everyone should to try to be as neutral as possible on.

          let me clarify that. mosts lists have no business being either female or male focused. but you are crazy if you think that there is not room in the MMO market for a few lists that are targeted to males or females. meaning the analogies and such that we use to connect with would be slanted to one gender.

          in that regard they are no different from lists in the MMO market that are put out by christian makreters with a christian slant. then there are other list owners who run lists where they cuss a lot more than the occasional curse word to add some affect.

          those christian list owners are not trying to recruit atheists who wanna learn to MMO. they have their angle and their slant and they are sticking to it. those who appreciate and accept that angle stick around, those who don't end up off those lists.

          this thread got kinda crazy when some took the idea of "preaching to YOUR choir" to mean that you should be discriminating against everyone else. Thats not at all what i am saying.

          what i am saying is that you can't be all things to all people and trying to be will end in failure. if you could somehow successfully segment your list by sex, there is a 100% chance you could write your emails and content in a way to each sex that would increase your income over just trying to be gender neutral. that in my opinion is the marketing lesson of this thread.

          i think we can all agree the idea of using "dude" or "bro" to refer to ones list is not very smart unless you have a really good idea of what you are doing and your system is setup in such a way that it makes sense for you to assume most of your subscribers are going to be cool with that.
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      • Profile picture of the author discrat
        Originally Posted by Karen Blundell View Post

        women online are a huge demographic and we have lots of money to spend - including in the make money online niche -
        so your assumptions are completely wrong.
        Yeah, you look at Niches like Weight Loss ,Designer clother, T-shirts like Tee Spring and women are NO question the big buyers online.

        I think too many people here just are in the actual IM niche so this is their Market.

        But it still is really annoying even to some of us guys
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  • Profile picture of the author seobro
    I like the word bro, but then again... I am SEOBRO.

    Back in the 90's I saw a girl say to her friends who were all girls - see ya later guys.

    Who are we to argue. Best of luck on your success.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    I agree with Steve and Brian and one of the very few times I disagree with David.

    I think when people say that Melody isn't the target market they forget that she was target enough to sign up for the newsletter or buy the product. Isn't that the very essence of a target market? Of course, you may always have people that buy things or sign up for things that aren't a fit but...

    Instead of getting the impression that someone chooses to use dude or bro due to some sort of split test, I'm more inclined to believe it's a 14 year old boy working out of their mom's basement after doing his homework and has never done a split test in his life and isn't making any money.

    Why would someone split test that? Why not split test the N word. If that got you more money according to the test would you send out that?

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author David Keith
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      I agree with Steve and Brian and one of the very few times I disagree with David.

      I think when people say that Melody isn't the target market they forget that she was target enough to sign up for the newsletter or buy the product. Isn't that the very essence of a target market? Of course, you may always have people that buy things or sign up for things that aren't a fit but...

      Instead of getting the impression that someone chooses to use dude or bro due to some sort of split test, I'm more inclined to believe it's a 14 year old boy working out of their mom's basement after doing his homework and has never done a split test in his life and isn't making any money.

      Why would someone split test that? Why not split test the N word. If that got you more money according to the test would you send out that?

      Mark
      oh i totally agree mark...its not some split test.

      but at the same time, just because someone ends up on a list doenst mean thats who i wanted there...meaning i may have not been targeting them.

      I guess my point is that men and women are different. and i would bet most of my wealth on the fact that if i segmented a MMO list between men and women i could make more "speaking" in a certain tone to each one than i could by being gender neutral.

      Which means, that if i keep the whole system optimized to target men that i could connect and engage with that group better than i could if i tried to connect with men and women.

      i also agree that the number of business folks who are ok with being referred to as "dudes" is probably fairly small. it doesnt scream "i know what i am doing".

      my point isn't really the idea of using "dude" or not, it was more on the fact that men and women are different. i dont care what you are selling if you are a marketer, you better acknowledge that.

      the big tv advertisers do....the popular tv show makers do.... certain ads run on espn that dont run on hgtv.

      and then we can try to ignore the other elephant in the room here. i absolutely have no doubt in my mind that the majority of people on the average MMO list are in fact men. again, not saying thats good or bad or that women cant be in the MMO market.

      but i have no doubt thats the truth, so if i know that, and i know that keeping subscribers engaged is super important, i would be a fool not to error on the side of slanting my messages towards men more than women.

      i am not arguing that using "dude" is right or that the guy were are talking about had a clue. i am certain he didn't/ but this discussion is interesting to me that so many think we should be marketing to men and women in exactly the same way.

      as for the :"n" word. many rappers do indeed use that word...becasue it helps them engage and identify with a certain group of people... i am certainly not saying its right, merely pointing out that record sales indicate that it has been split tested and including that word does not hurt sales from one group more than it helps form others.
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      • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
        Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

        i absolutely have no doubt in my mind that the [majority (typo)] of people on the average MMO list are in fact men.... i would be a fool not to error on the side of slanting my messages towards men more than women
        When the CEO has a meeting of company managers, 16 men and 4 women, and starts off by slanting his message towards men: "Hey bros, let me tell you about the hooker I banged last night, she was an awesome ...."

        You're OK with that because the men outnumber the women?

        The point is this is a general marketing newsletter. It isn't an ad in Cosmopolitan versus an ad in ESPN Magazine where you can argue a different ad, discussion, split-test or marketing should be slanted towards women in one and men in the other. I'm with you on that issue.

        But that isn't happening here so that scenario is irrelevant.

        In my view it is indefensible to say because men outnumber women that excuses sexism, even if implicit. The hallmark of unlawful discrimination is what you are arguing.

        By approving sexism you perpetuate it. Men outnumber women so it's ok to "alienate" someone at "their expense" and that causes women to delete marketing messages, unsubscribe, feel left out, etc. The result is men continue to outnumber women.

        Starting from a position where men outnumber women that is used as an excuse to justify a hostile environment (because it would be foolish not to tailor messages towards the majority and not be neutral) from which the inevitable result is continued male dominance.

        As far as whether men outnumber women when it comes to IM, the third largest Warrior Forum group is Women on the Web. There may be more interest than you imagine, but it is probably also hard to sustain when the overall environment is full of Hey Bros and it is excused with members promoting the merits of alienating women.

        .
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        • Profile picture of the author Melody
          Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

          The point is this is a general marketing newsletter. It isn't an ad in Cosmopolitan versus an ad in ESPN Magazine where you can argue a different ad, discussion, split-test or marketing should be slanted towards women in one and men in the other. I'm with you on that issue.
          And this is my point exactly. I KNOW that some newsletters/products will be and SHOULD be marketed to a certain vertical/gender/religion/ethnicity/whatever, and I am fine with that.

          Believe me - I used to have a newsletter for women going through menopause, and it was NOT gender neutral, but that was because the market I was going after was women, not men or martians.

          But when I buy a wordpress theme, or the latest traffic software, addressing your buyers as dudes and bros makes both the women and the men over 30 on your list feel a bit alienated.

          Look, the truth is that I have been in male dominated fields all my life. I was the first woman in the SF bay area to own a mortgage brokerage firm, I was one of the first payments consultants in the internet gambling space and one of about 6 women that held key positions in the industry for years, so I am used to being treated like one of the guys.....but come on, this dudes and bros things is just not a good marketing tactic for so many reasons.

          All I am saying is this: why limit your potential customer pool for a generic product by alienating everyone over 30 and female?? You can be casual, you can be yourself and still show some respect for EVERYONE on your list.

          It's not rocket science. It's common sense.

          Mel
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  • Profile picture of the author Mikej413
    There are possibly more women than men in IM due to stay at home moms who want to work at home while keeping an eye on the kids. This is not meant to be sexist and I don't think the dude and bro thing is either. Personally I wouldn't worry about it. Just let the people you are interacting with know that you are a lady and to address you correctly. No need to be rude about it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jennifer Hutson
    I think people are getting way too caught up in the "It isn't politically correct" standpoint.

    It comes down to what works and what doesn't. Every list is different. Whatever testing has shown to bring the best results is what should be implemented.

    To compare using "dude" and "bro" to being sexist is really what's appalling, here. It's slang that a big part of the present generation uses and has never meant to be offensive. I say "dude" all the time (even as a female approaching 30) because I live in a beach town and grew up hearing it. Just about every person I know says it, male and female – even people in the mature demographic. That's just the culture around here.

    Is it professional? Nope. Not even close. But if it's proven to increase sales in your specific list, then you'd be a fool not to continue milking it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Winning34
    I agree with David that it's all about knowing your target audience and sticking to it. Trying to please everyone is usually a recipe for disaster in business.

    Coming back to the gender thing, last night I was searching on google for some WordPress information. I landed on a pink webpage run by women for women. They provided "WP themes for women" which were all pretty and pink with flowers and babies. I clicked on a few articles and they all started with "Listen here gals....." and all the comments were stuff like "You go girl!" lol.

    Some people would argue that the site is shooting themselves in the foot by only "talking to women" but on the contrary, they had carved out a very successful niche for themselves.
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    • Profile picture of the author Melody
      Originally Posted by Winning34 View Post

      I agree with David that it's all about knowing your target audience and sticking to it. Trying to please everyone is usually a recipe for disaster in business.

      Coming back to the gender thing, last night I was searching on google for some WordPress information. I landed on a pink webpage run by women for women. They provided "WP themes for women" which were all pretty and pink with flowers and babies. I clicked on a few articles and they all started with "Listen here gals....." and all the comments were stuff like "You go girl!" lol.

      Some people would argue that the site is shooting themselves in the foot by only "talking to women" but on the contrary, they had carved out a very successful niche for themselves.
      Exactly, they have a target market, and that is what they are marketing to, and that is their choice. It's clear by the design of the site and their marketing approach that they want to deal with women. And that is fine.

      But when I am buying a product that was heavily marketed across all sectors, not at all niche specific, and then the vendor assumes that everyone that bought the product is a dude or bro - that to me is just a baffling marketing approach.

      Melody
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      • Profile picture of the author Winning34
        Originally Posted by Melody View Post

        But when I am buying a product that was heavily marketed across all sectors, not at all niche specific, and then the vendor assumes that everyone that bought the product is a dude or bro - that to me is just a baffling marketing approach.

        Melody
        I agree, it's unprofessional.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    This thread is funny to see how caught up people get. Brian, you keep making wild assertions about bitches and hookers. Of course women find that derogatory.

    And you keep comparing people on a free to join and leave list to employees who are paid to be in that meeting room. Those are very different scenarios. You keep reaching to try to make some point about how talking in a tone to men or women isn't right.

    If I am paying 16 men and 4 women to be at a job and I start talking about the hooker I banged last night that's is totally different than 16 men and 4 women voluntarily getting on my email list and me using terms like guys or dudes. If you can't see the difference then I suppose I am wasting my time with this discussion.

    Any voluntarily joined newsletter is just the same as any channel on your tv you choose to watch. You can flip the channel at any time. And yes, the vast majority of tv stations have demographics that are slanted to either men or women. And yes, those stations and their advertisers speak to that audience. Bu they don't as you suggest call women bitches or whores. They merely provide content and ads that cater to the audience that chose to watch their station.

    The same thing with any newsletter. If I know I have 16 men and 4 women reading my newsletter in the same way ESPN knows they have 16 mil men and 4 mil women watching their station the ads and content will reflect the interests of most of that audience. Duh....

    I am saying that some newsletters can and should target certain demographics...men, women for instance. In fact, I have no doubt that if mmo newletter geared towards women was available, it would have a solid following....not a damn thing wrong with that.

