Warriors: Do You Want To Make Money Or Make Excuses?

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FAIR WARNING: This isn't a rant (really, it's not...), but I'm not going to hold back here either...

Since this post is aimed primarily at folks new to the forum, I should probably tell you, at the very least, a little about my own WF history - so you can briefly set aside your skepticism and trust that I only have your best interests at heart with this post...

I've been a member of the Warrior Forum for well over a decade now, certainly longer than the "join date" this username indicates.

I was as a moderator of the WF Copywriting sub forum for years (until that one morning all of us non-Freelancer mods discovered we had been unceremoniously made Freedmen.)

I was the organizer and host of the 5 now infamous Warrior Live Networking Events held between 2011-2014 (along with my Warrior Event partner Sam England) where hundreds of Warriors flew in from across the globe each time to network and learn from each other - and where JVZoo was born.

All of this just to point out, I have a deep understanding of the culture, dynamics and desires of this forum, far better than most...

The Warrior Forum has hundreds of thousands of members - it's no different than the population of any similar sized city - the citizens come in all sizes, shapes and stripes.
  • We've got seasoned marketers who've earned millions online.
  • We've got dreamers and schemers in the middle of a passing fancy.
  • We've got whiners and rage-a-holics who obsessively seek new targets for their anger.
  • We've got supportive peers and colleagues who jump in to lend a hand to strangers expecting nothing in return.
  • We've got dirtbag criminals who prey on the new and unsuspecting for pocket money.
  • We've got good, honest people sincerely seeking a way earn a living income using the internet to sell goods and services of value.

And everything in between... including an awful lot of very smart, very experienced marketers who rarely, if ever, post anymore.

At the risk of sounding like a pompous, self-congratulatory ass, I'm one of them...

It's now been a little over a year since Freelancer.com purchased the Warrior Forum from Allen Says.

What a difference a year makes...

Some of the changes have been irrefutably positive:
  • A complete overhaul of the technical reliability and speed of the forum.
  • Tackling very thorny compliance issues in the WSO section head-on.
  • A 100% free series of livestream events featuring some truly world-class marketing experts.

Those are just a few of the big wins for the new owners...

However, the elephant in the middle of the room is not so sweet smelling...


AN INVASION OF IGNORANT SHORT-MONEY SEEKERS
= A MASS EXODUS OF SENTIENT MARKETERS

You'd have to keep your head firmly planted in sand not to notice and be affected by the decline in the overall quality of the discussion here nowadays.

The changing complexion of the Warrior Forum goes much deeper than just difficulties with language barriers and challenges with cultural differences - although both have become epidemic.

Gone is the sense of community and participation in an ongoing conversation - threads regularly go unreplied to or in single digits when they are.

Gone is the predictability of popping onto the Warrior Forum and finding interesting, useful insights that help you make more money or think of new ways to approach your marketing.

Gone is the sense of respect for the history and craft of the business we're all supposed to be in.

And when those disappear, so do the most experienced members with the most to offer...


IT'S INCREASINGLY DIFFICULT TO PARTICIPATE HERE,
SO ONE FINAL SHOT ACROSS THE BOW FOR ME.


I'm not pulling a "noble exit" or anything - but what I am is BORED... and I'm far from alone.

So, today I thought I'd post one last value bomb here and just let it ride... let's see if there's still fun to be found here or not.

Which leads me to the main point of this post - and a direct question for new members (and even some of the perpetually struggling long-timers) here:


Do you want to make money online
or do you want to make excuses about why you're not?



You can't do both, so you need to choose...

"But McLeod, you don't know my situation... things are different/harder for me because (insert reason why you're special here)"

Sorry... you're not special.

Everyone's got their own personal brand of unfortunate circumstances to deal with.

For some it's money. For others it's family. Still others have health problems, relationship issues and any of the myriad maladies that have plagued humans throughout history.

As the song lyric goes, "Everybody got their somethin'..."

Handle yours - or don't. It's always a choice.

Even failing to decide is it's own decision - just one that gets made FOR you, instead of BY you.

Whatever you do - accept that your outcomes are direct reflection of your output.

You get out of this business exactly what you put into it. There are no shortcuts and there are no secrets. You learn, you do, you get.


Making money online IS SIMPLE, but it's NOT EASY.

  • It takes determination to learn what you need to know and acquire what you need to have to be able to do what you want to do.
  • It takes responsibility to become self-sufficient for your own success or failure without shifting the blame onto some other external force when things aren't working.
  • It takes consistency in your thinking and your actions - success is not a singular event that happens and transforms you, it's a series of small victories that accumulate over time.

As predictably as the sun rises each morning, the same types of questions pop up here from raw rookies looking to cash in online without any understanding of what they're even trying to accomplish...

"What's the fastest/easiest/guaranteed way to get to $100 a day?"
"Does (XYZ Magic Bean) still work for (Thing That Never Needed XYZ)?"
"Do I need a website?" or "Should I start building an email list?"
"Are there any costs to get started?"
"How much money can I make and how long will it take?"
And on and on and on... ad nauseam.

REALITY CHECK: If you're asking these types of questions, you're the internet marketing equivalent of a dead-man walking - you just don't realize it yet.

Truthfully, you don't even know "what you don't know" yet.

At the top of this post, I said this wasn't a rant - and I meant it.I'm not one to offer criticisms or point out flaws without offering a solution.

So, let's shift gears to the "do something about it" part, shall we?


FLIP YOUR SCRIPT - SEEK TO SERVE FIRST


The single most important marketing question (from the perspective of the customer):

What's In It For Me? (W.I.I.F.M.)

Over and over again, you read pleas for help here and the obvious solution is staring them right in the face - the confused marketer is only concerned with themselves... "I need...", "I want...", "Why isn't this working?"

If you're failing or spinning your wheels and getting nowhere fast, chances are you've been doing everything completely ass-backwards - so, little wonder why your results reflect that.

You WILL FAIL when your focus and marketing approach is all about getting what YOU want.

Marketing isn't something you do TO people, it's something you do FOR people...
  1. You identify an audience seeking a solution to a problem they have.
  2. You create value by figuring out the best way to help them solve their problem.
  3. You offer your superior solution to that audience.

Don't make things harder than they need to be (or they really are...)

Here's what millionaire marketers ask themselves about how they're serving their market:
  • Who is my ideal prospect (and who is NOT?)
  • What keeps my customer awake at night, and how can I best help them solve that problem?
  • Is what I'm promoting the best solution for their problem, or just an opportunity for quick cash?
  • How can I create unique, new VALUE for my audience?
  • How can I amplify or multiply the effectiveness of what I promote?
  • How can I speed up the process or make things easier for my customer?

The Good News: People will gladly spend money with you when they trust you to deliver a result or outcome they want.

The Bad News: Those same people will run the other way when your transparent attempts to reach into their pocket are obvious and self-serving.

Serve your market by creating unique value and they'll reward you with MONEY. Simple as that...

If you found this post valuable, take second to reply below, hit the "Thanks" button, or share it with somebody that needs to read it.

Wishing you only success,

Brian McLeod
#excuses #make #money #warriors
  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    Brian: it IS hard to participate here.

    Seeing the same questions asked over and over again.

    Empty questions.

    Questions from people wanting Push-Button Millions.

    People, it takes YEARS to get good at this.

    And if you pay someone for a "Done For You" business...well, in my opinion, you get what you deserve. No skill. No experience. No fallback for when the DFY thing gets taken away.

    Get OUT THERE and get some experience, people. Lose a little. Come back with a LEGIT QUESTION..."I did this and look what happened. What can I do about it?"

    That's specific.

    That shows the experienced marketers that you're trying.

    Otherwise, guys like me (I'm not going to speak for Brian) will simply pass by your post.

