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CB Code: I am in SHOCK

by talfighel
239 replies
Ok, so I am promoting the CB code through Clickbank on my website and I personally have opted into the newsletter too through my own link just to see what kind of emails they are sending out.

Today, Saturday August 1st, I got another email from CB code and I was shocked to see that this person, when he needs to sell his own product, is selling another item on clickbank to his list ( From leads that we all generated for him) and what is shocking is that all the leads that we affiliates have generated for him, he is using it to promote other stuff from our own leads.

This is plain wrong and I am shocked to see this.

I will no longer promote this offer on my website. This is THEFT.

Tal
#affiliate programs #cbcode #code #shock
  • Profile picture of the author Shana_Adam
    Yes I do agree with that - but do they have the right?
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    • Profile picture of the author talfighel
      Originally Posted by Shana_Adam View Post

      Yes I do agree with that - but do they have the right?
      Why would they have the right to do this? This is THEFT. The leads that I am generating for them should make ME sales on Clickbank for $40 or so everytime someone buys in the future from my affiliate link.

      Tal
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Why would they have the right to do this? This is THEFT. The leads that I am generating for them should make ME sales on Clickbank for $40 or so everytime someone buys in the future from my affiliate link.
        From leads that we all generated for him) and what is shocking is that all the leads that we affiliates have generated for him, he is using it to promote other stuff from our own leads.
        Just guessing - but is that included in the TOS?

        If you generate leads "for him" how are they your own leads? I don't use this product but I expect use of the leads is covered in terms users agree to. I'm one of those crazy people who reads the TOS before I sign up for anything - and I've backed out of buying or joining several times when I saw some of the terms I was expected to agree to.

        kay
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        • Profile picture of the author talfighel
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Just guessing - but is that included in the TOS?

          If you generate leads "for him" how are they your own leads? I don't use this product but I expect use of the leads is covered in terms users agree to. I'm one of those crazy people who reads the TOS before I sign up for anything - and I've backed out of buying or joining several times when I saw some of the terms I was expected to agree to.

          kay
          Kay,

          When you promote something and the leads that you generate from your own HOP link on clickbank for any item, the emails that the company is sending out should promote their product.

          This guy is taking the leads that we generated for him, and promoting other products on clickbank with his OWN HOP link.

          That is just plain wrong.

          I think that you are mistaken for the fact that it is HIS list and he can do what ever he wants to and promote other stuff and steal our own commissions.

          When we generate leads for him from our own HOP links, if a subscriber buys the CB code after 2 months, the referring affiliate should get the commissions. This is how other programs work.

          Tal
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          • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
            I no longer promote products that collect email addresses.

            They overwrite my cookie
            Don't set the cookie at all
            Promote them stuff that I don't get credit for

            Screw them.
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            • Profile picture of the author talfighel
              Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

              I no longer promote products that collect email addresses.

              They overwrite my cookie
              Don't set the cookie at all
              Promote them stuff that I don't get credit for

              Screw them.
              I am with you brother.

              Tal
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            • Profile picture of the author Christian Fox
              Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

              I no longer promote products that collect email addresses.

              They overwrite my cookie
              Don't set the cookie at all
              Promote them stuff that I don't get credit for

              Screw them.
              Bingo I got wise to this just about a month ago.....

              I signed up as a customer for all of the products I was promoting 'opted in' and tested a few of the emails and what do you know...NO AFF link.

              The sales page had a stronger call to action for their FREE opt in offer than they did for the actual offer. BIG red flag! I either bypass their sales page completely and go direct to their CB order page (I can play dirty too ) Or dump them and switch all together. If they cancel me for doing so screw them they started the action by being unethical and this vendor is useless for me anyhow.

              I have also had vendors do this that will not reset my cookie even with an email opt in so I let those slide. But NOT if they promote additional offers to a customer I sent them without my cookie)

              Bottom line, pretend you are a customer and test this stuff out.

              I had one that was so friggen terrible I wanted to find him and bitch slap him. I had sent him thousands of visitors and got SQUAT for sales. I found another honest vendor in the same nice (lower gravity) but amazingly I started making money....

              Bottom line, become a customer and test everything all the way to the order page and look for the [affiliate = xxxxx] at the bottom of the CB order page.

              If it's not there they are playing dirty!


              Steve you are right, I learned this the hard way. I do NOT trust gravity at all. There have to be ways of manipulating this. I had another vendor I had had sent 1250 hops without a single sale and their gravity is 440+ Hmmmmmmm I bitched to the aff manager and gee I got three sales that day. I dumped them.
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            • Profile picture of the author Cash37
              Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

              I no longer promote products that collect email addresses.

              They overwrite my cookie
              Don't set the cookie at all
              Promote them stuff that I don't get credit for

              Screw them.
              Exactly. Don't promote products that squeeze the visitors on a list
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          • Profile picture of the author Intrepreneur
            Originally Posted by talfighel View Post

            That is just plain wrong.



            Tal
            I opnened my inbox today and found that almost every email that was from a page I was sent to were promoting another product to me.

            I don't see why it's wrong, it's business.
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          • Profile picture of the author Chris Grable
            Originally Posted by talfighel View Post

            Kay,

            When you promote something and the leads that you generate from your own HOP link on clickbank for any item, the emails that the company is sending out should promote their product.

            This guy is taking the leads that we generated for him, and promoting other products on clickbank with his OWN HOP link.

            That is just plain wrong.

            I think that you are mistaken for the fact that it is HIS list and he can do what ever he wants to and promote other stuff and steal our own commissions.

            When we generate leads for him from our own HOP links, if a subscriber buys the CB code after 2 months, the referring affiliate should get the commissions. This is how other programs work.

            Tal
            Maybe, I've never spent the time to think this through but it seems to me that this is one of the unavoidable aspects of affiliate marketing. I'm not very familair with the process but.... If they eventually purchase the original product will you still get the commission? Is he doing something to over write your cookie?

            Is he providing value in the newsletter for which he should legitimately expect some ROI?
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            I see your point and I understand it - I'd be frustrated too. But I still think if you read the TOS you'll find it's something you may have agreed to.

            The practice isn't as unusual as you seem to think - and I agree with Jeremy. If your visitors are sent to a signup on someone else's site they are going on that person's "list". You hope he is including your hoplink in followup emails - but you don't know that. You may assume the signup is just a way to enable sending emails pushing the sale of that one product - but you don't know that.

            I won't promote any product on CB that has a signup. I have contacted sellers in the past about this and several sent me links to alternate sales pages where no signup was included. Others openly told me that the signup is used to build their own list if the visitor doesn't buy from the sales page.

            When you promote something and the leads that you generate from your own HOP link on clickbank for any item, the emails that the company is sending out should promote their product.
            I agree that would be best - but I know it's not always the way it's done. When you are sending customers to someone else's page and they sign up on his opt-in - you are building his list. He controls his list.

            The best sellers are clear in their affiliate info that they send followups with your link in an attempt to make the sale for you. Some do that - many don't.

            kay
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            • Profile picture of the author cscarpero
              Happens all the time. If you don't like it, don't promote it.

              I'm getting away from promoting the CB money making products anyway as savvy affiliates know how to "self deal." Hey, I do it myself!

              The health type niches are a lot better about this.
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            • Profile picture of the author Sham Salih
              The best sellers are clear in their affiliate info that they send followups with your link in an attempt to make the sale for you. Some do that - many don't.
              I think it would be a little difficult for the product owner though , Remember some products have 100s of affiliates. it would be a little difficult to cross match the HOP link that the vistor was sent with and the affiliate HOP link

              A little impractical IMO because the product owner would have to send out 100s of the same emails to cater for all the affiliates.
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              • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
                Originally Posted by Sham Salih View Post

                I think it would be a little difficult for the product owner though , Remember some products have 100s of affiliates. it would be a little difficult to cross match the HOP link that the vistor was sent with and the affiliate HOP link

                A little impractical IMO because the product owner would have to send out 100s of the same emails to cater for all the affiliates.
                Not necessarily, if you use Aweber. Check out this recent thread:
                http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...salespage.html
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Okay, this needs to be said because I've seen more hypocrisy in this thread
              than I can even believe exists in this profession. No wonder I sometimes hate
              this business.

              Let's take a real world example...mine, so that you know I am speaking
              from experience and not theory.

              I generate an opt in list for 2 products I promote. No, I won't give the names
              because I don't want there to be even a hint of self promotion in them.

              What I can say (and he will come here and verify this I am sure) is that
              Willie Crawford actually promotes one of them, gladly. He really believes in
              it.

              He has made quite a few sales for me of this product.

              I play by Clickbank's rules and make sure my affiliates don't get cheated,
              meaning the hop links are registered correctly and I make follow up
              emails to the list trying to get them to buy...sometimes as many as 10 to
              20 followups or MORE.

              However, it is absolutely professional suicide to just rely on that ONE
              product for making a sale to these people. Maybe they're just not interested
              in that product but maybe they ARE interested in another product that I
              have.

              Therefore, I have every right to make pitches to that same list for other
              products that I promote. Otherwise, I am not making the most out of my
              list. I mean after all, isn't this as marketers what we are taught to do?

              1. Get them into our list
              2. Get them into our sales funnel with a lead in product
              3. Sell them other products down the road

              Please correct me if I'm wrong because unless I'm mistaken, this is taught
              in every marketing 101 book that I've ever read.

              Therefore, those of you who say that you won't promote any products
              where the merchant is building a list, that means that you don't create
              your own lists, correct?

              Or if you do, that means that you don't have an affiliate program for that
              product, correct? Because if you do and you feel the way that you do,
              why should an affiliate promote your product?

              To me, it's the same thing.

              Now, if a person is building a list off of affiliates to promote Product X and
              nowhere in that list does he ever promote product X, then that's wrong.

              But to say that he can only promote Product X to that list is the biggest
              load of BS I've ever heard in my life.

              If that were the case, then you can take everything you've ever learned
              about sales funnels and recruiting affiliates and toss them in the trash.

              They don't apply.

              Unbelievable...I'm almost speechless.
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              • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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                • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                  Steve,

                  I don't want to go through and quote as there is really only one point that I want to make...

                  Sure, you do it by the books....

                  But, I've opted into a couple of these lists and the email that I get 10 minutes later is for someone elses product or for a completely unrelated product that the original seller is pushing...

                  Sure, there are people doing it the "right way", but there are plenty of morons out there trying everything in the book that they can to "get over". That is just the way it is.

                  Do they have the right to do it? Maybe, but as affiliates we have the right to say "screw you" and not sell their stuff.

                  Well, I guess I have 2 points...

                  There is another mind-set in this thread that says "well, if it happens to you - it's your fault because you are promoting someone elses product" - THAT IS BS.

                  There are a lot of people that are just getting started with things like Bum Marketing and such that have no interest or know how to create their own products yet. So, because they are new it's ok for some of these people to do what they are doing?

                  Understandably, if they add visitors to their list, at some point they are going to pitch other products...But, should they do it in the first or second email? Shouldn't they at least try to sell the product that you sent the visitor for before bailing on it?
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                • Profile picture of the author mikeyman120
                  Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                  I no longer promote products that collect email addresses.

                  They overwrite my cookie
                  Don't set the cookie at all
                  Promote them stuff that I don't get credit for

                  Screw them.
                  Solve it like this.

                  Send your traffic to your own squeeze page instead of direct to the vendor. Once they opt in to your list do you think they are about to opt into the vendors list a few seconds later. I think most will say "I already subscribed so I am not subscribing again".

                  You then do the follow up to them with your affiliate link in the email.

                  You get the credit.

                  Besides most people don't order on the first visit. They need to see your sales message 7-9 times before they are ready to order so the follow up by the vendor helps you. That's how I see it. I don't know about them overwriting cookies though. I don't think that happens with clickbank sites. At least I hope it doesn't.

                  Mike
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              • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
                Couldn't have said it better myself, this whole thread has me a tad gobsmacked :confused:

                Kim

                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                Okay, this needs to be said because I've seen more hypocrisy in this thread
                than I can even believe exists in this profession. No wonder I sometimes hate
                this business.

                Let's take a real world example...mine, so that you know I am speaking
                from experience and not theory.

                I generate an opt in list for 2 products I promote. No, I won't give the names
                because I don't want there to be even a hint of self promotion in them.

                What I can say (and he will come here and verify this I am sure) is that
                Willie Crawford actually promotes one of them, gladly. He really believes in
                it.

                He has made quite a few sales for me of this product.

                I play by Clickbank's rules and make sure my affiliates don't get cheated,
                meaning the hop links are registered correctly and I make follow up
                emails to the list trying to get them to buy...sometimes as many as 10 to
                20 followups or MORE.

                However, it is absolutely professional suicide to just rely on that ONE
                product for making a sale to these people. Maybe they're just not interested
                in that product but maybe they ARE interested in another product that I
                have.

                Therefore, I have every right to make pitches to that same list for other
                products that I promote. Otherwise, I am not making the most out of my
                list. I mean after all, isn't this as marketers what we are taught to do?

                1. Get them into our list
                2. Get them into our sales funnel with a lead in product
                3. Sell them other products down the road

                Please correct me if I'm wrong because unless I'm mistaken, this is taught
                in every marketing 101 book that I've ever read.

                Therefore, those of you who say that you won't promote any products
                where the merchant is building a list, that means that you don't create
                your own lists, correct?

                Or if you do, that means that you don't have an affiliate program for that
                product, correct? Because if you do and you feel the way that you do,
                why should an affiliate promote your product?

                To me, it's the same thing.

                Now, if a person is building a list off of affiliates to promote Product X and
                nowhere in that list does he ever promote product X, then that's wrong.

                But to say that he can only promote Product X to that list is the biggest
                load of BS I've ever heard in my life.

                If that were the case, then you can take everything you've ever learned
                about sales funnels and recruiting affiliates and toss them in the trash.

                They don't apply.

                Unbelievable...I'm almost speechless.
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      • Profile picture of the author Chris Grable
        Am I missing something? You drove traffic to his site... They opted into his/her list... right?
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  • Profile picture of the author Marian Berghes
    I don't really get it, you mean the he is selling the product by bypassing your affiliate cookie or what?
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeannie Crabtree
    Tal, I am finding this to happen with a portion of the ones I am promoting and I have signed up for for their newsletter.

    I see it as a person has an obligation to assist his affiliates to make a sale, but once the people are on his list he also has the right to offer other things as well. There needs to be some balance.

    We as affiliates have to decide if we are comfortable with the mix of what is sent out.
    For one cb offer I have promoted a lot, Once I signed up for the newsletter, I found the promotion of other products is excessive and on a regular basis.

    I'm taking him out of my autoresponders as it is to the point of being in direct competition with the things I would sell and offer my own newsletter. edit - He is not spending enough time promoting what I sent people to his list for.

    Jeannie
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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      • Profile picture of the author talfighel
        Originally Posted by alexa_s View Post

        It's NOT "theft". Not in any sense of the word. But it's very common and most regrettable, of course, from the affiliate's point of view.

        You have (apparently) chosen to use your marketing skills, efforts, time, money and energy in driving traffic to a sales-page with an opt-in, thus opening up various possibilities of losing your commission payments. That's how affiliate sales "works".

        To me, as an affiliate, it's really difficult to understand why people choose to do this. I can see no advantages at all. The downside, however, is all too easy to understand.

        There are 100 other products without an opt-in on the sales page. Why not just promote one or two of those instead?! :confused:
        That is what I am doing right now. I had to change the link to another product on ClickBank with no opt in form.

        Tal
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      • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
        Originally Posted by alexa_s View Post

        It's NOT "theft". Not in any sense of the word. But it's very common and most regrettable, of course, from the affiliate's point of view.

        You have (apparently) chosen to use your marketing skills, efforts, time, money and energy in driving traffic to a sales-page with an opt-in, thus opening up various possibilities of losing your commission payments. That's how affiliate sales "works". (What do you think they're building a list for? Build your own, instead.)

        To me, as an affiliate, it's really difficult to understand why people choose to do this. I can see no advantages at all. The downside, however, is all too easy to understand, and hardly a cause of "shock", I think.

        There are 100 other products without an opt-in on the sales page. Why not just promote one or two of those instead?! :confused:
        Yeah, it's as simple as that.

        /thread
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      • Profile picture of the author MeCanX
        Originally Posted by alexa_s View Post

        It's NOT "theft". Not in any sense of the word. But it's very common and most regrettable, of course, from the affiliate's point of view.

        You have (apparently) chosen to use your marketing skills, efforts, time, money and energy in driving traffic to a sales-page with an opt-in, thus opening up various possibilities of losing your commission payments. That's how affiliate sales "works". (What do you think they're building a list for? Build your own, instead.)

        To me, as an affiliate, it's really difficult to understand why people choose to do this. I can see no advantages at all. The downside, however, is all too easy to understand, and hardly a cause of "shock", I think.

        There are 100 other products without an opt-in on the sales page. Why not just promote one or two of those instead?! :confused:
        Yeah, I'm learning this as to many times I have referred someone to something else and never seen anything else after that...

        That's why I'm just sticking with what works for me...
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  • Profile picture of the author talfighel
    If I knew that when I sent him traffic from my own ClickBank affiliate link and he was going to promote other products on clickbank and HE was going to get the commissions, I would not have gave him ANY traffic at all.

    This is his page where I used to send traffic to with my own CLICKBANK affiliate link:

    www.the-cb-code.com/

    So you guys figure this out.

    Tal
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    • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
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      Originally Posted by talfighel View Post

      If I knew that when I sent him traffic from my own ClickBank affiliate link and he was going to promote other products on clickbank and HE was going to get the commissions, I would not have gave him ANY traffic at all.


      Tal
      Common sense should tell you that no list owner is going to obligate themselves to promote one thing. If you were worried about what gets promoted to those folks, you should have put them on your own list.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sham Salih
    lol. welcome to internet marketing.

    You basically drive traffic to the CB Code website in hope to get a sale from the CB Product. In turn a vistor opt's in to the newsletter (by there own choice) because they are interested in the supposed material thats ment to come from the newsletter.

    In turn the newsletter owner promotes other peoples offers to the people on HIS/HER list.

    After all newsletters these days are just used to cross market products (well most newsletters anyway not all of them).

    This is not theft because the vistor has opted to receive information from the product owner.
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    • Profile picture of the author talfighel
      Originally Posted by Sham Salih View Post

      lol. welcome to internet marketing.

      You basically drive traffic to the CB Code website in hope to get a sale from the CB Product. In turn a vistor opt's in to the newsletter (by there own choice) because they are interested in the supposed material thats ment to come from the newsletter.

      In turn the newsletter owner promotes other peoples offers to the people on HIS/HER list.

      After all newsletters these days are just used to cross market products (well most newsletters anyway not all of them).

      This is not theft because the vistor has opted to receive information from the product owner.
      I am not new to IM. I have been online for few years now and am earning a full time income. I learn new things all the time.

      Tal
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  • Profile picture of the author Sham Salih
    or you could just create a landing page with your own opt in so you can build your own newsletter base and pitch out affiliate products.

    edit : never intended to say you where new or anything its just a saying . + I also learn new things about IM all the time
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    • Profile picture of the author talfighel
      Originally Posted by Sham Salih View Post

      or you could just create a landing page with your own opt in so you can build your own newsletter base and pitch out affiliate products.
      I already have my own list of almost 12,000 opt ins. I am not a newbie here.

      I just did not know that they do something like this. Thought that their job was to promote their product and when someone opts in and buys after even 2 months, I as an affiliate SHOULD get the commission.

      Never knew that this was a way for them to build their own list and promote other products at some point and rip off their affiliates who did bring them these leads from their own clickbank HOP link.

      TF
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      • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
        Originally Posted by talfighel View Post

        Thought that their job was to promote their product and when someone opts in and buys after even 2 months, I as an affiliate SHOULD get the commission.

        TF
        I agree that should happen. I'm not sure in what way they could track all that however. If someone opts into their list and they promote something, how can they make sure you get your commission. No cookie in that case. They would have to have something that tells the order system that you were the affiliate. Then, what happens if the same email signs up as a lead from your efforts and also signs up or buys from another affiliates efforts? Who gets credit?

        If there is software that would track a customer and their origination for x number of months I think a lot of vendors that are honest would use it. I know I would. It would ensure affiliates got paid and keeping affiliates happy is the way to riches.
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        • Profile picture of the author Dave Lovelace
          Originally Posted by Scott Ames View Post

          I agree that should happen. I'm not sure in what way they could track all that however. If someone opts into their list and they promote something, how can they make sure you get your commission. No cookie in that case. They would have to have something that tells the order system that you were the affiliate. Then, what happens if the same email signs up as a lead from your efforts and also signs up or buys from another affiliates efforts? Who gets credit?