    Just because a product is generic doesn't mean boy and girls buy or use it for the same reasons....that's the markektng part of marketing generic products....catering to a niche with your generic product.

    When you cater to a certain sex, that's not the same as discriminating or degrading the other sex. If I say this is a mans only newletter, that's discriminating. But if I speak in a certain tone that more men happen to identify with that is not discriminating. If I say we shouldn't let women be in the mmo game...that's discriminating. But me talking in such a way that more men than women identify withis not discrimination.

    Brian, you keep mixing up a lot of stuff... Employees vs voluntary subscribers....real discrimination based on a person sex vs speaking in a manor that more men or women identify with.

    If I put a link up and it somehow went to a different place for my women subscribers that was $5 more....that's descrimination. But saying "hey guys checkout this new software" is not trying to oppress women.

    And for you to keep up the personal attacks as me being sexist or encouraging sexism is way out of line. Nothing I have said encourages people to discriminate against women.

    I am merely saying men and women respond to marketing messages in different ways. Trying to be gender neutral means you are not fully engaging either sex.

    Slanting your marketing to the reasons one group of people buy is not sexists. Ever wonder why beer commercials on the Super Bowl are more about horses and dogs and solider renuions and most ever commercials are about hot girls in bikinis having a good time. It's because Super Bowl demographics are much different than normal nfl game demographics.

    There are more women who voluntarily watch the Super Bowl and the advertiser know this, so they cater their ads accordingly. Is that sexist?

    Beer is a generic product, although like our current example, men consume more of it than women. But when advertisers know the demographics they use different ads to reach those people.

    But somehow you accuse me of being sexist because I suggest that the same can be applied to a mmo newsletter?


    I guess everyone who changes their markektng to fit their voluntary audience is sexist then in your opinion?

    And more than that, we should all do everything possible to make sure we have equal sexual representation on our voluntary lists? Where does this end? Do I need to actively speak to transuxuals too because maybe there are some of them on my list. So now, in your opinion saying hey guys and girls I have a cool new product to show you would be discriminating against them?
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    • Profile picture of the author More Than Tips
      I like the topic and the discussion Melody high 5!

      When I get online I just keep my regular speaking voice pretty much and the thought of treating people the way I like to be treated. I do sometimes type guys/gals because I am conscious about being inclusive. I realize that not everyone is..its cool with me.

      But if you alienate a segment of your own market what good does that do you?

      These days unfortunately there is definitely an irreverent crowd that think its cool to be that way. That is not for me. But more power to you if that works for you.

      We have entire marketing communities of people that mostly steal for a living and find ways to exploit systems for gain.

      People think its cool to take over someones instagram account.

      People use fake avatars of opposite sex.

      People say the words "model after" when most just plain copy and paste as call it their own.

      So for the most part appropriate grammar is not something that will get under my skin the most.
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  • Profile picture of the author salegurus
    Ive got the solution, from now on all list owners should address their subscribers as Earthling (Dear Earthling)... I'm sure the PC Police will be OK with that....
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    • Profile picture of the author kk075
      Originally Posted by salegurus View Post

      Ive got the solution, from now on all list owners should address their subscribers as Earthling (Dear Earthling)... I'm sure the PC Police will be OK with that....
      You're being racist towards aliens and the nutcases who believe that they ascended from an ancient life form that traveled here from a distant galaxy. Why do you hate mentally challenged people?

      (And for those who don't realize it, I was being 110% sarcastic there. Not my opinion at all.)

      That's called a PC Police smack down and it doesn't matter if there's any logic to it or not. The only thing that matters is that there are people gullible enough to buy into it and think that their rights are somehow diminished because others have a different opinion. The "racists" are usually the ones doing the accusing...not those being blamed...and it's a great way to keep our world divided over petty things.
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      • Profile picture of the author More Than Tips
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        • Profile picture of the author goneill
          Have been following this "Dude Bro's " discussion and have found it very interesting.

          I also noticed most of the input was from warriours based in the USA and I wonder if you have ever considered how it comes across to non USA people.

          I personally do not like the term Dude or Bro, it comes across as too slangy or trying to be cool as in street talk.

          I did a search on wiki to understand the meaning and origin and was suprised to find it derived from an Old Scottish word?

          Here is the link and it also gives some insight into USA interpretations which might suprise you.

          Dude - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    • Profile picture of the author Rory Singh
      Originally Posted by salegurus View Post

      Ive got the solution, from now on all list owners should address their subscribers as Earthling (Dear Earthling)... I'm sure the PC Police will be OK with that....
      LMAO

      Thanks
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    • Profile picture of the author agmccall
      Originally Posted by salegurus View Post

      Ive got the solution, from now on all list owners should address their subscribers as Earthling (Dear Earthling)... I'm sure the PC Police will be OK with that....
      And what if you are from Mars???? Do you have some sort of problem with martians??

      al
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  • Profile picture of the author Cyndi Kates
    It can't be any worse than the relationship jv offer running over at a certain affiliate platform. The sales video almost made me sick to my stomach with the 'story' they are using as a presell geared towards women, and yet, the product creator claims they are crushing it with their epc's, ctr, and sales???

    Seems to me, if you are targeting a specific gender for a product, the use of the terms 'dude's and bro's' could work for certain demographics as they might just speak that [exact] language. As others have stated; I certainly wouldn't use these tactics myself, and I too use these words around friends and family having both surfed and rode skateboards in my youth.

    As David said above, to please everyone could be as equally disastrous in certain campaigns, but I choose to not bast*rdize the language, or specific gender, sexes, religions, politics, etc... especially in trying to build lasting business relationships.

    To me, it shares a similar tone as the mention of one specific religion, belief, drug use (legalized or not), or using a tone that offends, as opposed to being optimistic, open-minded, and considerate to others views, beliefs, and sexual gender or orientation.

    However, if you were selling tickets to a Catholic charity or selling a product related to gay marriage, or vying for the legalization of marijuana... it (a specific tone) definitely could be more effective. (*These were just random examples, BTW.)

    However, I too agree... remaining neutral seems more logical, as the OP states; the sender clearly IS NOT trying to intentionally dismay women, but rather doing so by choice of limiting results through his/her poor choice of keeping the context in focus with his/her audience.

    In the end, I'd consider it a win, because anyone that marketer loses... is a possible prospect for another. (*Hopefully, the un-subscriber's experience, doesn't label the whole lot rotten!)
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  • Profile picture of the author larryk56
    I totally agree with you! So many presentations are non - professional and full of slang and crap talk instead of substance.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sojourn
    Ah, Melody! This is a HUGE pet peeve of mine. When I see it, my immediate impression is that the person addressing me with either "dude" or "bro" is unprofessional.

    It stops me from reading any further.

    I get that it may be my age, my gender, my background, or my work experience that causes that reaction and if someone wants to use that in their approach, that's their choice. As long as they understand I'm going to run far away, so be it.

    Even worse is when I receive PM messages or notes in WarriorPlus where the person uses either to address me. "Hey, dude, I've got this new product coming out and thought you might want to promote it..."

    Not going to happen. I'm truly insulted when I see this in what is meant to be a one-on-one communication.

    If you won't even take the time to realize that my picture and my name are clearly female or you think blasting the same message to everyone without at least some attempt to be gender neutral is going to work then I'm not going to make the time to even acknowledge the request.

    I'm a bit mystified that those who use either phrase couldn't come up with some other words to use that are both gender neutral AND still make them sound "cool" or "hip" or "personable" so they don't risk chasing off what may be a perfect target customer (because I assure you, "dude" and "bro" are doing just that...)
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    • Profile picture of the author Melody
      Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post

      Even worse is when I receive PM messages or notes in WarriorPlus where the person uses either to address me. "Hey, dude, I've got this new product coming out and thought you might want to promote it..."

      Not going to happen. I'm truly insulted when I see this in what is meant to be a one-on-one communication.

      If you won't even take the time to realize that my picture and my name are clearly female or you think blasting the same message to everyone without at least some attempt to be gender neutral is going to work then I'm not going to make the time to even acknowledge the request.
      LOL - yes, I have had this happen so many times! Here, on my personal Facebook and LinkedIn pages, and my response is exactly the same as yours.

      While I have to admit I never anticipated this kind of response to my 'venting', it has certainly been better than Friday night TV.

      As to whether it is age, or gender, or maybe a generational issue, it could be but I really don't think it is with me, and I doubt that it is with most of us that object to it. I spent 16 years working in Silicon Valley, and I know more than my share of millionaires who work from home and have never owned a tie. I do a lot of work with banks and a decade ago - that meant getting out the black suit for a meeting - today, it's just as often a blazer and jeans. Business IS a lot more casual than it used to be - and that's more than fine by me. I've been home-based since before it was something to be proud of (yes, we used to try and hide it!)

      But I still think that the sweeping assumption that the IM industry is populated by bros and dudes is an absolute case of tunnel vision, and if you launch a product to the general market - then many of your customers may just happen to be female, and I promise you that we will be much more receptive to your future marketing efforts if you don't ignore us. Not asking you to cater to us, just simply don't insult us by ignoring the fact that we bought your product!

      Melody
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  • Profile picture of the author Brent Stangel
    "But you're a chick, Dude!" ~ Eric Cartman
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  • Profile picture of the author gluckspilz
    This is what Mike Chang wrote in his email newsletter

    "Hey man,

    Most guys think that in order to get ripped muscle with six pack abs you would have to cut out carbs completely...

    But man are they wrong!

    First of all, it is true that carbs can make you fat... Unless you eat them at the right time.

    In fact if you’re eating carbs during this one specific time frame you can actually boost your metabolism AND increase muscle growth!

    So when is the best time to eat carbs?... Click Right Here To Find Out.... etc etc etc"

    I'm sure there are female body builders on his list as well so I guess he will be losing some sales...

    ANYWAY!

    I don't see marketing to a specific audience is a problem. That being said, I wouldn't use the word bro or dude as well.

    From reading the posts on this thread, I actually have no idea what we're discussing any more because I see word like sexism and discrimination and it just scares me...

    I guess the best way to look at this to watch Jay's video (The stoner kid) and read ALL THE COMMENTS!

    It's quite hilarious... But of course, only after you finish your to do list.
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    • Profile picture of the author Melody
      Originally Posted by gluckspilz View Post

      This is what Mike Chang wrote in his email newsletter
      I don't see marketing to a specific audience is a problem. That being said, I wouldn't use the word bro or dude as well.
      That is NOT what the discussion is about - there is nothing wrong with using gender-specific terminology when you need to.

      My peeve is about buying a totally gender neutral product (i.e. a wordpress plugin) and having all follow-up marketing addressed to 'Hey Dude!' or 'Yo, bro!'.

      If you want to be gender specific in your marketing....that's fine...but be consistent from beginning to end....don't take my money upfront and then treat me as though I don't exist afterwards!

      Mel
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      • Profile picture of the author gluckspilz
        Originally Posted by Melody View Post

        That is NOT what the discussion is about - there is nothing wrong with using gender-specific terminology when you need to.

        My peeve is about buying a totally gender neutral product (i.e. a wordpress plugin) and having all follow-up marketing addressed to 'Hey Dude!' or 'Yo, bro!'.

        If you want to be gender specific in your marketing....that's fine...but be consistent from beginning to end....don't take my money upfront and then treat me as though I don't exist afterwards!

        Mel
        If you're going to quote me, at least read the post!

