Who the heck reads those long winded landing pages?

Are you talking about opt-in pages, or sales letters?

I like Eben Pagan's view on long sales letters. When someone asks him if anyone really reads his 15 page newsletters, or his 30 page sales letters, he always says, "No, just the buyers."

A 2 or 3% conversion rate is great for a sales page, so you know that 97 people out of every hundred will never buy. The long copy is what "sells" the 3% who might buy.

As for opt-in pages, I've had some one-page ones that convert great, and I've had some of several pages that convert great. Testing is the only way to know!

A couple of observations for you...

> The only people who actually read the entire page (aside from the owner and the proofreader) are the absolute hottest prospects, the ones who want to know everything.

Otherwise, people tend to skim, looking for the parts they are interested in. Since that may be different for each person, copywriters often put everything in knowing that 80% of visitors will likely only read 20% of the copy. They just don't know which 20% will trigger that individual.

> Properly constructed and well executed "long" pages don't seem long. Boring pages seem longer, even if they're only a couple of screens. The same can be applied to videos, audios, webinars or live appearances.

One presenter may hold the audience spellbound, while the next renders them comatose. Some of the longest days I've ever spent were 60-minute presentations by engineers at a conference...

I was talking about the sales letters. I don't know - I just cannot seem to comprehend that buyers would actually read it all the way through.

I've noticed that a short copy, directly marking the discount works for me (but that is in the traditional shrink-wrapped software like Quicken, and the likes). For other products like Ebooks, etc. don't know if such long letters is what the buyer is actually looking for!

@WordPro - thank you for your explanation. I'm a noob when it comes to IM. I've had limited success with an online store, and blogs, but this (sales letters) are proving, for my case a little bit difficult to digest. I guess I'll come around it eventually.

The question that keep bouncing in my head is logically distorted. If long sales letters are useless and no one reads them, then how come everyone has it - especially the top marketers.

I'm an engineer by profession/education, so admittedly, copy, especially copy related to marketing doesn't gel well in my case, something which I am trying to adapt to and accept - else I think I would be wasting my time trying to be an IM.

I read them all the way through. The only reason I do is to try & find the problems with what they are saying. I want to get the facts & be able to figure out if what they are saying makes sense. So, I have fun dissecting line by line. I think more & more people are going to start doing that as well.
For example, if there's a testimonial, i go & research that person doing a testimonial.
Do you know that there is a very high percentage of people putting testmonials out saying that they support the product when in reality they don't even use the product themselves. Another example is how the sales pages have claims of $XXx,XXX, in Y amount of days. But when you go to ask questions, no support, no details, nothing.
So, in the consulting world, it's due diligence. It's time to have people back up their claims. In a nutshell it's False Advertising and false claims when someone says a product can do something when there is no proof of it.

I'm with you babushka99, I can't comprehend ever reading one of those sales letters. Occasionally I'll skim them but normally when I see one I just think "they're desperate to hock something to me" and leave the page.

Just the other day I saw this product, I don't remember exactly, I think it was a software to do RSS feed submission (but don't hold me to it - am a little foggy on the details).

Great product or so I thought. In the traditional sense, the seller should just have put up a short copy page, with perhaps tabs for features, system requirements, testimonials, etc. and voila!

The long page just put me off. Even though it was well written, sure there was even some poetry in the whole sales pitch, but too much information to process.

My route (needless to say, I have zero experience in this), would have been short copy, multiple tabs, MSRP, discount and your Buy-it-Now price! That would have done it.

I say this with a lot of caution and no disrespect, but there is something about a long sales letter that sometimes just don't smell right!

If I were to give an analogous example (yes, I am afraid, I'm digressing), its like who is really making money via IM? (again, I stress this is strictly IMHO), the way I see it - its the people who are telling/selling the IM-wannabees - who are making the money, the real-money. The IM-wannabees are the ones snapping up all the ebooks, programs, softwares, tips & tricks, memberships, etc. .... are they making money? (No need to answer that, sure they are).

