ClickBank soon requiring ALL sales pages to have a ClickBank branded header.

959 replies
ClickBank will soon be requiring all of their vendor sales pages to have ClickBank's own branded header at the top of every sales page.

Here's what it will look like...



They're calling it the "Always on Shopping Portal" and you can read full details here.

What are your thoughts?

Here are a few of my thoughts and concerns...

1.) Having ClickBank's Customer Support link at the top of the page could make refunds much easier, possibly too easy when ClickBank is handling the tickets. Apparently customers will have a choice to contact the vendor or ClickBank. This could be good for customers and what's good for customers is usually good for the vendor in the long run.

2.) Technical issues of various kinds. Having your page in an iFrame can break things, cause issues with analytics, etc. I know ClickBank is hard at work on this though, so I'd suspect any of these issues will subside and be resolved. After all ClickBank wants to make more sales, not less.

3.) The look of my website. Now I will have a logo on top of a logo, that will look really odd. I guess I'll have to redesign it. This could be confusing to visitors and more challenging for branding your own site and sales page.

4.) As time goes on I question if people will immediately see and recognize a ClickBank site and immediately feel like it's trying to sell them something.

5.) ClickBank is testing this branded bar, but I wonder if they'll test it over the long-term and how it will perform 6 months, 1 year, 2 years from now.

6.) Although this is speculation, in the future ClickBank could in theory easily add anything they want to this branded bar. A link to other products, a drop-down menu to their marketplace, whatever they want.

7.) SEO - I guess if your sales page is in an iFrame only when people go through a hoplink you could still SEO the main page and rank for your domain. I'm not clear exactly how ClickBank is implementing the iFrame or javascript code and still have some unanswered questions.

8.) The advantages they stated with this new type of setup are they'll be able to do a streamlined near one-click checkout for repeat customers, and MUCH better analytics, sales page ROI, better funnel insights etc. In addition they can provide some insights when past ClickBank customers land on your page. Some REALLY AWESOME stuff from the sound of it. All of these benefits could be achieved with invisible code though, but it sounds like the branded bar is necessary and coming whether we like it or not.

I suppose the one biggest advantage is ClickBank remains in business. According to them "credit card companies and payment processors are scrutinizing Internet retailers and the quality of products on their platforms". There may be no way around this for ClickBank and this could just be the future of things to come. With change can come opportunity, so I'm looking forward to see how this all plays out.
#always on shopping portal #branded #clickbank #header #pages #requiring #sales #sales page #thoughts
  • Profile picture of the author Digital Hustle
    Initial thoughts, I don't care for it. If I had it my way their branding wouldn't even be on the checkout page.

    I don't think it will make a huge difference in relation to sales. Assuming they leave it as proposed, it will just lead to more awareness that the product is being sold through a "marketplace." Maybe that will provide an ounce of credibility to first-time visitors to a Clickbank-sold product. Or maybe not, depending on which way their research goes and if they run into any Clickbank horror stories. ;-)
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10272199].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author dlane1987
    Not a fan. Won't people just go with JVZoo
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10272561].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author morg2k2
      Each time these giants want to change they normally go forward to increase their own brand awareness and leaving less and less power for their sellers.

      Personally, I don´t like it either and would suggest you to move to a different platform, like JV Zoo for instance.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10272566].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Tom Addams
    Ah.

    I can only imagine that CB intend to dilute the quality of their marketplace with inferior products and services. If so, a stroke of genius.

    - Tom
    Signature

    I Coach: Learn More | My Latest WF Thread: Dead Domains/ Passive Traffic

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10272737].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Brent Stangel
    6.) Although this is speculation, in the future ClickBank could in theory easily add anything they want to this branded bar. A link to other products, a drop-down menu to their marketplace, whatever they want.
    Already in place?

    The ClickBank header is present at the top of all vendor pages, order forms, and thank you pages. It provides a consistent shopping experience for customers with easy access to customer support. The navigation element selected in the header allows the customer to interact with the function directly on the page. The customer will not navigate away from the shopping flow, instead a separate browser window will open or a drop down menu will appear.
    https://support.clickbank.com/entrie...opping-Portal-

    Given the rise of fraud in the performance marketing space, credit card companies and payment processors are scrutinizing Internet retailers and the quality of products on their platforms.
    Bullshit!!

    CB is moving toward an Ebay like platform. Your product will eventually have links to "related" products, "Here's what other buyers bought," and all the rest.

    They are struggling to stay alive...
    Signature
    Get Off The Warrior Forum Now & Don't Come Back If You Want To Succeed!
    All The Real Marketers Are Gone. There's Nothing Left But Weak, Sniveling Wanna-Bees!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10272774].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      Originally Posted by Brent Stangel View Post

      Given the rise of fraud in the performance marketing space, credit card companies and payment processors are scrutinizing Internet retailers and the quality of products on their platforms.
      Bullshit!!
      spin??? LOL

      They are struggling to stay alive...
      From other threads here on the WF, it sounded like they were seriously trying to cull out the garbage products from the marketplace, and this move (IMHO) is going to make that job easier for them.

      Quality vendors will go elsewhere voluntarily, and CB can then cull everything else that is left.

      Done... and done!
      Signature

      Sid Hale
      Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10273010].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author professorrosado
        That's a potential outcome, however, it may be more prudent to adapt.

        I personally, wouldn't like the "look" of a regular website underneath that banner UNLESS the site is made to harmonize with the banner either in sameness or as a contrast.

        All others, should think about using the commonplace "sales page" format which simply integrates nicely with this implementation.

        I believe that Clickbank is trying to survive and that vendors should fall in line with their effort as it just may work! And if it does, I would sure want to be part of that success story.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10273039].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
          Some thoughts:

          1. One big advantage: ClickBank could provide vendors with stats (hits and conversion rate) on their own sales as these are currently only available for affiliate sales.

          2. If the vendor does not make the changes (by November 23) the account will be suspended - but from the Marketplace only. I wonder if there will be a later deadline in which the account is actually closed.

          3. A drawback: the appearance of the vendor-id in the branded ClickBank domain name will make it easier for someone to construct a hoplink and purchase with their own affiliate id.

          4. In theory it is not necessary for the vendor to add the header to the thank-you page as ClickBank can do it for you (as it will do in the first phase). Maybe this is to allow vendors the future possibility of having variations (e.g colour, style) in the header ?

          5. Mention has been made of a possible link to the marketplace in the header. This makes no sense at all with the marketplace in its current form as it is geared to affiliates. I am not sure why ClickBank don't provide a customer marketplace cutting out the stats information and allowing vendors to provide separate titles and descriptions for customers. (Current titles say for example - 'Earn 75% for this dog training book')

          If a link to the marketplace is shown and the vendor-id is used as the affiliate then this could prove profitable as the vendor could earn commission on sales of any product in the marketplace (a bit like Amazon)

          However for an affiliate this would effectively be a 'sales leak'. Maybe a compromise could be provided whereby vendor and affiliate share the commission on such marketplace purchases.

          .
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10273924].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author omnituens
            Originally Posted by Harvey Segal View Post

            Some thoughts:

            .....................

            If a link to the marketplace is shown and the vendor-id is used as the affiliate then this could prove profitable as the vendor could earn commission on sales of any product in the marketplace (a bit like Amazon)

            However for an affiliate this would effectively be a 'sales leak'. Maybe a compromise could be provided whereby vendor and affiliate share the commission on such marketplace purchases.
            ........................

            .
            Have had a quick look at this, the affiliate id is not propagated through to the sales page......

            Would be interesting to know what happens on vendor side...
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10294826].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
          Originally Posted by professorrosado View Post

          I believe that Clickbank is trying to survive and that vendors should fall in line with their effort as it just may work! And if it does, I would sure want to be part of that success story.
          I've been self-employed for over 3 decades now, and have NEVER made a business decision based on "it just may work". Especially when the gamble depended on the execution of someone else's business strategy!

          This move won't directly impact vendors for any given sale, they'll still get paid.

          But... I fully expect that affiliate referrals will definitely be impacted negatively and they are the primary source of traffic to the ClickBank offers. Reduced affiliate traffic will translate to fewer sales - period! ClickBank doesn't actively market those products themselves, and their marketplace is used to recruit more affiliates (i.e. competition), rather than to sell the vendor's products.

          The new header (if it contains any links whatsoever) is essentially a "leak" on the sales page, and no affiliate that values his/her traffic is going to send that traffic to a leaky sales page. There's really no need to wait to see if it "just might work" as long as there are products available from less invasive affiliate platforms.
          Signature

          Sid Hale
          Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10287508].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
            Originally Posted by MilesBaker View Post

            4.) As time goes on I question if people will immediately see and recognize a ClickBank site and immediately feel like it's trying to sell them something.
            Huh?

            Maybe because, if it's a CB site (sales page with a buy button) it IS trying to sell them something?

            You mean the full-volume, autoplay video with no controls, the big red headline and the big orange BUY button are too subtle?

            Yeesh...
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10288360].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author webmarketer
              Lol--"It is designed to sit unobtrusively at the top of vendor pages."

              https://support.clickbank.com/entrie...opping-Portal-

              Above the fold and the first thing seen. Yeah, unobtrusive.

              You already pay them a fee and you still have to advertise them. [Insert snicker here.]
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10288391].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author paulie888
                I think this is only going to negatively impact Clickbank's overall revenue.

                I don't think this change will sit well with affiliates, who are the primary source of traffic to Clickbank offers. Vendors will feel like they don't really control the branding on their sales pages anymore.

                It's going to be interesting to see how Clickbank's business will be impacted by this change over the coming months.


                Originally Posted by webmarketer View Post

                Lol--"It is designed to sit unobtrusively at the top of vendor pages."

                https://support.clickbank.com/entrie...opping-Portal-

                Above the fold and the first thing seen. Yeah, unobtrusive.

                You already pay them a fee and you still have to advertise them. [Insert snicker here.]
                Signature
                >>> Features Jason Fladlien, John S. Rhodes, Justin Brooke, Sean I. Mitchell, Reed Floren and Brad Gosse! <<<
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10294906].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
                  I received an email today telling me it's live, and that I should add the code as soon as possible. Oddly this email referred to the previous emails they have sent me on the subject.

                  I have never received any previous emails on the subject.

                  The only reason I knew about this is Miles Baker's ClickScoop FB group (which by the way you should join if interested in ClickBank) and then his post in the Warriorforum.

                  I've already said about how much I am opposed to this change, even if it worked smoothly as intended. So I won't repeat myself, just to say, after more than 15 years with ClickBank, and probably referring several hundred of vendors to them, I'm sorry to say that I am now planning to move my main product (which is non-IM related) over to another platform. What a pity.
                  Signature
                  ClickBank Vendor?
                  - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
                  - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
                  - Killer Graphics for Your Site
                  SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10294924].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author stevenjcampbell
              Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

              Huh?

              Maybe because, if it's a CB site (sales page with a buy button) it IS trying to sell them something?

              You mean the full-volume, autoplay video with no controls, the big red headline and the big orange BUY button are too subtle?

              Yeesh...
              Hold on there cowboy. You make good points, but have you ever seen those landing pages that funnel them through 2 or more different pages to the finals buying button?

              They often times aren't obnoxious and provide a ton of data.

              Maybe I'm mistaken, but if this bar is on all lagespages, yes it is an issue
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10288719].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
                The fallout is going to be major if they go through with this.

                I don't think the word has spread that widely yet - I believe most vendors don't know about it yet - but I am already aware of several vendors who are looking of switching platform.

                I'll wait and see for now - but I'm potentially ready to move my main CB product over to another platform too. I don't really want to, but the bar on every page is a potential deal breaker too, and especially if they use it to market related products.

                I hope they reconsider.
                Signature
                ClickBank Vendor?
                - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
                - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
                - Killer Graphics for Your Site
                SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10288733].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                Originally Posted by stevenjcampbell View Post

                Hold on there cowboy. You make good points, but have you ever seen those landing pages that funnel them through 2 or more different pages to the finals buying button?

                They often times aren't obnoxious and provide a ton of data.

                Maybe I'm mistaken, but if this bar is on all lagespages, yes it is an issue
                My jibe was at the wording of one point, that people landing on a page might get the idea that there was something for sale.

                People are not stupid. Well, not all of them, anyway. They'll accept "I'm going to show you some neat stuff, stuff you want to know, and then I'm going to make you an offer."

                Whether it's a long form sales letter, webinar, email course, or something else, people realize that the person providing it isn't doing so purely from the goodness of their heart. Even charities have a motive - to get into your pocket and stay there forever.

                As to some of the other objections raised, I see the points and agree with them. (non-control of content, leak from page, etc.)
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10290297].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author greenbay92
            Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

            The new header (if it contains any links whatsoever) is essentially a "leak" on the sales page, and no affiliate that values his/her traffic is going to send that traffic to a leaky sales page. There's really no need to wait to see if it "just might work" as long as there are products available from less invasive affiliate platforms.
            This has the potential to create chaos if wrongly done. Which is why CB needs to implement their banner code seamlessly so that there are no hoplink tracking errors.

            I know from past experience that tiny technical factors (like incorrect code and glitchy scripts) can cause epic fails in on-page function. So I hope for the sake of sanity that CB's programmers have done their homework... because it is critical for the continued involvement of affiliates with their platform.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10288420].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Curtis2011
    Looks like Clickbank is only doing this for legal reasons. I can't imagine how a Clickbank logo at the top of a sales page will ever help conversion rates.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10272828].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Kiwigal
      Originally Posted by Curtis2011 View Post

      Looks like Clickbank is only doing this for legal reasons. I can't imagine how a Clickbank logo at the top of a sales page will ever help conversion rates.
      If they are doing it for legal reasons how come JVZoo and others aren't?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10272865].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
        Because, unlike JVZoo, RAP, W+, Digiresults, Payspree, etc... ClickBank is a RESELLER.


        Originally Posted by Kiwigal View Post

        If they are doing it for legal reasons how come JVZoo and others aren't?
        To list a product on CB, you give them Resell Rights to the product.
        You still have to provide the sales page, thank you page, and product download but if you put a ClickBank button on your page, THEY are the seller.

        Unlike the other systems listed above, ClickBank processes payment into their own Paypal and merchant accounts, and distribute funds to the vendor and to THEIR affiliate if so indicated.

        The other systems all process the payment directly to the vendor, after deducting a fee for their services.

        As the seller (as opposed to just a payment facilitator), ClickBank's liability is much greater with regard to compliance with anti-trust legislation and in particular the FTC's recent changes with regard to enforcement of disclosure requirements of that legislation.
        Signature

        Sid Hale
        Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10272980].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          I don't know the reasons but I'm sure there are reasons.

          CB's site has always been several steps behind available technology and that hasn't changed much that I can see.

          An example of confusion: on the main CB site - two different pages list two different people as "CEO".
          Signature
          Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
          ***
          One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
          what it is instead of what you think it should be.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10272998].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author brettb
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            CB's site has always been several steps behind available technology and that hasn't changed much that I can see.
            ^ Yes this. What has CB done to improve their site since 2010?
            Signature
            ÖŽ FindABlog: Find blogs to comment on, guest posting opportunities and more ÖŽ




            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10311024].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author ClickBank
              Originally Posted by brettb View Post

              ^ Yes this. What has CB done to improve their site since 2010?
              Hi brettb:

              This is a great question. Rather than give you the 5 year version which would be overwhelming, I'll just touch on some of the highlights we've released in the last year and a half:

              1. Subscription upgrades/downgrades/pause billing/reinstate billing via API: Orders API version 1.3
              2. Ability to skin the order form using CSS and images: Advanced Custom Order Forms
              3. Automatic affiliate partnership recommendations with Affiliate Finder: Affiliate Finder
              4. Free trials for recurring products and $0 + Shipping & Handling physical products
              5. Realtime client analytics (used to be about a 4 to 6 hour delay)
              6. New integrated sales reporting hooks to Facebook tracking and generic tracking/retargeting pixels: Integrated Sales Reporting
              7. Expanded commission structures ranging from 0% to 100% with flexibility for different rates on front and back end products
              8. Support for multi-line item shopping transactions (e.g., shopping cart baskets): ClickBank Multi-Line Transactions
              9. Support for selling more than one quantity per item on the order form: Editable Quantities on the Order Form
              10. Ability to sell physical products on the ClickBank platform (no longer restricted to digital only)

              This is a small sample of many new capabilities we have launched, all intended to help our clients grow their businesses.

              I hope this helps,
              The ClickBank Team
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10311581].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

                Hi brettb:

                This is a great question. Rather than give you the 5 year version which would be overwhelming, I’ll just touch on some of the highlights we’ve released in the last year and a half:
                That's what you reply to?

                Wow.

                While you're here, go ahead and explain how hijacking all of your customers' websites is necessary to address the issue of buyers being confused when they see ClickBank on their credit card statements?

                Why are you doing this instead of simply adding the product/vendor name onto the line that identifies the charge? Why aren't you trying the numerous other, far less damaging and invasive ways of addressing that problem (assuming it really is a problem)?

                Why is that problem instead being used to justify hijacking all of your customers' websites... which is ever so convenient when ClickBank is trying to be a "global internet retailer" and claiming that all of your vendors' customers are actually your customers?

                Go ahead and explain that, please. I'll wait.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10312022].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author hitman007
        I agree, it defiantly is not for legal purposes. It's all about branding for them and with more competition raining in on them it's just to build their brand larger.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10292974].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author maxsi
    Thanks.... good info to know about Clickbank.
    I'm very happy to sell my products with SWREG (and not clickbank)
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10274021].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author DavidZin
      Originally Posted by maxsi View Post

      Thanks.... good info to know about Clickbank.
      I'm very happy to sell my products with SWREG (and not clickbank)
      where you do sell products ?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10402834].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Randall Magwood
    Makes no difference to me. Whoever buys from an affiliate of mine i still get the customer info. That's all i want. Plus i have my own homepage to market myself. Plus there are affiliates on other affiliate networks too. The world is not about to end.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10274210].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author anwar001
    It would be a very dumb idea if they implement this. They are probably only thinking of their own branding but it can cause the product owners to consider going somewhere else.

    However, those product owners who already have lot of affiliates promoting their product on CB and are making good sales will be stuck and cannot leave because leaving CB will mean saying goodbye to this whole army of affiliates who are driving sales for them.
    Signature
    Get Hundreds of Super Targeted Traffic in Any Niche from Facebook - 3 Step Organic FB Marketing

    25 Guidelines For Massive Affiliate Success - Whether you are a beginner or an expert, read these principles and refer back to them many times
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10274436].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author surfer30
    If they do so Amazon will too smile
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10288431].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author trevord92
    So many seemingly minor things can affect sales pages, sometimes for the better, other times for the worse.

    No idea ahead of time (otherwise there'd be no need to test).

    So a blanket addition to every single sales page - initially just those sent by an affiliate - could increase or decrease sales.

    Or could mean vendors leave Clickbank altogether, in which case it's up to affiliates to find out as there's no notification system to tell them otherwise.

    Not the brightest move from Clickbank in my view.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10288521].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
    We have run hundreds of thousands of dollars in sales through ClickBank. It's mostly our own traffic. With this change, we're gone. I would understand if it only applied to the traffic coming from ClickBank's hoplinks. But forcing us to put a ClickBank branded header at the top of our website for traffic we're sending ourselves? Nope.

    This is probably a good thing for us, because we should have made the switch to a different payment processor a long time ago. ClickBank has benefited from getting a multiple of the rate any other processor would be getting from us. This was tolerated because the setup was easy and they were generally easy to live with. But they're forcing our hand here.

    When you're running a real business, you need your website to look like YOUR website, not the property of another company like ClickBank. I can't imagine sending a potential business partner to check out our website knowing another company's brand will be waiting for them.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10288544].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author JonathanG
      You nailed it with this Jon:

      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      ... When you're running a real business, you need your website to look like YOUR website, not the property of another company like ClickBank. I can't imagine sending a potential business partner to check out our website knowing another company's brand will be waiting for them.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10295452].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author mcjohn
    [DELETED]
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10288630].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author nicheblogger75
      Originally Posted by mcjohn View Post

      Beginning will do thank you for sharing this useful post, I think than your strategy is very good and correct!
      For my personal thoughts, I will build one big email list which will promote in it my products clickbank
      Before I comment on the Clickbank issue, I was reading the thread and I came across this post and just had to say WHAT?

      Anyway, as far as Clickbank goes, I am in full agreement that they are way behind the times as far as affiliate networks go, and I believe this is a move to increase exposure and keep them alive.

      I can only speak from my own experience but my opinion is putting their brand across the top of vendor websites is a really bad move. It has no benefit for vendors and even less for affiliates. Any affiliate worth their salt won't promote sales pages with leaks, and I would call having a big banner with their name on it at the top of the sales page a MASSIVE leak.

      Less affiliates means less traffic to the sales page which means less sales for the vendor. The end result will be the vendor leaving and the affiliates not wanting to promote those pages.

      Then again, I'm just one person with one opinion. It could be the exact opposite. It could work out great for them.

      I guess we'll just have to stand by and watch it unfold.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10292189].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author julesw
    this is crazy ... need to reconsider CB myself
    Signature
    WIN my Lanparte Smartphone or GoPro Gimbal! Get Ready Get Steady! Watch my Video Here:
    VideoHero.com/win
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10288707].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
    ClickBank has always had an odd arrangement where it is the seller of the product (which you are 'selling' to ClickBank at a wholesale price), but customers are on your site and dealing with you.

    Contrary to the first words on the explanation page, ClickBank is not viewed as a reputable company. That is why affiliates promoting ClickBank offers are banned from Google AdWords and disinvited from other places like Facebook.

    Using visible ClickBank affiliate links on your site can be the kiss of death for your SEO.

    Fraud - always a big problem in the IM niche has been increasing and ClickBank is an easy target.

    With PayPal now extending its refund period to 6 months sellers are no longer safe waiting 60 days before paying out commissions.

    ClickBank was surprisingly transparent by indicating it is being forced to make changes to address the fraud issue and problems caused by poor products (such as a high refund rate).

    Do you see any IM products being promoted on the ClickBank home page? Nope.

    The company needs to turn around its image and attract reputable products from "name" authors.

    This isn't being done to help sellers, provide stats, or anything like that. It is about company survival and there will surely be further steps to try and move ClickBank toward being a brand destination and to move some types of products off the system.

    .
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10288920].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      Brian,

      I think this is "spot on".


      Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

      This isn't being done to help sellers, provide stats, or anything like that. It is about company survival and there will surely be further steps to try and move ClickBank toward being a brand destination and to move some types of products off the system.
      I think that this is only one of many steps being taken to "revamp" their entire business plan, and I think there is still more change to come (or at least should be).

      I think the transition is necessary for corporate survival/success, but I also think that the timing (frequency) of these changes will be critical to their ability to stay afloat until that transition is completed.
      Signature

      Sid Hale
      Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10289085].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
      Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

      Contrary to the first words on the explanation page, ClickBank is not viewed as a reputable company. That is why affiliates promoting ClickBank offers are banned from Google AdWords and disinvited from other places like Facebook.
      Google doesn't allow ANY affiliate links from ANY network to be advertised via Adwords. (I believe what they don't want is thousands of near-duplicate ads from multiple affiliates clogging up their system).


      They allow only sites with substantial unique content.


      Google DOES allow ClickBank *vendors* to advertise their own sites.

      Using visible ClickBank affiliate links on your site can be the kiss of death for your SEO.
      My personal experience says otherwise.

      Of course if you make a page *about* a CB offer, then thousands of others will have done so too, and it will be virtually impossible to get any organic traffic.

      But if you make a page about something else, that contains a substantial amount of unique content, then a CB link that happens to be on the page is not a significant hindrance, certainly no more than any other affiliate link.

      Also: the bar will *hinder* not help with getting CB sites to rank.



      I'd be quite okay if CB required their bar only on the Thank you page, but on the sales/pitch pages

      (a) it's a leak

      (b) it's the most valuable part of the page - why should be required to give them that, even when i'm generating 95% of the traffic myself

      (c) it's hard to enough to make the sale without putting a distraction in the most valuable part of the page

      (d) if they start advertising related offers, their idea of related offers is odd to say the least, I know it will put people off. Some offers may be inappropriate for my audience too.

      (e) it's hindrance, not a help to SEO


      Anyway, like I said, I'm not going to do anything right away, but I hope they reconsider, because if they don't, I'm probably just move my main selling product (which by the way isn't IM related at all) over to a different platform. One day that product will be on CB, next day, on a different platform.

      (the stuff that is IM/CB related, like the links in my sig, would probably get left on CB).
      Signature
      ClickBank Vendor?
      - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
      - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
      - Killer Graphics for Your Site
      SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10289462].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
        Google doesn't allow ANY affiliate links from ANY network to be advertised via Adwords.
        This is not true. For years I have run dozens of affiliate direct links and many thousands of clicks via Adwords.

        But I also don't do this for anything resembling an IM, digital, or health product.

        .
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10290587].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
          ClickBank's Vice President of Product Management, recently recorded a podcast covering this change with Miles Baker of ClickScoop. In that podcast, he addresses exactly what this change entails and the reasons for it.
          The reason given by ClickBank is that new chipped cards used during physical purchases means more credit card fraud will move online. That is previously what happened in Europe.

          Example: in store fraud at WalMart goes down but online purchase fraud at WalMart.com goes up.

          Inexplicably, CB claims having the ClickBank "brand" will let consumers know they are buying from a reputable company and this will somehow address the fraud problem.

          It is a non-sequitur designed to buffalo anyone not thinking about this.

          Isn't that what the huge "Clickbank trust footer" on merchant pages supposed to accomplish?

          If the product seller or affiliate is involved with fraud having the ClickBank name on the page is irrelevant.

          ClickBank says the Javascript isn't just to load the ClickBank banner. CB is collecting data about your site, traffic, and forcing a link to CB. CB is also taking "your" customers and making more of an effort to make sure they know they are "CB's" customers.

          The logical extension of this is to have ClickBank host the sales pages so it is clear to customers they are buying from ClickBank. Additionally, it will allow CB to make use of end-to-end affiliate to sales data.

          CB is envious of Amazon, the data it collects, and customers going straight to Amazon as a trusted seller to search for products to buy. That model is where this step, the shopping cart, the ability to sell physical products, etc., is heading.

          I'm not saying this is good or bad. It will just be different. But after listening to the podcast I'm not buying the claim that online fraud is the reason why a banner and Javascript file promoting CB and feeding data to CB must be on vendor pages.

          For affiliates, I am not sure it matters.

          For sellers some already have their products on CB, and Amazon, and Google, etc. The question is how much control to give up of your own website to have it be an extension of Clickbank?

          Example: one product promoted on the CB home page is the 20 minute body. Some pages in that site link to a Clickbank check out page. Other pages link to buying the book on Amazon. It would be fraudulent to have Clickbank branding at the top of every page, but confusing to have Clickbank branding only at the top of certain pages.

          No doubt CB is going to lose some sellers.

          .
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10290589].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
    As much as ClickBank has pissed off so many Internet Marketers within the last few years.... I think that their previous actions are pale in comparison as to what they are about to do.

    I hope word about spreads quickly and that CB comes to their senses about going forward with such an idiotic idea.

    There is still a glimmer of hope that I have for CB, but like many of you, I will not come near it if this goes through.

    I truly hope that word about this spreads and that they reconsider.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10289228].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    If they're going to force a CB branded header they might as well host the page.

    I'm trying to figure out why anyone would pay $50 to promote another brand. Above the fold usually has the highest CTR, so now your going to promote a link to a support page you don't control.

    What a joke.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10289238].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author ClickBank
    Hi All,

    ClickBank's Vice President of Product Management, recently recorded a podcast covering this change with Miles Baker of ClickScoop. In that podcast, he addresses exactly what this change entails and the reasons for it. I would recommend listening to that interview as it provides a great deal of detail about many of the points being raised in this thread.

    ClickScoop Podcast #27 : ClickBank's Biggest Change in Years with Chris McClave

    Thanks,
    The ClickBank Team
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10290224].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author agmccall
      Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

      I would recommend listening to that interview as it provides a great deal of detail about many of the points being raised in this thread.

      Thanks,
      The ClickBank Team
      It really doesn't, This banner heading will just be the beginning. Unless this system will guarantee affiliate commissions, especially if someone clicks the marketplace in the header and purchases a different product, then you can kiss the affiliates good bye and the vendors are sure to follow.

      Just not enough concrete information for me to promote any clickbank products right now.

      This could be a great opportunity for savvy marketers to contact vendors on clickbank and encourage and help them move to a different platform, for a small fee of course

      al
      Signature

      "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10290287].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author ClickBank
        Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

        It really doesn't,
        Hi agmccall:

        Thank you for your feedback. Which points did you feel the interview failed to address? Affiliate attribution for return clicks to the marketplace?

        Thanks,
        The ClickBank Team
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10290299].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author agmccall
          Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

          Hi agmccall:

          Thank you for your feedback. Which points did you feel the interview failed to address? Affiliate attribution for return clicks to the marketplace?

          Thanks,
          The ClickBank Team
          If we send someone to a sales page and they see your link to the marketplace and follow that link and buy something else, will we get the commission.

          No matter what anyone says, this is just the beginning, no telling what will be in the header in the future.

          al
          Signature

          "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10290504].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author trevord92
      Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

      Hi All,
      ClickBank's Vice President of Product Management, recently recorded a podcast covering this change with Miles Baker of ClickScoop. In that podcast, he addresses exactly what this change entails and the reasons for it. I would recommend listening to that interview as it provides a great deal of detail about many of the points being raised in this thread.
      ClickScoop Podcast #27 : ClickBank's Biggest Change in Years with Chris McClave
      Thanks,
      The ClickBank Team
      Instead of 40 minutes recording it might help if there was a transcript that I could find the relevant parts in a matter of seconds.

      It would also help if Clickbank had the courtesy to announce this major change when we log in to our accounts - without this forum I wouldn't have even known about the change.

      And I still don't know what (if any) testing has been done or the effect it will have on previously carefully crafted and tested sales letters to have a big banner stuck at the top of the page or whether it will stay there when people scroll through the page.

      Or what effect it will have on conversions.

      To my mind, it's just a change that is being forced on me as an affiliate and if I don't like it, tough.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10290717].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author depotgang
    Clickbank's main purpose is to improve their customers experience and protect their merchant accounts.

    In many ways vendors are working against the common good of the Clickbank environment. I am surprised they have been able to maintain their viability for as long as they have...merchants are horrible to deal with. They may be big in our eye's but their problems and complaint rates must be huge compared to lets say a Walmart...Walmart processes billions with their merchants...

    So we can bitch all we want...they need to protect their business and in a way protect ours too.
    Signature

    Learn how to start your own Solo Ad Business without an autoresponder or build a list. It's Fast Fun and Profitable. https://soloadmasterclass.com/

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10291032].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      Originally Posted by depotgang View Post

      Clickbank's main purpose is to improve their customers experience
      That's just the thing - they're not ClickBank's customers. They're our customers. We cultivate traffic or pay affiliates to do so, sending those people to our website where they buy our product. ClickBank is a payment processor and affiliate tracking platform.

      and protect their merchant accounts.
      If that was the goal here, they would boot vendors with high refund/chargeback rates and leave the rest of us alone. Forcing this change on vendors whose stats are not problematic doesn't seem to be justified by that argument.

      In many ways vendors are working against the common good of the Clickbank environment. I am surprised they have been able to maintain their viability for as long as they have...merchants are horrible to deal with.
      Blanket statements like this are rarely helpful or accurate.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10291099].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        That's just the thing - they're not ClickBank's customers. They're our customers. We cultivate traffic or pay affiliates to do so, sending those people to our website where they buy our product. ClickBank is a payment processor and affiliate tracking platform.
        Jon, please re-read the thread and ClickBank's legal terms. You may also want to listen to the podcast. They're CB's customers, and CB's affiliates (who CB pays), and buyers are making purchases from CB and not you.

        You are the wholesale manufacturer of a product which you are selling to CB, which CB then sells as a retailer to end users.

        .
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10291390].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
          Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

          Jon, please re-read the thread and ClickBank's legal terms. You may also want to listen to the podcast. They're CB's customers, and CB's affiliates (who CB pays), and buyers are making purchases from CB and not you.

          You are the wholesale manufacturer of a product which you are selling to CB, which CB then sells as a retailer to end users.

          .
          I am aware of the legal technicalities.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10291412].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
          This is 100% accurate, and KEY to understanding both the short and long term plans that ClickBank may have...

          Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

          Jon, please re-read the thread and ClickBank's legal terms. You may also want to listen to the podcast. They're CB's customers, and CB's affiliates (who CB pays), and buyers are making purchases from CB and not you.

          You are the wholesale manufacturer of a product which you are selling to CB, which CB then sells as a retailer to end users.
          This is not new. It has always been their business model.

          They grew their business much like Walmart and Amazon (or any other retailer, for that matter)... on the backs of the merchants who liked the idea of someone else doing all the merchandising of their product(s).

          Walmart and Amazon have customer oriented marketplaces (storefronts) where they "arrange the shelves", "display the merchandise", present "impulse buys" at the checkout counter, etc.

          While both of these have altered their business models to include affiliates (outside sales reps) to extend their reach into the marketplace, ClickBank has always relied totally on affiliates to sell "door to door".

          Merchants are agreeable to the arrangement, simply because it takes away all of the headaches of running a retail business - merchant accounts, payment processing, handling refunds, consumer fraud, recruiting/managing outside sales reps, etc.

          But... for this to work, the retailer ultimately decides what products they will carry, how they display the products in their marketplace, how they protect themselves from liability, how they structure their payment plan for outside sales reps, etc.

          ClickBank (to date) has NO consumer focused marketplace. The merchant is still responsible for his own "store display". They have historically been a retailer with NO storefront.

          Until recently at ClickBank, there has been (virtually) NO control over individual product quality, nor truth in advertising (merchant hype).

          We have seen some of that change over the past year and a half, or so.


          The new ClickBank header will serve to brand the product as a "ClickBank product" in the mind of the buyer.

          Unlike say Amazon, who has a central site (a single domain) where consumers can go to search for products by category, ClickBank will essentially have a "storefront" that spans a huge number of domains. Of course, as a retailer, they want that additional exposure, but they are NOT going to want to project a negative image. Is it any wonder that they have been culling out a number of the old products and have made it much harder to get listed in the first place?

          Long term, we may see ClickBank move away from the direct selling model to create a consumer oriented marketplace (vis a vis the Amazon and Walmart storefronts), eliminating the need for merchants to maintain their own sales and/or download pages.

          They already manage the outside sales force and if they decide to create their own consumer focused marketplace, the new ClickBank header could be the initial doorway to get consumers into that space.

          Have you ever purchased anything from Amazon? Do you have a customer account with them? Do you receive promotional emails from Amazon?

          Maybe I'm reading too much into this latest change at ClickBank, but if you don't ask questions like these when making your own business plans... you ultimately get caught with your pants down.

          Not a pretty sight.
          Signature

          Sid Hale
          Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10292694].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
            Looking at the new marketplace, if ClickBank wants to emulate Amazon with merchant products under the ClickBank roof, with recommended other products to purchase, then CB (like Amazon) also needs to ensure affiliates receive a CB-wide commission for purchases and not strictly a commission for the clicked product that led a buyer to the marketplace.

            For sellers it is now an Amazon type situation, but worse. With Amazon sellers can sell on Amazon and also sell on their own website. The ClickBank banner prevents this. A seller may have to consider multiple sites, or use of subdomains as ClickBank seeks to capitalize on your hard work in developing a domain name, website and traffic and having that investment now lead to the CB marketplace.

            To rub salt in the wound you have to pay CB for this opportunity. While this may still pencil out for sellers due to the reach of CB affiliates, this circles back to my original point of whether affiliates will continue to drive traffic to CB offers if there no marketplace-wide commission.

            For affiliates, it is similar to sending traffic to Amazon but only getting credit for a purchase of the one product that got the click.

            .
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296250].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author silvacourses
          Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

          Jon, please re-read the thread and ClickBank's legal terms. You may also want to listen to the podcast. They're CB's customers, and CB's affiliates (who CB pays), and buyers are making purchases from CB and not you.

          You are the wholesale manufacturer of a product which you are selling to CB, which CB then sells as a retailer to end users.

          .
          I am not "selling to ClickBank." I advertise and make the sale to the customer, and ClickBank receives a payment for the service they provide. The services they provide are processing the payment, and occasionally finding an affiliate to sell something for us. ClickBank doesn't do the selling, at least not on our site.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10297250].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author vishwa
    I think it is their new branding strategy and also to lure the advertisers to use their platform.
    Signature
    Techbizmasters.com- Blogging, Technology, and Digital Marketing
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10291484].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
    For content creators there are companies like Udemy, I GET THAT, but CB can't really try to be more like them when the business model is completely different. If I wanted to go to Udemy or Amazon it would be easy to do so. I like CB because of the way it is.

    The header thing is a deal breaker.... I would never promote or sell products via CB if this happens.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10291656].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author TonyDong
    [DELETED]
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10291741].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
      Example: one product promoted on the CB home page is the 20 minute body. Some pages in that site link to a Clickbank check out page. Other pages link to buying the book on Amazon. It would be fraudulent to have Clickbank branding at the top of every page, but confusing to have Clickbank branding only at the top of certain pages.
      I think this is a very good question

      Imagine a massive site that sells a product through CB on some pages. Do they put the banner only on some pages? All pages? Have inconsistent design? What happens if you go non-sales page (non CB branded) to sales page (branded), and then back again - does the branding appear/disappear/reappear as necessary?



      I also wonder if the CB branding is suddenly going to put some people out of compliance with other affiliate programs or trademarks/tos.... Imagine a person reaches a CB site via a hop link. They're inside CB's branded frames now. Then the user follows a link, or series of links, to reach some other third party site. The CB branding now needs to be turned off as the visitor leaves (presumably the vendor needs to make sure the link breaks out of frames - something they didn't previously need to consider) or else there's a CB frame around Amazon or whatever! Oops - bad news for both the vendor & CB.



      And couple of other things that came to mind.

      1. The cookie notice pop-up that we are being strong-armed to add to our sites by various third parties - will this conflict with the CB branding? At the very least, I think it might cover it up (will CB be okay about that?) unless CB are very very careful with their coding. ... plus, even if there's no conflict, I can see a big proportion of the screen being lost to these 2 things before we even start with the actual content.

      2. Some vendors are spending big money on advertising their sites & brands. I wonder how how they will be spending that money advertising a CB-branded page.
      Signature
      ClickBank Vendor?
      - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
      - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
      - Killer Graphics for Your Site
      SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10291771].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author rossle
    As a former Clickbank vendor myself, we caught wind of this a while ago and immediately recognised the downsides.


    The upsides - none as far as we could see.


    Downsides - confusing branding, a leak in our sales page, no benefits whatsoever.


    This is Clickbank's analysis of the benefits:


    1. A consistent shopping experience supported by ClickBank and ClickBank’s trusted Internet Retailer reputation
    2. Continuous support for products sold on ClickBank
    3. A smooth shopping experience, as customers do not have to jump in between platforms
    4. A consistent, curated shopping experience for a vendor’s product offerings on the ClickBank marketplace
    Now, call me cynical, but if the above does not sound like the most desperate justification for this new change, then I don't know what does. There is no substance or real truth here.


    As a result, we have left Clickbank and moved to clickbetter.com and took along a decent chunk of affiliates with us too.


    Goodbye Clickbank, never again.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10292417].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author agmccall
    Now with warrior plus hosting sales pages independent of the warrior forum I think lots of vendors will move there. I hope they do as the simple metrics such as # of sales and refund rate% spelled out in black and white are extremely important for affiliates.

    If warrior plus or jvzoo could capture some of the "Other than IM" niches it could be a real game changer and eye opener for clickbank

    al
    Signature

    "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10292434].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by rossle View Post

      As a former Clickbank vendor myself, we caught wind of this a while ago and immediately recognised the downsides.


      The upsides - none as far as we could see.


      Downsides - confusing branding, a leak in our sales page, no benefits whatsoever.


      This is Clickbank's analysis of the benefits:


      1. A consistent shopping experience supported by ClickBank and ClickBank's trusted Internet Retailer reputation
      2. Continuous support for products sold on ClickBank
      3. A smooth shopping experience, as customers do not have to jump in between platforms
      4. A consistent, curated shopping experience for a vendor's product offerings on the ClickBank marketplace
      Now, call me cynical, but if the above does not sound like the most desperate justification for this new change, then I don't know what does. There is no substance or real truth here.


      As a result, we have left Clickbank and moved to clickbetter.com and took along a decent chunk of affiliates with us too.


      Goodbye Clickbank, never again.
      This is the choice offline producers have had since long before the Internet.

      Am I better served by going through a wholesaler, or direct to market?

      Rossle made his choice. You other CB sellers have the same choice.

      When CB first came on the scene, they solved a huge problem for small-time entrepreneurs. That was getting access to credit card orders. Merchants/banks simply refused to give merchant accounts to online sellers out of fear of fraud. Enter CB, saying to the banks "you don't have to hand out 10,000 merchant accounts to sellers who may not be there tomorrow - give one to us, and we'll deal with it."

      Suddenly, for $50 anyone could peddle their goods on the Internet. I still have my CB account, even though it's been fifteen years since I listed anything with them.

      Times have changed. If CB does something that doesn't work for your business, you have alternatives. Leave this pity party turned bitch session and make the best decision you can for your business.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10292477].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Mikesweeney
        "The Clickbank Header is great for vendors!" - Said no one ever...



        Time to switch to JV Zoo...
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10295065].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Okane
          I'm running a membership site with over 1k customers. My refund rate is below 1% and there are only a few chargebacks per year.

          I hope CB doesn't expect me to put their HUGE banner thingy on top of the navigation bar of my carefully designed site.

          Members would no longer be able to bookmark specific pages on my site (for example useful forum post) because it's now in an iframe.

          Members would see super ugly URLs in their browser navigation tabs all the time.

          Being in a non-IM niche, the name "Clickbank" doesn't bring the right associations to mind. Sounds like Marketing, Money, Spam... and has NOTHING to do with my niche. Very likely, it will repell some potential customers from taking a closer look at the site.

          I could go on...
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10295385].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author julesw
            Originally Posted by Okane View Post


            I hope CB doesn't expect me to put their HUGE banner thingy on top of the navigation bar of my carefully designed site.

            Members would no longer be able to bookmark specific pages on my site (for example useful forum post) because it's now in an iframe.
            Far as i know it will only appear on the funnel pages - sales .. upsell .. thankyou etc not the content pages. Though it does appear on a separate landing page post clicking exit intent banner

            I have had that ugly thing appear on my site last night and that is the case.Banner - Not on content pages.
            Signature
            WIN my Lanparte Smartphone or GoPro Gimbal! Get Ready Get Steady! Watch my Video Here:
            VideoHero.com/win
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10295459].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
            Originally Posted by Okane View Post

            Members would no longer be able to bookmark specific pages on my site (for example useful forum post) because it's now in an iframe.

            Members would see super ugly URLs in their browser navigation tabs all the time.

            Being in a non-IM niche, the name "Clickbank" doesn't bring the right associations to mind. Sounds like Marketing, Money, Spam... and has NOTHING to do with my niche. Very likely, it will repell some potential customers from taking a closer look at the site.

            I could go on...
            If CB have to insist on some element of their branding appearing on every vendor's site, I think that they should have done using inline elements (everybody adds a JS that adds a CB header, or better yet a CB footer, as an *element* of the page) - rather than FRAMEs/IFRAMEs. Frames are just about the worst way to implement this.

            Problems with iframes:

            1.Bookmark's don't work, as mentioned by trevord92

            2. SEO is seriously damaged

            3. Vendor's branding of their domains is lost

            4. URLs are horrible

            5. The vendor's nickname (which is usually some meaningless codename that has nothing to do with the product) appears in the URL. For example, which is better:

            info.clickbank.net/wildcom2
            or
            ebookcompiler.com


            info.clickbank.net/20mbody
            or
            20minutebody.com

            info.clickbank.net/duncanptp
            or
            photoshop-tutorials-plus.net

            6. Potential problem of framing unintended site.

            If a vendor has a link to a site which is not meant to be framed by ClickBank, they need to remember to include TARGET="_top" or TARGET="_blank" in all hyperlinks. Otherwise the site they are linking to will appear in a CB frame, even if not intended to.

            Note: existing vendor pages may not include TARGET= as it was not required before (so you need to check all your pages and all your hyperlinks).

            If you do frame a site that you do not intend to, be aware:
            (a) If it's a site that you are affiliate linking to (say Amazon or something) you may be violating the Amazon TOS
            (b) If the link which leaves the frame behind is an ad, you are most likely violating the ad network's TOS
            (c) Framing third party sites without consent is at least ugly, and in a few cases has led to people being sued in the past - see http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/Framing.htm

            Also be aware that it doesn't necessary have to be a direct pather

            e.g, let's say V is your vendor page, C is another content site you control, and A is a third party site like Amazon

            Prior to the change a person could follow this path if they arrived via CB hop link

            hop link -> V -> C -> A

            In the new CB system, this could happen of you haven't included TARGET=

            hop link -> V (inside CB frames) -> C (wrongly inside CB frames) -> A (even more wrongly inside CB frames).

            7. Again if you don't include TARGET=_top is there a possiblity of a CB frame within a frame?

            Imagine V1 is vendor 1, and he has a hop link to vendor 2

            Could this happen?

            hop -> V1 (inside CB frame) -> hop -> V2 (inside a new CB frame, but also within the original CB frame).

            8. I don't think FRAMEs/IFRAMEs play nice with phones & mobiles. I'm not knowledgeable enough about this to say, but a couple of people have told there are issues


            9. If somebody uses Social Media (like Facebook Like button) to share a vendor's URL, it used to work. I understand the new info.clickbank.net/... URLs are already flagged as spam.by Facebook and Disqus.


            10. I don't know if CB is using FRAMEs or IFRAMEs. If the former - FRAMEs are obsoleted as of HTML 5!
            Signature
            ClickBank Vendor?
            - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
            - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
            - Killer Graphics for Your Site
            SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10295525].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
              Strangely enough I don't find the branded header all that obtrusive. And when I now return to my site I hardly notice it.

              Far more important is the loss of my domain name. A carefully chosen domain name is a key factor in establishing what your product is about and in beating the competition.

              Maybe we need to think about adding the domain name to our own sales page headers.

              Regarding the links in the branded header

              1. The link to Customer Support

              Currently this is not particularly useful.

              The options are

              a) Question about this product
              With the obvious answer "Please review the vendor page below for support with this product"
              Optionally the Customer Service Web Site link from the Contact Information in the ClickBank account could be added here.

              b) Questions about an existing order
              This is of no use to the regular visitor, only to someone who has purchased and has lost details of how to contact ClickBank. But now he may struggle to recall the site as the domain name will not have been shown. Also any bookmarks will just show "ClickBank | A Global Internet Retailer"


              2. The link to Marketplace

              This takes you to the Featured Products and these do not carry an affiliate link. My suggestion in an earlier post was that commission could be split between the affiliate and the vendor (of the original product).

              Note that ClickBank make the same profit with or without the affiliate commission.

              Pursuing this further the commission could appear in our transaction reports with an indication that it was a marketplace purchase (via the branded header).

              For an affiliate especially seeing the odd sale of such products would be a major boost to their promotion efforts as well as reducing lapses into dormancy and speeding up the passage to meet the Customer Distribution Requirement.



              Moving on to the header which appears on the page with Featured Products. It has links to
              a. Marketplace
              b. Customer Support
              c. Create Account
              d. Login

              (a) is, as I mentioned in my earlier post, a Marketplace geared to affiliates (not customers).

              (c) and therefore (d) are confusing. Customers will think they need to have an account (e.g like Amazon)


              Moving back to the branded header I suggest that there should be a link (maybe make the word ClickBank linkable) which takes you to a page where ClickBank reinforce their credibility e.g from their About ClickBank section

              "As a top 100 online retailer with 200 million customers, ClickBank sells digital products worldwide created by entrepreneurs. From advice for getting in shape to healthy cooking recipes and dating advice, ClickBank delivers digital lifestyle products to customers in 190 countries."


              .
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10295928].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author TweetPilot
                Originally Posted by Harvey Segal View Post

                Strangely enough I don't find the branded header all that obtrusive. And when I now return to my site I hardly notice it.
                Got to say I find this surprising. It's the first thing I see when landing on my page. It doesn't match the design and the site no longer screams 'MY BRAND' but the first thing people see is 'Clickbank'.

                With the product not being in the IM niche, most people don't know who Clickbank are and they're freaking out. What's happened to 'MY BRAND'?

                I've already put the 'wheels in motion' to move all my vendor activity from Clickbank.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296208].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Stephen Carter
                something that i haven't seen people recognizing in this thread is that the current technical implementation that ClickBank has offered - the mandatory javascript that goes onto your vendor pages - is NOT designed to add a CB branded logo and links to the top of your page. instead it instantly redirects the visitor to the CB Always On Shopping Portal so they never even see your domain.

                so regardless of whether you are dealing with hoplinks or not, your vendor pages ALWAYS appear on the shopping portal site.

                this means that if you drive traffic to your own domain it gets redirected to the CB site. needless to say, this is pretty ridiculous.

                especially when you realize that because your vendor pages are iframed any cookies your site depends upon to function properly will cease to exist for some browsers, like IE.

                this is why CB suggest that you have your web developer implement a P3P privacy protocol to allow for those cookies to be accepted by browsers that demand a privacy policy before they can regard those cookies as legit. this means EVERY CB vendor really needs to address this problem and most won't even realize there IS a problem because most won't read the technical implementation of this:

                https://support.clickbank.com/entrie...entation-Guide

                so loss of cookies are an issue for IE browsers. but there is a "fix" (although it is highly confusing one because the P3P standard is ignored by all browsers other than IE and IE itself doesn't strictly enforce the protocol). however for some other browsers, like Safari, there is no robust fix for this issue.

                so that's cookies. but you should also expect that there will be other unanticipated problems due to the iframing procedure which was never intended to be used to encapsulate entire websites. nobody in their right mind would attempt to iframe tens of thousands of separate websites that were never constructed to work within an iframe and not believe there might be some very real technical problems that are simply not worth the vendor's attempts to try to fix.

                hopefully ClickBank comes to their senses and abandons the iframe approach. that's the very LEAST they ought to be doing here. i can see their platform surviving a branding implementation whereby they force all vendors to add some javascript so pull in a header. but redirecting all traffic to an iframed portal? that's never going to be an acceptable long term strategy.

                ClickBank needs to wake up now and fix this.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296347].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author TheWebGuy
                  Originally Posted by Stephen Carter View Post

                  something that i haven't seen people recognizing in this thread is that the current technical implementation that ClickBank has offered - the mandatory javascript that goes onto your vendor pages - is NOT designed to add a CB branded logo and links to the top of your page. instead it instantly redirects the visitor to the CB Always On Shopping Portal so they never even see your domain.

                  so regardless of whether you are dealing with hoplinks or not, your vendor pages ALWAYS appear on the shopping portal site.

                  this means that if you drive traffic to your own domain it gets redirected to the CB site. needless to say, this is pretty ridiculous.

                  especially when you realize that because your vendor pages are iframed any cookies your site depends upon to function properly will cease to exist for some browsers, like IE.

                  this is why CB suggest that you have your web developer implement a P3P privacy protocol to allow for those cookies to be accepted by browsers that demand a privacy policy before they can regard those cookies as legit. this means EVERY CB vendor really needs to address this problem and most won't even realize there IS a problem because most won't read the technical implementation of this:

                  https://support.clickbank.com/entrie...entation-Guide

                  so loss of cookies are an issue for IE browsers. but there is a "fix" (although it is highly confusing one because the P3P standard is ignored by all browsers other than IE and IE itself doesn't strictly enforce the protocol). however for some other browsers, like Safari, there is no robust fix for this issue.

                  so that's cookies. but you should also expect that there will be other unanticipated problems due to the iframing procedure which was never intended to be used to encapsulate entire websites. nobody in their right mind would attempt to iframe tens of thousands of separate websites that were never constructed to work within an iframe and not believe there might be some very real technical problems that are simply not worth the vendor's attempts to try to fix.

                  hopefully ClickBank comes to their senses and abandons the iframe approach. that's the very LEAST they ought to be doing here. i can see their platform surviving a branding implementation whereby they force all vendors to add some javascript so pull in a header. but redirecting all traffic to an iframed portal? that's never going to be an acceptable long term strategy.

                  ClickBank needs to wake up now and fix this.

                  ...If Clickbank wants recognition so people know they've bought from Clickbank all that's needed is branded buy now buttons ...or putting something near the buttons that says "secure payment by Clickbank". Plus many other ways. Seriously though, there are so many other ways to fix this other than putting a header at the top of all of our sites with their brand!

                  Think about it...

                  How much traffic is run through Clickbank sites? Tons.

                  How do a lot of vendors sell products ...delayed buttons after a presentation.

                  But our lists and people from media buys will now instantly recognize the Clickbank header ...know it's a pitch and not even give it a chance. The reason we delay the button is to get them interested in the product, give them helpful advice, then sell them additional info/products if they're still interested. But now people won't even give our videos/sales pages a chance.

                  A lot of affiliates and vendors only sell Clickbank products too in email marketing. The list will now go stale a lot sooner ...even if you are sending them to great content/offers/etc.

                  The header will kill Clickbank and conversions over time. ...and that fact that they added links in their header sent sooo much traffic away (trust me I know ...they put that crap on two of my sites and it killed my conversions already).
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296373].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Michele Miller
            Originally Posted by Okane View Post

            I'm running a membership site with over 1k customers. My refund rate is below 1% and there are only a few chargebacks per year.

            I hope CB doesn't expect me to put their HUGE banner thingy on top of the navigation bar of my carefully designed site.

            Members would no longer be able to bookmark specific pages on my site (for example useful forum post) because it's now in an iframe.

            Members would see super ugly URLs in their browser navigation tabs all the time.

            Being in a non-IM niche, the name "Clickbank" doesn't bring the right associations to mind. Sounds like Marketing, Money, Spam... and has NOTHING to do with my niche. Very likely, it will repell some potential customers from taking a closer look at the site.

            I could go on...
            Totally agree, especially that the name Clickbank doesn't bring the right associations to mind. I have always thought that.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10299619].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Okane
              So what's the status now?

              As I see it, Clickbank did NOT cancel or stop the ugly banner thing, at least from the vendor point of view.

              Vendors are still required to add the Javascript snippet to their sales pages. From my CB vendor account: "The Always On Shopping Portal Header is required on all customer-facing pages."

              And as soon as the Javascript is there, the Clickbank banner will also appear again for all affiliates linking to those sales pages.

              So, nothing changed?
              They are not listening to the turmoil?
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10299775].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Michele Miller
                I'm seeing that message in my accounts too. It's absolute BS in my opinion.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10299982].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author emilsb
                Originally Posted by Okane View Post

                So what's the status now?

                As I see it, Clickbank did NOT cancel or stop the ugly banner thing, at least from the vendor point of view.

                Vendors are still required to add the Javascript snippet to their sales pages. From my CB vendor account: "The Always On Shopping Portal Header is required on all customer-facing pages."

                And as soon as the Javascript is there, the Clickbank banner will also appear again for all affiliates linking to those sales pages.

                So, nothing changed?
                They are not listening to the turmoil?
                Do you really expect them to listen and change?

                A new CEO is there, new management is coming with big changes out of the blue. We can all assume either they're in some internal trouble of some sort, OR that they are taking a huge gamble now, a quantum leap toward different business, and expecting some big payout next. The new management most likely brought this thing up, because it's a clear deviation from the old line. They're moving fast in uncharted waters. That's the kind of changes new management brings on the table.

                So now, how could we all expect them to revert their decision that quick?

                It would show to everyone in the company, that their decisions are bad from the start. That they are weak (if reverting), and if they do it, they will be forced to leave that seat.

                Once you've done something like this, I don't think there's a going back.

                The little I know about corporate boards and new CEO's, is telling me one thing. They aren't going to give up on this, no matter what. Nobody will risk breaking their necks by reverting now. Within companies, there's always people.

                No - this is far from locked and loaded. It already went fully through the barrel, and it ain't coming back.

                P.S. I've made my point in this thread, outlined my opinion against this change. But I know it's just my point and makes little to no difference. I personally don't have any real hope that they are going listen. Time will tell.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10300102].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author TweetPilot
                  Originally Posted by emilsb View Post

                  Do you really expect them to listen and change?

                  A new CEO is there, new management is coming with big changes out of the blue. We can all assume either they're in some internal trouble of some sort, OR that they are taking a huge gamble now, a quantum leap toward different business, and expecting some big payout next. The new management most likely brought this thing up, because it's a clear deviation from the old line. They're moving fast in uncharted waters. That's the kind of changes new management brings on the table.

                  So now, how could we all expect them to revert their decision that quick?

                  It would show to everyone in the company, that their decisions are bad from the start. That they are weak (if reverting), and if they do it, they will be forced to leave that seat.

                  Once you've done something like this, I don't think there's a going back.

                  The little I know about corporate boards and new CEO's, is telling me one thing. They aren't going to give up on this, no matter what. Nobody will risk breaking their necks by reverting now. Within companies, there's always people.

                  No - this is far from locked and loaded. It already went fully through the barrel, and it ain't coming back.

                  P.S. I've made my point in this thread, outlined my opinion against this change. But I know it's just my point and makes little to no difference. I personally don't have any real hope that they are going listen. Time will tell.
                  Completely agree. They've jumped on a couple of times with some BS reply that's from the politicians handbook on how to avoid concerns and questions of the public.

                  I've now moved a few products from their platform and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10300235].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Michele Miller
                Can we now contact affiliates in our CB accounts? I would feel bad to switch processors simply because of my affiliates. I just think a Clickbank banner will look suspicious and out of place on all my sites, and the name itself sounds "spammy". For sure I will lose sales. Most of my sites are in the medical field.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10300249].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author TweetPilot
                  Originally Posted by Michele Miller View Post

                  Can we now contact affiliates in our CB accounts? I would feel bad to switch processors simply because of my affiliates. I just think a Clickbank banner will look suspicious and out of place on all my sites, and the name itself sounds "spammy". For sure I will lose sales. Most of my sites are in the medical field.
                  If you do plan on moving them perhaps set a date and put this on any JV pages you have and also send it out to any JV lists. At list that'll give affiliates a chance to join the new program.

                  You could even be bold and put this date on your Clickbank listing if you're worried affiliates won't see it.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10300281].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
                  The problem with that thinking, Michele

                  Originally Posted by Michele Miller View Post

                  Can we now contact affiliates in our CB accounts? I would feel bad to switch processors simply because of my affiliates. I just think a Clickbank banner will look suspicious and out of place on all my sites, and the name itself sounds "spammy". For sure I will lose sales. Most of my sites are in the medical field.
                  ...is that they are not YOUR affiliates. They are ClickBank's affiliates !!!

                  You have always left yourself vulnerable by letting someone else control those affiliates - probably your greatest source of traffic/sales.

                  You're not alone.

                  In terms of numbers, most vendors take the easy route and simply list their product with an affiliate network in the hopes that the network will supply enough quality affiliates to maintain a sufficient number of sales to satisfy their needs.

                  A few succeed, but it's a crap shoot .

                  Even if they see some level of success, taking the passive approach to recruiting affiliates means they are probably leaving a lot of money on the table. They have little/no control over which affiliates choose their product(s) to promote (and as we've seen with ClickBank's recent move... also no control over the business strategy of the affiliate network itself).

                  Using an affiliate network to get your first affiliates, for your very first product launch, is understandable - but it is very risky to become dependent on that platform exclusively. What happens when you're ready to launch your second product? Shouldn't you be contacting those who have already had some success promoting your first product to get them to promote your subsequent products? ...or do you simply roll the dice, yet again? Doesn't building your own network of affiliates give you more control, and contribute more to building a real business?

                  The affiliate networks give you no way to do that. They really don't want you to be able to contact your affiliates directly, simply because that would reduce your need for their services. They would have fewer new product releases, and therefore, less attraction for new affiliates for their network.
                  Signature

                  Sid Hale
                  Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10300307].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Michele Miller
                    Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

                    The problem with that thinking, Michele



                    ...is that they are not YOUR affiliates. They are ClickBank's affiliates !!!

                    You have always left yourself vulnerable by letting someone else control those affiliates - probably your greatest source of traffic/sales.

                    You're not alone.

                    In terms of numbers, most vendors take the easy route and simply list their product with an affiliate network in the hopes that the network will supply enough quality affiliates to maintain a sufficient number of sales to satisfy their needs.

                    A few succeed, but it's a crap shoot .

                    Even if they see some level of success, taking the passive approach to recruiting affiliates means they are probably leaving a lot of money on the table. They have little/no control over which affiliates choose their product(s) to promote (and as we've seen with ClickBank's recent move... also no control over the business strategy of the affiliate network itself).

                    Using an affiliate network to get your first affiliates, for your very first product launch, is understandable - but it is very risky to become dependent on that platform exclusively. What happens when you're ready to launch your second product? Shouldn't you be contacting those who have already had some success promoting your first product to get them to promote your subsequent products? ...or do you simply roll the dice, yet again? Doesn't building your own network of affiliates give you more control, and contribute more to building a real business?

                    The affiliate networks give you no way to do that. They really don't want you to be able to contact your affiliates directly, simply because that would reduce your need for their services. They would have fewer new product releases, and therefore, less attraction for new affiliates for their network.
                    That's very true. I know they used to deny us access to our affiliates for that very reason I suppose. Not sure if that has changed or not. But for "their" affiliates I would feel bad switching and all their hard work going down the drain.

                    I am curious to know how you recommend getting "your own" affiliates. I used CB simply because they send the affiliate checks out etc. Thanks for your input. I agree with you.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10300362].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author agmccall
                    Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

                    The problem with that thinking, Michele



                    ...is that they are not YOUR affiliates. They are ClickBank's affiliates !!!

                    You have always left yourself vulnerable by letting someone else control those affiliates - probably your greatest source of traffic/sales.

                    You're not alone.

                    In terms of numbers, most vendors take the easy route and simply list their product with an affiliate network in the hopes that the network will supply enough quality affiliates to maintain a sufficient number of sales to satisfy their needs.

                    A few succeed, but it's a crap shoot .

                    Even if they see some level of success, taking the passive approach to recruiting affiliates means they are probably leaving a lot of money on the table. They have little/no control over which affiliates choose their product(s) to promote (and as we've seen with ClickBank's recent move... also no control over the business strategy of the affiliate network itself).

                    Using an affiliate network to get your first affiliates, for your very first product launch, is understandable - but it is very risky to become dependent on that platform exclusively. What happens when you're ready to launch your second product? Shouldn't you be contacting those who have already had some success promoting your first product to get them to promote your subsequent products? ...or do you simply roll the dice, yet again? Doesn't building your own network of affiliates give you more control, and contribute more to building a real business?

                    The affiliate networks give you no way to do that. They really don't want you to be able to contact your affiliates directly, simply because that would reduce your need for their services. They would have fewer new product releases, and therefore, less attraction for new affiliates for their network.
                    One that could be done, I am not a vendor mind you, I am thinking out loud, is to have people "register/signup" to access your affiliate/jv page. That way, they are on your list and you can communicate with them for whatever reason.

                    al
                    Signature

                    "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10301086].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
                      Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

                      One that could be done, I am not a vendor mind you, I am thinking out loud, is to have people "register/signup" to access your affiliate/jv page. That way, they are on your list and you can communicate with them for whatever reason.
                      You can do this with ClickBank using their Exclusive Whitelist feature.

                      .
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10301117].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
                Originally Posted by Okane View Post

                So what's the status now?

                As I see it, Clickbank did NOT cancel or stop the ugly banner thing, at least from the vendor point of view.

                Vendors are still required to add the Javascript snippet to their sales pages. From my CB vendor account: "The Always On Shopping Portal Header is required on all customer-facing pages."
                Don't put the Javascript on your website, they probably just left it there in case they want to re-enable it again for some reason.

                I would ignore that for now.

                Here's what Clickbank said:

                "We are actively evaluating the data we gathered during our test to see what iterative changes should be made to the format and content of the header, though we will not serve it through an iframe. As we make modifications to our approach, we will keep you updated."
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10300285].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                Originally Posted by Okane View Post

                So what's the status now?

                As I see it, Clickbank did NOT cancel or stop the ugly banner thing, at least from the vendor point of view.
                They definitely did not. They are still pushing this whole scheme. It's only the IFRAME implementation that they are talking about changing.

                It's not just about a banner, either. Suppose they announce that they are dropping the banner idea, but instead they are going to force vendors to put some other kind of ClickBank branding or links onto their websites. Is that acceptable? Not in the slightest.

                I really don't think the people making these decisions at ClickBank have a clue about the ramifications for their company if they don't drop this idea in its entirety. They have visions of sugar plums dancing in their heads as they envision becoming a digital retail destination.

                The reality is that vendors and affiliates are going to flock to other payment processors and affiliate networks, as they should.

                I understand why ClickBank's leadership wants to develop a retail marketplace for consumers, and I think they are uniquely positioned to do so. But this is not the way. It needs to be done honestly and on their own steam, not at the expense of the vendors and affiliates who use their services. Otherwise, the pitchforks are coming out.

                It's really not rocket science. Create a decent consumer-oriented marketplace. Invite vendors to list their products in the marketplace, and explain the benefits to them. Do not force them to do so. Do not try to take over their websites.

                A little decency and some common sense would go a long way here.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10302880].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author YuanHao
        Can anybody report on real life cases of the change?

        I had the change rolled out at some point, but I noticed it since yesterday. Usually I have around $70-$100 sales per day and yesterday I had no sales from the sales page (had some rebills and upsells).

        I know, I know, I should "start looking for alternatives" but some factual data would really help. If sales stay low for the rest of the month I will definitely look somewhere else.

        Edit: I'm already checking out Clickbetter. But it says that they hold or keep $20 of each payment? My product is only $47, that would be more than I get by the comission LOL
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10295480].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author alodie
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        This is the choice offline producers have had since long before the Internet.

        Am I better served by going through a wholesaler, or direct to market?

        Rossle made his choice. You other CB sellers have the same choice.

        When CB first came on the scene, they solved a huge problem for small-time entrepreneurs. That was getting access to credit card orders. Merchants/banks simply refused to give merchant accounts to online sellers out of fear of fraud. Enter CB, saying to the banks "you don't have to hand out 10,000 merchant accounts to sellers who may not be there tomorrow - give one to us, and we'll deal with it."

        Suddenly, for $50 anyone could peddle their goods on the Internet. I still have my CB account, even though it's been fifteen years since I listed anything with them.

        Times have changed. If CB does something that doesn't work for your business, you have alternatives. Leave this pity party turned bitch session and make the best decision you can for your business.

        Hi John,

        You have made some very solid points.

        Clickbank has been around for so very long, and has served its customers
        so well (and yes, there have been some customer issues here and there over
        the years, but...), that it might appear that this company's service might (I said,
        'might') be taken for granted now, since there are now so many other
        alternatives.

        But, back then, when people like myself could not afford the giant cost
        of other types of Merchant account systems, guess who was there to help me
        out?

        You got it right! Clickbank.

        I firmly believe that Clickbank has earned the right to make any change they
        deem necessary for the welfare of their customers.

        So, yes, their approach might appear too drastic a measure. But yes, I feel
        they are soooooo entitled to that move.

        But at the same time, the Internet environment has changed tremendously
        from when Clickbank started back them. Therefore, Clickbank could be
        seen as having an obligation to get their customers (affiliate, vendors,
        customers, whoever) involved in their planned business changes, and the
        subsequent implementation of those changes.

        I seem to feel that if they had taken this approach , initially, it could have
        prevented the much anxieties I seem to sense coming through the intense
        discussions on this sensitive matter.

        My fellow Warrior Forum members do have a point, and a very strong
        point, at that.

        Once again, great points, John. Made me think afresh about Clickbank,
        and what it has done for so many of us over the years.

        Cheers,

        Alodieanne
        Signature
        "Providing personal and business transformational information: Working hard to always give the kind of value that will produce the best results for my customers. Because, the success of my business will depend on my customers' satisfaction."


        Alodieanne
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10382355].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
          Originally Posted by alodie View Post

          Hi John,

          You have made some very solid points.

          Clickbank has been around for so very long, and has served its customers
          so well (and yes, there have been some customer issues here and there over
          the years, but...), that it might appear that this company's service might (I said,
          'might') be taken for granted now, since there are now so many other
          alternatives.

          But, back then, when people like myself could not afford the giant cost
          of other types of Merchant account systems, guess who was there to help me
          out?

          You got it right! Clickbank.
          I agree that ClickBank provided a useful service, and we used them happily for years. But that doesn't entitle them to take over our website against our will, and put their own header and branding at the top. No sensible business owner would let them or any other service provider (GoDaddy for example) do that.

          I firmly believe that Clickbank has earned the right to make any change they
          deem necessary for the welfare of their customers.
          This is more about ClickBank wanting to be "a global internet retailer with 200,000,000 customers," as they are now saying on their website and social media, than anybody else's welfare.

          Think about this for a moment. That 200,000,000 number refers to their vendors' customers. In other words, they are claiming that all of their vendors' customers are actually their customers. While doing this, they are trying to take over the vendors' websites and put their own header and branding at the top.

          Really let that sink in.

          Legalese notwithstanding, their actual customers are the vendors who pay them to use their processing and affiliate management services, and the affiliates who work in concert with the vendors. This scheme cooked up by the leadership at ClickBank violates their customers' trust in a very self-serving and cynical way.

          So, yes, their approach might appear too drastic a measure. But yes, I feel
          they are soooooo entitled to that move.
          They tried to take over all of their customers' websites, put their own header and branding at the top, steal their customers' traffic with links into their own "marketplace," and change their customers' domain names to ClickBank URLs. This kind of scheme is immoral and abusive by any standard.

          They didn't get away with doing all of that (rightly so.) But now they're at it again with a scaled back version in which they're still trying to put their own header and branding at the top of all of their customers' websites against their will. It's yet another attempt at abusing their customers, and if they get their foot in the door with this, more is sure to follow.

          To say they are entitled to do these things is, in my view, very misguided.

          But at the same time, the Internet environment has changed tremendously
          from when Clickbank started back them. Therefore, Clickbank could be
          seen as having an obligation to get their customers (affiliate, vendors,
          customers, whoever) involved in their planned business changes, and the
          subsequent implementation of those changes.
          Regardless of how they went about implementing this scheme of theirs, it's the scheme itself that is the main problem. These are not so much business changes as they are a hostile takeover of their customers' websites.

          My fellow Warrior Forum members do have a point, and a very strong
          point, at that.
          While I disagree with much of what you wrote, I appreciate your good-natured approach to dealing with other forum members who don't share your opinions.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10382983].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author myob
            Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

            Think about this for a moment. That 200,000,000 number refers to their vendors' customers.
            Actually, Clickbank is technically correct in this claim. They are a retailer, not a payment gateway. They do have an aggressive customer service system in place for handling unruly or unscrupulous vendors in protecting their customers. And as mentioned very early on in this hissy-fit thread, there are many other options available for vendors.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10383889].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author rjd1265
              Image 1 of what the new badge will look like



              Option 2 the floating badge:


              Not as bad as the first one they wanted us to use....but under all my payment methods I have this:



              Not one site i go to online has a clonky looking "secure" floating around on the page...how distracting

              And as a vendor, i can place the header in 5 spots:
              Top Center
              Top Right
              Top Left
              Bottom Right
              Bottom Left
              Signature
              You Are A Snowflake
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10384093].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
              Originally Posted by myob View Post

              Actually, Clickbank is technically correct in this claim. They are a retailer, not a payment gateway.
              Only in the world of legalese are they a retailer and not a payment gateway. Buyers don't know ClickBank from a hole in the ground. Vendors pay ClickBank to use their payment processing and affiliate management services. Vendors are their customers, legalese notwithstanding.

              They do have an aggressive customer service system in place for handling unruly or unscrupulous vendors in protecting their customers.
              When a potential customer comes to my website, looks at my product, is convinced by me to buy it, receives it from me, and then receives support from me after the sale, that is my customer. To pretend otherwise based on what a payment processor says in their legalese, or the fact that the payment processor has a means for people to file for refunds, is just silly.

              And as mentioned very early on in this hissy-fit thread,
              Hissy-fit thread? You don't need to be rude. If you have specific issues with the things I and others have been saying, please feel free to let us know where you disagree. I would be happy to address any points you have, assuming you have any, but childish name-calling isn't productive.

              there are many other options available for vendors.
              I agree with this, of course.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10384427].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author myob
                Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                Only in the world of legalese are they a retailer and not a payment gateway. Buyers don't know ClickBank from a hole in the ground. Vendors pay ClickBank to use their payment processing and affiliate management services. Vendors are their customers, legalese notwithstanding.
                In every sense of the term, Clickbank is the retailer. Vendors are nothing more than suppliers. The sales process is handled by Clickbank. Affiliates are protected by anonymity from vendors, and commissions are paid by Clickbank. Vendors are totally irrelevant in the affiliate approval as well as the Clickbank transaction process. Sales taxes/VAT, income tax reporting, customer service issues, customer support (ticket system), fraud prevention, and refunds (due to vendor default) are all handled by Clickbank. You should have read their TOS before becoming a vendor, instead of bitching and whining about the system.


                Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                When a potential customer comes to my website, looks at my product, is convinced by me to buy it, receives it from me, and then receives support from me after the sale, that is my customer. To pretend otherwise based on what a payment processor says in their legalese, or the fact that the payment processor has a means for people to file for refunds, is just silly.
                See the above.

                Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                Hissy-fit thread? You don't need to be rude. If you have specific issues with the things I and others have been saying, please feel free to let us know where you disagree. I would be happy to address any points you have, assuming you have any, but childish name-calling isn't productive.
                See the above, and read Clickbank's TOS a little more closely.


                Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                I agree with this, of course.
                Then, you should perhaps exercise those other options.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10384733].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Devilfish168
                  so the question is the badge is for vendor or affiliate?

                  next is a must to put??
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10384823].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Okane
                    Originally Posted by Devilfish168 View Post

                    so the question is the badge is for vendor or affiliate?

                    next is a must to put??
                    "The ClickBank Trust Badge (CBTB) is a required header or tab that displays the ClickBank brand on any product page that has a link to a ClickBank order form."
                    https://support.clickbank.com/entrie...k-Trust-Badge-

                    So, yes it's a must for vendors to implement on their sales or pricing pages.

                    It's much better than the first iteration of their banner.

                    Still, I don't think it will help much in "generating trust".
                    Especially, when potential customers click on the header/tab, they prominently see the message:

                    Clickbank is the trusted retailer for VENDORID.clickbank.com

                    It would be much better to mention the PRODUCT NAME and not the VENDORID. I think most vendors (including myself) use a vendor id that is not descriptive of the actual product(s). This will be quite confusing for potential customers...
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10384862].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author Devilfish168
                      Originally Posted by Okane View Post

                      "The ClickBank Trust Badge (CBTB) is a required header or tab that displays the ClickBank brand on any product page that has a link to a ClickBank order form."
                      https://support.clickbank.com/entrie...k-Trust-Badge-

                      So, yes it's a must for vendors to implement on their sales or pricing pages.

                      It's much better than the first iteration of their banner.

                      Still, I don't think it will help much in "generating trust".
                      Especially, when potential customers click on the header/tab, they prominently see the message:

                      Clickbank is the trusted retailer for VENDORID.clickbank.com

                      It would be much better to mention the PRODUCT NAME and not the VENDORID. I think most vendors (including myself) use a vendor id that is not descriptive of the actual product(s). This will be quite confusing for potential customers...
                      hmm so for those promoting click bank vendors products need to put that badge?
                      If I'm not mistaken ....I just read again ..is not a " must " to put ..is up to your wish?
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10384901].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author Okane
                        Originally Posted by Devilfish168 View Post

                        hmm so for those promoting click bank vendors products need to put that badge?
                        As an affiliate, you send traffic to the vendors pitch / sales pages. You do not have a purchase link on your own affiliate page.
                        So, affiliates don't need to do anything about their websites.

                        Originally Posted by Devilfish168 View Post

                        If I'm not mistaken ....I just read again ..is not a " must " to put ..is up to your wish?
                        "required" = must
                        (for vendors)
                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10384903].message }}
                        • Profile picture of the author Devilfish168
                          Originally Posted by Okane View Post

                          As an affiliate, you send traffic to the vendors pitch / sales pages. You do not have a purchase link on your own affiliate page.
                          So, affiliates don't need to do anything about their websites.



                          "required" = must
                          (for vendors)
                          hmm like that isn't good?

                          as buyer will feel " a sense of comfort about click bank products "

                          as for vendor they have put the badge of Trust also benefit for affiliates....too.

                          for me I on affiliate
                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10384977].message }}
                          • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                            Originally Posted by Devilfish168 View Post

                            hmm like that isn't good?

                            as buyer will feel " a sense of comfort about click bank products "

                            as for vendor they have put the badge of Trust also benefit for affiliates....too.

                            for me I on affiliate
                            Please read the full thread, and you will understand what we're talking about and why it only benefits ClickBank at the expense of the vendors and affiliates.

                            To address your comment specifically, buyers will not trust a product based on seeing a ClickBank "badge" or header, because buyers in general have never heard of ClickBank. This is part of an unethical scheme in which ClickBank wants to force website owners to advertise ClickBank's brand on their websites against their will.
                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10385768].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
                  100% True...

                  Originally Posted by myob View Post

                  In every sense of the term, Clickbank is the retailer. Vendors are nothing more than suppliers. The sales process is handled by Clickbank. Affiliates are protected by anonymity from vendors, and commissions are paid by Clickbank. Vendors are totally irrelevant in the affiliate approval as well as the Clickbank transaction process. Sales taxes/VAT, income tax reporting, customer service issues, customer support (ticket system), fraud prevention, and refunds (due to vendor default) are all handled by Clickbank.
                  But...

                  Retailers Do NOT have the need/right to advertise that fact on the manufacturer's premises.

                  ClickBank now has their customer Marketplace up and running, and can plaster their image/branding all over their site.

                  Nothing in ClickBank's legal standing as a retailer gives them the right to mandate that advertising space be provided them on the manufacturer's premises, nor to dictate the placement of such advertising.

                  They can certainly require such via their TOS, but their "suppliers" don't have to like it.

                  It's just as easy to replace the CB buy button code as it is to add the trust badge code to a merchant's site... and ClickBank will never know (or find out purely by accident at some later date).

                  Since many (dare I say most?) CB vendors don't know which CB affiliates are promoting their products, there is no way to contact those affiliates to let them know that they will no longer receive credit because the buy button on the site no longer makes payment to CB and they need to be using an affiliate link from a different affiliate network.

                  Example...
                  How to Ballroom dance videos - Ballroom dance steps now has a smartcart buy button on their site(and of course, no CB Trust Badge), yet they are listed as a "Featured Product" by ClickBank on the home page of their new shopping portal.

                  I assume an affiliate hoplink still delivers the customer to that page. The CB cookie will still be written to the visitor's machine, but it's of no value, since the payment no longer goes through Clickbank. An affiliate hoplink for for that product really isn't even valid anymore.

                  Do affiliates only discover the problem after weeks of experiencing reduced sales?
                  Signature

                  Sid Hale
                  Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10385608].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author trevord92
                    Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

                    Do affiliates only discover the problem after weeks of experiencing reduced sales?
                    Yes - there's no process for affiliates to be notified when a vendor (Clickbank or a lot of others) changes payment processor or stops selling the product altogether.

                    It's a downside of affiliate marketing and I've not come across a piece of software that can do the checking to see whether the payment button is still there, whether there are other leaks on the page (AdSense, Paypal, etc), whether the page still exists or various other issues.

                    Maybe there's a market for that kind of software - it would make an upgrade on something like Pretty Links a lot more desirable.

                    But that's a digression from the ClickBank "trust" badge which I still think could be sorted by them adding a "verified by Visa/Mastercard" option after the payment link is pressed as happens on lots of other sites and by all accounts eliminates the majority of the chargeback issues as it's as close as anyone is likely to get to fraud proof.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10385616].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
                      Originally Posted by trevord92 View Post

                      Yes - there's no process for affiliates to be notified when a vendor (Clickbank or a lot of others) changes payment processor or stops selling the product altogether.
                      LOL - yeah. It was a rhetorical question.
                      Signature

                      Sid Hale
                      Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10385619].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author myob
                      Originally Posted by trevord92 View Post

                      Yes - there's no process for affiliates to be notified when a vendor (Clickbank or a lot of others) changes payment processor or stops selling the product altogether.
                      There actually are several software or customized solutions to alert affiliates when vendors bail out of Clickbank. My personal favorite is CBListAutomator.com. Whenever sales suddenly drop significantly on any particular CB product, it often is a solid indicator that something is wrong. Similar metrics can and should be used by affiliates for all of their affiliate networks.

                      Originally Posted by rjd1265 View Post

                      Once again,

                      Can a vendor who does well with Clickbank come on here and let us know what the conversion change was with the new badge was (not the old header).

                      I looked at it on my site and it is not obtrusive at all and when i click on it it gives simple details, with no links to anywhere else. (I have it on the bottom right and similar colors to my site so i looks like it belongs)

                      Everyone is talking about jumping ship right away without getting the updated conversion stats.

                      And unless you have all your affiliates emails to let them know you changed companies say good by to your affiliate sales, correct?

                      What if sales increase for affiliates, vendors and clickbank....I am sure JVZoo and others might take notice and come up with their own version of the Trust Badge.....just a thought
                      Although I am not a vendor, I do promote over 400 Clickbank products which may help provide some baseline indication of how the new badge affects conversions. I think it really is much too early to draw any solid conclusions, but I so far have seen about a 6% drop in overall conversion rates in the last two months. However, this may perhaps be affected upward somewhat by dropping non-performing products and replacing others. In addition, vendors should realize their conversion rates may also be affected by the marketing ability of affiliates. It is more essential now than ever before that affiliates provide conspicuous disclaimers which disclose their association with Clickbank to their customers and prospects.

                      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                      Now, you can continue with your childish and abrasive language, or you can behave like an adult, but I will continue to sound the alarm when I see the kind of unethical behavior ClickBank is currently engaging in.
                      Whenever a vendor suddenly leaves Clickbank for another platform simply because they cannot adapt to new policies or conform to Clickbank's stringently ethical standards, this sends up a red flag, and are immediately dumped from my marketing promotions.
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10387227].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                        Originally Posted by myob View Post

                        Whenever a vendor suddenly leaves Clickbank for another platform simply because they cannot adapt to new policies
                        They tried to take over all of their customers' websites, put their own header and branding at the top, steal their customers' traffic with a link into their own "marketplace," and change their customers' domain names to ClickBank URLs.

                        Even after the outraged response from their customers, which forced them to put some of that on hold, they are still trying to force their customers to put a ClickBank header and branding at the top of their websites against their will.

                        When a customer abandons ClickBank in response to this type of abusive and unethical behavior, it's completely absurd to disparage them and say it's "simply because they cannot adapt to new policies."

                        or conform to Clickbank's stringently ethical standards,
                        Considering that they've allowed miracle cures and gambling "systems" to be sold through their platform for years, I wouldn't call their standards ethical.
                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10388006].message }}
                        • Profile picture of the author myob
                          Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                          They tried to take over all of their customers' websites, put their own header and branding at the top, steal their customers' traffic with a link into their own "marketplace," and change their customers' domain names to ClickBank URLs.

                          Even after the outraged response from their customers, which forced them to put some of that on hold, they are still trying to force their customers to put a ClickBank header and branding at the top of their websites against their will.

                          When a customer abandons ClickBank in response to this type of abusive and unethical behavior, it's completely absurd to disparage them and say it's "simply because they cannot adapt to new policies."
                          I am not aware of any such takeovers of customers' websites, stealing their customers' traffic, or "outraged response" by Clickbank's customers. Such allegations of customer abuse and unethical conduct are absurd.


                          Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                          Considering that they've allowed miracle cures and gambling "systems" to be sold through their platform for years, I wouldn't call their standards ethical.
                          These types of products are more of a reflection on the unethical and predatory practices of vendors rather than Clickbank. This online retailer has a 90-day unconditional 100% money-back guarantee for protecting their customers from such unethical vendor practices, predatory behavior, and fraud.
                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10388671].message }}
                          • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                            Originally Posted by myob View Post

                            I am not aware of any such takeovers of customers' websites, stealing their customers' traffic, or "outraged response" by Clickbank's customers. Such allegations of customer abuse and unethical conduct are absurd.
                            Your confusion is due to the fact that you still have trouble recognizing who ClickBank's customers are. The vendors and affiliates who use ClickBank's payment processing and affiliate management services are ClickBank's customers. They are the ones who seek out such services and choose ClickBank to provide them, and indeed they are typically the only ones who even know what ClickBank is.

                            The vendors' customers on the other hand, i.e. the people who come to the vendors' websites, are convinced by the vendors to buy their products, receive those products from the vendors, and receive support after the sale from the vendors, generally have never heard of ClickBank, and typically their only interaction with ClickBank is when ClickBank processes the sale on behalf of the vendor.

                            That is the reality. If you continue to base your views on the legalese in ClickBank's TOS rather than reality, and go around spouting nonsense about ClickBank being a retailer and every vendor's customers being their customers, we are never going to see eye to eye.

                            To the point...

                            Regardless of whether you are able to understand who ClickBank's customers are, ClickBank has indeed attempted to do all of the things you mentioned in your quote to the vendors and affiliates who use their services (their customers.) The discussion in this thread has gone over this in great detail.

                            These types of products are more of a reflection on the unethical and predatory practices of vendors rather than Clickbank.
                            Ah! So the vendors who understandably stop using ClickBank when ClickBank tries to conduct a hostile takeover of their websites are somehow failing to meet ClickBank's "stringently ethical standards"... despite the fact that ClickBank has helped some vendors peddle miracle cures and gambling system scams for years? Apparently that last part is irrelevant to the question of whether they actually have "stringently ethical standards" or not?

                            At this point I'm beginning to think you must be trolling.

                            This online retailer
                            You can keep saying it, but that won't make it true. They are not a retailer. They are a payment processing and affiliate management service.

                            has a 90-day unconditional 100% money-back guarantee
                            A vendor's customer can file for a refund through ClickBank, who processed the payment on behalf of the vendor, if the vendor is unresponsive. This does not make them a retailer any more than my bank is a retailer because they will process a chargeback if any online product seller is unresponsive.

                            for protecting their customers from such unethical vendor practices, predatory behavior, and fraud.
                            Once again, the customers of the vendors who use ClickBank's services are not ClickBank's customers, and since ClickBank has let some vendors sell miracle cures and gambling system scams for years, "protecting" is also not the word I would use.

                            Now, in regards to how ClickBank treats their actual customers, the vendors and affiliates who use their services, they certainly aren't protecting them from unethical practices either. Quite the contrary - ClickBank is engaging in unethical and abusive practices, which has been discussed thoroughly in this thread.
                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10389634].message }}
                            • Profile picture of the author myob
                              Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                              At this point I'm beginning to think you must be trolling.
                              LOL! Your position is so absurd and untenable, you have now stooped to a new low (even for a vendor) by using such an allegation. Look at it this way then. If your product bombs out, does Clickbank give you a refund of your registration fee? Real customers are assured a 90-day unconditional 100% money-back guarantee.

                              Clickbank makes nearly all of their money from customer sales, not from vendors. Clickbank actually buys the product from vendors at a discount (7.5%), then sells it to customers at full price plus any applicable taxes or VAT. And if affiliates are involved in the sales process or JV arrangements, commissions are distributed by Clickbank, not vendors.

                              Clickbank legally takes possession of the products, just as any other online/offline retailer, which effectively eliminates future vendor recourse such as customer service issues, refunds, etc. They judiciously protect their customers (ie buyers) from fraud, nefarious vendors, and even from dishonest or inept affiliates through a robust customer service department.

                              So, your childish tirade against Clickbank's supposedly "hostile takeover" of vendor websites, "unethical and abusive practices", "stealing traffic", etc is so ludicrous it makes many of us double over in laughter. Don't let the door hit you in the a$$ on your way out.
                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10390131].message }}
                              • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
                                Originally Posted by myob View Post

                                Clickbank makes nearly all of their money from customer sales, not from vendors. Clickbank actually buys the product from vendors at a discount (7.5%), then sells it to customers at full price plus any applicable taxes or VAT. And if affiliates are involved in the sales process or JV arrangements, commissions are distributed by Clickbank, not vendors.
                                ?????

                                Clickbank does NOT buy the product for a discount. Don't know where you're getting that drivel.

                                The 7.5% is NOT a payment to the vendor, but rather a processing fee that ClickBank deducts (and retains) from the sales amount prior to distributing the remainder to the vendor and/or the affiliate, as approriate.

                                Clickbank legally takes possession of the products, just as any other online/offline retailer, which effectively eliminates future vendor recourse such as customer service issues, refunds, etc. They judiciously protect their customers (ie buyers) from fraud, nefarious vendors, and even from dishonest or inept affiliates through a robust customer service department.
                                ...and delivery of the product? How do they handle that????

                                Unlike any other online/offline retailer. They DO NOT stock the product, nor do they deliver the product to the retail customer.

                                They engage sales reps (affliates) to sell on their behalf, but the commission percentages are set by the vendor and payment of those commissions (when applicable) come out of the vendors sales price.

                                ClickBank runs the cash register.
                                Signature

                                Sid Hale
                                Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

                                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10390305].message }}
                              • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                                Originally Posted by myob View Post

                                LOL! Your position is so absurd and untenable,
                                I and many others in this thread have clearly enumerated the problems with ClickBank's actions. There is nothing absurd or untenable about my position.

                                you have now stooped to a new low (even for a vendor)
                                And with that statement, the reason for your bizarre and illogical rants is finally clear. You should do a better job of concealing your prejudice (and a quite bemusing prejudice, at that) if you want to be taken seriously by rational people.

                                by using such an allegation.
                                If you possess a firm grasp of the English language, it should have been clear to you that my statement about you "trolling" was meant to highlight the absurdity of the position you had taken which I had subsequently refuted. I am, unfortunately, quite sure that you're not trolling, but rather that you sincerely are very deluded about this issue.

                                Look at it this way then. If your product bombs out, does Clickbank give you a refund of your registration fee? Real customers are assured a 90-day unconditional 100% money-back guarantee.
                                There are many companies that offer services to businesses and don't refund the money if the business's product "bombs out." That doesn't mean the businesses are not their customers.

                                And when ClickBank makes refunds available to a vendor's customers on the terms you mentioned, after processing payments on behalf of the vendor, ClickBank is doing so to cover their own asses as the payment processor.

                                Clickbank makes nearly all of their money from customer sales, not from vendors.
                                A much more accurate way to say this is that they make nearly all of their money from processing sales on behalf of the vendors who use their payment processing service, from which they earn a fee.

                                Clickbank actually buys the product from vendors at a discount (7.5%), then sells it to customers at full price plus any applicable taxes or VAT.
                                You can only believe this if you confuse legalese with actual reality.

                                The reality is that a product seller (vendor) creates a product and a website, visitors come to that website, some of them decide to buy the product, the vendor uses ClickBank's payment processing service to process those sales (paying ClickBank a fee to do so), the vendor delivers the product, and the vendor provides support. These vendors have sought out a payment processing and affiliate management service and decided to use ClickBank. They are ClickBank's customers.

                                The people who buy products from the vendors, on the other hand, are the vendors' customers. They have sought out the vendors' products, made a decision while on the vendors' websites to purchase those products, received those products from the vendors, and received support after the sale from the vendors.

                                Reality over legalese.

                                And if affiliates are involved in the sales process or JV arrangements, commissions are distributed by Clickbank, not vendors.
                                When ClickBank processes a sale on behalf of a vendor, they pay the vendor's set commission to the affiliate if an affiliate is involved. This is part of their affiliate management service.

                                Clickbank legally takes possession of the products,
                                Only in the world of obscure, reality-defying legalese do they take possession of anything. In reality, buyers receive the products from the vendors they bought them from.

                                which effectively eliminates future vendor recourse such as customer service issues, refunds, etc.
                                I have no idea what you think you're talking about here. Most customer service issues and refund requests are handled by the vendor. Only if the vendor is unresponsive does ClickBank default to refunding the customer, but a customer's bank will do the same thing. That doesn't make them a retailer.

                                They judiciously protect their customers (ie buyers) from fraud, nefarious vendors,
                                They've allowed miracle cures and gambling system scams to be sold through their payment processing service for years. YEARS.

                                and even from dishonest or inept affiliates through a robust customer service department.
                                See above about their limited involvement in customer service issues.

                                So, your childish tirade against Clickbank's supposedly "hostile takeover" of vendor websites, "unethical and abusive practices", "stealing traffic", etc is so ludicrous it makes many of us double over in laughter.
                                Wait a second. Until now, you've only been quibbling about whether the vendors who seek out and use ClickBank's services are their customers. That's a truly silly argument, but it's quite different from what you've just said in this quote. Are you now claiming that:

                                - ClickBank did not demand that all of the vendors who use their services put ClickBank's header and branding at the top of their websites?

                                - ClickBank did not put a link to their own "marketplace" in this header, which would steal the vendors' and affiliates' traffic and siphon it away into said "marketplace?"

                                - ClickBank did not attempt to redirect vendors' websites into an IFRAME and replace every vendor's domain name with a ClickBank URL?

                                I don't know who the "many of us" are that you're referring to, but we all saw the numerous announcements, blog posts and emails from ClickBank on this subject. They did indeed attempt to do these things. If you deny this, you are truly unhinged from reality.

                                Even now, after ClickBank had to put some of this on hold due to the backlash they received, they are still trying to force vendors to put ClickBank's brand at the top of their websites.

                                And while I see many people throughout this thread and elsewhere who are outraged about ClickBank's actions, and I see ClickBank issuing press releases in response to the backlash, I don't see the "many of us" you're talking about.

                                Don't let the door hit you in the a$$ on your way out.
                                Didn't you just attempt to call me childish?
                                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10390788].message }}
                                • Profile picture of the author myob
                                  Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                                  Wait a second. Until now, you've only been quibbling about whether the vendors who seek out and use ClickBank's services are their customers. That's a truly silly argument, but it's quite different from what you've just said in this quote. Are you now claiming that:

                                  - ClickBank did not demand that all of the vendors who use their services put ClickBank's header and branding at the top of their websites?

                                  - ClickBank did not put a link to their own "marketplace" in this header, which would steal the vendors' and affiliates' traffic and siphon it away into said "marketplace?"

                                  - ClickBank did not attempt to redirect vendors' websites into an IFRAME and replace every vendor's domain name with a ClickBank URL?
                                  What I'm saying is that Clickbank has a legal right for these courses of action, which you had to agree to upon becoming a vendor. It is not a "silly argument" regarding Clickbank's relationship with the parties involved, because their position is well established and published.

                                  Despite your outrageous insistence, vendors have no basis for claiming to be Clickbank customers, and have no recourse rights to new policies, as specified in the TOS.

                                  Vendors are not considered customers, nor are affiliates. They are clients and independent representatives, respectively. As a product retailer, Clickbank's customers are those who purchase products supplied by clients, which may be from the marketplace, Clickbank's in-house promotions/advertising, or through affiliates.

                                  In my experience with Clickbank over the years, the primary focus has always been a commitment to provide product buyers with a safe and quality customer experience as well as to protect their reputation as a reliable retailer. It is quite apparent that Clickbank is attempting to correct a recent deficit in this customer trust factor.

                                  Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post


                                  Clickbank does NOT buy the product for a discount. Don't know where you're getting that drivel.
                                  Source: Clickbank Support - Fees

                                  "Each time you sell a product through ClickBank, without respect to the location of the buyer, we purchase the product from you at wholesale price, which for standard products is 92.5% of the approved retail price, less a $1 transaction fee. Therefore, on each sale ClickBank effectively keeps 7.5% plus $1.

                                  Here's an example:

                                  Your product sells for $100.

                                  ClickBank purchases the product from you for $91.50. (92.5% of $100, minus a $1 transaction fee)

                                  You have chosen to pay a commission of 50%, so 50% of the remainder goes to the referring affiliate, which equals $45.75.

                                  You earn $45.75 on the sale."


                                  Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                                  I and many others in this thread have clearly enumerated the problems with ClickBank's actions. There is nothing absurd or untenable about my position.
                                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10391031].message }}
                                  • Profile picture of the author Okane
                                    You are both right.

                                    From my long time vendor perspective:

                                    (1) Clickbank is a retailer.
                                    Yes.
                                    This is very clear when I prepare my yearly tax declaration. I only have ONE customer that I report to the tax authority and that is Clickbank.

                                    (2) Clickbank is just a payment processor.
                                    Yes.
                                    This is very clear every single day of my working life.
                                    I create content for my service,
                                    I deliver it to the customers,
                                    I answer the support requests,
                                    I run promotions,
                                    I do pretty much EVERYTHING.

                                    In my daily life, Clickbank is (practically) nothing more than a payment processor.
                                    From a legal standpoint, Clickbank is obviously the retailer of my product.

                                    Why is there so much to argue about this?

                                    The only reason I will stay with Clickbank (for now) is (1) mentioned above.
                                    For a simple payment processor, there are numerous (likely better) solutions around.
                                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10391212].message }}
                                    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                                      Originally Posted by Okane View Post

                                      You are both right.

                                      From my long time vendor perspective:

                                      (1) Clickbank is a retailer.
                                      Yes.
                                      This is very clear when I prepare my yearly tax declaration. I only have ONE customer that I report to the tax authority and that is Clickbank.
                                      This tax structure is helpful when using their payment processing service, but I wouldn't agree that it makes them a retailer except when discussing legal technicalities. As you mention in (2) below, the people who come to your website and buy your product from you are your customers in every practical sense.

                                      (2) Clickbank is just a payment processor.
                                      Yes.
                                      This is very clear every single day of my working life.
                                      I create content for my service,
                                      I deliver it to the customers,
                                      I answer the support requests,
                                      I run promotions,
                                      I do pretty much EVERYTHING.

                                      In my daily life, Clickbank is (practically) nothing more than a payment processor.
                                      From a legal standpoint, Clickbank is obviously the retailer of my product.

                                      Why is there so much to argue about this?
                                      I wish there wasn't.

                                      Our friend myob thinks ClickBank's attempt to redefine what a "customer" and a "retailer" are in their legal technicalities is more relevant than the actual customer/seller relationship between a product seller and his or her customers (who are the product buyers), and ClickBank and its customers (who are the product sellers using its services).

                                      He further believes that it's fine for ClickBank to engage in the unethical behavior they've been engaging in, despite the fact that it has caused such widespread outrage among everyone else that ClickBank was forced to issue a press release and put some aspects of their scheme on hold (for now).

                                      In addition, he has displayed a surprising and befuddling prejudice against product sellers in general, which I can only suspect is the reason he is happy to see ClickBank abusing them.

                                      As a product seller myself, I can't help but find his arguments objectionable. Hence, a lively debate has ensued.

                                      The only reason I will stay with Clickbank (for now) is (1) mentioned above.
                                      For a simple payment processor, there are numerous (likely better) solutions around.
                                      You're not alone. Any sensible product seller who hasn't already made the decision to leave ClickBank is likely on the same page, staying with them for now only because of that or similar issues. Competing payment processors may need to be coupled with third-party solutions for handling such things in order to allow for a smooth migration away from ClickBank.
                                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10391315].message }}
                                    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
                                      Originally Posted by myob View Post

                                      What I'm saying is that Clickbank has a legal right for these courses of action, which you had to agree to upon becoming a vendor. It is not a "silly argument" regarding Clickbank's relationship with the parties involved, because their position is well established and published.
                                      Feel free to go back and re-read this thread in it's entirety. No where has anyone ever said that what ClickBank is doing/has tried to do is illegal.

                                      I'll wait.

                                      Originally Posted by myob View Post

                                      Despite your outrageous insistence, vendors have no basis for claiming to be Clickbank customers, and have no recourse rights to new policies, as specified in the TOS.

                                      Vendors are not considered customers, nor are affiliates. They are clients and independent representatives, respectively. As a product retailer, Clickbank's customers are those who purchase products supplied by clients, which may be from the marketplace, Clickbank's in-house promotions/advertising, or through affiliates.
                                      A vendor's basis for claiming to be a ClickBank customer is the 7.5% fee CB charges per transaction. Yes, I understand that they have cloaked that by pretending that it is the result of a discount price to ClickBank, and I understand that ClickBank vendors agreed to that sales agreement by accepting their Terms of Service.

                                      After all... they never take possession of the product that they supposedly pay "wholesale prices" for, nor do they deliver it to the ultimate purchaser. It's a simple pass thru/distribution of funds as a third party payment processor.

                                      No one is arguing that they don't deserve those fees, but everyone (well most of us, anyway) realize that it is indeed a fee, rather than a discount off the retail price.

                                      Originally Posted by myob View Post

                                      Vendors are not considered customers... They are clients
                                      FYI
                                      customers = clients

                                      Feel free to expound on any situation where this is not true.
                                      Signature

                                      Sid Hale
                                      Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

                                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10391581].message }}
                                      • Profile picture of the author myob
                                        Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

                                        Feel free to go back and re-read this thread in it's entirety. No where has anyone ever said that what ClickBank is doing/has tried to do is illegal.

                                        I'll wait.
                                        I won't keep you waiting long. Thanks for making this point so clear, and I agree.


                                        Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

                                        A vendor's basis for claiming to be a ClickBank customer is the 7.5% fee CB charges per transaction. Yes, I understand that they have cloaked that by pretending that it is the result of a discount price to ClickBank, and I understand that ClickBank vendors agreed to that sales agreement by accepting their Terms of Service.

                                        After all... they never take possession of the product that they supposedly pay "wholesale prices" for, nor do they deliver it to the ultimate purchaser. It's a simple pass thru/distribution of funds as a third party payment processor.

                                        No one is arguing that they don't deserve those fees, but everyone (well most of us, anyway) realize that it is indeed a fee, rather than a discount off the retail price.
                                        Among the many services that Clickbank provides their vendor clients includes not just handling the payment processing, but they also pay applicable retail sales tax/VAT, product refunds to retail customers, commissions to affiliates, commissions to vendor JV partners, 1099 or equivalents as required by law on behalf of vendors, etc. The legal reality is that in order for Clickbank to provide these comprehensive services, they must show possession of the products. None of these services can be accomplished legally without having direct control of the products, for which Clickbank buys from vendors at 92.5% of the retail price (plus a $1 transaction fee) applied when a retail purchase is made.


                                        Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

                                        FYI
                                        customers = clients

                                        Feel free to expound on any situation where this is not true.
                                        Certainly. Once again, you are only partially correct in this context. Clickbank does make clear distinctions between their retail customers, business customers (ie "vendors") and affiliates. Their TOS and specific handling procedures apply to these associations quite differently. A prominent example is Clickbank's very aggressive retail customer protection policies, which have a much different effect on vendors and affiliates. Another example is the (non-refundable) registration fee charged to vendors along with specific TOS constraints, which are not applicable to Clickbank's retail customers.
                                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10391822].message }}
                                  • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                                    Originally Posted by myob View Post

                                    What I'm saying is that Clickbank has a legal right for these courses of action,
                                    Is your argument that they didn't attempt to conduct a hostile takeover of their vendors' websites, steal their vendors' and affiliates' traffic, and engage in the other unethical and abusive actions discussed in this thread... as you argued in your last post when you said that was "ludicrous"...

                                    Or is your argument that ClickBank has a legal right to do these things?

                                    I've addressed the former thoroughly. I'll be happy to address the latter, then, by making clear for what must be the tenth time that I'm not talking about legalese. Any service provider, GoDaddy for example, has a legal right to demand just about anything they want from those who use their service, no matter how ridiculous or abusive it is, and threaten to shut off their service if they don't comply. But ethical companies are careful about how they wield this leverage.

                                    The way ClickBank has attempted to use this leverage is unethical, abusive, and wrong. This isn't legalese, this is reality. There is a reason they were forced to put some of it on hold in response to the outrage it caused.

                                    Despite your outrageous insistence, vendors have no basis for claiming to be Clickbank customers, and have no recourse rights to new policies, as specified in the TOS.
                                    Right, you've told us this already. The people who seek out and use ClickBank's services are not their customers. It's the people who have never heard of ClickBank, have no clue what they do, have shown zero interest in being their customers, and only ever come into contact with them if a vendor uses ClickBank's payment processing service, who are really ClickBank's customers.

                                    After all, the legalese in their Terms of Service says it, so it must be true.

                                    Vendors are not considered customers, nor are affiliates. They are clients and independent representatives, respectively. As a product retailer, Clickbank's customers are those who purchase products supplied by clients,
                                    See above.

                                    which may be from the marketplace, Clickbank's in-house promotions/advertising, or through affiliates.
                                    I love how you put the "marketplace" and in-house promotions first in an overblown attempt to make it seem like ClickBank drives sales on any meaningful level. They do not, and everyone knows this. I assume you know this as well, and are simply being intellectually dishonest. If not, then you are woefully uninformed and ill-prepared to discuss this topic.

                                    In my experience with Clickbank over the years, the primary focus has always been a commitment to provide product buyers with a safe and quality customer experience
                                    They have been in the business of providing a payment processing and affiliate management service, and hosting a support ticket system for vendors who use their services. My company has used their services extensively.

                                    The concept of a consumer-oriented marketplace is a recent development, and their only interaction with buyers over the years (other than processing the payments for vendors who use their services) has been to hand out refunds to buyers if the vendor is unresponsive, which only makes sense as they are the payment processor for the sale. A buyer's bank will do the same in the form of a chargeback.

                                    Of course, the fact that they've allowed miracle cures and gambling system scams to be sold through their payment processing service for years also calls into question your claim that their focus has been on providing buyers "a safe and quality customer experience."

                                    as well as to protect their reputation as a reliable retailer. It is quite apparent that Clickbank is attempting to correct a recent deficit in this customer trust factor.
                                    Other than their reputation among the vendors and affiliates who use their services, which has certainly suffered badly from their unethical behavior, they have no reputation. Certainly not as a retailer. Consumers in general don't know anything about ClickBank and have no interaction with them unless they buy something from a vendor who uses ClickBank's payment processing service.

                                    Source: Clickbank Support - Fees

                                    "Each time you sell a product through ClickBank, without respect to the location of the buyer, we purchase the product from you at wholesale price, which for standard products is 92.5% of the approved retail price, less a $1 transaction fee. Therefore, on each sale ClickBank effectively keeps 7.5% plus $1.
                                    I'm well aware of the legal pretzel ClickBank twists themselves into in order to label themselves a "retailer," when by any rational analysis they are merely a payment processing and affiliate management service that charges a fee of 7.5% plus $1. It should be clear to you by now that I and most others who have participated in this thread care more about reality than legalese.
                                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10391268].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                  Originally Posted by myob View Post

                  In every sense of the term, Clickbank is the retailer. Vendors are nothing more than suppliers. The sales process is handled by Clickbank.
                  That's strange, because it's me who creates and hosts the website where the product is sold. It's me or an affiliate who attracts potential buyers to my website. It's me who convinces those potential buyers to actually buy the product once they are on my website. It's me who delivers the product when they buy it. And it's me who provides support after the sale (above and beyond simple refund requests).

                  Tell me again how ClickBank handles the sales process?

                  They provide payment processing and affiliate management services. These are the facts. Designating themselves as a "retailer" in their legal terms is pure legalese.

                  Affiliates are protected by anonymity from vendors,
                  They are kept anonymous so that the traffic has to continue going through ClickBank's hoplinks, and vendors and affiliates can't link up outside the system where ClickBank wouldn't make money from the transactions. I don't have a problem with that particular concept, but let's be accurate about what's happening.

                  and commissions are paid by Clickbank.
                  I sell a product on my website to a customer who I have attracted and convinced to buy that product, and I deliver that product and provide support after the sale. I pay ClickBank a percentage to process the sale, and I pay an affiliate a percentage if there is an affiliate involved. Legalese is legalese, and reality is reality. Try to understand the difference between the two.

                  Vendors are totally irrelevant in the affiliate approval
                  So is ClickBank, because there is no affiliate approval process. Affiliates are automatically approved. However, vendors can have affiliates barred from promoting their products, and vendors can recruit affiliates themselves and have them send traffic through ClickBank for tracking.

                  as well as the Clickbank transaction process. Sales taxes/VAT, income tax reporting,
                  Helpful add-ons for their payment processing service.

                  customer service issues,
                  I handle the majority of these.

                  customer support (ticket system),
                  A customer support ticket system is merely a service when I am the one using it to provide support. Hosting a customer support ticket system does not a retailer make.

                  fraud prevention,
                  Payment processing.

                  and refunds (due to vendor default) are all handled by Clickbank.
                  If any online product seller is unresponsive and a customer goes to their bank, their bank will process a refund for them in the form of a chargeback. Is their bank now a retailer?

                  You should have read their TOS before becoming a vendor, instead of bitching and whining about the system.
                  Let's be clear about this. My company has processed hundreds of thousands of dollars in sales through ClickBank as a product seller. There is little to no chance that you have anything to teach me about ClickBank's operations or TOS, and your latest post bears that out.

                  Now, you can continue with your childish and abrasive language, or you can behave like an adult, but I will continue to sound the alarm when I see the kind of unethical behavior ClickBank is currently engaging in.

                  Then, you should perhaps exercise those other options.
                  If you had actually read the thread, you would be aware that this is a decision which has already been made.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10385762].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Eagle07
        I agree with all the concerns presented by the OP and I think if Clickbank would insist on doing this, a lot of vendors will try other platforms to use and affiliates will have to follow.

        This will not be a good for Clickbank
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10590370].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author trevord92
      Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

      Now with warrior plus hosting sales pages independent of the warrior forum I think lots of vendors will move there. I hope they do as the simple metrics such as # of sales and refund rate% spelled out in black and white are extremely important for affiliates.

      If warrior plus or jvzoo could capture some of the "Other than IM" niches it could be a real game changer and eye opener for clickbank

      al
      Agreed - there's a gaping hole in the market waiting for someone to step in!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10292826].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

      Now with warrior plus hosting sales pages independent of the warrior forum I think lots of vendors will move there. I hope they do as the simple metrics such as # of sales and refund rate% spelled out in black and white are extremely important for affiliates.

      If warrior plus or jvzoo could capture some of the "Other than IM" niches it could be a real game changer and eye opener for clickbank

      al
      Contrary to what many think, I have been increasingly pleased with Warrior + and think they have a really good system in place !
      Signature

      Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10293215].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author nicheblogger75
        Originally Posted by discrat View Post

        Contrary to what many think, I have been increasingly pleased with Warrior + and think they have a really good system in place !
        I agree. I love Warrior Plus. It's easy to use and has all the functionality I need (and more). Also, I find it to be the easiest network when it comes to recruiting affiliates, followed closely by JVZoo.

        The only thing I would change about Warrior Plus is their offer approval process. It is rather slow.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10294406].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Responster
    While I understand how they're trying to spin this, it seems like they're going to shoot themselves in the foot by not just providing this as invisible code that doesn't disrupt a visual experience. That said, I'm kind of glad I moved away from CB a while ago.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10294418].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
    What makes me wonder is all of the top 10 ClickBank products do not have this implemented as of yet. today is the first day and, according to ClickBank, must have this implemented starting today.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10294893].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author TweetPilot
      Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

      What makes me wonder is all of the top 10 ClickBank products do not have this implemented as of yet. today is the first day and, according to ClickBank, must have this implemented starting today.
      Not the case Mike.

      Some vendors, I assume their top/premium ones or whatever they're calling them today have received an email and part of that states:

      "As a valued ClickBank client, we want to remind you that you are NOT required to add the JavaScript to your marketing funnel at this time. Between now and November 23rd, we will continue to test several versions of the Always On Shopping Portal header before you're required to make any change."

      So they're shitting on the new vendors first to test it out before they then screw everyone.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10294903].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author mpakii
    I don't know about you but all of mine affiliate links stopped working today...
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10294904].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author julesw
    I never added any code but it appeared on 2 of my sites just a few hours back .. it's slow to load and stops my OP2 countdown timer showing and Overlay Exit intent form too!
    Signature
    WIN my Lanparte Smartphone or GoPro Gimbal! Get Ready Get Steady! Watch my Video Here:
    VideoHero.com/win
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10294972].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
      Originally Posted by julesw View Post

      I never added any code but it appeared on 2 of my sites just a few hours back .. it's slow to load and stops my OP2 countdown timer showing and Overlay Exit intent form too!
      It shows up if you reach the site via a hop link

      My understanding is that the javascript you're supposed to add, will make it show-up however a visitor reaches your site. For example, even if you pay to advertise your own website on facebook or bing or something - or you print your URL on T-shirts - you need to give-up the top portion of every webpage on your site to ClickBank's banner thingy..
      Signature
      ClickBank Vendor?
      - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
      - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
      - Killer Graphics for Your Site
      SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10294983].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author julesw
        Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

        It shows up if you reach the site via a hop link

        My understanding is that the javascript you're supposed to add, will make it show-up however a visitor reaches your site. For example, even if you pay to advertise your own website on facebook or bing or something - or you print your URL on T-shirts - you need to give-up the top portion of every webpage on your site to ClickBank's banner thingy..
        even worse ...
        Signature
        WIN my Lanparte Smartphone or GoPro Gimbal! Get Ready Get Steady! Watch my Video Here:
        VideoHero.com/win
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10294989].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author leilani
    CB must have a reason for doing this that is not apparent. Clickbank will do it whether we have something to say or not. We have a choice to stay or leave CB.

    I'm with John McCabe. Make your best decision and move on. Think of what's best for your business. Either CB is going to be better or there is someone else that will come up with an even better idea.

    Leilani
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10295392].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author trevord92
      Originally Posted by leilani View Post

      CB must have a reason for doing this that is not apparent. Clickbank will do it whether we have something to say or not. We have a choice to stay or leave CB.
      I'm with John McCabe. Make your best decision and move on. Think of what's best for your business. Either CB is going to be better or there is someone else that will come up with an even better idea.
      Leilani
      Agreed - it's their business and their decision.

      Personally, I'm running away from them as fast as possible.

      I don't like it that the banner (at least when I looked) had a link to the CB marketplace that didn't give me commission on anything when clicks leak out.

      There are a few programs on CB that I have successfully promoted and I'm going to send the vendors a message asking if they are on alternative platforms so that I can continue to promote them.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10295449].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author joaquin112
    I've wanted to get away from ClickBank for a while, but I delayed it because my income was growing and there was no real reason to leave them. This just makes it an easy decision to do it now.
    Signature

    Publish your digital course at Accomplisher.com. We create the video sales letter, drive affiliate traffic and split the profits with you. If you want to start making money by teaching online, submit your application here.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296192].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author TweetPilot
    Ultimate Azon Theme | ClickBank - Vanished?

    And the bar has vanished? Any clues?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296266].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author SShaikh
    Hey all,
    I'm assuming there's not much I can do, as most of my clickbank affiliating has been email marketing..?
    There's no where to put this header on a page.

    I've been leaning towards JVZoo and a few others lately anyhows, so worst comes the worst it's not a major loss for me.
    Signature
    Discover how to get hiqh quality traffic and opt ins on your website
    Best of all... it's FREE! click here
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296284].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author TheWebGuy
    I was in touch with a few of the top vendors on Clickbank and I know that this was crushing their products. For one product I'm an affiliate for my conversions went from about 8% all the way down to less than 1%.

    Media buyers were leaving, Vendors were looking for new networks ...but I hear Clickbank is reconsidering this horrible test. Thank God.

    Let's pray this never comes back. Make sure you contact Clickbank Client support (email or phone) and let them know how bad this was. If this would have continued my business would have been dead in a couple weeks. But seriously...this can never come back Clickbank! I hope you're listening.

    Some of the worlds greatest copywriters and digital marketers choose Clickbank because you all did a great job with affiliate management and Payment Processing ...and let us develop our brand!

    If you take over our sales pages, take over our URLs, start putting links on our sales pages that absolutey kill conversion ...everything that was great about Clickbank dies. I have built my business around Clickbank and I saw first hand how terrible this experiment went. Please don't bring this back (vendors and affiliates - make sure you let Clickbank know how you feel - or this will come back).
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296305].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author julesw
      Originally Posted by TheWebGuy View Post

      I was in touch with a few of the top vendors on Clickbank and I know that this was crushing their products. For one product I'm an affiliate for my conversions went from about 8% all the way down to less than 1%.

      Media buyers were leaving, Vendors were looking for new networks ...but I hear Clickbank is reconsidering this horrible test. Thank God.

      Let's pray this never comes back. Make sure you contact Clickbank Client support (email or phone) and let them know how bad this was. If this would have continued my business would have been dead in a couple weeks. But seriously...this can never come back Clickbank! I hope you're listening.

      Some of the worlds greatest copywriters and digital marketers choose Clickbank because you all did a great job with affiliate management and Payment Processing ...and let us develop our brand!

      If you take over our sales pages, take over our URLs, start putting links on our sales pages that absolutey kill conversion ...everything that was great about Clickbank dies. I have built my business around Clickbank and I saw first hand how terrible this experiment went. Please don't bring this back (vendors and affiliates - make sure you let Clickbank know how you feel - or this will come back).

      Very well put!
      Signature
      WIN my Lanparte Smartphone or GoPro Gimbal! Get Ready Get Steady! Watch my Video Here:
      VideoHero.com/win
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296342].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author DR0832
    I will not be using clickbank anymore after this change
    Signature

    Join A Top Affiliate Program About Penny Stock Trading: Earn 50% Commissions!

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296382].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author TheWebGuy
      Originally Posted by DR0832 View Post

      I will not be using clickbank anymore after this change
      Don't give up yet! Clickbank is considering cancelling this horrible Always One header/URL takeover.

      But only because vendors and affiliates have been calling and emailing them today. Make sure you email or call them too. We can get this cancelled. Clickbank saw how terrible this performed ...and now they need to hear from you!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296392].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
        This header thing is the stupidest idea I've ever seen.

        And I'm no newbie, I've been making a living off Clickbank for the past 6 years. Thanks to Clickbank I bought a new house and traveled around the world.

        First of all, from a copywriting perspective, having a Clickbank header is the equivalent of going to a clothing store and seeing a big Coca Cola poster at the entrance, seriously wtf?

        Second, customers reach Clickbank products because they are looking for a solution to their particular problems. They are not interested in browsing a marketplace. Clickbank is NOT Amazon or Ebay.

        Third, most customers don't even know what Clickbank is. If anything, they will get confused by the header, not knowing what the hell is going on.

        Fourth, the sales page itself doesn't work properly. I can't use my arrow keys to move up and down the page, unless I click first on the content. This damages the user experience greatly.

        Fifth, no reputable Internet company uses frames like that anymore. This is not the year 2000.

        Sixth, the URL looks way too spammy. It not only removes the domain branding aspect of the products, but it even scares people.

        Seventh, for foreign languages, when people click on marketplace they are sent to the ENGLISH version of Clickbank. This is obviously a bug, but the whole thing is just madness. Speaking of foreign languages, latinos have absolutely no clue what Clickbank is. It is difficult enough already to sell to them, but now you are making it way more difficult. I can guarantee you that latinos will never EVER start browsing Clickbank marketplace with the intention of buying additional products.

        Eight and last, this header will never work, period. People won't start using Clickbank like they do Amazon. Stop trying to become something you're not. This change is affecting us all. It makes no sense.

        Please, for the love of God, cancel this horrible idea.

        Thanks for reading,
        A fellow Clickbank vendor and affiliate
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296490].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author TheWebGuy
          Originally Posted by Pnigro View Post

          This header thing is the stupidest idea I've ever seen.

          And I'm no newbie, I've been making a living off Clickbank for the past 6 years. Thanks to Clickbank I bought a new house and traveled around the world.

          First of all, from a copywriting perspective, having a Clickbank header is the equivalent of going to a clothing store and seeing a big Coca Cola poster at the entrance, seriously wtf?

          Second, customers reach Clickbank products because they are looking for a solution to their particular problems. They are not interested in browsing a marketplace. Clickbank is NOT Amazon or Ebay.

          Third, most customers don't even know what Clickbank is. If anything, they will get confused by the header, not knowing what the hell is going on.

          Fourth, the sales page itself doesn't work properly. I can't use my arrow keys to move up and down the page, unless I click first on the content. This damages the user experience greatly.

          Fifth, no reputable Internet company uses frames like that anymore. This is not the year 2000.

          Sixth, the URL looks way too spammy. It not only removes the domain branding aspect of the products, but it even scares people.

          Seventh, for foreign languages, when people click on marketplace they are sent to the ENGLISH version of Clickbank. This is obviously a bug, but the whole thing is just madness. Speaking of foreign languages, latinos have absolutely no clue what Clickbank is. It is difficult enough already to sell to them, but now you are making it way more difficult. I can guarantee you that latinos will never EVER start browsing Clickbank marketplace with the intention of buying additional products.

          Eight and last, this header will never work, period. People won't start using Clickbank like they do Amazon. Stop trying to become something you're not. This change is affecting us all. It makes no sense.

          Please, for the love of God, cancel this horrible idea.

          Thanks for reading,
          A fellow Clickbank vendor and affiliate
          Spot on! If they need people to know they bought something through Clickbank ...include Clickbank on the buy now buttons or right below it "i.e. ...Secure Payment By Clickbank".

          Because another comparison is if someone goes to buy a product and that is sold through Paypal ...and the pitch page for the product has just a PayPal header. It makes no sense. It makes sense to be near the payment button/payment area if anything. Clickbank needs to position themselves a secure payment processor in consumers minds (like paypal) ...and continue to position themselves as a great affiliate network for affiliates and vendors.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296504].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author YuanHao
    Great news! But, we still have to be careful. I'm already signing up to other services to see which ones are promising, as I just realized putting all my eggs in the Clickbank basket may not be the best idea.

    BOISE, August 26, 2015 – ClickBank, a global Internet retailer of digital products, today announced the appointment of Tricia Phillips as the new Chief Operating Officer. She brings more than a decade and a half of experience in the e-commerce, payment and risk management space.
    Could this have something to do with the new CEO? Maybe her "decade of experience" is from other styles of market and she is trying to force something without really understanding such basic concepts as delaying the pay button, sales funnel, presell, things that seem so trivial to any vendor or affiliate doing some thousands of bucks a month?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296464].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author TweetPilot
      She used to work for Visa. End of.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296474].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Lucian Lada
    They canceled the test.

    Here's the email a friend of mine has just received from them:

    Hello,

    We are listening, and we hear you.

    Our testing with the iframe to extend brand recognition has been concluded. The vendor pitch pages that were included in the test will no longer show in an iframe for hop traffic.

    As a reminder of our previous communications, the performance marketing industry is undergoing significant changes as a result of the increase in online fraud, coinciding with the rollout of new embedded microchip credit cards. ClickBank is working closely with the payment brands and our partners to decrease one area of fraud and risk, associated with the lack of recognition of the ClickBank Internet Retailing brand by consumers, due to our unique marketing model with you our clients.

    We need your partnership in this.

    The ClickBank brand must be part of the funnel and at the top of any screen with a ClickBank payment link, to reduce the volume of consumers who report their charges as fraudulent due to the lack of awareness of the ClickBank brand. This is a problem that affects you as much as ClickBank since you lose revenue from the buyer, affiliate commissions are returned, and the consumer ultimately opts-out of future purchases or subscriptions from you.

    We are actively evaluating the data we gathered during our test to see what iterative changes should be made to the format and content of the header, though we will not serve it through an iframe. As we make modifications to our approach, we will keep you updated.

    Thank you again for the feedback. Our desire is to adapt our solutions and offering to best accommodate the needs of affiliates, vendors and consumers. We value our partnership with you and look forward to the next phase of our growth together.

    Best Regards,
    Lyz
    Client Service Manager
    Clickbank.com
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296560].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author YuanHao
      Originally Posted by Lucian Lada View Post

      They canceled the test.

      Here's the email a friend of mine has just received from them:
      I think this basically means "we really screwed everything guys, so we'll try to cover up with some kind of story". It would be much easier for us if they told the truth and did something to remove that lady from VISA from our once beloved Clickbank.

      Anyway, a header and some link to Clickbank reducing conversions to any more than 20% is a complete turn off for me. Too much money on the line.

      They should control vendors with bad refunds and chargebacks. My refunds and chargebacks are less than 2% and less than 1% respectively, so in reality refunds have nothing to do with the brand and everything to do with the vendor. It's unacceptable that vendors are using shady tactics directly involving them in refund rates of 5% or 10%, seriously?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296580].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Lucian Lada
        Originally Posted by YuanHao View Post

        I think this basically means "we really screwed everything guys, so we'll try to cover up with some kind of story". It would be much easier for us if they told the truth and did something to remove that lady from VISA from our once beloved Clickbank.
        The main problem is that they didn't give up completely. They want to bring it back in the future, as stated in the email.