        There are FEMALES Body builders as well so I wouldn't say it's gender specific.

        Either way, I think you didn't read this section where I wrote

        "From reading the posts on this thread, I actually have no idea what we're discussing any more because I see word like sexism and discrimination and it just scares me..."

        If you read the other posts, it's no longer about email marketing any more. It escalated quite quick
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    • Profile picture of the author salegurus
      Originally Posted by gluckspilz View Post


      From reading the posts on this thread, I actually have no idea what we're discussing any more because I see word like sexism and discrimination and it just scares me...
      And that's exactly why i posted...
      I have no dog in this argument and of course i have nothing against our female or male colleagues being offended by being addressed with Dude or Bro etc.

      It's when people start using words such as racist and sexist in this context that annoys me....
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        let me clarify that. mosts lists have no business being either female or male focused. but you are crazy if you think that there is not room in the MMO market for a few lists that are targeted to males or females. meaning the analogies and such that we use to connect with would be slanted to one gender.
        You seem to be arguing with something I didn't say...so....

        If those terms apply to your product - that's fine. It's your choice and not a product I'd be interested in.

        The emails I've personally received using these salutations were not male targeted products - they were general products that would sell to both genders.

        It's clear some marketers are using gender based slang WITHOUT THINKING ABOUT IT. That's not a good way to run a list.
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  • Profile picture of the author ryanbiddulph
    Hi Melody,

    Call me whatever you want as long as you don't call me late for dinner LOL!

    I don't mind it, but then again I am a guy. But I'm a 40 year old guy, so it still could appear to not apply to me. I figure, how someone perceives me or addresses me has nothing to do with me. I don't take it personal. I also know some IMers have a strict, set target market in mind. For each person who deletes these emails the good IMers using the bro/dude approach may get 10 bros or dudes who opened 'em. Nothing personal, to folks who feel alienated; it just is what is it, and all it means is that a prospering marketing of sisters and dudettes is right there for ya Melody, right for the picking

    Signing off from Bali.

    Ryan
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  • Profile picture of the author Randall Magwood
    Originally Posted by Melody View Post

    The Old Gorgeous Broad, Melody
    Sorry cutie, i had to fix that for you.

    And oh... is it okay if my pitch my consulting services to you? With the female market being (obviously) ignored?

    ..............
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  • Profile picture of the author fatcitygirl
    Can't agree more! I just saw someone reply to a comment I made and addressed me as "bro" when it's obvious, I think, that I'm clearly not a bro.
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by fatcitygirl View Post

      Can't agree more! I just saw someone reply to a comment I made and addressed me as "bro" when it's obvious, I think, that I'm clearly not a bro.
      ...but the avatar looks like John Candy from the back.




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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    Beer is a gender neutral product., but those ads with girls in bikinis are target to me...a red blooded American male....they are not targeted to my gf.

    However, those cute beer ads that appear during the Super Bowl are intended to be more gender neutral or maybe even slanted to females.

    They are just speaking to the voluntary market that has self identified themselves. Every nfl game has women views, but they have far more men. So you women get to watch hot bikini girls make beer seem enticing to men. They ran the numbers and realized there are more men who voluntarily watch normal nfl games so they slant their messages that way.

    The Super Bowl presents a different marketing opportunity to market their gender neutral product. Just because a product is gender neutral doesn't mean every marketing message should be meant to target both sexes.

    Saying a product is gender neutral and wanting every marketing message to reflect that is taking the marketing out of generic products. Cell phones are gender neutral,yet if you pay attention, various ads clearly speak to men and women separately in various ways.

    I nor any marketer should be trying to please everyone. Sometimes that means not directing my message to women or men or one of many hundreds of others ways we can segment a market.

    If you are offended by a marketing message, it's almost certain you are not the person the marketing message was directed at. This specific case is much more likely just the case of a crappy unprofessional marketer.

    But all this sexist talk is just nuts. in my opinion, many of the people in this thread are getting way to caught up in being politically correct and trying to serve everyone...which is impossible to do as well as can be done if you chose a market and serve that market and let someone else serve the other markets.

    By definition generic products have a multitude of niches within them. Gender is just one of those.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Seems to me you've taken this as something to "prove" way beyond the initial scope of the OP's comments.

      As a WOMAN, I do not appreciate receiving emails that begin "Hey dude" or "what you doin' bro" - and I HAVE received emails like that from marketers on this forum. If they were selling "ex back" or "viagra" or "attract women", or "he-man abs" I'd unsubscribe because I'm not the target market. It wouldn't bother me but the list is not for me.

      That's not what we are talking about here - as you can clearly see in the OP's comments.

      These are not people on the level of Budweiser. They are often young or inexperienced marketers who are uncomfortable with their own message and not thinking about or planning their marketing approach.

      That's all it is - nothing more.
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      • Profile picture of the author Nightengale
        Amen Melody! You are so right.

        I, too, spend A LOT of money online in the IM space, buying products and services to help me with my online business. The IM and MMO space is dominated by men and I, too, find the 15-year-old-sufer-dude-speak to be highly offensive. It's also NOT professional.

        I've read through the first page of replies, but not all of them. David Keith, you initial response was like a kid arguing with his mother by bringing up a valid, but parallel (and irrelevant) point. A target made up of men was NOT Melody's point.

        Melody WASN'T talking about products/services clearly geared to men (or mostly men) or to a specific age. Her comments weren't anti-niche. She was talking about products/services geared to business owners/IMers in general, yet marketers talking to their audience like they're all 15-year-old surfer dudes.

        And it IS offensive.

        I bought Product Launch Formula a while back. If Jeff Walker talked to me like that, I would never have bought. In fact, PLF is a good example of example of a niche-specific (IM and product launches), gender-neutral product.

        There are a lot of IMers selling stuff that is also niche-specific, gender-neutral stuff that still insist on talking to their audience like they're all 15-year-old boys. It's incredibly offensive.

        In fact, a while back, I stepped back from the IM world completely and went off in search of women who were offering business help, yet didn't speak in "IM-ese" like a 15 year old. I found them. And I've spent A LOT of money with them. In fact, in under 18 months, I spent over $50K with people like that -- primarily BECAUSE they talked and acted like "real" business professionals and not like a 15-year old working out of his mother's basement.

        As a woman IMer, I need:

        1. Business coaching (I've spent nearly $20K...)
        2. How-to info (I've spent thousands for courses like PLF..)
        3. Software (I've spent hundreds for software like Market Samurai and Webinar Jam...)
        4. Etc.

        And most Warriors (and similar types) never saw a penny of the money I spent because of their insistence on talking to me like a 15-year old BOY.

        Our point is: if you're selling IM-specific info, but not gender-specific info, then 1. be professional and 2. don't alienate the women in your audience!

        I've recently been purchasing more from Ryan Deiss, whose audience is mainly men between 40-60 with a high income. I'm most definitely not his primary target audience. I'm a woman under 40 and don't have a high income.

        Ryan's marketing is definitely geared to men, yet it's still professional and doesn't alienate the women in his audience.

        Even if you're selling primarily to men, consider your level of professionalism. If you're selling B2B (which you are if you're selling IM products and services), a level of professionalism is always in order. For me, professionalism is key. I work hard to be professional in my own business. And I want to buy from other professionals, not a 15 year old in his mother's basement (or someone who sounds like he is).

        Hope that clarifies it.

        Michelle
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    Kay, i have nothing to prove really. You have seen my posts enough to know i am merely engaging some people here in an honest and thought provoking marketing discussion... it sure beats all the "where can i invest $100 to make $500 by next weekend' stuff we see around here. i am also confident enough in my knowledge to be perfectly fine having the dissenting opinion.

    i totally agree the person the OP refers to in all likely hood did this for all the wrong reasons that many here mention.

    But that doesnt mean there is not a very real marketing message to be learned here.

    many of the regulars here have posted very similar comments to most of what i say in this thread many many times when it comes to segmenting a list. But somehow if it starts with a woman being offended by the words "bro" or "dudes" we should all ignore the real world marketing things going on and just "thank" the post?

    clearly i understand the difference between some of the wild assertions Brian makes about calling women bitches or hoes or talking about banging hookers. i am certainly not justifying that sort of stuff in any way shape or form.

    kay, i am not going to go through all your posts, but i am certain you have weighed in on the idea of segmentation and engaging ones audience when it comes to building a relationship with a list.

    and i have no doubt you know that stuff is important. but somehow many here have gotten very emotionally attached to defending the minority (women in this case) as if its some crime to speak or slant a message to a specific gender. it simply isn't...its smart marketing if done right. thats why the big boys do it that way...they know what they are doing.

    gender is nothing more than another metric by which to target people from a marketing perspective. Virtually every marketing channel that a person goes to advertise on will offer demographics. Gender is always on that list. in fact, its often times listed as the first possible segmentation option. Why is it there? because it is absolutely something anyone who chooses to market there should be aware of.

    I am almost baffled by many here who somehow think we should ignore one of the most obvious demographic targeting options and just act as if its not relevant to marketing virtually any product...including generic ones.

    every generic product has niche markets within it...women and men are two of the big macro niches within most generic markets. I am confused as to how people can argue otherwise with a straight face. maybe its because we dont see much in the way of gender targeting in the MMO niche because so many are just playing follow the leader here and there really are very very few true pro level experienced marketers in the MMO space.

    now, one can make the argument that the average marketer who doesn't fully understand all of these things and the dynamics of targeting would be far better off being as gender neutral as possible. That i totally agree with.

    But i have absolutely no doubt in my mind that if a list in the MMO niche was properly segmented between men and women i could make more money and serve both groups better by speaking with slang and analogies to each group than i could by acting as if gender didn't matter and trying to remain gender neutral.

    i cant for the life of me see how any of those of you who are pro level marketers would disagree with that? just look at the big boy advertisers with all ther money who are representing multi million dollar companies. They know that targeting men and women separately is smart marketing...even when they are offering a generic product.

    generic products dont require generic marketing...they almost always require using many methods to target and market to several different sub-niches individually.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Claiming that these people are doing proper marketing, testing, segmenting, etc. according to their demographic research and using proper marketing principles to cater to their base should be just as offensive as the sexist or other labels because anyone should be able to see that most of the ones being complained about aren't doing ANY of that. They simply don't know how to talk or act professionally. Or don't care. Period.

    I have never seen a marketer on the WF or well known guru types, for example, to ask my sex. If they had, then there might be an argument about it being about the marketing. But they haven't. On the other hand, Budweiser knows who is watching the super bowl. Joe WannaBeAnIMGuruWhenIGraduate doesn't.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      Claiming that these people are doing proper marketing, testing, segmenting, etc. according to their demographic research and using proper marketing principles to cater to their base should be just as offensive as the sexist or other labels because anyone should be able to see that most of the ones being complained about aren't doing ANY of that. They simply don't know how to talk or act professionally. Or don't care. Period.
      Exactly.

      Although it's arguably worse.

      Someone engaging in boorish behavior probably only needs to be told one once: hey, you're not cool and your language isn't appropriate and costing you subscribers and reputation. Problem solved.

      But to justify the behavior and suggest it's OK to intentionally be sexist (or racist or whatever) and "alienate" customers at their "expense" because they are in the minority, or because "demographics" are available is troubling.

      The marketing, positioning, segmenting, etc, usually happens before the purchase. Not after a generic purchase of something like a WordPress plugin.