          If there is software that would track a customer and their origination for x number of months I think a lot of vendors that are honest would use it. I know I would. It would ensure affiliates got paid and keeping affiliates happy is the way to riches.
          Hey Scott

          If it's a Clickbank product, the hop link sets a cookie for 60 days on the prospects computer (if they have cookies turned on, of course).

          There are some affiliate scripts that allow vendors to set cookies for life, # of years, months, etc. But with Clickbank, most people rely on the cookie. If the vendor properly follows up with the lead and uses his direct URL to the sales page in his follow up (and not his own CB link), then the affiliate gets the commission anytime over that 60 day period.

          But frankly, if the prospect hasn't purchased after 5-10 follow ups, he's not going to purchase THAT product. So at that point, the vendor is free to promote other products as he sees fit to monetize his business.

          However, if he/she has other products on Clickbank and promotes THOSE to the same prospect within 60 days, then you automatically get the credit (unless the prospect has cleared their cookies).

          To answer you last question, if a lead opts in and doesn't buy right away, but later receives an email from another affiliate promoting the vendor's product (and does a better job, such as using more affective pre-selling, review, etc), then when the lead clicks on that affiliate's link and decides to buy - because that affiliate hit a 'hot button' that no one else did - that affiliate gets the sale (because it's a "last clicked" rule for hop links).

          Dave
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      • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
        Originally Posted by talfighel View Post

        I already have my own list of almost 12,000 opt ins. I am not a newbie here.

        I just did not know that they do something like this. Thought that their job was to promote their product and when someone opts in and buys after even 2 months, I as an affiliate SHOULD get the commission.

        Never knew that this was a way for them to build their own list and promote other products at some point and rip off their affiliates who did bring them these leads from their own clickbank HOP link.

        TF
        Forgive me if this comes off sounding like a pompous ass, but the reality of the situation is after two months, those opt ins you sent him aren't going to buy the product if they haven't already.

        Beyond that, unless they changed something, clickbank cookies only last 30 days maximum. This means your comission even if they do buy will be zero anyhow.

        So why are you getting mad at him and screaming theft?

        All he's doing is trying to salvage something out of the deal. I'm sure if there was a way to do it fairly, he would cut you in on it, but unfortunately there isn't a way to do that, so he can't.

        Maybe instead of ranting, you develop such a revenue sharing solution. Affiliates the world over will love you for this, and so will I.
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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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          • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
            Originally Posted by alexa_s View Post

            Just to save Harvey from popping in to mention that it's actually 60 days because Clickbank is God's gift to marketing, I'll mention it myself, not that this small point detracts from the good sense of your post.
            Thanks for that one. I really thought it was only one month.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher View Post

          Maybe instead of ranting, you develop such a revenue sharing solution. Affiliates the world over will love you for this, and so will I.
          I don't see any reason why you couldn't save the referring affiliate along with the opt-in, and give that affiliate a commission on the first thing this prospect actually buys that doesn't come through another affiliate. So the affiliate delivers a prospect, and is thereby guaranteed one commission - no matter when it happens.

          I can certainly see why you wouldn't do this ("My affiliates don't deserve any of that money!"), but I don't see why you couldn't.
          Signature
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          • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            I don't see any reason why you couldn't save the referring affiliate along with the opt-in, and give that affiliate a commission on the first thing this prospect actually buys that doesn't come through another affiliate. So the affiliate delivers a prospect, and is thereby guaranteed one commission - no matter when it happens.

            I can certainly see why you wouldn't do this ("My affiliates don't deserve any of that money!"), but I don't see why you couldn't.
            Ok, how can you tell which affiliate sent each and every opt in to your list? Do you have a system of figuring that out I'm not aware of?

            Subscriber Fire has such a feature, but isn't designed to work with affiliate programs.

            Also, given an opt in to your list may be using a fake name, and multiple email addresses, how can you tell which list member made the purchase from the affiliate link you're now promoting, so you can credit the affiliate who originally sent them to you?

            See the problem?
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            • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
              Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher View Post

              Ok, how can you tell which affiliate sent each and every opt in to your list? Do you have a system of figuring that out I'm not aware of?
              Since we're talking about ClickBank, save the "hop" variable to a custom field in your list, then use it to construct all the ClickBank links in your emails.

              Also, given an opt in to your list may be using a fake name, and multiple email addresses
              Not your problem, if he doesn't click the links in your email. Besides, if you can't figure out who sent them, neither can your affiliates, n'est-ce pas?
              Signature
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              • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
                Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                Since we're talking about ClickBank, save the "hop" variable to a custom field in your list, then use it to construct all the ClickBank links in your emails.



                Not your problem, if he doesn't click the links in your email. Besides, if you can't figure out who sent them, neither can your affiliates, n'est-ce pas?
                Ok, now that could work with your product to ensure the referring affiliate gets the comission even after the cookie expires.

                But let's say, 6 months down the road, you send out an email to people who have finished with the sales followup series for a new product that you are an affiliate for. Using your system, the person who referred them to you gets all the comission, and you don't get squat.

                How do you split that comission between you, and the affiliate that originally referred them to you in the first place in a fair and equitable manner?
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                • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                  Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher View Post

                  Using your system, the person who referred them to you gets all the comission, and you don't get squat.
                  You would put the affiliate into the ClickBank hoplink by using the custom tag (on AWeber, you would type "{!custom whatever}") in your broadcast email.

                  If you don't want the affiliate in the link, don't do that.

                  These are not hard problems to solve. They haven't been solved because people don't really want to solve them.

                  "Oh, gee! You were supposed to get some money, but I got it instead? Yeah, I'll get right on that."
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  • Profile picture of the author David_Thompson
    If you don't want to have the vendor follow up with your leads
    then you will have to bypass the squeeze page and just go for
    the salespage...

    There are other ways to do all this...

    --David
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
    That is why you first build your own list and capture the names and emails before sending them off to a promotion. When you direct link to an affiliate program from your advertising you are missing out on the lifetime value of each person that subscribes onto their list.

    Once they subscribe to their list no matter how they got their the owner can promote other products, nothing wrong their. It is up to you to send followup for that product you are promoting so if you haven't built a list before sending them over then you are SOL...

    You can also create your own landing pages, email follow-up series etc... and link to their payment page. There are a lot of mixed feelings about that but it's not illegal from what I can see (I'm not a lawyer). The product owner should be capturing his customers information anyway sometime after they purchase.

    Mike Hill
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  • Profile picture of the author Trader54
    Originally Posted by talfighel View Post

    Ok, so I am promoting the CB code through Clickbank on my website and I personally have opted into the newsletter too through my own link just to see what kind of emails they are sending out.

    Today, Saturday August 1st, I got another email from CB code and I was shocked to see that this person, when he needs to sell his own product, is selling another item on clickbank to his list ( From leads that we all generated for him) and what is shocking is that all the leads that we affiliates have generated for him, he is using it to promote other stuff from our own leads.

    This is plain wrong and I am shocked to see this.

    I will no longer promote this offer on my website. This is THEFT.

    Tal
    You joined this forum in 2004?

    You are in shock and call this "theft?"

    Where have you been all this time?
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  • Profile picture of the author Frank Bruno
    Its your job as a marketer to know exactly what your promoting and how the vendor is selling an item your promoting. You should have did your DD before promoting so you could make an educated decision if you want to promote the product or not.

    Frank Bruno
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  • Profile picture of the author waken
    This is what a large percentage of internet marketers are doing. Nothing new. And it depends on how you look at it. It could be ethical and unethical.

    Generally speaking, if they re-pitch the same product with your aff code attached, and with their own code when pitching other related products, they are in essence, ethical.

    But if they never attach your aff code when pitching whatever products to the list (including the one that you initially drive traffic to..) then, they are a bit careless or technically faulty because they would have expect and assume or rely to the cookie to stay at visitors computer for as long as it's made and credit the last person who left the cookie there.

    Meantime, if they were to attach their own id when pitching whatever products to the list, it's obvious that these are nasty merchants.

    But it's nothing new. I have come across a lot of these so-called gurus and internet marketers that are nothing more than a sucker.

    P.S. But whatever it is, don't mention the product name. It's against the forum rule.

    The main overriding rule for this forum is this:

    If you have a problem with another Warrior, a Guru, or God, take it up with them directly. Not here. No exceptions.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kelly Verge
    I promote a product where they've recently added an opt-in to their sales page. It's pretty in-your-face, and the free offer is somewhat of a no-brainer. When they promote their product to their list, I suspect that no commission is paid. My sales dropped off almost immediately.

    Once I saw what they had done, I signed up for their list, read through their emails, then set up my own opt-in with my own content that basically replaced what they were offering. Now I get opt-ins on my list and I'm promoting their product via email. My sales are higher than before they added the opt-in, plus I now have a list to whom I can promote other products.

    When someone from my list hits their sales page, it's unlikely that they'll be interested in opting in for their freebie since I've just given them the same thing.

    My traffic, my list. =D
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
      Originally Posted by Kelly Verge View Post

      I promote a product where they've recently added an opt-in to their sales page. It's pretty in-your-face, and the free offer is somewhat of a no-brainer. When they promote their product to their list, I suspect that no commission is paid. My sales dropped off almost immediately.

      Once I saw what they had done, I signed up for their list, read through their emails, then set up my own opt-in with my own content that basically replaced what they were offering. Now I get opt-ins on my list and I'm promoting their product via email. My sales are higher than before they added the opt-in, plus I now have a list to whom I can promote other products.

      When someone from my list hits their sales page, it's unlikely that they'll be interested in opting in for their freebie since I've just given them the same thing.

      My traffic, my list. =D
      Now that is the way to do it
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    • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
      Originally Posted by Kelly Verge View Post

      I promote a product where they've recently added an opt-in to their sales page. It's pretty in-your-face, and the free offer is somewhat of a no-brainer. When they promote their product to their list, I suspect that no commission is paid. My sales dropped off almost immediately.

      Once I saw what they had done, I signed up for their list, read through their emails, then set up my own opt-in with my own content that basically replaced what they were offering. Now I get opt-ins on my list and I'm promoting their product via email. My sales are higher than before they added the opt-in, plus I now have a list to whom I can promote other products.

      When someone from my list hits their sales page, it's unlikely that they'll be interested in opting in for their freebie since I've just given them the same thing.

      My traffic, my list. =D
      w00t!!!

      Kickin the numbers HARD, Kelly....



      I love that kinda action talk!

      Peace

      Jay

      p.s. Anyone wanting to know HOW to overcome this... Kelly just told ya how..

      "Where is the chase?...... and.. can we cut to it!" - JayXtreme
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    I only collect names AFTER the sale for this very reason...

    The affiliate page on all of my products is blank, I'm not going into the right or wrong of it, just that I don't personally feel comfortable with it.

    I've made thousands of pounds promoting affiliate products that have opt-ins on the sales page... and most of them didn't have an effective follow up. My money came from the pre-selling I did beforehand.

    Sure, I probably made sales from the follow up.. but not even close to what should be.

    Some merchants are happy to leach off of the hard-working affiliate, only to justify it in their own mind with some random BS.... it comes down to ethics, I suppose.

    I'd much rather do everything in my power to give the affiliate cash first. An affiliate doesn't want to know what might happen in/from the follow up..... he/she wants to know how fast they can turn a result with YOUR product(s).. an opt-in can dramatically increase that, whether we care to admit it or not.

    I make the majority of my income as an affiliate, so I'm in both sides of this.. so when it comes to looking after my affiliates...I operate in the way I would like it if I was an affiliate for my own product.

    Peace

    Jay
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by talfighel View Post

    This is plain wrong and I am shocked to see this.
    Why is it shocking to suggest that if your prospect doesn't buy, and the vendor has to sell that prospect himself, you don't get your commission?

    You didn't do your job!

    The job of an affiliate is to presell the prospect, so the vendor doesn't have to do it himself. If you didn't do that very well, the vendor has to treat it like any other cold prospect, and it's every bit as much work. You get paid because you render a service, and if the service isn't rendered, you don't get paid.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      Why is it shocking to suggest that if your prospect doesn't buy, and the vendor has to sell that prospect himself, you don't get your commission?

      You didn't do your job!

      The job of an affiliate is to presell the prospect, so the vendor doesn't have to do it himself. If you didn't do that very well, the vendor has to treat it like any other cold prospect, and it's every bit as much work. You get paid because you render a service, and if the service isn't rendered, you don't get paid.
      That would be valid almost if some of these vendors "free report" wasn't more appealing than the actual product
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Lee
    I agree with Steven. Here's my take on this issue. If they subscribe and the vendor promotes the product (promoted by the affiliate) FIRST through several follow-ups, then I see nothing wrong if the vendor promotes other products AFTER the autoresponder follow-up sequences to that main product is over.

    But what the vendor must NOT do is override the affiliate cookie of the affiliate. The vendor must NOT also promote other products while the autoresponder sequence is being sent.

    Aweber allows you to send only to those who have finished an autoresponder sequence through their "Search Leads" function, so I think this is what vendors could do.
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  • Profile picture of the author misterwrecker
    I don't feel that all affiliate pages with opt in boxes should be avoided. Of course there are going to be people "being greedy" and cutting off your affiliate link so they can get the whole sale.

    I have successfully promoted products where there was an opt in box. The thing is the only way you will know what the merchant will do is to go on his list (like you did) and see how he is operating.

    There are a lot of honest people out there and we shouldn't all paint them with the same brush.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        To Jeremy and Alexa:

        I completely agree with everything you've brought up, which is why, quite
        honestly, I don't expect affiliates to promote my stuff and for the most part,
        they don't. I think my gravities are like 1 or 2. I make most of my sales from
        my own efforts, because I build a list.

        Point is...I trust me to close the deal sooner than I trust an affiliate.

        Why?

        Because most affiliates don't presell like I do and like Jay does and some
        others. Hell, every affiliate product I promote I have a review blog for and
        send people to the blog before I even send them to a sales page.

        Because of that, I will promote products that have opt ins because I
        believe in my ability to close the sale even before they get there.

        But absolutely. Everybody has the right to promote and not promote
        whatever they want and you don't want to promote products that have
        opt ins first, by all means don't.

        My point was simply that not every merchant that uses opt ins is a crook
        out to cheat affiliates out of their money.

        I sure don't.
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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by alexa_s View Post

            I'm one of the potential affiliates who would definitely not be put off by a gravity of 1 or 2. It's very high gravities that put me off. But this is a whole different subject perhaps for another day!
            Yes, it is a subject for another day, one that closely ties into why when
            people rag on me for not being more active in regard to recruiting affiliates
            I get all bent out of shape. But since I've already stated my reasons
            publicly, I won't repeat them here.

            However, it is because of those reasons that I build my own list through
            my products (not all, but some) and rely on myself to get the job done.

            To do it otherwise, I'd have to give up the idea of building a prospect's
            list, hope to get affiliates to generate a buyers list for me (on followup
            after the sale) and then hope that they're happy enough with the product
            to purchase other products down the road.

            I can tell you without blinking an eye, relying on that model, my list wouldn't
            be half the size it is now.

            So in this case, doing my own work, while many will say is not the most
            efficient way, for me, is the better way.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


          My point was simply that not every merchant that uses opt ins is a crook
          out to cheat affiliates out of their money.
          I hope I didn't give the impression that ALL MERCHANTS were doing this...If I did, then I want to make it clear - That is not what I meant.

          Totally agree with you there Steve.

          Jeremy
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

            I hope I didn't give the impression that ALL MERCHANTS were doing this...If I did, then I want to make it clear - That is not what I meant.

            Totally agree with you there Steve.

            Jeremy

            I guess what's sad is that the few bad apples (and they are out there)
            louse things up for the rest of us.

            Truth is, if everybody played by the rules, you'd have no problems
            promoting affiliate products that had opt ins to collect leads.

            At least that's my assumption anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong.

            Another case of the few screwing it up for the many.

            Why am I not surprised?
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      • Profile picture of the author mikeyman120
        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

        I no longer promote products that collect email addresses.

        They overwrite my cookie
        Don't set the cookie at all
        Promote them stuff that I don't get credit for

        Screw them.
        Hey all,

        I have a bunch of clickbank sites and this doesn't happen when I test it. If you send someone to a clickbank site through your link and then someone clicks a new link that is www.domain.com it will not overwrite your cookie. You will still get the credit. The CB code is a clickbank product so you should be ok as far as you getting the sale if then person orders through an email.

        As far as them selling something else while they should be promoting the product that will make the affiliate the profit well that is wrong. But like Michael mentioned above after the auto responder sequence is over you can then move onto other products. Seems ok to me.

        Mike
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        • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
          Originally Posted by mikeyman120 View Post

          Hey all,

          I have a bunch of clickbank sites and this doesn't happen when I test it. If you send someone to a clickbank site through your link and then someone clicks a new link that is www.domain.com it will not overwrite your cookie. You will still get the credit. The CB code is a clickbank product so you should be ok as far as you getting the sale if then person orders through an email.
          I think we sorta understood this little bit... but thanks for saving us all ayways..
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          • Profile picture of the author mikeyman120
            Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

            I think we sorta understood this little bit... but thanks for saving us all ayways..
            Ya, I hear ya! I fixed my post, forget to quote and no everyone didn't get it.

            Mike
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          • Profile picture of the author actionplanbiz
            Ya that Does Sound pretty Nasty.

            but whats worst is when the give out your info.

            i was looking for a product to promote in CB and i opt in to an affiliate newsletter. and ever since i did that i am getting tons of emails from
            different lists. i unsubscribe to about 20 of them and they are still coming in.
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            • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
              Originally Posted by actionplanbiz View Post

              Ya that Does Sound pretty Nasty.

              but whats worst is when the give out your info.

              i was looking for a product to promote in CB and i opt in to an affiliate newsletter. and ever since i did that i am getting tons of emails from
              different lists. i unsubscribe to about 20 of them and they are still coming in.

              Hey man, don't worry about it..Saying that you won't share email addresses and doing it anyway is just marketing...lol WTF
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              • Profile picture of the author Jamie Lewis
                If he sends out an offer to his list without his ID, he will not get credit, you will not get credit either. LOL
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                • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                  Originally Posted by Jamie Lewis View Post

                  If he sends out an offer to his list without his ID, he will not get credit, you will not get credit either. LOL
                  Really?

                  I guess that is why the ones we are talking about include their own
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                  • Profile picture of the author Jamie Lewis
                    Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                    Really?

                    I guess that is why the ones we are talking about include their own
                    So is the argument that he should not be promoting anyone else's products with his list?

                    A smart vendor will send out follow ups without his ID, so that the affiliate will get a better conversion rate, in turn, will promote his product more.

                    It will also add gravity.

                    Those CB vendors who overwrite your cookie with their ID when promoting their own product or sending follow ups are not only unethical, but are losing out on gravity. Those are two reasons why all of us vendors do not do that. LOL
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                    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                      Originally Posted by Jamie Lewis View Post

                      So is the argument that he should not be promoting anyone else's products with his list?
                      No, well...thats not my argument anyway

                      But, as an affiliate I am a little pissed off when the first email that they send to a prospect after opting in is for a completely different product from another product creator.

                      Ideally, it would be nice if the vendor at least sent a couple follow ups to the person opting in to sell the product that the visitor was presold on. Obviously at some point the list owner is going to promote other products - It would be stupid of them if they didn't.

                      I personally only take exception with the ones that do it right away or include their own tracking ID in the follow up emails instead of mine...
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                      • Profile picture of the author Jamie Lewis
                        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                        No, well...thats not my argument anyway

                        But, as an affiliate I am a little pissed off when the first email that they send to a prospect after opting in is for a completely different product from another product creator.

                        Ideally, it would be nice if the vendor at least sent a couple follow ups to the person opting in to sell the product that the visitor was presold on. Obviously at some point the list owner is going to promote other products - It would be stupid of them if they didn't.

                        I personally only take exception with the ones that do it right away or include their own tracking ID in the follow up emails instead of mine...

                        I hear you on the follow ups. I would be surprised if a top10 CB vendor didnt do a series of follow ups, I personally do 3 or so of them. Follow ups are automatic, you don't "send" an email manually, it does it with a timer, 1st day, 2nd day, then if a product comes out you blast it to your list, but you need to put your ID or you wont get credit. I don't know about Michael Jones but Ive actually never heard of any of my affiliates objecting when I promote. I work hard at maintaining my list, and it is common practice to offer products to your subscribers. I am not aware of anyway I can get an affiliate credit for a sale outside of my site and I dont think any other CB vendors can either.
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          • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
            I understand where you are coming from.Although i really would not consider it theft.It is after all his website.I am promoting several clickbank products and i never really looked at it like that.
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            • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
              Originally Posted by spoon4160 View Post

              I understand where you are coming from.Although i really would not consider it theft.It is after all his website.I am promoting several clickbank products and i never really looked at it like that.