        But yeah, their entire explanation makes no sense.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296593].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
    "The ClickBank brand must be part of the funnel and at the top of any screen with a ClickBank payment link, to reduce the volume of consumers who report their charges as fraudulent due to the lack of awareness of the ClickBank brand."

    There are many possible solutions to this, none of which involve messing up the product sales pages.

    For example, changing the credit card statement so that people recognize their purchase when they see it on their account.

    It is not a good idea to brand every sales page with Clickbank, especially foreign products. But more importantly, it won't reduce the number of chargebacks and refunds.

    Seriously, they are way off with this.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296614].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
      Many of the entries on statements are vague or unclear abbreviations, often of corporate names and not the 'brand name' on a store.

      How could it be that ClickBank is getting pounded because whenever someone sees 'Clickbank' they think of fraud? CB said they had one of the most trusted and reputable names.

      Does any other company have this problem?

      I've seen companies with obscure initials as names have thousands of online transactions without this type of issue.

      Solutions:

      - Change the name. Clickbank has a bad reputation and the name hardly induces trust. The excuse could be a more international name, or one recognizing with mobile devices people are tapping and not clicking.

      - Get the Clickbank name up to 90 point font in blinking red letters on the order page letting buyers know that is what is showing up on statements.

      - Do a better job dealing with fraud complaints by collecting and showing the date, IP address, name and address of the buyer to show they ordered the product.

      With the giveaway refund policy it's surprising any buyers need to make a fraud complaint with the possible risk and hassle of having their card canceled and reissued.

      .
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296706].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Stephen Carter
    in addition to the fact that ClickBank is doing away with the iframe (which is huge) this bit sounds promising "The ClickBank brand must be part of the funnel and at the top of any screen with a ClickBank payment link"

    that means one approach might be to use a sandwich page between the sales page and the ClickBank order page - one that explains the nature of ClickBank and satisfies all of the ClickBank branding concerns.

    it might even improve the conversion rates if it is done properly as it will make the CB order page just one more step in the overall payment process. many vendors already go to the trouble of spelling out exactly what is going to happen on the ClickBank order page (what the customer can expect to see there, etc) so doing all this on a sandwich page (with the header) could keep all the ClickBank branding off the sales page and yet still satisfy ClickBank by making it absolutely clear to the customer who ClickBank is and what the service is they provide. better yet ClickBank could do all this themselves and just add a "presell" page to their order process. then NOTHING would need to be changed on any of the vendor sites.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296696].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
    That "clickbank" branding bs they are spewing is just that - BS.

    You can't buy any product in the clickbank marketplace without first submitting your payment information and agreeing to the terms on a CLICKBANK BRANDED ORDER PAGE.

    If anything maybe put clickbank branding on order buttons kind of like JV Zoo does, but don't ruin the sales process by putting a big banner across the top of the sales page.

    That is just flat out idiotic. Talk about cutting off your nose despite your face.

    They should have known this would kill conversions. Surely they test their own funnels right? or yeah right!
    Signature

    "Human thoughts have the tendency to transform themselves into their physical equivalent." Earl Nightingale

    Super Affiliates Hang Out Here

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296723].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author ClickBank
      Hi All,

      Hopefully I can provide a bit of clarity to some of the comments in this thread and others that I have seen, regarding our iframe test. First, I want to note that for the sake of brevity, I will not post full quotes with links to each comment, but rather capture and paraphrase the gist of what was stated. I do apologize in advance if you feel I have taken something out of context and will be happy to correct that mistake.

      To begin with, I want to address a number of points that have been suggested:

      1. ClickBank made this change under the advice of a brand consultant or out of a brand building exercise.
      2. ClickBank is attempting to build technology to steal commissions.
      3. ClickBank is getting rid of all health and fitness products
      4. The iframe test "crushed conversions and sales for everyone"... for top vendors, it "crushed their products"
      5. ClickBank is dying
      6. ClickBank is a payment processor
      7. The iframe test broke the affiliate links
      8. ClickBank will implement this change whether people have something to say about it or not.
      9. The added links to the iframe header sent so much traffic away from the pitch page
      10. ClickBank ended this test because of how terrible it performed (e.g., conversions, sales)
      11. This has something to do with the new CEO
      12. This has something to do with the new COO formerly employed by Visa
      13. Some conversions were reduced by 20%
      14. ClickBank's plan is to gather all the traffic sent to them and then put those consumers on a mailing list to sell to.
      15. Customers now have to opt-in to 2 separate mail lists
      16. This change was never about reducing fraud. It was purely to spread ClickBank's brand at the expense of all vendors.

      Every statement I paraphrased above is completely false.

      Some other statements that I have seen which I would like to address:

      1. This can never come back ClickBank! I hope you're listening.
      2. ClickBank needs to wake up now and fix this.
      3. If they need people to know they've bought something through ClickBank ...include ClickBank on the buy now buttons or right below it
      4. I would imagine that this conversation is taking place in other forums and groups that ClickBank employees are part of as well

      We are listening and we hear you. We are paying attention to what is being said in tickets that our support team receives. We are observing the various forums and groups where people are responding to these changes. We are listening as we talk to you directly. You may have received or seen an email (pasted below this post) that we sent out regarding the cessation of our iframe test.

      In all of our communications, we have been clear that there is a movement of fraud online that is creating risk for your business and our business. The impacts of this will affect the entire performance marketing space, not just ClickBank. We have been working closely with the payments industry and our clients to find workable solutions to these issues.

      Unlike some of the theories we have seen regarding this change being about brand awareness, the reality is that we are targeting one very real, growing and specific risk area where consumers are confused by the ClickBank name on their credit card statements.

      To that end, we have been reading and discussing your suggestions such as:

      1. One approach might be to use a sandwich page between the sales page and the ClickBank order page
      2. Change the soft descriptor to be more clear about the product association from the purchase
      3. Put ClickBank on the Buy Now buttons or right below it.

      We are always interested in hearing from and working with our clients to grow business together.

      Thanks,
      The ClickBank Team

      Below follows the email referenced above:
      ================================
      Dear Clients,

      We are listening, and we hear you.

      Our testing with the iframe to extend brand recognition has been concluded. The vendor pitch pages that were included in the test will no longer show in an iframe for hop traffic.

      As a reminder of our previous communications, the performance marketing industry is undergoing significant changes as a result of the increase in online fraud, coinciding with the rollout of new embedded microchip credit cards. ClickBank is working closely with the payment brands and our partners to decrease one area of fraud and risk, associated with the lack of recognition of the ClickBank Internet Retailing brand by consumers, due to our unique marketing model with you our clients.

      We need your partnership in this.

      The ClickBank brand must be part of the funnel and at the top of any screen with a ClickBank payment link, to reduce the volume of consumers who report their charges as fraudulent due to the lack of awareness of the ClickBank brand. This is a problem that affects you as much as ClickBank since you lose revenue from the buyer, affiliate commissions are returned, and the consumer ultimately opts-out of future purchases or subscriptions from you.

      We are actively evaluating the data we gathered during our test to see what iterative changes should be made to the format and content of the header, though we will not serve it through an iframe. As we make modifications to our approach, we will keep you updated.

      Thank you again for the feedback. Our desire is to adapt our solutions and offering to best accommodate the needs of affiliates, vendors and consumers. We value our partnership with you and look forward to the next phase of our growth together.

      Thank You,
      ClickBank
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296931].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
        Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

        Unlike some of the theories we have seen regarding this change being about brand awareness, the reality is that we are targeting one very real, growing and specific risk area where consumers are confused by the ClickBank name on their credit card statements.

        To that end, we have been reading and discussing your suggestions such as:

        1. One approach might be to use a sandwich page between the sales page and the ClickBank order page
        2. Change the soft descriptor to be more clear about the product association from the purchase
        3. Put ClickBank on the Buy Now buttons or right below it.

        We are always interested in hearing from and working with our clients to grow business together.

        Thanks,
        The ClickBank Team
        Not sure if it's physically possible yet or at all, but why not make the credit card statement descriptor be dynamic where it has Clickbank:[Shortened Product Name]

        As far as the 3 suggestions above you are contemplating, the only way #1 would work is just having a white page that has text that says something like "You are being transferred to Clickbank's Secure Payment Processing Page To Place Your Order, If It Does Not Redirect In 3 Seconds, Click Here"

        Although I wouldn't do it at all. Your order page has your branding all over it.
        Signature

        "Human thoughts have the tendency to transform themselves into their physical equivalent." Earl Nightingale

        Super Affiliates Hang Out Here

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296998].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
        Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

        Unlike some of the theories we have seen regarding this change being about brand awareness, the reality is that we are targeting one very real, growing and specific risk area where consumers are confused by the ClickBank name on their credit card statements.
        If that is really the case, then like we have said, there are much better ways to do that than including a big Clickbank header on every sales page.

        I am really surprised that this was the best solution you came up with.

        My customers are from Latin America and they are very reluctant to buy stuff online.

        One of my products in Spanish deals with Temporomandibular Joint Disorders.

        Would it make any sense to have a big CLICKBANK header on top of my website?

        The name Clickbank itself implies some sort of bank or money related product. And on top of that it's an English name, which clashes completely with a Spanish sales page.

        And that is just a couple of reasons why it's a bad idea. I already gave a big list on the previous page.

        Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

        To that end, we have been reading and discussing your suggestions such as:

        1. One approach might be to use a sandwich page between the sales page and the ClickBank order page
        2. Change the soft descriptor to be more clear about the product association from the purchase
        3. Put ClickBank on the Buy Now buttons or right below it.
        Thank you, we are very glad that you're listening.

        More suggestions:

        4) Be more strict with Thank You pages, forcing vendors to tell customers in big and bold letters that their card statements are going to show Clickbank.

        5) Include the Clickbank header on Thank You pages.

        6) Roll out whatever change you plan only on those vendors with high chargeback rates, instead of every product on Clickbank.

        8) Require ebook covers to include the phrase "Sold by Clickbank".

        9) Require ebooks to have "Sold by Clickbank" on the footer of every page.

        10) For non-ebook products, find ways to include the phrase "Sold by Clickbank" on their product content.

        11) Seriously consider the impact of such changes on foreign products.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10297013].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
          Originally Posted by Pnigro View Post

          8) Require ebook covers to include the phrase "Sold by Clickbank".

          9) Require ebooks to have "Sold by Clickbank" on the footer of every page.

          10) For non-ebook products, find ways to include the phrase "Sold by Clickbank" on their product content.
          I said I would pack up - I really will now

          8, 9, 10 are terrible, since it requires a different version of the product just for ClickBank if you are selling elsewhere, and every single existing product would have to be redesigned - in cases of software, re-certified and re-signed - plus vendors would have to maintain 2 versions (which programmers hate) if they are selling on ClickBank and say offline as well. It would also means an ebook cover might not match the physical book. Plus it would also make hard for vendors to migrate existing products into ClickBank.

          But the rest of your suggestions are reasonable.
          Signature
          ClickBank Vendor?
          - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
          - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
          - Killer Graphics for Your Site
          SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10297028].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
            Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

            I said I would pack up - I really will now

            8, 9, 10 are terrible, since it requires a different version of the product just for ClickBank if you are selling elsewhere, and every single existing product would have to be redesigned - in cases of software, re-certified and re-signed - plus vendors would have to maintain 2 versions (which programmers hate) if they are selling on ClickBank and say offline as well. It would also means an ebook cover might not match the physical book. Plus it would also make hard for vendors to migrate existing products into ClickBank.

            But the rest of your suggestions are reasonable.
            Yeah you're probably right.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10297035].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author TweetPilot
          My main concern is that Clickbank even thought up this ridiculous idea!

          So you've got a problem with customers seeing Clickbank on their credit card statements and someone at Clickbank thinks: "Hmm, I know what'll fix that, an incredibly obtrusive banner with the Clickbank logo and a link to some unknown marketplace with completely irrelevant products"

          That's completely missing the point so there's two explanations here:
          a) You're lying and it was about brand awareness
          b) You're clueless

          All this 'experiment' has lead to is me (and other vendors) looking at the alternatives such as FastSpring and realising that there are far superior options out there, charging lower fees that won't come up with these ridiculous ideas.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10297034].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author emilsb
        Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

        11. This has something to do with the new CEO
        12. This has something to do with the new COO formerly employed by Visa
        Really?

        Oh, I fully understand now...

        What is the purpose of new management? To carefully follow the old plan, do the same thing as their predecessors did, and never come with any new "game-changing" ideas.

        MM-hmm. Yeh right.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10297108].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
        Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

        In all of our communications, we have been clear that there is a movement of fraud online that is creating risk for your business and our business. The impacts of this will affect the entire performance marketing space, not just ClickBank. We have been working closely with the payments industry and our clients to find workable solutions to these issues.

        Unlike some of the theories we have seen regarding this change being about brand awareness, the reality is that we are targeting one very real, growing and specific risk area where consumers are confused by the ClickBank name on their credit card statements.
        Customer confusion is not a fraud issue.

        CB needs to get its story straight because nothing in this misadventure addresses fraud. I'm not even sure it addresses consumer confusion except to create even more by having a banner for site A on a product creator's site B.

        Remember in the podcast when the CB executive said this scheme was to address an expected increase in online credit card fraud because new chipped cards would make it harder for fraudulent in person purchases?

        Remember that?

        The banner thingy addresses that issue how?

        So forget the fraud. This isn't about fraud. It's now about consumers deciding to do chargebacks and risking their cards because they don't recognize the Clickbank name on a charge and can't remember what it was for.

        I'm sorry, but if I see an Amazon charge or PayPal charge I may not remember what I bought, but I don't run to my bank claiming fraud.

        Is CB banning these idiots? (Assuming this really is such a problem)

        I don't see this is a pre-purchase issue but rather a during purchase and post-purchase problem - wholly within ClickBank's control - to make sure buyers understand what name will be listed as the seller and to remember that name.

        That's ClickBank's problem in not properly educating buyers. Leave the vendors and affiliates alone.

        Send a follow-up email confirming the purchase.

        Do like Warrior Payments does and after a few days send an email requesting a product review.

        Send a letter thanking the buyer for the purchase and recommending other products or referrals. Or send an email if this issue isn't significant enough to justify a stamp.

        Reading between the lines, assuming this folly is actually being caused by Visa then give vendors a 'ClickBank quality assurance logo' to put on sales pages (not a top banner) and perhaps give prospective buyers the ability to click on it to verify the seller, and then on the CB order page refer to the same logo and have more trust information with the CB name, then do more post-purchase education about CB.

        Feel free to hire me and a few others on this thread, and knock-off the BS which is costing the company sellers, affiliates and reputation.

        .
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10297168].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
          Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

          Remember in the podcast when the CB executive said this scheme was to address an expected increase in online credit card fraud because new chipped cards would make it harder for fraudulent in person purchases?

          Remember that?

          The banner thingy addresses that issue how?
          It doesn't.

          The banner makes absolutely no difference on credit card fraud.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10297184].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author alodie
          Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

          Customer confusion is not a fraud issue.

          CB needs to get its story straight because nothing in this misadventure addresses fraud. I'm not even sure it addresses consumer confusion except to create even more by having a banner for site A on a product creator's site B.

          Remember in the podcast when the CB executive said this scheme was to address an expected increase in online credit card fraud because new chipped cards would make it harder for fraudulent in person purchases?

          Remember that?

          The banner thingy addresses that issue how?

          So forget the fraud. This isn't about fraud. It's now about consumers deciding to do chargebacks and risking their cards because they don't recognize the Clickbank name on a charge and can't remember what it was for.

          I'm sorry, but if I see an Amazon charge or PayPal charge I may not remember what I bought, but I don't run to my bank claiming fraud.

          Is CB banning these idiots? (Assuming this really is such a problem)

          I don't see this is a pre-purchase issue but rather a during purchase and post-purchase problem - wholly within ClickBank's control - to make sure buyers understand what name will be listed as the seller and to remember that name.

          That's ClickBank's problem in not properly educating buyers. Leave the vendors and affiliates alone.

          Send a follow-up email confirming the purchase.

          Do like Warrior Payments does and after a few days send an email requesting a product review.

          Send a letter thanking the buyer for the purchase and recommending other products or referrals. Or send an email if this issue isn't significant enough to justify a stamp.

          Reading between the lines, assuming this folly is actually being caused by Visa then give vendors a 'ClickBank quality assurance logo' to put on sales pages (not a top banner) and perhaps give prospective buyers the ability to click on it to verify the seller, and then on the CB order page refer to the same logo and have more trust information with the CB name, then do more post-purchase education about CB.

          Feel free to hire me and a few others on this thread, and knock-off the BS which is costing the company sellers, affiliates and reputation.

          .

          Hi Kindsvater,

          "
          Feel free to hire me and a few others on this thread, and knock-off the
          BS which is costing the company sellers, affiliates and reputation." ...

          ...And I couldn't help but to smile at the fervor with which you seem to
          present your points/arguments on this critical Clickbank issue.

          But you have made some very solid points in this post. Made me think.

          Thanks a million.

          Cheers,

          Alodieanne
          .
          Signature
          "Providing personal and business transformational information: Working hard to always give the kind of value that will produce the best results for my customers. Because, the success of my business will depend on my customers' satisfaction."


          Alodieanne
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10382290].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author stackman
        Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

        Hi All,

        In all of our communications, we have been clear that there is a movement of fraud online that is creating risk for your business and our business. The impacts of this will affect the entire performance marketing space, not just ClickBank. We have been working closely with the payments industry and our clients to find workable solutions to these issues.

        Unlike some of the theories we have seen regarding this change being about brand awareness, the reality is that we are targeting one very real, growing and specific risk area where consumers are confused by the ClickBank name on their credit card statements.ClickBank
        You could have fooled me that this was your intention, especially since you stated otherwise in your email to me. So which is it? Branding or fraud protection? This whole response is a load of BS.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10297254].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author agmccall
        Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

        In all of our communications, we have been clear that there is a movement of fraud online that is creating risk for your business and our business. The impacts of this will affect the entire performance marketing space, not just ClickBank. We have been working closely with the payments industry and our clients to find workable solutions to these issues.
        Can somebody, anybody, please tell me how this header, with all it's links and leaks, would combat fraud.

        al
        Signature

        "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10298429].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
    The ClickBank brand must be part of the funnel and at the top of any screen with a ClickBank payment link, to reduce the volume of consumers who report their charges as fraudulent due to the lack of awareness of the ClickBank brand. This is a problem that affects you as much as ClickBank since you lose revenue from the buyer, affiliate commissions are returned, and the consumer ultimately opts-out of future purchases or subscriptions from you.
    I don't know how often people charge-back because they don't recognize ClickBank on their billing statement, but I'm struggling to believe it's that much because nowaday's many people statements are full of generic things like "PayPal", - plus many vendors rarely get charge-backs (I don't remember the last charge-back I had).


    But if ClickBank are genuinely concerned that people might charge-back because they do NOT expect ClickBank to appear on their credit card statement, there is a really easy solution which does not require changing the entire sales funnel..

    1. Put in prominent text (not some tiny grey footer) on the clickbank's payment form the following text: "This purchase will appear on your credit card statement as being from ClickBank"

    2. Put the same text on the post-payment page

    3. Put the same text within the email receipt that they send to customers

    4. Ask/Require vendors to put the same text on their thank you pages


    This will have virtually no effect on conversion or SEO, doesn't break existing websites, doesn't cause technical problems, doesn't destroy vendors brand/identity. And I doubt anybody would have real objection to suchchanges.

    There's also one more thing they could potentially do. A few years ago, I asked at a meeting with ClickBank why they don't put the product name (which ClickBank knows) on the customer's billing statement. e.g. so instead of "ClickBank.com" appearing on the statement it would say "ClickBank - Weight Loss eBook" or "ClickBank - Internet Marketing Course by ...." or whatever. I was told this was possible, but would cost them some extra money. Maybe they should look into this again. I did notice without something else I purchased recently through another online retail system, that they didn exactly that.
    Signature
    ClickBank Vendor?
    - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
    - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
    - Killer Graphics for Your Site
    SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296874].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Lucian Lada
    I rarely, if ever, fall for the conspiracy theory, but this time I'm inclined to believe that they weren't aiming for what they said.

    Just look at how many much better alternatives to that stupid header were offered in this thread and we're just a handful of people. Imagine if they really wanted to look after the client, how many possible ways their teams would have come up with.

    Anyway, just to show you how much Clickbank cares about its affiliates (and vendors), I emailed them, asking if I'll be credited with a sale if I send someone to a sales page, but leaves to the Marketplace via the header and buys some other stuff. They said no.

    In other words, even if they would want, in the future, to offer marketplace-wide cookies to affiliates, right now they said something to the effect of, "F*ck them - let's screw with their earnings for a day and see how it goes."

    But here's the reply I got from them:

    Hello,

    Thank you for your inquiry! You will only be credited if the customer buys the product you referred them to. This is a widespread concern for affiliates and at this time we have disabled the header to better address issues similar to this. Please stay tuned! We will continue to communicate with clients through email about this new change.

    Please let me know if I can be of further assistance!
    "This is a widespread concern for affiliates and at this time we have disabled the header to better address issues similar to this"? Gee, I bet they didn't see this one coming. It would have taken an Einstein to foresee it.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296892].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
      Last comment before I finish for the day:

      It feels like some marketing consultant has said to CB.

      1. "You're a retailer"

      2. Text books about retailers usually say branding is important, the more the better.

      3. There you should put your brand everywhere in the marketing funnel.

      If there is such a guy - he t hasn't understood what actually drives ClickBank sales - which is actually vendors & affiliates.

      The better CB supports and enables vendors & affiliates, the more of them they will recruit, and the more the existing ones will sell.

      This is what CB ought to be focusing on.

      Customers are not interested in CB's brand. They don't wake up one morning thinking..."I'll buy a digital product, where should I shop for it, and which one should I choose? Oh, I know I'll go to a digital marketplace and do some shopping.".

      Instead customers have a problem, whether it's losing weight, or building a shed, or keeping their kids busy with paper crafts on a rainy afternoon - and they look for a vendor who supplies a solution to their current need.

      CB's brand is pretty much irrelevant to the way customers actually shop.

      CB shouldn't be ashamed of that. If they can make a lot of money by being a brand that vendors use, but customers just consider part of the background plumbing - that's better than making far less money, but being slightly more famous.
      Signature
      ClickBank Vendor?
      - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
      - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
      - Killer Graphics for Your Site
      SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296922].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
        Amazon burned thru billions and billions of investor dollars building an all singing and dancing website, in multiple countriee and languages, creating their own products like kindle, prime, and amazon tv, distribution, building warehouses and shipping, on advertising and so on.

        I dont see cb doing any of those things - their business is built on vendors and affiliates creating the products, vendors and affils doing the marketing, vendors and affils driving traffic, and vendors delivering the product (yes i know cb sends an email but the vendor hosts the files, membersite, etc).

        So while amazon and cb are both retailers, and both have websites that is about as far as the similarities go, the underlying business is completely different.

        If cb want to try to start a digital amazon, i suggest that create a 2nd entirely separate website & brand for that, and invite vendors to join. Rather than destroying their existing successful model. If cb's digital amazon. Is really better, then vendors will want to join without being compelled.

        It should have been a huge clue to cb that the digital shopping portal was bad, by the simple fact that the only way to make vendors participate was to force them. What's done is done, and at least cb listened, but going forward cb should realise that most vendors do actually know something about their business - that vendors can recognize negative change - and that vendors and affiliates can switch to other platforms relatively easily.


        Changing topic slightly: i just want to add

        1. Most cb vendors are involved in direct response marketing

        2. Putting "clickbank" at the very top of the 1st page that a new visitor sees will always be the kiss of death to thus type of marketing.

        3. The reason is that the visitor reached the page by clicking on a link (email, ad, or seo) which offered a solution to a problem, whether its weight loss, learning photoshop, or whatever.

        4. When a visitor arrives on a page which says clickbank at the very top, they will think they clicked the wrong link, or the site is no longer offering what it originally offered, or its a parked page, or its a phishing attempt (the word "bank" in cb probably adds to this too), etc. The bounce rate is bound to be enormous. High bounce rate means it is no longer profitable for vendors or affiliates to advertise.
        Signature
        ClickBank Vendor?
        - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
        - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
        - Killer Graphics for Your Site
        SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10298704].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
      Originally Posted by Lucian Lada View Post

      Anyway, just to show you how much Clickbank cares about its affiliates (and vendors), I emailed them, asking if I'll be credited with a sale if I send someone to a sales page, but leaves to the Marketplace via the header and buys some other stuff. They said no.

      In other words, even if they would want, in the future, to offer marketplace-wide cookies to affiliates, right now they said something to the effect of, "F*ck them - let's screw with their earnings for a day and see how it goes."
      It doesn't matter, no customer is going to click on the header and then buy from the marketplace, especially if they're shown "featured products" that have NOTHING TO DO with what they're looking for.

      It's such a stupid idea!

      Clickbank is not Amazon.

      The visitors are going to get confused and distracted. If anything it's going to hurt sales by sending people away from the sales page.

      There are so many things wrong with this whole thing.

      If they want people to buy from the marketplace they can always send customers there after they buy or through follow up emails.

      That would also take care of the brand awareness thing.

      Jesus Christ.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296945].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Lucian Lada
    Why I don't really get, if they only wanted to brand themselves, is why on earth did they also put a link to the marketplace?

    Why on earth would you include such a big, fat leak in a BIG, FLOATING HEADER? The only way to make this leak even bigger would have been to put a picture of Ronald McDonald, aiming at the "Marketplace" button and saying "Click here, and you'll get a free hamburger from us."
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296939].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author joaquin112
    It's outrageous how dumb the header idea was. It really makes me question the intelligence of whoever runs ClickBank and makes me want to run as far away from the company as possible.
    Signature

    Publish your digital course at Accomplisher.com. We create the video sales letter, drive affiliate traffic and split the profits with you. If you want to start making money by teaching online, submit your application here.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296960].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author nolan59
      Clickbank - this was no test, your email said : "ClickBank product vendors are now required to include a small JavaScript code on all pages within their marketing funnel. This code simply returns a piece of HTML content that injects a thin ClickBank-branded header on top of the page.". If it was a test you would have worked closely with a few vendors to test the system before rolling it out.

      Your email also said "Recently, we sent you an email detailing a very important update to the ClickBank platform about the Always On Shopping Portal." - no such email was ever received to any of my clickbank accounts (I have 3). I have also not received the "retraction" email you refer to, to any of my Clickbank accounts. In other words the only communication I ever received in this regards was your email forcing me to implement your idea.

      We are listening and we hear you. We are paying attention to what is being said in tickets that our support team receives. We are observing the various forums and groups where people are responding to these changes. We are listening as we talk to you directly. You may have received or seen an email (pasted below this post) that we sent out regarding the cessation of our iframe test.
      You were not listening at all. You are only listening now because we are all furious at the impractical idea you forced on us. Just the fact that we are talking on Warrior Forum should be enough indication to you that you are totally out of touch with your vendors and have no clue what we need or are thinking.

      To listen means you are in a continual dialog with us (the product creators). I suggest you start a forum of your own on the Clickbank website for you to chat with us (the product creators) so that in future we have a voice before implementing crazy ideas like this.

      I don't think you realise how much this badly thought through and forced change has damaged your reputation with your vendors. It is certainly going to take me a while to regain my confidence in Clickbank and the verdict is still out on whether to move to a different supplier - will depend on whether the final decision / implementation of this "Always On" system will be acceptable or not.

      From a very disappointed vendor
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10297022].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
        @nolan59, at least they realized they made a mistake and cancelled the whole thing.

        Judging by the "it can be hard to embrace some of these changes" comment from their blog post, I was scared they were going to stubbornly stick with it.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10297033].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author trevord92
    Am I the only one who missed the wording that this was a "test" in the email that Clickbank sent out?

    The email said Clickbank "are actively testing several variations of the Always On Shopping Portal to remove impact on conversions."

    It also said "vendors are now required to include a small JavaScript code on all pages within their marketing funnel."

    To my mind that isn't the same as "we're testing and may backtrack on this idea completely".
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10296975].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      I noticed the wording in the original email, but...

      that wording implies that variations are being tested. To me, that implies split testing of sorts, and does not imply that NO HEADER is one of the tested options.


      Originally Posted by trevord92 View Post

      Am I the only one who missed the wording that this was a "test" in the email that Clickbank sent out?

      The email said Clickbank "are actively testing several variations of the Always On Shopping Portal to remove impact on conversions."

      It also said "vendors are now required to include a small JavaScript code on all pages within their marketing funnel."

      To my mind that isn't the same as "we're testing and may backtrack on this idea completely".
      I think ClickBank was well aware of both vendor and affiliate reactions before actually beginning their "tests". If not, they should have been, as they have a representative here on the WF, and we have been pretty vocal since first finding out about it.

      Their first mistake was in committing to make such a sweeping change without first gauging the reaction of vendors and affiliates. In a lot of ways, the email was already too late. They had plenty of opportunity to ask for feedback long before their announcement.

      While they are a retailer, unlike Amazon or Walmart... they do NOT have buyer traffic to their marketplace!!! They have a very definite dependence on the traffic delivered by affiliates and apparently have NO idea what a leaky sales page means to their affiliate marketers.

      They had to run internal tests of this just to make sure the code would work, but they lied to themselves when trying to rationalize the impact on their suppliers and affiliates. They had an "agenda", and determined the viability of their plan based on whether or not it served just that narrow purpose.
      Signature

      Sid Hale
      Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10297037].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
        I call BS on this...

        Originally Posted by ClickBank

        The ClickBank brand must be part of the funnel and at the top of any screen with a ClickBank payment link, to reduce the volume of consumers who report their charges as fraudulent due to the lack of awareness of the ClickBank brand. This is a problem that affects you as much as ClickBank since you lose revenue from the buyer, affiliate commissions are returned, and the consumer ultimately opts-out of future purchases or subscriptions from you.
        Given her experience at Visa (assuming that report was correct), your new COO may be qualified with regard to credit card processing - but if she was instrumental in this decision (implied because of her background), I would remind you that those credentials don't necessarily have squat to do with selling products online.

        As has been pointed out in this thread, many affiliates and vendors are experiencing very acceptable refund rates, indicating that ClickBank branding is simply NOT an issue with regard to refunds.

        Well... maybe I'll backpedal a little on that last statement, because:

        It has also been widely reported (in other threads on this forum) that Clickbank ALWAYS succumbs to any/all refund requests and have become known as a haven for serial refunders. If ClickBank is so concerned about the shift of credit card fraud to the online markets, perhaps they (and the CC companies as well, for that matter) should proactively address that problem rather than supposedly trying to "pre-empt" a problem that may/may not yet exist.

        ClickBank's habit of simply rolling over to any refund request may be just one more good reason NOT to encumber a vendor's sales page with ClickBank branding. Nothing like advertising to everyone "Buy from me, cause then you can ask for an immediate refund".
        Signature

        Sid Hale
        Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10297058].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author joaquin112
    Better solution is to have the credit card statement descriptor be chosen by the vendor for each individual product (and possibly approved by Clickbank). Having a descriptor for the whole account might not be the best approach since many vendors have widely different products.
    Signature

    Publish your digital course at Accomplisher.com. We create the video sales letter, drive affiliate traffic and split the profits with you. If you want to start making money by teaching online, submit your application here.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10297007].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
      Originally Posted by joaquin112 View Post

      Better solution is to have the credit card statement descriptor be chosen by the vendor for each individual product (and possibly approved by Clickbank). Having a descriptor for the whole account might not be the best approach since many vendors have widely different products.
      Thats not as easy as it sounds.

      From my past experience with merchant accounts, you usually are only provided 1 per account.

      I could be wrong, or it could have changed, or its different for clickbank bc they are a monster company, but it may not be as easy as giving every vendor their own descriptor - unless they get their own merchant account.
      Signature

      "Human thoughts have the tendency to transform themselves into their physical equivalent." Earl Nightingale

      Super Affiliates Hang Out Here

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10297040].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author emilsb
        Clickbank: So, you're listening - then listen this feedback, loud and clear:

        HELL NO!

        You are now driving away sellers at the speed of light. Not only the existing ones, but new ones too. The only way to prevent this is to forget about this ridiculous idea.

        You're not going to have the chance of putting any kind of IFRAME on my own sites, to mess with all the difficult work I've done so far. Years of SEO can be damaged through your iframe. Navigation is wrecked.

        How about site appearance? And branding? Your banner and brand has nothing to do with sellers websites. You are a service provider, you are not the seller's brand. Keep your brand ON your site. That's where it belongs.

        I disagree with the belief that this doesn't affect affiliates.

        IF IT AFFECTS SELLERS, THEN IT AFFECTS AFFILIATES TOO.

        Fewer sellers will be available. Power sellers will walk away. Conversion rates will be (are) going down. Site functionality will be affected by the IFRAME interacting with the other content. And so on.

        Personal note: I'm about to release several products on different niches. I know from the beta testing that they might be tremendously successful. Not the usual BS, but products based on years of experience and designed with the main purpose of conveying value. Guess what - they'll be nowhere near CB. There are so many other options, including JVZoo. Meet me there.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10297072].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author nolan59
        Tweet I fully agree on the lying statement.

        I also listened to the podcast the CB Vice president did about this change and the whole reason for this Always On bar was combating fraud as well as charge backs because the customer doesn't recognise the listing on their bank statement.

        Adding a clickbank logo to the top of a website is NOT going to scare off a fraudster. Neither will a link to the CB marketplace, etc. Security precautions implemented when the card is processed will combat fraudulent transactions.

        I personally do not believe that fraud is now suddenly on the rise any more than it has before. In all the years I have been doing business online (through CB and other payment systems), I have not experienced that at all.

        To combat refunds and chargebacks you need customer awareness on the bank statement, not at the point of sale. If the customer has forgotten or does not recognise the transaction on their statement by the time they get the statement, then no amount of branding at the POS is going to make any difference because they have forgotten.

        In all my years selling online I can count on less than one hand how many chargebacks I have received due to a customer not knowing who the charge on their credit card statement was from.

        Vendors know what their refund and chargeback rates are so it is impossible to tell them otherwise and expect them to believe it.

        Even the support drop down would have made no difference to fraud / refund rates, etc. It would be used for pre-sales questions like "If I buy the upgrade, will I also get XYZ"...

        Nothing about this Always On bar was for the reasons provided imo and that is what has dented my confidence in CB.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10297078].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author emilsb
    One of the ways to make loads of cash is data. For many top internet companies, selling data is one of the ways they make money, if not the biggest one. They all do it.

    I strongly suspect that this is one of those cases.

    The amount of data collected in this way will now increase XX-fold through this header. I bet they carry less about sellers fleeing away, than getting that valuable data.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10297086].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author TweetPilot
      Originally Posted by emilsb View Post

      One of the ways to make loads of cash is data. For many top internet companies, selling data is one of the ways they make money, if not the biggest one. They all do it.

      I strongly suspect that this is one of those cases.

      The amount of data collected in this way will now increase XX-fold through this header. I bet they carry less about sellers fleeing away, than getting that valuable data.
      That's one hell of a conspiracy... But it is the internet and anything is believable especially after Clickbank have proven their stupidity with this bar.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10297100].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author supereek
    can't even add a new product now without that stupid header.
    i just tried to add the header to one of my wordpress based sales sites.. added their code to the header.php within the head tags.. and it doesn't load. wtf am i supposed to do :/
    followed their whole guide..
    Signature

    Get my fiverr abritage tutorial for free HERE.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10297130].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author milaca
    Thats total BS from clickbank and will kill conversion rates dramatically...!!!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10297173].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author YuanHao
    Are they deaf, stupid, or think we are really that stupid?

    I will write this again, they should let us know what is an acceptable refund or chargeback rate. Maybe they want a lower than 1% chargeback rate -- in such case, affiliates, vendors, and Clickbank all need to work together and:

    1) Create a better product and less hype on the sales page
    2) Give better customer support
    3) Allow slightly more Clickbank branding

    All of these sound promising.... Until you go to Clickbank's dashboard and see these kinds of ads (literally copied):

    Good God! Affiliate Just Made $17,000

    LIVE CASE STUDY: How A Simple BUsiness In a Weird Niche Market Generates Us Over 6-Figures Per Year!
    What the hell? Why are you using shady, scammy marketing strategies from 10 years ago IN YOUR OWN DASHBOARD?

    This is ridiculous.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10297377].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author jvaldes
      I've been looking into this ever since I got the email from ClickBank out of the blue the other day about this crazy header. The more I've looked into it, the more none of this adds up.

      1. They aren't telling us the truth.

      They're saying this is to stop fraud, when nothing about an IFRAME header is going to stop someone from using a stolen credit card online. How dumb do they think we are?

      They say they're rolling this out and then they tell us it was just a test? They can't even be honest there.

      2. ClickBank is going through lots of internal turmoil.

      They just hired someone new from Visa. Right after that, their CEO left--fired or quit...who knows? Then they promote their CTO to be the CEO. And this was just a few weeks ago.

      What CEO would ever want this IFRAME rollout to be the first big initiative under his leadership? They had to know this was going to upset all of us. I can't imagine any CEO rolling something like this out unless he was incredibly stupid or absolutely had no choice.

      3. ClickBank is facing some sort of risk.

      "The ClickBank brand must be part of the funnel and at the top of any screen with a ClickBank payment link."

      This is ultimately what they seem to be pushing for--shoving ClickBank's name and logo everywhere. Their new website pushes them as an "Global Internet Retailer". They put this consumer-facing marketplace on their homepage. They roll out this stupid header.

      My theory is that this has nothing to do with fraud...and everything to do with a risk to how their own business is structured. ClickBank has always had a weird structure. They're the retailer, even though we're the vendor of the products. Technically they're buying the products from us and then reselling them to the consumer. That's why they have to approve our products and even have the right to change prices.

      Maybe that weird structure has caught up with them. They're supposed to be a retailer, but they don't look like a retailer. They're not a credit card processor themselves, so they have to be using some third-party to do that for them. Maybe whoever is processing their credit cards did an audit or something and doesn't like what they see. ClickBank is supposed to be a retailer, but they look an awful lot like a credit card processor. Maybe their own credit card processor doesn't like that?
      • That might explain why they went and hired someone from Visa to try to calm the waters.
      • That might explain why they seem desperate to change their own website to make themselves look like a retailer.
      • That might explain why they quietly and extremely quickly tried to force all of their vendors and affiliates to look like ClickBank.
      If that's the case, maybe they can start telling us all the truth.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10297491].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author stackman
    Clickbank apparently has some delusions of being the Amazon of digital products -- that customers will view them as a marketplace and keep returning for products such as "Make A Million Dollars in a Week", "How to Train your Dog to Stop Farting", and "Improve Your Love Life with WD-40" --- a marketplace for idiots.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10298422].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author professorrosado
      The underscore is the fact that the credit card companies are insisting that the "merchant" of record be held accountable. That's the bottom line!

      So, if you can handle your own transactions in compliance with the credit card companies, then do so. If you can't, then let the processors that have to accommodate their business model to fit the changing and more restrictive credit card industry regulations.

      The fact that there is a "VISA" proficient executive leading CB now and that this effort was their first attempt at alignment is telling.

      CB needs to change. The IM environment is changing too. So it may be time for the "old" ways to give in to the new ones. And with them, the "old" offers that CB would do well in shaking off their shag.

      CB should never have been the whole of your business as some are crying here. Move on! Expand. Prosper in the open sea! The incubation period is over and you need to leave the nest. But I never burn my bridges behind me. I can call my birth home, home still. I just can't be like I was before.

      I lean toward CB's prerogative to transform themselves into a viable model for years to come. The fact that they did not have a decent public marketplace doesn't preclude them of ever developing one!

      I know that if I were the head of CB, I would go after the Amazon model but within the particular digital genre they presently excel in. I do not see any good business reason for any present vendor not to "adapt" to that eventuality.

      Any smart business leader should have been contemplating and preparing their business for these changes in the market. So now you know and it behooves tomorrow's leaders to make the necessary preparations and moves in order to position themselves profitably in the emerging evolution of your market.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10298441].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
        Originally Posted by professorrosado View Post

        I know that if I were the head of CB, I would go after the Amazon model but within the particular digital genre they presently excel in.
        And how exactly would you do that?

        The vendors are the ones who host their products and sales pages. This is what made Clickbank successful in the first place. We as vendors have full control over what we show to our clients.

        We can make split tests. If a particular website design is not working well, we change it. We test different headlines, colors, buttons. We drive traffic to our website. We build our subscribers list. We control and decide the methods of selling. It's classic direct response marketing.

        Amazon is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT business model. They are the ones hosting the products. There are no sales pages. People browse different products in order to decide which to buy. Etc etc.

        Clickbank going the Amazon route is the equivalent of Subway going the Johnny Rockets route.

        Completely different animals.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10298526].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
      Originally Posted by stackman View Post

      Clickbank apparently has some delusions of being the Amazon of digital products -- that customers will view them as a marketplace and keep returning for products such as "Make A Million Dollars in a Week", "How to Train your Dog to Stop Farting", and "Improve Your Love Life with WD-40" --- a marketplace for idiots.
      Even if all the products were excellent, nobody is going to browse and buy CB's digital products that way. Customers search (using google) for solutions to problems and then find a solution, which happens to be a digital product sold via clickbank. Or they are told about things (via email and FB ads) that might solve a problem the advertiser suspects they have, then the buy a solution which happens to be a digital product sold via clickbank.

      Nobody wakes up in the morning thinking, "I feel like buying a digital product, but don't know whether to buy a photoshop tutorial, or a dog training course, or a shed-design manual, or maybe some software for creating fonts, or mp3 audio files that I use as sountrack if I decide to program a game, or PHP script files for drawing animated cats. Who knows!. If only there was a digital market place that listed as an assortment of vendors."
      Signature
      ClickBank Vendor?
      - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
      - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
      - Killer Graphics for Your Site
      SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10298770].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
        My main product has a refund rate of 1.8% and a chargeback rate of 0.7%.

        Is that such a big problem for credit card companies?

        Why would that be an issue?

        I wonder what the overall Clickbank refund rate and chargeback rate is.

        In the end, aren't they all making millions and just giving the money back to customers who didn't find their purchase satisfying?

        Why is it that all of a sudden Clickbank is forced to change the model that has given them success for so many years?
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10298807].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author TweetPilot
    In Clickbank's defence (sort of) I think people are getting the wrong end of the fraud thing (I think).

    From what I understand, Clickbank's problem is that customers are seeing CLICKBANK on their statements and are thinking, what the hell is that and are then reporting it as fraud to their bank/paypal or whatever.

    Clickbank want to push their brand a little more before customers buy so that when they then see the Clickbank name on their statement they don't think it's a fraudulent transaction.

    That's what I understand the excuse is at least.

    Personally after doing plenty of sales through Clickbank, I've rarely found this to be an issue. If you offer a decent product without hiding the fact that the bank statement will show Clickbank then your refunds should be low as would your chargebacks.

    This is just Clickbank coming up with whatever BS excuse they can.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10298439].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author TweetPilot
    Sorry Professorrosado, but I couldn't disagree with you more!?

    I appreciate Clickbank is the 'vendor' legally, and that they therefore are responsible for the product that they are therefore selling to the customer but you really think that means they should go down the Amazon route?

    I don't think everyone on here is saying they use Clickbank and solely Clickbank. In fact, some of the arguments are the fact that they were being forced to use a Clickbank header on pages that didn't just accept Clickbank as a method of payment.

    Clickbank have screwed up big time. The only reason they're under pressure from the credit card companies is because SOME of the vendors sell utter rubbish which has pushed up refund and chargeback rates.

    It all comes back to the products that are being sold. If they were stricter then perhaps we'd be in a better position today.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10298556].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      Couldn't agree more, Tweet...

      Originally Posted by TweetPilot View Post

      I appreciate Clickbank is the 'vendor' legally, and that they therefore are responsible for the product that they are therefore selling to the customer but you really think that means they should go down the Amazon route?
      I don't have a problem if they want to "go down the Amazon route", but to do that they first have to create a customer oriented Marketplace.

      While legally, the vendor's sales page is just an ad for "Clickbank's product", and all the affiliate links are CB links, and all the "buy" buttons lead to a CB order page... anyone at ClickBank who thought that vendors or affiliates were going to sit still for this attempt to simply absorb the vendor's sales page to simulate a real marketplace needs to be removed from any position of responsibility before they kill ClickBank's business.

      If you think about it... legally, the vendor's sales page really isn't much different than an affiliate's blog post.

      Sure there is a specific "buy" button, but that's just a call to action. No financial transaction is started until AFTER the visitor gets to the CB order page. ClickBank has every right to change that page as much as they like. If their customers aren't recognizing ClickBank as the seller when they receive the credit card statement, it's because ClickBank has done an insufficient job of making it clear right on that page!

      Next thing you know, they'll want to put a ClickBank header on your AdWords ads - roflmao

      Clickbank have screwed up big time. The only reason they're under pressure from the credit card companies is because SOME of the vendors sell utter rubbish which has pushed up refund and chargeback rates.

      It all comes back to the products that are being sold. If they were stricter then perhaps we'd be in a better position today.
      It may be too late, already.

      While they have abandoned their initial attempt to bring all of their product's sales pages under the ClickBank header, I think that whatever drove this decision in the first place is still an issue and they are simply trying to determine how they can modify the plan to be more acceptable.

      They seem to think that the problem was in the execution of that header (i.e. the size, the page leaks, the iframe) and appear to have the blinders on with regard to what may be causing their overall (higher than normal?) refund rate.

      I find myself dreading what their next move might be.

      If others feel the same way, they could already be experiencing a significant movement by the vendors to pull their products. They may be too late to stem the the tide.

      Not only was "Plan A" terrible... they obviously didn't have a "Plan B" ready.

      Are the vendors/affiliates who rely on ClickBank's services going to sit idly by... just waiting to see what comes next?
      Signature

      Sid Hale
      Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10298751].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author James Campbell
    Clickbank should make this clear so everyone gets the real story.

    Ask them/your rep at CB what the deal is going to be for Premium vendors vs new/regular vendors on CB?

    This change isn't disappearing, it is just beginning. Right now, all these posts from CB are just to save face in a public forum.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10298655].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author JFCanada
    I told ClickBank they should print the vendor's name on the credit card statements so the customer remembers what the purchase was for. Here is their reply:

    Hello, Thank you for your reply. PayPal is a Payment processor and ClickBank is an online retailer. You can deposit money, transfer funds and pay from your Paypal account like a financial institution. ClickBank is a an online store, like Amazon.
    Best Regards,
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10298670].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author trevord92
    This article explains quite a bit about chargebacks and how they affect credit card processing.

    It sounds as though a 1% chargeback rate is at the top end of the acceptable range.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10298851].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

      Customers are not interested in CB's brand. They don't wake up one morning thinking..."I'll buy a digital product, where should I shop for it, and which one should I choose? Oh, I know I'll go to a digital marketplace and do some shopping.".
      Sure they do. Then they fire up a browser and type in A-m-a-z and click on the amazon.com dropdown, like they have many times before.

      Originally Posted by silvacourses View Post

      I am not "selling to ClickBank." I advertise and make the sale to the customer, and ClickBank receives a payment for the service they provide. The services they provide are processing the payment, and occasionally finding an affiliate to sell something for us. ClickBank doesn't do the selling, at least not on our site.
      Sorry, Silva, but you're wrong. It may look like that to you, your customers and your affiliates, but someone following the legal paper trail would see two transactions - you selling your product to Clickbank, and Clickbank selling it to the end user.

      They don't make the pitch, but it's their register that rings up the sale.

      Originally Posted by TweetPilot View Post

      In Clickbank's defence (sort of) I think people are getting the wrong end of the fraud thing (I think).

      From what I understand, Clickbank's problem is that customers are seeing CLICKBANK on their statements and are thinking, what the hell is that and are then reporting it as fraud to their bank/paypal or whatever.

      Clickbank want to push their brand a little more before customers buy so that when they then see the Clickbank name on their statement they don't think it's a fraudulent transaction.

      That's what I understand the excuse is at least.

      Personally after doing plenty of sales through Clickbank, I've rarely found this to be an issue. If you offer a decent product without hiding the fact that the bank statement will show Clickbank then your refunds should be low as would your chargebacks.

      This is just Clickbank coming up with whatever BS excuse they can.
      If this truly is the root problem, the solution is simple. And, as often happens, it comes from the adult industry.

      All they need to do is add a line to the checkout success page.

      "This transaction will appear on your statement as [whatever they need to use]."

      It's the digital equivalent to "your package will arrive in a discreet brown wrapper.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10298918].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author professorrosado
        Originally Posted by Pnigro View Post

        And how exactly would you do that?

        The vendors are the ones who host their products and sales pages. This is what made Clickbank successful in the first place. We as vendors have full control over what we show to our clients.

        We can make split tests. If a particular website design is not working well, we change it. We test different headlines, colors, buttons. We drive traffic to our website. We build our subscribers list. We control and decide the methods of selling. It's classic direct response marketing.

        Amazon is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT business model. They are the ones hosting the products. There are no sales pages. People browse different products in order to decide which to buy. Etc etc.

        Clickbank going the Amazon route is the equivalent of Subway going the Johnny Rockets route.

        Completely different animals.
        And so you propose that a business should stay put while it goes extinct just to fit your rationalizations? Business must survive - it has to adapt to changing environmental factors which in this case has everything to do with legal issues which, save a few, no one has even attempted to consider.

        I run an offline brick and mortar business and I know what the CC industry is forcing upon merchants - especially those transacting remotely. It isn't as cut and dry as most of you are porting. The issue of fraud is more technical than most are thinking on this thread. The one holding the liability is CB and not you all with your fancy website and branding fetishes.

        Originally Posted by TweetPilot View Post

        Sorry Professorrosado, but I couldn't disagree with you more!?

        I appreciate Clickbank is the 'vendor' legally, and that they therefore are responsible for the product that they are therefore selling to the customer but you really think that means they should go down the Amazon route? ..............
        No, not because of their legal liability, but because it makes more sense to their long term business goals.

        Originally Posted by TweetPilot View Post

        Clickbank have screwed up big time. The only reason they're under pressure from the credit card companies is because SOME of the vendors sell utter rubbish which has pushed up refund and chargeback rates.
        This is by no means the only reason. As I said previously, the whole remote transaction segment is being hit hard with strict new rules concerning CC processing - period! The evolving CC industry is going to cause a lot more changes to the way business is transacted and it will affect everyone concerned. All I am saying is that IM need to get ready to make shifts in the way you are doing or going to do future business online. One morning you may wake up to a revolution that will cripple your business for some time.

        Originally Posted by Pnigro View Post

        My main product has a refund rate of 1.8% and a chargeback rate of 0.7%.

        Is that such a big problem for credit card companies?

        Why would that be an issue?

        I wonder what the overall Clickbank refund rate and chargeback rate is.

        In the end, aren't they all making millions and just giving the money back to customers who didn't find their purchase satisfying?

        Why is it that all of a sudden Clickbank is forced to change the model that has given them success for so many years?
        Because it isn't just about your chargeback rates - it is the general perception and fear revolving around the credit card fraud issue wholly. We're talking about stolen cards, now even numbers and personal data, identity fraud, etc. Who is responsible for these false claims in the end? Clickbank! Because they are the charger of the card on record - the credit card companies have no liability at all if you read their regulations carefully.

        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        .....Sorry, Silva, but you're wrong. It may look like that to you, your customers and your affiliates, but someone following the legal paper trail would see two transactions - you selling your product to Clickbank, and Clickbank selling it to the end user.

        They don't make the pitch, but it's their register that rings up the sale.....
        Absolutely true John, but I must add that the little blurb stating "who is the one charging the card / whose name will appear on the statement" is just one small part of the mounting regulatory pressures Clickbank and others will have to deal with sooner or later.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10299046].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
          Originally Posted by professorrosado View Post

          And so you propose that a business should stay put while it goes extinct just to fit your rationalizations? Business must survive - it has to adapt to changing environmental factors which in this case has everything to do with legal issues which, save a few, no one has even attempted to consider.
          Yes, it must survive, but it doesn't mean they have to go the Amazon route.

          We have given many suggestions in this thread.

          If they go the Amazon way, Clickbank will go extinct.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10299245].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
    It's apparently obvious that Clickbank simply does not care about affiliates and those that built their business.

    There are many top affiliates that have seen their earnings completely drop this week, and many more will continue to see this in the coming weeks -- even if CB decides to reverse this idiotic idea - the damage is done and will continue to pervade for a long time to come.

    Smart affiliates are already abandoning ship. As a vendor I just can't trust CB anymore.

    At the end of the day you have a choice. And that's what is great about the IM business.

    I think that Warrior Plus and JV Zoo really get affiliates, and have a great, working business model for content creators. They are always updating their platform and have great customer service. I'm not going to tell you who to go with, but if you're smart you would at least discover what they are about.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10299173].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
      There are other reasons why the ClickBank market place isn't a consumer-orientated marketplace:

      1. Many (most?) of the descriptions are written aimed at affiliates.

      2. The descriptions are per vendor - not per product. If a vendor has multiple products, some of their products, even best sellers, might not appear in the marketplace at all. And in some cases, vendors describe several products in the description, but the market place link only leads to one

      3. Some vendors who use affiliates to drive traffic, redirect the landing page when there is no affiliate to their affiliate info page.


      If CB wants to create a consumer-orientated marketplace they need to collect consumer-orientated descriptions for every product (not vendor), not just remove the word "Affiliate" from the page heading. They would also need to do this while maintaining their existing affiliate marketplace in parallel (assuming they don't want to cannabalize their existing business).


      Here are some actual descriptions in the marketplace - if you browse the marketplace, I don't think you will find they are untypical. Is really likely that consumers consumers will browse listings like these, and then choose one to buy?


      6 Minutes To Skinny: Make $22-$160 Per Sale
      6 Minutes To Skinny Is Converting At A Monster Epc Of $1.54 To Cold Media And $1.74 To Affiliate Traffic. That Is Real Data, Not Hype. Http://www.turbulencetraining.com/affiliates/CB/in dex.html

      Fitness For Tennis
      Super High Converting Tennis Fitness & Nutrition Site With Awesome Sales Video Filled With Real Content. Find Out How You Can Cash In Too: Http://www.fitnessfortennis.com/affiliates

      Finding Mr. Right - Women's Dating Product (view mobile)
      Affiliate Center: Http://affiliates.commitmentconnection.com

      Oily Skin Solution - Huge Untapped Market In The Skin & Beauty Niche (view mobile)
      75% Commission! Affiliate Material Available @ Http://www.oilyskinsolution.com/affiliates.html

      The Smart Option Trader (view mobile)
      Your Clients Are Going To Love This Detailed And Complete Course Which Will Show Them How To Analyze Positions And Earn Monthly Income. The Course Has Several Hours Of Video Examples. Everyone Will Make Great Commissions With This Hot Selling Product.

      Bodyweight Exercise Revolution: Equipment-free Is Hot In 2010
      Several Products - Great Reviews And Great Conversion. Bodyweightcoach – Affiliate Center

      Gold Standard Trivia Pub Quiz Questions And Answers (view mobile)
      Thousands Of Top-quality Trivia Quiz Questions & Answers. Great For Pub Quizzes & Charity Events And Ready To Use. Many Formats Available, Great Bonuses, Free Download, 10000 Free Bonus Questions. 50% Commisson For Affiliates, Several Products To Promote


      Multiple Home Repair Products
      Now Offering 8 Different Home Repair Products At Varying Prices, One Hoplink, Up To Eight Commissions! Lets See If We Can Beat The Current Economy =) Visit The Site To See What We Have To Offer.


      Dugi World Of Warcraft Guides (view mobile)
      The #1 Wow Guides And Addon Since 2005. High Recurring Rebill Of $6.99 Will Make You More Money In The Long Run Than Any Other Wow Product Available. We're Setup For Multiple One Click Upsells And Rebills And Active With Email Campaigns.


      Pheromone Advantage: Attract The Opposite Sex With Pheromones (view mobile)
      Multiple Physical Products With Very High Epcs. 40% Commish! Avg. Sale $80+. 1 Click Up-sells. Multiple Products For Men And Women W/different Proven Landing Pages You Must Sign Up Here For Best Links And Copy= Http://dramend.com/affiliates


      The King's Game - Earn Up To $230 Per Sale
      Fresh New Dating Offer For Men. 75% Commission + Multiple Upsells + Great Product = High Epcs. Conversions On All Types Of Men's Traffic. For Tools Visit Http://www.thekingsgame.com/affiliates


      The Music Coach
      Get Started On Your Musical Journey Today With The Music Coach! Lessons On 10 Different Instruments. High Conversions, 50% Commission On All Products, Multiple Price Points And Recurring Billings. Http://www.yourmusiccoach.com/affiliate-tools

      Easy D.i.y Chicken Coop Plans www.chickenkit.com/affiliates.php
      Huge 75% Payout. Super-high Converting Multiple Products & Offers Up To $47. You Get 75% On All Of Them. Chicken Coop Plans, Chicken Care Guides & Much More. Very Cheap PPC & Low Competition! Free Tools Here: Http://www.chickenkit.com/affiliates.php
      Signature
      ClickBank Vendor?
      - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
      - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
      - Killer Graphics for Your Site
      SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10299249].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author nicheblogger75
    Let's face it- Clickbank is a joke. They are on their way out. Jump ship before it sinks!

    And I don't buy that whole credit card fraud BS and waking up one morning with my business crushed over something the CC industry does. Totally ridiculous.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10299253].message }}
  • {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10299256].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author nolan59
      if Clickbank is having such a problem with refunds and fraud, then they should sort situations like what happened to me today:

      2:24pm - CB Sale
      2:33pm - Customer attempts to reset password
      2:40pm - Custom locked out from too many wrong passwords
      2:49pm - Customer emails our support desk
      2:59pm - Support desk replies to customer with a password reset
      3:01pm - CB Ticket, Refund, Open
      3:07pm - CB Ticket, Refund, Closed

      so from the customer purchasing to Clickbank refunding the customer because "Hello Vendor, This customer contacted ClickBank to request a refund because they contacted you for technical support on multiple occasions, but have received no response. Best regards, ClickBank.com Customer Service" took 43 minutes.

      What the heck. Clearly this customer's activation email ended up in their spam folder or something stupid like that.

      Did the customer give us a chance to respond? No.
      Did Clickbank give us a chance to respond? No

      It's just : the customer says your service sucks so we will refund the customer. Our ticket system gives you 6 minutes to respond to tickets submitted, no more, no less. After that we refund and you get a "bad customer service mark against your name as a stinky vendor".

      Needless to say when I send in a support ticket to query the situation, I get a "Our business hours are Monday through Friday, 8:00 am – 5:00 pm Mountain Time (GMT-6). We will respond to you as quickly as we can during those business hours!" canned reply.

      Sort out crazy situations like the one above, get rid of the serial refunders and stop approving subpar products then your bank will like you a little more and you won't have shove iframes down our throat.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10299304].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author TweetPilot
        Originally Posted by nolan59 View Post

        if Clickbank is having such a problem with refunds and fraud, then they should sort situations like what happened to me today:

        2:24pm - CB Sale
        2:33pm - Customer attempts to reset password
        2:40pm - Custom locked out from too many wrong passwords
        2:49pm - Customer emails our support desk
        2:59pm - Support desk replies to customer with a password reset
        3:01pm - CB Ticket, Refund, Open
        3:07pm - CB Ticket, Refund, Closed

        so from the customer purchasing to Clickbank refunding the customer because "Hello Vendor, This customer contacted ClickBank to request a refund because they contacted you for technical support on multiple occasions, but have received no response. Best regards, ClickBank.com Customer Service" took 43 minutes.

        What the heck. Clearly this customer's activation email ended up in their spam folder or something stupid like that.

        Did the customer give us a chance to respond? No.
        Did Clickbank give us a chance to respond? No

        It's just : the customer says your service sucks so we will refund the customer. Our ticket system gives you 6 minutes to respond to tickets submitted, no more, no less. After that we refund and you get a "bad customer service mark against your name as a stinky vendor".

        Needless to say when I send in a support ticket to query the situation, I get a "Our business hours are Monday through Friday, 8:00 am - 5:00 pm Mountain Time (GMT-6). We will respond to you as quickly as we can during those business hours!" canned reply.

        Sort out crazy situations like the one above, get rid of the serial refunders and stop approving subpar products then your bank will like you a little more and you won't have shove iframes down our throat.
        We've all been there mate...

        But don't worry, Clickbank will get a reply to you within 3-5 business days...
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10299380].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Nisip
          Banned
          Originally Posted by TweetPilot View Post

          We've all been there mate...

          But don't worry, Clickbank will get a reply to you within 3-5 business days...
          Interesting or strangely enough, Alexa shows a constant loss and collapse
          of Clickbank in number of users and visitors in the last period of time...

          the fall is free:

          clickbank.com Site Overview
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10300900].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Okane
            It seems to be about time to look for alternatives.

            Presently, I only have one customer (Clickbank) which makes my tax declaration (here in Europe) very simple...

            Therefore, the MAIN feature I need (and Clickbank has it) is that the service must handle all VATs around the world for me. I don't have the resources to do that myself.

            My understanding is that JVzoo & Co. don't do that, right?

            How do other vendors outside the US (and with customers worldwide) handle this?
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10300982].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
              @okane

              For software, I believe that fastspring and avantgate will do that too. I think there are at least a dozen other companies which also act as retailers, handle vat easily, and dont try and hijack vendor's traffic with a banner at the the top of every page. None is technically difficult to switch to.

              Cb ought to bear that any mind.

              No cb vendor or affil wants to switch - we chose the old cb platform because it worked well for us and we liked it. We would like to stay with cb in future. But if cb changes their business model in a way that harms vendors or affiliates, hijacks our traffic, then of course we are going to switch platform.

              As for getting affiliates to follow to a new platform, i'd imagine in most cases vendors already know which (likely a handful) of superaffils are driving their sales, even if the vendor didnt build an email list. And superaffils are in any case bound to check the vendors site if they see cb sales drying up. This really isnt a major obstacle to switching platform.
              Signature
              ClickBank Vendor?
              - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
              - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
              - Killer Graphics for Your Site
              SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10301044].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Michele Miller
                Well if they do try to enforce this, I will definitely be moving. They are not hijacking my traffic for their benefit. Can't believe they had the audacity to even consider suggesting or trying this out. I might leave anyway. They can't be trusted any more.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10301223].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
                  Does anyone know of Clickbank alternatives that support Spanish?
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10301316].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author emilsb
              Originally Posted by Okane View Post

              It seems to be about time to look for alternatives.

              Presently, I only have one customer (Clickbank) which makes my tax declaration (here in Europe) very simple...

              Therefore, the MAIN feature I need (and Clickbank has it) is that the service must handle all VATs around the world for me. I don't have the resources to do that myself.

              My understanding is that JVzoo & Co. don't do that, right?

              How do other vendors outside the US (and with customers worldwide) handle this?
              If you only require payment and VAT handling, you might use a service like Gumroad.

              But this is not a CB competitor as they don't provide an affiliate platform. They do payment processing on your behalf.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10301165].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Michele Miller
              I think you might find 2checkout.com will do what you need. Doesn't have the affiliate side of things in place however. They also have a London, UK head office as well.

              Originally Posted by Okane View Post

              It seems to be about time to look for alternatives.

              Presently, I only have one customer (Clickbank) which makes my tax declaration (here in Europe) very simple...

              Therefore, the MAIN feature I need (and Clickbank has it) is that the service must handle all VATs around the world for me. I don't have the resources to do that myself.

              My understanding is that JVzoo & Co. don't do that, right?

              How do other vendors outside the US (and with customers worldwide) handle this?
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10301244].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author emilsb
                Originally Posted by Michele Miller View Post

                I think you might find 2checkout.com will do what you need. Doesn't have the affiliate side of things in place however. They also have a London, UK head office as well.
                I've used 2checkout in the past and they were reliable, although they had a very long cycle of releasing your funds (like 1.5 months).
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10301289].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author HypMovator
              Originally Posted by Okane View Post

              It seems to be about time to look for alternatives.

              Presently, I only have one customer (Clickbank) which makes my tax declaration (here in Europe) very simple...

              Therefore, the MAIN feature I need (and Clickbank has it) is that the service must handle all VATs around the world for me. I don't have the resources to do that myself.

              My understanding is that JVzoo & Co. don't do that, right?

              How do other vendors outside the US (and with customers worldwide) handle this?
              I am also based in the UK and have always used Clickbank because they handle all the VAT issues associated with the UK and Europe, which until now has made things so much easier for me to administer as a sole trader.

              European VAT laws have changed recently and now all UK/European Vendors need to submit a separate quarterly VAT return to every European Country.

              I would be really grateful if anyone knows of a viable alternative to Clickbank that operate in a similar way to Clickbank by paying all VAT to the various countries without me needing to account for or get involved in the process.

              Otherwise I may be stuck with Clickbank at least in the short term.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10330130].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
                Originally Posted by HypMovator View Post

                I am also based in the UK and have always used Clickbank because they handle all the VAT issues associated with the UK and Europe, which until now has made things so much easier for me to administer as a sole trader.

                European VAT laws have changed recently and now all UK/European Vendors need to submit a separate quarterly VAT return to every European Country.

                I would be really grateful if anyone knows of a viable alternative to Clickbank that operate in a similar way to Clickbank by paying all VAT to the various countries without me needing to account for or get involved in the process.

                Otherwise I may be stuck with Clickbank at least in the short term.

                I believe that FastSpring and Avantgate will do that for software.

                There are others too, including for other types of products.

                I am also informed that the a European minimum threshold for VAT on downloads (exempting businesses selling less than a certain amount to EU) will likely be introduced by 2017.... although that's no consolation for the short term.

                Another option is simply to block all EU sales. If more than 90% of your sales are US/Canada only, which is the case for many English language products, why go through the hassle?
                Signature
                ClickBank Vendor?
                - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
                - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
                - Killer Graphics for Your Site
                SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10330201].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author HypMovator
                  Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

                  I believe that FastSpring and Avantgate will do that for software.

                  There are others too, including for other types of products.

                  I am also informed that the a European minimum threshold for VAT on downloads (exempting businesses selling less than a certain amount to EU) will likely be introduced by 2017.... although that's no consolation for the short term.

                  Another option is simply to block all EU sales. If more than 90% of your sales are US/Canada only, which is the case for many English language products, why go through the hassle?
                  Thank you so much for the quick reply and the advice, I will look into your suggestions and hopefully find a solution before the Clickbank implementation deadline next month.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10330563].message }}
      • ClickBank:

        We have decided to release an official post regarding our collective response to your Always on Shopping Portal changes through the Warrior Forum. Our Warrior Forum account was created today specifically for this purpose.

        Our group's name is Affiliates And Vendors United against ClickBank's Always On Shopping Portal, or AAVU against CBAOSP.

        Our group is comprised of ClickBank vendors from the professional speaking, coaching, training and consulting industries. In sum, we are authors, content creators, information entrepreneurs, experts and thought leaders, and we have been in close communication over the last week since the announcement of your program.

        Suffice to say that we cover a significant swath of the personal and professional development markets that are represented by vendors (and the affiliates who promote us) in the ClickBank marketplace. Together we account for millions of dollars in sales that have been put through ClickBank's order processing in the last year alone, and a figure that is exponentially larger than that over the last decade.

        We are a large contingent of your vendors and affiliates, and our ranks are growing, especially after this post. We will NOT be ignored.

        Together, with the vendors and affiliates participating in this thread (and other such discussions currently happening elsewhere online), you will see that our unified voice is not only sizable and worthy of very serious consideration, but you'll also realize that we have the power to create a disastrous and sustained ripple effect for ClickBank's present reputation - and future viability.

        This is not a threat - it is a statement of fact.

        We would also ask that Warrior Forum members re-post this message across other forums, online communties and discussion spaces. We are standing as one unified group in opposition to this egregious abuse of trust that ClickBank is attempting to force on the vendors and affiliates that are it's very lifeblood.

        We represent every vendor and affiliate who has made ClickBank into the profitable company that it is today, and we WILL NOT allow you to blindly, systematically and callously damage our businesses.

        What follows is a very simplified, point-form version of our group's unified position on - and reaction to - ClickBank's recent Always on Shopping Portal. These points are only being made for the sake of clarity - a reading of this and other forums provides more than enough information about why these changes are so fundamentally misguided and unsound, and why they pose a catastrophic risk to the success of our businesses. A full breakdown of our position and our grievances, which will be in the form of a comprehensive public report, is forthcoming.

        So again, these are only very brief, point form facts surrounding this situation:

        1) If we comply with the demands of the CBAOSP, it will have a significantly negative impact on our respective site's branding, and by extension, on our conversion rates

        When arriving on our sales pages, our customers will see a URL change from www.merchantwebsite.com to shop.clickbank.net. This will immediately erode our credibility and become a sales leak that cannot be remedied or addressed in any capacity whatsoever.

        2) The new URL formatting damages our credibility and looks like a phishing site

        Is ClickBank so daft to modern conversion 'best practices' and so obtuse to a competently built sales conversion process as to believe that our traffic and customers will not be driven away by a ridiculous, spam-like URL such as the one you are attempting to force upon us? This point alone has caused many of us to already decide to leave ClickBank forever, regardless of the outcome of this battle. You have already caused us to question your business sensibilities in a basic, fundamental way.

        3) The banner (in ANY iteration) is distracting, confusing and will ruin our site's branding and overall sales funnel.

        There can be no moderation, reinvention or reiteration of the banner that will not ruin our sales page - both in terms of leaks, distorted branding messages and overall conversion rates.

        This Warrior Forum thread has plenty more to say on all three of these points, so there's no need to elaborate. In fact, there is a laundry list of other very serious grievances that we are not going to enter into at this point, all of which are clearly highly valid and accurate, and which have been deeply explored in this thread.

        Actually, the thrust of our group's message is more aimed at what we intend to do in reaction to the Always On Shopping Portal program, so let's proceed in that direction. Again, for the sake of brevity, we will list our intentions in point form.

        Note that for those who are in support of our group, the following demands speak for all of us:

        1) If CBAOSP is not redressed completely (i.e., abandoned entirely), the AAVU group and all our supporters will take immediate, unified action to migrate away from your company, both as affiliates and as vendors, in every capacity that a general 'mass exodus' might suggest.

        We will disassociate ourselves from you in a way that causes the least damage to our businesses, and which, cumulatively, will cause massive, enduring damage to the current size and future growth of ClickBank's vendor and affiliate base.

        2) The AAVU group will permanently blacklist ClickBank, and will publicly identify it as a company that willfully pursues actions that destroy the business interests of product vendors and affiliates alike.

        We will inform our networks, customers, partners and other business contacts that ClickBank has been blacklisted by the Internet marketing community at large, as well as officially by the AAVU group, being comprised of professional speakers, trainers, coaches, consultants, authors and various other types of information entrepreneurs, content creators, experts and thought leaders and any and everyone else who supports us and stands with our protest of ClickBank's Always On Shopping Portal program.

        We would also like to quote a few other points that have been raised on here, and were rebuffed by your official reply:

        1) ClickBank is being dishonest with vendors and affiliates

        TRUE. One need look no further than the obfuscating, misleading language used about the iframe 'testing' having come to an end, and also regarding previous emails about the AOSP program having been sent by ClickBank. No such emails were sent - any insistence by ClickBank to the contrary is a bald-faced lie and merely enrages us all the more.

        2) There is no relationship between ClickBank's former CEO abruptly leaving and the new COO (yes, the one who previously worked for Visa) launching the AOSP program.

        FALSE: We know that this is another lie. An insider source has told us that Tricia Phillips (https://www.linkedin.com/pub/tricia-phillips/5/b88/160) is the architect of this plan. As someone who knew how to 'put the squeeze' on merchants in the credit card world, Ms. Phillips is accustomed to treating those who sustain her company's business model very harshly in order to maximize profits and streamline processes. That same ruthless approach to leveraging corporate power and undercutting the little guy will not be tolerated when it comes to how ClickBank attempts to treat its vendors and affiliates.

        So Ms. Phillips, hear this: vendors and affiliates built ClickBank up, and as a unified group, vendors and affiliates will tear ClickBank down if need be, and you will be the one to blame. And it will happen because of your arrogant, narrow-sighted and utterly disrespectful approach to properly supporting the business people who helped ClickBank become what it is today. You should be ashamed of yourself.


        Ms. Phillips thought she would get away with the same approaches she learned at Visa by strong-arming vendors and affiliates who have trusted ClickBank for years. In one fell swoop, she has destroyed that business relationship and the hard-won goodwill and credibility that ClickBank worked for years in good faith to establish in this industry. Though Ms. Phillips has worked at Amazon and Visa, she has clearly demonstrated that she's woefully lacking in knowledge when it comes to the Internet marketing industry and this form of e-commerce.

        Ms. Phillips has been exposed as someone who does not understand the intrinsic correlations at play in this business space, and she is doing untold damage to ClickBank's reputation and long-term viability.

        3) ClickBank is trying to model themselves after Amazon

        TRUE. This is another instance of ClickBank failing to acknowledge that the traffic that comes to ClickBank is NOT ClickBank's traffic, unlike that of Amazon. Despite any legalese or technicalities suggesting otherwise, at the end of the day that traffic (and the customers, and the orders, etc.) belong to us - your vendors and affiliates - in the truest and fairest sense. But you have decided to be willfully ignorant of that fact by acting like our customers and our traffic belong to you, yet we can assure you that your greed and venality on this point will NOT be tolerated by us.

        If necessary, we will take our traffic and our customers to other providers who do understand the underlying truth of this fact.

        Any subtle or overt attempt to re-brand yourselves in an Amazon.com model will not succeed precisely because of your reliance on us, the vendors and affiliates who sustain and further your interests. We simply will not allow it to happen. Any assumption on your part to the contrary is an astonishingly arrogant insult to our intelligence.

        4) The real reason for the AOSP is security concerns

        FALSE. We are speaking privately with a ClickBank employee who is communicating directly with one of our group members throughout this crisis. We have learned that MasterCard approached ClickBank demanding an explanation for why so many fraud complaints are being levied against ClickBank.

        Rather than crack down on all the terrible, low-quality products that ClickBank offers, they opted to try to scalp their vendors and affiliates by appropriating their traffic in a ploy to increase long-term profits, rather than resolve the root of the problem - the junk products themselves (which ClickBank profits from).

        In other words, ClickBank has made the decision to continue profiting from junk products and suffer frequent charge-backs ahead of treating it's vendors and affiliates as the valued partners that they actually are.

        It's clear that this was a horrible and poorly considered decision, but you have not begun to see what the true scope of the long-term ramifications will be for your reputation and bottom line if you proceed with your program.

        5) This is the only option that ClickBank has in order to solve this problem

        FALSE. One need only to review the many, many solutions offered in this thread to see multiple other viable option that would work in place of the Always on Shopping Portal.

        There are many more 'true and false' points that could be raised here, but we would strongly encourage all of you - our AAVU partners - to fully educate yourselves on each of these points by thoroughly reading this thread and others in order to more fully grasp the true scale of ClickBank's outrageous offenses against us in trying to institute program.

        In Conclusion:

        ClickBank, you have lost our trust in a fundamental way.

        Anything short of a complete abandonment of your Always On Shopping Portal program will result in the actions described in this message. We will not accept a modification to the program, and we will not accept new 'iterations'.

        We are collectively prepared to begin a unified migration away from your platform, and a multi-industry blacklisting of your company.

        The reach of our influence as vendors and affiliates does not stop with what actions we can take against you for the necessities of our own businesses, but rather we will actively work to inform our contacts, partners and customers across our various industries that ClickBank has been blacklisted as a pariah retailer that will actively do damage to the businesses of those it works with, and does not have the best interests of customers - let alone vendors and affiliates - at heart.

        -Affiliates And Vendors United against ClickBank's Always On Shopping Portal group

        September 28, 2015
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10304066].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
          Originally Posted by AAVU Against CBAOSP View Post

          ClickBank:

          We have decided to release an official post regarding our collective response to your Always on Shopping Portal changes through the Warrior Forum...
          I think people need a way to get in touch with you to participate in this. Other than a PM for members of the forum, I think a social media presence and perhaps a website may be in order.

          My thoughts... a lot of what you wrote could not have been said better. But I don't think a group like this, although important, is what will cause the most damage to ClickBank when it's all said and done.

          Simple business decisions made by the vendors and affiliates will.

          Vendors don't want a business partner which they use for payment processing and affiliate management trying to take over their websites, mafia-style. They don't want confusion when they introduce themselves to other potential business partners about exactly who their websites belong to. They don't want their traffic or their affiliates' traffic being siphoned away for ClickBank's own personal gain at their and their affiliates' expense.

          Meanwhile, affiliates don't want to send traffic through a platform that operates in an untrustworthy and unreliable manner. After all, they have to place a lot of trust in ClickBank to credit them properly with their sales. They also don't want to send traffic to leaky pages where the traffic will then be whisked away to a different website.

          ClickBank does not have the leverage to force this change on the community of vendors and affiliates who use their services. There are too many other options for payment processing and affiliate tracking, and the traffic that goes through ClickBank is not generated by ClickBank but rather by the vendors and affiliates themselves.

          And, needess to say, the idea that they would want to do this to their customers in the first place is disturbing.

          This whole fiasco has made ClickBank look like a shady operator, and maybe that is the reality after all. The company's credibility as a trustworthy and reliable platform has certainly been damaged. Its reputation will never recover if the leadership there does not walk away from this plot and begin to operate in a sane manner.

          Even if they do, they're already losing some of their business as a result of this miscalculation. I can tell you that we are already setting up alternative processing and affiliate management and will be making the switch regardless of what happens next. I'm sure we are not the only ones.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10304415].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
        I'd prefer not to think of it being us vs cb, or us vs particular person in cb. We need cb to continue to follow a strategy that works for them and us. This is what has made them a success to date.

        The bottom line is of course it is our products, our traffic, our websites that consumers know. And if cb changes their model, we can quickly and easily, and absolutely will, move all of these to other platforms.


        As an aside, i cant believe the portal actually increased sales for cb when it was active.

        We've already discussed the effect on conversion rates (down) and bounce rates (massively up) when consumers visited a cb bannered page, most likely thinking they had landed on the wrong website if they were searching for a weight loss guide or a dating book....

        But another thing is i doubt the marketplace link generated much extra sales for cb either:

        What would have to happen is this:

        1. User clicks on a link to a site offering woodworking plans or whatever.

        2. User sees the cb banner and doesnt mind it looks like some kind of financial site or whatever (most likely user hasnt heard of clickbank), so doesnt press back. User also ignores the wrong url in the address bar, doesnt think its a phishing attempt, and doesnt press back. User also decides to forget about woodworking so doesnt scroll down.

        3. User thinks, i wonder what that market place link is, and clicks it.

        4. The user browses/searches the cb marketplace. He ignores the fact that most of the products dont have consumer-orientated descriptions (most cb descriptions are written for affiliates and describe how much affils can make by promoting), and that there are no images.

        5. Eventually user finds a product with a consumer orientated description and clicks it
        Lets say a link about improving your love life or whatever.

        6. User is now taken to a site about love life.

        7. He ignores the cb banner, again.

        8. He scrolls down and buys it.

        This seems such a remotely unlikely sequence of events that i cant believe it happened in more than a tiny percentage of cases.

        The whole process converts targeted traffic (which converts ) into untargeted traffic (which doesnt), and has multiple filters and obstacles to making a sale of any kind.

        The extra sales cb might get from the hijacked traffic thru the marketplace is always going to be massively outweighed by the loss of conversion from the original product site. In short, this is a bad idea from cb's point of view, even if we went along with it.
        Signature
        ClickBank Vendor?
        - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
        - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
        - Killer Graphics for Your Site
        SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10304700].message }}
  • I'm pretty sure clickbank doesn't care what I think but I'm against it. I just hate when things are forced on people who built your company, hopefully it will backfire on them!
    Signature

    Join Next Live Mastermind Zoominar 100% Real World Secrets to Get Up And Running. Are you Stuck? Don’t miss it www.MonthlyMastermind.org
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10300259].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author writeaway
    That would definitely go a long way in professionalizing CB vendors.

    Better late than never, I guess.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10300293].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author kennyd3
    If they want cheap promo, they are going to lose a lot of good publishers. The other
    affiliate sites are going to benefits from such a dumb idea. Foolish!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10300675].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      LEGAL DISCLAIMER: What I've written below is my opinion, and my opinion only.

      Having had some time to think about this, I am increasingly disturbed by what I see happening at a company I always thought was trustworthy and reliable.

      It's fairly obvious that ClickBank's new management has simply decided that they can get away with forcing an advertisement for ClickBank (and their "marketplace") onto the top of every vendor's website.

      It's impossible for me to see it any other way. Their attempted justifications for this are just not convincing at all.

      - I don't believe that customers being confused when they see "ClickBank" on their credit card statements is a major issue. Customers pay on a ClickBank order form. They receive order confirmation emails from ClickBank. The vendor's "Thank You" page tells them the credit card statement will say "ClickBank." Some small percentage of people might still be confused after all of that, but not enough to justify hijacking every vendor's website with this conveniently self-serving ClickBank banner. If that were the real issue, there are far less intrusive ways to address it.

      - Actual online fraud will not be combated in any way by putting an ad for ClickBank at the top of a vendor's website. So if that is the supposed issue, then no. I'm not buying it.

      This is a naked attempt by ClickBank to build a new business model by violating their entire customer base of vendors and affiliates. The nonsense about these changes having nothing to do with the new CEO and COO is patently absurd and insulting to every one of their customers' intelligence. I guess they really think we're idiots.

      We are witnessing the work of executives who are too clever by half. They want to be a destination for consumers, and the first step of their plan is to promote their brand and "marketplace" at the expense of the vendors and affiliates who make up their customer base. The attempted justifications we're hearing are calculated lies.

      It's sad and, frankly, immoral.

      Let me be perfectly clear to anyone from ClickBank who is reading this. Our website is our website. Our product is our product. Our customers are our customers, your legalese notwithstanding. You get revenue from us because you provide a useful service. If you want to enter into a new business model with a retail marketplace for consumers, you are free to do so at your own expense, but not at ours.

      We will not put a ClickBank logo or any other ClickBank branding on our website. Not now, not ever. So stop with the lies and walk away from this asinine idea.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10300726].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Michele Miller
        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        LEGAL DISCLAIMER: What I've written below is my opinion, and my opinion only.

        Having had some time to think about this, I am increasingly disturbed by what I see happening at a company I always thought was trustworthy and reliable.

        It's fairly obvious that ClickBank's new management has simply decided that they can get away with forcing an advertisement for ClickBank (and their "marketplace") onto the top of every vendor's website.

        It's impossible for me to see it any other way. Their attempted justifications for this are just not convincing at all.

        - I don't believe that customers being confused when they see "ClickBank" on their credit card statements is a major issue. Customers pay on a ClickBank order form. They receive order confirmation emails from ClickBank. The vendor's "Thank You" page tells them the credit card statement will say "ClickBank." Some small percentage of people might still be confused after all of that, but not enough to justify hijacking every vendor's website with this conveniently self-serving ClickBank banner. If that were the real issue, there are far less intrusive ways to address it.

        - Actual online fraud will not be combated in any way by putting an ad for ClickBank at the top of a vendor's website. So if that is the supposed issue, then no. I'm not buying it.

        This is a naked attempt by ClickBank to build a new business model by violating their entire customer base of vendors and affiliates. The nonsense about these changes having nothing to do with the new CEO and COO is patently absurd and insulting to every one of their customers' intelligence. I guess they really think we're idiots.

        We are witnessing the work of executives who are too clever by half. They want to be a destination for consumers, and the first step of their plan is to promote their brand and "marketplace" at the expense of the vendors and affiliates who make up their customer base. The attempted justifications we're hearing are calculated lies.

        It's sad and, frankly, immoral.

        Let me be perfectly clear to anyone from ClickBank who is reading this. Our website is our website. Our product is our product. Our customers are our customers, your legalese notwithstanding. You get revenue from us because you provide a useful service. If you want to enter into a new business model with a retail marketplace for consumers, you are free to do so at your own expense, but not at ours.

        We will not put a ClickBank logo or any other ClickBank branding on our website. Not now, not ever. So stop with the lies and walk away from this asinine idea.
        Exactly!!!
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10300878].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author greatness008
        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        LEGAL DISCLAIMER: What I've written below is my opinion, and my opinion only.

        Having had some time to think about this, I am increasingly disturbed by what I see happening at a company I always thought was trustworthy and reliable.

        It's fairly obvious that ClickBank's new management has simply decided that they can get away with forcing an advertisement for ClickBank (and their "marketplace") onto the top of every vendor's website.

        It's impossible for me to see it any other way. Their attempted justifications for this are just not convincing at all.

        - I don't believe that customers being confused when they see "ClickBank" on their credit card statements is a major issue. Customers pay on a ClickBank order form. They receive order confirmation emails from ClickBank. The vendor's "Thank You" page tells them the credit card statement will say "ClickBank." Some small percentage of people might still be confused after all of that, but not enough to justify hijacking every vendor's website with this conveniently self-serving ClickBank banner. If that were the real issue, there are far less intrusive ways to address it.

        - Actual online fraud will not be combated in any way by putting an ad for ClickBank at the top of a vendor's website. So if that is the supposed issue, then no. I'm not buying it.

        This is a naked attempt by ClickBank to build a new business model by violating their entire customer base of vendors and affiliates. The nonsense about these changes having nothing to do with the new CEO and COO is patently absurd and insulting to every one of their customers' intelligence. I guess they really think we're idiots.

        We are witnessing the work of executives who are too clever by half. They want to be a destination for consumers, and the first step of their plan is to promote their brand and "marketplace" at the expense of the vendors and affiliates who make up their customer base. The attempted justifications we're hearing are calculated lies.

        It's sad and, frankly, immoral.

        Let me be perfectly clear to anyone from ClickBank who is reading this. Our website is our website. Our product is our product. Our customers are our customers, your legalese notwithstanding. You get revenue from us because you provide a useful service. If you want to enter into a new business model with a retail marketplace for consumers, you are free to do so at your own expense, but not at ours.

        We will not put a ClickBank logo or any other ClickBank branding on our website. Not now, not ever. So stop with the lies and walk away from this asinine idea.
        This is the truth right here CB. Listen up or prepare for the mass exodus! We are not gonna be held victim to this needless self-promotion at the expense of our thoughtfully crafted websites. We will not do it!
        Signature
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10301113].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author spartonx
    I don;t think it is bad , but definitely weird, anyways i am not much reliant on clickbank eitherways i like to work more with shareAsale or CJ.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10301318].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author nolan59
      @Emil 2checkout pay every week. You set a threshold and if the funds reach the threshold they pay you. You must have had a high threshold set when you used them.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10301737].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author extrememan
    Clever way for Clickbank to be branding themselves and to look even more professional. Smart! I haven't yet created my own product and hosted with Clickbank. But, this is good to know for the future..
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10303054].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author ddev
    For the past 2 or 3 years they've been doing everything to become the next IM dinosaur.

    And they're having a big success with that.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10303342].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author arif456
    In my thoughts, It will lower the conversion rates for sure. And will cause problems with branding vendor's own products. Better to find an another marketplace.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10304190].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
    AAVU, thanks for the post. I do believe that we all need to get organized. Not organized to make CB reverse their decision because they have already shown their true colors. We all have to get organized and move to a new platform from which we can all do business from.

    Again, damage to their reputation will never be cleaned, it's time to move on and exit.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10304657].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author emilsb
    I think I understand now where they are going. It might be different than most vendors expect and attempting to pick their mindset. I'm writing a longer article about this.

    Unsure if I can post a link here to the article on my site, as it seems to be against WF rules - can anyone let me know? thanks in advance
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10304989].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      Originally Posted by emilsb View Post

      I think I understand now where they are going. It might be different than most vendors expect
      We really don't have to guess where they're going. They've already made it very clear by trying to take over the top area of every website that uses their services and siphon away the traffic that vendors and affiliates work to create.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10305004].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author emilsb
        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        We really don't have to guess where they're going. They've already made it very clear by trying to take over the top area of every website that uses their services and siphon away the traffic that vendors and affiliates work to create.
        It's more complicated than this. What you said is just one way to look at it. But whether this is NOT in the favor of vendors, there's no doubt about. I believe though that my article would shed more light, and give vendors more insight and the power to anticipate CB next moves. However I wouldn't simply post such an article directly in forum replies.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10305118].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
          Originally Posted by emilsb View Post

          It's more complicated than this. What you said is just one way to look at it. But whether this is NOT in the favor of vendors, there's no doubt about. I believe though that my article would shed more light, and give vendors more insight and the power to anticipate CB next moves. However I wouldn't simply post such an article directly in forum replies.
          If you've got something useful to say, why don't you simply post it in this thread?
          Signature
          ClickBank Vendor?
          - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
          - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
          - Killer Graphics for Your Site
          SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10305181].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author agmccall
          Originally Posted by emilsb;10305118I

          I believe though that my article would shed more light, and give vendors more insight and the power to anticipate CB next moves. However I wouldn't simply post such an article directly in forum replies.
          Just post it here like everyone else is doing, That way we can keep all this good info in one place

          al
          Signature

          "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10305186].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author michaelswengel
    Honestly, I think it's ugly. They should AT LEAST offer several different colors / styles to allow vendors to choose what fits best on their sites.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10305145].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author petkanov
    What if they want to lose your business? I know it sounds crazy, but think about it!!

    What if they decided to create products rhemselves to offer on the front end, and split that with affiliates, and keep the profits on the back end for themselves.

    They could easily create lets say 20 top products in each category, they certainly have the money to do it. They can also copy the best converting funnels, because they have the data. They can even offer 100% to affiliates on the front end. Think about it! I hope I am wrong, but everything is possible, and they have enough money to do it.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10305363].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
    Have you seen the thank you page after an order is completed?

    They are pushing "related" products and not paying referring affilaite or vendor whos product was just purchased anything for that either.
    Signature

    "Human thoughts have the tendency to transform themselves into their physical equivalent." Earl Nightingale

    Super Affiliates Hang Out Here

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10305380].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
      Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

      Have you seen the thank you page after an order is completed?

      They are pushing "related" products and not paying referring affilaite or vendor whos product was just purchased anything for that either.
      I think they do pay vendors for that. I once got a commission of a product I wasn't promoting and lately realized it came from those related products.

      Clickbank earns the same regardless of whether affiliates and vendors are paid or not, so why would they NOT credit them for the sale?

      Anyway, I don't want to leave Clickbank, so I hope they desist from trying to become Amazon.

      If they want to do that, they should try an alternative marketplace, instead of messing up with our websites.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10305409].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author agmccall
    I was just on clickbank and when you get to the home page they have "featured Products" All these products have the banner. From the looks they are trying to be the amazon of digital products. But, unlike amazon, the people that are vendors for clickbank are marketers where the people that sell on amazon are retailers. People that sell on amazon are in for the sale and know that right from the beginning. They know that amazon is the seller and all customers are amazons'

    Clickbank, on the other hand, has marketers as their vendors and these marketers depend on upsells, as well as future marketing via email when the sell their product. Even though clickbank has always been the "retailer" they never imposed themselves like this before, and it is this midstream changeup that has everyone up at arms.

    If, and they should, start paying commissions to affiliates when someone gets to clickbank, just like amazon does then it would be great for the affiliate, but still not so good for the vendor. On the other hand, it could force vendors to be more competitive and create better products.

    One thing they could do is have a section set up like jvzoo, where you provide your own processor and just use clickbank as the affiliate network. that way clickbank would lower its fees, you still control your traffic and sales page, and still have access to all the affiliates. And, if you need their processing services you can opt to have them host it with their banner/navigation and affiliates will get paid no matter what someone buys when they get to clickbank.

    This is one hell of a double edged sword

    al
    Signature

    "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10305451].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
    I just received a letter from them and it's kinda hard to understand what they are trying to say.

    Plus the post above says that the banner is being implemented, yet the letter says that this is just a "test" and that it has been concluded for the time being.

    Anyone have new information on this?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10306026].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      Hi Chris,

      The "test" was concluded 5 days ago (24 Sep) with regard to hoplinks after running less than 24 hours.

      Originally Posted by Chris Chicas View Post

      I just received a letter from them and it's kinda hard to understand what they are trying to say.

      Plus the post above says that the banner is being implemented, yet the letter says that this is just a "test" and that it has been concluded for the time being.

      Anyone have new information on this?
      Essentially, they had just redirected the hoplinks to a script on their site that wrote out a page with the header from their domain and wrapped the vendor's sales page inside an iframe on that page. The URL for that page was a clickbank URL.

      However, in getting this all set to go... they also had Vendors put javascript on their own pages to render that same header for direct traffic (i.e. non-affiliate traffic), and they still have instructions in their Knowledgebase at: https://support.clickbank.com/entrie...entation-Guide for Vendors to do just that.

      To the best of my knowledge... there has been no further communication with Vendors to indicate that it is OK for them to remove the header from the pages on their own web sites, and presumably new products being added to their marketplace are being added with the javascript shown on that page.
      Signature

      Sid Hale
      Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10306137].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author nicheblogger75
    I don't understand why this thread keeps going on and on about the same thing.

    Clickbank made a change, and from what I'm reading , most vendors and affiliates hate it.

    You can post forum threads, Facebook posts, Tweets, write letters, etc.

    None of it will make any difference to Clickbank.

    The only thing that will make Clickbank listen is a massive drop in profits.

    What I'm saying is that if you don't like what they have done and you are a vendor, move your products to another platform.

    If you are an affiliate and you don't like what they have done, stop promoting Clickbank products.

    You can bet that if enough people ACT instead of just talk about acting, they will be forced to change their asinine new policy or they will end up out of business.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10306461].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      Originally Posted by nicheblogger75 View Post

      I don't understand why this thread keeps going on and on about the same thing.

      Clickbank made a change, and from what I'm reading , most vendors and affiliates hate it.

      You can post forum threads, Facebook posts, Tweets, write letters, etc.

      None of it will make any difference to Clickbank.

      The only thing that will make Clickbank listen is a massive drop in profits.

      What I'm saying is that if you don't like what they have done and you are a vendor, move your products to another platform.

      If you are an affiliate and you don't like what they have done, stop promoting Clickbank products.

      You can bet that if enough people ACT instead of just talk about acting, they will be forced to change their asinine new policy or they will end up out of business.
      People are definitely acting. Acting and talking are not mutually exclusive.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10306745].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
      Originally Posted by nicheblogger75 View Post

      I don't understand why this thread keeps going on and on about the same thing.

      Clickbank made a change, and from what I'm reading , most vendors and affiliates hate it.

      You can post forum threads, Facebook posts, Tweets, write letters, etc.

      None of it will make any difference to Clickbank.

      The only thing that will make Clickbank listen is a massive drop in profits.

      What I'm saying is that if you don't like what they have done and you are a vendor, move your products to another platform.

      If you are an affiliate and you don't like what they have done, stop promoting Clickbank products.

      You can bet that if enough people ACT instead of just talk about acting, they will be forced to change their asinine new policy or they will end up out of business.
      Kind of agree with you, but nothing wrong with a bit of venting either. Especially if u think cb might pay some attention to the concerns on this thread.

      There are 2 reasons why the thread is still live:

      1. Cb hasnt told us what's happening going forward. Their emails are unclear, and not everyone's got the same emails.

      If they tell us that they've canned the idea, we can forget this experiment and focus on making money for us and them.

      If they tell us that they're going to do it again, we can focus on switching platform.

      Right now though, we"re in limbo.

      2. For those considering switching platform, there are many issues to discuss, including what platform to switch to.
      Signature
      ClickBank Vendor?
      - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
      - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
      - Killer Graphics for Your Site
      SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10306748].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
        Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

        Kind of agree with you, but nothing wrong with a bit of venting either. Especially if u think cb might pay some attention to the concerns on this thread.

        There are 2 reasons why the thread is still live:

        1. Cb hasnt told us what's happening going forward. Their emails are unclear, and not everyone's got the same emails.

        If they tell us that they've canned the idea, we can forget this experiment and focus on making money for us and them.

        If they tell us that they're going to do it again, we can focus on switching platform.

        Right now though, we"re in limbo.

        2. For those considering switching platform, there are many issues to discuss, including what platform to switch to.
        Definitely focus on switching platforms. Even if they back away from this scheme, they have revealed themselves to be fundamentally immoral in the way they operate their business. It's not a good idea to remain dependent upon a company like that. Who knows what they will try to get away with in the future.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10306795].message }}
        • I really, really don't want to leave Clickbank and I hope they reconsider this header idea. They've been good to me and many others for years so I'm not going to jump on the Clickbank hate bandwagon.

          Even though they haven't handled this situation the best, I'm not buying it that they've ruined their reputation. That will only happen if they actually follow through with this change.

          As someone else said, I hope we can work together and come up with a solution that works for both Clickbank and it's Vendors/Affiliates.
          Signature

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10307288].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
            Originally Posted by GoodnightSweetRatRace View Post

            I really, really don't want to leave Clickbank and I hope they reconsider this header idea. They've been good to me and many others for years so I'm not going to jump on the Clickbank hate bandwagon.

            Even though they haven't handled this situation the best, I'm not buying it that they've ruined their reputation. That will only happen if they actually follow through with this change.

            As someone else said, I hope we can work together and come up with a solution that works for both Clickbank and it's Vendors/Affiliates.
            In my view, there is not going to be any such solution, because we are not being dealt with honestly. ClickBank's leadership is making a play to become a retail destination for digital products, and they are essentially trying to assimilate all of their customers' websites into their own. That is what they want, end of story.

            This supposed issue of customers being confused when they see ClickBank on their credit card statements (I highly doubt that is really a major problem) could likely be addressed in much less intrusive ways than what they are attempting to do here. A reputable company would certainly try all other options before doing something like this to their entire customer base.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10307304].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
            Originally Posted by GoodnightSweetRatRace View Post

            Even though they haven't handled this situation the best, I'm not buying it that they've ruined their reputation. That will only happen if they actually follow through with this change.
            Absolutely. Everybody makes mistakes. I've had a good relationship with CB for many years (15 years!), and would prefer to maintain that until I'm in my dotage (hopefully more than another 15 years!) - so I can't put this behind me, provided CB don't persist with this idea.
            Signature
            ClickBank Vendor?
            - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
            - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
            - Killer Graphics for Your Site
            SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10307314].message }}
            • Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

              Absolutely. Everybody makes mistakes. I've had a good relationship with CB for many years (15 years!), and would prefer to maintain that until I'm in my dotage (hopefully more than another 15 years!) - so I can't put this behind me, provided CB don't persist with this idea.
              Wow 15 years, that's awesome. I'm coming up to my 4th year with them and they've never missed a payment and always responded to any queries swiftly. Hence why I'd much rather stay with Clickbank for many, many more years.

              I'm still remaining optimistic that CB will scrap this idea. They must know that all the quality Vendors and Affiliates who care about their customers will move to a different platform if this header is implemented.
              Signature

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10307347].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author emilsb
                Originally Posted by GoodnightSweetRatRace View Post

                I'm still remaining optimistic that CB will scrap this idea.
                They won't scrap the idea. Here's why. (DISCLAIMER = this is only my opinion, and a projection based on some facts and many available clues).

                - New management doesn't usually (or ever) revert decisions, in any given firm. It would make them look weak and would irreversibly damage their position. They would either succeed or bust by having such major changes implemented. The new changes are already loaded and fired. There's no looking back.

                - CB was an affiliate platform. It is not anymore. Look at their website: Global Internet Retailer. That's a totally different business. This means, you can't expect to make money using the same old model, as the old model is being replaced.

                - The affiliate platform is now a subsection buried deep in the site. That's its new position and function - a subsection, a component, not the main business. It is still a critical part for CB but it doesn't work the same anymore.

                - There is often NO going back when a company makes such a huge change. They weighted everything and decided to go ahead. It's already done. Even if the banner ever disappears, CB is still moving ahead and at some point you might see even bigger changes, with even bigger impact on some individual vendor businesses.

                - Vendors are angry not only due to changes, but due to lack of transparency. I think CB would better be much more transparent, this will only help.

                - But even if they are not transparent, their site and messages already tell the whole story. You just have to figure it out, but it stays in plain sight. Whoever thinks the same old CB model is still in place, lives in the past and is currently in a denial process.

                - CB is funneling everyone to their new portal. The new source of money IS within their portal. Not on your site. Some people complain that they are looking to steal traffic through the banner. I strongly doubt that. They have massive traffic through the affiliates, and the traffic comes from CB anyway (and if it doesn't, then you should funnel it somewhere else where there is no CB banner). I believe they are actually doing the opposite: They are trying to migrate all vendors INTO their portal. That's where everything will roll from now on. Whether this is good or bad for vendors, that's a different story. It will definitely require changing business model though.

                - This means that vendor sites might no longer be on CB from some point on. We don't see this yet but everything might indicate this as possible.

                - The new model would definitely give CB more money, as they will have more control, user retaining on their site, and consequently much more options to sell and create money in many different ways. Another reason for not going back. At least that's how they might expect it to be.

                - They appear to be following an Amazon-like system where affiliates are still a huge part of the business, but just an underlying component. This means that vendors would still be able to sell on CB, and even make nice profits - but the new model will be completely different. Similar to Amazon, most likely.

                - I believe they do have strong reasons to do this. Nobody takes such a huge gamble without a serious reason. It might be either a sharp decline in profits or their investors are unhappy. Or their business projections are showing some critical problem next. Hence the new management, and the big changes. This is business -- and they are looking to survive, and thrive. Whether this comes against individual good, it is a different story. Business is business. I am upset from my vendor position; but as an entrepreneur I kinda understand the kind of change they are looking at.

                - The sharp decline in traffic (Alexa) might indicate a severe decline in profitability. I don't know where that comes from. But the same kind of sharp decline is visible for JVZoo (again in Alexa). There might be something crumbling in this industry, that we can't figure out or grasp yet. OR, maybe it's just Google updates like Panda and such, that for example killed article directories in the past. Such a massive traffic decline definitely forces an internet company to reinvent themselves. They might be (or already appear to be) within such a reinventing process.

                - I believe the current stage is 100% transitional and there is no going back, but going forward. Also the banner and stuff is only transitional. It will turn into something else at some point. My own bet is that they'll follow other marketplaces and forbid you from using your own external site at some point, or have special rules for that. Instead, you will need to have your own shop within the marketplace.

                - Unfortunately the Internet world is always reinveinting itself. I think each 3-4 year whole models are being removed. CB change is big - retailers will simply have to adapt to it. Or move elsewhere; everyone will follow what is best for their own situation. Just look at the ad-based industry - it is in collapse due to ad blockers, and every player is trying to figure out what to do next.

                - If you are an author, you will still be able to sell your final products on CB, but you'll have to rely on their sales system, not on your own funnel and systems. This might be far less efficient, but on the other hand you might get bigger exposure, just as on Amazon. But we don't yet know how much. This is still difficult to grasp as it's not fully in place yet.

                - Unfortunately, vendors aren't that important to a marketplace. I'm not talking about CB here, but in general. It is the harsh truth.

                If you sell on Amazon, Ebay, or use Paypal, then chances are, you already know what I'm talking about. Any dispute will almost never be solved in the favor of the seller. Unfortunately vendors are replaceable, or at least that's what marketplaces position seem to be. There's always a supply of new vendors looking to make money when others get upset and go. It's not how I believe it should be, or how we'd like it, but how these things function today.

                - What seems to be most important for a marketplace is the source of money (buyers = visitors), they will do everything to have them happy first. Then on the second level is source of traffic (affiliates mostly), quite important too. Sellers come only after that. Trust me, if you leave, someone else will be happy to take your spot and try to sell on the platform.

                - I think the best approach now, for any vendor, is to skip the normal acceptance process (Anger, Denial, Depression, Acceptance) and simply look into the future. Relying on hopes by taking grouped action might be futile. I'm not say you shouldn't do it if you feel like it's worth. But look for the best, while preparing for the worst. Plan for a new, alternate model of business. Rely on current model only as a transition phase. ( Change is inherent in any Internet business, therefore I personally might list my products on CB in the future, just as if they'll be on Amazon.)

                Again all the above is just my personal opinion, not exact science. But if you look at it and try to understand things from a general perspective, it begins to make some kind of sense, although it will be difficult to accept for vendors, and some will face critical problem next.

                What's most important, is what you decide to do now.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10307715].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
                  I'm really annoyed by these "They won't change their minds" posts.

                  They already changed their mind regarding the banner.

                  Personally I really hope they scrap this idea.

                  Of course, if they don't, I will look for alternatives, but at the moment I remain hopeful.

                  They are reading this thread. They know they ****ed up.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10307774].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author professorrosado
              One problem I had with this is that I never considered positioning a "corporate" or "brand" site on Clickbank (geez, I must have missed that WSO).

              For me, CB was about "landing / sales pages" separate from one's "main" website. And with others positioning their "main" business with CB, I can see why everyone is flustered with this issue.

              But for the reasons Sid Hale and others have stated:

              Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

              I've been self-employed for over 3 decades now, and have NEVER made a business decision based on "it just may work". Especially when the gamble depended on the execution of someone else's business strategy!...
              The practice of aligning one's core business with CB was flawed from the beginning - it should never had been done. The attraction in that case was the promise of affiliates - granted that no indication of what they're trying to do now was then tendered or imagined.

              The thread proves that many DID "gamble on someone else's strategy" which may have "worked" but now is at risk.

              The bottom line is that although marketplaces like CB are valued and needed by smaller business efforts, one should not lay dormant with any platform but implement strategies to become independent and self-sufficient at minimum.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10307350].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
      Okane, i'm not aware of any reason why you cant leave existing subscribers paying thru cb, and new ones paying thru another system. Nobody is forcing you to continue to sell new subscriptions thru cb.
      Signature
      ClickBank Vendor?
      - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
      - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
      - Killer Graphics for Your Site
      SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10308785].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
        I just thought I should mention that there is a ClickBank facebook page (thanks MIles - I said group previously) where this is also being discussed (currently the 2nd most recent post and comments in reply to it).

        If you want to find, in facebook search for "ClickBank", and since there are several groups with ClickBank in the name, the one you want is ClickBank, Product/Service, and it has about 68,000 members.
        Signature
        ClickBank Vendor?
        - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
        - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
        - Killer Graphics for Your Site
        SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10309510].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author MilesBaker
          Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

          I just thought I should mention that there is a ClickBank facebook group where this is also being discussed (currently the 2nd most recent post and comments in reply to it).

          If you want to find, in facebook search for "ClickBank", and since there are several groups with ClickBank in the name, the one you want is ClickBank, Product/Service, and it has about 68,000 members.
          I'm pretty sure you mean Facebook Page, not group, right?
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10309631].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Michele Miller
    I've been with Clickbank for 13 years. Not going to stay any longer though.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10307354].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Got a new email from CB yesterday. Here's the gist:

      > They're dumping the idea of putting things in an i-frame.

      > They still insist on linking customers seeing "Clickbank" on CC statements as a fraud problem rather than a simple communication problem, and still insist on linking it to the rollout of chipped CC.

      > They still insist on CB branding on all "customer facing" web pages, including sales pages. They also insist that this branding is being done for the benefit of vendors and affiliates.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10307393].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        > They're dumping the idea of putting things in an i-frame.

        > They still insist on linking customers seeing "Clickbank" on CC statements as a fraud problem rather than a simple communication problem, and still insist on linking it to the rollout of chipped CC.
        Yes, the email I got (entitled: "Important: You Spoke, and We Listened") said both those things.

        Good to the first.

        Boo to the second - if a vendor hasn't had a charge-back for at least a couple of years, how will the clickbank branding reduce it further? And how is chipping a card supposed to be related to whether the customer recognizes ClickBank? And why don 't ClickBank simply put in big red letters on the order-form and Thank you page the following "This charge will show on your credit card statement as ClickBank".

        For me, this explanation is simply not believable.

        I want to be on ClickBank's side, and contine to work with them - but being treated like an idiot isn't winning me over, in fact the reverse.

        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        > They still insist on CB branding on all "customer facing" web pages, including sales pages. They also insist that this branding is being done for the benefit of vendors and affiliates.
        The most recent email I got from them (entitled: "Important: You Spoke, and We Listened") says, in part:

        "The ClickBank branded header must be part of your marketing funnel and at the top of any page with a ClickBank payment link."

        That seems somewhat different.... it seems to suggest they only want the header on the page with the order button/link rather than every page in the vendor's marketing funnel.

        (That said it's still a very unconvincing email that will make vendors/affiliates unhappy)
        Signature
        ClickBank Vendor?
        - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
        - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
        - Killer Graphics for Your Site
        SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10307450].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          > They still insist on CB branding on all "customer facing" web pages, including sales pages. They also insist that this branding is being done for the benefit of vendors and affiliates.
          They can insist on whatever they want - but if sellers and affiliates aren't willing to do it what will CB do? Will sellers and affiliates move to other platforms - or just gripe a bit and then go along with the new banners? Time will tell.

          If a non-IM customer goes to the CB site - all they see is affiliate/seller information. It looks like a clearing house or warehouse for info - not impressive.

          Here's what I wonder....how long before the header becomes clickable? How long before customers can leave your sales page on your website and go straight to Clickbank and browse there....how long before customers can buy directly through CB...and who gets commission then?

          Clickbank inserts itself into sales by setting minimum # of sales before commissions are paid - by setting minimum number of payment methods before commissions are paid....by withholding small but increasing amounts monthly from accounts that are inactive (and that haven't been paid because of the other CB restrictions). Do you think they will give you commission if your customer ends up on THEIR site?
          Signature
          Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
          ***
          One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
          what it is instead of what you think it should be.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10307533].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
            It's interesting. Sunil and I seem to have gotten similar emails, but not identical.

            Another trial balloon, perhaps?

            I wonder if the fact that I haven't listed a product for sale on CB in over a decade, nor have I promoted any in over five years had anything to do with the content of the emails?
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10307545].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author TheWebGuy
    Ya they need to come out and let everyone know that this is scrapped officially. Two of my products were tested on with this iframe/url takeover nonsense. It was terrible and I saw how it affected my performance in only one day.

    I was going to release two new products on Clickbank in the coming months but I will absolutely not put them on their network until I know this plan is not moving forward.

    I do media buying and I will in no way drive traffic to a clickbank URL and a sales page with a huge Clickbank header. This is terrible for conversions ...I could go on an on why (but people on this thread have done a good job explaining why).

    They need to make it official b/c it's not just that vendors will move their products if this comes back ...new products will never be put on Clickbank in the first place. They need to realize this. I've talked to other product owners and they are saying the same thing.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10307567].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      Originally Posted by professorrosado

      And so you propose that a business should stay put while it goes extinct just to fit your rationalizations? Business must survive - it has to adapt to changing environmental factors which in this case has everything to do with legal issues which, save a few, no one has even attempted to consider.

      I run an offline brick and mortar business and I know what the CC industry is forcing upon merchants - especially those transacting remotely. It isn't as cut and dry as most of you are porting. The issue of fraud is more technical than most are thinking on this thread. The one holding the liability is CB and not you all with your fancy website and branding fetishes.
      I don't believe for one moment that this is about ClickBank's survival or that the credit card companies are forcing them to do this. You can see my other posts in this thread for the reasons why. I think it would be nearly impossible to make a convincing case for that at this point.

      I also think saying people who don't want their websites to be hijacked by a third party have "branding fetishes" is a just a tad hyperbolic.

      No, not because of their legal liability, but because it makes more sense to their long term business goals.
      I agree - with the long term business goal being the development of a consumer-oriented retail marketplace. And they have every right to pursue that goal. Unfortunately, they have chosen to do so in a stunningly unethical way that violates every customer they currently have.

      This is by no means the only reason. As I said previously, the whole remote transaction segment is being hit hard with strict new rules concerning CC processing - period!

      ...

      Because it isn't just about your chargeback rates - it is the general perception and fear revolving around the credit card fraud issue wholly. We're talking about stolen cards, now even numbers and personal data, identity fraud, etc. Who is responsible for these false claims in the end? Clickbank!
      I have addressed both of the justifications they've provided along these lines (credit card fraud moving online, and customers being confused when they see "ClickBank" on their statements) elsewhere in this thread. Neither of those justifications stands up to any scrutiny.

      One problem I had with this is that I never considered positioning a "corporate" or "brand" site on Clickbank (geez, I must have missed that WSO).
      Your mocking tone is really misplaced here. I'll give you a simple example.

      If your business is the sale a Wordpress plugin, your website is going to be about your plugin. The plugin is going to be front and center, and there is going to be a buy button. You might opt to use ClickBank for their payment processing and affiliate management. Your website where you sell your plugin is probably going to be your company's main website, provided that you have a registered company, and it is going to be the home of your brand.

      The same concept also applies to many other types of products one might be in the business of selling, whether they be membership sites or training courses. Nothing about this particularly warrants mockery.

      For me, CB was about "landing / sales pages" separate from one's "main" website.
      CB has been used in the way I described above by many businesses, and until now, there was no reason for that not to be the case. They worked fine as a payment processor and affiliate network.

      And with others positioning their "main" business with CB, I can see why everyone is flustered with this issue.
      Well... yes, when a business partner you use for payment processing and affiliate management tries to get all mafia on you and take over your website, you get a little flustered.

      The practice of aligning one's core business with CB was flawed from the beginning - it should never had been done.
      This goes back to what I said above.

      The attraction in that case was the promise of affiliates - granted that no indication of what they're trying to do now was then tendered or imagined.
      That last part you mentioned is really important to note. Nobody in their right mind would ever have expected them to pull this. You couldn't have predicted that ClickBank's leadership would even think they had the leverage to force something like this on their customers (they don't.) Much less that they would be so unethical as to try.

      The thread proves that many DID "gamble on someone else's strategy" which may have "worked" but now is at risk.
      Do you "gamble on someone else's strategy" when you use Paypal or any other service provider?

      The bottom line is that although marketplaces like CB are valued and needed by smaller business efforts, one should not lay dormant with any platform but implement strategies to become independent and self-sufficient at minimum.
      I agree with the gist of what you're saying, but I think ClickBank has overplayed their hand here precisely because vendors and affiliates are not chained to them. There are other companies that offer payment processing and affiliate management. The executives running ClickBank do not have the power they are attempting to grossly abuse.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10307648].message }}
  • Hello again,

    Firstly, thank you for the support that has been expressed for the AAVU against CBAOSP Group here at the Warrior Forum.

    To Jon Patrick, we appreciate your suggestions, and to that point, we have just released a formal petition. This petition was just posted and has not yet been circulated to our group's members, so Warrior Forum members will (fittingly) be the first of our community members to have the opportunity to sign our petition.

    Please add your signature here: Petition Affiliates and Vendors United against ClickBank's Always On Shopping Portal and spread the petition on social networks and to your entire contact base.

    Jon - beyond the petition, our group is also in the process of developing a full report and a website. We are already receiving a huge wave of global support.

    Universally, vendors and affiliates are disgusted by this transparent power grab by ClickBank to hijack our sites, traffic and customers, and it simply will not be tolerated by us as a unified collective.

    I'd like to address another point that has been raised in this thread, which is that nothing will happen in terms of a policy reversal unless we directly damage ClickBank's profit margins.

    That's exactly why our group was formed.

    We represent a concrete, direct threat to ClickBank's profitability and future viability from vendors, affiliates and yes - even regular customers who are now starting to show support for this backlash.

    Just know that this crisis is entering a new stage now, one where the polished, public relations treated message that ClickBank initially tried to deceive us with has been replaced by general outrage and widespread awareness for the truth of what they are really trying to accomplish here - a wholesale takeover attempt of business assets that do not belong to them.

    They know we all see this for exactly what it is now - and that scares them. Even employees are disgusted by what management is trying to do, and this has been expressed to us by multiple insider sources.

    One need only look at the reversal of language that's being released recently to see that this is a fight they know they can't win.

    And our threat is not a hollow one.

    We are prepared to abandon ClickBank and do everything in our power to inform our networks - again as a unified whole - that ClickBank has been blacklisted across multiple industries and is now regarded as a pariah retailer that willfully jeopardizes the business interests of its partners.

    This will happen if our demands are not met.

    If they continue to push this program through, we will hit ClickBank where it hurts most, their reputation and their bottom line.

    Our continued appreciation to the Warrior Forum for their support, and please make sure you sign the petition and get it sent out to your networks and on social media.

    -AAVU Against CBAOSP Group
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10307710].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
      Originally Posted by AAVU Against CBAOSP View Post

      Please add your signature here: Petition Affiliates and Vendors United against ClickBank's Always On Shopping Portal and spread the petition on social networks and to your entire contact base.
      Done.

      Great idea.

      Everyone should sign this petition.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10307792].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      I hope you meet with some measure of success with this. I really do, but...


      Originally Posted by AAVU Against CBAOSP View Post

      Firstly, thank you for the support that has been expressed for the AAVU against CBAOSP Group here at the Warrior Forum.

      To Jon Patrick, we appreciate your suggestions, and to that point, we have just released a formal petition.

      A petition? Seriously?

      These are not politicians. They are not competing in the polls and if they wanted the approval of their affiliates/merchants they would have asked beforehand, rather than simply announcing their intentions.

      Their significantly re-designed website is live, and that redesign was completed/tested, well before their announcement.

      Clickbank has a new business plan that they have likely spent months and large sums of money to develop. Do you really think they are going to simply chuck all that because 4 of their affiliates/vendors don't think it is in their best interest?

      Again, if they had wanted your/our input... they would have asked.

      The real question for you to resolve is whether this move will be in your best interest, and how being listed in a customer oriented marketplace will impact your business. And then you need to take action (I think you should have already done this - not simply ask for them to reconsider their stance.


      A marketplace might work well for some, but a marketplace is NOT a direct response selling model. There is no provision for upsells (or downsells), and much reduced potential for repeat sales. Try standing out from the crowd when you're just one of many products (from just as many vendors) listed on the same page of the marketplace.


      Universally, vendors and affiliates are disgusted by this transparent power grab by ClickBank to hijack our sites, traffic and customers, and it simply will not be tolerated by us as a unified collective.
      You haven't convinced me, and Clickbank probably cares very little. They are committed to a plan, and will not significantly modify that plan until the numbers have proven them right or wrong. If you're not going to tolerate it... then don't tolerate it, but the fact that you submitted a petition sounds to me like you are still tolerating Clickbank.
      Signature

      Sid Hale
      Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10307905].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
        Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

        Do you really think they are going to simply chuck all that because 4 of their affiliates/vendors don't think it is in their best interest?
        Of course, there are many vendors and affiliates who are dismayed by what ClickBank is try to pull right now. And assuming they continue forward along these lines, that number will grow dramatically as other vendors and affiliates realize the impact of this unethical behavior on their businesses, and how badly misplaced their trust in ClickBank was. Only a fractional number of the people who are upset about this will ever see or sign such a petition.

        That actually concerns me a little, as ClickBank's leadership could possibly see the petition and, in their continuing arrogance, interpret it to mean that not many of their customers are upset.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10308462].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author IncomeWitness
    My best guess is that Clickbank is losing a lot of money because of sleazy information marketers who promised their customers the world but never delivered. These changes are intended to help remake their brand.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10307922].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author ED1190
      Originally Posted by IncomeWitness View Post

      My best guess is that Clickbank is losing a lot of money because of sleazy information marketers who promised their customers the world but never delivered. These changes are intended to help remake their brand.
      And who's fault is that?

      More often than not, most people that buy these products don't put in the work to succeed. They expect to snap their fingers, and magic will happen. Doesn't work like that.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10307974].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author IncomeWitness
        Originally Posted by ED1190 View Post

        And who's fault is that?

        More often than not, most people that buy these products don't put in the work to succeed. They expect to snap their fingers, and magic will happen. Doesn't work like that.
        It's the fault of the information marketers for making it sound too easy.They're like YouTube stars telling average people that they can make a fortune simply by uploading a few videos.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10308153].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
          Originally Posted by IncomeWitness View Post

          It's the fault of the information marketers for making it sound too easy.They're like YouTube stars telling average people that they can make a fortune simply by uploading a few videos.
          So it's wrong when other people make things sound too easy but it's okay when you do? There are tons of titles in your ebook collection promising easy, instant, riches. Why the disconnect between what you say and what you do?

          Mark
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10308259].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author IncomeWitness
            Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

            So it's wrong when other people make things sound too easy but it's okay when you do? There are tons of titles in your ebook collection promising easy, instant, riches. Why the disconnect between what you say and what you do?

            Mark
            Mark, I paid a couple of dollars for those ebooks which is all they're worth.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10310368].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
              I think that was at least one small part of Mark's point.

              Originally Posted by IncomeWitness View Post

              Mark, I paid a couple of dollars for those ebooks which is all they're worth.
              The crap you were promoting (I see you've now removed your sig for that post) was piled just as deep as the crap you were complaining about.
              Signature

              Sid Hale
              Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10310517].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author IncomeWitness
                Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

                I think that was at least one small part of Mark's point.



                The crap you were promoting (I see you've now removed your sig for that post) was piled just as deep as the crap you were complaining about.
                Back in 2005 I was making about $100 some days reselling ebooks with Master Resell rights on Ebay. It's one of the most legitimate online money making opportunities ever created and anybody can do it (including absolute beginners). Unfortunately, too many people abandoned this opportunity to pursue other ventures because the "gurus" told them that there were better ideas. Now the market for these types of products is virtually gone. You can barely give them away.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10310602].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    I've seen this same story played over and over again online. A young company
    that has few rules in order to attract as many customers as possible. Then when
    those same customers make them a household name, they change the rules in
    order to dump the "little guys" who made them great. But at the point they
    don't really need the "little guy" anymore because the other big spenders
    can replace 100 of the small spenders.

    -Ray Edwards
    Signature
    The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10308209].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Dyk Estrada
    I can say that this new rule will be quite detrimental for affiliate marketers because it allows the buyer to research the original product and just buy from the main seller. It is also hard to do this if you are promoting products inside your content. This means all pages will now look like salespages now.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10308509].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
      As already stated, i strongly believe it is both in our and cb's interests not to implement the banner (and yes i absolutely will switch platform if cb proceed with this).

      I believe, if implemented, this change will be a disaster for cb. The best vendors and affils wont stand for it. The ones who have expressed themselves in this thread or a petition is the tip of the iceberg.

      Plus i am already aware of another payment/retail platform marketing themselves as a solution to this nightmare, and others preparing to help vendors (with services/tools) to migrate away from cb. These guys will target and quickly vacuum away cb vendors (whose websites and identities are all public knowledge) if cb proceeds with the banner in any way, shape, or form.


      ...but i'm not going to sign the petition, simply because i'm not happy with the wording or setting this up as a confrontation.
      Signature
      ClickBank Vendor?
      - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
      - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
      - Killer Graphics for Your Site
      SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10308685].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Okane
        Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

        Plus i am already aware of another payment/retail platform marketing themselves as a solution to this nightmare, and others preparing to help vendors (with services/tools) to migrate away from cb.
        I'd be interested to know which platform this is and who these "others" are.

        My main problem with a migration would be that I presently have 1k customers with active subscription payments in the Clickbank system. I have no idea how to move them to another payment processor without a big hassle (i.e. actions required from each single customer).
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10308743].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Oliver13
    So, me as an affiliate, this will impact me? If yes, any good alternatives? for (non-IM products).

    EDIT: i don't see any headers...
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10309552].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
      Originally Posted by Oliver13 View Post

      So, me as an affiliate, this will impact me? If yes, any good alternatives? for (non-IM products).

      EDIT: i don't see any headers...
      As an affiliate it absolutely affects you:

      1. You only get paid for sales made through CB of the product you refer. Every vendor will now contain a massive leak at the top of the page, which you earn nothing from.

      2. The header will increase the bounce-rate (because people think they've landed on the wrong site and press Back), and decrease the conversion rate (percentage of clicks into sales) because of bounces & backs.

      If you are doing any sort of paid promotion, e.g. paying for ads, FB ads, email lists, then a lower conversion may make this unprofitable (or less profitable for you).

      For traffic you send yourself (e.g. links on your website) a higher bounce and lower conversion means you earn less per visitor.


      3. Some vendors either have or are considering leaving CB. So you will no longer get paid to promote them. You only get paid for sales made through ClickBank.. Note; a clickbank market place listing is not necessarily indicative that a vendor is still selling through ClickBank.
      Signature
      ClickBank Vendor?
      - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
      - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
      - Killer Graphics for Your Site
      SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10310343].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Brent Stangel
    I think the best approach now, for any vendor, is to skip the normal acceptance process (Anger, Denial, Depression, Acceptance) and simply look into the future. Relying on hopes by taking grouped action might be futile. I'm not say you shouldn't do it if you feel like it's worth. But look for the best, while preparing for the worst. Plan for a new, alternate model of business.
    This is the most intelligent thing in this entire laborious thread. Some of us did this a while ago.

    Please add your signature here: Petition Affiliates and Vendors United against ClickBank's Always On Shopping Portal and spread the petition on social networks and to your entire contact base.
    This is just good humor.

    When I signed up to CB years ago, I don't recall seeing the part of the TOS that said I had a vote on CB policies.

