Does Being Negative, Closed Minded And Criticizing IM Sales Tactics Reflect On A Warriors Income?

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Does Being Negative, Closed Minded And Criticizing (Against) Internet Marketing And Sales Tactics Reflect On A Warriors Income?


"I Hate Up Sells And One Time Offers!" "I Just Want To Pay For One Product!"

"I Don't Want To Build A List!" "It Takes Too Long"

"Adding Bonuses To Offers Just Cheapens The Product!" "My Product Will Be Awesome On Its Own"

"He Makes $1000 A Day? Pfff Yeah Right!!" "I've Never Even Heard Of Him"

"Those Gurus And Their Products Are All Scams!" "They Just Want Our Money"!

"ALL WSO's And Products On (Insert Digital Marketplace Here) Are All Garbage!" "I'd Never Shop There"

"I Spent A Whole Week Reading These Threads But Still Not Making Money. I Quit!"


Does any of the above sound familiar?


If so, It's because I actually picked a few of these statements
from similar recent posts and comments made by Warriors
who (I assumed) were here to learn about earning an income online,
or grow their current business.


On the one hand I'm a bit surprised at the negative attitude towards
the very same path that most eventually might be taking,
but on the other hand, I'm understanding of the fact that for most it will take that "first sale"
for them to realize that "making money online" IS possible.


Even quitting that dreaded job and starting a full time business online is not a fantasy,
but in order to do that, one may benefit from adding a bonus to their product, building a list,
setting up an OTO, up selling, including their product into a marketplace.... etc,


but more importantly, I can guarantee that in order to make money, "more money" online a reality,
one will have to do some serious attitude adjusting towards the marketing game as a whole,
as opposed to the negativity, or the (giving up) that I have seen going on in here in the last while.
and start looking at what successful marketers are "doing".


I'm not saying that all tactics used will work, or are one size fits all,
but just bitching about everything, and not "believing" it's all possible, is really futile,
and you might as well shoot yourself in the foot while getting ready to go for a run.


In the end, I would like to see more:
"How can I double my income, this is what I'm currently doing" types of questions,

as opposed to:
"I think all of this is BS" types of post.

I mean, really, if any of the above sounds like you, why are you here then?



SO, Does Being Negative, Closed Minded And Criticizing (Against) IM, Sales Tactics, etc, Reflect On A Warriors Income?

My Answer is YES!



What do you think?
#closedminded #criticizing #income #sales #stoltingmediagroup #tactics
  • Profile picture of the author Tom Addams
    I think it reflects on the industry far more.

    I'm an incredibly positive person - much to the annoyance of some members - but the deplorable state of much of the industry is responsible for the negative mindset among many participants (and would-be participants). Take this for example: "I Hate Up Sells And One Time Offers!" "I Just Want To Pay For One Product!" Quite right. And why on Earth not? If I go into a bookstore and buy the latest Stephen King novel, I wouldn't want the store clerk trying heave Dean Koontz on me. I want a product. I pay for it. Give it to me.

    Now that describes the "many," of course. Other proportions of the demographic? Some people are lazy, not very bright, have no knowledge or experience or conception of earning money in a digital environment. These reasons and several dozen others generate the negative mindset.

    Change is coming to the industry. I can see it clearly. And it's very easy to do so. After having worked online for over two decades, I've picked up a great many skills, but I'm a relative newcomer to the "make money" industry. 2 years I've been here. Roughly. And in those two years, I've felt - pretty much consistently - that I'm surrounded by used car salesmen.

    No wonder people are negative. I would be, too, had I started out in this environment.

    Tom
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    • Profile picture of the author Maxjohan
      Originally Posted by Tom Addams View Post

      I think it reflects on the industry far more.

      I'm an incredibly positive person - much to the annoyance of some members - but the deplorable state of much of the industry is responsible for the negative mindset among many participants (and would-be participants). Take this for example: "I Hate Up Sells And One Time Offers!" "I Just Want To Pay For One Product!" Quite right. And why on Earth not? If I go into a bookstore and buy the latest Stephen King novel, I wouldn't want the store clerk trying heave Dean Koontz on me. I want a product. I pay for it. Give it to me.
      I agree with this. Like that guy Tucker Max said in an interview. No one in mainstream will respect you if you sell a digital product for $30-$40 and then top it off with a cross sell, down sell and all that jazz.

      If you wanna make real money. I believe that selling one product is the key to it. And make it mainstream, instead of direct response marketing, which mostly is what IM is all about. And I've come to that conclusion, after years of studying internet marketing.

      Newbies think the money will just fall from the sky. When they think of Internet... they think of Easy money. That's what attracts people to the Internet marketing field. For the most part.

      Sadly, many people who haven't made much money in IM, just sell people on some bullshit make money "system" instead of selling real products.

      And also newbies selling their "Secrets" to making money online. When they haven't made a cent out of Internet Marketing. More than teaching IM to other people. LOL. :/

      In IM, hype and boasting seems to be the common attributes to getting people to buy from you.

      What to sell instead of the regular OVERPRICED digital products wiht upsells?

      Reasonably priced eBooks, Video Games or Computer Games. Apps that solves problems.

      All those are better in my book. Than selling some 40 dollar "make money system". But it seems to be a endless supply of people who are chasing their dreams, by buying the next Quick Push Button Solution to Millions.

      And I don't blame them. I know I did just that the first few years when I started out.
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    • Originally Posted by Tom Addams View Post

      Take this for example: "I Hate Up Sells And One Time Offers!" "I Just Want To Pay For One Product!" Quite right. And why on Earth not? If I go into a bookstore and buy the latest Stephen King novel, I wouldn't want the store clerk trying heave Dean Koontz on me. I want a product. I pay for it. Give it to me.
      Of course, that makes sense. But if a store clerk makes you feel that way, then he/she obviously is not offering "appropriate" related products that would cause less resistance. And yes, it is the job of a retail store clerk (or online vendor) to increase the dollar per ticket. But not to the point of pissing you off.

      You know, something like:

      "Hey I see you are listening to music on your smart phone. Have you ever listened to an audio book? No? Well this Stephen King novel is a totally awesome and different experience when listened to in audio. Once you hear it narrated combined with the sound effects, I promise you'll be hooked!

      We actually have a special on right now. you can get the audio version at 50% off because you're buying the hard copy book!

      Oh, and let me add you into our exclusive member discount email list, we send out discount coupons with savings from 10% up 30% off, but only to our email subscribers. All I need is your email address."



      See now this doesn't hurt as much does it? Or does it!

      If it does, then this is what I'm referring to when Marketers complain about being "sold" to. It will most likely reflect in their own business approach, (and income) when trying not to be to pushy by offering additional items that their customer might just actually be interested in!
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom Addams
        Originally Posted by stoltingmediagroup View Post

        Of course, that makes sense. But if a store clerk makes you feel that way, then he/she obviously is not offering "appropriate" related products that would cause less resistance. And yes, it is the job of a retail store clerk (or online vendor) to increase the dollar per ticket. But not to the point of pissing you off.

        You know, something like:

        "Hey I see you are listening to music on your smart phone. Have you ever listened to an audio book? No? Well this Stephen King novel is a totally awesome and different experience when listened to in audio. Once you hear it narrated combined with the sound effects, I promise you'll be hooked!

        We actually have a special on right now. you can get the audio version at 50% off because you're buying the hard copy book!

        Oh, and let me add you into our exclusive member discount email list, we send out discount coupons with savings from 10% up 30% off, but only to our email subscribers. All I need is your email address."



        See now this doesn't hurt as much does it? Or does it!

        If it does, then this is what I'm referring to when Marketers complain about being "sold" to. It will most likely reflect in their own business approach, (and income) when trying not to be to pushy by offering additional items that their customer might just actually be interested in!
        You'll notice that I've highlighted two salient points in bold. Come this September, I will have spent 21 years in the almost daily pursuit of understanding the collective mind of one target audience or another. And this is the most important part of the job. If anyone tells you different, here's a suggestion: point at them and giggle.