Anyways, I guess it is just a comfort zone I will have to settle in - perhaps my way of doing things (i.e. the short-copy) may not yield any sales at all, and the long-winded landing page is what I would end up doing and promoting.

People who test say that the long sales letters convert. I opted for a medium sales letter on one of my products and it converts. Would it convert better if it were longer ... I don't know.

Here's how I read sales letters. First, 99% of them don't have any interest for me and I don't read them at all.

The ones I do read is a product I have been searching for. I immediately scroll to the price. If it's more than what I was willing to pay, I leave. If it's in my price range, I scroll back to the top and start skimming. I never read an entire sales page, even if I am interested in the product and due to bandwidth constraints of Hughes.net satellite broadband, I never watch a video, so if you try to sell me via video, you're missing the boat.

I have left sales pages of products that I might be interested in because they were too short and did not provide enough info.

Babushka99,

Statistically you're absolutely right. People won't read a long sales letter. Period.

But that one little word "statistically" hides another (and more profitable) truth. A small but very significant percentage of visitors do read that same letter and end up spending money because of it.

A sales letter is constructed to filter out the non-interested non-prospect. It begins right in the first line - the headline - and it's there to chase away the 95% or 98% who have zero interest in the product or service. You're not trying to sell everybody. Not ever.

The headline targets ONLY the person who is actively interested in a <supply product type here>.

Examples:
* Attention Asthma Sufferers... (if you're breathing normally, get outta here)
* How to Grow a Rich, Green Lawn.... (if you live in an apartment go away)
* Save 40% on Big-Size Clothes... (if you're slim or tiny, go to Walmarts)
* Tired of Being "The Sister with Personality"? (if you're the "pretty one" drop dead)
* Now - Start Conversations with Anybody... (are you glib? you'll never understand)

See what I mean? Each of these is a filter. Marketers call this qualifying the visitor. Then the rest of the sales letter supplies information to the 2 or 3 percent of readers who make it through that filter.

Also, I really like your idea of tabs. That's almost the standard on software and other technical sales sites. But just because we don't see tabs on a long sales letter doesn't mean they're not there.

The fact is, those sub-heads you see running down through sales letters - those are the tabs. They're distributed in series rather than in parallel, but they serve exactly the same function. So the long form letter may not be so very different from the short form letter that you're accustomed to.

True, learning to do things (and think) like a marketer rather than a customer is a skill that takes time to acquire. And as with building any skill, there are times that the new mindset and understandings will clash with the ones you already have.

This also is a kind of filter. Only those who are willing to get through the "clash" periods will master the new skills and become effective marketers. This is true in learning any complex set of skills and behaviors. The importance of the thinking component in mastering a new skill is seriously under-appreciated. But it's important.

Ask any sports coach which is more important, physical talent or attitude. They'll tell you that winning is 90% attitude. Ask any sales trainer, any business coach, any teacher or trainer in any field. You'll get almost unanimous agreement. It's mostly in the head.

So your question is an excellent sign that you're already starting to do the head-work necessary to make the shift to being a real marketer. Just keep going. You're doing fine.

Cheers from warm and smiling Thaiand,
Charles

@Charlesburke:

I agree with what you mostly say, the idea about 'filtering' visitors, aren't these 'destined' visitors, the kind that you are drawing in anyways from your traffic sources? Sure, qualifying the lead/prospect needs to be there, but my perspective is that the 95%-98% of the visitors who come here by choice and not accident (regardless if they are not yet ready to buy the product), can still be marketed to, I am just of the opinion that we tend to shoo them away because of the long landing page.

I've always strive to increase the percentage of the visitors who do convert to sales, as opposed to simply bringing in more traffic.

Has anyone ever conducted a survey, preferably offline with their customers and really ask them if they actually read through the entire page, if it was too much reading for them? if they prefer shorter pages? etc.

I am sure there is a wealth of information in the feedback that marketers can get from their customers that can go towards the improvement of their landing page even further (after all a customer's perspective is priceless!)