    How many sites have been built by people who were then left hanging when they got big enough they weren't needed anymore?
    Signature
    Get Off The Warrior Forum Now & Don't Come Back If You Want To Succeed!
    All The Real Marketers Are Gone. There's Nothing Left But Weak, Sniveling Wanna-Bees!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10310663].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
      Originally Posted by Brent Stangel View Post

      When I signed up to CB years ago, I don't recall seeing the part of the TOS that said I had a vote on CB policies.

      How many sites have been built by people who were then left hanging when they got big enough they weren't needed anymore?
      I find these kind of comments unhelpful - moreover, they are also based on an incorrect premise.

      Everybody knows:

      1. Vendors/affiliates can't force ClickBank to go in any particular direction,

      2. But vendors/affiliates may be able to influence ClickBank - in fact they have already influenced ClickBank - as evidenced by the removal of the iframe and ClickBank's email entitled specifically stating that they listened to our feedback.

      3. Ultimately every vendor/affiliate knows that if ClickBank goes in a direction they don't like, they have the choice of either sucking it up, or moving to a different platform. Many have taken preparatory steps to move to a different platform (including CB loyalists like me), but continue to hope that they won't have to activate these steps. There is no pressing need for vendors/affiliates to activate these steps right now, because the shopping portal isn't currently active.

      4. The fact is that the comments on this and other forums, and on FB, by vendors/affiliates are nearly universally negative about this change, and very strongly so. But ClickBank needs these vendors & affiliates, they aren't "big enough they weren't needed anymore" - almost all of ClickBank's traffic & sales comes via vendors and/or affiliates. So if the vendors & affiliates move elsewhere, it's ClickBank that will lose out. ClickBank have a very good business reason to listen to what vendors and affiliates are saying.
      Signature
      ClickBank Vendor?
      - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
      - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
      - Killer Graphics for Your Site
      SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10310978].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      Originally Posted by Brent Stangel View Post

      this entire laborious thread.
      Nobody's forcing you to read it.

      When I signed up to CB years ago, I don't recall seeing the part of the TOS that said I had a vote on CB policies.
      A business's customers always have a vote.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10311988].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author leilani
    Clickbank must have a good reason for doing this.

    For whatever their reason, we all have a choice. Work with CB or not.

    Simple.

    Leilani
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10311008].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Nisip
    Banned
    what large/real competitors/options are that will replace CB ?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10311479].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    guys…. CB has done a TON of stuff over the years to improve things… they just listed all the stuff above and shit, there's a lot more stuff they didn't even mention.

    Personally speaking, I love using them…. but i'm worried with these new changes.

    That said, I know they're not intentionally looking to destroy their business. No one in their right mind over there would want to do that, but at the same token they really don't have much of a choice (from what I've been hearing through the grapevine).

    One thing… the header in no way will reduce chargebacks…. thats just silly to think so.

    I mean the customers get emails by CB for their orders with all the details on it, so its mind boggling to me there's issues. Maybe update the descriptors for customers when they see the stuff on their bills.

    Also, getting rid of the scammy offers that are starting to show higher chargebacks… before they become an issue. Look we all know who the offending vendors are… and from 1-2 of these guys, everyone on CB is not suffering… thats just because it seems like people looked the other way while the $$$ was coming in and now that shit hit the fan, we're in panic mode to fix things.

    Personally, i'm waiting to see how things go. CB has been great to me, I love all the people there, they're all super cool and very helpful… so i'm giving them the benefit of doubt.

    The big problem everyone is having is with this 'always on header'… because for the most part its confusing to our website visitors, it detracts from the sales process, it looks like a phishing scam with the url change... and ultimately it probably will lower everyones income (which is the big issue)

    as Aaron Rogers said: "…RELAX..."
    Signature

    “Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.”
    ― Dalai Lama XIV

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10311866].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      That said, I know they're not intentionally looking to destroy their business. No one in their right mind over there would want to do that, but at the same token they really don't have much of a choice (from what I've been hearing through the grapevine).
      They absolutely have a choice. This is something they want to do. That's the only logical way to view it.

      The justifications they are providing have to do with problems which could be addressed in numerous other, more sane ways before doing something over the top like this. If those problems were the real issue, they would try those other options before doing something so heinously abusive to their customers.

      Instead, they jump straight to an attempt to take over all of their customers' websites?

      Let me also be clear that they don't think they are destroying their business. They think they are transitioning into being a "global internet retailer" and this is the extremely unethical way in which they are going about it.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10312048].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author bluejeans
        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        Instead, they jump straight to an attempt to take over all of their customers' websites?
        Yes I agree, I am still digesting the comments in this thread and getting up to speed on the rationale behind these changes but providing the processing behind the scenes is a very different business than trying to co-opt the branding on every single site that's utilized their services in the past.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10312054].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author davemiz
        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        They absolutely have a choice. This is something they want to do. That's the only logical way to view it.

        The justifications they are providing have to do with problems which could be addressed in numerous other, more sane ways before doing something over the top like this. If those problems were the real issue, they would try those other options before doing something so heinously abusive to their customers.

        Instead, they jump straight to an attempt to take over all of their customers' websites?

        Let me also be clear that they don't think they are destroying their business. They think they are transitioning into being a "global internet retailer" and this is the extremely unethical way in which they are going about it.

        John, I understand you may not be privy to the information I get…. so it makes sense that you think this… because you're left to assume and are uninformed.

        Everything you're saying is so far off base, I won't even comment because it would take too long.

        what you think is "logical" and what the truth really is, are two different things dude.

        Just know this, none of the vendors are pleased with this, me included… but rather than going mental now, I'm waiting to see how this all plays out before I decide what to do.


        @ nicheblogger75 - hate to break the news to you… (and I love EBR and zimmerman) but CB has 1 vendor that DWARFS the entire JVzoo sales per year… just from 1 vendor… so what you're saying is absurd and uninformed.

        that said, I agree with the refund issues at CB… too damn easy for customers to refund… I've told this to them repeatedly…. hoping they do SOMETHING.
        Signature

        “Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.”
        ― Dalai Lama XIV

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10314612].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author trevord92
          Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

          John, I understand you may not be privy to the information I get…. so it makes sense that you think this… because you're left to assume and are uninformed.

          Everything you're saying is so far off base, I won't even comment because it would take too long.
          It doesn't help that Clickbank seem determined to leave most of us uninformed

          The handful of messages I've had - sometimes referring to a previous message that didn't exist in my inbox or spam folder - and the lack of information when logging into my Clickbank account doesn't exactly stop me assuming things.

          I know Clickbank is not your company but if lots of small vendors and affiliates leave the platform it doesn't matter, the damage is done.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10314718].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
          Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

          John, I understand you may not be privy to the information I get….
          The information you get from whom? ClickBank? Other vendors repeating what someone from ClickBank tells them?

          The tooth fairy?

          Seriously, though...

          We have processed hundreds of thousands of dollars in sales through ClickBank. While there are bigger vendors, I think it's safe to say we're in the top 5%. I would love to know what secret information we're supposedly not getting access to at that level, and how it suddenly causes what they're saying to make sense in spite of all logic.

          I have been doing business online for a long time, and I have considered the facts of this situation thoroughly. The conclusion I have reached is that what we're being told by ClickBank is patently absurd. There is no context I can possibly think of that could make their claims believable, or justify them taking over all of their customers' websites as they are attempting to do.

          so it makes sense that you think this… because you're left to assume and are uninformed.

          Everything you're saying is so far off base, I won't even comment because it would take too long.
          If you have something to say, I'm all ears. A post stating that you aren't going to comment isn't productive.

          what you think is "logical" and what the truth really is, are two different things dude.
          Logic and the truth rarely differ. I've based my views on what ClickBank themselves are saying and doing. If you have other information, please feel free to share it.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10314989].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author nolan59
            @Clickbank - you are clearly following this thread as you have felt compelled to comment / reply to a user recently. These comments however had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

            Why are you not addressing the concerns voiced in this thread?

            Alternately, why have you not opened any channel of communication with your vendors to discuss this matter?

            Why have you not updated us on anything pertaining to this matter? Not even on your Facebook page?

            Why are we left to hearsay from "this insider" and "that insider"?

            It's time to stand up, take responsibility for your actions and communicate with those that supply your lifeblood......
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10315034].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author vendor
              We have been with Clickbank since 2006 and following this thread closely.
              Currently we are not waiting to see how it turns out and are already negotiating
              with other platforms.
              I hope they DO NOT go through with this change forcing our hand to abandon the clickbank marketplace.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10315159].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Derek S
            Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

            We have processed hundreds of thousands of dollars in sales through ClickBank. While there are bigger vendors, I think it's safe to say we're in the top 5%. I would love to know what secret information we're supposedly not getting access to at that level, and how it suddenly causes what they're saying to make sense in spite of all logic.
            Hey John, Glad to hear you're in the top 5%
            of us clickbank Vendors... I myself fall in the
            top 1% category.

            This is the first time I've even responded to
            anything about the clickbank changes publicly

            why?

            Because i'm "platinum" I have a dedicated rep
            at clickbank, like i'm sure you should as well at
            the level you say you're at.

            Every answer you want to know can be answered
            by your dedicated rep.


            ==================================

            For everyone here not in this category,
            here's whats up:

            ==================================

            The banner hits us all (small vendors AND platinums)
            on November 23rd... Nothing is going to change that

            The reason the banner's a guarantee is because this
            is what the creditcard companies agreed to in order
            for clickbank to keep their relationship with MasterCard
            and Visa.

            In the future things may change and hopefully for the
            better. Not confirmed 100% but eventually ClickBank
            will likely be rebranded with a more customer friendly
            business name and image.

            The banner will hopefully be further split tested and I
            pray become less obtrusive over time... But for the time
            being, this is what we are stuck with.

            From current talks with my rep, the Marketplace link
            is mandatory for new and low volume vendors while
            completely optional for established Platinum vendors.

            Also now i'm not sure if this is just for Platinum vendors
            or not...

            After working closely with ClickBank on some sort of
            solution, we worked out a great way to get that banner
            off of our direct sales page.

            All we need to do is create a review order page
            in-between the sales page and ClickBanks order form

            You might have seen this done before already and
            some vendors have seen a serious spike in sales
            from having a two step checkout process.

            The banner only applies to pages that directly link to
            clickbank's order form. So the review order page is
            actually a bridge page between your sales letter and
            their checkout.

            This also means that any vendors using a multi page
            sales letter with something like a article "next page"
            format, doesn't have to display the banner until the
            visitor actually hits the page with a buy button linking
            to clickbanks order form.

            This shows ClickBank is as flexible as they can be
            without pissing off the Credit Card companies and
            working on a solution vendors can work with as well.

            So not exactly the end of the world for marketers
            who understand that working online means always
            having to change, adapt and make things work in our
            favor eventually.

            ==================================

            As for my business with ClickBank?

            ==================================

            I'm going to switch to Stipe and a company like
            Zaxaa.com for my own personal sales. Allowing
            Affiliates to join this option for higher instant
            commissions and perks like prizes and giveaways

            I'll always keep ClickBank as an option to affiliates
            who wish to stick with them... Yet also open my
            offers up to additional networks like JVZOO and
            ClickSure.

            Hope this has cleared some rumors and hear say
            up thats been spreading around this thread.

            Any LEGIT questions you guys have let me know
            and I'll see if I can answer them for you

            if not...

            Ask my ClickBank rep and give you her response
            here.
            Signature

            --- Work Smart... Not Hard ---

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10315432].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author nolan59
              Originally Posted by Derek S View Post

              Hope this has cleared some rumors and hear say
              up thats been spreading around this thread.
              Thank you Derek, I appreciate your effort to inform, but as you are not an official Clickbank representative, what you tell us is just more hearsay.

              I want to hear the information that affects my business from the "person" that is affecting it - Clickbank themselves and I want to know it well in advance - not in a "here you go implement this immediately or else" email.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10315534].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author nicheblogger75
              Originally Posted by Derek S View Post

              Hey John, Glad to hear you're in the top 5%
              of us clickbank Vendors... I myself fall in the
              top 1% category.

              This is the first time I've even responded to
              anything about the clickbank changes publicly

              why?

              Because i'm "platinum" I have a dedicated rep
              at clickbank, like i'm sure you should as well at
              the level you say you're at.

              Every answer you want to know can be answered
              by your dedicated rep.


              ==================================

              For everyone here not in this category,
              here's whats up:

              ==================================

              The banner hits us all (small vendors AND platinums)
              on November 23rd... Nothing is going to change that

              The reason the banner's a guarantee is because this
              is what the creditcard companies agreed to in order
              for clickbank to keep their relationship with MasterCard
              and Visa.

              In the future things may change and hopefully for the
              better. Not confirmed 100% but eventually ClickBank
              will likely be rebranded with a more customer friendly
              business name and image.

              The banner will hopefully be further split tested and I
              pray become less obtrusive over time... But for the time
              being, this is what we are stuck with.

              From current talks with my rep, the Marketplace link
              is mandatory for new and low volume vendors while
              completely optional for established Platinum vendors.

              Also now i'm not sure if this is just for Platinum vendors
              or not...

              After working closely with ClickBank on some sort of
              solution, we worked out a great way to get that banner
              off of our direct sales page.

              All we need to do is create a review order page
              in-between the sales page and ClickBanks order form

              You might have seen this done before already and
              some vendors have seen a serious spike in sales
              from having a two step checkout process.

              The banner only applies to pages that directly link to
              clickbank's order form. So the review order page is
              actually a bridge page between your sales letter and
              their checkout.

              This also means that any vendors using a multi page
              sales letter with something like a article "next page"
              format, doesn't have to display the banner until the
              visitor actually hits the page with a buy button linking
              to clickbanks order form.

              This shows ClickBank is as flexible as they can be
              without pissing off the Credit Card companies and
              working on a solution vendors can work with as well.

              So not exactly the end of the world for marketers
              who understand that working online means always
              having to change, adapt and make things work in our
              favor eventually.

              ==================================

              As for my business with ClickBank?

              ==================================

              I'm going to switch to Stipe and a company like
              Zaxaa.com for my own personal sales. Allowing
              Affiliates to join this option for higher instant
              commissions and perks like prizes and giveaways

              I'll always keep ClickBank as an option to affiliates
              who wish to stick with them... Yet also open my
              offers up to additional networks like JVZOO and
              ClickSure.

              Hope this has cleared some rumors and hear say
              up thats been spreading around this thread.

              Any LEGIT questions you guys have let me know
              and I'll see if I can answer them for you

              if not...

              Ask my ClickBank rep and give you her response
              here.
              That's all well and good. It doesn't change the fact that that banner is obtrusive and nobody wants it or likes it.

              Given the recent "inconsistencies" Clickbank has been putting out, I wouldn't take anything anybody at that company says very seriously. I don't care if it's a Platinum rep, the CEO of the company or the guy who empties the trash cans at night.

              It still makes absolutely no sense to me what this header or banner or whatever the hell it is has to do with the credit card companies. I wish someone would better explain that to me, because I've read through this entire thread and nobody seems to have any kind of sensible explanation for that.

              Somebody posted that "CB has 1 vendor that DWARFS the entire JVzoo sales per year." I'm sorry but I'm not exactly sure how anyone could make that statement unless they had some insider source at both CB and JVZoo. I mean, how would anyone know that unless they were a financial officer at CB or JVZoo?

              If everyone is indeed "stuck" with this solution until CB comes up with something better, they better come up with something better pretty darn fast because I doubt they will have too much time before the ship goes down. I've spoken to probably dozens of affiliates and some vendors via Facebook groups I belong too and just about all of them are going to ditch.

              If that's any indication of the bigger picture I think CB has a big problem on their hands.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10315786].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Lucian Lada
                The solution is simple: get rid of scammy products and sales pages and CC companies won't have a problem. If CB they had this policy from the get-go, this wouldn't have happened at all.

                It's baffling to me how CB comes here, and, with not shame at all, whines about how CC companies make them do all kinds of stuff, when they're the ones who caused the situation in the first place by allowing products like "eat muffins, cure diabetes" in their marketplace.

                Shame on you CB, shame on you.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10315812].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
                  Here are some thing cb does have absolute control of:

                  1. Whether or not to include some scammy products in their marketplace (miracle cancer cures?) which probably have high refund chargeback rates, damage cb's reputation, and taint everyone by association.

                  2. Whether or not to put on the payment form, the post payment page, and the customer receipt email, in prominent big letters, that the charge will show as "clickbank". Thus largely solving the alleged problem of unrecognized charges.

                  3. Whether or not to try coopt everyone's url (fortunately they seem to have abandoned this one - but note: no reason given about why this supposedly absolutely required change for chip and pin, suddenly transmorphed into not necessary - other than "we listened").

                  4. Whether or not to tell vendors/affiliates about a major forthcoming change proactively, rather than posting in a poorly read blog.

                  5. Whether to tell a consistent story:

                  It's because of chip and pin, it's because people dont recognize cb on their bill, it's because cc companies said so.

                  It's live and required for everyone now... that was only a test.

                  We need on every page of your site. We need on everypage in your funnel. We need it only on pages with a pay link... I dont even know for sure what cb is asking for anymore!

                  6. Whether or not to send the same/consistent explanatory instructions to everyone.

                  7. Whether or not the story makes sense:

                  We need a link to our marketplace retail portal, on some pages (which pages is unclear because they've contradicted themselves on this), of some vendor's sites, because of chip and pin, or perhaps cc companies.

                  Apart from being vague about what we are supposed to do.... does this even make sense?



                  I'm willing to accept that cc companies may require some changes. And i'm actually glad cb wants to build a retail portal.

                  But cb ought to be trying to do it with minimum disruption to the clients (rather than immediately jumping to coopt all clients' sites), and while communicating properly, clearly, and consistently. Right now, it feels like they're flailing.
                  Signature
                  ClickBank Vendor?
                  - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
                  - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
                  - Killer Graphics for Your Site
                  SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10315889].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
              Originally Posted by Derek S View Post

              The banner hits us all (small vendors AND platinums) on November 23rd... Nothing is going to change that
              I note however that this has not been implemented

              "All affiliate traffic driven through the ClickBank hop system will be displayed with the new header on September 23, 2015 with no action required on the part of the vendor."

              .
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10316141].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Michele Miller
                So an affiliate of mine puts the hoplink on his site, the customer clicks on it and sees a header on my sites without me putting it there. Is that what Harvey means? And it's already happening? Can someone post a link to one of these headers? I tried the link someone posted earlier but it wasn't working. Thanks.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10316274].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Michele Miller
                Really looking forward to David S's REP answering these questions posted by Jon Patrick.

                I guess if you have a Platinum Rep you probably get same day answers??

                ================

                I would love for you to ask your platinum vendor ClickBank rep the following questions, and give us her response here:

                1. If ClickBank is doing this because credit card fraud is moving online due to the new chipped cards, how is putting a different banner on the top of a page going to stop somebody from using a stolen credit card?

                2. If ClickBank is doing this because customers are confused when they see "ClickBank" on their credit card statements, why are they not simply adding the vendor/product name onto the line that identifies the charge, or trying the numerous other things they could do to address that issue? Why are they instead using it as an excuse to take over our websites, which is quite convenient now that ClickBank wants to be a "global internet retailer" and is calling our customers their customers?

                3. If ClickBank is doing this because of overall chargeback rates, why are they not simply banning the vendors with high chargeback rates and leaving the rest of us alone?

                4. Why would the credit card companies force ClickBank to do something that has nothing to do with stopping credit card fraud, is not the logical solution to the issue of customers being confused when they see "ClickBank" on their credit card statements, and does not address the issue of vendors who have high chargeback rates? How is that more believable than ClickBank doing this because they want to be a "global internet retailer" and have 200,000,000 customers (who are really their vendors' customers), as they say on their website and social media?

                5. Why is a public relations representative from ClickBank blatantly lying and saying these changes have nothing to do with the new CEO and COO, as if some janitor is making the decisions there? Why is this rep not responding to the direct questions that have been posed here, until one of them is an opportunity to tout platform improvements ClickBank has made?

                6. Why are they referring to changes they have made as a "test" after having to roll them back, when they clearly were not a test and were never described as such?

                7. Why were all of these changes announced with no feedback asked for or given from their customer base?

                8. Who at ClickBank thought it was appropriate to put all of their customers' websites into an IFRAME (even when the traffic isn't coming from ClickBank!) despite the obvious and well-known problems with such an approach, and have they been fired?

                9. Why is the ClickBank header we are supposed to be putting on our websites directing our hard-earned traffic to the ClickBank "marketplace" and converting our potential buyers into ClickBank account holders? Why are the vendors and affiliates whose traffic is being stolen not even being credited with a commission on any resulting sales? Even though that still wouldn't make it right, this last point just adds insult to injury.

                I would love to know what a platinum vendor's account rep says in response to these questions. I bet it's hilarious.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10317034].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
              Others have done a great job of rebutting the arguments by Dave and Derek, so I don't see any need to repeat their responses, but... have you thought this through???

              Originally Posted by Derek S View Post

              The reason the banner's a guarantee is because this
              is what the credit card companies agreed to in order
              for clickbank to keep their relationship with MasterCard
              and Visa.
              Maybe you just didn't word this well, but it sounds like a concession by Clickbank, in a desperate move to retain their merchant accounts (somewhat worrying, in and of itself), rather than a specific remedy that was proposed by the credit card companies.

              Clickbank really may no longer have a choice in this matter, but perhaps that has more to do with their lack of negotiation skills than it does any particular demands by the credit card companies.


              While legally, Clickbank is the "retailer" because their vendors agreed to those terms, in practice they are just the cashier.
              They accept all the major credit cards and Paypal.
              They don't receive product from the vendors, stock it, bag it, nor ship it out.

              Hmmmm.... much like Paypal.

              If you've ever bought anything using a credit card via Paypal, have you ever checked your credit card statement? Does it say "Paypal", or "How to get 1,000 Likes on Facebook"?

              The typical sales page for an item using Paypal as the payment processor has no Paypal header.
              The "buy" button may not even be a "Paypal" button, but one of your own making.
              Paypal (just like Clickbank) also does not deliver the product for you.

              They process the payment through their merchant account just like Clickbank does (as do many other payment services).

              I find myself asking WHY Clickbank finds it necessary to take this step - when NO other payment processor (to my knowledge) has done so. No other payment processor has been required to implement this "branding" process - nor any process similar to this.

              Also now i'm not sure if this is just for Platinum vendors
              or not...

              After working closely with ClickBank on some sort of
              solution, we worked out a great way to get that banner
              off of our direct sales page.

              All we need to do is create a review order page
              in-between the sales page and ClickBanks order form
              Great way????

              What exactly IS Clickbank's order form, but a "review order page"?
              Why does your customer need to review his/her order twice before filling out payment details?
              You think this is a great way?

              I think Clickbank needed to employ greater minds to come up with a better solution (unless, of course, all our speculation about the reasons for a header in the first place are spot on).

              This shows ClickBank is as flexible as they can be
              without pissing off the Credit Card companies and
              working on a solution vendors can work with as well.
              They may have gotten the first part right, but they've failed miserably on creating a solution that vendors can work with. AND... affiliates will be concentrating their efforts toward other affiliate networks, as well.

              Affiliates will not promote a product that invites their referral to go to a marketplace (to check out the competition) and get NO commission on any other sale from that marketplace.
              Signature

              Sid Hale
              Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10316606].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author googletraffic
    CB wanted this branding on every of their sellers sales pages because I think they're losing out on more affiliates or customers due to the fact that JVZOO and Warrior+ are taking the market by storm.


    Now they wanted to be in the game again, as more affiliates are turning their back to both JVZOO and Warrior+ these days. They want more recognition of their Brand.


    Statistic shows, that JVZOO and Warrior+ have more Affiliates and Vendors these days than ClickBank itself. Check out network like Muncheye.com or WarriorJV.com most products and Vendors are from JVZOO and Warrior+ and "Only Few are from Clickbank itself."


    Check out those who make CB to those days, they are not in CB anymore most of them are in Clicksure.com and other networks platform. They even hire the 2 marketers from the past to branding CB like one of those 2 is Adam from Mobile Monopoly for example.


    CB is desperate today because they are keep losing more hopes with Vendors and Affiliates, and now they will even lose big.


    So that's why they are making these changes lately...because of that both JVZOO and Warrior+ are taking the Marketplace these days not Clickbank.


    And even now that they are making these changes, they will soon be out of business because most vendors wanted to brand themselves not Clickbank.


    That is not a smart move to make, they should give Vendors and Affiliates more options just like JVZOO and Warrior+ does.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10312110].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author essmeier
      CB wanted this branding on every of their sellers sales pages because I think they're losing out on more affiliates or customers due to the fact that JVZOO and Warrior+ are taking the market by storm.

      I don't really understand that; JVZoo doesn't auto approve affiliates and sometimes I apply to promote an offer and never even hear back. On other occasions, it's taken weeks to get approval, by which time the product has already peaked.

      With CB it happens now, and now is when I live.

      Charlie
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10316282].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
        Originally Posted by Michele Miller View Post

        So an affiliate of mine puts the hoplink on his site, the customer clicks on it and sees a header on my sites without me putting it there. Is that what Harvey means?
        Yes, that's what I mean but . . .

        Originally Posted by Michele Miller View Post

        And it's already happening?
        It is not happening (it did at first but has now stopped)

        .
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10316302].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author trevord92
        Originally Posted by essmeier View Post

        CB wanted this branding on every of their sellers sales pages because I think they're losing out on more affiliates or customers due to the fact that JVZOO and Warrior+ are taking the market by storm.
        I don't really understand that; JVZoo doesn't auto approve affiliates and sometimes I apply to promote an offer and never even hear back. On other occasions, it's taken weeks to get approval, by which time the product has already peaked.
        With CB it happens now, and now is when I live.
        Charlie
        With Warrior Plus and JVZoo it's up to each vendor they handle affiliate applications.

        I set auto-approval on Warrior Plus but you need to have made a certain amount of sales and have an acceptable refund rate to hit my criteria. Other vendors will work in a similar fashion or they may manually check and approve each application.

        Which does make it different from Clickbank but in return you get commissions of up to 100%, payment instantly or after maybe 30 days (varies according to various rules set by the vendor), no minimum amount threshold or confiscation of funds if you don't make sales regularly enough.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10316317].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author ghost209
      Originally Posted by googletraffic View Post

      CB wanted this branding on every of their sellers sales pages because I think they're losing out on more affiliates or customers due to the fact that JVZOO and Warrior+ are taking the market by storm.

      Now they wanted to be in the game again, as more affiliates are turning their back to both JVZOO and Warrior+ these days. They want more recognition of their Brand.

      Statistic shows, that JVZOO and Warrior+ have more Affiliates and Vendors these days than ClickBank itself. Check out network like Muncheye.com or WarriorJV.com most products and Vendors are from JVZOO and Warrior+ and "Only Few are from Clickbank itself."

      Check out those who make CB to those days, they are not in CB anymore most of them are in Clicksure.com and other networks platform. They even hire the 2 marketers from the past to branding CB like one of those 2 is Adam from Mobile Monopoly for example.

      CB is desperate today because they are keep losing more hopes with Vendors and Affiliates, and now they will even lose big.

      So that's why they are making these changes lately...because of that both JVZOO and Warrior+ are taking the Marketplace these days not Clickbank.

      And even now that they are making these changes, they will soon be out of business because most vendors wanted to brand themselves not Clickbank.

      That is not a smart move to make, they should give Vendors and Affiliates more options just like JVZOO and Warrior+ does.

      And even now that they are making these changes, they will soon be out of business because most vendors wanted to brand themselves not Clickbank.

      Statistic shows, that JVZOO and Warrior+ have more Affiliates and Vendors these days than ClickBank itself.
      do you have any idea what you're talking about? lol

      mind sharing those statistics? you realize that Jvzoo and Warrior+ are both TINY compared to clickbank right?

      Clickbank has done over $4billion in sales. I believe they had record growth this last quarter, and are doing something like $300 - $500million in sales a year.

      read this:
      How Big Is ClickBank’s Big Data? | ClickBank

      They are making 201,500 sales per WEEK and have sold over 100 million products. They are doing fine bro lol

      And I recently got a letter from the new CEO at Clickbank sharing the numbers..
      and this last year they had RECORD growth. so you're wrong, dude lol


      Check out network like Muncheye.com or WarriorJV.com most products and Vendors are from JVZOO and Warrior+ and "Only Few are from Clickbank itself."
      Um, you do realize that the internet is bigger than MMO / IM products, right? lol
      In fact, compared to niches like weight loss.. the IM space is TINY.

      Clickbank has made BILLIONS of dollars. and most of those sales have been in other verticals (not in the IM / mmo space)

      Yes, a few years ago, Clickbank really dropped the hammer on the MMO / IM space.
      They cleaned out alot of the offers in that space, and made it harder to get things approved.

      So if your sales page is filled with hype and bogus income claims, it will get denied.

      Which is why alot of the IM guys ran over to JVZoo and Clicksure.com

      And Clickbank made the right move. the IM / MMO space is a huge liability.
      With all the bogus cliams, actors, and fake screenshots.. it was only a matter of time before the FTC came rushing in and shut it all down.. and it wasn't worth the risk for them.

      Combine that with the high chargeback rates, high risk... and it's bad news.

      But again, they are making BILLIONS of dollars from other offers in health / relationship / solar / pets right now. etc.. so they are doing fine.

      "But but.. munch eye and warrior jv shows all the new launches have been on JV Zoo or WarriorPlus.. so this must mean Clickbank is dying!"

      No. That doesn't mean ANYTHING bro lol

      Munch Eye and Warrior JV, primarily focus on IM / MMO products.. so of course they are mainly going to show JV Zoo and warrior PLus offers.

      When was the last time you saw someone do a WSO for dog training, tomato growing, or anything like that? exactly.

      People do WSO's for MMO products.. not dog training.

      And Chris Munch owns MunchEye. He was (no idea what he's doing these days) in the IM / MMO space.. so that's why you see IM and MMO launches on there.


      And even now that they are making these changes, they will soon be out of business because most vendors wanted to brand themselves not Clickbank.
      "They will soon be out of business" Are you serious bro? LOL
      Dude. they have made BILLIONS of dollars. They are making over 200,000+ sales a week, they've had record growth this last quarter, they've been around for 15 years, and last I heard were making something like half a BILLION dollars a year right now..

      So they are doing FINE.. I hate when people run their mouth on things they have no idea about.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10316681].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Michele Miller
    After seeing how their web site has changed so much, I don't believe they will take this latest demand off the table. I just find it amazing that they have the nerve to make this change. Well Clickbank, you won't make anything off me, I've already decided on another processor.

    Unbelievable that their response most recently totally ignored valid points, and simply stated what great things they had done in the last five years. LOL... See ya CB!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10313688].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
    I think it's sad when these corporations see those that built their company... as a number, a commodity, rather than a real person.

    It's obviously clear of what they are doing, and what their intentions are - just read through this whole thread like I have.

    Like someone else mentioned, it's nothing new, it happens all the time with companies and "networks."

    The question now is... what are you going to do about it?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10314014].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author nicheblogger75
    Why don't they just close their doors and call it a day? They are getting their ass handed to them by JVZoo, Warrior Plus, and Clicksure, and I doubt no matter what they do they will ever be able to recover from it. People love and want instant commissions, period. If CB were to start offering that, and take this ridiculous website takeover idea off the table, maybe they might be able to survive (probably not).

    The bottom line is they have done too little too late. They sat on the fence while the other networks were changing with the times and now they have been left in the dust.

    I stopped promoting Clickbank products 3 years ago because I got disgusted with the ridiculous refund rates. It seemed like I was losing just about every other commission to a refund.

    I promote a lot of products in the "Biz Opp/MMO" niche, as do many Warriors. Someone told me that was the reason why there were so many refunds. That's definitely not true. I used to buy or get a review copy of just about every product I would promote to my list and I made sure they were good ones. Furthermore, once I dropped CB and started promoting the same type of products from JVZoo and Warrior Plus, the refund rates were practically non-existent. Now I might see 1 or 2 refunds per 100 sales. When I promoted CB it was more like 20-30 refunds per 100 sales. Outrageous!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10314035].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author sharfaraz516
    Banned
    Don't think this going to work for clickbank
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10314767].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author winebuddy
    Sorry Clickbank... moving my CB stuff over to JVZoo now. Had a nice ride while you were ok.
    Signature
    "Knowledge is NOT power... ACTION on Knowledge is power"
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10315243].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    dont bitch here guys...no one is gonna give a f*ck... hit your reps up or post in the CB platinum group to them... but I speak with derek all the time, he's a big baller on CB... and what he's saying 100% correct.

    @ trevord92 - totally agree with you... i'm in the dark also... but i'm already making preparations JUST IN CASE I see the conversions drop. I love CB but I'm not about to let my income drop from this.

    @ nolan59 - dude, with all due respect, what derek said is straight from our CB reps and top .5% of the vendors on there, so yes, thats real.

    @ nicheblogger75 - great you don't like it, I don't like it too but no one gives a shit... message CB, tag them on FB or something... posting and complaining here, as you see isn't going to change anything... trust me, none of us vendors like it either...

    @ John, if you were in the top 5% of vendors as you say, you'd already know wtf is going on like the rest of us, and wouldn't be posting some of the stuff you're posting...

    all of our reps already told us whats going on weeks ago, and your rep would have already called you to tell you whats going on...

    plus to answer your question I'm very good friends with many of the top 1% of vendors and we all chat regularly (like derek and my buddy who has the #1 offer on the network).

    @Sunil - ya man... totally agree with ya... but now its a moot point we can't change these things, can we? it's like we gotta wait and see wtf is gonna happen next... but I'm sure 99% of the vendors, we're all making preparations just in case...
    Signature

    “Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.”
    ― Dalai Lama XIV

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10316091].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      Originally Posted by Derek S View Post

      Hey John, Glad to hear you're in the top 5% of us clickbank Vendors... I myself fall in the top 1% category.

      This is the first time I've even responded to anything about the clickbank changes publicly

      why?

      Because i'm "platinum" I have a dedicated rep at clickbank, like i'm sure you should as well at the level you say you're at.

      Every answer you want to know can be answered by your dedicated rep.
      You do understand that an account rep's job is literally to tell us what ClickBank wants them to tell us, right?

      For everyone here not in this category, here's whats up according to ClickBank:
      Fixed that...

      The banner hits us all (small vendors AND platinums) on November 23rd... Nothing is going to change that
      I agree, but I think it's clear at this point that the reason for this is that ClickBank doesn't want to change it.

      The reason the banner's a guarantee is because this is what the creditcard companies agreed to in order for clickbank to keep their relationship with MasterCard and Visa.
      This claim does not constitute new information, an "aha" moment. We have already been told this. I don't believe it for one second, for the reasons I and others have already explained.

      In the future things may change and hopefully for the better. Not confirmed 100% but eventually ClickBank will likely be rebranded with a more customer friendly business name and image.
      That's great and all, but they will have lost any self-respecting vendor or affiliate already due to the other changes.

      The banner will hopefully be further split tested and I pray become less obtrusive over time... But for the time being, this is what we are stuck with.

      From current talks with my rep, the Marketplace link is mandatory for new and low volume vendors while completely optional for established Platinum vendors.
      The link ClickBank wants to put at the top of our website to siphon traffic away to their own site is so important that it's mandatory... only because they are being forced to do this, mind you... but not mandatory for the biggest vendors. Even though those are the vendors whose sites are being seen and used by the most buyers, and therefore whose sites, if such changes were actually necessary, would require it the most.

      Right.

      Also now i'm not sure if this is just for Platinum vendors or not...

      After working closely with ClickBank on some sort of solution, we worked out a great way to get that banner off of our direct sales page.

      All we need to do is create a review order page in-between the sales page and ClickBanks order form

      You might have seen this done before already and some vendors have seen a serious spike in sales from having a two step checkout process.

      The banner only applies to pages that directly link to clickbank's order form. So the review order page is actually a bridge page between your sales letter and their checkout.

      This also means that any vendors using a multi page sales letter with something like a article "next page" format, doesn't have to display the banner until the visitor actually hits the page with a buy button linking to clickbanks order form.
      I don't know why anyone would change their checkout process like this to accommodate ClickBank instead of simply switching to different service providers for payment processing and affiliate management. Sure, keep your product in the system and display a page like this if the hop came from ClickBank, but don't use them in any other capacity.

      And that's assuming this is even an option to everyone, and not just the platinum vendors with whom ClickBank is playing favorites about implementing these so-called necessary changes.

      This shows ClickBank is as flexible as they can be without pissing off the Credit Card companies
      Again, I'm not buying it. You can refer back to the posts I and others have made regarding ClickBank's claim that they are being forced to do this by the credit card companies. That simply does not add up. What remains is the fact that they are trying to take over their vendors' websites while calling themselves a "global internet retailer" and claiming that all of their vendors' customers are actually their customers.

      It really does not pass the smell test.

      So not exactly the end of the world for marketers who understand that working online means always having to change, adapt and make things work in our favor eventually.
      No sensible vendor is going to let a third party take over their website in a clearly self-interested way using irrational justifications, and no sensible affiliate is going to send traffic to a site with the ClickBank branding, links, and URL at the top.

      The only people who have to take this are the ones who are actually chained to ClickBank: vendors whose traffic comes largely from ClickBank hoplinks, and affiliates who have links out there which they can't update or who can't find any other offers to promote.

      We as a vendor are not in that situation. In fact, I think most vendors and affiliates don't fall into those categories. ClickBank does not have the leverage to abuse their customers like this, despite what their new CEO and COO think.

      I'm going to switch to Stipe and a company like Zaxaa.com for my own personal sales. Allowing Affiliates to join this option for higher instant commissions and perks like prizes and giveaways

      I'll always keep ClickBank as an option to affiliates who wish to stick with them... Yet also open my offers up to additional networks like JVZOO and ClickSure.
      On this part, I totally agree. That is exactly what I would suggest.

      Hope this has cleared some rumors and hear say up thats been spreading around this thread.
      You're simply repeating what ClickBank is telling you. No offense intended, but that's what is happening.

      Any LEGIT questions you guys have let me know and I'll see if I can answer them for you
      All of these questions are legit.

      if not...

      Ask my ClickBank rep and give you her response here.
      I would love for you to ask your platinum vendor ClickBank rep the following questions, and give us her response here:

      1. If ClickBank is doing this because credit card fraud is moving online due to the new chipped cards, how is putting a different banner on the top of a page going to stop somebody from using a stolen credit card?

      2. If ClickBank is doing this because customers are confused when they see "ClickBank" on their credit card statements, why are they not simply adding the vendor/product name onto the line that identifies the charge, or trying the numerous other things they could do to address that issue? Why are they instead using it as an excuse to take over our websites, which is quite convenient now that ClickBank wants to be a "global internet retailer" and is calling our customers their customers?

      3. If ClickBank is doing this because of overall chargeback rates, why are they not simply banning the vendors with high chargeback rates and leaving the rest of us alone?

      4. Why would the credit card companies force ClickBank to do something that has nothing to do with stopping credit card fraud, is not the logical solution to the issue of customers being confused when they see "ClickBank" on their credit card statements, and does not address the issue of vendors who have high chargeback rates? How is that more believable than ClickBank doing this because they want to be a "global internet retailer" and have 200,000,000 customers (who are really their vendors' customers), as they say on their website and social media?

      5. Why is a public relations representative from ClickBank blatantly lying and saying these changes have nothing to do with the new CEO and COO, as if some janitor is making the decisions there? Why is this rep not responding to the direct questions that have been posed here, until one of them is an opportunity to tout platform improvements ClickBank has made?

      6. Why are they referring to changes they have made as a "test" after having to roll them back, when they clearly were not a test and were never described as such?

      7. Why were all of these changes announced with no feedback asked for or given from their customer base?

      8. Who at ClickBank thought it was appropriate to put all of their customers' websites into an IFRAME (even when the traffic isn't coming from ClickBank!) despite the obvious and well-known problems with such an approach, and have they been fired?

      9. Why is the ClickBank header we are supposed to be putting on our websites directing our hard-earned traffic to the ClickBank "marketplace" and converting our potential buyers into ClickBank account holders? Why are the vendors and affiliates whose traffic is being stolen not even being credited with a commission on any resulting sales? Even though that still wouldn't make it right, this last point just adds insult to injury.

      I would love to know what a platinum vendor's account rep says in response to these questions. I bet it's hilarious.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10316112].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      dont bitch here guys…no one is gonna give a f*ck
      I think it's important for people who are considering doing business with ClickBank to see this, and I don't think the careful analysis and honest questions in this thread can be minimized as simple bitching.

      ... hit your reps up or post in the CB platinum group to them… but I speak with derek all the time, he's a big baller on CB… and what he's saying 100% correct.
      Based on what? Explain.

      @ trevord92 - totally agree with you… i'm in the dark also… but i'm already making preparations JUST IN CASE I see the conversions drop. I love CB but I'm not about to let my income drop from this.
      That's definitely wise. It's good to see that even people who buy into what ClickBank is saying are making preparations to move.

      @ nolan59 - dude, with all due respect, what derek said is straight from our CB reps and top .5% of the vendors on there, so yes, thats real.
      Your reps and the reps of other vendors are all ClickBank employees whose job it is to tell you what ClickBank wants you to hear.

      If you're just going to accept what they tell you, regardless of whether it makes any logical sense, I don't see what you have to contribute to the discussion.

      @ nicheblogger75 - great you don't like it, I don't like it too but no one gives a shit… message CB, tag them on FB or something… posting and complaining here, as you see isn't going to change anything
      But messaging them or tagging them on Facebook will? Honestly, I'm trying not to be rude here. But if you don't like the fact that this is being discussed, you are free to remove yourself from the thread. Nobody is forcing you to read it.

      … trust me, none of us vendors like it either...
      Of course not. Many of the members participating in this discussion are vendors.

      @ John, if you were in the top 5% of vendors as you say, you'd already know wtf is going on like the rest of us, and wouldn't be posting some of the stuff you're posting…
      I do already know what is going on, and I've asked you to provide any additional information you have which hasn't already been discussed here. You haven't done so.

      I have no interest in lying about the business I have spent years building. There is a reason I am passionate about this subject. My business pays my bills. My business sent me on two vacations this year and allowed me to spend a couple grand on shoes without feeling guilty because it didn't affect my finances in any meaningful way.

      I am well aware of the company line at ClickBank. Like many others, I don't believe it, and I have thoroughly explained why. You have not addressed anything I've said. You simply keep repeating that you believe them because they told you so.

      If you, as a platinum vendor - I won't question your truthfulness, I'll just respond to what you're saying in an intellectually honest manner - have some actual information I don't have, then again, I invite you to post it. Tell me how I'm wrong. Tell me how what they're saying makes sense. Provide a counterargument to what I and others have been saying.

      Otherwise, your posts aren't particularly worthwhile.

      all of our reps already told us whats going on weeks ago
      Your rep told you the company line. You believe it. That doesn't make it true. I don't know how much more clear I can be without beginning to insult your intelligence.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10316135].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author vMartin
    It's all rather simple...

    Clickbank got big with a couple of mids and a horrible coded affiliate system processing mostly scammy products online.

    Just to name a few that where/are plain out illegal: (Possible loopholes with good lawyers to process them)

    P2P illegal downloading or pretending to be products.
    Watch TV online with torrented rtmp streams.
    MMO products with nothing but promise and no value.
    Diet products packaged as 7 days weight-loss miracles.
    Cures to Diabetes.

    The list goes on and on.... With plenty of products still being on there.

    Clickbank like any other Merchant will get pressure from Banks (Visa and Mastercard) for processing absolute shit products. The higher the risk, refund and chargeback rates the more pressure they get which can eventually lead to being shut down completely and if not that, much higher processing fees.

    Now the industry (Mosty banks) are getting cracked down even harder Clickbank is forced to change towards a business model that doesn't put them at risk losing their merchant processing, get higher processing fees etc thus leaning towards the Amazon model.

    In reality Clickbank is just an outdated affiliate based processing model that will never become anything of value.

    If the product you own is of value with low refund rates you can do a gazillion times better than processing it with Clickbank and you would be much better off building your in-house affiliate program. If you don't have a lot of trust in your product but it's still legit and/or are a small fish you can simply use services such as jvzoo and warrior pro to help with the affiliate side of things.
    Signature
    PROMOTE OUR NEW PLATINUM CONVERTING OFFER
    AND SKYROCKET YOUR CONVERSION RATES THROUGH THE ROOF 2021!


    CLICK HERE AND FIND OUT Get up to $120 per sale
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10316551].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      Originally Posted by vMartin View Post

      It's all rather simple...

      Clickbank got big with a couple of mids and a horrible coded affiliate system processing mostly scammy products online.

      Just to name a few that where/are plain out illegal: (Possible loopholes with good lawyers to process them)

      P2P illegal downloading or pretending to be products.
      Watch TV online with torrented rtmp streams.
      MMO products with nothing but promise and no value.
      Diet products packaged as 7 days weight-loss miracles.
      Cures to Diabetes.

      The list goes on and on.... With plenty of products still being on there.

      Clickbank like any other Merchant will get pressure from Banks (Visa and Mastercard) for processing absolute shit products. The higher the risk, refund and chargeback rates the more pressure they get which can eventually lead to being shut down completely and if not that, much higher processing fees.

      Now the industry (Mosty banks) are getting cracked down even harder Clickbank is forced to change towards a business model that doesn't put them at risk losing their merchant processing, get higher processing fees etc thus leaning towards the Amazon model.

      In reality Clickbank is just an outdated affiliate based processing model that will never become anything of value.

      If the product you own is of value with low refund rates you can do a gazillion times better than processing it with Clickbank and you would be much better off building your in-house affiliate program. If you don't have a lot of trust in your product but it's still legit and/or are a small fish you can simply use services such as jvzoo and warrior pro to help with the affiliate side of things.
      I don't disagree with a lot of what you said, but I don't think the credit card companies are forcing ClickBank to do what they're doing. If it was about scammy products and refund/chargeback rates, the solution would be for ClickBank to tighten up on the vendors selling those kinds of products. Not to take over all of their other customers' websites in a conspicuously self-interested way that is unrelated to the supposed problem.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10316579].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author vMartin
        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        I don't disagree with a lot of what you said, but I don't think the credit card companies are forcing ClickBank to do what they're doing. If it was about scammy products and refund/chargeback rates, the solution would be for ClickBank to tighten up on the vendors selling those kinds of products. Not to take over all of their other customers' websites in a conspicuously self-interested way that is unrelated to the supposed problem.

        Very on point but if you ever "owned" a mid or several for the matter you would understand even 15% refund rate is a pain in the ass to process for refunds and chargebacks are even more hardcore.. Most merchant processors will have around 10% refund rate limits on which they are obligated to either pay a higher processing % or get kicked off all together.

        Since Clickbank has been around for so long and most likely build up a very good relationship with either their banks or third party mids (More than likely all direct) they can get away with a bit more.

        Not to talk smack about WSO's and all the MMO shit but it's mostly fraud and processing that is just a pain in the ass. (Not a single merchant really wants to process that but they will take it on with risk versus reward)

        Simply kicking off all non-value products doesn't seem much of a option. Just take a close look at the top 100 CB marketplace and you will soon find out why.

        Reference: Top clickbank products by gravity - CBENGINE

        Most products on there will most likely comply within the law and possible FTC issues but the most successful affiliates that drive these products have the most noncompliant landing pages you can imagine.

        Such as diet for example; most of the products are ran with "false celeb claims" on how they lost weight and so forth. Or recently sued "army wife" landers how they lost weight when their husband came back home.

        This in itself is the "affiliate world" we are dealing with so please do call a spade a spade.

        Clickbank obviously will need to change the business model to survive and instead of sticking with Clickbank I would just recommend to move on and leave them all together. It's not worth sacrificing your own product for their gain.
        Signature
        PROMOTE OUR NEW PLATINUM CONVERTING OFFER
        AND SKYROCKET YOUR CONVERSION RATES THROUGH THE ROOF 2021!


        CLICK HERE AND FIND OUT Get up to $120 per sale
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10318745].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
          Originally Posted by vMartin View Post

          Very on point but if you ever "owned" a mid or several for the matter you would understand even 15% refund rate is a pain in the ass to process for refunds and chargebacks are even more hardcore.. Most merchant processors will have around 10% refund rate limits on which they are obligated to either pay a higher processing % or get kicked off all together.

          Since Clickbank has been around for so long and most likely build up a very good relationship with either their banks or third party mids (More than likely all direct) they can get away with a bit more.

          Not to talk smack about WSO's and all the MMO shit but it's mostly fraud and processing that is just a pain in the ass. (Not a single merchant really wants to process that but they will take it on with risk versus reward)

          Simply kicking off all non-value products doesn't seem much of a option. Just take a close look at the top 100 CB marketplace and you will soon find out why.
          Essentially, what you're saying is that ClickBank can not get rid of scammy merchants, so they have to take over our website - which has nothing to do with that type of behavior - and put a self-serving banner at the top which steals our traffic and makes it look like our website belongs to ClickBank.

          In other words, conveniently self-serving actions justified by an unrelated problem that isn't solved by those actions.

          Doing that to us, and all of the other vendors who don't sell scammy products (of which there are many), doesn't address the issue of high refunds/chargebacks due to scammy vendors in any way.

          Don't get me wrong - I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. I just don't think this is a very convincing argument.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10318969].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Michele Miller
    Have any other payment processing companies asked to put a banner directing people to their web site on your site?? NOPE of course not. Not likely too either.

    Pathetic lies Clickbank!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10317044].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author LizM
    Rapbank, similar to Clickbank but much smaller has closed their doors.
    Signature
    ***New Start-up Entrepreneurs***
    More about Entrepreneurs
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10318275].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author nicheblogger75
      Originally Posted by LizM View Post

      Rapbank, similar to Clickbank but much smaller has closed their doors.
      RapBank was nothing like Clickbank. First off all RapBank products paid instant commission.

      Most of the products listed on RapBank were MRR/PLR products as well. RapBank never had close to the amount of affiliates CB has, even at their peak.

      Comparing RapBank to Clickbank is like comparing apples to oranges. Not even close.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10318335].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    @Michelle miller - sorry but your last post is SO off base and incorrect… if you do a little reading about things, you'd know that clickbank is the reseller of your products… you can't compare them to paypal stripe or jvzoo…. its apples to oranges…

    please educate yourself guys so you aren't posting mis-information, lets use some common sense here folks.
    Signature

    “Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.”
    ― Dalai Lama XIV

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10318455].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Michele Miller
      I am well aware they are a reseller of my products, but they still process the payments. No other company is going to ask to put a banner on your page for fraud control. I never compared them to Paypal, Stripe, or JV Zoo did I?


      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      @Michelle miller - sorry but your last post is SO off base and incorrect… if you do a little reading about things, you'd know that clickbank is the reseller of your products… you can't compare them to paypal stripe or jvzoo…. its apples to oranges…

      please educate yourself guys so you aren't posting mis-information, lets use some common sense here folks.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10318599].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      Hey Dave

      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      @Michelle miller - sorry but your last post is SO off base and incorrect... if you do a little reading about things, you'd know that clickbank is the reseller of your products... you can't compare them to paypal stripe or jvzoo.... its apples to oranges...
      We understand fully that CB is different from Paypal, Stripe, or JVZoo. We understand that CB is a "reseller" of the products - but, as I pointed out above, it's NOT because CB purchased resale rights. Those rights were simply granted by the vendor, as a condition of listing the product on their platform.

      I'll repeat that for you...
      Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

      While legally, Clickbank is the "retailer" because their vendors agreed to those terms, in practice they are just the cashier.

      They accept all the major credit cards and Paypal.
      But... they don't 1) receive product from the vendors, 2) stock it, 3) bag it, nor 3) ship it out.
      In other words, although they have a reseller's agreement in place - the actual service they provide is nothing more than a payment processor.

      Further...
      I find myself asking WHY Clickbank finds it necessary to take this step - when NO other payment processor (to my knowledge) has done so. No other payment processor has been required to implement this "branding" process - nor any process similar to this.
      Since the branding of vendor's web sites is NOT being imposed on Paypal or any other payment processor, one has to ask WHY CB has been singled out... why is ClickBank required to brand the vendor's web pages?

      I think that the level of fraudulent transactions (and the resulting chargebacks) must be greater for Clickbank and I understand their need to address this issue, BUT... the wholesale "branding" of the vendor'a web pages does NOTHING to address the underlying problem.

      please educate yourself guys so you aren't posting mis-information, lets use some common sense here folks.
      Perhaps it is you who are mis-informed.

      I'll assume that Clickbank is more forthcoming with you (as a "platinum" vendor) than with their run of the mill vendor, but I do hope that you are not so naive as to believe that they are sharing every detail of their board meetings and/or credit card company negotiations with you. You may have even gotten prior notice of the upcoming changes, and/or some input/discussion of those plans via some special forum group - but you can bet that you get the "corporate spin" just like anyone else.

      It sounds to me like you are so enamored of your platinum status, that you have become delusional.
      Signature

      Sid Hale
      Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10318679].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author professorrosado
        Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

        ..........

        I think that the level of fraudulent transactions (and the resulting chargebacks) must be greater for Clickbank and I understand their need to address this issue, BUT... the wholesale "branding" of the vendor'a web pages does NOTHING to address the underlying problem. ......
        Well, if the main reason (as in #1 reason) a chargeback is found justifiable by the CC company is that the customer did not know that it was a Clickbank purchase from jump, then they are indeed addressing THE issue.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10318862].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
          Originally Posted by professorrosado View Post

          Well, if the main reason (as in #1 reason) a chargeback is found justifiable by the CC company is that the customer did not know that it was a Clickbank purchase from jump, then they are indeed addressing THE issue.
          I'll quote myself in response to this:

          Originally Posted by Jon Patrick

          2. If ClickBank is doing this because customers are confused when they see "ClickBank" on their credit card statements, why are they not simply adding the vendor/product name onto the line that identifies the charge, or trying the numerous other things they could do to address that issue? Why are they instead using it as an excuse to take over our websites, which is quite convenient now that ClickBank wants to be a "global internet retailer" and is calling our customers their customers?
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10318974].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
          Originally Posted by professorrosado View Post

          Well, if the main reason (as in #1 reason) a chargeback is found justifiable by the CC company is that the customer did not know that it was a Clickbank purchase from jump, then they are indeed addressing THE issue.
          Terrible way to handle the issue.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10318996].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Michele Miller
          If this is their way of handling this issue, it is totally unethical. You'd have to really be naive to think this is the best they could come up with. Their latest move is self-serving to say the least.

          As I have been with them for about 13 years, I recall at one time many years ago, we were told to make sure that our download pages "reminded" the customer that it would show on their cc statement as Clickbank. I have that on all my download pages and have rarely had to issue refunds.



          Originally Posted by professorrosado View Post

          Well, if the main reason (as in #1 reason) a chargeback is found justifiable by the CC company is that the customer did not know that it was a Clickbank purchase from jump, then they are indeed addressing THE issue.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10319017].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
            Originally Posted by Michele Miller View Post

            If this is their way of handling this issue, it is totally unethical. You'd have to really be naive to think this is the best they could come up with. Their latest move is self-serving to say the least.

            As I have been with them for about 13 years, I recall at one time many years ago, we were told to make sure that our download pages "reminded" the customer that it would show on their cc statement as Clickbank. I have that on all my download pages and have rarely had to issue refunds.
            I say on the page BEFORE, and on the Thank you page AFTER the order, as well as in the automatic email I sent to each customer, very prominently, that the charge will show as "ClickBank". I thought the thankyou page statement of this was required? Any if not, why not?

            If every vendor did this, surely this would virtually solve any "not recognizing CB as the merchant problems".with virtually no wider impact? Certainly less impact than CB hijacking part or all of vendors' websites?


            I don't recall my last charge-back BTW. It's been that long. Several years at least. So I'm still at a loss as to how add a CB banner to some/all pages of my sites, will reduce charge-back further? It's like taking a sledgehammer (or maybe a screwdriver, since a banner is completely the wrong tool) to crack a nut, except in my case, there isn't even a nut to be cracked!
            Signature
            ClickBank Vendor?
            - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
            - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
            - Killer Graphics for Your Site
            SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10319311].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
          Hey Prof,

          Originally Posted by professorrosado View Post

          Well, if the main reason (as in #1 reason) a chargeback is found justifiable by the CC company is that the customer did not know that it was a Clickbank purchase from jump, then they are indeed addressing THE issue.
          This has essentially been said before, but I'll put it a little more bluntly so that there is NO misunderstanding.

          The #1 reason that a chargeback is found justifiable by the CC company is that it is, indeed, justifiable.

          The primary reason for chargebacks has NOTHING to do with old card technology (or newer technology, for that matter). It has to do with fraudulent use of stolen credit card numbers. The credit card companies are bound by their own agreement with the cardholder to honor those chargebacks.

          A goofy header on YOUR sales page will NOT cause a fraudulent card user to back away from using that card, and while CB may think that it will (I don't think so)... the credit card companies are quite sure that it WILL NOT deter fraudulent card usage.
          Signature

          Sid Hale
          Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10319616].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      @Michelle miller - sorry but your last post is SO off base and incorrect... if you do a little reading about things, you'd know that clickbank is the reseller of your products... you can't compare them to paypal stripe or jvzoo.... its apples to oranges...

      please educate yourself guys so you aren't posting mis-information, lets use some common sense here folks.
      The only reason Clickbank is a "reseller" of our products is because it facilitates exposure to potential affiliates. Many people go to Clickbank to look for products to promote.

      But Clickbank is not an online shop like Amazon. The main purpose of Clickbank is to distribute commissions to affiliates and vendors. That's pretty much the only reason why we use the platform.

      From a practical point of view, Clickbank is just a payment processor that lists our products on their website so that other people can promote them.

      Yes, I am aware that from a legal point of view they might be resellers, but that doesn't mean they can now suddenly hijack our websites and change the whole business model that brought them success in the first place.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10318680].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author snallanon
    I have read on here about what people think it will mean for their business.

    If you don't like it or feel it will hurt your business then move onto another company such as JVZoo, the warrior form itself, instastudio, etc the list goes on.

    Whether you like it or not click bank is doing it, that's a fact.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10318876].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    A lot of people are so mean to ClickBank.

    I like ClickBank.

    Their best benefit, is that *you* do not have to pay your affiliates. You never do. They handle that for you. (You never touch that money, period).

    I'll continue to publish some of my information products there, I'm confident that they're not out to hose their end users.

    Heck, this could lead to a lot of improvements and innovation on ClickBank's end.

    -puts on flame retardant suit and heads for the hills, expecting a litany of curses from the angry mob-
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10319688].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      Originally Posted by Sarevok View Post

      A lot of people are so mean to ClickBank.

      I like ClickBank.
      I used to like them, too, before they tried to get all mafia on us and take over all of our websites.

      Their best benefit, is that *you* do not have to pay your affiliates. You never do. They handle that for you. (You never touch that money, period).
      That benefit is far outweighed by the negatives at this point.

      I'll continue to publish some of my information products there, I'm confident that they're not out to hose their end users.
      I don't really know how you could think that at this point. If you're a vendor, they want to take over your website, put their header and branding at the top, change your URL to their URL, and steal your traffic with a link to their marketplace.

      If you're an affiliate, they want the pages where you send your traffic to be leaky, which costs you sales and commissions.

      And they are trying to justify these blatantly self-serving actions with claims that make no sense whatsoever, and don't hold up to any scrutiny.

      How is this not hosing their users?

      Heck, this could lead to a lot of improvements and innovation on ClickBank's end.
      Or it could do what it clearly does, which is let ClickBank take over all of their vendors' websites and parade themselves around as a "global internet retailer" with 200,000,000 customers (who are actually their vendors' customers), which is exactly what they're doing.

      -puts on flame retardant suit and heads for the hills, expecting a litany of curses from the angry mob-
      I'm not going to curse at you. I just don't think what you're saying is logical.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10320477].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Wayne
        There have been times when I have ordered something from other companies, and when I got the credit card statement couldn't think of what the charge was for. Would have to go back through my order receipts (I always keep a receipt on everything I order) to remember what it was for. I think the same thing probably happens with Clickbank. But even with the Clickbank header showing on everyone's sites, if I wasn't aware of who Clickbank was, I might forget by the time I got the credit card statement what the purchase was for. I think this probably happens for a lot of people. The descriptors on the credit card statements are not the best sometimes for remembering what the purchase was for.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10320567].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          I'll continue to publish some of my information products there, I'm confident that they're not out to hose their end users.
          That's fine - and no one should be arguing with that. Where you put your products is your choice and your business.

          Of course, if your sales drop like a rock because affiliates and other sellers leave CB ...you might have to reconsider. If the sales remain steady, no problem.
          Signature
          Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
          ***
          One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
          what it is instead of what you think it should be.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10320602].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
          Originally Posted by Wayne View Post

          There have been times when I have ordered something from other companies, and when I got the credit card statement couldn't think of what the charge was for. Would have to go back through my order receipts (I always keep a receipt on everything I order) to remember what it was for. I think the same thing probably happens with Clickbank. But even with the Clickbank header showing on everyone's sites, if I wasn't aware of who Clickbank was, I might forget by the time I got the credit card statement what the purchase was for. I think this probably happens for a lot of people. The descriptors on the credit card statements are not the best sometimes for remembering what the purchase was for.
          There are other, far less drastic and invasive solutions to a problem like that. For starters, putting the vendor/product name on the line that identifies the charge, or making the notices that the charge will say "ClickBank" more prominent on the order form and thank you page.

          Instead, they are using it as a justification to take over everybody's websites? How convenient for them.

          It really doesn't pass the smell test.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10320641].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
          Interesting update.

          I would imagine vendors could comply by creating an extra page (an interstitial page) before the payment link.
          and this extra page would have to be the one with the cb logo?

          If so, why dont cb just display an institial of their own, with the logo, before the payment form - this would have the same effect, but without requiring anybody to update their web sites.r
          Signature
          ClickBank Vendor?
          - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
          - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
          - Killer Graphics for Your Site
          SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10336840].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
            Hey Sunil,

            Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

            I would imagine vendors could comply by creating an extra page (an interstitial page) before the payment link.
            and this extra page would have to be the one with the cb logo?

            If so, why dont cb just display an institial of their own, with the logo, before the payment form - this would have the same effect, but without requiring anybody to update their web sites.r
            ClickBank already has an "interstitial" page. It's the payment form!
            They can put their logo all over that page - they could even brand that page further by putting their header on that page.

            Introducing yet another page just makes checkout more tiresome for the customer and would result in reduced sales.
            Signature

            Sid Hale
            Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10336880].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
              Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

              Introducing yet another page just makes checkout more tiresome for the customer and would result in reduced sales.
              This.

              An intermediate page would leak sales.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10337082].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author nolan59
                As Clickbank still have not opened a channel / forum on their own website where vendors can talk directly to them, I am forced to yet again voice my opinion and feedback through a 3rd party forum, which is unaffiliated with CB

                Clickbank statement said:
                And There's More We Need to Do

                There are still more changes we must make, and we'll need your help and input along the way:

                1. New End-Customer Focused Website:
                From our website customers must understand who ClickBank is and what type of products we sell. We've changed our website accordingly, now featuring products on our platform.

                2. Content Delivery:
                We need to support content delivery to customers, when possible. This should have an added benefit of taking the technical support burden off of vendors for products, like e-books, where the consumer may not understand how to download the product or if resending download links is necessary.

                3. Customer Account Support:
                Repeat customers will be able to create an account to store their purchase history and payment information. This comes with an added benefit of faster checkout for repeat customers and serves an ongoing request from vendors.
                From this it has become crystal clear that the final plan is to convert your business from a payment gateway & affiliate type platform to become a product delivery platform, similar to services like Payhip, Udemy and Amazon FBA where the actual product, and ultimately the sales letter as well, is housed on your own servers.

                This direction change may have been prompted by Visa, Mastercard, et al having said you are charging people money, but have nothing to sell. As a result you now need to prove you actually have products by branding our web pages as your own.

                This has led you to change direction and become the actual retailer instead of the middleman.

                Regardless of what prompted this change of direction / thought process, there can be no doubt that the final consideration and true driving force behind this change is purely to add more profit to your bottom line. This in itself is not a bad thing, you are a business after all.

                How this change must inevitably be implemented is however a problem.

                In order to effect this change eventually our vendor status, and our websites, will need to fall away and we will all become suppliers of products to your virtual warehouse, just like a course uploaded to Udemy or a physical product sold via the Amazon FBA system.

                We will supply the products to the CB "warehouse". You will "warehouse", sell and fulfill the products on our behalf.

                As with an Amazon FBA product it will still be in our best interest to set up a good sales letter on your system and promote / send traffic to our sales pages.

                The problem you have is that you can't just ask us to dump our websites and shift over to the final system because it means asking us to give up our assets (websites & traffic) and hand it over to yourselves. As a result you have no choice but to continue to insist on making our web pages look like your pages in order to get us and the public used to see your branding instead of ours.

                In other words for your business to get from point A (payment & affiliate provider) to point B (internet super retailer) - you need to gradually degrade / water down our branding & assets in order to make them irrelevant and ultimately shift them over to yourselves.

                In effect it means you need to hijack your vendor's assets and traffic in order to make them yours - a virtual land grab if you will.

                On a practical level this will mean you would be in control of my products and pricing, removing any power I have.

                A good example of the damage that can do is like what happens on Udemy - every two minutes they are discounting everybody's products (even one's normally priced in the hundreds of $'s) to $10 or $15 in order to make as many sales as possible. As a result their vendors are now making a mere few dollars on products that should be selling for hundreds. The only people that are smiling there are Udemy themselves.

                Another example is that you could at a whim decide to stop "stocking" my product and remove it from your "warehouse" leaving me with nothing to fall back on. Next thing we will have to start paying you to improve our ranking in your shop because you own the traffic, like Amazon does.

                To sum up - you are asking me to hand over my business' assets to you, which I am unwilling to do.

                As a result I cannot walk this path you any further and will be moving my products off the CB platform.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10337163].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
                Originally Posted by Pnigro View Post

                This.

                An intermediate page would leak sales.
                I dont necessarily disagree. but my point is that many vendors will comply with the requiremenr for cb branding on the cb payment link page, By adding an interstitial page after the sales letter, with the cb payment link on it. (this also side steps the problem of cb branding potentially appearing on a sales letter that offers multiple payment options).

                So... given that what CB's proposal will ultimately do, is encourage vendors to create an interstitial page - why don't CB simply create their own interstital page after the pay link (or simply put the CB branding on the pay form), and be done with it.
                Signature
                ClickBank Vendor?
                - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
                - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
                - Killer Graphics for Your Site
                SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10337380].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author trevord92
    It's been a while since I've bought a product on Clickbank but a few things I know other credit card processors (err sorry I mean "retailers") use include:
    • Address verification - this happens behind the scenes and can get confused by things like abbreviations for UK counties but generally works OK.
    • Verified by Visa & the Mastercard equivalent - the Visa site specifically states "Liability shift from the merchant/acquirer to the issuer provides protection from chargebacks for qualified transactions."
    Between those two, I'd have thought it woukl get over most chargeback issues and I'd be shocked if Clickbank's credit card partners hadn't suggested those as a solution.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10320167].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author marketinguk
    I have been closely monitoring much of what has been said in this thread and to me a few things are now becoming pretty clear:

    Clickbank is no longer the company they once were. Anyone burying their heads in the sand hoping for the good old days to return are likely to be disappointed. As Jon et al have pointed out the changes are very convenient for them at a time that they are trying to re position themselves, as is very evident from their site redesign.

    Just that one change alone should be enough to tell you there's change on the way, no matter what the exact end result looks like. I must admit to being still in shock that they have tried to go this route and still seem intent on taking this further. Quite a nerve they have IMO to hijack our hard earned traffic etc.

    I'm not going to go further into those points as they have been expounded very well by a number of people.

    I saw clickbank's most recent reply to this thread and was waiting patiently hoping for them to address a long list of the issues mentioned, instead they chose to nitpick at one comment regarding what clickbank have done in recent years to improve the marketplace. This is of course pretty irrelevant to the overall OP and the ongoing concerns and yet that was all that was addressed.

    Not even a polite, "we have noted what you have said and will address your concerns in due course" came back in that post or thus far in any subsequent post. That deliberate omission was pretty clear to me that what we want to see happen longer term is likely to fall on deaf ears.

    In short, anyone not seriously considering migrating away if not already migrated is making an error IMO. I could not justify promoting clickbank products ever again as things are or launching any new products with them. All credibility and respect I once had for them has evaporated unfortunately.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10320836].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author ClickBank
      Originally Posted by marketinguk View Post

      I saw clickbank's most recent reply to this thread and was waiting patiently hoping for them to address a long list of the issues mentioned, instead they chose to nitpick at one comment regarding what has clickbank done in recent years to improve the marketplace. This is of course pretty irrelevant to the overall OP and ongoing concerns and yet that was all that was addressed.

      Not even a polite, "we have noted what you have said and will address your concerns in due course" came back in that post or thus far in any subsequent post.
      Hi marketinguk,

      We are still paying attention and listening and you are correct that we have not issued a further reply to the points being raised in this thread, but one is coming. I will post it here when it is ready in the next several days.

      Thanks,
      The ClickBank Team
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10320855].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author marketinguk
        Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

        Hi marketinguk,

        We are still paying attention and listening and you are correct that we have not issued a further reply to the points being raised in this thread, but one is coming. I will post it here when it is ready in the next several days.

        Thanks,
        The ClickBank Team
        That is all well and good, but it did not come across well that you jumped in to address the most irrelevant point in the thread to date whilst not even giving as much as an acknowledgement until my post today about the real issues ongoing.

        I must confess, anything short of a full and unreserved about turn and apology for what has gone on will do little to placate many sellers and affiliates myself included. If the people at the top that came up with these crazy changes and worst still actually implemented them remain at the helm of Clickbank there is a serious trust issue going forward IMO. How do we know what's next on the "agenda"?

        Others are free to disagree, but frankly I see this as a reputation management disaster and hard to overlook no matter what updates we get from this point on. I don't normally write in such strong fashion, but this whole situation has made many of us very disappointed to say the least and that is being polite.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10321128].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
        Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

        Hi marketinguk,

        We are still paying attention and listening and you are correct that we have not issued a further reply to the points being raised in this thread, but one is coming. I will post it here when it is ready in the next several days.

        Thanks,
        The ClickBank Team
        One thing I think you should be aware of:

        Things may appear to have gone relatively quiet now (apart from here and on some other forums), but there are 3 reasons for that:

        1. A lot of vendors/affiliates don't know what happened on September 23rd. They didn't see it action. If they weren't paying attention (for example by testing an affiliate's hop link to a vendor site on the right day), it would have been easy to miss the banner/frame.

        I would venture to say, that even more vendors/affiliates would have been even more upset, if they had seen it in action - since I've not heard one vendor/affiliate who was aware, say anything but negatives about it.


        2. A lot of vendors/affiliates seem to be under the impression that September 23rd was a one off, and the change has been rolled back - and they've had a narrow escape from disaster.

        I would venture to say, they're going to be very annoyed if it turns out to be merely a postponement rather than a narrow escape,


        3. There are already lot of vendors who are already ready to jump ship, if things don't turn out to their liking.... that number can grow, very very quickly.

        At the moment vendors leaving is probably a relative trickle, because many people are waiting to see what happens going forward.

        You need to give them answers - one that they can be happy with - or that trickle will become a flood.


        4. There is a lot of private discussion and plans going on, particularly on switching plaforms. What you're seeing on forums is the tip of the iceberg.

        You guys need to win vendors back over to your side and soon.



        Here's the bottom line from my point of view:

        I've been CB loyalist for 15 years, and would prefer to stay one. I would prefer to continue to use CB on my own sites, and when people ask me what platform to use to sell on, I would like to be able to confidently recommend CB (as I used to do for years - I've referred hundreds of vendors, as many of them began by using my eBook software, and asking me to help/show them how to sell their resulting eBooks).

        But I can't stay a CB loyalist, if you implement these changes. The banner (whether Iframe or JS) is such a horrible idea, that it devalues your entire platform as far as I am concerned. The banner is such a huge negative, that if implemented/required, I could not recommend CB regardless of what other positive improvements you made.

        And right now even when vendors ask me privately whether/how to switch platform (and quite a few have), the best I can say in your favour is "Wait and see, maybe CB won't implement all the horrible banner ideas that they've been experimenting with".

        If you can't even get me to recommend becoming/staying a CB vendor, then there's the problem.
        Signature
        ClickBank Vendor?
        - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
        - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
        - Killer Graphics for Your Site
        SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10321233].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author agmccall
        Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

        Hi marketinguk,

        We are still paying attention and listening and you are correct that we have not issued a further reply to the points being raised in this thread, but one is coming. I will post it here when it is ready in the next several days.

        Thanks,
        The ClickBank Team
        We are still waiting

        al
        Signature

        "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10324595].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Okane
          ...and waiting...
          .
          .
          .
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10325761].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
            Funny how they need days and days to come up with responses. When you're telling the truth, it doesn't take that long.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10326416].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
              Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

              Funny how they need days and days to come up with responses. When you're telling the truth, it doesn't take that long.
              One thing you learn about the corporate world is that any public statement by any company spokesperson likely needs a round of approvals before seeing the light of day.

              My guess is that the response y'all are waiting for is making the rounds of the legal department, PR department, etc. Once it's been sanitized of all meaning, it will be forthcoming...
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10326465].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                One thing you learn about the corporate world is that any public statement by any company spokesperson likely needs a round of approvals before seeing the light of day.

                My guess is that the response y'all are waiting for is making the rounds of the legal department, PR department, etc. Once it's been sanitized of all meaning, it will be forthcoming...
                I agree with you somewhat, especially about the last part. But I do think it's telling that they still have not answered some of the simple questions that have been getting raised by outraged customers here and elsewhere for over a week.

                A truthful response to a basic question really does not require that much time to clear with your lawyers.

                Not to mention the fact that they obviously should have been prepared for us to ask. Did they really think they could just announce that they are going to take over all of our websites and steal our traffic, while providing us with a very dubious justification, and we wouldn't ask any questions?

                It's not hard to see the problem with what they're doing and how they're trying to justify it. Why does a buyer occasionally being confused when they see "ClickBank" on their credit card statement justify ClickBank taking over all of their customers' websites and stealing their traffic, when there are numerous other, more obvious solutions to that supposed problem which would be far less damaging and invasive (and less self-serving on ClickBank's part)?

                If they didn't even expect us to ask that question, they really do think their customers are idiots.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10326480].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author agmccall
                Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                One thing you learn about the corporate world is that any public statement by any company spokesperson likely needs a round of approvals before seeing the light of day.

                My guess is that the response y'all are waiting for is making the rounds of the legal department, PR department, etc. Once it's been sanitized of all meaning, it will be forthcoming...

                The thing is though, when they are formulating their statements they do so from the premise that we are all stupid. I have seen it many times. I am speaking of corporations in general and not clickbank specifically

                al
                Signature

                "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10326579].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author professorrosado
                Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                ...My guess is that the response y'all are waiting for is making the rounds of the legal department, PR department, etc. Once it's been sanitized of all meaning, it will be forthcoming...
                I think if they could find a way to box it and sell it they would be "literally" sitting on a goldmine! LOL
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10326602].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author professorrosado
        Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

        Hi marketinguk,

        We are still paying attention and listening and you are correct that we have not issued a further reply to the points being raised in this thread, but one is coming. I will post it here when it is ready in the next several days.

        Thanks,
        The ClickBank Team
        Well, there's one thing for sure that "executives" at CB did not do right and that is that they failed to survey ALL stakeholders "before" implementing changes and this thread is just a small part of the fallout.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10326531].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author agmccall
        Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

        Hi marketinguk,

        We are still paying attention and listening and you are correct that we have not issued a further reply to the points being raised in this thread, but one is coming. I will post it here when it is ready in the next several days.

        Thanks,
        The ClickBank Team
        6 days and counting

        al
        Signature

        "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10332609].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author nolan59
          Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

          6 days and counting

          al
          In fact it is not really 6 days, it is more than a month now with zero meaningful communication
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10332771].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
          I do hope you aren't holding your breath, Al.


          Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

          6 days and counting
          They not only have to wait for the "paint to dry" before getting out of this corner... they now have to try to come up with a more plausible excuse for their actions.

          A difficult task now, as anything they say at this point will be much more heavily scrutinized.
          Signature

          Sid Hale
          Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10333361].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author 24INVEST
    I still think that you (clickbank) should hold on to the Clickbank logo etc on the buy button. In the end that would still be a better idea then destroying 20% of your total business if not more, with some stupid header. I mean, not only vendors will move but also a f&%kton of affiliates.

    How one change can destroy a whole business...
    Signature
    How Low Is Your Interest At Your Local Bank?

    You Know There Is More Possible Online, Right?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10320947].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      Originally Posted by 24INVEST View Post

      I still think that you (clickbank) should hold on to the Clickbank logo etc on the buy button. In the end that would still be a better idea then destroying 20% of your total business if not more, with some stupid header. I mean, not only vendors will move but also a f&%kton of affiliates.

      How one change can destroy a whole business...
      Having a ClickBank logo on the buy button would certainly be better than what they are attempting to do, provided it was done well (and not in a way that makes it look like ClickBank is the product owner, creator, etc.)

      But setting aside the fact that it's unnecessary... I don't think they would be satisfied with that, because it doesn't get them what they clearly want.

      What they want is to take over all of their vendors' websites, put their header and branding at the top, change every vendor's domain name to a ClickBank URL, and steal traffic from the vendors' websites (including the traffic sent by affiliates) for their own site and "marketplace."

      This is what these changes do, in plain English.

      And they're trying to justify it by saying customers are sometimes confused when they see "ClickBank" on their credit card statements, as if that in any way necessitates these actions. It obviously does not. That is absurd on its face.

      What these actions do is assist ClickBank in rebranding themselves as a "global internet retailer" and claiming to have a huge number of customers, which are in reality their vendors' customers.

      ClickBank's actual customers are the vendors and affiliates who use their payment processing and affiliate management services, and they are thoroughly betraying those customers' trust.

      But don't worry, guys - sometime in the next few days, ClickBank will release a canned public relations/damage control message in response to our concerns. Meetings are happening at ClickBank right now to figure out how they can tell us these actions are necessary and get us to believe it.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10321330].message }}
      • [DELETED]
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10321581].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
          Originally Posted by AAVU Against CBAOSP

          If any part of this program goes through, we have been informed that there are well-funded groups who plan to carry out serious retaliatory actions against you. I won't get into specifics for obvious reasons, but think about what Anonymous has done and also the group who recently hacked Ashley Madison. Note that our group is not threatening you, but take this as public notice that there are now other groups who most certainly will if this program continues.
          I don't know if this is productive. Of course, we're all on the same page with regards to their actions being unacceptable. But I think the fallout from vendors and affiliates abandoning ClickBank will do the trick, and that is exactly what's going to happen if they try to move forward with this. The groups you are referring to could make the leadership at ClickBank think they actually have the moral high ground, when in reality they are in the gutter.

          I agree 100% with the rest of your post.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10321693].message }}
          • Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

            I don't know if this is productive. Of course, we're all on the same page with regards to their actions being unacceptable. But I think the fallout from vendors and affiliates abandoning ClickBank will do the trick, and that is exactly what's going to happen if they try to move forward with this. The groups you are referring to could make the leadership at ClickBank think they actually have the moral high ground, when in reality they are in the gutter.

            I agree 100% with the rest of your post.
            Jon - I don't necessarily agree with this kind of retaliatory action being undertaken, but these are the sorts of unintended consequences and collateral damage that ClickBank has left itself vulnerable to in eroding trust and usurping people's rights in such an abhorrent and deplorable way.

            The implications of predatory greed and corporate deception has a way of backfiring in unpredictable ways - especially in this day and age.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10321744].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author nolan59
    ditto on everything marketinguk has said above
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10321181].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author FromCook2King
    With a little creativity. You can use this to your advantage or create/have a plugin that overrides this.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10321474].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author greenbay92
    Quick check:

    Is anyone experiencing payment delays (direct deposit) after CB's banner change.

    Not sure if there's a connection, but I've noticed that payments up to September 23 almost always arrived in time while there seems to be a delay in receiving October's payment.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10322029].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author DaveDunn
      No delay here. Payment received as usual today.

      Originally Posted by greenbay92 View Post

      Quick check:

      Is anyone experiencing payment delays (direct deposit) after CB's banner change.

      Not sure if there's a connection, but I've noticed that payments up to September 23 almost always arrived in time while there seems to be a delay in receiving October's payment.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10322109].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author backlinks11
    The problem is that you will get no commission after someone clicks on that header.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10326623].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      Originally Posted by backlinks11 View Post

      The problem is that you will get no commission after someone clicks on that header.
      That's definitely one of the problems, but even if they gave us a commission, it's still not OK to take over our websites and steal our traffic.

      The whole scheme needs to be abandoned in its entirety.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10326696].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
    I'm ready to launch a new product but I will not do it on Clickbank while they seem to be in limbo, and while they are not being able to give us a straight answer.

    Each day that passes they seem to be killing more and more of their business, and this greatly concerns me because it's also affecting my business.

    A solid response from them any day now would be great.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10328630].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author 24INVEST
    Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

    That's definitely one of the problems, but even if they gave us a commission, it's still not OK to take over our websites and steal our traffic.

    The whole scheme needs to be abandoned in its entirety.
    I think that Clickbank has forgotten how valuable their Vendors are. Just take the product "google sniper" for instance. The product has a high gravity rate for years, which means there are a lot of affiliates promoting it. The sales page of the product is very good designed in a black theme. It one of the most responsive designs I have seen since the product launched. Now what will happen if Clickbank puts a plain white header on it. We both know will happen, right? And this is just an example of many great responsive products.

    Ok, I get it. Clickbank wants to prevent that people panic when they see the Clickbank statement on their credit card bills or where ever they see it. But common! Just wait for a moment! Does Clickbank need to make vendors, affiliates angry just because 0.05% of the customers panic... Really?

    Clickbank, just send a survey to all Vendors and get their creative opinion about this matter.
    And don't let them wait such a long time. Afterall, it are the people where your business is build on
    Signature
    How Low Is Your Interest At Your Local Bank?

    You Know There Is More Possible Online, Right?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10328755].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Stefan Vee
    Their "featured Products" section seems to be designed to bypass the individual sales pages as well.
    https://www.clickbank.com
    Do they really think people will buy a product just from seeing a short summary?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10328758].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author 24INVEST
      Originally Posted by Stefan Vee View Post

      Their "featured Products" section seems to be designed to bypass the individual sales pages as well.
      https://www.clickbank.com
      Do they really think people will buy a product just from seeing a short summary?
      No, They probably have a new Intern
      Signature
      How Low Is Your Interest At Your Local Bank?

      You Know There Is More Possible Online, Right?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10328775].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Okane
      Originally Posted by Stefan Vee View Post

      Do they really think people will buy a product just from seeing a short summary?
      It's shocking to see how little they seem to understand about how to sell digital products online. All the competence in this field, all the effort put there that made CB big and strong, it all comes from the vendors and affiliates.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10329407].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Nisip
    Banned
    maximum Clickbank gravity , of the best selling products , used to be years ago 800 - 1000

    now it is usually around 200 something only

    According to Alexa statistics, It looks like Clickbank is in a free fall / collapse:

    clickbank.com Site Overview
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10329752].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author greatdn
    i think it will be damaging to leads and sales for affiliates, much like domain parking pages that state at the top "advertisements", this will deter visitors from clicking any links.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10330340].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author jahidhasan240
    On September 23rd Clickbank will be rolling out a new design change which will potentially have a large impact on sales across their whole network, affecting both merchants and affiliates.

    As one of Clickbank's biggest clients, they've let us know in advance. So we're letting you know.

    ...Because this is a big deal.


    What is changing?
    From what we understand, these are the changes:

    Change #1: A compulsory, permanent "Clickbank" banner on sales pages

    This is loaded automatically by Clickbank at the top of merchant "pitch pages" (sales pages), checkout pages, and after-purchase/download pages. The version we saw also had some buttons on the right, directing customers to the Clickbank marketplace (not the affiliate marketplace), and some customer support information. Here's what the banner looks like:


    (The "support" box isn't there all the time: Only if the visitor clicks on the "customer support" button in the banner.)


    Change #2: Pages will be forced to load inside a Clickbank frame

    The URL of pages displaying the banner (pitch pages, checkout pages, download pages) will no longer be something like this:



    ... and instead it will be something like this:


    So it will appear as though the visitor has left the merchant's website, and is now on Clickbank's website. (Which is technically what is happening. Clickbank is loading the merchant's website inside a frame.)
    Who is this going to affect?
    In short, everybody. And soon.

    Initially it will be rolled out so that only traffic arriving through an affiliate link will see the banner and the iframe. (This will happen on the 23rd September.)

    Two months after that (23rd November), it will be rolled out to all traffic, so that even visitors who originally arrived at a merchant site through the search engines will see the Clickbank banner.

    At the moment it sounds like this banner will only affect pages that are part of the sales funnel: The sales page, checkout page, and download page. If the merchant has other articles and content on their site, it sounds like the banner won't appear on those.


    What impact will this have on my business?
    It's hard to know at this point. There's a chance that it will have no impact whatsoever.

    (Just like there's a chance a hurricane might change course and drop down from a category 5 to "a light smattering of rain that might dampen your picnic".) So our official advice is "Don't panic."

    That said, we do have some serious concerns about the effect this will have on sales -- both for merchants and for affiliates.

    The issues are mostly due to the impact on user experience. To put it plainly, we think these changes might confuse customers, and prevent some of them from buying. Here's why:


    #1: It (appears to) take people away from the merchant website:

    If your customer is paying attention to the address in their address bar, they will see it change from www.merchantwebsite.com to shop.clickbank.net.

    Unless you specifically prepare your customers for this, it can be a little bit jarring. We already invest a lot of effort into preparing customers to be taken to Clickbank for checkout. And this is after we've convinced them to buy.

    Now we'll need to pre-empt this anxiety before we've even built the relationship with the customer. There's a chance we might lose customers who are looking for the "official" place to buy the product. And that's because of this second point...


    #2: The URL lacks any branding, and makes it look like a phishing site:

    This is maybe only for our more paranoid sub-section of customers, but when you expect to visit www.merchantsite.com and instead you're redirected to this...
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10330352].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Michele Miller
      Just seeing the spammy name Clickbank in the header will turn customers away. It sounds suspicious. I thought that when I signed up as a
      VENDOR many years ago. I still think it's an awful name. Doesn't sound like anything too trustworthy as a "customer". As a VENDOR I learned from this forum to sign up with them way back when, in 2002, but do you think your traffic/potential customers will think that looks okay??? Phahahaha....

      Not everybody has heard of them. And even if they had, the premise of hijacking the vendors' sites and branding them as their own is absolutely ludicrous.

      Not sure why you posted that post, as from reading the whole thread, we are well aware of what's happening, but thanks I guess.


      Originally Posted by jahidhasan240 View Post

      On September 23rd Clickbank will be rolling out a new design change which will potentially have a large impact on sales across their whole network, affecting both merchants and affiliates.

      As one of Clickbank's biggest clients, they've let us know in advance. So we're letting you know.

      ...Because this is a big deal.


      What is changing?
      From what we understand, these are the changes:

      Change #1: A compulsory, permanent "Clickbank" banner on sales pages

      This is loaded automatically by Clickbank at the top of merchant "pitch pages" (sales pages), checkout pages, and after-purchase/download pages. The version we saw also had some buttons on the right, directing customers to the Clickbank marketplace (not the affiliate marketplace), and some customer support information. Here's what the banner looks like:


      (The "support" box isn't there all the time: Only if the visitor clicks on the "customer support" button in the banner.)


      Change #2: Pages will be forced to load inside a Clickbank frame

      The URL of pages displaying the banner (pitch pages, checkout pages, download pages) will no longer be something like this:



      ... and instead it will be something like this:


      So it will appear as though the visitor has left the merchant's website, and is now on Clickbank's website. (Which is technically what is happening. Clickbank is loading the merchant's website inside a frame.)
      Who is this going to affect?
      In short, everybody. And soon.

      Initially it will be rolled out so that only traffic arriving through an affiliate link will see the banner and the iframe. (This will happen on the 23rd September.)

      Two months after that (23rd November), it will be rolled out to all traffic, so that even visitors who originally arrived at a merchant site through the search engines will see the Clickbank banner.

      At the moment it sounds like this banner will only affect pages that are part of the sales funnel: The sales page, checkout page, and download page. If the merchant has other articles and content on their site, it sounds like the banner won't appear on those.


      What impact will this have on my business?
      It's hard to know at this point. There's a chance that it will have no impact whatsoever.

      (Just like there's a chance a hurricane might change course and drop down from a category 5 to "a light smattering of rain that might dampen your picnic".) So our official advice is "Don't panic."

      That said, we do have some serious concerns about the effect this will have on sales -- both for merchants and for affiliates.

      The issues are mostly due to the impact on user experience. To put it plainly, we think these changes might confuse customers, and prevent some of them from buying. Here's why:


      #1: It (appears to) take people away from the merchant website:

      If your customer is paying attention to the address in their address bar, they will see it change from www.merchantwebsite.com to shop.clickbank.net.

      Unless you specifically prepare your customers for this, it can be a little bit jarring. We already invest a lot of effort into preparing customers to be taken to Clickbank for checkout. And this is after we've convinced them to buy.

      Now we'll need to pre-empt this anxiety before we've even built the relationship with the customer. There's a chance we might lose customers who are looking for the "official" place to buy the product. And that's because of this second point...


      #2: The URL lacks any branding, and makes it look like a phishing site:

      This is maybe only for our more paranoid sub-section of customers, but when you expect to visit www.merchantsite.com and instead you're redirected to this...
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10330944].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Michele Miller
    Really looking forward to David S's REP answering these questions posted by Jon Patrick.

    ===============

    I guess his Rep couldn't answer the questions like he said he would ask? lol.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10330949].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Stefan Vee
      Originally Posted by Michele Miller View Post

      I guess his Rep couldn't answer the questions like he said he would ask? lol.
      Of course he/she could, but I guess far too many Warriors wrongly assume that all Clickbank's top publishers are visiting this forum on a frequent basis.

      My wildest guess is that most of the top vendors don't even care about these changes (as long as the sales keep coming in)
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10330969].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Michele Miller
        I didn't wrongly assume anything. Dave S said he would ask his rep any questions we had. Whether he really is a top publisher is anyone's guess.

        Originally Posted by Stefan Vee View Post

        Of course he/she could, but I guess far too many Warriors wrongly assume that all Clickbank's top publishers are visiting this forum on a frequent basis.

        My wildest guess is that most of the top vendors don't even care about these changes (as long as the sales keep coming in)
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10331006].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Stefan Vee
          Originally Posted by Michele Miller View Post

          I didn't wrongly assume anything. Dave S said he would ask his rep any questions we had. Whether he really is a top publisher is anyone's guess.
          Who cares? Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. That's not what this thread is all about, is it? Have you tried to PM him? (don't need an answer. Thanks!)
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10331014].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Derek S
          Originally Posted by Michele Miller View Post

          Dave S said he would ask his rep any questions we had.
          Hey lady, you talk'n to me? LOL

          Don't take a second to call me by
          my proper name...

          I wont take a second to care about
          your thread or questions.

          This threads turned into all conspiracy
          theories and more disturbingly, threats
          of being hacked?? LOL

          Everyone needs to stop asking

          "why is this happening???"

          and focus only on the question

          "What to do moving forward?"

          BANNER IS A DONE DEAL

          LIVE WITH IT, WORK AROUND IT
          OR MOVE ELSEWHERE!

          Meanwhile in my private circle of top
          vendors, we have already come up with
          at least 5 solid short term hacks to get
          around the banner completely lol

          Along with our ClickBank exit strategy:

          #1) Measure how banner effects sales

          #2) Switch all personal sales to Stripe.com

          #3) Hack the banner until ClickBank cares

          #4) All while switching our loyal affiliate
          base over to a new network for perks like
          instant commissions and prizes

          #5) Hope for ClickBank to rebrand and come
          back as a payment processor that handles
          affiliates, instead of being a "retailer"

          Stop investing your energy in caring about
          "why is this happening?" and target it towards
          "how should we best move forward?"
          Signature

          --- Work Smart... Not Hard ---

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10331355].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
            Originally Posted by Derek S View Post

            Hey lady, you talk'n to me? LOL

            Don't take a second to call me by
            my proper name...

            I wont take a second to care about
            your thread or questions.
            Was this not you:

            Originally Posted by Derek S

            Any LEGIT questions you guys have let me know
            and I'll see if I can answer them for you

            if not...

            Ask my ClickBank rep and give you her response
            here.
            It's not productive to start giving people a hard time when they simply take you at your word.

            This threads turned into all conspiracy
            theories
            There has been a lot of rational discussion in this thread. As I see it, these are the simple facts of the situation:

            - ClickBank has a new CEO and COO.

            - ClickBank is now trying to take over every vendor's website, put their header and branding at the top, and change the vendor's website URL to a ClickBank URL.

            - While they are doing this, they are now calling themselves a "global internet retailer with 200,000,000 customers." The customers they are talking about are the buyers on their vendors' websites - the websites they are trying to take over.

            - The header they want to put at the top of every vendor's website has links to ClickBank's own site and "marketplace" on it, which results in traffic and sales being stolen from the vendor and from any affiliates who send traffic to the vendor's website.

            - The justification they are providing for these self-serving actions is that sometimes a buyer is confused when they see ClickBank on their credit card statement.

            - The above justification does not stand up to any scrutiny. There are numerous other less damaging and invasive ways of addressing a problem like that, assuming it is even a real problem. Any responsible company would try all other options and would not even think about trying to hijack all of their vendors' websites and steal their traffic.

            - ClickBank has been having a hard time responding to the fallout that has ensued, as the vendors and affiliates angrily realize what they are doing and unequivocally reject it. They are spending days trying to muster a response to the backlash, and have said that at some point they will post that response here.

            Now, my theory is that their response will not be convincing, simply because it is already obvious to everyone that their actions are damaging and their intentions are unethical.

            and more disturbingly, threats
            of being hacked?? LOL
            Out of the many people who have been participating in this discussion, only one person said anything like this, and that post was removed.

            Everyone needs to stop asking

            "why is this happening???"
            Most of us aren't asking that, because it's obvious why this is happening. ClickBank envisions becoming a retail destination for digital products, and the leadership there had the bright idea that it would be a lot easier if they took over all of their vendors' websites and stole their traffic.

            and focus only on the question

            "What to do moving forward?"
            Many of us have discussed this. To the extent that we're also discussing other aspects of the situation and haven't chosen to "focus only" on that aspect, that is really our decision to make.

            BANNER IS A DONE DEAL

            LIVE WITH IT, WORK AROUND IT
            OR MOVE ELSEWHERE!
            I don't think accepting something so egregious and telling others to accept it is productive.

            Meanwhile in my private circle of top
            vendors, we have already come up with
            at least 5 solid short term hacks to get
            around the banner completely lol

            Along with our ClickBank exit strategy:

            #1) Measure how banner effects sales

            #2) Switch all personal sales to Stripe.com

            #3) Hack the banner until ClickBank cares

            #4) All while switching our loyal affiliate
            base over to a new network for perks like
            instant commissions and prizes

            #5) Hope for ClickBank to rebrand and come
            back as a payment processor that handles
            affiliates, instead of being a "retailer"

            Stop investing your energy in caring about
            "why is this happening?" and target it towards
            "how should we best move forward?"
            With regard to leaving ClickBank and mitigating the damage they are causing in the meantime, I think we are all on the same page.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10331730].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
        Originally Posted by Stefan Vee View Post

        Of course he/she could, but I guess far too many Warriors wrongly assume that all Clickbank's top publishers are visiting this forum on a frequent basis.
        I'm not sure you thought this post through. The words in bold are actually an assumption by definition. Not only that, but it's even less convincing because he was the one who offered to bring answers back from his rep in the first place, and that hasn't happened.

        My wildest guess is that most of the top vendors don't even care about these changes (as long as the sales keep coming in)
        A vendor cares if:

        - They are running a real business and need their website to look like THEIR website.
        - They don't appreciate being coerced into letting a self-interested third party take over their website based on dubious justifications.
        - They worry about what the leadership at ClickBank has in mind for the future if this is how they are now operating.
        - They don't want their hard-earned traffic being siphoned away to another website where it can no longer result in sales.
        - They worry about the conversion rate from their remaining traffic being negatively affected by this whole scheme (header, URL, etc.), which is very likely indeed.

        Any sensible affiliate cares as well. Nobody in their right mind wants to have their traffic and sales stolen out from under their noses like this.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10331018].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Stefan Vee
          Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

          A vendor cares if:

          - They are running a real business and need their website to look like THEIR website.
          - They don't appreciate being coerced into letting a self-interested third party take over their website based on dubious justifications.
          - They worry about what the leadership at ClickBank has in mind for the future if this is how they are now operating.
          - They don't want their hard-earned traffic being siphoned away to another website where it can no longer result in sales.
          - They worry about the conversion rate from their remaining traffic being negatively affected by this whole scheme (header, URL, etc.), which is very likely indeed.

          Any sensible affiliate cares as well. Nobody in their right mind wants to have their traffic and sales stolen out from under their noses like this.
          I agree with all that, I just said that most vendors don't care IF sales keep coming in. CB affiliates may be a big part of these sales, and in that case there's no easy way to just say "good bye".
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10331030].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author joaquin112
    I'm just going to stick with clickbank for as long as they keep providing the same service they're providing right now. The moment they start to change the rules, designs or whatever I'm gone.
    Signature

    Publish your digital course at Accomplisher.com. We create the video sales letter, drive affiliate traffic and split the profits with you. If you want to start making money by teaching online, submit your application here.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10331078].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
    This can really only go two ways.

    Clickbank can come up with a resolution that satisfies most vendors and affiliates (dropping the banner completely would imho probably be the only plausible resolution of this type). I think most vendors and affiliates would quickly put this saga behind them, if the outcome was good - so cb would suffer minimal long term damage.

    Or

    Cb can press ahead with the banner. They may make some some short term cash, but it will trigger an exodus of vendors & affils. There are many other places they can go.

    I am reminded of a couple of past incidents.

    There was a very successful traffic exchange that cross linked niche sites in various categories. One day they decided to add a banner when linking one site to another. They probably made extra money for a few days since they surprised their members, but a month later they had lost 90% of their members.

    There was also a software (shareware, downloads, etc) retailer. Kind of similar to cb - they acted as retailer for small vendors. They decided to exploit their vendors, and forgot that customers wanted to buy, and perceived themselves as buying, the vendor's product rather than becoming customers of some amorphous digital retailer. Anyway these guys added a checkbox (checked by default of course) that when a customer bought a vendor's product, they were also signed up to various offers from the retailer. I bey the retailer made extra money for a few days. But Customers were livid, so were vendors, and the retailer went from thousands of vendors to hundreds in a couple of months.



    As for the banner being a "done deal", i'm not if that is the case, since cb have already changed their plans for the iframe, plus we are all waiting for an update from cb.

    But even if it were, there's still plenty to discuss, including:

    1. What exactly is cb asking vendors to implement, and on which pages, and what will the js do (since i understand it is currently inactive). This is all very unclear at present.

    2. Which other platform to migrate to

    3. Technical and business issues for the migration.

    Plus plenty of people simply dont know what was/is going on.

    Plus if course, if people are unhappy, there's nothing wrong with venting.
    Signature
    ClickBank Vendor?
    - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
    - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
    - Killer Graphics for Your Site
    SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10331822].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author greenbay92
      I've seen a significant fall in sales these past 3 weeks which, incidentally, coincides with the time CB forced their banner situation on us.

      I'm not new to CB; in fact, this is my 9th year. I've seen my fair share of ups and downs but through all that I knew that tomorrow would be a new day.

      Lately though, I'm turning skeptic. Whatever CB is doing behind the scenes, they clearly broke something up front. There's a scheduled maintenance on the 20th of this month. I'm wondering what new unilateral "surprises" that's going to throw up.

      If it ain't broken, don't fix it. Looks like someone didn't get that memo.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10332127].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author HypMovator
    I have been actively looking at alternatives to CB over the past few days and found something on the SWREG site that seems to have covered/countered the CC statement confusion that CB have been using as one of the main excuses for the possible changes ahead. This was implemented back in 2007.

    Why does SWREG appear on my bill or credit card statement?

    Prior to 2007, the SWREG name appeared on all credit card statements, independent of product purchased or vendor. In 2007, SWREG added the ability for our vendors to provide their own company name or product name on credit card/billing statements in order to make it more recognizable to their customers. In addition, for all new SWREG vendors, we changed the billing defaults to reflect the vendor name in order to clearly show the specific information related to the purchase and minimize any customer confusion. SWREG does provide a service to vendors to enable them to sell products to customers and provide vendor specific information such as product name on credit card and billing statements.

    Surely, if one company can do this - CB could also adopt this simple solution and drop this Banner Idea that none of their vendors or affiliates want on their websites!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10332493].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Michele Miller
      They could, if that was really the reason. Unfortunately, it is a thinly veiled excuse they are laying on us. What the reason really is, is that they want to take over our web sites so as to appear like they own everything, among other self-serving reasons.


      Originally Posted by HypMovator View Post

      I have been actively looking at alternatives to CB over the past few days and found something on the SWREG site that seems to have covered/countered the CC statement confusion that CB have been using as one of the main excuses for the possible changes ahead. This was implemented back in 2007.

      Why does SWREG appear on my bill or credit card statement?

      Prior to 2007, the SWREG name appeared on all credit card statements, independent of product purchased or vendor. In 2007, SWREG added the ability for our vendors to provide their own company name or product name on credit card/billing statements in order to make it more recognizable to their customers. In addition, for all new SWREG vendors, we changed the billing defaults to reflect the vendor name in order to clearly show the specific information related to the purchase and minimize any customer confusion. SWREG does provide a service to vendors to enable them to sell products to customers and provide vendor specific information such as product name on credit card and billing statements.

      Surely, if one company can do this - CB could also adopt this simple solution and drop this Banner Idea that none of their vendors or affiliates want on their websites!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10332525].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Derek S
      Originally Posted by HypMovator View Post

      Surely, if one company can do this - CB could also adopt this simple solution and drop this Banner Idea that none of their vendors or affiliates want on their websites!
      I was part of the beta program with ClickBank that actually allowed us as vendors to do this. CB called it "Billing Descriptors" and you can actually find an official page on it here: https://support.clickbank.com/entrie...ng-Descriptors

      I had mine set but never really tested its effect on chargbacks and as you can read in that article "CLKBANK*" still appeared before your custom descriptor

      It just ended one day with no reason why it was ending and nothing more was said about it.
      Signature

      --- Work Smart... Not Hard ---

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10332867].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author MilesBaker
        Originally Posted by Derek S View Post

        I was part of the beta program with ClickBank that actually allowed us as vendors to do this. CB called it "Billing Descriptors" and you can actually find an official page on it here: https://support.clickbank.com/entrie...ng-Descriptors

        I had mine set but never really tested its effect on chargbacks and as you can read in that article "CLKBANK*" still appeared before your custom descriptor

        It just ended one day with no reason why it was ending and nothing more was said about it.
        I was told by ClickBank that feature was disabled because it was causing more refunds and chargebacks. I would think it would cause less, but that's what I was told.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10332900].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
          Originally Posted by MilesBaker View Post

          I was told by ClickBank that feature was disabled because it was causing more refunds and chargebacks.
          So...
          using the Billing Descriptor in order to create continuity of branding from the sales page to the CC receipt supposedly caused an increase in refunds/chargebacks, but they have now decided that doing the opposite (using a Clickbank header to re-brand the sales page so that it matches what is currently on the CC receipt), will reduce refunds/chargebacks????

          Sure...
          Signature

          Sid Hale
          Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10333357].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Thembs15
    This is going to bad for business, i reckon many of CB's affiliate's and merchants are going to start exploring their options.

    Having customers see another brand on the checkout page is just going to confuse them and make the process more complicating.

    As an affiliate, all we can do is pre-empt the customers so that they are aware before they reach the checkout page.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10333403].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author HypMovator
    Quick Update: I raised my concerns about the AOSP banner and the lack of communication and transparency with Clickbank.

    Here is their response received today!

    Hello,

    Thank you for your inquiry. We are sending out emails this week regarding this issue. We will no longer be requiring an iframe and, at this time you do not need to do anything regarding the java script. We will keep you updated with any changes.

    I know that our executive team has put together an informative email along with a blog that will explain everything and apologize for our mistake in creating such confusion for our customer's. You should be receiving the email soon.

    Please let me know if I can be of further assistance!

    Clickbank


    Hopefully we will all know where we stand with Clickbank by the end of the week, one way or another!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10334223].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      Originally Posted by HypMovator View Post

      Thank you for your inquiry. We are sending out emails this week regarding this issue. We will no longer be requiring an iframe and, at this time you do not need to do anything regarding the java script. We will keep you updated with any changes.
      The portion of that email that I've underlined was communicated a couple of weeks ago, when they terminated their "extensive" (tongue in cheek) test.

      I know that our executive team has put together an informative email along with a blog that will explain everything and apologize for our mistake in creating such confusion for our customer's.
      I think it's pretty obvious in this thread that most of the members here on the WF saw right through their attempted deception. "Confusion" isn't the right term for what was created.
      Signature

      Sid Hale
      Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10335042].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
        Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

        I think it's pretty obvious in this thread that most of the members here on the WF saw right through their attempted deception. "Confusion" isn't the right term for what was created.
        I'm quite happy for them to call it "confusion", a "mistake", or a "test", or anything else they choose..... just so long as that damned banner doesn't come back, ever.
        Signature
        ClickBank Vendor?
        - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
        - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
        - Killer Graphics for Your Site
        SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10336107].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author ClickBank
          Thank you for your patience as we have been meeting with clients and working on our next steps moving forward. As promised, we have posted a reply and everyone should be receiving an email from our CEO shortly. A link to relevant posts:

          An Implementation Fail and Our Commitment to Earning Your Trust Back

          Payment Models Overview and Why It Matters To You

          Knowledge Base article covering different payment processing approaches

          Thanks,
          The ClickBank Team
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10336436].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
            Kudos, Clickbank...

            Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

            Thank you for your patience as we have been meeting with clients and working on our next steps moving forward. As promised, we have posted a reply and everyone should be receiving an email from our CEO shortly. A link to relevant posts:

            An Implementation Fail and Our Commitment to Earning Your Trust Back

            Payment Models Overview and Why It Matters To You

            Knowledge Base article covering different payment processing approaches

            Thanks,
            The ClickBank Team
            I, personally, have never taken issue with the creation of a consumer oriented Marketplace and actually think that it makes a lot of sense. Clickbank has always been a retailer by legal definition, but not in practice. The Marketplace corrects that, and over time it should be of great benefit to your vendors.

            While the other links are appreciated, that first one is the really important one.

            However, in your acknowledgement of the failed implementation, this part still bothers me:
            However, We Must Retain ClickBank Branding on Some Pages

            At the directive of our card brand partners, we must show customers the ClickBank logo on any page that has a pay link. We’re now dedicated to doing this in a way that is acceptable to you. We hosted initial design discussions with several key vendors and affiliates this week and all indications are that we’re on the right track. We expect beta versions to be ready around the 27th of October. We will be clearly communicating these changes with you prior to implementation.
            (emphasis added)

            Maybe I'm wrong, but this still sounds like you intend to brand the vendor's sales page.

            ClickBank already has branding on the order confirmation page, which is where the only true "pay link" exists. If you think about it... the vendor's sales page is really only an ad to sell YOUR retail product (not really unlike an affiliate's PPC ad, pre-sales blog post, or an email with a link).

            The "buy button" on the vendor's sales page is really just a link to the ClickBank site so that the visitor can make a purchase. They are committed to NOTHING until they confirm the order details on that page (i.e. by reviewing the order details and clicking on the actual "pay now" button). Maybe you should concentrate on better branding of that page.

            It was pointed out earlier in this thread that ClickBank once beta-tested the ability to add a "Billing Descriptor" to the credit card statement. Personally, I think you should re-visit the potential for that, but allow the vendor to supply a separate "Billing Descriptor" for each product, rather than a single descriptor for his entire account. In fact - maybe you should require that a unique Billing Descriptor be supplied by all ClickBank vendors.

            Assuming you have "cleaned up" the offers at ClickBank, the Billing Descriptors should reduce the chargeback rate rather than exacerbate the problem. When it comes to information... more is almost always better.
            Signature

            Sid Hale
            Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10336578].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author MTVida
      Speaking as an affiliate who's promoted Clickbank products for the last 5 years, I have to say that I agree with the general seniment of vendos and fellow affiliates on this thread.

      Although I find it feasible that Clickbank is being pressured by the CC companis to reduce chargebacks, I just can't buy the line of reasoning that that's what's driving the change with the whole banner BS.

      The most telling aspect of everything is the fact that the changes will have (and already are having) a negative impact on affiliates and venders, while Clickbank will obviously reap the benefits. A good number of other, more effective and less intrusive ideas have been talked about on this very thread. All that, combined with Clickbank laughably inadequate response, makes it hard to take anything they say at face value at this point.

      Naturally vendors and affiliates are going to be upset. Lowered conversion rates that result from the banner are only the tip of the iceburg. The banner leak to their marketplace essentially means that Clickbank will benefit at the expense of our advertizing efforts. Had Clickbank offered something like a commission on any product that a customer buys through the marketplace, their motives might not be so suspect.

      Clickbank has a long way to go to rebuild our trust in them. Pulling the wool over their business partner's eyes is not a long term strategy for success. They need to change their tactics and work for a solution that benefits (or at least does minimal harm to) all parties involved. If they don't this is garunteed to blow up spectacularly.

      For my part, I'm contacting all the main venders I promote asking about their plans and if they'll be switching platforms.

      It's not too late for Clickbank to right their ship, but the storm clouds are fast approaching.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10335134].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author austria
        Banned
        Originally Posted by MTVida View Post

        Speaking as an affiliate who's promoted Clickbank products for the last 5 years, I have to say that I agree with the general seniment of vendos and fellow affiliates on this thread.

        Naturally vendors and affiliates are going to be upset. Lowered conversion rates that result from the banner are only the tip of the iceburg. The banner leak to their marketplace essentially means that Clickbank will benefit at the expense of our advertizing efforts. Had Clickbank offered something like a commission on any product that a customer buys through the marketplace, their motives might not be so suspect.

        Clickbank has a long way to go to rebuild our trust in them. Pulling the wool over their business partner's eyes is not a long term strategy for success. They need to change their tactics and work for a solution that benefits (or at least does minimal harm to) all parties involved. If they don't this is garunteed to blow up spectacularly.

        For my part, I'm contacting all the main venders I promote asking about their plans and if they'll be switching platforms.
        I would like to ask Clickbank why this month, the same product on which I had a EPC of 0.39 $, on the same U.S. traffic, dropped to only 0.02 $ EPC

        Are there more changes that we are not told about yet ?
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10342935].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author MTVida
          Originally Posted by austria View Post

          I would like to ask Clickbank why this month, the same product on which I had a EPC of 0.39 $, on the same U.S. traffic, dropped to only 0.02 $ EPC

          Are there more changes that we are not told about yet ?
          I suspect there may be. I was promoting a product myself that had a good conversion rate that seemed to die toward the end of last month.

          Check your product's stats at cbgraph.com (use the free version). Some of the best products I've been promoting have had a drop off in gravity recently...
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10343592].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author greenbay92
            Originally Posted by MTVida View Post

            I was promoting a product myself that had a good conversion rate that seemed to die toward the end of last month.

            Check your product's stats at cbgraph.com (use the free version). Some of the best products I've been promoting have had a drop off in gravity recently...
            Exactly same issue here too.

            My best product on CB now converts at a fraction of what it used to in the past 6 years. It's an evergreen product with solid conversions across the board for years... Except "something" happened toward the end of last month (coinciding with the banner), and the same product now converts at a ridiculous one-fifth of what it normal does. More reason to suspect that there's more to the backend changes at CB than simply a banner.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10344048].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Wayne
              If you go to their consumer marketplace on the home page (not the affiliate marketplace) notice they did not include the Betting Systems category. Will these be the next products getting dumped??
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10344972].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author nicheblogger75
    I just got the email from Clickbank. They ditched their crappy idea and made a pretty good apology.

    I'm fine with them now. In fact, I'll even give them props for doing the right thing.

    It seems they have now come up with a pretty solid plan to appease both the credit card companies and their vendors/affiliates.

    I'm cool with them again, even though I probably still won't promote their products too much because of the insane refunds, but at least I can say they are a solid company who in then end, did right by the people who made them what they are today.

    Good on ya Clickbank.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10336510].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author stackman
      Originally Posted by nicheblogger75 View Post

      I just got the email from Clickbank.
      It seems they have now come up with a pretty solid plan to appease both the credit card companies and their vendors/affiliates.
      What solid plan? They won't announce anything until the 27th. I'm not buying the "feel good" email and I'll have no Clickbank banner on my sales page.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10336647].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author TheWebGuy
    I just saw this post written in a facebook group and this is still not a good solution guys...
    -----------------------------------------------------------

    The banners are still part of this though. :/ Maybe a little smaller but still, people will learn to recognize webpages with the word "Clickbank" at the top of the page as a sales pitch. This kills the whole helpful presentation which turns into a delayed sales pitch and delayed buy now button (which is what most vendors do). Especially over time (and with as much traffic as affiliates/vendors/and media buyers run through Clickbank offers) the public will know to immediately close their page because it's a sales pitch.

    I totally understand that they need people to recognize who they are b/c they are collecting payment but this should be done when they are checking out! Or when the buy now button appears. For example have "Secure Payments By Clickbank" pop up too right next to the buy now button.

    Then have Clickbank on the email receipts, download pages, etc.

    If the banners are still part of this ...this is no victory guys. It's better than it was but this is terrible for business. I feel like there is a logical solution to this (closer to what I wrote above) - but a banner that says Clickbank ("Click" and "Bank" - people are going to wonder what in the world that is and it may scare them during the sales presentation) PLUS people will also learn to recognize it's a sales pitch and immediately leave or put their guards up. Instead, once it's time for payment, that's when we should make it abundantly clear with CB logo or something that says "secure payments by Clickbank" next to the buy now button (or part of it) ...but not a header on our sales page from the start.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10336755].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      Originally Posted by TheWebGuy View Post

      I just saw this post written in a facebook group and this is still not a good solution guys...

      The banners are still part of this though. :/ Maybe a little smaller but still, people will learn to recognize webpages with the word "Clickbank" at the top of the page as a sales pitch. This kills the whole helpful presentation which turns into a delayed sales pitch and delayed buy now button (which is what most vendors do). Especially over time (and with as much traffic as affiliates/vendors/and media buyers run through Clickbank offers) the public will know to immediately close their page because it's a sales pitch.

      Essentially, I agree. I don't agree with your reasons. Surely everyone recognizes a sales pitch regardless of a ClickBank header anyway, and at some point, you've got to ask for the sale.

      But... the ClickBank header should be totally eliminated from their plans.

      I totally understand that they need people to recognize who they are b/c they are collecting payment but this should be done when they are checking out! Or when the buy now button appears. For example have "Secure Payments By Clickbank" pop up too right next to the buy now button.
      The "buy now" button is the earliest that any reference should be made to ClickBank (much better than the "proposed" header), but I really don't see any reason that the order confirmation page couldn't be the first exposure to ClickBank (i.e where the payment method is collected). That is their page anyway, and they have full control over the look and feel of that page! They are welcome to put their header on that page
      Signature

      Sid Hale
      Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10336823].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author stackman
    I offer my customers multiple ways to pay for my product on my sales page. Why would I want a Clickbank banner on that page? I don't have Amazon banners on the pages that sell Amazon products. I don't have eBay banners on the pages that sell eBay products.

    I think Clickbank has misinterpreted CC companies' requirements and has used it as an excuse for promoting their own cause. I have removed my Clickbank payment option and will never put it back. They can make all the apologies they want. Their motives have been clear since the beginning of this mess.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10337112].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      This response from ClickBank is somewhat painful to read.

      Look how smooth and manipulative it is. The handshake graphic. The use of cutesy terminology like "fail." The patronizing emotional language in the opening lines.

      This is coming from a company that essentially just tried to pull a hostile takeover on all of their customers' websites.

      After having had a chance to thoroughly read and analyze their statement, here are my specific thoughts:

      - The marketplace link being gone is one problem eliminated, provided it stays that way.

      - The redirect from the vendors' websites to ClickBank URLs being gone is another problem eliminated, again provided it stays that way.

      - The fact that they tried to do these things in the first place is unacceptable.

      - The continued insistence that their branding be applied to every vendor's website is unacceptable. I would love to know how credit card guidelines suddenly (and conveniently) "require" them to do this, after ten years of not doing it... right when ClickBank is trying to promote their brand as a retail destination in the minds of consumers. I'm just not buying it.

      - If their proposed branding comes in the form of any kind of header or graphics at the top of our website, or any other type of invasive branding, that is a complete and total deal breaker. No self-respecting vendor or affiliate will comply with that. The only ones who will accept it are vendors and affiliates who have no choice but to use ClickBank, and most of us do have a choice.

      - A small ClickBank graphic under the payment button which says something like "Secure Payments by ClickBank" would be the only remotely acceptable (or remotely believable as being necessary) form of ClickBank branding I can envision. And I doubt that's even really necessary, considering the ClickBank branding that exists on the order page. But I don't think they would be satisfied with that anyway, because it's clear to me that their intentions are more about self-promotion than anything else.

      To sum up, I think this is a company that made a brazen power play and got caught with their pants down. Their customer base turned out to be smarter than they thought, and it became a PR nightmare. Now they are doing damage control, while at the same time trying to figure out what elements of their scheme they might still be able to get away with.

      In other words, they haven't really learned their lesson. I suspect that they'll still try to force a ClickBank header of some kind onto all of their customers' websites. And the marketplace link will definitely be back after they get their foot in the door with the header.

      I don't think they have accepted the obvious reality yet that we, their customers, are not going to allow them to force their branding onto our websites for their own benefit.

      It will be interesting to see how this plays out and what happens to ClickBank as a company.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10337166].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        - A small ClickBank graphic under the payment button which says something like "Secure Payments by ClickBank" would be the only remotely acceptable (or remotely believable as being necessary) form of ClickBank branding I can envision.
        Note though that since July 2012 ClickBank have required that their disclaimer is put on their Pitch Pages(s) and Thank You pages, viz

        ClickBank is the retailer of products on this site. CLICKBANK® is a registered trademark of Click Sales, Inc., a Delaware corporation located at 917 S. Lusk Street, Suite 200, Boise Idaho, 83706, USA and used by permission. ClickBank's role as retailer does not constitute an endorsement, approval or review of these products or any claim, statement or opinion used in promotion of these products.

        .
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10337337].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
          Originally Posted by Harvey Segal View Post

          Note though that since July 2012 ClickBank have required that their disclaimer is put on their Pitch Pages(s) and Thank You pages, viz

          ClickBank is the retailer of products on this site. CLICKBANK® is a registered trademark of Click Sales, Inc., a Delaware corporation located at 917 S. Lusk Street, Suite 200, Boise Idaho, 83706, USA and used by permission. ClickBank's role as retailer does not constitute an endorsement, approval or review of these products or any claim, statement or opinion used in promotion of these products.

          .
          My understanding is that this text is added by javascript which the vendor must insert in his pages.

          I also understand that there was planned to be a 2 stage introduction of this text. first to new/newer vendors and then to older vendors.

          I know the new vendors were required to add it, but as far as i know, older vendors were going to be asked to add it later later - but cb seems to have forgot about them. older vendors (some older Vendors?) have not got access to the js.

          Update (thanks Harvey): it's not JS and some other details aren't quite there - see Harvey's post below - but the key point is the text is only on newer CB products.
          Signature
          ClickBank Vendor?
          - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
          - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
          - Killer Graphics for Your Site
          SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10337403].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
            Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

            My understanding is that this text is added by javascript which the vendor must insert in his pages.
            I am not aware that a js was ever provided (see link below)
            Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

            I also understand that there was planned to be a 2 stage introduction of this text. first to new/newer vendors and then to older vendors.
            More accurately, vendor's new products then their older ones.

            Here is the information
            https://support.clickbank.com/entrie...ed-Disclaimers

            .
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10337452].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
          Originally Posted by Harvey Segal View Post

          Note though that since July 2012 ClickBank have required that their disclaimer is put on their Pitch Pages(s) and Thank You pages, viz

          ClickBank is the retailer of products on this site. CLICKBANK® is a registered trademark of Click Sales, Inc., a Delaware corporation located at 917 S. Lusk Street, Suite 200, Boise Idaho, 83706, USA and used by permission. ClickBank's role as retailer does not constitute an endorsement, approval or review of these products or any claim, statement or opinion used in promotion of these products.

          .
          True, but some small text in the footer is not something we had an issue with. Applying their branding in a way that goes beyond this is more what I was talking about.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10337478].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author MTVida
            Well, giving credit where it's due, it's good to see Clickbank backing away from their initial win/lose approach. It at least has the appearance of a more inclusive and constructive conversation. Of course, the final solution will be the most telling and I think everyone is still waiting to see if will be acceptable.

            Here are a few ideas that Clickbank could use to promote their maretplace. 1. The could place their retargeting pixel on the order form page. 2. The could have a check box on the order form to add cutomers to their email list who want to receive other "more great offers" from Clickbank's marketplace. That way Clickbank could build their lists in a way that few vendors and affiliates would object to.

            In addition to all that's going on, now might be the right time to implement a long overdue name change. I remember when I was just starting out in IM. The first time I sat through a sales pitch for an IM product and arrived at the order form, I saw that my order would be securely processed by "Clickbank". Clickbank?!? I thought. What the hell kind of scammy crap is that? In other words, the name didn't inspire much confidence in me. If they're serious about their whole branding business, they would do well to kick it off with a more professional sounding name.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10338390].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
    I'm sorry to say but this idea of the Clickbank header has just been completely strange and absurd. And their reasoning - credit card company compliance it's just part of that stream of thinking.

    Now that they've gotten "feedback" and this one idea has been taken down by most vendors and affiliates... I can't help but wonder... what other absurd ideas will they hit us up with next?

    I'm very suspicious of this payment link "Clickbank" mention.

    I'd love to work with CB again but will have to wait until all these absurdities come to a halt... and they seem to take time as they make their rounds via their corporate offices... and then some.

    Good luck CB, I'll be waiting to see if I can ever regain your trust.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10337279].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Paleochora
    Why not introduce Clickbank buy buttons?

    Would it be so unacceptable for Clickbank to insist that vendors used one of it's own payment buttons if it provided a good number of design options that would fit most site designs? They could include some discrete Clickbank branding on the button making sure that the buyer was aware of the sales portal.

    Nobody really objects to putting Warrior Plus buttons (since they are now better designed) JVZoo buttons or Zaxaa buttons on their pages - so why not Clickbank?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10337356].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
    On a general point, cb became success by empowering vendors. The more vendors sell, the more cb earns, and the more new vendors cb can attract, earning cb yet more.

    It will be really disappointing if cb switches to a strategy of trying to extract from vendors (whether money directly, traffic, customer loyalty, etc.). such a strategy may generate a short term blip in revenue, but ultimately will ruin them - end customers see themselves as buying solutions from the vendor, and have no loyalty to cb, so will follow the vendors - and vendors can and will go to another platform if they feel exploited.
    Signature
    ClickBank Vendor?
    - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
    - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
    - Killer Graphics for Your Site
    SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10337436].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author leilani
    As of yesterday,Ray Morris, CEO of Clickbank issued an email communication announcing that they will not be using their logo on a vendor's website. In fact, it was an apology for not thinking through the process from every angle.

    Did anyone else get that email?

    Here's the beginning of the communication:

    A letter from ClickBank's CEO
    We owe you an explanation

    Hi,

    You Were Right!

    Anger. Frustration. Confusion. Your feedback resonated with us loud and clear, and ClickBank has never been more humbled than by your honest and raw comments in response to our recent platform changes. For that, we owe you both an apology and an explanation.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10339309].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
    Originally Posted by leilani View Post

    As of yesterday,Ray Morris, CEO of Clickbank issued an email communication announcing that they will not be using their logo on a vendor's website. In fact, it was an apology for not thinking through the process from every angle.

    Did anyone else get that email?
    Yep - in fact, we've been discussing it for the past 2 days (apparently your email delivery was a little slow).

    Start reading this thread from here...
    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...l#post10336436
    Signature

    Sid Hale
    Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10340088].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    I also received the notification from ClickBank that this policy is no longer in place; there will be no iframe on your landing pages.

    The sky is not falling.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10340090].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author 24INVEST
    Hi *****,

    You Were Right!

    Anger. Frustration. Confusion. Your feedback resonated with us loud and clear, and ClickBank has never been more humbled than by your honest and raw comments in response to our recent platform changes. For that, we owe you both an apology and an explanation.