        Knowing how to rank first place for high-competition keywords? Growing a Facebook page to 500K? Developing a viral app? Content creation in a virtual environment? These, and everything else on my radar, come second to understanding my audience, or striving to do so.

        This is 2015, not 1995.

        People are hip to your tricks. They find them distasteful.

        "The Price is Going up in 10 Minutes!"

        "I Know You Want THIS Product, But If You Buy THIS ONE, TOO, One That You Don't Really Want, You'll Get it for 50% Off!"

        "Thank You for Buying My Product, Now Please Buy THIS PRODUCT In Order to USE IT Properly!"

        Distasteful. People see through the gimmicks. Don't like the gimmicks. Result? You lose trust. Result? You lose potential income.

        It boils down to time.

        Should you up-sell and cross-sell? If you're a clever marketer you should. A marketer out to maximize his traffic. But there are good and bad ways to do it. The good way? Give people what they want and do so without gimmicks or deception. They want a book? Sell the sucker to them. A fair price. A no-gimmick price. If they like the book, give them a way to purchase something else. Give them a way. An honest, straight-forward, lacking in gimmicks means of returning to you as a customer.

        Last thing. Some of us send thousands of sales or "actions" a week to different offers, acting as affiliates. A good affiliate will try to promote good offers; those, I hardly need to point out, that are free of old-fashioned and distasteful sales tactics. The thing is - there are very few good affiliates. And that amounts to millions of people a week encountering the type of tactics you appear to support. That makes for a lot - I repeat, "a lot" - of jaded people.

        My advice? Remember that selling is really another word for solving. Some chap or chapess has a problem? Solve it. Honestly. If they need other problems solving, they'll know who to come to again.

        Tom
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
      Originally Posted by Tom Addams View Post

      Take this for example: "I Hate Up Sells And One Time Offers!" "I Just Want To Pay For One Product!" Quite right. And why on Earth not? If I go into a bookstore and buy the latest Stephen King novel, I wouldn't want the store clerk trying heave Dean Koontz on me. I want a product. I pay for it. Give it to me.
      Tom
      I'm willing to bet if you go into a book store buy a book, when you go to pay right there on the counter will be some copies of the special offer book of the day right under your nose.

      That's an upsell too.

      Upsells and downsells are in every form of selling, from book stores to supermarkets
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom Addams
        Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

        I'm willing to bet if you go into a book store buy a book, when you go to pay right there on the counter will be some copies of the special offer book of the day right under your nose.

        That's an upsell too.

        Upsells and downsells are in every form of selling, from book stores to supermarkets
        You should re-read my posts.

        Originally Posted by Tom Addams

        Should you up-sell and cross-sell? If you're a clever marketer you should. A marketer out to maximize his traffic. But there are good and bad ways to do it.
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  • Profile picture of the author EPoltrack77
    o yeah, if that is your mindset you should just give up now and go back to what 95% of everyone else is doing.

    success whether its IM or whatever it is is 80% mental and only 20% mechanics. If you have a poor outlook your going to have a poor life.
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    • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
      I think a lot of people come here more for the social aspects than the money making aspect. It could be the one place they can vent, snipe and blast out their frustrations with the click of a mouse.

      It must be kinda tough in a way though. Personally, I wouldn't want to be around people, a business or an industry that made me angry, frustrated or negative. Life is too short.

      And yes, being negative, closed minded and criticizing IM sales tactics does reflect on a Warriors income for the most part. Afterall, it's easier to be negative, closed minded and critical if sales are low. The sad thing is those are the very traits that will keep them low.
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      • Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

        It must be kinda tough in a way though. Personally, I wouldn't want to be around people, a business or an industry that made me angry, frustrated or negative. Life is too short.
        This is what baffles the mind. Members that join this (Internet Marketing) forum,
        and end up appearing angry, frustrated and negative about the whole IM business and sales tactics.

        I mean, not being educated on certain topics yet is one thing,
        but I see posts and negative responses on "marketing" topics in this marketing forum, that remind me of some UFO and paranormal forums (my other interests) where someone posts about having seen something out of this world, followed by tons of "non believers" needing to express their scientific based knowledge on how none of it's been proven in a lab, thus the OP and everyone else in that forum are all a bunch of [insert forum troll insults here]. Then why not join a Skeptics Anonymous forum and be much happier?
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        "They Are FANTASTIC!" - Willie Crawford.

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  • Profile picture of the author LGCalab
    Typical opening line coming...
    I'm a new member, but have been lurking this forum for quite some time.

    That being said, I have noticed the negativity that is more pronounced these days than before. I'm not saying it wasn't there before, but I really do see more can't do, than can do.

    It's been stated, many times now, that many of the older, more experienced members have walked away. The few that remain still pop in, give advice, help, critic, and and times, berate, new members. However, I do see that even when they're trying to help, many, many new members lambast them for even commenting. You have a pack of coyotes and a pack of wolves all guarding a hen house!

    When I am considering purchasing something, yes, I do look at a person's posts, threads, and so on. I take what they have to say as a lead in to their merit. I have noticed that even some of the more experienced, long time members are getting angry and it's showing in their posts. There are two members that I wanted to do business with and after watching their posts for a few weeks, never will I give them a dime. One even stated that this forum is no longer a place to make money... you think?

    New members are coming in, in groves! Some, just are out to spam the crap out of this place, link drop, sig expose, you name it. Some, SOME, are really just trying to learn. Days of Yore, the mods could spot it, remove it, move on. Our mods now are still learning. The influx of seasoned members helping spot problem posts and new members abusing the system, has become so obvious.

    So, what can we do to help? Keep screaming to the mods to "do something"? Curb the replies down to a more helpful push instead of bashing them? Wait for the supposed Admins to come in and actually try and shape their new forum? The Admins have all but walked away. I sent a ticket to the help desk over a month ago and still no reply.

    Bottom line, we can, as a group, make this forum what it should be, better than it was, if we all want to. Or, we can watch it smolder until the ashes burn out.

    Just my thoughts for a Friday. Hope everyone here has a great weekend!

    LG
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  • Profile picture of the author Houlian
    I think being negative with anything is a good way to fail.

    My answer is YES
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  • Profile picture of the author LGCalab
    @ Arnold.

    Great post man! I see a ton of new people here that are just frustrated, confused, doing the WRONG things to get ahead. This place used to be a place where you could get steered into the right direction and now it's just too confusing, too frustrating.

    LG
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    • Originally Posted by LGCalab View Post

      @ Arnold.

      Great post man! I see a ton of new people here that are just frustrated, confused, doing the WRONG things to get ahead. This place used to be a place where you could get steered into the right direction and now it's just too confusing, too frustrating. LG
      Thank you for your contribution to the thread. Yes the frustration is apparent.

      As Janice and several others eluded to, people are exposed to
      crappy products and questionable marketers / marketing techniques.

      Those same people, let's say a new warrior member, ends up learning stupid stuff that leans towards pretending be an authority in some niche, (probably from a post by another new member who learned it from someone else) and before you know it, a week later there's a WSO from Mr. New Warrior, selling his knowledge obtained from the threads. This is then purchased by those who trust the vendor, and there you have it... the cycle continues. So yes, I can see the confusion.

      My challenge is with those who have a problem with just about "everything" related to selling and marketing.

      I would understand it if this was an "anti marketing" forum. But In this forum? As I continue to scratch my head...
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      "I LOVE The Song! The Vibe Is Positive And Firm!" - Kymani Marley. (Son of Bob Marley)
      "Keep Up The Good Work!" Tony Lindsay - Lead Vocalist, Carlos Santana.