      McDonalds might have a billboard with an African-American spokesperson in one neighborhood, and a billboard with an Asian spokesperson in another. I'm reasonably confident that if you sign up to get a coupon on their website the company does not email it with a message starting "Hey Bro", "Hey Nig*a" or anything else that has attempted to be justified.

      Someone might say, OK, they have said, Brian, you're using wild language and that is not what I meant.

      Well ... if a person makes a proposition it is OK to use to language that "alienates" women because they are in the minority, lets explore the ramifications.

      As I have done in many posts over the years, and what I get paid to do, extreme examples are used to make a point. While one may agree overt sexism is of course wrong, less overt sexism can be just as harmful. Hence the thread.

      If one is going to assert it is OK to use "Bro" and alienate women off a marketing list, it is no different than asserting it is OK to refer to harsher and more explicit language. Same purpose. Just different words. Where is the line drawn?

      In fact, since the proposition has been made more money can be made by appealing to locker room talk and driving off the women, then isn't the argument to be as offensive as possible to women? The more sexist you are the better?

      I don't think this is baffling or difficult at all. An "offensive" segmentation strategy involves pre-purchase positioning. After purchase of a generic product crapping on the women who just paid you money or signed up to your newsletter is not appropriate.

      .
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  • Profile picture of the author gluckspilz
    MAYBE... Just MAYBE! We're also forgetting the fact that the person who writes the newsletter simply just speaks like that their whole life! For ALL we know, it could easily be a female who loves saying "Hey bro"

    In Australia, you hear the word, 'Cuz, 'Mate', 'Bro' from both genders TO both genders.

    But then again, this thread has escalated to politics so how about we all just focus on marketing and let's focus on making money!
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    ok, so once someone purchases a generic product, then you should treat them all exactly the same and market to them exactly the same way in an effort to get them to buy from you again? that is just crazy to think that marketers actually think that is correct.

    marketing doesn't stop once a purchase is made...we are all familiar with terms like funnel, systems, backend sales.... that is still marketing. its done after one sale has been made, but different demographics make 2nd and 3rd purchases for very different reasons. again, gender is just one of many ways to segment and target market a sub-niche of your market. i just dont see how folks can not see that.

    i have said countless time that the person the op is referring to almost certainly had absolutely no clue what they were doing and did what they did out of ignorance...not as part of a marketing strategy. i have never tried to defend their actions. but i did point out that "talking to men or women, or chritians or muslims is far different from actively trying to degrade or oppress someone who is not a part of whatever group you have chosen to "speak to"..

    this is idea that somehow all purchasers of a generic product suddenly all become the exact same and that they are motivated to buy 2nd and 3rd products for the exact same reasons is just as crazy as thinking they all bought the original product for the same reasons.

    so brian you finally conceded that targeting different markets pre-sale makes sense for many reasons. ie using people of various races or gender in your marketing depending upon your audience and such.....but now you want to argue that targeting different groups of buyers after a sale has been made is sexists, racist.....? and no, i am not talking about using the "n" word as you did. i am talking about simple slanting a message to a demographic....be that christians, athesesist, race, religion, gender, income level or one of many other demographics.

    if your marketing ends with a product purchase and then you treat all those people as if they all bought because of the exact same motivating factors then that is just nuts....i get that is high level targeting and well beyond the scope of most folks on this forum, but i know some of you are at the level where you fully understand what i am saying here..

    now Brian, you ask where the line is drawn which is the exact question i asked you earlier. if my list of voluntary subscribers is 99.9% guys and girls and i say "guys and gals" i have alienated the transexuals...did i not? i did not include language that was inclusive of them. so where is that line. is guys and gals inclusive enough to suit you? what percentage is it ok to "not speak to" when it comes to any demographic...not jsut gender? many here are all caught up in the girl vs boy thing.

    gender is just one way to target or as brian would say discriminate against all the other groups you dont target...using any demographical targeting method you chose.

    what if a transexual had posted that they were offended by someone saying "guys and girls"? where is the line...thats the slippery slope you go down when you try to be all things to all people and speak to everyone equally. its simply impossible to do.

    i dont care how non-offensive you try to be. in todays world someone will take offense to what you say at some point.

    also brian, if you read what i suggest about making more money carefully and fully, i never ever said you can make more money by using locker room talk or anything of the sort. i never said that in any generic type market you can make more money by targeting jsut men or just women or any other demographic.

    what i said was that if you segment them properly that you could make more money by speaking to BOTH groups in different ways and by using analogies and such that resonate with each group. i said clearly that you could serve both groups better by trying to segment them and you would make more money if you successfully did that.

    and my points are more about slanting your tone and nalgies and such rather than specifically how you address someone. personally, if i dont have a person name, i avoid addressing them at all.

    i am talking more about tone and analogies and such. like me using hinting analogies in my newsletter that is 80% men. the women wont find it offense, but they are more likely to get off my list and as Brain would say be oppressed if i keep using hunting analgies.

    i have never suggested that you intentionally offend or piss off the women or atheists or Chinese and say screw them and act as if they dont matter and in doing so effectively oppress them. i have never even insulated that is smart or that would make you more money.

    i guess, i am coming at this from a perspective of having dealt with hundreds of different niches over the years. i have runs some crazy numbers of people through various systems in the past that i doubt anyone could match with their MMO business...this market is just way to small to have seen some of the numbers and such i have dealt with in broader markets.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    its funny that many who disagree with me in this thread resort to more personal attacks such as referring to me as sexists or as a kid.

    why not debate things totally on the marketing...why resort to that? i am not offended in the least, but usually when people go down those sort of routes its becasue they have become very emotional attached to something and are not thinking 100% logically anymore.

    and much like in many other complaining ttype threads regarding popups, otos.... people are saying stuff the numbers dont support. people hate otos and popups, but they work when done correctly

    so does slanting your tone and message to your demographic. be that race, religion, gender........when done correctly.

    again, not that the person the OP refers to did that in this specific instances. most all of us agree that the way he did this is almost certainly hurting his business, but there are ways to "speak" to a particular demographic using male centered analogies and such that dont offend women, but would resonate with the majority of your list better. and in doing so most likely result in more women unsubscribing than men, but having a higher percentage of the men on your list more engaged in what you are saying.

    and i keep saying this over and over. generic products are MARKETED to different demographics in different ways. the product may be equally useful to men and women, but one can certainly increase conversion rates if they use different triggers to entice women and men to buy the product. you can swap out men and women for a variety of other demographics and the above statement still holds true for almost every :"generic: product.

    watch, someone wishing to be in the weight loss market will post within the week asking for advice. and one of the regulars will say "you need to target a specific niche like women trying to lose baby fat or men trying to lose belly fat. thats the same thing. the products are virtually the same. they both say you need to do more crunches and eat better. you could take the same base report and slant it to both those markets very easily.

    its a generic market...people trying to lose weight vs people trying to make money online. and i am saying the same thing that applies to the weight loss market, can be applied to the MMO market.... you can target a sub niche of the MMO market in exactly the same way you target a sub niche of the weight loss market.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    so i am sitting here at the pool bar tonight with another pretty successful marketing buddy of mine.

    he suggests i pose this question to those who are disagreeing with me.

    "would it be sexists to start a list and business around the idea of targeting stay at home single mothers?" what about it i referred to my subscribers as "empowered moms" instead of dudes" and what about if i offered wp plugins and my sales letter says it will save new moms valuable time that you can spend with your new baby?

    is that being sexist or oppressing men by not suggesting that the wp plugin could help dads save time just as much as moms?

    would the same people who are calling me sexists in this thread think i was being sexist if i started a business targeting that group in those ways in the MMO market?

    and i am not being the least bit sarcastic. i am honestly very interested to see if people think that would be ok or if it would be sexist to target market single moms in that way?
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  • Profile picture of the author Claire Koch
    peshaw never even noticed this was happening nor do i care too much the guys in marketing have always banded together. you cant beat city hall .
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  • Profile picture of the author gluckspilz
    Since this looks like a fun thread, allow me to share my thoughts.

    For starters, I honestly don't think that "a lot" of IMers are using words like dudes and bros. In fact, I've just gone through my IM email (easily on hundreds of list) and I didn't find any, not even one email, that was directed at males only. Are you sure it's "A LOT" or just ONE person you received an email from...

    Secondly, yes I do agree that words like dude and bros WILL turn off a certain audience but that's entirely up to the person sending out the newsletter. Who knows? What if they their list, which has been filtered, actually brings in more profits? Basically, what I'm saying is that the advice is appreciated from the OP, because it's true that a segment of the IMers are females. But the argument that people have raised in this thread are on a whole different level.

    Thirdly, I honestly don't see the big deal at all in terms of what one should do or not do.

    Look at this fellow Aussie dude for example. I personally think he is hilarious, but I can also see a segment of the market hating him. Read the comments and you'll know what I mean.

    It's simple really. If the market resonate with you, you have loyal fans. If they don't like you because of WHO YOU ARE, then so be it!

    I once told my student to "Man up and stop making excuses". Some will ask for a refund because I'm not professional or cute. Not him, he took it by heart, manned up and actually started getting results.

    What I'm saying is CALM THE HECK DOWN! That being said, enjoy this stoner guy! He's pretty awesome! haha

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    • Profile picture of the author More Than Tips
      If marketers are sharing honestly with other marketers (which is very cool) that they can possibly be offended or feeling alienated then there really is not debate that is the reality right?

      So why lose a potential customer, affiliate, potential JV partner, someone that could have intro'd you to a life changer in your business, someone that could have invited you to a big speaking gig....on and on just to make a point?

      There are no statistics you can put up, you can write for years but every word you type is losing you potential business you could have had. IMHO.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        many who disagree with me
        those who are disagreeing with me.
        who are pro level marketers would disagree with that
        I know others will disagree
        few times I disagree with
        How is it in threads like this - it becomes "disagreeing with me"? A differing opinion is only that - it's not all about you, "guys".;-)

        The simple premise was that list owners might hurt their own business if they unthinkingly refer to their list as "bros" and "dudes".

        But when I am buying a product that was heavily marketed across all sectors, not at all niche specific, and then the vendor assumes that everyone that bought the product is a dude or bro - that to me is just a baffling marketing approach.
        If some want to scream "sexist" -that's on them. It is NOT what the thread is about. The entire premise is about "assuming" - not about deliberation or a specific approach you want to use.

        You can use any words you want - the point is to understand the words you use can have consequences you might not have considered.

        That's all it is to me - nothing more.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    kay, disagreeing is fine. i am not a fan of the personal attacks, but i am a big boy and i fully realize i set myself up for that when i take the dissenting opinion in an open debate format like a forum.

    i am trying to figure out if those that do disagree with me are doing so based on emotion or based on real marketing principles.