    Here's What We Should Have Told You

    Over the years, we've prioritized you over our card brand partners. Truth is ClickBank has supported the wishes of our vendors and affiliates to decrease the presence of our branding in your sales flow.

    The Card Brands Don't Like This

    Our card brand partners have established guidelines around how to conduct business as an internet retailer. Frankly, we went too far in ignoring their rules. (To learn more about these rules and the differences between payment processing, internet retailers and services providers, please click here.)

    And We Reacted Too Quickly

    In an attempt to address the branding rules in accordance with the card brand guidelines, we implemented our initial version of the "Always on Shopping Portal." Without question, our communication and implementation around this change was not done in a manner that was acceptable to you, or to what we expect from ourselves in serving you, our clients.

    We are truly sorry for failing to do this in a more thoughtful way. We've listened to your feedback and are working with top vendors and affiliates in order to move forward.

    ClickBank's Merchant Account Remains Impenetrable & Our Future Rock Solid

    We've heard the rumors and need to set the record straight. Although we reacted quickly (too quickly) to card brand requests, ClickBank is NOT in danger of losing our merchant account. Facts:
    ClickBank & clients have enjoyed one of our best years ever
    We have removed many of the bad actors in our marketplace, dramatically improving quality of our products and services
    We maintain strong relationships with our card brand and payment partners

    THIS is What Really Happened

    Although the business was NEVER in jeopardy, ClickBank did have some very serious discussions with payment partners around paying attention to their guidelines. Our good standing as a premier internet retailer means adhering to a new set of directives that we must implement on the platform in some form.

    We Need Your Input to Move Forward

    We've heard you loud and clear and understand the recent changes are unacceptable to you and your business. So now we need your help. We have been actively receiving feedback and working closely with our largest vendors and affiliates on the best options for moving forward. We are changing our communication plan from tight-lipped to transparent.

    TODAY WE CAN GUARANTEE THIS:


    The Branded ClickBank iFrames are Gone and Won't Be Back

    This means that your Pitch Page will NOT be redirected to a shop.clickbank.net domain. It will remain under your own URL no matter where the traffic originates.

    However, We Must Retain ClickBank Branding on Some Pages

    At the directive of our card brand partners, we must show customers the ClickBank logo on any page that has a pay link. We're now dedicated to doing this in a way that is acceptable to you. We hosted initial design discussions with several key vendors and affiliates this week and all indications are that we're on the right track. We expect beta versions to be ready around the 27th of October. We will be clearly communicating these changes with you prior to implementation.

    The Marketplace Link is Also Gone

    As a direct result of your feedback we will not create links where we can't support attribution for vendors and affiliates. We have no current plans to revisit this item.

    And There's More We Need to Do

    There are still more changes we must make, and we'll need your help and input along the way:

    1. New End-Customer Focused Website: From our website customers must understand who ClickBank is and what type of products we sell. We've changed our website accordingly, now featuring products on our platform.
    2. Content Delivery: We need to support content delivery to customers, when possible. This should have an added benefit of taking the technical support burden off of vendors for products, like e-books, where the consumer may not understand how to download the product or if resending download links is necessary.
    3. Customer Account Support: Repeat customers will be able to create an account to store their purchase history and payment information. This comes with an added benefit of faster checkout for repeat customers and serves an ongoing request from vendors.

    We Need Beta Participants That Can Help Us Nail It

    Seriously, we need real deal vendors to test this stuff out and give us a piece of your mind. If you are open to working with us on the early iterations of our logo, customer account feature and/or content delivery functions, let us know here.

    As a beta tester you'll be encouraged to post or blog about your experiences so that we're maintaining unbiased feedback and transparency. We anticipate a large and diverse group of beta testers to ensure that we are adequately representing all viewpoints and use cases.

    Above All, Remember This

    The last thing we want to do is jeopardize your business, reduce your conversions or piss off our clients. Why? For us, that's business suicide.

    Our sole purpose as an internet retailer is to make performance marketers successful. BUT we must do so by upholding our commitments to our card brand partners whose primary concern the safety of end consumers.

    We know now that we can't do this alone. And we're looking to you to help us maintain our commitments to you, our card brand partners and end consumers in a way that is acceptable, meaningful and profitable for all of us.
    Thank you Clickbank for your informal response to our "raw comments".

    All warriors, Clickbank has said that they have a few problems, however, I think we all can agree that they have a f**kton of problems. But let's be realistic here. Clickbank has always been the number one platform for affiliates and vendors(sounds like a naked man running around on a parking lot, call it merchants). Clickbank has helped a lot of people in the last years to make an income online. They absolutely deserve some credit. But things change over the years, payment partners get on your path, want things from you, you can't give them. Clickbank has problems and instead of leaving Clickbank with it's problems, i think it's more important and humane to help Clickbank solve these problems, get them on the right track again.

    All merchant who got their message, be a leader, get in contact with Clickbank for their beta version. JUST TALK WITH THEM! Let's make clickbank the number 1 partner to team up with again. I think we can agree that it's important to maintain the quality and name of CB!
    Signature
    How Low Is Your Interest At Your Local Bank?

    You Know There Is More Possible Online, Right?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10341590].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      Originally Posted by 24INVEST View Post

      Thank you Clickbank for your informal response to our "raw comments".

      All warriors, Clickbank has said that they have a few problems, however, I think we all can agree that they have a f**kton of problems. But let's be realistic here. Clickbank has always been the number one platform for affiliates and vendors(sounds like a naked man running around on a parking lot, call it merchants). Clickbank has helped a lot of people in the last years to make an income online. They absolutely deserve some credit. But things change over the years, payment partners get on your path, want things from you, you can't give them. Clickbank has problems and instead of leaving Clickbank with it's problems, i think it's more important and humane to help Clickbank solve these problems, get them on the right track again.

      All merchant who got their message, be a leader, get in contact with Clickbank for their beta version. JUST TALK WITH THEM! Let's make clickbank the number 1 partner to team up with again. I think we can agree that it's important to maintain the quality and name of CB!
      Unfortunately, whatever they were in the past, they are under new management and are now operating in a predatory manner. This is a company that just tried to hijack all of their customers' websites. And even after the outrage forced them to give up on some aspects of their plot, they are still trying to force everyone to put the ClickBank brand on their websites against their will.

      This is not a company that can be trusted, and I don't think I am alone in saying that I have no interest in helping them maintain their standing in our industry.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10341649].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author 24INVEST
        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        Unfortunately, whatever they were in the past, they are under new management and are now operating in a predatory manner. This is a company that just tried to hijack all of their customers' websites. And even after the outrage forced them to give up on some aspects of their plot, they are still trying to force everyone to put the ClickBank brand on their websites against their will.

        This is not a company that can be trusted, and I don't think I am alone in saying that I have no interest in helping them maintain their standing in our industry.
        Of course they need to brand their logo on the websites. It's what the payment companies want. And you'll get the same at JVzoo and other affiliate platforms in a while. We have to accept the fact that things change, whether we like it or not. But is your(speaking to all warriors here) choice to do something with it. Maybe you can influence Clickbank to a solution most merchants and affiliates like.

        It doesn't take away the fact l just as pissed off about this anymore then you are.
        I mean they literally F**cked things up badly. But they know that too. We will see how they are going to restore faith in their business. If they think "in time it will be forgotten" they are pretty much wrong.

        Now, If you have your products at Clickbank and don't want to many sales or affiliates. Just take advantage of their "beta" thing and make your opinion count. If you're not doing it for Clickbank, then do it for the sake of all affiliates!
        Signature
        How Low Is Your Interest At Your Local Bank?

        You Know There Is More Possible Online, Right?
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10341821].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
          Originally Posted by 24INVEST View Post

          Of course they need to brand their logo on the websites. It's what the payment companies want.
          Then they need to take it up with their "payment companies".

          Sunbeam bread (a vendor) doesn't label their bread trucks with the Walmart (a retailer) logo. Nor does any of Walmart's other product vendors.

          Compelling their product suppliers to brand their own advertising messages (i.e. sales pages) with their store name is not (cannot be) forced on any retailer. If Clickbank finds itself in this position, they need to be addressing the failures in their business model that led their "payment companies" to insist on this level of branding - NOT imposing ridiculous (and truly unique) demands on their product suppliers.

          And you'll get the same at JVzoo and other affiliate platforms in a while.
          No you won't. For starters, JVZoo is NOT a retailer.

          Maybe you can influence Clickbank to a solution most merchants and affiliates like.
          There are currently 8 pages in this thread alone that should serve that purpose.

          You can lead a horse to water... but you can't make it drink.

          Now, If you have your products at Clickbank and don't want to many sales or affiliates. Just take advantage of their "beta" thing and make your opinion count. If you're not doing it for Clickbank, then do it for the sake of all affiliates!
          ANY implementation of the ClickBank Marketplace will negatively impact affiliates.

          For years, Clickbank has enjoyed the benefit of being a "retailer" with no advertising budget, little to no financial exposure (because they simply refund any sale on request), no concern for search engine rankings, and an affiliate force that was paid by someone else (the vendors).

          Now they have decided to adopt a marketing strategy that is no longer dependent on affiliates. Affiliate referrals will still be welcome, but the marketplace and increased branding is intended to allow them to succeed with/without any affiliate referrals. Their new customer oriented marketplace doesn't even have to come close to the success levels of Walmart or Amazon to still far exceed their current sales performance and they will still make as much or more money because their revenue comes from the merchant as a percentage of all sales.
          Signature

          Sid Hale
          Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10341959].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
          Originally Posted by 24INVEST View Post

          Of course they need to brand their logo on the websites. It's what the payment companies want.
          Says who?

          If you believe a word ClickBank tells you at this point, we are really viewing things very differently.

          Think about it for a second. ClickBank also tried to put a link to their marketplace at the top of every vendor's website, and redirect every vendor's website URL to a ClickBank URL... according to them it was not to steal traffic from their vendors and affiliates, but because the payment companies were making them do it.

          Now, after seeing that their customers didn't believe them and weren't going to allow it, they've abandoned those parts of their plan. They're not going to do those things. But wait, I thought the payment companies were making them do it?

          And you'll get the same at JVzoo and other affiliate platforms in a while.
          This is really just conjecture.

          We have to accept the fact that things change, whether we like it or not. But is your(speaking to all warriors here) choice to do something with it. Maybe you can influence Clickbank to a solution most merchants and affiliates like.
          I don't think there is actually a problem that requires a solution. I think ClickBank wants to become a "global internet retailer with 200,000,000 customers" as they say on their website and social media, and this is the extremely unethical way in which they are trying to accomplish that.

          It doesn't take away the fact l just as pissed off about this anymore then you are.
          I mean they literally F**cked things up badly. But they know that too.
          I think the failure in their minds is the fact that they didn't get away with everything they have been trying to do. I don't think they regret their actual immoral behavior for a second. And let's remember that they are still trying to do a large part of it, even now.

          We will see how they are going to restore faith in their business. If they think "in time it will be forgotten" they are pretty much wrong.
          I agree completely.

          Now, If you have your products at Clickbank and don't want to many sales or affiliates. Just take advantage of their "beta" thing and make your opinion count.
          I'm not going to help them figure out how they can get away with abusing and lying to their customers. They need to abandon this scheme in its entirety.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10342158].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author agmccall
    I think at this point many of us have lost faith in Clickbank. They should be participating in this thread and other places that this is being discussed on a daily basis, but they are absent.

    At this point they can not be trusted as it has become obvious that they think we are all stupid.

    Savvy marketers, I am sure, will be contacting vendors on clickbank and explaining what is happening from the marketers/affiliates point of view and offer to help them migrate to another platform.

    Once the vendors, not the ones that are marketers they already know, find out what the implications of these changes are will want to move to another platform. Alot of vendors are just people with a good idea for a how-to product and are not really marketers, so they do not really see what is happening as a bad thing.

    I really hope that clickbank will keep things as is, but I think the decision has been made and they are now going to try and just slip little things in here and there until they reach their ends.

    As an affiliate and not a vendor I will continue to promote products as long as there is no banner or links off the sales page.

    al
    Signature

    "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10344976].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author jvaldes
    I spent some time trying to figure out what that CEO letter actually meant... I think I managed to get it translated:


    An Implementation Fail and Our Commitment to Trying To Get Away With It
    From the desk of [ENTER CEO OF THE WEEK HERE], ClickBank CEO

    You Were Right

    Anger. Frustration. Confusion. Your feedback came through loud and clear. You might think we were humbled by your honest and raw comments in response to our recent platform changes. But really, we're just upset that some people were paying attention and that we didn't get away with it. So this time we're gonna try an explanation before we pull the wool over your eyes again.

    Here's What We Should Have Told You

    Over the years, the management at ClickBank has been really crappy...and it's just gotten worse. No one here really understands how the company generates revenue or the financial systems involved. Orders come in, we cut some checks to vendors and affiliates and hold onto the rest. To many of us here, it's magical. Hell...most of us haven't had to really work since around late 2002.

    The Card Brands Don't Like This

    Our card brand partners run actual businesses. It turns out they actually pay attention to how we make our money--even though we clearly haven't. They reminded us that we're an internet retailer, not a payment processor. Some of us had no idea there was even a difference! They spent hours trying to get us to understand this. Click here to see what they were trying to drill into our thick skulls.

    We Actually Developed Something Quickly!

    No matter what you think, you have to admire how quickly we've been working. I mean this scared us into action! It takes us years to do anything around here. We just recently launched a shopping cart! And it's 2015! I know the IFRAME thing didn't work well--and it severely hurt our business and reputation--but I am proud of how this team was able to roll this out so quickly. And retract it in only a day! So fast!

    ClickBank's Merchant Account Remains Exceptional & Our Future Is Rock Solid

    We've heard the rumors and need to set the record straight. That's why we carefully chose the words in that subhead above:
    • "Exceptional". As in unusual, not typical, or does not follow a rule. Like how our credit card partners take exception to how we have been running our business.
    • "Future". As in time still to come even though we have no idea how long that will be.
    • "Rock Solid". We're not thinking granite here. More like sandstone or shale. You know...rocks that look solid but don't hold up well under pressure.

    THIS is What Really Happened

    We thought we could get away with just calling ourselves a "retailer". I mean...you know we're not really a retailer. Retailers actually sell things and we're just the guy in the middle that takes the money and then parses it out. But our credit card partners didn't think a new label was good enough. They had some very direct conversations with us that got us really worried. We knew we had to find a way to make us look more like a retailer quickly. Someone suggested we make all vendors add some javascript to their own sites that would inject an IFRAME. Not only that, but we could hijack every affiliate link and insert the IFRAME there too. It seemed genius! It would make every product we sold "look" like it was hosted by ClickBank. And, because it used web technologies from the late 1990s, our development team would actually have the skills to pull it off!

    But we had no idea you guys would notice. Keep in mind that we don't even really know how we make money. Vendors sign up and start selling...and money appears in our merchant account! All of the phone calls and emails we got were complaining about poor conversion rates and EPC...we didn't even know what those terms mean! You guys told us that if we did it this way, we'd all stop making money! Thank goodness we have our vendors to explain to us what it means to be an internet retailer.

    So we quickly put the brakes on the IFRAME thing. We even tried calling a "test" after the fact hoping you guys would think that we actually run tests before we roll out huge changes that will impact everyone's revenue stream. But you guys saw through that too.

    We Need Your Input to Move Forward

    If we've learned anything these past few weeks, it's that we don't know how to run our own business. Our credit card partners have to remind us that we ARE an internet retailer. Our vendors have to explain to us the concepts we should know to BE an internet retailer. We've heard you loud and clear! And since we need to become an internet retailer, we want you to explain to us what we need to do.

    We welcome your suggestions into how we can better funnel your traffic to our own servers and what we can do to best build our online brand so people think they're buying from us and not you.

    TODAY WE CAN GUARANTEE THIS:

    The Branded ClickBank iFrames are Gone and Won't Be Back

    Well...they're not really gone. Obviously we can flick this switch whenever we want to, but we've turned it off for now. But remember...we can do whatever we want with those hoplinks. They're ours. We could even Rickroll every click!

    However, We Must Retain ClickBank Branding on Some Pages

    At the directive of our card brand partners, we're scrambling to find new ways to make us look like a retailer. We must show your...I mean OUR...customers the ClickBank logo on any page that has a pay link. While we won't do this with an IFRAME, we're working on even sneakier ways to force this on you now. We will be clearly communicating these changes with you prior to implementation because you'll probably need to install some nasty javascript everywhere.

    The Marketplace Link is Also Gone

    As a direct result of your feedback, we will not create links where we can't support attribution for vendors and affiliates. We tried to get away with it...but you guys noticed. Shucks.

    And There's More We Need to Do

    There are still more changes we must make, and we'll need your help and input along the way:
    1. New End-Customer Focused Website: Like I said earlier, please help us look like an internet retailer. Please?!? We really don't know how...and it seems like our own website would be a good place to start.
    2. Content Delivery: You know how we showed you that we could hijack your pitch pages and hoplinks? Well...we want to have that same capability with the actual products you sell. Oh...sorry...that we sell. It'll be great. Trust us!
    3. Customer Account Support: Repeat customers will be able to create an account to store their purchase history and payment information. This will be great for us once we've made everyone think they're buying from us and not you.

    We Need Beta Participants That Can Help Us Nail It

    Seriously, we need real deal vendors to test this stuff out and give us a piece of their mind. If you haven't abandoned us yet, we really need help running our own business. We won't pay you for helping us. But if you're not leaving ClickBank and you rely on us to make money, you're kinda trapped. Am I right? Might as well chip in.

    Above All, Remember This

    The last thing we want to do is jeopardize your business, reduce your conversions or upset you. Unfortunately, that's always the first thing we think of!

    Our sole purpose as an internet retailer is to make performance marketers successful. And when you think about it, that's exactly what we've done for those that have left or are leaving ClickBank. You certainly aren't going to be successful with us anymore. (But seriously. We hope you'll stay despite all of the ominous signs.)

    We know now that we can't do this alone. I mean...that's what got us into this mess. Seriously. An IFRAME. That's what we came up with by ourselves. We need help.

    We welcome your input and our lines of communication are open. Send us a FAX anytime!

    Sincerely,
    [CEO OF THE WEEK]
    ClickBank CEO
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10345792].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      Originally Posted by jvaldes View Post

      I spent some time trying to figure out what that CEO letter actually meant... I think I managed to get it translated:
      That was hilarious! You really nailed it. The only part I disagree with is the premise that the card brands are partly forcing their hand. I really think that has nothing to do with it. But I'm not going to let that get in the way of a good laugh.

      Well done!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10346576].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
    See this thread:
    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ne-prison.html

    Originally Posted by Star Man View Post

    His Last Activity: 20th October 2015 06:40 PM
    So he's lurking or running his scam via PM.

    Oh, I see, you seemed to be OK with this guy scamming people in the past. And still protecting him? Go figure.
    http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...ml#post2621508
    The free WSO promotes a website called 1000poundperday.com

    If you go to the main page of that domain there's an Add to Cart button

    Click it, and it sends you to a live ClickBank order form for the product.

    ClickBank apparently need a banner on every vendor's site to reduce charge-backs, it's the only way forward.... but yet they still allow like this?????
    Signature
    ClickBank Vendor?
    - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
    - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
    - Killer Graphics for Your Site
    SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10349444].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author johnbibikaki
    Why I don't really get, if they only wanted to brand themselves, is why on earth did they also put a link to the marketplace?
    Why on earth would you include such a big, fat leak in a BIG, FLOATING HEADER? The only way to make this leak even bigger would have been to put a picture of Ronald McDonald, aiming at the "Marketplace" button and saying "Click here, and you'll get a free hamburger from us."
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10349723].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
      Maybe Clickspank needs to get a WSO or one of their own hosted products that covers reputation management.
      Signature

      "May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10349753].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author agmccall
        Originally Posted by Jill Carpenter View Post

        Maybe Clickspank needs to get a WSO or one of their own hosted products that covers reputation management.
        I am sure they will be putting together a committee and focus group to recommend the best one, but will probably just end up buying some reputation management PLR written in broken english, then they will start posting it as is

        al
        Signature

        "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10353628].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      Originally Posted by johnbibikaki View Post

      Why I don't really get, if they only wanted to brand themselves, is why on earth did they also put a link to the marketplace?
      Why on earth would you include such a big, fat leak in a BIG, FLOATING HEADER? The only way to make this leak even bigger would have been to put a picture of Ronald McDonald, aiming at the "Marketplace" button and saying "Click here, and you'll get a free hamburger from us."
      What they want is to be a "global internet retailer with 200,000,000 customers" like they're saying now on their website and social media. Forcing us to put their brand on our websites and stealing our traffic with links to their "marketplace" would be quite helpful, wouldn't it?

      Fortunately, enough people saw what they were doing and they had to retreat a little bit. But don't think for a second that they've given up on a full-scale takeover of all of their customers' websites. I am certain they still have that goal in mind, and are just doing it in incremental stages now.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10356619].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author nolan59
        not sure how many people got this, but every single one of my CB account received one:

        Subject: Nolan, you've been hand selected to Beta test

        Last week, we addressed our recent platform implementation fail and our commitment to earning your trust back. In an effort to continue on the path of collaboration and transparency, we have assembled an exclusive list of beta testers to provide feedback on some of our brand new platform features. YOU HAVE BEEN SELECTED

        Here's what you can expect as a member of our small and trusted Beta test group:
        • Become the first of 5 million + clients to sample these new features
        • Obtain unprecedented one-on-one time with ClickBank representatives to personally guide you through implementation and maximize effectiveness and benefit to you
        • Gain direct access to the ClickBank's Executive Team to provide unbiased and transparent feedback
        • Contribute to current and future developments on the ClickBank platform
        THESE FEATURES WILL HAVE MAJOR IMPACT ON YOUR BUSINESS As a Beta tester, you will gain exclusive access to the following features:

        New FEATURES


        New Content Delivery System

        Designed to save you time and money while increasing delivery reliability, we'll host your content for FREE.
        Newly Developed ClickBank Trust Badge

        Designed to increase customers' confidence and security and reduce refunds by increasing Internet Retailer transparency throughout the purchasing process.
        We thank you for your quality and performance on ClickBank and are eager to hear your feedback on new developments moving forward. Although we've hand selected our Beta test group, SPACE IS LIMITED. Email us at email@removed.forprivacy to secure your spot now.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10356878].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
          Originally Posted by nolan59 View Post

          not sure how many people got this, but every single one of my CB account received one:
          I assume that ONLY vendor accounts were selected to receive this email, as the "new features" aren't applicable to affiliates, at all.

          New FEATURES


          New Content Delivery System

          Designed to save you time and money while increasing delivery reliability, we'll host your content for FREE.

          Newly Developed ClickBank Trust Badge

          Designed to increase customers' confidence and security and reduce refunds by increasing Internet Retailer transparency throughout the purchasing process.
          We thank you for your quality and performance on ClickBank and are eager to hear your feedback on new developments moving forward. Although we've hand selected our Beta test group, SPACE IS LIMITED. Email us at email@removed.forprivacy to secure your spot now.
          The first feature is a "nice to have", but product delivery (which is what I assume they mean by "content") has really never been a huge issued for vendors. Smaller files are easily hosted on their own sites, and there are already many very professional content delivery sites available for larger files, video streaming, etc.

          The second feature is a non-starter until they first achieve customer confidence in their own brand, which heretofore has been virtually non-existent.

          Let's face it... a lot of their customers (according to them) were refunding because they didn't recognize the Clickbank name on their credit card statement. ::rolleyes::

          So how does the presence of an unknown brand in the form of a Trust Badge "increase customers' confidence and security and reduce refunds"??? It doesn't.
          Signature

          Sid Hale
          Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10357366].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author professorrosado
            Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

            ....
            So how does the presence of an unknown brand in the form of a Trust Badge "increase customers' confidence and security and reduce refunds"??? It doesn't.
            In the synergy of the practice throughout all CB vendor interactions.

            Individually, it creates the impetus for the individual vendor to maintain higher standards for their work product - Quality Control.

            They're killing two birds with one stone.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10358017].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
              Originally Posted by professorrosado View Post

              In the synergy of the practice throughout all CB vendor interactions.

              Individually, it creates the impetus for the individual vendor to maintain higher standards for their work product - Quality Control.

              They're killing two birds with one stone.
              What they're doing is forcing product sellers to put the ClickBank brand on their websites against their will. This is according to them, not me - they just word it differently to make it sound less evil. ClickBank has been surprisingly obvious about what they want, and this is a step towards getting it.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10359773].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
                @Jon Patrick:

                We get it, Clickbank is the devil.

                Let it rest.

                Looks to me like you have an agenda to keep damaging Clickbank's reputation.

                Some of us make a living with Clickbank and I actually appreciate that they recognize they made a mistake and are now trying to implement changes more carefully.

                I don't want to switch to another platform. 95% of my income comes from Clickbank affiliates in Latin America.

                And I'm sure that despite what their real intentions are, they also don't want to destroy our businesses as that would be suicide to the company.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10373769].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                  Originally Posted by Pnigro View Post

                  @Jon Patrick:

                  We get it, Clickbank is the devil.
                  They just tried to take over all of their customers' websites, put their own header and branding at the top, and steal their customers' traffic for their own "marketplace." While doing this, they provided justifications that made no sense and insulted all of their customers' intelligence.

                  I am curious to know why you're fine with that?

                  Let it rest.
                  I don't think letting it rest is appropriate, especially considering the fact that they haven't entirely stopped the behavior in question. After the uproar among their customer base, they had to walk away from certain parts of their scheme (for now), but they're still trying to force people to put the ClickBank brand on their websites against their will.

                  Looks to me like you have an agenda to keep damaging Clickbank's reputation.
                  I'm not sure why you feel the need to make it personal. It would be more productive if you were specific about exactly where you disagree with me and the numerous others who have said the same thing.

                  Some of us make a living with Clickbank
                  My company has processed hundreds of thousands of dollars in sales through ClickBank.

                  and I actually appreciate that they recognize they made a mistake and are now trying to implement changes more carefully.
                  They tried to conduct a hostile takeover of all of their customers' websites while providing justifications that don't hold up to any scrutiny. When it didn't work, they "apologized" and let some aspects of their scheme go, while continuing to push others forward. I don't know why you would appreciate that.

                  I don't want to switch to another platform. 95% of my income comes from Clickbank affiliates in Latin America.
                  It doesn't sound like you can switch to another platform, unfortunately. Most of your revenue depends on ClickBank affiliates. I understand your predicament, but many others are not in that position.

                  My company, for example, produces most of our traffic ourselves. We use ClickBank to process payments and manage affiliates, but the sales from ClickBank affiliates (the ones we don't personally recruit) are just a bonus. We can switch, and indeed are switching, to other providers for these services. I think most vendors and affiliates who aren't chained to ClickBank are doing the same.

                  And I'm sure that despite what their real intentions are, they also don't want to destroy our businesses as that would be suicide to the company.
                  If they could get away with it, they would take over your website, put their header and branding at the top, steal your traffic with a link to their "marketplace," and change your domain name to a ClickBank URL.

                  There's no disputing this, because that's exactly what they tried to do.

                  They don't think that would be suicide for them. They think it would be great. That's why they tried to do it.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10376428].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author trevord92
    Got the same email but only for one of my accounts.

    Not high up on my priority list to be a beta tester with a company I've lost faith in but I guess a lot of people will say yes.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10356893].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author agmccall
    I hope some of the Beta testers come here to report what is going on

    al
    Signature

    "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10357291].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author maxsi
    Clickbank is not our friend, simply they do business like we do
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10373780].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author rjd1265
    They retracted this already, which I am sure you know.

    The reason they had to do this was because of the charge backs.

    Too many people who bought stuff with credit cards did not reconize the "CLCKBANK" on their statement. after all if you bought How To Stay Thin you would expect your CC to show this, but it did not.

    Because of this, all major credit cards noticed a mass amount of charge backs and made CB do something about it. (Yes, credit card companies know Clickbank, they do over 25,000 transactions a day, if not more)

    A simple solutions would be for them to put a tiny code on the backend of each vendor site that when a consumer bought our product, it would say "CLCKBANK-YOUR PRODUCT NAME HERE"

    As vendors, we are required to put that the cc reciept will say CLKBANK but who reads that fine print?

    When a consumer buys my proudct, I have my thank you page set up to say this in text, and I also state this in my welcome video.......it helps a ton, but there is always a dumb ass out there.....
    Signature
    You Are A Snowflake
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10373836].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      When you come late to the party, it would behoove you to actually read the conversation so that your suggestions make sense.

      Originally Posted by rjd1265 View Post

      They retracted this already, which I am sure you know.

      The reason they had to do this was because of the charge backs.
      The ClickBank header would NOT reduce chargebacks (read the previous 8 pages of this thread to discover why)

      A simple solutions would be for them to put a tiny code on the backend of each vendor site that when a consumer bought our product, it would say "CLCKBANK-YOUR PRODUCT NAME HERE"
      This was suggested by members here even before ClickBank suspended the header mandate, but their replacement solution does not address the obvious answer you have suggested. I think that's the best solution, but that assumes that their reasons for all of this really is to satisfy the CC companies and reduce chargebacks.

      I think the general consensus around here is that they have a totally different agenda (Always On Shopping Portal).
      Signature

      Sid Hale
      Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10373930].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author rjd1265
        Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

        When you come late to the party, it would behoove you to actually read the conversation so that your suggestions make sense.



        The ClickBank header would NOT reduce chargebacks (read the previous 8 pages of this thread to discover why)



        This was suggested by members here even before ClickBank suspended the header mandate, but their replacement solution does not address the obvious answer you have suggested. I think that's the best solution, but that assumes that their reasons for all of this really is to satisfy the CC companies and reduce chargebacks.

        I think the general consensus around here is that they have a totally different agenda (Always On Shopping Portal).
        to each is own. My comments come straight from my vendor representative.

        I do not have time to read 8 pages of comments of people who do not even have a clickbank vendor account.
        Signature
        You Are A Snowflake
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10375455].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author agmccall
          Originally Posted by rjd1265 View Post

          to each is own. My comments come straight from my vendor representative.

          I do not have time to read 8 pages of comments of people who do not even have a clickbank vendor account.
          Well if you took the time to read these 8 pages you might come to realize that your Rep is probably full of crap. You might also understand what is really going on.

          But hey, if your rep says it then it must be true

          al
          Signature

          "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10375646].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author abdullah Amir
      Originally Posted by rjd1265 View Post

      They retracted this already, which I am sure you know.

      The reason they had to do this was because of the charge backs.

      Too many people who bought stuff with credit cards did not reconize the "CLCKBANK" on their statement. after all if you bought How To Stay Thin you would expect your CC to show this, but it did not.

      Because of this, all major credit cards noticed a mass amount of charge backs and made CB do something about it. (Yes, credit card companies know Clickbank, they do over 25,000 transactions a day, if not more)

      A simple solutions would be for them to put a tiny code on the backend of each vendor site that when a consumer bought our product, it would say "CLCKBANK-YOUR PRODUCT NAME HERE"

      As vendors, we are required to put that the cc reciept will say CLKBANK but who reads that fine print?

      When a consumer buys my proudct, I have my thank you page set up to say this in text, and I also state this in my welcome video.......it helps a ton, but there is always a dumb ass out there.....

      well , you mean now every thing is ok cause last 15 days i make 0 sale .

      can i ask you . if i need update my aff.link to new one , or the old one still working after these changes .. ?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10375527].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author rjd1265
        Originally Posted by abdullah Amir View Post

        well , you mean now every thing is ok cause last 15 days i make 0 sale .

        can i ask you . if i need update my aff.link to new one , or the old one still working after these changes .. ?

        I would update the link just in case, to be safe
        Signature
        You Are A Snowflake
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10380101].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author sansui
    There must be a valid reason that Clickbank is making these changes.
    They would do things that would put the company's interest first.
    Just like google coming up with new algorithms.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10375582].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author MicheleThorne
    Thank you for the information on Clickbank Miles! Appreciated. I look forward to seeing how it plays out as well.

    Michele
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10376467].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author alodie
    Originally Posted by MilesBaker View Post

    ClickBank will soon be requiring all of their vendor sales pages to have ClickBank's own branded header at the top of every sales page.

    Here's what it will look like...



    They're calling it the "Always on Shopping Portal" and you can read full details here.

    What are your thoughts?

    Here are a few of my thoughts and concerns...

    1.) Having ClickBank's Customer Support link at the top of the page could make refunds much easier, possibly too easy when ClickBank is handling the tickets. Apparently customers will have a choice to contact the vendor or ClickBank. This could be good for customers and what's good for customers is usually good for the vendor in the long run.

    2.) Technical issues of various kinds. Having your page in an iFrame can break things, cause issues with analytics, etc. I know ClickBank is hard at work on this though, so I'd suspect any of these issues will subside and be resolved. After all ClickBank wants to make more sales, not less.

    3.) The look of my website. Now I will have a logo on top of a logo, that will look really odd. I guess I'll have to redesign it. This could be confusing to visitors and more challenging for branding your own site and sales page.

    4.) As time goes on I question if people will immediately see and recognize a ClickBank site and immediately feel like it's trying to sell them something.

    5.) ClickBank is testing this branded bar, but I wonder if they'll test it over the long-term and how it will perform 6 months, 1 year, 2 years from now.

    6.) Although this is speculation, in the future ClickBank could in theory easily add anything they want to this branded bar. A link to other products, a drop-down menu to their marketplace, whatever they want.

    7.) SEO - I guess if your sales page is in an iFrame only when people go through a hoplink you could still SEO the main page and rank for your domain. I'm not clear exactly how ClickBank is implementing the iFrame or javascript code and still have some unanswered questions.

    8.) The advantages they stated with this new type of setup are they'll be able to do a streamlined near one-click checkout for repeat customers, and MUCH better analytics, sales page ROI, better funnel insights etc. In addition they can provide some insights when past ClickBank customers land on your page. Some REALLY AWESOME stuff from the sound of it. All of these benefits could be achieved with invisible code though, but it sounds like the branded bar is necessary and coming whether we like it or not.

    I suppose the one biggest advantage is ClickBank remains in business. According to them "credit card companies and payment processors are scrutinizing Internet retailers and the quality of products on their platforms". There may be no way around this for ClickBank and this could just be the future of things to come. With change can come opportunity, so I'm looking forward to see how this all plays out.

    Hi Miles,

    Thanks for the heads up on this one.

    And I completely agree with you, "
    With
    change can come opportunity, so I'm
    looking forward to see how this all
    plays out."

    Once again, thanks for the info.

    Cheers,

    Alodieanne

    Signature
    "Providing personal and business transformational information: Working hard to always give the kind of value that will produce the best results for my customers. Because, the success of my business will depend on my customers' satisfaction."


    Alodieanne
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10380947].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author rjd1265
    Just got an email from my vendor rep. It reads as follows:
    (I have yet to implement it so not sure what it looks like quite yet)

    **INTRODUCING The New ClickBank Trust Badge
    The new ClickBank Trust Badge replaces the Always On Shopping Portal. This actually provides two different options to chose from, either a thin header at the top of the page or a floating tab style option. Both versions are served with multiple color palette options to more closely match your branding and aesthetic.

    Out With The Old And In With The New
    While we rolled back the Always On Shopping Portal, many of you still have the previous JavaScript code embedded in the HTML of your sales pages. We strongly encourage you to remove this piece of JavaScript, as it can be replaced with the new line of code for the ClickBank Trust Badge. This new JavaScript will be available to you starting tomorrow.

    Instructions on how to implement the new ClickBank Trust Badge are headed to you then, so keep your eyes peeled on your inbox.

    Once again, we want to extend our deepest thanks for testing these features as they become available. Also, we appreciate you and your patience and feedback as we work through the ups and the downs. We are committed to the promise we made to listen to you, and do everything we can to help you reach your financial goals.**
    Signature
    You Are A Snowflake
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10382079].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      So the "badge" is actually still a header, or alternatively a floating tab that always stays visible even when the user scrolls down?

      The management at ClickBank has truly lost their minds.

      They just can not let go of this scheme to force customers to put ClickBank's branding onto their websites against their will. Their outraged customers already told them loud and clear that we do not accept this violation of our trust. We also made it clear that we're not buying the BS about it being required by the credit card companies (which is obviously not true). Yet they're still trying to have their way with us.

      This has got to be the craziest thing I've seen in all my years in business.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10382294].message }}
  • {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10384859].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author TweetPilot
    Is anyone having issues with this badge?

    I've installed the code, selected the centred header yet it seems to just force me to use the bottom right badge?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10385008].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
      Originally Posted by TweetPilot View Post

      Is anyone having issues with this badge?

      I've installed the code, selected the centred header yet it seems to just force me to use the bottom right badge?
      Badge is working fine for me, I have the top bar.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10385056].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author rjd1265
        Originally Posted by Sarevok View Post

        Badge is working fine for me, I have the top bar.
        Any change in conversions as of yet?

        Actually with the colors pallet they let us choose and my site colors, it looks very nice and unobtrusive......but I have yet to officially launch my product so I only have a few sales here and there thus far
        Signature
        You Are A Snowflake
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10385269].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author MilesBaker
          The one thing I am not fond of is that when you resize your website to a mobile size no matter what badge you have it turns into a header.

          With mobile screen real estate at such a minimum, I want to maximize the space at the top of my site without a Clickbank Header Bar there.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10385434].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author LogoShield
    I'm sure the JVZoo developers are happy right about now.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10385654].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author ED1190
      Originally Posted by LogoShield View Post

      I'm sure the JVZoo developers are happy right about now.
      JVzoo and WarriorPlus definitely are.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10385698].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
        I'll reserve detailed judgement & comment as I am dealing with other matters at the moment, so have no time to examine this iteration in detail. It appears to be a vast improvement over the first iteration (the first iteration was beyond awful in every respect), but I'm unclear if this new iteration adds any real value for vendors, affiliates or buyers, - and of course it has significant obvious drawbacks too.

        I also understand the badge only needs to be on the page with the payment link (not every page describing the product, nor every page on the site, nor every page in the funnel, nor any other such lunacy). This is right, right? If so, that is a major improvement.... a vendor may not like the badge, but could minimize its impact using an interstitial page, and/or with some clever programming by only showing to visitors who are sent by CB affiliates (these visitors would then be sent to the CB order form).... with direct traffic sent to another non-CB payment/retailer order-form.

        Regarding this thread generally - I don't really see what the problem is that some people have with others complaining. If you are CB vendor or affiliate, and are unhappy, of course you should complain - because perhaps just maybe CB will listen (indeed they have already listened and responded to feedback to some extent). If you are CB vendor or affiliate, then of course you have the option to take your business elsewhere if you feel your complaints aren't satisfactorily dealt with (the nuclear option). The idea that every vendor/affiliate must immediately suck it up without comment, or go direct to the nuclear option, seems nonsense - and nonsense which has already been contradicted by history, and by CB's public statements (they have specifically asked for feedback).



        Originally Posted by ED1190 View Post

        JVzoo and WarriorPlus definitely are.
        I am also under the impression that Revenuewire (who I am not personally familiar with) and Fastspring have also specifically reached to some CB vendors. There may be other companies too that are reaching out - there are certainly many other companies in this space. Obviously those vendors thinking of a switch will need to look at the options carefully.
        Signature
        ClickBank Vendor?
        - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
        - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
        - Killer Graphics for Your Site
        SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10385775].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author rjd1265
          Once again,

          Can a vendor who does well with Clickbank come on here and let us know what the conversion change was with the new badge was (not the old header).

          I looked at it on my site and it is not obtrusive at all and when i click on it it gives simple details, with no links to anywhere else. (I have it on the bottom right and similar colors to my site so i looks like it belongs)

          Everyone is talking about jumping ship right away without getting the updated conversion stats.

          And unless you have all your affiliates emails to let them know you changed companies say good by to your affiliate sales, correct?

          What if sales increase for affiliates, vendors and clickbank....I am sure JVZoo and others might take notice and come up with their own version of the Trust Badge.....just a thought
          Signature
          You Are A Snowflake
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10385805].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
            Originally Posted by rjd1265 View Post

            Once again,

            Can a vendor who does well with Clickbank come on here and let us know what the conversion change was with the new badge was (not the old header).

            I looked at it on my site and it is not obtrusive at all and when i click on it it gives simple details, with no links to anywhere else. (I have it on the bottom right and similar colors to my site so i looks like it belongs)

            Everyone is talking about jumping ship right away without getting the updated conversion stats.
            Let's consider the timeline:

            1. ClickBank announces that they are taking over all of their customers' websites against their will, putting their own header and branding at the top, siphoning away their customers' traffic with a link into their own "marketplace," and changing their customers' domain names to ClickBank URLs.

            2. This results in widespread outrage, calls for ClickBank to abandon this scheme, and lots of decisions to leave ClickBank even if they do abandon this scheme because they can never be trusted again.

            3. ClickBank apologizes and abandons some aspects of this scheme... but continues to demand that all of their customers put ClickBank's header and branding at the top of their websites. Obviously, if they are able to make that happen, they can make the rest happen as time goes on.

            4. Customers see through this and continue to be outraged. In particular, people who understand that this approach is only being used by ClickBank now to get their foot in the door are not pacified. And people who are running real businesses can not allow another company's brand to be put at the top of their websites against their will, period, regardless of whether more abuses are coming or not. It's simply not acceptable.

            As to the issue of conversion rates, it's highly unlikely to not hurt conversion rates (see further below). And even if it doesn't hurt conversions right now, what happens later on when ClickBank resumes the other parts of their scheme after getting their foot in the door with this part? Having your traffic sucked away into ClickBank's marketplace instead of staying on your website and buying your product is certain to destroy conversion rates.

            And unless you have all your affiliates emails to let them know you changed companies say good by to your affiliate sales, correct?
            Those are the people who I feel the most sorry for - product sellers whose income depends mostly on anonymous affiliates, and who therefore have to let ClickBank do whatever it wants to them.

            But many if not most product sellers are not in that position. They either generate most of their traffic themselves, or they know who their "super affiliates" are and can easily contact them and inform them about a move to another platform. There are other ways of going about this also, for example running affiliate contests that only apply to the new platform and making sure this is prominent on your affiliate information page. That will help to inform even the anonymous affiliates about a move to another platform.

            What if sales increase for affiliates, vendors and clickbank....I am sure JVZoo and others might take notice and come up with their own version of the Trust Badge.....just a thought
            I find it highly doubtful that putting ClickBank's brand on a sales page is going to increase conversions. Buyers in general have never heard of ClickBank and certainly don't have any kind of preexisting trust in them. If anything, the resulting confusion from seeing two brands will decrease conversions. This only serves to promote ClickBank's brand by forcing website owners to advertise it against their will.

            And let's remember what their actual goal is, since their original rollout of this scheme made it perfectly clear - to capture traffic from the website owners and affiliates, and redirect it into their own "marketplace." Don't think for a second that they've given up on that. They just have to get people to accept the header (or "badge") first.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10385853].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
            Right away???

            Originally Posted by rjd1265 View Post

            Everyone is talking about jumping ship right away without getting the updated conversion stats.
            In case you didn't notice...
            this thread was started 2 months ago, today.

            ClickBank has participated (marginally) in the thread, so it's obvious they have seen the objections voiced here, and I think that the objections to their attempts at branding the merchant's web site were well stated and understandable by anyone who actually does online marketing.

            Maybe ClickBank's failure to understand can be chalked up to their lack of experience in online marketing, as their experience has really only been in the running of the cash register.

            And unless you have all your affiliates emails to let them know you changed companies say good by to your affiliate sales, correct?
            A number of affiliates have already reported here on the WF that their sales have dropped to zero in the past 6 weeks or so. I think those affiliates (and any others who have experienced similar results, but just haven't reported them here) will stop promoting CB products, regardless. Good affiliates track their promotions and sales, and when "things go south" they have no problem finding alternative products to promote.

            Since ClickBank doesn't even appear to know whether the products currently listed in their affiliate marketplace still have a ClickBank buy button on their sales page, I would expect that CB affiliates will begin replacing their CB promotions in favor of similar products from competing marketplaces. In other words, the merchants may have already lost their affiliates and have no choice but to find replacements from those other affiliate networks.
            Signature

            Sid Hale
            Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10385938].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
          Hey Sunil,

          Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

          I also understand the badge only needs to be on the page with the payment link (not every page describing the product, nor every page on the site, nor every page in the funnel, nor any other such lunacy). This is right, right? If so, that is a major improvement.... a vendor may not like the badge, but could minimize its impact using an interstitial page, and/or with some clever programming by only showing to visitors who are sent by CB affiliates (these visitors would then be sent to the CB order form).... with direct traffic sent to another non-CB payment/retailer order-form.
          There is no need for another page in the sales flow...
          The CB order form IS the interstitial page.

          The link on the sales page (what they are calling the "payment link") is no different than an affiliate link on a blog post (which delivers the visitor to the sales page) EXCEPT that it redirects the visitor to... the CB order form.

          As I (and others) have pointed out many times before...
          ClickBank can brand the shit out of that page and do anything they feel is necessary to insure that the buyer is aware of who is the actual seller (ClickBank) of the product that they are about to purchase.

          It's their page!

          Up to that point, no financial commitment has been made by the buyer (oooooops - prospective buyer) and there is no reasonable purpose for any ClickBank branding until that point in time.

          If Coca-Cola allows Wal-Mart to sell their products (they do), it is unlikely that Wal-Mart would try to force Coco-Cola to plant a Wal-Mart sign in front of the Coca-Cola plant... and of course, if they did, Coca-Cola would simply pull their product off the Wal-Mart shelves.
          Signature

          Sid Hale
          Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10385910].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
            Sid:

            Yes I agree that ClickBank could, and ideally should, brand their own pages, and leave vendors' & affiliates' pages alone.

            But what I am trying to understand is what ClickBank is actually asking, as of now...

            As of now, my understanding is, as of now, ClickBank is actually asking fot their branding only on the page with payment link, which could be an interstitial page. Is this understanding correct?
            Signature
            ClickBank Vendor?
            - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
            - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
            - Killer Graphics for Your Site
            SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10385931].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
              Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

              Sid:

              Yes I agree that ClickBank could, and ideally should, brand their own pages, and leave vendors' & affiliates' pages alone.

              But what I am trying to understand is what ClickBank is actually asking, as of now...

              As of now, my understanding is, as of now, ClickBank is actually asking fot their branding only on the page with payment link, which could be an interstitial page. Is this understanding correct?
              Technically, yes, I believe you could get around their attempt to force you to place their brand at the top of your website by creating an interstitial page. You would send potential buyers to that specific page and that is the only place you would let them buy your product. Therefore, you would only have to put ClickBank's brand at the top of that page to give ClickBank what they're demanding.

              But there is an obvious potential downside to that approach, in that forcing buyers to go through an additional step during the purchase process could significantly reduce sales.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10386010].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author website design
    Bye Bye Clickbank.... you just lost a long time vendor.

    I honestly don't know why any vendor would stick with CB after this. Maybe CB might make a little short term money with the current products already listed on their marketplace because of existing relationships with affiliates.... but all new product launches will use alternative payment providers.

    Looks like another CEO boondongle of focusing on short term profits without considering the long term consequences.

    RIP clickbank
    Signature
    no sig needed.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10385798].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author website design
    I've already done tons of split tests with various sized headers/no header and can guarantee 100% that this is nearly impossible to implement into an existing website without hurting bounce rates and conversions.

    Would you be confused/would it ruin credibility of a product had 2 logos/brands on the top of the page? It's hard enough to build your own online brand never mind building/explaining 2 brands - CLickbank is effectively stealing our websites by forcing us to put their brand at the top of the page. When a new customer visits your website it will look like it's owned by 'Clickbank' = ridiculous. Why would anyone want to do this?

    Same goes for a floating sidebar - who the hell wants to see an advertisement for Clickbank on the side of the page - it's confusing to customers and will definitely hurt conversions and trust factors.

    Does PayPal, Swipe or any of the hundreds of other payment processors require a branded header or floating bar on the side of the page? No for obvious reasons.

    Clickbank is not forced to do this because of the credit card companies.

    They are doing this because they think webmasters/vendors are idiots who will happily provide free advertising for their brand/marketplace.

    There is no way I can use Clickbank as a vendor in the future. Thankfully I already have lists of affiliates and can switch platforms relatively painlessly. Sure I might lose a couple lazy affiliates in the process but will more than make up for it with bounce rates/conversions.
    Signature
    no sig needed.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10385838].message }}
  • Clickbank should just stay clear from our websites.

    Paypal doesn't require any of this to reduce chargebacks yet you don't even need to get your product reviewed and can set any price you want.

    Please Clickbank step aside, keep clear from our sales pages.

    Try to implement what Paypal does in reducing refunds and chargebacks.
    Signature

    Website Design | App Creation | Video Marketing | Social Media | Web Hosting

    ==> SlashTouch.Com

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10385862].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author johnnorrman
    gud useful information,
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10388781].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Barrellofmoney
    I think everyone is right. I wish they would just leave it alone. Whats the old saying, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
    Signature

    Rey Albert
    Check out my blog Marketing With Rey

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10389764].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    LOL… had to pop back in to see how this thread progressed… sadly its the same nonsense over and over... and over. I gotta say, there is SO much mis-information and inaccurate information floating from this thread it's MINDBOGGLING.

    btw. its now a trust seal, not anything more.
    Signature

    “Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.”
    ― Dalai Lama XIV

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10390043].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author agmccall
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post


      btw. its now a trust seal, not anything more.
      And you believe that is where it will end.

      al
      Signature

      "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10390080].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      LOL… had to pop back in to see how this thread progressed… sadly its the same nonsense over and over... and over. I gotta say, there is SO much mis-information and inaccurate information floating from this thread it's MINDBOGGLING.
      Once more you have "popped in" to say nothing of substance and then leave the thread again.

      The facts about what ClickBank has attempted to do are abundantly clear and well documented. It's hard to dispute this when their own blog posts, emails and press releases document their actions.

      You have implied that you have some magical insights that the rest of us don't have, but when challenged to explain yourself, you vanished from the thread. Not convincing.

      btw. its now a trust seal, not anything more.
      It doesn't matter if you call it a header or a "trust seal" - the latter of which is ludicrous. It's ClickBank's brand being stuck at the top of someone else's website against their will. And lest we forget, the initial rollout of this scheme showed us what they really want - to steal their vendors' and affiliates' traffic with a link into their "marketplace" and change their vendors' domain names to ClickBank URLs. Just because they've put those parts on hold for now doesn't mean they won't be back once they get their foot in the door with the header.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10390805].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
    The customer/supplier thing is a distraction from the real issues. Technically vendors and affiliates are suppliers to cb, since they supply products and traffic to cb in return for payment.

    It is possible for companies to behave unfairly or unethically to both suppliers and customers.

    For example the big uk supermarkets have been accused of behaving unfairly to their smaller suppliers such as small farmers.

    The supermarket suppliers had to suck it up because they had no other route to market. All they could do is complain, and the bad pr did have some effect on the supermarkets' behaviour.

    In the case of cb vendors and affiliates however you do have other routes to market. Tons of them. So if you are not happy, first complain, and then if that doesnt work, take your business elsewhere.
    Signature
    ClickBank Vendor?
    - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
    - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
    - Killer Graphics for Your Site
    SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10391339].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

      The customer/supplier thing is a distraction from the real issues... It is possible for companies to behave unfairly or unethically to both suppliers and customers.
      That's a great point. Even if you buy into the legal technicalities in ClickBank's TOS and redefine things like customer, retailer, supplier, etc., unethical behavior is still unethical.

      ... Technically vendors and affiliates are suppliers to cb, since they supply products and traffic to cb in return for payment...
      It's worth highlighting that you're referring to ClickBank's legal technicalities. Because as we all know, that's not the reality. Vendors don't supply anything to ClickBank - they deliver their own products to their customers, along with handling every other aspect of the sale other than payment processing. Similarly, ClickBank's legalese says people who buy things from vendors are ClickBank's customers, but in any rational analysis, they are the vendors' customers, and the vendors who use ClickBank's services are ClickBank's customers.

      But, as you said, the terminology is just a distraction. ClickBank's behavior is unacceptable regardless of what terminology is used.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10391376].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    LOL… I knew it was a bad decision to come back here and reply.

    I KNEW there would be a TROLL.

    AKA "jon patrick"

    hey jabronie… I'm actually TESTING the trust seal… are you?

    ya, i'm calling you out.

    you're bitching and complaining pointing out how everyone is wrong and you are right… opinions don't mean jack in our business, but you're a baller so you know this already... are you actually testing it?

    god forbid it actually makes you more money.

    What then?

    my last post you're going to flame me?

    LOL!!! comical bro.

    comical.

    If I was you, I'd seriously reconsider that reply.

    you're polluting this thread with so much idiotic BS nonsense… it's beyond comical.

    of course, you're right.. and everyone else posting here is wrong.

    I mean, you'd think after posting a dozen 28 page posts, the guy would have nothing else to say but sadly he keep posting the same incorrect nonsense over and over giving the rest of you guys incorrect information.

    The more he posts in this thread, the bigger of a fool he comes off.

    Guys… get educated on the actual facts, not some incorrect garbage… dont' be foolish enough to listen to this nonsense.

    I for one, think the new seal might bump up conversions. (seeing the BBB and A+ rating I can't think it would hurt)

    But I'm testing it.

    because i'm a direct response marketer.

    Thats what you do.

    P.S. I will post my results when I collect enough data.
    Signature

    “Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.”
    ― Dalai Lama XIV

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10392142].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      I think my conversation with myob has run its course, as we've both made our views clear and his latest post is about the legal technicalities rather than the concerns I and others have raised. I'll go ahead and reply to Dave:

      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      LOL… I knew it was a bad decision to come back here and reply.

      I KNEW there would be a TROLL.

      And that honor goes to... jon patrick.

      the guy posts at least a dozen times in this thread with 28 page posts…
      I'm participating in the discussion in a substantive way.

      You're popping into the thread occasionally to say something snide, and then leaving the thread.

      I don't know how my behavior makes me a troll, while your behavior is supposed to be taken seriously and anyone who doesn't has somehow wronged you?

      and I have nothing to say?

      LOL. comical bro.
      You have said nothing to address the issues I and others have been discussing in this thread. You've only implied that we're all wrong with no explanation given. When challenged to explain yourself, you have disappeared. This isn't me attacking you. These are just facts.

      hey jabronie…

      I'm actually TESTING the trust seal… are you?

      ya, i'm calling you out.
      You're "calling me out" by asking me whether I'm testing the "trust seal," aka header?

      Like many vendors, I will wait to see what ultimately happens and whether ClickBank moves ahead with forcing everyone to put this at the top of their websites.

      If they do, I will migrate to another platform. The header's effect on conversions is not a deciding issue for me for a number of reasons.

      This determination is mine to make. The numerous rational problems with ClickBank's behavior that I and many others have raised throughout this thread do not all disappear if the header happens to increase conversions, which, for what it's worth, I find unlikely.

      you're bitching and complaining…
      Nobody is forcing you to read the thread if you feel that way. It should also be noted that if it wasn't for their customers "bitching and complaining" about their unethical behavior, ClickBank wouldn't have been forced to put some of it on hold as a result. Would you have preferred that outcome?

      Would you have preferred ClickBank to steal your traffic by siphoning it away through a link to their "marketplace" in that header?

      Would you have preferred ClickBank to redirect your website into an IFRAME and change your domain name to a ClickBank URL?

      People "bitching and complaining" are the reason these things didn't happen.

      opinions don't mean jack in our business,
      The opinions of the people who use a company's service certainly do matter.

      but you're a baller so you know this already... are you actually testing it?
      I'm not sure where you got the idea that the validity of the issues I and many others have raised hinges on how the header affects conversions. The issues that have been raised are:

      - Being forced to put another company's header and brand at the top of our websites against our will

      - Having our traffic (and our affiliates' traffic) stolen by a link in that header to this company's "marketplace" which siphons away our hard-earned traffic for their benefit

      - Having our websites redirected to an IFRAME and our domain names changed to ClickBank URLs

      - Being given justifications for these self-serving actions which defy common sense and insult all of their customers' intelligence

      Because of the great number of vocal customers who lambasted ClickBank about this unethical behavior, they have been forced to put some of these things on hold, which has been reflected in the discussion here. But they are still trying to force everyone to put their header and brand at the top of our websites against our will.

      Even if that header somehow increases our sales - which I and others have argued will probably not happen, with the opposite being more likely - that doesn't mean it's not a problem.

      If you're running a real business, you need your website to look like YOUR website. Outside the world of made-for-ClickBank products and JVs, you can't send a potential business partner to check out your website and have them see another company's brand at the top. Having developed business relationships with large companies in the past, I can tell you it would be much harder to get them to take you seriously.

      god forbid it actually makes you more money.

      What then?
      Then the people who are OK with being forced to put ClickBank's brand at the top of their websites will keep using them, until ClickBank resumes the other parts of their scheme after getting their foot in the door with the header. Then the upheaval will start all over again.

      Meanwhile, the people who aren't OK with being forced to do that will migrate to other service providers and continue increasing their revenues through other means.

      you picked the wrong person to flame and attack… the wrong person pal.
      Please calm down and remember that it was you who came into the thread with a snide attitude telling everyone that we're wrong, we're posting misinformation, our views are nonsense, etc... without providing any explanation. Did you really expect nobody to ask you to explain yourself, or to notice when you then disappeared from the thread completely?

      I didn't "pick" you either of the times I have addressed you. I simply replied to what you said about me and the numerous others who have been discussing this issue.

      I'm sure you're a decent person, and I have no reservations about continuing this discussion with you in a polite way.

      my last post you're going to flame me?

      LOL. comical bro.

      comical.

      If I was you, I'd seriously reconsider that reply.
      That kind of sounds like a threat. I'm sure you can't be that angry about a discussion on a forum (you would have to be unstable), so I must be misinterpreting you.

      Let's be clear about this. Your tone in the post I replied to was much more jeering and abrasive than my reply. Really, take an honest look at it.

      To address other people that way and then be surprised if anyone says anything wouldn't be reasonable. I'm sure you probably are a reasonable person, so why don't you put that on display and either participate in a calm manner or just move on to a different thread? What is gained by being combative about it?

      you're polluting this thread with so much idiotic BS nonsense… it's beyond comical.
      I've already asked you to explain where you disagree with me and the others who have raised the same issues. You left the thread.

      of course, you're right.. and everyone else posting here is wrong.
      Have you actually read the thread? The vast majority of people have raised the same issues I have. There is a reason ClickBank was forced to issue a press release and put a lot of this on hold.

      The more you post in this thread, the bigger of a fool you sound like.
      Nothing is gained by trading in personal insults. I've provided substantive analysis of the topic and explained my views. I think that's a much more productive approach.

      I mean, you'd think after posting a dozen 28 page posts, the guy would have nothing else to say but sadly he keep posting the same incorrect nonsense over and over
      You've been challenged to explain how what I and others have been saying is incorrect, and you left the thread. I've been participating in the discussion and replying to other people's posts in a thorough and deliberate manner. Many others throughout this thread have raised the same issues I have. If you think something we've said is incorrect, you are free to explain. Otherwise, what is there to talk about?

      giving the rest of you guys incorrect information.

      Guys… get educated on the actual facts, not some incorrect garbage… dont' be foolish enough to listen to this nonsense.
      Most of the people you're talking about when you say "the rest of you guys" have raised the same issues, based on seeing the same announcements, blog posts and emails from ClickBank.

      I for one, think the new seal might bump up conversions. (seeing the BBB and A+ rating I can't think it would hurt)

      But I'm testing it.

      because i'm a direct response marketer.

      Thats what you do.
      It's good that you're testing it. And for those who only care about its effect on conversions, that is certainly the key issue. Many people, though, are concerned about the other issues surrounding ClickBank's recent behavior.

      I do feel sorry for anyone who sticks with ClickBank and doesn't at least get other plans in place "just in case." If ClickBank resumes the other parts of their scheme after getting their foot in the door with the header, which in my view is very likely, those people will not be happy.

      As to BBB and A+ rating graphics, those do not always increase conversions. I also think there are other issues that could push conversions down with regard to the header: the confusion resulting from seeing two brands, how it affects the flow of a visitor's thoughts when scanning the page, what happens when a visitor Googles ClickBank after seeing their brand on the header, etc.

      But it is possible that it will increase conversions. I just don't think it's likely, and whether it increases conversions is not the only issue for myself and many others.

      P.S. I will post my results when I collect enough data.
      I'm sure a lot of people would appreciate that.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10392345].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author myob
        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        I think my conversation with myob has run its course, as we've both made our views clear and his latest post is about the legal technicalities rather than the concerns I and others have raised.
        Oh really now. I know what you're trying to do, but it's not going to work. There are other, more urgently pressing legal technicalities that Clickbank is facing due to changes in credit card company policies such as shifting fraud liability to merchants. But don't you worry about that none; Clickbank has got you covered despite your protests.

        On a lighter note, do you know that Clickbank, as a leading global internet retailer, has over 200,000,000 customers and 6 million clients, operating in over 180 countries and in six languages? You've got a lot of work to do to get the word out about your whining, (er ... ahem ... "concerns").
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10392771].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          Oh really now. I know what you're trying to do, but it's not going to work.
          What am I trying to do? If you'd like to continue our discussion, I am certainly willing. You didn't reply to anything from my previous post in your last reply here, or say anything I hadn't already addressed, so there was little reason for me to address you again.

          There are other, more urgently pressing legal technicalities that Clickbank is facing due to changes in credit card company policies such as shifting fraud liability to merchants. But don't you worry about that none; Clickbank has got you covered.
          I am really surprised that anyone still believes ClickBank's unethical behavior is being forced on them by the credit card companies. Not only has that been addressed a number of times throughout this thread, but ClickBank themselves made it patently obvious that it isn't true when, after they saw the backlash to this whole scheme, they announced they weren't going to do some of the things they had previously claimed the credit card companies were making them do.

          Do you know that Clickbank, as a leading global internet retailer,
          Whether or not they are a retailer has been addressed here:

          http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...l#post10385762

          Short version - only in the world of legal technicalities are they a retailer. In reality, they are a payment processor providing services to vendors who seek out and use those services.

          has over 200,000,000 customers
          Whether or not those people are their customers has been addressed here:

          http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...l#post10389634

          Short version - again, this comes down to the difference between legalese and reality. In reality, people who buy a vendor's product from a vendor's website are that vendor's customers. Vendors who seek out and use ClickBank's payment processing service are ClickBank's customers.

          and 6 million clients,
          See above.

          operating in over 180 countries
          I'm not sure how this has any bearing on the topic, but every online business can say the same. Or does ClickBank actually have offices in 180 countries? Of course, the answer is that they don't.

          I do predict a lengthy and distracting battle on that simple point, though.

          and in six languages?
          Again, what does this have to do with the issues I and many others have raised in this thread?

          You've got a lot of work to do to get the word out about your whining, (er ... ahem ... "concerns").
          You do understand that the backlash they've received (or "whining" as you call it) has already forced ClickBank to issue a press release and put some aspects of this scheme on hold, right?
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10392817].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author myob
            Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

            What am I trying to do?
            I know it, and you know it.

            Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

            If you'd like to continue our discussion, I am certainly willing. You didn't reply to anything from my previous post in your last reply here, or say anything I hadn't already addressed, so there was little reason for me to address you again.
            Before we can continue on to the next stage in addressing your so-called "concerns", there needs to be a clear understanding of some fundamental basics. Like it or not, Clickbank is an internet retailer, not a payment processor, and has established legally binding roles between vendors, affiliates, and their customers.

            What you have portrayed as "unethical" behavior by Clickbank is actually well within these legal rights, for which you agreed to upon becoming a vendor. Go ahead and read their TOS, specifically regarding your rights as a vendor. I'll wait.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10393873].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
              Originally Posted by myob View Post

              I know it, and you know it.
              I'm afraid I don't. Please explain.

              Before we can continue on to the next stage in addressing your so-called "concerns",
              They're not just my concerns. Many others share them as well - the majority of the people who have posted in this thread are not happy with ClickBank's recent behavior. In fact, so many people feel this way that ClickBank was forced to issue a press release and put some aspects of their scheme on hold. I've already pointed this out to you, but you don't seem to care about reality.

              there needs to be a clear understanding of some fundamental basics. Like it or not, Clickbank is an internet retailer, not a payment processor,
              I've addressed this argument ad nauseam at this point, and I've linked back to an example in my previous post. Now, if you have any specific response to the logic I've presented on this, I'm all ears. But simply repeating the assertion that's already been addressed isn't productive.

              and has established legally binding roles between vendors, affiliates, and their customers.
              I value reality more than the legal technicalities in ClickBank's Terms of Service. You clearly feel differently. Why you feel the need to argue about terminology in the first place is beyond me, although I suspect it has something to do with your prejudice against product sellers, which you openly displayed a few posts back.

              What you have portrayed as "unethical" behavior by Clickbank is actually well within these legal rights,
              There's a difference between illegal and unethical. This, too, has already been addressed.

              for which you agreed to upon becoming a vendor. Go ahead and read their TOS, specifically regarding your rights as a vendor. I'll wait.
              This has been addressed as well.

              Would you like links to the locations in the thread where all of these arguments have already been addressed? Then you can decide whether to respond to what was actually said in addressing them, or to spend your time doing something else.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10393893].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
                @Jon Patrick: Please go on with your life, I don't understand your need to keep criticizing Clickbank repeatedly over and over again. This thread has gone to shit because of you.


                -


                To Clickbank:

                Please make a Spanish version of the trust badge.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10394506].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                  Originally Posted by Pnigro View Post

                  @Jon Patrick: Please go on with your life, I don't understand your need to keep criticizing Clickbank repeatedly over and over again. This thread has gone to shit because of you.
                  I couldn't disagree more. Let me help you understand what's happening from my perspective.

                  Certain forum members entered the thread and voiced disagreement with the views that I (and most other participants in the thread) have expressed regarding ClickBank's recent unethical behavior. I'm responding directly to their statements in a thorough and deliberate manner.

                  I'm willing to defend my position on logical grounds and will continue to do so for as long as it's challenged. This is my right, just as it's your right to participate in the forum however you see fit. The only problem I see going on in this thread is contemptuous tones being used towards fellow forum members without provocation, as you just did, although that may not have been your intention.

                  It's not like you're obligated to read the thread if you're not interested in following this discussion, so I don't see a reason to get upset.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10394608].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author ClickBank
                  Originally Posted by Pnigro View Post

                  To Clickbank:

                  Please make a Spanish version of the trust badge.
                  Hi Pnigro,

                  The badge is translated, but our system defaults to the language preference set by the user for their browser. If your default setting is to Spanish, it will display in Spanish. We have it translated for English, Spanish, Brazilian Portuguese, French, Italian, and German.

                  Thanks,
                  The ClickBank Team
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10395549].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author agmccall
                    Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

                    Hi Pnigro,

                    The badge is translated, but our system defaults to the language preference set by the user for their browser. If your default setting is to Spanish, it will display in Spanish. We have it translated for English, Spanish, Brazilian Portuguese, French, Italian, and German.

                    Thanks,
                    The ClickBank Team
                    once again, Clickbank finds one of the most useless posts in this thread and responds to it.

                    Thanks for nothing

                    al
                    Signature

                    "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10395709].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
                      Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

                      once again, Clickbank finds one of the most useless posts in this thread and responds to it.

                      Thanks for nothing

                      al
                      Useless to you.
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10395953].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
                        Hi Pnigro,

                        Just so there's no misunderstanding...

                        Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

                        once again, Clickbank finds one of the most useless posts in this thread and responds to it.
                        Originally Posted by Pnigro View Post

                        Useless to you.
                        I'm sure Al's response was directed at ClickBank and was not intended to lessen the importance of your question (although a more logical place to ask the question would have been their help desk).

                        Your only mistake was to ask that question in this thread because 1) it was a little off topic, and 2) ClickBank has been so noticeably absent from this thread that you really should not have expected a reply at all. (Wonder of wonders.)

                        After all, it was their reply to you that he quoted:
                        Signature

                        Sid Hale
                        Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10396318].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author myob
                Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                I'm afraid I don't. Please explain.
                Oh come on. I know you can give a much better explanation of your role in this grand scheme here.

                Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                They're not just my concerns. Many others share them as well - the majority of the people who have posted in this thread are not happy with ClickBank's recent behavior. In fact, so many people feel this way that ClickBank was forced to issue a press release and put some aspects of their scheme on hold. I've already pointed this out to you, but you don't seem to care about reality.
                I'm well aware of the issues (and petitions), but at this point they are all irrelevant since Clickbank made the recent decision for their trust badge. There is no such thing as "a scheme on hold" by Clickbank. Your sense of reality seems either disingenuous or warped by wild imagination. I highly suspect the former.

                Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                I've addressed this argument ad nauseam at this point, and I've linked back to an example in my previous post. Now, if you have any specific response to the logic I've presented on this, I'm all ears. But simply repeating the assertion that's already been addressed isn't productive.
                And I've given you the facts ad nauseam based upon Clickbank's published TOS and adjudicated statements on their website. The "logic" you've presented is based on false premises. Your repeated assertion of an alternate reality does not change the facts.

                Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                I value reality more than the legal technicalities in ClickBank's Terms of Service.
                Good luck with that.

                Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                You clearly feel differently. Why you feel the need to argue about terminology in the first place is beyond me, although I suspect it has something to do with your prejudice against product sellers, which you openly displayed a few posts back.
                Admittedly, I do have a prejudice against ignorance in general, although in my experience, it does seem to be more common among certain Clickbank product sellers.

                Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                Would you like links to the locations in the thread where all of these arguments have already been addressed? Then you can decide whether to respond to what was actually said in addressing them, or to spend your time doing something else.
                No thanks, but I appreciate the offer. I would much rather spend my time doing something else.

                Originally Posted by Pnigro View Post

                @Jon Patrick: Please go on with your life, I don't understand your need to keep criticizing Clickbank repeatedly over and over again. This thread has gone to shit because of you.
                Pnigro, I agree with Jon Patrick ... in his reply to you ... "I could't disagree more". In the coming weeks and months ahead, Jon and I will be discussing in depth the ethics and morality of Clickbank as well as the legal ramifications of risk management through unethical behavior. Stay tuned.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10394760].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                  Originally Posted by myob View Post

                  Oh come on. I know you can give a much better explanation of your role in this grand scheme here.
                  I truly have no idea what you're talking about. I doubt anyone else does, either. As we're discussing business matters, it's probably more productive to speak clearly than to post riddles.

                  I'm well aware of the issues (and petitions), but at this point they are all irrelevant since Clickbank made the recent decision for their trust badge. There is no such thing as "a scheme on hold" by Clickbank. Your sense of reality seems either disingenuous or warped by wild imagination. I highly suspect the former.
                  The scheme I am referring to is ClickBank's attempt to:

                  - Force their customers to put ClickBank's header and branding at the top of their websites against their will

                  - Steal traffic from their customers by putting a link to their own "marketplace" in that header, siphoning away their customers' hard earned traffic

                  - Redirect their customers' websites into an IFRAME and replace their domain names with ClickBank URLs

                  Of course, when I say "customers" above, I'm referring to the vendors and affiliates who seek out and use their services, or their "business customers" or "clients" as you have referred to them. I must be clear about this, since you tend to get sidetracked with arguments about terminology.

                  There is no denying that ClickBank attempted to do these things. These are well documented facts, and anyone who denies them is either uninformed or fundamentally dishonest. We all saw the announcements, blog posts and emails from ClickBank.

                  After the outrage that occurred in response to this scheme, ClickBank issued a press release in which they rolled back some of these things. In other words, they put some parts of their scheme on hold - or do you actually believe they will never bring these things up again?

                  I certainly don't. In my view, it's clear they made a decision to hold off on some of these things for now due to the backlash, and just go with the header to get their foot in the door. Once that has happened, they can move forward with the rest more easily. I don't think this requires being disingenuous or having a "wild imagination" to see. They've made it abundantly clear they want to do these things. If they can get that header at the top of everybody's websites, then once the dust has settled the rest will be much easier.

                  Look at ClickBank's press release. There's a clear difference in language between how they talked about the IFRAME implementation (saying it will never be back) and the other issues: vendor websites being redirected to ClickBank URLs (they did not say it will never be back), vendors being forced to put ClickBank's header and branding at the top of their websites (this is still moving forward), a traffic-stealing link being put into this header that goes to ClickBank's own "marketplace" (they did not say it will never be back, only that they won't use one that doesn't support attribution), etc.

                  Remember, they spent a long time crafting this press release. We waited for it here in the thread. These words were chosen very carefully.

                  Regardless of whether this makes sense to you, they are still openly trying to force all of the vendors who use their services to put ClickBank's header and branding (now being called a "trust badge") at the top of their websites against their will, so the topic is not irrelevant.

                  And I've given you the facts ad nauseam based upon Clickbank's published TOS and adjudicated statements on their website.
                  The legal technicalities in ClickBank's Terms of Service, and the references to them on ClickBank's website, were not unknown to me at any point, as I made clear early on. They are simply far less important than actual reality. You disagree. I think we're pretty clear about that.

                  The "logic" you've presented is based on false premises. Your repeated assertion of an alternate reality does not change the facts.
                  First off, let's be clear that this is in reference to your quibble over terminology. Here is my logic on that:

                  - The vendors and affiliates who seek out and use ClickBank's services are ClickBank's customers. This is self-evident, and you yourself have referred to them as ClickBank's "clients" or ClickBank's "business customers."

                  - On the other hand, the people who seek out a vendor's product, visit the vendor's website, are convinced by the vendor to buy it, receive it from the vendor, and then receive support after the sale from the vendor, are the vendor's customers. The relationship described here is an obvious customer/seller relationship.

                  - Those buyers generally have never heard of ClickBank, have no idea what they do, have zero interest in being their customers, and the only interaction they have with ClickBank is when a vendor uses their services to process the sale. Their relationship with ClickBank is not a customer/seller relationship.

                  - This is reality, and while I'm aware that the legal technicalities in ClickBank's Terms of Service claim that these buyers are actually their customers (which is the only thing you keep repeating), I value reality more than legalese. Therefore, I refer to the vendors as ClickBank's customers, and I refer to buyers as the vendors' customers. You are free to use different terminology if you wish.

                  That is my logic. If you wish to continue quibbling over this, then please be specific. How is this logic faulty?

                  Good luck with that.
                  This is a reply without much substance.

                  Admittedly, I do have a prejudice against ignorance in general, although in my experience, it does seem to be more common among certain Clickbank product sellers.
                  You said something disparaging, and then you said "even for a vendor." That is a blanket expression of prejudice against vendors. Anyone who understands English knows the difference.

                  No thanks, but I appreciate the offer. I would much rather spend my time doing something else.
                  Then why aren't you?

                  Pnigro, I agree with Jon Patrick ... in his reply to you ... "I could't disagree more". In the coming weeks and months ahead, Jon and I will be discussing in depth the ethics and morality of Clickbank as well as the legal ramifications of risk management through unethical behavior. Stay tuned.
                  What you've been doing is quibbling over terminology. I'm not sure how I became your enemy, since you were the one who barged into the thread accusing people of having a "hissy fit," "bitching and complaining," etc. People were discussing issues highly relevant to the future of their businesses, and you addressed us this way. I suppose that by responding to you, I gave you what you wanted.

                  In all sincerity, I think if you really look inside yourself, there are more worthwhile things you could be doing than taking potshots at me, using emoticons, etc.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10395579].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author myob
                    Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                    I truly have no idea what you're talking about. I doubt anyone else does, either. As we're discussing business matters, it's probably more productive to speak clearly than to post riddles.
                    There are many people who know exactly what this is all about.

                    Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                    The scheme I am referring to is ClickBank's attempt to:

                    - Force their customers to put ClickBank's header and branding at the top of their websites against their will

                    - Steal traffic from the vendors and affiliates who use their services by putting a link to their own "marketplace" in that header, siphoning away their hard earned traffic

                    - Redirect every vendor's website into an IFRAME and replace their domain names with ClickBank URLs

                    Of course, when I say "customers" above, I'm referring to the vendors and affiliates who seek out and use their services, or their "business customers" or "clients" as you have referred to them. I must be clear about this, since you tend to get sidetracked with arguments about terminology.

                    There is no denying that ClickBank attempted to do these things. These are well documented facts, and anyone who denies them is either uninformed or fundamentally dishonest. We all saw the announcements, blog posts and emails from ClickBank.

                    After the outrage that occurred in response to this scheme, ClickBank released a press release in which they rolled back some of these things. In other words, they put some parts of their scheme on hold - or do you actually believe they will never bring these things up again?

                    I certainly don't. In my view, it's clear they made a decision to hold off on these things for now due to the backlash, and just go with the header to get their foot in the door. Once that has happened, they can move forward with the rest more easily. I don't think this requires being disingenuous or having a "wild imagination" to see. They've made it abundantly clear they want to do these things. If they can get that header at the top of everybody's websites, then once the dust has settled the rest will be much easier.

                    Look at ClickBank's press release. There's a clear difference in language between how they talked about the IFRAME implementation (saying it will never be back) and the other issues: vendor websites being redirected to ClickBank's URLs (they did not say it will never be back), vendors being forced to put ClickBank's header and branding at the top of their websites (this is still moving forward), a traffic-stealing link being put into this header that goes to ClickBank's own "marketplace" (they did not say it will never be back, only that they won't use one that doesn't support attribution), etc.

                    Remember, they spent a long time crafting this press release. We waited for it here in the thread. These words were chosen very carefully.

                    Regardless of whether this makes sense to you, they are still openly trying to force all of the vendors who use their services to put ClickBank's header and branding (now being called a "trust badge") at the top of their websites against their will, so the topic is not irrelevant.
                    The reason I have been emphasizing correct terminology is to make it easier to understand why Clickbank has taken these recent courses of action. On Oct 1, US banks began making some drastic changes in security for all debit and credit card processing. Credit card fraud, particularly for online transactions, has been increasing at alarming rates in recent years. The new security measures that banks are implementing include shifting liability to merchants. Clickbank is highly vulnerable, and has seen increasingly higher levels of fraud and chargebacks. They have admitted to over-reacting to demands by banks, but have now produced an apparently satisfactory compromise.

                    Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                    The legal technicalities in ClickBank's Terms of Service, and the references to them on ClickBank's website, were not unknown to me at any point, as I made clear early on. They are simply far less important than actual reality. You disagree. I think we're pretty clear about that.
                    Clickbank disagrees with you as well, and you are legally bound by those terms of service for which you agreed at the time of signing up as a vendor.

                    Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post


                    First off, let's be clear that we're talking about your quibble over terminology. Here is my logic on that:

                    - The vendors and affiliates who seek out and use ClickBank's services are ClickBank's customers. This is self-evident, and you yourself have referred to them as ClickBank's "clients" or ClickBank's "business customers."

                    - On the other hand, the people who seek out a vendor's products, visit the vendor's website, are convinced by the vendor to buy it, receive it from the vendor, and then receive support after the sale from the vendor, are the vendor's customers. The relationship described here is an obvious customer/seller relationship.

                    - Those buyers generally have never heard of ClickBank, have no idea what they do, have zero interest in being their customers, and the only interaction they have with ClickBank is when a vendor uses their services to process the sale. Their relationship with ClickBank is not a customer/seller relationship.

                    - This is reality, and while I'm aware that the legal technicalities in ClickBank's Terms of Service claim that these buyers are actually their customers, I value reality more. You are free to value legalese more than reality if you choose.

                    Now, please be specific. How is this logic faulty?
                    You're aware of the legal technicalities in Clickbank's Terms of Service claim that buyers are actually their customers, but yet you prefer to believe in an alternate reality. That doesn't seem logical to me at all. Contrary to your valued belief system, Clickbank's relationship to buyers is indeed a customer/seller relationship. Their after-purchase customer service and follow-up is world class.

                    Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                    This is a reply without much substance.
                    What can I say?

                    Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                    You said something disparaging, and then you said "even for a vendor." That is a blanket expression of sweeping prejudice against product sellers in general. Anyone who understands English knows the difference.
                    It is no great secret that my opinion of Clickbank vendors in general is not exactly stellar. My marketing style and posts here on the forum often reflect as such.

                    Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                    Then why aren't you?
                    I am, right after this post.

                    Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                    What you've been doing is quibbling over terminology. I'm not sure how I became your enemy, since you were the one who barged into the thread accusing people of having a "hissy fit," "bitching and complaining," etc. People were discussing issues highly relevant to the future of their businesses, and you addressed them this way. I suppose that by responding to you, I gave you what you wanted.
                    Don't be so sensitive, but your views are untenable.

                    Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                    In all sincerity, I think if you really look inside yourself, there are more worthwhile things you could be doing than taking potshots at me, using emoticons, etc.
                    There are lots of people who are reading and learning from this; far more than you realize. These "potshots", are not directed at you personally, but at the absurdity.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10395745].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                      Originally Posted by myob View Post

                      There are many people who know exactly what this is all about.
                      Which is what, exactly?

                      The reason I have been emphasizing correct terminology is to make it easier to understand why Clickbank has taken these recent courses of action.
                      What you proceed to post after this (quoted below) really didn't require a lengthy and distracting battle over what you see as correct terminology.

                      On Oct 1, US banks began making some drastic changes in security for all debit and credit card processing. Credit card fraud, particularly for online transactions, has been increasing at alarming rates in recent years. The new security measures that banks are implementing include shifting liability to merchants. Clickbank is highly vulnerable, and has seen increasingly higher levels of fraud and chargebacks.
                      They provided two credit card related justifications for their scheme to take over all of our websites:

                      1. They claimed that buyers are getting confused when they see "ClickBank" on their credit card statements, and that this is causing a problematic number of chargebacks.

                      The reality is that buyers pay on a ClickBank branded order form, they receive order confirmation emails from ClickBank, and the vendor's "Thank You" page tells them their credit card statement will say "ClickBank." There may be some small number of imbeciles who still don't understand why they're seeing "ClickBank" on their credit card statements after all that, but enough to justify ClickBank taking such extreme and invasive actions against all of the vendors and affiliates who uses their services?

                      I don't buy that for a second, and not just because I doubt this type of confusion happens that often (although I do doubt it).

                      When a buyer is confused about why something appears on their card statement, and they file for a chargeback, it initiates a process during which the merchant has an opportunity to explain why the charge was valid, what it was for, etc. The buyer is no longer wondering what the charge was for at that point - problem solved on that count. If the chargeback still happens at the end of this process, it's not due to confusion about why ClickBank is on the buyer's credit card statement.

                      In addition, even if you do believe this is really a problem, there are many other less damaging and invasive steps ClickBank could try in order to address it. No responsible company would take such extreme (and conveniently self-serving on their part) actions against their customers before trying every other possible alternative.

                      Now, let's look at the second justification they gave us.

                      2. Fraud moving online

                      It's pretty obvious that putting a ClickBank graphic on a page against the owner's will, having vendors' and affiliates' traffic be stolen by ClickBank, redirecting vendors' domain names to ClickBank URLs, etc., does not address the issue of online credit card fraud.

                      They have admitted to over-reacting to demands by banks,
                      Like others have said, I don't believe that was the impetus behind their attempt to take over all of our websites. Why would the banks demand that ClickBank do things which do not address the issue of credit card fraud and are not the logical solution to the issue of customers being confused when they see "ClickBank" on their credit card statements (assuming that is even a real problem)?

                      but have now produced an apparently satisfactory compromise.
                      Satisfactory to whom? I see many more people who want ClickBank to leave their websites alone than people who are happy about being forced to put ClickBank's header and brand at the top of their websites.

                      Clickbank disagrees with you as well,
                      ClickBank agrees with their own Terms of Service? Shocking!

                      and you are legally bound by those terms of service for which you agreed at the time of signing up as a vendor.
                      First off, we're only "bound" by ClickBank's terms for as long as we use ClickBank, so that's a problem with a solution.

                      Second, they're free to put whatever reality-defying legalese they want in their Terms of Service - that doesn't mean I become blind to the actual reality of the customer/seller relationship that's happening.

                      If ClickBank's legal terms say that a dog is a cat, and you tell me it's true and I must agree with you because ClickBank says this in their Terms of Service, which I agreed to in order to use their services, you're going to get the same reaction you're getting now.

                      Reality over legalese.

                      You're aware of the legal technicalities in Clickbank's Terms of Service claim that buyers are actually their customers, but yet you prefer to believe in an alternate reality.
                      It's not an alternate reality. It's actual reality. What actually happens.

                      The fact that ClickBank's Terms of Service claim things which conflict with reality puts them in the category of an alternate reality, not the other way around.

                      Contrary to your valued belief system, Clickbank's relationship to buyers is indeed a customer/seller relationship. Their after-purchase customer service and follow-up is world class.
                      It is absolutely not a customer/seller relationship.

                      To your points, vendors do most of the after-purchase customer service for their buyers. I know this because I'm a vendor and I do this for my buyers, not ClickBank. ClickBank just processes the payment. If a customer is requesting support and a vendor is unresponsive, then ClickBank will default to a refund, which only makes sense as they are the one who processed the payment.

                      Follow-up like order confirmation emails is standard for many payment processing services.

                      It is no great secret that my opinion of Clickbank vendors in general is not exactly stellar. My marketing style and posts here on the forum often reflect as such.
                      Please explain why you're prejudiced against product sellers who use ClickBank's payment processing and affiliate management services. It's obviously not because you dislike the fact that they use ClickBank, since (unlike most of the people here who use ClickBank's services) you're perfectly happy with ClickBank's recent behavior.

                      So why, then?

                      I am, right after this post.
                      OK.

                      Don't be so sensitive,
                      I'm not the overly sensitive type. What I don't like is when someone comes into a thread where people are talking about an issue that could be disastrous for their businesses and livelihoods, starts using terms like "hissy fit" and "bitching and complaining," and then openly expresses their prejudice against everyone. It's kind of not cool.

                      I very seriously doubt you're the kind of person in real life that you seem to be based on your participation in this thread. I wish you would reconsider whatever has made you prejudiced against such a large and diverse group of people, and either participate constructively or just move on to another thread that you might enjoy more.

                      There are lots of people who are reading and learning from this; far more than you realize.
                      I am very aware of how many people are following the discussion in this thread.

                      These "potshots", are not directed at you personally,
                      You really could have fooled me, but OK. This is less important to me than the issue at hand.

                      but at the absurdity.
                      There's nothing absurd about my position on this topic (and many others in this thread have taken the same position). Anyone who reads my posts can see that I've thought carefully about this issue, and I'm explaining and defending my views in a thorough and deliberate way.

                      A significant portion of my income is derived from selling products for which I use ClickBank's payment processing and affiliate management services. When they engage in abusive and unethical behavior that threatens to cause instability in my business, I take that very seriously. Especially since I know that many people are unfortunately more reliant on ClickBank's services than I am, and therefore this type of unethical behavior on ClickBank's part could cause even more harm to their businesses.
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10396396].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Christopher Fox
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      I for one, think the new seal might bump up conversions. (seeing the BBB and A+ rating I can't think it would hurt)

      But I'm testing it.

      because i'm a direct response marketer.

      Thats what you do.

      P.S. I will post my results when I collect enough data.
      Yer a baller, and have collected more than enough data to analyze. What's the verdict on if this has had an affect upon your conversions?
      Signature
      One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothing can beat teamwork.

      - Seldom Seen Smith
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10612368].message }}
  • Please Clickbank you should REALLY consider having a chat with Paypal, and ask for some advice on how to deal with reducing refunds/chargebacks.

    I sell using Paypal and Clickback.

    And I have close to zero refunds with Paypal. If I do have a customer complain the platform is there for us to work out the solution.

    You should consider having something similar.

    Having your logo badges on our sites won't stop customers from gaming the system. In-fact its annoying.

    Concerned vendor.
    Signature

    Website Design | App Creation | Video Marketing | Social Media | Web Hosting

    ==> SlashTouch.Com

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10395796].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Raydal
      Originally Posted by Makabongwe Maseko View Post

      Please Clickbank you should REALLY consider having a chat with Paypal, and ask for some advice on how to deal with reducing refunds/chargebacks.

      I sell using Paypal and Clickback.

      And I have close to zero refunds with Paypal. If I do have a customer complain the platform is there for us to work out the solution.
      Same experience here and that is the reason I stopped using ClickBank.
      My product with almost zero refunds with Paypal will have like 5% with
      ClickBank! That was really crazy. I just change the payment platform and
      refunds dropped to practically zero. Go figure.

      -Ray Edwards
      Signature
      The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10395809].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author professorrosado
      Originally Posted by Makabongwe Maseko View Post

      Please Clickbank you should REALLY consider having a chat with Paypal, and ask for some advice on how to deal with reducing refunds/chargebacks.

      I sell using Paypal and Clickback.

      And I have close to zero refunds with Paypal. If I do have a customer complain the platform is there for us to work out the solution.

      You should consider having something similar.

      Having your logo badges on our sites won't stop customers from gaming the system. In-fact its annoying.

      Concerned vendor.
      I do believe that Clickbank has a different business model than Paypal. I never had to pay to join Paypal, submit any files or have my site reviewed by Paypal like you do for Clickbank.

      The premise , as in all understanding, must prevail when we are judging subsequent actions or developments.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10395894].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author thedark
    Don't confuse things. Clickbank is not like Paypal, nor like JvZOO.

    Paypal is only a payment processor. The sales and everything is handled by the seller. They only deal with your money and sometimes disputes arbitration. All invoices are under your name, you are responsible for sales or VAT taxes.

    Jvzoo is an affiliate network. He helps you to sell your product, but they do not take the money. The money goes straight into your account. In fact, if you don't care about affiliates, then there is no point in using Jvzoo.

    You need both Jvzoo and Paypal to work.

    Clickbank is both an affiliate network and a payment processor. This situation makes Clickbank the end-user seller of the software. All invoices and bank statements are in clickbank's name. You are getting paid directly by clickbank. It is like a publisher for authors. The author get a percent of the publisher sales. The publisher takes care of everything. Jvzoo is like a market where you go to sell your own products and get the money directly from the buyer.


    As a Clickbank alternative, you can try RevenueWire. I have moved from clickbank to them and I don't have to worry about such things.
    Signature

    Automatically add affiliate links in your website content with Auto Affiliate Links

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10395926].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      Originally Posted by thedark View Post

      Don't confuse things. Clickbank is not like Paypal, nor like JvZOO.

      Paypal is only a payment processor. The sales and everything is handled by the seller. They only deal with your money and sometimes disputes arbitration. All invoices are under your name, you are responsible for sales or VAT taxes.

      Jvzoo is an affiliate network. He helps you to sell your product, but they do not take the money. The money goes straight into your account. In fact, if you don't care about affiliates, then there is no point in using Jvzoo.

      You need both Jvzoo and Paypal to work.

      Clickbank is both an affiliate network and a payment processor. This situation makes Clickbank the end-user seller of the software.
      First off, thanks for telling us your views. Although the issue at hand is more about ClickBank's recent unethical behavior and not the terminology that should be used to describe them, I'd like to share my thoughts on what you've said.

      I think it's a bit of a leap to say that because they're both an affiliate network and a payment processor, ClickBank is therefore the end-user seller (or "retailer.") An affiliate network is not a retailer, and neither is a payment processor. I don't think being two things which are both not a retailer makes you a retailer.

      The only context in which ClickBank is a retailer is in their legal Terms of Service, where they label themselves as such. In reality, customers buy from product sellers, and if a product seller chooses to use ClickBank's services, ClickBank processes the payment.

      All invoices and bank statements are in clickbank's name. You are getting paid directly by clickbank.
      Yes, and this structure is useful when tax time comes around. But in terms of the actual relationships between buyers and sellers, and between sellers and ClickBank, the reality is that ClickBank is simply providing payment processing and affiliate management services.

      It is like a publisher for authors. The author get a percent of the publisher sales. The publisher takes care of everything.
      ClickBank actually takes care of very little except payment processing and affiliate management. A product seller produces the product entirely on their own, creates and hosts the website, drives traffic to the website (or shares a percentage with an affiliate for doing so), convinces visitors to buy the product once they're on the website, delivers the product to the buyers, and provides the buyers with support after the sale.

      As a Clickbank alternative, you can try RevenueWire. I have moved from clickbank to them and I don't have to worry about such things.
      Thanks for that tip. I'll have to check them out. It's clear from this thread that many others who currently use ClickBank's services are also looking for alternatives.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10396413].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author myob
        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        Which is what, exactly?
        Your obscuration seems to be glaring.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        What you proceed to post after this (quoted below) really didn't require a lengthy and distracting battle over what you see as correct terminology.
        On the contrary, it seems even this preliminary explanation was much too premature.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        They provided two credit card related justifications for their scheme to take over all of our websites:

        1. They claimed that buyers are getting confused when they see "ClickBank" on their credit card statements, and that this is causing a problematic number of chargebacks.

        The reality is that buyers pay on a ClickBank branded order form, they receive order confirmation emails from ClickBank, and the vendor's "Thank You" page tells them their credit card statement will say "ClickBank." There may be some small number of imbeciles who still don't understand why they're seeing "ClickBank" on their credit card statements after all that, but enough to justify ClickBank taking such extreme and invasive actions against all of the vendors and affiliates who uses their services?

        I don't buy that for a second, and not just because I doubt this type of confusion happens that often (although I do doubt it).

        When a buyer is confused about why something appears on their card statement, and they file for a chargeback, it initiates a process during which the merchant has an opportunity to explain why the charge was valid, what it was for, etc. The buyer is no longer wondering what the charge was for at that point - problem solved on that count. If the chargeback still happens at the end of this process, it's not due to confusion about that why ClickBank is on the buyer's credit card statement.

        In addition, even if you do believe this is really a problem, there are many other less damaging and invasive steps ClickBank could try in order to address it. No responsible company would take such extreme (and conveniently self-serving on their part) actions against their customers before trying every other possible alternative.

        Now, let's look at the second justification they gave us.

        2. Fraud moving online

        It's pretty obvious that putting a ClickBank graphic on a page against the owner's will, having vendors' and affiliates' traffic be stolen by ClickBank, redirecting vendors' domain names to ClickBank URLs, etc., does not address the issue of online credit card fraud.
        They have considered many solutions for getting this problem under control, which I don't see how the final resolution of placing a trust badge would be intrusive. There is no evidence whatsoever that I've seen for Clickbank to "take over" vendors' websites or "steal traffic".


        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        Like others have said, I don't believe that was the impetus behind their attempt to take over all of our websites. Why would the banks demand that ClickBank do things which do not address the issue of credit card fraud and are not the logical solution to the issue of customers being confused when they see "ClickBank" on their credit card statements (assuming that is even a real problem)?
        Again, there is no evidence to support your dogged assertion that Clickbank has a scheme to take over all of your websites. These credit card issues are a global problem, and merchants are required by credit card issuers to manage this risk or face exposure to liability for loses.


        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        Satisfactory to whom? I see many more people who want ClickBank to leave their websites alone than people who are happy about being forced to put ClickBank's header and brand at the top of their websites.
        This apparently was a compromise acceptable to Clickbank's merchant account directives.


        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        ClickBank agrees with their own Terms of Service? Shocking!
        You agreed to the Terms of Service as well, when you signed up as a vendor.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        First off, we're only "bound" by ClickBank's terms for as long as we use ClickBank, so that's a problem with a solution.
        If you no longer agree to Clickbank's terms of service, there may be other options available to you as suggested in this thread.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        Second, they're free to put whatever reality-defying legalese they want in their Terms of Service - that doesn't mean I become blind to the actual reality of the customer/seller relationship that's happening.
        Their Terms of Service are the reality you have to work with.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        If ClickBank's legal terms say that a dog is a cat, and you tell me it's true and I must agree with you because ClickBank says this in their Terms of Service, which I agreed to in order to use their services, you're going to get the same reaction you're getting now.
        Firstly, this hypothetical scenario would never happen because I have not seen anything frivolous about Clickbank in over 19 years as an affiliate. Secondly, you are being completely irrational with such a comparison.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        Reality over legalese.
        Go right ahead and give Clickbank's legal team a sense of your "reality" over the ClickBank Client Contract. In their eyes, you're a dog (client), not a cat (customer).

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        It's not an alternate reality. It's actual reality. What actually happens.

        The fact that ClickBank's Terms of Service claim things which conflict with reality puts them in the category of an alternate reality, not the other way around.
        Whatever you've been smoking, it seems to be working to impair any sense of reality.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        It is absolutely not a customer/seller relationship.
        Try telling that to Clickbank, not me.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        To your points, vendors do most of the after-purchase customer service for their buyers. I know this because I'm a vendor and I do this for my buyers, not ClickBank. ClickBank just processes the payment. If a customer is requesting support and a vendor is unresponsive, then ClickBank will default to a refund, which only makes sense as they are the one who processed the payment.
        That's nice. I wish all vendors would treat their buyers like that.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        Please explain why you're prejudiced against product sellers who use ClickBank's payment processing and affiliate management services. It's obviously not because you dislike the fact that they use ClickBank, since (unlike most of the people here who use ClickBank's services) you're perfectly happy with ClickBank's recent behavior.

        So why, then?
        Actually, I understand Clickbank's recent behavior, and have adjusted all of my affiliate marketing processes to accommodate these changes. I'm not going to get into any specifics here, but I was forced by these changes to radically alter hundreds of landing pages and nearly two thousand autoresponder messages. Almost all of the vendor sales pages for products which I promote are so objectionable, that I routinely bypassed them directly to the Clickbank payment page. So I'm not happy with Clickbank's recent actions, but they were necessary.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        I'm not the overly sensitive type. What I don't like is when someone comes into a thread where people are talking about an issue that could be disastrous for their businesses and livelihoods, starts using terms like "hissy fit" and "bitching and complaining," and then openly expresses their prejudice against everyone. It's kind of not cool.

        I very seriously doubt you're the kind of person in real life that you seem to be based on your participation in this thread. I wish you would reconsider whatever has made you prejudiced against such a large and diverse group of people, and either participate constructively or just move on to another thread that you might enjoy more.
        I will take this under advisement, and suggest you do the same. But FYI, this forum is a training platform and these posts are used in webinars for my JV partners and prospective Clickbank vendors.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        I am very aware of how many people are following the discussion in this thread.
        You actually have no clue about how many people are really watching this.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        You really could have fooled me, but OK. This is less important to me than the issue at hand.
        Seriously. I think you're a good guy, but perhaps a bit irrational and misguided.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        There's nothing absurd about my position on this topic (and many others in this thread have taken the same position). Anyone who reads my posts can see that I've thought carefully about this issue, and I'm explaining and defending my views in a thorough and deliberate way.
        Actually, you seem to be putting in a lot of time in defending some rather bizarre notions.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        A significant portion of my income is derived from selling products for which I use ClickBank's payment processing and affiliate management services. When they engage in abusive and unethical behavior that threatens to cause instability in my business, I take that very seriously. Especially since I know that many people are unfortunately more reliant on ClickBank's services than I am, and therefore this type of unethical behavior on ClickBank's part could cause even more harm to their businesses.
        There is nothing I have seen from Clickbank's recent actions that would even suggest they are involved in any "abusive" or "unethical" behavior that threatens to cause instability in any of their clients' business. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, my sales have dropped about 6% since implementation of Clickbank's trust badge, but it appears initially this may actually be the result of having to revert back to vendor sales pages and perhaps other unrelated factors. It's much too early to measure the effect of how these changes will affect business.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10396803].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author trevord92
          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          They have considered many solutions for getting this problem under control, which I don't see how the final resolution of placing a trust badge would be intrusive. There is no evidence whatsoever that I've seen for Clickbank to "take over" vendors' websites or "steal traffic".
          Any change in a website design has an impact - sometimes positive, sometimes negative.

          It's why split testing software is commonly used.

          And you can easily check Clickbank's earlier "solution" of providing a new URL and a banner at the top of every site - that was scrapped but was definitely a takeover bid.

          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          Again, there is no evidence to support your dogged assertion that Clickbank has a scheme to take over all of your websites. These credit card issues are a global problem, and merchants are required by credit card issuers to manage this risk or face exposure to liability for loses.
          Whilst I agree that credit card issues are global problem I disagree that putting a "trust badge" or anything else at the point of sale will make any difference at all.

          Putting in a Verified-by-Visa (or similar) would make a massive difference as it means the customer has to enter 3 characters from their private password before the transaction is completed and passes the risk from the vendor (Clickbank in this instance) to the issuing bank.
          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          You agreed to the Terms of Service as well, when you signed up as a vendor.
          Like most people, I tick the "I agree" box without reading the terms and conditions.

          Life's too short to read them every time you sign something online - as the 7,500 people who sold their soul a few years ago confirmed.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10396853].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          Your obscuration seems to be glaring.
          I don't know how to respond to that.

          On the contrary, it seems even this preliminary explanation was much too premature.
          How so?

          They have considered many solutions for getting this problem under control,
          Please explain why you believe it's actually a problem. I've gone into detail about the reasons why I believe it's not. Please clue me in on the reasons why you believe it is.

          If it really is a problem, there are many things ClickBank could try, and hasn't, before doing something so damaging and invasive (and conveniently self-serving) to their customers. They could make changes to the order form, they could make changes to the order confirmation emails, they could make changes to how a charge is identified on the buyer's credit card statement, etc. Instead, they jump to an attempt to take over their customers' websites, steal their traffic, and redirect their domain names to ClickBank URLs?

          How convenient for them.

          which I don't see how the final resolution of placing a trust badge would be intrusive.
          First off, I've already given a thorough explanation of why that's unlikely to be the final resolution, with the rest of the things they originally attempted coming back after they get their foot in the door with the header. If you have something to say in response to what I posted, I would be interested to hear it.

          Second, you don't see how it's intrusive to have another company's brand stuck at the top of your website against your will?

          There is no evidence whatsoever that I've seen for Clickbank to "take over" vendors' websites or "steal traffic".
          They tried to force customers to put a ClickBank header at the top of their websites, steal customers' traffic by putting a link to a ClickBank "marketplace" in that header, and redirect customers' websites to an IFRAME while replacing their domain names with ClickBank URLs.

          They're still trying to force customers to put ClickBank's brand at the top of their websites as we speak, even after putting the other parts of their scheme on hold.

          What they've tried and are still trying to do is not a matter of opinion. We all saw the announcements, blog posts and emails from ClickBank about this.

          Again, there is no evidence to support your dogged assertion that Clickbank has a scheme to take over all of your websites.
          That's precisely what they attempted to do. There's no denying it. Now that they've seen the backlash, they've issued another press release saying they won't do some of these things after all. But they're still trying to force everyone to put their own brand at the top of our websites against our will, and in my view it's very likely that they'll resume the rest once they get their foot in the door that way. I've provided a detailed explanation of why in a recent post. If you have anything to say in response to that, then by all means.

          These credit card issues are a global problem, and merchants are required by credit card issuers to manage this risk or face exposure to liability for loses ... This apparently was a compromise acceptable to Clickbank's merchant account directives.
          I've explained why I (along with others in this thread) don't believe that was the impetus for what they tried to do. If you have a response to what I said, please let me know.

          You agreed to the Terms of Service as well, when you signed up as a vendor.
          I'll quote myself:

          "Second, they're free to put whatever reality-defying legalese they want in their Terms of Service - that doesn't mean I become blind to the actual reality of the customer/seller relationship that's happening."

          And...

          "If ClickBank's legal terms say that a dog is a cat, and you tell me it's true and I must agree with you because ClickBank says this in their Terms of Service, which I agreed to in order to use their services, you're going to get the same reaction you're getting now."

          If you no longer agree to Clickbank's terms of service, there may be other options available to you as suggested in this thread.
          If they abandon the idea of forcing everyone to put their brand at the top of our websites against our will, then I may continue using their services, although it's not likely. I'm not sure they can ever be trusted again after everything they've attempted to do here.

          Their Terms of Service are the reality you have to work with.
          Their Terms of Service absolutely are not what dictates how I go about discussing something on a forum or the terminology I use in my posts. I am free to use accurate terminology and not use the reality-defying legalese contained in their Terms of Service.

          Firstly, this hypothetical scenario would never happen because I have not seen anything frivolous about Clickbank in over 19 years as an affiliate. Secondly, you are being completely irrational with such a comparison.
          I'm not saying the hypothetical scenario I presented about dogs and cats would happen. I think anyone can see that. It's a logical argument, and it's sound.

          Also, ClickBank was founded in 1998, so you would've been an affiliate for 17 years, and that's if you signed up at the moment they launched. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that was just a typo.

          Go right ahead and give Clickbank's legal team a sense of your "reality" over the ClickBank Client Contract. In their eyes, you're a dog (client), not a cat (customer).
          Please Google "client synonym" and note that the word "customer" is first on the list.

          And you can keep repeating the notion that what happens in reality is less relevant to the discussion than the reality-defying legalese in ClickBank's Terms of Service, but I've addressed that notion (more than once), so unless you have any specific responses to what I've said, it's probably time for that sideshow to end.

          Whatever you've been smoking, it seems to be working to impair any sense of reality.
          What I described is precisely what happens in reality.

          - The vendors and affiliates who seek out and use ClickBank's services are ClickBank's customers. This is self-evident, and you yourself have referred to them as ClickBank's "clients" or ClickBank's "business customers."

          - On the other hand, the people who seek out a vendor's product, visit the vendor's website, are convinced by the vendor to buy it, receive it from the vendor, and then receive support after the sale from the vendor, are the vendor's customers. The relationship described here is an obvious customer/seller relationship.

          - Those buyers generally have never heard of ClickBank, have no idea what they do, have zero interest in being their customers, and the only interaction they have with ClickBank is when a vendor uses their services to process the sale. Their relationship with ClickBank is not a customer/seller relationship.

          You're in the position of only being able to argue that the legalese in ClickBank's Terms of Service contradicts what actually happens. This should tell you that it's nonsense, but instead you're here trying to tell us that reality must not be reality because ClickBank says so.

          Try telling that to Clickbank, not me.
          You're the one posting to say otherwise in what amounts to a pointless distraction from the topic at hand, so I'm telling it to you. For what it's worth, ClickBank is following this thread also, although they don't post anything worthwhile.

          That's nice. I wish all vendors would treat their buyers like that.
          Do you have some evidence that most don't, to justify the prejudice that you openly expressed earlier?

          Actually, I understand Clickbank's recent behavior,
          I understand it quite well. That's why I find it so offensive, like many others who have participated throughout this thread.

          and have adjusted all of my affiliate marketing processes to accommodate these changes. I'm not going to get into any specifics here, but I was forced by these changes to radically alter hundreds of landing pages and nearly two thousand autoresponder messages.
          Instead of questioning your truthfulness on those numbers, I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt and say it sounds like ClickBank's changes have caused you quite a lot of hassle. I find it sad that you're still here defending their unethical behavior and working so hard to sidetrack the discussion into meaningless arguments over terminology. I think if you take a step back and think about it for awhile, you might realize they don't deserve your support.

          Almost all of the vendor sales pages which I promote are so objectionable, that I routinely bypassed them directly to the Clickbank payment page.
          Why do you promote the products of vendors whose sales pages you find objectionable? Do you believe that type of vendor suddenly becomes scrupulous when the time comes to deliver a quality product?

          So I'm not happy with Clickbank's recent actions,
          We've found some agreement here. You, like myself and most of the people who have participated in this thread, are not happy with ClickBank's recent actions.

          but they were necessary.
          This is where we disagree. I think I've provided a pretty thorough rundown of the reasons why their actions weren't necessary or justifiable in my last few posts. I haven't seen anything in your replies that addresses the substance of what I've said.

          I really think you should consider that maybe I and many others are right, and ClickBank's recent behavior has been not only unnecessary, but clearly unethical. I believe that once you open your mind to that possibility, you will be hard pressed to see it any other way.

          I will take this under advisement, and suggest you do the same.
          I'm not sure how it applies to me.

          But FYI, this forum is a training platform and these posts are used in webinars for my JV partners and prospective Clickbank vendors.
          This is a forum for discussions about internet marketing issues. Perhaps you're using it for a secondary purpose. I'm not sure why this would make me want to stop participating in a discussion.

          I also can't help but wonder how a forum discussion about this topic is useful for a webinar targeted at JV partners and prospective ClickBank vendors, other than to let those people know how many of ClickBank's customers are upset with them.

          You actually have no clue about how many people are really watching this.
          Enlighten us, then. I don't think anybody came here for riddles.

          Seriously. I think you're a good guy, but perhaps a bit irrational and misguided.
          I'm glad you're starting to take the high road a bit. To your point, anyone can read my posts and judge for themselves whether or not I'm presenting my views in a rational manner, and whether or not I'm misguided.

          Actually, you seem to be putting in a lot of time in defending some rather bizarre notions.
          I have no trouble defending the views I and so many other members hold precisely because they're not bizarre, and for you to comment on the time I'm spending when it's your own posts that I'm replying to is rather strange.

          There is nothing I have seen from Clickbank's recent actions that would even suggest they are involved in any "abusive" or "unethical" behavior that threatens to cause instability in any of their clients' business.
          They attempted to take over their customers' websites, put their own header and brand at the top, steal their customers' traffic with a link to their own "marketplace," and redirect their customers' domain names to ClickBank URLs.

          You don't see how having another company's brand stuck at the top of your website against your will, having your traffic stolen, and having your domain name replaced by the URL of a different website threatens to cause instability? You don't see how it's unethical?

          The majority of people who have participated in this thread understand it very easily. So many people understand it that ClickBank was forced to issue a press release and say they're not going to do some of these things after all (for now).

          Maybe you just don't like the idea of losing an argument. But a lot of people including myself would probably have a whole lot more respect for you if you simply acknowledged the obvious. There's no shame in it.

          As I mentioned earlier in this thread, my sales have dropped about 6% since implementation of Clickbank's trust badge, but it appears initially this may actually be the result of having to revert back to vendor sales pages and perhaps other unrelated factors. It's much too early to measure the effect of how these changes will affect business.
          I don't need to touch on the fact that your sales have dropped. What I will say is that having another company's brand stuck at the top of your website against your will is automatically going to affect business, unless the only business development you're ever going to do is list your product on ClickBank.

          Companies you want to develop a business relationship with aren't going to take you seriously with some other brand perched at the top of your website. I'm saying this as someone who has done business development work. Not gonna fly.

          I realize you personally don't care about that because you're not using ClickBank's services as a product seller. But you will certainly care if there's a direct reduction in affiliate sales that continues for long enough to become statistically significant (which I find likely, but we'll see) due to that header being on the sales page.

          Add in the possibility that ClickBank will bring back the other parts of their scheme once they get their foot in the door with the header, which in my view is very likely for the reasons I've explained in recent posts, and you can say goodbye to your hard-earned traffic as it disappears through that link in the header to their "marketplace."

          Think about what they've attempted to do, what they're still attempting to do now, and where things are likely to go in the future. Seriously, ask yourself whether you really support this company anymore.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10396922].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
            Originally Posted by myob View Post

            Before we can continue on to the next stage in addressing your so-called "concerns", there needs to be a clear understanding of some fundamental basics. Like it or not, Clickbank is an internet retailer, not a payment processor, and has established legally binding roles between vendors, affiliates, and their customers.

            What you have portrayed as "unethical" behavior by Clickbank is actually well within these legal rights, for which you agreed to upon becoming a vendor. Go ahead and read their TOS, specifically regarding your rights as a vendor. I'll wait.

            Originally Posted by myob View Post

            If your product bombs out, does Clickbank give you a refund of your registration fee? Real customers are assured a 90-day unconditional 100% money-back guarantee.

            Clickbank makes nearly all of their money from customer sales, not from vendors. Clickbank actually buys the product from vendors at a discount (7.5%), then sells it to customers at full price plus any applicable taxes or VAT. And if affiliates are involved in the sales process or JV arrangements, commissions are distributed by Clickbank, not vendors.

            Clickbank legally takes possession of the products, just as any other online/offline retailer, which effectively eliminates future vendor recourse such as customer service issues, refunds, etc. They judiciously protect their customers (ie buyers) from fraud, nefarious vendors, and even from dishonest or inept affiliates through a robust customer service department.
            The problem here is what is written by clickbanks terms, and how this would relate in the non digital world are two different things.

            For example, if CB was a Walmart.

            I can go to Walmart and buy a product. Walmart is taking a cut on the product - but they physically are housing that product in their store. I can return the product to Walmart, and they will either a.) try to put it back out for sale (perhaps at a discounted price as an open box item) or B.) return the item to the original source.

            Either way, it is clear that I bought "brand x" at the Walmart. If I go somewhere be it online or off and complain, I'm going to put the blame on "brand x."

            If I go back to Walmart and buy an open box product and there is a piece missing, I may be inclined to blame Walmart (if the missing piece was not disclosed).

            Clickbank is not actually housing products. For the stream of events in a sale to make sense (to me anyway) would be that Clickbank would actually FIRST BUY the products from the product creator, and then offer to sell them completely independent. There would be things like "number in stock" involved.

            Sometimes a product goes out of business - but you can still find old stock of that product in random stores.

            IMO, because they do not physically house the product themselves in some form, I don't view Clickbank as a true retailer. I view them as an affiliate management system and a service provider.

            https://support.clickbank.com/entrie...-First-Product

            1. Create a Pitch Page and Thank You Page

            To sell a product through ClickBank, you will need your own website, including web hosting and a registered domain name. You cannot sell a product through ClickBank using a web page hosted on free sites, and ClickBank does not provide hosting for web pages or assistance with design or coding of websites. You must create two pages on your website that are used to sell your ClickBank product: pages that we at ClickBank call a Pitch Page and a Thank You Page.
            End products and their actual delivery are not in the control of Clickbank.

            The mumbo jumbo legalize that they are buying the product at a discounted rate is just a fluffy way for them to take a larger cut of the pie IMO.

            Sure, they cover refund issues - but if I buy "a million ways to make money by Joe Schmoe" and I have a problem on page 47 on how to set up my sales funnel, Clickbank ain't gonna walk me through that.

            I went the other day to help someone buy an iwalk - which is basically a crutch like thing that can be used when you break your ankle. We went to a drugstore (retailer) to buy it, and the sales guy helped with how to put the thing together and actually helped with the fitting. He was an employee of the store but had full training on how the product worked.

            Clickbank at best is just an affiliate - and not a very good one at that. Even some affiliates who promote stuff help with real support issues on a product they've recommended in an effort to avoid that charge back.


            Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

            once again, Clickbank finds one of the most useless posts in this thread and responds to it.

            Thanks for nothing

            al
            Nothing for who?
            Signature

            "May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10397039].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    funny… SOMEONE keeps saying "lots of others are worried about this too"…. yet he's the only one posting… and posting 28 page replies each time…

    hmmmm…

    bottom line dude. if you aren't happy, leave CB.

    no ones holding a gun to your head.

    the fact you have to keep trashing CB, while posting these retarded 28 page replies each time is comical and yet sad…. sad you have nothing else in your life to do than to sit here all day long complaining over and over and over arguing with everyone over insignificant nonsense.

    but its comical watching this trainwreck
    Signature

    “Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.”
    ― Dalai Lama XIV

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10397279].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      funny… SOMEONE keeps saying "lots of others are worried about this too"…. yet he's the only one posting… and posting 28 page replies each time…

      hmmmm…
      If you like, I can make a list of all the people who have posted in this thread about how unhappy they are with ClickBank's recent behavior.

      I think the fact that ClickBank had to issue a press release and put some of their plans on hold due to the backlash is proof enough that lots of others are worried about this too.

      bottom line dude. if you aren't happy, leave CB.

      no ones holding a gun to your head.
      That doesn't mean it's not worth discussing what they're doing. Of course, if you're not interested in participating in or reading such a discussion, nobody is forcing you. I really don't get what you're upset about.

      the fact you have to keep trashing CB,
      I'm not happy with ClickBank, that much is true. And I'm not alone on that.

      But I think "trashing" is an unfair characterization. I've been providing a thorough analysis, explaining my views in a calm and rational manner, and defending my views when they're challenged. Anyone can go back over my posts and decide for themselves if my participation in this thread has been substantive or not. They can do the same for your posts, or anyone else's.

      I don't really understand why you don't want to participate in any substantive discussion on this issue, and yet you keep posting from time to time to attack people who do. Does it make you so unhappy that other people are talking about something you're personally not interested in? I don't get it.

      while posting these retarded 28 page replies each time is comical and yet sad…. sad you have nothing else in your life to do than to sit here all day long complaining over and over and over
      I have other things to do in my life, and I'm doing them. I'm also participating in this discussion thread, because the issue is important to me. I find it much harder to understand why you take your valuable time to post when you clearly aren't interested in participating in this discussion.

      arguing with everyone
      Like me, most of the people who have posted here aren't happy with ClickBank's recent behavior. I've argued with very few people in this thread.

      over insignificant nonsense.
      My focus has been on the topic that the thread is about. When others have brought up other issues, I've addressed what they've said, but I've consistently tried to steer the discussion back to the topic at hand.

      but its comical watching this trainwreck
      I don't understand why you're so angry, but if you're getting any enjoyment out of being here, I suppose that's a good thing.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10397405].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      Hey Dave,

      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      dont bitch here guys…no one is gonna give a f*ck... hit your reps up or post in the CB platinum group to them…

      <snip>

      @ John, if you were in the top 5% of vendors as you say, you'd already know wtf is going on like the rest of us, and wouldn't be posting some of the stuff you're posting…

      all of our reps already told us whats going on weeks ago, and your rep would have already called you to tell you whats going on…

      plus to answer your question I'm very good friends with many of the top 1% of vendors and we all chat regularly (like derek and my buddy who has the #1 offer on the network).
      You seem to have a rather bloated image of your own importance/authority.

      If you really have some "inside information" on this issue as a result of your "platinum status" or your "regular chats with the top 1%"... feel free to share that information here. Enlighten us.

      So far you have added nothing substantive to this discussion.

      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      funny… SOMEONE keeps saying "lots of others are worried about this too"…. yet he's the only one posting… and posting 28 page replies each time…

      hmmmm…
      Personally, I'm glad that Jon has taken up the banner on this issue. He's done a pretty consistent job of making the necessary points, and the poor newbies on here wouldn't realize what was happening if he hadn't been willing to rebut the arguments that have been posted to justify ClickBank's behavior.

      Feel free to classify me as one of those "lots of others".

      Thankfully, I haven't had to post that often, because Jon is doing a very credible job on his own. I don't know where he finds the time, and am sure that I could not.

      I'm also sure that I would not be able to maintain my composure when trying to discuss the issues with anyone as "thick" as he has had to deal with.


      You, on the other hand, have had nothing to contribute except to try to convince the readers of your own importance (I, and I suspect others, just aren't that impressed), and to try to trash Jon's efforts without posting any rebuttal of his arguments, at all. Pretty lame.

      the fact you have to keep trashing CB, while posting these retarded 28 page replies each time is comical and yet sad…. sad you have nothing else in your life to do than to sit here all day long complaining over and over and over arguing with everyone over insignificant nonsense.
      You're right... say something significant so there will be something more to argue with.

      edit
      Note that ClickBank has commented in this thread as recently as today, and has yet to respond to anything but the ability to render the trust badge in multiple languages, and their new product delivery option for hosting vendor download files. NONE of Jon's points has been addressed by ClickBank, at all. They've just chosen to ignore the primary topic of the conversation.
      Signature

      Sid Hale
      Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10398402].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author nolan59
        "lots of others" ARE following this thread and not replying to the trolls because Jon is doing a perfect job at answering them.

        Ditto about CB STILL not answering or replying to any of the REAL issues / concerns of this thread
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10398481].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author ClickBank
        Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

        NONE of Jon's points has been addressed by ClickBank, at all. They've just chosen to ignore the primary topic of the conversation.
        Hi Sid Hale (and others),

        Many of the assertions in this thread regarding 'ClickBank's attempt to steal' or act in an 'unethical' manner are absolutely false. We have been working in partnership with our clients since 1998 and will continue to do so for many years to come.

        We have issued several emails, blog posts and knowledge base articles to explain our motivations and the driving forces behind these changes. This thread has been quite active, but I have seen few comments directly quoting any of our posts on this matter so I will refer you to them along with key tidbits that you should consider:

        1) In our CEOs public letter, he stated: "Over the years, we've prioritized you over our card brand partners. Truth is ClickBank has supported the wishes of our vendors and affiliates to decrease the presence of our branding in the sales flow.The Card Brands Don't Like This. Our card brand partners have established guidelines around how to conduct business as an internet retailer. Frankly, we went too far in ignoring their rules." AND "Although the business was NEVER in jeopardy, ClickBank did have some very serious discussions with payment partners around paying attention to their guidelines." See the full statement here.

        2) There is a raging debate here in this thread about the definition of ClickBank's business model as (a) Internet Retailer (b) Payment Processor, etc. Some have asserted that this is mere 'legalese' and has no real implications on how a business is conducted. The truth is that legal and accounting principles matter and do affect business.

        Anyone who operates a business at a scale that exceeds the hobby-level understands this. The definition has legal implications for our business and also determines some very real requirements imposed on our businesses by the payment card networks. (Again, refer to #1 above in the point on how we've been discussing options with the card brands). Given the nature of this discussion, it would be best to fully review the information we have published at length about the differences between each of the types of businesses and how it affects the way we do business with you and the types of services we can offer you. Please read this knowledge base link. I know it is lengthy, but it is pertinent to this discussion and has more to do with our business operations than you may be willing to concede.

        3) There is a mandatory requirement that ClickBank branding be more prominent in the sales funnel. We had several of our top clients who have generated well over $100 Million on our platform, on site at our headquarters to discuss how we could best approach this requirement and have agreed to the current implementation of the Trust Badge (see knowledge base link here). An email notification is coming next week that will give the final timeline for implementation, which we anticipate will be in December. Vendors on our platform will be required to add this to their pages, if you continue to use us to sell your product. (Note: Affiliates do not need to have this javascript on their pages; it is a vendor requirement)

        We know that these requirements may be untenable for some clients. We always welcome your business but certainly understand if you can no longer use ClickBank as a result. In that case, we wish you the best of luck in your future business ventures.

        Thanks,
        The ClickBank Team
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10399202].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
          Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

          3) There is a mandatory requirement that ClickBank branding be more prominent in the sales funnel. We had several of our top clients who have generated well over $100 Million on our platform, on site at our headquarters to discuss how we could best approach this requirement and have agreed to the current implementation of the Trust Badge (see knowledge base link here). An email notification is coming next week that will give the final timeline for implementation, which we anticipate will be in December.
          You probably need to allow more time, and communicate harder. lots of cb clients are only dimly aware of what's going on, and by the time that your notification next week, are going to struggle to update all their pages before everything starts to wind down for xmas.
          Signature
          ClickBank Vendor?
          - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
          - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
          - Killer Graphics for Your Site
          SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10399270].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
            Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

            3) There is a mandatory requirement that ClickBank branding be more prominent in the sales funnel. We had several of our top clients who have generated well over $100 Million on our platform, on site at our headquarters to discuss how we could best approach this requirement and have agreed to the current implementation of the Trust Badge (see knowledge base link here). An email notification is coming next week that will give the final timeline for implementation, which we anticipate will be in December.
            (1) Reading the knowledge base article, there is a HUGE TECHNICAL PROBLEM with implementing this for many (probably many hundreds, possibly 1000+) of your vendors, even if they want to comply.

            The problem is "The CBTB request must come from the hop target domain."

            This basically means it is impossible for CB vendors with multiple products under one account to comply (if the vendor owns more than one domain as most do), unless they redesign everything to be under a single website - obviously a major piece of work, especially before Xmas.

            However if CB made a small adjustment.... they could make it easy for such vendors to comply:

            Simply change the JS requirement to read/work:

            "The CBTB request must either come from the hop target domain or from the product's thankyou page domain."



            (2) Quite aside from this, there is a second BIG technical problem with the CBTB implementation at present:

            Some vendors have domains that are aliased, e.g. website.com and website.co.uk point to the same content, and it can be accessed as either.

            The hop link will generally only point to one of these (say the dot com), but the visitor might again be going through the other one (say the dot uk). The CBTB as described in the knowledge base article, will not work with these vendors. It will work for one domain alias, but fail for the other one.

            Again, if CB changed the CBTB JS requirement to read/work, then this would solve it (the vendor would sell product 1 on dot com, and product 2 on dot co uk or whatever).

            "The CBTB request must either come from the hop target domain or from the product's thankyou page domain."



            (3) Another issue, is the CBTB requirement won't work with affiliates direct linking to the order form. I'm guessing this is deliberate?????




            UPDATE: I have raised Point #1 as a CB support request - #283736 - hoping for an answer, as basically I'm willing to comply with the badge, but it's technically impossible for me to comply at present
            Signature
            ClickBank Vendor?
            - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
            - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
            - Killer Graphics for Your Site
            SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10399325].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author ClickBank
              Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

              (1) Reading the knowledge base article, there is a HUGE TECHNICAL PROBLEM with implementing this for many (probably many hundreds, possibly 1000+) of your vendors, even if they want to comply.

              The problem is "[B]The CBTB request must come from the hop target domain."