      "Very High Quality!" Jeremy Harding - Manager / Producer. Sean Paul.
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      • Profile picture of the author nmwf
        Originally Posted by stoltingmediagroup View Post

        My challenge is with those who have a problem with just about "everything" related to selling and marketing. I would get it if this was an "anti marketing" forum. But In this forum? As I continue to scratch my head...
        Perhaps you're taking things too personally. If my criticisms don't apply to you, and if you're an ethical marketer, why are you so concerned about my opinions to the point in which you have to (1) copy and paste three of them in this thread, (2) assume my income is affected [still can't figure that one out!], (3) disregard the other types of information I provide.

        Do you realize that out of the 288-whatever posts I made on this forum, you targeted .01% of them and made some broad, questionable assumptions?

        As far as I'm concerned, you're a strange distraction, and I've got hella coding to do today. So I won't be responding to this thread any longer. But don't feel challenged by me. I'm not a threat assuming you're an ethical salesman. If not, well then that just explains a few things rather succinctly, doesn't it.

        Good luck nonetheless.
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        • Originally Posted by nmwf View Post

          Perhaps you're taking things too personally. If my criticisms don't apply to you, and if you're an ethical marketer, why are you so concerned about my opinions to the point in which you have to (1) copy and paste three of them in this thread, (2) assume my income is affected [still can't figure that one out!], (3) disregard the other types of information I provide.

          Do you realize that out of the 288-whatever posts I made on this forum, you targeted .01% of them and made some broad, questionable assumptions?

          As far as I'm concerned, you're a strange distraction, and I've got hella coding to do today. So I won't be responding to this thread any longer. But don't feel challenged by me. I'm not a threat assuming you're an ethical salesman. If not, well then that just explains a few things rather succinctly, doesn't it.

          Good luck nonetheless.
          Whether you return to this thread or not, I'll address this anyways.

          Try not to flatter yourself. This wasn't all about you and I'm not sure where you get that idea. My examples given were paraphrased from several other posts by others, not cut and paste, and not all inspired by you.

          Unless you propose that you are the "only" negative person in this forum, or the only one who have made similar statements. This thread was definitely not directed at only you per say.

          You were not on my radar, until you dropped in a thread elsewhere, left your comment about not ever having heard of John Reese's million in a day story, or Jeff Walker, and that you "don't believe it at all". (which is ok ofcourse,) but then left, and did not even return when your post was personally addressed by Jeff Walker showing you his publicized article on Forbes.com, and his #1 position on the new york timesbook review list and 775 reviews of his book on Amazon.

          But don't feel challenged by me. I'm not a threat assuming you're an ethical salesman. If not, well then that just explains a few things rather succinctly, doesn't it.
          ?
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          Arnold Stolting - Stolting Media Group
          "I LOVE The Song! The Vibe Is Positive And Firm!" - Kymani Marley. (Son of Bob Marley)
          "Keep Up The Good Work!" Tony Lindsay - Lead Vocalist, Carlos Santana.

          "Very High Quality!" Jeremy Harding - Manager / Producer. Sean Paul.
          "They Are FANTASTIC!" - Willie Crawford.

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        • Profile picture of the author kendmurphy
          I am a newbie to this industry IM just 2 years, and I have read any of these posts on this topic so I am fasinated at the personal level this topic can have on people.
          Having to go about promoting a curtain product that you think you have researched to make sure it isn't crap, and like to think is open and transperant and dedicated to helping people, to have people shoot it down so they can promote their own product is frustrating.
          It seems to me many of the products themselves are not wrong or a bad idea, or poorly produced, rather the it is the way they are presented and marketed by curtain people, not all people, and can be seen as a scam because of no follow up and no support when it cannot be understood by the user.
          People follow people not a product.
          If the person looking for a product looks at what you represent and your track record and what you provide for them. that will influence their decision.
          I would not want to follow a negative and criticizing person who had no interest in me as a purchaser of their product.
          Been there done that move on.
          All good products have bad points that need improving, the question is does the product provider strive to improve their product.
          So Yes I would not follow, purchase, support, negative, criticizing, product promoting person who soul purpose is to just make money.
          Because I am a positive, open minded, solution finding marketer
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    Absolutely. Being closed off means you won't try anything...and IM is trial and error and correction.

    Most of the 'tude is head trash.

    A strong trend I've noticed in my 20 years of real world experience is this:

    owners of companies who are afraid to talk are the ones who could benefit from my help the most.

    The executives at organizations that are doing well...they're happy to talk. Open to ideas. They're not scared or threatened.

    Unfortunate, really, that the people who need the help the most are cutting themselves off from it.

    I spend time doing things like watching another expert's videos just to see how they shot it. Is it a handheld cam? Webcam? On a tripod? How do they move it? Does it remain stationary? Last night I watched and rewatched a Q&A with Gary V video. Even talked with my wife about it.

    Got a couple pointers about making the message more effective just from observation.

    That's what these naysayers ought to be doing.
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    • Profile picture of the author LGCalab
      Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

      Absolutely. Being closed off means you won't try anything...and IM is trial and error and correction.
      That is the magic button everyone is looking for Jason!

      Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

      Unfortunate, really, that the people who need the help the most are cutting themselves off from it.
      Most really don't want to know that there's work, hard work, involved. Most of it being the learning. But, hey, there's an app for that!

      LG
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  • Profile picture of the author TakenAction
    My favorite (most hated) thread/statement is:

    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...d-upsells.html

    Want to eliminate upsells and upgrades?

    Is that a joke?

    The backend is how you make the real money...

    I mean that is just ludicrous .

    I don't even want to get into a rant, it would just piss me off more...
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  • Profile picture of the author salegurus
    Originally Posted by stoltingmediagroup View Post

    SO, Does Being Negative, Closed Minded And Criticizing (Against) IM, Sales Tactics, etc, Reflect On A Warriors Income?

    My Answer is YES!



    What do you think?
    My opinion, that statement is far too general.
    Some see being negative as someone who does not swallow all the BS going on in the industry hook,line and sinker as being negative, i see it as being aware of what's going on around you...

    Maybe im not with you on Criticizing, are you saying that any criticism is negative? Should we just all be "yes men/woman"?

    On closed minded we may agree, that is if you're saying that trying new things, giving something your best shot before giving up, being open to advice etc... is the way to learn and move forward...

    PS. The only way to know with certainty how much anyone on this forum is earning is to see a bank statement...
    Just saying well that group does not earn squat because they come across as X,Y,Z is not proof of income...

    Theo
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  • Profile picture of the author Jack Gordon
    When an entire industry is stereotyped and maligned, it behooves the membership to take a close look at what it is that is causing people to think that way and choose which side of the issue they are going to be on.

    Among the brotherhood of debt collectors, the ones who give the entire industry a black eye when they are caught threatening little old ladies are not considered brother collectors. They are criminals.

    In IM, they tend to be gurus, or at least role models, by the masses who covet a place at the table. Why wouldn't newbies be discouraged when the people they seek to emulate turn out to be entirely unrealistic fantasy facsimiles?

    Is it productive sometimes to be negative? Sure, in the same way it is occasionally productive to smack a teenager upside the head when hormones get in the way of a properly operating brain.

    But most of the time, it is better to recognize that the criminals and hustlers are apparently not going to be kicked out of this industry anytime soon, and try to make a little positive progress every single day - however it is you define progress.

    The sooner new marketers learn to ignore all the pimps and swindlers in the WSO swamp, the sooner they can start really trying to learn something around here.
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  • Profile picture of the author Isaiah Jackson
    I agree with you 10000% percent on this one.

    Had my email list take a survey and found out some very
    interesting results from it.

    Those who had that negative attitude toward things were
    also the ones who didn't make a penny online.

    Why?

    They didn't believe they could, or the felt some kind of
    way about doing things.

    Like no matter what video I shot for them or just gave
    them a quick tip or something, I always got negative
    feedback from a small group of subscribers.

    For example I once shot a video on how to build
    a squeeze page and then gave away a squeeze page
    template for free.