              Good deal man!! Just what I wanted to hear

              I'm going to send you a PM with a couple of things to promote. Work your ass off and send me all your traffic so, I can capture the email addresses, strip your affiliate ID and make BANK.

              Good luck on making the sale on the sales page because I'll make sure that the free offer kicks some major ass lol

              This is good news! I never knew that it was so acceptable to roll like this. Hell, I've got a whole new business model!

              Jeremy
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      • Profile picture of the author misterwrecker
        Originally Posted by alexa_s View Post

        Clearly.



        I don't paint any of them with any brush at all. I just don't promote products with an opt-in box on the sales-page, and that way I don't have to try to assess their honesty or lack of it at all. Problem solved.

        If anyone can tell me an advantage of being an affiliate for a product with a sales-page opt-in, when compared with otherwise the same product without one, I'm all ears (but I've been asking this question here occasionally over the last 9 months or so, and nobody ever has done so far).

        Yes Alexa, if you do not want to promote products with an opt in box that is obviously
        your own choice. I am not here to promote that idea.

        The best is for the affiliate to have their own list but if not a sales page opt in from a vendor that sends a 5 or 10 day course ,for example, can be beneficial to the affiliate. If the vendor does the right thing you will gain extra sales from those emails.

        The thing is that now that customer belongs to the vendor's list so you cut off ties to make ongoing sales from that same "buying" prospect.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
    So,

    - I promote produt A
    - I send traffic to produt A sales page
    - They place a new opt-in
    - Visitors opt-in and get the free stuff
    - 10 minutes pass and the owner of product A sends a email promoting product B with his HOP

    And some of you think this is ok? Jesus...
    Signature
    People make good money selling to the rich. But the rich got rich selling to the masses.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
      Originally Posted by Fernando Veloso View Post

      So,

      - I promote produt A
      - I send traffic to produt A sales page
      - They place a new opt-in
      - Visitors opt-in and get the free stuff
      - 10 minutes pass and the owner of product A sends a email promoting product B with his HOP

      And some of you think this is ok? Jesus...


      Certainly not all of them do it that way - But, I've personally found quite a few that do...

      They sell a $47 product on clickbank - Throw up an opt-in that gives away a "how to make 10K while you sleep report" so, you opt-in. They then send you an email promoting Guru Y's $997 course with their affiliate info...

      I'm honestly surprised noone has created a product out of the process yet lol

      hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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    • Profile picture of the author reelfat
      [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Fernando Veloso View Post

      So,

      - I promote produt A
      - I send traffic to produt A sales page
      - They place a new opt-in
      - Visitors opt-in and get the free stuff
      - 10 minutes pass and the owner of product A sends a email promoting product B with his HOP

      And some of you think this is ok? Jesus...

      Absolutely not okay. IMO, this is pretty low.

      But to expect that merchant to NEVER promote anything other than
      that product to his list is unfair.

      What if it's a new product and he's finding out that it just doesn't
      convert? In other words, it's sucking wind for him.

      Is he just supposed to say, "Oh well, guess I can't make any money with
      this list."

      As I said, it is YOUR right to boycott any sales pages that have opt ins
      first.

      It is also the right of the merchant to sell other products besides the main
      one he's promoting as long as he fairly tries to promote that product to
      his list in order for his affiliates to earn their commissions.

      If they don't, they stop promoting for him so how does this help him?

      It doesn't. It's counter productive and it's illogical.

      But some people just don't get that.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rachel Zaouche
        Hey you guys that promote this CB Code - perhaps you have just found out the "secret" as to how he generated $48000 in his first month as a clickbank affiliate. (note the sarcasm!)

        I think what he is doing is wrong - yes of course he should promote to his list BUT only after people buy his own product. To ask affiliates to send traffic to his page so that they can sign up to his opt in so he can promote other clickbank products IMMEDIATELY is just lazy and stupid i.e. how many affiliates on here are going to feel good promoting his product now?

        But then how many affiliates promoting this CB product have read/watched it and feel right recommending it in the first place?

        I recently bought another Clickbank product which was suitable for my list. I read it to find it was a direct (word for word) copy of a Wiki entry. Refunded straight away and said a couple of prayers that I hadnt promoted that crxp to anyone.

        If you have an email list, do yourself a big favour and be 100% sure you know what you are actually promoting. You will make more money in the long term.

        Just my two cents on this

        Rach
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
        Let's look at it from a vendor point of view for the moment.

        Why did I create a product? Likely, I created a product because I felt I could make more money with my own product than promoting someone else's. Maybe my product is better, maybe it has a lower price, maybe my sales pitch is better. Whatever. Bottom line is that I created a product because I thought I could make more money that way.

        Someone comes to my site and ends up signing up for my list. That means I either pushed them to signup for my list or they decided not to make a purchase and signup for my list instead. Where that someone came from is inconsequential at this point. I have a prospect, not a customer.

        Why then would I turn around and try to sell the prospect something other than my own product? Remember, I created a product because I thought I could make more money that way. It doesn't make sense for me then to try to push an affiliate product on my prospects instead of my own product.

        Eventually, if several messages doesn't compel the prospect to buy my product, then it may make sense for me to try to push something else. I may make less money recommending an affiliate product to them, but it will be more money than none at all.

        Never mind the subjective right or wrongs of it, if I immediately push someone else's product to my list, maybe it's because my product really isn't that good. If I had faith in the quality of my product, why wouldn't I be promoting the heck out of it instead of trying to sell prospects on something else? And, if I'm using the product solely to build my list, why sell it at all? Why not just give it away? So, from a business standpoint, you, as an affiliate, might not want to promote me because my product may not be any good or I may be so clueless on marketing that it's not worth your efforts to try to overcome my shortcomings.

        Another thing is that, as a vendor, I can run my affiliate program any way I want. If I want to carry your affiliate ID through my mailing list so that you'll still get credit it for it if the sale is made two weeks from now instead of today, that's my prerogative. Conversely, I can consider that you had your chance at the sale and couldn't close, so if my pitches from my list are what convinces them to buy, then I should reap the full benefits. Again, as a vendor, that's my prerogative.

        There really isn't a right or wrong here. In some instances, it's just bad marketing. In others, it is a matter of opinion as to how affiliate programs should be run. There is no one-size-fits-all approach. That's why you need to choose vendors that you are comfortable working with and have approaches that you feel are most beneficial to you.

        Maybe Clickbank (and others) could require vendors have an affiliate policy page where they explain the particulars of how they do things. In the meantime, do your own due diligence in checking things out.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Fernando Veloso View Post

      And some of you think this is ok? Jesus...
      Here's something else that's okay.

      You affiliate with a vendor, and use that vendor's product to get someone on YOUR list. Ten minutes after they sign in, you send them email promoting a competing product you made yourself that costs less.

      Now you've cut the vendor out of the loop. What's good for the goose, and all that. If you wouldn't do such a thing, and I certainly wouldn't, that's your call. If you object to your vendor doing what he's doing, that's also your call, and you can stop promoting his product. But there's certainly nothing shocking about either of these situations; it's just business.
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        Here's something else that's okay.

        You affiliate with a vendor, and use that vendor's product to get someone on YOUR list. Ten minutes after they sign in, you send them email promoting a competing product you made yourself that costs less.

        Now you've cut the vendor out of the loop. What's good for the goose, and all that. If you wouldn't do such a thing, and I certainly wouldn't, that's your call. If you object to your vendor doing what he's doing, that's also your call, and you can stop promoting his product. But there's certainly nothing shocking about either of these situations; it's just business.
        BINGO!

        Hit nail on head... That's the most sensible answer I've read in this thread and much better than mine.

        Mike Hill
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        • Profile picture of the author Christian Fox
          Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

          BINGO!

          Hit nail on head... That's the most sensible answer I've read in this thread and much better than mine.

          Mike Hill
          Are you saying....

          Get them to opt in on your page with a free offer or whatever, then send them on to the vendor and try to cut them off at the pass with a quick email?

          Most transitions would be completed by then I would think?

          Also if you have your own product why not just promote that directly? Or are you simply capitalizing on the vendors 'brand' to get the initial interest in the product to begin with?

          Could someone elaborate a bit? I in general would not do this but I have one in particular I would have ZERO issue doing this to as they wasted a LOT of my time and effort before I caught them being shady.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
            Originally Posted by Christian Fox View Post

            Are you saying....

            Get them to opt in on your page with a free offer or whatever, then send them on to the vendor and try to cut them off at the pass with a quick email?

            Most transitions would be completed by then I would think?

            Also if you have your own product why not just promote that directly? Or are you simply capitalizing on the vendors 'brand' to get the initial interest in the product to begin with?

            Could someone elaborate a bit? I in general would not do this but I have one in particular I would have ZERO issue doing this to as they wasted a LOT of my time and effort before I caught them being shady.

            I've never done this but in business and marketing there are no rules... (except that from the FTC)

            Look at the infomercials with Vince. He pitches products very similar to the ones Billy Mayes used to...

            Just put on your marketing hat and think outside the box. I have a ton of ideas but that's for another day...

            The marketers who can think without constraint are the ones gaining all the attention and focus, don't you think?

            Mike Hill
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      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        Here's something else that's okay.

        You affiliate with a vendor, and use that vendor's product to get someone on YOUR list. Ten minutes after they sign in, you send them email promoting a competing product you made yourself that costs less.

        Now you've cut the vendor out of the loop. What's good for the goose, and all that. If you wouldn't do such a thing, and I certainly wouldn't, that's your call. If you object to your vendor doing what he's doing, that's also your call, and you can stop promoting his product. But there's certainly nothing shocking about either of these situations; it's just business.
        Why the hell would an affiliate go through that much trouble?

        Why wouldn't they just send them directly to the offer they wanted to promote?
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        • Profile picture of the author Christian Fox
          Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

          Why the hell would an affiliate go through that much trouble?

          Why wouldn't they just send them directly to the offer they wanted to promote?
          Right that is what I was thinking... The only answer I would think is if you were using their 'brand' to garner the initial attention. And if that is the case why bother sending them to the vendor at all?
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          • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
            Originally Posted by Christian Fox View Post

            Right that is what I was thinking... The only answer I would think is if you were using their 'brand' to garner the initial attention. And if that is the case why bother sending them to the vendor at all?
            I don't think that is what he was trying to say, but I guess we will know when he responds...The way he laid it out though, it seems like an aweful lot of work when you could send the people directly to the offer you wanted to promote initially or to your own opt-in page...

            Completely different story for vendors though...

            They don't have to do anything to build their list as the affiliates from CB will do it for them which there is nothing wrong with if they are doing what is implied will be done, which is to collect email addresses to at least initially try to sell the product which the affiliate sent them to the page for - WITH THEIR COOKIE INTACT.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

          Why the hell would an affiliate go through that much trouble?

          Why wouldn't they just send them directly to the offer they wanted to promote?
          I did write a very long description of why, but it's too good to give away for free, so I shoved it into the product I'm developing instead. It doesn't really fit very well, so it will probably end up as a standalone report.

          I'll still give you a short description, though.

          Think of it as an upsell. What you really want is for the customer to buy your product AND the vendor's product... indeed, you want your customer to buy the product the vendor promotes next, too. There's more money in it that way.
          Signature
          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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          • Profile picture of the author Christian Fox
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            I did write a very long description of why, but it's too good to give away for free, so I shoved it into the product I'm developing instead. It doesn't really fit very well, so it will probably end up as a standalone report.

            I'll still give you a short description, though.

            Think of it as an upsell. What you really want is for the customer to buy your product AND the vendor's product... indeed, you want your customer to buy the product the vendor promotes next, too. There's more money in it that way.
            OK I think I have some of the concept.... I agree you can't 'give away' all of your secrets. Too much competition here

            Let me know when you release the WSO..
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  • Profile picture of the author Trader54
    You can always approach the merchant and get them to make you a separate page to send your traffic were there is no opt-in.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
      Originally Posted by Trader54 View Post

      You can always approach the merchant and get them to make you a separate page to send your traffic were there is no opt-in.
      ClickBank can't make a vendor do that...

      As for everyone else I don't see what all the crying is about... if you think it's unfair go create a competing product or bypass their sales page, create your own sales page and send them directly to the vendors order page at ClickBank.

      It's easy to do so go get it done already, stop moaning or stop promoting that product. There are a ton of Super Affiliate who will do what I described.

      Mike Hill
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      • Profile picture of the author Trader54
        Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

        ClickBank can't make a vendor do that...

        Mike Hill
        I didn't say clickbank would make them do that, but the merchant might do it for them.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
          Originally Posted by Trader54 View Post

          I didn't say clickbank would make them do that, but the merchant might do it for them.
          Oh yeah your right they might... my bad

          Mike Hill
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      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
        Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

        ClickBank can't make a vendor do that...

        As for everyone else I don't see what all the crying is about... if you think it's unfair go create a competing product or bypass their sales page, create your own sales page and send them directly to the vendors order page at ClickBank.

        It's easy to do so go get it done already, stop moaning or stop promoting that product. There are a ton of Super Affiliate who will do what I described.

        Mike Hill
        Mike, it's great that many people are in a position to do that, but what about the marketer that is only interested in being an affiliate? After all, that is what Clickbank is set up for right - For affiliates to sell other peoples products?

        It's pretty unfair to say it's OK for some merchants to be deceitful and in some cases outright crooks just because their is other options. Hell, some of the newer marketers don't even know what to look for. I sure wouldn't have known a year and a half ago...
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
          Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

          Mike, it's great that many people are in a position to do that, but what about the marketer that is only interested in being an affiliate? After all, that is what Clickbank is set up for right - For affiliates to sell other peoples products?

          It's pretty unfair to say it's OK for some merchants to be deceitful and in some cases outright crooks just because their is other options. Hell, some of the newer marketers don't even know what to look for. I sure wouldn't have known a year and a half ago...
          Well I'm sure there not being crooks just because they have an optin and then promote other stuff too.. Every marketer has to do their own due diligence, create a marketing plan which will include how you are going to get around some stuff when deciding of your own free will to promote a product because well that's just life.

          If an affiliate or anybody promotes a product then cries foul due to a marketer being a marketer and building their business (no one said you as an affiliate couldn't build your list either) then I'm sorry but it's your own fault.

          The thing is, instead of crying about it... move on... that's the way the cookie crumbles.

          Oh and BTW when you promote products from CJ or Amazon do you think those companies are building a list from your traffic? (Um.. yeah!)

          The good news is promoting a ClickBank product you are getting a far greater commission percentage than the industry standard that's for sure.

          Mike Hill
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          • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
            Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

            Well I'm sure there not being crooks just because they have an optin and then promote other stuff too.. Every marketer has to do their own due diligence, create a marketing plan which will include how you are going to get around some stuff when deciding of your own free will to promote a product because well that's just life.

            If an affiliate or anybody promotes a product then cries foul due to a marketer being a marketer and building their business (no one said you as an affiliate couldn't build your list either) then I'm sorry but it's your own fault.

            The thing is, instead of crying about it... move on... that's the way the cookie crumbles.

            Oh and BTW when you promote products from CJ or Amazon do you think those companies are building a list from your traffic? (Um.. yeah!)

            Mike Hill
            Mike, I'm not talking about all of the vendors on clickbank

            I'm referring to the ones that do what I described above...

            1. Get affiliates
            2. Make their "free report" more appealing than the product
            3. Get the opt-in
            4. Instead of pitching their $47 ebook they try to sell someone elses $997 course.
            5. Overwrite your cookie so you don't get credit even if their product is sold.

            It actually happens quite a bit...
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      • Profile picture of the author Christian Fox
        Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

        ClickBank can't make a vendor do that...

        As for everyone else I don't see what all the crying is about... if you think it's unfair go create a competing product or bypass their sales page, create your own sales page and send them directly to the vendors order page at ClickBank.

        It's easy to do so go get it done already, stop moaning or stop promoting that product. There are a ton of Super Affiliate who will do what I described.

        Mike Hill
        Agreed...

        I do this and I am far from a super affiliate but getting closer every day!
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  • Profile picture of the author netkickstart
    Tal, you would've liked this one then: http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...u-hear-us.html
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  • Profile picture of the author mikeyman120
    Originally Posted by talfighel View Post

    Ok, so I am promoting the CB code through Clickbank on my website and I personally have opted into the newsletter too through my own link just to see what kind of emails they are sending out.

    Today, Saturday August 1st, I got another email from CB code and I was shocked to see that this person, when he needs to sell his own product, is selling another item on clickbank to his list ( From leads that we all generated for him) and what is shocking is that all the leads that we affiliates have generated for him, he is using it to promote other stuff from our own leads.

    This is plain wrong and I am shocked to see this.

    I will no longer promote this offer on my website. This is THEFT.

    Tal
    You may have gotten a simple aweber or getresponse broadcast email sent from the vendor which coincided with you just joining his list. Thus it seems like the vendor was out to promote something else when he should have been promoting cbcode but had no ill intentions. They were just sending an email to their list that they may have meant to do for a while. This comes with list building. The guy was just sending an email to his list that he had been building for a while.

    Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author mikeyman120
      Originally Posted by talfighel View Post

      Ok, so I am promoting the CB code through Clickbank on my website and I personally have opted into the newsletter too through my own link just to see what kind of emails they are sending out.

      Today, Saturday August 1st, I got another email from CB code and I was shocked to see that this person, when he needs to sell his own product, is selling another item on clickbank to his list ( From leads that we all generated for him) and what is shocking is that all the leads that we affiliates have generated for him, he is using it to promote other stuff from our own leads.

      This is plain wrong and I am shocked to see this.

      I will no longer promote this offer on my website. This is THEFT.

      Tal

      Originally Posted by mikeyman120 View Post

      You may have gotten a simple aweber or getresponse broadcast email sent from the vendor which coincided with you just joining his list. Thus it seems like the vendor was out to promote something else when he should have been promoting cbcode but had no ill intentions. They were just sending an email to their list that they may have meant to do for a while. This comes with list building. The guy was just sending an email to his list that he had been building for a while.

      Mike
      I'm quoting myself. I think it is just a misunderstanding. It's a simple broadcast email to a list. It happens.
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  • Profile picture of the author AlphaWarrior
    FWIW I stopped promoting CB products where the vendor has an optin list. Several that I checked had their own CB code in their emails and if someone clicked on it, then my CB code was replaced by their code and I lost a potential sale. I found vendors who cleverly used a slightly different domain for the mail list so that it would appear that the click came from someone other than the vendor.

    Bottom line is to sign up for their emails, when you get a email, click on the buy link, and then look to see whose CB code is at the bottom of the order page.
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Brock
      Slightly confused as to what we are talking about.

      Are we referring to vendors who are ripping affiliates off by supplementing their affiliate link in their mailing list?

      So basically the affiliate sends the traffic, the person hits the opt-in, and then the vendor reaps the benefits.

      Or are we talking about vendors who pay the affiliate referral fee for the sale, but then try to sell products on the backend to the list that was generated by the affiliates?

      Like you as an affiliate are promoting Product A for the vendor - you make the sale, and later on the vendor starts marketing Product B to his list?
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by dbbrock1 View Post

        So basically the affiliate sends the traffic, the person hits the opt-in, and then the vendor reaps the benefits.
        Yeah, that's the issue.

        It comes down to exit paths. You go to a vendor's sales page, and there should be one exit - ONLY one exit. "Buy now."

        When there are two exits, and one of them doesn't pay the affiliate anything, instead giving the vendor an opportunity to sell behind the affiliate's back... that's not good for the affiliate.

        But it's perfectly fair.

        How many affiliates out there have a page with several products on it from different vendors? Should your vendors get mad at you for that? After all, you're giving the customer an opportunity to buy some other product, and only that product's vendor makes any money!

        The bottom line is that it's about sales. You do what makes you the most sales. You try to make the sales that make you the most money. If your customers are wandering off instead of staying the course you set for them, you're not doing enough.

        Alexa has it right: if you don't like the opt-in choice on the vendor's page, don't sell for that vendor. If you don't want to stop selling that product, for whatever reason, do something on your end to reduce or eliminate the problem.
        Signature
        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    As a clickbank merchant, I've put opt-in lists on some of my product pages. And on those products, my affiliates' payments have actually almost doubled. I think it's wrong to throw all merchant opt-ins under the bus. I grab a list of people that may not have ever come back to the page to buy. Then I can make the pitch to them again later - (possibly when they get paid) and they'll end up buying.

    However there's only so many times you can push the same product, before people start leaving your list in droves. And besides, after 60 days, the affiliate cookie is gone anyway. So yes I promote other products to my list. It would be a waste not to. However, the ROI for my affiliates is greatly increased w/ my optin list being there. Not only have I tested it, but my gravity scores prove it out.


