33 replies
Saw this on CNN today:

Web citizens trying to kill Internet Explorer 6 - CNN.com

As a web developer I can relate to the headaches caused by trying to cater to IE6 users. Guess I'm not alone!

Bill
#death #ie6
  • Profile picture of the author Rich Struck
    I used to put in a lot of effort to cater to people using ancient browsers & computers but I don't anymore. Computers are cheap nowadays so there is no reason not to upgrade from Windows 98 and join the rest of us in the 21st century.
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  • Profile picture of the author The Pension Guy
    It was time to do something. It is a major PITA to develop a decent WP theme, for example, that looks the same in IE6, 7, FF, Opera...

    So, yes, death to IE6!
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  • Profile picture of the author thegamecat
    Without doubt the biggest bane of my dev life is firefox.
    I have loved all ie browsers since they revolutionised browsers with ie4, netscape was the total king before that though.
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  • Profile picture of the author The Pension Guy
    Well, if you develop web-standard sites then FF is fine and IE is the nightmare
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    • Profile picture of the author waloosh
      Originally Posted by The Pension Guy View Post

      Well, if you develop web-standard sites then FF is fine and IE is the nightmare
      Not true :p If you know what you're doing, you can make a design without any effort that works for both. I only had ONE problem with IE when trying to design for FF, and that was positioned div layers because coordinates are different between browsers.

      Other than that, designing for all browsers is pretty simple nowadays =)
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  • Profile picture of the author TheRichJerksNet
    IE has been dead for many years... I do not build sites according to IE and when I did take on clients I told them the same thing.

    James
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    • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
      Originally Posted by TheRichJerksNet View Post

      IE has been dead for many years... I do not build sites according to IE and when I did take on clients I told them the same thing.

      James
      Umm... IE has 60%+ market share. Thats far from dead.

      It not hard making sites work in both.
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      • Profile picture of the author TheRichJerksNet
        Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

        Umm... IE has 60%+ market share. Thats far from dead.

        It not hard making sites work in both.
        I do not waste my time .... 60% is not an accurate number (that number is taken from the "installed" IE's, this does not mean they are used). I build my sites the way I do and if IE has an issue with it then so be it. On almost every single one of my sites IE is the lowest used browser. Even the PDA's have a higher percentage than IE does.

        On my intel mac I deleted IE from the entire windowsXP system. I have no use for the browser when it can not even view simple html proper.

        James
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        • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
          Originally Posted by TheRichJerksNet View Post

          I do not waste my time .... 60% is not an accurate number (that number is taken from the "installed" IE's, this does not mean they are used). I build my sites the way I do and if IE has an issue with it then so be it. On almost every single one of my sites IE is the lowest used browser. Even the PDA's have a higher percentage than IE does.

          On my intel mac I deleted IE from the entire windowsXP system. I have no use for the browser when it can not even view simple html proper.

          James
          LOL No it's not. its taken from stats of major sites. The installed number would be about 80%.
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          • Profile picture of the author TheRichJerksNet
            Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

            LOL No it's not. its taken from stats of major sites. The installed number would be about 80%.
            Sorry I disagree with those stats because one thing I do keep my eye on is my AWASTATS and ofcourse I have my own tracking system on my sites also. If people wish to waste their time tweaking this and that for IE, then be my guest.. Personally I have better things to do, my sites work just fine and I do not need to sit there and tweak and play with it to satisfy some out-of-date and useless browser.

            James
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            • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
              Originally Posted by TheRichJerksNet View Post

              Sorry I disagree with those stats because one thing I do keep my eye on is my AWASTATS and ofcourse I have my own tracking system on my sites also. If people wish to waste their time tweaking this and that for IE, then be my guest.. Personally I have better things to do, my sites work just fine and I do not need to sit there and tweak and play with it to satisfy some out-of-date and useless browser.

              James
              Your personal stats do not mean anything for the market as a whole. It only means the majority of YOUR visitors don't use IE. Which is not uncommon for certain types of sites. Tech sites see more FF but social sites see more IE.

              For example:

              W3Schools.com shows its visitor browser stats as FF with 47.9% share and IE with a 39.4%. Browser Statistics

              However, they do say:
              W3Schools is a website for people with an interest for web technologies. These people are more interested in using alternative browsers than the average user. The average user tends to use Internet Explorer, since it comes preinstalled with Windows. Most do not seek out other browsers.