    Response from the small group was the following:

    "F**k OFF, I don't want to build an email list it will take too long"

    "You're just a GURU trying to sell me something"

    and a few others...

    But none the less I agree with you on this one Arnold.

    Love this thread :-)

    Isaiah Jackson.
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  • No - because it wouldnt matter... Becaus those people with the wrong attitude have no business being in business.

    You see, successful people never grow that attitude to begin with. Unsuccessful people, in the other hand, are simply not entrepreneural minded, and they lack what it taked to be an entrepreneur. As a result, their morale or attitude would be irrelevant as they were never cut out for this business to begin with.

    If it hadnt been their attitude, it wouldnt have been something else to sabotage their success.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dilip Mane
    For any individual to succeed in a business, be it offline or online, it is a must to have a positive attitude and open mindedness.

    Warrior's income depends upon two things.

    Warrior is either a product creator / service provider or an affiliate marketer.

    In either case, marketing and sales tactics are necessary to earn revenue regardless of the quality of the product or service you are selling online. Yes, it is an added advantage if the product or service is really of a good quality.

    One must have to learn these skills if he or she lack somewhere or don't have budget to hire professionals for. And while learning, you have to only take what is good for you and neglect everything that is not of use to you.

    If you don't learn, test, and tweak till you see the desired results, you are not going to get success in proper time span. And if you consume your time in criticizing the things instead of learning from those, you are not serious about your business.

    So the answer depends upon how committed the warrior is about earning income online.
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  • Profile picture of the author nmwf
    Originally Posted by stoltingmediagroup View Post

    who (I assumed) were here to learn
    Mistake #1.

    Since you quoted a few of my remarks, take the following to heart:

    Everyone in this business or even on this website is not here to learn a damn thing. I won't speak for anyone else, but I've been at this stuff for over 20 years. There's nothing here that isn't online elsewhere from more trusted sources. But there is a lot of deceit disguised as sales pitches and strategies. For that reason, I call a spade a spade.

    So I don't care who you are or what you're selling. If it's a scam, I'm going to call you out on it, whether your little scam is misleading information or an outright lie. That is how I (hopefully) help others who might fall victim to unsupported WSOs, over-hyped products & services, and increased costs for 0-return investments.

    Oh, I understand those sort of people might be your target market. I understand they may be your bread-and-butter.

    But hell. Honestly? If you've got the FTC on your ass, you know you're doing the wrong things. And by defending those things, you're not here to help or learn. You're here to take advantage of people.

    And that ain't gonna happen if I have anything to do with it.
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    • [quote=nmwf;10075462]
      Everyone in this business or even on this website is not here to learn a damn thing.
      That is very apparent, and is partially the point of this thread.

      I won't speak for anyone else, but I've been at this stuff for over 20 years.
      What kind of stuff have you been at for 20 years?

      There's nothing here that isn't online elsewhere from more trusted sources.
      I agree, and I've made that statement elsewhere in another thread as well.
      No marketer flies out of his mom as a baby with articles, blog posts and eBooks all ready to go. Even information published by published authors or any "trusted source" is usually compiled from even different sources.

      But there is a lot of deceit disguised as sales pitches and strategies. For that reason, I call a spade a spade.
      I agree here too. As long as we can separate the three.
      I think this is where peoples own definitions of "deceit" vs a sales pitch or marketing strategy tends to create some tension.

      You know, nowadays all a marketer has to do is make his headline bold, and there will be someone who will write a blog post complaining about "over hyped sales pages".

      So I don't care who you are or what you're selling. If it's a scam, I'm going to call you out on it, whether your little scam is misleading information or an outright lie. That is how I (hopefully) help others who might fall victim to unsupported WSOs, over-hyped products & services, and increased costs for 0-return investments.
      Nothing wrong with that either,
      however, I will add that some peoples definition of a "scam" is so far removed from the actual definition, to the point of extreme overuse of the word.
      My guess is that 9 out of 10 folks that call a company or product a scam, have no clue about what a scam really means. (personal opinion doesn't always count).
      I'm sure the courts see cases where someone publicly calls a company a scam, but the company sues their ass, and wins due to nothing being found wrong or illegal about their operations.

      If you've got the FTC on your ass, you know you're doing the wrong things.
      I'm sure there are different levels of "FTC on your ass".
      I don't know if anyone went to jail for not having the proper wording on their affiliate disclosure. Maybe for bilking people out of millions of dollars without supplying any service for the money perhaps. I don't condone the latter.

      And by defending those things, you're not here to help or learn. You're here to take advantage of people. And that ain't gonna happen if I have anything to do with it.
      I am glad that one of your motivations is to ensure that people do not get conned, scammed, whatever. Nothing wrong with that either. Being against sales tactics used, also nothing wrong with that. We are all entitled to our feelings about things.

      Just be sure to know who the good guys are, or which internet marketing success stories might be true. Not everything is a lie,

      In the recent 24 million in a day thread about John Reese who pulled the first million dollar day,

      you responded with:

      "Anybody pulling in those numbers within 24 would make the news. So I don't believe it at all. I never heard any of those people in the mainstream media and I'm a straight-up news addict. In most cases, that type of accomplishment is reserved for movie premiers, Hall of Fame rock musicians, and the PS/xBox.

      #notbuyingit"
      Your comment and hashtag would be a great example of "not being aware" that it actually happened and that thousands of people witnessed it. Being un informed, while contributing thoughts about not believing or happy with something, is a common trait of those who Inspired me to start this thread.

      There is nothing wrong with having your own beliefs, but facts are facts.
      Jeff Walker, (The man who actually taught John Reese the strategies for his million dollar a day launch, was kind enough to address you, and actually replied to YOU in detail on that thread. (I'm sure he picked your response for a reason).
      I also added a video with Anthony Robbins talking to John Reese about it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Lurk
        Originally Posted by stoltingmediagroup View Post


        Jeff Walker, (The man who actually taught John Reese the strategies for his million dollar a day launch,
        This is the first time I've heard of this.

        ....that is all.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    I think some negativity is in order and doesn't affect the negative person's income one bit.

    I'm not talking about having an entrepreneurial mindset. Without that and all of it's parts and pieces such as clear thinking, decision making, diligence, overcoming laziness, not procrastinating, focus, etc. most people will fail. I believe that is why most people fail in any kind of business - bad mindset which directly effects how (or if) the work is done.

    What I'm talking about is the "perverted" ways many IMers do their work.

    For example, the comments about upselling from the "real marketers" sounds normal and necessary. The question is often asked, have you ever went to buy a hamburger and the clerk asks "would you like fries with that?" Of course we all have. Upsells are part of smart business. It even happens at bookstores with discount cards or special membership offers or gift wrapping or any number of other related type things.

    But here's the problem. When we go to buy a double cheeseburger, this never happens:

    1. Would you like fries with that?
    2. No? What about upgrading to a Big Mac?
    3. No? Want an apple pie?
    4. No? What about if I take half off the Big Mac and throw in an apple pie?
    5. No? Okay how about you keep the double cheeseburger, I'll cut the price in half, and with the difference give you a Big Mac and an apple pie so you'll only be spending 10 cents more than your regular purchase?
    6. No? Okay we understand. Here's your receipt but before you can eat your hamburger you need to go into the backroom and watch the entirety of one of our new 30 minute commercials and then and only then will you get your hamburger.

    That's where the negativity comes from with the buyers.

    The same types of processes work in email where the envelope is pushed so hard and so much is crammed down the subscribers throat that not only does it feel like a scam but in many cases it is a scam or at least against the law. Think misleading headlines (Mark, I just deposited your commission), putting someone on multiple lists all with separate unsubscribe processes, not honoring unsubscribe requests (just add them to GR if they unsubscribe from Aweber), using fake names or hiding who the email is actually from, etc.