              (3) Another issue, is the CBTB requirement won't work with affiliates direct linking to the order form. I'm guessing this is deliberate?????
              Hi SunilTanna,

              We actually made a change to the implementation that will remove the hop target domain requirement. This change is scheduled to deploy on Monday. Regarding the affiliates direct linking to the order form, we currently do not require that they implement the trust badge on their landing pages.

              That said, affiliates using this model, without the hop system, run the risk of losing commissions as our system does not track an affiliate referral in this method; there are work arounds, but they involve manipulating our system outside of our policies which could be considered network abuse and jeopardize the account. We strongly discourage this method.

              Thanks,
              The ClickBank Team
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10399342].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
                Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

                UPDATE: I have raised Point #1 as a CB support request - #283736 - hoping for an answer, as basically I'm willing to comply with the badge, but it's technically impossible for me to comply at present
                Sunil

                I also raised the above point with ClickBank in addition to this one
                ==> There is only one CBTB setting for a multi-item account but individual items would ideally require their own customization.

                ,
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10399365].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
                Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

                Hi SunilTanna,

                We actually made a change to the implementation that will remove the hop target domain requirement. This change is scheduled to deploy on Monday.
                Good. I will try the trust badge on Tuesday then!

                Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

                Regarding the affiliates direct linking to the order form, we currently do not require that they implement the trust badge on their landing pages.
                Thanks for the information, that is a useful point

                Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

                That said, affiliates using this model, without the hop system, run the risk of losing commissions as our system does not track an affiliate referral in this method;
                I think all affiliates using this method are aware of the risks, however there are circumstances where it is useful, and the risk of losing a commission tiny, for an affiliate to say "BUY THIS NOW" and link to the order form.

                I am very glad you are continuing to support this.

                Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

                there are work arounds, but they involve manipulating our system outside of our policies which could be considered network abuse and jeopardize the account. We strongly discourage this method.
                I don't think you need to be coy, because these so-called work-rounds have been discussed on the Warriorforum and elsewhere (however, since you are being coy, I assume you refer to "Co**** St******").

                That said, I think most people on this forum would agree these so-called work-rounds are network abuse.

                I actually think it would be best, if you simply said "Co**** St******" is not allowed under any circumstances, rather dancing around the issue.
                Signature
                ClickBank Vendor?
                - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
                - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
                - Killer Graphics for Your Site
                SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10399444].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author myob
                Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

                Regarding the affiliates direct linking to the order form, we currently do not require that they implement the trust badge on their landing pages.
                This has been my primary linking method, and I thought this would not have been allowed under Clickbank's new compliance requirements. Fantastic news for affiliates!
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10400801].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author trevord92
          Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

          2) There is a raging debate here in this thread about the definition of ClickBank's business model as (a) Internet Retailer (b) Payment Processor, etc. Some have asserted that this is mere 'legalese' and has no real implications on how a business is conducted. The truth is that legal and accounting principles matter and do affect business.

          Anyone who operates a business at a scale that exceeds the hobby-level understands this. The definition has legal implications for our business and also determines some very real requirements imposed on our businesses by the payment card networks. (Again, refer to #1 above in the point on how we've been discussing options with the card brands). Given the nature of this discussion, it would be best to fully review the information we have published at length about the differences between each of the types of businesses and how it affects the way we do business with you and the types of services we can offer you. Please read this knowledge base link. I know it is lengthy, but it is pertinent to this discussion and has more to do with our business operations than you may be willing to concede.
          Just because something is in terms and conditions doesn't make it true.

          For instance, Sony's terms and conditions state various things that effectively claim that they are exempt from European distance selling laws - clearly not the case.

          At best, Clickbank is a dropshipper - it never handles the actual product and (as others have pointed out) it rarely handles product delivery or and never provides support except to process refunds.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10399336].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author ClickBank
            Originally Posted by trevord92 View Post

            Just because something is in terms and conditions doesn't make it true.

            For instance, Sony's terms and conditions state various things that effectively claim that they are exempt from European distance selling laws - clearly not the case.

            At best, Clickbank is a dropshipper - it never handles the actual product and (as others have pointed out) it rarely handles product delivery or and never provides support except to process refunds.
            Hi trevord92,

            Here are just a few of the services we provide, as articulated by this link, under our model as an Internet Retailer, that go beyond what you listed:

            1. We register to pay VAT tax in 30+ countries. We calculate how much tax should be charged for that VAT territory, collect it from the consumer and remit it to the taxing authority.
            2. We register to pay sales tax for every US territory. Currently, we track different tax rates for nearly 10,000 jurisdictions and pay the applicable sales tax for each sale. Rates differ between different types of products and we take care of this for people selling through our platform.
            3. Since we are an Internet Retailer, you do not need either a merchant account or to run the risk of using payment facilitators (There are real differences here - see the link above) who may elect to freeze your account because you ran a sales launch. Merchant account underwriting can be time consuming and we save you from that work.
            4. Since we agree to sell your product, we screen for FTC compliance issues as part of our approval process. This helps protect everyone involved.
            5. We handle all PCI security requirements. You do not need to worry about any of that since we're the retailer.
            6. We provide research and disputes for chargebacks that you never even see because we're the retailer. This saves you money but we don't announce that in your accounts.
            7. The card brand policies apply to us, not you. This, by the way, is what spurred all these changes as I refer to in a prior post regarding the letter from our CEO to our clients.
            8. Since we are the retailer, we're paying the affiliates. Many of our affiliates appreciate receiving trusted, reliable deposits for commissions on a regular basis. This would not happen as a payment processor.
            9. We provide all the screening and fraud controls for JV Partners, Vendors, Consumers and Affiliates. Since we are retailing and paying affiliates, we want to have the best of breed controls in place to ensure no commissions are paid to individuals on the terrorist watch list or who may be trying to conduct credit card fraud.

            And yes, we take the consumer's phone calls and explain to them what they purchased, help them find the vendor's technical support contacts and deal with a range of issues they may have... in addition to processing refunds as you stated.

            Thanks,
            The ClickBank Team
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10399387].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
          Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

          Hi Sid Hale (and others),

          Many of the assertions in this thread regarding 'ClickBank's attempt to steal' or act in an 'unethical' manner are absolutely false.
          I don't think there's any way to argue that telling all of your customers they have to put your header and branding at the top of their websites, and then putting a link to your "marketplace" in that header to siphon their hard-earned traffic away to your own site, is not stealing their traffic.

          I do think there's clear evidence of unethical behavior here.

          The things ClickBank has attempted to do to your customers (some of which you're still attempting to do, while other parts appear likely to be back in the future) are extremely damaging and invasive. I don't think any rational observer can disagree. And the justifications that have been provided don't add up to me and many others. This has been discussed a number of times throughout this thread, and I will touch on it again further below.

          We have been working in partnership with our clients since 1998 and will continue to do so for many years to come.

          We have issued several emails, blog posts and knowledge base articles to explain our motivations and the driving forces behind these changes. This thread has been quite active, but I have seen few comments directly quoting any of our posts on this matter so I will refer you to them
          The claims ClickBank has made have been discussed here extensively, but it hasn't been necessary to quote them because everyone is aware of who made them. Quoting typically happens here on the forum so people know who is addressing whom.

          along with key tidbits that you should consider:

          1) In our CEOs public letter, he stated: "Over the years, we’ve prioritized you over our card brand partners. Truth is ClickBank has supported the wishes of our vendors and affiliates to decrease the presence of our branding in the sales flow.The Card Brands Don’t Like This. Our card brand partners have established guidelines around how to conduct business as an internet retailer. Frankly, we went too far in ignoring their rules." AND "Although the business was NEVER in jeopardy, ClickBank did have some very serious discussions with payment partners around paying attention to their guidelines."
          "Partners" plural? How did this come to be? Did ClickBank approach them, or did they coincidentally approach ClickBank at the same time?

          Why would payment partners want ClickBank to do the things you've attempted to do when these actions clearly don't address the issue of online credit card fraud (which is one reason ClickBank has provided) and aren't a rational approach to dealing with the supposedly rampant problem of buyers being confused when they see "ClickBank" on their credit card statements (which is the other reason ClickBank has provided)?

          2) There is a raging debate here in this thread about the definition of ClickBank's business model as (a) Internet Retailer (b) Payment Processor, etc. Some have asserted that this is mere 'legalese' and has no real implications on how a business is conducted. The truth is that legal and accounting principles matter and do affect business.

          Anyone who operates a business at a scale that exceeds the hobby-level understands this.
          Of course legal and accounting principles matter and do affect business. But calling yourselves a retailer and claiming that our customers are actually your customers in your Terms of Service is a matter of legal convenience. When buyers seek out our products, come to our websites, are convinced by us to make purchases, receive those products from us, and then receive support from us after the sale, they're our customers, not ClickBank's.

          Vendors and affiliates are the ones who seek out and use ClickBank for your payment processing and affiliate management services. Our customers don't know who ClickBank is, and they don't care. So in a discussion about the practical workings of ClickBank and the customer/seller relationships that are in play, it's accurate to say ClickBank provides payment processing and affiliate management services, and is not a retailer.

          The fact that ClickBank is now trying to actually make our customers their customers and put their brand front and center is what so many of us find highly disturbing. As a matter of legal and accounting convenience, ClickBank can do whatever it wants. But we are using ClickBank's services for payment processing and affiliate management, not so you can commandeer our customers.

          The definition has legal implications for our business and also determines some very real requirements imposed on our businesses by the payment card networks.
          Please be specific as to whether these requirements include forcing your customers to put your brand at the top of their websites, stealing their traffic with a link to your "marketplace," and changing their domain names to ClickBank URLs.

          I would very much like to hear ClickBank specifically say the credit card companies actually required you to do these things. The announcements from ClickBank simply implied this by saying the card companies are requiring you to make changes, and then proceeding to announce these things.

          Of course, we already know ClickBank was not actually being forced by the credit card companies to do some of these things, because now that it's clear what a backlash this whole scheme has caused, ClickBank has decided not to do them (for now).

          Given the nature of this discussion, it would be best to fully review the information we have published at length about the differences between each of the types of businesses and how it affects the way we do business with you and the types of services we can offer you. Please read this knowledge base link. I know it is lengthy, but it is pertinent to this discussion and has more to do with our business operations than you may be willing to concede.
          I've seen that, and I'm sure many others have also. It's quite long and contains a lot of information about different approaches to payment processing, and it touts some of the reasons for using ClickBank towards the end, but it leaves many of the questions your customers have raised unanswered.

          3) There is a mandatory requirement that ClickBank branding be more prominent in the sales funnel. We had several of our top clients who have generated well over $100 Million on our platform, on site at our headquarters to discuss how we could best approach this requirement and have agreed to the current implementation of the Trust Badge
          What works for a handful of inner circle vendors selling made-for-ClickBank products might not work for the rest of your customer base. I'm not sure why their agreement should be relevant to us. Also, were any perks offered to these vendors as part of these discussions?

          An email notification is coming next week that will give the final timeline for implementation, which we anticipate will be in December. Vendors on our platform will be required to add this to their pages, if you continue to use us to sell your product. (Note: Affiliates do not need to have this javascript on their pages; it is a vendor requirement)

          We know that these requirements may be untenable for some clients. We always welcome your business but certainly understand if you can no longer use ClickBank as a result. In that case, we wish you the best of luck in your future business ventures.
          I predict that other payment processors and affiliate networks are going to have a field day. I don't say that with pleasure, because up until this whole fiasco I was a huge fan of ClickBank. I really hope this works out in the end for everyone, but I remain very concerned.

          Now, I do have some other questions:

          - In ClickBank's mea culpa over the attempted rollout of this whole scheme, you said the IFRAME implementation will never be back. However, you did not say that putting a link on our sites to your "marketplace" will never be back. You only said you won't do this with links that don't support attribution. Does this mean ClickBank may still try to put links on our sites that siphon away our traffic to your "marketplace," causing our sales to decrease and replacing them with only a percentage commission on the sale of other people's products (assuming a sale even happens after visitors leave our sites)?

          - Did ClickBank or did ClickBank not have meetings prior to the rollout of this scheme in which these changes were conceived to move ClickBank towards the goal of becoming a consumer-oriented brand? Was the timing of this rollout, ClickBank's repositioning of yourselves as a "global retailer with 200,000,000 customers," and the conveniently self-serving nature of these changes for such a goal all a coincidence... and the credit card companies really made ClickBank do these things?
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10399517].message }}
        • Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post


          We know that these requirements may be untenable for some clients. We always welcome your business but certainly understand if you can no longer use ClickBank as a result. In that case, we wish you the best of luck in your future business ventures.
          If that's the case then the best of luck to you too Clickbank. I guess I'll be off to another affiliate platform.

          I just dislike the idea of your badge messing with my sales copy. Now every customer or potential customer will just know the moment they land on my website that they will be sold to since the first thing they will see your badge.

          Nice move!
          Signature

          Website Design | App Creation | Video Marketing | Social Media | Web Hosting

          ==> SlashTouch.Com

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10399655].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
            Jon, as much as I admire your indefatigability, and I'm at a loss as to what you hope to achieve with your recent post? Is there any answer CB could give that would satisfy you?

            The way I see it, you either live with the changes (subject to CB making any necessaries fixes/adjustments), or switch to another platform. If you stay for now, and CB then adds more changes in future that you don't like, you can always switch later.

            ================================================== ========

            Just so you know where I stand right now:

            Where I stand right now, is I don't particularly like the trust badge, but I can live with it, for now, provided:

            (1) it's not too obtrusive and doesn't interfere with the rest of the page too much (I'll put it at the bottom)

            (2) it's Javascript, not some stupid iframe

            (3) it doesn't have to be on every page - only those with a pay link. Since I ALREADY have interstitial pages before the pay link, it's easy for mt to add it to those. I think those interstitial pages are good practice anyway, as I use it to remind customers of what they're buying, how the charge will show on their CC bill, that will be a download not a physical product, etc.... so I don't mind CB having an element of them.

            (4) It works for multiple products/domains without me having to rebuild/redesign all my websites

            As far as I know, the badge, even though I don't particularly like it, does fit with my requiremetns (1) to (4).

            However if in future, CB does something crazy, like requiring their branding on every page of my sites, or iframes, or any of that idiocy, I'll leave in a heartbeat, and take a lot of other vendors with me.

            I also don't think CB is crazy or unethical (I hate that word in this context) or unfair - but they seem to

            (a) lack a some awareness of how their products are really marketed & sold (their effort to send customers to the marketplace, most of which does not even contain consumer-orientated products descriptions, is not evil, but laughably silly - I'd be surprised if the conversion rate of such traffic was even 0.01% - I bet it's less)

            and

            (b) lack some historical knowledge and/or technical knowledge of their platform. This inevitably happens to a degree in tech companies when people leave or change roles. The problems with the trust badge and multiple products/domains could have been avoided if they had retained that insider knowledge.

            BUT both these problems are solveable.

            Part (a) can be solved by CB empowering affiliates & vendors, listening to them, and helping vendors & affiliates sell more, rather than riding roughshod over them and CB trying to sell themselves. There is some indication they are again starting to do this.

            Part (b) - CB may lack a certain amount of knowledge in their organization, but people like Harvey & Miles who know CB inside-out, probably better than most of CB's own programmers, would be able to help them, if asked & listened to. So this links to part (a).

            This whole saga has dented my faith in CB. But I'm hoping CB will repay my faith/trust in them, and provided they keep listening, and don't do anything insane, I'm personally ready to give them a chance. But as I said, if they do something insane, I'll quit and help other vendors quit too.

            ================================================== ========

            Finally, in terms of moving the discussion forward, obviously it's up to you what to post. but in terms of moving this discussion forward, it seems to me that some of most useful things to discuss might be:

            I. Whether to switch platform or comply with the badge requirements

            II. If switching what platform to switch to, and how to implement the swtich

            III. If staying with CB, how to comply. Issues with implementing the badge. Tech issues/problems etc. Things that CB should be aware of, or needs to fix

            IV. If hedging your bets, how to comply for now, but have a transition plan in place
            Signature
            ClickBank Vendor?
            - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
            - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
            - Killer Graphics for Your Site
            SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10399689].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
              Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

              Hi Sid Hale (and others),

              Many of the assertions in this thread regarding 'ClickBank's attempt to steal' or act in an 'unethical' manner are absolutely false. We have been working in partnership with our clients since 1998 and will continue to do so for many years to come.
              I've edited your reply to indicate what I think is/has been a large part of the problem since your initial announcement of the ClickBank header. Even in that statement, it is unclear as to whether you are speaking about the relationship with the vendors who supply the products you sell, or the ultimate purchaser of those products.

              You have to admit that it is difficult to think of your relationship with the ultimate purchaser as any kind of "partnership", since your only involvement with them has been to accept their payment.

              While you may have a help desk in place, it's difficult to believe that any sizable percentage of the the product purchasers make use of that function... especially since (according to you) a sizable percentage of those customers DO NOT recognize ClickBank as the seller when they see the purchase annotated on their credit card statement. (In reality, I think you're being flim-flammed.)

              Given the above, I have to assume that your reply is referring to the vendor(s) when you reference your "partnership with our clients".

              As I said before, a client IS a customer. ALL clients are customers, by definition, and in this context - the vendors who use your services to list their products are your customers.

              Your attempt to require the original ClickBank header (and even now, the ClickBank Trust Badge) on the merchant's site was 1) obviously announced without a thorough understanding of how some of your "partners and clients" would react to such an arbitrary move, and 2) was subsequently implemented despite a significant level of objection here in the Warrior Forum.

              You were receiving significant feedback, but chose to ignore your "partners and clients", altogether.

              That alone, should be sufficient reason for any ClickBank vendor to rethink their "partnership" with your organization, but then you further exacerbated the problem by announcing the ClickBank Trust Badge, which is only marginally better.

              An acceptable alternative was proposed here on the forum, of using the ClickBank order form (already in place, and it's your web page) to "brand" the payment process and identify ClickBank as the processor of those payments.

              You have acknowledged that the use of an "interstitial page" for display of the ClickBank Trust Badge is acceptable to ClickBank. Do you not realize that the ClickBank order form is functionally an "interstitial page" - and it requires NO javascript to be installed on any of your vendor partners pages?

              Is it any wonder that both the ClickBank header and now the ClickBank Trust Badge are seen to be thinly veiled attempts to create a visual relationship between your new Marketplace and the vendors sales pages... essentially usurping those assets as extensions to your Marketplace?




              Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

              (3) it doesn't have to be on every page - only those with a pay link. Since I ALREADY have interstitial pages before the pay link, it's easy for me to add it to those. I think those interstitial pages are good practice anyway, as I use it to remind customers of what they're buying, how the charge will show on their CC bill, that will be a download not a physical product, etc.... so I don't mind CB having an element of them.
              That's fine for you, Sunil, but from what I have seen... you are in the minority.

              Since the ClickBank order page is already there, perhaps they should do a better job of reminding customers what they are buying, and how that charge will show on their CC bill (since that is the reason they have given for needing any change in the first place).
              Signature

              Sid Hale
              Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10399899].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
              Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

              Jon, as much as I admire your indefatigability, and I'm at a loss as to what you hope to achieve with your recent post? Is there any answer CB could give that would satisfy you?
              These questions cut to the heart of the claims ClickBank is making and the purpose for their recent actions. I believe challenging them to provide direct answers is of critical importance, despite the fact (and indeed, because of the fact) that I don't think there are any good answers. Questions which have answers that please me aren't the only questions that are useful.

              The way I see it, you either live with the changes (subject to CB making any necessaries fixes/adjustments), or switch to another platform.
              When a company treats their customers this way, I think it's worth holding them to account, and not just resigning ourselves to choosing one of these two options and moving along. Of course, we all will choose one of these options in the end.

              Finally, in terms of moving the discussion forward, obviously it's up to you what to post. but in terms of moving this discussion forward, it seems to me that some of most useful things to discuss might be:

              I. Whether to switch platform or comply with the badge requirements

              II. If switching what platform to switch to, and how to implement the swtich

              III. If staying with CB, how to comply. Issues with implementing the badge. Tech issues/problems etc. Things that CB should be aware of, or needs to fix

              IV. If hedging your bets, how to comply for now, but have a transition plan in place
              I think those are great topics. But I also think that since ClickBank is finally available for questions on some of the core issues of their agenda and the claims they've made, now is the time to take that opportunity and ask hard questions about these things.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10399956].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                Another question for ClickBank:

                Assuming there is actually some requirement by the credit card companies for you to have your logo on all of our websites - a claim I've questioned in a recent post but will set aside momentarily for the purpose of this query - why are you insisting that it be in the form of a header or "trust badge?"

                Placing an unobtrusive graphic underneath the "buy" button would allow you to meet this technical requirement, if indeed such a requirement even exists. Very few of your customers would have been upset with this approach, provided that it didn't have a negative effect on conversions.

                The only thing this approach would not do is imply a broader connection in our customers' minds between our products and your "marketplace." It seems likely to me that this is why you find the approach unappealing.

                I think it's pretty clear to anyone who has been paying attention that ClickBank wants to become a consumer-oriented brand, a retail destination for consumers, an Amazon for digital products, if you will. And indeed, the things you've attempted to do, and the things you're still attempting to do, are all very convenient for such a purpose, so I find it difficult to believe you're actually being forced to do them by outside entities.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10399980].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author ovidiu
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      funny... SOMEONE keeps saying "lots of others are worried about this too".... yet he's the only one posting... and posting 28 page replies each time...
      That's because those of us who made millions of $ for info product companies and/or are growing their own company are too busy working. If you don't think blindly adding such an element to every one of your sales letter is likely to have a negative impact, you obviously haven't done enough split testing in your life.

      Every pixel on a page can drop conversions and it should be the way you want it, in a way that improves the sales process and, ultimately, conversions. This "banner" that already dropped conversions in its initial form goes against every copywriting course or article I've ever read.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10403235].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Paul Tai
    For those of you who still don't believe that CB is trying to "take over" your website, content, and clients...

    Go read today's email: "We want to host your eBooks, and deliver them to your customers... no need to host them on your website, we will do it for free."

    It's simple, they want you to become more and more of a commodity, and depend more and more on them.

    They want you to be more and more replaceable, to feel that you depend on CB... They know that charging 10 to 11% won't fly for very long, so they had to come up with something.

    Braintree and Stripe are rolling out features like "split payment" as a replacement of old affiliate models. CB is feeling the heat, bro ;-)
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10397309].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
      Originally Posted by Paul Tai View Post

      Go read today's email: "We want to host your eBooks, and deliver them to your customers... no need to host them on your website, we will do it for free."
      LOL, have to wonder if someone was up early this morning and saw my post.....


      And host them for free at what cost? Will there be CB branding on all the pages? Or is it just a download version of the product?

      Will be interesting to see how this rolls out.

      Not saying its a bad offer for someone with a tight budget. But might defeat those who would like to include some back end offers on a download page.

      If you have to build a site anyway to make your sales page, would be a waste not to pull your people back to your site for more opportunities to sell to them.
      Signature

      "May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10397368].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author ClickBank
        Originally Posted by Jill Carpenter View Post

        Not saying its a bad offer for someone with a tight budget. But might defeat those who would like to include some back end offers on a download page.

        If you have to build a site anyway to make your sales page, would be a waste not to pull your people back to your site for more opportunities to sell to them.
        Hi Jill Carpenter,

        With the Content Delivery service, you can also provide a Thank You Page URL in addition to having our platform host and deliver the binary download. This will ensure you can continue to provide backend offers and re-engage your buyers. See more in this knowledge base article about the new Content Delivery service.

        Hope this helps.
        The ClickBank Team
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10397419].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
          Miles, I wonder if you would share the reason you no longer seem concerned by ClickBank's actions, as you did in your original post?
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10397607].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
          I dont have time to review this in any detail due to personal commitments, but cb delivering some of the download content is potentially a good idea if implemented properly. Some of Cb's competitors have offered this for a decade plus (the software sales and digital river type platforms) - and in some cases they even offered a premium service option (customer pays a bit more which means more money for everyone) where the customer gets a physical cd with a copy of their download.

          The advantage is this service can eliminate a lot of support requests about redownloading.

          There are however some major dangers:

          1. Vendors need to keep control of thankyou pages.

          2. Cb doing the content delivery needs to be an option, NOT a requirement

          Both of these are needed both for marketing and to deliver more complex products which are not simply files that cb can snapshot and host. For example some vendors have very complex thankyou pages and post sale workflow, some vendors update products super frequently (daily or more often), some vendors stream their content, and some customize the thankyou and/or downloads specifically and uniquely for each customer.
          Signature
          ClickBank Vendor?
          - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
          - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
          - Killer Graphics for Your Site
          SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10397664].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author bigshot90210
    Not a fan.... no way... bad idea...this will change the landscape of the land. I see sales decreasing...
    Signature

    Get free information about my micro video
    http://pdsp.us/new_wso

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10397627].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author agmccall
    Food for thought.

    When clickbank starts hosting and delivering a vendors product, it will be clickbank that will be getting the delivery email address and will be building a buyers list. and not you

    al
    Signature

    "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10399160].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Paul Tai
      Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

      Food for thought.

      When clickbank starts hosting and delivering a vendors product, it will be clickbank that will be getting the delivery email address and will be building a buyers list. and not you

      al
      They also think that your customers are THEIR customers... they take the liberty of proposing to them your competitors' products after they buy your product. They also advertise themselves as "serving millions of customers..." they want to be "the go-to retailer of choice...

      They want you to be the commodity (replaceable), and they want to control as much of the customer experience as possible:

      - Scripts on your website (for tracking, analytics, remarketing, retargetting)

      - Their logo on your sales page (so, if the customer doesn't like the product, maybe they'll go checkout WHAT ELSE clickbank has to offer.)

      - They want to grow their brand, on your website: so the customer starts to build a relationship with THEM, over you... After all, you're just part of the platform - there must be OTHER sellers of the same kind of product.

      - Content Delivery Service: again, the customer will interact as much as possible with CB, and as little as possible with you.

      I'm leaving CB as soon as 2016 starts - especially if they enforce their crappy "badge" policy.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10399176].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author ClickBank
      Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

      Food for thought.

      When clickbank starts hosting and delivering a vendors product, it will be clickbank that will be getting the delivery email address and will be building a buyers list. and not you

      al
      Hi agmccall,

      As an Internet Retailer, we already gather every email address for every buying customer and have done so since the company's inception. The content delivery service does not change this.

      Any consumer who buys a product from us, gives us their contact information. We do so under published privacy policies which are vetted by TRUSTe.

      Thanks,
      The ClickBank Team
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10399209].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Paul Tai
    Yeah - most vendors HATE the idea of hosting a Clickbank banner, button, floating logo, or anything for that matter.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10399164].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Paul Tai
    Hmmm....

    A. If the badge was "just a graphic" for the clients to know that CB is involved, it would be html+css, NOT javascript (css property display:fixed could have any element in a positition that doesn't move, even if you scroll). Javascript is for tracking, and retargetting to the vendor's client.

    As an Internet Retailer, we already gather every email address for every buying customer and have done so since the company's inception. The content delivery service does not change this.

    Any consumer who buys a product from us, gives us their contact information. We do so under published privacy policies which are vetted by TRUSTe.

    Thanks,
    The ClickBank Team
    B. Am I the only one freaking out about this??!! I've been saying it a million times: they think Your clients are their clients!!

    C. There are other internet payment companies who offer "white label" payments: they nearly remove themselves completely from the sales process, they don't even send emails without your permission: Dwolla, Stripe, Braintree, Paymill, etc... Given that CB is an internet retailer, not a payment processor... we have to ask, WTF does a vendor need a retailer for? (other than for affiliate transactions)
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10400150].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Originally Posted by Paul Tai View Post

      Given that CB is an internet retailer, not a payment processor... we have to ask, WTF does a vendor need a retailer for? (other than for affiliate transactions)
      Clickbank has enumerated some of the services they provide to their clients (post 526). I'm not aware of any other network that provides such comprehensive services to their clients, retail customers, affiliates, and JV Partners.

      In my experience, conversions are magnitudes greater when retail customers recognize and understand they have additional layers of support and recourse beyond vendors or affiliates.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10400782].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
        Originally Posted by myob View Post

        Clickbank has enumerated some of the services they provide to their clients (post 526). I'm not aware of any other network that provides such comprehensive services to their clients, retail customers, affiliates, and JV Partners.
        Setting aside the "retail customers" terminology, which I've argued is misguided, ClickBank does offer some helpful features - but everyone has to decide for themselves whether those things outweigh the obvious negatives involved in their recent behavior. I and many others obviously don't think so. There are other companies that provide payment processing, affiliate management, and related services which can be used alone or in combination to achieve the results a product seller is looking for. ClickBank does not have us over a barrel such that we have to accept their behavior whether we like it or not.

        In my experience, conversions are magnitudes greater when retail customers recognize and understand they have additional layers of support and recourse beyond vendors or affiliates.
        It's pretty normal for buyers to have "additional layers of support and recourse" beyond what's available from the product seller. Many payment processors provide a way to inquire about or dispute a charge, and the buyer's bank or card company is always there to investigate or reverse a charge as well. Since you're implying that using ClickBank specifically causes conversions to be "magnitudes greater," I would love to see any data proving this to be true as compared to other payment processors.

        This has been my primary linking method, and I thought this would not have been allowed under Clickbank's new compliance requirements. Fantastic news for affiliates!
        I could see being relieved that this isn't among ClickBank's "compliance requirements" if you're using this linking method, but I'm not sure why you're so hyped up about it. Getting so excited that you'll be allowed to do something you've always been able to do highlights how uncertain things are with ClickBank and how many negative changes they've tried to roll out.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10401353].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
    Let me take a moment to reiterate that I am not an attorney, and the views I've posted throughout this thread are my opinions only. I believe them to be accurate, and it appears that most people agree, but I don't have access behind the scenes at ClickBank, and my analysis of the situation could be incorrect (although I believe it is correct, due to the reasons I've provided).
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10401834].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      ClickBank does not have us over a barrel such that we have to accept their behavior whether we like it or not.
      You're right, but if you choose to continue using Clickbank, it's highly recommended that you do align your marketing practices in compliance with their requirements. There have been a number of vendors which products I formerly promoted that have in fact moved on to other platforms.


      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      It's pretty normal for buyers to have "additional layers of support and recourse" beyond what's available from the product seller. Many payment processors provide a way to inquire about or dispute a charge, and the buyer's bank or card company is always there to investigate or reverse a charge as well. Since you're implying that using ClickBank specifically causes conversions to be "magnitudes greater," I would love to see any data proving this to be true as compared to other payment processors.
      The only data proving this is within my own testing and experience specific to promoting Clickbank (and Amazon) products. I did not intend to say nor imply anything in comparison to payment processors in general. Clickbank is not a "payment processor" (despite your dogged insistence), and does far more for their retail customers than any "payment processor" of which I am aware.

      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      I could see being relieved that this isn't among ClickBank's "compliance requirements" if you're using this linking method, but I'm not sure why you're so hyped up about it. Getting so excited that you'll be allowed to do something you've always been able to do highlights how uncertain things are with ClickBank and how many negative changes they've tried to roll out.
      It would have been a substantial expense for me to return to using hoplinks from direct payment page links. The custom pages I've been using for many years already brand Clickbank as the seller, with a rather conspicuous notice of their 90-day unconditional money-back guarantee and customer service contact information as a recourse against vendor default or unresolved dispute.

      In early split tests with custom pages, conversion rates averaged 6-10 times greater than vendor sales pages. So it's more of a sense of relief than "excitement" that my inadvertently prescient marketing style has remained remarkably relevant as Clickbank evolved.

      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      Let me take a moment to reiterate that I am not an attorney, and the views I've posted throughout this thread are my opinions only. I believe them to be accurate, and it appears that most people agree, but I don't have access behind the scenes at ClickBank, and my analysis of the situation could be incorrect (although I believe it is correct, due to the reasons I've provided).
      Is this a sign that you're beginning to crack?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10402201].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
        Originally Posted by myob View Post

        You're right, but if you choose to continue using Clickbank, it's highly recommended that you do align your marketing practices in compliance with their requirements. There have been a number of vendors which products I (formerly) promoted that have in fact moved on to other platforms.
        I would be hard pressed to disagree that those who still wish to continue using ClickBank after all of this will have to accept where they're going and comply with their directives.

        The only data proving this is within my own testing and experience specific to promoting Clickbank (and Amazon) products. I did not intend to say nor imply anything in comparison to payment processors in general.
        You made the comment about conversions being magnitudes greater in the context of a comparison between ClickBank and other networks. If you have any data proving this, please provide it.

        Clickbank is not a "payment processor" (despite your dogged insistence), and does far more for their retail customers than any "payment processor" of which I am aware.
        I disagree wholeheartedly, and I've explained the reasons for that. Barring some new response to what I've said, I think we've spent enough time on this. We've both made our views clear.

        It would have been a substantial expense for me to return to using hoplinks from direct payment page links. The custom pages I've been using for many years already brand Clickbank as the seller,
        I could see that being confusing to buyers since they're dealing with the product seller to access their purchase and for most support issues, not ClickBank. But if it's working for you, then by all means.

        with a rather conspicuous notice of their 90-day unconditional money-back guarantee and customer service contact information as a recourse against vendor default or unresolved dispute.
        FYI, it's actually 60 days, so if your pages are saying 90, you probably want to correct that.

        In early split tests with custom pages, conversion rates averaged 6-10 times greater than vendor sales pages. So it's more of a sense of relief than "excitement" that my inadvertently prescient marketing style has remained remarkably relevant as Clickbank evolved.
        Fair enough, although "evolved" seems a tad euphemistic given the nature of the things ClickBank has attempted to do.

        Is this a sign that you're beginning to crack?
        It's a sign that I don't want to get sued just for voicing the opinions I and so many other ClickBank customers hold. Please note that I said something similar in one of my first posts in this thread.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10402233].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author tholian15
    Wow! For a newbie like me, this some topic/thread. Just out of curiosity are there any other affiliate/vendor marketplaces just as good as clickbank?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10402606].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author ED1190
      Originally Posted by tholian15 View Post

      Wow! For a newbie like me, this some topic/thread. Just out of curiosity are there any other affiliate/vendor marketplaces just as good as clickbank?
      Jvzoo and WarriorPlus are two of the other top ones.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10402636].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      I would be hard pressed to disagree that those who still wish to continue using ClickBank after all of this will have to accept where they're going and comply with their directives.
      No one is being hard pressed to continue with Clickbank:

      "We know that these requirements may be untenable for some clients. We always welcome your business but certainly understand if you can no longer use ClickBank as a result. In that case, we wish you the best of luck in your future business ventures".

      Thanks,
      The ClickBank Team
      Note that they are referring to vendors as "clients", not customers.


      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      You made the comment about conversions being magnitudes greater in the context of a comparison between ClickBank and other networks. If you have any data proving this, please provide it.
      I corrected you before about your misquote regarding this comment. I don't see how you could so completely misunderstand my comment except perhaps to force-fit your own misguided perception of reality. This comment applied only to Clickbank; a comparison between vendor hype and my own custom sales pages. The conversion rate is worlds apart, and with apologies for any inconvenience, the actual data from internal split testing will not be published.


      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      I disagree wholeheartedly, and I've explained the reasons for that. Barring some new response to what I've said, I think we've spent enough time on this. We've both made our views clear.
      Clickbank had also made their views clear, and clearly disagrees with you wholeheartedly.


      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      I could see that being confusing to buyers since they're dealing with the product seller to access their purchase and for most support issues, not ClickBank. But if it's working for you, then by all means.
      FYI, these products have always been sold to buyers by Clickbank "since the company's inception" (quote from post 519), not by the vendors as I explained before, and so has Clickbank in this thread. There should be no further confusion by customers with the recent disclosure requirement.


      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      FYI, it's actually 60 days, so if your pages are saying 90, you probably want to correct that.
      BINGO! So then, you acknowledge and agree that Clickbank provides the product guarantee to their retail customers, which has nothing to do whatsoever with vendors. Good eye!


      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      Fair enough, although "evolved" seems a tad euphemistic given the nature of the things ClickBank has attempted to do.
      They have already given reasons for this recent change in their TOS. Your paranoid imagination continues to run amok. Read the Clickbank post #518.


      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      It's a sign that I don't want to get sued just for voicing the opinions I and so many other ClickBank customers hold. Please note that I said something similar in one of my first posts in this thread.
      ROFLMAO! You are now using the exact kind of "reality-defying legalese" for which you held in contempt throughout this thread. What ever happened to reality over legalese? I have a feeling this thread is going to be getting a lot more fun.

      Originally Posted by tholian15 View Post

      Wow! For a newbie like me, this some topic/thread. Just out of curiosity are there any other affiliate/vendor marketplaces just as good as clickbank?
      There has been a number of good affiliate programs and payment processors listed in this thread, but none are anything at all like Clickbank.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10402677].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
        Originally Posted by myob View Post

        No one is being hard pressed to continue with Clickbank:
        I didn't say otherwise.

        Note that they are referring to vendors as "clients", not customers.
        Note that when you Google "client synonym," the first word on the list is "customer." Note also my thorough explanations in this thread about the customer/seller relationships that are in play here.

        I corrected you before about your misquote regarding this comment. I don't see how you could so completely misunderstand my comment except perhaps to force-fit your own misguided perception of reality.
        I'll quote you again:

        Clickbank has enumerated some of the services they provide to their clients (post 526). I'm not aware of any other network that provides such comprehensive services to their clients, retail customers, affiliates, and JV Partners.

        In my experience, conversions are magnitudes greater when retail customers recognize and understand they have additional layers of support and recourse beyond vendors or affiliates.
        It's pretty easy to interpret the second part as a follow-up to the first part, which is clearly a comparative statement. If you didn't mean it to be understood that way, then so be it. I'm not sure why you're so hung up on this, since I've addressed the substance of both parts in a previous post.

        Clickbank had also made their views clear, and clearly disagrees with you wholeheartedly.
        The fact that I and many others don't agree with what ClickBank is saying has been apparent from the start, so this isn't news to anyone.

        FYI, these products have always been sold to buyers by Clickbank "since the company's inception" (quote from post 519), not by the vendors as I explained before, and so has Clickbank in this thread.
        I've already thoroughly addressed what you've said, and what ClickBank has claimed, in regards to this point.

        The reality is that when a person seeks out a vendor's product, goes to the vendor's website, is convinced by the vendor to make a purchase, receives the product from the vendor, and then receives support after the sale from the vendor, that person is the vendor's customer. This is obvious on its face.

        That person doesn't know what ClickBank is, and they don't care. The vendors and affiliates are the ones who seek out and use ClickBank's payment processing and affiliate management services. They are ClickBank's customers.

        Statements in ClickBank's Terms of Service to the contrary are a matter of legal convenience. They are obviously not the functioning reality of the customer/seller relationships that are in play.

        There should be no further confusion by customers with the recent disclosure requirement.
        Except for the confusion when a buyer sees it on a vendor's website and says, "ClickWhat?"

        I also love the euphemism "disclosure requirement" being used to describe ClickBank forcing their customers to put ClickBank's own brand at the top of their websites against their will.

        BINGO! So then, you acknowledge and agree that Clickbank provides the product guarantee to their retail customers, which has nothing to do whatsoever with vendors. Good eye!
        Setting aside the "retail customers" terminology, ClickBank processes the payment, so they have the ability to create a standard return policy.

        I must also note with amusement that your hopeless obsession with a matter of terminology continues, as opposed to focusing on the topic most of us have been discussing, which is what ClickBank is doing, the motives behind it, and the ramifications for their customers (by "customers" I mean the vendors and affiliates who seek out and use their services - don't want to confuse you.)

        They have already given reasons for this recent change in their TOS. Your paranoid imagination continues to run amok. Read the Clickbank post #518.
        I've addressed what they said in that post very thoroughly in a subsequent reply. Do you have any specific response to what I said in that reply?

        It doesn't require a paranoid imagination to find ClickBank's recent behavior destructive and their motives highly suspect. Indeed, this thread shows these to be common sentiments.

        ROFLMAO! You are now using the exact kind of "reality-defying legalese" for which you held in contempt throughout this thread. What ever happened to reality over legalese? I have a feeling this thread is going to be getting a lot more fun.
        No, I'm clearly not. Try to calm down. When I say that I'm not an attorney, that my opinions are my opinions, and that I don't have behind the scenes access at ClickBank, these are simple statements of fact, like the customer/seller relationship that exists between buyers and vendors, and between vendors and ClickBank.

        There has been a number of good affiliate programs and payment processors listed in this thread, but none are anything at all like Clickbank.
        A product seller can meet his or her needs using another service provider or combination of service providers, so this isn't a problem except for those who are totally reliant on ClickBank. Those are the people my heart really goes out to, because ClickBank can do whatever it wants to them.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10403057].message }}
      • Originally Posted by myob View Post


        There has been a number of good affiliate programs and payment processors listed in this thread, but none are anything at all like Clickbank.
        Which is why they are shoving their badge on our websites no matter how much we stressing that we not keen on it.

        They are taking advantage of the fact that they've branded themselves as the top affiliate network amongst internet marketers.

        These are first signs that Clickbank are taking to show they no-longer value their clients.

        Mark my words!
        Signature

        Website Design | App Creation | Video Marketing | Social Media | Web Hosting

        ==> SlashTouch.Com

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10403127].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author tahoecale
    I use clickbank and JVZoo. I have never had a problem with clickbank, I actually just received a pretty nice check from them.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10402801].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      Originally Posted by tahoecale View Post

      I use clickbank and JVZoo. I have never had a problem with clickbank, I actually just received a pretty nice check from them.
      Please read through this thread, and you will understand what ClickBank is doing and how it is likely to affect you in the future.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10403114].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author xrcv
    People who use PayPal, use it hundreds of times annually to pay for different stuff. Which is why PayPal is a trusted payment processor.

    People who buy clickbank products rarely buy more than once or twice in their lifetime(you buy a chicken coop e-book because that's your interest, and that's it), which is why clickbank is NOT a trusted company for end-users and it will never be.

    A trust badge elicits trust only if the company is already trusted, it doesn't work the other way around.

    Clickbank should be a trusted company for AFFILIATES and for VENDORS and FORCING them to put anything on their OWN sales page, which is CLEARLY out of clickbank's selfish benefit ruins the trust. If I was a vendor, I would never comply. I would contact the top 10 vendors and agree with them to not comply. I have no idea why clickbank thinks they are in a power position at all. They are there to serve the vendors and not the other way around.

    The badge will increase refunds, which clickbank doesn't care much about, because they still get their cut. Smart vendors, who launch future products should seek other affiliate networks that don't interfere negatively with the marketing process out of their own selfish interest.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10403246].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
      Originally Posted by xrcv View Post

      The badge will increase refunds, which clickbank doesn't care much about, because they still get their cut.
      How can that happen ?

      If a customer is deterred by the badge he won't purchase in the first place.

      And also, in the case of a refund, ClickBank do NOT get their cut.

      .
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10403264].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author xrcv
        Originally Posted by Harvey Segal View Post

        How can that happen ?

        If a customer is deterred by the badge he won't purchase in the first place.

        And also, in the case of a refund, ClickBank do NOT get their cut.

        .
        I meant clicking the badge brings up a box that says:

        "If you aren't completely satisfied with your purchase, let us know. We'll make it right. Your satisfaction is guaranteed!"

        That seems like it should be the little print at the bottom, not 20px print before the header.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10403410].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Paul Tai
    So, what's the bottom line, guys?

    For affiliates, nothing changes, and some of them will just come in this thread and say "if you don't like it, get out of CB"... ?

    And for vendors, most of them are livid about this whole ordeal... ? (and wondering what's the next move: maybe an extra sales page just for CB affiliates, and another for the vendor generated traffic, with another (serious) payment processor... ?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10404229].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
    Originally Posted by Paul Tai View Post

    So, what's the bottom line, guys?

    For affiliates, nothing changes, and some of them will just come in this thread and say "if you don't like it, get out of CB"... ?
    Affiliates have a few things to worry about here:

    - Whether the products they promote will keep using the ClickBank platform after all of this

    - For products that do stay on ClickBank, how the header/banner/"trust badge" will affect the conversion rates (and resulting affiliate commissions)

    - Whether ClickBank still plans to start redirecting traffic away from every product's sales page to their own "marketplace," and the effect this will have on conversion rates (which is likely to be disastrous, in my view)

    And for vendors, most of them are livid about this whole ordeal... ? (and wondering what's the next move: maybe an extra sales page just for CB affiliates, and another for the vendor generated traffic, with another (serious) payment processor... ?
    Vendors who have been using ClickBank's services to sell their products have a few options:

    - Keep using ClickBank despite everything that's happened

    - Set up separate pages for ClickBank affiliate traffic, as you mentioned

    - Move to another platform and take as many of their affiliates with them as possible, both by contacting their "super affiliates" and by running contests to get the attention of their unknown affiliates
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10404368].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      I didn't say otherwise.
      Just so we're clear on that.

      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      Note that when you Google "client synonym," the first word on the list is "customer." Note also my thorough explanations in this thread about the customer/seller relationships that are in play here.
      LOL! Google is not a trustworthy source of primary information, particularly in matters of legal interpretation. If you're looking for a loophole, consult with an attorney. And good luck with that going up against Clickbank. When vendors register with Clickbank, the agreement is a Client contract.


      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      It's pretty easy to interpret the second part as a follow-up to the first part, which is clearly a comparative statement. If you didn't mean it to be understood that way, then so be it. I'm not sure why you're so hung up on this, since I've addressed the substance of both parts in a previous post.
      Your "interpretation" as shown here in this thread involves a pattern of convoluted misstatements and selective quotes in ludicrous attempts to support your own preconceived conclusions and twisted notions.

      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      Do you have any reason to believe this dynamic only exists with ClickBank, as opposed to reflecting more generally on the fact that an affiliate can sometimes out-pitch a product seller?
      Of course it happens with other affiliate programs. But there is no other program with this additional dynamic of a robust protection policy for buyers and affiliates against rogue vendors. In split-testing my custom sales pages (which describe the products in detail and strong emphasis on Clickbank's brand with unconditional money-back guarantee) against vendor sales pages (which typically are full of cheesy hype and leaky copy), my conversions win hands down time after time.


      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      The fact that I and many others don't agree with what ClickBank is saying has been apparent from the start, so this isn't news to anyone.
      Clickbank has already suggested what you can do if you don't agree with their TOS. Afterall, there are many payment processors and other affiliate networks which are not so stringent about vendor behavior.


      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      I've already thoroughly addressed what you've said, and what ClickBank has claimed, in regards to this point.
      All you've really done is only repeat the same diatribe over and over. Repetition of fact misinterpretation does not make it true.

      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      Except for the confusion when a buyer sees it on a vendor's website and says, "ClickWhat?"

      I also love the euphemism "disclosure requirement" being used to describe ClickBank forcing their customers to put ClickBank's own brand at the top of their websites against their will.
      This disclosure requirement is intended to reduce that confusion by establishing trust recognition, thereby reducing the number of chargebacks when retail customers see the Clickbank brand on their credit card statements.


      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      Setting aside the "retail customers" terminology, ClickBank processes the payment, so they have the ability to create a standard return policy.

      I must also note with amusement that your hopeless obsession with a matter of terminology continues, as opposed to focusing on the topic most of us have been discussing, which is what ClickBank is doing, the motives behind it, and the ramifications for their customers (by "customers" I mean the vendors and affiliates who seek out and use their services - don't want to confuse you.)
      The terminology as it applies to Clickbank's TOS is clearly defined in their legal collateral. The rights and recourse obligations are specific to clients (vendors), affiliates (sellers), and customers (retail buyers). As I pointed out early on with my posts, understanding the terminology in the context of Clickbank's position is important. Your amusing obsession to blur the issues with nonsense terminology serves only to cause confusion and misdirected allegations.

      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      I've addressed what they said in that post very thoroughly in a subsequent reply. Do you have any specific response to what I said in that reply?
      Yes indeed. You're full of nonsense and paranoid imagination.

      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      It doesn't require a paranoid imagination to find ClickBank's recent behavior destructive and their motives highly suspect. Indeed, this thread shows these to be common sentiments.
      I have seen nothing destructive in their recent behavior, and contrary to what you're trying to present here, these sentiments appear to be among a very small minority of over-reactive and highly vocal vendors.

      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      No, I'm clearly not. Try to calm down. When I say that I'm not an attorney, that my opinions are my opinions, and that I don't have behind the scenes access at ClickBank, these are simple statements of fact, like the customer/seller relationship that exists between buyers and vendors, and between vendors and ClickBank.
      Your opinions just don't have any correlation with the facts.

      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      A product seller can meet his or her needs using another service provider or combination of service providers, so this isn't a problem except for those who are totally reliant on ClickBank. Those are the people my heart really goes out to, because ClickBank can do whatever it wants to them under the terms of service of which they agreed.
      You are almost right, except for that little itty bitty correction I've added for you in bold text.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10404737].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
        Originally Posted by myob View Post

        Just so we're clear on that.
        My statement was very clear.

        LOL! Google is not a trustworthy source of primary information, particularly in matters of legal interpretation.
        It's not a matter of legal interpretation, because I'm not talking about legal technicalities, as I've made abundantly clear, and this isn't a legal setting. I'm talking about the functioning reality of the customer/seller relationship that exists between vendors and their customers, and between ClickBank and their vendors and affiliates. You're free to dislike my rational approach to terminology for whatever reason, but there isn't much you can do about that, so you might as well focus on the issue at hand.

        And I have to say, for you to not acknowledge that the word "client" is synonymous with the word "customer" is making it hard to take you seriously on any level.

        Client Synonyms, Client Antonyms | Thesaurus.com
        CLIENT synonyms, another word for Client
        https://www.powerthesaurus.org/client
        client synonym | English synonyms dictionary | Reverso
        Another word for client | Synonyms for client
        client synonyms

        If you're looking for a loophole, consult with an attorney. And good luck with that going up against Clickbank.
        Loophole? This isn't a courtroom, so I have no idea what you think you're talking about here. I'm not "going up against ClickBank" legally by using realistic terminology in a discussion forum on the internet. I don't think anyone has suggested that the legal system is the right avenue for dealing with ClickBank's recent behavior, and the difference between "illegal" and "unethical" has already been discussed.

        When vendors register with Clickbank, the agreement is a Client contract.
        I'm not sure why you're still so obsessed with this matter of terminology, but I've made it clear that I'm talking about the functioning reality of the customer/seller relationships that are in play, not the legalese in ClickBank's Terms of Service. My views on the issue of "client" vs. "customer" have also been thoroughly explained at this point. Barring any specific response on your part, I'm not sure what else we have to talk about, or why you still want to sidetrack the discussion by quibbling over terminology.

        Your "interpretation" as shown here in this thread involves a pattern of convoluted misstatements and selective quotes in ludicrous attempts to support your own preconceived conclusions and twisted notions.
        Bluster. Anyone can see that my interpretation of the statement this quote refers to was a reasonable one, and I've already said if that wasn't how you meant it to be understood, then so be it. There are no points for you to score here.

        Also, let's be clear that in virtually all of my responses to you, I have literally quoted every single part of your post and dissected it thoroughly. There are no "selective quotes" being made.

        You, on the other hand, have walked away from many points I've put forward, only to repeat your already addressed arguments again later on in the thread.

        Of course it happens with other affiliate programs. But there is no other program with this additional dynamic of a robust protection policy for buyers and affiliates against rogue vendors.
        Once again, I disagree that this is a major point. It's common for payment processors to provide a way to inquire about or dispute a charge, and the buyer's bank/card company will investigate and reverse a charge if necessary also.

        Also, again, I have a hard time agreeing that ClickBank provides "protection" against rogue vendors when they've allowed miracle cures and gambling "systems" to be sold through their platform for years.

        The problem you're running into is that you like to repeat arguments I've already addressed, without replying specifically to what I said in addressing them. That's not a very effective way to debate an issue.

        In split-testing my custom sales pages (which describe the products in detail and strong emphasis on Clickbank's brand with unconditional money-back guarantee) against vendor sales pages (which typically are full of cheesy hype and leaky copy), my conversions win hands down time after time.
        Since those visitors have almost certainly never heard of ClickBank, you could just as easily be emphasizing another brand and another means of recourse for buyers.

        I'll also ask you again why you choose to promote the products of (in your view) shady vendors. Does that type of vendor suddenly become scrupulous when the time comes to deliver a quality product to the buyer?

        Clickbank has already suggested what you can do if you don't agree with their TOS.
        This is news to nobody. That doesn't mean it's not worth discussing the situation. If you feel differently, you're free to refrain from discussing it.

        Afterall, there are many payment processors and other affiliate networks which are not so stringent about vendor behavior.
        Where did you get the idea that the issue here is ClickBank being "stringent about vendor behavior?" The issue is ClickBank's recent behavior:

        - Trying to force their customers to put ClickBank's own brand at the top of their websites

        - Trying to steal their customers' traffic with that link to their own "marketplace"

        - Trying to redirect their customers' domain names to ClickBank URLs

        - Providing justifications for these clearly self-serving actions which defy common sense and insult their customers' intelligence

        It's also about their ongoing behavior, which continues some aspects of the above while leaving other parts open for ClickBank to return to later after they've got their foot in the door with the "trust badge." What they're likely to do in the future, the believability of their justifications, the ramifications of all this for the vendors and affiliates who use their services, etc., are all important aspects of this discussion. Indeed, that's why most of us have been focusing on these things.

        Perhaps you wandered into the wrong thread?

        All you've really done is only repeat the same diatribe over and over. Repetition of fact misinterpretation does not make it true.
        I've addressed all of your arguments directly while you've often failed to address the substance of what I've said, so this is nonsense. Would you like me to make a list of all the arguments you've entirely failed to address and put them together in one place for you?

        This disclosure requirement is intended to reduce that confusion by establishing trust recognition, thereby reducing the number of chargebacks when retail customers see the Clickbank brand on their credit card statements.
        Again with the euphemistic phrase "disclosure requirement." To your point, how does putting a brand customers have never heard of at the top of all of our websites reduce chargebacks due to buyer confusion? They already pay on a ClickBank branded order form, receive order confirmation emails from ClickBank, and are clearly told on our "Thank You" pages that "ClickBank" will appear on their credit card statements. If they're still confused about why they're seeing "ClickBank" after all that, they'll be told during a chargeback investigation what the charge was for - problem solved on that count. So if a chargeback still happens, it's not because the buyer is confused about why "ClickBank" is on their credit card statement.

        Of course, I've already explained this thoroughly in this thread, and you haven't addressed it.

        The terminology as it applies to Clickbank's TOS is clearly defined in their legal collateral. The rights and recourse obligations are specific to clients (vendors), affiliates (sellers), and customers (retail buyers). As I pointed out early on with my posts, understanding the terminology in the context of Clickbank's position is important.
        I'm well aware of the legalese in ClickBank's TOS. I simply place a higher priority on the actual reality of the situation. You're free to see it differently if you choose, but continuing to repeat this argument isn't getting you anywhere it didn't get you the first twenty times. I think it's fair to say most of the participants in this thread care more about the reality of what ClickBank has been trying to do to the vendors and affiliates who use their services than your quibbling over matters of legal technicality.

        Your amusing obsession to blur the issues with nonsense terminology serves only to cause confusion and misdirected allegations.
        My obsession?

        That's strange, because I would much rather be talking about ClickBank's recent behavior, what they're likely to do in the future, and the ramifications for the vendors and affiliates who currently use their services. In other words, what the thread is about.

        The fact that you're so insistent on sidetracking the discussion and quibbling about whether the vendors and affiliates who seek out and use ClickBank's services are their customers (which any person in their right mind would acknowledge) is both amusing and slightly disturbing.

        You yourself have already called the vendors who seek out and use ClickBank's services their "clients" (a common synonym for "customers") and their "business customers."

        Furthermore, you can argue points without agreeing about terminology, and if you want your contribution to the thread to be meaningful, you should probably do so.

        Yes indeed. You're full of nonsense and paranoid imagination.
        This type of blustery language is not a meaningful response to the arguments I and others have presented.

        I have seen nothing destructive in their recent behavior,
        You don't see how it's destructive to be forced to put another company's brand at the top of your website against your will, have your traffic stolen, and have your domain name redirected to a ClickBank URL?

        And before you say they've ceased this behavior, let me remind you that they have not ceased the header/"trust badge" plan, and they've also not replied to direct questions about whether they plan to bring back the traffic-stealing link to their "marketplace" (as their press release left them the option to do).

        and contrary to what you're trying to present here, these sentiments appear to be among a very small minority of over-reactive and highly vocal vendors.
        Garbage. Among the people whose reactions we can see here on the most popular internet marketing forum on the web, the vast majority are not happy with Clickbank's recent behavior. Indeed, so many people are unhappy with it that ClickBank was forced to issue a press release and say they won't do some of these things after all (for now). The backlash has been real, whether it aligns with your worldview or not.

        Your opinions just don't have any correlation with the facts.
        If that were true, you'd be able to address them logically instead of just spewing hot air, and explain specifically how the reasoning I and others have presented is wrong. You wouldn't be sidetracking the discussion by quibbling over terminology.

        You are almost right, except for that little itty bitty correction I've added for you in bold text.
        I'm not sure why you think you're scoring points by saying that people agreed to ClickBank's Terms of Service. That certainly doesn't mean we have to be silent and not discuss this situation, its ramifications, and our plans moving forward after their recent behavior.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10404961].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author MBedford
    Well, I have just migrated to clickbank due to the changes to UK VAT laws and now this happens. Reading this thread has been very enlightening.

    Looks like there will be another migration coming soon.

    On a side note I am slightly worried that I have recieved literally zero emails about this whole situation despite them having my current email address. Is anyone else in this boat or is it just me who has been left in the dark?
    Signature

    Private message me on skype or this forum NOW for deals you won't find anywhere else.

    Skype name: IMViperMarketing
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10404920].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
      Originally Posted by MBedford View Post

      Well, I have just migrated to clickbank due to the changes to UK VAT laws and now this happens. Reading this thread has been very enlightening.

      Looks like there will be another migration coming soon.

      On a side note I am slightly worried that I have recieved literally zero emails about this whole situation despite them having my current email address. Is anyone else in this boat or is it just me who has been left in the dark?
      Out of the last 6 or so mass emails from cb discussed in this forum, i have received precisely two (note i receive the sales and support emails fine always).

      Cb appears to have a big problem with deliverability of the mass emails, and i wouldnt be surprised if most vendors dont know whats going on. The first some vendors might hear of this is when they kicked out on jan 5 for non compliance with the badge.
      Signature
      ClickBank Vendor?
      - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
      - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
      - Killer Graphics for Your Site
      SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10405149].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Lucian Lada
        Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

        The first some vendors might hear of this is when they kicked out on jan 5 for non compliance with the badge.
        Where did you find out from that the deadline is 5th of January? I've emailed ClickBank and they said there's no deadline, yet, but will probably be early next year. This was 5 days ago.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10405154].message }}
      • Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

        The first some vendors might hear of this is when they kicked out on jan 5 for non compliance with the badge.
        Mmmm... I received an email from Clickbank yesterday below:

        ''We have set Tuesday, December 15, 2015 as the deadline for including the Trust Badge JavaScript code on any page in the marketing funnel where a ClickBank payment link is present."

        I really don't like this badge thing, if they don't reconsider it I guess I'll be moving on.

        It would really be beneficial if we'd start a thread on the best affiliate network we can migrate to if Clickbank is not willing to drop this badge thing.
        Signature

        Website Design | App Creation | Video Marketing | Social Media | Web Hosting

        ==> SlashTouch.Com

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10405198].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author ClickBank
          Originally Posted by Makabongwe Maseko View Post

          I really don't like this badge thing, if they don't reconsider it I guess I'll be moving on.
          Hi Makabongwe Maseko,

          The badge implementation is mandatory for all vendors.


          Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

          Cb appears to have a big problem with deliverability of the mass emails, and i wouldnt be surprised if most vendors dont know whats going on.
          Hi SunilTanna,

          I will make sure Marketing is aware of this. Also, we will use multiple tools to notify non-compliant vendors via our application, email, etc. to ensure they are notified prior to enforcement actions.

          Originally Posted by Lucian Lada View Post

          Where did you find out from that the deadline is 5th of January? I've emailed ClickBank and they said there's no deadline, yet, but will probably be early next year. This was 5 days ago.
          Hi Lucian Lada,

          To provide some clarity, we have issued a deadline of January 5th for select vendors that are part of our Platinum program. For all other vendors, the deadline is December 15th.

          I hope this helps provide some clarity.

          Thanks,
          The ClickBank Team
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10405352].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author ClickBank
            Since several clients have not received this email yet, I am including a copy of it here. This is the email sent to all non-Platinum vendors:

            ======================================
            A few weeks ago we officially launched the ClickBank Trust Badge. The launch has gone very well, and the Trust Badge has already received more than 2 million impressions.

            Now with the initial launch completed, many of you have asked about the deadline for implementing the new Trust Badge.

            We have set Tuesday, December 15, 2015 as the deadline for including the Trust Badge JavaScript code on any page in the marketing funnel where a ClickBank payment link is present.

            You can access the Implementation Guide by visiting this link. To get an in-depth refresher on the ClickBank Trust Badge, visit our official blog post from a few weeks ago.

            We have appreciated all of your feedback and the questions you have raised about the implementation process. Here are a few specific answers to some of the top questions we have received:

            1. The Trust Badge JavaScript must be on any page where a ClickBank payment link is present.

            2. The Badge cannot be hidden behind a timer that displays after a defined period of time. For example, if you use a Video Sales Letter and pop a 'buy now' button after a few minutes, you cannot wait until that point to display the badge. It must be present from the time the page loads.

            3. The ClickBank Badge must not be hidden behind any other windows, frames, CSS styling or otherwise forced to be invisible on the page; it must display clearly on the page.

            We recognize that performance marketers are keen on testing and optimizing for conversions in the funnel. We encourage trying different variations of the color and placement options. If you use vendor tracking IDs (VTIDs), you can see performance within the ClickBank Client Analytics screen. Please keep in mind that changes you make to the appearance and placement of the Trust Badge require approximately 30 minutes to one hour to propagate through our network.

            We really appreciate your feedback. If you find any issues as you use the ClickBank Trust Badge, please report it directly to support@clickbank.com.

            Plus, we know there are various types of websites being used throughout the ClickBank ecosystem. We have done extensive testing on our side, but please let us know if you experience any problems with the Trust Badge on your site. We will make it a priority to deploy any needed fixes quickly.

            If you have any questions, big or small please let us know. We look forward to doing all we can to help make the implementation as easy as possible

            Sincerely,

            The ClickBank Team
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10405433].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author trevord92
              Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

              Since several clients have not received this email yet, I am including a copy of it here. This is the email sent to all non-Platinum vendors:
              I got one copy of the email but a colleague woth a product didn't it either and 2 other products I look after didn't get it either.

              Spam checked - not in there.

              And nothing to indicate any change is due when I log into the various accounts.

              Which isn't going to help awareness especially since the deadline is very tight and close to Thanksgiving/Christmas.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10405617].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Paul Tai
          Originally Posted by Makabongwe Maseko View Post


          I really don't like this badge thing, if they don't reconsider it I guess I'll be moving on.

          It would really be beneficial if we'd start a thread on the best affiliate network we can migrate to if Clickbank is not willing to drop this badge thing.
          Yes, thank you. This is what we should be discussing: What's the best option for those who will be leaving CB for another affiliate network?

          - Commission Junction
          - JVZoo
          - ?
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10406774].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Paul Tai
    Question for affiliates:

    Do you guys think that Commission Junction or Stripe/Braintree (split-payment) could be a replacement for CB? I mean, in the case where the affiliates and vendors have at least spoken via email, and aren't strangers to one another.

    If not, where do you see this going in case where more and more vendors start to leave CB behind?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10405033].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author robofx
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Paul Tai View Post

      Question for affiliates:

      Do you guys think that Commission Junction or Stripe/Braintree (split-payment) could be a replacement for CB?
      I know a guy who was banned for life as an affiliate from Commission Junction for sending them 50onRed traffic. The funny thing is, he does not have and has never had an account with 50onRed.

      In other words, he never sent Commission Junction even a single click from 50onRed and yet they banned him - for LIFE! - for the dastardly deed of sending them 50onRed traffic. LOL

      He found it so utterly bizarre, he didn't bother confronting them with their nonsense.

      So, yes, given what an absurdity Clickbank seems to have become then I'd have to say whole-heartedly, enthusiastically, yes! Yes, indeed, Commission Junction is a new Clickbank in the making. LOL
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10417630].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author hotlinkz
    The Trust Badge JavaScript must be on any page where a ClickBank payment link is present.
    So, if there is no payment link on the main sales page, the Trust Badge is not required on that page?
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10405673].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Just getting back into some Affiliate Products at CB. Trying to find the CB Header on one of the Products Iam considering Promoting but don't see it.

      This is a hell of a long thread. LOL

      So excuse me if this has been duly noted. I have looked but cant find it.
      Signature

      Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10406266].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author myob
        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        My statement was very clear.
        Indeed, it was clearly obfuscated by a masterful array of confusion, twisted facts, and purposeful misinterpretation.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        It's not a matter of legal interpretation, because I'm not talking about legal technicalities, as I've made abundantly clear, and this isn't a legal setting. I'm talking about the functioning reality of the customer/seller relationship that exists between vendors and their customers, and between ClickBank and their vendors and affiliates. You're free to dislike my rational approach to terminology for whatever reason, but there isn't much you can do about that, so you might as well focus on the issue at hand.

        And I have to say, for you to not acknowledge that the word "client" is synonymous with the word "customer" is making it hard to take you seriously on any level.
        There is nothing on Clickbank's website to indicate that vendors are customers. No matter how many times you try to make the word "client" synonymous with the word "customer", this relationship exists only within your imagination, not a functioning reality at all in Clickbank's interpretation. They have been abundantly clear about how they manage vendors, affiliates, and their retail customers. You are free to disagree philosophically for whatever reason, but with a clear agenda such as yours, there really isn't much you can do about changing the terminology.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        Loophole? This isn't a courtroom, so I have no idea what you think you're talking about here. I'm not "going up against ClickBank" legally by using realistic terminology in a discussion forum on the internet. I don't think anyone has suggested that the legal system is the right avenue for dealing with ClickBank's recent behavior, and the difference between "illegal" and "unethical" has already been discussed.
        Clickbank's recent behavior was neither illegal nor unethical. Your insistent attempts to justify such frivolous allegations using obvious stretching maneuvers such as Google for synonyms and avoiding inconvenient "legal technicalities" is not looking good so far.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        I'm not sure why you're still so obsessed with this matter of terminology, but I've made it clear that I'm talking about the functioning reality of the customer/seller relationships that are in play, not the legalese in ClickBank's Terms of Service. My views on the issue of "client" vs. "customer" have also been thoroughly explained at this point. Barring any specific response on your part, I'm not sure what else we have to talk about, or why you still want to sidetrack the discussion by quibbling over terminology.
        I'm not the one "quibbling over terminology". You are the one trying to inject your own interpretation to fit some kind of twisted conspiracy theory that Clickbank is taking over the world.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        Bluster. Anyone can see that my interpretation of the statement this quote refers to was a reasonable one, and I've already said if that wasn't how you meant it to be understood, then so be it. There are no points for you to score here.
        I wasn't keeping score, but a quick glance over this thread indicates that you're likely to be headed for a shut-out.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        Also, let's be clear that in virtually all of my responses to you, I have literally quoted every single part of your post and dissected it thoroughly. There are no "selective quotes" being made.

        You, on the other hand, have walked away from many points I've put forward, only to repeat your already addressed arguments again later on in the thread.
        Your conscientious attention to nonsense is commendable.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        Once again, I disagree that this is a major point. It's common for payment processors to provide a way to inquire about or dispute a charge, and the buyer's bank/card company will investigate and reverse a charge if necessary also.
        You clearly do not understand the many services that Clickbank provides to their retail customers which would otherwise be a burden for their clients.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        Also, again, I have a hard time agreeing that ClickBank provides "protection" against rogue vendors when they've allowed miracle cures and gambling "systems" to be sold through their platform for years.
        Clickbank effectively protects their retail customers from rogue vendors through their unconditional money-back guarantee, which is beyond the control of vendors. In addition, a few years ago Clickbank introduced some initiatives to protect affiliates against predatory practices of vendors. Shoddy products are not a reflection upon Clickbank, but rather for the vendor. Most retailers have this same problem with some of their products, which generally is not a valid reason for assuming no action is being taken to resolve such issues.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        The problem you're running into is that you like to repeat arguments I've already addressed, without replying specifically to what I said in addressing them. That's not a very effective way to debate an issue.
        Oh, pardon me. I didn't realize we were having a "debate". It appears to be more of a comedy show.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        Since those visitors have almost certainly never heard of ClickBank, you could just as easily be emphasizing another brand and another means of recourse for buyers.
        Now why would I do something like that? Clickbank's reputation is actually quite well-known among my targeted demographics, although I also promote several other affiliate programs, including Amazon, CJ, Shareasale, Linkshare and a few others perhaps you have not heard of.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        I'll also ask you again why you choose to promote the products of (in your view) shady vendors. Does that type of vendor suddenly become scrupulous when the time comes to deliver a quality product to the buyer?
        I promote quality products, no matter how shady a vendor may be. Usually it's Clickbank vendor sales pages which I frequently find to be objectionably over-hyped or has leaks in violation of Clickbank's TOS. As I've already mentioned previously, the custom pages I've been using for many years brand Clickbank as the seller, with a rather conspicuous notice of their 90-day unconditional money-back guarantee and customer service contact information as a recourse against vendor default or unresolved dispute.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        This is news to nobody. That doesn't mean it's not worth discussing the situation. If you feel differently, you're free to refrain from discussing it.
        There's an old saying; "If you can't stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen". Perhaps especially in your case it is well worth considering.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        Where did you get the idea that the issue here is ClickBank being "stringent about vendor behavior?" The issue is ClickBank's recent behavior:

        - Trying to force their customers to put ClickBank's own brand at the top of their websites

        - Trying to steal their customers' traffic with that link to their own "marketplace"

        - Trying to redirect their customers' domain names to ClickBank URLs

        - Providing justifications for these clearly self-serving actions which defy common sense and insult their customers' intelligence

        It's also about their ongoing behavior, which continues some aspects of the above while leaving other parts open for ClickBank to return to later after they've got their foot in the door with the "trust badge." What they're likely to do in the future, the believability of their justifications, the ramifications of all this for the vendors and affiliates who use their services, etc., are all important aspects of this discussion. Indeed, that's why most of us have been focusing on these things.

        Perhaps you wandered into the wrong thread?
        This is the right thread alright, but you are in the wrong league facing a strike-out.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        I've addressed all of your arguments directly while you've often failed to address the substance of what I've said, so this is nonsense. Would you like me to make a list of all the arguments you've entirely failed to address and put them together in one place for you?
        If you didn't get the message by now, I've addressed all of your "substance" as insubstantial nonsense.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        Again with the euphemistic phrase "disclosure requirement." To your point, how does putting a brand customers have never heard of at the top of all of our websites reduce chargebacks due to buyer confusion? They already pay on a ClickBank branded order form, receive order confirmation emails from ClickBank, and are clearly told on our "Thank You" pages that "ClickBank" will appear on their credit card statements. If they're still confused about why they're seeing "ClickBank" after all that, they'll be told during a chargeback investigation what the charge was for - problem solved on that count. So if a chargeback still happens, it's not because the buyer is confused about why "ClickBank" is on their credit card statement.

        Of course, I've already explained this thoroughly in this thread, and you haven't addressed it.
        Clickbank has already answered these issues in their posts here in the thread. The "trust badge" is a mandatory requirement which is a compromise agreed upon by EMV standards to address Clickbank's excessive credit card chargeback rate. This is not up for debate. As Clickbank has suggested, perhaps another provider may be the solution for those who find these terms unacceptable.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        I'm well aware of the legalese in ClickBank's TOS. I simply place a higher priority on the actual reality of the situation. You're free to see it differently if you choose, but continuing to repeat this argument isn't getting you anywhere it didn't get you the first twenty times. I think it's fair to say most of the participants in this thread care more about the reality of what ClickBank has been trying to do to the vendors and affiliates who use their services than your quibbling over matters of legal technicality.
        And I'm well aware of the petitions circulating around the internet to boycott Clickbank. Needless to say, these concerted efforts aren't getting much traction. Keep trying, though.


        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        My obsession?

        That's strange, because I would much rather be talking about ClickBank's recent behavior, what they're likely to do in the future, and the ramifications for the vendors and affiliates who currently use their services. In other words, what the thread is about.

        The fact that you're so insistent on sidetracking the discussion and quibbling about whether the vendors and affiliates who seek out and use ClickBank's services are their customers (which any person in their right mind would acknowledge) is both amusing and slightly disturbing.

        You yourself have already called the vendors who seek out and use ClickBank's services their "clients" (a common synonym for "customers") and their "business customers."

        Furthermore, you can argue points without agreeing about terminology, and if you want your contribution to the thread to be meaningful, you should probably do so.
        Without agreeing upon terminology, meaningful communication is impossible. Clickbank is precise about their terms of service, and clearly defines the rights, obligations, recourse procedures, etc depending upon levels of interaction with their services. You insist that their definition of "client" is synonymous with "customer". However, their distinction is that clients are not retail customers. These two synonyms are indeed similar, but they are not exact in definition. You seem obsessed with causing confusion to sustain your weak arguments, but Clickbank has been clear about these terms to minimize confusion.


        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        This type of blustery language is not a meaningful response to the arguments I and others have presented.
        This response was directed entirely at your nonsense. No one else seems to have a problem understanding Clickbank's clearly defined terminology. If you're debating Clickbank's recent actions, there is nothing productive about making up your own definitions.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        You don't see how it's destructive to be forced to put another company's brand at the top of your website against your will, have your traffic stolen, and have your domain name redirected to a ClickBank URL?

        And before you say they've ceased this behavior, let me remind you that they have not ceased the header/"trust badge" plan, and they've also not replied to direct questions about whether they plan to bring back the traffic-stealing link to their "marketplace" (as their press release left them the option to do).
        I agree with you. And if Clickbank ever does act in such a manner, I would dump them in a heartbeat. There are plenty of other alternatives for affiliates and vendors.


        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        Garbage. Among the people whose reactions we can see here on the most popular internet marketing forum on the web, the vast majority are not happy with Clickbank's recent behavior. Indeed, so many people are unhappy with it that ClickBank was forced to issue a press release and say they won't do some of these things after all (for now). The backlash has been real, whether it aligns with your worldview or not.
        My "worldview" is that Clickbank currently is among the top global retailers of digital products, a world-class affiliate network, and a premier supportive infrastructure for vendors to build their business. The vendors who trash Clickbank because of some imagined incursions most likely would not be the type of product suppliers I would associate with anyway. A few of the vendors for products of which I have promoted for years have recently made the move to other network platforms. I do wish them all the best, but there is also a growing number of many other vendors for affiliates to choose from on Clickbank.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        If that were true, you'd be able to address them logically instead of just spewing hot air, and explain specifically how the reasoning I and others have presented is wrong. You wouldn't be sidetracking the discussion by quibbling over terminology.
        This "quibbling over terminology" is due to your own intentional misinterpretation and manipulation in a twisted effort to sustain an untenable argument.

        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        I'm not sure why you think you're scoring points by saying that people agreed to ClickBank's Terms of Service. That certainly doesn't mean we have to be silent and not discuss this situation, its ramifications, and our plans moving forward after their recent behavior.
        So far, it seems you have not scored any points at all. I never said you have to be silent and not discuss the situation, of which this is another of your many false allegations and manipulative efforts in your misguided campaign. But there is nothing in Clickbank's recent actions to indicate anything even close to what you have alleged.

        As explained, the mandatory "trust badge" is a compulsory compromise agreeable to the demands made by credit card companies because of Clickbank's alarming rate of chargebacks. There could be further escalated actions taken, but "stealing traffic" from their own clients or "redirecting traffic" are certainly not rational actions that would serve their interests.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10407441].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
          Sorry guy, but neither you NOR ClickBank gets to decide on the meaning on the word "customer".

          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          There is nothing on Clickbank's website to indicate that vendors are customers. No matter how many times you try to make the word "client" synonymous with the word "customer", this relationship exists only within your imagination, not a functioning reality at all in Clickbank's interpretation. They have been abundantly clear about how they manage vendors, affiliates, and their retail customers. You are free to disagree philosophically for whatever reason, but with a clear agenda such as yours, there really isn't much you can do about changing the terminology.
          A vendor pays a fee to ClickBank to establish their account, buying them the ability to have their product(s) listed for ClickBank's affiliates to promote. The payment of that fee qualifies the vendor as a customer. Period.

          That relationship does not change until either
          1. ClickBank cancels the account, or
          2. the customer rescinds ClickBank's right to sell those products.

          The word "client" is synonymous with the word "customer", and your attempt to convince others (repeatedly) that this is not true, is ridiculous.

          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          I wasn't keeping score, but a quick glance over this thread indicates that you're likely to be headed for a shut-out.
          Perhaps you should... it might be YOU who is headed for a shut-out. Don't get caught with your pants down around your ankles.


          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          Clickbank effectively protects their retail customers from rogue vendors through their unconditional money-back guarantee, which is beyond the control of vendors.
          But who protects the vendors from the fraudulent retail customers?

          The topic of ClickBank's unconditional refunds has been discussed here on the WF many times. Maybe if they had been fighting some of those refund requests/chargbacks earlier, they could have improved their merchant account track record, and wouldn't now be faced with having to concede to terms that their product suppliers find so objectionable.

          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          Oh, pardon me. I didn't realize we were having a "debate". It appears to be more of a comedy show.
          Only because of your tenacity as a heckler.

          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          I promote quality products, no matter how shady a vendor may be. Usually it's Clickbank vendor sales pages which I frequently find to be objectionably over-hyped or has leaks in violation of Clickbank's TOS. As I've already mentioned previously, the custom pages I've been using for many years brand Clickbank as the seller, with a rather conspicuous notice of their 90-day unconditional money-back guarantee and customer service contact information as a recourse against vendor default or unresolved dispute.
          Which only makes me wonder all the more, why you keep showing up here to debate an issue which (according to you) doesn't affect you.

          As an affiliate marketer, you don't have a sales page with a ClickBank payment link, so you aren't required to place the ClickBank Trust Badge on any of your own pages.

          Maybe it's because you're worried that some of the vendors that you do promote will find other solutions... that your hoplinks will no longer work, and (even worse) you won't have any way of knowing.

          To my knowledge, ClickBank takes NO action to notify affiliates that a vendor has closed their account and/or removed their ClickBank payment links from their sales pages.

          There is at least one of those currently showing on ClickBank's home page under "Featured Products". You can still buy via ClickBank from that page, but if an affiliate sends a hoplink to the product, the prospective buyer winds up on the vendor's sales page that contains a non-ClickBank buy button.

          Is your purpose here simply to try to limit the number of potentially non-productive promotions you are currently running to products that may/may not be available through ClickBank in the future? What happens if you're promoting my product through ClickBank and I decide to close my account? How much money will you spend promoting my product before you realize that you're dumping money down a black hole?

          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          The "trust badge" is a mandatory requirement which is a compromise agreed upon by EMV standards to address Clickbank's excessive credit card chargeback rate. This is not up for debate.
          Hate to keep beating a dead horse here, but since ClickBank is the "retailer"... it is their excessive chargeback rate.

          They are not the only online retailer to encounter this problem, and some part of that problem can certainly be alleviated by selling from their own site with a marketplace geared toward their retail customers.

          Of course they might need something in their marketplace other than just a thumbnail image with a price for each product, so that they can adequately describe the product(s), or maybe a customer review mechanism, or "star rating" system. It appears that ClickBank intends to bypass the work needed to become a "real" retailer, by simply absconding with the proprietary content on their vendor's sales pages (I think they call it "branding").

          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          As explained, the mandatory "trust badge" is a compulsory compromise agreeable to the demands made by credit card companies because of Clickbank's alarming rate of chargebacks. There could be further escalated actions taken, but "stealing traffic" from their own clients or "redirecting traffic" are certainly not rational actions that would serve their interests.
          Fixed that for you...
          Except that perhaps they should consider an acceptable compromise with their product suppliers, as well. In fact, maybe ClickBank should have determined if these actions were acceptable to their vendors BEFORE using the vendors' assets to reach a compromise with their merchant account provider.
          Signature

          Sid Hale
          Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10407675].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          Indeed, it was clearly obfuscated by a masterful array of confusion, twisted facts, and purposeful misinterpretation.
          It's really hard to tell if you're serious or not when you make such bizarre statements.

          There is nothing on Clickbank's website to indicate that vendors are customers.
          - Vendors and affiliates are the ones who seek out and use ClickBank's services. The people who buy a vendor's products generally have no idea what ClickBank is.

          - You yourself have referred to the vendors who seek out and use ClickBank's services as their "clients" and their "business customers."

          - Even ClickBank refers to vendors as "clients," a common synonym for "customers." And even if you buy into the idea that the vendors' customers are actually ClickBank's customers, you're then just talking about ClickBank having two different types of customers, and it's still accurate to refer to vendors as customers.

          This issue is not complicated. The fact that you're still arguing over whether the vendors and affiliates who seek out and use ClickBank's services are their customers is just strange.

          No matter how many times you try to make the word "client" synonymous with the word "customer", this relationship exists only within your imagination, not a functioning reality at all in Clickbank's interpretation.
          ClickBank uses the word "client," and "client" is a synonym for "customer." Synonymous words are synonymous. I'll also point out that when I say "functioning reality" I am talking about the functioning reality regardless of what ClickBank says.

          They have been abundantly clear about how they manage vendors, affiliates, and their retail customers.
          We're not talking about how they manage their relationships with the parties you're referring to (although we should be, since that's actually relevant to the topic of the thread.) You're simply quibbling over what terminology should be used to refer to those parties. I've chosen to use accurate terminology based on the functioning reality of the customer/seller relationships that are in play, not the legalese used in ClickBank's Terms of Service. You apparently don't like that, so much so that you've sidetracked the discussion to an extreme level just to continue quibbling about it in post after post.

          You are free to disagree philosophically for whatever reason,
          I don't think using realistic terminology instead of legalese is a particularly philosophical endeavor. It's just how people in the real world operate. But thank you anyway.

          but with a clear agenda such as yours,
          If one of us has an agenda, it would be you, since you openly expressed your prejudice against vendors earlier in this thread. I'm simply not happy with ClickBank's recent actions, like many others. That's my only "agenda."

          there really isn't much you can do about changing the terminology.
          I don't believe I've ever given any indication that my goal is to change the legalese ClickBank uses in their Terms of Service. I'm simply using realistic terminology when discussing the issue on a discussion forum. You don't like that for whatever reason, but it's not your decision, so you might as well move on. Your displeasure is duly noted.

          Clickbank's recent behavior was neither illegal nor unethical.
          They tried to take over their customers' websites, put their own header and brand at the top, steal their customers' traffic with a link to their own "marketplace," and redirect their customers' domain names to ClickBank URLs. Meanwhile, they provided justifications for these actions that don't stand up to any scrutiny. You don't see how that's unethical?

          Your insistent attempts to justify such frivolous allegations using obvious stretching maneuvers such as Google for synonyms and avoiding inconvenient "legal technicalities" is not looking good so far.
          Please note that in my paragraph above, you could change the word "customer" to the word "client" and it's still just as bad. No "stretching maneuvers" required. The only reason this terminology is even being discussed is because you obsessively focus on it time and time again. Also, it's not my fault that when you look in a thesaurus, "client" is synonymous with "customer." It's just English.

          I'm not the one "quibbling over terminology".
          Anyone can read the thread and see that you've continually insisted on quibbling over the term "customer" instead of focusing on the point. I've tried repeatedly to steer the discussion back to the topic at hand. Would you like me to quote myself doing so?

          You and I clearly will not agree about whether the vendors and affiliates who seek out and use ClickBank's services are their customers. Despite the fact that you've already referred to them as ClickBank's "clients" (which is synonymous with "customers") and "business customers," this is somehow a major sticking point with you.

          Then let's agree to disagree about the terminology, since we both know each other's views on this, and neither of us gets to decide what words the other one uses. Let's get back to the topic at hand, which is ClickBank's recent behavior, the believability of their justifications, what they're likely to do in the future, the ramifications of all this for the vendors and affiliates who use their services, etc.

          You are the one trying to inject your own interpretation to fit some kind of twisted conspiracy theory that Clickbank is taking over the world.
          Oh, please. If you have a specific response to anything I've said, then by all means, post it. Otherwise, you're just taking up space in the thread.

          I wasn't keeping score, but a quick glance over this thread indicates that you're likely to be headed for a shut-out.
          Anyone can read through our discussion and decide for themselves who is more convincing. I'm comfortable with that.

          Your conscientious attention to nonsense is commendable.
          When you've been reduced to replies like this one, I don't see why you're still posting.

          You clearly do not understand the many services that Clickbank provides to their retail customers which would otherwise be a burden for their clients.
          We've already gone over what ClickBank does and does not do for a vendor's buyers that would otherwise be a burden for the vendors who use their services. I am one of those vendors. They do very little except process the payment and provide affiliate management services.

          Clickbank effectively protects their retail customers from rogue vendors through their unconditional money-back guarantee, which is beyond the control of vendors.
          I've addressed this. Payment processors usually take the side of buyers when it comes down to it, and buyers can always file for a chargeback with their bank/card company also. This is nothing heroic on ClickBank's part.

          In addition, a few years ago Clickbank introduced some initiatives to protect affiliates against predatory practices of vendors.
          This has to do with their affiliate management services, so I'm not sure how it's relevant.

          Shoddy products are not a reflection upon Clickbank, but rather for the vendor. Most retailers have this same problem with some of their products, which generally is not a valid reason for assuming no action is being taken to resolve such issues.
          Setting aside your use of the term "retailer," when scammy products are sold through their platform for years, it does reflect on ClickBank. And how many retailers sell miracle cures and gambling "systems" to the public?

          Oh, pardon me. I didn't realize we were having a "debate". It appears to be more of a comedy show.
          Yes, we can all see that you're not discussing this issue seriously. From the moment you entered the thread accusing everyone of having a "hissy fit" and "bitching and complaining," to your endless objections to the word "customer" being used to describe the vendors and affiliates who seek out and use ClickBank's services, to your openly stated prejudice against vendors, that much is obvious.

          Now why would I do something like that? Clickbank's reputation is actually quite well-known among my targeted demographics,
          You missed my point - which was that this is not an inherent benefit with ClickBank, comparatively speaking - but I would love to know what demographics outside the MMO niche have ever heard of ClickBank before. They're not a household name, and they have no reputation to speak of among consumers.

          although I also promote several other affiliate programs, including Amazon, CJ, Shareasale, Linkshare and a few others perhaps you have not heard of.
          That last part is a bit presumptuous.

          I promote quality products, no matter how shady a vendor may be. Usually it's Clickbank vendor sales pages which I frequently find to be objectionably over-hyped or has leaks in violation of Clickbank's TOS.
          So you promote for shady vendors, but only the ones with quality products.

          Pretty common for shady vendors to have quality products, is it?

          As I've already mentioned previously, the custom pages I've been using for many years brand Clickbank as the seller, with a rather conspicuous notice of their 90-day unconditional money-back guarantee and customer service contact information as a recourse against vendor default or unresolved dispute.
          Yes, you did mention that, and to the extent that it's relevant to the thread, I've addressed it. I'm not sure why you're repeating it again. My point about you promoting the products of shady vendors isn't addressed by saying you brand ClickBank as the seller. It's not ClickBank's product.

          There's an old saying; "If you can't stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen". Perhaps especially in your case it is well worth considering.
          So this is your contribution to the thread. For all you people who are unhappy with ClickBank's recent behavior, don't buy their justifications, are worried about what they'll try to pull in the future... "get out of the kitchen."

          I think we can all decide for ourselves how to proceed going forward, but your advice is duly noted.

          This is the right thread alright, but you are in the wrong league facing a strike-out.
          I almost feel sorry for you when I see meaningless, smack-talking replies this.

          If you didn't get the message by now, I've addressed all of your "substance" as insubstantial nonsense.
          That's not how it works. When I challenge your arguments with specific logic, and you don't have any specific reply to that logic, that logic stands. You can pretend it's not there, but it doesn't go away. Anyone can read the thread and see it.

          Clickbank has already answered these issues in their posts here in the thread. The "trust badge" is a mandatory requirement which is a compromise agreed upon by EMV standards to address Clickbank's excessive credit card chargeback rate.
          Bull.

          You do remember that in their initial rollout of this whole scheme, they said the card companies were requiring them to make changes. Then they announced that they were going to take over their customers' websites, put their own header and brand at the top, put a link to their own "marketplace" in that header, and redirect their customers' domain names to ClickBank URLs.

          But once they saw the backlash that followed, they made another announcement: "Never mind, guys. We're not going to do some of that stuff after all."

          What happened to the card companies making them do it?

          Now they're saying the card companies are only making them do the part where their brand gets plastered onto all of our websites against our will. Why do you believe the card companies are making them do anything at this point?

          I and many others don't, and I've already explained the reasons in a manner so simple and thorough that a child could understand them.

          I'll ask you again:

          How does putting a brand customers have never heard of at the top of all of our websites reduce chargebacks due to buyer confusion? They already pay on a ClickBank branded order form, receive order confirmation emails from ClickBank, and are clearly told on our "Thank You" pages that "ClickBank" will appear on their credit card statements. If they're still confused about why they're seeing "ClickBank" after all that, they'll be told during a chargeback investigation what the charge was for - problem solved on that count. So if a chargeback still happens, it's not because the buyer is confused about why "ClickBank" is on their credit card statement.

          I'll also ask what ClickBank's brand being stuck at the top of everyone's websites against our will has to do with the EMV issue?

          I'll also ask why the card companies would want ClickBank to do something which doesn't address credit card fraud and is not the logical solution to the supposed problem of buyers being confused when they see "ClickBank" on their credit card statements?

          Perhaps you'd like to answer this time?

          Perhaps ClickBank would like to answer this and the other direct questions that have been asked but were ignored in their recent replies?

          This is not up for debate.
          If you believe ClickBank saying something means its truthfulness is no longer in question, and that's as much thinking as you're willing to do, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

          As Clickbank has suggested, perhaps another provider may be the solution for those who find these terms unacceptable.
          Your repeated advice on this is noted.

          And I'm well aware of the petitions circulating around the internet to boycott Clickbank. Needless to say, these concerted efforts aren't getting much traction. Keep trying, though.
          I'm not sure how this relates to what I said, but the fact that ClickBank had to issue a press release and reverse course after seeing the backlash speaks for itself.

          Without agreeing upon terminology, meaningful communication is impossible.
          Your nonstop quibbling over terminology is precisely what has impeded communication and distracted from the topic at hand.

          Clickbank is precise about their terms of service, and clearly defines the rights, obligations, recourse procedures, etc depending upon levels of interaction with their services. You insist that their definition of "client" is synonymous with "customer". However, their distinction is that clients are not retail customers.
          We all know there's a distinction between buyers and vendors, and that the two are not the same. The issue is your insistence that we all use the terminology from ClickBank's Terms of Service when referring to these parties here on a discussion forum, rather than using terms that reflect the actual reality of the situation.

          No.

          I'll refer to buyers as a vendor's customers because they seek out a vendor's product, go to the vendor's website, are convinced by the vendor to buy the product, receive the product from the vendor, and receive support after the sale from the vendor.

          I'll refer to vendors as ClickBank's customers because they seek out and use ClickBank's services, as do affiliates.

          You can object to this terminology all you want, but it's the terminology I'm going to use.

          These two synonyms are indeed similar, but they are not exact in definition. You seem obsessed with causing confusion to sustain your weak arguments, but Clickbank has been clear about these terms to minimize confusion.
          Anybody who would be confused by what I wrote above probably wouldn't be able to turn on a computer.

          This response was directed entirely at your nonsense.
          And yet it contained no substantive counterargument. How puzzling.

          No one else seems to have a problem understanding Clickbank's clearly defined terminology.
          I'll point out that you're the only one complaining for page after page that anyone would dare to call the vendors and affiliates who use ClickBank's services their customers.

          If you're debating Clickbank's recent actions, there is nothing productive about making up your own definitions.
          The terms I'm using are based on the functioning reality of the customer/seller relationships that are happening. You're free to use whatever terminology you want, and I'll still have no trouble addressing your arguments. It's only you who feels the need to continue quibbling over terminology instead of agreeing to disagree.

          I agree with you. And if Clickbank ever does act in such a manner, I would dump them in a heartbeat. There are plenty of other alternatives for affiliates and vendors.
          The things I described are precisely what they attempted to do, and it's only because of the people who had a "hissy fit" and were "bitching and complaining" according to you that it didn't happen.

          Even now, ClickBank is continuing some of that behavior and has left themselves the option to bring other parts back in the future. I don't know why you're so keen on defending them.

          My "worldview" is that Clickbank currently is among the top global retailers of digital products,
          I've already addressed the notion that they're a retailer thoroughly in several posts.

          a world-class affiliate network,
          This is true, although their recent behavior calls the "world class" part into question.

          and a premier supportive infrastructure for vendors to build their business.
          See above.

          The vendors who trash Clickbank because of some imagined incursions
          There's nothing imagined about it. We all saw the announcements, blog posts and emails from ClickBank about this.

          most likely would not be the type of product suppliers I would associate with anyway.
          But you choose to associate with the shady ones?

          A few of the vendors for products of which I have promoted for years have recently made the move to other network platforms. I do wish them all the best, but there is also a growing number of many other vendors for affiliates to choose from on Clickbank.
          Why is "vendors" underlined here?

          To your point, it may be true that the number of vendors ClickBank loses due to their recent behavior will be made up for by new vendors using ClickBank. Time will tell. But if they bring back that link on every vendor's website to ClickBank's "marketplace," you're not going to be happy.

          This "quibbling over terminology" is due to your own intentional misinterpretation and manipulation in a twisted effort to sustain an untenable argument.
          More bluster. I've countered your arguments and addressed your objections thoroughly. You continually fail to address my reasoning and instead make statements like the one above. It's not convincing, and it's certainly not a productive contribution to the thread.

          So far, it seems you have not scored any points at all.
          I'm content to let people look back over our discussion and decide for themselves who has made the more convincing arguments.

          I never said you have to be silent and not discuss the situation, of which this is another of your many false allegations and manipulative efforts in your misguided campaign.
          When you call the discussion a "hissy fit thread," say people are "bitching and complaining," and continually make snide remarks that if we don't like what ClickBank is doing we should get out, what else is there to gather from that?

          But there is nothing in Clickbank's recent actions to indicate anything even close to what you have alleged.
          The announcements, blog posts and emails from ClickBank are a matter of public record.

          As explained, the mandatory "trust badge" is a compulsory compromise agreeable to the demands made by credit card companies because of Clickbank's alarming rate of chargebacks.
          I and others have already challenged this claim, and I've provided my reasoning for doing so. If you have a response to what I've actually said, I'm all ears.

          There could be further escalated actions taken, but "stealing traffic" from their own clients or "redirecting traffic" are certainly not rational actions that would serve their interests.
          They tried to force their customers to put their own header and brand at the top of our websites, and then they tried to put a link to their own "marketplace" in that header. Do you not understand how this would steal traffic? Would you like me to explain it to you?

          They also tried to make it so visitors who come to any vendor's website are redirected to a ClickBank URL, meaning the vendor's domain name no longer shows up in the address bar. Do you not understand the concept of redirection?
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10407705].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author agmccall
      Originally Posted by hotlinkz View Post

      So, if there is no payment link on the main sales page, the Trust Badge is not required on that page?
      Good point, so if the button says "add to cart" instead of "buy now" then no header will be required or trust badge, or whatever they call it next week?

      al
      Signature

      "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10407241].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
        I'm pretty sure the wording on the "button" isn't the issue, Al...

        Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

        Good point, so if the button says "add to cart" instead of "buy now" then no header will be required or trust badge, or whatever they call it next week?
        I interpret what they have said as meaning any page that links to the ClickBank order form, regardless of what text (add to cart vs buy now) or image is used as the clickable link.
        Signature

        Sid Hale
        Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10407278].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author StevenUK
          I have just inserted the test code on new product site (product not verified yet), but the trust badge is not showing at all, even though the code is placed under the </head> tag.

          It does not seem to be working.
          Signature

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10407350].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author hotlinkz
          Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

          I'm pretty sure the wording on the "button" isn't the issue, Al...

          I interpret what they have said as meaning any page that links to the ClickBank order form, regardless of what text (add to cart vs buy now) or image is used as the clickable link.

          I was thinking more on the line of a sales/information page without a "Buy Button" or "Add to Cart" button. The link on this first sales/information page would lead to a second page with brief details and this second page would contain the actual Clickbank buy button.

          The text of the button on the first sales page would be something like "Continue" or "Learn More" or something similar.

          Compare this requirement to Amazon's. The products sold usually do not belong to the affiliates, but they do not require an Amazon header or badge on the main sales or review pages.
          Signature
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10407465].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
            Originally Posted by hotlinkz View Post

            I was thinking more on the line of a sales/information page without a "Buy Button" or "Add to Cart" button. The link on this first sales/information page would lead to a second page with brief details and this second page would contain the actual Clickbank buy button.

            The text of the button on the first sales page would be something like "Continue" or "Learn More" or something similar.

            Compare this requirement to Amazon's. The products sold usually do not belong to the affiliates, but they do not require an Amazon header or badge on the main sales or review pages.
            This is exactly what we're talking about with interstitial pages.

            It seems to be allowed to do that.

            I can't see how it would make sense not to allow that.

            Imagine, for example, a vendor who sells their product via ClickBank (as a download) and via Amazon (as a physical product). On the main page there would be text saying this, this would lead to 2 separate interstitial pages - one describing the download product available from CB (with CB badge and pay link), and one describing the physical product available from Amazon. It would be downright deceptive to put a CB trust badge on all the pages - the only page it belongs on is the CB interstitial page.

            Another example is I have a site with around 1,000 pages of content. Most of them in someway, vaguely relate to marketing a product that I sell in CB, but only indirectly. The CB product is sold on 1 page of that site. It would be insane to put the badge on the other 999 pages.
            Signature
            ClickBank Vendor?
            - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
            - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
            - Killer Graphics for Your Site
            SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10407577].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author silvacourses
    I really don't understand any of this. We have always identified ClickBank as the seller exactly the way they asked us to. We have a ClickBank logo next to every Buy Now button, and this text: "Please click the button below to buy from ClickBank..." The button takes them to the ClickBank checkout page, which is clearly identified as ClickBank. Our thank you pages and download pages all have the information they required: "your credit card statement will show a charge from Clkbank*com." So what is the problem?

    Earlier this year ClickBank notified us of a chargeback on a physical product (self-improvement album published by Nightingale-Conant) that we had sold 6 months earlier. It was referred by an affiliate, so our profit on a $110 sales was less than $30, after we paid for the product and the postage and the cut to the affiliate and to ClickBank.

    ClickBank took back the $30 they had paid us, and also took the $30 chargeback fee out of our account!

    Including the cost of postage, we lost almost $70 on the transaction.

    ClickBank had the Delivery Confirmation number to prove the album was shipped and delivered. I asked them to dispute the chargeback, and they told me that Discover Card wouldn't allow merchants to dispute chargebacks!

    I check that out with Discover, and sent ClickBank a link to the Discover web site that clearly said that merchants can dispute chargebacks. Then ClickBack just said they weren't going to do it.

    So it seems that ClickBank is only the merchant when they want to be. When it comes to the chargeback - for a sale referred by their affiliate - and I don't even know who the affiliate - on a transaction that they approved - I didn't have any input into the approval - to a customer who is obviously dishonest but that ClickBank accepted - in that case, they suddenly are not the merchant, they are not responsible for the chargeback fee... they push it off on me!

    I guess it is time to move on. Our ClickBank sales (never very big) have decreased 75 percent from what they were 3 or 4 years ago. Same products, same web site - dramatically reduced sales. And only 10 percent of our sales come from affiliates.

    I would be happy to leave the site and accept the few sales that we get from it... as long as I don't have to do all this work that they now demand. We identify ClickBank as the seller next to every buy now button, and on our Thank You and Download pages. And they have it on their own checkout page.

    Makes no sense to me. And - to paraphrase Judge Judy - when it makes no sense... I don't believe it.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10407456].message }}
    • Originally Posted by silvacourses View Post

      I really don't understand any of this. We have always identified ClickBank as the seller exactly the way they asked us to. We have a ClickBank logo next to every Buy Now button, and this text: "Please click the button below to buy from ClickBank..." The button takes them to the ClickBank checkout page, which is clearly identified as ClickBank. Our thank you pages and download pages all have the information they required: "your credit card statement will show a charge from Clkbank*com." So what is the problem?

      Makes no sense to me. And - to paraphrase Judge Judy - when it makes no sense... I don't believe it.
      That's what puzzles me as well. With all that being done, now we also have to include that badge thing on our main sales pages.

      This badge thing has nothing to do with reducing refunds/chargebacks I tell you. It's getting more like we are spreading the word about Clickbank than our own products.
      Signature

      Website Design | App Creation | Video Marketing | Social Media | Web Hosting

      ==> SlashTouch.Com

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10407664].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author PatricKrost
    myob and JonPatrick,

    You guys know your discussion is pretty much pointless at this stage and it's only pollutting this thread.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10407468].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author marguerite
    As an affiliate and sometimes buyer, I see this as a good thing. It's good, for the buyer, to know who they are paying their money to. When you get a charge on your credit card from a company you do not recognize, it's very easy to get a refund. I have done it in the past, without any issues, no questions asked.

    It's in the best interest of Clickbank not to get chargebacks and one way to do that is to make susre that the buyer knows that they will be getting a charge on their statement coming from Clickbank.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10407706].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      Originally Posted by marguerite View Post

      It's good, for the buyer, to know who they are paying their money to.
      I agree, but buyers already know this. They pay on a ClickBank branded order form. Then they receive ClickBank branded order confirmation emails. And the "Thank You" page where they download their purchase tells them their credit card statement will say "ClickBank." If they're still confused after all of that, their bank/card company can easily find out what the charge was for.

      It's for these reasons that I and many others don't believe this is the real impetus for ClickBank's actions.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10407774].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

        The reality is that when a person seeks out a vendor's product, goes to the vendor's website, is convinced by the vendor to make a purchase, receives the product from the vendor, and then receives support after the sale from the vendor, that person is the vendor's customer. This is obvious on its face.
        Yes - I'll attest to that.
        Early on in the game I bought a product one time that sucked. Had to go dig around to figure out where I needed to go to get the refund. Had to go through clickbank for that. But realized them as some kind of payment processor - not the owner of the product itself.

        Originally Posted by myob View Post

        There is nothing on Clickbank's website to indicate that vendors are customers. No matter how many times you try to make the word "client" synonymous with the word "customer", this relationship exists only within your imagination, not a functioning reality at all in Clickbank's interpretation. They have been abundantly clear about how they manage vendors, affiliates, and their retail customers. You are free to disagree philosophically for whatever reason, but with a clear agenda such as yours, there really isn't much you can do about changing the terminology.
        If I were to list a product via clickbank, I would assume myself to be their customer. I have to pay money to do that. If I pay someone money for something I am their customer.

        https://support.clickbank.com/entrie...ClickBank-Fees



        Originally Posted by PatricKrost View Post

        myob and JonPatrick,

        You guys know your discussion is pretty much pointless at this stage and it's only pollutting this thread.
        Discussions like these are part of the way to really get to know others here in the community. They are IMO important for the survival of this very forum.

        (plus it's making what would be a very blazee technical issue worthy of clicking into to read IMO.)
        Signature

        "May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10407957].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
          OK, I've started adding the trust badge to some pages.

          I confine my comments to the technical aspects of the implementation, rather than whether it's something that is a good idea.

          1. The bottom tab badge is not too intrusive on an interstitial page.

          That said, it certainly does NOT belong on every page of a web site, so I am glad CB doesn't seem to want that. I think putting it on every page would be an immediate deal-breaker for many vendors who would otherwise live with it (and it would be deceptive or inappropriate on many websites too).

          2. As Harvey mentioned, you really ought to be able to set the badge appearance on a per product basis, rather than per account.

          That said, I don't think this is too much of a limitation - just choose neutral colours.

          Maybe CB could provide this option in future, such that there was a main account setting, which could be over-ridden for specific products it doesn't suit.

          3. If you don't set !DOCTYPE HTML, the badge simply doesn't appear. CB apparently requires the DOCTYPE thing to disable "quirks mode".

          This is a fairly BIG PROBLEM - as setting this messes up the appearance of every single legacy page that I have tried it on (obviously this issue might not affect people with newer website designs that already have this tag, but I can forsee this problem affecting a lot of vendors).

          Sometimes the messing up is quite small and barely noticeable.

          In other cases, carefully designed pages are seriously messed up. I can see some vendors being quite annoyed about this, given that they only have a couple of weeks (or about 1 month in the case of Platinums) to install the badge - so they are put in the position of choosing between being non-compliant or having a messed up design.

          I do not understand why CB has required this tag, or why ClickBank insisting quirks mode is disabled?. Every other floating gadget that I have tried, by other companies, always works regardless of quirks mode or not. ClickBank is the only floating that requires quirks mode be disabled.

          ClickBank should eliminate the requirement to disable quirks mode - and should do so urgently.

          4. The code for the badge looks like this:

          <script src='//cbtb.clickbank.net/?vendor=nickname'></script>

          If you have the same website template selling via multiple CB vendor accounts, you need to this to the template, and update the template in each case to match the nickname used to sell on that particular page.

          It would be helpful if CB allowed a list of nicknames in the parameter for such templates, as it would make it simply for vendors with multiple accounts to install:

          <script src='//cbtb.clickbank.net/?vendor=nickname'></script>

          or

          <script src='//cbtb.clickbank.net/?vendor=nickname1/nickname2/nickname3'></script>

          should both be allowed
          Signature
          ClickBank Vendor?
          - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
          - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
          - Killer Graphics for Your Site
          SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10409084].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
            Hi Sunil,

            The !DOCTYPE has been in widespread use for a decade or so, dating back to the browser wars between Netscape and Internet Explorer (Navigator 4 and IE5, respectively).

            Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

            3. If you don't set !DOCTYPE HTML, the badge simply doesn't appear. CB apparently requires the DOCTYPE thing to disable "quirks mode".

            This is a fairly BIG PROBLEM - as setting this messes up the appearance of every single legacy page that I have tried it on (obviously this issue might not affect people with newer website designs that already have this tag, but I can forsee this problem affecting a lot of vendors).
            While originally introduced simply to inform a web browser whether the web page was coded according to the (at that time) new W3C standards... or not, the !DOCTYPE statement has been expanded over time in order to allow for an "almost quirks mode".

            You can find a good explanation of all this on the Mozilla site here:
            https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/...Standards_Mode

            Sometimes the messing up is quite small and barely noticeable.

            In other cases, carefully designed pages are seriously messed up. I can see some vendors being quite annoyed about this, given that they only have a couple of weeks (or about 1 month in the case of Platinums) to install the badge - so they are put in the position of choosing between being non-compliant or having a messed up design.
            Your "carefully designed pages" were designed for those older browsers (whether you realized it, or not) with total disregard for W3C standards, simply because there was no !DOCTYPE statement included.

            I do not understand why CB has required this tag, or why ClickBank insisting quirks mode is disabled?. Every other floating gadget that I have tried, by other companies, always works regardless of quirks mode or not. ClickBank is the only floating that requires quirks mode be disabled.

            ClickBank should eliminate the requirement to disable quirks mode - and should do so urgently.
            An alternative might be for you to include a !DOCTYPE statement that invokes "almost quirks" mode.

            Hope this helps.
            Signature

            Sid Hale
            Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10409265].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
              Yep I agree the vendors pages which this applies to are old and non-standard, but since they work fine without the badge, I dont see a reason why cb should be forcing them to upgrade.... It's not cb's job to enforce modeRn html standards.

              And thanks for the tip.
              Signature
              ClickBank Vendor?
              - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
              - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
              - Killer Graphics for Your Site
              SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10409363].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author myob
                [DELETED]
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10409712].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author nolan59
                  this thread used to be a decent, intelligent discussion until myob, aka the troll, was let in....
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10409849].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
                    Can I add an intermediate page (between the sales page and the order form) so that I don't have to put the trust badge on the sales page?

                    Something like this:

                    Sales page -> Pre order page with badge -> Order form

                    Thanks
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10409860].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
                      Originally Posted by Pnigro View Post

                      Can I add an intermediate page (between the sales page and the order form) so that I don't have to put the trust badge on the sales page?

                      Something like this:

                      Sales page -> Pre order page with badge -> Order form

                      Thanks
                      Cb's instructioms say the badge is only required on pages with the payment link, so as long as the first page doesnt contain one, that seems to be permitted. It's what i have done.
                      Signature
                      ClickBank Vendor?
                      - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
                      - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
                      - Killer Graphics for Your Site
                      SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10410068].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Alex Antoniazzi
    Is anyone else having a problem with the badge and the coloring? I have mine installed and it is black...

    Http://brightdog.com/training

    Also I just noticed since I installed my page is screwed up, images in the wrong place , etc.
    Signature
    I'll Get You On The First Page Of Google...For FREE!https://alexantoniazzi.com
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10411598].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author trevord92
      Originally Posted by Alexbrightdog View Post

      Is anyone else having a problem with the badge and the coloring? I have mine installed and it is black...

      Http://brightdog.com/training

      Also I just noticed since I installed my page is screwed up, images in the wrong place , etc.
      Not sure where the images should have been in the first place but the bedge is black except in Firefox where it doesn't show for me.

      Whether it's to do with Clickbank's code or the various errors in your code is another matter.

      You can get your techie to check your HTML here although that can often be a thankless and tedious task that isn't necessarily worth doing if the page displays OK (even though a web purist would tell you otherwise!)
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10411617].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Wayne
      Originally Posted by Alexbrightdog View Post

      Is anyone else having a problem with the badge and the coloring? I have mine installed and it is black...

      Http://brightdog.com/training

      Also I just noticed since I installed my page is screwed up, images in the wrong place , etc.
      The badge shows up on IE, Firefox and Chrome the same for me. The badge is black on all of them. I don't really know what the badge is supposed to look like. The page looks the same to me on all 3 browsers, not sure if the images are in the correct place or not but it looks fine to me.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10412260].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
      Originally Posted by Alexbrightdog View Post

      Is anyone else having a problem with the badge and the coloring? I have mine installed and it is black...

      Http://brightdog.com/training

      Also I just noticed since I installed my page is screwed up, images in the wrong place , etc.
      Is the badge everyone is talking about the little clickbank thing in the bottom left corner? I think it looks pretty slick and makes your website look really nice and trustworthy. From reading all this I thought it was going to be a huge thing at the top of the site but that actually looks really nice.

      I've been looking into making money online for a long time and tried a lot of stuff and finally I discovered wordpress and plugins and now I have my first website, it looks really nice and I have banners advertising my free giveaway and it's all integrated with aweber and everything. I always thought this would all be wayyyyyy harder than it is, but it was kind of hard but I figured it all out.

      Right now I'm working on my first product that I'm going to sell with Clickbank. I haven't been on this forum in a long time and for some reason I signed in today and came across this thread. My heart did sink a bit reading all this since having a huge clickbank thing at the top of my site is not what I want.

      Seeing your site though, if this new required badge is just that little thing on the bottom left then I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH IT I think it looks awesome! I would add that to my site even if it wasn't a requirement, it just looks really nice and makes everything seem more professional, safe, and secure.

      I like it.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10412292].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
        I have ZERO coding experience. My experience with coding is basically copying my Aweber HTML and pasting it into my wordpress plugin.

        Will setting up this badge be that simple too or will I need an actual developer to set it up for me? :/
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10412298].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

        Is the badge everyone is talking about the little clickbank thing in the bottom left corner? I think it looks pretty slick and makes your website look really nice and trustworthy. From reading all this I thought it was going to be a huge thing at the top of the site but that actually looks really nice.
        The reason you thought that is because ClickBank has changed what they're doing as this thread has progressed and they've seen the backlash among their customer base.

        Their original scheme was to make everyone put their header and brand at the top of our websites, steal our traffic by putting a link to their own "marketplace" in that header, and redirect all of our websites to ClickBank URLs so our domain names wouldn't show up in the user's address bar any more.

        They claimed the credit card companies were making them do these things, but that claim doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. It appears more likely that the real reason is that they want to become a retail destination for consumers (as their website and social media are now saying), and these actions would help them do that despite hurting the people who use their services.

        Because people were outraged, and didn't believe their claims about the credit card companies supposedly making them do these things, ClickBank backtracked and changed some of their demands.

        One thing they changed was the design of the header, which they're now calling a "trust badge." While it's not quite as bad as the original header, and can be placed in different areas as you mentioned, the fact is that they're making you put their brand on your website, whether you like it or not. Many people find that unacceptable for a number of reasons.

        Setting aside the principle of the matter, there are issues of customer confusion, reduced ability to provide content before revealing to the visitor that something is for sale, potential business partners taking you less seriously when they visit your website and see another company's brand slapped on it, etc.

        Furthermore, the wording of ClickBank's recent press release, in which they apologized for their initial version of this whole scheme, left them the option to bring back that link to their "marketplace" in the future. They've also chosen not to answer direct questions about that here in this thread.

        This means it's very likely that once they get their foot in the door with this "trust badge" on all of our websites, they're going to put in that link to their own site, and when that happens, your traffic will start getting sucked away into ClickBank's site instead of staying on your site where it belongs.

        For these reasons, I highly recommend looking at other options for processing payments and managing affiliates instead of going with ClickBank. I say this as a long-time vendor who was a huge fan of ClickBank before their new CEO and COO took over and came up with this whole scheme.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10412369].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
          Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

          The reason you thought that is because ClickBank has changed what they're doing as this thread has progressed and they've seen the backlash among their customer base.

          Their original scheme was to make everyone put their header and brand at the top of our websites, steal our traffic by putting a link to their own "marketplace" in that header, and redirect all of our websites to ClickBank URLs so our domain names wouldn't show up in the user's address bar any more.

          They claimed the credit card companies were making them do these things, but that claim doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. It appears more likely that the real reason is that they want to become a retail destination for consumers (as their website and social media are now saying), and these actions would help them do that despite hurting the people who use their services.

          Because people were outraged, and didn't believe their claims about the credit card companies supposedly making them do these things, ClickBank backtracked and changed some of their demands.

          One thing they changed was the design of the header, which they're now calling a "trust badge." While it's not quite as bad as the original header, and can be placed in different areas as you mentioned, the fact is that they're making you put their brand on your website, whether you like it or not. Many people find that unacceptable for a number of reasons.

          Setting aside the principle of the matter, there are issues of customer confusion, reduced ability to provide content before revealing to the user that something is for sale, potential business partners taking you less seriously when they visit your website and see another company's brand slapped on it, etc.

          Furthermore, the wording of ClickBank's recent press release, in which they apologized for their initial version of this whole scheme, left them the option to bring back that link to their "marketplace" in the future. They've also chosen not to answer direct questions about that here in this thread.

          This means it's very likely that once they get their foot in the door with this "trust badge" on all of our websites, they're going to put in that link to their own site, and when that happens, your traffic will start getting sucked away into ClickBank's site instead of staying on your site where it belongs.

          For this reason, I highly recommend looking at other options for processing payments and managing affiliates instead of going with ClickBank. I say this as a long-time vendor who was a huge fan of ClickBank before their new CEO and COO took over and came up with this whole scheme.
          Oh wow, well I'm glad they were smart enough to not force people to use a clickbank header, if they did I would have to just take the extra time to learn how to sell a different way.

          I don't have a problem with my sales page having that clickbank badge, I think it looks nice and will make customers feel more safe buying. It just helps the customer, it doesn't hurt at all imo.

          As far as clickbank wanting to drive our customers to their site I don't understand that. Most people don't want to be affiliate marketers or vendors so why would clickbank want our traffic?

          I guess I don't know much about it, I'm new to this stuff, but the little badge they have set up I think looks nice and I don't have a problem with it. If it ever becomes a problem I'll just have to get an LLC and set up with pay pal.

          Actually, do I need an LLC selling with clickbank? I don't know much about all the legal stuff behind starting a business.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10412381].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author myob
          Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

          I highly recommend looking at other options for processing payments and managing affiliates instead of going with ClickBank. I say this as a long-time vendor who was a huge fan of ClickBank before their new CEO and COO took over and came up with this whole scheme.
          Currently, Clickbank is the premier resource and marketplace for vendors looking for top-quality affiliates. As a long-time affiliate myself, and marketing consultant for selected new and prospective vendors, I can see no supporting indication that Clickbank has any ulterior motives regarding their recent behavior.

          From what I can tell, Clickbank's flurry of initiatives were nothing more than brainstorming for solutions to meeting the demands of bank partners; due mostly to Clickbank's apparently unacceptable rate of chargebacks. The buying process and customer service issues are very confusing to retail customers, as vendors historically have been notoriously unresponsive.

          In my own experience over the years, I have been using a similitude of Clickbank's "trust badge" on all of my custom sales pages, resulting in nearly zero refund rates. In addition, Clickbank's unconditional refund policy is an extremely powerful conversion tool, which is hardly ever leveraged on vendor sales pages. What I recommend is an alliance with Clickbank or "co-branding" by vendors. This is a solid business practice and can only enhance vendors' credibility through association with an increasingly recognizable and trustworthy brand.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10412485].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
            Myob, I'm glad to see that you've decided to post in a level-headed manner, and you're no longer engaging in the kind of behavior that got your last post deleted by the forum moderators. While I strongly disagree with the opinions you've put forward, I always welcome a substantive discussion.

            Originally Posted by myob View Post

            Currently, Clickbank is the premier resource and marketplace for vendors looking for top-quality affiliates. As a long-time affiliate myself, and marketing consultant for selected new and prospective vendors [my edit: where do you offer this consulting service?], I can see no supporting indication that Clickbank has any ulterior motives regarding their recent behavior. From what I can tell, Clickbank's flurry of initiatives were nothing more than brainstorming for solutions to meeting the demands of bank partners; due mostly to Clickbank's apparently unacceptable rate of chargebacks.
            I've addressed this line of thinking several times. I'll ask you again:

            How does putting a brand customers have never heard of onto all of our websites reduce chargebacks due to buyer confusion? They already pay on a ClickBank branded order form, receive order confirmation emails from ClickBank, and are clearly told on our "Thank You" pages that "ClickBank" will appear on their credit card statements. If they're still confused about why they're seeing "ClickBank" after all that, they'll be told during a chargeback investigation what the charge was for - problem solved on that count. So if a chargeback still happens, it's not because the buyer is confused about why "ClickBank" is on their credit card statement.

            I'll also ask what ClickBank's brand being stuck on everyone's websites against our will has to do with the EMV issue?

            I'll also ask why the card companies would want ClickBank to do something which doesn't address credit card fraud and is not the logical solution to the supposed problem of buyers being confused when they see "ClickBank" on their credit card statements?

            In my own experience over the years, I have been using a similitude of Clickbank's "trust badge" on all of my custom sales pages, resulting in nearly zero refund rates.
            ClickBank used language in their press release that gives them the option to put a link to their own "marketplace" back in that header/badge once they get their foot in the door. They also haven't answered direct questions about that here in this thread. If they do that, will you continue to be happy that you supported this idea?

            In addition, Clickbank's unconditional refund policy is an extremely powerful conversion tool, which is hardly ever leveraged on vendor sales pages.
            As I've mentioned, most payment processors take the side of buyers when it comes down to it, and a buyer's bank or card company will also reverse a charge. This really is nothing heroic on ClickBank's part. I'm sure if you can play this up to be a powerful conversion tool, you could turn visitors into conversions regardless of whether the vendor whose product you're promoting is using ClickBank.

            What I recommend is an alliance with Clickbank or "co-branding" by vendors. This is a solid business practice
            I don't believe it is a solid business practice to co-brand with a company that is known to have processed the sale of questionable products for years, and has revealed their desire to take over our websites for the benefit of their own "marketplace," only backing away from doing that (for now) because the backlash was too big.

            and can only enhance vendors' credibility through association with an increasingly recognizable and trustworthy brand.
            Why do you believe ClickBank is "an increasingly recognizable and trustworthy brand" when they have no reputation to speak of among consumers? The people who seek out and use ClickBank's services are vendors and affiliates.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10412506].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author myob
              Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

              Myob, I'm glad to see that you've decided to post in a level-headed manner, and you're no longer engaging in the kind of behavior that got your last post deleted by the forum moderators. While I strongly disagree with the opinions you've put forward, I always welcome a substantive discussion.
              I apologize to anyone who was offended, particularly by that last (now deleted) post. I was posting here in front of a live webinar audience (which I often do), and our conversations have increasingly been drawing raucous responses from my viewers. Although it was inexcusable behavior on this forum, my position seemed to be a popular sentiment (and a hilarious comedic performance) among this group of my Clickbank JV partners.

              Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

              I've addressed this line of thinking several times. I'll ask you again:

              How does putting a brand customers have never heard of onto all of our websites reduce chargebacks due to buyer confusion? They already pay on a ClickBank branded order form, receive order confirmation emails from ClickBank, and are clearly told on our "Thank You" pages that "ClickBank" will appear on their credit card statements. If they're still confused about why they're seeing "ClickBank" after all that, they'll be told during a chargeback investigation what the charge was for - problem solved on that count. So if a chargeback still happens, it's not because the buyer is confused about why "ClickBank" is on their credit card statement.

              I'll also ask what ClickBank's brand being stuck on everyone's websites against our will has to do with the EMV issue?

              I'll also ask why the card companies would want ClickBank to do something which doesn't address credit card fraud and is not the logical solution to the supposed problem of buyers being confused when they see "ClickBank" on their credit card statements?
              And I'll answer this again to the best of my knowledge. This action was apparently a compromise agreeable to Clickbank's bank partners and credit card provider demands. Credit card fraud is a growing problem worldwide, which has forced merchants everywhere to comply with requirements to take visible and internal security measures or face risk of financial exposure to losses through such fraud and chargebacks.

              Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

              ClickBank used language in their press release that gives them the option to put a link to their own "marketplace" back in that header/badge once they get their foot in the door. They also haven't answered direct questions about that here in this thread. If they do that, will you continue to be happy that you supported this idea?
              There is the possibility that the "trust badge" may not be enough, for which some future escalated response may be necessary. But your scenario is hypothetical, for which I have not seen any indication nor practical reason why Clickbank would jeopardize its client base with such unnecessary incursions. And again, as I have said before, I would dump Clickbank in a heartbeat if in fact their vision and direction becomes incompatible with my marketing goals. So far, they have become increasingly more inline with my own marketing values and practices.

              Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

              As I've mentioned, most payment processors take the side of buyers when it comes down to it, and a buyer's bank or card company will also reverse a charge. This really is nothing heroic on ClickBank's part. I'm sure if you can play this up to be a powerful conversion tool, you could turn visitors into conversions regardless of whether the vendor whose product you're promoting is using ClickBank.
              I think you are quite aware of my opinion about vendors by now, which is solidly based on direct experience. Retail customers really have been confused during the buying process, especially when they have issues requiring customer service. Vendors are notoriously deficient in responding to their buyers, which has most likely resulted in resolving unsatisfactory experiences through chargebacks. The mandatory "trust badge" is expected to ameliorate unresponsive vendor behavior through a Clickbank resolution for their customers.

              Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

              I don't believe it is a solid business practice to co-brand with a company that is known to have processed the sale of questionable products for years, and has revealed their desire to take over our websites for the benefit of their own "marketplace," only backing away from doing that (for now) because the backlash was too big.
              First of all, it is not the responsibility of Clickbank to check out every single product they sell. They already have policies in place for dealing with rogue vendors and protecting their retail customers through an unconditional refund policy. Secondly, it makes sound business sense for vendors to align their marketing behavior and practices with Clickbank's increasingly recognizable and trustworthy brand as well as their uncompromising customer protection standards. Co-branding with recognizable and trustworthy brands is a solid business practice.

              Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

              Why do you believe ClickBank is "an increasingly recognizable and trustworthy brand" when they have no reputation to speak of among consumers? The people who seek out and use ClickBank's services are vendors and affiliates.
              I think you are underestimating just how savvy consumers have become. You may not have read about it, but Clickbank has been in the news quite prominently lately, and increasingly on social media, forums, newsletters, ezines, podcasts, webinars, seminars, and even offline marketing venues. The MMO niche is relatively tiny compared to some others in the Clickbank Marketplace. You really should get around more.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10412626].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                Originally Posted by myob View Post

                I apologize to anyone who was offended, particularly by that last (now deleted) post. I was posting here in front of a live webinar audience (which I often do), and our conversations have increasingly been drawing raucous responses from my viewers. Although it was inexcusable behavior on this forum, my position seemed to be a popular sentiment (and a hilarious comedic performance) among this group of my Clickbank JV partners.
                Wait a second. Your behavior in this thread...