    Does brian actually believe that intentionally targeting women or men in any particular market is sexist? thats what i want to know. Or are he and others just debating this on some pricinple or from an emotional perspective that it somehow feels wrong for a person to target a majority instead of filling in a niche of minority consumers based on demographics when it comes to marketing a generic product. gender just being one of those demographics.

    or is it that it targeting the majority (men) in this MMO niche feels wrong, but targeting women (the minority) doesnt have the same discriminatory FEEL. even though its really the same thing.

    is mcdonalds sexist when they ask you after the sale if the hamburger happy meal is for a boy or girl? they are merely adding in a special bonus for each sex that think think will help them connect with that sex and make them want to make a 2nd purchase from them.

    how is that any different from a generic wp product that like the hamburger can serve men and women in exactly the same way. but somehow its ok to throw in a doll or a transfomrer, but not to target women with a wp plugin? i am baffled.

    i am honestly trying to discern if people are actually thinking targeting women and men is a sexist thing, if its a minority type situation which makes it FEEL wrong, or if they aer actually debating their point on the idea that its not smart to MARKET generic products to sub niches with different demographics and buying triggers?

    folks like me, you, mark, and even brian dont usually disagree this much. generally, we are very much on the same page with things when it comes to marketing. so when someone like mark says he disagrees with my initial post that basically said "maybe he wasnt targeting women" i am intrigued.

    but i know we all agree the OP didnt do it right, but is the principle wrong to target women (the minority) or men (the majority)in the niche or was it just his execution?
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I don't think it's "sexist" or "discriminatory". I don't have a problem with getting an email with "dude" but I will assume I'm not the person's target market and I will unsubscribe. No biggie.

      I do think it's often not planned - but unthinking and unintentional. Young marketers and English second language marketers may not realize how their use of slang impacts their list.

      If you intend to target men - or women - no problem but you need to be testing results. All Melody and I have been saying is if you have a product that appeals to a wide audience you make a mistake if you "assume" your list is all male.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

      kay, disagreeing is fine. i am not a fan of the personal attacks, but i am a big boy and i fully realize i set myself up for that when i take the dissenting opinion in an open debate format like a forum.
      Tell me about it
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    but assuming its a high percentage male is ok to speak to them and thus in many ways alienate a minority group?

    this seems to be brians point. that speaking to the majority is wrong because it excludes those who are in the minority. thats where he labeled me a sexist and accuses me of encouraging people to oppress minority groups...women in this case.

    my points are simply that if you have built a list that happens to be a high percentage male, or christian, or chinese, that not speaking in ways that make that group resonate with you is costing you far more money than speaking in ways that have you trying to serve everyone equally as if the demographics of your list are equally proportioned when the reality is they are not..

    my hypothesis is that to many here it FELT wrong for me to say to Melody ( a minority) in this situation that maybe she was not the target market. I think that triggered some very emotional responses by people.

    that seemed to get many arguing that if a product can be used equally well by any demographic (gender based) in this situation that no one should target any specific group of people that make up that market because doing so discriminates against the people you chose not to target even though they could use the product.

    its one thing for us to say "target i niche within your market" but it seems to be a very different thing when you do that and one of the people in the minority (that you were not targeting or trying to serve) says "hey what about me" and feels discriminated against. at that point it seems to not be ok or certainly not very popular anyway to defend targeting based on demographics...which includes gender as an option.

    i am pretty sure that if i had made a near identical post after finding myself on a list run by a women who was targeting women subscribers and who referred to her subscribers as "empowered women", the responses would have been far different.

    Most here would have told me something to the affect of "what did you expect" and "you are not her target market." then, those responses would have been justified as being ok because she is servicing a niche that happens to be in the minority of a bigger MMO niche. i dont believe people here would have labeled such a marketer as being sexist or trying to oppress males.
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    • Profile picture of the author Melody
      Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

      my hypothesis is that to many here it FELT wrong for me to say to Melody ( a minority) in this situation that maybe she was not the target market. I think that triggered some very emotional responses by people.
      OMG - don't even know how to address that remark. Honestly thought that most people were pretty much past the point of referring to women as a minority. Obviously not.

      But again, let me clarify this point since it seems to have gotten lost along the way: I have no problem with you addressing your market as dudes and bros, cats and dogs, or martians and venusians - if that is who the product was targeting originally. If I buy a product from a sales page that is male oriented and uses 'dudes and bros' throughout the sales copy, then I would EXPECT the follow-up marketing to be in the same vein.

      But when I buy a generically marketed product - something to be used by anyone, regardless of gender, race, preference, religion, etc......I think it simply shows a certain level of respect to ALL of your customers to not make the assumption that we are all men, and all your bro.

      One of the things I've always loved about IM is that anyone can succeed online because the net is gender/race/age neutral and provides a level playing field for everyone. But obviously - not all see it that way.

      Melody
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      • Profile picture of the author discrat
        I think in any context whether its an all male or female audience, addressing people by 'Dude' and 'bros' is just unprofessional.

        If you want to take your business serious and you want other people to take your business serious then you should use professional jargon



        - Robert Andrew
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by discrat View Post

          I think in any context whether its an all male or female audience, addressing people by 'Dude' and 'bros' is just unprofessional.

          If you want to take your business serious and you want other people to take your business serious then you should use professional jargon
          This. Far from just a gender issue the marketer is telling me he is likely to have little life or business experience. If dude and bro are some great marketing words why do mainline companies only use them in comical situations?

          When a marketer uses all this bro and dude stuff I envision him writing his copy in his room paid for by his mom and dad.

          Still, best thread and discussion I have seen here in a looong time.
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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Melody View Post

        OMG - don't even know how to address that remark. Honestly thought that most people were pretty much past the point of referring to women as a minority. Obviously not.
        I'm not sure why you would think that considering it's common knowledge that Gov. promotes small businesses owned by women as a minority, complete with tax incentives.

        Doubtful you'll find an SBA page on the net that specifically promotes small business only owned by men, there's no tax advantages that's for sure.
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      • Profile picture of the author Shana Walters
        Originally Posted by Melody View Post

        OMG - don't even know how to address that remark. Honestly thought that most people were pretty much past the point of referring to women as a minority. Obviously not.
        That made me laugh so hard.
        Women are a minority?
        Really?
        How come no one informed me about this?
        There are 7 billion people on the planet according to the statistics.
        Are you men saying that half the population were not born with a vagina?

        Quite the discussion you have going here Melody.
        Keep it up.

        Best Regards,
        Shana Jahsinta Walters.
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  • Profile picture of the author Complex
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by Complex View Post

      Women make up 51% of the world population.

      For the last 20-30 years, they have been outpacing men as far as advanced education goes.

      They've also been outpacing men as far as entry into fields that were once predominantly male.

      Advertising and marketing are two of those fields.

      Marketers who do that whole "market to other marketers about marketing" thing would be wise to adapt.

      The GROWING demographic, which leads to EXPANSION in the marketplace ... is with women.

      Not men.

      Besides, most of the guys who are doing that whole "bro and dude" thing are just trying to copycat what Frank Kern used to do ... which he doesn't even do anymore.

      That's what happens when folks copycat other folks who copycat other folks who ... you get the idea.

      The argument doesn't even hinge on sexism or people's personal beliefs. It hinges on basic, very basic, business fundamentals.

      Where is the market actually growing?

      With women.

      Well, I'll be damned.

      P.S. Is this really a business forum if folks don't even know that being able to identify growing markets and populations is kind of a big deal??? Or that being 20-30 years BEHIND on a confirmed trend is a sign of a business that probably won't sustain???

      P.P.S. I marketed for 14 years in the seduction and pua space on the side. Lol - and I'm the guy arguing for the women - solely on the idea that they are the growing market. Kind of funny, dontcha think? It's the "pua" who knows the fundamentals better than the "marketing experts" who crown themselves that title after copycatting other folk. Of course, all you have to do is frequent an upscale bar/club in Manhattan. Most of the women you are going to meet (in their 20's and 30's) - are in business, advertising, or marketing in some way. Or when you meet their friends, you'll see it there too. That's where being "in the field" pays off.
      YES I agree. FYI guys ( not dudes), there is a reason on the weekend I try to get my wife to spend the day hiking with me... so she wont be tempted to go to the Mall and spend loads of our money.

      Guys, women spend money. And especially online.

      You are an idiot if you overlook this demographic
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      • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
        Originally Posted by discrat View Post

        YES I agree. FYI guys ( not dudes), there is a reason on the weekend I try to get my wife to spend the day hiking with me... so she wont be tempted to go to the Mall and spend loads of our money.

        Guys, women spend money. And especially online.

        You are an idiot if you overlook this demographic
        Robert, I knew there was a very good reason why I like you

        I have opted out of a couple of lists because of the "hey dude" salutations - and one of the lists belonged to a software vendor - software that both male and female marketers would use. I remember thinking to myself that the guy was totally unprofessional. I too want to do business with professionals, not with someone who doesn't know who his buyers are and how to treat them.
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    • Profile picture of the author bluebay
      Originally Posted by Complex View Post


      Besides, most of the guys who are doing that whole "bro and dude" thing are just trying to copycat what Frank Kern used to do ... which he doesn't even do anymore.
      Oh my gosh, I remember Kern's old marketing approach vividly. I never felt like he was talking to me during his pre-launch videos.

      Remember when he would invite the viewer into his sports car or his VW bus for a ride and to shoot the breeze? Lol, I always felt like I didn't belong there, even though he seems like a pretty down-to-earth and friendly guy.

      I don't remember Kern every saying "dude" or "bro"...maybe he did..... but it was more his approach, and of many marketers like him back then, that made me feel like they were talking more to men than to women, making me feel excluded mostly.

      Now, I definitely feel more welcome in the IM space, whether that's on a newsletter or on a sales page for a WP plugin.

      I think that's partly due the fact that I just gravitate toward successful marketers whose marketing is gender-neutral because that's how they roll and it just seems natural for them to do so. Erica Stone, Andrew Hansen, and Shane Melaugh come to mind.

      At the same time, I think that there are marketers selling to the IM crowd who have changed their approach to be more female-inclusive because they realized it was a financially savvy move.

      But if some marketers want to keep a male-oriented approach when selling in the IM niche, more power to you, gentlemen. Just know that it may affect your bottom line.

      Fortunately for female marketers like myself, we now have more opportunities to buy products and join lists from fellow marketers who are gifted in being able to connect to both men and women on their lists and sales pages.

      Thanks for bringing up this topic, Melody. What a great discussion this has created.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    Despite what you may think, YOU or ME are not everyones target market. just because you buy something doesnt instantly make you the intentialnolly targeted market.

    just because you bought a product does not mean the seller was targeting whatever demographic you feel like identifying yourself as today. it just doesnt.

    and i was referring to women as a minority group as far as their statistical representation in the MMO market. to argue that is not true is just silliness. this is a perfect instance of people getting overly emotional involved in something....you took that and started fuming and acting as if i was from the 1940's. you got so emotionally worked up that you even said you were unsure how to properly respond to that....even though i wasnt even saying what you took it as. thats partly on me due to workding, but you took that as a direct insult when it wasnt at all.

    I wasnt however doing what our federal government still does which is in fact recognize and give advantages to women business owners solely on the basis of them being women. so before i clarified myself you were essentially saying i was sexist for referring to women as a minority group...which is NOT how i intended that, but you dont think its sexisst for the federal government to classify women as a minority group and offer them advantages based entirely upon race?

    which i suppose is not sexist, but referring to a list of people as "dudes" where men are more heavily represented is?

    and i am not even arguing that women shouldn't get some advantages when it comes to business ownership. i have been to several affrcian countries and there is a directly correlation between % of female business owners and overall economic improvement in given areas.... on a macro type scale. there are several things at play here, but having access to equal opportunities is a good thing for economic development

    but when we start throwing around stats about the fastest growing and stuff, lets not ignore the fact that they are as a group classified by our federal government as a minority and thus eligible for advantages and contracts and such that i am not solely because i have a penis. but i am certain details like that are not skewing the stats and such right?

    imagine if i offered a coaching program that only one sex could be a part of and the other sex was ineligible for only because of their gender...lol. thats what the government does. thats not sexist or discriminatory right? but saying "dudes" is?
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    • Profile picture of the author Sojourn
      Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

      this is a perfect instance of people getting overly emotional involved in something....you took that and started fuming and acting as if i was from the 1940's
      I don't think that's the case at all and as for "fuming", I think you've got that market cornered. (I'm teasing...I've actually enjoyed your presentation of some thought-provoking arguments in support of the question.)