    Also - have you ever collected emails for CPA marketing? You may get $2 or $3 per email address, but you'll never see another dime from the money they make from those email addresses.
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  • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
    As someone said in an earlier post. Get the person on YOUR list first. Then pre-sell them properly. Then send them right to the order page through your aff. link. Sale. Case closed. Sell them other related stuff. Make more money. Be happy.

    TomG.
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  • Profile picture of the author InternetMarketingIQ
    It happens all the time and not just on Clickbank. That's why you take the time to go through the buy process and sign up for the email so you can see what is on the backend. There are people creating affiliate programs just so they can pitch other peoples products. I see this a lot in CPA networks as well.

    All you can do is quit promoting their stuff. And when they get tired of it they usually just throw up adsense or cpa and move on to the next thing, because a lot of people will never take down their links... especially form free sites.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ryan6
    You can always offer incentive to the customer via going through your link. Then you only pay out when you have been credited for the commission. Remember, you have all that time to convince the buyer to purchase the specific listed product and so they shouldn't be interested in the crappy opt-ins, they should be interested in the exact product that you're pitching.

    I'm not experienced with Clickbank, but I know that the vendors aren't exactly screened very well - it's not like working as an affiliate for an established high street brand. BTW, this vendor in question is for a marketing ebook and so it's no great surprise that the guy behind it is pushing other products. Does the OP actually believe in this product or is it simply all about it being a hot seller? I'd avoid it like the plague.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheNightOwl
    I'll cross-promote threads in both directions, eh?

    Read this thread, too.

    @CDarklock (or, indeed, anyone who knows how to do this stuff! )...

    I'd really like to know how to catch:

    (a) a ClickBank hoplink and store it as a custom variable in my autoresponder database (using a hidden field in the form) and then add it using the {!custom} variable.

    It's the catching bit that's beyond me. Once it's stored as a custom field, then adding it to each email is easy. But I don't know how to catch it and get it to populate the hidden field in the first place.

    (b) any variable in a post url string
    (e.g. hxxp:blah-blah-blah.com?id=123&prod=abc&line=7)

    How would I catch any or all of the bits I've bolded?

    Gene gives an example in the other thread I've linked to and I understood the principle, but I don't know how to actually do the technical bit.

    If anyone could lay it out here for us vendors who want to make sure we're doing the right thing by our affiliates, that'd be great!

    Thanks so much,
    TheNightOwl
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by TheNightOwl View Post

      I'll cross-promote threads in both directions, eh?

      Read this thread, too.
      Yes, that's it exactly!

      I'd really like to know how to catch:

      (a) a ClickBank hoplink

      [...]

      (b) any variable in a post url string
      (e.g. hxxp:blah-blah-blah.com?id=123&prod=abc&line=7)
      Okay, so you see the part where he has $_COOKIE['aff'] right?

      Every variable in your URL comes in this format: "name=value" - and it's in the URL, so it's stored in PHP's $_GET array. So if you want just the "prod" value out of the URL you gave as the example, you would use $_GET['prod'] instead of $_COOKIE['aff'] in your form.

      A ClickBank hoplink carries the affiliate ID in the "hop" variable. They come to your page like this: hxxp:blah-blah-blah.com?hop=affiliate - so you use $_GET['hop'] in your form.

      That help?
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author netkickstart
    You could $_GET[] them using PHP.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
    Here's a solution.

    If you don't like the fact that the vendor will eventually promote other
    products with the leads you sent them, don't promote their stuff in
    the first place.

    It happens all the time. It's been happening before I got started and
    it will continue to happen long after this thread walks off into the
    sunset.

    I don't know if anyone else in this thread that does it actually admitted it
    here, but I do it and I'm not ashamed of it either

    All the best,
    Jason
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    "Human thoughts have the tendency to transform themselves into their physical equivalent." Earl Nightingale

    Super Affiliates Hang Out Here

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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

      Here's a solution.

      If you don't like the fact that the vendor will eventually promote other
      products with the leads you sent them, don't promote their stuff in
      the first place.

      It happens all the time. It's been happening before I got started and
      it will continue to happen long after this thread walks off into the
      sunset.

      I don't know if anyone else in this thread that does it actually admitted it
      here, but I do it and I'm not ashamed of it either

      All the best,
      Jason

      Jason, as I said in my post, I promote the main product that people sign
      up to my lists for, but I also promote other products.

      One thing I should point out though, these are NOT competing products.

      In other words, buying one should not in any way prevent a person
      from buying the main product as I have products in various sub niches
      of MMO such as copywriting, article writing, traffic generation, product
      creation, affiliate marketing and so on. So just because I promote another
      product should have no effect on the main product being pitched. If
      anything, in many cases, the additional products probably have no appeal
      to the prospect because they are so far removed from what they signed
      up for.

      In other words, if the main product is one on affiliate marketing, I will never
      promote another product about affiliate marketing unless it is months
      after they signed up for the list and is either a product I created myself
      or one created by another marketer who I really trust. And in 6 plus years
      that has happened ONE time when I promoted Dean Shainin's book on
      article marketing. And even at that, my own article marketing book doesn't
      even have an opt in OR an affiliate program, so there was no harm done.

      Anyway, in my case, it doesn't matter anyway as I got like 2 or 3
      affiliates and they don't seem to mind the way I run my business.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        One thing I should point out though, these are NOT competing products.
        That depends on how you define "competing." It may not be the case that a customer who wants one product will not want the other, but it is certainly the case that he has a limited amount of money... and if he spends that money on one product, he can't spend it on the other.

        What bothers me about this conversation is that certain affiliates seem to think they should get paid for a prospect whether he buys or not. There's a way to do this; it's called CPA. It pays a lot less than affiliate marketing, but if you want to get paid no matter what your prospect does, that's how you do it.

        When you send a customer to your vendor as an affiliate, you have signed up to be paid if he buys this product and buys it right now. If he doesn't buy that product, or doesn't buy right now, you don't get paid. That's the way it works. If you don't like that, find vendors who offer a different deal.
        Signature
        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          What bothers me about this conversation is that certain affiliates seem to think they should get paid for a prospect whether he buys or not.
          The conversation seems that way because that is the way that you have addressed it. Early on, the concerns were for the merchants that were collecting opt-ins and then pitching totally unrelated products or not including the affiliate cookie in emails when promoting the original product. This actually happens quite often in the ClickBank Marketplace.

          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          There's a way to do this; it's called CPA. It pays a lot less than affiliate marketing,
          I think there are a lot of people that would disagree with that statement.
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          • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
            Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

            The conversation seems that way because that is the way that you have addressed it. Early on, the concerns were for the merchants that were collecting opt-ins and then pitching totally unrelated products or not including the affiliate cookie in emails when promoting the original product. This actually happens quite often in the ClickBank Marketplace.



            I think there are a lot of people that would disagree with that statement.
            ^^ BINGO!... x3 .. I suppose someone had to clear up the confusion, eh Jeremy?

            Some people jumped into this thread, twisting it into an argument that THEY wanted, they weren't listening/reading....they were simply waiting for their chance to speak... about something totally irrelevant to what the OP was talkin about...

            The whole "It's my list I will promote to it crap" wasn't raised by the OP.. the issue was promoting an alternative product..SO soon after the lead was gathered.

            Like I said earlier, I personally don't wanna get into the "right and wrong" of said tactics.. but let's at least try to address the topics without agenda.

            Peace

            Jay
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            • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
              Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

              ^^ BINGO!... x3 .. I suppose someone had to clear up the confusion, eh Jeremy?
              I try to do my part
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              • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
                So am I understanding this right?

                There are actually marketers here complaining that other marketers are marketing?

                Pardon me, but I think I'll get back to the real world.

                Martin
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                • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                  Originally Posted by Martin.Avis View Post

                  So am I understanding this right?

                  There are actually marketers here complaining that other marketers are marketing?

                  Pardon me, but I think I'll get back to the real world.

                  Martin
                  Why is that everyones argument?

                  Martin, please tell me how this is marketing:

                  - Merchant puts product up on clickbank
                  - Affiliate drives traffic
                  - Merchant collects email address

                  EVERYTHING IS GOOD TIL THIS POINT

                  - Merchant overwrites cookie or does not include it at all in follow up emails

                  - Merchant doesn't even attempt to sell his product - Instead in the first email pitches someone elses product

                  Are there really people here that think this is marketing and not deceitful?

                  The merchant has an obligation if only a moral one to keep the affiliates cookie intact and to at the very least TRY TO SELL HIS OWN PRODUCT. After all, that is the benefit that the clickbank merchants give for including an opt-in form on their sales pages when asked by affiliates. If not, I suggest that they simply explain it like this:

                  Dear affiliate,

                  Please send me all your traffic so that I can add your visitors to my list by offering them a freebie that is obviously better than my piece of crap product. At this time, I will over-write or simply not include your cookie for any period of time so that I can collect all the money. In addition, there is a big chance that I won't even try to sell them the product that you were preselling for - Instead, I will try to sell them super secret gurus new $997 home study course so that I can bank 75%.

                  Will one of the real "marketers" please tell me how that is right?
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                  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                    Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                    Why is that everyones argument?

                    Martin, please tell me how this is marketing:

                    - Merchant puts product up on clickbank
                    - Affiliate drives traffic
                    - Merchant collects email address

                    EVERYTHING IS GOOD TIL THIS POINT

                    - Merchant overwrites cookie or does not include it at all in follow up emails

                    - Merchant doesn't even attempt to sell his product - Instead in the first email pitches someone elses product

                    Are there really people here that think this is marketing and not deceitful?

                    The merchant has an obligation if only a moral one to keep the affiliates cookie intact and to at the very least TRY TO SELL HIS OWN PRODUCT. After all, that is the benefit that the clickbank merchants give for including an opt-in form on their sales pages when asked by affiliates. If not, I suggest that they simply explain it like this:

                    Dear affiliate,

                    Please send me all your traffic so that I can add your visitors to my list by offering them a freebie that is obviously better than my piece of crap product. At this time, I will over-write or simply not include your cookie for any period of time so that I can collect all the money. In addition, there is a big chance that I won't even try to sell them the product that you were preselling for - Instead, I will try to sell them super secret gurus new $997 home study course so that I can bank 75%.

                    Will one of the real "marketers" please tell me how that is right?

                    It isn't Jeremy. This scenario is absolutely 100% wrong.

                    But I wonder how many marketers worth their salt really do this?

                    If I'm wrong and it's more than I realize, then I really do need to kiss
                    this business goodbye because I don't want to be associated with this
                    kind of crap.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                      It isn't Jeremy. This scenario is absolutely 100% wrong.

                      But I wonder how many marketers worth their salt really do this?

                      If I'm wrong and it's more than I realize, then I really do need to kiss
                      this business goodbye because I don't want to be associated with this
                      kind of crap.

                      Steve, there are enough people on clickbank in both the IM and non IM niche that don't at the very least include your affiliate ID even in the first email that is sent to say "there are plenty of vendors that do this".
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                  • Profile picture of the author Ram
                    Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                    Why is that everyones argument?

                    Martin, please tell me how this is marketing:

                    - Merchant puts product up on clickbank
                    - Affiliate drives traffic
                    - Merchant collects email address

                    EVERYTHING IS GOOD TIL THIS POINT

                    - Merchant overwrites cookie or does not include it at all in follow up emails

                    - Merchant doesn't even attempt to sell his product - Instead in the first email pitches someone elses product

                    Are there really people here that think this is marketing and not deceitful?

                    The merchant has an obligation if only a moral one to keep the affiliates cookie intact and to at the very least TRY TO SELL HIS OWN PRODUCT. After all, that is the benefit that the clickbank merchants give for including an opt-in form on their sales pages when asked by affiliates. If not, I suggest that they simply explain it like this:

                    Dear affiliate,

                    Please send me all your traffic so that I can add your visitors to my list by offering them a freebie that is obviously better than my piece of crap product. At this time, I will over-write or simply not include your cookie for any period of time so that I can collect all the money. In addition, there is a big chance that I won't even try to sell them the product that you were preselling for - Instead, I will try to sell them super secret gurus new $997 home study course so that I can bank 75%.

                    Will one of the real "marketers" please tell me how that is right?
                    Actually, that was not the OP's complaint - or if so not clearly.

                    Ok, so I am promoting the CB code through Clickbank on my website and I personally have opted into the newsletter too through my own link just to see what kind of emails they are sending out.

                    Today, Saturday August 1st, I got another email from CB code and I was shocked to see that this person, when he needs to sell his own product, is selling another item on clickbank to his list ( From leads that we all generated for him) and what is shocking is that all the leads that we affiliates have generated for him, he is using it to promote other stuff from our own leads.

                    This is plain wrong and I am shocked to see this.

                    I will no longer promote this offer on my website. This is THEFT
                    And more from the OP later in the thread

                    When you promote something and the leads that you generate from your own HOP link on clickbank for any item, the emails that the company is sending out should promote their product.

                    This guy is taking the leads that we generated for him, and promoting other products on clickbank with his OWN HOP link.

                    That is just plain wrong.

                    I don't see a mention of overriding cookies. I don't see anything about a freebie being better than the product.

                    All I see is bitching about a vendor using leads affiliates generated to sell other products when he "should be" selling his own product.

                    "Should be" doing? According to whom? Just how initial product many emails are required? What is the time limit before a vendor can pitch another product and who decided it? Is this is in some IM Rule Book? If so, who wrote it?

                    Sorry, I didn't read that book. When someone opts into my list, I'll decide what to sell and when to sell. You can do the same with your lists.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Jamie Lewis
                      Originally Posted by Ram View Post

                      Sorry, I didn't read that book. When someone opts into my list, I'll decide what to sell and when to sell. You can do the same with your lists.
                      And it should be the affiliates' responsibility to test conversion and refunds.

                      Those should be the only issues at hand.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                      Originally Posted by Ram View Post

                      Actually, that was not the OP's complaint - or if so not clearly.




                      I don't see a mention of overriding cookies. I don't see anything about a freebie being better than the product.

                      All I see is bitching about a vendor using leads affiliates generated to sell other products when he "should be" selling his own product.

                      "Should be" doing? According to whom? Just how initial product many emails are required? What is the time limit before a vendor can pitch another product and who decided it? Is this is in some IM Rule Book? If so, who wrote it?

                      Sorry, I didn't read that book. When someone opts into my list, I'll decide what to sell and when to sell. You can do the same with your lists.
                      If that is what you got out of this whole thread, you have an issue with comprehension.

                      I'm not trying to be an ass, but these are the concerns that have been brought up in the thread that some see issue with and others see as good marketing.

                      1. Overwriting affiliate cookies from the first email
                      2. Getting opt-in and promoting a completely different product right off the bat.

                      Sure enough, it is your list and it is your right to promote what you want and how you want to them as it is mine with my own list, but...

                      If an affiliate emails you and says "why do you have an opt-in form on your sales page with a freebie that looks to be better than your product" What is your response going to be?

                      I can quote the almost cookie cutter response I got a year ago when I was pretty new into this...

                      "We do that to give us more chances to sell the visitor our product which gives you more opportunity and a better chance at earning a commission"

                      Not

                      "Screw you, mind your own business, it's my list and I'll do whatever the hell I want. Send me all your traffic"
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                      • Profile picture of the author Ram
                        Comprehension?

                        Sorry, you seem to think all replies must follow the direction you want the thread to go.

                        I was addressing the original complaint.

                        There are a lot of twist in the this thread. I don't have to address them all. I can pick and choose which posts I want to reply to and what points I wish to make.

                        Anyway, to answer your question, I don't jave freebies that look better than the product on a sales page, but I do have an opt-in on every sales page. Actually, on every page period. My reply will be that i am using the product as a lead generation tool and that's why I am paying a commission.

                        Simple. Honest.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                          Originally Posted by Ram View Post

                          Comprehension?

                          Sorry, you seem to think all replies must follow the direction you want the thread to go.

                          I was addressing the original complaint.

                          There are a lot of twist in the this thread. I don't have to address them all. I can pick and choose which posts I want to reply to and what points I wish to make.

                          Anyway, to answer your question, I don't jave freebies that look better than the product on a sales page, but I do have an opt-in on every sales page. Actually, on every page period. My reply will be that i am using the product as a lead generation tool and that's why I am paying a commission.

                          Simple. Honest.
                          Fair enough
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
                    I'm confused Jeremy

                    If I have several affiliates who have all driven traffic to my page, who's affiliate ID should I use if I try and sell the people who signed up to my list my product. Surely the fault is that of the person who ensures their computer is kept cookie clean

                    And no I certainly wouldn't condone sending out a follow up email with a competive product. What I would do is send out a follow up email with the web address of my product to entice them to buy and "assume" the relevant cookie of whoever sent a particular person to my site is still there.

                    I can't see how I can take the responsibilty of ensuring a particular person's ID is intact or am I missing something in this thread

                    Regards
                    Kim


                    Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                    Why is that everyones argument?

                    Martin, please tell me how this is marketing:

                    - Merchant puts product up on clickbank
                    - Affiliate drives traffic
                    - Merchant collects email address

                    EVERYTHING IS GOOD TIL THIS POINT

                    - Merchant overwrites cookie or does not include it at all in follow up emails

                    - Merchant doesn't even attempt to sell his product - Instead in the first email pitches someone elses product

                    Are there really people here that think this is marketing and not deceitful?

                    The merchant has an obligation if only a moral one to keep the affiliates cookie intact and to at the very least TRY TO SELL HIS OWN PRODUCT. After all, that is the benefit that the clickbank merchants give for including an opt-in form on their sales pages when asked by affiliates. If not, I suggest that they simply explain it like this:

                    Dear affiliate,

                    Please send me all your traffic so that I can add your visitors to my list by offering them a freebie that is obviously better than my piece of crap product. At this time, I will over-write or simply not include your cookie for any period of time so that I can collect all the money. In addition, there is a big chance that I won't even try to sell them the product that you were preselling for - Instead, I will try to sell them super secret gurus new $997 home study course so that I can bank 75%.

                    Will one of the real "marketers" please tell me how that is right?
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                    • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
                      Originally Posted by Kim Standerline View Post

                      I'm confused Jeremy

                      If I have several affiliates who have all driven traffic to my page, who's affiliate ID should I use if I try and sell the people who signed up to my list my product.

                      Regards
                      Kim
                      Kim,

                      If you sell through ClickBank, the last affiliate in is the one who is cookied. The vendor doesn't have to worry about anything - just send the follow up emails with a plain vanilla link to the sales page. ClickBank will then associate the customer to the correct affiliate by means of the cookie on their computer (or perhaps by IP as well, although how CB use and track IPs is murkier water).

                      Other affiliate programs would work differently - and those that use the first past the post system (which I personally dislike, but that's a whole other issue and not for this thread), have a whole different set of dynamics.

                      Martin
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                      • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
                        That's what I thought Martin, it's why I'm a bit confused about several aspects of this thread.

                        I'm not sure how the OP etc expects a mail to a list to go out with their aff ID embedded when there may be several affiliates (or more) involved.

                        Obviously different if the vendor cheats and sends their own hoplink out and yes that is pretty nasty

                        Kim

                        Originally Posted by Martin.Avis View Post

                        Kim,

                        If you sell through ClickBank, the last affiliate in is the one who is cookied. The vendor doesn't have to worry about anything - just send the follow up emails with a plain vanilla link to the sales page. ClickBank will then associate the customer to the correct affiliate by means of the cookie on their computer (or perhaps by IP as well, although how CB use and track IPs is murkier water).

                        Other affiliate programs would work differently - and those that use the first past the post system (which I personally dislike, but that's a whole other issue and not for this thread), have a whole different set of dynamics.

                        Martin
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                  • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
                    Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                    Why is that everyones argument?

                    Martin, please tell me how this is marketing:

                    - Merchant puts product up on clickbank
                    - Affiliate drives traffic
                    - Merchant collects email address

                    EVERYTHING IS GOOD TIL THIS POINT

                    - Merchant overwrites cookie or does not include it at all in follow up emails

                    - Merchant doesn't even attempt to sell his product - Instead in the first email pitches someone elses product

                    Are there really people here that think this is marketing and not deceitful?

                    The merchant has an obligation if only a moral one to keep the affiliates cookie intact and to at the very least TRY TO SELL HIS OWN PRODUCT. After all, that is the benefit that the clickbank merchants give for including an opt-in form on their sales pages when asked by affiliates. If not, I suggest that they simply explain it like this:

                    Dear affiliate,

                    Please send me all your traffic so that I can add your visitors to my list by offering them a freebie that is obviously better than my piece of crap product. At this time, I will over-write or simply not include your cookie for any period of time so that I can collect all the money. In addition, there is a big chance that I won't even try to sell them the product that you were preselling for - Instead, I will try to sell them super secret gurus new $997 home study course so that I can bank 75%.

                    Will one of the real "marketers" please tell me how that is right?

                    Ok, I'm going to ask a 'stupid question' now.