                - Calling everyone's concerns a "hissy fit"

                - Saying everyone is "bitching and complaining"

                - Repeating your claims numerous times after people have already addressed them

                - Making snide remarks that if we don't like what ClickBank is doing, we can get out

                - Calling a fellow member a "half-wit"

                - Spamming the words "blah blah blah blah blah blah" into the thread hundreds of times, which had to be deleted by the moderators

                ... this behavior has been for the sake of a "comedic performance" for some webinar you're doing?

                That is an egregious abuse of the forum. You're doing this in a highly popular thread where people are discussing an issue with serious ramifications for their businesses and incomes. To be frank, I think your behavior warrants being banned from the forum.

                And I'll answer this again to the best of my knowledge. This action was apparently a compromise agreeable to Clickbank's bank partners and credit card provider demands.
                That is not an answer to my questions. You're simply repeating the very claim that was challenged by my questions.

                Credit card fraud is a growing problem worldwide, which has forced merchants everywhere to comply with requirements to take visible and internal security measures or face risk of financial exposure to losses through such fraud and chargebacks.
                The claim that this is the impetus behind ClickBank's recent actions is precisely what was challenged by the questions I posed to you. Where is your answer?

                There is the possibility that the "trust badge" may not be enough, for which some future escalated response may be necessary. But your scenario is hypothetical, for which I have not seen any indication nor practical reason why Clickbank would jeopardize its client base with such unnecessary incursions.
                They already tried to do so. That is the topic we're discussing. It's only because of the backlash (the "hissy fit" and the "bitching and complaining" you lamented) that it hasn't happened yet.

                And again, as I have said before, I would dump Clickbank in a heartbeat if in fact their vision and direction becomes incompatible with my marketing goals. So far, they have become increasingly more inline with my own marketing values and practices.
                Their vision and direction is abundantly clear after their recent actions. They want to become a retail destination for consumers, and they're willing to engage in unethical behavior that harms the vendors and affiliates who use their services in order to do so. If that's something you're comfortable with, and I don't know why it would be, there are clearly many people who disagree, as evidenced by the backlash that forced ClickBank to reverse course (for now).

                I think you are quite aware of my opinion about vendors by now, which is solidly based on direct experience.
                Everyone who is prejudiced can make arguments for why their prejudice is true. Being prejudiced is still widely acknowledged as a bad thing.

                Retail customers really have been confused during the buying process, especially when they have issues requiring customer service. Vendors are notoriously deficient in responding to their buyers,
                Setting aside the "retail customers" terminology, where is the data on this?

                which has most likely resulted in resolving unsatisfactory experiences through chargebacks. The mandatory "trust badge" is expected to ameliorate unresponsive vendor behavior through a Clickbank resolution for their customers.
                You're completely making this up. It's not a justification ClickBank has provided. The justifications ClickBank has provided are:

                - It's to address the issue of buyers not knowing why "ClickBank" is on their credit card statements

                - It's to address the issue of fraud moving online due to the chipped card technology that makes it harder to commit fraud in person

                Both of these claims by ClickBank have been thoroughly dissected and refuted here in this thread, and they don't hold up to any scrutiny.

                First of all, it is not the responsibility of Clickbank to check out every single product they sell.
                Considering that they charge a screening fee to every vendor and their website claims they review each product, I'd say it is. I'd also point out that when miracle cures and gambling "systems" are sold through their platform for years, the idea that they're unaware of this is not credible.

                They already have policies in place for dealing with rogue vendors and protecting their retail customers through an unconditional refund policy.
                I've already addressed this overblown ClickBank hype several times. Most payment processors will take the side of a buyer when it comes down to it, and the buyer's bank/card company will also reverse a charge. This is nothing heroic on ClickBank's part.

                Secondly, it makes sound business sense for vendors to align their marketing behavior and practices with Clickbank's increasingly recognizable and trustworthy brand as well as their uncompromising customer protection standards. Co-branding with recognizable and trustworthy brands is a solid business practice.
                I directly addressed these exact claims in my previous post.

                I think you are underestimating just how savvy consumers have become. You may not have read about it, but Clickbank has been in the news quite prominently lately, and increasingly on social media, forums, newsletters, ezines, podcasts, webinars, seminars, and even offline marketing venues. The MMO niche is relatively tiny compared to some others in the Clickbank Marketplace. You really should get around more.
                You know you're not going to convince anybody who knows anything about ClickBank that they're a known brand among consumers, right?

                Why do you say things that we all know aren't true?

                Since I make a habit of addressing people's arguments specifically, I'll even do so here, although it's borderline absurd:

                Clickbank has been in the news quite prominently lately,
                Hogwash. I watch and read a lot of news, and I haven't seen any stories about ClickBank, much less enough to be considered "prominent." Scanning Google News for "ClickBank", the results have to do with things like the appointment of their new CEO, affiliate marketing techniques, "32 Places to Publish Your Ebook," corporate revenue numbers, and a story from 2014 in which recent CEO Matt Hulett calls them "part payments company and part marketing company for entrepreneurs" (an interesting quote in light of topics previously discussed in this thread). I'm not seeing all of the prominent news that supposedly brands ClickBank as a go-to retailer in the minds of consumers.

                and increasingly on social media, forums, newsletters, ezines, podcasts, webinars, seminars, and even offline marketing venues.
                ClickBank has always been discussed in places like social media, forums, podcasts, etc. - primarily by the vendors and affiliates who seek out and use their services. Why do you believe this is "increasingly" happening as it relates to ClickBank having brand recognition among consumers as some kind of retail destination?

                The MMO niche is relatively tiny compared to some others in the Clickbank Marketplace. You really should get around more.
                I didn't say anything about the MMO niche other than the fact that this is the only place in which ClickBank is a known entity to buyers. My experience is certainly not limited to that niche.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10413382].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author robofx
                  Banned
                  [DELETED]
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10417583].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author jscholz
    Good for Clickbank from a transparency perspective. Bad for sellers as customers are associating a sellers product with all other cb products, some of which could be very poor in quality. One bad cb experience could totally turn them off, when other cb products could be very beneficial. As soon as a disappointed customer sees that banner, they exit the page. In the long-term could hurt cb business , they will have to invest more in qc of products to make sure this doesn't happen. Seeing cb on a credit card bill should be enough.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10412413].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
      Originally Posted by jscholz View Post

      Good for Clickbank from a transparency perspective. Bad for sellers as customers are associating a sellers product with all other cb products, some of which could be very poor in quality. One bad cb experience could totally turn them off, when other cb products could be very beneficial. As soon as a disappointed customer sees that banner, they exit the page. In the long-term could hurt cb business , they will have to invest more in qc of products to make sure this doesn't happen. Seeing cb on a credit card bill should be enough.
      I agree, none of this should be happening, but compared to all of the benefits it's really not that big of a deal. Having their badge is a small price to pay in order to use their services.

      If someone buys a product at Target, and they have a horrible experience with it, they aren't going to feel iffy about everything sold at Target, they'll only be iffy about that particular brand they bought at target.

      I see clickbank the same way, only it's digital.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10412420].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

        Oh wow, well I'm glad they were smart enough to not force people to use a clickbank header, if they did I would have to just take the extra time to learn how to sell a different way.

        I don't have a problem with my sales page having that clickbank badge, I think it looks nice and will make customers feel more safe buying. It just helps the customer, it doesn't hurt at all imo.
        You really have to test something like that to see how it affects conversions. Sometimes the smallest change to a page can reduce your sales, and it often happens in ways you wouldn't expect and might find counter-intuitive.

        If it doesn't reduce conversions, and if this was all ClickBank wanted, then it wouldn't be an issue for a lot of people. But the jury is still out on that first one, and this is likely not all ClickBank wants, as I mentioned in my previous post.

        As far as clickbank wanting to drive our customers to their site I don't understand that. Most people don't want to be affiliate marketers or vendors so why would clickbank want our traffic?
        They're trying to become a retail destination for consumers.

        I guess I don't know much about it, I'm new to this stuff
        That's OK. This forum is all about finding out things you don't know, and helping other people do the same.

        but the little badge they have set up I think looks nice and I don't have a problem with it. If it ever becomes a problem
        If you do choose to move forward with using ClickBank, I would strongly suggest getting alternative methods of payment processing and affiliate management in place for when you need to migrate away from ClickBank later on. The "trust badge" is probably not the end of ClickBank's plans to take over our website assets for their own benefit, which they have clearly indicated is what they want to do.

        I'll just have to get an LLC and set up with pay pal.

        Actually, do I need an LLC selling with clickbank? I don't know much about all the legal stuff behind starting a business.
        You don't need an LLC to set up an account with Paypal or ClickBank.

        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

        I agree, none of this should be happening, but compared to all of the benefits it's really not that big of a deal. Having their badge is a small price to pay in order to use their services.
        Their services have always been available. Forcing everyone to put their "badge" on our websites against our will is a new thing, and has to be viewed on its own merits. It's just a scaled back version of their original scheme to subjugate all of our websites to their "marketplace," which failed due to the backlash among their customer base. Now they've decided to take it slow and get their foot in the door with this "trust badge" before moving forward with the rest of their plans. It's really a bigger deal than you might think as someone who is just starting to get acquainted with the situation, so I understand why you're seeing it the way you are.

        If someone buys a product at Target, and they have a horrible experience with it, they aren't going to feel iffy about everything sold at Target, they'll only be iffy about that particular brand they bought at target.

        I see clickbank the same way, only it's digital.
        Target already has a well established brand, though. You know they're a reputable retailer. ClickBank is an unknown company to most consumers, and if your visitor chooses to research them, they might see things you don't want to be associated with. They might also find out that ClickBank gives out refunds like candy, and decide to go ahead and get your product for free by taking advantage of that (which also increases your refund rate, something ClickBank holds against you). They might also go to ClickBank's site and see miracle cures and gambling system scams, and get bad vibes about your product because of that.

        And that's all having to do with the "trust badge" itself. The fact that ClickBank is likely to resume the other parts of their scheme after getting their foot in the door is a whole additional issue.

        I realize I'm laying a lot of information on you, but you have to consider these things. Again, I would stay away from ClickBank if I was a new product seller looking for payment processing and affiliate management services. After their recent behavior, I no longer view them as a trustworthy company, and I say that as someone who has used their services for a long time.

        If you must use ClickBank, please don't be unprepared for what they'll do in the future, and get caught flatfooted when they roll out some new scheme that damages your business. Have other plans in place for when that time comes, so you can migrate away from ClickBank easily.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10412493].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
          Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

          You really have to test something like that to see how it affects conversions. Sometimes the smallest change to a page can reduce your sales, and it often happens in ways you wouldn't expect and might find counter-intuitive.

          If it doesn't reduce conversions, and if this was all ClickBank wanted, then it wouldn't be an issue for a lot of people. But the jury is still out on that first one, and this is likely not all ClickBank wants, as I mentioned in my previous post.



          They're trying to become a retail destination for consumers.



          That's OK. This forum is all about finding out things you don't know, and helping other people do the same.



          If you do choose to move forward with using ClickBank, I would strongly suggest getting alternative methods of payment processing and affiliate management in place for when you need to migrate away from ClickBank later on. The "trust badge" is probably not the end of ClickBank's plans to take over our website assets for their own benefit, which they have clearly indicated is what they want to do.



          You don't need an LLC to set up an account with Paypal or ClickBank.



          Their services have always been available. Forcing everyone to put their "badge" on our websites against our will is a new thing, and has to be viewed on its own merits. It's just a scaled back version of their original scheme to subjugate all of our websites to their "marketplace," which failed due to the backlash among their customer base. Now they've decided to take it slow and get their foot in the door with this "trust badge" before moving forward with the rest of their plans. It's really a bigger deal than you might think as someone who is just starting to get acquainted with the situation, so I understand why you're seeing it the way you are.



          Target already has a well established brand, though. You know they're a reputable retailer. ClickBank is an unknown company to most consumers, and if your visitor chooses to research them, they might see things you don't want to be associated with. They might also find out that ClickBank gives out refunds like candy, and decide to go ahead and get your product for free by taking advantage of that (which also increases your refund rate, something ClickBank holds against you). They might also go to ClickBank's site and see miracle cures and gambling system scams, and get bad vibes about your product because of that.

          And that's all having to do with the "trust badge" itself. The fact that ClickBank is likely to resume the other parts of their scheme after getting their foot in the door is a whole additional issue.

          I realize I'm laying a lot of information on you, but you have to consider these things. Again, I would stay away from ClickBank if I was a new product seller looking for payment processing and affiliate management services. After their recent behavior, I no longer view them as a trustworthy company, and I say that as someone who has used their services for a long time.

          If you must use ClickBank, please don't be unprepared for what they'll do in the future, and get caught flatfooted when they roll out some new scheme that damages your business. Have other plans in place for when that time comes, so you can migrate away from ClickBank easily.
          If Clickbank did try to turn into a marketplace for customers to go to like Amazon wouldn't that be a super good thing for everyone who is in it from the beginning?

          I see people leaving my page to check out what's for sale in clickbanks market place would be bad because they're leaving my page, but then also everyone else selling in my niche and related niches will also have their customers leaving their pages to go to the market place, and then those customers could find my product, which means good, target traffic for me, and for free.

          To me, that kind of sounds like a huge opportunity to cash in big time, that would be like being one of the first to have erotica on amazon. An afternoons worth of work pays off 30 grand a month for a few years.

          And, if they do go through with all this, and it turns out to suck really bad, then I can always worry about finding a new way to process payments when the time comes.

          Right now, even with all this new stuff going on clickbank is still more appealing to me than any other thing I've heard of.

          I'm just really excited to have my first product done and up for sale and everything, I'll be so happy.

          My biggest worries right now are learning how to secure my site so if someone goes to mysite.com/wordpressuploads or whatever it is that they can't actually get to the page and the 404 error comes up. There's something like that I need to figure out, and then I need to learn how to securely deliver a file because I heard if I just make a download page that people can just give away that page and download my product for free? Idk, I'll worry about it when the time comes, but I feel like clickbank will be the best place to start, and who knows, maybe they'll grow like flipping crazy and everyone in it right now will just get to ride along on a huge wave of cash
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10412854].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author trevord92
            Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

            If Clickbank did try to turn into a marketplace for customers to go to like Amazon wouldn't that be a super good thing for everyone who is in it from the beginning?
            I see people leaving my page to check out what's for sale in clickbanks market place would be bad because they're leaving my page, but then also everyone else selling in my niche and related niches will also have their customers leaving their pages to go to the market place, and then those customers could find my product, which means good, target traffic for me, and for free.
            If you're happy for people to leave your page and for you not to get any commission then I guess that's "OK".

            With real retailers like Amazon you're cookied in for all products bought in a given time period.

            With "retailers" like Clickbank you're not cookied in so you don't get commission except on the product you initially link to.

            Unless the Clickbank marketplace search improves dramatically no-one is likely to use it to search for something. And even if they did,.almost all the descriptions currently are aimed at getting affiliates to join rather than customers to buy.

            Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

            And, if they do go through with all this, and it turns out to suck really bad, then I can always worry about finding a new way to process payments when the time comes.
            Any affiliates you have attracted (one of the advantages of Clickbank) will send you traffic for free until the work out that you've changed processor. Good for you short term, bad for you longer term as it would leave a sour taste woth the affiliates.

            There's no built-in way to contact them via Clickbank.

            Having recently changed three products away from Clickbank, it's not trivial if you've got multiple pages on a site - changing buttons, removing the required references to Clickbank on the sales page and the thank you page, changing all the references on the affiliate sign up page, maybe changing autorespomder sequences if you were tracking where sales came from, etc.

            Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

            My biggest worries right now are learning how to secure my site so if someone goes to mysite.com/wordpressuploads or whatever it is that they can't actually get to the page and the 404 error comes up. There's something like that I need to figure out, and then I need to learn how to securely deliver a file because I heard if I just make a download page that people can just give away that page and download my product for free? Idk, I'll worry about it when the time comes, but I feel like clickbank will be the best place to start, and who knows, maybe they'll grow like flipping crazy and everyone in it right now will just get to ride along on a huge wave of cash
            WordPress is fairly good at stopping people going directly into admin areas or you can find people who can help you sort out any issues. Obviously any direct links to the file would work - that happens and the people who do that probably wouldn't have paid anyway.

            Lots of plugins for WordPress to deal with page not found issues. Or just get a techie to sort out a line in .htaccess

            Securing your download page isn't something that using Clickbank helps with.

            There are other options for that although whether they're worth doing is another matter (Hollywood hasn't exactly been successful at stopping piracy).

            Even using Clickbank's file delivery option (not tried it and it would be another thing to change if you moved from them) won't stop people sharing the file when it's been downloaded.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10413017].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
              Originally Posted by trevord92 View Post

              If you're happy for people to leave your page and for you not to get any commission then I guess that's "OK".

              With real retailers like Amazon you're cookied in for all products bought in a given time period.

              With "retailers" like Clickbank you're not cookied in so you don't get commission except on the product you initially link to.

              Unless the Clickbank marketplace search improves dramatically no-one is likely to use it to search for something. And even if they did,.almost all the descriptions currently are aimed at getting affiliates to join rather than customers to buy.


              Any affiliates you have attracted (one of the advantages of Clickbank) will send you traffic for free until the work out that you've changed processor. Good for you short term, bad for you longer term as it would leave a sour taste woth the affiliates.

              There's no built-in way to contact them via Clickbank.

              Having recently changed three products away from Clickbank, it's not trivial if you've got multiple pages on a site - changing buttons, removing the required references to Clickbank on the sales page and the thank you page, changing all the references on the affiliate sign up page, maybe changing autorespomder sequences if you were tracking where sales came from, etc.


              WordPress is fairly good at stopping people going directly into admin areas or you can find people who can help you sort out any issues. Obviously any direct links to the file would work - that happens and the people who do that probably wouldn't have paid anyway.

              Lots of plugins for WordPress to deal with page not found issues. Or just get a techie to sort out a line in .htaccess

              Securing your download page isn't something that using Clickbank helps with.

              There are other options for that although whether they're worth doing is another matter (Hollywood hasn't exactly been successful at stopping piracy).

              Even using Clickbank's file delivery option (not tried it and it would be another thing to change if you moved from them) won't stop people sharing the file when it's been downloaded.
              With the way clickbank is right this second I don't think them linking to their market place is anything to worry about because any customer would leave immediately. It's set up for affiliates a regular customer wouldn't have any reason to be in the clickbank market place, so if they do go through with everything I'm sure the marketplace will be completely updated, and redesigned for customers to shop on, and if they did that I'm sure they'd update their cookies system and what not.

              Like I said I don't know much about this but I'm sure clickbank's goal is to be the #1 place for vendors and affiliates to go to, and have as much success as possible as easily as possible. If they go through with a bad idea, I'm sure it won't stick.

              I wasn't even aware that clickbank will deliver my product for me. The only videos I could find on it were super old, so if I understand you right, then that is AWESOME, and a huge worry off of my chest. I thought I was going to have to pay some company to deliver my product for me.

              I have my free giveaway just uploaded to my wordpress site, and once they sign up to my list and confirm it brings them to the download page which is mysite.com/randomnumbers but if I do that with a paid product it would be too easy for people to just share the link mysite.com/randomnumbers that's what I'm worried about. I know if my stuff is discovered it will get torrented and shared in other ways, but if these people are going to find ways to get it for free I don't want it to be as easy as just going to mysite.com/randomnumbers.

              So if clickbank delivers the product for me, that's AWESOME, I never knew that. Hope I understood you right.

              Anyways though I think it's great to be cautious, and I think it's great that clickbank is listening to peoples feedback, and I think in the end whatever they do will work out for everyone.

              Even if it did turn out bad, wouldn't it still be good to just stay in clickbank for their affiliates and then just make another identical sales page where you use something besides clickbank?

              Maybe I'm too optimistic, or too excited to finally have my first product up for sale all legit and done right, but I just feel like clickbank is the place to be.

              Imagine if they did do a complete redesign and become a place for random customers to browse products, and if cookies were set up like on amazon. That would make affiliates an insane amount of money. Refer people to one product, then they go to the market place and buy like 3, then that would be a great thing for affiliates. There's no reason to worry about it right now though there's no way clickbank would want random customers going to their site right now, it's not set up for it. Once it is set up for it, they'll have to make it work for everyone or else all the affiliates will leave, and if they all leave so will all the vendors, and I doubt clickbanks goal is to go out of business so really I wouldn't be so worried about it. I'm sure in the end everything will be golden.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10413414].message }}
          • Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

            If Clickbank did try to turn into a marketplace for customers to go to like Amazon wouldn't that be a super good thing for everyone who is in it from the beginning?

            I see people leaving my page to check out what's for sale in clickbanks market place would be bad because they're leaving my page, but then also everyone else selling in my niche and related niches will also have their customers leaving their pages to go to the market place, and then those customers could find my product, which means good, target traffic for me, and for free.

            To me, that kind of sounds like a huge opportunity to cash in big time, that would be like being one of the first to have erotica on amazon. An afternoons worth of work pays off 30 grand a month for a few years.
            You can't be serious. You pre-sell (video, review page, email, etc) a product, potential customer goes to the product you've pre-sold, exits the sales page via Clickbank trust badge, goes along and searches Clickbank market place then buys another product... I don't see that happening.

            And taking to account this is targeted traffic. You'll just be shooting in the dark.
            Signature

            Website Design | App Creation | Video Marketing | Social Media | Web Hosting

            ==> SlashTouch.Com

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10413319].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
            Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

            If Clickbank did try to turn into a marketplace for customers to go to like Amazon wouldn't that be a super good thing for everyone who is in it from the beginning?

            I see people leaving my page to check out what's for sale in clickbanks market place would be bad because they're leaving my page, but then also everyone else selling in my niche and related niches will also have their customers leaving their pages to go to the market place, and then those customers could find my product, which means good, target traffic for me, and for free.
            Because you're new to being a product seller, you're thinking about these issues for the first time. As your experience grows, you will learn that the last thing you want is for someone to leave your website after they come there thinking about buying something. This is called a "leak," and it's almost always a bad thing.

            You want your potential buyers focused on your product and kept on your page until they buy. Letting them be siphoned away by another company to look at a bunch of other products is not what you want. They might or might not end up purchasing a different product (and by extension, visitors who started out on someone else's website might or might not end up purchasing yours), but you're introducing a bunch of intermediate steps between the initial visit and the purchase. With every intermediate step, the likelihood of a purchase typically decreases.

            To me, that kind of sounds like a huge opportunity to cash in big time, that would be like being one of the first to have erotica on amazon. An afternoons worth of work pays off 30 grand a month for a few years.
            It's really not the same. Amazon has their own traffic, a thriving marketplace, and massive brand equity among consumers. ClickBank doesn't. Any traffic ClickBank sends to your product from their marketplace is going to be taken from somebody else's website, and vice versa.

            And, if they do go through with all this, and it turns out to suck really bad, then I can always worry about finding a new way to process payments when the time comes.
            I would worry about it now, so when the time comes you'll be prepared for an easy migration away from ClickBank, and you won't be caught flatfooted having to unexpectedly shift directions with your business. I would also make a serious effort to identify and be in contact with any affiliates who promote your product, so you can take them with you during a migration.

            Right now, even with all this new stuff going on clickbank is still more appealing to me than any other thing I've heard of.
            You have to do what you think is right, but I would seriously consider looking at alternative payment processors and affiliate management services. At least have your options in place for when you need to switch away from ClickBank in the future.

            I'm just really excited to have my first product done and up for sale and everything, I'll be so happy.
            Yeah, that's a beautiful thing. I get that same feeling every time I make headway in my business. The work you've done stands on its own, and it will remain valuable regardless of what ClickBank does, as long as you're not reliant on their services.

            My biggest worries right now are learning how to secure my site so if someone goes to mysite.com/wordpressuploads or whatever it is that they can't actually get to the page and the 404 error comes up. There's something like that I need to figure out, and then I need to learn how to securely deliver a file because I heard if I just make a download page that people can just give away that page and download my product for free? Idk, I'll worry about it when the time comes, but I feel like clickbank will be the best place to start, and who knows, maybe they'll grow like flipping crazy and everyone in it right now will just get to ride along on a huge wave of cash
            Their idea of growing is to build their own marketplace by taking over the website assets of the customers who use their payment processing and affiliate management services. It's not a pretty picture, unfortunately.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10413405].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
              Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

              Because you're new to being a product seller, you're thinking about these issues for the first time. As your experience grows, you will learn that the last thing you want is for someone to leave your website after they come there thinking about buying something. This is called a "leak," and it's almost always a bad thing.

              You want your potential buyers focused on your product and kept on your page until they buy. Letting them be siphoned away by another company to look at a bunch of other products is not what you want. They might or might not end up purchasing a different product (and by extension, visitors who started out on someone else's website might or might not end up purchasing yours), but you're introducing a bunch of intermediate steps between the initial visit and the purchase. With every intermediate step, the likelihood of a purchase typically decreases.



              It's really not the same. Amazon has their own traffic, a thriving marketplace, and massive brand equity among consumers. ClickBank doesn't. Any traffic ClickBank sends to your product from their marketplace is going to be taken from somebody else's website, and vice versa.



              I would worry about it now, so when the time comes you'll be prepared for an easy migration away from ClickBank, and you won't be caught flatfooted having to unexpectedly shift directions with your business. I would also make a serious effort to identify and be in contact with any affiliates who promote your product, so you can take them with you during a migration.



              You have to do what you think is right, but I would seriously consider looking at alternative payment processors and affiliate management services. At least have your options in place for when you need to switch away from ClickBank in the future.



              Their idea of growing is to build their own marketplace by taking over the website assets of the customers who use their payment processing and affiliate management services. It's not a pretty picture, unfortunately.
              Yea, you bring up a lot of really good points, but I just can't imagine clickbank destroying themselves like that. I really think everything will be pretty sweet actually. I can't imagine that badge taking more than 1 out of 1,000 people off of my site honestly. If someone wants to leave my site because of a little clickbank badge then they probably weren't too interested in my offer to begin with. I don't even see 1/10,000 leaving my page to go to clickbank. And hey, if people did, then the big time vendors in my niche, their traffic would leak too and possibly find me, so that could make me tons of money I wouldn't make otherwise. It's almost like auto affiliates, just sharing customers. The only thing I'm worried about is too many people creating products and having there be too much choice like on amazon.

              If everyone and their mom has a product on clickbank, then the whole thing becomes redundant. Also, their whole clickbank university thing isn't helping anything. It's just getting people to rush and make anything they can as fast as possible and get it up on clickbank, so they're kind of polluting their own market with trash.

              Maybe you're completely right actually. Maybe this company truly is shooting itself in the foot.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10413440].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                With the way clickbank is right this second I don't think them linking to their market place is anything to worry about because any customer would leave immediately. It's set up for affiliates a regular customer wouldn't have any reason to be in the clickbank market place, so if they do go through with everything I'm sure the marketplace will be completely updated, and redesigned for customers to shop on, and if they did that I'm sure they'd update their cookies system and what not.
                You can see on their main website that they're now listing products outside the affiliate marketplace, in what looks like an attempt at creating a marketplace for buyers. It's a very poor marketplace, which is surprising considering the resources at their disposal. Ethical issues aside, I've become more and more convinced that we are dealing with a dinosaur company that has little ability to innovate and execute in today's eCommerce landscape.

                Like I said I don't know much about this but I'm sure clickbank's goal is to be the #1 place for vendors and affiliates to go to, and have as much success as possible as easily as possible. If they go through with a bad idea, I'm sure it won't stick.
                Sometimes the leadership at a company decides that what's in their best interests is not the same thing as what's in the best interests of the people who use their services. Based on what ClickBank has attempted to do with this whole scheme, it seems clear that this is the case here.

                I wasn't even aware that clickbank will deliver my product for me. The only videos I could find on it were super old, so if I understand you right, then that is AWESOME, and a huge worry off of my chest. I thought I was going to have to pay some company to deliver my product for me.
                It's actually extremely easy to deliver a download to a buyer, and basic safeguards for security are not difficult to implement. Ultimately, if people want to pirate your product, they will. ClickBank is unlikely to have any magical way of stopping people from doing that if they deliver the download.

                I have my free giveaway just uploaded to my wordpress site, and once they sign up to my list and confirm it brings them to the download page which is mysite.com/randomnumbers but if I do that with a paid product it would be too easy for people to just share the link mysite.com/randomnumbers that's what I'm worried about. I know if my stuff is discovered it will get torrented and shared in other ways, but if these people are going to find ways to get it for free I don't want it to be as easy as just going to mysite.com/randomnumbers.
                You can change that link on a daily basis if you like, which would make any shared links very short-lived.

                Anyways though I think it's great to be cautious, and I think it's great that clickbank is listening to peoples feedback, and I think in the end whatever they do will work out for everyone.
                I think viewing them as a benevolent company listening to people's feedback is unfortunately misguided. They conceived and tried to roll out a scheme which would harm their customers for their own benefit. After the outrage that ensued, they partially rolled it back, but have kept some parts going while leaving themselves the option to bring other parts back in the future (based on the wording in their press release and their refusal to answer direct questions about that.) In my view, they're doing whatever they think they can get away with.

                Even if it did turn out bad, wouldn't it still be good to just stay in clickbank for their affiliates and then just make another identical sales page where you use something besides clickbank?
                Perhaps, as long as you aren't reliant on ClickBank. You could add code to your website that only shows ClickBank's buy button and "trust badge" (with whatever resulting garbage they add over time) if the visitor came from a ClickBank hoplink. A lot of vendors will be doing that, I'm sure.

                Maybe I'm too optimistic, or too excited to finally have my first product up for sale all legit and done right, but I just feel like clickbank is the place to be.

                Imagine if they did do a complete redesign and become a place for random customers to browse products, and if cookies were set up like on amazon. That would make affiliates an insane amount of money. Refer people to one product, then they go to the market place and buy like 3, then that would be a great thing for affiliates.
                Based on the fact that when they tried to put a link to their "marketplace" on all of our websites, they weren't going to credit anyone with any commissions, it seems clear that their desire is to pay out the least possible amount they can get away with if you send someone to their site. That desire doesn't seem like a good foundation for establishing a long-term partnership.

                There's no reason to worry about it right now though there's no way clickbank would want random customers going to their site right now, it's not set up for it.
                They already tried to insert the link into all of our websites.

                Once it is set up for it, they'll have to make it work for everyone or else all the affiliates will leave, and if they all leave so will all the vendors, and I doubt clickbanks goal is to go out of business so really I wouldn't be so worried about it. I'm sure in the end everything will be golden.
                If you like the idea of ClickBank being the destination for buyers, having control over your traffic, having control over the branding on your website (assuming they don't just redirect your website to a page on their own site, as they tried to do already), having possession of your product and controlling the delivery, etc., then this could be appealing.

                After seeing how this company thinks, and how they've tried to use power they already have over the vendors and affiliates who use their services, that sounds like a nightmare to me.

                Yea, you bring up a lot of really good points, but I just can't imagine clickbank destroying themselves like that. I really think everything will be pretty sweet actually. I can't imagine that badge taking more than 1 out of 1,000 people off of my site honestly. If someone wants to leave my site because of a little clickbank badge then they probably weren't too interested in my offer to begin with. I don't even see 1/10,000 leaving my page to go to clickbank.
                Please understand that if ClickBank puts that link to their marketplace back on everyone's websites, they'll be doing so because they want people to use it. They're unlikely to implement this in a way that has the result you're describing, where everybody stays on your site.

                And hey, if people did, then the big time vendors in my niche, their traffic would leak too and possibly find me, so that could make me tons of money I wouldn't make otherwise. It's almost like auto affiliates, just sharing customers.
                Please consider my previous statements about adding intermediate steps between the initial visit and the purchase, and about no traffic coming to one site through the marketplace that wasn't taken from another site.

                That last part could benefit you when you start out and have no traffic, but as soon as you're established (which of course you intend to be), it's just a traffic suck.

                The only thing I'm worried about is too many people creating products and having there be too much choice like on amazon.

                If everyone and their mom has a product on clickbank, then the whole thing becomes redundant. Also, their whole clickbank university thing isn't helping anything. It's just getting people to rush and make anything they can as fast as possible and get it up on clickbank, so they're kind of polluting their own market with trash.

                Maybe you're completely right actually. Maybe this company truly is shooting itself in the foot.
                Yes, that's a great point. Oversaturation of products in the marketplace is definitely another concern here.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10413525].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
                  Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                  Based on the fact that when they tried to put a link to their "marketplace" on all of our websites, they weren't going to credit anyone with any commissions, it seems clear that their desire is to pay out the least possible amount they can get away with if you send someone to their site.
                  ClickBank make the same profit from a sale regardless of whether or not there is an affiliate.

                  .
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10413655].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                    Originally Posted by Harvey Segal View Post

                    ClickBank make the same profit from a sale regardless of whether or not there is an affiliate.
                    Fair enough. I guess the reason was that they just didn't care enough to make sure people got their commissions.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10413665].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
                Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                With the way clickbank is right this second I don't think them linking to their market place is anything to worry about because any customer would leave immediately. It's set up for affiliates a regular customer wouldn't have any reason to be in the clickbank market place, so if they do go through with everything I'm sure the marketplace will be completely updated, and redesigned for customers to shop on, and if they did that I'm sure they'd update their cookies system and what not.
                Apparently, you haven't been to ClickBank | A Global Internet Retailer in a while.

                Take a moment to do that now (just click the link above). That page is NOT set up for affiliates.
                It is their new "Always On Shopping Portal", or "Global Marketplace" for consumers. You have to click a link at the top of the page to get to the Affiliate Marketplace.

                It's been that way for about 2 months now, and when they began forcing vendors (about a month ago) to implement the code for the ClickBank header - it contained a prominent link to the new shopping portal in that header. The shopping portal DOES NOT use the ClickBank cookie for other products that the visitor might purchase.

                So the facts are that the site has already been redesigned for customers to shop on and they have NOT updated anything in their cookie system to allow the original referrer (the affiliate) to benefit from sending them that traffic.

                Their official launch of that header lasted less than 24 hours, before they conceded to the vendors dissatisfaction with the whole thing and rolled it back.

                Like I said I don't know much about this but I'm sure clickbank's goal is to be the #1 place for vendors and affiliates to go to, and have as much success as possible as easily as possible.
                That was their goal in the past. They have been very clear in expressing that their business model for the future is to provide an online consumer marketplace for digital products.

                Maybe I'm too optimistic, or too excited to finally have my first product up for sale all legit and done right, but I just feel like clickbank is the place to be.
                I think you're exhibiting naivete, rather than just optimism. With all due respect, you'll do much better in business when you begin to make decisions based on something other than just what you "feel like".

                Imagine if they did do a complete redesign and become a place for random customers to browse products, and if cookies were set up like on amazon.
                Again, I suggest you have a look at ClickBank | A Global Internet Retailer

                That redesign has been done and has been in place for a couple of months. In that 2+ months, nothing has been done to alter the use of cookies (or should I say... lack thereof) from that marketplace.


                There's no reason to worry about it right now though there's no way clickbank would want random customers going to their site right now, it's not set up for it. Once it is set up for it, they'll have to make it work for everyone or else all the affiliates will leave, and if they all leave so will all the vendors, and I doubt clickbanks goal is to go out of business so really I wouldn't be so worried about it. I'm sure in the end everything will be golden.
                Like I said before, their HOME page is a consumer marketplace, so they obviously DO want random customers going to their site. They haven't "made it work for everyone", because like any business, they are looking out for themselves, first, and their new business model is focused on the "random" consumer - not the vendor nor the affiliate.

                Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                Yea, you bring up a lot of really good points, but I just can't imagine clickbank destroying themselves like that.
                Oh, they aren't intending to destroy themselves.

                That would be foolish... but this is a significant change to their marketing strategy to support a shift in their overall business plan of promoting their brand as a consumer marketplace rather than a service to vendors.

                Maybe you're completely right actually. Maybe this company truly is shooting itself in the foot.
                Whether they are or not, is immaterial. What should be important to you is that they are shooting their affiliates and their vendors in the foot.

                If their consumer marketplace is successful, many vendors may still be able to benefit from similar levels of sales as they experience today using affiliates to drive the traffic - but many will not.

                Those that do not achieve the same level of success from the marketplace, will also see their affiliate sales decline simply because many of those affiliates will prefer to promote products where they don't have to compete with a prominent consumer marketplace.
                Signature

                Sid Hale
                Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10413593].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                  Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

                  Apparently, you haven't been to ClickBank | A Global Internet Retailer in a while.

                  Take a moment to do that now (just click the link above). That page is NOT set up for affiliates.
                  It is their new "Always On Shopping Portal", or "Global Marketplace" for consumers. You have to click a link at the top of the page to get to the Affiliate Marketplace.

                  It's been that way for about 2 months now, and when they began forcing vendors (about a month ago) to implement the code for the ClickBank header - it contained a prominent link to the new shopping portal in that header. The shopping portal DOES NOT use the ClickBank cookie for other products that the visitor might purchase.

                  So the facts are that the site has already been redesigned for customers to shop on and they have NOT updated anything in their cookie system to allow the original referrer (the affiliate) to benefit from sending them that traffic.

                  Their official launch of that header lasted less than 24 hours, before they conceded to the vendors dissatisfaction with the whole thing and rolled it back.



                  That was their goal in the past. They have been very clear in expressing that their business model for the future is to provide an online consumer marketplace for digital products.



                  I think you're exhibiting naivete, rather than just optimism. With all due respect, you'll do much better in business when you begin to make decisions based on something other than just what you "feel like".



                  Again, I suggest you have a look at ClickBank | A Global Internet Retailer

                  That redesign has been done and has been in place for a couple of months. In that 2+ months, nothing has been done to alter the use of cookies (or should I say... lack thereof) from that marketplace.




                  Like I said before, their HOME page is a consumer marketplace, so they obviously DO want random customers going to their site. They haven't "made it work for everyone", because like any business, they are looking out for themselves, first, and their new business model is focused on the "random" consumer - not the vendor nor the affiliate.



                  Oh, they aren't intending to destroy themselves.

                  That would be foolish... but this is a significant change to their marketing strategy to support a shift in their overall business plan of promoting their brand as a consumer marketplace rather than a service to vendors.



                  Whether they are or not, is immaterial. What should be important to you is that they are shooting their affiliates and their vendors in the foot.

                  If their consumer marketplace is successful, many vendors may still be able to benefit from similar levels of sales as they experience today using affiliates to drive the traffic - but many will not.

                  Those that do not achieve the same level of success from the marketplace, will also see their affiliate sales decline simply because many of those affiliates will prefer to promote products where they don't have to compete with a prominent consumer marketplace.
                  Wow you're completely right. I go to clickbank.com everyday I just never realized anything because I never scroll down to see what's new on the home page because it never mattered before. Holy crap, that is the dumbest thing I've ever seen in my life. It doesn't even list all the products either, I clicked my niche and like 4 products showed up and there's wayyyyyyy more than 4. The vendors must have to pay to be featured there or something unless they just aren't done.

                  I still would be lost without clickbank though so that is where I'm going to start and see where things go.

                  I'm guessing everyone I promote as an affiliate right now is going to back out which means I'm going to have to change my free product up quite a bit since I have a few affiliate links in there.

                  Man, this sucks. I thought everyone was over worried or over exaggerating but wow, this is stupid. That's the dumbest thing they could ever do nobody is EVER going to go to clickbank.com to look for digital products to buy.

                  You guys are right, I need to rethink everything and start out without clickbank even though that's probably a huge set back for me, I don't like that at all if customers leave my page, and search my nich on clickbank, and only featured stuff pops up from vendors that paid to be there, which must be what's going on because when I searched my niche as I would if I were a customer it's missing TONS of products.

                  Seems like a rich get richer and poor get poorer type deal. Wow.

                  I haven't been on this site for soooo long and then I randomly log in and randomly come across this thread, maybe I was meant to see this and it's the worlds way of telling me to go the extra mile and figure this all out without clickbank.

                  Man, this sucks.

                  I don't even know what to do now, instantly lost all of my motivation. This all seemed hard enough to figure out with clickbank, no clue what to do without them.

                  I'm probably going to just start on clickbank anyways so I can start building my site more, and then I'll start figuring out how to do it all without clickbank. I just want to get the ball rolling and with clackbank it's like I don't even have to think about returns, or errors, or taxes, or anything, it just makes life soooo much easier especially when I'm already new and lost in the first place.

                  Man, this is bad news.

                  Hopefully a new, capable company see's this as a great opportunity to steal what clickbank had and become the new clickbank, and then everyone can go there while clickbank turns into nothing.

                  Seriously, who the heck would ever go to clickbank looking for stuff to buy that is literally the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life, I can't even believe it. Their new CEO must be one of the worlds dumbest people it doesn't even make sense.

                  It's like, man, it's so insanely stupid I can't even think of an analogy for it.

                  Isn't there something called jvzoo that's almost the same thing as clickbank? Well, I know there is something called jvzoo, but can anybody use it or is it only for IM type products?

                  What should I do, any advice on what to do without clickbank?
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10413674].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                    Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                    I'm guessing everyone I promote as an affiliate right now is going to back out which means I'm going to have to change my free product up quite a bit since I have a few affiliate links in there.
                    Just change each link if and when that vendor abandons ClickBank. You don't have to make it a big one-time thing.

                    I don't even know what to do now, instantly lost all of my motivation.
                    Keep your motivation. This isn't the end of the world. You're actually in a great place by virtue of the fact that you're just starting to build your business now. Some people have already built their businesses in a way that relies too much on ClickBank, and that puts them in a tough situation.

                    I'll also say that if I lost my motivation every time I found myself being set back or having to change directions, I wouldn't have a growing business and a comfortable lifestyle today. If you're serious about succeeding with your business, something like this will not stop you.

                    This all seemed hard enough to figure out with clickbank, no clue what to do without them.
                    You can always use a different payment processor to accept payments, and a different affiliate network to manage affiliates. There are many online businesses that are doing just fine without using ClickBank.

                    I'm probably going to just start on clickbank anyways so I can start building my site more, and then I'll start figuring out how to do it all without clickbank. I just want to get the ball rolling and with clackbank it's like I don't even have to think about returns, or errors, or taxes, or anything, it just makes life soooo much easier especially when I'm already new and lost in the first place.
                    There's not really anything wrong with that, as long as you understand that your business should be able to survive and thrive without using ClickBank, and you build your business with that in mind. Being overly reliant on any third party is a bad idea, and ClickBank in particular is not a company I would trust with the future of my business.

                    Isn't there something called jvzoo that's almost the same thing as clickbank? Well, I know there is something called jvzoo, but can anybody use it or is it only for IM type products?
                    JVZoo is an affiliate network that's becoming pretty popular. It's not limited to IM products at all. Go have a look at their site and you'll get a better idea of the services they provide.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10413694].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                      Just change each link if and when that vendor abandons ClickBank. You don't have to make it a big one-time thing.



                      Keep your motivation. This isn't the end of the world. You're actually in a great place by virtue of the fact that you're just starting to build your business now. Some people have already built their businesses in a way that relies too much on ClickBank, and that puts them in a tough situation.

                      I'll also say that if I lost my motivation every time I found myself being set back or having to change directions, I wouldn't have a growing business and a comfortable lifestyle today. If you're serious about succeeding with your business, something like this will not stop you.



                      You can always use a different payment processor to accept payments, and a different affiliate network to manage affiliates. There are many online businesses that are doing just fine without using ClickBank.



                      There's not really anything wrong with that, as long as you understand that your business should be able to survive and thrive without using ClickBank, and you build your business with that in mind. Being overly reliant on any third party is a bad idea, and ClickBank in particular is not a company I would trust with the future of my business.



                      JVZoo is an affiliate network that's becoming pretty popular. It's not limited to IM products at all. Go have a look at their site and you'll get a better idea of the services they provide.
                      Thanks. I'll definitely never give up, ever, even if things got to be a million times harder. I've put in wayyy too much time figuring out all this stuff to let something like this stop me but it is upsetting and I don't know.

                      I'm going to have lots of products so I think I'm going to stick to my original plan for now, get this first product done and get it on clickbank, and then just build my site, drive traffic, and build my list, and write my newsletter, and learn how to find affiliates and what not and get a feel for everything, and then just see what happens. Maybe stay with clickbank, maybe switch to something else I'll just see what happens when the time comes because for me I just want to get started.
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10413714].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                    I just searched all the main products I promote as an affiliate and I only saw the clickbank badge on one of them.

                    These are big time vendors too, all of them no doubt multi millionaires, and it looks like only one of them is sticking with clickbank, unless the rest add the badge in the next 15 days, but if they're making so much money and wanted to stay in clickbank you'd think they would already have that done.

                    Man, I might have to change a LOT of stuff wow. I'm glad I haven't started collecting e-mails or writing out my news letter yet.

                    I'm very confused now on if I should just go with clickbank for my first product or try to figure something else out.

                    Man, HORRIBLE news, this is ridiculous.

                    Hmmm, on second thought though, if everyone in my niche pulls out, that leaves me as the only option for affiliates, and I could become an instant millionaire...

                    I might just have to see what happens with all of this.

                    I just had a thought.

                    Couldn't we have our buy button just go to a very simple page that says "click here to continue with your purchase" or something and then have that button be the button with the clickbank link so we would only have to put the badge on that page and not our main sales page?

                    I suppose that is one more step for the customers though and could lose a bunch of sales. Damn. This CEO should have just left things how they were and built a new separate site to test out his foolish ideas.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10413701].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author trevord92
                      Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                      I just searched all the main products I promote as an affiliate and I only saw the clickbank badge on one of them.

                      These are big time vendors too, all of them no doubt multi millionaires, and it looks like only one of them is sticking with clickbank, unless the rest add the badge in the next 15 days, but if they're making so much money and wanted to stay in clickbank you'd think they would already have that done.
                      Big Clickbank vendors have a longer time period to change their links.


                      Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                      Man, I might have to change a LOT of stuff wow. I'm glad I haven't started collecting e-mails or writing out my news letter yet.
                      Put your links in a redirect plugin on your site (Pretty Link Lite, etc). That way when they rot over time you only have to change them once and you don't have to worry about links in things like PDFs breaking over time. So long as you renew your main domain, everything is either working or changeable.

                      Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                      I'm very confused now on if I should just go with clickbank for my first product or try to figure something else out.
                      Do something rather than freezing, deer in headlights mode.

                      You can almost always change things at a later stage but no-one's crystal ball is working perfectly for the Clickbank changes. If I was betting on this, I'd put money on the trust badge deadline being extended (or maybe even not fully enforced if not enough vendors comply, given the lack of emails from Clickbank and the lack of any prominent message when you log in to your Clickbank account).
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10413710].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                        Originally Posted by trevord92 View Post

                        Big Clickbank vendors have a longer time period to change their links.



                        Put your links in a redirect plugin on your site (Pretty Link Lite, etc). That way when they rot over time you only have to change them once and you don't have to worry about links in things like PDFs breaking over time. So long as you renew your main domain, everything is either working or changeable.


                        Do something rather than freezing, deer in headlights mode.

                        You can almost always change things at a later stage but no-one's crystal ball is working perfectly for the Clickbank changes. If I was betting on this, I'd put money on the trust badge deadline being extended (or maybe even not fully enforced if not enough vendors comply, given the lack of emails from Clickbank and the lack of any prominent message when you log in to your Clickbank account).
                        Thanks I'll have to look more into pretty link lite. I'm very new to wordpress, plugins, all this stuff.

                        I've been studying business and marketing and copywriting and all this for 2 or 3 years now.

                        I've been trying out ideas like selling ebooks on amazon and having affiliate links in them and stuff and I've made money but nothing livable. This has always been my main goal but I always thought I was going to have to learn all sorts of web development and coding and stuff.

                        I don't know if I was stuck from fear of success or fear of failure, or just fear of the unknown, but now that I have my first website, and wordpress, and a super cool theme/plugin now everything I've been learning is finally possible for me to set up. I feel a little stupid for taking sooo much time when with wordpress and plugins it's super easy, but I learned a lot in that time that I'm super thankful I know before starting all of this.

                        Anyways though, thanks for the advice, I'll try to figure out that plugin before I really get the ball rolling here.
                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10413722].message }}
                  • Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post


                    Isn't there something called jvzoo that's almost the same thing as clickbank? Well, I know there is something called jvzoo, but can anybody use it or is it only for IM type products?

                    What should I do, any advice on what to do without clickbank?
                    I actually bought a product yesterday which is sold through JVZoo, I liked the sales process. Was going to launch a new product of mine on Clickbank, but now I'm considering launching is it through JVZoo so I can get the feel of it.

                    And if Clickbank continues with this misbehavior all consider migrating all my products from Clickbank to JVZoo.

                    And on top of that, its a quality product, I won't be requesting a refund or file a chargeback. There was no need for JVZoo to force the vendor to have a JVZoo badge on their site, so I can trust the product. I'm happy with it.
                    Signature

                    Website Design | App Creation | Video Marketing | Social Media | Web Hosting

                    ==> SlashTouch.Com

                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10413788].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                      Originally Posted by Makabongwe Maseko View Post

                      I actually bought a product yesterday which is sold through JVZoo, I liked the sales process. Was going to launch a new product of mine on Clickbank, but now I'm considering launching is it through JVZoo so I can get the feel of it.

                      And if Clickbank continues with this misbehavior all consider migrating all my products from Clickbank to JVZoo.

                      And on top of that, its a quality product, I won't be requesting a refund or file a chargeback. There was no need for JVZoo to force the vendor to have a JVZoo badge on their site, so I can trust the product. I'm happy with it.
                      Yea I'll have to keep JVZoo in mind for if I end up not liking clickbank. After re-reading this though, I feel better about diving into clickbank. There's no reason to hate the change when for all I know I could benefit from it, and if it makes things worse, then I'll dislike it, but for now I'm just going to go in it with a smile and see where the road goes.

                      Oh yea, this is what I re-read:

                      The advantages they stated with this new type of setup are they'll be able to do a streamlined near one-click checkout for repeat customers, and MUCH better analytics, sales page ROI, better funnel insights etc. In addition they can provide some insights when past ClickBank customers land on your page. Some REALLY AWESOME stuff from the sound of it. All of these benefits could be achieved with invisible code though, but it sounds like the branded bar is necessary and coming whether we like it or not.

                      I suppose the one biggest advantage is ClickBank remains in business. According to them "credit card companies and payment processors are scrutinizing Internet retailers and the quality of products on their platforms". There may be no way around this for ClickBank and this could just be the future of things to come. With change can come opportunity, so I'm looking forward to see how this all plays out.
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10413819].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                        I've been thinking about this a lot, and the more I think, the more I see it as a good thing. I want to be connected with affiliates and work my way up and eventually get huge vendors in my niche to promote my stuff to their list.

                        Since I'm just starting I probably wouldn't have any huge players in my niche promoting my stuff, but with this new set up, it gives me a chance to be exposed to their customers on their lists.

                        If these guys have customers that are die hard for that niche, and clickbank has this set up, then those customers can find my stuff. It's like now by just using clickbank I'll be able to be found by affiliates, vendors, and customers.

                        It's like, I'll have to have the clickbank badge trying to funnel people back to clickbank, but that's just helping everyone that's a part of it, so it's just basically putting a ton of businesses and customers all together in one HUGE pot of money, and I'm starting to think this could actually be a pretty sweet deal again as long as my stuff is listed in the marketplace that the customers will be searching and not only the one for affiliates. If my stuff will be found in both places, then I'm starting to see this as something that could potentionally make everyone involved a lot of money.

                        I'm actually kind of excited to see how this all plays out, and if it turns out as bad as everyone thinks, then I'll jump ship, but for now I'm going to hop on board and see where this ship goes.
                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10413838].message }}
                        • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
                          Justin good luck with your venture, but I just want to correct what I believe is a misapprehension in your last post.

                          Namely, realistically, the chances that being listed on someone else's site (especially a mall type site) will make you a significant amount of money are pretty remote. Like being struck by lightning remote.

                          First all, with the possible exception of Amazon, few people shop online via a mall. Offline it makes sense to minimize physical distance between shops - online it makes little sense, when ALL shops worldwide are already a click or two away.

                          Secondly, an online mall contains thousands or tens of thousands of products. Why should a customer choose your product (unless they were already looking for it anyway)?

                          Hint: Even Amazon which is the most successful mall-type site, mainly sells products that are popular and well-advertised elsewhere - it's extremely rare for a product to sell a significant amount just from being listed at Amazon.


                          There is a long history of internet malls, dating back since the 90s, and few have made much money (in terms of shifting products to end-users) for the mall operators, or the vendors listed in the mall.

                          In fact, because internet malls don't usually work in terms of generating revenue from end-user product sales, they have often been used as a vehicle for scams. See e.g.
                          No, Really... An Online Shopping Mall Scam.html
                          Why are MLM Internet Malls a Scam | MLM Netwok Marketing Training
                          https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/pres...l-pyramid-scam

                          Of course, I am 100% sure that ClickBank's mall will be 100% legitimate - but I would also honestly be amazed if simply being listed in it generates a significant amount of sales for any vendor.

                          The bottom line is this: If you want your product to sell, then YOU have to market it & drive traffic to it. Nobody else will do that for you.
                          Signature
                          ClickBank Vendor?
                          - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
                          - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
                          - Killer Graphics for Your Site
                          SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10414937].message }}
                          • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                            Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

                            Justin good luck with your venture, but I just want to correct what I believe is a misapprehension in your last post.

                            Namely, realistically, the chances that being listed on someone else's site (especially a mall type site) will make you a significant amount of money are pretty remote. Like being struck by lightning remote.

                            First all, with the possible exception of Amazon, few people shop online via a mall. Offline it makes sense to minimize physical distance between shops - online it makes little sense, when ALL shops worldwide are already a click or two away.

                            Secondly, an online mall contains thousands or tens of thousands of products. Why should a customer choose your product (unless they were already looking for it anyway)?

                            Hint: Even Amazon which is the most successful mall-type site, mainly sells products that are popular and well-advertised elsewhere - it's extremely rare for a product to sell a significant amount just from being listed at Amazon.


                            There is a long history of internet malls, dating back since the 90s, and few have made much money (in terms of shifting products to end-users) for the mall operators, or the vendors listed in the mall.

                            In fact, because internet malls don't usually work in terms of generating revenue from end-user product sales, they have often been used as a vehicle for scams. See e.g.
                            No, Really... An Online Shopping Mall Scam.html
                            Why are MLM Internet Malls a Scam | MLM Netwok Marketing Training
                            https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/pres...l-pyramid-scam

                            Of course, I am 100% sure that ClickBank's mall will be 100% legitimate - but I would also honestly be amazed if simply being listed in it generates a significant amount of sales for any vendor.

                            The bottom line is this: If you want your product to sell, then YOU have to market it & drive traffic to it. Nobody else will do that for you.
                            I already plan on marketing my products and driving traffic to my list and then to my sales page. I'm not hoping and praying this new set up is going to flood my site with traffic. I would rather have clickbank not make these changes but they're going to anyways so ho well. Me saying this could bring me other vendors customers is not me saying that I'm relying on that to happen to get customers at all.

                            Other online malls failing is completely irrelevant because they are not clickbank. Lots of burger joints fail, McDonald's didn't.

                            If my product does get listed in the customers market place though, then that is pretty sweet because any extra sale is an extra sale, that's cool. I know people could also lose more sales from their sales page leaking to clickbank, but they could also gain more from it too. None of us have used it to see yet that's all I'm saying.

                            It could be the worst thing ever, it could barely make a difference, or it could be the best thing ever.

                            What if there's only a handful of products in your niche, or even only just a few pages, and mass amounts of highly targeted traffic starts getting sent to the few products in your niche on clickbank, that would get you sales.

                            I'm not saying it's going to happen, I'm saying it could happen.

                            This could be a bad thing.

                            This could be a good thing.

                            Either way it's going to happen and I'm going to hop on from the start and see what happens with this.
                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10414965].message }}
                            • Profile picture of the author agmccall
                              Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post


                              What if there's only a handful of products in your niche, or even only just a few pages, and mass amounts of highly targeted traffic starts getting sent to the few products in your niche on clickbank, that would get you sales.
                              This is not going to happen. Clickbank does not have the customer base you think they have. These customers go to individual sites and not clickbank. There are no potential customers that are sitting at their computer saying "I have a pimple on my a$$ I think I will head over to clickbank to see what they have to offer."

                              They go to google or whatever search engine they use and do a search.and then find either the vendors site or review sites then they are sent to clickbanks order form to complete the sale.

                              If you think that listing a product on clickbank will be like selling on amazon and you will get all that clickbank traffic you are somewhat naive.

                              Clickbank will never be the destination they pretend to be. And, as affiliates and vendors realize this and move on to other platforms, the ones that are left will be wondering what happened to their business.

                              Affiliates, who happen to be the life blood of clickbank, will be the first to go. Or, they will start direct linking to the order page and bypass the sales page altogether.

                              al
                              Signature

                              "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415014].message }}
                              • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                                Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

                                This is not going to happen. Clickbank does not have the customer base you think they have. These customers go to individual sites and not clickbank. There are no potential customers that are sitting at their computer saying "I have a pimple on my a$$ I think I will head over to clickbank to see what they have to offer."

                                They go to google or whatever search engine they use and do a search.and then find either the vendors site or review sites then they are sent to clickbanks order form to complete the sale.

                                If you think that listing a product on clickbank will be like selling on amazon and you will get all that clickbank traffic you are somewhat naive.

                                Clickbank will never be the destination they pretend to be. And, as affiliates and vendors realize this and move on to other platforms, the ones that are left will be wondering what happened to their business.

                                Affiliates, who happen to be the life blood of clickbank, will be the first to go. Or, they will start direct linking to the order page and bypass the sales page altogether.

                                al
                                Nobody went to Walmart before it was built. You're talking about what Clickbank always has been, I'm talking about what they're trying to turn it into.

                                Using the logic that they aren't magically where they want to be over night so they'll never get there is what's naive.

                                It's VERY obvious that customers don't go to clickbank to see what they have to offer because clickbank has NEVER been a site set up for people to do that. It doesn't even sound like they're trying to turn into some huge crazy online shopping center, it seems more like it's going to be a place for people who already buy clickbank products anyways.

                                How is anything you even just said to me relevant to anything I said?

                                Clcikbank doesn't have the customer base I think they have? And what customer base do I think they have exactly? I don't think they have a customer base at all, but they're going to.

                                Whether that helps me out or not, nobody knows that right now so I don't know what your point is.
                                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415092].message }}
                                • Profile picture of the author agmccall
                                  Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post


                                  Clcikbank doesn't have the customer base I think they have? And what customer base do I think they have exactly? I don't think they have a customer base at all, but they're going to.
                                  You have made up your mind, so good luck to you.

                                  al
                                  Signature

                                  "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

                                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415121].message }}
                                • Profile picture of the author trevord92
                                  Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                                  Nobody went to Walmart before it was built. You're talking about what Clickbank always has been, I'm talking about what they're trying to turn it into.
                                  Trying is the operative word.

                                  It's expensive to create an online presence nowadays - witness how few competitors there are to Amazon in quite a lot of the markets they compete in.

                                  Clickbank don't email their "customers" (people who've bought a product from a vendor's site, got it delivered by the vendor but paid their credit card to Clickbank) after the initial purchase so their customer list would be cold and likely marked as spam.

                                  Traffic to their site is - at a guess - mainly from internet marketing sources as a place to list a product. They didn't have a retail customer facing marketplace until recently, their current pages aren't really SEO'd properly. That's an uphill struggle and would take a lot of time and money with no guarantee they'll get shown in the search results unless they pay per click and the margin on $1 plus a small percentage on the sale doesn't make that likely.
                                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415281].message }}
                                  • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                                    Originally Posted by trevord92 View Post

                                    Trying is the operative word.

                                    It's expensive to create an online presence nowadays - witness how few competitors there are to Amazon in quite a lot of the markets they compete in.

                                    Clickbank don't email their "customers" (people who've bought a product from a vendor's site, got it delivered by the vendor but paid their credit card to Clickbank) after the initial purchase so their customer list would be cold and likely marked as spam.

                                    Traffic to their site is - at a guess - mainly from internet marketing sources as a place to list a product. They didn't have a retail customer facing marketplace until recently, their current pages aren't really SEO'd properly. That's an uphill struggle and would take a lot of time and money with no guarantee they'll get shown in the search results unless they pay per click and the margin on $1 plus a small percentage on the sale doesn't make that likely.
                                    Yea this is what I'm saying, that badge thing is not a big deal because first off them trying to do what they're doing probably won't work, which means who cares about the badge it's not going to be taking traffic anyways. Second, if it does work, then who cares because then we'll be listed in a market place that people go to to shop.

                                    You guys are acting like I'm depending on their new market for customers to be a success when I'm not and I gave no reason for you to think that.

                                    All I'm saying is I see this badge as not a big deal at all because if it works then we'll see if it's good or bad for us, and if their new little market doesn't work then who cares we won't be affected by it anyways then.

                                    A cool little clickbank badge on my site is a small price to pay for how much easier they're going to make things for me using their services than trying to figure out something else.

                                    If this turns into a thing where only the people at the top thrive, then I'll just have to climb to the top I don't care.

                                    I don't care if their mall works out or not it's irrelevant to me because I don't know how it will affect me, so I have no reason to be against it, and I don't see any other place more tailored to me than clickbank.
                                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415417].message }}
                                    • Profile picture of the author trevord92
                                      Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                                      Yea this is what I'm saying, that badge thing is not a big deal because first off them trying to do what they're doing probably won't work, which means who cares about the badge it's not going to be taking traffic anyways. Second, if it does work, then who cares because then we'll be listed in a market place that people go to to shop.

                                      You guys are acting like I'm depending on their new market for customers to be a success when I'm not and I gave no reason for you to think that.

                                      All I'm saying is I see this badge as not a big deal at all because if it works then we'll see if it's good or bad for us, and if their new little market doesn't work then who cares we won't be affected by it anyways then.
                                      Apologies if I mis-interpreted your reliance or otherwise on the new marketplace.

                                      The trust badge is like every change to a sales page: until it's tested, you won't know whether it's good, bad or neutral.

                                      The snag is that unlike almost every other aspect of your sales page, it's outside your control.

                                      Sure, you can change colour and position to an extent.

                                      But what if you wanted to split test two colours or two positions (it's pretty much standard practice for marketers to test that kind of thing) - you can't, short of creating a new Clickbank account and paying for them to list your product.

                                      And what if their Javascript gets changed to display something different?

                                      Or their site goes offline, causing your sales page to load slowly or hang while it waits for the code to be sent back.

                                      Plenty of other methods out there. If you don't need affiliates then PayPal is one option that's super easy to set up and doesn't require any external site to load if you don't want it to until the customer clicks the "buy" button.
                                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415443].message }}
                                      • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                                        Originally Posted by trevord92 View Post

                                        Apologies if I mis-interpreted your reliance or otherwise on the new marketplace.

                                        The trust badge is like every change to a sales page: until it's tested, you won't know whether it's good, bad or neutral.

                                        The snag is that unlike almost every other aspect of your sales page, it's outside your control.

                                        Sure, you can change colour and position to an extent.

                                        But what if you wanted to split test two colours or two positions (it's pretty much standard practice for marketers to test that kind of thing) - you can't, short of creating a new Clickbank account and paying for them to list your product.

                                        And what if their Javascript gets changed to display something different?

                                        Or their site goes offline, causing your sales page to load slowly or hang while it waits for the code to be sent back.

                                        Plenty of other methods out there. If you don't need affiliates then PayPal is one option that's super easy to set up and doesn't require any external site to load if you don't want it to until the customer clicks the "buy" button.
                                        I fully understand it could be a bad thing, but clcikbank is super helpful to someone new so I can at least get some practice in. I don't want to have to keep track of everything, and deal with returns and customers and keep track of stuff for taxes, and what not that would set me sooo far back if I had to start thinking about all that. Clickbank takes all that away, they make things simple for me, and I'll gladly have their badge on my site to be able to use their services.

                                        Once things are going, if I see things will be better for me somewhere else, then I'll switch, but for now clickbank is the best thing for me.
                                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415467].message }}
                                        • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                                          Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                                          Yea I'll have to keep JVZoo in mind for if I end up not liking clickbank. After re-reading this though, I feel better about diving into clickbank. There's no reason to hate the change when for all I know I could benefit from it, and if it makes things worse, then I'll dislike it, but for now I'm just going to go in it with a smile and see where the road goes.
                                          In my view, it isn't a coin toss as to whether ClickBank's change in direction will have good or bad results. There are many obvious downsides, as enumerated throughout this thread, and the potential upside lies in the idea of ClickBank becoming a successful retail destination for consumers, which I find unlikely.

                                          That being said, if you still feel that you must use ClickBank, then you should do so. Just understand the nature of the beast and don't ever be dependent on them.

                                          Oh yea, this is what I re-read:

                                          The advantages they stated with this new type of setup are they'll be able to do a streamlined near one-click checkout for repeat customers,
                                          Based on my experience with ClickBank throughout the years, I find it very doubtful that this will end up being a big benefit. I just don't see consumers flocking to use a ClickBank account in the same way they use an Amazon account, for this type of easy checkout across multiple purchases/shopping sessions.

                                          and MUCH better analytics, sales page ROI, better funnel insights etc.
                                          You can get great analytics using the standard tools like Google Analytics, split testing services, etc. I don't see a benefit here that outweighs the negatives.

                                          In addition they can provide some insights when past ClickBank customers land on your page.
                                          Unless you're in the MMO niche or ClickBank is seizing and redistributing tons of traffic, this should be extremely rare.

                                          Some REALLY AWESOME stuff from the sound of it. All of these benefits could be achieved with invisible code though, but it sounds like the branded bar is necessary and coming whether we like it or not.
                                          I haven't seen any evidence that it really is necessary. Many people including myself don't buy their claims about the card companies making them do all of this.

                                          I will add that their initial rollout of this whole scheme, which included a bunch of stuff they've had to drop due to the backlash they've received, also sounded like it was coming whether we liked it or not. But we didn't resign ourselves to letting them do it, and ultimately they haven't been able to, at least not yet.

                                          I suppose the one biggest advantage is ClickBank remains in business. According to them "credit card companies and payment processors are scrutinizing Internet retailers and the quality of products on their platforms". There may be no way around this for ClickBank and this could just be the future of things to come.
                                          ClickBank's claim that this was the impetus behind their recent behavior has been analyzed in this thread (I can point you to the specific posts if you like) and it's just not credible in my view.

                                          With change can come opportunity
                                          I agree, but you also have to be realistic about situations like this. There are a lot of downsides here for the vendors and affiliates who use their services, and the potential upside is a bit "pie in the sky." So if you decide to go ahead with using ClickBank, just take precautions so you'll be ready if and when you have to change directions in the future.

                                          I've been thinking about this a lot, and the more I think, the more I see it as a good thing. I want to be connected with affiliates and work my way up and eventually get huge vendors in my niche to promote my stuff to their list.

                                          Since I'm just starting I probably wouldn't have any huge players in my niche promoting my stuff, but with this new set up, it gives me a chance to be exposed to their customers on their lists.

                                          If these guys have customers that are die hard for that niche, and clickbank has this set up, then those customers can find my stuff. It's like now by just using clickbank I'll be able to be found by affiliates, vendors, and customers.

                                          It's like, I'll have to have the clickbank badge trying to funnel people back to clickbank, but that's just helping everyone that's a part of it, so it's just basically putting a ton of businesses and customers all together in one HUGE pot of money, and I'm starting to think this could actually be a pretty sweet deal again as long as my stuff is listed in the marketplace that the customers will be searching and not only the one for affiliates. If my stuff will be found in both places, then I'm starting to see this as something that could potentionally make everyone involved a lot of money.
                                          Anything is possible, but there are a ton of problems here. For example:

                                          - Once ClickBank starts taking a chunk of everyone's traffic and distributing it as they see fit, you have no control over what happens next. They could put the big vendors at the top of the marketplace, resulting in the bulk of the traffic going to those vendors. They could make vendors pay for preferential rankings. They could produce their own products (the way they produced "ClickBank University") and begin selling them in the marketplace. They could even send traffic away to other sites through banners or sidebar ads.

                                          - ClickBank would need to have a really nice marketplace for buyers to actually adopt using it to find additional products from different vendors. Right now it totally sucks, and it's not like they haven't had the time or resources to get it right. This is actually their idea of how it should be.

                                          I'm actually kind of excited to see how this all plays out, and if it turns out as bad as everyone thinks, then I'll jump ship, but for now I'm going to hop on board and see where this ship goes.
                                          As I've mentioned, I won't say you shouldn't put your product on ClickBank if you feel that you must.

                                          I'll only say that I think because you're new to this there is a tendency to focus on the potential upside, which is understandable. But there's a reason so many of us who have used ClickBank for years are dismayed by what they're doing.

                                          What if there's only a handful of products in your niche, or even only just a few pages, and mass amounts of highly targeted traffic starts getting sent to the few products in your niche on clickbank, that would get you sales.
                                          The problem with this line of thinking is that ClickBank doesn't have traffic to give. Either the traffic will only be coming from the other sites in your niche (with yours going to them also), or it will be coming from unrelated sites, which is likely to result in extremely low conversions for your offer.

                                          It's VERY obvious that customers don't go to clickbank to see what they have to offer because clickbank has NEVER been a site set up for people to do that. It doesn't even sound like they're trying to turn into some huge crazy online shopping center, it seems more like it's going to be a place for people who already buy clickbank products anyways.
                                          They want to be "a global retailer with 200,000,000 customers" as they're now saying on their website and social media (of course, those customers they're claiming to have are the people who buy your product on your website.) This isn't simply about upselling to people who already buy ClickBank products. They really want to be some kind of Amazon for digital products, minus Amazon's ability to execute on a cutting edge marketplace.

                                          And wrap your head around this - their plan to do this was to take over all of our websites, put their own header and brand at the top, steal our traffic with a link to their own "marketplace," and redirect each of our websites to a page on ClickBank!

                                          It was only when they unexpectedly discovered that nobody would let them do these things that they backed off (partially, and for now).

                                          It's insane, and to whatever extent you use this company's services, anyone who makes their business reliant on ClickBank after all of this is being very foolish in my view. It sounds like you're just going to see what happens and get what you can in the meantime, so hopefully this won't apply to you.

                                          Yea this is what I'm saying, that badge thing is not a big deal because first off them trying to do what they're doing probably won't work, which means who cares about the badge it's not going to be taking traffic anyways.
                                          In this scenario, it would still be taking traffic until they've finished with their attempt to make it work for them and ultimately acknowledged that it failed. Considering that this is the pet project of newly placed executives, they're not likely to acknowledge that very quickly.

                                          Second, if it does work, then who cares because then we'll be listed in a market place that people go to to shop.
                                          There are many downsides connected to this, some of which I've mentioned.

                                          You guys are acting like I'm depending on their new market for customers to be a success when I'm not and I gave no reason for you to think that.
                                          I don't think anybody is trying to give you a hard time. The last thing you want to see as an experienced IM'er is a newcomer being overly optimistic about something. That tends to result in frustration and disappointment, and we see it here on the forum all the time. We're just trying to give you the best information we can about what has happened and where this is likely to be headed. It's up to you how to use that information in your business.

                                          All I'm saying is I see this badge as not a big deal at all because if it works then we'll see if it's good or bad for us, and if their new little market doesn't work then who cares we won't be affected by it anyways then.
                                          We'll be affected by it regardless. There will be a period in which ClickBank is trying to implement these things and see if they benefit from them or not. Substantial changes will be happening, and it will be a bumpy ride.

                                          Since you're just starting out and don't have much invested in the outcome, this may be less of a concern. But the fundamental shift ClickBank is attempting to make (spearheaded by the "badge") is a risky proposition full of potential downsides for the people who use their services, and it's being carried out by a company that has already lost a lot of people's trust after their initial rollout of this whole scheme.

                                          If this turns into a thing where only the people at the top thrive, then I'll just have to climb to the top I don't care.
                                          Situations where only the people at the top thrive tend to benefit the people who are already at the top. I do think you have the right attitude in general, though, as it relates to business in the broader sense.

                                          I fully understand it could be a bad thing, but clcikbank is super helpful to someone new so I can at least get some practice in. I don't want to have to keep track of everything, and deal with returns and customers and keep track of stuff for taxes, and what not that would set me sooo far back if I had to start thinking about all that.
                                          Returns are very easy. Any service you use for payment processing will make it easy to refund someone's money.

                                          You'll still be dealing with customers when you use ClickBank.

                                          With regard to taxes, when you're accepting payments online for a digital product, it's not difficult to keep track of things regardless of what payment processor you use.

                                          Again, I'm not telling you not to use ClickBank if you feel that it would benefit you in the short term. That's your decision, and it seems like you've made it. I just want to help you have an accurate understanding of these issues.

                                          A cool little clickbank badge on my site is a small price to pay ... I'll gladly have their badge on my site to be able to use their services.

                                          Once things are going, if I see things will be better for me somewhere else, then I'll switch, but for now clickbank is the best thing for me.
                                          Looking at the larger issue, it's not just about "having their badge on your site." If the community accepts that being forced on us, ClickBank now has a foot in the door to continue with more encroachments. We know from their initial rollout of this whole scheme that it's not about a badge.

                                          That being said, I think that as a business owner, you should do what's best for your business. If using ClickBank for the moment is beneficial, then go ahead and use them. Just be aware of how they operate and don't get too comfortable.
                                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415996].message }}
                                          • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                                            Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                                            In my view, it isn't a coin toss as to whether ClickBank's change in direction will have good or bad results. There are many obvious downsides, as enumerated throughout this thread, and the potential upside lies in the idea of ClickBank becoming a successful retail destination for consumers, which I find unlikely.

                                            That being said, if you still feel that you must use ClickBank, then you should do so. Just understand the nature of the beast and don't ever be dependent on them.



                                            Based on my experience with ClickBank throughout the years, I find it very doubtful that this will end up being a big benefit. I just don't see consumers flocking to use a ClickBank account in the same way they use an Amazon account, for this type of easy checkout across multiple purchases/shopping sessions.



                                            You can get great analytics using the standard tools like Google Analytics, split testing services, etc. I don't see a benefit here that outweighs the negatives.



                                            Unless you're in the MMO niche or ClickBank is seizing and redistributing tons of traffic, this should be extremely rare.



                                            I haven't seen any evidence that it really is necessary. Many people including myself don't buy their claims about the card companies making them do all of this.

                                            I will add that their initial rollout of this whole scheme, which included a bunch of stuff they've had to drop due to the backlash they've received, also sounded like it was coming whether we liked it or not. But we didn't resign ourselves to letting them do it, and ultimately they haven't been able to, not yet at least.



                                            ClickBank's claim that this was the impetus behind their recent behavior has been analyzed in this thread (I can point you towards the specific posts if you like) and it's just not credible in my view.



                                            I agree, but you also have to be realistic about situations like this. There are a lot of downsides here for the vendors and affiliates who use their services, and the potential upside is a bit "pie in the sky." So if you decide to go ahead with using ClickBank, just take precautions so you'll be ready if and when you have to change directions in the future.



                                            Anything is possible, but there are a ton of problems here. For example:

                                            - Once ClickBank starts taking a chunk of everyone's traffic and distributing it as they see fit, you have no control over what happens next. They could put the big vendors at the top of the marketplace, resulting in the bulk of the traffic going to those vendors. They could make vendors pay for preferential rankings. They could produce their own products (the way they produced "ClickBank University") and begin selling them in the marketplace. They could even send traffic away to other sites through banners or sidebar ads.

                                            - ClickBank would need to have a really nice marketplace for buyers to actually adopt using it to find additional products from different vendors. Right now it totally sucks, and it's not like they haven't had the time or resources to get it right. This is actually their idea of how it should be.



                                            As I've mentioned, I won't say you shouldn't put your product on ClickBank if you feel that you must.

                                            I'll only say that I think because you're new to this there is a tendency to focus on the potential upside, which is understandable. But there's a reason so many of us who have used ClickBank for years are dismayed by what they're doing.



                                            The problem with this line of thinking is that ClickBank doesn't have traffic to give. Either the traffic will only be coming from the other sites in your niche (with yours going to them also), or it will be coming from unrelated sites, which is likely to result in extremely low conversions for your offer.



                                            They want to be "a global retailer with 200,000,000 customers" as they're now saying on their website and social media (of course, those customers they're claiming to have are the people who buy your product on your website.) This isn't simply about upselling to people who already buy ClickBank products. They really want to be some kind of Amazon for digital products, minus Amazon's ability to execute on a cutting edge marketplace.

                                            And wrap your head around this - their plan to do this was to take over all of our websites, put their own header and brand at the top, steal our traffic with a link to their own "marketplace," and redirect each of our websites to a page on ClickBank!

                                            It was only when they unexpectedly discovered that nobody would let them do these things that they backed off (partially, and for now).

                                            It's insane, and to whatever extent you use this company's services, anyone who makes their business reliant on ClickBank after all of this is being very foolish in my view. It sounds like you're just going to see how things go and get what you can in the meantime, so I'm not saying this applies to you.



                                            In this scenario, it would still be taking traffic until they've finished with their attempt to make it work and ultimately acknowledged that it failed. Considering that this is the pet project of newly placed executives, they're not likely to acknowledge that very quickly.



                                            There are many downsides connected to this, some of which I've mentioned.



                                            I don't think anybody is trying to give you a hard time. The last thing you want to see as an experienced IM'er is a newcomer being overly optimistic about something. That can only lead to frustration and disappointment, and we see it all the time here on the forum. We're just trying to give you the best information we can about what has happened and where this is likely to be headed. It's up to you how to use that information in your business.



                                            We'll be affected by it regardless. There will be a period in which ClickBank is trying to implement these things and see if they work or not. Substantial changes will be happening, and it will be a bumpy ride.

                                            Since you're just starting out and don't have much invested in the outcome, this may be less of a concern. But the fundamental shift ClickBank is attempting to make (spearheaded by the "badge") is a risky proposition full of potential downsides, and it's being carried out by a company that has already lost a lot of people's trust after their initial rollout of this whole scheme.



                                            Situations where only the people at the top thrive tend to benefit the people who are already at the top. I do think you have the right attitude in general, though, as it relates to business in the broader sense.



                                            Returns are very easy. Any service you use for payment processing will make it easy to refund someone's money.

                                            You'll still be dealing with customers when you use ClickBank.

                                            With regard to taxes, when you're accepting payments online for a digital product, it's not difficult to keep track of things regardless of what payment processor you use.

                                            Again, I'm not telling you not to use ClickBank if you feel that it would benefit you in the short term. That's your decision, and it seems like you've made it. I just want to help you have an accurate understanding of these issues.



                                            Looking at the larger issue, it's not just about "having their badge on your site." If the community accepts that being forced on us, ClickBank now has a foot in the door to continue with more encroachments. We know from their initial rollout of this whole scheme that it's not about a badge.

                                            That being said, I think that as a business owner, you should do what's best for your business. If using ClickBank for the moment is beneficial, then go ahead and use them. Just be aware of how they operate and don't get too comfortable.
                                            Hey, I truly appreciate what you and others are saying. I understand, but for me right now the goal is to just finish my first paid product and then figure out my news letter and grow my site, and grow my list. I just want something up for sale as easy as possible, and to start learning more about JV's and collecting affiliates.

                                            If I already had everything set up I would probably be more upset, but for now, anything that works is good for me, and I'm sure taxes and returns and what not aren't so hard that I can't figure it out, but right now that's not really where I want to put my time.

                                            I want to get this show on the road so Clickbank is very appealing to me, and it's not like I need a contract or anything I can jump ship any time.

                                            I do see all the negatives though and I'm not trying to take away from any of that. I'm not trying to make people forget about the bad side, just trying to say it could be a good thing, and even if it's not, I think Clickbank will at least be a good place for a noob vendor to start.
                                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10416045].message }}
                                            • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                                              Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                                              Hey, I truly appreciate what you and others are saying. I understand, but for me right now the goal is to just finish my first paid product and then figure out my news letter and grow my site, and grow my list. I just want something up for sale as easy as possible, and to start learning more about JV's and collecting affiliates.

                                              If I already had everything set up I would probably be more upset, but for now, anything that works is good for me, and I'm sure taxes and returns and what not aren't so hard that I can't figure it out, but right now that's not really where I want to put my time.

                                              I want to get this show on the road so Clickbank is very appealing to me, and it's not like I need a contract or anything I can jump ship any time.

                                              I do see all the negatives though and I'm not trying to take away from any of that. I'm not trying to make people forget about the bad side, just trying to say it could be a good thing, and even if it's not, I think Clickbank will at least be a good place for a noob vendor to start.
                                              You're certainly as entitled to your views as the rest of us, and I'm sure that whatever happens with ClickBank, your business will be fine as long as you minimize your reliance on them.
                                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10416069].message }}
                                              • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
                                                A really big issue in my mind is that by re-focusing on a customer facing marketplace ClickBank is undertaking a very radical change in their business model.

                                                They are changing from effectively being a "drop-shipper" (almost) to being a true retailer. A business model where they have NO (zero) experience.

                                                While from a legal standpoint they have always been a "retailer", ClickBank has never sold a single product.

                                                __________________________________________

                                                The first issue they face as a free-standing marketplace, is how to attract traffic to that marketplace.
                                                Their only source of traffic to the offers in the past has been traffic generated by
                                                1. the vendors who list their products on ClickBank, and
                                                2. ClickBank's affiliate sales force
                                                .

                                                Think about that... Historically, the most prevalent reason for a vendor to list their product with ClickBank has been because they were perceived by many as the easiest way for a new vendor to attract affiliates, but... to be of any significant value to ClickBank in terms of revenue, their new marketplace will have to generate its own traffic, independent of (and in direct competition with) their own affiliates.

                                                Vendors and affiliates both try to maximize their advertising channels, but we don't compete with ourselves. Vendors appreciate the marketing efforts of their affiliates and try very hard not to compete with those affiliates.

                                                Any efforts by ClickBank to generate traffic independent of their affiliates will be in direct competition against those affiliates efforts, and will cause more and more of their affiliates to jump ship.

                                                __________________________________________

                                                Not a problem (for ClickBank nor the vendors) IF they can, indeed, generate their own traffic, without the aid of those affiliates.

                                                But... I don't see anything in their new marketplace to attract free traffic (a thumbnail image with a buy button isn't going to cut it). There are no product descriptions, product testimonials, or customer ratings. No CONTENT.

                                                [note] ClickBank's original "header" concept was designed to give them not only all that content, but a massive number of backlinks from that content to their own site. Given that they have had to abandon that plan, how will they recover those benefits to their marketplace in the future?

                                                And...ClickBank certainly isn't going to buy that traffic without passing those costs on to the vendors in some manner.

                                                In other words, the implementation of their marketplace is far from adequate to replace the traffic that they (and their vendors) will lose due to the loss of affiliate traffic.

                                                __________________________________________

                                                So who wins? No one.

                                                Should you wait to see how it plays out? Your call, but I wouldn't.
                                                Signature

                                                Sid Hale
                                                Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

                                                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10416809].message }}
                                                • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                                                  Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

                                                  A really big issue in my mind is that by re-focusing on a customer facing marketplace ClickBank is undertaking a very radical change in their business model.

                                                  They are changing from effectively being a "drop-shipper" (almost) to being a true retailer. A business model where they have NO (zero) experience.

                                                  While from a legal standpoint they have always been a "retailer", ClickBank has never sold a single product.

                                                  __________________________________________

                                                  The first issue they face as a free-standing marketplace, is how to attract traffic to that marketplace.
                                                  Their only source of traffic to the offers in the past has been traffic generated by
                                                  1. the vendors who list their products on ClickBank, and
                                                  2. ClickBank's affiliate sales force
                                                  .

                                                  Think about that... Historically, the most prevalent reason for a vendor to list their product with ClickBank has been because they were perceived by many as the easiest way for a new vendor to attract affiliates, but... to be of any significant value to ClickBank in terms of revenue, their new marketplace will have to generate its own traffic, independent of (and in direct competition with) their own affiliates.

                                                  Vendors and affiliates both try to maximize their advertising channels, but we don't compete with ourselves. Vendors appreciate the marketing efforts of their affiliates and try very hard not to compete with those affiliates.

                                                  Any efforts by ClickBank to generate traffic independent of their affiliates will be in direct competition against those affiliates efforts, and will cause more and more of their affiliates to jump ship.

                                                  __________________________________________

                                                  Not a problem (for ClickBank nor the vendors) IF they can, indeed, generate their own traffic, without the aid of those affiliates.

                                                  But... I don't see anything in their new marketplace to attract free traffic (a thumbnail image with a buy button isn't going to cut it). There are no product descriptions, product testimonials, or customer ratings. No CONTENT.

                                                  [note] ClickBank's original "header" concept was designed to give them not only all that content, but a massive number of backlinks from that content to their own site. Given that they have had to abandon that plan, how will they recover those benefits to their marketplace in the future?

                                                  And...ClickBank certainly isn't going to buy that traffic without passing those costs on to the vendors in some manner.

                                                  In other words, the implementation of their marketplace is far from adequate to replace the traffic that they (and their vendors) will lose due to the loss of affiliate traffic.

                                                  __________________________________________

                                                  So who wins? No one.

                                                  Should you wait to see how it plays out? Your call, but I wouldn't.
                                                  I just can't see this being a problem for affiliates. If I was driving traffic to like a stop diabetes offer or some new diet or something, I seriously can not imagine one single person clicking on the clickbank badge, leaving the page, and then buying something else on clickbank instead.

                                                  I just don't see that happening.

                                                  If it does happen, then all the affiliates will jump ship and so will I and they'll be forced to go back to how they were and hope people come back, or they will just straight up be out of business and the new CEO will be out however much money he just spent to buy Clickbank which I'm sure was an insane amount of money.

                                                  Something like this happened with amazon too when they changed their kindle payout to pages read. All these people writing 3 page pornos basically scamming the system freaked out and left, but everyone else that was using it legitimately in the first place is making even MORE money than they were before.

                                                  I don't understand why I keep hearing that Clickbank's new market won't work, and then I hear Clickbank's new market is going to take away all of the affiliates traffic and money.

                                                  If it takes away from the affiliates, then that must mean their new idea is going to work.

                                                  I for one, think it will not work. I don't think anybody is going to experience any noticeable difference besides a badge on their site.

                                                  All that bade does in my eyes is make people feel safer buying from someone they've never heard of on some little home made website, that badge let's people know, "Hey, this is legit, your payment is being processed by a huge company A+ with the BBB, completely safe and secure."

                                                  You can't have your cake and eat it too.

                                                  Is this marketplace going to fail and it won't really make any noticeable difference, or is this marketplace going to succeed and affiliates will lose all their traffic and money?

                                                  I would assume clickbank would already know if they took all the affiliates traffic and money they would all leave, which means all of the vendors would leave, which means they wouldn't make any money. I don't think they are trying to go out of business, and I trust in the end everything will be good, or they'll see it's not working out and go back to normal.

                                                  For all we know once it's all set up the affiliate will still be credited for any sales if the customer leaves the original offer through the badge.

                                                  If you send someone to an offer sold on Amazon as an affiliate, and they don't buy it, you still get paid for anything they buy on Amazon if they start looking at other stuff, so it's definitely possible for them to do.

                                                  And yes I know Clickbank is not about to turn into Amazon. I don't think they're going to turn into anything personally I can't see anybody at all ever leaving someone's page and browsing clickbank and buying something there. I don't see that happening even one single time. I'm sure here and there people may click the badge and get curious, but they would instantly leave clickbank they wouldn't even browse it. I log into clickbank every day and I never even noticed it was a spot to shop until someone pointed it out to me.

                                                  If clickbank screws their affiliates, then they're going to lose their whole entire business literally over night, so if they are that stupid then oh well, but I don't think everything is going to be as dooms day as everyone is making it seem.
                                                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10418340].message }}
                                                  • Profile picture of the author rjd1265
                                                    Update:
                                                    The badge is the same color scheme as my website, lower right corner

                                                    Results were SHOCKING!.......

                                                    No change at all. None. Same earnings per hop, same hops per order.....

                                                    And if you click on the badge, all it says is that Clickbank is a trusted retailer for my site and they have an A+ BBB rating
                                                    Signature
                                                    You Are A Snowflake
                                                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10418375].message }}
                                                    • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                                                      Originally Posted by rjd1265 View Post

                                                      Update:
                                                      The badge is the same color scheme as my website, lower right corner

                                                      Results were SHOCKING!.......

                                                      No change at all. None. Same earnings per hop, same hops per order.....

                                                      And if you click on the badge, all it says is that Clickbank is a trusted retailer for my site and they have an A+ BBB rating
                                                      I couldn't imagine that little badge making any difference whatsoever, so that's not shocking to me. People are saying though that they will add stuff to the badge, like a link going back to clickbank, but I just can't imagine that making any difference either.

                                                      Everybody is very quick to assume clickbank wants to steal the affiliates traffic, but what if Clickbanks true plan is to become an affiliate for every product on clickbank and then drive traffic to their site, so anything someone buys through that traffic clickbank gets a huge commission. Then they would have motivation to drive their own traffic.

                                                      I just think there's no reason to jump to crazy conclusions quite yet, but I am glad that people are upset and speaking out because they are making a difference.

                                                      If clickbank kept the header I would most likely take the extra time to learn this stuff on my own, but that badge, I can live with it. It looks good, and again, I just can't see that thing taking any traffic at all, and especially nothing noticeable. Maybe one random click out of like a million visitors.
                                                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10418406].message }}
                                                      • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
                                                        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post


                                                        I still would be lost without clickbank though so that is where I'm going to start and see where things go.



                                                        I don't even know what to do now, instantly lost all of my motivation. This all seemed hard enough to figure out with clickbank, no clue what to do without them.

                                                        I'm probably going to just start on clickbank anyways so I can start building my site more, and then I'll start figuring out how to do it all without clickbank.

                                                        Hopefully a new, capable company see's this as a great opportunity to steal what clickbank had and become the new clickbank, and then everyone can go there while clickbank turns into nothing.



                                                        Isn't there something called jvzoo that's almost the same thing as clickbank? Well, I know there is something called jvzoo, but can anybody use it or is it only for IM type products?

                                                        What should I do, any advice on what to do without clickbank?
                                                        There are a ton of other places to use. Just start your list.

                                                        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                                                        Hey, I truly appreciate what you and others are saying. I understand, but for me right now the goal is to just finish my first paid product and then figure out my news letter and grow my site, and grow my list. I just want something up for sale as easy as possible, and to start learning more about JV's and collecting affiliates.
                                                        No reason you can't get your news letter going first - that I can tell???
                                                        Most people get the list going FIRST, so they can then get information from that list of what they want, then make the product to fill a need. But maybe you have something completely different going on.

                                                        Originally Posted by rjd1265 View Post

                                                        Update:
                                                        The badge is the same color scheme as my website, lower right corner

                                                        Results were SHOCKING!.......

                                                        No change at all. None. Same earnings per hop, same hops per order.....

                                                        And if you click on the badge, all it says is that Clickbank is a trusted retailer for my site and they have an A+ BBB rating
                                                        Well, it is just one test and it's early in the game. As you've stated, the color scheme is the same, which could make all the difference in the world.

                                                        Thanks for sharing your personal test results. It may be necessary for others in helping them determine if a jump is really necessary.
                                                        Signature

                                                        "May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"

                                                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10418486].message }}
                                                        • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                                                          Originally Posted by Jill Carpenter View Post

                                                          There are a ton of other places to use. Just start your list.



                                                          No reason you can't get your news letter going first - that I can tell???
                                                          Most people get the list going FIRST, so they can then get information from that list of what they want, then make the product to fill a need. But maybe you have something completely different going on.



                                                          Well, it is just one test and it's early in the game. As you've stated, the color scheme is the same, which could make all the difference in the world.

                                                          Thanks for sharing your personal test results. It may be necessary for others in helping them determine if a jump is really necessary.
                                                          Yea I've been working on my list all day. I wanted to have a product ready right off the bat, but it's just going to take too long to finish and I want to get the ball rolling, so now I'm putting most of my focus on my site and writing out my auto responder.

                                                          I already have a free offer set up and stuff and I just noticed today that someone subscribed and unsubscribed and I never log into aweber so I'm guessing that person signed up and unsubscribed when they saw I wasn't sending anything after that.

                                                          I wasn't expecting people to already be finding my stuff though, but I just finished my first e-mail in Aweber and it looks super nice and matches my site well and I made a logo for the top of each -mail that looks really good, and this is sooooo awesome I'm about to be addicted to e-mail marketing this is fun.

                                                          I can't wait until I'm all set up with my first product done and everything but oh well I guess I'll just have to offer affiliate products before my own, but I really wanted to sell people something of my own before sending them somewhere else. I probably won't finish this product for a month or two though and I can't wait that long.

                                                          I could finish it a lot faster, but I know myself, and I know I'll just open it up and not do anything, but playing with aweber and building my site and making everything look super nice is awesome I could do it all day.

                                                          Yea, I don't agree with everything going on with clickbank but I just don't have the time to check other places and learn whatever I need to learn and stuff. With clickbank they take care of everything mainly taxes and returns and that's very appealing to me I like it.

                                                          I'm not saying I want all these changes, just trying to see the positive possibilities since I'm going to be using Clickbank to start with anyways.
                                                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10419027].message }}
                                                          • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                                                            Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                                                            I'm like the fat kid on the bench that just wants to get on the field.

                                                            I'm not worried about the best team to play for, I just want to play, and once I'm playing, then I'll think about if it would be best to switch teams, but for now I just want to play.
                                                            All we're telling you is that while you're playing, you need to watch out for the guy running up to tackle you. You don't have to keep trying to justify your decision to put your product on ClickBank - that decision is yours alone to make. Just be aware of how they're operating now and don't go into it with rose-colored glasses on.

                                                            With clickbank I can get on the field fast, and I don't have to keep track of anything they do everything for me I don't even have to think. At the end of the year they just give me a paper, and I just give it to my sister, and then my taxes are magically done.

                                                            Once everything is second nature to me, then maybe I'll want to take the time and learn all the business/legal stuff but right now, I just want to play, that's it.
                                                            There's really nothing difficult about taxes when you do business online selling a digital product. You don't need ClickBank for that at all.

                                                            Yea I've been working on my list all day. I wanted to have a product ready right off the bat, but it's just going to take too long to finish and I want to get the ball rolling, so now I'm putting most of my focus on my site and writing out my auto responder.

                                                            I already have a free offer set up and stuff and I just noticed today that someone subscribed and unsubscribed and I never log into aweber so I'm guessing that person signed up and unsubscribed when they saw I wasn't sending anything after that.

                                                            I wasn't expecting people to already be finding my stuff though, but I just finished my first e-mail in Aweber and it looks super nice and matches my site well and I made a logo for the top of each -mail that looks really good, and this is sooooo awesome I'm about to be addicted to e-mail marketing this is fun.

                                                            I can't wait until I'm all set up with my first product done and everything but oh well I guess I'll just have to offer affiliate products before my own, but I really wanted to sell people something of my own before sending them somewhere else. I probably won't finish this product for a month or two though and I can't wait that long.
                                                            If you're still a month of two away from finishing your product, why are you so mentally invested in the idea of using ClickBank, despite everything that's happened? You have plenty of time to think about your choices for payment processing and affiliate management. Take your time and think it through until it's actually time to make a decision.

                                                            Yea, I don't agree with everything going on with clickbank but I just don't have the time to check other places and learn whatever I need to learn and stuff. With clickbank they take care of everything mainly taxes and returns and that's very appealing to me I like it.
                                                            Again, taxes and returns are easy, period. You really shouldn't be afraid of that stuff.

                                                            I'm not saying I want all these changes, just trying to see the positive possibilities since I'm going to be using Clickbank to start with anyways.
                                                            Any decision to use ClickBank (or any other service provider) has to be made based on a realistic understanding of the benefits and the potential downsides. If you still feel that you should be using ClickBank after weighing that out, then your decision is made and you don't have to fluff it up in your mind by pontificating about the positive possibilities. Your mental energies can be put to better use in other areas of your business.
                                                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10419072].message }}
                                                            • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                                                              Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                                                              All we're telling you is that while you're playing, you need to watch out for the guy running up to tackle you. You don't have to keep trying to justify your decision to put your product on ClickBank - that decision is yours alone to make. Just be aware of how they're operating now and don't go into it with rose-colored glasses on.



                                                              There's really nothing difficult about taxes when you do business online selling a digital product.



                                                              If you're still a month of two away from finishing your product, why are you so mentally invested in the idea of using ClickBank, despite everything that's happened? You have plenty of time to think about your choices for payment processing and affiliate management. Take your time and think it through until it's actually time to make a decision.



                                                              Again, taxes and returns are easy, period. You really shouldn't be afraid of that stuff.



                                                              Any decision to use ClickBank (or any other service provider) has to be made based on a realistic understanding of the benefits and the potential downsides. If you still feel that you should be using ClickBank after weighing that out, then your decision is made and you don't have to fluff it up in your mind by pontificating about the positive possibilities. Your mental energies can be put to better use in other areas of your business.
                                                              I was planning on having my product done and ready by Dec. 1st when I started, but I just slack when I force myself to do something. I could have it done in a week easily, probably 3 days if I really went at it, but I just won't do it. I just decided today to just work on my site and my autoresponder and then just work on my product a tiny bit too and then it will eventually get done.

                                                              For some reason when I tell myself to work on nothing and only my product, I end up not doing one single thing for days, and when I do work on it I don't get very far.

                                                              Working on it a little bit each day though, it'll be done in a month or two for sure.

                                                              Even in 2 months from now though I still wont's be ready to figure out everything I need to figure out without Clickbank.

                                                              To me, the positives of clickbank outweigh the potential negatives. Like they mentionin the thing I just read though, they are a retailer and not a payment processor and that's a big part of having this new badge. If they also use it to drive traffic, I'll just have to live with it until I want to figure out a huge mess of stuff I know nothing about.

                                                              And also, like they mentioned it is safe to use clickbank since I don't have to worry about scammers, and shady affiliates, or getting a huge burst of money out of nowhere, or charge backs, or anything.

                                                              But yea, I wasn't expecting to take so long to finish my first product, but I'm sure I'll still be going with Clickbank unless something crazy happens.
                                                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10419094].message }}
                                                              • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                                                                [DELETED]
                                                                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10419102].message }}
                                                                • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                                                                  I'm not sure what I think I need to figure out, it's all very foreign to me. Taxes, IRS, paper work, fraud, getting shut down, I don't know, I just feel safe using clickbank like it takes a lot of worries away.

                                                                  Also finding affiliates and paying them, and then figuring out refunds and getting my part of the refund back from the affiliate if an affiliate makes a sale that gets returned. Finding JV partners, I don't even know what a JV partner is I just know I need to find some and I'll make a lot of money from finding good ones. Just seems like a lot to deal with when I have so much other stuff I'd rather focus on. Clickbank just makes things easier, and at this point, I like easy.
                                                                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10419118].message }}
                                                                  • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                                                                    Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                                                                    I'm not sure what I think I need to figure out, it's all very foreign to me. Taxes, IRS,
                                                                    You print out your stuff or put in on a thumb drive and give it to the person who does your taxes. They have an easy job because you're giving them straightforward records with numbers on them. This applies regardless of what payment processor you use. Then you pay the IRS. Taxes done, IRS happy. ClickBank will not do your taxes or pay them for you.

                                                                    paper work,
                                                                    You'll still be doing paperwork. Any business licenses/permits, expense tracking, etc. are things you'll be doing yourself.

                                                                    fraud,
                                                                    Any half decent service you would use to process payments is going to have fraud prevention measures in place.

                                                                    getting shut down,
                                                                    By whom?

                                                                    I don't know, I just feel safe using clickbank like it takes a lot of worries away.
                                                                    I think you really need to take a step back and look at what ClickBank really does. I will also say that you shouldn't be afraid of handling your own business. If you are, you're going to have a tough time growing and achieving any reasonable level of success.

                                                                    Also finding affiliates and paying them,
                                                                    ClickBank is fine for that, and they do have their network of affiliates. But in my experience, the best affiliates will be the ones you recruit yourself (through contests and/or direct outreach to them through their online contact info after seeing their website in your niche), and you can manage those affiliates through any number of services other than ClickBank.

                                                                    and then figuring out refunds
                                                                    With regard to refunds where an affiliate isn't involved, this couldn't be easier regardless of how you accept payments.

                                                                    and getting my part of the refund back from the affiliate if an affiliate makes a sale that gets returned.
                                                                    With regard to refunds where an affiliate is involved, there are lots of people using affiliate management services other than ClickBank, and this gets handled fine. They really aren't the only game in town.

                                                                    Finding JV partners, I don't even know what a JV partner is I just know I need to find some and I'll make a lot of money from finding good ones.
                                                                    A JV partner is typically someone who has a strong presence in your niche and with whom you partner to promote your product. You'll be finding them and reaching out to them yourself. This is more a matter of business development than having your product on ClickBank.
                                                                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10419139].message }}
                                                                    • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                                                                      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                                                                      You print out your stuff or put in on a thumb drive and give it to the person who does your taxes. They have an easy job because you're giving them straightforward records with numbers on them. This applies regardless of what payment processor you use. Then you pay the IRS. Taxes done, IRS happy. ClickBank will not do your taxes or pay them for you.



                                                                      You'll still be doing paperwork. Any business licenses/permits, expense tracking, etc. are things you'll be doing yourself.



                                                                      Any half decent service you would use to process payments is going to have fraud prevention measures in place.



                                                                      By whom?



                                                                      I think you really need to take a step back and look at what ClickBank really does. I will also say that you shouldn't be afraid of handling your own business. If you are, you're going to have a tough time growing and achieving any reasonable level of success.



                                                                      ClickBank is fine for that, and they do have their network of affiliates. But in my experience, the best affiliates will be the ones you recruit yourself (through contests and/or direct outreach to them through their online contact info after seeing their website in your niche), and you can manage those affiliates through any number of services other than ClickBank.



                                                                      With regard to refunds where an affiliate isn't involved, this couldn't be easier regardless of how you accept payments.



                                                                      With regard to refunds where an affiliate is involved, there are lots of people using affiliate management services other than ClickBank, and this gets handled fine. They really aren't the only game in town.



                                                                      A JV partner is typically someone who has a strong presence in your niche and with whom you partner to promote your product. You'll be finding them and reaching out to them yourself. This is more a matter of business development than having your product on ClickBank.
                                                                      Well, with my product on Clickbank I don't need to worry about all that business development stuff. With a middle man everything works and is legit. I know I still have to do taxes with Clickbank but they just send me the papers I need, and then I hand them to someone else.

                                                                      You already have lot of experience so it's making a simple change to you but for me it's just a headache, I still need training wheels.

                                                                      I plan on finding JV's and affiliates on my own, but clickbank would still be the middle man which I like a lot.

                                                                      Clickbank is going to make it so I can get started fast, and easy with everything legit, and legal.

                                                                      I don't know near as much as most people do to be able to just easily use something besides clickbank, and nothing besides clickbank even sounds as good as clickbank. A lot of stuff people are worried about probably won't even happen. When Microsoft announced the Xbox One they were doing all sorts of shady crap and everyone said they were switching to Playstation so Xbox quickly reversed everything they were doing.

                                                                      If we were still talking about a big ol clickbank banner as the header of my sight I wouldn't even consider using Clickbank for 2 seconds, I would definitely go through all the extra crap even though I very much do not want to do that, but this little badge I can live with.

                                                                      I kind of actually think it would help with conversions, but I definitely don't see it hurting conversions.

                                                                      I think I'll be happy with Clickbank, and if not I'll figuure something else out. I'm going to have to anyways because down the road I plan on having something for around 500 dollars and I don't even think we can price that high on clickbank. Most of the big names in my niche don't use clickbank, some do. I'm going to use it unless my gut feeling says to do otherwise but right now my gut says to hop on board the Clickbank train and finally start making money like a grown up instead of getting paid like a pre-teen with braces.
                                                                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10419170].message }}
                                                                      • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                                                                        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                                                                        Well, with my product on Clickbank I don't need to worry about all that business development stuff. With a middle man everything works and is legit.
                                                                        By business development I mean the stuff you'll be doing to get JV partners whether you use ClickBank or not. You won't get JV partners without reaching out to them and convincing them to partner with you, which falls into the realm of business development. ClickBank has affiliates who may or may not promote your product, but if you intend to get JV partners then you'll be doing business development, and ClickBank won't do it for you.

                                                                        I know I still have to do taxes with Clickbank but they just send me the papers I need, and then I hand them to someone else.

                                                                        You already have lot of experience so it's making a simple change to you but for me it's just a headache, I still need training wheels.
                                                                        Any service you use to collect payments will have a button you press to get your records.

                                                                        I plan on finding JV's and affiliates on my own, but clickbank would still be the middle man which I like a lot.
                                                                        I'm not sure why you prefer the idea of ClickBank being a middleman vs. any number of other services you could use to manage your affiliates, especially after their recent behavior.

                                                                        Clickbank is going to make it so I can get started fast, and easy with everything legit, and legal.

                                                                        I don't know near as much as most people do to be able to just easily use something besides clickbank, and nothing besides clickbank even sounds as good as clickbank.
                                                                        You've made up your mind, then. Just tread carefully if you use their services, and be aware of what they've already tried to do to their customers and where this is likely to be headed.

                                                                        A lot of stuff people are worried about probably won't even happen.
                                                                        You're entitled to your opinion, even as a newcomer, but I'm telling you as someone with years of ClickBank experience that I think you're being too optimistic.

                                                                        When Microsoft announced the Xbox One they were doing all sorts of shady crap and everyone said they were switching to Playstation so Xbox quickly reversed everything they were doing.
                                                                        I really don't think the situations are comparable. ClickBank attempted to take over their customers' websites against their will, steal their traffic, and redirect their website addresses to pages on ClickBank's own website. These are people's businesses we're talking about here. If you think the fact that they tried to do that is irrelevant because they've reversed course (for now) due to the backlash, and that type of unethical behavior isn't a serious factor in whether or not you should get involved with them going forward, I think that's a little misguided.

                                                                        If we were still talking about a big ol clickbank banner as the header of my sight I wouldn't even consider using Clickbank for 2 seconds, I would definitely go through all the extra crap even though I very much do not want to do that,
                                                                        Honestly, if you view things like getting your taxes done or handling refunds as "all the extra crap" that you "very much do not want to do," then I hate to say it but you're going to have to seriously change your mindset if you want to succeed with your own business.

                                                                        That stuff is easy. That is not the hard stuff involved with growing a business, and there is hard stuff.

                                                                        It's not my place to lecture you, but you're way off the mark with that type of thinking.

                                                                        but this little badge I can live with.

                                                                        I kind of actually think it would help with conversions, but I definitely don't see it hurting conversions.
                                                                        I've tried to communicate to you that how the badge affects conversions in the short term is not the only issue here. This would be a far different thread if that was the only thing in question. I'm not sure why you're so focused on that one aspect of the discussion.

                                                                        I think I'll be happy with Clickbank, and if not I'll figuure something else out. I'm going to have to anyways because down the road I plan on having something for around 500 dollars and I don't even think we can price that high on clickbank. Most of the big names in my niche don't use clickbank, some do. I'm going to use it unless my gut feeling says to do otherwise but right now my gut says to hop on board the Clickbank train and finally start making money like a grown up instead of getting paid like a pre-teen with braces.
                                                                        Then you've made your decision.
                                                                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10419227].message }}
                                                                        • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                                                                          Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                                                                          By business development I mean the stuff you'll be doing to get JV partners whether you use ClickBank or not. You won't get JV partners without reaching out to them and convincing them to partner with you, which falls into the realm of business development. ClickBank has affiliates who may or may not promote your product, but if you intend to get JV partners then you'll be doing business development, and ClickBank won't do it for you.



                                                                          Any service you use to collect payments will have a button you press to get your records.



                                                                          I'm not sure why you prefer the idea of ClickBank being a middleman vs. any number of other services you could use to manage your affiliates, especially after their recent behavior.



                                                                          You've made up your mind, then. Just tread carefully if you use their services, and be aware of what they've already tried to do to their customers and where this is likely to be headed.



                                                                          You're entitled to your opinion, even as a newcomer, but I'm telling you as someone with years of ClickBank experience that I think you're being too optimistic.



                                                                          I really don't think the situations are comparable. ClickBank attempted to take over their customers' websites against their will, steal their traffic, and redirect their website addresses to pages on ClickBank's own website. These are people's businesses we're talking about here. If you think the fact that they tried to do that is irrelevant because they've reversed course (for now) due to the backlash, and that type of unethical behavior isn't a serious factor in whether or not you should get involved with them going forward, I think that's a little misguided.



                                                                          Honestly, if you view things like getting your taxes done or handling refunds as "all the extra crap" that you "very much do not want to do," then I hate to say it but you're going to have to seriously change your mindset if you want to succeed with your own business.

                                                                          That stuff is easy. That is not the hard stuff involved with growing a business, and there is hard stuff.

                                                                          It's not my place to lecture you, but you're way off the mark with that type of thinking.



                                                                          I've tried to communicate to you that how the badge affects conversions in the short term is not the only issue here. This would be a far different thread if that was the only thing in question. I'm not sure why you're so focused on that one aspect of the discussion.



                                                                          Then you've made your decision.
                                                                          Me not knowing about taxes and payment processors, and dealing with returns etc everything clickbank does for me, that has nothing to do with what I know about my business and marketing.

                                                                          Clickbank does it all for me so why would I waste my time learning something I don't need to learn?

                                                                          When and if a time comes that I have to learn that stuff, then I will, but I'll be using clickbank for now so knowing that stuff is irrelevant to me and my future business and has nothing to do with how successful or unsuccessful my business will be.
                                                                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10419295].message }}
                                                                          • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                                                                            Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                                                                            Me not knowing about taxes
                                                                            What is there to know? You give your records to the person who prepares your taxes. ClickBank provides records, but so does every other service you use to collect payments.

                                                                            and payment processors,
                                                                            What about them, specifically?

                                                                            and dealing with returns etc
                                                                            What is there to deal with? It's a digital product. If you have a customer who wants a refund and you can't help them any further, then you refund them. It's literally just a button, nothing complicated.

                                                                            If you're going to use ClickBank so you don't have to deal with that, you need to realize that successful vendors actually do deal with that. If you just ignore customers and let ClickBank default to refunding them, your refund rate will be much higher, which costs you money and can put your account in jeopardy (with ClickBank or any payment processor). Being there as the point of contact gives you a chance to assist the customer and prevent the need for a refund whenever possible.

                                                                            everything clickbank does for me, that has nothing to do with what I know about my business and marketing.

                                                                            Clickbank does it all for me so why would I waste my time learning something I don't need to learn?
                                                                            Because those things are incredibly easy, so easy that to get into bed with a company like ClickBank just to avoid doing those things seems very unwise to me.

                                                                            That's just my opinion, for what it's worth.

                                                                            When and if a time comes that I have to learn that stuff, then I will, but I'll be using clickbank for now so knowing that stuff is irrelevant to me and my future business and has nothing to do with how successful or unsuccessful my business will be.
                                                                            OK.
                                                                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10419304].message }}
                                                                            • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                                                                              If a blatant Markplace link is their intention and the result, I'd readily explore other options.

                                                                              Those are are trying to prevent this before it seemingly might happen, maybe have a lot more invested in CB in comparison to those who are just waiting to see if they will weave a rope bridge, or a noose.
                                                                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10419369].message }}
                                                      • Profile picture of the author agmccall
                                                        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                                                        I couldn't imagine that little badge making any difference whatsoever, so that's not shocking to me. People are saying though that they will add stuff to the badge, like a link going back to clickbank, but I just can't imagine that making any difference either.
                                                        As an affiliate, the first thing we learn is to look at the sales page for any "Leaks" and a leak is any link, other than the required pages, that leaves that site. For most info products a huge amount of sales come from a small amount of affiliates. And, if the affiliates stop promoting products then your sales will drastically decrease. That is a fact.

                                                        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                                                        Everybody is very quick to assume clickbank wants to steal the affiliates traffic, but what if Clickbanks true plan is to become an affiliate for every product on clickbank and then drive traffic to their site, so anything someone buys through that traffic clickbank gets a huge commission. Then they would have motivation to drive their own traffic.
                                                        That is fine, they do not need a badge or anything else on a vendors site to do that. In fact, they should have been doing that from the beginning.


                                                        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                                                        I just think there's no reason to jump to crazy conclusions quite yet, but I am glad that people are upset and speaking out because they are making a difference.
                                                        Crazy conclusions? Have you read this thread at all. Did you see what they tried? Have you also noticed in all clickbanks responses or non responses that they will not try again? The answer is NO, they have not said they will not be doing this again in the future

                                                        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                                                        If clickbank kept the header I would most likely take the extra time to learn this stuff on my own, but that badge, I can live with it. It looks good, and again, I just can't see that thing taking any traffic at all, and especially nothing noticeable. Maybe one random click out of like a million visitors.
                                                        For the life of me I can not understand how someone would think that someone elses business banner on their place of business looks "Good", But if you and anyone else like you feels it is ok to turn your hard earned customers to another company, as well as screwing the affiliates that are helping your sussess then all the power to you.

                                                        al
                                                        Signature

                                                        "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

                                                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10418548].message }}
                                                    • Profile picture of the author agmccall
                                                      Originally Posted by rjd1265 View Post

                                                      Update:
                                                      The badge is the same color scheme as my website, lower right corner

                                                      Results were SHOCKING!.......

                                                      No change at all. None. Same earnings per hop, same hops per order.....

                                                      And if you click on the badge, all it says is that Clickbank is a trusted retailer for my site and they have an A+ BBB rating
                                                      Remember this. It is javascript. once implemented it can do whatever clickbank wants whenever they want and you will have no control over it at all
                                                      Signature

                                                      "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

                                                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10418512].message }}
                                                    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                                                      Originally Posted by rjd1265 View Post

                                                      Update:
                                                      The badge is the same color scheme as my website, lower right corner

                                                      Results were SHOCKING!.......

                                                      No change at all. None. Same earnings per hop, same hops per order.....

                                                      And if you click on the badge, all it says is that Clickbank is a trusted retailer for my site and they have an A+ BBB rating
                                                      If you're content with letting them put something on your own website that says they're actually the retailer, and you're not concerned about the fact that they can put whatever else they want on your website now that you've installed their code - even after everything they've tried to do already, you're not concerned about that - then you have the right to make that decision. I don't understand it, and like many others I obviously see it differently, but it's your choice.
                                                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10418665].message }}
                                                      • Profile picture of the author rjd1265
                                                        Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                                                        If you're content with letting them put something on your own website that says they're actually the retailer, and you're not concerned about the fact that they can put whatever else they want on your website now that you've installed their code - even after everything they've tried to do already, you're not concerned about that - then you have the right to make that decision. I don't understand it, and like many others I obviously see it differently, but it's your choice.
                                                        They ACTUALLY are the retailer.

                                                        And they take care of all the financials for me and my affiliates.......I don't have to do any of this so that alone is worth it.

                                                        Other programs have their issues too, as stated 1,000 times in this thread. I have an account with JvZoo and they suck in some ways that clickbank does not and visa versa....

                                                        Are you a vendor with Clickbank? I know a lot of people on here jawing about the badge and they are not even a vendor.....I am not saying that sarcastically, I truly want to know if you are or not and what your results have been
                                                        Signature
                                                        You Are A Snowflake
                                                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10418956].message }}
                                                        • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                                                          It isn't a problem.

                                                          Life is good and we rock on. We can have a good whine or a good wine.

                                                          If they make further additions in the future I can review things then, but as it stands if a small pop up doofer is going to be a burden to my business, I'd need to review the integrity of my business.

                                                          Grateful for the amenity of Clickbank to date,

                                                          With fortitude
                                                          Daniel
                                                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10418986].message }}
                                                          • Profile picture of the author rjd1265
                                                            Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

                                                            It isn't a problem.

                                                            Life is good and we rock on. We can have a good whine or a good wine.

                                                            If they make further additions in the future I can review things then, but as it stands if a small pop up doofer is going to be a burden to my business, I'd need to review the integrity of my business.

                                                            Grateful for the amenity of Clickbank to date,

                                                            With fortitude
                                                            Daniel
                                                            Oh my God, So well said and pissed I never thought of it.

                                                            So True....If you business suffers because of a banner, then you never had a legit business....

                                                            and yes, they have javascript on my site now....you act like they are going to start throwing a bunch of ads on my site or something.....

                                                            If push comes to shove, Ill change my payment link to Stripe and pay my affiliates myself through the hundreds of programs out there.

                                                            In business you have to learn to go with the flow...this is now the flow so go with it...or just go!
                                                            Signature
                                                            You Are A Snowflake
                                                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10419195].message }}
                                                            • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                                                              Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

                                                              If they make further additions in the future I can review things then, but as it stands if a small pop up doofer is going to be a burden to my business, I'd need to review the integrity of my business.

                                                              Grateful for the amenity of Clickbank to date,
                                                              and

                                                              Originally Posted by rjd1265 View Post

                                                              So True....If you business suffers because of a banner, then you never had a legit business....

                                                              ...

                                                              In business you have to learn to go with the flow...this is now the flow so go with it...or just go!
                                                              Their original rollout of this whole scheme made their actual goal clear, and I don't think it makes sense to just quietly go along with what they're doing now so they can get their foot in the door. You would probably come to regret that later.

                                                              and yes, they have javascript on my site now....you act like they are going to start throwing a bunch of ads on my site or something.....
                                                              Or maybe a link to their own "marketplace" that siphons away your traffic? The kind they already tried to put on everyone's site in the initial version? The kind their carefully worded "apologetic" press release left them the option to bring back once they get their foot in the door? The kind they won't answer questions about?

                                                              I'm not trying to be a jerk, I swear. It's just that if you put anything past them after what they've tried to do here, I don't think you're thinking this through. There is absolutely no way of knowing what they will display on your site when you give them the ability to display anything they want.

                                                              If push comes to shove, Ill change my payment link to Stripe and pay my affiliates myself through the hundreds of programs out there.
                                                              At least you have a plan in place for switching away from ClickBank. I can't fault you there.
                                                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10419260].message }}
                                                        • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                                                          I'm like the fat kid on the bench that just wants to get on the field.

                                                          I'm not worried about the best team to play for, I just want to play, and once I'm playing, then I'll think about if it would be best to switch teams, but for now I just want to play.

                                                          With clickbank I can get on the field fast, and I don't have to keep track of anything they do everything for me I don't even have to think. At the end of the year they just give me a paper, and I just give it to my sister, and then my taxes are magically done.

                                                          Once everything is second nature to me, then maybe I'll want to take the time and learn all the business/legal stuff but right now, I just want to play, that's it.
                                                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10419007].message }}
                                                        • Profile picture of the author trevord92
                                                          Originally Posted by rjd1265 View Post

                                                          They ACTUALLY are the retailer.
                                                          In the loosest sense of the term, I'd maybe agree although I think that at best they're a dropshipper.

                                                          Originally Posted by rjd1265 View Post

                                                          Are you a vendor with Clickbank? I know a lot of people on here jawing about the badge and they are not even a vendor.....I am not saying that sarcastically, I truly want to know if you are or not and what your results have been
                                                          I was a vendor with Clickbank but have moved the various products I had with them away from the platform.

                                                          Like others here, I don't trust having things that I can't control on my pages,

                                                          For me, that includes their Javascript that will currently display a trust badge and could in future display anything that Clicbank's programmers decide to display, anywhere on the page, totally under their control, not mine.

                                                          They could add extra links to the Javascipt, change where it displays, etc.

                                                          And they could make that a condition of using their payment processing system.
                                                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10419029].message }}
                                                          • Profile picture of the author ClickBank
                                                            Originally Posted by trevord92 View Post

                                                            And they could make that a condition of using their payment processing system.
                                                            Our Javascript is required for any vendor that elects to have us retail their product. It must be present on any page where a ClickBank payment link is present.

                                                            Again, there is some confusion about Internet Retailers versus Payment Processors versus Payment Gateways versus Payment Facilitators (these are very distinct business types with distinct requirements imposed on them by the major credit card brands)

                                                            There are real implications behind the types of services that you can receive from any provider with whom you seek to do business, imposed either legally or through industry regulation from entities such as the large card brands.

                                                            In a previous reply, I referenced a very comprehensive posting that details the differences between payment processors and retailers and includes a complete list of services that we are able to offer because we are the retailer. Our status as a retailer is part of the client contract that we require everyone to agree to before you are permitted to use our platform. For example, a Payment Processor will never refund a consumer; they require the holder of the merchant account to do that or suffer a chargeback. Retailers hold the merchant account, therefore they issue refunds.

                                                            As a reminder, our client contract is a legally binding agreement.

                                                            It would be very useful and informative to study the details we've posted here:
                                                            https://support.clickbank.com/entrie...Why-it-Matters

                                                            Thanks,
                                                            The ClickBank Team
                                                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10419050].message }}
                                                            • Profile picture of the author trevord92
                                                              Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

                                                              As a reminder, our client contract is a legally binding agreement.
                                                              I find it interesting that of all the things that have been discussed in this thread, the only one you've picked up on recently is me not thinking that Clickbank is truly a retailer.

                                                              Just because something is in a legal document doesn't automatically mean that it is true. If it was, there would be no need for courts and judges in a lot of cases - the prosecution would merely state that something was in the contract therefore it had to be upheld.

                                                              And the document you pointed to has a clause that states "If any provision of this Agreement is determined by a court to be unenforceable or invalid, the validity of the remaining parts, terms or provisions shall not be affected by that determination"
                                                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10419080].message }}
                                                            • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                                                              Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

                                                              Our Javascript is required for any vendor that elects to have us retail their product. It must be present on any page where a ClickBank payment link is present.

                                                              Again, there is some confusion about Internet Retailers versus Payment Processors versus Payment Gateways versus Payment Facilitators (these are very distinct business types with distinct requirements imposed on them by the major credit card brands)

                                                              There are real implications behind the types of services that you can receive from any provider with whom you seek to do business, imposed either legally or through industry regulation from entities such as the large card brands.

                                                              In a previous reply, I referenced a very comprehensive posting that details the differences between payment processors and retailers and includes a complete list of services that we are able to offer because we are the retailer. Our status as a retailer is part of the client contract that we require everyone to agree to before you are permitted to use our platform. For example, a Payment Processor will never refund a consumer; they require the holder of the merchant account to do that or suffer a chargeback. Retailers hold the merchant account, therefore they issue refunds.

                                                              As a reminder, our client contract is a legally binding agreement.

                                                              It would be very useful and informative to study the details we've posted here:
                                                              https://support.clickbank.com/entrie...Why-it-Matters

                                                              Thanks,
                                                              The ClickBank Team
                                                              What I just read sounds really good to me! Half of it might as well have been in a different language, one I don't want to learn, and don't have to using your services which I think is great. I can't see anywhere better to start selling.
                                                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10419081].message }}
                                                              • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                                                                Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                                                                What I just read sounds really good to me! Half of it might as well have been in a different language, one I don't want to learn, and don't have to using your services which I think is great. I can't see anywhere better to start selling.
                                                                You will probably never have to learn most of that regardless of whether you use ClickBank or not.

                                                                Reading through the thread, you'll see that this ClickBank rep keeps popping in to post the same thing, rarely answering any questions or responding to the concerns voiced by so many members. What you're replying to is simply PR, unfortunately.

                                                                Even in 2 months from now though I still wont's be ready to figure out everything I need to figure out without Clickbank.
                                                                What specifically do you think you need to figure out? I keep trying to help you understand that dealing with the things you're worried about - taxes and refunds - is not difficult. There are many businesses online (the vast majority) that do just fine without ClickBank.

                                                                To me, the positives of clickbank outweigh the potential negatives. Like they mentionin the thing I just read though, they are a retailer and not a payment processor and that's a big part of having this new badge.
                                                                That notion has been addressed thoroughly in this thread. I can link you to the posts if you like.

                                                                And also, like they mentioned it is safe to use clickbank since I don't have to worry about scammers, and shady affiliates, or getting a huge burst of money out of nowhere, or charge backs, or anything.
                                                                You do still have to worry about some of those things, plus you get to worry about the fact that you're using the kind of company that just tried to pull a hostile takeover on all of their customers' websites, and still appears to have plans to steal their customers' traffic going forward. That doesn't sound safe to me.
                                                                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10419097].message }}
                                                            • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                                                              Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

                                                              Again, there is some confusion about Internet Retailers versus Payment Processors versus Payment Gateways versus Payment Facilitators (these are very distinct business types with distinct requirements imposed on them by the major credit card brands)
                                                              There is no confusion about the fact that ClickBank is a "retailer" as a matter of legal convenience. But ClickBank is not a retailer in the real world, and repeating yourself instead of addressing the direct questions you've been asked (some of which have to do with the "requirements" you mentioned) isn't helping anything.

                                                              For example, a Payment Processor will never refund a consumer; they require the holder of the merchant account to do that or suffer a chargeback. Retailers hold the merchant account, therefore they issue refunds.
                                                              Most people in the IM community include companies like PayPal in their definition of a payment processor. While this may not be the terminology used in the banking industry, since you're addressing a forum, it's best to understand the terminology that's used here.