    Yet when someone comes to complain they are a hater, they will always be broke, they didn't do their due diligence, they are uneducated because they asked for the free report (which somehow gives someone permission to email 3 times a day), they will never be an entrepreneur so they need to go back to their day job, etc.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author nmwf
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      But here's the problem. When we go to buy a double cheeseburger, this never happens:

      1. Would you like fries with that?
      2. No? What about upgrading to a Big Mac?
      3. No? Want an apple pie?
      4. No? What about if I take half off the Big Mac and throw in an apple pie?
      5. No? Okay how about you keep the double cheeseburger, I'll cut the price in half, and with the difference give you a Big Mac and an apple pie so you'll only be spending 10 cents more than your regular purchase?
      6. No? Okay we understand. Here's your receipt but before you can eat your hamburger you need to go into the backroom and watch the entirety of one of our new 30 minute commercials and then and only then will you get your hamburger.

      That's where the negativity comes from with the buyers.
      Perfectly expressed. And a great example of IM-bullying. It's also an unfortunate tactic that aggressive salespersons use to prey on the uninformed.

      So sad.
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      For example, the comments about upselling from the "real marketers" sounds normal and necessary. The question is often asked, have you ever went to buy a hamburger and the clerk asks "would you like fries with that?" Of course we all have. Upsells are part of smart business. It even happens at bookstores with discount cards or special membership offers or gift wrapping or any number of other related type things.

      But here's the problem. When we go to buy a double cheeseburger, this never happens:

      1. Would you like fries with that?
      2. No? What about upgrading to a Big Mac?
      3. No? Want an apple pie?
      4. No? What about if I take half off the Big Mac and throw in an apple pie?
      5. No? Okay how about you keep the double cheeseburger, I'll cut the price in half, and with the difference give you a Big Mac and an apple pie so you'll only be spending 10 cents more than your regular purchase?
      6. No? Okay we understand. Here's your receipt but before you can eat your hamburger you need to go into the backroom and watch the entirety of one of our new 30 minute commercials and then and only then will you get your hamburger.

      That's where the negativity comes from with the buyers.

      Mark
      Yes but that's just bad practice and if the complaint on the thread outlined your scenario everyone would agree with them.

      The point in the thread starter was a negativity about marketing in general. we see it everyday in here it gets kinda wearing
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  • Profile picture of the author nmwf
    Good lord, I am lovin' this thread!! I am so thrilled to see these well-written, well-thought out rebuttals and admissions of truth. (I can't even get to sleep!

    I am so bookmarking some fantastic warriors here this wee morning. Glad to see you - glad to meet you!
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  • Profile picture of the author SteveSki
    Absolutely.... You tend to gravitate towards what you focus on.
    Focus on negative crap and soon you'll be up to your neck in it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
    I agree with everything the OP has posted but I will say one thing in defense of the negative posters. The last couple of years they are primarily exposed to LOUSY products and LOUSY marketing. When a very good marketer sells a very good product and offers an upsell you hardly even realize or notice. You are also interested in taking a look at it because it might offer some additional value to you.

    I think many newer people to the forum end up becoming jaded and think ALL marketers are just greedy borderline scammers and in some ways you can't blame them. There are some great products and marketers in JVZ, W+, and WSO's but that is not the norm anymore.

    Upsells, bonuses, time deadlines, and many other marketing techniques work fantastic when done by honest and skilled marketers. They can actually be a win for both the seller and the buyer. If all you are exposed to is poor products that are sold with poorly executed marketing techniques that is what will shape your faulty opinion of the whole industry.
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  • Profile picture of the author agmccall
    It is not so much that people are negative, it is more they are making excuses and placing blame on someone else for their lack of success

    al
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  • Profile picture of the author kilgore
    I guess what some people call "negativity", I call "realism" -- and personally, I find that realism is a lot more helpful to my business than positivity. It might not feel good when I'm told that I'm on the wrong track or that I made a mistake, but it certainly does help me to learn, to adjust, and to make my business better. It's certainly a million times more helpful than endless calls to "take action" or "have the right mindset" or the mindless regurgitations of IM conventional wisdom (which is often flawed IMO).

    Moreover, some of the most helpful posts I've ever read could easily be classified as "negative". Here are just a few:

    "Re: Why do most people fail online?"

    Originally Posted by Jack Gordon View Post

    All of these reasons are flawed.

    1. Faith and belief sound nice, but are irrelevant. I could believe I'll sell a million Flying Spaghetti Monster bumper stickers with all the faith I can muster, but without the right tools, preparation and research I'll fail.

    2) Investment in education is deceptive. You don't need to invest anything but your focus. The information is flying all around us. Learning it is free. Isolating the quality information is challenging, and applying it is something else entirely. Newbies cannot be expected to understand this intuitively.

    3) Choosing a niche is nice, but it is an advanced concept. The abuse of this concept is what leads so many people down the road to oblivion. When you are new to business you don't need niche research. You need to identify problems you can solve for other human beings, and sell them those solutions. Finding a niche you know nothing about exacerbates the problem of too many crappy web businesses selling crappy products out there.

    4) Giving up early can be a good thing. When something isn't working, you need to identify it, analyze what went wrong, and if necessary, cut your losses. Knowing when to fold it up is a learned skill, and newbies are not going to have the experience or judgment to recognize when it is the best solution.

    I don't mean to be a downer, but it is generic, vague rah rah posts like this that make so many people think they can do this when they are ill equipped to run a business - any kind of business. The people going up in flames all around us every day are a testament to that.

    Let me put it another way... anyone can read this post, check off all the boxes, put a sincere effort into it following every happy thought, and still most will fail.

    Want to know why so many people fail online? Because they are led to believe there is a vast market for mediocrity out there, and they feel they can serve that market without any of the tools a real business owner with skin in the game would be forced to utilize.
    "Re: Internet Marketer's: Everyone Says Stick with the Fundamentals ... So, What are They?"

    Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

    you know, i actually think this thread illustrates exactly why its so hard for most people to actually create a profitable and sustainable business online or offline for that matter.

    the truth is there are a lot of "fundamentals". you dont have to do every single one of them perfectly, but you cant get too many of the wrong or your business just wont work.

    there are a lot of moving parts to a successful business and you gotta get them all working together in just the right way to make it work. and just when you do, someone will through a wrench in your plan with a panda bear from google or just good old fashioned competition.

    i personally think most people should be required to read a couple of offline business books before they ever head online to try to start one of these instant millionaire businesses.

    most of the fundamentals of successful businesses have been discussed in much greater detail in offline publications than they are by the "gurus" of internet marketing.

    very few business fundamentals change when you add the word "online".
    "Re: write a blog post in minimum time"

    Originally Posted by Jennifer Hutson View Post

    Why are you concerned about the writing time? One high-quality article a week is better than 10 half-assed articles a week.

    You need to focus on providing value to your readers, not how to slap together as many quick posts as you possibly can. That will never build you a long-term audience.
    "Re: Is it really possible?"

    Originally Posted by Steve B View Post

    Ian,

    If all it took to make money online was long hours spent, many more folks would be successful at this game. Washing machines work very hard ... but they go nowhere.

    What you're failing to see is that you have to work smart. You have to do the right things, in the right way, at the right time. Chasing money is not the answer. Putting in long hours is not the right answer.

    Do market research to identify buying demand. When you know and understand where the demand lies, then figure out how to satisfy that demand with your own paid product or service (or as an affiliate to some elses product or service).

    Step in front of the demand and present your offer. Build a list of potential prospects and customers. Focus on helping them get what they want without you stressing about what you'll get in return. It' how business online is done.

    Take care of your audience and see that you continually help them. They will reward you well for what you give them.

    Steve
    "Re: Why do most people fail online?"

    Originally Posted by Brent Stangel View Post

    Also no business knowledge or experience.

    Ask yourself, "If the Internet didn't exist, would I be trying to 'start a business'?"
    "Re: Great idea, cant afford coder"

    Originally Posted by kilgore View Post

    I think people have a tendency to get over-excited about ideas. Unfortunately, good ideas -- even great ideas -- aren't really worth all that much in business. It's the implementation that counts.