                    I'm a clickbank merchant, and when I do the followup emails, I use my actual domain name instead of some wierd clickbank hoplink.

                    If you send me an affiliate referral, and they opt into my list, if they click on my domain name link, will that override your cookie, and deny you an affiliate comission?

                    The reason I'm asking, is that seems to be what you're implying. If this is true, this could be a major reason for declining affiliate revene, and it's something clickbank needs to fix asap!
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                    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                      Floyd, I really don't know if that would over ride the cookie or not...

                      Don and I signed up for a bunch of newsletters on clickbank about a month and a half ago, maybe longer, because we were testing some stuff. We were kind of shocked by the number of instances where our cookie wasn't being passed even from the first email.

                      This honestly isn't new though. This same conversation was had here on the forum more than 6 months ago...With a whole different group of thread participants lol
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            • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
              Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

              ^^ BINGO!... x3 .. I suppose someone had to clear up the confusion, eh Jeremy?

              Some people jumped into this thread, twisting it into an argument that THEY wanted, they weren't listening/reading....they were simply waiting for their chance to speak... about something totally irrelevant to what the OP was talkin about...

              The whole "It's my list I will promote to it crap" wasn't raised by the OP.. the issue was promoting an alternative product..SO soon after the lead was gathered.

              Like I said earlier, I personally don't wanna get into the "right and wrong" of said tactics.. but let's at least try to address the topics without agenda.

              Peace

              Jay
              He got it 8 weeks after he subscribed.

              Would you call that 'too soon' considering no one he referred was going to buy the original product if they haven't bought by now?
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              • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher View Post

                He got it 8 weeks after he subscribed.

                Would you call that 'too soon' considering no one he referred was going to buy the original product if they haven't bought by now?
                No, I wouldn't even consider 2 weeks too soon. As an affiliate, I just want an honest effort made on the merchants part to sell the person that I drove to his site and he added to his list. If they don't buy, they don't buy.
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                • Profile picture of the author Jamie Lewis
                  Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                  People, myself included are saying that vendors don't have the right to strip affiliates links out after they spend their time and energy sending visitors to their sales page.
                  I think this would fall into the category of a vendor putting his hoplink on the order button, not the list..

                  But do you really encounter vendors that send out a follow up promoting their own product with their hoplink? They will sink to the bottom of the ocean like that.

                  A vendor keeping your cookie will increase conversion & gravity getting them more affiliates. Most vendor know this, for the simple fact that you might get more per sale "overwriting" it but the reward is much greater otherwise since the CB model at the end of the day is Affiliate driven afterall.
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

            Early on, the concerns were for the merchants that were collecting opt-ins and then pitching totally unrelated products or not including the affiliate cookie in emails when promoting the original product.
            Let me make sure this is clear.

            You, the affiliate, sent a prospect to the vendor's site.

            The prospect did not buy anything, so you did not get a commission.

            The vendor opens a dialogue with that prospect, and says "hey, would you like this instead?" - and the prospect says "well, actually, YES" and buys it.

            And now you expect a commission.

            What if it was two affiliates? Joe didn't convince the prospect to buy, but Bob did. Does Joe deserve any commission?
            Signature
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            • Profile picture of the author psresearch
              Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

              Let me make sure this is clear.

              You, the affiliate, sent a prospect to the vendor's site.

              The prospect did not buy anything, so you did not get a commission.

              The vendor opens a dialogue with that prospect, and says "hey, would you like this instead?" - and the prospect says "well, actually, YES" and buys it.

              And now you expect a commission.

              What if it was two affiliates? Joe didn't convince the prospect to buy, but Bob did. Does Joe deserve any commission?
              I'm not sure if that's what Jeremy was saying.

              Personally, I wouldn't "expect" that. But when an affiliate program "offers" it to me, you better believe I'm going to test sending traffic there and if it's making more money then I will send almost ALL my traffic for that type of product there (and leave a % to test other offers).

              Wouldn't you?

              And the two affiliate example is a red-herring if you using a last-cookie wins affiliate system.
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              • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                Originally Posted by markquinn View Post

                And the two affiliate example is a red-herring if you using a last-cookie wins affiliate system.
                The two-affiliate example is intended to demonstrate that if YOU do not convince the prospect to buy, the commission goes to whomever DOES convince the prospect to buy - not to you. This is precisely how it is supposed to work, and nobody complains.

                So why complain if the second affiliate is also the vendor?
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                "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                • Profile picture of the author psresearch
                  Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                  The two-affiliate example is intended to demonstrate that if YOU do not convince the prospect to buy, the commission goes to whomever DOES convince the prospect to buy - not to you. This is precisely how it is supposed to work, and nobody complains.

                  So why complain if the second affiliate is also the vendor?
                  I never said I was "complaining". I said if I was "offered" a better deal (such as Marlon Sander's affilaite program) - I would test it and if possibly take it.

                  Where did you read that I was "complaining"?

                  Note: Here's Marlon's program (NOT an affiliate link):

                  GetYourProfits.com

                  As Jonathan Mizel said years ago - The vendor with the highest visitor value can own all the traffic they want.
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            • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
              Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

              Let me make sure this is clear.

              You, the affiliate, sent a prospect to the vendor's site.

              The prospect did not buy anything, so you did not get a commission.

              The vendor opens a dialogue with that prospect, and says "hey, would you like this instead?" - and the prospect says "well, actually, YES" and buys it.

              And now you expect a commission.

              What if it was two affiliates? Joe didn't convince the prospect to buy, but Bob did. Does Joe deserve any commission?
              This is as clear as I can make it...

              Lets assume you are the vendor and you are promoting Product X

              Me, as the affiliate send John Doe to your site either through my email marketing efforts, PPC, or organic traffic.

              John Doe gets to your site and you have that shiny opt-in box with a decent freebie. John Doe says, Damn Right! Let me grab that freebie real
              quick and if it's any good, I'm going to buy this product.

              John Doe opts-in and confirms his subscription to your list then downloads the free report.

              All's good to this point, agreed?

              You send John Doe a follow up email right away with YOUR HOPLINK instead of mine - I'm pissed off

              You send John Doe a follow up email right away with MY HOPLINK - I'm happy

              You send John Doe a series of emails over a one or 2 week period trying to sell him your product with HOPLINK intact - I'm happy

              As soon as John Doe opts-in you don't even try to sell him your product and instead opt to sell him Guru X's super duper home study course for re $997 - I'm pissed off

              I get where you are coming from with it being "your list" and you have the freedom to market to that list the way you want - Trust me, I get it! I have a list too

              What I don't agree with is the fact that obviously the vendors KNOW that a list is important so, in many cases while it is obvious that they have a great sales page and they would love to get a sale, that they put an opt-in form right in front of the visitors face - which is smart. This gives you the ability to not only sell them this product, but other products as well. Again, I GET IT. I do it too.

              However, when affiliates spend their time, creativity, money, and energy to send traffic to your site because they are under the impression that you are "working together" in at least a very vague sense of the phrase, they are entitled to be rewarded for their efforts.

              The reward comes in the effort on the VENDORS PART - After all, the affiliate has done their job and sent the traffic to the assigned page.

              The affiliate is entitled to have their HOPLINK left in-tact in the series of follow up emails for THAT PARTICULAR PRODUCT.

              The affiliate is reasonable in expecting that you as the vendor will at the very least make an attempt to sell them the product in question and not immediately abandon ship because you have something shinier that you would rather sell right off the bat.

              Yes, it is YOUR LIST, but how many less subscribers would vendors have if affiliates were not driving traffic? Affiliates are entitled to a fair shake and not some of the shady **** that vendors have been pulling lately.
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              • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
                Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                This is as clear as I can make it...


                You send John Doe a follow up email right away with YOUR HOPLINK instead of mine - I'm pissed off
                This seems to be the heart of the complaint - although it is not what the OP originally asked about.

                Perhaps I see paranoia where you see a problem because in 8 years of making my living promoting other people's products through ClickBank I have never knowingly had this happen to me.

                Of course, I don't promote any old crap - I try to recommend top class products that are generally from people I know, or know of.

                I am very happy when vendors collect names and follow up with them later - that invariably results in more sales for me. As I said, if there is a problem with some vendors using their own affiliate link to overwrite the affiliate's cookie, then it is one I haven't personally encountered. If I did, however, it would annoy me too - and make me dubious about promoting that vendor again.

                As to the vendor promoting other products to the people I've sent him, I have no problem with that at all. That's just marketing. I happen to think that I have a better relationship with my people than he is likely to build in the short term, so I won't lose any business (or sleep) over it.

                This thread has gone wildly off track. The original question of whether a vendor has the right to promote other products to people you've sent him seemed to me to be extraordinarily naive. The extended question of whether that vendor should be able to overwrite cookies for the initial product may be valid, but if you swim in the right waters, is hardly commonplace.

                If you swim with sharks, however, don't complain if they eat you for dinner.

                Martin
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              • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                You send John Doe a follow up email right away with YOUR HOPLINK instead of mine - I'm pissed off

                You send John Doe a follow up email right away with MY HOPLINK - I'm happy

                You send John Doe a series of emails over a one or 2 week period trying to sell him your product with HOPLINK intact - I'm happy

                As soon as John Doe opts-in you don't even try to sell him your product and instead opt to sell him Guru X's super duper home study course for re $997 - I'm pissed off
                So, in other words, when you send me a prospect... I'm not allowed to sell him anything at all unless you get a commission.

                I can't sell him my product or anyone else's, now or later, unless you've gotten your commission. Because the only thing that makes you happy is getting your commission. You are not happy with any scenario where you don't have your hoplink intact.

                I don't find this to be an equitable arrangement. I think an affiliate has a very clearly defined job: to send me a prospect who will buy this product now.

                You've got him filling out a form, waiting for his confirmation, confirming, grabbing a freebie, and getting the first mail from the list before he buys.

                Well, that's not a properly pre-sold prospect! You didn't do your damn job! That prospect should show up on my page red-hot and burning a path straight to the "buy now" button so he can give me money.

                If he doesn't, then your commission is already at risk and you should be perfectly prepared to lose it - and it's your fault, not mine. I didn't have anything to do with that prospect's state of mind when he showed up. It was your doing.

                And if I save the sale with a well-written email, it's not your sale anymore - any more than it would be if he decided to think a little bit, ran a search for "that-clickbank-product scam," and ended up on another affiliate's page promoting the same product.

                That affiliate gets the commission. You don't. Even if the page sucks and it was really your work that made him want the product. (And honestly, a sales page with an opt-in form on it sucks. A sales page has one and only one button on it, and it says "BUY NOW" - full stop.) It may not be fair that an affiliate with a crappy sales page got the commission, but that's how the game is played, and if you don't like it... don't play.

                If you want to get paid for a click, that's a PPC ad. It doesn't pay a full commission. If you want to get paid for an opt-in, that's a CPA ad. It doesn't pay a full commission, either. If you want a full commission, your prospect needs to turn into my customer now, before anyone else does anything.
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                "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                  I can't explain it to you any better because you try to twist it the way that you want it to be...

                  I said RIGHT AWAY. As in get an opt-in say screw selling your own product and sell something else.

                  Please tell me which products are yours so that I can stay far away from ever sending you any traffic.
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                  • Profile picture of the author psresearch
                    Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                    I can't explain it to you any better because you try to twist it the way that you want it to be...

                    I said RIGHT AWAY. As in get an opt-in say screw selling your own product and sell something else.

                    Please tell me which products are yours so that I can stay far away from ever sending you any traffic.
                    I actually think that's a great use of threads like this. Seriously.
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                • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
                  @ CDarklock...

                  I like you... and agree with much of what you have said in this thread and others....

                  But


                  Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                  So, in other words, when you send me a prospect... I'm not allowed to sell him anything at all unless you get a commission.
                  No...... that's not at ALL what we are saying, you WANT us to be saying that so you can justify your argument. If you read the thread properly, you will see that we aren't saying that at all.

                  I can't sell him my product or anyone else's, now or later, unless you've gotten your commission. Because the only thing that makes you happy is getting your commission. You are not happy with any scenario where you don't have your hoplink intact.
                  Again, you are only saying what you wanted to hear from us. None of us said that.. we simply stated that as an affiliate, the affiliate is well within his right to expect a conscious effort by the merchant to promote the initial product without any attempt to over-write the cookie or de-rail the prospect journey.. so soon after initial contact.

                  If the merchant LATER decides he is pushing another product, then so be it. But to promote an alternative product right away.. is a bit naughty, imho.

                  I don't find this to be an equitable arrangement. I think an affiliate has a very clearly defined job: to send me a prospect who will buy this product now.
                  Agreed...

                  But, most people understand that sending an affiliate to a page with a tasty freebie opt-in will result in the prospect opting for the freebie first, so an effort on the part of the vendor to promote the initial product on offer is a reasonable expectation.

                  I already gave my views on pre-selling.. and whilst I think it is a VITALLY important part of the affiliate in this scenario, a mouth-watering freebie could crunch that in a nano-second... this relationship (vendor-affiliate) needs to be two-way traffic for it to prosper in the long term.

                  You've got him filling out a form, waiting for his confirmation, confirming, grabbing a freebie, and getting the first mail from the list before he buys.
                  No.. I haven't.... I've told him to go there to buy the product... You hi-jacked that with the freebie offerings.., which is cool, but at least make an effort to help this process to continue in the right direction (leading to an affiliate generated sale), instead of re-routing that prospect to a different offer in such a short time after I generated that lead for you.

                  Well, that's not a properly pre-sold prospect!
                  Ummm.. Yes,it is....

                  You didn't do your damn job!
                  Ummm.. Yes, I did..

                  That prospect should show up on my page red-hot and burning a path straight to the "buy now" button so he can give me money.
                  You do understand the concept of pre-selling.. don't you?. This is not sales copy we're talking about. That comes afterwards, you know, the bit in this scenario that is leading the prospect to the freebie as opposed to the actual affiliate generated sale.

                  If he doesn't, then your commission is already at risk and you should be perfectly prepared to lose it - and it's your fault, not mine. I didn't have anything to do with that prospect's state of mind when he showed up. It was your doing.
                  You're right... you didn't have ANYTHING to do with that prospect's state of mind when he showed up, but you certainly have the ability to change his mind in a flash with compelling copy. I'm pre-selling... you're the one doing the mind magic, and in this scenario, you're destroying any effort I have made for you by getting him to opt-in to your tantalising freebie and then jacking him on another product...

                  And if I save the sale with a well-written email, it's not your sale anymore - any more than it would be if he decided to think a little bit, ran a search for "that-clickbank-product scam," and ended up on another affiliate's page promoting the same product.
                  LMFAO.. "save the sale with a well written email" - get over yourself man, a simple case of repeat exposure to the benefits of the product is good enough in 90% of cases... you're not saving the sale, you're putting it back onto the track it was intended for before you hi-jacked it with a freebie.

                  Like I said..

                  I have personally made thousands of dollars promoting offers that also have an opt-in on the page. I believe in the strong pre-sell to do my work for me...

                  But I can also appreciate that if a vendor is going to rubbish the vendor-affiliate relationship with a bit of bait and switch, so early after the affair.... then he deserves to take his lumps like a man!

                  Peace to ya

                  Jay
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                  Bare Murkage.........

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                  • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                    Jay, where have you been?

                    You just broke that down in the exact way that I have been trying to and obviously failed lol
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                    • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
                      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                      Jay, where have you been?
                      Business calls, man... the missus needed new shoes

                      You just broke that down in the exact way that I have been trying to and obviously failed lol


                      Peace

                      Jay
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                      Bare Murkage.........

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                    • Profile picture of the author mrjonman
                      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                      Jay, where have you been?

                      You just broke that down in the exact way that I have been trying to and obviously failed lol
                      Hi Jeremy,

                      I think you're getting through allright ... of course I'm biased. I agree with everything you're saying.

                      I'm the Affiliate Manager for Michael Brown's TheProfitHQ.com where we have Lifetime Commissions for all of our Internet Marketing niche of products.

                      Our affiliates are extremely important to us - we truly realize that their success is our success too. We profit when they do and we're aware of that.

                      A happy affiliate is an affiliate that's gonna work even harder to promote our "stuff" ... and of course the Lifetime Commissions make 'em happy too.

                      Just my $0.025

                      John "The Hamster Exterminator" Mann
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                      Get Over 50% Off! A Brand-New Course by Michael Brown Called Niche60 About Making Money As An Affiliate Marketer. And It Really Works!

                      Get This $99 Product For ONLY $49.00 If You Act Now! Click Here Today And Save $50.00!
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                    • Profile picture of the author Robyn8243
                      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                      Jay, where have you been?

                      You just broke that down in the exact way that I have been trying to and obviously failed lol
                      Jeremy:

                      I think you did a great job of breaking it down yourself in a clear, concise and
                      fair manner.

                      While I thought Jay did a great job of dissecting things down even further, I doubt it
                      will make any impact on those who want to justify their position that merchants have no obligation at all to close sales of their own products for their affiliates.

                      The arguments are so ridiculous that it is hard to even formulate a response without
                      coming across sounding equally ridiculous.

                      Fortunately, there are plenty of merchants out there who actually believe in doing what they can to make their affiliates successful as well as themselves.

                      Robyn
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                      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                        For merchants who actually want to increase conversion rates and make
                        their affiliates happy (the rest of you can stop reading now) here are some
                        suggestions.

                        1. Assuming you're providing some free report as an incentive for building
                        the list, include one that also explains the benefits of the product (such
                        as Brad Callen's SEO report) so that people will want to buy it.

                        2. Follow up with a minimum of 7 messages in your AR series. Studies have
                        shown that it takes people an average of 7 times seeing a sales page before
                        they make up their mind to buy.

                        3. The followup messages should give additional information but not so
                        much that there is no reason to buy the product. This is a problem that a
                        lot of list builders have and a big reason why sales are low.

                        4. When including your link, make it the main link to your sales page and
                        not an affiliate link. If the cookie was written correctly on the prospect's
                        PC to begin with, they will still be registered under the affiliate who sent
                        them to the site and should still get credit for the sale for up to 60 days
                        for a CB cookie.

                        5. Because the cookie only last for 60 days, make sure your 7 messages
                        get through to the prospect within that time frame. I like about 2
                        messages a week, but test your list for responsiveness.

                        6. If you want to give the product at a discount after a period of time,
                        but before the 60 days, just include a link to it that resolves to a second
                        payment link in your CB account. The way cookies are written, it doesn't
                        matter how many products you have listed there. Even if it's 6 or 7. Any
                        product the prospect buys will be credited to the affiliate who sent
                        them there. This is also great for OTOs and Upsells with CB where your
                        affiliate gets credit for those as well.

                        I have found that sometimes, by offering a discount after a time, I make
                        sales that I wouldn't have normally. The affiliate will be happy, even at
                        a lower commission because instead of getting no commission they're
                        getting something.

                        The few affiliates I have (and they can be counted one one hand)
                        appreciate the way I run my affiliate program. So far, I haven't had
                        any complaints.

                        As I said, for those of you who want to make your affiliates happy, the
                        above should do it.

                        For the rest of you, sorry for wasting your time.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Agung Prabowo
                          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                          For merchants who actually want to increase conversion rates and make
                          their affiliates happy (the rest of you can stop reading now) here are some
                          suggestions.

                          1. Assuming you're providing some free report as an incentive for building
                          the list, include one that also explains the benefits of the product (such
                          as Brad Callen's SEO report) so that people will want to buy it.

                          2. Follow up with a minimum of 7 messages in your AR series. Studies have
                          shown that it takes people an average of 7 times seeing a sales page before
                          they make up their mind to buy.

                          3. The followup messages should give additional information but not so
                          much that there is no reason to buy the product. This is a problem that a
                          lot of list builders have and a big reason why sales are low.

                          4. When including your link, make it the main link to your sales page and
                          not an affiliate link. If the cookie was written correctly on the prospect's
                          PC to begin with, they will still be registered under the affiliate who sent
                          them to the site and should still get credit for the sale for up to 60 days
                          for a CB cookie.

                          5. Because the cookie only last for 60 days, make sure your 7 messages
                          get through to the prospect within that time frame. I like about 2
                          messages a week, but test your list for responsiveness.

                          6. If you want to give the product at a discount after a period of time,
                          but before the 60 days, just include a link to it that resolves to a second
                          payment link in your CB account. The way cookies are written, it doesn't
                          matter how many products you have listed there. Even if it's 6 or 7. Any
                          product the prospect buys will be credited to the affiliate who sent
                          them there. This is also great for OTOs and Upsells with CB where your
                          affiliate gets credit for those as well.

                          I have found that sometimes, by offering a discount after a time, I make
                          sales that I wouldn't have normally. The affiliate will be happy, even at
                          a lower commission because instead of getting no commission they're
                          getting something.