                                                              Companies like PayPal can and do refund consumers.

                                                              As a reminder, our client contract is a legally binding agreement.
                                                              People are only subject to that for as long as they're willing to tolerate ClickBank's behavior.

                                                              It would be very useful and informative to study the details we've posted here:
                                                              https://support.clickbank.com/entrie...Why-it-Matters
                                                              What would be useful is for ClickBank to answer the direct questions that have been posted here challenging the justifications for this whole scheme and seeking to clarify ClickBank's plans going forward, instead of posting the same link over and over.
                                                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10419091].message }}
                                                              • Profile picture of the author ClickBank
                                                                Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                                                                There is no confusion about the fact that ClickBank is a "retailer" as a matter of legal convenience. But ClickBank is not a retailer in the real world, and repeating yourself instead of addressing the direct questions you've been asked (some of which have to do with the "requirements" you mentioned) isn't helping anything.
                                                                Hi Jon Patrick,

                                                                While I can certainly appreciate the passion that is being brought to this discussion, I cannot help when the answers that have been given are not deemed valid and then determined to be "unanswered". We have stated our intentions, our reasoning and the drivers behind this initiative within the links that I posted. Not accepting those responses will not change them.

                                                                Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                                                                Most people in the IM community include companies like PayPal in their definition of a payment processor. While this may not be the terminology used in the banking industry, since you're addressing a forum, it's best to understand the terminology that's used here.

                                                                Companies like PayPal can and do refund consumers.
                                                                This is why I strongly recommended reading the knowledge base article that I posted. PayPal is a Payment Facilitator, not a processor nor a retailer. As such, they proxy transactions on behalf of other "sub-merchants" against their own merchant account and therefore do have the ability to issue a refund.

                                                                This misunderstanding is at the core of the confusion here. Reading and learning the facts behind the different types of companies would be useful.

                                                                Thanks,
                                                                The ClickBank Team
                                                                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10420383].message }}
                                                                • Profile picture of the author rjd1265
                                                                  Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

                                                                  Hi Jon Patrick,

                                                                  While I can certainly appreciate the passion that is being brought to this discussion, I cannot help when the answers that have been given are not deemed valid and then determined to be "unanswered". We have stated our intentions, our reasoning and the drivers behind this initiative within the links that I posted. Not accepting those responses will not change them.



                                                                  This is why I strongly recommended reading the knowledge base article that I posted. PayPal is a Payment Facilitator, not a processor nor a retailer. As such, they proxy transactions on behalf of other "sub-merchants" against their own merchant account and therefore do have the ability to issue a refund.

                                                                  This misunderstanding is at the core of the confusion here. Reading and learning the facts behind the different types of companies would be useful.

                                                                  Thanks,
                                                                  The ClickBank Team
                                                                  Just one question....I have the badge on my site, so do many others but how come large income sites like gsniper and 3 week diet do not have the badge yet?

                                                                  Special treatment for your juggernauts or they slipped past the requirement?
                                                                  Signature
                                                                  You Are A Snowflake
                                                                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10420391].message }}
                                                                  • Profile picture of the author ClickBank
                                                                    Originally Posted by rjd1265 View Post

                                                                    Just one question....I have the badge on my site, so do many others but how come large income sites like gsniper and 3 week diet do not have the badge yet?

                                                                    Special treatment for your juggernauts or they slipped past the requirement?
                                                                    Hi rjd1265,

                                                                    We have set a Jan 5 deadline for members of our Platinum program. All other vendors have a deadline of Dec 15. We have a number of larger clients that are actively testing to determine which version they wish to have on their site and traffic is growing rapidly.

                                                                    We recognize that some larger clients have more extensive web properties that they must alter as they typically sell many products from different pages. This drove the timelines we published. Membership in our Platinum program comes with many benefits.

                                                                    Thanks,
                                                                    The ClickBank Team
                                                                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10420401].message }}
                                                                  • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
                                                                    Originally Posted by rjd1265 View Post

                                                                    Just one question....I have the badge on my site, so do many others but how come large income sites like gsniper and 3 week diet do not have the badge yet?

                                                                    Special treatment for your juggernauts or they slipped past the requirement?
                                                                    Oh... you didn't understand that you are beta testing these features for ClickBank, on your site?

                                                                    Even though this change was mandated by the credit card companies... their "juggernauts" (i.e. platinum vendors) were given a significant grace period.

                                                                    No reason to negatively impact click thrus/ sales ratios on heavily traffic-ed offers until they figure out all the ramifications.(tongue in cheek)
                                                                    Signature

                                                                    Sid Hale
                                                                    Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

                                                                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10420420].message }}
                                                          • Profile picture of the author ovidiu
                                                            Care to share what platform you are using right now? Maybe go into details about the benefits compared to CB? Sorry if you already mentioned it, this thread is too long and most of it is just about "who said what". On the other hand, seeing what other options there are out there would be a lot more useful. Maybe one of them will finally become a good CB competitor.
                                                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10427343].message }}
                                                            • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
                                                              Many different "platforms" are discussed all over this forum, but there is a currently active thread secifically for those recommendations...

                                                              http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...twork-why.html

                                                              Originally Posted by ovidiu View Post

                                                              Care to share what platform you are using right now? Maybe go into details about the benefits compared to CB? Sorry if you already mentioned it, this thread is too long and most of it is just about "who said what". On the other hand, seeing what other options there are out there would be a lot more useful. Maybe one of them will finally become a good CB competitor.
                                                              Because the vendor chooses which affiliate platform(s) to list their products on, affiliates would be wise to search multiple affiliate networks to find the best products to promote in their niche.

                                                              Any given affiliate network will have its pluses/minuses, but (as long as you have no major objections to network's policies) your overriding concern should be the quality of the product you are recommending to your audience.
                                                              Signature

                                                              Sid Hale
                                                              Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

                                                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10428420].message }}
                                                              • Profile picture of the author ovidiu
                                                                Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post


                                                                Because the vendor chooses which affiliate platform(s) to list their products on, affiliates would be wise to search multiple affiliate networks to find the best products to promote in their niche.

                                                                Any given affiliate network will have its pluses/minuses, but (as long as you have no major objections to network's policies) your overriding concern should be the quality of the product you are recommending to your audience.
                                                                Right, I'm also asking from a vendor perspective. I do both. I'm sure a lot of people are interested in an network that's geared towards digital products and has essential features that clickbank has, such as one-click upsells, easy sign up (I just went through a nightmare to get approved inside avangate as an affiliate and I'm sure that when I approve as a vendor it's going to be tougher), automatic affiliate payments etc.
                                                                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10428826].message }}
                                                                • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
                                                                  Then by all means, ask it...

                                                                  Originally Posted by ovidiu View Post

                                                                  Right, I'm also asking from a vendor perspective.
                                                                  but I would suggest you start a thread specifically for that purpose, or use the thread I recommended earlier - rather than de-railing this discussion about a specific change in ClickBank policy.
                                                                  Signature

                                                                  Sid Hale
                                                                  Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

                                                                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10429309].message }}
                                                        • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                                                          Originally Posted by rjd1265 View Post

                                                          They ACTUALLY are the retailer.
                                                          This notion has been addressed ad nauseam in this thread, so I won't address it again other than to point you to my previous posts on the topic. I can link you to them if you'd like.

                                                          And they take care of all the financials for me and my affiliates.......I don't have to do any of this so that alone is worth it.
                                                          Was that worth paying their fee? Yes. Does it justify the things they've recently tried to do, and can a rational person continue to see them as a stable and trustworthy company after their recent actions? I don't think so.

                                                          Other programs have their issues too, as stated 1,000 times in this thread. I have an account with JvZoo and they suck in some ways that clickbank does not and visa versa....
                                                          If JVZoo starts doing anything like what ClickBank has tried to pull here, I will be the first to denounce them.

                                                          Are you a vendor with Clickbank? I know a lot of people on here jawing about the badge and they are not even a vendor.....I am not saying that sarcastically, I truly want to know if you are or not and what your results have been
                                                          Yes, I'm a vendor, as are many of the other participants in this thread. I've processed hundreds of thousands of dollars in sales through ClickBank (these weren't the results of using ClickBank specifically, as I could have chosen to use other service providers), and I was always a huge fan until they came up with this whole scheme.

                                                          To be clear, though, affiliates who use ClickBank's services have a stake in this issue, too. I also don't think you have to be a vendor or an affiliate to see how utterly wrong ClickBank's recent behavior has been.
                                                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10419052].message }}
                                                    • Originally Posted by rjd1265 View Post

                                                      Update:
                                                      The badge is the same color scheme as my website, lower right corner

                                                      Results were SHOCKING!.......

                                                      No change at all. None. Same earnings per hop, same hops per order.....

                                                      And if you click on the badge, all it says is that Clickbank is a trusted retailer for my site and they have an A+ BBB rating
                                                      Your conversions didn't improve? Your refund rate didn't decrease?

                                                      If there was no change at all then why are we forced to have the badge on our sites? What you saying proves that we don't need to have the badge for increasing conversions and reducing refunds.

                                                      Surely then it should be optional to have the badge. Otherwise it's just proof that Clickbank just wants to use our sales pages to get more exposure, that's all.
                                                      Signature

                                                      Website Design | App Creation | Video Marketing | Social Media | Web Hosting

                                                      ==> SlashTouch.Com

                                                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10419020].message }}
                                                      • Profile picture of the author rjd1265
                                                        Originally Posted by Makabongwe Maseko View Post

                                                        Your conversions didn't improve? Your refund rate didn't decrease?

                                                        If there was no change at all then why are we forced to have the badge on our sites? What you saying proves that we don't need to have the badge for increasing conversions and reducing refunds.

                                                        Surely then it should be optional to have the badge. Otherwise it's just proof that Clickbank just wants to use our sales pages to get more exposure, that's all.
                                                        I have refunds lower than 1% because I give a quality product and I say exactly what you will be getting so consumers do not buy and feel cheated once the product is delivered.

                                                        and keep in mind, I am just one vendor......I am sure some have better experiences and some have worse.

                                                        I am simply stating that my conversions did not suffer at all, as some stated it would.
                                                        Signature
                                                        You Are A Snowflake
                                                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10419185].message }}
                                                  • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
                                                    Hi Justin,

                                                    Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                                                    I just can't see this being a problem for affiliates. If I was driving traffic to like a stop diabetes offer or some new diet or something, I seriously can not imagine one single person clicking on the clickbank badge, leaving the page, and then buying something else on clickbank instead.

                                                    I just don't see that happening.
                                                    I don't think anyone else sees that happening either.
                                                    In its current form, the badge doesn't represent a traffic leak at all.

                                                    That doesn't change the fact that their marketplace, if successful, will represent a large competitive challenge for affiliates, and by your own admission...
                                                    If it does happen, then all the affiliates will jump ship and so will I and they'll be forced to go back to how they were and hope people come back, or they will just straight up be out of business and the new CEO will be out however much money he just spent to buy Clickbank which I'm sure was an insane amount of money.
                                                    I think that is pretty much what I said above.

                                                    (BTW - the CEO was elected by the board, and may/may not have any monies invested in the company at all)


                                                    I don't understand why I keep hearing that Clickbank's new market won't work, and then I hear Clickbank's new market is going to take away all of the affiliates traffic and money.
                                                    Connect the dots.
                                                    According to ClickBank, they can't just "go back to how they were", because the credit card companies are insisting on this change for ClickBank to continue providing their payment services. Whether that is true, or not... how long do affiliates/vendors wait for ClickBank's new business model to stabilize?

                                                    How many times do vendors insert/change their sales pages to include/exclude ClickBank provided javascript code?

                                                    I would assume clickbank would already know if they took all the affiliates traffic and money they would all leave, which means all of the vendors would leave, which means they wouldn't make any money. I don't think they are trying to go out of business, and I trust in the end everything will be good, or they'll see it's not working out and go back to normal.
                                                    In the end???
                                                    Unlike you, many vendors/affiliates already rely on their ClickBank earnings and will be unwilling to mark time while ClickBank tries to sort out how to become a true retailer of online products.

                                                    For all we know once it's all set up the affiliate will still be credited for any sales if the customer leaves the original offer through the badge.

                                                    If you send someone to an offer sold on Amazon as an affiliate, and they don't buy it, you still get paid for anything they buy on Amazon if they start looking at other stuff, so it's definitely possible for them to do.
                                                    For all we know... that's true. Except their original attempt to launch their new Marketplace (the header) did have links to their marketplace, and the affiliate cookie was ignored if the visitor clicked on a buy button from within the marketplace.
                                                    Signature

                                                    Sid Hale
                                                    Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

                                                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10418576].message }}
                                                  • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                                                    Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                                                    I just can't see this being a problem for affiliates. If I was driving traffic to like a stop diabetes offer or some new diet or something, I seriously can not imagine one single person clicking on the clickbank badge, leaving the page, and then buying something else on clickbank instead.

                                                    I just don't see that happening.
                                                    I can't imagine them buying something else either, but I can certainly imagine a portion of them clicking on a link in that "badge" and leaving the page. That's called a "leak" and there is a reason you typically don't want a leak on your page.

                                                    If it does happen, then all the affiliates will jump ship
                                                    It all depends. Some people are pretty dependent on ClickBank, unfortunately, either because they have a hard time finding offers relevant to their particular niche somewhere else or because they've put a lot of time into creating presell pages for ClickBank products.

                                                    and so will I and they'll be forced to go back to how they were and hope people come back,
                                                    That would still mean we all go through a turbulent period in the meantime during which ClickBank is implementing these changes and seeing if they benefit from them or not.

                                                    or they will just straight up be out of business and the new CEO will be out however much money he just spent to buy Clickbank which I'm sure was an insane amount of money.
                                                    A new CEO is typically appointed at a company like ClickBank. Ray Morris didn't buy the company as far as I know.

                                                    Something like this happened with amazon too when they changed their kindle payout to pages read. All these people writing 3 page pornos basically scamming the system freaked out and left, but everyone else that was using it legitimately in the first place is making even MORE money than they were before.
                                                    The big difference is that the scheme ClickBank is trying to pull here affects everyone, not just people who are "scamming the system."

                                                    I don't understand why I keep hearing that Clickbank's new market won't work, and then I hear Clickbank's new market is going to take away all of the affiliates traffic and money.

                                                    If it takes away from the affiliates, then that must mean their new idea is going to work.

                                                    ...

                                                    You can't have your cake and eat it too.

                                                    Is this marketplace going to fail and it won't really make any noticeable difference, or is this marketplace going to succeed and affiliates will lose all their traffic and money?
                                                    Because you're new to all this, it's easy to make the mistake of oversimplifying things, but there are many potential problems with what they're trying to do. The idea that their marketplace would be in competition with their own affiliates is just one of them, and that one would be a problem for the affiliates specifically, at least at first.

                                                    Affiliates are people, too.

                                                    There are actually many more affiliates using ClickBank than vendors.

                                                    It would then become a problem for vendors also, since the source of traffic would have shifted from affiliates to ClickBank itself, at which point ClickBank would have much more control over who gets traffic, and how much.

                                                    I for one, think it will not work. I don't think anybody is going to experience any noticeable difference besides a badge on their site.

                                                    All that bade does in my eyes is make people feel safer buying from someone they've never heard of on some little home made website, that badge let's people know, "Hey, this is legit, your payment is being processed by a huge company A+ with the BBB, completely safe and secure."
                                                    It is unlikely that this is all the "badge" will ultimately do. It's clear from ClickBank's initial rollout of this whole scheme that they intended the header (now changed to a "badge") to include a link to their marketplace that siphons away our traffic to their own site. After being forced to adjust their approach due to the backlash among their customers, they removed that, but they used language in their press release that leaves them the option to bring it back once they get everyone using the "badge," and they've chosen not to answer direct questions about whether they will or not.

                                                    I would assume clickbank would already know if they took all the affiliates traffic and money they would all leave, which means all of the vendors would leave, which means they wouldn't make any money. I don't think they are trying to go out of business, and I trust in the end everything will be good, or they'll see it's not working out and go back to normal.
                                                    Again, although you're a newcomer, you're as entitled to your views as the rest of us. But my view is not so rosy. I say this as someone who has been using ClickBank for years and used to be a huge fan, recommending them to anyone who asked. It's become clear that the leadership there has visions of becoming some kind of Amazon for digital products, and they've attempted to do stunningly unethical things for that purpose. The fact that they've had to dial it back for now due to the outraged response among their customers is not that reassuring. I don't see any reason to believe that the actual goal has changed, or that they stopped some of their unethical behavior (for the time being) for any other reason than the fact that they weren't getting away with doing it at such an aggressive speed.

                                                    You have to realize also that even if they make this whole thing work for them, that doesn't mean it will work for you and "everything will be good."

                                                    For all we know once it's all set up the affiliate will still be credited for any sales if the customer leaves the original offer through the badge.
                                                    Even if sales are credited, conversion rates are almost certain to plummet as soon as a customer leaves the original website. They would then need to click through a number of other pages and check out at least one additional offer before buying something.

                                                    I can tell you that if I was an affiliate, I sure as hell wouldn't want the traffic I send to an offer to be whisked away to some other site where I have no control over what they're presented, and I've had no chance to presell the other offers.

                                                    If you send someone to an offer sold on Amazon as an affiliate, and they don't buy it, you still get paid for anything they buy on Amazon if they start looking at other stuff, so it's definitely possible for them to do.
                                                    They could definitely implement the cookie itself. But with regard to how helpful that would be - i.e., whether people will actually buy other stuff like they do on Amazon - I find it dubious.

                                                    Amazon is a retail giant; they have a cutting edge marketplace; people are used to buying stuff there; their catalog contains just about everything you might want; they're experts in cross-selling and retargeting. These are traits that lend themselves towards people buying stuff other than what they were originally interested in, but ClickBank doesn't have them.

                                                    And yes I know Clickbank is not about to turn into Amazon. I don't think they're going to turn into anything personally I can't see anybody at all ever leaving someone's page and browsing clickbank and buying something there. I don't see that happening even one single time. I'm sure here and there people may click the badge and get curious, but they would instantly leave clickbank they wouldn't even browse it. I log into clickbank every day and I never even noticed it was a spot to shop until someone pointed it out to me.
                                                    As soon as someone clicks a link away from your site, your conversions will typically drop.

                                                    If clickbank screws their affiliates, then they're going to lose their whole entire business literally over night, so if they are that stupid then oh well, but I don't think everything is going to be as dooms day as everyone is making it seem.
                                                    I think your premise that the affiliates would leave overnight is misguided. If they were to supplant their affiliates, it would happen somewhat gradually as they increased their own traffic and increased how much they compete with their own affiliates. The number of affiliates who realize they're being screwed and leave would be roughly based on how successful ClickBank has already been at pulling the rug out from under them.

                                                    I couldn't imagine that little badge making any difference whatsoever, so that's not shocking to me. People are saying though that they will add stuff to the badge, like a link going back to clickbank, but I just can't imagine that making any difference either.
                                                    As I've mentioned, when ClickBank makes you put a link to their own "marketplace" on your website, they're doing so because they intend for people to use it. If that's not happening, they'll likely make changes until it does.

                                                    Everybody is very quick to assume clickbank wants to steal the affiliates traffic, but what if Clickbanks true plan is to become an affiliate for every product on clickbank and then drive traffic to their site, so anything someone buys through that traffic clickbank gets a huge commission. Then they would have motivation to drive their own traffic.
                                                    If they're driving traffic in a way that is based on marketing the actual products, they will be directly competing with affiliates, because affiliates drive traffic by marketing those products. The only way they don't compete with affiliates is by driving traffic more generally to "ClickBank, the place to buy digital stuff." I don't see that working for them.

                                                    I just think there's no reason to jump to crazy conclusions quite yet, but I am glad that people are upset and speaking out because they are making a difference.
                                                    Most of what has been discussed in this thread is rational analysis, not crazy conclusions. What ClickBank attempted to do is an established fact, the current situation (following their mea culpa about the initial version) is well understood, and predictions about where this is likely to be headed are coming from vendors and affiliates with a lot of combined ClickBank experience.

                                                    While I certainly don't think you should blindly accept what others tell you just because you're a newcomer, I do think a smart person who is new to something will recognize that the analysis of people with relevant experience is more likely to be accurate than their own.

                                                    If clickbank kept the header I would most likely take the extra time to learn this stuff on my own, but that badge, I can live with it. It looks good, and again, I just can't see that thing taking any traffic at all, and especially nothing noticeable. Maybe one random click out of like a million visitors.
                                                    I've addressed this previously, so I'll refer back to that.

                                                    Again, please understand that I'm not saying you shouldn't form your own opinions or express them. Any meaningful contribution to the discussion is welcome.
                                                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10418619].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Wayne
    Is there a way to block certain users on this forum, I've looked but can't find a way to do this? I'm getting tired of reading the same repeated posts over and over again. Would shorten this thread up considerably.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10413407].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
      Originally Posted by Wayne View Post

      Is there a way to block certain users on this forum, I've looked but can't find a way to do this? I'm getting tired of reading the same repeated posts over and over again. Would shorten this thread up considerably.
      When you see something you don't want to read, you simply scroll down instead of reading it.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10413421].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author trevord92
    Justin: your choice how much to rely on Clickbank or any other site.

    It's my understanding that they're offering (or soon to offer) a download via their site but it depends how much you trust them and how much more/less likely they are to get freeloaders. Judging by the coding issues for the trust buttons, it wouldn't be something I'd do personally.

    Concentrate more on selling your product than protecting it from illegal downloaders. If it's any good, it will almosy certainly get shared on sites. Some people weave in affiliate links inside the product to get money from sharers.

    Longer term, it depends whether this course of action strengthens or weakens Clickbank. My view is it will weaken them but I've been wrong about things before.

    Regardless of that, any leak on a sales page is bad news. Especially if affiliates and vendors don't get any commission from the leak!

    Any change to a sales page design may be positive, negative or neutral - no way to tell without testing. The trust badge is certainly a change and the way it's implemented it could change instantly because the main script to deliver it is held on a site that Clickbank control.

    Any change in the Clickbank marketplace is unlikely to be short term - too many vendors with too many other things to do in life for things like product descriptions to get amended to be consumer facing.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10413437].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
      Originally Posted by trevord92 View Post

      Justin: your choice how much to rely on Clickbank or any other site.

      It's my understanding that they're offering (or soon to offer) a download via their site but it depends how much you trust them and how much more/less likely they are to get freeloaders. Judging by the coding issues for the trust buttons, it wouldn't be something I'd do personally.

      Concentrate more on selling your product than protecting it from illegal downloaders. If it's any good, it will almosy certainly get shared on sites. Some people weave in affiliate links inside the product to get money from sharers.

      Longer term, it depends whether this course of action strengthens or weakens Clickbank. My view is it will weaken them but I've been wrong about things before.

      Regardless of that, any leak on a sales page is bad news. Especially if affiliates and vendors don't get any commission from the leak!

      Any change to a sales page design may be positive, negative or neutral - no way to tell without testing. The trust badge is certainly a change and the way it's implemented it could change instantly because the main script to deliver it is held on a site that Clickbank control.

      Any change in the Clickbank marketplace is unlikely to be short term - too many vendors with too many other things to do in life for things like product descriptions to get amended to be consumer facing.
      Yea, once my product is done I'll have to figure out how to deliver it. I just know for sure I don't want to deliver it the way I'm delivering my free one.

      I really hope everything turns out good with clickbank just because I don't really know what I'm doing but I know I can figure it all out with clickbank and finally be all set up and ready to go!

      I plan on having multiple products in the same niche and building a HUGE authority blog around it which I have started but I don't want to go too hardcore into it until I have my first product done so that I can just advertise my paid product, or my free one in exchange for e-mail, and then not offer any affiliate stuff besides in e-mails so I keep as much of my traffic as possible.

      If clickbank does flop out and turn into junk then I'll learn a new method with my newer products, and then I can take what I have on clickbank out of clickbank. I really just need a place to start.

      Everything you guys are saying makes sense though, it is messed up, sometimes companies get a new CEO and it's the worst thing that ever happened to the company.

      Some peple have a LOT of money, and insanely bad ideas, and everything they touch turns to sh..
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10413476].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author netmrktr
    We will certainly be avoiding ClickBank if this is true. Would likely move to JVZoo or better yet... and in house affiliate program!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415428].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author kursat
    I recently helped a client to get his product at Clickbank and I must say it is really getting harder each day. We had to redesign the sales page about 9 times and add and remove videos etc. The banner also was asked so I installed it - not sure what the product will do but I hope it was worth all the effort went into it.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10419058].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
    Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

    Hi Jon Patrick,

    While I can certainly appreciate the passion that is being brought to this discussion,
    Please don't patronize me.

    I cannot help when the answers that have been given are not deemed valid and then determined to be "unanswered". We have stated our intentions, our reasoning and the drivers behind this initiative within the links that I posted. Not accepting those responses will not change them.
    No, the questions below have not been answered:

    - How exactly did it come to be that ClickBank's payment partners (plural) supposedly began "requiring" ClickBank to do things which are damaging and invasive to your customers while being conveniently self-serving for ClickBank (in your goal of becoming a retail destination for consumers)? Did these payment companies actually approach you, or did ClickBank hatch this scheme and then approach the payment companies to provide a justification for it?

    - Did these supposed requirements from the payment companies actually include you forcing your customers to put your own brand at the top of their websites, stealing your customers' traffic with a link to your own "marketplace," and redirecting your customers' website addresses to pages on your own site? I would very much like to hear ClickBank specifically say the payment companies actually required you to do these things. The announcements from ClickBank simply implied this by saying the payment companies were requiring you to make changes, and then proceeding to announce these things.

    - ClickBank presented the concept of fraud moving online due to the new chipped credit cards as a catalyst for this situation. How do ClickBank's recent actions address online credit card fraud in any way?

    - ClickBank also presented the concept of buyers being confused about why they're seeing "ClickBank" on their card statements as a catalyst for this situation. But buyers pay on a ClickBank branded order form, receive order confirmation emails from ClickBank, and are told on our "Thank You" pages that their card statement will say "ClickBank." If some percentage of buyers are still confused after all of that, their bank/card company can easily find out what the charge was for during a chargeback investigation. And if this was still somehow a problem, there are many things ClickBank could do to address it before taking such damaging and invasive (and conveniently self-serving) actions against all of the vendors and affiliates who use your services. So assuming this is even a real problem, why did ClickBank choose the latter option instead, if not to further your own goal of becoming a retail destination for consumers?

    - Why would the payment companies want ClickBank to do things which don't address the issue of online credit card fraud and are not a rational solution to the supposedly rampant problem of buyers being confused when they see "ClickBank" on their card statements? Why should we believe that, as opposed to the obvious motive of ClickBank doing these things because you want to become a retail destination for consumers, as your website and social media are now saying?

    - How was ClickBank free to backtrack on things which were part of the initial version of this scheme if the supposed reason you were doing those things in the first place was that the payment companies were making you do them?

    - Did ClickBank or did ClickBank not have meetings prior to the rollout of this scheme in which these changes were conceived to move ClickBank towards the goal of becoming a retail destination for consumers?

    - In ClickBank's "apology" announcement, you said the IFRAME implementation will never be back. However, you did not say that putting a link on our sites to your own "marketplace" will never be back. You only said you won't do this with links that don't support attribution. Does this mean ClickBank may still try to put links on our sites that siphon away our traffic to your own "marketplace," causing our sales to decrease and replacing them with only a percentage commission on the sale of other people's products (assuming a sale even happens after visitors leave our sites)?

    - You have revealed that a handful of top inner-circle vendors were invited to ClickBank headquarters and that they accepted your current iteration of the header/badge. Were these vendors offered any perks as part of these discussions? ClickBank has also demanded that we all implement this before those inner-circle vendors, or you'll shut down our accounts. Why are you not forcing the top vendors to put this on their websites along with the rest of us? Does ClickBank believe your broader customer base of vendors and affiliates deserve to be guinea pigs while the top vendors sit back and see how it affects us before implementing it themselves?

    EDIT: I see that you said this in your latest post: "We recognize that some larger clients have more extensive web properties that they must alter as they typically sell many products from different pages. This drove the timelines we published. Membership in our Platinum program comes with many benefits."

    The handful of top vendors you're talking about have the increased resources and ability to implement changes far more easily than the rest of your customer base. I will also say that I've seen some platinum vendors who have very basic websites and a small number of products, while there are non-platinum vendors who have larger websites and more products. I agree with Jill Carpenter that this seems more likely to be about letting the platinum vendors sit back and watch how this plays out before being required to implement this on their own sites.

    This is why I strongly recommended reading the knowledge base article that I posted. PayPal is a Payment Facilitator, not a processor nor a retailer. As such, they proxy transactions on behalf of other "sub-merchants" against their own merchant account and therefore do have the ability to issue a refund.
    Please see my comment about how the term "payment processor" is used in the real world. I have used the term throughout the thread as it's used here on the forum and elsewhere in the IM community, which typically refers to companies like PayPal or any other service you can use to accept payments from your buyers, not as it's used in the banking industry.

    This misunderstanding is at the core of the confusion here. Reading and learning the facts behind the different types of companies would be useful.
    Many of the issues being discussed here do not revolve around the fact that ClickBank labels themselves a "retailer" as a matter of legal and accounting convenience, and there is no confusion about that, just an awareness of the fact that ClickBank is not actually a retailer.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10420632].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      Why are you not forcing the top vendors to put this on their websites along with the rest of us? Does ClickBank believe your broader customer base of vendors and affiliates deserve to be guinea pigs while the top vendors sit back and see how it affects us before implementing it themselves?
      Hehe. I addressed this in another thread (off topic area).

      My thought there was that if you are a top vendor, you should be the FIRST to implement these things because as a top vendor you are doing the most in traffic and sales. Would think the clamp down would involve getting the "heavies" on board first as ultimately they could cause the most damage with the numbers they do.

      But what do I know? (only what's been revealed publicly that I've seen)

      And should not the top vendors be setting the proper example for the rest to follow?

      Seems to me they are escaping this until after the big holiday rush.

      I'll add, why do they need extra time? If you are doing that well, one would think you have more back up support and resources to implement these changes quicker than the one man show.

      Just my own thoughts and observations.
      Signature

      "May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10420695].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author agmccall
    I wonder what would happen if the top vendors said "We are not going to do this". I would think that many of these top vendors could easily, much easier than the average vendor, move to another platform or even move everything in house, in about a week.

    I would also bet that if they are going to implement this "badge" clickbank is probably allowing them to write their own java script.

    These top vendors are top vendors because of hard work. They have tested, marketed, recruited affiliates, improved their products, and many more things to make their business successful. Clickbank had nothing to do with it.

    There are exceptions to every rule. The "Top" vendors will get the exceptions and the rest of us will pay the price.

    al
    Signature

    "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10422320].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
      Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

      I wonder what would happen if the top vendors said "We are not going to do this". I would think that many of these top vendors could easily, much easier than the average vendor, move to another platform or even move everything in house, in about a week.

      I would also bet that if they are going to implement this "badge" clickbank is probably allowing them to write their own java script.

      These top vendors are top vendors because of hard work. They have tested, marketed, recruited affiliates, improved their products, and many more things to make their business successful. Clickbank had nothing to do with it.

      There are exceptions to every rule. The "Top" vendors will get the exceptions and the rest of us will pay the price.

      al
      Try to become a top vendor instead of being jealous of the benefits of being one. There should definitely be benefits that come with being at the top.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10422374].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author trevord92
        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

        Try to become a top vendor instead of being jealous of the benefits of being one. There should definitely be benefits that come with being at the top.
        I didn't read that post as being jealous, just stating that top vendors get treated differently which happens in near enough every industry I'm aware of.

        In this case, the top vendors get the benefit of the hindsight as to how the trust badge affects the average site. If I was Clickbank I'd definitely want to keep them on board as the 80/20 rule doubtless applies to where their sales (and therefore income) are coming from.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10422391].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

        Try to become a top vendor instead of being jealous of the benefits of being one. There should definitely be benefits that come with being at the top.
        I'm sure the perception other members have of you would benefit more from not being this abrasive, especially as a relatively new member of the forum and someone who admittedly has no experience as a ClickBank vendor. You've demonstrated in your previous posts that you can express your views without using a "tone," although I've disagreed with the views themselves. I believe we're all more effective at communicating our thoughts to fellow members when we take care to be amicable. And lest you think I'm giving you a hard time, let me be clear that nobody is perfect about that, including myself.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10422622].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
          Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

          I'm sure the perception other members have of you would benefit more from not being this abrasive, especially as a relatively new member of the forum and someone who admittedly has no experience as a ClickBank vendor. You've demonstrated in your previous posts that you can express your views without using a "tone," although I've disagreed with the views themselves. I believe we're all more effective at communicating our thoughts to fellow members when we take care to be amicable. And lest you think I'm giving you a hard time, let me be clear that nobody is perfect about that, including myself.
          I didn't write it with a tone, but I can't help if someone reads it with one. I just think it's a much better frame of mind to want to be a top vendor instead of complaining about not being treated the same as the top vendors.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10422712].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
            Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

            I didn't write it with a tone, but I can't help if someone reads it with one. I just think it's a much better frame of mind to want to be a top vendor instead of complaining about not being treated the same as the top vendors.
            Fair enough, although when you start using words like "jealous" it's hard to read it any other way. To you point, I think we all want to be top sellers (whether we use ClickBank or another service to sell our products), but it's still possible to have legitimate concerns with disparate treatment between top vendors and the rest of ClickBank's customer base.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10422733].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author agmccall
        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

        Try to become a top vendor instead of being jealous of the benefits of being one. There should definitely be benefits that come with being at the top.
        I am not trying to become a top vendor. I am an affiliate. But, thank you for your concern.

        al
        Signature

        "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10424108].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
          Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

          I am not trying to become a top vendor. I am an affiliate. But, thank you for your concern.

          al
          You can be an affiliate that's learning how to become a vendor, and then you can sell your own stuff to your list for 100% commission, and you can make as many products as you want. And you can still be an affiliate. And other affiliates can sell your stuff. I just see it as huge potential money just sitting there if we don't use both sides of the coin.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10424130].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Michele Miller
            First off, I will never be using Clickbank again. After almost 14 years, that I was very happy with them, even their high percentage rate, I am now bowing out.

            If any company thinks they can get away with legal crap to take over the branding of my sites to benefit themselves, under a facade of bullshit they are sorely mistaken. There will be a mass exodus when the vendors and affiliates see what is really happening. If you are one who welcomes the changes, good for you! Really. Each to his/her own.

            All my buttons state Clickbank processes your credit card, all my download pages remind them, all my follow up auto-responders remind them. I rarely have a refund!!! Their BADGE aka as a BANNER and all that want it are welcome to it. Please remember, the badge is ONLY THE BEGINNING. Think before you get in too deep!

            Quite honestly it will be a pain in the ass to change all my payment buttons on "hundreds of pages" to something else, as it would be to implement their new "badge". (Was badge the best word they could come up with that sounded innocent enough that the uninformed wouldn't notice how shady a move it was?)

            I feel bad that my hardworking affiliates will lose out on sales due to Clickbanks's new "business move" and won't know how many vendors have chosen to leave the insanity.

            Good luck to all, whatever you decide.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10424756].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author agmccall
    I am interested in how this is going to pan out. The deadline for the average vendor is tomorrow 12/15. Just went to clickbank and went to the affiliate marketplace and started clicking on different products. I just picked randomly, from high gravity to no gravity. I went to approximately 30 different sales pages and saw the badge only once.

    al
    Signature

    "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10438780].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

      I am interested in how this is going to pan out. The deadline for the average vendor is tomorrow 12/15. Just went to clickbank and went to the affiliate marketplace and started clicking on different products. I just picked randomly, from high gravity to no gravity. I went to approximately 30 different sales pages and saw the badge only once.
      Just your luck to pick 29 "premium" vendors out of 30 random selections

      You raise an interesting point, Al.

      What happens come 16 Dec if 90% of ClickBank's non-premium vendors have NOT added the new badge to their sales pages?

      ClickBank has (purportedly) been working to "clean up" the offers in their marketplace for a couple of years now. Is this a new way to identify the undesirables so that they can finally eliminate a huge block of products en-masse?
      Signature

      Sid Hale
      Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10438825].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
        Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

        Just your luck to pick 29 "premium" vendors out of 30 random selections

        You raise an interesting point, Al.

        What happens come 16 Dec if 90% of ClickBank's non-premium vendors have NOT added the new badge to their sales pages?

        ClickBank has (purportedly) been working to "clean up" the offers in their marketplace for a couple of years now. Is this a new way to identify the undesirables so that they can finally eliminate a huge block of products en-masse?
        The badge only needs to be on pages with pay links not on every page. landing pages might not have the badge if they have no pay links. i have 12 sites like this for example. if you don't look carefully, you would miss the badge.

        Of course i have only added the badge because of this thread. i have NEVER received any official email telling me to add the badge, let alone by dec 15. i do not think i am the only vendor in this situation - and most vendors dont read this forum - so it seems likely a lot of vendors simply dont know.

        And the badge simply doesnt work on a lot of sites. there is a separate thread in the web design forum about implementing the badge that partly covers this. And there's another thread floating around discussing issues with wordpress. cb really ought to be addressing these, especially if they want people to add the badge right away.

        Regardless of whether the badge were a good idea (which I agree is debatable), cb appear to have problems with the technical implementation due to lack of testing (it's no good testing 4 million impressions if you only test with a few vendors). Moreover cb have messed up the roll out - how can you have a mandatory roll out when some (a lot?) vendors apparently dont know about it, and other vendors cant implement because technical Issues?
        Signature
        ClickBank Vendor?
        - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
        - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
        - Killer Graphics for Your Site
        SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10439408].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
          Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

          The badge only needs to be on pages with pay links not on every page. landing pages might not have the bagde ifthey have no pay links. i have 12 sites like this for example. if you don't look carefully you would miss the badge.
          4 out of the 5 offers I checked out were direct sales pages that went to payment processor page on the "buy now."

          In my personal experience, this seemed very normal. I would bet the majority have this set up currently. But obviously I have no way to know what the real numbers are.

          I think you are right in that a good amount of vendors have no clue about what is even happening. Clickbank may have to even just suspend those payment pages just to get their attention (which probably wouldn't fare well if that was the route.)
          Signature

          "May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10439428].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
            I know I am right.

            Last time I mentioned here in a thread that I didnt get cb's email, about half a dozen others piped up the same.

            Out of about 6 emails since this started, i've received 2. And it's not a spam folder issues - I've checked very carefully through my spam folder.

            I talk to a lot of vendors: many are unaware, or only dimly aware of this badge stuff - they didnt get the emails either.
            Signature
            ClickBank Vendor?
            - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
            - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
            - Killer Graphics for Your Site
            SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10439437].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
            If cb get aggressive in enforcement, they could simply make payment form refuse to appear unless the user has recently viewed a badge with the same vendir id.
            Signature
            ClickBank Vendor?
            - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
            - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
            - Killer Graphics for Your Site
            SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10439442].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
            Yep. I understood this from your previous posts in this thread...

            Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

            The badge only needs to be on pages with pay links not on every page. landing pages might not have the badge if they have no pay links. i have 12 sites like this for example. if you don't look carefully, you would miss the badge.
            But your affiliates only get 1 landing page per product.

            If you are sending affiliate clicks to a landing page with no buy button, I would expect that to adversely affect the number of affiliates who would even promote a link to your offer.

            Are you missing out on affiliate sales by having a "pre-sale" page as your landing page?

            Originally Posted by Jill Carpenter View Post

            4 out of the 5 offers I checked out were direct sales pages that went to payment processor page on the "buy now."

            In my personal experience, this seemed very normal. I would bet the majority have this set up currently. But obviously I have no way to know what the real numbers are.
            As Jill pointed out, you are the exception to the norm.

            The vast majority of vendors are using a direct selling model (especially if they want to attract affiliates to promote the page), and while she observed an 80% ratio of direct sales pages... I expect that would increase to 90% if she sampled 10 offers, and that the ratio would go up even more once the number of samples increased to 20+
            Signature

            Sid Hale
            Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10440004].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
              Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

              But your affiliates only get 1 landing page per product.
              CB's system only provides one landing page per account.

              With the right scripts (including my scripts) it is however possible to have multiple landing pages per product.

              In this case, the one you see in the marketplace would be the generic landing page (probably without a badge), and at least some of the ones when you click through from an affiliate might be the ones with the buy link, with the badge.

              Even without such scripts, a lot of vendors do this:

              Main Landing Page describing principal offer -> Second Page saying do you want principal offer, or a great deal (more $$$) with all these extras -> CB order form.

              The marketplace will list the main landing page, but the badge would only be required on the 2nd page.

              Such either way, a quick scan of the market place will probably miss some who have implemented the badge. (although I agree that many, perhaps even the majority haven't, implemented the badge, and may not even be aware of the badge issue).
              Signature
              ClickBank Vendor?
              - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
              - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
              - Killer Graphics for Your Site
              SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10440102].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
      Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

      I am interested in how this is going to pan out. The deadline for the average vendor is tomorrow 12/15. Just went to clickbank and went to the affiliate marketplace and started clicking on different products. I just picked randomly, from high gravity to no gravity. I went to approximately 30 different sales pages and saw the badge only once.

      al
      I have the badge on my products and sales have been normal.

      If there's any difference in conversion I don't think it's higher than 15%.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10438828].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
        ??????????????????

        Originally Posted by Pnigro View Post

        I have the badge on my products and sales have been normal.

        If there's any difference in conversion I don't think it's higher than 15%.

        I'm experiencing a complete disconnect here.

        I find it hard to believe that anyone would consider a 15% fluctuation in revenue to be "normal". I have to assume that if you don't find it to be alarming, then you are accustomed to this level of variation.

        If I'm wrong about this, you should be alarmed (i.e. 15% should pay most, if not all, of your income tax bill).

        Maybe it's just me, but if my assumption (above) is right, then your historical stats are already so variable as to make your observations since the change... meaningless.
        Signature

        Sid Hale
        Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10438857].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
          Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

          ??????????????????




          I'm experiencing a complete disconnect here.

          I find it hard to believe that anyone would consider a 15% fluctuation in revenue to be "normal". I have to assume that if you don't find it to be alarming, then you are accustomed to this level of variation.

          If I'm wrong about this, you should be alarmed (i.e. 15% should pay most, if not all, of your income tax bill).

          Maybe it's just me, but if my assumption (above) is right, then your historical stats are already so variable as to make your observations since the change... meaningless.
          My point is that I haven't experienced a drastic drop in sales since I installed the trust badge.

          Contrary to the iframe, it doesn't look like this trust badge is going to affect sales very much.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10439508].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author trevord92
            Originally Posted by Pnigro View Post

            My point is that I haven't experienced a drastic drop in sales since I installed the trust badge.
            Contrary to the iframe, it doesn't look like this trust badge is going to affect sales very much.
            Any change to a sales page affects it.

            Sometimes positively, sometimes negatively, sometimes no discernable effect.

            Congrats on not being adversely affected but that doesn't mean all the other vendors will be similarly affected. Always assuming they know they're supposed to put the badge on - the emails have been hit and miss, there's nothing to warn you when you log into your Clickbank account and the terms and conditions haven't changed to reflect this new requirement.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10439714].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
            That's what I thought you were saying, but...

            Originally Posted by Pnigro View Post

            My point is that I haven't experienced a drastic drop in sales since I installed the trust badge.

            Contrary to the iframe, it doesn't look like this trust badge is going to affect sales very much.
            I have a difficult time understanding how, in a world where most merchants work hard to get even 3% of their visitors to convert, you can be so dismissive of a 15% drop in your results.

            That change means that if you were bringing in $1000 per month, you would now be bringing in only $850 per month (i.e. from $12K per year down to $10,200 per year). $5K per month, suddenly becomes $4,250 per month. $10K becomes $8,500, etc.

            Regardless of the dollar amount, I think most people would consider a 15% drop in revenue to be a drastic change.
            Signature

            Sid Hale
            Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10439988].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
              Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

              I have a difficult time understanding how, in a world where most merchants work hard to get even 3% of their visitors to convert, you can be so dismissive of a 15% drop in your results.

              That change means that if you were bringing in $1000 per month, you would now be bringing in only $850 per month (i.e. from $12K per year down to $10,200 per year). $5K per month, suddenly becomes $4,250 per month. $10K becomes $8,500, etc.

              Regardless of the dollar amount, I think most people would consider a 15% drop in revenue to be a drastic change.
              I never said I had a 15% drop.

              I'm not split testing, I just installed the batch and that's it.

              If there is a drop, my guess is that it would not be higher than 15%, but that's probably the worst possible scenario.

              And I'm not dismissive of this, it's just that I have little to no choice. 95% of my revenue comes from Clickbank affiliates in Latin America. If I move to another platform I would be losing probably 50% or more of my sales.

              So if I had to choose between sticking to Clickbank (and losing 15%) versus moving to another platform and losing most of my sales, then the decision is obvious.

              Nobody likes this trust badge thing, but we already tried convincing Clickbank of letting it go and they didn't.

              We can either accept it or switch platform.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10440235].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author agmccall
        Originally Posted by Pnigro View Post

        I have the badge on my products and sales have been normal.

        If there's any difference in conversion I don't think it's higher than 15%.
        When I looked at the one badge that a vendor had installed, I did not see any reason that the conversion rate should change at all. But, then I thought, based on what it does. Which is just provide a simple popup that says you can get a money back guarantee on the product purchase, Why does it need to be java script.

        This "Badge" in its current incarnation does less than the required clickbank disclaimer in most sales pages footers or checkout pages. So why the required "Java Script" couldn't clickbank require this badge but allow vendors to put their own script in that clickbank does not have control over?

        Just a thought.

        While I am not a vendor, if this badge changes and adds unnecessary leaks to sales pages, which I believe will happen within the next few months, then I will stop promoting clickbank products. For me, I use pretty links so any changes I make will be simple.

        al
        Signature

        "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10438883].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
          I went in and randomly hit 5 offers, funny how one had this - which is sometimes just a marketing ploy, but had to wonder if it is that in this particular time.

          This offer will be ending forever on December 15th, 2015.
          No offer had the new badge.

          For anyone wanting to see what the badge entails, Clickbank offers this page here:

          https://support.clickbank.com/entrie...k-Trust-Badge-

          Here's the thing.

          The actual order pages have so much clickbank gobbledygoop on them already that I am honestly not getting why there needs to be more of the same on the original sites.

          Sites even already had added footer information or some kind of clickbank symbol:

          ClickBank is the retailer of products on this site. CLICKBANK® is a registered trademark of Click Sales, Inc., a Delaware corporation located at 917 S. Lusk Street, Suite 200, Boise Idaho, 83706, USA and used by permission. ClickBank's role as retailer does not constitute an endorsement, approval or review of these products or any claim, statement or opinion used in promotion of these products.
          You know, Amazon requires a disclaimer to be put on your site, but they don't make me put any javascript extra thing on my sites.

          What am I missing here?

          Honestly, the addition of this graphic - as simple and harmless as it looks - would add me no extra assurance as a buyer on any of these pages I saw. The only thing I could picture it doing was getting even more branding out on Clickbank.
          Signature

          "May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10439284].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
        Boy, I really did experience a disconnect!!!

        When you said...

        Originally Posted by Pnigro View Post

        If there's any difference in conversion I don't think it's higher than 15%.
        I assumed that you were actually measuring your results from before/after adding the badge.

        Silly me.

        Originally Posted by Pnigro

        I never said I had a 15% drop.

        I'm not split testing, I just installed the batch and that's it.

        If there is a drop, my guess is that it would not be higher than 15%, but that's probably the worst possible scenario.
        There's no need to split test... just compare total sales since you installed the badge to the number of sales for the same length of time before you made the change. Surely you have that information available.

        Since you aren't measuring, what information have you based your guess on, and how can you predict with any level of confidence that it won't exceed that amount?
        Signature

        Sid Hale
        Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10440607].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
          Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

          Since you aren't measuring, what information have you based your guess on, and how can you predict with any level of confidence that it won't exceed that amount?
          Daily sales.

          For the last 7 days (since I installed the badge) they have remained the same, a little over $100 per day.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10440643].message }}
      • Originally Posted by Pnigro View Post

        I have the badge on my products and sales have been normal.

        If there's any difference in conversion I don't think it's higher than 15%.
        With me the slightest drop in sales is unacceptable. I've spent of lot of time and money in maximizing my sales pages for the best conversions, not forgetting split testing, only for Clickbank to force their badge on my sales pages.

        If it's not benefiting us vendors like increasing conversions then it should be optional to put it on our sales pages. Those vendors who feel its cool to have Clickbank all over their sales page can input the badge.

        I mean if sales/refunds are normal then the badge is pretty useless apart from giving Clickbank more exposure at the expense of our hard earned traffic.
        Signature

        Website Design | App Creation | Video Marketing | Social Media | Web Hosting

        ==> SlashTouch.Com

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10440730].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
          Originally Posted by Makabongwe Maseko View Post

          With me the slightest drop in sales is unacceptable. I've spent of lot of time and money in maximizing my sales pages for the best conversions, not forgetting split testing, only for Clickbank to force their badge on my sales pages.

          If it's not benefiting us vendors like increasing conversions then it should be optional to put it on our sales pages. Those vendors who feel its cool to have Clickbank all over their sales page can input the badge.

          I mean if sales/refunds are normal then the badge is pretty useless apart from giving Clickbank more exposure at the expense of our hard earned traffic.
          They're not likely to change their mind, so you should start looking for alternatives to Clickbank.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10440749].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Zodiax
    I heard that clickbank may be putting ronald mcdonald badges somewhere, just look at my avatar, I'm the perfect candidate for mcDonald's advertising.
    Signature

    'I hated every minute of training, but I said, 'Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion'
    -Muhammad Ali

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10439489].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Wayne
    I just went to 10 random sites that they have listed in their consumer marketplace, and 7 out of the 10 sites did have the trust badge on them. It will probably take a while for clickbank to get around to checking all of the sites.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10440239].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
      Originally Posted by Pnigro View Post


      And I'm not dismissive of this, it's just that I have little to no choice. 95% of my revenue comes from Clickbank affiliates in Latin America. If I move to another platform I would be losing probably 50% or more of my sales.
      I am not understanding why vendors would not make an effort to reach out to their affiliates now.

      It is very easy to plop something on an affiliate tools page to an autoresponder that is just "important updates for affiliates" so you have direct contact with them.

      I'm not privy to what information vendors have exactly within clickbank - IE if they are able to contact affiliates within the system.

      Dang, Clickbank even gives you a nice page on how to find affiliates (and steal them from your competitors):
      Finding Affiliates to Promote Your Product | ClickBank

      There are choices, just some will require a bit more work if you didn't have certain things in place to begin with.
      Signature

      "May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10440269].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
        Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post


        In this case, the one you see in the marketplace would be the generic landing page (probably without a badge), and at least some of the ones when you click through from an affiliate might be the ones with the buy link, with the badge.
        If I were your affiliate, I'd be a bit peeved to be sent to view a "sample" page only later to find out that it was not the full representation of the real page my traffic would be seeing.

        Not saying that is right or wrong to do, just saying I personally wouldn't like it.
        Signature

        "May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10440274].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
          Originally Posted by Jill Carpenter View Post

          If I were your affiliate, I'd be a bit peeved to be sent to view a "sample" page only later to find out that it was not the full representation of the real page my traffic would be seeing.

          Not saying that is right or wrong to do, just saying I personally wouldn't like it.
          You misunderstand and have it precisely backwards.

          Affiliates can see and (choose between) every page that there traffic is seeing, for example by clicking on their own links, or by choosing between landing pages when they place links on their websites.

          However they wont see all the possible landing pages by browsing clickbank.com.

          If i was an affiliate i would be happy, rather than annoyed, if i get a choice of landing pages. As that way i can choose the landing page that suits me best... for example if i run a women's health site, my affiliate links to a diet product might go a landing page with images and testimonials of ordinary women, whereas if i run a sports site my affiliate links for the same product might go a landing page orientated towards athletes.
          Signature
          ClickBank Vendor?
          - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
          - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
          - Killer Graphics for Your Site
          SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10440500].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author trevord92
        Originally Posted by Jill Carpenter View Post

        I'm not privy to what information vendors have exactly within clickbank - IE if they are able to contact affiliates within the system.
        There's nothing I'm aware of within the Clickbank system to be able to contact affiliates.

        You can find their hoplink from your stats and contact them if they're a vendor as well.

        Otherwise you can do some searching and hope to find their site - less easy with the newer hoplinks.

        Some vendors have an affiliate page and build a list but by no means all of them keep in touch with affiliates, plus it's a fine line between keeping affiliates updated and pestering them so much that they unsubscribe.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10440495].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Dhira
    This is so stupid. I sell a few products on there.
    And I kept them there because of their one click upsell (Pytch) platform which when they added it, i thought was a step forward for them.

    Anyone know other vendors that have a 1 click upsell - does JVZoo?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10440509].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
    What a long thread...

    I'm willing to bet that if clickbank doesn't start showing more gratitude and respect to their vendors and affiliates soon, they will be bankrupt within 5 years tops.

    There are other networks out there willing to go the extra mile and provide fast, friendly and great support to vendors and affiliates.

    I don't know what is going on with clickbank but lately they've been bossing their affiliates and vendors around as if we were their employees... as if we needed them, when in reality it's us affiliates and vendors that make clickbank what it is, without us clickbank is NOTHING.

    I miss the good old clickbank, I read somewhere they had been bought by some new owners which would mean the management and staff is mostly new, that would explain why they lack gratitude these days.

    Clickbank went ahead with the badge, we all know the story.

    What I'm wondering now is... Is clickbank directly competing with vendors as well?

    Godaddy had an incident a few years ago an insider job where someone was taking all the good domains, I wonder if a similar insider vendor-job is going on with clickbank.

    What is there to stop clickbank from directly competing with vendors with an advantage where they can easily play around with the gravity figures from the backend.

    It might not be a direct competition (unless they are bold enough to do that), it could for instance be a family member or friend of someone working at clickbank.

    There's a vendor on clickbank that has many products and this vendor has been blocking most affiliate links, most of you might know the sites in question, how come clickbank doesn't stop a vendor with such high gravity from tricking all the affiliates even after complaints? How come they let these things happen? Are they behind these products?

    Makes you wonder...
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10441190].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author MilesBaker
    ClickBank just announced the following:

    Over the past few weeks we have received some feedback regarding the ClickBank Trust Badge as it appears on mobile devices.

    As of today, the ClickBank Trust Badge has been officially removed from all pages rendered on mobile devices. We're going back to the drawing board with the Trust Badge as it relates to mobile devices and we will update you when we have a better solution that works for all of us.

    We have appreciated hearing your feedback regarding this issue and look forward to working closely with you in the coming new year.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10444349].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
      ^

      That's great.

      The badge looks just fine on desktop, but on mobile it was too big and intrusive.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10444394].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
      Originally Posted by MilesBaker View Post

      ClickBank just announced the following:
      I didn't get the mass email, AGAIN (yes I carefully checked spam folder). Despite having 3 accounts, and getting CB sales notifications & support tickets just fine.

      Other vendors have reported similar experiences with CB's previous mass emails.

      Whatever you think of the badge, they need to sort this out - this is basic stuff.
      Signature
      ClickBank Vendor?
      - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
      - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
      - Killer Graphics for Your Site
      SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10445558].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      Originally Posted by Ardentify View Post

      Is the trust badge removed from all sites or on mobile devices only?
      What part didn't you understand ?????

      Originally Posted by MilesBaker View Post

      As of today, the ClickBank Trust Badge has been officially removed from all pages rendered on mobile devices. We're going back to the drawing board with the Trust Badge as it relates to mobile devices and we will update you when we have a better solution that works for all of us.
      Signature

      Sid Hale
      Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10447661].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
        Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

        What part didn't you understand ?????
        It sounds like it's removed from mobile devices only, or is it removed alltogether?
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10447683].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Augustinus
    Somehow I do not like idea that from a first touch people will know that this product is associated with clickbank but also it can have some positive sides like you said
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10444951].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author StevenUK
    A problem I see, is that even though everything is stated in UK £'s, Clickbank is converting it to $$'s on the order form, and I am sure this is putting some buyers of from making a purchase.

    It's a psychological thing, it makes the transaction look for more than it really is, plus, it makes a UK buyer think they are not buying from a UK vendor, and definitely IS off-putting to buyers.

    Clickbank need to sort that out. If a buyer is from the UK, then it should just state the price in £'s, end of story, and not confuse the matter by converting it to the $ equivalent.

    It was the same on eBay years ago, buyers just would not purchase if they thought a sale was from overseas. Clickbank have the same problem.

    A product that used to fly when I sold it on PayPal, now sells far less on Clickbank. Using ClickBank has definitely affected conversions by around 50% I would say.
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10445639].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
      Originally Posted by StevenUK View Post

      A problem I see, is that even though everything is stated in UK £'s, Clickbank is converting it to $$'s on the order form, and I am sure this is putting some buyers of from making a purchase.

      It's a psychological thing, it makes the transaction look for more than it really is, plus, it makes a UK buyer think they are not buying from a UK vendor, and definitely IS off-putting to buyers.

      Clickbank need to sort that out. If a buyer is from the UK, then it should just state the price in £'s, end of story, and not confuse the matter by converting it to the $ equivalent.

      It was the same on eBay years ago, buyers just would not purchase if they thought a sale was from overseas. Clickbank have the same problem.

      A product that used to fly when I sold it on PayPal, now sells far less on Clickbank. Using ClickBank has definitely affected conversions by around 50% I would say.
      The problem is that the vendor on his pitch page needs to mention the price.

      Vendors ought have the option to be able to set the price separately for each major currency, e.g. something costs $25 in the US, £20 in the UK - and Clickbank automatically direct the customer to the right order form based on their location. UK buyers will pay more for their products, if they only ever in UK pounds.

      Also for those vendors who do simply set 1 price in US $, there ought to be some sort of Javascript that they can use which translates the price (and nothing more) into pounds, euros, or whatever - so the local price can be displayed within the vendor's pitch page.

      These kinds of features would be a lot more productive use of CB's time & resources than investing in badges and a retail portal which will never sell as much as the vendors do directly. And if the vendors make more money, then CB would make more too.
      Signature
      ClickBank Vendor?
      - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
      - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
      - Killer Graphics for Your Site
      SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10445772].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
        Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

        Also for those vendors who do simply set 1 price in US $, there ought to be some sort of Javascript that they can use which translates the price (and nothing more) into pounds, euros, or whatever - so the local price can be displayed within the vendor's pitch page.

        These kinds of features would be a lot more productive use of CB's time & resources than investing in badges and a retail portal which will never sell as much as the vendors do directly. And if the vendors make more money, then CB would make more too.
        That javascript idea that translates into different currencies is genius!

        It will increase convertions without a doubt.

        Why don't you create a product that does this easily, I'd be one of the first to purchase it.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10446024].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
          The exchange rates that cb uses, vary from time to time, so it's hard for a third party script to convert cb prices between currencies in the same rates as cb is currently using.

          Cb needs to provide this js themselves.
          Signature
          ClickBank Vendor?
          - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
          - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
          - Killer Graphics for Your Site
          SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10446551].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
            Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

            The exchange rates that cb uses, vary from time to time, so it's hard for a third party script to convert cb prices between currencies in the same rates as cb is currently using.

            Cb needs to provide this js themselves.
            You are correct, I guess you mean the value added tax customers need to pay depending on where they are located.

            However the price is fixed on all sales pages the value added tax shows up on the CB order form only and this is currently a working concept. So a javascript that changes say $37 to the local currency within the text area of the sales page where price is mentioned would be enough. And the currency symbol or definition next to it.

            I think it's worth testing, the only potential problem I see with this is the text styling, many sales pages use css and other styling for the price font and color and those that use images would need to make some changes.

            Have you seen some of those top get paid to take survey sites on CB?

            They are doing something similar a local flag appears near the top of the sales page.

            There is so much room for improvement, yes I agree clickbank should focus on ways to increase sales for vendors. The trust badge doesn't do that.

            Clickbank should start a private forum where the top vendors, affiliates and clickbank staff can brainstorm and discuss ways to improve convertions and increase sales. It could be new and unique ideas or ideas currently being used by other websites.

            Not sure that would go as planned either, might be a conflict in interest. While the vendors and affiliates want to increase sales clickbanks idea of "improvement" might be increasing brand awareness which is pretty selfish and doesn't help vendors and affiliates at all. Trust badge is a good example of this.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10447618].message }}
      • Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post


        These kinds of features would be a lot more productive use of CB's time & resources than investing in badges and a retail portal which will never sell as much as the vendors do directly. And if the vendors make more money, then CB would make more too.
        Good point, great idea.
        Signature

        Website Design | App Creation | Video Marketing | Social Media | Web Hosting

        ==> SlashTouch.Com

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10447254].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author mario23
    I have 3 products in clickbank, I really have to think about this one, thanks for the heads up.
    Signature
    Format All Your Ebooks and Reports In Minutes…Make Them Super Sexy...CLICK HERE
    Create Amazing Digital Products In Minutes That Makes Up to $300 to $1000 a week…CLICK HERE
    Create Killer Sales letters in 25 Minutes That Sell Any Product Fast...CLICK HERE
    Find Super Money Niches In Minutes and Start Making Money Today…CLICK HERE
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10445661].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
    Is the trust badge removed from all sites or on mobile devices only?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10447623].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
    It doesn't just "sound like it"... that's exactly what it says.
    Signature

    Sid Hale
    Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10447685].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
      Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

      It doesn't just "sound like it"... that's exactly what it says.
      I wanted to be sure about it, better to double check than assume.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10447689].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
        Hey everybody check this out.

        Double Your Dating Ebook

        That's by a very big internet marketer and scroll down to the bottom.

        He has it where it says Clickbank Trusted Secure like the badge says but it's at the very bottom of his page, and when you click on it more information pops up.

        Is this way of doing the trust badge only available for the big timers?
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10450599].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author nolan59
          yes, except that the site has added css targeting the badge in order to stop it from floating on the page and to put it at the bottom of the page instead of at the fixed top of the page, which is against the Clickbank terms
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10450689].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author nolan59
            So as a test I have left one of my small products at Clickbank to see what happens. Throughout I have complied with all the requirements that Clickbank set out which included the iframe as well as now the trust badge. Each of these were added to the site on the day that they were announced as a requirement, just like a good vendor should.

            HERE are my sales on this account for 2015

            Note that you will see two sales blocked out with yellow. These are where I was the affiliate for another vendor so are not sales of my own product.

            As you can see sales were ticking along nicely with 87 sales between Jan and Aug 2015 (average of 10 per month)

            September (when the initial iframe was announced) sales were on par with the norm at 10 for the month.

            In the 3 month since this BS, sales have dropped dramatically:
            Oct = 2 sales
            Nov = 1 sale
            Dec = 3 sales

            Just for clarity sake - no changes were made to the sales page at any stage during the year save for the CB badges

            Traffic to this website has remained constant throughout the year as well.

            In other words this product has lost 80% of it's sales since Clickbank introduced their trust badge.

            So I have lost out on at least $500 worth of income as a result (8 sales x 3 months x minimum of $21 per sale).

            Thank you for taking food out of my family's mouth to satisfy your bizarre ideas Clickbank.

            That is my experience, let's hear from some other vendors.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10450759].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Wayne
              Originally Posted by nolan59 View Post

              So as a test I have left one of my small products at Clickbank to see what happens. Throughout I have complied with all the requirements that Clickbank set out which included the iframe as well as now the trust badge. Each of these were added to the site on the day that they were announced as a requirement, just like a good vendor should.

              HERE are my sales on this account for 2015

              Note that you will see two sales blocked out with yellow. These are where I was the affiliate for another vendor so are not sales of my own product.

              As you can see sales were ticking along nicely with 87 sales between Jan and Aug 2015 (average of 10 per month)

              September (when the initial iframe was announced) sales were on par with the norm at 10 for the month.

              In the 3 month since this BS, sales have dropped dramatically:
              Oct = 2 sales
              Nov = 1 sale
              Dec = 3 sales

              Just for clarity sake - no changes were made to the sales page at any stage during the year save for the CB badges

              Traffic to this website has remained constant throughout the year as well.

              In other words this product has lost 80% of it's sales since Clickbank introduced their trust badge.

              So I have lost out on at least $500 worth of income as a result (8 sales x 3 months x minimum of $21 per sale).

              Thank you for taking food out of my family's mouth to satisfy your bizarre ideas Clickbank.

              That is my experience, let's hear from some other vendors.
              When I look at your chart, it looks like your sales started slowing in May from what they were earlier in the year (5 sales each month for May, June and July). I don't see any data here to prove that the trust badge had anything to do with lowering your sales.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10451382].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author nolan59
                Originally Posted by Wayne View Post

                When I look at your chart, it looks like your sales started slowing in May from what they were earlier in the year (5 sales each month for May, June and July). I don't see any data here to prove that the trust badge had anything to do with lowering your sales.
                those are traditionally our slower months, sales were back up again in Aug & Sept
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10451958].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author greenbay92
              Originally Posted by nolan59 View Post

              HERE are my sales on this account for 2015
              That pic reminds me of sales trends in three of my own CB accounts this year. These accounts are over 9 years old and have seen far better days (right up to September).

              My issue is not with the banner but with sales tracking and EPC that have dwindled without reason in the past 3 months. While the former has been discussed ad nauseum, I feel that CB hasn't addressed the latter problem convincingly enough.

              I remember the years when CB used to make changes in the background and, despite initial reservations, they'd work just fine. While CB's tracking system has had its flaws, it was never a cause for concern as it become in the past couple months.

              So, after a good run (full time income) with CB for 9 years, falling EPC and tracking problems forced me to seek alternatives elsewhere.

              I still have a couple products within the CB ecosystem for which I've yet to find an alternative platform. I'm in a wait-and-watch mode regarding them as I'm hoping that CB's higher ups get their priorities (and tracking) in place. Either way, I feel it's prudent for people not to be too reliant on CB because it can be a lesson learned hard.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10453013].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
              [DELETED]
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10453082].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
                [DELETED]
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10453262].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
                  Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

                  With absolutely zero knowledge of Nolan's product (or even his niche market), you are in no position to judge whether his sales are "good enough".



                  You have no idea what his traffic sources are, whether or not they are targeted sources, nor how well his offer is converting.



                  Your judgement with regard to the performance of Nolan's product is totally off-topic for this thread, and your solicitation for Nolan to PM you appears to be a thinly veiled attempt at advertising your services.
                  What services are you talking about?

                  I'm trying to help the guy out FOR FREE.

                  You are one rude guy aren't you?

                  Stop trying to take an aim at me for no reason at all, if you want I can help you out too your websites look like they haven't been updated since 1995.

                  The amount of posts you have in a forum does not determine your exprience level in this field, and yes the amount of targetted traffic and the sales presentation is what matters when it comes to making money with ebooks. So of course that data will be useful in determining what's wrong with Nolan's efforts.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10454039].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
                    Originally Posted by Ardentify View Post

                    What services are you talking about?

                    I'm trying to help the guy out FOR FREE.

                    You are one rude guy aren't you?

                    Stop trying to take an aim at me for no reason at all, if you want I can help you out too your websites look like they haven't been updated since 1995.

                    The amount of posts you have in a forum does not determine your exprience level in this field, and yes the amount of targetted traffic and the sales presentation is what matters when it comes to making money with ebooks. So of course that data will be useful in determining what's wrong with Nolan's efforts.
                    I'm having issues with backtracking this conversation, but I think I have a gist of it.

                    Ardentify, Let me begin by saying I'm confident Sid can take care of his own sites and likely isn't looking for any help.

                    You are a new member, and as such you will be judged by us old farts here. No getting around it. With your minimal post count I could see how your (could be innocent) offer for help could be quickly misconstrued - especially if OP didn't actually ask for help.

                    I'll push along with Sid in that "It's not really the topic of this thread" and we don't know anything about you and what your true intentions are based on lack of posts and/or references to judge you on.

                    Being a marketing and MMO forum there are numerous nefarious people here.

                    Being helpful = good.
                    Trying to be too helpful when we don't have a clue about you or your past = highly suspect.

                    Signature

                    "May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"

                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10454090].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
                      Originally Posted by Jill Carpenter View Post

                      I'm having issues with backtracking this conversation, but I think I have a gist of it.

                      Ardentify, Let me begin by saying I'm confident Sid can take care of his own sites and likely isn't looking for any help.

                      You are a new member, and as such you will be judged by us old farts here. No getting around it. With your minimal post count I could see how your (could be innocent) offer for help could be quickly misconstrued - especially if OP didn't actually ask for help.

                      I'll push along with Sid in that "It's not really the topic of this thread" and we don't know anything about you and what your true intentions are based on lack of posts and/or references to judge you on.

                      Being a marketing and MMO forum there are numerous nefarious people here.

                      Being helpful = good.
                      Trying to be too helpful when we don't have a clue about you or your past = highly suspect.

                      Agreed it's a bit off topic, that's why I mentioned he should contact me by PM.

                      Just trying to help him out that's all, $3k profit in 7 months and having a family to feed he deserves some urgent help.

                      Sounds like there are many here trying to sell things, wasn't aware of that.
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10454100].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
              Originally Posted by nolan59 View Post

              So as a test I have left one of my small products at Clickbank to see what happens. Throughout I have complied with all the requirements that Clickbank set out which included the iframe as well as now the trust badge. Each of these were added to the site on the day that they were announced as a requirement, just like a good vendor should.

              HERE are my sales on this account for 2015

              Note that you will see two sales blocked out with yellow. These are where I was the affiliate for another vendor so are not sales of my own product.

              As you can see sales were ticking along nicely with 87 sales between Jan and Aug 2015 (average of 10 per month)

              September (when the initial iframe was announced) sales were on par with the norm at 10 for the month.

              In the 3 month since this BS, sales have dropped dramatically:
              Oct = 2 sales
              Nov = 1 sale
              Dec = 3 sales

              Just for clarity sake - no changes were made to the sales page at any stage during the year save for the CB badges

              Traffic to this website has remained constant throughout the year as well.

              In other words this product has lost 80% of it's sales since Clickbank introduced their trust badge.

              So I have lost out on at least $500 worth of income as a result (8 sales x 3 months x minimum of $21 per sale).

              Thank you for taking food out of my family's mouth to satisfy your bizarre ideas Clickbank.

              That is my experience, let's hear from some other vendors.
              The trust badge did not affect your sales 80%.

              Sorry, but there's something else going on with your product.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10453299].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
                To Clickbank:

                Two of my friends got a message that they accounts are flagged. But we all made sure we had the trust badge installed before December 15th.

                Surely this must be an error message?
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10453394].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author nolan59
                  It is of course full possible that the drop in sales was coincidental, nothing is impossible, but at this point I have no other explanation for it other that the changes by Clickbank. Why else would a product that had been ticking along just fine, at a constant pace for around 2 years suddenly stop like that. When that happens you always have to ask yourself what has changed.

                  In this case all the same affiliates are still sending traffic to the site. I am still sending the same amount of traffic to the site. The sales page has not changed. The only change in the ecosystem of this product are the CB changes. I strongly suspect that my drop is not a coincidence or an isolated case.

                  That is why I want other vendors to post their results here too. That way we can soon see what affect this has had in broader terms.

                  Having said that, I do want to point out that I have posted my results here in order to show Clickbank what my results have been. Not because I am trying to be nasty or have it in for them or anything like that.

                  Up to when these changes happened I was extremely happy with CB. In fact a week before these changes I launched a new product through their system.

                  It is in everybody's best interest that CB does well, but only if it is a win win.

                  If my dramatic drop in sales is a coincidence then so be it, but we will only know when other vendors share their experience.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10453567].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
                    WTF IS WRONG WITH CLICKBANK???

                    Now this has really pissed me off.

                    Bunch of idiots running this company.

                    So my friend decided to contact Clickbank asking why his account has been flagged, even though he implemented the Trust Badge way before December 15th, and this is Clickbank's reply:

                    "Thank you for your inquiry! If you’re a vendor and you have already double checked that you have implemented the Trust Badge on all pages with a payment link, you can go ahead and disregard this email. We apologize for any confusion this may have caused, but to reassure that everyone has been clearly aware of the importance of implementing the trust badge, we have resent the email out to everyone."

                    Wtf is this bullshit?

                    Yeah, let's go ahead and tell legitimate vendors that their account is flagged, so that they become "aware of the importance of implementing the trust badge".

                    Are they too damn lazy to actually VERIFY if vendors have implemented the badge?

                    This company...wow.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10453659].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
                    Originally Posted by nolan59 View Post

                    It is of course full possible that the drop in sales was coincidental, nothing is impossible, but at this point I have no other explanation for it other that the changes by Clickbank. Why else would a product that had been ticking along just fine, at a constant pace for around 2 years suddenly stop like that. When that happens you always have to ask yourself what has changed.

                    In this case all the same affiliates are still sending traffic to the site. I am still sending the same amount of traffic to the site. The sales page has not changed. The only change in the ecosystem of this product are the CB changes. I strongly suspect that my drop is not a coincidence or an isolated case.

                    That is why I want other vendors to post their results here too. That way we can soon see what affect this has had in broader terms.

                    Having said that, I do want to point out that I have posted my results here in order to show Clickbank what my results have been. Not because I am trying to be nasty or have it in for them or anything like that.

                    Up to when these changes happened I was extremely happy with CB. In fact a week before these changes I launched a new product through their system.

                    It is in everybody's best interest that CB does well, but only if it is a win win.

                    If my dramatic drop in sales is a coincidence then so be it, but we will only know when other vendors share their experience.
                    I don't know about the badge effect but I moved some of my products away from clickbank a while ago and these are the results:
                    - Refunds down from around 20% to 3% (niche where refunds are very common)
                    - Sales increased by 300%
                    - More active affiliates.
                    - Less direct sales and more affiliate generated sales (better tracking?)

                    I've had great success by moving high refund products away from CB.

                    But I owe this mainly to my super affiliates that I've become friends with, they knew about the move and changed the links on their websites right away which enabled new affiliates to find the products on the other network.

                    Refunds are too high on clickbank and what I'm selling isn't even IM related, the customers most likely don't know about the easy clickbank refunds. I have a difficult time understanding why the refund rate is so high on clickbank, perhaps they give a refund even when the customer isn't asking for one.

                    Should change name to ClickRefund.com, now that would be funny
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10454140].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
                      They don't have to do a full manual check. all they need to do is write a script which logs loading the javascript for the badge before loading the order form.

                      If the script sees a particular vendor/product gets a lot of order form loads without prior badge loads, they should then manual check.

                      A manual check is still required, because sometimes the javacsript may not load even when intended to.

                      Oh and they need to ignore affiliate links that go direct to the order form, since they've said in this thread that badges on such pages arent required.
                      Signature
                      ClickBank Vendor?
                      - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
                      - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
                      - Killer Graphics for Your Site
                      SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10454288].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                      Originally Posted by Ardentify View Post

                      I don't know about the badge effect but I moved some of my products away from clickbank a while ago and these are the results:
                      - Refunds down from around 20% to 3% (niche where refunds are very common)
                      - Sales increased by 300%
                      - More active affiliates.
                      - Less direct sales and more affiliate generated sales (better tracking?)

                      I've had great success by moving high refund products away from CB.

                      But I owe this mainly to my super affiliates that I've become friends with, they knew about the move and changed the links on their websites right away which enabled new affiliates to find the products on the other network.

                      Refunds are too high on clickbank and what I'm selling isn't even IM related, the customers most likely don't know about the easy clickbank refunds. I have a difficult time understanding why the refund rate is so high on clickbank, perhaps they give a refund even when the customer isn't asking for one.

                      Should change name to ClickRefund.com, now that would be funny
                      What other network do you use besides clickbank, or is it just like paypal or something?

                      Also, how does having affiliates work without a company like clickbank? How do they trust that you'll pay them and how do you even know to pay them etc?

                      In my niche, all of the other vendors with the big ticket items do not sell through clickbank but I don't understand how affiliates trust getting paid without a middle man like clickbank or how you would even be able to have an affiliate and give them a special link and everything lmao.

                      It's why Clickbank is so appealing to me, everything just seems insanely confusing without Clickbank.
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10454610].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
                        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                        What other network do you use besides clickbank, or is it just like paypal or something?

                        Also, how does having affiliates work without a company like clickbank? How do they trust that you'll pay them and how do you even know to pay them etc?

                        In my niche, all of the other vendors with the big ticket items do not sell through clickbank but I don't understand how affiliates trust getting paid without a middle man like clickbank or how you would even be able to have an affiliate and give them a special link and everything lmao.

                        It's why Clickbank is so appealing to me, everything just seems insanely confusing without Clickbank.
                        If you read my post carefully I did mention "network".

                        You have 3 options:

                        1) Sell directly through paypal or some other processor, wihtout affiliate program.
                        This one is a really bad option as you won't have affiliates sending you traffic.

                        2) Sell through paypal or some other processor, but have a script/software that lets you run your own affiliate program where the script would take care of all the calculations for you and you'd just have to pay the affiliates through paypal yourself once a week.

                        Not only is it time consuming to pay affiliates yourself, there is a major downside to having your own in-house affiliate program.

                        You will be the one in control over the stats and tracking 100%, affiliates can't trust you with an in-house affliate program.

                        Say an affiliate makes $50K you could hire a programmer or edit the figures so it looks like the affiliate has just made $50 instead of the $50K.

                        I'm not saying you'd do that, but exprienced affiliates know about such issues and would rather prefer a 3rd party to track it all, so they don't get tricked.

                        Many affiliates have been tricked by in-house affiliate programs they either got paid less or they didn't get paid at all, so they will think twice before promoting another one, especially when it's not a large brand such as amazon.


                        3) You sell through an affiliate network such as clickbank.
                        This one is actually your only option.

                        It will provide the independent 3rd party tracking and payments just like clickbank.

                        Sure you might need to give away 10% in fees, but it's worth it as you'll make up for it through additional affiliates sending you sales.

                        Another downside of just using paypal is the refunds, if you get many refunds you might face some issues with paypal where they will give you a hard time limiting account and holding onto the money for many months.
                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10454997].message }}
                        • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
                          This is basically sound, Ardentify, but I don't totally agree...

                          Originally Posted by Ardentify View Post

                          2) Sell through paypal or some other processor, but have a script/software that lets you run your own affiliate program where the script would take care of all the calculations for you and you'd just have to pay the affiliates through paypal yourself once a week.

                          Not only is it time consuming to pay affiliates yourself, there is a major downside to having your own in-house affiliate program.

                          You will be the one in control over the stats and tracking 100%, affiliates can't trust you with an in-house affliate program.
                          There are affiliate management scripts available that require NO (zero) time for the payment of affiliates, as the script itself manages those payments automatically.

                          Affiliates regularly DO trust in-house affiliate programs to manage affiliate management/tracking - as long as the vendor is trustworthy. In fact, many of the more well known vendors DO use an in-house affiliate management script rather than listing their products with one of the affiliate networks.

                          Many affiliates have been tricked by in-house affiliate programs they either got paid less or they didn't get paid at all, so they will think twice before promoting another one, especially when it's not a large brand such as amazon.
                          There are many threads on this forum where affiliates have raised similar issues with regard to some of the affiliate networks.

                          I submit that the problem, in either case, arises when an affiliate blindly promotes a vendor's products solely based on commission rate, conversion ratio, EPC, etc., without actually knowing the product and/or the vendor being promoted.


                          3) You sell through an affiliate network such as clickbank.
                          This one is actually your only option.

                          It will provide the independent 3rd party tracking and payments just like clickbank.

                          Sure you might need to give away 10% in fees, but it's worth it as you'll make up for it through additional affiliates sending you sales.
                          Besides the fact that these are the network's affiliates and not your own, listing your products with an affiliate network is no guarantee that the network's affiliates will promote your product.

                          Again, there are numerous threads on this forum to indicate that listing on an affiliate network doesn't magically open the doors to increased sales, and that affiliate recruitment is still necessary.

                          If you're going to be recruiting your own affiliates, anyway, why automatically relegate a percentage of sales to an affiliate network to cover their additional fees?
                          Signature

                          Sid Hale
                          Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10455073].message }}
                        • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                          Originally Posted by Ardentify View Post

                          If you read my post carefully I did mention "network".

                          You have 3 options:

                          1) Sell directly through paypal or some other processor, wihtout affiliate program.
                          This one is a really bad option as you won't have affiliates sending you traffic.

                          2) Sell through paypal or some other processor, but have a script/software that lets you run your own affiliate program where the script would take care of all the calculations for you and you'd just have to pay the affiliates through paypal yourself once a week.

                          Not only is it time consuming to pay affiliates yourself, there is a major downside to having your own in-house affiliate program.

                          You will be the one in control over the stats and tracking 100%, affiliates can't trust you with an in-house affliate program.

                          Say an affiliate makes $50K you could hire a programmer or edit the figures so it looks like the affiliate has just made $50 instead of the $50K.

                          I'm not saying you'd do that, but exprienced affiliates know about such issues and would rather prefer a 3rd party to track it all, so they don't get tricked.

                          Many affiliates have been tricked by in-house affiliate programs they either got paid less or they didn't get paid at all, so they will think twice before promoting another one, especially when it's not a large brand such as amazon.


                          3) You sell through an affiliate network such as clickbank.
                          This one is actually your only option.

                          It will provide the independent 3rd party tracking and payments just like clickbank.

                          Sure you might need to give away 10% in fees, but it's worth it as you'll make up for it through additional affiliates sending you sales.

                          Another downside of just using paypal is the refunds, if you get many refunds you might face some issues with paypal where they will give you a hard time limiting account and holding onto the money for many months.
                          Yes I was wondering what network you use if not clickbank and you say option 3 is the only option and it's to use something like clickbank. Okay, if not clickbank then what network do you use?
                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10457243].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
                  Originally Posted by Pnigro View Post

                  To Clickbank:

                  Two of my friends got a message that they accounts are flagged. But we all made sure we had the trust badge installed before December 15th.

                  Surely this must be an error message?
                  Perhaps all the vendors got flagged?

                  Would be easier from their perspective to just email everyone than to go through thousands of websites one by one.

                  Did you get flagged?
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10454079].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
            Originally Posted by nolan59 View Post

            yes, except that the site has added css targeting the badge in order to stop it from floating on the page and to put it at the bottom of the page instead of at the fixed top of the page, which is against the Clickbank terms
            If all it takes is extra CSS and it's not just a benefit of being at the top then couldn't everyone just do the badge in the same way?

            Eben Pagan is a very serious business man I couldn't picture him trying to go against clickbank in that way, he would just drop clickbank all together.

            That particular product of his, about 10 years ago was bringing in 20 million dollars in revenue per year, and he did not use clickbank back then.

            I think he just recently threw it in clickbank to see if affiliates could get some extra sales, now he goes by his real name (has been for years now) and basically teaches how he tricked millions of men into thinking they were getting some sort of value but they were only getting sugar water lmao! (not his words but, that's basically what he's saying without saying it)
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10451539].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author ClickBank
              Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

              If all it takes is extra CSS and it's not just a benefit of being at the top then couldn't everyone just do the badge in the same way?
              Hi Justin,

              That particular implementation violates our policy and is being addressed. We do not permit vendors to modify our placement or look and feel via CSS to override how the badge is displayed. Sites that are found outside of compliance will be notified and changes will be required to bring the site back into compliance.

              Thanks,
              The ClickBank Team
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10451645].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                Originally Posted by ClickBank View Post

                Hi Justin,

                That particular implementation violates our policy and is being addressed. We do not permit vendors to modify our placement or look and feel via CSS to override how the badge is displayed. Sites that are found outside of compliance will be notified and changes will be required to bring the site back into compliance.

                Thanks,
                The ClickBank Team
                Oh okay, I know he is a big time internet marketer outside of Clickbank so I didn't think he would try to weasel around the badge lmao. I just figured the higher players maybe had more options or something when I saw how the badge was set up on his page.

                I have another question if you see this. I noticed another big vendor that has just a video on his sales page, and after like 20 minutes the buy button pops up. I noticed there was no badge, but I didn't want to wait 20 min to see if it would show up with the buy button, but my question is:

                For people that do have a sales page set up in that way, can they set it up so the badge pops up once the buy button pops up?

                It's not how I'm going to set up my sales page so it's not really relevant to me but I'm just curious about it.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10451697].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author TheRankedReview
    I feel like it's going to benefit Clickbank more than anything. The Clickbank branding will probably deter certain customers away, which sucks for us as affiliates.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10450739].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
      Originally Posted by TheRankedReview View Post

      I feel like it's going to benefit Clickbank more than anything. The Clickbank branding will probably deter certain customers away, which sucks for us as affiliates.
      Maybe in the IM niche, but in any other niche, what kind of customer would ever care to go to clickbank?

      "I need to treat my diabetes. Hmmm, clickbank? What's that? Actually, who gives a crap about my diabetes, I'm going to go to Clickbank instead because logic doesn't exist in my brain in any way, shape, or form. Thank God Clickbank added that badge so I was able to find it even though it's completely irrelevant to me in every possible way!"

      Not happening.

      With this type of logic, then Clickbank mentioning the Better Business Bureau in the badge is actually going to ruin clickbanks evil attempt to steal traffic because everyone is going to see the BBB so they're going to go to the BBB's website.

      Clickbanks badge steals traffic from the site for being there, then BBB being badged onto the badge is going to steal the clickbank traffic.

      Never going to happen.

      Idk about it affecting sales, but stealing traffic, nope, never going to happen unless your customers are brainless and they just click random crap for no reason.

      The MOST that will happen is a customer will click the badge and think, hmmmmm I didn't know if I could trust this before, now I know I can, and then they will continue on looking through the sales page deciding if they want to buy or not.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10451548].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author agmccall
        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post


        Clickbanks badge steals traffic from the site for being there, then BBB being badged onto the badge is going to steal the clickbank traffic.

        Never going to happen.

        Idk about it affecting sales, but stealing traffic, nope, never going to happen unless your customers are brainless and they just click random crap for no reason.
        This has been discussed numerous times in this thread and some still do not seem to be able to grasp what is going on. In its current form, you are right, no one will click over to clickbank. But, this badge is java script, remember. And, this can be changed by clickbank at any time. So, in the future when someone who is on your diabetes cure sales page clicks on the badge and all of a sudden the popup says, "You Might Also be Interested In" then three links to other diabetes products are there.

        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

        The MOST that will happen is a customer will click the badge and think, hmmmmm I didn't know if I could trust this before, now I know I can, and then they will continue on looking through the sales page deciding if they want to buy or not.
        You really think that people looking at a badge that anyone with 1 ounce of photoshop skill could recreate in about 5 minutes will instill a sense of trust?

        And like you said
        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

        Idk about it affecting sales, but stealing traffic, nope, never going to happen unless your customers are brainless and they just click random crap for no reason.
        do you really think people are brainless to want to get more information or look at similar products.

        al
        Signature

        "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10451731].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
          Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

          This has been discussed numerous times in this thread and some still do not seem to be able to grasp what is going on. In its current form, you are right, no one will click over to clickbank. But, this badge is java script, remember. And, this can be changed by clickbank at any time. So, in the future when someone who is on your diabetes cure sales page clicks on the badge and all of a sudden the popup says, "You Might Also be Interested In" then three links to other diabetes products are there.


          You really think that people looking at a badge that anyone with 1 ounce of photoshop skill could recreate in about 5 minutes will instill a sense of trust?

          And like you said do you really think people are brainless to want to get more information or look at similar products.

          al
          You made everyone's concerns make a lot more sense to me because yes, if it was set up like that I could see someone leaving one offer and buying from a competitor.

          That could be a good thing for vendors, but that would for sure have potential to screw affiliates pretty badly. I suppose when and if that happens, when we sell as an affiliate we'll just have to make sure we're selling the best option so people don't leave the offer for the best one, and that could be really bad for some vendors, but maybe that's a good thing because it will force vendors to step up on quality so people don't leave their offer for another one.

          I'm not a fan of the badge, but it's not enough to make me look elsewhere, I will still be using clickbank as an affiliate and I will still be selling my first product as a vendor through Clickbank.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10451796].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author technomatters
    Thats a great news. Anyhow people see clickbank brand logo on checkout page.I see some vendors not listed in clickbank network but showing their JV page as a clickbank vendor. I got surprise that time. Nice work.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10451775].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author RyanLB
    With all of the drama in recent months I would start finding sources outside of Clickbank...they just seem to be implementing things that I can't agree with.
    Signature

    I'm a Freelance Copywriter that helps Agencies, Startups and Businesses Educate Their Audience and Grow Sales
    Skype Me: r.boze
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10453910].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
      Originally Posted by RyanLB View Post

      With all of the drama in recent months I would start finding sources outside of Clickbank...they just seem to be implementing things that I can't agree with.
      At the end of the day all that really matters is much much money we're making. If we can make more outside of Clickbank then it's best to not use Clickbank, and if we make the most using Clickbank, then it's better to stay with Clickbank.

      I'm pretty sure vendors can even just make another sales page and not use Clickbank and still keep the clickbank one for the clickbank affiliates but I'm not sure about that at all.

      I know if people publish a book on kindle and choose the 70% royalties they can't sell the book anywhere else, idk if clickbank is like that or not, but I don't think it is.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10453963].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
        Originally Posted by Jill Carpenter View Post


        Clickbank may have to even just suspend those payment pages just to get their attention (which probably wouldn't fare well if that was the route.)
        Originally Posted by Pnigro View Post

        [B]

        Yeah, let's go ahead and tell legitimate vendors that their account is flagged, so that they become "aware of the importance of implementing the trust badge".

        Are they too damn lazy to actually VERIFY if vendors have implemented the badge?

        This company...wow.
        I'm feeling psychic.

        lol
        Signature

        "May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10453981].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

        At the end of the day all that really matters is much much money we're making. If we can make more outside of Clickbank then it's best to not use Clickbank, and if we make the most using Clickbank, then it's better to stay with Clickbank.

        I'm pretty sure vendors can even just make another sales page and not use Clickbank and still keep the clickbank one for the clickbank affiliates but I'm not sure about that at all.

        I know if people publish a book on kindle and choose the 70% royalties they can't sell the book anywhere else, idk if clickbank is like that or not, but I don't think it is.
        Justin you can sell the same ebook on as many affiliate networks as you want, it's nothing exclusive which is the case with amazon.

        It's a good idea to spread the risk by not putting all your eggs in one basket.

        The real issue is figuring out which network deserves the best domain. If you have .com .net and .org etc. (.com being best)
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10454087].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jana Graff
      Originally Posted by RyanLB View Post

      With all of the drama in recent months I would start finding sources outside of Clickbank...they just seem to be implementing things that I can't agree with.
      JV Zoo or do you have another solution?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10464135].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author stackman
    I agree with those proposing that Clickbank users seek an alternative such as PayPal.

    I have (had) been with Clickbank since almost the beginning and offered it as my only payment method for years. Then decided to offer PayPal as well as Authorize.net as alternative payment methods. My sales immediately increased by about 300%. Clickbank quickly became a secondary source, used primarily by buyers with foreign bank credit cards and buyers who failed security for the other two methods.

    Therefore, simply dropping Clickbank recently when all this badge crapola started was an easy decision. And affiliates through Clickbank were never a significant part of my business. Good luck Clickbank, but don't look for me coming crawling back.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10456151].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
      Originally Posted by stackman View Post

      I agree with those proposing that Clickbank users seek an alternative such as PayPal.

      I have (had) been with Clickbank since almost the beginning and offered it as my only payment method for years. Then decided to offer PayPal as well as Authorize.net as alternative payment methods. My sales immediately increased by about 300%. Clickbank quickly became a secondary source, used primarily by buyers with foreign bank credit cards and buyers who failed security for the other two methods.

      Therefore, simply dropping Clickbank recently when all this badge crapola started was an easy decision. And affiliates through Clickbank were never a significant part of my business. Good luck Clickbank, but don't look for me coming crawling back.
      Are you in the IM niche though? I could see an IM product suffering on clickbank since all imers know about clickbank, but I don't see how any other niche could possibly be affected by 300%
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10457262].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
        [DELETED]
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10457278].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author myob
          @Justin,

          Besides some protection from liability issues, there are tremendous tax advantages and many other benefits for forming an LLC whether as a vendor or affiliate.

          And as a vendor, Clickbank relieves much of the headaches of the required paperwork for accounting such as retail tax/VAT, 1099 or equivalent, regulatory compliance, etc.

          However, you really need to consult with a tax professional who is competent in corporate law to find the best solution for your situation. Getting such critical information in a public marketing forum is not recommended.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10457331].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
            [DELETED]
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10457411].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
              Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

              I more or less want to know if I put a product on Clickbank, and I don't have an LLC, can people sue me for everything I've got plus some like in the case if I started a lawn care company and didn't have an LLC.
              If you're running a business and selling a product or service of any kind, you're open to lawsuits. Forming an LLC allows you to insulate yourself from monetary judgments by making your business a distinct and separate legal entity. This means if your business is sued, your personal finances and possessions aren't at risk.

              For this separation to be accepted in court, your business's finances must actually be separate from your own. This means no personal expenses on your business card or from your business account (no "commingling of funds"). You receive money from the business in the form of "draws" or you pay yourself as an employee. These draws or payments should be clearly designated as such with some simple bookkeeping, and not just appear as random withdrawals from your business account.

              This stuff applies regardless of whether or not you use a service like ClickBank. You're running a business, with everything that entails. Using ClickBank doesn't change that. Most of what you need to know can be learned easily, but you will have to learn it. It would be helpful to either talk with a professional about this or spend some time learning about it online.

              I really just want to get things going and figure out the rest as I go along, but I don't want to end up in a horrible situation from just not knowing every little thing there is to know about running a business.
              You can figure it out as you go along, but the sooner the better.

              I know it's not a requirement to have an LLC to sell with Clickbank just like it's not a requirement to have an LLC to start a lawn care company. BUT starting a lawn care company without having an LLC would be insanely stupid, is that also true when selling through Clickbank, like would selling through Clickbank without having an LLC be a major mistake or nothing to worry about?
              See above. Whether you use ClickBank or not, you're still running a business.

              I'm not at any stage in my business to be going out talking to professionals about this that's why I'm asking here in a forum full of people that sell on Clickbank and know if an LLC would matter or not from first hand experience.
              Many if not most people who use ClickBank won't have the answers you're looking for. They just slap a product up and hope for the best. You can't go by someone else's first hand experience, because while they might not have run into any problems yet, that doesn't mean you won't. Most lawn care services don't get sued, but that doesn't mean yours won't, and that's why you form an LLC.

              I would recommend asking a question like this on a law or accounting forum instead of an internet marketing forum. Find out what the law actually says, and you'll be in a much better position to make the right decisions.

              I'll also mention that talking to professionals doesn't have to cost a lot of money. It's not like a question like this requires a five-hour discussion or anything.

              I just don't want to throw my first product up on Clickbank and then all of a sudden find out I'm somehow getting sued by someone over some small little thing I didn't even know about. I'm not paranoid over people copying my ideas or anything that's not a big deal to me, I just want to make sure I will be safe selling my first product on clickbank without having an LLC or having stuff tradmarked or being recognized as a corporation or whatever, to me that's all stuff to learn but I want to know if I will be okay selling on Clickbank without doing or knowing any of that stuff.
              You'll be open to lawsuits and copyright/trademark issues just like any other business. Using ClickBank doesn't protect you from this. A court will very easily see that you are the one who created the product, created and hosted the website, convinced people to buy the product, delivered the product after the sale, and provided primary support to customers after the sale. They aren't going to shift liability over to ClickBank because ClickBank is the "retailer."

              Please note that I'm not an attorney, but this is just common sense. In a lawsuit concerning your product, website, marketing, etc., you will be liable - not ClickBank.

              This goes back to my previous posts about understanding exactly what benefits ClickBank does and does not offer. If you're looking for someone to take all the business stuff off your plate, you need to understand that ClickBank simply does not do that. They provide certain limited benefits, and in my view those benefits are outweighed by their recent unethical behavior and the direction they are heading with their company.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10458531].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                If you're running a business and selling a product or service of any kind, you're open to lawsuits. Forming an LLC allows you to insulate yourself from monetary judgments by making your business a distinct and separate legal entity. This means if your business is sued, your personal finances and possessions aren't at risk.

                For this separation to be accepted in court, your business's finances must actually be separate from your own. This means no personal expenses on your business card or from your business account (no "commingling of funds"). You receive money from the business in the form of "draws" or you pay yourself as an employee. These draws or payments should be clearly designated as such with some simple bookkeeping, and not just appear as random withdrawals from your business account.

                This stuff applies regardless of whether or not you use a service like ClickBank. You're running a business, with everything that entails. Using ClickBank doesn't change that. Most of what you need to know can be learned easily, but you will have to learn it. It would be helpful to either talk with a professional about this or spend some time learning about it online.



                You can figure it out as you go along, but the sooner the better.



                See above. Whether you use ClickBank or not, you're still running a business.



                Many if not most people who use ClickBank won't have the answers you're looking for. They just slap a product up and hope for the best. You can't go by someone else's first hand experience, because while they might not have run into any problems yet, that doesn't mean you won't. Most lawn care services don't get sued, but that doesn't mean yours won't, and that's why you form an LLC.

                I would recommend asking a question like this on a law or accounting forum instead of an internet marketing forum. Find out what the law actually says, and you'll be in a much better position to make the right decisions.

                I'll also mention that talking to professionals doesn't have to cost a lot of money. It's not like a question like this requires a five-hour discussion or anything.



                You'll be open to lawsuits and copyright/trademark issues just like any other business. Using ClickBank doesn't protect you from this. A court will very easily see that you are the one who created the product, created and hosted the website, convinced people to buy the product, delivered the product after the sale, and provided primary support to customers after the sale. They aren't going to shift liability over to ClickBank because ClickBank is the "retailer."

                Please note that I'm not an attorney, but this is just common sense. In a lawsuit concerning your product, website, marketing, etc., you will be liable - not ClickBank.

                This goes back to my previous posts about understanding exactly what benefits ClickBank does and does not offer. If you're looking for someone to take all the business stuff off your plate, you need to understand that ClickBank simply does not do that. They provide certain limited benefits, and in my view those benefits are outweighed by their recent unethical behavior and the direction they are heading with their company.
                Thanks for your reply. I don't understand a lot of what you're saying because I don't know a thing about finances, but I do get that I need an LLC which sucks.

                I was unsure about if I needed one with Clickbank because selling ebooks on Amazon there's no reason for one so I wouldn't really say it's common sense but I could see it feeling like common sense to some people.

                When selling digital products, what could someone even sue me for? Couldn't I just put in a disclaimer at the beginning saying something like "by reading any further you agree that you are solely responsible for the use or misuse of this information" or something like that?

                Because with a lawn care company you could have a worker run the mower into someones house, you could jack up someones grass somehow, blow all their mosh all over the place, you could have a worker break into someone's house and rob them, there's all sorts of things that could happen, so to me it's common sense to have an LLC if you own a company like that, but with a digital product, what could someone even sue me for?

                All the big names in my niche have LLC, but they also all have employees and they don't only do business online they give seminars and stuff, but when doing business purely online with no employees, no physical products, no seminars or anything like that, am I really at risk without having an LLC?

                Sorry I'm more or less just typing out my thoughts, not meaning to derail the conversation about the Clickbank badge.

                But yea, thanks again I'll have to dig into google a bit and see what I find.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10458750].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                  Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                  When selling digital products, what could someone even sue me for? Couldn't I just put in a disclaimer at the beginning saying something like "by reading any further you agree that you are solely responsible for the use or misuse of this information" or something like that?
                  You can (and should) use a disclaimer. But someone can still sue you. Not just customers, but anyone you ever hire to do any task, any business or platform whose services you use, etc. There are lots of people out there who can think up "wrongs" that you wouldn't predict being sued for. And anybody can file a lawsuit, regardless of whether they have a good case or not.

                  Having an LLC and knowing how to pay yourself without "commingling of funds" (so that your business is genuinely a separate entity) is just a basic line of defense against legal problems that could destroy you. It's also helpful for accounting purposes. And other businesspeople and companies who aren't part of the ClickBank ecosystem, many of whom could be very useful to form relationships with, will take you more seriously with a registered company.

                  Honestly, the sooner you embrace doing these little things (not all at once, but as you have a need to do them) and not looking at them as things to be avoided, the better off you'll be. Most of it is easy, and you'll be wondering why you were so worried about it.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10458813].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                    Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                    You can (and should) use a disclaimer. But someone can still sue you. Not just customers, but anyone you ever hire to do any task, any business or platform whose services you use, etc. There are lots of people out there who can think up "wrongs" that you wouldn't predict being sued for. And anybody can file a lawsuit, regardless of whether they have a good case or not.

                    Having an LLC and knowing how to pay yourself without "commingling of funds" (so that your business is genuinely a separate entity) is just a basic line of defense against legal problems that could destroy you. It's also helpful for accounting purposes. And other businesspeople and companies who aren't part of the ClickBank ecosystem, many of whom could be very useful to form relationships with, will take you more seriously with a registered company.

                    Honestly, the sooner you embrace doing these little things (not all at once, but as you have a need to do them) and not looking at them as things to be avoided, the better off you'll be. Most of it is easy, and you'll be wondering why you were so worried about it.
                    Okay thank you. Looks like I'll have to put on my big boy pants and start learning some stuff but man am I ever confused. So I will need a new bank account then I'm guessing, and then I have to pay myself? Lol that's weird. Does my money get taxed twice once from my business and then again from what I pay myself from the business?

                    I think I over think things but oh well, learning all this stuff will be annoying but once I know it all I'll just feel even more confident, safe, and legit.

                    Now I understand why people have business partners when it seems like the business partner is useless, but they are probably doing all this legal stuff. Man, I just want to go to sleep now or crawl under a rock or something lol.

                    Who knows, maybe learning all this stuff will give me the knowledge and confidence to feel comfortable taking it one step further and setting up everything without Clickbank because I would much rather not have that Clickbank badge on my site anyways, but I don't know, all of this stuff since finding this thread has highly demotivated me, but I know in the end I will figure everything out.

                    Thanks for helping me out.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10458866].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Wayne
    If you're selling through Paypal or some other processor, how do you handle sales and VAT taxes?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10456928].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      Originally Posted by Wayne View Post

      If you're selling through Paypal or some other processor, how do you handle sales and VAT taxes?
      Paypal has settings for both Domestic and International Sales Tax Rates under :

      Profile -> My Selling Tools ->. Sales Tax (must be logged into Paypal)

      Official EU VAT Tax Rates can be found here:

      http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs...t_rates_en.pdf

      Tax Reporting documents can be retrieved from Paypal under:

      History -> Tax Documents (must be logged into Paypal)

      One-time setup of the 28 separate VAT rates is all that is required to have Paypal collect VAT taxes on your EU sales.
      Signature

      Sid Hale
      Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10456980].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
        Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

        Paypal has settings for both Domestic and International Sales Tax Rates under :

        Profile -> My Selling Tools ->. Sales Tax (must be logged into Paypal)

        Official EU VAT Tax Rates can be found here:

        http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs...t_rates_en.pdf

        Tax Reporting documents can be retrieved from Paypal under:

        History -> Tax Documents (must be logged into Paypal)

        One-time setup of the 28 separate VAT rates is all that is required to have Paypal collect VAT taxes on your EU sales.
        Doesnt really that much unless you are already vat registered.

        If you are say a uk business and sell thru cb (or another similar retailer), then you do not need to register for vat and do vat returns unless your european revenue exceeds 81000 pounds (and cb sales do not count towards this limit since cb is in the usa and they are your customer, not the end user).

        However if you become the retailer, thru paypal, then if you sell any b2c downloads to europe then you have to register foR vat moss, or with 28 countries individually, even if you only sell 1 copy. Moreover omce you register for vat, you need to do it for all business transactions in europe.
        Signature
        ClickBank Vendor?
        - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
        - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
        - Killer Graphics for Your Site
        SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10457328].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
          Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

          However if you become the retailer, thru paypal, then if you sell any b2c downloads to europe then you have to register foR vat moss, or with 28 countries individually, even if you only sell 1 copy. Moreover omce you register for vat, you need to do it for all business transactions in europe.
          I understand, Sunil.

          I was responding specifically to Wayne's question (i.e. how to handle VAT when selling through Paypal)
          Signature

          Sid Hale
          Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10457472].message }}
  • The good thing is that Clickbank is not the only game in town and it's time to look at other options! And if you are a Clickbank competitor this is your opportunity to do the write thing and take some of their business.
    Signature

    Join Next Live Mastermind Zoominar 100% Real World Secrets to Get Up And Running. Are you Stuck? Don’t miss it www.MonthlyMastermind.org
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10459156].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
      Originally Posted by HelpingYouBeAnExpert View Post

      The good thing is that Clickbank is not the only game in town and it's time to look at other options! And if you are a Clickbank competitor this is your opportunity to do the write thing and take some of their business.
      I keep hearing people say Clickbank isn't the only game in town but nobody will give examples of any other company similar to Clickbank. Really just paypal or JVzoo is all I've heard, but to me idk enough to not use a middle man, and JVzoo just looks like such a crappy website and seems geared towards IM products only, so it really seems like Clickbank is the only game in town unless you have some other suggestion?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10460156].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author agmccall
        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

        I keep hearing people say Clickbank isn't the only game in town but nobody will give examples of any other company similar to Clickbank. Really just paypal or JVzoo is all I've heard, but to me idk enough to not use a middle man, and JVzoo just looks like such a crappy website and seems geared towards IM products only, so it really seems like Clickbank is the only game in town unless you have some other suggestion?
        I guess you really have not looked at JVzoo that closely here is a link to their marketplace JVZoo Consumer Marketplace - JVZoo.com you will see that there are many categories. Also there is warrior plus. All you have to do is ask and I am sure they will add any category you want.

        You can also google "Affiliate Networks for Digital products" or something similar and you will find quite a few options other than clickbank.

        al
        Signature

        "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10460176].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
          Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

          I guess you really have not looked at JVzoo that closely here is a link to their marketplace JVZoo Consumer Marketplace - JVZoo.com you will see that there are many categories. Also there is warrior plus. All you have to do is ask and I am sure they will add any category you want.

          You can also google "Affiliate Networks for Digital products" or something similar and you will find quite a few options other than clickbank.

          al
          Looked at my niche in JVzoo and there's not one person of relevance there, so I won't put my stuff there either, and if I have to dig around google to find something similar to Clickbank then it's not going to be as good as Clickbank.

          I can agree that figuring out everything on your own would be the best way to go, but for people that need the middle man, clickbank is in my eyes the only game in town.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10460400].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
            Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

            I can agree that figuring out everything on your own would be the best way to go, but for people that need the middle man, clickbank is in my eyes the only game in town.
            There's ShareASale, CJ, AffiliateWire, etc.

            I can also tell you as someone who has been a vendor for years, with hundreds of thousands of dollars in sales to date, that using ClickBank doesn't save you from having to figure things out on your own.

            You still have to research your market. You still have to create your product. You still have to create and host your website. You still have to convince people to buy from you. You still have to deliver your product to your customers. You still have to protect against piracy (to the extent that it's possible to do so). You still have to provide support to your customers. You still have to keep books. You still have to file taxes. You still have to deal with the possibility of legal problems. You still have to engage with people/companies in your niche and recruit worthwhile affiliates. You still have to figure out how to drive your own traffic so you're not entirely dependent on affiliates. Etc.

            When it comes down to it, most of the things involved in running your business are things you're going to have to figure out (with the help of Google, forums, etc.) whether you use ClickBank or not.

            ClickBank processes the sale (other companies will do that for you also) and they manage affiliates (again, other companies will do that for you also.) They're not a magic "business stuff" eraser. And considering the direction they're taking their company, I would absolutely not depend on them if I was launching a new product today.

            I would maybe sign up with them and collect some extra affiliate sales by using a script on my site that shows the ClickBank buy button and "Badge" only when the script detects that a visitor arrived on my site through a ClickBank hoplink. But they would not be at the center of my business.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10461503].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
              Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

              There's ShareASale, CJ, AffiliateWire, etc.

              I can also tell you as someone who has been a vendor for years, with hundreds of thousands of dollars in sales to date, that using ClickBank doesn't save you from having to figure things out on your own.

              You still have to research your market. You still have to create your product. You still have to create and host your website. You still have to convince people to buy from you. You still have to deliver your product to your customers. You still have to protect against piracy (to the extent that it's possible to do so). You still have to provide support to your customers. You still have to keep books. You still have to file taxes. You still have to deal with the possibility of legal problems. You still have to engage with people/companies in your niche and recruit worthwhile affiliates. You still have to figure out how to drive your own traffic so you're not entirely dependent on affiliates. Etc.

              When it comes down to it, most of the things involved in running your business are things you're going to have to figure out (with the help of Google, forums, etc.) whether you use ClickBank or not.

              ClickBank processes the sale (other companies will do that for you also) and they manage affiliates (again, other companies will do that for you also.) They're not a magic "business stuff" eraser. And considering the direction they're taking their company, I would absolutely not depend on them if I was launching a new product today.

              I would maybe sign up with them and collect some extra affiliate sales by using a script on my site that shows the ClickBank buy button and "Badge" only when the script detects that a visitor arrived on my site through a ClickBank hoplink. But they would not be at the center of my business.
              Obviously they are not going to start and run my business for me. They don't appeal to me for the things I still have to do, it's the things that I DON'T have to do that I like.

              CJ won't work for me for my niche I'm pretty sure and it would limit my affiliate potential if it did work because not all affiliates have a website. I'll check out the other 2 if Clickbank turns into a company I don't want to use, but if they were even close to as good as clickbank I would have already heard of them.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10461660].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                Obviously they are not going to start and run my business for me. They don't appeal to me for the things I still have to do, it's the things that I DON'T have to do that I like.
                Those things are very few in number, which is my point.

                CJ won't work for me for my niche I'm pretty sure
                What makes you say that?

                and it would limit my affiliate potential if it did work because not all affiliates have a website.
                Your "power affiliates" (the ones that will drive 80% of your affiliate sales) will almost certainly have websites.

                if they were even close to as good as clickbank I would have already heard of them.
                If you replaced the word "good" with the word "popular" then I would be inclined to agree. But more popular doesn't necessarily mean better, especially when that popularity grew at at a time when different people were leading the company and it had a different strategy. Now ClickBank has new management and a new goal, and they've demonstrated an amazing propensity for trying to get away with unethical behavior and only holding off when they realize people won't put up with it.

                I've gone from a huge ClickBank fan and a very loyal customer to someone who would not in any way rely on them for a new business venture. Would I take advantage of some extra sales from affiliates in the way I mentioned above? Sure. But why would I rely on them any more than that? If you want the sales from ClickBank affiliates, you can do what I described. Show a ClickBank payment button if the visitor came from a ClickBank hoplink, and show a different payment button the rest of the time. It's not hard, and it minimizes your reliance on ClickBank.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10461843].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                  Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                  Those things are very few in number, which is my point.



                  What makes you say that?



                  Your "power affiliates" (the ones that will drive 80% of your affiliate sales) will almost certainly have websites.



                  If you replaced the word "good" with the word "popular" then I would be inclined to agree. But more popular doesn't necessarily mean better, especially when that popularity grew at at a time when different people were leading the company and it had a different strategy. Now ClickBank has new management and a new goal, and they've demonstrated an amazing propensity for trying to get away with unethical behavior and only holding off when they realize people won't put up with it.

                  I've gone from a huge ClickBank fan and a very loyal customer to someone who would not in any way rely on them for a new business venture. Would I take advantage of some extra sales from affiliates in the way I mentioned above? Sure. But why would I rely on them any more than that? If you want the sales from ClickBank affiliates, you can do what I described. Show a ClickBank payment button if the visitor came from a ClickBank hoplink, and show a different payment button the rest of the time. It's not hard, and it minimizes your reliance on ClickBank.
                  Hmm, I'm not sure. I always thought CJ was for physical mainstream products but I never looked into it at all so maybe it could be a good place.

                  Either way though I still can't see a reason to not start on Clickbank especially when they don't make you sell exclusively on Clickbank or anything. If Clickbank sucks, then I'll add my products on some other stuff too, but even if Clickbank doesn't suck I'm sure I'll still end up sticking my products in other places & still having them on Clickbank also.

                  Once I'm further down the road I will have to leave clickbank anyways because they have a cap on how much you can sell a product for and I want to get to the $500 dollar price range within a few years, and the $1,997 in less than 10 years.

                  I know I could price anything at those prices but I mean have stuff at those prices that people want to buy and feel happy with their purchase so they don't return or feel ripped off.

                  Sell 100 products a year at 2,000 dollars a pop and I'm set!

                  I'm 27 right now, I'd like to be at 200 grand per year by 35.

                  Well, I'd like to be there now but I think in 8 years time I could for sure get there, I hope.

                  I could always get lucky too and get a super affiliate or a huge vendor to promote my first product but I'm not holding my breathe.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10462279].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author agmccall
            Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post


            I can agree that figuring out everything on your own would be the best way to go, but for people that need the middle man, clickbank is in my eyes the only game in town.
            The more I read your posts the more I think that you actually work for clickbank.

            al
            Signature

            "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10461577].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
              Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

              Looked at my niche in JVzoo and there's not one person of relevance there, so I won't put my stuff there either, and if I have to dig around google to find something similar to Clickbank then it's not going to be as good as Clickbank.
              Justin, feel free to pm me your general niche and I'm sure I can tell you some options.

              I'm all for being a trend setter personally. Just because it's not on JVZoo now doesn't mean it can't be the beginning of something getting started in there.

              Good affiliates will find where good programs (and good products) are that fit their needs.
              Signature

              "May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10461606].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                Originally Posted by Jill Carpenter View Post

                Justin, feel free to pm me your general niche and I'm sure I can tell you some options.

                I'm all for being a trend setter personally. Just because it's not on JVZoo now doesn't mean it can't be the beginning of something getting started in there.

                Good affiliates will find where good programs (and good products) are that fit their needs.
                Yea, once I'm all set up with Clickbank I'll probably throw my product in JVzoo anyways because it's barely any extra work and has the potential to make me lots of extra money.

                I haven't even worked on my product in like a month though, this discussion really killed my motivation, I was in the groove, but I'm still happy I got my website set up and e-mail list and everything's all integrated and looks super professional. My product won't take long to create though, if I went balls to the walls I could finish it in a few days so I'm just taking your advice and building my site and my list for now and kind of just seeing what happens with Clickbank.

                I kind of hope all the big names in my niche abandon Clickbank because then I'll get all the little affiliates that don't know how to do affiliate marketing or don't trust doing affiliate marketing without Clickbank.

                I don't think any of them will pull out though, I'd say at most they will just make another page that doesn't use Clickbank but still keep their Clickbank page for all the Clickbank affiliates.

                I probably should start working on my product some more though Jan 5 is coming up I just hope I can figure out how to add the badge to my site because I don't have a web developer or anything I use wordpress and I have zero experience with having a website and doing coding and stuff like that.

                I also want to figure out this whole LLC deal before launching my product because I'm already poor, getting sued would suck.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10461709].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
              Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

              The more I read your posts the more I think that you actually work for clickbank.

              al
              Lol, I wish I worked for Clickbank they probably pay pretty well haha. I just say what I feel, it's just my perspective. Once I'm actually in the game and gain real vendor experience and what not my perspective could change.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10461663].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
              Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

              The more I read your posts the more I think that you actually work for clickbank.

              al
              How strange. There's another Warrior here and the more I read his posts the more I think he actually works for ClickBank's rivals.

              .
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10461739].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Wayne
                I'm not seeing a mass exodus of vendors from Clickbank and more products are still being added everyday. Just yesterday had 4 new products added, 18 new products over the last week.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10461782].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                  Originally Posted by Wayne View Post

                  I'm not seeing a mass exodus of vendors from Clickbank and more products are still being added everyday. Just yesterday had 4 new products added, 18 new products over the last week.
                  People will still continue to put products on ClickBank. I don't think most vendors are aware of the "badge" requirement yet. I also think that among the vendors who are aware of it, most of them probably bought into ClickBank's "apology" over their initial version of this whole scheme, and mistakenly think the "badge" is the end of it. I feel sorry for anyone who isn't prepared to make changes when ClickBank moves forward with the next steps.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10461855].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
                  Originally Posted by Wayne View Post

                  I'm not seeing a mass exodus of vendors from Clickbank and more products are still being added everyday. Just yesterday had 4 new products added, 18 new products over the last week.
                  The question is how would we know if there is an exodus?

                  If you are simply judging by marketplace listing, you are most likely over counting cb vendors, possibly by a significant amount - a vendor who has made at least 1 sale ever in the past, can pretty much maintain their marketplace listing indefinitely, and still benefit from free publicity and free hop traffic, even if they no longer have any active cb payment links (so arent really active as a cb vendor any more).
                  Signature
                  ClickBank Vendor?
                  - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
                  - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
                  - Killer Graphics for Your Site
                  SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10462207].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author agmccall
                  Originally Posted by Wayne View Post

                  I'm not seeing a mass exodus of vendors from Clickbank
                  And, I do not think you will until the java script associated with the badge changes. And I am pretty certain that it will, and when it does it will benefit clickbank and not the vendors or affiliates.

                  Another thing that I think will happen if the change takes place will be the more experienced affiliates will be contacting the owners of their best converting offers and ask them to change network, or at least add their product to another network. They will do this if they feel that their traffic is being diverted in any way.

                  al
                  Signature

                  "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10462223].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author ElGuapo
                    Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

                    And, I do not think you will until the java script associated with the badge changes. And I am pretty certain that it will, and when it does it will benefit clickbank and not the vendors or affiliates.

                    Another thing that I think will happen if the change takes place will be the more experienced affiliates will be contacting the owners of their best converting offers and ask them to change network, or at least add their product to another network. They will do this if they feel that their traffic is being diverted in any way.

                    al
                    This is the crux of the matter.

                    While I'm broadly sympathetic to those criticising Clickbank for their recent moves, I feel an important factor is being overlooked: Clickbank backed down.

                    They backed down because vendors and affiliates alike weren't having it, and they faced an exodus. So I don't see why they would try something like that again knowing what the consequences would be.

                    Even if they did, it shouldn't be a traumatic process for vendors to switch payment processors. And successful vendors and affiliates ought to be in contact with each other to make such a transition as seamless as possible.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10462311].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author agmccall
                      Originally Posted by ElGuapo View Post

                      This is the crux of the matter.

                      While I'm broadly sympathetic to those criticising Clickbank for their recent moves, I feel an important factor is being overlooked: Clickbank backed down.

                      They backed down because vendors and affiliates alike weren't having it, and they faced an exodus. So I don't see why they would try something like that again knowing what the consequences would be.

                      Even if they did, it shouldn't be a traumatic process for vendors to switch payment processors. And successful vendors and affiliates ought to be in contact with each other to make such a transition as seamless as possible.
                      Then the question remains. Why the Java Script, and why Java Script they control?

                      If they want a badge, fine. Just provide the images and let vendors program their own badge

                      al
                      Signature

                      "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10462352].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author ElGuapo
                        Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

                        Then the question remains. Why the Java Script, and why Java Script they control?

                        If they want a badge, fine. Just provide the images and let vendors program their own badge

                        al
                        Just spitballing here, but could it just be so they can test and refine what is already there? It'd be easier to do that than to ask the vendor to continually update their badge with new, micro changes.
                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10462364].message }}
                        • Profile picture of the author agmccall
                          Originally Posted by ElGuapo View Post

                          Just spitballing here, but could it just be so they can test and refine what is already there? It'd be easier to do that than to ask the vendor to continually update their badge with new, micro changes.
                          But what do they need to test. there are no conversions involved. The badge as is will have virtually no affect on the sales page. But when that badge becomes a link away from the sales page then there will be a problem.

                          continually update their badge with new, micro changes.
                          Have you ever heard of the boiled frog

                          They say that if you put a frog into a pot of boiling water,
                          it will leap out right away to escape the danger.

                          But, if you put a frog in a kettle that is filled with water that is cool and pleasant,
                          and then you gradually heat the kettle until it starts boiling,
                          the frog will not become aware of the threat until it is too late.
                          The frog's survival instincts are geared towards detecting sudden changes.

                          This is a story that is used to illustrate how people might get themselves into terrible trouble.
                          This parable is often used to illustrate how humans have to be careful to watch slowly changing trends in the environment, not just the sudden changes. Its a warning to keep us paying attention not just to obvious threats but to more slowly developing ones.

                          An example:
                          Let's say that every year, the local well had an inch less of water in it. A person might realize there's a problem if there's suddenly NO water, but a slowly dropping level might not be an obvious crisis until it's too late!
                          Can you think of other examples?
                          al
                          Signature

                          "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10463642].message }}
                          • Profile picture of the author ElGuapo
                            Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

                            But what do they need to test. there are no conversions involved. The badge as is will have virtually no affect on the sales page. But when that badge becomes a link away from the sales page then there will be a problem.
                            The badge, when clicked on, contains various text and a link to BBB.org. It's not much, but it is not infeasible that they might want to make slight alterations to what is there.

                            Again, I'm just spitballing. I have no idea. But I do think that is more likely than CB dropping a massive overnight change that would have all their moneymakers running for the hills. The original issue that sparked the crisis would be meek in comparison.
                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10463722].message }}
                            • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                              Originally Posted by ElGuapo View Post

                              The badge, when clicked on, contains various text and a link to BBB.org. It's not much, but it is not infeasible that they might want to make slight alterations to what is there.

                              Again, I'm just spitballing. I have no idea. But I do think that is more likely than CB dropping a massive overnight change that would have all their moneymakers running for the hills. The original issue that sparked the crisis would be meek in comparison.
                              Exactly, they aren't trying to go out of business. Like I mentioned before, companies will overstep so they can see how people react, and then they adjust. 10 steps forwards, 2 steps back.

                              The boiling frog analogy is very relevant though, and is a good point to bring up, but I think the biggest money makers will hop out no matter how slowly they turn up the heat, and if that happens then the company is dead, and I doubt they want to become a useless company that doesn't make any money.

                              I'm sure they are using java so if they do make a little tweak they don't have to e-mail every vendor again and make sure they all set up the new badge and go through this whole entire headache every time they want to make a simple little change.

                              Just because they could start doing all the things everyone is worried about, doesn't mean they are going to.

                              It's not in their best interest to scare away all the vendors and affiliates and be left with nothing but the bottom of the barrel that doesn't make them any money anyways.

                              They want to make as much money as they possibly can, that's their goal. Their goal is not to go out of business as fast as possible lmao, you never know though.

                              I'm listening to everything everyone is saying. It's not going in one ear and out the other, so I am aware and concerned but I feel more like it's nothing to worry about so I'm not going to worry about it.

                              Even if this all does go down and it's chaos, I have no clue if that will benefit me or hurt me so really I can't say if I would be for or against whatever people think is going to happen.

                              For all I know, everyone could be right, and it could be the best thing that ever happened to me in my life.
                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10463755].message }}
                              • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                                Justin, we get it. Honestly, we do. You don't think it will be a problem, and it's normal for newcomers to be optimistic (sometimes too optimistic). On the other hand, many of us who have years of experience do think it will be a problem. Time will tell.

                                Nobody is telling you whether you can or can not use ClickBank. I would recommend that you only display a ClickBank purchase button if the traffic actually came from a ClickBank hoplink, and not rely on them any more than that (because there's no reason to, and every reason not to). But that's for you to decide, and you don't have to keep justifying that decision. Your time would be a lot better spent finishing your product.
                                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10463947].message }}
                                • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                                  Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                                  Justin, we get it. Honestly, we do. You don't think it will be a problem, and it's normal for newcomers to be optimistic (sometimes too optimistic). On the other hand, many of us who have years of experience do think it will be a problem. Time will tell.

                                  Nobody is telling you whether you can or can not use ClickBank. I would recommend that you only display a ClickBank purchase button if the traffic actually came from a ClickBank hoplink, and not rely on them any more than that (because there's no reason to, and every reason not to). But that's for you to decide, and you don't have to keep justifying that decision. Your time would be a lot better spent finishing your product.
                                  Yea I plan on getting to a level where I only use Clickbank for the extra affiliates and then have duplicate sales pages where I have everything set up on my own.

                                  My time would be wayyyy better spent finishing my product, but oh well, I'm not good at time management but it's okay because if my product was done right now it would just be sitting around anyways, I decided to build a decent list so I can make more money in one day then I ever have in my life when I launch my product.

                                  I know I keep saying the same thing over and over, but so do you, so you really shouldn't mind if I do too.
                                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10463999].message }}
                                  • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                                    Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                                    Yea I plan on getting to a level where I only use Clickbank for the extra affiliates and then have duplicate sales pages where I have everything set up on my own.

                                    My time would be wayyyy better spent finishing my product, but oh well, I'm not good at time management but it's okay because if my product was done right now it would just be sitting around anyways, I decided to build a decent list so I can make more money in one day then I ever have in my life when I launch my product.
                                    I just know that if I wasn't making money yet, I wouldn't be spending this much time in a discussion thread where I had already stated my views and I was lacking in relevant experience to begin with. Sorry if that sounds harsh, and I don't mean it to be. But I've had problems with procrastination myself, so I know it when I see it.