    The problem I see here is that it's not really clear what you're bringing to the table besides the idea. Hiring a team of coders would be an option, except you're not bringing any money to the table.

    And while finding a technical partner sounds good on paper, I think you're going to have a lot of trouble attracting anyone of any talent unless you can demonstrate that just as you need something from them (their coding ability), you have something they need too (e.g., prior track record of success, marketing ability, unique access to potential buyers, etc.). Otherwise the relationship sounds like, "You come up with the idea, your programmer does all the work., you split the profits." But if I'm a good programmer (and in fact I really am I good programmer -- my background is in web development), that arrangement isn't going to seem very fair. Unless you'd be willing to take something take a split where I got 99% and you got 1% -- which is all an idea is really worth.

    So I guess my take is that you need to do some soul searching. Is this an idea that you can actually contribute to in a meaningful way (either with work or money) or is this just an idea you have where you'll mostly be a spectator? If the former, finding a partner might work for you, but if the latter, you might want to move to an idea that you actually have a chance to help make happen.
    (And yes, I did just quote myself )
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  • Originally Posted by Lurk View Post

    This is the first time I've heard of this.

    ....that is all.

    That's understandable if it's the first time hearing this.

    But at this point a person has several options when hearing something like that.


    1. Be skeptical, don't make an effort to learn the facts, post negative non believing comments, and continue running the business as usual.

    OR,

    1. Do your own research, maybe participate in discussions, learn about it,
    and if your goal was to ever do a "launch", then possibly follow this persons blog,
    or buy a book, etc, and see if the strategies might fit in with your plans.

    Either way, the horses mouth follows:

    Originally Posted by Jeff Walker View Post

    So I've actually done this - multiple times.

    I'll try to answer this without seeming like too big of a braggert...

    The fact is, the best I ever did was a million dollars in sales in 53 minutes.

    And I've done something like 13 consecutive launches of a million dollars or more (many of

    them multi-million dollars) - all of them in five days or less.

    In addition, I basically invented the process - it's called the Product Launch Formula.

    John Reese was the first person to do a million in sales in less than 24 hours - and John

    publicly thanked me for teaching him the process.
    I also helped Frank Kern, and most of the

    other folks who have done this.

    Source:

    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...l#post10069749
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    • Profile picture of the author Lurk
      Originally Posted by stoltingmediagroup View Post

      That's understandable if it's the first time hearing this.

      But at this point a person has several options when hearing something like that.


      1. Be skeptical, don't make an effort to learn the facts, post negative non believing comments, and continue running the business as usual.

      OR,

      1. Do your own research, maybe participate in discussions, learn about it,
      and if your goal was to ever do a "launch", then possibly follow this persons blog,
      or buy a book, etc, and see if the strategies might fit in with your plans.

      Either way, the horses mouth follows:




      Source:

      http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...l#post10069749
      cool beans, Ordered his book a week ago
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  • Well, if anyone promoting an affiliate program wants you to pay something before joining, a regular fee while being a member, or pay for some special publication or whatever, then I'd say there is nothing negative, closed-minded or unduly critical about declaring it to be something one should run from like the plague. If it's not free to join and free to remain in, don't look back.
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  • Profile picture of the author kk075
    Originally Posted by stoltingmediagroup View Post


    Even quitting that dreaded job and starting a full time business online is not a fantasy,
    but in order to do that, one may benefit from adding a bonus to their product, building a list, setting up an OTO, up selling, including their product into a marketplace.... etc,

    What do you think?
    But that's where you are wrong, and honestly saying everyone HAS TO do these things is a big reason why people struggle to learn Internet Marketing. What you are talking about falls into the "make money online" niche where its'a all about big headlines, fast sales and weak promises.

    However, if we look at the top 30 most profitable websites in the world today-

    1 Google
    2 Amazon
    3 Yahoo
    4 eBay
    5 MSN/Live
    6 PayPal
    7 iTunes
    8 Reuters
    9 Priceline
    10 Expedia
    11 NetFlix
    12 Travelocity
    13 Zappos
    14 Hotels.com
    15 AOL
    16 Orbitz
    17 Overstock
    18 MySpace
    19 Skype
    20 Sohu
    21 Buy.com
    22 StubHub
    23 Alibaba
    24 Facebook
    25 YouTube
    26 Blue Nile
    27 Tripadvisor
    28 Getty Images
    29 Bidz
    30 NYTimes

    Where are the one time offers? Where are the upsells? Where is the hardcore sales pitches and all of those things you say HAVE TO be there for someone to succeed? Legitimate businesses do not need those types of tactics to become successful because people believe in these brands- which is so much better than even the best upsell around.

    A real business gets repeat traffic through solid customer service, great products, competitive pricing and having a great staff in place. So when you topple Google's 21 billion in annual sales...or even the NY Times meager $175 million, then you can tell us how the "negativity" by the world's most popular brands is holding them back. Until then though, you'll have to forgive those of us who try to build legitimate brands and take care of our customers.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
      Almost every one of them have lists and many send out promotional type emails with coupons, discounts, limited time offers, etc. Some of them email daily or more often.

      Many have upsells or cross sell type deals. For example, Amazon with their "thought you might like this book since you bought this other book along the same topic."

      Many of them use testimonials to sell their products.

      While I agree that some in this forum and MMO types take their marketing to an extreme (see my post above) I don't agree that no one else uses them.

      Even with the greatest products, greatest customer service, or greatest pricing/value if no one knows who you are then you will never make it online or elsewhere. You get known through marketing: advertising, discounts, positioning, PR, SEO, email, word of mouth, affiliates, etc.

      Mark

      Originally Posted by kk075 View Post

      But that's where you are wrong, and honestly saying everyone HAS TO do these things is a big reason why people struggle to learn Internet Marketing. What you are talking about falls into the "make money online" niche where its'a all about big headlines, fast sales and weak promises.

      However, if we look at the top 30 most profitable websites in the world today-

      1 Google
      2 Amazon
      3 Yahoo
      4 eBay
      5 MSN/Live
      6 PayPal
      7 iTunes
      8 Reuters
      9 Priceline
      10 Expedia
      11 NetFlix
      12 Travelocity
      13 Zappos
      14 Hotels.com
      15 AOL
      16 Orbitz
      17 Overstock
      18 MySpace
      19 Skype
      20 Sohu
      21 Buy.com
      22 StubHub
      23 Alibaba
      24 Facebook
      25 YouTube
      26 Blue Nile
      27 Tripadvisor
      28 Getty Images
      29 Bidz
      30 NYTimes

      Where are the one time offers? Where are the upsells? Where is the hardcore sales pitches and all of those things you say HAVE TO be there for someone to succeed? Legitimate businesses do not need those types of tactics to become successful because people believe in these brands- which is so much better than even the best upsell around.

      A real business gets repeat traffic through solid customer service, great products, competitive pricing and having a great staff in place. So when you topple Google's 21 billion in annual sales...or even the NY Times meager $175 million, then you can tell us how the "negativity" by the world's most popular brands is holding them back. Until then though, you'll have to forgive those of us who try to build legitimate brands and take care of our customers.
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      • Profile picture of the author kk075
        Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

        While I agree that some in this forum and MMO types take their marketing to an extreme (see my post above) I don't agree that no one else uses them.

        Mark
        You're 100% right....the major retailers definitely use these tactics. Heck, they invented most of them. But like you said, they don't go to extremes because they'd never do anything to put their lists in jeopardy.

        And that's what people need to realize here....97% or more of that high pressure stuff goes straight to spam folders. Just like that- poof, your reader base is gone and never coming back, all because you sold them a soft offer and then spammed the crap out of them because some guru told you that's how you sell something. But those types of tactics only guarantee that you have to constantly come out with more offers, build more lists and keep doing the basics over and over again....all because you do not respect the people you're trying to sell to.