                          The few affiliates I have (and they can be counted one one hand)
                          appreciate the way I run my affiliate program. So far, I haven't had
                          any complaints.

                          As I said, for those of you who want to make your affiliates happy, the
                          above should do it.

                          For the rest of you, sorry for wasting your time.
                          Great Post like usual i love your post, Jay and jeremy......
                          it's like i'm buying report at WSO

                          oh... got to go now!
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                        • Profile picture of the author psresearch
                          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                          As I said, for those of you who want to make your affiliates happy, the
                          above should do it.

                          For the rest of you, sorry for wasting your time.
                          LOL. Well put.
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                  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                    Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

                    No...... that's not at ALL what we are saying, you WANT us to be saying that so you can justify your argument. If you read the thread properly, you will see that we aren't saying that at all.
                    My argument is very simple.

                    As an affiliate for a product, you make money from sales that YOU drive to a close.

                    If the sale doesn't close, you don't get paid.

                    So if you can't drive the sale of a particular product, don't sell it.

                    But if you try to drive the sale and it doesn't work, just STFU about how someone else got in your way and cockblocked your sale. Nobody has any responsibility to make you a commission except you. If a vendor wants to make a little extra effort, fantastic; I'm all for that.

                    But you don't get to stomp around complaining that this or that vendor hasn't done enough to give you a commission. You don't get to puff up your chest and get all indignant about how the vendor sold something else instead. The vendor's job is not and has never been to give you a commission. It's your commission, and it's up to you to earn it. If some particular vendor makes it too hard for you, pick another one.
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                    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                      If some particular vendor makes it too hard for you, pick another one.
                      You know CD, I'm not 100% thrilled with your attitude but I will say this
                      much. You're right. Don't like the way a vendor runs his business in regard
                      to affiliates...pick another one.

                      At least I know one person whose products I won't be promoting.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                      My argument is very simple.

                      As an affiliate for a product, you make money from sales that YOU drive to a close.

                      If the sale doesn't close, you don't get paid.

                      So if you can't drive the sale of a particular product, don't sell it.

                      But if you try to drive the sale and it doesn't work, just STFU about how someone else got in your way and cockblocked your sale. Nobody has any responsibility to make you a commission except you. If a vendor wants to make a little extra effort, fantastic; I'm all for that.

                      But you don't get to stomp around complaining that this or that vendor hasn't done enough to give you a commission. You don't get to puff up your chest and get all indignant about how the vendor sold something else instead. The vendor's job is not and has never been to give you a commission. It's your commission, and it's up to you to earn it. If some particular vendor makes it too hard for you, pick another one.
                      Dude, you are awesome at distorting the issue. Rather than someone else post what is a reasonable post and then you reverting back to the same thing over and over again, answer these questions.

                      1. If an affiliate sends a lead to you for a product and you get them to opt-in, do you include the affiliates cookie for a few follow up emails?

                      2. Do you actively try to sell YOUR OWN product for a short period of time after the prospect opts-in?

                      Product owners are always bitching and complaining about getting affiliates blah blah blah. With the way some people treat them, I can understand why.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                        Dude, you are awesome at distorting the issue. Rather than someone else post what is a reasonable post and then you reverting back to the same thing over and over again, answer these questions.

                        1. If an affiliate sends a lead to you for a product and you get them to opt-in, do you include the affiliates cookie for a few follow up emails?

                        2. Do you actively try to sell YOUR OWN product for a short period of time after the prospect opts-in?

                        Product owners are always bitching and complaining about getting affiliates blah blah blah. With the way some people treat them, I can understand why.

                        Jeremy, people who usually take the contrary stand are the ones doing
                        the things that we're complaining about.

                        So the answer to your question should be quite obvious.

                        And you're right, no wonder it's so hard getting affiliates.

                        And the ironic part about this whole thing is that merchants and affiliates
                        need each other. And anybody who thinks differently is stark raving out
                        of their mind.

                        I must say, this has been one interesting thread.

                        A real birds eye view into what people you do and don't want to do
                        business with.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                          Steve,

                          What cracks me up is that the product owner obviously has the upper hand. Hell, most of the sales pages I see lately are designed to add to list first - Sell second

                          Regardless of the pre-sell, when that box pops up and offers the freebie, it's pretty safe to assume that a majority are going to opt-in lol

                          So, I don't get where the "if you can't sell then you don't get a sale" attitude comes. For product owners that roll like that, give your affiliates an alternate landing page with no opt-in. If the page is really there to sell, then no opt-in needed right? When the sale is made, you will have their info anyway, right?

                          I've actually sent this list to my subscribers just so that they can see both sides and know what to look out for when looking for products to promote. Hopefully, they will pay attention.

                          For me personally, it doesn't make a difference really. I'm not an affiliate for these types of products. Over the past year, I think I've actively promoted 2 MMO products and they were both from people that I have both trust and respect for so, it was all good. I didn't have to worry about any of this "trickery" that is obviously acceptable to some.
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                        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                          Jeremy, people who usually take the contrary stand are the ones doing the things that we're complaining about.
                          Or, then again, maybe we understand free market economics.

                          What happens to a vendor who hijacks affiliate commissions? The same thing that happens to a vendor whose products don't sell: the affiliates, looking at the ROI for this vendor, say "this product is not even paying the cost of the domain name!" and dump the vendor.

                          Problem solved. No standards required... no policies required... no terms of service required. It works for every affiliate program, everywhere. It's already working in every affiliate program everywhere.

                          I'm a big fan of freedom. I don't like telling people what they have to do. I like giving them the freedom to do whatever they like, so I get to see what kind of people they really are.

                          Remember two days ago, when I suggested a way vendors could save the referring affiliate for list opt-ins and use it in future mailings?

                          If you tell people they have to implement that system on their opt-ins, then seeing someone do it doesn't tell you anything about them. Everyone does that; they have to. But when you can do whatever you like, and you put the time and energy into doing that... well, that means something, doesn't it?
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                          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                          • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
                            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                            Or, then again, maybe we understand free market economics.
                            :rolleyes:
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                            Bare Murkage.........

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                            • Profile picture of the author C A Perez
                              I'm new to all of this. It certainly is an eye opener. I particularly like Steven W.'s and JNFerree's comments.
                              Carlos
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                            • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                              Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

                              :rolleyes:
                              You know, I'm trying to be relaxed and groovy about this whole thing, but the attitude is really uncalled for.

                              This is a question of fundamental rights. I support the rights of people who do things I don't like, because that's exactly when you need to support those rights. Nobody needs to defend behaviour people like. You need to defend behaviour people find distasteful and offensive, or those fundamental rights start disappearing.

                              A vendor has the right to make whatever offer he wants to make, within the law and the affiliate program's terms of service. Even if it means you don't get a commission. And if you don't like that, you stop promoting his offer.

                              Likewise, as an affiliate, you have the right to promote that offer however you want - again,within the law and the affiliate program's terms of service. And that's where you earn your commission: the way you promote.

                              It is a dangerous precedent to suggest that those rights need to be restricted.
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                              "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                              • Profile picture of the author Nikhil V Nair
                                Let me share my thoughts.Split the whole list in to 2 parts

                                1) list generated by the vendor (no affiliate)
                                2) list generated by the affiliates


                                Vendor can promote what ever he wants to his own list but NOT to the list generated by affiliates.If he wants to do it,the affiliate also deserve a portion of the commission from that different product.

                                Just my thoughts
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                                • Profile picture of the author talfighel
                                  Originally Posted by Nikhil V Nair View Post

                                  Let me share my thoughts.Split the whole list in to 2 parts

                                  1) list generated by the vendor (no affiliate)
                                  2) list generated by the affiliates


                                  Vendor can promote what ever he wants to his own list but NOT to the list generated by affiliates.If he wants to do it,the affiliate also deserve a portion of the commission from that different product.

                                  Just my thoughts
                                  That is what should happen everytime.

                                  Tal
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                                  Home Business "TOP PICKS"!
                                  Home Business Tools And Resources!
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                                    Trying to force vendors to maintain 2 lists - their own and affiliate without every promoting other stuff to the affiliate list is too much to ask.

                                    If the vendor includes your hoplink in the initial emails to the prospect and tries to sell his product to them, in my opinion they have fulfilled their end of the agreement.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Jason Dolman
                                      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                                      Trying to force vendors to maintain 2 lists - their own and affiliate without every promoting other stuff to the affiliate list is too much to ask.

                                      If the vendor includes your hoplink in the initial emails to the prospect and tries to sell his product to them, in my opinion they have fulfilled their end of the agreement.
                                      Does the vendor not use some sort of enticement to get the prospect to provide their email address?

                                      Does this enticement not serve the purpose of trying to sell the product to them or do you require additional attempts through autoresponder?

                                      As others have suggested... if you have a problem with this, don't promote the offer.

                                      If you don't want to waste effort promoting the offer to find this out... ask the vendor directly.

                                      If they don't respond they're probably not the type of vendor you want to work with anyways.



                                      Jason
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                                        Originally Posted by Jason Dolman View Post

                                        Does the vendor not use some sort of enticement to get the prospect to provide their email address?
                                        Of course

                                        Originally Posted by Jason Dolman View Post

                                        Does this enticement not serve the purpose of trying to sell the product to them or do you require additional attempts through autoresponder?
                                        Well, if they opt-into the list instead of buying the product, other than autoresponder, how else would they sell the product?

                                        Originally Posted by Jason Dolman View Post

                                        As others have suggested... if you have a problem with this, don't promote the offer.
                                        I don't - As a matter of fact, there is only one Warrior here that can say I have ever promoted his Clickbank Product and that is a template from BlueSquares. Dude is as honest as the sky is blue.

                                        Originally Posted by Jason Dolman View Post

                                        If you don't want to waste effort promoting the offer to find this out... ask the vendor directly.
                                        Sounds easy, doesn't it? Unfortunately, when many vendors respond, they do so with a cookie cutter response that goes something like this:

                                        The opt-in is there to give us as many chances as possible to sell the visitor the product. As you know a Clickbank cookie stays in place for 60 days so, if they buy the product in the next 2 months you get credit!

                                        Yet, when the email the visitor their own affiliate link is strangely there.

                                        In all honesty, I could care less what anyone does with their list, because I don't promote many other peoples stuff.

                                        But, here is kind of a counter argument

                                        Frank Kern is launching Mass Control 3.0 and all the big dawgs jump on the launch. They are emailing their list frantically sending them to Franks squeeze page. Frank captures all the emails, right?

                                        Now what if he decided to say screw you guys! I'm overwriting your cookie and taking all the sales for myself!

                                        Fair game? After all, it is now his list right?

                                        Now lets say, He relaunches mass control 2.0 and again all the big dawgs start hammering their lists and frank again collects all the email addresses. Now he says screw this, Eban Pegan is releasing a new product, I think I'll stop promoting Mass control and try to sell all these people his product instead!

                                        I'm willing to bet That there would be a whole lot of product creators with big lists out their crying like little........well, you get the idea.
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                                        • Profile picture of the author Jason Dolman
                                          Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                                          Sounds easy, doesn't it? Unfortunately, when many vendors respond, they do so with a cookie cutter response that goes something like this:

                                          The opt-in is there to give us as many chances as possible to sell the visitor the product. As you know a Clickbank cookie stays in place for 60 days so, if they buy the product in the next 2 months you get credit!

                                          Yet, when the email the visitor their own affiliate link is strangely there.
                                          If this has happened to you, I suggest you report the offending affiliate and move onto promoting someone else.

                                          That aside... this concern was not brought up by the OP... their concern was with the speed with which the vendor was promoting other offers.

                                          Although I agree you have a valid point, it's probably best you save it for it's own thread.

                                          Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                                          But, here is kind of a counter argument

                                          Frank Kern is launching Mass Control 3.0 and all the big dawgs jump on the launch. They are emailing their list frantically sending them to Franks squeeze page. Frank captures all the emails, right?

                                          Now what if he decided to say screw you guys! I'm overwriting your cookie and taking all the sales for myself!

                                          Fair game? After all, it is now his list right?
                                          Not comparing apples to apples.

                                          The OP wasn't talking about overwriting cookies, that's a topic you decided to bring into the discussion - RIGHT HERE: http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post1040000

                                          If it's happening to you... stop promoting the offer... tell the affiliate network about it... move on. Complaining about it isn't going to change it... unfortunately.

                                          Nobody is saying it's an okay thing to do, please stop bringing it into this poor man's thread.

                                          Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                                          Now lets say, He relaunches mass control 2.0 and again all the big dawgs start hammering their lists and frank again collects all the email addresses. Now he says screw this, Eban Pegan is releasing a new product, I think I'll stop promoting Mass control and try to sell all these people his product instead!

                                          I'm willing to bet That there would be a whole lot of product creators with big lists out their crying like little........well, you get the idea.
                                          You're getting a little bit closer... but still talking about something else.

                                          The OP sent his traffic to a sales page for a live product, not a pre-launch as you're supposing. Once again... apples and oranges.


                                          Jason
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                                          • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                                            Jason,

                                            The conversation has progressed far beyond where the OP started it

                                            The scary thing is apparently even the situation that I described and that you quoted - Some feel that is an ok scenario.

                                            Honest to god, nothing that we have talked about in this thread affects me one way or the other...I'm more talking about things that I have seen in the CB marketplace as a way to kind of tell people to know what they are promoting before they promote it.
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                                            • Profile picture of the author Jason Dolman
                                              Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                                              Jason,

                                              The conversation has progressed far beyond where the OP started it
                                              I agree... but do you agree that it's progressed into the direction of overwriting cookies, stealing affiliate sales, and promoting "better than the real offer" free reports to generate emails as a result of your decision to direct it that way?

                                              As I said... you have valid points. Why wouldn't you start your own thread to discuss them?

                                              Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

                                              The scary thing is apparently even the situation that I described and that you quoted - Some feel that is an ok scenario.
                                              I don't see anyone in this thread who said they felt OK with that scenario.

                                              Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

                                              Honest to god, nothing that we have talked about in this thread affects me one way or the other...I'm more talking about things that I have seen in the CB marketplace as a way to kind of tell people to know what they are promoting before they promote it.
                                              That's very noble of you. I appreciate you warning people (especially the ones who don't even know they need to be warned). But once again.... own thread, no?

                                              Maybe I'm being picky here... and I apologize if that's your impression... but I don't think it's appropriate for you to use this thread to push your own agenda, no matter how "from the heart" it might be.



                                              Jason
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                                              • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                                                Sure thing Jason, I'll start "My own" thead about this right away!

                                                Might as well start one to find out which auto-responder is better too or maybe one to find out if anyone has made money with article marketing?

                                                Everything that was talked about in this thread revolved around what clickbank vendors do to a visitor once they got someone on a list and whether or not the affiliate gets credit. Damn! Another thread I need to start...How long does a clickbank Cookie stay good?

                                                Man, I'm going to flood the General Discussion today!

                                                I have a good idea...Maybe you could start another thread to talk about when to start another thread? That would be very helpful.
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                                                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                                                  Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                                                  Sure thing Jason, I'll start "My own" thead about this right away!

                                                  Might as well start one to find out which auto-responder is better too or maybe one to find out if anyone has made money with article marketing?

                                                  Everything that was talked about in this thread revolved around what clickbank vendors do to a visitor once they got someone on a list and whether or not the affiliate gets credit. Damn! Another thread I need to start...How long does a clickbank Cookie stay good?

                                                  Man, I'm going to flood the General Discussion today!

                                                  I have a good idea...Maybe you could start another thread to talk about when to start another thread? That would be very helpful.

                                                  Jeremy, do I detect a hint of sarcasm in this post?

                                                  It's hard to tell since you're name isn't Harvey. :p
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                                                • Profile picture of the author Jason Dolman
                                                  Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                                                  Sure thing Jason, I'll start "My own" thead about this right away!

                                                  Might as well start one to find out which auto-responder is better too or maybe one to find out if anyone has made money with article marketing?

                                                  Man, I'm going to flood the General Discussion today!

                                                  I have a good idea...Maybe you could start another thread to talk about when to start another thread? That would be very helpful.
                                                  Dude... no need to feel hurt. You've been hijacking this thread since the first page.

                                                  Post #9 - overwriting cookies/not setting cookies == "they overwrite my cookie, don't set the cookie at all, promote them stuff that I don't get credit for.... Screw them."

                                                  BTW... the tone of that post sounds like a lot more than just concern about your fellow affiliates being screwed over.

                                                  Post #33 - cheating vendors == "there are plenty of morons out there trying everything in the book that they can to "get over"

                                                  Post #39 - opt-in enticement == "that would be valid almost if some of these vendors "free report" wasn't more appealing than the actual product"

                                                  Post #46 - opt-in enticement & high ticket backends == "they sell a $47 product on clickbank - Throw up an opt-in that gives away a "how to make 10K while you sleep report" so, you opt-in. They then send you an email promoting Guru Y's $997 course with their affiliate info..."

                                                  .... and that's just the first page.

                                                  These topics where not part of the discussion until you made them a part of it.

                                                  As I said... you have some valid points... valid enough to deserve their own thread.

                                                  I agree the GD gets bogged down with tons of similar threads which is even more of a reason to set your thoughts aside in their own thread.

                                                  Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                                                  Everything that was talked about in this thread revolved around what clickbank vendors do to a visitor once they got someone on a list and whether or not the affiliate gets credit. Damn! Another thread I need to start...How long does a clickbank Cookie stay good?
                                                  While you're response about how everything talked about in this thread revolved around what CB vendors do to a visitor once they get someone on a list is true, so is the fact that the discussion was pushed into that direction by your hijacking of it { proof above }.

                                                  Unless the CB Code vendor has done these things, I don't understand how they fit into a discussion about how the CB Code vendor shocked the OP by quickly promoting another product after getting people on their list or different strategies on how to deal with the situation.

                                                  And since we can both agree it was you who brought overwriting cookies, stealing affiliate sales, and promoting "better than the real offer" free reports into the discussion... I don't see how it's an unreasonable thing to suggest you discuss those topics elsewhere.



                                                  Jason
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                                                  • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                                                    Jason, what's your point?

                                                    Yes, I brought up a lot of stuff in this thread that some clickbank vendors do, are you one of them? Because you sure seem to take it personal.

                                                    I'm not really concerned with whether you feel that I hijacked this thread or not. I brought some things up and others responded to them. Maybe if you have enough free time, you can send them all PM's and lecture them about thread hijacking.

                                                    Everything that I've said in this thread was one of two things.

                                                    1. Related to opt-in forms with relation to clickbank vendors
                                                    2. Addressing something that someone else said.

                                                    If you can find one other person in the IM niche whose product I've promoted on this forum other than BlueSquares, I'll eat your shorts - So, no - It doesn't affect me one bit.

                                                    I look forward to YOUR next attempt to hijack this thread.

                                                    I've got to run now, I have about 12 threads to start to satisfy your sense of forum etiquette.
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                                                    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                                                      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                                                      I'm not really concerned with whether you feel that I hijacked this thread or not.
                                                      I know you don't really care what I think , but it doesn't seem to me like you hijacked the thread at all. It migrated from "vendors do this" to "what vendors should be doing." We may disagree on the specifics of that, but we do seem to agree that it's a related and relevant discussion.
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                                                      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                                Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                                You know, I'm trying to be relaxed and groovy about this whole thing, but the attitude is really uncalled for.

                                This is a question of fundamental rights. I support the rights of people who do things I don't like, because that's exactly when you need to support those rights. Nobody needs to defend behaviour people like. You need to defend behaviour people find distasteful and offensive, or those fundamental rights start disappearing.

                                A vendor has the right to make whatever offer he wants to make, within the law and the affiliate program's terms of service. Even if it means you don't get a commission. And if you don't like that, you stop promoting his offer.

                                Likewise, as an affiliate, you have the right to promote that offer however you want - again,within the law and the affiliate program's terms of service. And that's where you earn your commission: the way you promote.

                                It is a dangerous precedent to suggest that those rights need to be restricted.

                                CD, technically, you are absolutely right. As long as you are within the
                                law you can do anything you like.

                                However, how many affiliates do you think somebody is actually going to
                                keep promoting their products if.

                                1. They force an opt in just to see the sales page.
                                2. Follow up the opt in with an email promoting another product
                                3. Never even try to convert the initial product being pitched

                                I for one would never promote such a product and if I have to say so
                                myself, I'm a pretty darn good affiliate marketer. Just ask the Nitro Boys,
                                Dean Shainin or Alvin Yuang.

                                So yeah, if you want to reduce the number of affiliates you're going to
                                get promoting your stuff (unless you can come up with a damn good
                                reason why they should) then by all means, do it this way.

                                For me, it isn't so much about ethics or about what people should
                                and shouldn't do.

                                It's about not biting the hand that feeds you.

                                To me...that's just plain stupid.