                                    I know I keep saying the same thing over and over, but so do you, so you really shouldn't mind if I do too.
                                    I don't mind per se, I just don't think it's a good idea from your perspective.

                                    Yes, I've had to repeat myself in this thread, but that's usually been when someone was directly challenging me. It's also worth noting that I have a lot of experience with ClickBank and internet marketing in general. I also have a vested interest in this subject as someone who is actively using ClickBank's services in the course of selling my product. And I don't say this to be an a-hole, but I'll make enough money today with my business to exceed most people's weekly paychecks regardless of what I do. So my situation is a little bit different, and taking the time to rant about ClickBank's unethical behavior is not as detrimental to me.

                                    That being said, you're obviously free to participate in the forum however you choose.
                                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10464074].message }}
                                    • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                                      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                                      I just know that if I wasn't making money yet, I wouldn't be spending this much time in a discussion thread where I had already stated my views and I was lacking in relevant experience to begin with. Sorry if that sounds harsh, and I don't mean it to be. But I've had problems with procrastination myself, so I know it when I see it.



                                      I don't mind per se, I just don't think it's a good idea from your perspective.

                                      Yes, I've had to repeat myself in this thread, but that's usually been when someone was directly challenging me. It's also worth noting that I have a lot of experience with ClickBank and internet marketing in general. I also have a vested interest in this subject as someone who is actively using ClickBank's services in the course of selling my product. And I don't say this to be an a-hole, but I'll make enough money today with my business to exceed most people's weekly paychecks regardless of what I do. So my situation is a little bit different, and taking the time to rant about ClickBank's unethical behavior is not as detrimental to me.

                                      That being said, you're obviously free to participate in the forum however you choose.
                                      Okay. I don't know how much money you make but it's obvious to me you make a lot more than I do and are way more experienced than me, but if you want to play those cards, I'm 27 years old, I don't know how old you are, but I'm sure I have time to catch up.

                                      I'm not trying to make a competition though I'm just saying that it is kind of rude what you said to me, if you want to play the numbers game you should wait until I'm on your level.
                                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10464433].message }}
                                      • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                                        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                                        Okay. I don't know how much money you make but it's obvious to me you make a lot more than I do and are way more experienced than me, but if you want to play those cards, I'm 27 years old, I don't know how old you are, but I'm sure I have time to catch up.

                                        I'm not trying to make a competition though I'm just saying that it is kind of rude what you said to me, if you want to play the numbers game you should wait until I'm on your level.
                                        I'm not trying to make it a competition either, and I'm not saying you shouldn't participate in any thread you choose. All I'm saying is that just because you see me posting a lot in this thread doesn't mean it's a good use of your time if you do the same. We're in different situations right now, and ClickBank's unethical behavior affects us differently, so you have to factor that in.

                                        I'm not talking about whether or not you should post your views here. I think everyone should. I'm talking more about the amount of time spent doing so.

                                        For what it's worth, I started my business when I was 21. By the time I was 27, I had made some money, but it was very sporadic, and I was broke a lot of the time. That was primarily because my time management was very poor.

                                        The main reason my situation has changed since then is because I've learned to identify the things I use to procrastinate and stop doing them. I love playing video games, but I don't keep a system in the house or games on my computers anymore. Instead, I occasionally play them socially with friends. Why? Because I can easily play video games for 8 or 10 hours while thinking "I'll do some stuff later."

                                        Once your income and savings reach a certain level, you can indulge a little more in unproductive things, but not much if you want to keep growing. I still don't play video games at home. I don't debate on political forums. I rarely browse Facebook or Twitter. When I watch TV or Youtube videos, I try to watch things that will enrich my mind or help me with my business or health, and it's usually in the background while I do something else. Each of these decisions has made me vastly more effective.

                                        It's about taking an honest look at what you're doing with your time and identifying the things that don't move you towards your goals. Then you stop doing those things almost entirely. Don't sacrifice your relationships or your health, since having good relationships and being healthy should be goals also. Just stop the unproductive, time wasting crap.

                                        Short version, you won't be successful without exercising time management. The more I learn about highly successful people, the more I discover that they all maximize the use of their time extremely well.
                                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10465098].message }}
                                        • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                                          Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                                          I'm not trying to make it a competition either, and I'm not saying you shouldn't participate in any thread you choose. All I'm saying is that just because you see me posting a lot in this thread doesn't mean it's a good use of your time if you do the same. We're in different situations right now, and ClickBank's unethical behavior affects us differently, so you have to factor that in.

                                          I'm not talking about whether or not you should post your views here. I think everyone should. I'm talking more about the amount of time spent doing so.

                                          For what it's worth, I started my business when I was 21. By the time I was 27, I had made some money, but it was very sporadic, and I was broke a lot of the time. That was primarily because my time management was very poor.

                                          The main reason my situation has changed since then is because I've learned to identify the things I use to procrastinate and stop doing them. I love playing video games, but I don't keep a system in the house or games on my computers anymore. Instead, I occasionally play them socially with friends. Why? Because I can easily play video games for 8 or 10 hours while thinking "I'll do some stuff later."

                                          Once your income and savings reach a certain level, you can indulge a little more in unproductive things, but not much if you want to keep growing. I still don't play video games at home. I don't debate on political forums. I rarely browse Facebook or Twitter. When I watch TV or Youtube videos, I try to watch things that will enrich my mind or help me with my business or health, and it's usually in the background while I do something else. Each of these decisions has made me vastly more effective.

                                          It's about taking an honest look at what you're doing with your time and identifying the things that don't move you towards your goals. Then you stop doing those things almost entirely. Don't sacrifice your relationships or your health, since having good relationships and being healthy should be goals also. Just stop the unproductive, time wasting crap.

                                          Short version, you won't be successful without exercising time management. The more I learn about highly successful people, the more I discover that they all maximize the use of their time extremely well.
                                          How much time do you think I spend on this forum? LMAO!

                                          My time management is fine. If I was in a rush, I'd work more, but I'm not in a rush, and not being in a rush is the reason everything I do turns out so insanely professional first try.

                                          You don't use Facebook or Twitter often? I don't use them at all. When I watch youtube videos I don't try to watch things that help me in business, health, and beyond, I DO watch those things. When I watch TV, it's on in the backround while I watch or listen to a seminar or audiobook on my laptop, and if i'm not doing that then I'm working on my site while the TV is on.

                                          Maybe I should be the one giving you advice on time management.
                                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10465363].message }}
                                          • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                                            Originally Posted by [Justin]

                                            I'm not good at time management

                                            ...

                                            My time management is fine.
                                            How much time do you think I spend on this forum? LMAO!
                                            Enough to be checking this thread multiple times per day and posting a number of long explanations of your views on this issue with ClickBank, despite having already posted those thoughts before. More than I would be spending if I wasn't making money yet, but your time is yours to use as you see fit.

                                            If I was in a rush, I'd work more, but I'm not in a rush, and not being in a rush is the reason everything I do turns out so insanely professional first try.
                                            Being proud of your work is fine, but until it's making you money... this is a business, after all.

                                            There's also a difference between accomplishing things faster and rushing (in a "haste makes waste" kind of way). You seem to be conflating speed and efficiency in reaching your goal with the negative concept of rushing.

                                            Anyway, you obviously feel like you're being lectured to, so I doubt my words are helpful to you. If you want to succeed badly enough, nothing I can tell you is anything you won't figure out on your own anyway.

                                            You don't use Facebook or Twitter often? I don't use them at all. When I watch youtube videos I don't try to watch things that help me in business, health, and beyond, I DO watch those things. When I watch TV, it's on in the backround while I watch or listen to a seminar or audiobook on my laptop, and if i'm not doing that then I'm working on my site while the TV is on.

                                            Maybe I should be the one giving you advice on time management.
                                            I'm just telling you what helped me go from a small, unstable income to a nice income and lifestyle. Those were things I was wasting a lot of time on, so I changed that. I have no idea if you waste time on those specific things or not; that wasn't my point. My point was that it helps to identify the things you do waste time on and make changes.

                                            Nevertheless, if you want to scoff at that and get defensive about how your productivity is already great (and blame me for believing otherwise based on what you've previously said), then go ahead, I guess.
                                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10465520].message }}
                                            • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                                              Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                                              Enough to be checking this thread multiple times per day and posting a number of long explanations of your views on this issue with ClickBank, despite having already posted those thoughts before. More than I would be spending if I wasn't making money yet, but your time is yours to use as you see fit.



                                              Being proud of your work is fine, but until it's making you money... this is a business, after all.

                                              There's also a difference between accomplishing things faster and rushing (in a "haste makes waste" kind of way). You seem to be conflating speed and efficiency in reaching your goal with the negative concept of rushing.

                                              Anyway, you obviously feel like you're being lectured to, so I doubt my words are helpful to you. If you want to succeed badly enough, nothing I can tell you is anything you won't figure out on your own anyway.



                                              I'm just telling you what helped me go from a small, unstable income to a nice income and lifestyle. Those were things I was wasting a lot of time on, so I changed that. I have no idea if you waste time on those specific things or not; that wasn't my point. My point was that it helps to identify the things you do waste time on and make changes.

                                              Nevertheless, if you want to scoff at that and get defensive about how your productivity is already great (and blame me for believing otherwise based on what you've previously said), then go ahead, I guess.
                                              I didn't say my productivity was great, I already know I could get a lot more done in a day, but my time management is fine as in I'm fine with the way I'm doing things.

                                              I don't care how much money you make, or how little money I make I can use this forum as much as I want, it's not like it's affecting me. I'm on it right now, if I wasn't on it right now, I wouldn't be working on anything right now so it's not like being here is slowing anything down in my life.

                                              I've heard people like Eben Pagan talk about time management all the time but I just don't care because it's not a big deal to me.

                                              I'd rather take 5 years to get done what I could have got done in one year as long as I enjoy myself more in those 5 years than I would have in that one year.

                                              I really don't need, want, or appreciate a lecture from you.

                                              You keep talking about how much more money you make than me, how old are you? Once I'm that age, see if I make more or less than what you are now, and then you can talk down to me, but for all you know, when I'm your age I could be way past where you are now, or I could be living in a trash can, who knows? I know you don't know so don't assume and don't talk to me like you're some all high and mighty man just because you make more money than me.
                                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10465609].message }}
                                              • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                                                Talking down to you was never my point. I'll let you have the last word, since you're obviously upset and you're not going to take anything I say in the way it's intended.
                                                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10465641].message }}
                              • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
                                Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post


                                For all I know, everyone could be right, and it could be the best thing that ever happened to me in my life.
                                I'll make a recommendation as a safe guard for yourself.

                                Make sure you have a link for "affiliates" on the bottom of your site, and make sure that links to a page where you can get their information in exchange for some marketing materials they can use.

                                This way if you do have to jump down the road you'll have a list of affiliates to alert.
                                Signature

                                "May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"

                                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10463962].message }}
                                • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                                  Originally Posted by Jill Carpenter View Post

                                  I'll make a recommendation as a safe guard for yourself.

                                  Make sure you have a link for "affiliates" on the bottom of your site, and make sure that links to a page where you can get their information in exchange for some marketing materials they can use.

                                  This way if you do have to jump down the road you'll have a list of affiliates to alert.
                                  Thanks, I actually will definitely do that!
                                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10464000].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                      Originally Posted by ElGuapo View Post

                      This is the crux of the matter.

                      While I'm broadly sympathetic to those criticising Clickbank for their recent moves, I feel an important factor is being overlooked: Clickbank backed down.

                      They backed down because vendors and affiliates alike weren't having it, and they faced an exodus. So I don't see why they would try something like that again knowing what the consequences would be.

                      Even if they did, it shouldn't be a traumatic process for vendors to switch payment processors. And successful vendors and affiliates ought to be in contact with each other to make such a transition as seamless as possible.
                      Yea, a lot of companies will actually make a huge move, see how people react, and then they make a calculated move. I know Facebook has done it a few times, they'll take like 10 steps forwards, and then 2 steps back.

                      I've said before, I doubt Clickbank wants to go out of business so it's not in their best interest to do something that will make all the affiliates and vendors leave, so it's obvious to me things won't be as drastic as people think, but only time can tell.
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10462517].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
                        3 weeks since I installed the badge and sales have remained unaffected.

                        Let's hope they don't do anything stupid in 2016.
                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10465718].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author charlesnajars
    Thanks for this nice info about Clickbank.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10462683].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Willie Crawford
    A very LONG and informative thread. I was on the verge on putting several of my new products on Clickbank, but have decided to use a different solution that pushes the money through a merchant account and then direct deposits to my bank account. I realize that that is not an option for everyone.

    My business model also doesn't rely as heavily upon affiliates as many do. For many of my products, I generate the VAST majority of sales. So while affiliates do add to my bottom-line, I only have an open affiliate program for select products.

    Willie
    Signature

    Here's A Ready-Made High Ticket Product To Make Your Own.
    Click To Go BIG!

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10465671].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
      Originally Posted by Willie Crawford View Post

      A very LONG and informative thread. I was on the verge on putting several of my new products on Clickbank, but have decided to use a different solution that pushes the money through a merchant account and then direct deposits to my bank account. I realize that that is not an option for everyone.

      My business model also doesn't rely as heavily upon affiliates as many do. For many of my products, I generate the VAST majority of sales. So while affiliates do add to my bottom-line, I only have an open affiliate program for select products.

      Willie
      Hey Willie!

      So here's a question for you.

      It's my thought that vendors who are not as reliant on affiliates will/would do ok.

      Is the badge itself being on your reasoning?
      Signature

      "May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10465689].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
        That's my thinking now, too, Jill...

        Originally Posted by Jill Carpenter View Post

        It's my thought that vendors who are not as reliant on affiliates will/would do ok.
        as long as the "badge" doesn't, at some point, revert to being more like the original header.

        However, if the Clickbank marketplace doesn't manage to drive/attract its own traffic in significant quantities, what value does it bring for the merchant? If the merchant is driving their own traffic to their sites, a lack-luster marketplace buys them nothing but higher fees, and they could do better with just a Paypal button on the sales page.
        Signature

        Sid Hale
        Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10465722].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author rayeesul
    Banned
    How will that affect the consumer's buying mentality at the moment of purchase?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10465850].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
      Originally Posted by rayeesul View Post

      How will that affect the consumer's buying mentality at the moment of purchase?
      My guess is it will make people feel safer buying, they'll see the 60 day money back guarantee is enforced by a company that has an A+ with the BBB, so my guess is it will only make people feel safer buying, and probably make them feel like what they're buying is more legit. That's just my guess though, how it actually affects customers probably depends a lot on you, your product, and your niche. For most people probably no real noticeable difference, at least for how the badge currently is, that could change if Clickbank decides they want to go out of business.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10466449].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

        My guess is it will make people feel safer buying, they'll see the 60 day money back guarantee is enforced by a company that has an A+ with the BBB, so my guess is it will only make people feel safer buying, and probably make them feel like what they're buying is more legit.
        There are other possibilities:

        - Buyers get confused about why two companies' brands are on the page, and this interrupts their train of thought when they would normally be continuing to consider buying the product

        - Buyers Google ClickBank and learn about its reputation as a haven for people who want free stuff (bought with the intention of getting a refund regardless of product quality) and this gives them the same idea

        Those are just a couple off the top of my head. Of course, this only has to do with the immediate effect on conversions and revenue, and not the longer term problems with where ClickBank is headed.

        For most people probably no real noticeable difference, at least for how the badge currently is, that could change if Clickbank decides they want to go out of business.
        I'm not sure why you've locked onto this idea that ClickBank won't do the things people are worried about because ClickBank doesn't want to put themselves out of business.

        In reality, they already tried to do these things. They didn't get away with it, so they adjusted their strategy. They didn't go out of business.

        Now they're pursuing a new strategy, and this time they're "boiling the frog" so to speak. Maybe they'll get away with it under this new approach. Maybe they won't, and they'll either adjust their strategy again or finally give up on this idea. They probably still won't go out of business.

        To disregard the obvious concerns about where this is headed based on the concept that ClickBank doesn't want to put themselves out of business is misguided, in my view.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10466932].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
          Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

          There are other possibilities:

          - Buyers get confused about why two companies' brands are on the page, and this interrupts their train of thought when they would normally be continuing to consider buying the product

          - Buyers Google ClickBank and learn about its reputation as a haven for people who want free stuff (bought with the intention of getting a refund regardless of product quality) and this gives them the same idea

          Those are just a couple off the top of my head. Of course, this only has to do with the immediate effect on conversions and revenue, and not the longer term problems with where ClickBank is headed.



          I'm not sure why you've locked onto this idea that ClickBank won't do the things people are worried about because ClickBank doesn't want to put themselves out of business.

          In reality, they already tried to do these things. They didn't get away with it, so they adjusted their strategy. They didn't go out of business.

          Now they're pursuing a new strategy, and this time they're "boiling the frog" so to speak. Maybe they'll get away with it under this new approach. Maybe they won't, and they'll either adjust their strategy again or finally give up on this idea. They probably still won't go out of business.

          To disregard the obvious concerns about where this is headed based on the concept that ClickBank doesn't want to put themselves out of business is misguided, in my view.
          I know they could still do everything people are worried about, but I think they'll regret it if they do.

          A lot of companies will overstep with changes to see how the public reacts so they can adjust accordingly and I know I could easily be wrong, but I think that's all Clickbank did here.

          I think part of the reason for the badge is to help with confusion actually because people can be like "what the heck is clickbank?" then they can just click the badge and see that it's got an A+ with the BBB and then they can trust a secure payment, and know that the 60 day money back is legit, and then when they actually click the buy button, they won't be confused about what the heck clickbank is and why they went from one brand to another brands checkout page. It actually will make it much less confusing in my view. I'm pretty sure the badge is there to clear up confusion, not to cause it.

          I could see it affecting different niches differently but I can't picture any of my future customers being confused with the badge I only see them trusting me even more because that BBB A+ is going to give them the feeling that I have a BBB A+ and will just make them that much more comfortable about doing business with me.

          If that little badge scares away my future customers then lol I don't think they would have ever bought anyways because I can just picture it making people who are on the fence feel safe enough to go ahead and click that buy button feeling completely confident that they can easily get a refund if they feel like what I sold them wasn't worth it, and I WANT them to get a refund if they feel what I sold them wasn't worth it. I don't ever want to sell anything to anybody that they regret buying. I don't ever want someone to think "I wish I didn't buy that." If someone wants a refund, I want them to know exactly how to get one easily without any worry about if they'll actually get their money back or anything.

          If it makes it easier for people to take advantage of me and buy my stuff and just get a refund afterwards, I don't care, hopefully they'll love it and keep going to my site, and stay on my list and maybe they'll buy my next product and not return it, or maybe they'll buy an affiliate offer, or maybe they'll talk about me and I get exposed to customers that won't get a refund.

          I'm not for the badge, but I'm also not against it. Like if they announced that they're removing the badge I would like that, but I'm also okay with it being there. If they do go through with the madness then I'll see how it affects me, and then I'll decide if I like what they did or not.

          You have said tons of times that it's extremely easy to do all this without clickbank and there's tons of other companies to use and stuff, so if it's so easy I can't understand why you're so worried about it anyways.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10466998].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
            Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

            I know they could still do everything people are worried about, but I think they'll regret it if they do.

            A lot of companies will overstep with changes to see how the public reacts so they can adjust accordingly and I know I could easily be wrong, but I think that's all Clickbank did here.
            Very few companies would do what ClickBank did. They tried to take over all of their customers' websites, put their own header and brand at the top, steal their customers' traffic with a link to their own "marketplace," and redirect their customers' website addresses to pages on their own site.

            That's not exactly your typical "testing the market's reaction" type of stuff. And the goal to turn themselves into a retail destination at the expense of the customers who use their services does not appear to have changed. They simply realized they have to slow it down a bit. Just look at the fact that they still won't answer direct questions about things like whether they plan to bring back that link to their "marketplace" once they succeed in forcing everyone to install the "badge."

            I think part of the reason for the badge is to help with confusion actually because people can be like "what the heck is clickbank?"
            ClickBank has provided two justifications for the header (which has now turned into the "badge"):

            1. Customers being confused when they see "ClickBank" on their credit card statements, with this causing a problematic number of chargebacks.

            I don't believe this is a major issue at all. Customers pay on a ClickBank order form. They receive order confirmation emails from ClickBank. The vendor's "Thank You" page tells them the credit card statement will say "ClickBank." Some small percentage of people might still be confused after all of that, but not enough to conveniently justify forcing every vendor to put ClickBank's branding onto their websites (much less everything else ClickBank tried to do). If this were a real issue, there are far less intrusive ways to address it.

            2. Credit card fraud moving online due to the new chipped cards making in-person fraud more difficult.

            Online fraud will not be combated in any way by putting an ad for ClickBank (or "badge" as they're now calling it) on a vendor's website.

            I'm pretty sure the badge is there to clear up confusion, not to cause it.
            It's there because a scheme to benefit themselves and their brand, which included taking over everybody's websites and stealing traffic for their own benefit, fell flat on its face. So they pivoted and changed the header to this "badge," and they put the other parts of their scheme on hold (for now). Once their foot is in the door with the "badge" installed on everybody's sites, further encroachments will be much easier. By accepting this "badge" and not worrying about what else they have planned, you're playing right into their hands. You're the frog.

            I could see it affecting different niches differently but I can't picture any of my future customers being confused with the badge I only see them trusting me even more because that BBB A+ is going to give them the feeling that I have a BBB A+ and will just make them that much more comfortable about doing business with me.

            If that little badge scares away my future customers then lol I don't think they would have ever bought anyways because I can just picture it making people who are on the fence feel safe enough to go ahead and click that buy button feeling completely confident that they can easily get a refund if they feel like what I sold them wasn't worth it,
            Like I said, it's not at all certain that having a "badge" like that on your site will help you, and it's possible for something like that to affect conversions negatively. You're losing control of the customer's train of thought as they scan your page, and you're associating your brand with ClickBank's brand. And again, this is not the main point.

            and I WANT them to get a refund if they feel what I sold them wasn't worth it. I don't ever want to sell anything to anybody that they regret buying. I don't ever want someone to think "I wish I didn't buy that." If someone wants a refund, I want them to know exactly how to get one easily without any worry about if they'll actually get their money back or anything.
            You don't need ClickBank for that.

            If it makes it easier for people to take advantage of me and buy my stuff and just get a refund afterwards, I don't care, hopefully they'll love it and keep going to my site, and stay on my list and maybe they'll buy my next product and not return it, or maybe they'll buy an affiliate offer, or maybe they'll talk about me and I get exposed to customers that won't get a refund.
            There are lots of possible pie in the sky outcomes from someone ripping you off, but generally speaking, it's not a good thing.

            I'm not for the badge, but I'm also not against it. Like if they announced that they're removing the badge I would like that, but I'm also okay with it being there. If they do go through with the madness then I'll see how it affects me, and then I'll decide if I like what they did or not.

            You have said tons of times that it's extremely easy to do all this without clickbank and there's tons of other companies to use and stuff, so if it's so easy I can't understand why you're so worried about it anyways.
            I don't like seeing a company that I used to trust and respect, and that I have done business with for years, taken over by new management and turned into a predatory company. A lot of people are unfortunately very reliant on ClickBank after having built their businesses around that platform when it was being run responsibly. ClickBank's unethical and abusive behavior is offensive on multiple levels, and their calculated pivot to this "badge" and the obvious boiling-the-frog approach they're now taking is all the more disgusting due to the fact that it's working on people such as yourself.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10467123].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
              Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

              Very few companies would do what ClickBank did. They tried to take over all of their customers' websites, put their own header and brand at the top, steal their customers' traffic with a link to their own "marketplace," and redirect their customers' website addresses to pages on their own site.

              That's not exactly your typical "testing the market's reaction" type of stuff. And the goal to turn themselves into a retail destination at the expense of the customers who use their services does not appear to have changed. They simply realized they have to slow it down a bit. Just look at the fact that they still won't answer direct questions about things like whether they plan to bring back that link to their "marketplace" once they succeed in forcing everyone to install the "badge."



              ClickBank has provided two justifications for the header (which has now turned into the "badge"):

              1. Customers are confused when they see "ClickBank" on their credit card statements, and this is causing a problematic number of chargebacks.

              I don't believe this is a major issue at all. Customers pay on a ClickBank order form. They receive order confirmation emails from ClickBank. The vendor's "Thank You" page tells them the credit card statement will say "ClickBank." Some small percentage of people might still be confused after all of that, but not enough to conveniently justify forcing every vendor to put ClickBank's branding onto their websites (much less everything else ClickBank tried to do). If this were a real issue, there are far less intrusive ways to address it.

              2. Credit card fraud moving online due to the new chipped cards making in-person fraud more difficult.

              Online fraud will not be combated in any way by putting an ad for ClickBank (or "badge" as they're now calling it) on a vendor's website.



              It's there because a scheme to benefit themselves and their brand, which included taking over everybody's websites and stealing traffic for their own benefit, fell flat on its face. So they pivoted and changed the header to this "badge," and they put the other parts of their scheme on hold (for now). Once their foot is in the door with the "badge" installed on everybody's sites, further encroachments will be much easier. By accepting this "badge" and not worrying about what else they have planned, you're playing right into their hands. You're the frog.



              Like I said, it's not at all certain that having a "badge" like that on your site will help you, and it's possible for something like that to affect conversions negatively. You're losing control of the customer's train of thought as they scan your page, and you're associating your brand with ClickBank's brand. And again, this is not the main point.



              You don't need ClickBank for that.



              There are lots of possible pie in the sky outcomes from someone ripping you off, but generally speaking, it's not a good thing.



              I don't like seeing a company that I used to trust and respect, and that I have done business with for years, taken over by new management and turned into a predatory company. A lot of people are unfortunately very reliant on ClickBank after having built their businesses around that platform when it was being run responsibly. ClickBank's unethical and abusive behavior is offensive on multiple levels, and their calculated pivot to this "badge" and the obvious boiling-the-frog approach they're now taking is all the more all the more disgusting due to the fact that it's working on people such as yourself.
              I agree with everything you just said except I wouldn't say the boiling frog is working on me, I just think there's nothing I can do about it, and if they do all this stuff I have to see how it affects me before I decide to hate it but I will definitely no question hop out of the boiling water if it comes down to it no question about that. I just want to see the bright side, I don't want to demotivate myself anymore than I already have since finding this thread. I was on fire before finding this thread.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10467230].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author reachintan
    I personally do not think this is a great idea because people who know CB very well will consider the product as a part of affiliate network looking only for sales rather than aiming for loyal customers...

    Branded header is simply a bad idea in my opinion...

    Branded footer should be a viable option as not every single person will scroll down and even if someone does, he/she will consider CB as a certified authority that will work well in product's favor...
    Signature

    Chintan Mehta

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10467241].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author TheWebGuy
      Has anybody split test the badge in the lower right corner VS the header at the top?

      I'm not a fan of either because visitors will soon learn to know that when they see this badge on a website they are being pitched a Clickbank product (from the second they hit that page).

      This ruins the delayed sales approach and groups all Clickbank vendors together. The negative impact of this will be felt more as time goes on. I hope Clickbank realizes this and changes this policy soon. It's an obvious attempt to build their brand at the expense of their vendors/affiliates/media buyers brands and conversions.

      But regardless, has anybody split test which badge option is better (for sales)?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10468204].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author amjr1980
    This guy drinks the click bank koolaid it sounds.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10468227].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author charliemwallace
      I am still yet to see any of the big vendors actually using it?

      I've been waiting for them to before I make the change.

      I'm now in a position where I have moved away from CB for most of my stuff and now only want to use CB for Affiliates. However I emailed all my affiliates and told them to stop promoting me because I didn't like the initial header that CB insisted everyone use.

      I think it's pathetic that the banner can't be delayed until the point where the order button appears. I understand that it would be hard for them to police that people are actually making it appear at the right time, but it is important for me as a marketer to deliver content, then give a pitch without people expecting it from the start.

      The deadline was back in Dec so why haven't the big dogs implemented it yet? Are they refusing?

      They said they had some of their top vendors come and brainstorm the ideas with them and they thought this was a great idea. About a week ago I went through the top 10 vendors and not one had it on their site.

      Any thoughts?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10472100].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
        Originally Posted by charliemwallace View Post

        I am still yet to see any of the big vendors actually using it?

        I've been waiting for them to before I make the change.

        I'm now in a position where I have moved away from CB for most of my stuff and now only want to use CB for Affiliates. However I emailed all my affiliates and told them to stop promoting me because I didn't like the initial header that CB insisted everyone use.

        I think it's pathetic that the banner can't be delayed until the point where the order button appears. I understand that it would be hard for them to police that people are actually making it appear at the right time, but it is important for me as a marketer to deliver content, then give a pitch without people expecting it from the start.

        The deadline was back in Dec so why haven't the big dogs implemented it yet? Are they refusing?

        They said they had some of their top vendors come and brainstorm the ideas with them and they thought this was a great idea. About a week ago I went through the top 10 vendors and not one had it on their site.

        Any thoughts?
        I'm sure all of the big vendors are using it.

        The thing is, with the big vendors they have videos and they don't have a buy button pop up until they finally reveal in the video that there's something to buy, and they don't have to have the clickbank badge pop up until there's an actual buy button so I'm sure if you want to sit through a super long video you will see the badge pop up once the buy button pops up.

        This is a huge concern for me I never thought of since I was planning on not having a video because I'd say it's very obvious to people now days that they are being sold to once they come across a page with nothing but a video, especially the while board ones.

        I wanted to do a good old fashioned super long sales page where people don't even realize they're being sold to right away since I give so much info on my site anyways they will just read as if everything is normal and then get sucked in and once they realize they're being sold to they will already want what I'm selling anyways.

        With this badge, they will instantly know that they're on a sales page, so maybe I'm actually going to have to make a video sales page which I'm sure I can figure out with powerpoint, flstudio, and a cheap mic, but I don't think I'll beable to figure out how to make it so my buy button doesn't show up until I want it to, and the clickbank badge not show up until the buy button shows up.

        I know you can actually do stuff like that with my plugin, I got like the best plugin for wordpress you could ever have ever so I have a huge in depth perfect, pro website and it was my first time ever having a website or using wordpress but this just keeps causing me more headaches.

        All I care about is where to start to make the most money but I think everyone is right and clickbank is not a place to stay at, but I do think it will be a good place to start and once I'm comfortably running my business, then I can feel comfy taking things further and learning what I need to learn to do things completely on my own.

        Anyways though, I'm sure that's why you're not seeing the badge on the big vendors. They all have videos, and they all have it set up so the buy button doesn't even pop up for like 30 minutes so I'm sure that's when the badge pops up also.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10472529].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
          Sorry Justin,

          I find it difficult to understand why you are so sure of this, when you have yet to release your first product.

          Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

          I'm sure all of the big vendors are using it.

          The thing is, with the big vendors they have videos and they don't have a buy button pop up until they finally reveal in the video that there's something to buy, and they don't have to have the clickbank badge pop up until there's an actual buy button so I'm sure if you want to sit through a super long video you will see the badge pop up once the buy button pops up.
          If you read the ClickBank Knowledge Base article there is NO indication that it is acceptable to delay the rendering of the trust badge until the buy button is displayed.

          While I think delaying the button is doable, using a non-displayable <div> and writing additional, event-driven javascript to toggle the display at the desired point in time, I've seen nothing from ClickBank to indicate that such a practice would be acceptable to them.

          You might get away with it for a while, but I doubt seriously if they would condone a conditional display of the badge based on some external event on the page.
          Signature

          Sid Hale
          Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10472792].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
            I believe that they have specifically said that a delayed display is unacceptable.
            Signature
            ClickBank Vendor?
            - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
            - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
            - Killer Graphics for Your Site
            SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10472897].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
            Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

            Sorry Justin,

            I find it difficult to understand why you are so sure of this, when you have yet to release your first product.



            If you read the ClickBank Knowledge Base article there is NO indication that it is acceptable to delay the rendering of the trust badge until the buy button is displayed.

            While I think delaying the button is doable, using a non-displayable <div> and writing additional, event-driven javascript to toggle the display at the desired point in time, I've seen nothing from ClickBank to indicate that such a practice would be acceptable to them.

            You might get away with it for a while, but I doubt seriously if they would condone a conditional display of the badge based on some external event on the page.
            Oh sorry I was just assuming because it said the badge only needs to be on a page where the buy button is so I just assumed they could make it so it doesn't pop up until the buy button pops up but I guess not.

            Maybe all the big vendors just aren't going to put up with it and Clickbank will be forced to reconsider or lose a huge percentage of their income.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10472944].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author fulfilledlife
    Damn, those are such unfortunate news. I am just a few days away from releasing an amazing product but with entry price level and was considering to use Clickbank as a payment processor because of how reliable they always been.

    Now, I am not sure.

    I think what will happen is we still going to see new products being placed in Clickbank, for a simple reason because having one more sales page can never hurt but instead make some more income.

    So, I don't think vendors will walk away.

    On the other hand, affiliates might start leaving if all those changes from Clickbank hurt their conversion rates.

    I have a feeling this is not the last change Clickbank is planning and instead of just implementing everything at once, they will push changes slower.
    Signature

    Try not to become a man of success, but rather try to become a man of value - Albert Einstein

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10473377].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
    I doubt the top vendors will implement the badge, I'm guessing the same rules don't apply to them.

    What I've noticed is a slow down of new products being added to clickbank.

    There are only 13 new products added to the clickbank marketplace in the past 30 days with a gravity of at least 1. This is very low considering how big clickbank is. This could be an indication of vendors avoiding clickbank lately.

    From a vendors perspective the other networks actually befriend you and treat you with respect, I'd rather pay a few percentages more than put up a badge and on top of it get no respect at all.

    Clickbank won't be around for long if they keep on treating us like dirt, they need us to survive but for some reason they fail to see it.

    This is the internet businesses can rise and fall within months or even weeks, clickbank has to wake up and smell the coffee before it's too late. They shouldn't take our patience as being weak, leaving them for another network would take no more than 3 minutes.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10474509].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Pnigro
      Top vendors had a different deadline if I remember correctly.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10475641].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
        Originally Posted by Pnigro View Post

        Top vendors had a different deadline if I remember correctly.
        I think their deadline was 2 days ago unless it was January 15th and I'm remembering wrong but I think it was Jan. 5th.

        Maybe the big vendors just don't need Clickbank, won't put up with their crap, aren't going to put up with their crap, and are more than willing to walk away, which if they do that it would be really cool and would show Clickbank who's really in charge because without them Clickbank will basically be dead overnight.

        I let this whole situation stop me dead in my tracks though, my goal in November was to have my product done and up for sale on Clickbank by January 1st at the very latest and that was giving myself so much time that I could barely even work on it everyday and still effortlessly reach that goal, and yet I don't think I even touched my product once since finding this thread, I've also been worried a lot about getting an LLC but I'm going to get this done and up by February 1st and then I'll get my LLC once it makes me enough money to pay for my LLC unless an LLC is cheap I haven't even looked into it.

        Another thing though is I don't know anything about javascript or any type of coding whatsoever so adding the badge could be a really big challenge for me. I barely know wordpress and I barely know how to use my plugin I just know enough to make it work for me really so I also have that in the back of my mind because I don't have money to pay a developer to do it for me.

        I'm sure how I've talked during this thread makes it sound like I enjoy what Clickbank is doing, but I don't at all, I just don't see what I can do about it so I figured it's best to just look at the bright side because I'm just looking for the easiest path to get my foot in the door before worrying about more comlex routes that could be better options, but if the big vendors force Clickbank to drop this whole idea I would love that. But also they could just give the big vendors the benefit of not having a badge and still force the rest of us to have one, and that's actually probably what they will do if it comes down to it.

        Their new CEO has to be a pretty stupid guy, but I'm glad the big timers don't care about this guys crap and are showing him complete disrespect by ignoring his demands and continuing to use his system, that's pretty awesome.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10475787].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Wayne
    I'm not seeing the slowdown with new products being added to the marketplace. If I search the clickbank marketplace for new products added between 12-05-2015 and 01-07-2016 it shows 140 new products added. If I search for the same period a year earlier between 12-05-2014 and 01-07-2015 it shows 98 new products added (there were probably a few more than that which have since completely dropped out of the marketplace). Of course not all of them are going to have gravity. There have always been a high number of products in the marketplace with a gravity of 0. Right now there are a total of 8034 products, with 3279 having a gravity of 0. I am sure there will be some vendors leaving, but I'm not seeing huge numbers yet.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10475752].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
      Originally Posted by Wayne View Post

      I am sure there will be some vendors leaving, but I'm not seeing huge numbers yet.
      How would you know if they are leaving?

      A vendor who has been active in the past can maintain his listing in the marketplace more or less indefinitely, even if they are making no new sales through CB, and have removed most/all of their CB payment link.

      Moreover. it would be in the vendor's interest to maintain their marketplace listing (even if no longer selling thru CB) - because they get free exposure, free traffic, existing hop links on web pages still lead to the vendor's site, and some affiliates might even continue to actively promote hop traffic to the vendor.

      So you wouldn't see a massive drop in marketplace listings, even if many vendors are no longer active in CB

      The only way to really check, is to go to each vendor's site, and check whether it is still possible to order through CB.
      Signature
      ClickBank Vendor?
      - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
      - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
      - Killer Graphics for Your Site
      SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10475781].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
        Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

        How would you know if they are leaving?

        A vendor who has been active in the past can maintain his listing in the marketplace more or less indefinitely, even if they are making no new sales through CB, and have removed most/all of their CB payment link.

        Moreover. it would be in the vendor's interest to maintain their marketplace listing (even if no longer selling thru CB) - because they get free exposure, free traffic, existing hop links on web pages still lead to the vendor's site, and some affiliates might even continue to actively promote hop traffic to the vendor.

        So you wouldn't see a massive drop in marketplace listings, even if many vendors are no longer active in CB

        The only way to really check, is to go to each vendor's site, and check whether it is still possible to order through CB.
        Thanks for saying this, I'll have to check the buy buttons on all my affiliate links that would suck if I'm sending people to a page I can't get a commission from.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10475803].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
          Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

          Thanks for saying this, I'll have to check the buy buttons on all my affiliate links that would suck if I'm sending people to a page I can't get a commission from.
          Justin how long time is it taking you to release your first product?

          36 months?
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10477382].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
            Originally Posted by Ardentify View Post

            Justin how long time is it taking you to release your first product?

            36 months?
            Maybe more maybe less. What matters is how much money I make from it, not how long it takes me to make it.

            When I do release I won't be surprised if I become a mega vendor, but I also won't be surprised if it flops.

            Most vendors are lucky and they just copy each other so they can promote each others stuff but no vendor in my niche will ever want to promote my product because these vendors all lie to my customer base and I don't lie so if any big vendors promoted my stuff they would basically be telling their list to stop listening to them and listen to me instead, which they definitely should but it's going to stop any vendor in my niche from promoting me.

            Most vendors are lucky because they just rehash the same garbage as each other and then they sell it to their lists and it's just like "did you enjoy my crap? Well hey, listen to the same crap over again but in different words from this guy!"

            If they do that for me, then their customers are gone so that's what sucks because I could be rich right away getting big vendors to promote but none of them will so I need to find huge affiliates with huge lists that aren't vendors and they will love to promote my product and their lists will love it but I don't know how to find super affiliates I only know how to find other vendors but I'll figure it out. Once I do find the big boys it will be insanely easy to get them to promote because they'll be getting huge commissions, low returns, and everything looks super pro, and that makes me look super pro. I know my returns will be low because I know my niche and my competition, and my target audience better than the back of my own hand.

            I'm basically an authority, and a top vendor that just hasn't started yet.

            I'm like Katy Perry before she finished her first CD, just super pro and not worried about taking 36 days or 36 months.

            If I was in a rush then I would already have my product done and up for sale, but I don't panic and I don't rush things. I'm cool, calm, and collective. My goal isn't to become some unknown guy that gets a couple sales a month and is struggling just trying to make more products that make a couple sales and die off and really it's better to just go flip burgers, that's not my goal as a vendor.

            I'd rather take 36 months to launch than be a struggling vendor.

            I'm a perfectionist with this, I know my competition, I know their products, I know their design, I know their marketing, their copywriting, their e-mail marketing strategies, I know the customers and their concerns and complaints and what they really want and how they really feel, and I know a lot more than I'm showing.

            You can tell me it doesn't matter what I know and just get it done and then talk, but that's just envy and jealousy talking even though it's masked with "just trying to help you man".

            If I do take 36 months to launch this, then the launch will be HUGE and I'll prob make like 400 grand the first month which would be worth the 36 months it took to launch anyways, so 3 days, 6 days, 36 days, 36 weeks, or 36 months, it just doesn't matter. I'm not in a rush to release this, and if I was then it would already be released.

            I know you're just playing with me but I like talking about myself anyways
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10477491].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
              Justin... come on, dude.

              There's a difference between "not rushing" and just taking way, way longer than you should to actually get your project done.

              If you spend three years or five years (or even one year) talking about how you're starting this business, you're the secret authority in your niche, etc., and then it flops, you're going to be much worse off than if you had actually gotten your project done in a reasonable time frame and it had flopped. In the latter scenario, you would have been able to pivot to a new idea much sooner and lost much less time. There's a reason they say "fail quickly and cheaply."

              You also have to realize that the landscape can dramatically change over a period of years.

              And assuming your business does succeed, and assuming it will succeed regardless of whether you launch it promptly or wait until five years from now, then consider this - where do you want to be in five years? Do you want to have all of the money you would have earned from five years of revenue and growth, or do you want to have nothing and just be starting to make money?

              Do you want to be one of the big boys, or do you want to be a small fry while some guy who had a fire under his ass launched in three months and easily passed you by?

              I am seriously not trying to give you a hard time. I know you won't believe that, but it's true.

              I just don't understand your mindset about this. I'm making good money, but I still feel an intense sense of urgency about completing my current project and launching it. The idea of being in the same place five years from now is unthinkable to me. The sooner I finish what I'm working on now, the sooner I can get moving on my other goals and ideas.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10478125].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                Justin... come on, dude.

                There's a difference between "not rushing" and just taking way, way longer than you should to actually get your project done.

                If you spend three years or five years (or even one year) talking about how you're starting this business, you're the secret authority in your niche, etc., and then it flops, you're going to be much worse off than if you had actually gotten your project done in a reasonable time frame and it had flopped. In the latter scenario, you would have been able to pivot to a new idea much sooner and lost much less time. There's a reason they say "fail quickly and cheaply."

                You also have to realize that the landscape can dramatically change over a period of years.

                And assuming your business does succeed, and assuming it will succeed regardless of whether you launch it promptly or wait until five years from now, then consider this - where do you want to be in five years? Do you want to have all of the money you would have earned from five years of revenue and growth, or do you want to have nothing and just be starting to make money?

                Do you want to be one of the big boys, or do you want to be a small fry while some guy who had a fire under his ass launched in three months and easily passed you by?

                I am seriously not trying to give you a hard time. I know you won't believe that, but it's true.

                I just don't understand your mindset about this. I'm making good money, but I still feel an intense sense of urgency about completing my current project and launching it. The idea of being in the same place five years from now is unthinkable to me. The sooner I finish what I'm working on now, the sooner I can get moving on my other goals and ideas.
                Yea, this product could be done but oh well. I could have had my first website like 2 years ago and if I did it would have sucked and I wouldn't be where I'm at now.

                Everything always turns out in my favor the way I do things, I just go with the flow and everything always turns out better than planned so I'm not worried.

                If this product flops then I will have an insanely bomb free offer to get people to sign up to my list even though I already have an insanely bomb offer, but oh well, people will just get even more for free. If not that, then I will add it as a free bonus when people buy my next product and I'll actually over price this product so I can put it as a high priced bonus that people are getting for free and they can actually check and see I really do sell it for that price and that will get me more sales on the next product.

                I don't plan on it flopping, but if it does it doesn't even matter because there's infinite uses for it regardless and I have infinite ideas and content in my head so I'm really not worried.

                I don't see it taking me one year or 5 years lol but if it did I wouldn't even care, that just means I was distracted by better things that will pay off more in the long run anyways.

                I'm not looking for my next quick buck.

                I am the guy with the fire under my a** but I totally understand the quicker the rise the quicker the fall. I'm not building a house of cards, and I'm not building a skyscraper on the sand.

                Right now what I'm learning is better to spend my time on because I can use what I'm learning in my product and make sure by the time people finish they feel like they got way more value than they paid for, feel completely satisfied with their purchase, and can't wait to buy more from me. Aside from that I also got a few programs for writing copy I want to go through even though I already learned so much I feel like a pro at writing copy, sometimes I go through something, hear a bunch of what I've already heard, but then I hear one little thing that just sets me on fire and brings me up to a whole nother level.

                If I was dying for some money right now I'd be working on my product day and night until getting it released, and then focus on what I'm focusing on right now, and then go back and revise but I'm not in that much of a hurry.

                I did start working on my product again today though, and I do have a goal of getting it done by Feb. 1st and having it up on Clickbank by March 1st.

                My only real worries right now are being able to add the badge to my site, figuring out if I should get a brand new site for my product or have mysite.com/myproduct, and then my very biggest concern is figuring out how to deliver my product. I can't deliver it the way I deliver my free one because it's wayyyyyy too easy for people to just share. I don't care if people put my stuff on torrent sites because at least then they at least have to do a little work to get it. Everyone in my niche has their stuff leaked on torrent sites so if my stuff doesn't get leaked onto torrent sites then that means I'm not even worth stealing from so I'll actually be sad if I don't see people stealing my stuff, but I just don't want it to be as easy as possible so I do have to figure out a way to deliver my product besides just uploading it to wordpress and that's my very biggest concern right now but I try not to even think about it, once the time comes I'm sure it's easier than I think it's going to be.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10478219].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
              Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

              You can tell me it doesn't matter what I know and just get it done and then talk, but that's just envy and jealousy talking even though it's masked with "just trying to help you man".
              You just made my day with "jelousy" and "envy", can't tell if you're a troll in this thread.

              You remind me of those wanna be hip hoppers, living in a dream that their song will get famous. With ebooks the chance of that happening is really low.

              If you are serious about making money in this field you need to change your perspective, set more realistic goals.

              Don't fall in love with your product and the chance of you getting it anywhere near right the first time is almost impossible.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10478301].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                Originally Posted by Ardentify View Post

                You just made my day with "jelousy" and "envy", can't tell if you're a troll in this thread.

                You remind me of those wanna be hip hoppers, living in a dream that their song will get famous. With ebooks the chance of that happening is really low.

                If you are serious about making money in this field you need to change your perspective, set more realistic goals.

                Don't fall in love with your product and the chance of you getting it anywhere near right the first time as almost impossible.
                I've written and sold many ebooks and never became rich so you're not telling me anything new. You have no clue what my perspective is, and how are my goals unrealistic? My goal right now is to finish my product by Feb 1st, and I could finish in less than a week if I had too so how is that unrealistic?

                You are the one trolling, probably jealous that you don't see yourself the way I see myself.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10478320].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
                  Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                  You are the one trolling, probably jealous that you don't see yourself the way I see myself.
                  I just feel blessed I don't see myself the way you see yourself (whatever that is)

                  You were offered help in this thread and you just pushed it away, I'll let you learn the hard way how it all works. 5 years from now I want you to look at the mirror and ask yourself "am I to blame for my failiure?"

                  And please don't reply with "jelous" no one in this thread is jelous of you. Most of us are already where you want to be 10 years from now.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10478355].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                    Originally Posted by Ardentify View Post

                    I just feel blessed I don't see myself the way you see yourself (whatever that is)

                    You were offered help in this thread and you just pushed it away, I'll let you learn the hard way how it all works. 5 years from now I want you to look at the mirror and ask yourself "am I to blame for my failiure?"

                    And please don't reply with "jelous" no one in this thread is jelous of you. Most of us are already where you want to be 10 years from now.
                    No, you're definitely jealous. If I knew your real name would I have heard of you before? If not, then you're not even close to where I want to be 10 years from now. 10 years from now I won't even be playing with Clickbank, I'll be an investor. You have small dreams and you're struggling with your little small dreams, I'll literally rocket passed you within 10 years no doubt.

                    People offering me advice doesn't mean it's good advice or wanted advice. I listen tot he big boys only, nobody else. Are you one of the big boys? If not then your advice literally means nothing to me unless I have a problem I need help with like delivering a product or something that I actually want help and advice for.

                    Anybody can be completely ignorant of what I know, what I do, what my plans are, what I've been through, and where I'm going and then blurt out things like "hurry up and finish your stuff" "I'm better than you so listen to me" lol

                    You're a small fish. Nothing you say matters to me, I'm getting raised by big fish so I have no reason to listen to a small fishes unwanted time management advice.

                    State your age and income or you are irrelevant.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10479162].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
                      Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                      No, you're definitely jealous. If I knew your real name would I have heard of you before? If not, then you're not even close to where I want to be 10 years from now. 10 years from now I won't even be playing with Clickbank, I'll be an investor. You have small dreams and you're struggling with your little small dreams, I'll literally rocket passed you within 10 years no doubt.

                      People offering me advice doesn't mean it's good advice or wanted advice. I listen tot he big boys only, nobody else. Are you one of the big boys? If not then your advice literally means nothing to me unless I have a problem I need help with like delivering a product or something that I actually want help and advice for.

                      Anybody can be completely ignorant of what I know, what I do, what my plans are, what I've been through, and where I'm going and then blurt out things like "hurry up and finish your stuff" "I'm better than you so listen to me" lol

                      You're a small fish. Nothing you say matters to me, I'm getting raised by big fish so I have no reason to listen to a small fishes unwanted time management advice.

                      State your age and income or you are irrelevant.
                      You need a psychologist to deal with your narcissism.
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10479182].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                        Originally Posted by Ardentify View Post

                        You need a psychologist to deal with your narcissism.
                        I've spent 10 years studying psychology. A psychologist needs me actually so they can actually help the people that come to them instead of just reminding them of their same problems for like 30 years straight with no change at all.

                        I'm not narcissistic I just know myself and what I'm doing better than you know me and what I'm doing.

                        I'm not telling you where you're going to be 1-5-10 years from now so don't say that stuff to me.

                        I treat people exactly how they treat me, simple.
                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10479196].message }}
                        • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
                          Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                          I've spent 10 years studying psychology. A psychologist needs me actually
                          Even the psychologist needs you, the definition of that would be: Extreme Narcissism
                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10479222].message }}
                          • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                            Originally Posted by Ardentify View Post

                            Even the psychologist needs you, the definition of that would be: Extreme Narcissism
                            Stop talking about stuff I know a lot about and I won't seem so narcissistic. I'm not going to dumb myself down to make you feel better.
                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10479236].message }}
                        • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                          Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                          I treat people exactly how they treat me, simple.
                          I'm not sure it's that simple, since you mentioned these factors too...

                          Originally Posted by Justin

                          State your age and income or you are irrelevant.
                          When you give people unconditional respect, you're likely to find that this has a knock on effect upon how they treat you. You are but a cog in the gargantuan machine, like everyone else.

                          ...but now Clickbank should be our focus...
                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10479377].message }}
                          • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                            I just went through the first page on Clickbank when you go to marketplace and just click search with the search box empty...

                            The Venus Factor had the badge manipulated the same way Eben Pagan has is on his dating offer except theirs is on the top of the page and his is on the bottom. 0-6 pack abs had the badge in the top right but when you scroll down it's gone so it's stuck at the top, and The 3 Week Diet had the badge set up where no matter where you scroll on the page it's there and visible so they are the only ones who have it set up right, and then all the other vendors don't have the badge at all.

                            I think it would be REALLY cool if every single vendor just refused to cooperate because then what could Clickbank do about it? They couldn't do one single thing about it besides accept the fact nobody is going to play along with their crap or kick everyone off of clickbank and go out of business.

                            Literally if every vendor refused to cooperate what could they do about it besides flush the whole badge idea down the toilet?

                            I think it's pretty cool that most people aren't playing ball and the ones who are; are not playing by the rules.

                            Nice.
                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10482400].message }}
                            • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
                              Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                              I just went through the first page on Clickbank when you go to marketplace and just click search with the search box empty...

                              The Venus Factor had the badge manipulated the same way Eben Pagan has is on his dating offer except theirs is on the top of the page and his is on the bottom. 0-6 pack abs had the badge in the top right but when you scroll down it's gone so it's stuck at the top, and The 3 Week Diet had the badge set up where no matter where you scroll on the page it's there and visible so they are the only ones who have it set up right, and then all the other vendors don't have the badge at all.

                              I think it would be REALLY cool if every single vendor just refused to cooperate because then what could Clickbank do about it? They couldn't do one single thing about it besides accept the fact nobody is going to play along with their crap or kick everyone off of clickbank and go out of business.

                              Literally if every vendor refused to cooperate what could they do about it besides flush the whole badge idea down the toilet?

                              I think it's pretty cool that most people aren't playing ball and the ones who are; are not playing by the rules.

                              Nice.
                              What they do is send you emails warning you that you will be removed from the marketplace or that your product will be removed:

                              "Continued failure to implement the ClickBank Trust Badge will result in your account being flagged for removal from the affiliate marketplace and will eventually lead to product disapproval. "

                              The manipulation to the trust badge isn't allowed according to clickbank, they might be letting bigger vendors get away with it. It has to stay visible on the page when you scroll down.

                              The other thing that grabs my attention from some of the top vendors pages are the fake "doctor trusted" badges, it's too obvious they are fake and they are getting away with those.
                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10482455].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
    Justin. Forget this thread.

    Make your product. Make your website. Then figure out which platforms to sell on. Get started, and figure out the problems as you go.

    Don't aim to be perfect from the start - it's impossible - just deal with each issue as it comes along.

    In short: Better to do something imperfectly and have to fix the bugs and issues, than to do nothing.
    Signature
    ClickBank Vendor?
    - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
    - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
    - Killer Graphics for Your Site
    SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10475791].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Wayne
    There are a lot of vendors that haven't implemented the badge on their site yet though, so it will be interesting to see what Clickbank does about it.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10475889].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author joaquin112
    I doubt everyone will implement their badge. All of this has just been a really big headache. Personally I can't wait to move out of ClickBank.
    Signature

    Publish your digital course at Accomplisher.com. We create the video sales letter, drive affiliate traffic and split the profits with you. If you want to start making money by teaching online, submit your application here.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10476048].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author trevord92
    Justin: launch, ready or not (we'd still be waiting for Windows to launch if we were waiting for it to be perfect).

    Set yourself a date & stick to it.

    As Jon says, markets changed (the WSO/IM market seems to change big time about every 6 months) and if you've launched at least you'll know what's happening.

    You can always offer early adopters free upgrades - happens all the time in the software market, Kindle books have the same option.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10478194].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
    A question to all the vendors in this thread...

    Are any of your products listed in the clickbank marketplace on their main index page?

    I've asked a few vendors and it seems non of them have a product listed there and I can't find information about what's required to be included on the main clickbank marketplace.

    I mean the one on their main page with product images, not the marketplace where affiliates go.

    I want to know if regular vendors show up there or if it's just "special friends" of clickbank.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10478313].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      Originally Posted by Ardentify View Post

      A question to all the vendors in this thread...

      Are any of your products listed in the clickbank marketplace on their main index page?

      I've asked a few vendors and it seems non of them have a product listed there and I can't find information about what's required to be included on the main clickbank marketplace.

      I mean the one on their main page with product images, not the marketplace where affiliates go.

      I want to know if regular vendors show up there or if it's just "special friends" of clickbank.
      I haven't seen any emails with instructions for how to get on those pages. I'm thinking they are just hand-picked products that "showcase" what ClickBank is about. I doubt they can be producing many sales at all considering that consumers don't have a clue about ClickBank and the e-commerce setup they're using is terrible.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10478579].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
    How about if neither of you ruin a perfectly good thread by degrading this into a series of personal attacks.
    Signature

    Sid Hale
    Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10479349].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Dhira
    I'm not, and II'mstill ggetting some sales, so screw em.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10482473].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
      Originally Posted by Dhira View Post

      I'm not, and II'mstill ggetting some sales, so screw em.
      You should implement the badge for the time being, no need to take risks if you have active affiliates on clickbank.

      Let this be a lesson to all the vendors as well as affiliates, start using other networks as well that way any sudden changes by clickbank won't ruin you in the future.

      This badge was a very bad move by clickbank and they will never be able to regain our trust fully again. As we focus our attention away from clickbank they will keep shrinking.

      I guess in a sense we are to blame for this, we trusted clickbank too much to begin with, we should never forget that this is business and it's all about the money.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10482567].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author StevenUK
    Just had this threatening email through from ClickBank even though I HAVE added the TrustBadge to my website:

    -------------------------

    Attention,

    We have attempted to contact you several times, however, our records still indicate you have not yet implemented the ClickBank Trust Badge on the pages in your marketing funnel where a ClickBank Payment link is present in at least one of your accounts.

    Starting tomorrow, January 15th, 2016, any account not serving the ClickBank Trust Badge to the appropriate pages of your marketing funnel will be removed from the ClickBank Marketplace.


    Impacted ClickBank Account(s) :
    Account Name
    If you are absolutely certain the ClickBank Trust Badge is present on all of your account's sales pages where a ClickBank Payment link is present, please disregard this email.

    In addition, if no action is taken by January 31st, 2016, we will reserve the right to begin holding funds on your account until the ClickBank Trust Badge has been added.

    To avoid any interruption in activity on your account please take a moment to upload the small piece of JavaScript code that contains the ClickBank Trust Badge.

    Implementing the ClickBank Trust Badge is both quick and easy. To get started, visit this link for a step-by-step guide, complete with upload instructions and frequently asked questions.

    If you have any questions regarding this process please either reach out to your Account Manager or send an email to support@clickbank.com

    Thank you,

    The ClickBank Team
    ---------------------------------

    Has everybody received this email??
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10487678].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Dhira
    Received it too.... lol
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10487772].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
      I was ignoring most of the complaints about this trust badge business, but having witnessed more of these emails, it will undoubtedly be challenging for me to see reason to continue to conduct business with a company who is proving to be highly unprofessional, disorganised and inconsiderate as a result of setting rules they can't enforce, proposing threats based on guesswork, to compensate for their shortfalls.

      I can only hope things improve with CB reflecting upon how they are portraying themselves, because it's far from the best.


      Daniel
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10487802].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
        Just received the threatening email for all 3 ClickBank vendor accounts. Entitled "2nd notice"

        But I've been in compliance since on or about 26 November 2015!

        Oh, and I never received a first notice.

        Oh, and for the record, I never received most of the emails during the development of the trust badge (and the previous Always On Shopping Portal).

        In my view this is ridiculous, and a further hammer blow to my remaining faith in ClickBank.
        Signature
        ClickBank Vendor?
        - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
        - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
        - Killer Graphics for Your Site
        SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10487847].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author chetday
    I got the threatening email too, saying I hadn't responded to the first one even though I never received it. As soon as CB started the Trust Badge changes, I removed the few remaining products I was still selling with CB and closed one of the two accounts I still had active. I kept my main account open just in case I wanted to continue to sell a few CB products as an affiliate.

    My question is this... if I no longer have any items on my site listed as products on my CB account, why am I receiving emails threatening to withhold payments?

    Obviously, the software that they think checks for compliance doesn't work very well.

    I've been doing business with CB for something like fifteen years and have made them a lot of money both as a vendor and affiliate, but the new business model they're apparently wedded to these days isn't a model I'm willing to support.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10487857].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
    Originally Posted by chetday View Post

    Obviously, the software that they think checks for compliance doesn't work very well..
    If you have no active products, and no pages containingg clickbank payment links, then it's suggestive to me that they didn't do any checking, they just sent the message to you because you have a vendor account?

    As I said in the other thread...

    I have to wonder if they checked or they just sent it to everybody with a vendor account???

    If they wanted to send a reminder to everyone, that's what they should have done - rather than a this.

    @ClickBank: If you are reading, here is how you check, correctly:

    1. Log the date/time, IP address, & vendor account name each time the trust badge is loaded

    2. Log the date/time, IP, address, vendor account name, product id, & referring page each time a CB order form is loaded.

    3. Have a script that looks at log #2 and sees if it can find any entries where a vendor's order form is loaded by an IP without the same vendor's trust badge loaded by the same IP address in the prior say 1 hour.

    You can use this to generate a report of the exact vendor ids, products in that vendor & referring pages that didn't display the trust badge. There are no secret info, so you can even share this info with vendors to help them find/locate/fix any bugs with the badge.

    Even compliant vendors may generate occassional items in this report (e.g. the user was too quick for the trust badge JS to load, or the user had JS disabled in their browser, etc.) - but you know there is a potential compliance issue if the vendor say gets 100 order form loads with 0 or a handful of trust badge loads.... in that case you need to manually review that vendor or at least that product.

    4. One small fly in the ointment: your people have said in THIS thread that affiliates linking direct to a vendor's order form don't need to put in the trust badge. So you either need to exclude these items from log 1 completely (log them separately) or at least from the comparison.
    Signature
    ClickBank Vendor?
    - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
    - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
    - Killer Graphics for Your Site
    SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10487872].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author jasonthewebmaster
    Banned
    Another reason why clickbank has gone to shit. I have bitched about them for years turning to crap.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10487874].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      Someone once said that even bad press is better than no press at all. (just looking for the silver lining here, folks).

      I have to believe that their email/forum/help desk are all lit up like Christmas trees by now.

      I can't wait to see the "apology email" for this cock-up.
      Signature

      Sid Hale
      Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10487919].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author ElGuapo
        Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

        I can't wait to see the "apology email" for this cock-up.
        Here you go, Sid:


        Please disregard the email you may have received earlier ....

        Earlier today you may have received an email from us regarding the state of your account as it relates to the implementation of the ClickBank Trust Badge. We are very sorry you got this message as it was the result of an error on our end.

        We had a hiccup in our system that incorrectly identified your account as being out of compliance. If you have already implemented the ClickBank Trust Badge, then you are in good standing with us and no further action is required on your end.

        Again, we are very sorry you received this message in error.

        If you still have any questions or concerns, do not hesitate to get in touch with us.

        Sincerely,

        The ClickBank Tram


        Unconvincing stuff from the Clickbank 'Tram'.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10488816].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
          Here is the reply I received from support when I pointed out when I had been in compliance since 26 November 2015:

          Thank you for your inquiry! We apologize for any confusion this may have caused. Our system may have missed some of your pages with the Trust Badge on it, hence the message. However, as long as you keep the ClickBank Trust Badge on all your pages with a payment link your account will be fine.Thank you for your support and for taking the necessary steps to implement the Trust Badge on your pages.
          Please let me know if I can be of further assistance!
          I'm having a hard time believing "system may have missed some... pages with the Trust Badge on it" because, since everybody appears to have got the message, including inactive vendor accounts, I'm struggling to believe they even looked.

          Why can't they just be honest?

          They could have simply sent out a polite email yesterday reminding everyone to implement the badge, rather than issue threats and then claim it was a mistake.
          Signature
          ClickBank Vendor?
          - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
          - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
          - Killer Graphics for Your Site
          SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10488938].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author ElGuapo
            Originally Posted by SunilTanna View Post

            They could have simply sent out a polite email yesterday reminding everyone to implement the badge, rather than issue threats and then claim it was a mistake.
            It grates. I don't think it's controversial to say that vendors are Clickbank's customers. No vendors, no Clickbank. But massive changes were rushed in without our consultation, and then the (unjustified) red ink threats. This isn't the wining-and-dining one would expect. Do Clickbank believe they are the only game in town?

            Why can't they just be honest?
            This is the great irony: they want us to implement a trust badge, when their behaviour has cost them a great deal of trust.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10488972].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
              Vendors are both customers & suppliers to ClickBank. We're customers because we've paid them money (e.g. the activation fee), and we're suppliers, because they pay us for the products that they then resell to end-user customers.

              However they choose to categorize us, the bottom line is without vendors' products & content, ClickBank would have no products to sell, and no sales letters/pitches either. What's more vendors (and affiliates) provide ClickBank with nearly all the traffic that drives sales - since comparatively few people go to ClickBank.com looking to find a way to lose weight or train their dog or whatever.
              Signature
              ClickBank Vendor?
              - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
              - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
              - Killer Graphics for Your Site
              SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10489014].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
    I have a bad feeling about this, everyone better have a plan B in place I think the ship might sink.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10488077].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author nolan59
      got the snotty emails too, despite my remaining product being compliant.

      I want to see if Clickbank is going to actually go through with their threats because in my category, there are 51 products

      Of those 51 there are only 2 of us that are 100% compliant (mine being the only one on page 1 that is fully compliant)
      there are a further 14 who are semi compliant (they have added the badge, but also css to make the badge scroll off the screen so making it only visible above the fold and until you start scrolling)
      then there are 4 products that do not exist anymore when you follow their links and one which does not use Clickbank for the buy button anymore.

      In other words if Clickbank is not blowing smoke, then come tomorrow there should only be 2 products out of 51 left in my category.

      If they are lenient there will be 16 left. If CB is really willing to dump either 96% or 68% of it's vendors in just one category, plus goodness knows how many more in the rest of their affiliate marketplace, then they really do have a death wish and are trying to self destruct
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10488445].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Dhira
        Originally Posted by nolan59 View Post

        got the snotty emails too, despite my remaining product being compliant.

        I want to see if Clickbank is going to actually go through with their threats because in my category, there are 51 products

        Of those 51 there are only 2 of us that are 100% compliant (mine being the only one on page 1 that is fully compliant)
        there are a further 14 who are semi compliant (they have added the badge, but also css to make the badge scroll off the screen so making it only visible above the fold and until you start scrolling)
        then there are 4 products that do not exist anymore when you follow their links and one which does not use Clickbank for the buy button anymore.

        In other words if Clickbank is not blowing smoke, then come tomorrow there should only be 2 products out of 51 left in my category.

        If they are lenient there will be 16 left. If CB is really willing to dump either 96% or 68% of it's vendors in just one category, plus goodness knows how many more in the rest of their affiliate marketplace, then they really do have a death wish and are trying to self destruct
        LOL. after reading this, I decided I'm not going to put the badge up just to see what happens
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10489717].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
    Here's what is really sad...

    This thread was started 4 months ago when ClickBank first announced their intent to "brand" themselves on their vendors' web sites (the "Always On Shopping Portal" had already been implemented before that) and ClickBank has had significant feedback through this forum alone since that time.

    Many experienced marketers came out here to register concern over the potential negative impact on both vendors and affiliates, but the management at ClickBank has had their blinders on.

    I'm sure they have a fairly large investment already tied up in the creation of the AOSP and it only makes sense (for them) to try to capitalize on that investment by reducing/eliminating their current dependence on affiliate marketers, but...

    It's a crapshoot! A HUGE gamble - with the welfare of their vendors at stake.

    They are betting on the AOSP becoming self-sufficient with regard to traffic to the vendors' offers (the "Amazon" of digital products) - with little/no dependence on affiliate marketers.

    If they are successful, the affiliate marketers that were responsible for the bulk of ClickBank's traffic in the early days, and probably still represent their largest traffic source - will find themselves in direct competition with the AOSP and will be forced elsewhere to find product offers to promote.

    If they are NOT successful, vendors will lose the traffic from affiliates anyway. It is much easier for affiliates to replace an affiliate link than it is for a vendor to replace those affiliates and/or find other significant traffic sources.

    The big unknown is at what point do the 10% (or less) of the affiliates who can/do make a difference decide that they can do better promoting a similar product from some other platform.

    I don't know, and I can assure you that ClickBank doesn't know.

    I do know that the prudent business decision is to reduce (as much as possible) your dependence on outside influences and when outside influences have a potentially significant negative impact on your business - that outside influence should be eliminated.

    I frankly don't understand why any vendor or affiliate continues to "hang on", hoping that it will "all come out in the wash" - especially given the repeated failures we have all seen in ClickBank's attempts to figure out how to make this work not only for them, but for their business partners (YOU).
    Signature

    Sid Hale
    Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10489092].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author nolan59
      no apology email received....
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10489376].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
        Change can be a good thing.

        Prepare for the worst but hope for the best, and then if worse comes to worse it won't be a big deal, and if the change turns out in your favor, cool.

        I've always learned from my mentors that when things change you need to change with them or your business is gone.

        Redbox came out, Blockbuster didn't want to change, look what happened to them.

        Not liking the change is fine, but the change will happen whether we like it or not so it's time to sink or swim.

        Don't let Redbox turn you into Blockbuster and Hollywood Video.

        Leaving Clickbank is fine, preparing to leave is smart, but staying in and seeing what happens while prepared to leave at the drop of a dime is the smartest thing for anybody to do since nobody knows how big the impact will be on them and if it will be a positive or negative impact.

        Put your life jacket on, but just know the ship may not be sinking, it may just be getting a nice upgrade that you'll actually enjoy.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10489482].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author ElGuapo
          Think you set a world record for clichés in a single post there, Justin.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10489500].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
          Absolutely...

          Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

          Change can be a good thing.
          as long as it is controlled change.

          Unfortunately, neither the vendors nor the affiliates have any control in this situation.


          Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

          Prepare for the worst but hope for the best, and then if worse comes to worse it won't be a big deal, and if the change turns out in your favor, cool.
          PIck up a Powerball ticket while you're at it.

          Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

          Leaving Clickbank is fine, preparing to leave is smart, but staying in and seeing what happens while prepared to leave at thedrop of a dime is the smartest thing for anybody to do since nobody knows how big the impact will be on them and if it will be a positive or negative impact.
          This is rather naive, but probably to be expected from you Justin.

          You currently have no products for sale on any network, nor do you have any affiliates promoting those products, but seem to think you have a handle on how much work is required to get yourself set up to collect payment from a different source, and recruit affiliates through a new network. There's a little more involved than than just swapping out a "buy" button on your sales page.

          Of course, your attitude has been rather laid back with even getting your own product out the door so it's really no big surprise that you haven't a clue about the logistics required for these changes - nor the impact they might have on your business if you simply sit back and wait to see what happens.

          Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

          Put your life jacket on, but just know the ship may not be sinking, it may just be getting a nice upgrade that you'll actually enjoy.
          That's exactly what Blockbuster and Hollywood Video did. They stood on deck playing a waltz,while the Titanic went down.

          The way to get ahead (and stay there) in any business is not to wait until the impact of outside forces has been felt, but rather to anticipate the potential impact and change your business model so that those forces have no impact on you.

          So far... Clickbank hasn't even tried to explain how their new business model is going to help their business partners, but they have done an admirable job of showing us just how inept they are at implementing that model. The smartest thing you can do at this time is to make sure that their ineptitude will have NO impact on your own business.
          Signature

          Sid Hale
          Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10489672].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
            Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

            The way to get ahead (and stay there) in any business is not to wait until the impact of outside forces has been felt, but rather to anticipate the potential impact and change your business model so that those forces have no impact on you.
            I agree, changing your business model is the key here.

            I took a step back and made a new plan on how to go about everything without relying on clickbank. If clickbank sinks it will have less than 10% effect on my business.

            Everyone has to take a step back and figure out how to run their business where they don't need clickbank to make money.

            This is the beginning of the end for clickbank, instead of sending us all christmas gifts they force some badge on us
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10489748].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
              I'm amazed at how this is all playing out. ClickBank is twisting in the wind right now. Threatening and often inaccurate emails are being sent to their customers. Canned apology after apology is being offered as their user base responds to every blow with yelps of pain. All to advance a transparently unethical scheme that would benefit themselves at the expense of their vendors and affiliates - the people who fueled their rise and are the backbone of their company.

              What a sad time for ClickBank users (and former users).
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10489758].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
                Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                I'm amazed at how this is all playing out. ClickBank is twisting in the wind right now. Threatening and often inaccurate emails are being sent to their customers. Canned apology after apology is being offered as their user base responds to every blow with yelps of pain. All to advance a transparently unethical scheme that would benefit themselves at the expense of their vendors and affiliates - the people who fueled their rise and are the backbone of their company.

                What a sad time for ClickBank users (and former users).
                It's sad really, I don't know about the others but I've invested over $50,000 in my business in the past 6 months alone not to mention all the hard work and stress.

                All that risk taking and hard work and frustration so clickbank can make 7,5% + $1 per sale by simply sitting at their office and doing some easy routine work (pay vendors and affiliates).

                My guess is in the past year alone clickbank affiliates and vendors have invested millions of dollars and countless hours of work into their business.

                Clickbank was acting strange even before the trust badge issue.

                As soon as clickbank gets an email from customers they will refund them, instead of adressing support issues they'll refund everyone and their dog.

                It usually takes days for support to get back to your emails.

                Not only is clickbank running the network in a bad way, now somehow they feel they have some God given right to put their logo on vendors websites.

                People invest millions every year so clickbank can make money, in return we keep getting pushed around.

                If they keep this up I'll do like a few others in this thread and completely stay away from clickbank.

                In a sense the situation is pathetic and funny, so much talent in this thread yet we "NEED" clickbank.

                If I was clickbank I'd take a step back and lower the fees to 5% and get my act together... Before it's too late.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10489912].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                  Originally Posted by Ardentify View Post

                  It's sad really, I don't know about the others but I've invested over $50,000 in my business in the past 6 months alone not to mention all the hard work and stress.

                  All that risk taking and hard work and frustration so clickbank can make 7,5% + $1 per sale by simply sitting at their office and doing some easy routine work (pay vendors and affiliates).

                  My guess is in the past year alone clickbank affiliates and vendors have invested millions of dollars and countless hours of work into their business.

                  Clickbank was acting strange even before the trust badge issue.

                  As soon as clickbank gets an email from customers they will refund them, instead of adressing support issues they'll refund everyone and their dog.

                  It usually takes days for support to get back to your emails.

                  Not only is clickbank running the network in a bad way, now somehow they feel they have some God given right to put their logo on vendors websites.

                  People invest millions every year so clickbank can make money, in return we keep getting pushed around.

                  If they keep this up I'll do like a few others in this thread and completely stay away from clickbank.

                  In a sense the situation is pathetic and funny, so much talent in this thread yet we "NEED" clickbank.

                  If I was clickbank I'd take a step back and lower the fees to 5% and get my act together... Before it's too late.
                  People SHOULD be able to EASILY return anything they want to return.

                  If you buy something at Walmart, and decide to return it, do you want to jump through hoops? NO.

                  Put your customers FIRST.

                  If what you sell wasn't worth it to them, you should GLADLY refund them, and want them to be refunded as easily as possible.

                  You live in a world of take take take instead of give give give.

                  I'm happy my customers will be able to easily and effortlessly get a refund if they aren't 100% happy with their purchase.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10492595].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
                    Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                    Yes, you're right Blockbuster and Hollywood video sat on the sinking ship because THEY WERE AFRAID OF CHANGE!
                    Which is exactly what you propose to do...

                    (Wait and see what happens. Maybe I'll get lucky and there will be fewer vendors in Clickbank for me to compete with.)

                    You propose to wait it out, rather than making the effort to fully understand all your options and then making an informed decision about how to proceed.

                    Sorry Justin, but inaction is not very conducive to success.

                    If you want to be so afraid of change, consider yourself Blockbuster, and consider me Netflix.
                    LOL - I'm not afraid of change in the least.
                    In fact, I thrive on it.

                    Change is what creates new business opportunities and the potential for growth, but you have to be able to recognize that change (the earlier the better) and willing to take action in order to reap the benefit of change (or avoid the negative aspects).

                    Change is what created the business opportunities that have allowed me to be totally self-employed for the past 30+ years.

                    This change could be good, bad, or basically make no difference.

                    All I'm saying is being so afraid of change can quickly put you out of business.
                    I think maybe this is where the misunderstanding came into play.
                    You seem to assume that the objections to ClickBank's new policies were made out of a fear of change.

                    They weren't. If anything, comments were made more out of disgust with those changes, and to raise the alarm for others (who might not see the implications of those changes) so that they might also react to the changes. Not because of any fear of those changes, but as a matter of understanding all the implications and helping everyone decide if/how they should react.

                    Of course, one could simply stand transfixed in the middle of the road, like a deer in the headlights, and take no action at all.

                    Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                    People SHOULD be able to EASILY return anything they want to return.
                    No one ever said that they shouldn't.

                    But, by contractually allowing ClickBank to pretend to be a retailer (they are really just the cashier), vendors have left ClickBank in charge of making the refund decision.

                    In the past eight years I have only denied 1 refund request. If I had been selling that product through ClickBank, I would not have had that option. The decision would have been ClickBank's, and I would have been bound by their decision, because they simply withhold payment from the vendor.

                    I'm happy my customers will be able to easily and effortlessly get a refund if they aren't 100% happy with their purchase.
                    ...but then of course, you haven't had to deal with serial refunders, yet.
                    Signature

                    Sid Hale
                    Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10492670].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                      Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

                      Which is exactly what you propose to do...

                      (Wait and see what happens. Maybe I'll get lucky and there will be fewer vendors in Clickbank for me to compete with.)

                      You propose to wait it out, rather than making the effort to fully understand all your options and then making an informed decision about how to proceed.

                      Sorry Justin, but inaction is not very conducive to success.



                      LOL - I'm not afraid of change in the least.
                      In fact, I thrive on it.

                      Change is what creates new business opportunities and the potential for growth, but you have to be able to recognize that change (the earlier the better) and willing to take action in order to reap the benefit of change (or avoid the negative aspects).

                      Change is what created the business opportunities that have allowed me to be totally self-employed for the past 30+ years.



                      I think maybe this is where the misunderstanding came into play.
                      You seem to assume that the objections to ClickBank's new policies were made out of a fear of change.

                      They weren't. If anything, comments were made more out of disgust with those changes, and to raise the alarm for others (who might not see the implications of those changes) so that they might also react to the changes. Not because of any fear of those changes, but as a matter of understanding all the implications and helping everyone decide if/how they should react.

                      Of course, one could simply stand transfixed in the middle of the road, like a deer in the headlights, and take no action at all.



                      No one ever said that they shouldn't.

                      But, by contractually allowing ClickBank to pretend to be a retailer (they are really just the cashier), vendors have left ClickBank in charge of making the refund decision.

                      In the past eight years I have only denied 1 refund request. If I had been selling that product through ClickBank, I would not have had that option. The decision would have been ClickBank's, and I would have been bound by their decision, because they simply withhold payment from the vendor.



                      ...but then of course, you haven't had to deal with serial refunders, yet.
                      Serial refunds won't bother me for the same reason torrent down loaders won't bother me.

                      Some people just want it for free and aren't going to buy it no matter what so it's not even me losing money because if they couldn't get their hands on a free copy they wouldn't buy it anyways, and for the people who do steal, or return and get massive value they may buy my next product, or they may talk about me to someone and that person could end up buying everything I sell or recommend so it's not a big deal.

                      And with people who return, I don't care if every person that buys my product returns it. I don't want one single dollar from one single person if they aren't INSANELY HAPPY that I have their money.

                      I'll only do win-win business and nothing else.

                      If someone even really liked the product and wasn't going to return it and I knew that they felt like even though they liked it and got value, if they could go back in time they WOULDN'T click the buy button, I would WANT that person to change their mind and actually go ahead and get a refund.

                      I believe in win-win situations only. I believe it's better to give than to take.

                      If anyone wants a refund for any reason I definitely want them to get one, no questions asked, no hassle no effort.

                      I've never had one return as an affiliate because I make it clear as day what people are getting into so they make a logical choice instead of an emotional buy.

                      My product will get a lot of returns I'm sure because the sales copy will definitely cause that impulse buy, but people that get to my sales page from me will know to see passed all the sales tactics, but people who find my product from affiliates or without it being directly recommended from me, I'm sure I'll get returns but my return rate will be the lowest in my niche besides one other vendor, and I welcome the returns with opened arms because I know my affiliates will be pushing people to buy stuff and over hyping it and all this stuff, so if someone or many someones want a refund, that's fine by me.

                      Whoever wants a refund, go ahead and get a refund.

                      I don't understand why anybody would ever want someones money if that person regrets giving you their money. That's not right.

                      As for the whole Clickbank badge I guess if you truly think the ship is going down then start setting up your new pages and stuff.

                      I just see it as there's nothing I can do about it, and I'm curious so I'll ride the wave and see where it goes.

                      Some people could be jumping ship, and others getting their life jackets and life boats ready but really all that's happening is the ship is getting a nice upgrade.

                      I understand the ship really could be sinking though so I'm not saying not to get your life jackets and life boats ready, but just jumping off the ship right now seems a little 'overboard' to me.

                      Anyways, it's good people are speaking their concerns, Clickbank IS listening so it's good people keep on saying how upset they are, but it looks like some sort of change is going to happen no matter what.

                      Hopefully in the end it's a win-win-win-win

                      win for Clickbank, win for vendors, win for affiliates, and a win for the customers.
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10493603].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                        Some people could be jumping ship, and others getting their life jackets and life boats ready but really all that's happening is the ship is getting a nice upgrade.
                        What's happening is that after failing in their scheme to take over all of their customers' websites, put their own brand at the top, and steal everyone's traffic, ClickBank's unethical executives have changed their approach and are now trying to get their foot in the door with this "badge." It should be seen for what it is and roundly rejected.

                        it looks like some sort of change is going to happen no matter what.
                        Only if enough people accept that idea does it become true. We could just as easily have said the original version of this scheme was going to happen no matter what. But we rejected the idea, and it didn't happen.
                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10493627].message }}
                        • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                          Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                          What's happening is that after failing in their scheme to take over all of their customers' websites, put their own brand at the top, and steal everyone's traffic, ClickBank's unethical executives have changed their approach and are now trying to get their foot in the door with this "badge." It should be seen for what it is and roundly rejected.



                          Only if enough people accept that idea does it become true. We could just as easily have said the original version of this scheme was going to happen no matter what. But we rejected the idea, and it didn't happen.
                          I agree with you.
                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10494018].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
                        Justin,

                        I know you see this philosophy quoted around here a lot...
                        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                        Serial refunds won't bother me for the same reason torrent down loaders won't bother me.

                        Some people just want it for free and aren't going to buy it no matter what so it's not even me losing money because if they couldn't get their hands on a free copy they wouldn't buy it anyways, and for the people who do steal, or return and get massive value they may buy my next product, or they may talk about me to someone and that person could end up buying everything I sell or recommend so it's not a big deal.
                        and it may be valid if you're only selling a $1.98 product, or you're letting affiliates sell at 100% commissions for the sake of simply building a buyers' list - as you're not really getting any turn from your product, anyway. You might as well be giving it out at a free download site yourself.

                        But remember that probably 90+% of the members on this forum are primarily affiliates or are simply re-selling something that they paid very little for. They have little/no experience actually creating a product from scratch, or have (at most) created an ebook and used resell rights/PLR products for their bonuses. In other words, they have very little invested in the creation of their product.

                        They're just repeating what they heard elsewhere, because it's easier than actually trying to do something about it. Because they don't know how (or don't want to do the work), they accept serial refunders, affiliate fraud, and/or torrent downloads.

                        They assume (because they read it somewhere) that their best option is to include links to other products inside their own product, so that the fraudster is still a potential customer. In reality, they are just giving the fraudster a link to yet another product he/she can refund.

                        Believe me, if you truly put a lot of effort into the creation of a unique product (even an ebook) and focus on quality and over delivering to your customers... you will care!!!!

                        If you value the fact that your customers reached into their wallets and paid your asking price, you will be offended by serial refunders because it is not you, but your customers (the ones who paid good money for your product) who are being cheated!!!

                        I'll only do win-win business and nothing else.
                        If a buyer keeps and uses a copy of your digital product even after he/she has received a refund from you, there is only one winner - and it is not you (nor is it a customer).

                        As for the whole Clickbank badge I guess if you truly think the ship is going down then start setting up your new pages and stuff.
                        Justin, I'm immune.
                        They can't hurt me because I haven't had any skin in the ClickBank game in a number of years, now.

                        My input here is intended only to help others understand what is happening and how they can shield themselves from the potential repercussions.

                        I just see it as there's nothing I can do about it, and I'm curious so I'll ride the wave and see where it goes.
                        I think, more accurately, you said in an earlier post that you just weren't inclined to put forth the effort... that you didn't want to take the time to research other platforms and learn how they may/may not be a better fit.

                        That's not quite the same as "nothing I can do about it".
                        Signature

                        Sid Hale
                        Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10493758].message }}
                        • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                          Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

                          Justin,

                          I know you see this philosophy quoted around here a lot...


                          and it may be valid if you're only selling a $1.98 product, or you're letting affiliates sell at 100% commissions for the sake of simply building a buyers' list - as you're not really getting any turn from your product, anyway. You might as well be giving it out at a free download site yourself.

                          But remember that probably 90+% of the members on this forum are primarily affiliates or are simply re-selling something that they paid very little for. They have little/no experience actually creating a product from scratch, or have (at most) created an ebook and used resell rights/PLR products for their bonuses. In other words, they have very little invested in the creation of their product.

                          They're just repeating what they heard elsewhere, because it's easier than actually trying to do something about it. Because they don't know how (or don't want to do the work), they accept serial refunders, affiliate fraud, and/or torrent downloads.

                          They assume (because they read it somewhere) that their best option is to include links to other products inside their own product, so that the fraudster is still a potential customer. In reality, they are just giving the fraudster a link to yet another product he/she can refund.

                          Believe me, if you truly put a lot of effort into the creation of a unique product (even an ebook) and focus on quality and over delivering to your customers... you will care!!!!

                          If you value the fact that your customers reached into their wallets and paid your asking price, you will be offended by serial refunders because it is not you, but your customers (the ones who paid good money for your product) who are being cheated!!!



                          If a buyer keeps and uses a copy of your digital product even after he/she has received a refund from you, there is only one winner - and it is not you (nor is it a customer).



                          Justin, I'm immune.
                          They can't hurt me because I haven't had any skin in the ClickBank game in a number of years, now.

                          My input here is intended only to help others understand what is happening and how they can shield themselves from the potential repercussions.



                          I think, more accurately, you said in an earlier post that you just weren't inclined to put forth the effort... that you didn't want to take the time to research other platforms and learn how they may/may not be a better fit.

                          That's not quite the same as "nothing I can do about it".
                          Outside of this thread, I barely even exist on this forum, and I never come here for advice, ever. I definitely did not get my point of view from reading this forum.

                          Hey, if people want to return my product, they should be able to just like if I go buy a TV right now, I can go return it if I want to.

                          I expect my customers to be a higher quality of people than to just buy my stuff, feel like it was more than worth it, and then return it, but if that's what happens it is what it is.

                          I used to be a pizza delivery boy and my old district manager would always tell me to give out a free pizza even if I knew 100% I was getting cheated because he said it's better to let 100 people cheat you out of a free pizza than it is to not give a free pizza to the one person that actually deserved it.

                          That doesn't exactly go hand in hand with what we're talking about here, but no I do not and will not create garbage to cheat people, and I also do not care at all if every single person that buys my product, returns it.

                          That tells me something about my product, and I'll have to fix my mistakes in my next one.

                          I don't plan on that happening, I'm fairly confident I'll have one of the lowest return rates in the history of Clickbank, but I don't know the future, maybe I'll have the highest return rates in the history of Clickbank.

                          Either way, I stand by my views and I will NEVER want someones money if they feel like they got ripped off.

                          Even in the case when they feel it was worth it and still get a refund where it's a lose for me, and a win from them, I'm okay with that.

                          I will never put an affiliate link in a product I charge money for.

                          Would never even consider it.

                          If someone pulls a lose-win on me or torrent downloads from me it's okay because they may become a lifetime customer of mine. For all I know, they'll torrent download my first 3 products, and then buy from me when I release something worth more than all of those put together.

                          I'm not looking for a quick dollar, I'm building a business, this stuff you're saying seems very petty to me, I'll never want someones money if they regret giving their money to me, so I'm perfectly fine with any and all returns, even a 100% return rate, I'm fine with it, and I'll think about what I can do differently with my next product.

                          You are kind of right saying I want Clickbank because it's easier than going on my own, but eventually I will have to go on my own anyways because I plan on having very expensive products out and Clickbank has a cap on how much you can sell something for.

                          So yes, for now I definitely love how much simpler they will make my life, but isn't that the reason that every single solitary clickbank vendor uses clickbank?

                          It's not that I don't want to put forth the effort ever, it's just right now there's no reason to.

                          90% of my niche doesn't use clickbank because they price their stuff insanely high.

                          That's what I'm reaching for, but in the meantime, heck yea I want to make my life easier with Clickbank why not? I'm not selling my first product for 500-2,000 so why figure out the headache that goes with selling something that high?

                          You say it like I'm lazy or stupid and that's why I want to use Clickbank and that's just not the case.

                          I wouldn't be surprised if I become the most successful person to ever even touch this forum.
                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10494044].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
            Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

            Absolutely...



            as long as it is controlled change.

            Unfortunately, neither the vendors nor the affiliates have any control in this situation.




            PIck up a Powerball ticket while you're at it.



            This is rather naive, but probably to be expected from you Justin.

            You currently have no products for sale on any network, nor do you have any affiliates promoting those products, but seem to think you have a handle on how much work is required to get yourself set up to collect payment from a different source, and recruit affiliates through a new network. There's a little more involved than than just swapping out a "buy" button on your sales page.

            Of course, your attitude has been rather laid back with even getting your own product out the door so it's really no big surprise that you haven't a clue about the logistics required for these changes - nor the impact they might have on your business if you simply sit back and wait to see what happens.



            That's exactly what Blockbuster and Hollywood Video did. They stood on deck playing a waltz,while the Titanic went down.

            The way to get ahead (and stay there) in any business is not to wait until the impact of outside forces has been felt, but rather to anticipate the potential impact and change your business model so that those forces have no impact on you.

            So far... Clickbank hasn't even tried to explain how their new business model is going to help their business partners, but they have done an admirable job of showing us just how inept they are at implementing that model. The smartest thing you can do at this time is to make sure that their ineptitude will have NO impact on your own business.
            Yes, you're right Blockbuster and Hollywood video sat on the sinking ship because THEY WERE AFRAID OF CHANGE!

            That's my point exactly.

            If they weren't afraid of change then they could still be in business, but when change came whether they liked it or not THEY REFUSED to change, AND THEY SUNK.

            That's EXACTLY my point.

            When change happens if you're so afraid of it, you may notice yourself left behind while the people that went with the change rose up to the top and became REDBOX and NETFLIX.

            If you want to be so afraid of change, consider yourself Blockbuster, and consider me Netflix.

            I'm not afraid of the changes, and if it's not that easy to switch payment processors and stuff then how come further back in this thread you were all arguing with me saying how simple it is to do and I kept saying no it's not simple and that's why I want Clickbank and you guys kept on going on no it's so easy with out Clickbank blah blah blah, and now it's so hard without them? Lol.

            This change could be good, bad, or basically make no difference.

            All I'm saying is being so afraid of change can quickly put you out of business.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10492587].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Max Anderson
    This badge is the sole reason I stopped promoting Clickbank.... Since it was introduced my conversions went down by almost 300%!

    I mean what the F**K is this S**T?

    Have you stopped caring about your affiliates and vendors?
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10494064].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
      Originally Posted by Max Anderson View Post

      This badge is the sole reason I stopped promoting Clickbank.... Since it was introduced my conversions went down by almost 300%!

      I mean what the F**K is this S**T?

      Have you stopped caring about your affiliates and vendors?
      This is hard for me to believe, but I'm not calling you a liar.

      What niche do you promote in where you had such a drastic change?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10495529].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
        Good news for everyone.

        Top vendors are not complying with this badge.

        I clicked search again with the search box empty and 2 vendors had the badge manipulated at the top of the page, and one vendor was in compliance, and the rest don't have the badge at all.

        As long as these top vendors refuse to comply, there's nothing Clickbank can do about it.

        They will have a choice to either let vendors not use the badge or kick all the money makers off of Clickbank and go out of business.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10495537].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author StevenUK
          Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

          Good news for everyone.

          Top vendors are not complying with this badge.


          .
          I know a ClickBank seller that is in the top 100 in the world on ClickBank, who told me that as a top 100 seller they can set their own refund rules, so they can also get away with not putting the badge on, and probably have permission to do so.
          Signature

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10500890].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
            Originally Posted by StevenUK View Post

            I know a ClickBank seller that is in the top 100 in the world on ClickBank, who told me that as a top 100 seller they can set their own refund rules, so they can also get away with not putting the badge on, and probably have permission to do so.
            Actually according to this everyone can determine their own refund policy.

            Mark
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10500895].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author StevenUK
              Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

              Actually according to this everyone can determine their own refund policy.

              Mark
              No they cannot, I am talking about the removal of the standard 60 day return, top sellers do not have to advertise that fact, and can stipulate their own guarantee rules.
              Signature

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10501260].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
                Originally Posted by StevenUK View Post

                No they cannot, I am talking about the removal of the standard 60 day return, top sellers do not have to advertise that fact, and can stipulate their own guarantee rules.
                The Client Contract says that all vendors may choose their own return policy:

                4l. You will establish an appropriate return, replacement and/or cancellation policy for Your Products ("Vendor Return Policy"). Your Vendor Return Policy must fall within the range of "no refunds" to allowing refunds or replacements up to sixty (60) days after the date of purchase (i.e., a 30-day refund policy or a 45-day refund policy would each be acceptable, if appropriate). If You believe that a Vendor Return Policy longer than sixty (60) days after the date of purchase is appropriate for Your Products, ClickBank will review such a request, and in its sole discretion, may allow an extended Vendor Return Policy. You can only provide such an extended Vendor Return Policy with ClickBank's written consent.

                You will ensure that the Vendor Return Policy is clearly and conspicuously posted for customers to review prior to purchasing Your Products.

                ClickBank reserves the right to alter or override Your Vendor Return Policy if You abuse ClickBank's flexible Return and Cancellation Policy, if Your Vendor Return Policy is not appropriate for the Product(s), if the charged back sales (defined in the Accounting Policy) are excessive, or for any other reason ClickBank deems appropriate, in its sole discretion.
                Mark
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10501347].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
                  Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

                  The Client Contract says that all vendors may choose their own return policy:



                  Mark
                  Every Clickbank product I've ever seen ever has a 60 day money back guaranty so either what you posted is a lie on their end, or 60 day money back gives the highest conversion rate.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10501460].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
                    Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                    Every Clickbank product I've ever seen ever has a 60 day money back guaranty so either what you posted is a lie on their end,
                    ...or it'snot

                    (since it is doubtful that "every ClickBank product you've ever seen" is even a representative sampling of all of the products listed in the ClickBank marketplace)

                    Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

                    or 60 day money back gives the highest conversion rate.
                    ...or it doesn't

                    (but rather a majority of Internet Marketers are like sheep, and simply use the 60 day money back guarantee because they read somewhere that it would increase their conversion rate).


                    Personally, I think that the proliferation of the 60 day money back guarantee is more likely the result of Paypal's refund policy than ClickBank's, but I'm probably no more qualified to draw that conclusion than you were in drawing yours.
                    Signature

                    Sid Hale
                    Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10501577].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author StevenUK
                  Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

                  The Client Contract says that all vendors may choose their own return policy:



                  Mark
                  I am talking about ClickBank order forms, once the buy now link has been clicked, ClickBank themselves add the standard "60 day return policy if not satisfied" to this order form.

                  Top sellers can have that message changed to not mention the 60 refund guarantee. Standard ClickBank sellers cannot change this message on the order form.
                  Signature

                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10504473].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
                    I know what you were talking about. I haven't used CB as a vendor in years and was getting ready to use them again about the time this whole header thing came up. As part of my "due diligence" I always look at contracts, etc. I was surprised to find the language I quoted previously.

                    In this case, it seems that CB is at odds with itself as to what the refund policy is. They say in one place, as I pointed out, that a vendor - any vendor- can choose their own refund period (within 60 days but it could be shorter like 20 days) or even decide to not refund at all. Yet the return policy on the order form and the accompanying link says something totally different. It says a vendor cannot change the 60 day refund period.

                    Another reason to question what's going on with the when their own legal and support documents contradict each other.

                    Mark

                    Originally Posted by StevenUK View Post

                    I am talking about ClickBank order forms, once the buy now link has been clicked, ClickBank themselves add the standard "60 day return policy if not satisfied" to this order form.

                    Top sellers can have that message changed to not mention the 60 refund guarantee. Standard ClickBank sellers cannot change this message on the order form.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10504488].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author JMSD
              Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

              Actually according to this everyone can determine their own refund policy.

              Mark
              That's what I thought but when I changed the 60 days to 14 days, a few weeks ago, Clickbank emailed me after I applied for approval to say that my refund terms were not CB compliant. Yet I see various sites that use Clickbank quoting terms well within the 60-day period. Very confusing.

              Jamie
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10591934].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author agmccall
                Well, I was at the clickbank marketplace the other day looking for products to pormote. I found one that I wanted and looked at the sales page, the page looked good, no leaks or whatnot. Although they did not have the badge and when I clicked the "Buy Now" button, I got a message that the product could not be purchased at this time, I guess clickbank shut it down.

                I found another product that also did not have the badge, but they put the clickbank logo in the buy now button above the credit card logo's and the checkout process worked fine. This logo was not clickable.

                Has clickbank softened their new policy?

                al
                Signature

                "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10614892].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
                  Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

                  Has clickbank softened their new policy?
                  I would think clickbank could help you with this, did you contact them. What did they say?

                  ---------------------------------

                  My reply above is exactly the same as the one you gave someone else today.
                  Variations of which you have tediously provided again and again in this forum.


                  .
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10615307].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author agmccall
                    Originally Posted by Harvey Segal View Post

                    I would think clickbank could help you with this, did you contact them. What did they say?

                    ---------------------------------

                    My reply above is exactly the same as the one you gave someone else today.
                    Variations of which you have tediously provided again and again in this forum.


                    .
                    The difference is, my question is rhetorical.

                    And I will continue to post that advice again and again and again on this forum.

                    But, thanks for caring

                    al
                    Signature

                    "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10615442].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
            Originally Posted by StevenUK View Post

            I know a ClickBank seller that is in the top 100 in the world on ClickBank, who told me that as a top 100 seller they can set their own refund rules, so they can also get away with not putting the badge on, and probably have permission to do so.
            Good stuff!

            I plan on being one of the top vendors so that's A-Okay with me.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10501086].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
    Regarding clickbank refunds I have moved a product from clickbank to another network and the refund rate for the exact same product/website went down from over 15% to less than 3%.

    The same top affiliate that was sending the majority of the traffic came along as well, so the source of the traffic isn't the cause either.

    It has nothing to do with the quality of the product, as the product on the example above is one of the best on the topic.

    The problem is how clickbank handles customer support, they will issue refunds to everyone and their dog because it's the easy thing to do, with no regards to how hard the vendor and affiliate worked to get that customer to buy.

    A customer will ask a question to the vendor and before you can reply you get a email from clickbank letting you know they've been refunded and there's nothing you can do about it.

    The same product on clickbank will make me lose 15% of the sales do to refunds, while the exact same product will make me lose only 3% of that money on other networks. For 1,000 sales I'd lose 150 sales if I'd stick to clickbank instead of 30 sales lost outside clickbank.

    If the 1,000 sales in the above example were affiliate referred sales and the profit per sale as a vendor was $10, I'd be at loss $1,500 ($10 x 150 sales) simply because I chose to stay with clickbank. The affiliates would lose around 3X that amount. In total affiliates and the vendor would lose over $6,000 which is A LOT of money!

    While with another network the loss would be $300 for the vendor and 3X that for the affiliate and around $1,200 total. The affiliates and the vendor gets to keep $4,800 to spend however they like (reinvest?).

    This is based on REAL exprience, and it has nothing to do with the quality of the product as I like some others aim to over deliver.

    Clickbank is well known to issue refunds fast if you ask for it, but this is true for the IM/MMO niches, the example above consists of customers in a niche that have never heard of clickbank.

    Edit: The refund example above is based on a real statistics from a product/website that gets around 2,000 visitors per day mostly targetted, I actually went into the accounts and counted all the sales versus refunds. No guessing involved!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10494225].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
    How are the sales after the trust badge implementation for some of you?

    I think it's too early to tell, but if many are having similar results it should give us a general idea of how the trust badge is affecting sales.

    Across various forums some are saying they are making more sales while others are saying they are making less sales.

    Logic tells me any distraction from a sales message will be bad for sales, would like to hear some real results based on experience.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10496820].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
      One of my main offers as an affiliate has no sign of the badge, and the buy button doesn't show up for like over 30 minutes I'm guessing.

      I remember someone saying even if they pull out of Clickbank my hoplink will still work, is this right?

      Should I just let the video play until the buy button pops up and make sure it goes to a clickbank payment form?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10497176].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Ardentify
        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

        One of my main offers as an affiliate has no sign of the badge, and the buy button doesn't show up for like over 30 minutes I'm guessing.

        I remember someone saying even if they pull out of Clickbank my hoplink will still work, is this right?

        Should I just let the video play until the buy button pops up and make sure it goes to a clickbank payment form?
        Unless clickbank bans that product your hop links will still work, but you won't earn anything if they decide to sell through other network or paypal etc.

        Yes do that, just let the video play in the background while you do other things. Or you might look at page source to see if you can find the order link that will appear later on.

        If they have a exit pop-up where you are asked to stay on the page and there is sales letter page as well, then you'll be able to see the order link there as well. However the order link on the video page and the exit page might not be the same, so it's better to check both.

        I would stay away from promoting clickbank offers that don't have the badge right now, there is a chance they might get shut down by clicbank.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10497197].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

        One of my main offers as an affiliate has no sign of the badge, and the buy button doesn't show up for like over 30 minutes I'm guessing.

        I remember someone saying even if they pull out of Clickbank my hoplink will still work, is this right?

        Should I just let the video play until the buy button pops up and make sure it goes to a clickbank payment form?
        If the vendor pulls out of clickbank, the hop link will still send visitors to the right page, but you won't get any commission if a sale results.
        Signature
        ClickBank Vendor?
        - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
        - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
        - Killer Graphics for Your Site
        SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10497334].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Wayne
    If the hoplink is still working, then the vendor hasn't removed the product from Clickbank. It would depend on what the vendor has the commission percentage set at if you get a commission or not. If he doesn't remove the product from the marketplace but drops the commission rate to 0% then you would not get a commission. You would need to check the commission rate on Clickbank to see what you would earn. If the vendor removes the product from Clickbank then the hoplink will no longer work.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10497438].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      Hi Wayne,

      This is true ONLY if the vendor has also left the ClickBank order button/link on the sales page.

      Originally Posted by Wayne View Post

      If the hoplink is still working, then the vendor hasn't removed the product from Clickbank. It would depend on what the vendor has the commission percentage set at if you get a commission or not. If he doesn't remove the product from the marketplace but drops the commission rate to 0% then you would not get a commission. You would need to check the commission rate on Clickbank to see what you would earn. If the vendor removes the product from Clickbank then the hoplink will no longer work.
      A vendor can leave the product listed in ClickBank and even leave the commission percentage set, but the affiliate will NOT receive commissions on orders if the vendor replaces the order button on that page with a non-ClickBank button.

      For instance...
      a vendor can choose to continue taking advantage of the advertising resources of ClickBank's affiliates by leaving the product listed at ClickBank, but replace the order button on their sales page with one that directs the buyer to a different payment processor (i.e. their own merchant account, or to a non-ClickBank service that provides payment processor interface).

      The vendor's product will still appear in ClickBank's Affiliate Marketplace, and the affiliate's hoplink will still work, because it is a ClickBank URL that redirects to the vendor's sales page AFTER writing a CB affiliate cookie to the visitor's machine.

      But... if the order button code on the vendor's sales page has been replaced with that of another processor (i.e. JVZoo, W+, RAP, Digiresults, etc.), the CB affiliate cookie is of no value.

      That cookie is never seen again by the ClickBank server, payment will NOT go to ClickBank, NO sale will be recorded at ClickBank, and NO affiliate commissions will be paid to the ClickBank affiliate.

      This has been an issue for years at ClickBank, but ClickBank has failed to adequately address the problem.
      Signature

      Sid Hale
      Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10497564].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Wayne
    Sid,
    That's true if the order link on the sales page has been replaced, I was just thinking of that and was just going to edit my post, but see you have already corrected me on that part. Eventually that vendor will be removed from the marketplace though when there are no more sales through Clickbank.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10497640].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
      Originally Posted by Wayne View Post

      Sid,
      That's true if the order link on the sales page has been replaced, I was just thinking of that and was just going to edit my post, but see you have already corrected me on that part. Eventually that vendor will be removed from the marketplace though when there are no more sales through Clickbank.
      That's not corret either.

      If a vendor doesnt make a sale for a few weeks, cb sends an automated email asking whether they wish to maintain
      ther marketplace listing. if the vendor clicks the link, they keep their listing.

      Even putting this aside, the vendor only needs to make 1 sale, which need not be from the same page that affiliates send traffic to, to maintain their listing.

      Plus the hop link still goes to the vendor's page, even if the vendor is not listed in the market place.
      Signature
      ClickBank Vendor?
      - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
      - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
      - Killer Graphics for Your Site
      SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10498484].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
    Eventually, perhaps - but in the meantime, affiliates may have been promoting those products with zero potential for a return on their investment.

    ClickBank has been trying for a couple of years now to put some teeth into their standards for listing a new product, but have seen (at best) mixed results when trying to cull out existing products.
    Signature

    Sid Hale
    Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10497835].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
      Thanks everyone
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10497943].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Wayne
    In years past you had to make one sale every 30 days to maintain your listing in the marketplace. I haven't been involved as a vendor for several years so wasn't aware of any changes to that. But if the vendor removes the pay link there gravity will drop to 0 or near zero eventually, and they won't get any new affiliates. It's true that any affiliates that already have their hoplinks out there will lose out on commissions, but if they don't become aware of this in a short while they are probably not a very active affiliate for the vendor. But the vendor will benefit from the stray orders that come in from many hoplinks still out there. I don't think it would be a major source of his income for very long though.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10498978].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author SunilTanna
      Wayne, you are absolutely right that if affiliates are paying attention they will soon spot the problem.

      And it is also true (nobody's mentioned it yet), that CB has done it this way for very good reasons (ones that I agree with). Among other things, they are a retailer, and do not demand that vendors sell exclusively through them. Nor do they demand that all their vendors are 100% focussed on direct marketing through CB and their affiliates.

      But this discussion, does raise some important things for understanding CB:

      1. We can not rely on the number of vendors listed in the market place as being an accurate count of ClickBank vendors (a better stat would be how many vendors have actually made sales in the last X days - info I am sure that CB has, although they choose not to share it). Not only may the marketplace count some inactive vendors, but additionally some active vendors choose not to be listed in the market place.


      2. Affiliates need to pay some attention as you said!
      Signature
      ClickBank Vendor?
      - Protect Your Thank You Pages & Downloads
      - Give Your Affiliates Multiple Landing Pages (Video Demo)
      - Killer Graphics for Your Site
      SPECIAL WSO PRICES FOR WARRIORS + GET THE "CLICKBANK DISCOUNT" TOO!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10499020].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
    ClickBank has been getting away with tricking the credit card companies for years.

    Get used to more changes.
    Signature

    Do you want a 9 figure copywriter and biz owner to Write With You? I'll work with you, on zoom, to help write your copy or client copy... while you learn from one of the few copywriters to legit hit 9 figures in gross sales! Discover More

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10499449].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
      Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti View Post

      ClickBank has been getting away with tricking the credit card companies for years.

      Get used to more changes.
      That's cool, so maybe all the reasons they're giving for doing everything they're doing is legit.

      I'm almost done with my first product, then gotta work on 3 bonuses I'm adding and then gotta make my sales page, write some bomb copy, figure out how to deliver my product, figure out how to add the badge, and then I'll be opened for business!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10499714].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      Hey Mark,

      Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti View Post

      ClickBank has been getting away with tricking the credit card companies for years.
      I'm sorry, but I question the validity of your claim.

      I seriously doubt that you can back up such a statement with any credible evidence of fraudulent behavior on the part of ClickBank with regard to their dealings with the credit card companies.
      Signature

      Sid Hale
      Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10499763].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author entrepreneurjay
    I am not a big fan either but Clickbank has to do what Clickbank has to do to protect there brand and vendors.

    I am a big fan of JVZoo more so than Clickbank nowadays but I still think Clickbank has a ton to offer outside of the make money online - internet marketing niche.

    Clickbank is still the go to place for vendors and affiliates outside of the mentioned niche's that want to sell or promote digital products.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10511259].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Johnny1975
      Slightly off topic, but I couldn't find a more appropriate thread...

      I did a test purchase on clickbank and everything worked out fine but I'm unable to customize my thank you page. There are certain requirements that clickbank has for thank you pages but I can't make any changes to it. It's just a standard page that appears and it's not part of my site. How can I change it?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10511768].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
        Originally Posted by Johnny1975 View Post

        Slightly off topic, but I couldn't find a more appropriate thread...

        I did a test purchase on clickbank and everything worked out fine but I'm unable to customize my thank you page. There are certain requirements that clickbank has for thank you pages but I can't make any changes to it. It's just a standard page that appears and it's not part of my site. How can I change it?
        You have to make your own thank you page and then you enter the url in Clickbank so Clickbank knows where to send people for your thank you page.

        They don't make a thank you page for you.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10516744].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      Originally Posted by entrepreneurjay View Post

      I am not a big fan either but Clickbank has to do what Clickbank has to do to protect there brand and vendors.
      As mentioned throughout this thread, a lot of us aren't buying the idea that ClickBank has to do this. It seems a lot more likely that they're doing it because they want to become a retail destination for consumers, as they're now saying on their website and social media.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10512992].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Shine2314
    how do you thinks about JVzoo.com.
    I'm started a few day ago. i thinks jvzoo easier than Clickbank.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10511779].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Aniga
    From what I can see on several sales pages, the logo is now at the upper right corner and sometimes at the lower right corner. Also, sometimes there is no logo at all.

    Did CB change its mind? I have read only the first few pages of this thread, so I'm not sure what is going on right now.

    Most importantly, is this CB logo still a bad thing? Does it still constitute a "leak" even though it doesn't navigate prospects away from the sales page when they click on it?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10523692].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author DoubleOhDave
    My thoughts? F*** Clickwank... Jeez they still owe me $hundreds cos people didn't use a mix of payment options when they bought through my links. They use and abuse their affiliates - knowing their b***s*** system allows them get away with murder. F'em. I'm never promoting a product through them again. And aside from my rant... it was gettin hard enough as it was to find a legit product on their platform that wasn't all BS anyway!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10589184].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
      You need to have made 5 sales (and with your reference to "hundreds" it sounds like you have that) using 2 different payment methods.

      If, as you say, all your customers used the same payment method, it seems to get your hundreds all you would have to do is to make another purchase using a different method that what everyone else did. You can see the different types here: https://support.clickbank.com/entrie...on-Requirement

      Here is a $3 product put out by fellow Warrior Harvey Segal just for this purpose: Three Dollar Purchase

      Mark

      Originally Posted by DoubleOhDave View Post

      My thoughts? F*** Clickwank... Jeez they still owe me cos people didn't use a mix of payment options when they bought through my links. They use and abuse their affiliates - knowing their b***s*** system allows them get away with murder. F'em. I'm never promoting a product through them again. And aside from my rant... it was gettin hard enough as it was to find a legit product on their platform that wasn't all BS anyway!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10589207].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author DoubleOhDave
        Dude, do you think I am blowing smoke up your ass? I made almost $300 with one promotion and a little over $200 with the other - I saw not a dime! And they said if I bought through my own link I'd be penalized. When I asked why I wasn't paid they said it was cos everyone paid via PayPal and some had to come from credit card. They took away something like $15 a month (see their T&C) till it was all gone and I saw nothing in my bank account. Personally - I wouldn't trust them with my mother's pension. But het - yuo wanna work for nothing? Go right ahead :-)
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10589215].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
          If the money is gone it's gone. I posted what I did thinking it may be a recent problem. Buying through your own link isn't a problem. The $3 product Harvey set up gives more details here: Getting Paid by ClickBank

          If a person doesn't want to or can't purchase through their own link, asking a friend to do it would save a lot of grief for a lot of people.

          And as far as trusting them due to their accounting policies (dormant accounts, etc.) most big companies have some sort of dormant account policy even though CB's is pretty aggressive compared to others.

          Mark

          Originally Posted by DoubleOhDave View Post

          Dude, do you think I am blowing smoke up your ass? I made almost $300 with one promotion and a little over $200 with the other - I saw not a dime! And they said if I bought through my own link I'd be penalized. When I asked why I wasn't paid they said it was cos everyone paid via PayPal and some had to come from credit card. They took away something like $15 a month (see their T&C) till it was all gone and I saw nothing in my bank account. Personally - I wouldn't trust them with my mother's pension. But het - yuo wanna work for nothing? Go right ahead :-)
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10589232].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Kevin McNally
            Bought something from clickbank a few weeks ago, the branding doesn't bother me as a buyer but I am familiar with clickbank anyway, many outside the IM niche have never heard of them.

            Unless they have changed their system recently, unlike jvzoo and warrior plus you cant get all your previous orders in the one download area. I like this about the other guys as I sometimes buy stuff and just log in weeks later to check it out as I know all the links will be there.

            I also lost nearly $100 due to their annoying payment terms, to be fair it was an account I forgot about for many months and when I finally logged in they were debiting money off the balance each payment period.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10590221].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author [Justin]
      Originally Posted by DoubleOhDave View Post

      My thoughts? F*** Clickwank... Jeez they still owe me cos people didn't use a mix of payment options when they bought through my links. They use and abuse their affiliates - knowing their b***s*** system allows them get away with murder. F'em. I'm never promoting a product through them again. And aside from my rant... it was gettin hard enough as it was to find a legit product on their platform that wasn't all BS anyway!
      You sound SOOOOOOOO salty lol!

      You probably only made one sale, you're definitely exaggerating. If you made hundreds off of your first promotion (which you didn't, obviously) you would have simply kept promoting and you easily would have had more than 5 purchases and you would have had the 2 different purchase types effortlessly.

      I guaranty you only made ONE sale, and then cried and cried that you had to make 4 more before you start getting paid.

      Anyone that can easily make hundreds first try, can, AND WILL easily do it again, and they will VERY easily meet Clickbanks requirements, because those requirements are EASILY met even when you can't easily sell hundreds of dollars worth of stuff 1st try.

      You're obviously lying, and obviously very salty that you didn't get paid for the one sale you made lol.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10590324].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
        Hey Justin,

        Originally Posted by [Justin] View Post

        You probably only made one sale, you're definitely exaggerating. If you made hundreds off of your first promotion (which you didn't, obviously) you would have simply kept promoting and you easily would have had more than 5 purchases and you would have had the 2 different purchase types effortlessly.

        I guaranty you only made ONE sale, and then cried and cried that you had to make 4 more before you start getting paid.

        Anyone that can easily make hundreds first try, can, AND WILL easily do it again, and they will VERY easily meet Clickbanks requirements, because those requirements are EASILY met even when you can't easily sell hundreds of dollars worth of stuff 1st try.

        You're obviously lying, and obviously very salty that you didn't get paid for the one sale you made lol.
        The last I heard from you, you still hadn't launched your first product. Have you done that yet?

        If not, you're hardly qualified to judge someone else's performance with regard to their success/failure.

        If you have finally launched that product, you are still way out of line accusing someone else of lying - as you have absolutely no hard facts to back that up.
        Signature

        Sid Hale
        Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10590832].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author VidasVegas
    One question:
    Is it for the better or for the worst?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10590294].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author agmccall
      Originally Posted by VidasVegas View Post

      One question:
      Is it for the better or for the worst?
      There are 19 pages of posts regarding this. Read them and decide

      al
      Signature

      "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10590361].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author DrewIM
    I think everyone is overreacting a bit too much on this. I put the CB badge on my sales pages and it did not affect the sales at all. I still get checks in the mail like clockwork every two weeks.

    It’s in CB’s best interest to have you sell as much product as possible. I don’t think they would do anything to actively hurt their chances of making more money. Just look at how much they take out of every sale you make (7.5% +$1). Their business model relies on you making sales.

    Also, if you don’t know…after someone buys your product, CB displays similar products to your customers on the ‘thank you’ page which you will also get commission for and of course CB makes more money too.

    What they ARE doing is weeding out the people that don’t make them money. This includes people creating accounts so they can use their own aff links to get “discounts”. It also includes products that are shady and don’t sell more than 1 or 2 copies. I’m sorry, but if you’re struggling to make more than a few sales per month or can’t get meet the 5 sales from 5 different people threshold, then you either need to rethink your product, your marketing, or your career choice…that’s not CB's problem.

    If you have a legitimate product that actually helps people and good marketing to back it up, you have nothing to worry about.

    What you’re paying for when you sign up with Clickbank as a vendor is a massive marketplace of affiliates to promote your product. Yes it hurts to lose 7.5% + $1 of every sale but you make up for that with the number of people you get promoting for you (i.e. free traffic).

    I think it’s time to put this topic to rest and get back to work making high quality products that people actually want to pay for instead of blaming everything else for why you can’t make sales.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10590730].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      Hi Drew,

      Your understanding of ClickBank is so wrong, on so many issues, that I hardly know where to start...

      Originally Posted by DrewIM View Post

      It's in CB's best interest to have you sell as much product as possible. I don't think they would do anything to actively hurt their chances of making more money. Just look at how much they take out of every sale you make (7.5% +$1). Their business model relies on you making sales.
      It is in CB's best interests to make as many sales as possible, regardless of whether or not an affiliate receives credit/commission for those sales.

      By creating their "new" retail marketplace and their push to re-brand themselves as a Global internet Retailer, they are in direct competition with their own affiliates. It's an attempt to become the "Amazon" of digital information products, and can be seen on their home page at ClickBank | A Global Internet Retailer

      Besides the ads shown in the carousel at the top of the page, you can scroll down to the Featured Products and/or the menu of product categories in the left sidebar. It's important to note that this marketplace DOES NOT contain any support for affiliate links, and that they will be attempting to get direct search engine exposure for ALL of the category and product sales pages in that marketplace.

      After all... Amazon does it (quite successfully). Why shouldn't they try the same thing?

      Also, if you don't know...after someone buys your product, CB displays similar products to your customers on the 'thank you' page which you will also get commission for and of course CB makes more money too.
      CB does not display anything on the 'thank you' page, as that page is created by the product creator. The "similar products" you refer to are either 1) related products from the same vendor, or 2) affiliate offers to other products (probably with their own affiliate link).


      What they ARE doing is weeding out the people that don't make them money. This includes people creating accounts so they can use their own aff links to get "discounts". It also includes products that are shady and don't sell more than 1 or 2 copies. I'm sorry, but if you're struggling to make more than a few sales per month or can't get meet the 5 sales from 5 different people threshold, then you either need to rethink your product, your marketing, or your career choice...that's not CB's problem.
      1. ClickBank does not discourage using your own affiliate link to purchase products - never have.
      2. Nothing they have done with regard to the CB header will have any impact at all on "shady" products, nor low-volume products
      3. ClickBank does not require sales from 5 different people, but rather 5 different funding sources (i.e. Paypal plus 4 different credit cards)


      What you're paying for when you sign up with Clickbank as a vendor is a massive marketplace of affiliates to promote your product. Yes it hurts to lose 7.5% + $1 of every sale but you make up for that with the number of people you get promoting for you (i.e. free traffic).
      It is painfully obvious just from active threads in this section of the WF, that if a vendor signs up with ClickBank for that stated purpose... he/she will be sorely disappointed. Attracting quality affiliates is a major task in the creation/selling of a new product, and simply listing on ClickBank most often falls short of the vendor's expectations.

      I think it's time to put this topic to rest and get back to work making high quality products that people actually want to pay for instead of blaming everything else for why you can't make sales.
      The time to have begun that, would have been just BEFORE you chose to comment in this thread with such a high degree of inaccuracy.
      Signature

      Sid Hale
      Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10590887].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author DrewIM
        Hi Sid, thanks for the response. Don't know why you're so bitter or maybe just an angry guy in general, but let me address your points and shed some light on my "high degree of inaccuracy" for you.

        I'm not sure if you're a vendor on CB or not but I have been for over 5 years now and make good money doing it and continue to do so even with all the changes CB has been making. Are you speaking from personal CURRENT Vendor experience?

        1) My comments are aimed at being a VENDOR on Clickbank, NOT an affiliate. This whole thread started with concern on the badge that VENDORS have to put on their sites so that is what I am referring to. With that said, if Clickbank wants to put my product in their retail marketplace that is fine with me, since it's still a sale for me. I understand what you are saying about affiliates but that's another subject and not one that referred to in my post.

        2) When you buy a product on Clickbank, there is a screen that comes up after you submit your payment information and before you reach the vendors thank you page. On this page there are offers related to other CB products...and they use the original vendors affiliate link on those buy buttons so the original vendor gets commission if any of these additional products are bought. Have you actually bought something off Clickbank yourself to see this in action?

        3) 5 sales from 5 different payments, not people, my mistake, thought it was something like that. I apologize for my "high degree of inaccuracy" on that.

        4) Attracting quality affiliates is WORK, this is a business and it's not an easy one. Whoever thinks just signing up as a vendor means automatic affiliates is sorely mistaken. Didn't mean it to sound that way if it did. And yes there are a ton of terrible affiliates on CB but there are also very good ones that can make you a lot of money. You just need to know how to reach them.

        Overall I don't think I deserved the nasty tone of your last sentence. I'm sorry that Clickbank has wronged you so horribly but that doesn't mean everyone feels that way.

        Making money online is HARD and not for everyone. If you don't like CB then don't use them.

        My point still stands that if you have a high quality product as a VENDOR, good marketing behind it, and put in the WORK to get quality affiliates, then CB can make you a lot of money.

        BUT...if you just want to make "Rapid Action Profits" without doing the work, then you are not going to be happy with Clickbank.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10591077].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
          Hey Drew,

          I've participated in this discussion since its inception, and the issues have been addressed from both the VENDOR and AFFILIATE perspective.


          Originally Posted by DrewIM View Post

          Overall I don't think I deserved the nasty tone of your last sentence. I'm sorry that Clickbank has wronged you so horribly but that doesn't mean everyone feels that way.

          Making money online is HARD and not for everyone. If you don't like CB then don't use them.
          I apologize for my tone in the last of my remarks,

          You didn't deserve that.

          It was probably my long-term distaste for CB coming out. While I maintain my account there, I haven't used CB as a Vendor nor as an Affiliate in many years.

          My point still stands that if you have a high quality product as a VENDOR, good marketing behind it, and put in the WORK to get quality affiliates, then CB can make you a lot of money.
          My concern is that their new marketplace directly competes with the affiliates that have been their mainstay since their inception - and that many affiliates still don't recognize that fact. If the marketplace is successful, it will be great for Vendors, but :
          1. IF their new marketplace interferes significantly with affiliate earnings, affiliates will bail out to other networks.
          2. IF their new marketplace fails to bring the same level of traffic and sales that their affiliates were previously driving, and affiliates have already bailed... Vendor sales levels will suffer.

          It's a quite dramatic shift in business direction, and neither CB, their Vendors, nor their Affiliates have any idea whether they will actually succeed.
          Signature

          Sid Hale
          Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10591215].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
    I recently promoted a "hot" product from a "super seller" on CB and didn't even make one sale after pushing the product hard.

    I then promoted another product in the same niche on a different network and I made hundreds.

    I don't know what it is about CB products, I wish they would convert better - I do feel the new changes with their branding and all is causing a drag on sales.

    I might come back to CB in the future but for now I see conversions working better with other networks / products.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10590807].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Converting Copy
    So I'm confused. Do we need the header or not? I've heard conflicting things and am getting back into promoting a couple things on Clickbank, so thought I'd ask if it's actually required (meaning you can't generate sales without it) or if it's just encouraged.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10590814].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Popche
    I think that ClickBank has fallen, it has lost it's power and promoting products it's not what it was a year ago. But that is my opinion, what do you think?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10593505].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author tasari
      Originally Posted by Popche View Post

      I think that ClickBank has fallen, it has lost it's power and promoting products it's not what it was a year ago. But that is my opinion, what do you think?
      I noticed that too... and the number of "quality" products as affiliate are less too :-(
      But that is my opinion... Not easy with soooo many competitors neither :-(
      Signature
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10593525].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    just wanted to pop back in here and followup with ya'll...

    so far... zero negative effect on conversions... on one funnel it actually bumped it up around 18-19% ...which is pretty big when you do a lot of testing already.

    no reason to get your panties in a bunch guys (lol) ...and ...freak out with all the negativity.... TEST it and make data based decisions. (thank you eben pagan for that idea)

    This is what ALL the big companies/marketers do ...and ...what we did when I was a day trader....

    You test and make decisions based on the data, not by emotions and opinions.

    Those can get you into a lot of trouble ...and ...cost you lots and lots of money.:-)

    trust seal is working well.

    No negative effects.

    Clickbank rocks

    And ...they never miss a payment.

    hope that helped.
    Signature

    “Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.”
    ― Dalai Lama XIV

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10710141].message }}

Trending Topics