    I went away from the forum for about 6 months...and on my return it seems like the knowledgeable people are for the most part gone. I was surprised to see Brian's post.

    P.S. I miss the Raleigh events, Brian. Last time I met up with you, Ron Rule, and a bunch of guys from the Offline section who have a ton of skill. It was a lot of fun.
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  • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
    Great post Brian.


    As you know I have been away for a long time. As someone who is just coming back and seeing everything with a fresh eye everything you posted above is spot on.


    Even though I know a lot more than a beginner and know the forum quite well it is hard to find any quality to the main forum anymore.


    The problem is, the old days are gone, and honestly I see no way for them to return. The die has been cast for this forum and its new direction.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Brian, I have never thanked a post where the poster asked for it. No matter how good it was or who they were because I hate that with a passion. I did yours. And I'll spell it out again - Thank You.

    Several have made suggestions about ways to increase the level of discussion. I think Kurt suggested pay for posting (best post of the day gets some kind of reward). Taking away signatures until you earn it. Using thanks from people with thanks as a determinant of worth, etc.

    I hope FL is listening on this. Several people have said that it wasn't the WSO "problem" or even spam that was going to destroy the forum but the lack of interesting, insightful, experienced discussion that the WF has been known for for years. It appears this has come true.

    I'm not sure what can be done at this point, if anything, to save this formerly wonderful forum. And it's sad to see it die like this.

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author kk075
    Hey Brian- great post!

    You are 100% right, there is not quality conversations taking place here like there should be. Part of that is definitely the people here looking for blanket advice on how to to make a million dollars in the next twelve months by purchasing a program and pushing a magic button. That's the myth that drives everyone to internet marketing in the first place and once people realize it's a lie, most of them walk away with their feelings hurt.

    Then again, you find those types of people everywhere AND that's the main selling tool for informational products....everything will become easy once you discover my one amazing secret. So to judge the new members for having a certain expectation is almost unfair...because it was likely the members here that got them to drink the Kool-Aid in the first place.

    As a newer member to the forum though, I can only speak to my personal experiences and what others have conveyed on why quality topics are no longer shared freely. By a small minority, I am not welcome here because of the exact thing you're complaining about..new ideas are not appreciated because they pull the attention away from the get rich quick types. Dozens and dozens of others have told me they have experienced the exact same treatment...so they just quit posting topics and participating.

    Just remember that it's hard to have it both ways- either a forum is a place that's open for everyone or its a private community. But for any forum to remain relevant, it has to embrace all of its the members and offer genuine incentives to log in. And in a nutshell, I think that has changed the culture just as much as the Freelancer buyout...it has simply stopped being about people that want to hone their craft in marketing.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Where's the "Thunderous Applause" emoji???

      A lot of great minds have moved on from the forum and left a great void. The kind of void that I don't see being filled anytime soon (if ever).

      The whole post was spot on, Brian. Well done!

      P.S.
      I was gone for quite a while myself. So if there's some new watering hole where some of those great Warriors of the past are gathering, someone please PM me the address. In the meantime, I'll keep checking in here in hopes of seeing more threads of substance like this one.
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  • Profile picture of the author Randall Magwood
    That's why i don't like making excuses. I don't want to get cursed out the way Brian did in the 1st post on this thread LOL.

    Great post! I'm an action taker.
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  • Profile picture of the author icoachu
    The only thing that is constant in life is CHANGE.

    Adapt or die.

    As far as 'sentient marketers' well, skill sets change with time.

    I've picked up tons of gems from newbies here and I expect to make even more money off 'newer newbies' advice and brainstorms in the future.
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    • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
      Interesting thread Brian as usual.

      You made a lot of interesting ( and accurate) points. But I do have a question that I've posed from time to time. The majority of peope who come here and start threads are for the most part newbies. And it's natural the same questions begin to come up over and over, especially if you're a vet or a regular.

      As a result those same questions can bore, sometimes irritate or even flatline the interests of the more seasoned, experienced or regular visitors. So, my obvious question is ...

      Why don't more of the experienced veterans start more threads?

      When you look at it, is it really fair to even expect people who have a new or just passing interest with the responsibility of starting edge-of-your seat engaging threads? Most are probably doing good just to work up enough shaky-kneed courage to start a thread, much less start lights out threads that thrill all veterans here.

      That's why I'd personally like to see more of the veterans who just play the role of responding to threads start creating more. That in itself would make it more interesting to me, probably other veterans and probably even newbies.

      It's obvious many veterans, and seasoned marketers have many experiences, knowledge and skills. Share it. Wouldn't that make it more interesting?

      So why don't more veterans start more threads? Any thoughts on that?

      However, Brian I thank you for starting this one. - Peace!
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      • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
        Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

        Why don' more of the experienced veterans start more threads?

        If you look I posted a new thread yesterday and it now sits on page 3 without a single comment or response. The problem isn't experienced guys not posting more often, the problem is the guys with no experience want us to lay everything out for them step by step so that they can make money without any work on their part.


        This isn't always true, but it is more often than not.
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        • Profile picture of the author XponentSYS
          Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

          If you look I posted a new thread yesterday and it now sits on page 3 without a single comment or response. The problem isn't experienced guys not posting more often, the problem is the guys with no experience want us to lay everything out for them step by step so that they can make money without any work on their part.


          This isn't always true, but it is more often than not.
          I'm one of the "vets". Been a full time self employed marketer for 15 years. I agree with both the OP as well as this post.

          In my career, Ive probably forgotten more than most know. I used to serve up lots of threads detailing valuable information that is responsible for MY success. Often times, that would start a thrilling discussion.

          Not so much the case of late. More and more, I have results similar to those you describe.

          That's fine with me - I'll save that info for those who want it - and will actually USE it. Those people are usually my NL subs, blog subs and my paying members and customers. I think a lot of seasoned vets who used to start threads share a similar sentiment.
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          • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
            Banned
            This thread looks like a lot of people who've been used to using the forum
            for their own self promotion, suddenly finding it doesn't work anymore.
            Any now they're all moaning about it.
            Very sad.

            Originally Posted by XponentSYS View Post

            I'll save that info for those who want it
            That's how it used to be here.
            Now we just get lectured on a daily basis by the self elected know it alls.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
              Les, I've asked before and I think this is the perfect thread to ask it again:

              What do YOU want in this forum? You are one of the ones that do a lot of reporting of bad threads which is good. But you also seem negative about almost everything: success stories, tips, people answering posts, or anything else resembling discussion.

              Especially ironic is when you complain about people posting to get their sig seen but it seems to some you complain to get your sig seen. What's the difference?

              You don't want to be lectured by "self elected know it alls" and you seemingly don't want newbies posting their threads asking for help in making money so what kind of threads can be posted and not reported or complained about by you and others?

              And you know, that just because someone breaks a rule one time or bumps a thread or whatever doesn't make them bad or worthless and put everything they post up for reporting because of the past.

              Not an attack - an honest question in a thread about the decline of the forum.

              Mark

              Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

              This thread looks like a lot of people who've been used to using the forum
              for their own self promotion, suddenly finding it doesn't work anymore.
              Any now they're all moaning about it.
              Very sad.


              That's how it used to be here.
              Now we just get lectured on a daily basis by the self elected know it alls.
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              • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

                Les, I've asked before and I think this is the perfect thread to ask it again:

                What do YOU want in this forum? You are one of the ones that do a lot of reporting of bad threads which is good. But you also seem negative about almost everything: success stories, tips, people answering posts, or anything else resembling discussion.

                Especially ironic is when you complain about people posting to get their sig seen but it seems to some you complain to get your sig seen. What's the difference?

                You don't want to be lectured by "self elected know it alls" and you seemingly don't want newbies posting their threads asking for help in making money so what kind of threads can be posted and not reported or complained about by you and others?

                And you know, that just because someone breaks a rule one time or bumps a thread or whatever doesn't make them bad or worthless and put everything they post up for reporting because of the past.