                                But hell, what do I know? I'm just another successful affiliate marketer
                                who could make anybody with a decent product that I believe in a few
                                grand.

                                This whole thread just totally boggles my mind.
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                                • Profile picture of the author Jason Dolman
                                  Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                                  CD, technically, you are absolutely right. As long as you are within the law you can do anything you like.

                                  However, how many affiliates do you think somebody is actually going to
                                  keep promoting their products if.

                                  1. They force an opt in just to see the sales page.
                                  2. Follow up the opt in with an email promoting another product
                                  3. Never even try to convert the initial product being pitched

                                  So yeah, if you want to reduce the number of affiliates you're going to
                                  get promoting your stuff (unless you can come up with a damn good
                                  reason why they should) then by all means, do it this way.
                                  You and he are saying the same thing Steven.

                                  Free market economics: Free market - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                                  A free market is a term that economists use to describe a market which is free from economic intervention and regulation by government, other than protection of property rights.

                                  Basically... the market itself dictates what is and is not sold, leaving each individual free to decide which items they wish to sell and purchase.

                                  In the case of affiliate marketing, the person making the buy/sell decision is the affiliate marketer who is free to decide for themselves whether or not to promote the offer.

                                  If a large number of affiliates choose not to promote products that fit into your 3 criteria listed above, they will lose their position to the offers that are being promoted.

                                  If a large number of affiliates choose to continue promoting these products, then the minority can still have the free choice of seeking out offers that do not fit your criteria.


                                  Jason
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                                    Originally Posted by Jason Dolman View Post

                                    You and he are saying the same thing Steven.

                                    Free market economics: Free market - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                                    A free market is a term that economists use to describe a market which is free from economic intervention and regulation by government, other than protection of property rights.

                                    Basically... the market itself dictates what is and is not sold, leaving each individual free to decide which items they wish to sell and purchase.

                                    In the case of affiliate marketing, the person making the buy/sell decision is the affiliate marketer who is free to decide for themselves whether or not to promote the offer.

                                    If a large number of affiliates choose not to promote products that fit into your 3 criteria listed above, they will lose their position to the offers that are being promoted.

                                    If a large number of affiliates choose to continue promoting these products, then the minority can still have the free choice of seeking out offers that do not fit your criteria.


                                    Jason

                                    Yeah, I understand that, but isn't it stupid to do things that are going
                                    to piss affiliates off?

                                    I mean does this make any sense at all?

                                    I swear, I feel like I'm in the freaking Twilight Zone today.

                                    We're not saying the same thing.

                                    CD's saying it's okay. I'm saying it's dumb.

                                    Now maybe he personally thinks it's dumb (unless you don't want
                                    affiliates) but so far hasn't actually said how he personally feels about
                                    vendors who do this. Personally, I'd love to know if he thinks it's dumb or
                                    not.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                                      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                                      Now maybe he personally thinks it's dumb (unless you don't want affiliates) but so far hasn't actually said how he personally feels about vendors who do this. Personally, I'd love to know if he thinks it's dumb or not.
                                      As a vendor, I think it's amazingly stupid. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the more commissions your product generates for your affiliates, the more your affiliates will promote you, and the more affiliates you will have.

                                      Every commission you hijack is a commission you didn't give to an affiliate. You could have given it to an affiliate, but you didn't. Instead of developing a better relationship with your affiliates, you chose to take some quick cash. It's not even that much cash. That's shortsighted and stupid.

                                      But you have every right to do it. (Within the boundaries of law and the terms of service for your affiliate program, of course.)

                                      As an affiliate, I don't care what you (Ed. for clarity: you-the-vendor) do. You can make whatever offers you like, and I don't give a toss. All I care about is my bottom line and my ROI. If you're not generating enough commissions into my account, I'll just go promote something else. I'm not particularly attached to how well your product converts; there's a lot of them about.
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                                      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                                        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                                        As a vendor, I think it's amazingly stupid. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the more commissions your product generates for your affiliates, the more your affiliates will promote you, and the more affiliates you will have.

                                        Every commission you hijack is a commission you didn't give to an affiliate. You could have given it to an affiliate, but you didn't. Instead of developing a better relationship with your affiliates, you chose to take some quick cash. It's not even that much cash. That's shortsighted and stupid.

                                        But you have every right to do it. (Within the boundaries of law and the terms of service for your affiliate program, of course.)

                                        As an affiliate, I don't care what you (Ed. for clarity: you-the-vendor) do. You can make whatever offers you like, and I don't give a toss. All I care about is my bottom line and my ROI. If you're not generating enough commissions into my account, I'll just go promote something else. I'm not particularly attached to how well your product converts; there's a lot of them about.

                                        OK, then I guess actually (as weird as this may sound) we're on the
                                        same page as one poster put it.

                                        I guess it makes it easier to separate those who you want to do business
                                        with from those who you want to stay as far away from as possible.

                                        Cool.
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                                        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                                          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                                          OK, then I guess actually (as weird as this may sound) we're on the same page as one poster put it.
                                          Since I know you're a software guy, you may appreciate the sentiment that drives a lot of my philosophy: "UNIX doesn't stop you from doing stupid things, because that would stop you from doing clever things."
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                                          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                                  • Profile picture of the author BillyBee
                                    Steven Wagenheim writes:
                                    <<<This whole thread just totally boggles my mind.>>>

                                    Steven, your one sentence sums up this entire topic, completely.

                                    Are you kidding me --- the original poster of this thread claims to be a full-time marketer and it never occurs to him that he's driving traffic to someone ELSE'S website?

                                    And he never saw the opt-in form on the merchant's site . . . and he doesn't connect the dots that it's hooked up to an autoresponder.

                                    Any outrage on this topic is laughable.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                            Or, then again, maybe we understand free market economics.
                            Yeah, apparently in the same way that someone like the government sees it, maybe

                            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                            What happens to a vendor who hijacks affiliate commissions? The same thing that happens to a vendor whose products don't sell: the affiliates, looking at the ROI for this vendor, say "this product is not even paying the cost of the domain name!" and dump the vendor.
                            Why in the world should someone have to go through the BS of buying a domain name and promoting a product to find out that the owner is dishonest. On clickbank it is at the very least "accepted" by the majority that if you send a visitor to a sales page, your cookie is set for 60 days...not to mention to a certain extent by the written documentation on ClickBank. Even better, most of the products that have affiliate programs also spell this out in black and white.

                            I'm not real sure if you really believe the garbage you are spewing or if you are posting just to post. Either way, you are painting yourself as someone whose products I wouldn't touch with someone elses ten foot pole...If you get my drift.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                              Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                              Yeah, apparently in the same way that someone like the government sees it, maybe



                              Why in the world should someone have to go through the BS of buying a domain name and promoting a product to find out that the owner is dishonest. On clickbank it is at the very least "accepted" by the majority that if you send a visitor to a sales page, your cookie is set for 60 days...not to mention to a certain extent by the written documentation on ClickBank. Even better, most of the products that have affiliate programs also spell this out in black and white.

                              I'm not real sure if you really believe the garbage you are spewing or if you are posting just to post. Either way, you are painting yourself as someone whose products I wouldn't touch with someone elses ten foot pole...If you get my drift.

                              Jeremy, you're wasting your time.

                              I'll leave it at that.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jaspworld
    I don't think there's anything wrong with promoting other products. After all, who doesn't like a few extra bucks.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dreams
    Tal,

    Thanks for posting this. I'm a newbie and I would not have seen that one coming!

    Good Luck
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    • Profile picture of the author Robyn8243
      I was so naive when I first stumbled onto Clickbank, that I actually believed that a merchant with an opt in and a free report was a good thing.

      I thought...marketing 101...give a free ebook as a way to capture contact info...and continue selling benefits of your product...7 contacts before purchase, etc.

      Silly me, thinking that the purpose was to follow up with potential customers to try to sell them on the value of the product being promoted. (I may have even read that on an affiliate page or two)

      I really don't understand the attitude that if someone does not buy the first time they visit a merchant's sales page, that the affiliate does not deserve to be paid, because 'the affiliate did not do their job'??????????????????HUH??????????????????????

      Shhh...I think I hear the twilight zone theme music.

      If you really believe that, then why bother with cookies in the first place?

      There are affiliate programs for physical products where if your traffic does not buy during their initial visit you don't get paid...but those merchants don't generally encourage people to leave without paying by offering a freebie...and more important
      the rules are clear up front, so affiliates can make an informed decision.

      It seems highly hypocritical to offer affiliates the perceived benefit of 60 day cookies....
      ...then give potential buyers the option to put off their buying decision by
      offering a free sneak peak, and
      .....then justify the decision to immediately begin promoting different products sans cookies
      ....because 'the affiliate didn't do their job.' Really???

      On some level every affiliate/merchant relationship is a joint venture that should be profitable for both parties. Most affiliates expect to be treated with some level of common decency and fairness. If I am sending you traffic I think it is reasonable to expect that there should be an attempt to make it profitable for both of us.

      Do I have a problem with a merchant building a list from leads I send
      and ultimately trying to sell to their hearts content?

      No, of course not. I absolutely 100% expect a marketer to market. But it is possible
      to build your list without immediately screwing your affiliates.

      There are plenty of merchants out there who actually do their best to create a win/win situation for themselves and their affiliates.

      Some even sell on Clickbank.

      I just find it really disheartening that anyone would even attempt to justify that it is ethically okay to IMMEDIATELY start pitching competitive products, without ever trying to close on the initial product being promoted.

      At least with CPA offers, you know what the deal is...you get paid for generating leads period.

      The lesson I take from all of this is that everyone needs to realize that there is no general "Clickbank" protocol. Before you choose to promote a Clickbank product, you need to check and double check what the specific merchant is doing. Every merchant treats their affiliates differently, and affiliates need to be aware of this.

      It's too bad that most people learn the hard way.

      Probably the worst Clickbank offense I have personally come across was a buy
      button that went directly to PAYPAL, not clickbank. The fact is merchants can
      get away with just about anything on Clickbank and some do.

      Let the Affiliate Beware...


      Robyn
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  • Profile picture of the author Adam B
    Most clickbank products now have opt in lists. Jamie does it on profit miracle. When it comes down to it this is business. Why not?
    The product creator grows his list, follows up the initial lead keeping the affiliates id intact. The creator also adds the email details to his list. Then later promotes other clickbank products with his own affiliate id.
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  • Profile picture of the author dynameek
    Originally Posted by talfighel View Post

    Ok, so I am promoting the CB code through Clickbank on my website and I personally have opted into the newsletter too through my own link just to see what kind of emails they are sending out.

    Today, Saturday August 1st, I got another email from CB code and I was shocked to see that this person, when he needs to sell his own product, is selling another item on clickbank to his list ( From leads that we all generated for him) and what is shocking is that all the leads that we affiliates have generated for him, he is using it to promote other stuff from our own leads.

    This is plain wrong and I am shocked to see this.

    I will no longer promote this offer on my website. This is THEFT.

    Tal
    It saddens me when things like that happen. You know he's just about one of the few doing it now? I mean making his landing page a complete opt-in page. Maybe we should write a petition to Clickbank about that - about marchants using such form of unfair tactics to cheat affiliates. The question is, will they (CB) listen?
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
      Because I have been so active in this thread, it would be irresponsible of me not to clear something up...

      NOT ALL CLICKBANK VENDORS ARE "BAD"

      There are a lot of vendors on clickbank that actually do right by their affiliates. Sure, they promote other products to the list they build, but prior to doing so, they at the very least send out a series of emails to convert them into buyers of their own product so that you make a commission and the vendor gets a sale.

      What you want to do when you are thinking about promoting a clickbank product who has an obvious in your face opt-in on the sales page is to sign up to the list yourself. Wait for the first email to come and click on the link in the email - MAKE SURE YOUR HOPLINK IS STILL SHOWING UP ON THE ORDER PAGE WHEN YOU CLICK THROUGH. If it is, then you are dealing with an honest vendor...If not, stay away from them.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

        Because I have been so active in this thread, it would be irresponsible of me not to clear something up...

        NOT ALL CLICKBANK VENDORS ARE "BAD"

        There are a lot of vendors on clickbank that actually do right by their affiliates. Sure, they promote other products to the list they build, but prior to doing so, they at the very least send out a series of emails to convert them into buyers of their own product so that you make a commission and the vendor gets a sale.

        What you want to do when you are thinking about promoting a clickbank product who has an obvious in your face opt-in on the sales page is to sign up to the list yourself. Wait for the first email to come and click on the link in the email - MAKE SURE YOUR HOPLINK IS STILL SHOWING UP ON THE ORDER PAGE WHEN YOU CLICK THROUGH. If it is, then you are dealing with an honest vendor...If not, stay away from them.

        Excellent, excellent advice.

        That's what I do.
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        • Profile picture of the author Ram
          What the hell????

          The only reason I have affiliates at all is so THEY can send ME traffic to add to MY list so I can sell them others things (my own or affiliate products) down the road.

          In return, the affiliate gets a generous commission on the product of mine they promote.

          I don't even care about the money from the products my affiliates promote. They are just lead generation devices. I care about the "free report-type" opt-ins and the real buyers who join my list.

          And there is not a damn thing wrong with that.

          Just because you are my affiliate and send me traffic doesn't mean you own that traffic forever. It doesn't mean only you have the right to market to them from now on.

          If they choose to opt into my list or buy, then I OWN those leads and traffic and you can bet your last dime I will market to them over and over again and, yes, aggressively compete with you on other affiliate products.

          Everything in my business is geared to constantly building my lists so I can market to them on the backend. Everything. And affiliates are just part of that strategy, nothing more.
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          • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
            ^ You should read the whole thread...

            Noone is saying that the vendor doesn't have the right to promote any product that they want to their list.

            People, myself included are saying that vendors don't have the right to strip affiliates links out after they spend their time and energy sending visitors to their sales page.
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  • Profile picture of the author mikemcmillan
    It's simple math. All of the big Clickbank vendors have opt-in forms. Sure they want visitors to buy their product when they reach their page. And some will send follow-up emails to push that product. But really, there is a point of diminishing returns.

    Suppose a Clickbank product in the IM niche has been out for a year. This initial buzz is gone. The product, which may have once been on the front of the Marketing & Ads section is now buried on page 60 with a gravity of 12.

    It is much, much more efficient for the product vendor to promote products by emails that have just launched--that's where all of the buzz is and what people want to know about. New product launches are where the easy money is so that's why all the gurus do their big mailings for them.

    Look at Day Job Killer. It was Clickbank's biggest seller ever when it came out. Chris sold something like 5,000 units within 3 days or so. When was the last time you got an email from a guru promoting DJK? They don't! The all promote the new product launches because that's where the easy money is.

    If the major Clickbank product vendors could make more money sending out emails promoting their newest (which may not be new) product rather products just launched--trust me, they would do it!

    Look at the leader boards for the big CB launches. The contests usually run for two weeks. Why don't they run them for 6 months? Because after the first couple weeks the buzz dies down--the super-affiliates move on the the next big launch. These guys aren't stupid, they know where the money is and they are good at getting it.

    The other thing to consider is this. The gurus know who promotes their product launches. And if they don't promote a launch by doing a mailing to their list, the vendor of that product is less likely to do a mailing for them when they launch a product. You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. To keep in the circle they MUST promote their buddies products with emails when they come out.

    Finally, suppose I launch a product called Mike's Big Book and you promote it with a pre-sell page. You have an opt-in form to collect names. You got organic traffic leeching off of the buzz from my product. Does that mean I should tell you that you can only mail to the names you collect offers for my product? Don't be silly! It is just as silly to think that you should tell me how to market to MY LIST I built from opting in names on my page.

    Sure, you did work on setting up a pre-sell page--maybe a couple hours. But I may have invested months in developing the product, paying consultants, paying a copywriter, paying a web designer, paying for graphics--I have expenses to recover too and they are much, much more substantial than yours! I have a right to optimize my profits and I'll do it in any way I can. If I can make more money promoting other people's products to the list I built--I'll do it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
      First, I want to apologize to RAM. I reread my response to him and I came off as a bit of an A-hole, even in my own eyes so...

      Mike,

      I have 2 questions:

      1. When an affiliate send you a visitor and you capture then in your opt-in - When you send an email out, is the affiliates cookie still in place?

      2. Do you make an honest effort to sell the lead the product which the affiliate directed him to your sales page for?

      If you answer yes to both of those questions, we are in complete agreement
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      • Profile picture of the author Ram
        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

        First, I want to apologize to RAM. I reread my response to him and I came off as a bit of an A-hole, even in my own eyes so...

        Mike,

        I have 2 questions:

        1. When an affiliate send you a visitor and you capture then in your opt-in - When you send an email out, is the affiliates cookie still in place?

        2. Do you make an honest effort to sell the lead the product which the affiliate directed him to your sales page for?

        If you answer yes to both of those questions, we are in complete agreement
        Jeremy,
        No apology necessary but it's most gracious and appreciated. I was more than a little preachy in my first couple of posts and should have been more diplomatic. Sorry to all.

        And I absolutely agree the affiliate should get the commission when they drive a sale to an initial product. I am more than happy to pay for the "buyer" lead.
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      • Profile picture of the author psresearch
        Interesting thread.

        Regarding Steve W. and Kim S.'s comments...while it's normal for the vendor to sell other products and not give affiliate commissions on them, some vendors understand that in an extremely competitive market that to draw the top affiliates they need to make their affiliate program as attractive as possible.

        Marlon Sanders comes to mind as he was tracking affiliate sales on most (or maybe all) of his products for you if you sent people to his list as far back as 8 years ago (maybe longer - I can't remember).

        I believe James Schramko does that as well (not 100% sure on that).

        Obviously all things being equal (i.e. conversion, commissions), etc. the best affiliates are going to be drawn to the offers that treat them the best as affiliates.

        The affiliate managers/owners I drive the most sales for are the ones that have seen the amount of sales I drive and then suggest more ways to put more money in my pocket on more of their products. A few have even set up my own list that they monitor but are all tied to my own affiliate link.

        So, yes, it's "standard practice". But in a competitive market do you really want to be just be meeting a "standard"?

        Btw, from Marlon's affiliate program site:

        "2) Does the affiliate program follow up with additional products or services to your buyers AND pay you commissions on those follow up sales?

        Did you know that with a lot of programs you don't make any money on the follow up sales to your buyers? You get zero. Nada. Zilch. In other words, you spend all your money and all your time getting someone to buy their products to get a 1 time 50% commission and the affiliate program owner promotes the heck out of that new buyer and get them to buy all kinds of other stuff and you don't even get a thank you, let alone a check in the mail.

        I guess there's a fool born every minute.

        With the GetYourProfits program we follow up with YOUR buyers with up to 20 different products and services that you can earn commissions on. Some of these products are recurring billing programs so you earn your commission month after month, year after year.

        Our products pay between 50% and 70% commissions (except some big tickets, which still pay out a hefty commish). What this means to you is, you can get a buyer one time and make additional commissions by doing nothing because we follow up, we pay for the autoresponders, we write the emails, we handle the live chat calls, we return emails and we make the sales and YOU get the commission."
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        • Profile picture of the author mbrown
          Wow. Very interesting. I guess Marlon, myself and a few others disagree with many of the posts here. But, to be honest it's something I've noticed in this industry. Every product owner wants more sales, bottom line.

          However, at what price should they come and how many affiliates have to lose out because of this?

          I believe affiliates should be rewarded for their efforts and not just for their initial work. If someone is busting it trying to get sales on my product it's because that affiliate knows what I am offering is great and that they can also make quite a bit of money affiliating with it.

          So if I have a squeeze page setup to collect leads and I am letting affiliates promote that squeeze page - the primary responsibility of that squeeze page is to make a sale. The sale is shared between myself and my affiliate who landed that subscriber to my list. The follow ups are geared towards given good advice and generating additional follow up sales.

          The affiliate for me gets lifelong commission based on IP and cookie. It's a win/win because without that affiliate I would never have had THAT sale. So my affiliates reap lifetime rewards and we go out of our way to make sure they get those commissions. Guess what happens when you have happy affiliates? They make MORE sales. Yea I've got to pay them for their work but if you're a marketer preparing to make a ton of money and ride off into the sunset with the front end products - you're really missing the point... and likely making far less in the process than you really could be.

          Part of the problem is that many marketers are not even remotely picky about what they promote and the affiliate loses in this situation. Because the marketer simply promotes 20 offers per month that are all their buddies projects and instead should for their sake and affiliates sake be focused more on their own.
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          • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
            Originally Posted by mbrown View Post

            Wow. Very interesting. I guess Marlon, myself and a few others disagree with many of the posts here. But, to be honest it's something I've noticed in this industry. Every product owner wants more sales, bottom line.

            However, at what price should they come and how many affiliates have to lose out because of this?