I used to do this with my online sales order site. When calling them up, for credit card order verification, I would try to get a feedback (if I can, will not force it upon them, or make it part of my script), to see what they did or did not like when they come to my site and order. This actually helped me bump up my conversion rate.

Just my 2 cents.

If there's a $27 ebook that I wanted to buy then I don't need that much information to persuade me to whip out my credit card.

However, if the product is expensive i.e. a $997 product, then it must have as much info as possible for me to order it.

If it takes 15 pages to explain everything, then I will read every single word...unless the copy's boring as hell.

If I wanted to buy the product and the sales page was short, I would think hesitate in ordering. This is why long sales letters are written - for interested buyers.

An interested buyer would read a lot of the long sales copy whereas the non-buyers would think "Holy ****. Who would the hell would read all that."

Yes, you're right - if you're running your articles and PPC campaigns and other promotional efforts right, the people coming to your site are all qualified already. So why don't they all buy?

Probably because although every one of them is "interested," the level of that interest ranges from barely curious to raging, starving "gotta have it right now." The job of a good sales letter is to move as many of them as possible from mild interest to action.

Now, I've read some interesting comments about asking peoplle which kind of sales material they prefer. When asked, people will often tell you they prefer brief, clever award-winning type ads with lots of white space, and preferably with some humor thrown in.

But then again, when we don't ask them but instead just stand back and watch what they actually respond to (track what gets people to spend money), the artsy stuff loses every time - by a huge margin. Same with short versus long copy. The longer letter almost always pulls more sales (given equally interesting writing).

It's like those stupid, awful pop-ups on websites. Nobody likes them. Everybody fumes about them. And they would disappear tomorrow except for one tiny detail. They get signups. And they do it something like 300% more effectively than a static subscription form.

Any good copywriter has gone through the stage where s/he finally admits that, no matter how smart they think they are, they simply cannot predict with certainty how people will respond to any given advertising piece. That's why they all become fanatics about testing. Because they don't know. And if THEY don't know, what chance do you and I have of being right if we follow our own hunches, ideas, prejudices, intuitions, or whatever we want to call them. For my part, it took a long time for me to start listening to the guys with more experience and to follow their advice.

Some of the greatest ads and sales letters ever written were dark horses, unexpected winners. The "experts" didn't even know they'd win. That's just the way it is.

But some things we do know from the testing that other marketers have done in the past. One of those pieces of advice involves long sales letters versus short. Long usually wins. I may resist that idea, but that doesn't change it.

You know the difference between a psychotic and a neurotic?

A psychotic thinks that two plus two equal five. A neurotic knows that two plus two equal four, but he just HATES it.

That neurotic is me - I don't always like the long sales letter form, but it pulls the majority of the sales. So what's a poor innocent neurotic like me supposed to do? Only thing I can... I shrug and write longer copy. We all come around to that sooner or later.

Cheers from warm and smiling Thailand,
Charles

P.S. - what do you think? was this too long... too much answer?

Who the heck reads those long winded sales letters?

I do...

Sometimes.

I tend to read more of the sales letter the less I know about the person offering the product. Or the less I know about the product being offered.

When I've no idea about the product or person offering the product I spend the time to read every word of the sales letter.

When Robert Plank offers a PHP product I don't even read his sales letter. I just buy the product. Robert's PHP stuff is always excellent. So much so that I once paid for the same product twice and didn't know it until I downloaded the file and was asked if I wanted to overwrite the existing file.

I just recently purchased Market Samurai. It took me 2 days to decide that I would make the purchase. I spent that time reading every word on the Market Samurai website. I did a search for Market Samurai here and on a couple of other forums. What finally sold me were the Video Tutorials that you can find on their site prior to purchasing. Those videos made it apparent that I would save time when using the product, and quickly have access to information that I would not even bother to obtain if I didn't use the software.

My long winded point is that a Marketer does not know what will eventually turn a prospect into a customer. Unlike a sales person meeting the customer face to face we can't listen to what our customers are saying. Unfortunately, this fact means that we do not benefit from the clues any potential customer gives about their purchasing motivation during a conversation.