                Not an attack - an honest question in a thread about the decline of the forum.

                Mark
                Mark, I don't think you had all the facts correct before making this assumption.
                But never mind, there's a lot of it about.

                As you pointed out, this is a discussion forum.

                Surely I don't have to believe every outrageous claim and join in with the
                others with "wow great post"

                And so what if I don't believe any of them?
                If they are genuine they have lost nothing because of my negative reaction.

                The fact that so many throw a tantrum seems to suggest that a negative comment
                might just have peed on their fireworks.

                Or maybe you would like there to be a new rule, only allowing positive comments?
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                • Profile picture of the author discrat
                  Glory days , smory days !!

                  As a few have said the Times are a Changing.

                  Quit trying to live in the past and move forward.

                  I see a lot of crap these days here, but I saw a lot of crap back in 2008 when I first joined.

                  Maybe a different type of crap but nonetheless still crap

                  My parents would always say the same thing about my 80s generation. "Oh Rob living in the 50s was so much better and people were so much better : yada yada yada

                  I would quickly retort "except our generation allows ALL people to drink from the same water fountain and use the same toilets."

                  So get over yourselves and adapt.

                  All stages and generations in Life have enough blame to go on and on and on about.


                  But whats the point ? As I said lets move forward, people !!

                  That being said I will say Thank You Brian for a great Post.

                  I thoroughly enjoy this discussion and the critical thinking involved here.

                  It is good to see and extremely refreshing

                  Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

                  Why don't more of the experienced veterans start more threads?
                  Roy,
                  A few months ago I made the decision NOT to start anymore Threads. I have always enjoyed engaging with people and getting people to discuss certain topics and using their analytical skills to partake in the Community and contribute to it.

                  But no more for me. Some of the same people I see on this Thread are the same ones bashing Members' Threads in the past and saying they are self promoting themselves etc..etc..

                  So I just got sick of it.

                  So no more for me. I'll pass



                  - Robert Andrew
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                    And so what if I don't believe any of them?
                    If they are genuine they have lost nothing because of my negative reaction.

                    The fact that so many throw a tantrum seems to suggest that a negative comment might just have peed on their fireworks.
                    That's a perfectly valid response to me. We need people like Les (and sometimes me, too) who say 'don't think so' or 'get real'....if only to counterbalance some of the pollyanna stuff some days. There's not much to say on this forum that hasn't been said many times before.

                    this thread inadvertently became a discussion about new members
                    ...because you took it there...?

                    I do appreciate the time you spent with that reply. You are 100% wrong in almost everything you said though.
                    That's the thing - someone else's opinion doesn't have to be wrong for you to be right. Ya know?
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                    • Profile picture of the author kk075
                      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                      ...because you took it there...?
                      The original poster took it there, but I'm glad that you mentioned it since I think it's part of the larger problem here. Why act so quickly to condemn comments in the first place? If this is in fact a public forum where everyone is free to share their experiences, then EVERYONE'S opinion should be heard...and not attacked when it does not necessarily align with your (or anyone's) beliefs.

                      People come here for conversations, and those who have been members for the past 10 minutes have the exact same right to contribute to conversations as those who have been here for 10 years. And when people try to bully them off the forum with constant negativity, you end up with what we have today....one thread with real conversations and 50 others with "where do I start".

                      In its current state, this forum is dying....not quite dead, but dying nonetheless. There is no denying that the quality of conversation is nothing like it was even three months ago and the rampant negativity is a prime reason.

                      For example, Social Media Ava started a thread on free web development tutorials. The 2nd person in that thread suggested a paid course, and a third member complained that the 2nd did not comment on the OP's ideas. Then the 2nd and 3rd posters argued over who was right or wrong....but they were both wrong. They completely hijacked a thread started with very good intentions....and the only other comment there was-

                      If I could thank you more than once I would.

                      Thank you
                      That thread is already halfway down page two which means it's all but officially dead...and it was a missed opportunity for great conversation. More than that though, it was a great resource for all the new people that are so frequently complained about here.

                      So when people claim that people aren't trying to start discussions here....that's simply not true. It happens every single day. But if the mentality remains that it's more important to put others in their place than contribute to those conversations, then Warrior Forum is all but dead....and it's not the noobs killing it either.
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                      • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by kk075 View Post

                        EVERYONE'S opinion should be heard...and not attacked
                        That's a contradication in itself.

                        We can only reply if we agree?
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                        • Profile picture of the author kk075
                          Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

                          That's a contradication in itself.

                          We can only reply if we agree?
                          I disagree with a lot of things that you post, there's nothing wrong with that. That's part of being a community.

                          As you can see though, I just disagreed with you RESPECTFULLY.

                          - I didn't call you any names.
                          - I didn't report your post.
                          - I didn't expect friends here to pile on making fun of you.
                          - I didn't say you don't belong here.
                          - I didn't say that your opinions do not belong here.
                          - I didn't complain about you in anther thread.
                          - I didn't PM anyone to complain about you.
                          - I didn't make a vow to keep reporting your new threads just out of spite.

                          I simply disagreed in a respectful way. And then I moved on.

                          But this type of thread is taking over the forum and they're not a discussion.
                          They are someones point of view that can't be challenged or you'll be branded negative.
                          This type of thread is not taking over the forum....because people are actually talking here and sharing their views. This post is actually a rarity here. But even if you're 100% right, so what?

                          Why does it bother you so much that people are communicating and enjoying a conversation? That's what forums are for. That's why everyone who's not pushing to sell something comes here.

                          And sure, I can see why people report posts where people are pushing their signatures and not really contributing anything other than, "Buy my stuff." I report those too. So that's not the type of stuff I'm talking about here. I'm talking abut trying to kill genuine conversations for no reason whatsoever.
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                      • Profile picture of the author seeqer
                        Originally Posted by kk075 View Post

                        The original poster took it there, but I'm glad that you mentioned it since I think it's part of the larger problem here. Why act so quickly to condemn comments in the first place? If this is in fact a public forum where everyone is free to share their experiences, then EVERYONE'S opinion should be heard...and not attacked when it does not necessarily align with your (or anyone's) beliefs.

                        People come here for conversations, and those who have been members for the past 10 minutes have the exact same right to contribute to conversations as those who have been here for 10 years. And when people try to bully them off the forum with constant negativity, you end up with what we have today....one thread with real conversations and 50 others with "where do I start".

                        In its current state, this forum is dying....not quite dead, but dying nonetheless. There is no denying that the quality of conversation is nothing like it was even three months ago and the rampant negativity is a prime reason.

                        For example, Social Media Ava started a thread on free web development tutorials. The 2nd person in that thread suggested a paid course, and a third member complained that the 2nd did not comment on the OP's ideas. Then the 2nd and 3rd posters argued over who was right or wrong....but they were both wrong. They completely hijacked a thread started with very good intentions....and the only other comment there was-



                        That thread is already halfway down page two which means it's all but officially dead...and it was a missed opportunity for great conversation. More than that though, it was a great resource for all the new people that are so frequently complained about here.

                        So when people claim that people aren't trying to start discussions here....that's simply not true. It happens every single day. But if the mentality remains that it's more important to put others in their place than contribute to those conversations, then Warrior Forum is all but dead....and it's not the noobs killing it either.
                        Wait ... are you suggesting me thanking the OP of that thread in my post and as well with the thank you button is ... not a good thing to do?

                        If that is the case, in the future I shall just press the thank you button in the future and simply move on.

                        It was an awesome post Social Media Ava made. I was super happy about it. I was actually thinking to look for courses but for some reason, I did not think about youtube because I was thinking I would find only crap courses or courses that did not tell much all aimed at the super newbies.