      But, ignore the words "sexist" for now and look at the specific example Melody offered - a WordPress plugin or theme that's targeting a market that consists of both men and women.

      Using "dude" or "bro" in post-purchase emails of said product strikes some of us as unprofessional when there are obviously other ways to accomplish the same thing. (Now, here, I'm making an assumption because I can only guess what someone thinks they're accomplishing by using either phrase in their business. Those are the words my 11 year old uses when talking to his friends on XBox...)

      Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

      just because you bought a product does not mean the seller was targeting whatever demographic you feel like identifying yourself as today. it just doesnt.
      And that is a recipe for missed opportunities. Most businesses would jump at the chance to explore more segments and markets rather than narrowly focusing only on the one in which they first found success.

      The fact is some marketers use these phrases without thinking about them. I don't know if they're mimicking someone or following some suggestion from someone but there are absolutely some marketers who are using those phrases incorrectly.

      Even some men have chipped in and said the same thing - they find it unprofessional.

      So, if you knew a phrase turned off some segment of your buyer base and you had alternatives (because, surely, there are some) then why would one continue to use either phrase in their business communications?

      I think Melody offered a nice reminder to those who are using "bro" and "dude" in their communications to customers to think about whether or not it's appropriate.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    i am not the least bit upset by all this rukus. i think its actually far more thought provoking and that it is providing many more learning opportunities than the normal how do i make a 500% ROI by next week crap we see here.

    again, my point about a product that CAN be used by men and women is in fact purchased for different reasons most of the time...ie.. the emotional triggers are different that compel women and men to buy things....on average of course.

    and more than that, if you know that you have a bigger percentage of any demographic on your list for whatever reason. maybe you intentionally target a specific set of demographics and maybe its just a natural thing that is far bigger than anyone persons marketing efforts.

    the MMO has more men in it. how, why, i dont have all of those answers. but if you ignore that its probably costing you money. if your analogies and such are not slanted to resonate with men more then its probably costing you money.

    likewise if your analogies and such are not targeted to newbie on average, its probably costing you money. there are far more newbies in this niche than high level marketers.

    its simply impossible to fully connect with everyone of every demographic. be that gender, race, religious, income level, education level, age...... so when you find yourself in a position to have a profile of who is in your market you would be wise to use that to your advantage.

    knowing your demographics consist of more men than women and using hunting analogies to make marketing points is niche marketing...not discrimination against every other demographic you dont actively cater to with your analogies and such.

    and yes, you can try to speak as generically as possible regarding race,gender, religino, age....but at some point you will realize you are not truly serving the majority of your list by doing so. in fact you are not serving any of those people to the best of your ability because you are trying to be everything to everyone...not possible

    and its not about making more money...its really about better serving your niche market...which generally leads to more money. you cant server both 80 year old IMers an 22 year old IMers with the same content. it just wont work. you can be pretty generic for a while, but at some point you will realize that i need to focus on serving the older crowd and their needs and because they are the majority of my list. in doing so, you will undoubtedly go over some basic technology type things that the 22 years olds find boring and common knowledge....those folks will probably leave your list.

    gender is no different. on average, women and men buy things for different reasons. we all know emotional triggers are the key to high converting systems. and i am sure anyone who has ever dated anyone from the opposite sex can agree...we operate very differently on the emotional level.

    high converting funnels are not about logically convincing people to buy...its about emotion. men and women are just different there. so if you are trying to convince both men and women to buy something with the exact same sale pitch there is a 100% chance you are not only leaving money on the table, but you are not doing the men or women on your list as much good as you good be doing one of those demographics if you picked one and resonated with them.

    products that can be used generically by both sexes or any other set of demographics should almost NEVER be marketed to all those various demographics in the exact same way. each niche within the generic market consumes the generically usable product for different reasons.

    why dont online marketers in the MMO niche promote camping equipment or sound equipment to those lists....its becasue they know their demographcis. they know these people are interested in MMO stuff because somehow, in some way they have told you that.

    so by knowing that demographic you chose to promote MMO products and not other stuff that some of the people on your list would buy. I for instance just spend about 3k online for ultralight hiking gear this year. i buy lots of stuff online, but the MMO lists that i am on keep sending me online MMO stuff...why? thats sarcastic btw.

    they know the demographic of the majority of their users and they act accordingly. So if you knew other demographics should you not act accordingly as well. such as the newbie status or that the income level and education levels are both low. so now we know 3 or 4 demographics we can use to help us resonate and connect with these people better.

    now what if we know or could make highly educated guesses about other demographics such as age, gender, technology skill level? should we not use those as well?

    people here are very emotionally attached to the gender thing...thats just one very small aspect of niche marketing.

    i am not sure many here have a very good grasp on the difference between serving a niche and discrimination. i have seen many here make the assertion that by choosing to serve a niche you are effectively discriminating against all other groups you chose not to serve. thats just not a very practical definition of discrimination in my opinion.

    here is the definition of discrimination and its extremely broad. Discrimination is action that denies social participation or human rights to categories of people based on prejudice.[citation needed] This includes treatment of an individual or group based on their actual or perceived membership in a certain group or social category,

    so by that definition, i dont even have to be a member of any specific group, i just have to perceive i am a member of some group to claim that i was discriminated against.

    so if i claim that i perceive myself as a black, muslim, transexual with indian heritage then you better be talking to me in your MMO list because not doing so or referring to people as men and women is highly offensive to me...i am neither.

    obviously sarcasm, but it shows just how crazy this idea of discrimination can be and it shows that anyone can claim to have been discriminated against for almost anything at almost any time.

    so it sounds like we should all stop using any demographics to target any niche because we are all a bunch of discriminating assholes. we just keep trying to serve a market, but we really should be trying to be all thigns to all people so no one of any real or perceived group feels left out of anything we are doing.

    and btw, all you jerks who keep sending me offers to MMO online stuff just because i signed up for your list need to stop it. i find it highly offense that you think i am a part of that group just because i signed up to your MMO lists. i dont PERCEIVE myself to be in that group and that fact that you do is offensive to me. who would want to be associate with people like that anyway...lol
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    • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
      I asked my wife, who does promotions, about this topic. Her thoughts:

      1. Any email starting "Hey Bro" is automatically deleted.

      2. Anyone starting an email "Hey Bro" is either a spammer or idiot.

      Interestingly, she said beyond "Hey Bro" those using similar faux friendliness techniques are almost always spammers.

      3. If you want to segment an existing list you can professionally do so by making gender related product offers.

      Example: Macy's can send an email offering a discount off several products, including women's bras and men's ties. Someone buying women's bras is probably a woman and that segment would be more likely to receive further promotions emphasizing women's products.

      4. Even segmentation would not excuse starting an email "Hey Bro". You just make the product offer.

      .
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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
        Banned
        Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

        1. Any email starting "Hey Bro" is automatically deleted.
        No doubt, I mean it's most likely from a kid.

        Let's assume it's not Doogie Howser.
        Signature
        Hi
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    i totally agree Brian. i have never attempted to defend the use of "hey bro". from my second post on i clearly stated my thoughts that this person was probably just someone who did what they did out of ignorance. in my first post i didnt really get into what i thought about the idea of "hey bro" i merely talked about the idea of not everyone being everyones target market.
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  • unsubscribe buttons exist.
    Signature

    I would have invented Google and Microsoft if I was born earlier.

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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
      Originally Posted by ProfitFromMyDomain View Post

      unsubscribe buttons exist.
      And many, including from Warriors, are ignored or not honored.

      Mark
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      • Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

        And many, including from Warriors, are ignored or not honored.

        Mark
        Companies are gonna start making that into a call to action....lol
        Signature

        I would have invented Google and Microsoft if I was born earlier.

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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by ProfitFromMyDomain View Post

      unsubscribe buttons exist.
      Lol, that just tells them your alive & well.
      Signature
      Hi
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      • Originally Posted by yukon View Post

        Lol, that just tells them your alive & well.
        ahaha - retargeting
        Signature

        I would have invented Google and Microsoft if I was born earlier.

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  • Profile picture of the author gibsonjoe
    Originally Posted by Melody View Post

    Having been in the marketing world for a few years now (okay, a few decades now), I have always tried to be very 'neutral' in most of my general marketing efforts. Not just gender, but age, race etc - unless it was a very niche specific product that SHOULD be marketed to women, the over 55 crowd etc.

    BUT...it seems that a lot of IMers today are addressing their marketing efforts to a very specific demographic: 'DUDES' and 'BROS'.

    Unfortunately, that leaves out a pretty significant portion of the marketplace, because, trust me, I am neither a dude nor a bro, and I both make and spend a LOT of money online.

    I understand the terms are cool, etc, etc.....but seriously...there are an awful lot of us female types in the IM space - you really might want to re-think your marketing approach and come up with something a little more 'inclusive' than dudes and bros for you next newsletter ...because I know a lot of us are now just hitting the delete button instead of reading your emails....and that is probably not the result you want

    Just sayin'.....

    The Old Broad, Melody
    OMG! I love this. Thanks for pointing it out.

    Though i always use the Hello *First name* token.

    How about you simply ask for gender in your signup and find a way to use a javascript function to determine the salutation when sending messages.

    Or i will simply stick to my firstname token.
    Signature
    Practice like you've never won before, perform like you have never lost. I create, I take Risks, I Live My Passion. I AM AN ENTREPRENUER. https://imarkguru.com
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
      If you want to present yourself professionally, you should circumvent the juvenile culture lingo unless your business truly depends upon it.
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      • Profile picture of the author David Keith
        Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

        If you want to present yourself professionally, you should circumvent the juvenile culture lingo unless your business truly depends upon it.
        This is extremely good theoretical business advice. It's not bad advice for offline professionals like lawyers or accounts either.

        But for an online business where separating yourself is more difficult than just having a local clientele and such this is not good advice at all. Be yourself...you will do much better than you will by trying to blend in with the professional crowd.

        I have no doubt I have signed some of the biggest consulting contracts of anyone on this forum in my day. Several that have been multiple 6 figures.

        Here is my angle in every one of those.

        I walk into their office in khaki shorts and flip flops. They are turned off, but have paid me something to be there so they hear me out. I then tell them I get them the results they want and that I don't make pretty PDFs type market analysis reports.

        Instead, I write largely unedited emails and PDFs that have errors and few if any graphics in them. I explain to them that I can do the perfectly edited reports with cool graphics if they want, but the content will be the same...the results of my advice will be the same, but they have to pay my editor and my graphic people plus a 30% markup for my trouble.

        It usually get a chuckle and then reality sets in that this young guy just walked into our office in shorts and said I can get you the results you want but I don't always use commas correctly and I misplell hte often. They suddenly realize that for this guy to come in and do that he is either the absolute worst consultant ever, or he knows his shit and is super confident that his advice works so he doesn't need to pretty it up.

        I routinely use lol and wtf and lower case i's in professional emails to high level professionals. They quickly realize that in the real world me capitalizing an I is far less important to their business that the content of the sentence I use the word "I" in.

        Even in this forum, most of my posts are largely unedited...yet my thanks to post ration is about as high as anyone's here. People realize my content and advice is right so the fact that I didn't capitalize the word "i" is really no big deal.