We must ensure that our sales letters do everything they can to answer all of the questions a potential customer might need answered before they make their purchase, and if that requires a long ass sales letter, then so be it.

In 2007 a much wiser man than I wrote a 51 page pdf that goes a long way towards answering this very question. The report is as relevant today as it was then. You can download it here:

Michael Fortin - Death of the Salesletter

Take Care,
Gene

Most buyers even don't read the whole script, but the headlines and sub headlines are what they read.

It's the 80:20 rule, in that 80% of the importance is in the limited 20% of headlines and sub headlines, highlighted in bold & colour, with the call to action inserted frequently, along with testimonials. Much as we don't like long copy, it works. They sell.

When im investing like a $100 in a product only then will i read the page a few times, not word for word just skimming the main points.

Long sales pages can be very irritating especially if they take ages to load.

Information should be clean concise and well laid out - it should follow a story line

People that read long pages are the ones who are new to a product - they like to learn all they can from the sales letter.

Maybe test 2 versions newbie version and professional version for pros

@Rezbi: I currently do not employ long paged sales letters. I very much prefer short write-ups (1 page) with multiple tabs if need be. I have read a few long paged sales letters just to answer the question.

@Alan Cheng - I agree with you, but do you want the 15 pages (or more) on that one page???

It seems the 'long sales letters' are purely employed by the community that is IM. No where else have I seen these. Only the IM community follows this. Rest of the world keeps it short, concise and tabs/pages/sidebars, etc to provide more information if required.

If I had to extrapolate my own question into an answer, the one reason I can think of is 'laziness'. Easier to make a single page, (almost ANYONE can make a single long page document), as opposed to multiple tabs/pages, sidebars, etc. But don't just let that be the only variable/factor for making long pages. I'm sure I'll learn the others as I go along.

However, having said this and looked at your (seasoned IMers) perspectives, I am going to give it shot. I think it would be conniving of me not to try.

Charles - your answer I enjoyed reading, too bad there were no testimonials!

As for me if I see a landing page that it too long I just leave, regardless of how interested I may be. The seller has about one page worth of text to keep me interested. If I really like what I see I leave the page and Google a few reviews of the product and decide to buy it after that.

I personally detest long sales pages with fake testimonials written by JV partners - but I am not their target audience either.
I wouldn't even buy replica watch, never join online university or visit online pharmacy store, leave alone buying anything off long sales pages

Tons of cash made by IM-ers selling to prospects - so they do work.

Gleb

I read every word. If I am going to invest in someone or buy something I want as much information as I can get. The internet is crawling with people ready to take my hard earned $$$. I got "Angela Pembroked". I am very cautious...I Google people before I buy!

I had a friend round a couple of days ago who wouldn't read a long sales letter.

So I read a piece to him written by John Carlton for a martial arts product.

After reading it I asked him if he wanted to buy it and he exclaimed, "Yeah! Of course".

Then I asked him what if I told him I thought the particular style of self defense is c'rap?

He was surprised.

(Of course the system may not be c'rap for most people but I happen to be a s'hit hot martial artist and instructor myself )

However, the fact is, if he was interested in LOOKING for a martial arts DVD he would have read it anyway, but he wasn't.

Funny thing is, he wanted to buy even thought he wasn't looking for it based on the strength of JC's writing.

That's the power of good copy, eh?

He says a lot of things he is not qualified to say.

Long vs short...

Who cares.

What it's all about is conversion rate.

Some people do things because they know they convert.

Other people do things because they saw someone else doing it.

Its not about how long or short copy is... its about how well it converts.

I buy a lot of programs and information products because I believed that this was the only way I was going to learn about internet marketing. But I personally don't read the long sales pages at all - for me to click on a link to a sales page the marketer has to be pretty persuasive in the email he sent me - by the time I have clicked on the sales page link the only thing I am worried about then is the price and if I think it is affordable then I buy it - Wow I just realized that makes me a great customer but probably not a very good marketer - maybe that is what I am doing wrong

I think the term I am looking for is "you had me at hello" - if I click on the sales page I am already half way there and I totally scroll down humungous pages to find the price because that is the only thing I am interested in.