        That's the biggest lie told here on the forum and it's why we keep seeing the same questions asked over and over again. As a community, we are setting new people up to fail whether they build a great list or not, because we tell them to do the exact opposite of how over 99% of the Internet's wealth is really earned.

        And I'm sorry, but that sucks.
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    • Originally Posted by kk075 View Post

      But that's where you are wrong, and honestly saying everyone HAS TO do these things is a big reason why people struggle to learn Internet Marketing.
      Where is the hardcore sales pitches and all of those things you say HAVE TO be there for someone to succeed?
      Just to clear that up, I never made those statements. Those are your words.

      I said:

      "one may benefit from adding a bonus to their product, building a list, setting up an OTO, up selling, including their product into a marketplace.... etc,"
      There's a difference you see.

      And of course people have the right to argue that adding a bonus, or up selling, etc, won't benefit them, but that's obviously their prerogative, and my main point on that topic with this thread would be that in a race between two marketers selling the same product, I "assume" that the marketer offering an OTO, Up sell, etc...
      might earn more.

      I certainly don't believe there's a general "has to" rule to anything, and yes I'm sure there are companies out there that present less obvious tactics, but rest assured your top 30 list could easily be dissected and one may find all kinds of similar tactics being used, of which Mark above pointed out an example.

      when you topple Google's 21 billion in annual sales...or even the NY Times meager $175 million, then you can tell us how the "negativity" by the world's most popular brands is holding them back.
      I never said that either.

      My reference to negativity is referring to people who look at your top 30 list, and say:

      "Pfff I could never do that, I can't even earn 10 dollars a week online! Oh by the way, today some marketer tried to con me into buying something by telling me the price is going up, and that the bonus is going away. What a Scammer! But anyways, can someone show me how to do Internet marketing?
      I'm not making any money and I don't know why!"
      Note: (The above example is purely fictional. Any resemblance to real persons, living and broke, is purely coincidental.)
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      • Profile picture of the author kk075
        Originally Posted by stoltingmediagroup View Post

        My reference to negativity is referring to people who look at your top 30 list, and say:
        I think that's where you're misunderstanding the whole conversation- you're the one showing negativity towards people who do not embrace the "MMO" concept of lightning-fast, high pressure sales. Because while those tactics do work to some extent, I just listed thirty companies who market on the other end of the spectrum using the exact same tactics.

        For example, Amazon sends out emails saying, "Based on your searches, we thought you'd like....." That's an upsell, but it's one that's done with no pressure or pretense that the buyer has to act now or lose out forever. Amazon and most of the top 30 companies also work their mailing lists hard as well, but they do it in a completely different way from what you're suggesting.

        And if you came here to debate, then that would be one thing- but that's not what you did. Instead, you said anyone not agreeing with your philosophies are, "Negative, Closed Minded And Criticizing" in the title and again in the text. But there's a reason why the top thousand or so online retailers in the world disagree with you- it doesn't take high-pressure sales tactics to sell something that people already want.

        In a nutshell, that's the bigger lesson here. If you focus solely on sales, then you'll be selling your whole life. If you focus solely on making customers happy, then you'll never have to sell a single thing. That's the message that people struggling in IM have to learn to be successful...and it's proven over and over again by customer-focused online retailers like NewEgg, Zappos and Threadless. Because these relatively small companies sell more online that the entire "make money online" industry combined...and they're not working nearly as hard to do it either. They just focus on quality an a great customer experience.
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
      Originally Posted by kk075 View Post

      However, if we look at the top 30 most profitable websites in the world today-

      1 Google
      2 Amazon

      .
      Your kidding right, I never looked at the list past number 2 but if you look on amazon the site is covered in upsells, every time you purchase something there is a nice little shove towards listing what other people who have purchased this product went on to buy
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  • Profile picture of the author icoachu
    That kk guy does have a point

    Focus on building ACTUAL SITES

    Pack VALUE into what you've built

    Work it from there.

    He's right in what he's implying... too many marketers focus too much on the marketing and not enough on the SUBSTANCE.

    Substance builds relationships.

    Substance withstands the test of time and doesn't shake in the boots at the prospect of yet another Google algo update.
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  • Profile picture of the author heavysm
    Originally Posted by stoltingmediagroup View Post

    On the one hand I'm a bit surprised at the negative attitude towards
    the very same path that most eventually might be taking,
    but on the other hand, I'm understanding of the fact that for most it will take that "first sale"
    for them to realize that "making money online" IS possible.


    Even quitting that dreaded job and starting a full time business online is not a fantasy,
    but in order to do that, one may benefit from adding a bonus to their product, building a list,
    setting up an OTO, up selling, including their product into a marketplace.... etc,


    but more importantly, I can guarantee that in order to make money, "more money" online a reality,
    one will have to do some serious attitude adjusting towards the marketing game as a whole,
    as opposed to the negativity, or the (giving up) that I have seen going on in here in the last while.
    and start looking at what successful marketers are "doing".


    I'm not saying that all tactics used will work, or are one size fits all,
    but just bitching about everything, and not "believing" it's all possible, is really futile,
    and you might as well shoot yourself in the foot while getting ready to go for a run.


    In the end, I would like to see more:
    "How can I double my income, this is what I'm currently doing" types of questions,

    as opposed to:
    "I think all of this is BS" types of post.

    I mean, really, if any of the above sounds like you, why are you here then?



    SO, Does Being Negative, Closed Minded And Criticizing (Against) IM, Sales Tactics, etc, Reflect On A Warriors Income?

    My Answer is YES!



    What do you think?
    One thing I've noticed is that a lot of people just aren't cut out to run their own business.

    They'd like to think they are, but when it comes to practicing marketing practices that actually work, they shy away.

    The IM/MMO industries might have conflated the whole thing so that people have become jaded and cynical of product quality. Why would anyone release a product containing their secrets when they can make more money doing the method they teach instead?

    That type of question needs to be eradicated in some instances. Just because someone wants to suddenly become a teacher doesn't mean that their methods or tactics are questionable. In some cases they are, but we need to be very careful about generalizing here.

    To be successful online you need to be a marketer. You need to practice digging into your ideal customers mind and you need them to see that you have the solutions to their problems. That's what marketing is.

    So when we start complaining about various practices that some marketers might be abusing, we need to be specific with our outrage.

    If a marketer has messed up, take note, but move on. That's what i say, anyway. And that's only really addressing those marketers who are obviously misusing legit marketing tactics to sell less than would be expected products.

    But to find fault in the marketing tactics themselves...it just feels silly to me.

    They're obviously shown to work, which is why people use them.

    Generally speaking, to be a successful online businessmen you need to be open minded and thick skinned.

    To be close minded and criticizing of sound marketing tactics....that's just the opposite of what success entails.

    If that last sentence describes anyone, how can that NOT reflect on their low to non-existent online incomes? Lol
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  • Profile picture of the author 6figure101
    Great thread.

    I have to admit, when I first started in IM, I thought I had the right attitude and mindset, and luckily my girlfriend is one of the most smart and positive (not to mention way better looking than me ) helped me change my attitude. Which later lead to becoming obsessed with reading and studying personal development.

    And without a doubt, my online business did not take off until I had a completely better and more positive mindset and approach to life and business.

    The law of attraction is 100% in effect, every day, all day. And that is why I keep away from negative people.

    Remember everyone, we are the average of the 5 people we spend the most time with!
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Keith, I agree that many are led astray.

    There are too many "dead" hopes and dreams that litter this place where people have given up --ironically after coming here because they believed the hype in an offer.

    Too many people haven't reached their goals or dreams and if they question things they are called haters or ridiculed.

    Too many people are getting deluded with things that will hurt them such as when we have a thread about whether to burn and churn your email list or build a relationship. The burn and churn almost always wins because there are some making big bucks doing that (even though they, as you say, keep having to replenish the unsubscribes that happen more frequently I would guess on that type of list).