                        So if I made a mistake, I apologize.
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                        • Profile picture of the author kk075
                          Originally Posted by seeqer View Post

                          Wait ... are you suggesting me thanking the OP of that thread in my post and as well with the thank you button is ... not a good thing to do?

                          If that is the case, in the future I shall just press the thank you button in the future and simply move on.

                          It was an awesome post Social Media Ava made. I was super happy about it. I was actually thinking to look for courses but for some reason, I did not think about youtube because I was thinking I would find only crap courses or courses that did not tell much all aimed at the super newbies.

                          So if I made a mistake, I apologize.
                          No, I'm saying that you found it super-helpful and I was commending Ava on the post...and that was a conversation that should have been kept alive.

                          If more people like you were able to see it and comment on it though, then who knows where the thread could have led. So no, I didn't mean to say that you did anything wrong at all...you did something very, very right and I'm sure Ava appreciated it.
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                    • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
                      Thanks to those who responded to my question - as to why more vets don't start more threads. I've learned a lot more from the answers than I have in my previous 4 years on the W.F.

                      But I must admit, I was kinda surprised at the answers. Most had a similar reason ...

                      "I stopped creating theads because I was criticized" -or- people didn't appreciate or respond to it".

                      I can respect that. But personally, unless the moderator, manager or owner of the Warrior Forum criticizes me, no one else's criticism matters enough for me to stop expressing my opinion, thoughts or creating threads.

                      In fact, if I'm not criticised, told my idea is crazy or said to be stretching it a little - that's a sign to me I've been playing it "too safe" and need to double-down. But to each his own.

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      • Profile picture of the author kk075
        Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

        So why don't more veterans start more threads? Any thoughts on that?
        When it comes to new threads, you were the first person who came to mind...you're starting conversations just about every day and it's a great service to the community. But others are not as widely accepted here and they are essentially blacklisted by those who don't want to hear it.

        For example, I had mentioned building local niches and affiliating with local professionals in one thread, and hundreds asked me for more information about the techniques I used. So I spent an hour of my day typing out a full, step-by-step guide...and it was deleted within five minutes. So I contacted a mod to inquire why and he said it was reported multiple times for being a "follow me" thread...and he said to re-post it without any mention of myself.

        So I edited through it, deleted any links (which weren't to my sites to begin with) and re-posted this specific topic that people asked me daily about- and it got moved to the off-topic section in about 3 minutes. Why? More reporting by the same individuals, and they kept it up until the mods appeased them. So it was effectively buried just because it could be if you know how to work the system and target certain people.

        That's why I personally don't start any more topics...it's just not worth the time trying to help folks while a slim minority with a grudge will go out of their way to block it. Dozens of others have said they have the exact same experience and they got tired of the games, and that's why the main page is filled with noobie questions and WSO signatures. It's sad but also completely true.....real conversations are no longer welcomed here.
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      • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
        Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

        So why don't more veterans start more threads? Any thoughts on that?
        Smarter people look to avoid trouble before it happens and Its probably better to just lay low in the background than become involved with much of the general banter, less stress these days that way.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    People that follow the rules (letter and spirit of the law) don't normally purposefully get their threads deleted. And if they are reported they can appeal and have a chance of winning.

    For example (from my understanding of the rules - probably missed some but this is most of them):

    Follow me type posts aren't generally allowed such as "I will start doing XYZ and report back every day about my progress."

    Self promotion type posts aren't generally allowed such as "I've created a new report and you can see it on my site after you opt-in."

    Incomplete posts aren't generally allowed such as "Here's a link to a post I wrote on my blog last week." Post the blog post here or its generally considered no-no.

    "PM me for more info" posts aren't generally allowed.

    Posts obviously doing presales for a WSO aren't generally allowed.

    Posts with affiliate links aren't generally allowed. In some cases when people use URL shorteners they may be considered affiliate links even if they aren't. No one needs to track or hide a URL on posts in my opinion.

    Posts asking the same exact questions that have been asked before may not survive.

    Posts that are reposted after being deleted will probably also be deleted.

    Posts complaining or asking about a deleted post are generally deleted.

    Posts "outing" someone generally aren't allowed. However, negative posts (if done the right way - logical not emotional, facts, no name calling, etc.) may be allowed in the Reviews section or if it's a WSO in the WSO thread.

    Long articles sometimes aren't allowed. Those can be put in the WR or on the member's WF blog.

    Posts that aren't written by the poster generally aren't allowed.

    And all of this is subject to interpretation and judgment by members which are member moderators and the official moderators. For example, if an article was written by a person with one post that may be reported but a person with a history of helping and giving back may be able to post the exact same article with no problem.

    Mark

    Edit: Also posts posted in the wrong subforum may be deleted or moved to the appropriate area.

    Edit: Posts that seem to try to fool people may not last. For example, some people claim nothing is for sale on their blog (or give that impression) as justification for including a link to it but in reality there are things for sale on their blog. This also reduces the trust and makes it more likely to be a target of reporters and mods in the future.

    Edit: Unhelpful one liner posts or other nonsensical things with a sig may be reported and deleted for obviously trying to game the system.
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  • Profile picture of the author Troysean
    Great post today is my first time scrolling through these forums this happened to be the first post I read. And what a great post it is , these are things I have heard before but its so true. It is something I am learning on a daily basis with my personal blog I run.
    I went ahead and scribble a couple of your quotes down on my whiteboard to help me remember them. It was a real pleasure reading this keep it up !
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  • Profile picture of the author kdrinky12
    I think the forum is in a rebuild stage and maybe the more experienced members can show a little patience. Take the time to answer some newbie posts and guide these people in the right direction when necessary. Sure it can be frustrating seeing all of these new threads asking the same questions over and over but is someone new to the forum going to know their repeating old questions? Probably not, it might be nice to just let them know so they can check old threads before starting a new one. Maybe we can get the forum back to the way it was with just a little guidance.
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    • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
      Good post and good discussions and viewpoints. But could some of the older members explain the "Glory Days" everyone keeps referring to. I'm not new here by any means (Joined in 2011).

      But could someone give us a glimpse. Perhaps for the newbies reading this and the forgetful veterans like me.

      For example,
      • Did the more experieced start threads back then?
      • Did the newbies ask a wide variety of questions that were seldom repeated?
      • Did both sides get along better than they do now?
      Or any other fond memories you can recall. Please!


      Give us a snapshot of what we should be striving for that makes many of the older members keep longing for and looking back to the Good-Ole-Days!

      Thanks for sharing.
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      • Profile picture of the author satrap
        Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

        Good post and good discussions and viewpoints. But could some of the older members explain the "Glory Days" everyone keeps referring to. I'm not new here by any means (Joined in 2011).

        But could someone give us a glimpse. Perhaps for the newbies reading this and the forgetful veterans like me.

        For example,
        • Did the more experieced start threads back then?
        • Did the newbies ask a wide variety of questions that were seldom repeated?
        • Did both sides get along better than they do now?
        Or any other fond memories you can recall. Please!


        Give us a snapshot of what we should be striving for that makes many of the older members keep longing for and looking back to the Good-Ole-Days!

        Thanks for sharing.

        Back then...

        100% with you on this. It's the age old cliche everybody uses and for some reason it seems like all humans think "old days" were better.

        That said, I also agree with many of the points the OP made. It does seem like a lot of old timers have left the forum.
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      • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
        Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

        But could someone give us a glimpse. Perhaps for the newbies reading this and the forgetful veterans like me.

        Way back when, new people checked the search feature and learned for a week or two before they decided to test the waters and make a post or two. The attitude then was that you are welcome to join a conversation and give your point of view even if you are totally new to IM.


        The "vets" created at least 95% of the content then, not the maybe 5% like now. We freely gave our time and offered advice where we could because new people waited until they knew enough to figure out what they didn't know, on average anyway.