Best wishes
Lisa

Thanks Rezbi, I just did

Long sales letters? Sure if they are well written! I have purchased a few products, not on the strength of a long winded landing page, but because I was given good and concise information and because I trusted the seller. A money back offer and other people's genuine recommendations go a long way in earning that trust.

Hey, this conversation is great. I greatly disliked those long sales for the longest time, even thinking most were shady or scams. Ever since I started studying internet marketing, I have a much different view of them. I have a product that I will be releasing soon, a high end simulator. My original thought was to sell it using videos (hiring a company to produce a short infomercial type commercial). But long sales letters might be a better route to go (less expensive to produce, easier to test multiple versions, easy to edit and improve). The one thing holding me back is, since my product is around 10k, do you think that the long sales might put off the affluent types vs. a neat professional looking site? Thanks in advance.

I never read the whole sales-page, because I know it will hypnotize one mostly. Be aware!
I totally agree with the feelings of thread starter. Me too say "BS" when I see pages showing "last date" of discount as today's date, ALWAYS. LMAO!

Hmmm... or would that be like asking a group of priests if you should attend church? LOL

I hate to break it to you guys but 97% of people think long copy sucks. I know this because only 3% buy.

You know ... I do somewhat agree with you... usually when I come across those types of pages I usually just quickly scam through and move on.. There was only one that ever really caught my attention , quickly scammed through , gave it some thought went back and re read it from top to bottom in and out every which way and took action. Usually I avoid those long winded sales pitch and get very annoyed, they all look the same regardless what their pitch or sale is , as soon as I see the big text (which almost literally just jump out at you)and same similar sales pitch .. i'm out, mainly because they all seem the same , out there to grab you in, most of the landing pages are like they are from one big conglomerate ... just my thoughts. Do a personal survey on what people would like to see when searching for a product .. what puts them off or what turns them on.. some people disagree with you here which is natural, but do your own survey and find out what people really would like to see when searching for a product...

I tend to read the headline and then scroll down to the price. Those 2 are my main filters for am I interested. Even if I am, I only skim read the rest and totally ignore the testimonials as to be frank I don't believe most of them, especially if they are all from internet marketers selling IM rather than 'real' customers with a site on say 'square roses'.

I read the headline, scroll down to the price and if I think it sounds reasonable, I'll go back and skim over some of the points. I rarely will read all of a long sales letter, no matter how interesting. Why? Too hard on my eyes to keep looking at the screen. I love reading, but not online. I also haven't got the time for a long sales pitch.

I know it's always been said that long copy has been tested to convert better, but how does the tester know? If I wanted a product and had skimmed it and then bought, why does that prove that the long copy sold better? I didn't read it and a shorter sales letter would have had the same result for me.

babushka99,

This may have already been stated here (the topic was a bit "long winded" for me to read all the way through but I'm thinking there's a difference between a 'Long Winded' sales letter and a really great sales letter.

There's millions, maybe billions of these long drawn out sales letter on the net (and off as well). And you're absolutely right - Who would want to read them?

On the other hand...

I've also seen online sales letters that are so long it's hard to read everything but you actually want to. One of my favorites is Ken Evoys site sell. That entire site is a sales letter and it's well worth the read. It's also worth studying for those who want to learn great copy.

Even the forum over there interacts as part of the sales letter via actual customers (and very happy ones it seems). To me it's truly amazing how it's all set up.

There are a ton more examples of this. And anyone can see why they work.

But again, you're right... There are just too many sales letters that just don't deserve to be read all the way through.

Fred

I'll read the first few paragraphs. If I like what I've read to that point, I'll shoot to the bottom to see if I can afford it.

Found a couple of products I'd love to have purchased this week, then I see the dreaded "oh, by the way..." line: "Delivered to you in 697 glorious hours of video."

Oh, well. At least I've saved a few bucks this week.

Pete