        Be yourself. Have an angle. Don't just blindly try to blend in as a professional because some professional told you to do that.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Ok - don't know what the prize is but with almost 8000 words in this thread....David wins

          Some good arguments in this thread even if it did go way beyond the general "don't call me dude" comments.
          Signature
          Every child needs a pet because every family needs an optimist

          Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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        • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
          Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

          But for an online business where separating yourself is more difficult than just having a local clientele and such this is not good advice at all.
          Working online amidst a global market is the number one reason why communication should be universally acceptable.

          The stir some men in the East have made in recent times online by calling other males "Dear" is one amusing and fitting example.

          Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

          Be yourself. Have an angle. Don't just blindly try to blend in as a professional because some professional told you to do that.
          I'm not convinced that being indoctrinated by culturistic slang language qualifies as being onself. Rather the opposite.

          Calling a client or prospect "dude" or "bro" is a far cry from having an angle and using that kind of language is a perfect example of blindly blending in - or trying to.

          "Professional" needn't be stereotypical and everyone has the ability to distinguish themselves instead of having to resort a common slant on language.

          Some people dislike those expressions whereas you will never have someone judge you negatively for not using them, so not using them satisfies the entirety. This is the logic of neutralism.
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        • Profile picture of the author discrat
          Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

          T

          I walk into their office in khaki shorts and flip flops. They are turned off, but have paid me something to be there so they hear me out. I then tell them I get them the results they want and that I don't make pretty PDFs type market analysis reports.



          It usually get a chuckle and then reality sets in that this young guy just walked into our office in shorts and said I can get you the results you want but I don't always use commas correctly and I misplell hte often. They suddenly realize that for this guy to come in and do that he is either the absolute worst consultant ever, or he knows his shit and is super confident that his advice works so he doesn't need to pretty it up.
          Hey David,
          That is pretty bold.

          Just thinking though... is it really worth it ? I mean you say they are turned off. In a business proposition you want to stack the odds in your favor as far as having a successful outcome.
          Why introduce this variable i.e showing you relaxed attitude and individuality ? Isn't it just one more thing that could possible keep you from Success ?

          Is it really that important to you ?

          This is not a slam I am just wondering why you would want to risk it if these people are noticeably turned off when meeting you ?

          On the other hand, I do see where it could possibly be some kind of reverse psychology.

          The people must say to themselves that you look unorthodox with your attire but then think you must be just some eccentric genius who will over deliver


          - Robert Andrew
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          • Profile picture of the author David Keith
            Originally Posted by discrat View Post

            Hey David,
            That is pretty bold.

            Just thinking though... is it really worth it ? I mean you say they are turned off. In a business proposition you want to stack the odds in your favor as far as having a successful outcome.
            Why introduce this variable i.e showing you relaxed attitude and individuality ? Isn't it just one more thing that could possible keep you from Success ?

            Is it really that important to you ?

            This is not a slam I am just wondering why you would want to risk it if these people are noticeably turned off when meeting you ?

            On the other hand, I do see where it could possibly be some kind of reverse psychology.

            The people must say to themselves that you look unorthodox with your attire but then think you must be just some eccentric genius who will over deliver


            - Robert Andrew
            It's not about being bold. That move inevitably leads to a conversation like this....

            I know I turned many of you off with my shorts and flip flops, but here is the deal. I know what I am doing. For the last several years, I have paid my light bill and put food on the table by doing the kind of marketing you need help with.

            My completion however uses a tie and a pretty flashy type presentation to convince you to give them money....that's how they put food on their table. By convincing you they are professionals, not buy actually getting marketing results.

            Then I say something like this. In preparing for this meeting, I looked at lots of market research and such and I know I can help you do what you need done here. In fact, I found the opportunities in your niche to be so compelling that if you don't hire me to work for you, I just may start my own business competing with you folks because I just see so many opportunities here. I don't make it sound as a threat....it's done tongue in cheek with a smile to let them know that I do see what needs to be done to help them.

            I make my living by finding the kind of opportunities I see here....my competition doesn't. If you don't hire them, there is no chance of them pursuing this niche...they will be off to the next office to convince them to give them money...they don't want to actually get their hands dirty and try to market stuff unless they are paid to do so buy some company like yours.

            The shorts just lead me to be able to use some very powerful usp's that set me apart from competition in some very compelling ways.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    All I want is a blue lollipop for my trouble. Will someone please get me a blue lollipop. Lol

    And please be careful about where you get it from, I don't want any stolen lollipops.
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  • Profile picture of the author littletoot
    Originally Posted by Melody View Post

    Having been in the marketing world for a few years now (okay, a few decades now), I have always tried to be very 'neutral' in most of my general marketing efforts. Not just gender, but age, race etc - unless it was a very niche specific product that SHOULD be marketed to women, the over 55 crowd etc.

    BUT...it seems that a lot of IMers today are addressing their marketing efforts to a very specific demographic: 'DUDES' and 'BROS'.

    Unfortunately, that leaves out a pretty significant portion of the marketplace, because, trust me, I am neither a dude nor a bro, and I both make and spend a LOT of money online.

    I understand the terms are cool, etc, etc.....but seriously...there are an awful lot of us female types in the IM space - you really might want to re-think your marketing approach and come up with something a little more 'inclusive' than dudes and bros for you next newsletter ...because I know a lot of us are now just hitting the delete button instead of reading your emails....and that is probably not the result you want

    Just sayin'.....

    The Old Broad, Melody
    More then Tips
    "Do Marketers pretend to be women when they are men?"
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  • Profile picture of the author Young Skolr
    Hey Melody and Warrior's, interesting post and discussion, I think perhaps the reason these people are using words like "bro's" and "dudes" is because in the English language masculine is given dominance by way of nature, so "hey wha's up guys?" is seen to be a respectful way of greeting a group of friends even if there are females within the group.

    Much like when talking of God for example, Whom is known to be neither male nor female; completely unique to anything else, i.e: He created all living things male and female but is Himself neither male or female; is refered to as "He" out of respect because of the natural masculine dominance in our language and culture. To call somebody "it" would certainly be disrespectful in our language.

    It is simply the way of nature, masculine is dominant over feminine in some areas and feminine excells masculine in others - in the case of modern spoken English "hey guys" is seen as acceptable to a group (fine with marketing then too) whereas "hey girls" would likely offend the male members of the group, or atleast be shrugged off as banter.

    Just sharing my thoughts.

    That being said, I totally take on board your point about being more inclusive - it only takes a little to acknowledge the women as women: "Hey guys" becomes "Hey guys and girls", I'm no expert but judging by the OP's post it could pay high dividends this little courtesy.

    ...well, they do say it's the little things, right?

    Peace
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    Daniel, being neutral is trying to blend in and do what everyone expects you to do is a very tough way to go for most people.

    Trying not to piss off anyone or cause a stir is a big reason why most online folks have trouble gaining any traction.

    Take this very thread even. I could have easily just thanked the post and went with the consensus view. But truthfully, I don't think that would have done many people nearly as much good as the spirited discussion we had here did.

    Of course I am not suggesting everyone should start using dude and bro....I said many times this person had no clue of the stuff I have talked about it....it was purely done out of ignorance. But that doesn't mean the concept wasn't valid even though his execution was severely flawed.

    When I go after a consulting deal, there are almost always other competitors involved. All of them wear a suit and tie to the first meetings. All of them have some really flashy looking report that looks very professional. Yet time and time again I have got the deals. It's because I chose to to be different and carry my angle all the way through.

    If I had walked in to most of those situations with a tie on, I would have gotten far less deals. When decision time came, the customers wouldn't have had much of anyway to differentiate us. We would have all look like good candidates. But buy being different, to many customers I was able to show them I was better and more confident in my abilities than others were.

    I am certain I have lost deals sometimes....no doubt about it. But at the same time, I have gotten deals almost totally because I dared to have an angle and not to compete on who is the most professional.

    Even from this very thread, I have had 2 pms saying something to the affect of...you seems to know you shit, can you help me in regard to connecting with a list. That's not an accident. I doubt those will ever make me any money.

    It's probably volunteer work for me and that's fine. but my point is that I would have never gotten those people's attention if I had not defended my position and just said "me too" in this thread. And I certainly didn't take the position I did on this thread to attract business...lol. That silly consulting link in my sig doesn't even support my daily tequila intake...never could probably....lol.

    Being different and not neutral all the time in regards to many aspects of being professional means you will upset some folks sometimes. It also means you will connect with some other people much better too though.

    Trying to position yourself as the most professional is just a hard way to go for most people because they rarely are the most professional. Why compete on that metric if you know you can't win at it?
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
      Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

      Take this very thread even. I could have easily just thanked the post and went with the consensus view. But truthfully, I don't think that would have done many people nearly as much good as the spirited discussion we had here did.
      You should heed the consensus as Q.E.D.

      Trying to position yourself as the most professional is just a hard way to go for most people because they rarely are the most professional. Why compete on that metric if you know you can't win at it?
      Being most professional wasn't touched upon, rather the benefit of communicating professionally i.e. in a universal style that everyone can relate to which eliminates risk of going against the grain of some people. The ability to resist slang greetings and labels is within the capacity of all.

      I wouldn't assume that irritating some people is a fair sacrifice on the assumption that you are connecting with others at some deeper level with words that are already rife.

      Pleasing all with the standard is clearly the safest bet.
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  • Profile picture of the author Winning34
    I'm a YouTube partner with a pretty big YouTube channel. I've just received a PM on YouTube from an advertising network trying to get me to sign with them. (Context: These networks essentially take circa 20% of your revenue for doing very little work. It's worth a lot of money for them to sign up a big channel like mine.)

    So his PM starts: "Hey man how ya doin?! I just checked out your channel and it's awesome...."

    *delete*
    *flag for spam*
    *block from channel*

    YouTube ad networks are renowned for being run by 15 year old kids (I'm not kidding btw) I think they really need to have a few lessons in how to write a professional email, especially when they're trying to sign a big account. I get loads of these emails every week and it's always the same bs.
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
      Originally Posted by Winning34 View Post

      I think they really need to have a few lessons in how to write a professional email..
      It's bittersweet.

      We dislike it but the early alarm bells are surely valuable.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    No business or business person tries to please all. They all have their angle. They all have their target customer base and that's who they market too...not the people who find their products or services to be too expensive, too unprofessional, too big, to purple.......

    Do you think Apple cares they have a ridiculous margin that dwarfs their competitors and that they could compete on price more and have more customers....hell no. They only want rich people to buy their stuff.

    They don't give a crap that poor people can't afford an iPad and so they buy an andriod tablet. They are not trying to please everyone....they know that's a fools game.

    They are not trying to serve poor people. They want guys like me who buy a new iPad every year of for no other reason than to say I did.

    They same thing applies to every demographic or targeting method you can think of....including your level of professionalism.

    I am not a professional... I don't try to be. People who value professionalism over results are not my target market so I don't have to be professional in my approach to online business and such. If you do value professionalism more than results then you will be annoyed with me and that's fine by me.

    But it doesn't at all mean that there are not huge numbers of people out there who do value results more than they value professionalism when it comes to hiring a consultant or getting advice about online business / marketing things.

    You just want me to serve you, and I don't actually want to serve you. And I am not saying that as a personal thing to you., I mean that as in I don't try to serve everyone in the way that they want me to serve them. I provide a service the way I want to and people who like those methods do business with me...those who don't...don't.