        Back then WSO's were used ONLY as a way to give back to the community, not as a complete business model. We got a ton of quality here so we gave back the best we could.


        Some "vets" even took a newbie or two under their wings and coached them on getting up and running, free of any charge whatsoever just because we had a community of great people who knew a hell of a lot and wanted to see everyone succeed.


        I know there is a lot I'm leaving out but right now I have a head cold and can barely think straight.
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    • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
      Originally Posted by kdrinky12 View Post

      I think the forum is in a rebuild stage and maybe the more experienced members can show a little patience. Take the time to answer some newbie posts and guide these people in the right direction when necessary. Sure it can be frustrating seeing all of these new threads asking the same questions over and over but is someone new to the forum going to know their repeating old questions? Probably not, it might be nice to just let them know so they can check old threads before starting a new one. Maybe we can get the forum back to the way it was with just a little guidance.

      You aren't going to find many old timers freely giving their time here when people can't even use the search feature. There is almost a decade of knowledge within these pages, but no one seems to know how to even click a link these days.


      If you look at the top of the main forum page for this section, you will see a whole bunch of links to searchs using keywords. Everything you need to start making money is sitting at the top of the page, but how many people actually click those links instead of asking the same questions we saw 10 years ago?
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      • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
        Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

        There is almost a decade of knowledge within these pages, but no one seems to know how to even click a link these days.


        If you look at the top of the main forum page for this section, you will see a whole bunch of links to searches using keywords. Everything you need to start making money is sitting at the top of the page, but how many people actually click those links instead of asking the same questions we saw 10 years ago?
        That's a good point. I haven't quite been able to wrap my head around that dilemma. Because that's the first thing I did when I first came to this forum back in 2011. Before I joined, before I asked one question or made one comment, I read through past threads on a variety of subjects for a whole month.

        I did it just so I wouldn't ask the same questions over. But if I did, I'd add an extra follow-up question, come at it from a different angle or expand on it by applying it to a different situation or circumstance. And most vets gave me a ton of information (almost article size) from those small questions back then.

        But sometimes I think many newbies think they're getting the most current information by asking in the forum; As opposed to looking through old dusty threads of the past. Maybe. (Note: Playing Devils advocate)
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      • Profile picture of the author kdrinky12
        Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

        You aren't going to find many old timers freely giving their time here when people can't even use the search feature. There is almost a decade of knowledge within these pages, but no one seems to know how to even click a link these days.


        If you look at the top of the main forum page for this section, you will see a whole bunch of links to searchs using keywords. Everything you need to start making money is sitting at the top of the page, but how many people actually click those links instead of asking the same questions we saw 10 years ago?
        I can't disagree with what you are saying about using the links at the top, that makes total sense. With that said the questions that were asked 10 years ago, were they answered? Were those people guided in the right direction? Was there a little more patience shown by the elders or have years of the same thing eroded that patience just a little bit? Let me know what you think?
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      • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
        Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

        You aren't going to find many old timers freely giving their time here when people can't even use the search feature. There is almost a decade of knowledge within these pages, but no one seems to know how to even click a link these days.
        So true. I searched the CF archives so often when I first came here that I started a list of the best posts, and that list has proven very popular. Some the brightest IM marketing minds started here at WF. The gold is in there, people just need to dig for it.
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  • Profile picture of the author NeedBucksNow
    More often than not, I see to use the search button when a newbie asks a question about getting started online. While they may have no idea how to use this, you can bet that the same questions have already been asked and answered several times before. The only time I even post a question anymore is if I can't already find it before hand. The people looking for a magic button will never last because they don't have the right mindset to begin with. To be successful, you often need some trial and error 1st and after you make some mistakes you'll end up getting better. Just my 2 cents but most of the people that are making money online, have already been through the learning curve and put in their time and hard work.
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  • Profile picture of the author Christopher Fox
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      • Profile picture of the author Christopher Fox
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        • Profile picture of the author Jack Gordon
          Originally Posted by Christopher Fox View Post

          Well, no need to be all coy about it, Jack. Tell us the word, lol. I'll get to the bolded part in a minute.
          The word, since it was not obvious to you, was socialism.

          I just returned home from a vacation with my family, and can't even begin to draw the energy required to respond to the rest of your rant. Even if I could, I doubt it would be productive.

          I'll just say this... clearly, you know nothing about me. I am not so narcissistic that I think you should know anything about me, but it might be useful to do that kind of research before making such public assumptions that are so clearly refutable.

          In any case, I hope you have a really good bowel movement tonight, and that it helps remove some of that anger and resentment you have against white, successful people. Not all of us are the oppressors you seem to be so obsessed with.

          Pleasant dreams, Mr. Fox.
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  • Profile picture of the author DWolfe
    First off Thank You Brian. Reading some of the post above. A newbie complained a thread they started was removed by the moderators. Claiming those in the MMO Nich did not like new information ? First off how did the person know who flagged it down ? Second the Mods here before Free Lancer took over have left this place. Were any original here mods in 2015 ?? Maybe try not blaming the older members or moderators in your post..


    Second another member complained about the original poster had a thing against India ?? Here is Brian's quote from his post.

    "The changing complexion of the Warrior Forum goes much deeper than just difficulties with language barriers and challenges with cultural differences - although both have become epidemic. "


    Show me the word ...Indian or other country mention in this line. I scanned the entire original post and did not find a specific country mention ! We missing something here.


    A lot of gold still exists today but you need to use the search feature to dig for it. Expecting to make "quick" "easy" money is not going to happen. I would not expect the content in the main forum is going to change soon. Here is a good idea.Take Brian's post and copy and paste, his how to section somewhere on your computer. Or better yet print this part out and remember it.
    1. You identify an audience seeking a solution to a problem they have.
    2. You create value by figuring out the best way to help them solve their problem.
    3. You offer your superior solution to that audience.
    Do this and apply it ! You have your first golden nugget offered here in this thread.
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    • Profile picture of the author kk075
      Originally Posted by DWolfe View Post

      First off Thank You Brian. Reading some of the post above. A newbie complained a thread they started was removed by the moderators. Claiming those in the MMO Nich did not like new information ? First off how did the person know who flagged it down ? Second the Mods here before Free Lancer took over have left this place. Were any original here mods in 2015 ?? Maybe try not blaming the older members or moderators in your post..
      First, that newbie did not say one thread- he said ALL THREADS. And obviously he said that it was taken down by the current moderators since those are the moderators that are currently here. I'm not sure how either of those statements got lost in translation.

      Your second statement is incorrect, however, not all the moderators have left. They simply are not moderators any more.

      As far as how I know who flagged everything I posted, the major clue was the 15+ other posts where the person complained about me. Or the infraction he tried to assign. Or my conversation with the new moderators about why this older member is allowed to freely harass new members, despite clearly violating the rules. All of those things were major clues for someone that pays attention.

      And for the record, I did not blame the new moderators...they were doing their jobs. There's nothing wrong with that as long as the rules work the same for everyone.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brent Stangel
    Do You Want To Make Money Or Make Excuses?
    I want to make a pitcher of Mimosas!
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  • Profile picture of the author Jonathan Vodini
    thanks for your post mate, you have really encouraged me to go more further into IM, and give my best to reach success in it, especially now that i miserable failed after a little project i was creating,
    cheers
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    • Profile picture of the author Social Media Ava
      This is a great thread, and if it's any example of the type of discussions that used to take place here, then I am disappointed that I somehow missed it in my tenure. I've gone days, weeks, and months without visiting the forums in the past. I've only recently begun checking it on a daily basis as I'm running some experiments like threads in Warrior for Hire and the War Room.

      It's a little unfair to generalize newbies. Not everyone is looking to get rich quick or thinks they're special. I think if Internet Marketing were a little friendlier instead of maintaining this ongoing air of mystery, everyone, including myself, wouldn't whine so much or ask dumb questions. After all, there's an extremely large group of so-called "gurus" who are marketing specifically to this demographic. That's how some "marketers" make all their money is by selling shiny objects promising newbs a start as outlined in Brian's 5th bullet point in the OP.