            I believe affiliates should be rewarded for their efforts and not just for their initial work. If someone is busting it trying to get sales on my product it's because that affiliate knows what I am offering is great and that they can also make quite a bit of money affiliating with it.

            So if I have a squeeze page setup to collect leads and I am letting affiliates promote that squeeze page - the primary responsibility of that squeeze page is to make a sale. The sale is shared between myself and my affiliate who landed that subscriber to my list. The follow ups are geared towards given good advice and generating additional follow up sales.

            The affiliate for me gets lifelong commission based on IP and cookie. It's a win/win because without that affiliate I would never have had THAT sale. So my affiliates reap lifetime rewards and we go out of our way to make sure they get those commissions. Guess what happens when you have happy affiliates? They make MORE sales. Yea I've got to pay them for their work but if you're a marketer preparing to make a ton of money and ride off into the sunset with the front end products - you're really missing the point... and likely making far less in the process than you really could be.

            Part of the problem is that many marketers are not even remotely picky about what they promote and the affiliate loses in this situation. Because the marketer simply promotes 20 offers per month that are all their buddies projects and instead should for their sake and affiliates sake be focused more on their own.
            Damn, not really sure who you are, I don't get out much but where the hell do people sign up? lol

            Above is an example that I personally feel is ABOVE AND BEYOND what any affiliate would expect.
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            • Profile picture of the author psresearch
              Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

              Damn, not really sure who you are, I don't get out much but where the hell do people sign up? lol

              Above is an example that I personally feel is ABOVE AND BEYOND what any affiliate would expect.
              Hmm. So you mean if you could make more money there you'd want to sign up that fast and send traffic there INSTEAD of to someone else? ;-)

              Guess that's what Marlon's been counting on all these years, too.
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              • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                Originally Posted by markquinn View Post

                Hmm. So you mean if you could make more money there you'd want to sign up that fast and send traffic there INSTEAD of to someone else? ;-)

                Guess that's what Marlon's been counting on all these years, too.
                In a heart beat and I imagine that a ton of other affiliates would too.

                Vendors with those sorts of practices should definitely make themselves more visual to the masses.
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                • Profile picture of the author psresearch
                  Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                  In a heart beat and I imagine that a ton of other affiliates would too.

                  Vendors with those sorts of practices should definitely make themselves more visual to the masses.
                  Definitely. It does state on his site that he has 29,000 affiliates, but you'd think for someone who's been around as long as he has, he'd have more.

                  Well, technically it says 29,000 "happy" affiliates. Maybe he's not counting the unhappy ones. ;-)
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                  • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                    Originally Posted by markquinn View Post

                    Definitely. It does state on his site that he has 29,000 affiliates, but you'd think for someone who's been around as long as he has, he'd have more.

                    Well, technically it says 29,000 "happy" affiliates. Maybe he's not counting the unhappy ones. ;-)
                    I actually think I've heard that hampster loving Kevin Riley talk about him before on Skype now that I think about it

                    I know I'll be checking out what he has to see if anything might be of benefit to my subscribers Hell, the way he does it, it's almost like recurring income instead of a one off
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          • Profile picture of the author reapr
            So it seems to me that a few in this thread have made some decent money daily with a CB product to see it goto to nothing once that opt in form for a preview or sample version is made available.

            Gesh what do I know ... been there done that.

            I think CB should stop this practice or eliminate merchants who don't pass the cookie to the opt in form and it should be a 30 day cookie at minimum.
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  • Profile picture of the author mikemcmillan
    Jeremy, I didn't know if you meant me when you said Mike--I guess you did. Yes on both counts. I have a deep appreciation for affiliates who promote my products and I DO want to take care of them. That's why I set up a different list for each of my products in the IM niche--so I can promote to the traffic I get from different product pages. Everyone doesn't do that.

    One other thing--if people are concerned about missing out on commissions as per the posts in this thread--something even more troubling happens that does directly affect their commissions.

    Almost all of the CB gurus use some kind of virtual agent thingiemabob to try to capture click-outs and convert them into sales. You know--a screen comes up and an "agent" offers you a $20 discount if you click the button to order. There are two biggies in the market that offer this service. One of the two doesn't interfere with the affiliate's cookie that was set when the visitor arrived--the other one does. If you are promoting a product as an affiliate and that particular pop-up captures a sale when the visitor tries to click out of the site--the affiliate gets no commission!

    Now, both the vendor and that service company will tell you that you wouldn't have gotten a commission, since the visitor was clicking out anyway--however, as an affiliate--you were the person who drove the traffic to the site to begin with. This is where tons and tons of affiliate lose commissions.

    Yes Jeremy, we are in agreement--put me back on your cookout list (no opt-in please) and I'll do likewise
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  • Profile picture of the author David Snape
    Hi Tal,

    This is the dirty secret of affiliate marketing. No matter what you market as an affiliate, there are many ways to lose commissions. When promoting other products outside of clickbank there are problems too. For example: many affiliate programs have a phone number. The order takers never ask for the 'reference' or 'referral' number and you lose sales there too.

    It is regrettable. But it is also part of the reason why it is harder to make it via affiliate marketing. It is very difficult to ascertain just how many sales you are losing.

    I have talked to three different companies about this and they all admit that their order takers will not ask for the referral or reference code. I;ve also been told that only 1 out of every 200 callers would provide it when they do ask. So, you are almost without a doubt losing sales this way too.

    That also means that almost no one will volunteer such information either. They just want to order the product. It's sad, but true and the companies really don't care or don't have a way to give you credit for the sales.

    So, being an affiliate is tough in some ways, but in other ways there are advantages For example, as an affiliate you really don't have to deal with customer refunds, customer care, shipping, packaging, etc.

    If you can really get your affiliate business going despite the many ways you lose sales, it could be very much worth it. However, it is more difficult than it should be because of the many ways you do lose money with affiliate marketing.

    What I just mentioned is something that I have not seen discussed anywhere else on the net. It could be out there, but no one is talking about this.

    If you are going to do clickbank, I agree that it is best to avoid those sellers who are collecting email addresses. The problem with that is that all of the smart ones ARE collecting email addresses. Some programs will go so far as to provide you an alternate page where there is a duplicate sales letter that does not try to capture the lead. These affiliate managers / business owners understand that smart affiliates are NOT going to promote offers that lead to lead captures and lost sales for the affiliate.

    Another problem is that some affiliate tracking software has some major problems. I want offer any names, but there is one in particular that I believe loses a large percentage of affiliate sales. I believe this for various reasons I won't go into here.

    It is safe to assume that other affiliate tracking software also has problems. Therefore this problem is another factor in losing sales.

    It is a bummer that affiliate marketing is made even harder due to these problems. Then there are hijackers who replace your affiliate cookie, etc.

    It's tough to be an affiliate.....
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Wilson
    This thread has gone wildly off track. The original question of whether a vendor has the right to promote other products to people you've sent him seemed to me to be extraordinarily naive.
    Amen, the only thing I got from the OP was:

    1) They were shocked that at some point in time a merchant might promote something else

    2) They were just as shocked that if the merchant did promote something else, that the merchant didn't use his affiliate link to also get the commission for the other products promoted.


    But the rest of the debate has been interesting!
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    • Profile picture of the author Agung Prabowo
      Originally Posted by Jeremy Wilson View Post

      Amen, the only thing I got from the OP was:

      1) They were shocked that at some point in time a merchant might promote something else

      2) They were just as shocked that if the merchant did promote something else, that the merchant didn't use his affiliate link to also get the commission for the other products promoted.


      But the rest of the debate has been interesting!
      That was OP want to tell about

      Vendor should be more wisely i think, and better promote their product first with affiliate that bring them to their site instead promote other stuff. so affiliate is happy vendor is happy

      win-win solution,

      i know it's hard for affiliate bring prospects to site with List, PPC, organic etc... and vendor should care more to their affiliate, like i said above it's not easy bring them......don't let vendor disapointed affiliate

      but that just IMHO
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  • Profile picture of the author talfighel
    I see it this way in my own view and I really don't care if anyone agrees with me or not.

    If I am paying for traffic to a specific splash page for a clickbank product, I expect from the list owner to be honest and promote that product even 1 year later to that opt in subscriber.

    The reason why I was sending them traffic because of the $40 plus commission. Person A who subscribes today, may not buy until Christmas comes. When Christmas comes and person A decides to buy that same item, I still get a commission even though he will buy on Christmas.

    What I learned from my own opt in list is that people may join any of the programs that I am promoting even 4-12 months later.

    I have been online for a few years and never knew that this situation would and could come up and happen but it did but all I can say is that I learned my lesson and from now I will no longer promote products that require you to opt in on the sales page.

    LESSON learned and CASE closed.

    Tal
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  • Profile picture of the author JNFerree
    Tal,

    From where I sit and from my personal experience, the 'cruel' reality of your issue is pretty common. Case in point, not long ago, I was one of 12,000 guys who kibitzed a Social Media Teleseminar by a couple of major players in the SMM space and one of the key take aways I got from this session was on JV deals, in particular, WHO gets the leads generated from the campaign?

    Perry's take on this was: He with the AUDIENCE, makes the Rules. IOW, he brings his 130,000 followers to the table, so he gets (a copy) of ALL leads generated from any JV campaign, be it a webinar/teleseminar or conventional product launch.

    It stands to reason, if the Merchant's product is the draw and if you merely send your traffic to the Merchant's sales page vs. intercept the flow and send them to YOUR Squeeze/Landing Page 1st, then what do you expect?

    Like you, for a long time, I made this error too! <tisk/tisk>

    With so many affordable tools avail, it only makes sense that if you're going to invest the effort to promote a CB or Hydra or any other AFF product/service, you would be wise to control the redirect to YOUR page 1st, then send them to the Merchant's sales page.

    Not long ago, I invested large $$$ into GCD and followed their direct linking model. To me, this was OK (just) for my Phase 1 test, to track which what KWs converted and calculate my CPC. Then I would create my mini-site / Review site so I could ensure the Traffic I generated would become my future asset.

    A very smart and successful IM guy gave me this Tip:

    The LIST you create is 10 times more valuable than a single sale, so don't make the mistake of generating targeted traffic for a Merchant and not collecting the prospect/buyer's name/email in YOUR sales funnel process 1st! The video my friend Chuck M. did on this totally convinced me on why sending Traffic to a Merchant's site (without 1st capturing their email) is a Big Bad Boo-Boo.

    Moral of the Story:

    Don't get pissed off at the Merchant. Collect your Asset (LIST) and THEN send them to your Merchant's sales page and earn your commission.

    Just my $.02 ~ Hang in there Tal!
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  • Profile picture of the author Jaspworld
    The LIST you create is 10 times more valuable than a single sale, so don't make the mistake of generating targeted traffic for a Merchant and not collecting the prospect/buyer's name/email in YOUR sales funnel process 1st! The video my friend Chuck M. did on this totally convinced me on why sending Traffic to a Merchant's site (without 1st capturing their email) is a Big Bad Boo-Boo.
    What exactly can you do with a list, according to your understanding. I mean will you send people e-mails every week with your affiliate links in them or somehow convince them to buy your product? Or is there some other strategy.
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  • Profile picture of the author JNFerree
    Jasp,

    That's a GOOD question. It takes some time and a LOT of reading (trying to separate the Wheat from the Chaff) one Tip I got from a smart IM guy was to subscribe to as many Guru LISTS as you can stomach and see what they send, when they send it and pay particular attention to their Subject HEADLINE, General Flow of the Sales Message (Body) and the CALL TO ACTION. Save the good ones in your SWIPE File.

    Then, mirror and copy and rinse and repeat the ones that motivate YOU to take action.

    Case in point. That 12,000 seat webinar I sat in on a week ago, I have gotten probably 10-15 "other" sales letter emails from the moderator (Perry Belcher). 90% of the stuff he is pitching, I already know about, but that's not the issue. The thing I am monitoring is both WHAT he is 'pitching' and HOW he is pitching it, so I can improve my process.

    Another way of getting hip to how the Pros use their Aweber account, is to find a strong Affiliate product, click thru to their AFF marketing resource page and notice the email templates they make avail for you to promo their product launch. The good ones, have 3-5 emails already coded with your aff link embedded in the email and tell you when to send them etc. (Google Zero Friction) and look at his AFF resource page. It's not the best I've seen, but its a good one.
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  • Profile picture of the author b.super13
    What I would do is drive traffic to a landing page and put your opt in form on that page so you collect their email address and build your own list. It is not that uncommon for a product owner to promote products other than their own to their list. After all, it is their list of people.
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  • Profile picture of the author JNFerree
    Hey CDarklock

    Since you've put it THAT WAY, I might just have to look 'closer' @ your WSO, coz I don't think it could get any plainer or more accurate

    Neil
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Stigson
    Ehm? I don't get this post at all... What's the point of building a list if I can't promote affiliate offers to it? That's the whole point... Tell me anybody who doesn't do this? It's obvious that if they don't want to buy the product in question (the CB code) he can now promote whatever he wants... Oh well, sorry you are mad about it...

    - Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author NetVenturer
    If I understand this correctly, I don't see a big difference with promotions using products and vendors from Commission Junction, Linkshare, Share-a-Sale. You send someone to purchase a product or service. If they don't buy, they don't buy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Saul'
    Originally Posted by talfighel View Post

    I will no longer promote this offer on my website. This is THEFT.
    You're talking of a guy who took another product, changed the background of the slides, re-did the voice over and is selling it as his own. I'm not surprised.

    That aside, it's not really a theft. You should know what you agree to. And I'm pretty sure there's no agreement for you to get paid more than for the sales of this one particular product.

    Is it smart for you to work under such agreement (or lack of)? It's for you to decide. But you always have an option not to promote if the commission doesn't satisfy you.

    I can sure relate to you - I avoid such affiliate programs like plague.
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  • Profile picture of the author stratus10
    If I understand this right what you could do is put a optin page between your website link and the affiliate program in this case the CB Code so that you have that lead in your own database or am I completely not understanding this? It's a total rip off in any case of The commission blueprint in my opinion anyway, which is much better.
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  • Profile picture of the author greff
    "Theft" may not be the correct word, but it just plain sucks.

    Perhaps we can call it "burglary". A felony. Screw him.
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  • Profile picture of the author 2b1ask1
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
      Originally Posted by 2b1ask1 View Post

      Hey Jeremy... I tried emailing you at:
      admin [at] supermarketingpro.com

      And got a bounced email:

      SMTP error from remote mail server after RCPT TO:<admin@supermarketingpro.com>:
      host supermarketingpro.com [74.53.86.2]: 550 Mailbox quota exceeded

      Can I write to you at a better email address?
      Open a support ticket at supermarketingpro.com at the top of the site it gives you instructions...or you can PM me here...
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  • Profile picture of the author rawhide
    A lot of this is going on just keep checking !
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  • Profile picture of the author highprofitdi
    Gotta be real careful anymore whose stuff you choose to promote out there but you can't group them all together either I have had a lot of success with sellers who had opt in boxes on their sales pages and i've had problems with those without it's a judgement call.
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  • Profile picture of the author Damien Roche
    This is like directing somebody to a theme park, with your affiliate id on their t-shirt, then complaining when they don't go to a ride you get paid for.

    If you don't like it, don't promote it. Simple.
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    • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
      Originally Posted by Damien Roche View Post

      If you don't like it, don't promote it. Simple.
      NO way.... I didn't even realise I could do that..

      Thanks for saving me.
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      Bare Murkage.........

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  • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
    I wonder, if you had a product on clickbank and someone else sold it as an affiliate...

    And the people who bought the product ended up on your list...

    Would you take them off your list, or assume they are now part of your list?

    Be honest.
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  • Profile picture of the author yves
    I agree that once the customer has been offerered the product in at least one email from the vendor's autoresponder then that should be that. The customer always has the option of going back to the original site where the hoplinked was clicked.

    However, I am glad the OP brought this up because it made me check something out with a product I have been promoting which hasn't been going too well even though I get a lot of traffic. The vendor's site has a free mini course that the cust can take before buying the product and the affiliates are encouraged to use the free course with their promotion.

    The mini course is 6 email lessons spanning over a week.

    I opted in with my link just to check that my hop is kept till the end of the course. Unbelievably, I found that the hop is only kept till the second lesson of the course with the other lessons sending the customer to the site using the vendors own link.

    I actually couldn't believe it. I have sent so much traffic his way and have only had a handful of sales from customer who prob didn't take the free course.

    This way the vendor seems to be keeping up his end of the deal, but when it really matters I get no chance of a sale with the free course.

    The vendor also sends out a newletters every few days at the same time as the free course promoting the same product without my link. I wasn't even too bothered about that I just wanted my hop to be in the free course.

    I'm livid cos I put so much work into it.

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    • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
      Now I do think that is unfair and underhand (and dishonest)

      Originally Posted by yves View Post


      I opted in with my link just to check that my hop is kept till the end of the course. Unbelievably, I found that the hop is only kept till the second lesson of the course with the other lessons sending the customer to the site using the vendors own link.
      I just can't see how affiliates would expect a vendor to keep one affiliates ID in a back up email (especially if they have more than one affiliate) this is a problem with cookies etc being wiped by prospective customers. However I do think they should be sending out just a basic link (not their own ID) so an affiliate can pick up the sale.

      Kim
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  • Profile picture of the author alanmag1983
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  • Profile picture of the author talfighel
    Clearly, there are people here who claim to be Internet marketers. Maybe they have been doing this for a while or are complete NEWBIES. I am not too sure but I am amazed at how some some of these IMers don't have a clue what I was referring to in this LONG thread.

    People should read and understand the topic before posting their comments and have NO CLUE what this or any other thread is all about.

    I am about to stop posting here in this thread because SOME people are..............and you know the rest.

    Tal
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  • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
    It's a shame that some of the poster's in this thread seem to have thought it neccesary to "attack" Jeremy whom after all has only done what everyone else has done and given his opinion.

    Tal your OP came across (to me anyway) as being surprised and disgusted etc that a marketer would dare to offer something else to a prospect that had joined his list through your efforts.

    As someone who has been in this biz for a number of years, I'll tell you how I work the affiliate game.

    For a huge launch (as we had with easymemberpro a couple of years ago) for the first 2 weeks the affiliate who sent the first prospect got the sale. This was important because we had some big affiliates on board who were warming their lists up and I think that's only fair. After the 2 weeks were up, we changed it to last affiliate. (My usual model). Obviously if you use CB you don't have that luxury of doing this which is why a decent affiliate script is so important and you need to be careful if you are promoting your stuff via CB. (I've only recently started using it for my membership book).

    Yes I invariably use an opt in on my sales page, (I'm an Internet marketer remember) and it's important that I try and build my list as much as I can so I'll offer something juicy to try and entice that person to join my list.

    I think the next bit is where I'm getting confused. The way I read it, you're really pissed because I'm going to start marketing to that prospect without your affiliate ID. (Though I'm not sure why you would think I should use your ID rather than any other affiliates). I would use just the usual URL (with no affiliate ID) and hope that the prospect is still cookied with the ID of the affiliate who sent them.

    The thing is, I'm not responsible for the cookie killers that people have on their computers. If the affiliate doesn't get the sale under these circumstances, how on earth can it possibly be my fault?

    Now if your argument is that I'm marketing (in a follow up autoresponder series) a competitive product with my own ID then yes you are perfectly right and that is reprehensible and the vendor should be taken out at Dawn and hung drawn and quartered!!

    At the end of the day I see this as a two way thing, you send me the prospect to buy my product, I reward you by paying you the promised % of the sale.

    That prospect then becomes mine and further down the line I am quite at liberty to try and sell them something else, either another of my own products or something I'm affiliating for that I think they may be interested in.

    Once I've paid you for the sale, I don't owe you as an affiliate anything else. Unfortunately as I've said previously the affiliate system often falls down because of the cookie killers some people have on their machines. This is completely beyond my control.

    There is also the instances where folks will deliberately delete the ID link, these people will then either exchange it for their own, or for some weird reason can't see why someone else would profit from a purchase they have made. (And I know the latter happens).

    With EMP I made the decision to disallow folks to buy from their own affiliate link just so we could prevent the original affiliate from getting screwed.

    That's where I come from when marketing to others anyway, and I make no apologies for it

    Cheers
    Kim
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Kim Standerline View Post

      It's a shame that some of the poster's in this thread seem to have thought it neccesary to "attack" Jeremy whom after all has only done what everyone else has done and given his opinion.

      ...

      That's where I come from when marketing to others anyway, and I make no apologies for it

      Cheers
      Kim
      Kim, I couldn't have put it any better. One of the most sensible posts in
      this whole mess.
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  • Profile picture of the author Gregg Montgomery
    The way I see it, when you got paid for the sale you were paid for the time and effert and everything else you put in to it to get the sale. So in effect you were paid for the lead.

    Thats just the way the system works. Might not be fully fair but thats the way it is.
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