    But having said that, we've got to be strong about the fact that things have to be marketed. I don't think there is anything wrong with up sells, cross sells, OTOs, deadlines, good calls to action, strong copywriting (including strong headlines and use of color), etc. as long as it's done ethically (and some of our gauges of ethics is much different than many here).

    In addition, I think that many of those top 30 companies could do much better with their marketing (coming from a guy that still is a little ways away from the 21 mil a year ) by having stronger calls to action (asking for the sale), stronger copy, and some more aggressiveness in their marketing.

    For example, in local marketing we see people that do the nice customer service, adding value approach whether it's an insurance agency, a chiropractor, or hardware store. They run nice YP ads and have a nice little website. And they are going broke because they aren't stronger in their marketing. They don't keep in touch. They don't give people a reason to buy. They don't differentiate. They don't ask for the sale. Their copy is boring and doesn't get anyone's attention. All because they don't know how or some feel it's too scammy.

    Likewise we have people here with high ethics and morals that can't feed their kids partly because they are afraid to market. They have a "build it and they will come" approach.

    I believe that many of the tactics used here, as I said earlier here and on many other occasions, do deserve negativity because of the way they are applied by some here. And I do my part to point it out at the right times. But we need to be careful about the fact we are against the implementation not the tactic or strategy itself.

    I think there are a couple different kinds of people that come here:

    1. People that will believe anything and question nothing. Many of them fail and some succeed.

    2. People that believe in strong marketing but question the way things are implemented by many here. Many more of them succeed, I would think, because they are going to do the strong marketing but do it in a way that resonates with them and their potential customers.

    3. People that think everything here is a scam, everyone is a scammer (even those not selling in the MMO field), and they are negative trolls that are here just to cause trouble. They are too negative to see any good in anything here. They need to leave and do their trolling somewhere else.

    There is a balance to be found here. I think there is much good here (as well as a lot of bad) but the good is why I keep coming back and try to help out when I can. I don't believe in doing something just because it works for someone else - no matter the tactic. Robbing people at gunpoint works almost 100% of the time at least temporarily. I make my own decisions. I ignore much of what is said here but I have learned enough to help my own businesses to succeed.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author kk075
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      There is a balance to be found here. I think there is much good here (as well as a lot of bad) but the good is why I keep coming back and try to help out when I can. I don't believe in doing something just because it works for someone else - no matter the tactic. Robbing people at gunpoint works almost 100% of the time at least temporarily. I make my own decisions. I ignore much of what is said here but I have learned enough to help my own businesses to succeed.

      Mark
      I am not disagreeing with you, but I think we are now talking more about perception than marketing. Of course the big sites could do more with their massive subscription bases, just like a lot of folks here can do better with respecting their customers- there's nothing to debate there at all- you're 100% right. But we're not here answering questions for Amazon and eBay executives either that are trying to figure out how to churn out an extra billion in the 2nd quarter either.

      For example, someone PMed me earlier in the week and said, "Could you take a look at my site and tell me what you think it needs to convert better? I followed <abc's> course exactly but I'm not seeing any sales."

      So I look at this site and its a long-form squeeze page that everyone here is familiar with- it's selling the exact same service that this person just bought. And while the copy was decent, there were 27 other ads on the page for affiliate marketing products (yes, 27!) and this big countdown timer about every 3rd paragraph. The entire message was, "Buy within the next 12 hours or lose your chance to be wealthy forever."

      And if you look at the average IM site that people talk about here, they're told to build a squeeze page, buy traffic, get the opt in, work the list hard and repeat. The guy above spent $1,100 in paid ads and had one $79 sale, plus about a dozen opt-ins with a zero percent conversion rate on them. And he's asking me, "How do I tweak this to become a millionaire?"

      Just remember, these are the people we're giving advice to every day- and most of them can't even support themselves much less afford to lose a thousand bucks on their first few weeks out.

      Now, is he in that situation because he was negative and closed-minded? No....just the opposite. He was too positive and open-minded if anything, because he bought into the get rich quick lies and laid everything on the line without the experience to convert. And I'm guessing that within the next few weeks, that person will never think about IM again....except when he pays his credit card bills each month to cover all the money he lost.

      So yeah, you're 100% right that there is big money to be made with high-pressure, low moral sales pitches and autoresponders....but you have to have an actual customer base that believes in you first and you have to have the skills to pull that sort of campaign off. If you don't have those things, then building a reputation the old fashioned way is the only path worth considering. And if more newbies would stop and consider that IM is not some magic money tree that produces billions for anyone, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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  • Profile picture of the author BradGB
    'Alo!

    Long time lurker, first time poster it seems...

    I surveyed my list not too long ago, and almost to the person, the ones who raged the hardest were the ones who were broke, but weren't willing to do anything to help themselves to get out of it. They wanted everything absolutely done for them, and they didn't want to spend a penny until they were already rich. I can't think of anyone being successful in any venture (online, offline, whatever) with that attitude.
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      You know sometimes I get a little frustrated with all the so called Haters. But many of the "so called Haters" ( they are really not) are people like Kay King, Sales Gurus, kilgore and they really provide good, honest, realistic commentary.

      I think their efforts are very worthwhile and keep things in check here. A really good balance and they should be lauded

      Iam one to be positive but we do have to keep things real around here
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      • If anyone wants to give me their opinion on let's say a post like this:

        http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...isnt-liar.html

        Ok, it's not blasting a specific person, so it may not be against the rules.

        It's one of those: "I bought a course, they said it would be simple, but it's not for me, and therefore...."

        Read the OP, and his response after people try to help.

        It just seems tiring to me.
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  • Profile picture of the author phucpn
    My opinion, if you still believe you will succeed. Of course in business, some people will be fail some people will be victory it depend on the right methods and pay attention during running a business. Good luck for anyone choose MMO way. Keep going you will be got a good result.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    In the thread about anybody that isn't a liar, I see a couple things.

    First of all, the tone was set by talk of scumbags and the implication that everybody here will rip him or her off and steal from him or her.

    Maybe the immediate accusation of laziness wasn't called for but neither was the negativity from the OP. He set the tone - not the second post.

    Second, I found the example of the PLR package not including a PDF file and they just couldn't understand why not. How is it possible that he can only open the files in Open Office? This, to me, showed that there probably was laziness or ignorance (that wasn't overcome before the purchase) involved. No one was ripped off or scammed - he just didn't understand in that example and yes I know this wasn't the example he was talking about in his OP but it shows a potential pattern.

    I don't understand CPA, PPD, PPL type things very well. I would never buy a WSO about those things without spending some time getting familiar with how it all works first. I think this is part of due diligence and at least in the case of the PLR he didn't do due diligence.

    I found a thread about solo ads (not sure if it was the one he was talking about though) where he asked if it was step-by-step for newbies. The seller assured him it was. A couple posts down, though, another poster said it was NOT step-by-step.

    If in fact it was not, after being promised it was by the vendor, he has an argument for a refund but NOT a claim of being scammed unless the refund was refused. In this case, the owner assures him that he is only an email away and implies he will help if there are any questions. Did he try to get help from the owner or give up completely because he felt stolen from.

    There are two sides to every story. There has to be balance and fairness in our judgment as to which side is right or wrong. Unfortunately, due to rule #1 and due to the poster not posting anything in the WSO thread (assuming it was a WSO) which would be easily trackable, it's hard to judge because we don't know what the offending offer is. So we judge based on how the complaint is voiced, rightly or wrongly.

    Then when he went on to call Jennifer a "vile creature" and told her to get off his thread further escalated the problem. All in all no one wins. The poster feels beat up on and stolen from and still can't work a solo ad. The forum has another nasty thread it had to clean up and lock. Bystanders wonder if everyone here really is a lying scumbag and/or why everyone attacks the poor newbie.

    Mark
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