      When I arrived on the IM forum scene in 2006 over at Digital Point, the way to make a buck was to start out in the service realm. I start writing, and I began at the bottom of the barrel, and I'm honestly not far from that place now. Over the years, I've built a robust skill set ranging from WordPress to SEO to Social Media Marketing to publishing...ad infinitum. For all of the things I've learned, the time I've put in, and all of the hard work, I still click on the $100 a day posts to see if there's anything new to try because that would be life-changing money for me....and I'm AMERICAN!!

      I've had people tell me to move on from IM; that I'm just not cut out for it, but I know there's a niche for me here. I think the big problem is there is no general blueprint for people to get started. For example, when you start any job, you normally begin with a job title and description that provides a decent image of what you're supposed to do. IM isn't like that. There's a thousand ways to make money, and you have to create your own title and description from scratch. This is much harder than it would initially seem when you really think about. Then the higher ups, don't want to tell you too much about your new job because you might get a slice of their pie.

      If you happen to be lucky enough to find your job title early on, you will most likely become one of those people selling newbies a method that worked for you. The thing that people don't realize is all of the methods we attempt to follow are dominated by the percentage of people who got lucky, and that number is much lower than we realize. Just because it worked for one person that one time is no guarantee it will work for someone else, and certainly shouldn't warrant the creation of a new WSO.

      The thing with IM is that of the hundreds of thousands of people who step to it to make their fortune, probably fewer than 5% actually succeed.

      If every newbie had to read that sentence before signing up to the forums, do you think it would deter them? I don't because it's like playing the lottery. We were all told when we were growing up that we could have and be anything we wanted, and many of us are here to claim our slice. For many, this is the last resort. To give up on this would be to stop living.

      I'm sorry for those who lost their station when Freelancer came on the scene here at WF. That must have been difficult to take. Moderator positions at forums like this are coveted spots in my experience. To achieve that, and then lose it for no reason sucks. I'm not impressed with the corporate takeover, but where else can we go? I would love a place where I could contribute rather than just add to the noise.

      I don't think less posts from the veterans is the way to go, but hey, if you feel your time is wasted, I can't blame you either. Ultimately, what is the solution? There doesn't seem to be one. Just this random reminiscence of what was with no aspiration for improvement. That seems to make this diatribe pretty useless in and of itself now, doesn't it?
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      • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
        Originally Posted by Social Media Ava View Post


        The thing with IM is that of the hundreds of thousands of people who step to it to make their fortune, probably fewer than 5% actually succeed.
        Probably closer to .001 % as it is with Network/MLM marketing off line.

        30 years ago there were unspoken rules, enforced by the managers of bulletin boards, and one of those was: no COMMERCE, except for the selling of computer parts, software or related information.

        At that time the Get Rich in Mailorder folks were finding a steady stream of new customers. MOST of whom never did anything with the information, no matter how much was paid. So things (humans too) haven't changed.

        Enough history. Today.

        EVERYONE has a voice. And public forums are the places where they can be heard.

        Some screech, some whisper but whether we listen to any of them is a choice.

        I get deleted as much as anyone. OK, it is their forum, so I shrug it off. I control my forum, they control theirs.

        If my posts don't get read, that's OK. If the haters come out, always had them. we always will. Even little ol lovable and cuddly me have had rotten tomatoes tossed my way.

        I get the OP, and I get the newb too. When the dust settles, when the smoke clears, each of us can choose to stay, go, contribute or not. There will be leaders, some successful warriors and more newbs.

        Just keep in mind, time does not stand still and things change.

        But the constant which is always in play, is, your choice on what you want to do. It was the constant 50 years ago, it will be in another 50.

        gjabiz

        PS. I quit getting frustrated with other people around the third grade, when I realized they were all jerks (except for the ones who agreed with me).
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    Thanks for the replies, gang - especially the new folks who've found it useful... clearly not a waste of time and makes me glad I posted it.

    NicheMan asks, "Why don't more vets start threads?"

    There's a couple of juicy examples in this very thread.

    One guy is triggered by my use of the word "invasion" then dives head first into the deep end of psychological projection and transference, attacking me personally, twisting my phrase about get-rich-quick opportunity seekers into a racist condemnation of Indians. LOL, wut? In reaction, he builds himself a huge, ugly straw man to burn in effigy while painting me, being a copywriter and all, as responsible for (or at least emblematic of) all that's impure in the IM market. Yawn.

    Another guy that's been playing the same broken record here on endless loop for years cynically waves off the entire conversation as nothing more than sour grapes over not being able to self-promote effectively anymore. "Very sad", indeed.

    Nothing new there... these kinds of "turd in the punchbowl" responses have been poisoning threads since forever. It's 100% predictable. But reassuringly, we're also seeing a bit of the past make a comeback here in this thread too, with folks calling that behavior out, trying to keep the point of the original post on track.

    Some have asked what was so good about the "good old days". Well, this is possibly the biggest issue, right there.

    Many of the best, most informative threads evolve out of sometimes heated debate, wrongheaded rants or misinformation being posted. The more experienced members jump in, correcting the BS when it appears, shaming the bad actors into behaving better, and everyone gets something out it, either new understanding or at the very least a moment of entertainment.

    Most of that goes unchallenged now... which is the crux of the problem, really.

    It's so much easier to go, "Sigh... <clicks away>".

    And there's so little incentive to do anything else BUT that.
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    • Profile picture of the author Stephen Crooks
      Couldn't agree more Brian.. I have been here for about as long as you and have noticed the exact same decline in the "soul" of the warrior forum.

      Without wanting to sound like an old fart harping back to the good ol' days when warriors would wax lyrical with stunning repartee. No, there has always been a wide and varied mixture of people on here, like you have already pointed out Brian.

      To me, the difference now is that there is too much noise and not enough substance. There are too many threads with poor contributions from people with little to know experience offering awful advice. The experienced marketers have been bored into not bothering any more which is an utter shame!

      I can see that the WAMA section is potentially very good but it also just seems like a crying shame to me that the gold nuggets that used to be found within the forum have all but disappeared. It is almost like the WAMA section has become like a big glossy billboard to something of value when it should be just normal for the warrior forum as a whole.
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    • Profile picture of the author icoachu
      Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod View Post


      It's so much easier to go, "Sigh... <clicks away>".

      And there's so little incentive to do anything else BUT that.
      Do you have any other place to go?

      Indeed, there is at least one thread here (recently) on WF that says other forums are LESS HOSPITABLE than WF.

      Simply put, people are nice... or at least, painfully polite here.

      With other forums, not so much.
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      • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
        Originally Posted by icoachu View Post

        Do you have any other place to go?
        Nope... nowhere else to go but here in snarkville.
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        • Profile picture of the author Lance K
          I'm starting to feel all warm and fuzzy.

          We've got some spirited, yet civil (mostly) discussion going on in this thread. A little bit of tomfoolery, but for the most part a good conversation started by a well thought out and well presented OP. Heck, it even got Willie to pop back in and comment.

          Overall I'd say this thread is a much needed win for the forum.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chri5123
    Brian,

    Would just like to say that is one of the BEST threads and piece of advice I have EVER read here.

    I hope you DO stick around - took me YEARS to work out what you have put in this thread and it is spot on in mu opinion.

    Thanks for taking the time to write it and hope you DO stick around - without people like you this forum will fall - no doubt.

    All the best,

    Chris Jones
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  • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Not one person in this thread put any race of people down. Specific areas of the world are only being thrown around by one person, you.
      I don't understand how someone can come up with a grand conspiracy against people of one large nation when the topic was not mentioned in the thread. Silly, huh?