    Why doesn't Lamborghini make a 20k compact car? They could sell a lot of them probably. But they know that would destroy their brand. They have no interest in serving commuters. Their cars can be used to commute, but that ain't their target market by a long shot. They make super high margin super elite level cars. They don't try to be all things to all customers.

    They don't care that only a very few can afford their cars and that they could have more customers if they would lower prices and cut some quality. They don't actually want you to be their customer unless you can pay multiple 6 figures for a car.

    Just like me, I don't want you as a customer if you value capital I"s more than rock solid marketing advice that gets results.
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
      Calling people 'bro' and 'dude' is not an angle.

      It's common and a bugbear for many.
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      • Profile picture of the author sophuk
        Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

        Calling people 'bro' and 'dude' is not an angle.

        It's common and a bugbear for many.
        Another bugbear is ' hun ' grrrrr
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  • Profile picture of the author maxsi
    Uuummm .... I think everyone needs to know his/her lists and work at the best. (Personally I have many girls on my list)
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  • Profile picture of the author Sosu
    I'm working on something not for Bros or Dudes... urinates.com It's for blue hairs and geezers
    Signature

    Do you ever feel like a race car hauling dirt? You're getting the job done, but that's not what you were built to do.

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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    I am on your list Declan. I thought about mailing you this link, but I was actually kind enjoying the underdog situation here.

    I know I am right and I was accurately able to predict many of these same people would say exactly the same things I am saying...when it was more convenient and politically correct to do so.

    But truthfully, I actually found this thread to be a much better learning experience than most threads around here...even for me. I don't get challenged much on my understanding of marketing and online business much anymore.

    I find that when I or anyone is pushed and put in a position to have to defend their beliefs when they are unpopular is when those people themselves actually are able to further their understanding of things more.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    I am almost 100% in agreement with you mark. The only difference I have which is relevant in this particular case and in my example about income level is that sometimes we can make pretty educated guesses about our market demographics and that doing so is not wrong from a business perspective.

    However if you make incorrect assumptions, you may end up costing you money....but a few negative opinions don't mean you were wrong either.

    No one would argue that a very small percentage of people on any random mmo lists are making 7 figures.... So we can make the educated guess that we should slant our marketing towards people making less than 7 figures....more like low 5 figures right? Even though I don't very many if any in the mmo actually know the income level of their subscribers.

    The same educated guesses about market demographics can be made on a sports site. If you are going to advertising there and no demographics are provided, most of us would still assume it's a high percentage male audience.

    Just because you don't know your exact demographic metrics with statistical data doesn't mean you should ignore pretty clear indicators. The more you know the better though...of course.

    In this particular case we had a person who I don't think anyone will argue is in the statistical minority in the mmo...she was referring to her demographic staus as a women and I haven't seen anyone yet make the assertion that there are more women than men in the mmo market.

    So much like the idea of assuming there are more men on the sports site, it is not a big reach for one to assume there are more men on your mmo list than women. Just like there are more 5 figure earners than 7 figure earners.

    The specific execution was poor here and almost certainly inadvertent and done out of ignorance, but I still don't believe the premise is wrong.

    Sometimes the market demographics are bigger than any individuals targeting...ie Pro sports that are televised and their viewing audience.

    Btw. Thanks for commenting. To be honest, I probably wouldn't have bothered with this thread if it hadn't been someone I respected who initially disagreed with my premise.
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  • Profile picture of the author mrmax
    Originally Posted by Melody View Post



    I understand the terms are cool, etc, etc.....but seriously...there are an awful lot of us female types in the IM space - you really might want to re-think your marketing approach and come up with something a little more 'inclusive' than dudes and bros for you next newsletter
    I agree but I dont think its just for females or mature people, I'd think that would turn most intelligent people off. I recently watched a 2 hour presentation that was pretty good, given by a 20-something male. And at the end the name of their business was something like "Bro Academy" or something. That turned me wayyyy off. And they wanted $1,995 for the training.

    It sounded like a bunch of college guys looking for money so they could score girls and want me to give them $2k for an ebook and 2 phone calls. No way. Completely unprofessional.
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  • Profile picture of the author Edwin Torres
    I guess too many people are modeling the smooth, laid-back approach that Frank Kern had to email marketing. I still remember one of the emails he sent with the subject line "DUDE"
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  • Profile picture of the author Shirley4ever
    Exactly, few of the men does not prefer o be called by Dude or Bro.
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  • Profile picture of the author Piere
    from noe on I call all, DUDESES! LOL your point was well said dudeses.
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    • Profile picture of the author FromCook2King
      Originally Posted by Piere View Post

      from noe on I call all, DUDESES! LOL your point was well said dudeses.
      Why the **** did you bring this thread back to life?
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      • Profile picture of the author discrat
        Originally Posted by FromCook2King View Post

        Why the **** did you bring this thread back to life?
        Yep, typical Warrior protocol it seems these days.

        I will say I remember this Thread and it was very interesting to see some of the view points
        ( So I will keep it going for a little longer for sentimental purposes LOL)

        Personally, for some Niches I cannot argue that addressing some people by Dudes or Bro may be totally appropriate

        Frank Kern did it for a number of years and totally crushed it with his audience at the time


        - Robert Andrew
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex65
    words are like a business card for me
    we offer products but people do not see us in the face
    if they do not see a friendly face or not
    word choice is our face to our voice
    This is my humble thought!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author Lurk
    I see the term "Bruh" being used by women. I presume this is a societal shift. Perhaps it is the younger women(guessing age 15-30).
    However, if you are trying to appease a general market, "diplomacy" is always the best measure. Example, no visible tattoos, no profanity, no slang, wear a suit/business attire( casual dress shirt polo shirt if male might work) in videos and be clean cut straight laced. You cant go wrong with that imagery.
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    DONT USE TIME CARELESSLY FOR IT CANNOT BE RETRIEVED. -LURK

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  • Profile picture of the author webmarketer
    In the dictionary, certain words go archaic--and annotated or tagged accordingly. Modes of writing and interrelation--business and social--were different during the Belle Epoque years compared today.

    There's always a target specific audience that keeps evolving. Whatever the accepted standards of the day, so be it and market to that audience--based on your plans.
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  • Profile picture of the author AmberJB
    Dudette! I want to be a dudette!

    Seriously, it really matters what testing you've done, and if your audience likes bro and dude, and buys if you call them that, then I guess you'd want to call them that. But if they click away, then choose other words. Pretty simple.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex The Lion
    I can't see why you would need to use collective terms for people in your marketing.

    Marketing tends to be targeted to the individual person, so simple uses of the word 'you' and avoiding gender specific words normally covers everybody fine.

    I've never seen it, though do people start their emails with 'hi dudes'? I would suggest simply using 'hi'.
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  • Profile picture of the author SeanSupplee
    It really depends on your target audience honestly and who you are trying to attract. But I totally understand this angle being on many webinars where someone says Guys and there are ladies on the webinar I almost always have one or two people offended or say stop saying guys their are ladies here as well!

    If your market niche is general and to all try using all angles somewhere in your pitch I would say but honestly its a habit for most to keep saying guys, dude, dudette (Amder lol) etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
    You'd hate living in Boston, where everybody says "you guys," no matter how many girls are in the group. Example: "Are you guys coming to the party?" or "Any of you guys know where the mall is?"
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    My New Video Series is Free (for now)
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

      You'd hate living in Boston, where everybody says "you guys," no matter how many girls are in the group. Example: "Are you guys coming to the party?" or "Any of you guys know where the mall is?"
      Not just in Boston, we say it down here in South Texas. At least I do



      - Robert Andrew
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  • Profile picture of the author cypherslock
    Que the inevitable "bitches and hoes" rebuttal....Only time Bros and Dudes should be used is if you're appealing to that type of demographic (such as young bodybuilder). Other than that...yeck.
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  • Profile picture of the author trip3980
    I know what your saying here. I was talking to a teen about the word "Vlog" She said the word was the phnotoicaly sounding "V" included with log Not sure how to spell it that way I said it was V - Log. But she says it as one word and says everyone on the internet says it that way IE the hip new phrase.

    Now as marketers and media professionals we are supposed to keep up with the changing times and our responses are supposed to speak to "Joe six pack" as in a pack of beer. In other words dumb our language down so that a 5th grader can understand what message we are trying to project.

    Playing devils advocate here I feel that viral marketing is key and starting some new trend based on some ad is pretty extraordinary if one can achieve that level of success. I have a few times and the rewards are great. the "Whassup" commercial wrings a bell. Completely vulgar when you hear it and annoying at times but the phrase spread like wild fire and now is part of the Oxford English dictionary lol.

    also the term 'Bros' & 'Dudes' can be implied as someone part of humanity hence the hu "MAN" ity. So can it be correct sure and probably a complement too depending on how you look at it IE hello my fellow "Man" or "Human." Its a term of acknowledgment.

    But on the other side of the coin I don't think we as marketing and media professionals should dumb down society by implementing "Hip words" just because we know that they think the phrase is cool. I think if these words are used they should be part of a punch line or like a period at the end of a sentence something to make the term stand out. Hence "Whassup" and why it was such a hit.

    I think the conclusion here is don't use the "Hip" language as a way to communicate to the audience because you "Think" you need to talk to their level but rather use the term to accentuate the situation or message.

    Also keep in mind if your creating a message based on a character then its ok to stick with the stereotype as long as your target audience can identify with it and it doesn't come out offensive.

    for your enjoyment:
    Family Guy Stereotypes

    https://youtu.be/zFeNLEnV8r4

    Originally Posted by Melody View Post

    Having been in the marketing world for a few years now (okay, a few decades now), I have always tried to be very 'neutral' in most of my general marketing efforts. Not just gender, but age, race etc - unless it was a very niche specific product that SHOULD be marketed to women, the over 55 crowd etc.

    BUT...it seems that a lot of IMers today are addressing their marketing efforts to a very specific demographic: 'DUDES' and 'BROS'.

    Unfortunately, that leaves out a pretty significant portion of the marketplace, because, trust me, I am neither a dude nor a bro, and I both make and spend a LOT of money online.

    I understand the terms are cool, etc, etc.....but seriously...there are an awful lot of us female types in the IM space - you really might want to re-think your marketing approach and come up with something a little more 'inclusive' than dudes and bros for you next newsletter ...because I know a lot of us are now just hitting the delete button instead of reading your emails....and that is probably not the result you want

    Just sayin'.....

    The Old Broad, Melody
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve L
    Originally Posted by Melody View Post

    Having been in the marketing world for a few years now (okay, a few decades now), I have always tried to be very 'neutral' in most of my general marketing efforts. Not just gender, but age, race etc - unless it was a very niche specific product that SHOULD be marketed to women, the over 55 crowd etc.

    BUT...it seems that a lot of IMers today are addressing their marketing efforts to a very specific demographic: 'DUDES' and 'BROS'.

    Unfortunately, that leaves out a pretty significant portion of the marketplace, because, trust me, I am neither a dude nor a bro, and I both make and spend a LOT of money online.

    I understand the terms are cool, etc, etc.....but seriously...there are an awful lot of us female types in the IM space - you really might want to re-think your marketing approach and come up with something a little more 'inclusive' than dudes and bros for you next newsletter ...because I know a lot of us are now just hitting the delete button instead of reading your emails....and that is probably not the result you want

    Just sayin'.....

    The Old Broad, Melody
    See this as an opportunity to fill the void!
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