      Some time ago, I posted an opinion in a thread and was attacked by someone by PM for things I didn't say in the post. When I suggested reading what I SAID would be smart before arguing with it...the PM I received was along these lines:

      "I KNOW you didn't SAY that in your post - I'm not stupid. I also KNOW that's what you were THINKING and that's what I was responding to."

      Ok....whatever....not stupid, huh? Who would have thunk it?

      We post in the assumption others are here for the same reasons as we are - others mean well as we do - and, of course, WE always mean well, don't we? Truth is there are people here with social, emotional and mental issues, or with agendas. There are people who want attention or like to argue. A public forum is a slice of the human race - bound to be messy and smelly at times.
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  • Profile picture of the author Willie Crawford
    Excellent post Brian, and excellent observations.

    I believe that I joined the forum before Y2K, but I could be wrong. I remember
    us changing platforms several times. I've been in/around internet marketing
    for over 18 years... making me a dinosaur


    I was a moderator for 4 1/2 years.

    There are no magic buttons, and no secrets, although some things some people
    keep close to the chest... and that only makes sense.


    It takes hard work, persistence, a willingness to fail (often many times) and
    to keep picking yourself back up.

    It also takes the ability to clearly spot what the market WANTS and just
    offering it to them.

    It takes choosing a niche, flowing out a plan, and then sticking with it long
    enough to give it a chance to work. Shiny object syndrome, and jumping
    from latest-hot-niche to latest-hot-niche keeps many from making any real
    forward momentum.

    There is lots of money to be made online!

    The formula is simply:

    Sell what people want, to those who can and are willing to pay for it!

    Willie
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  • Profile picture of the author todd001
    As a newbie with no posts, I can't thank you with the button. But this post resonates for many reasons. Thank you!
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    • Profile picture of the author Moto
      As another ...newbie...Thank you Brian , I have been trawling this forum for a good while now , and the good info is still here , but you do have to wade through a lot of ...umm... how can I put it ? not so good stuff to find it . Thanks for posting this .
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  • Profile picture of the author Brent Stangel
    Most of that goes unchallenged now
    Actual (no I'm not digging for it) post: "Reality is a code word for negativity."

    to those who can and are willing to pay for it!
    Who are becoming more and more scarce around here.

    I keep wondering why I keep coming back, as it frustrates the hell out of me any more. When you have something you thoroughly enjoyed being a part of become something you don't recognize or get the same satisfaction from it's strange.

    I guess it's that occasionally, there is a little spark here and there? Times when you can almost see the lights going on and the wheels turning because you provided a missing part of the puzzle and the OP ran with it. I guess that is still worth the down sides.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Keith,

    You seem like a sensible, likable, fellow. However, I think you are way off track here with some of your comments.

    The dozens of people that have supposedly complained to you about threads being deleted were breaking the rules. Period. End of story.

    Maybe it was the spirit of the law or maybe it was blatant. But they were breaking the rules or their threads wouldn't have been deleted.

    Do you really, honestly believe that there is some grand conspiracy of old timers here to get certain information deleted? How in the world can anyone believe that when many of us have openly and bitterly complained about the hundreds of threads posted that are allowed to stay?

    Why would this group of haters of free information get your threads shut down but all the other nonsensical junk stays? Why would that be allowed by moderators or management?

    As far as your "stalker", that's one guy. A guy with a negative attitude about many things in the forum. Read through most of us his posts and you'll see that most of what he does, contribution wise, is reporting people that break rules. But it's one guy. Don't you think the mods are smart enough to realize that one guy complaining shouldn't get threads shut down?

    That is why I posted the list of rules as I understand them. When people break those rules shouldn't they be reported? Not by self appointed forum police as some negatively call people that report things but by management "appointed" member moderators? Read the stickies. They want people to help keep the forum clean.

    It's also unwise, I think, to feel like we know who is reporting our posts. The fact is, unless a mod tells us exactly who reported us, we don't know.

    Your local affiliate thread is still in the main forum. It's not in off topic. Now maybe it was moved there by mistake but it's not there now. Why would a mod (the only one with power to move a thread) say that an obvious marketing thread was off topic unless it was a mistake. I read your post. It's clear as day that this isn't off topic. So could it have been a mistake by a mod in moving it versus some group trying to get you shut down?

    So, I'm not buying your argument that dozens of highly valuable threads were being deleted so that's why no one is posting here anymore. I'm not saying you are lying. I'm saying that whoever is feeding you this is off base. It's just not happening on any kind of large scale basis. Lord it would be wonderful if we could get some of this junk shut down but unless they are breaking obvious rules they are not deleted.

    This post is made with the intent to discuss not attack or be negative. I have always tried to be fair and give the benefit of the doubt no matter the topic or no matter the poster. I think, since you threw this out there though, that it's fair game for an open discussion.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author kk075
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      Keith,

      You seem like a sensible, likable, fellow. However, I think you are way off track here with some of your comments.
      Like I said, this thread inadvertently became a discussion about new members posting nonsense, and the question was raised about why actual discussions do not take place more often.I simply provided my opinion and the opinion of many who do not have the courage to post here themselves.

      Since you are not a new member and you are not trying to start new conversations regularly, you obviously would not have the same experiences as the "noobs" or "lurkers". Just keep that in mind before trying to pass judgement.

      I only replied because you seem like a nice guy as well, and I do appreciate the time you spent with that reply. You are 100% wrong in almost everything you said though.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Les, I think in any discussion there needs to have the potential for good/bad comments, positive/negative words, and, cheers/jeers. If not, it's not a real discussion.

    The reason I asked you this is because I agree with Kay, we need people like you. The thing is that a lot of people say that they aren't starting threads anymore because of people like you (and maybe me). Two here have said it in this thread.

    If all the experienced discussion goes away, as it has for the most part, we are left with all the newbie questions and all the fakers (along with a minority that know what they are doing) trying to get a piece of that newbie action. The people that know better aren't posting, aren't helping, and aren't starting threads for the most part. But they are vocal in their negativity.

    If something doesn't change, it will keep going down the same path it has been for a while. I agree with some here that say that the decline in discussion quality started before FL took over but it's rapidly accelerated since then.

    What will change if the experienced aren't willing to take a bigger part in the discussion? I say nothing will change and we all might as well hang it up and cherish the memories.

    I normally don't start threads but I do try to help where I can and when I have time. Change needs to come from all of us though. If we don't lift the level of discussion, no one will. We need people of experience to not just be negative though - we need people of experience to somehow find a way to share that experience as part of that discussion quality raising project.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post


      The reason I asked you this is because I agree with Kay, we need people like you. The thing is that a lot of people say that they aren't starting threads anymore because of people like you (and maybe me). Two here have said it in this thread.
      Yes Mark, one of them has spent a lot of time PM'ing people and mods about it
      making me the bad guy. Tells it's own story really.
      Must have hit a nerve.

      I can see why it appears I only post negative comments as I rarely post
      "great post"
      Not a lot of point really in amongst the dozens of others it would get lost.

      If being negative stops just one person wasting their money on false hopes
      then it's worth it.
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post


      . Change needs to come from all of us though. If we don't lift the level of discussion, no one will. We need people of experience to not just be negative though - we need people of experience to somehow find a way to share that experience as part of that discussion quality raising project.

      Mark
      There is nothing wrong with being critical and negative. People should always question others and their assertions

      Here is the problem... some of these same bashers just give one or two line negative diatribe.
      Really sarcastic replies that offer ZILCH value.

      These are experienced. long time Members and they will NOT expound on their negativity.

      Something like "oh great post now that you gotta a little sig exposed, right ? "

      I have seen really good material posted by people for instance like Tom Addams and kk who continually get bashed by certain Members.

      Instead of adding to the Community these bashers want to get their little one or two liners telling the OPs how they are just a bunch of self promoting charlatans.

      This adds nothing to the Community at all.
      And actually just adds to the problem !!


      Sure I do this to some of the noobie Thread starters who are obviously spamming and getting sig expose.

      But I am talking about sincere members here who are really attempting to Post relevant and very in depth Threads and they are getting constantly attacked with dearth replies by long time members !!

      EXPOUND people. EXPOUND !! Otherwise just do not reply at all

      Be a part of the solution NOT a part of the Problem !!!
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      • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
        Banned
        Originally Posted by discrat View Post


        But I am talking about sincere members here who are really attempting to Post relevant and very in depth Threads
        But this type of thread is taking over the forum, and they're not a discussion.
        They are someones point of view that can't be challenged or you'll be branded negative.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
          I think they are good discussion starters for the most part - especially when it's from people that have a little history of trying to help out versus just posting a drive by article.

          If none of these types of threads are allowed, how else does and will a discussion start around here? I'll tell you: "How can I make $100,000 every 6 months" or "Will PayPal let me sell an ebook" or "What is Clickbank's phone number."

          Mark

          Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

          But this type of thread is taking over the forum, and they're not a discussion.
          They are someones point of view that can't be challenged or you'll be branded negative.
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        • Profile picture of the author discrat
          Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

          But this type of thread is taking over the forum, and they're not a discussion.
          They are someones point of view that can't be challenged or you'll be branded negative.
          I think it is a matter of just implementing a good balance... You can be firm and " stick to your guns " while at the same time not being disrespectful and in attack mode
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        • Profile picture of the author Lance K
          Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

          But this type of thread is taking over the forum, and they're not a discussion.
          They are someones point of view that can't be challenged or you'll be branded negative.
          To me this thread is a discussion (multiple actually).

          And Les, I'd brand you as blunt moreso than negative. Sometimes people need blunt.
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        • Profile picture of the author discrat
          Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

          But this type of thread is taking over the forum, and they're not a discussion.
          They are someones point of view that can't be challenged or you'll be branded negative.
          Since when can't a discussion not include a point of view ??

          Go back to my very first Post on this Thread.

          Look how I approached the OP. I did not necessarily agree with everything he said. Actually a lot of it I disagreed with.

          But look at the decorum I used as I really think he made a very sound argument

          Like I said if anything the Forum should be a good "practice field" for many of the long term Members who really need to work on how to counter someone without attacking someone

          Its a skill that can be developed over time. One shiny example is Roy The Niche Blogger. He continually exhibits his expertise with this.

          He challenges people in a firm, confident tone while being very respectable and professional.

          I wish we had more like him here !

          Anyway, I really like what Iam seeing in this Thread.

          I hope it can continue in further Threads

          I have a suspicion that the cynics will not let it.

          But I will keep my fingers crossed
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            I think the questions is "since when can't conversations have opposing or differing points of view" - without someone claiming "you are wrong", "that is wrong", "you are negative".

            Les can be overly blunt at times - but he'll never hand you a cup of Koolaid.

            You will never see him post here and then go to his blog to write about how important his thread is on the WF. You don't see Les claim to speak for anyone but himself. I'm not saying those things are right or wrong - but it's a different focus for different people.

            Sometime personalities and forum styles simply don't co-exist well together. It happens - and that's why there is an 'ignore' function on this forum.

            I agree with Robert, though - there's more open and honest conversation in this thread than I've seen here for a while.
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            • Profile picture of the author discrat
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              I think the questions is "since when can't conversations have opposing or differing points of view" - without someone claiming "you are wrong", "that is wrong", "you are negative".

              .
              Good point. I think this is also the case. You have a certain number of people who think every time they write something it is worthy of a Pulitzer.

              And they get on the defense in an abrasive way when anyone might have a different perspective.

              It can turn into some nastiness real quick
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    • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post


      If all the experienced discussion goes away, as it has for the most part, we are left with all the newbie questions and all the fakers (along with a minority that know what they are doing) trying to get a piece of that newbie action. The people that know better aren't posting, aren't helping, and aren't starting threads for the most part. But they are vocal in their negativity.

      If something doesn't change, it will keep going down the same path it has been for a while. I agree with some here that say that the decline in discussion quality started before FL took over but it's rapidly accelerated since then.

      What will change if the experienced aren't willing to take a bigger part in the discussion? I say nothing will change and we all might as well hang it up and cherish the memories.

      Change needs to come from all of us though. If we don't lift the level of discussion, no one will. We need people of experience to not just be negative though - we need people of experience to somehow find a way to share that experience as part of that discussion quality raising project.

      Mark
      I kinda tried to say what you did, but you said it a whole lot better than I ever could. Especially the bolded part above.
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrick Batty
    I've been pretty much AWOL, doing my thing for a few years.

    I used to get wrapped up in discussions, but eventually just got turned off from it.

    I used to buy a lot of WSOs but eventually figured 90% were just rehashed stuff..
    I wasn;t getting successful by buying more stuff,

    It was only when I decided to forge my own path, being more a leader than a follower, and more a seller, than a buyer that things took off for me.

    I built my list, my sites, my brand, and my reputation, based upon my own sweat equity, not based on thousands of courses and dozens of tools.

    If more people did that, this industry wouldn't have such a high failure rate.

    I now, though, have decided to pop back in, but limit my time to about 15 minutes a day and see what advice I can offer, and what I can pick up.
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  • Profile picture of the author dlzit
    Wonderful! Love it!
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Robert, I agree with everything you said.

    The reason I brought all this up is that we are in a conundrum here. We complain about the discussion quality and all the newbie threads repeated over and over and over, etc. but:
    • If you have a success story you are self promoting or warming up for the upcoming WSO and the snark comes
    • If you have a sig and answer a question or a bunch of questions then you are a sig whore and the snark comes
    • If you share a tip you are self promoting and the snark comes

    So who in the heck can post anything BUT the newbies and spammers? What CAN be discussed on this discussion board?

    I report blatant rule breaking posts when I see them. But I also go by Paul Myer's philosophy of "those that gives gets" (or however he put it) when making my reports. This means that I would be less inclined to report a post of yours - not because you are an old timer or part of a secret club or whatever but because you have a history of honestly trying to help out.

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author Jack Gordon
    One idea that I think would help address several of these problems would be a little active moderation to merge new threads that ask a common question into existing threads that already ask that same question.

    Merging all of the "how do I earn $xx/day" (as one example) threads into one ongoing conversation, etc...

    ... would significantly clean up the forum by eliminating the sheer volume of threads that push other worthwhile content off of page 1

    ... would give more experienced contributors a single place to comment in a way that it would reach the largest AND most targeted audience

    ... and by reducing the number of very similar threads, it would also improve the chance that those experienced contributors will give better quality answers, since there is one large platform rather than dozens of tiny ones

    There is some precedent for this approach. Like this:
    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...desperate.html

    Not a perfect example, and it was not enforced by mods, but I think it should be.

    I would take the top five (to start) most common newbie topics and try this approach. If it has the desired result, expand it.

    A comprehensive solution to all of this forum's issues? No. But it would do a lot of good.

    I know there are those who have been resistant to this idea in the past. I just haven't ever heard a reason that made sense to me.
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  • Profile picture of the author Woodsusa
    It's frustrating to see so many people who think earning money online should be "push button, earn massive amounts of cash."

    I don't earn a whopping amount, mostly because I have family stuff that takes a lot of my focus, but every penny I earn I'm proud of, because I work my ass off for it.

    I get frustrated, because what I know about IM isn't a drop in the bucket, so to speak, but I'm not going to run to people who've been doing this for years, crying that nothing works, and woe is me.

    I think it's a sign of the times...people just can't own their situations. They're always looking for a direction to point that finger, lol!

    Great post...it really gets you thinking about your course, doesn't it?
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