              These facts indicate that the browser figures above are not 100% realistic. Other web sites have statistics showing that Internet Explorer is used by at least 80% of the users.
              And market share shows: IE at 67.68% and FF at 22.47%

              (Market share for browsers, operating systems and search engines)

              Statcounter shows close to the same as market share. StatCounter Global Stats - Browser, OS, Search Engine including Mobile Market Share

              Like I said, far from dead.

              Garrie
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              • Profile picture of the author TheRichJerksNet
                Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

                Your personal stats do not mean anything for the market as a whole. It only means the majority of YOUR visitors don't use IE. Which is not uncommon for certain types of sites. Tech sites see more FF but social sites see more IE.
                Your right, that is my personal stats and they do mean something to me.... All of my sites and I do own many, IE is the lowest used browser.

                With that said, I will not specifically cater to IE. My sites are built to standards and can be viewed just fine under IE.. The point is though I will not specifically cater to IE ....

                Yes this is my personal opinion..

                Matter fact I will even give a great example:

                One of my computers is a Intel-Mac which runs WindowsXP using Parallels Software. Now On IE (Which yes I did trash now), Netscape 7 & 8 , FireFox under windows all require the "new" flash plugin in order for peel away ads to show. Problem is you can not install the latest version because Parallels does not support it.

                So does this mean I will remove the peel away ads on my sites that use them ?? No Way!!! I am not going to remove it just because Parallels has not updated to the point to use the latest flash..

                James
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            • Profile picture of the author Nightengale
              I only recently upgraded from IE 6 to IE 8. On my desktop, that is. My new laptop came with IE 7 installed and I haven't upgraded it yet.

              I know IE 6 is old and has compatibility issues. But personally, I hate tabbed browsing and I prefer the icons in and "look" of IE 6.

              However, I work for a Fortune 500 company. We are in 26 states and our computers still use IE 6. With so many people still using it, especially so many large companies, I'd be very careful about not catering to IE 6 users. A significant share of your visitors may be having a bad browsing experience on your site because you've decided catering to IE 6 users isn't worth your time. People looking at your site from their employer's offices have no choice about the browser they're using. That's the domain of the information management department of the company they work for and they have no control over it.

              Remember that not everyone is as "into" the technical issues or as technically advanced as Warriors. Just make sure you consider your audience.

              Michelle
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            • Profile picture of the author AverageGuy
              you may say:
              most people on MY SITES use a different browser than IE.

              but, you can not draw a general conclusion: IE is dead, or IE is out-of-date & useless. It is a misleading and technically-fault conclusion. the data from your own sites is statistically meaningless, very biased.

              check some general/public survey, you can see IE is still dominate the browser market, no matter how great people think Firefox, Chromr, or Opera is. If I'm not wrong, IE still have far more than 50% share of the market.

              for a general webmaster, optimize for IE, definitely is more meaningful than optimizing for other browsers.

              david

              Originally Posted by TheRichJerksNet View Post

              Sorry I disagree with those stats because one thing I do keep my eye on is my AWASTATS and ofcourse I have my own tracking system on my sites also. If people wish to waste their time tweaking this and that for IE, then be my guest.. Personally I have better things to do, my sites work just fine and I do not need to sit there and tweak and play with it to satisfy some out-of-date and useless browser.

              James
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              • Profile picture of the author TheRichJerksNet
                Originally Posted by AverageGuy View Post

                you may say:
                most people on MY SITES use a different browser than IE.

                but, you can not draw a general conclusion: IE is dead, or IE is out-of-date & useless. It is a misleading and technically-fault conclusion. the data from your own sites is statistically meaningless, very biased.

                check some general/public survey, you can see IE is still dominate the browser market, no matter how great people think Firefox, Chromr, or Opera is. If I'm not wrong, IE still have far more than 50% share of the market.

                for a general webmaster, optimize for IE, definitely is more meaningful than optimizing for other browsers.

                david
                I do not draw my conclusions from my own site I have worked on thousands upon thousands of sites and many on a monthly basis. I do still have clients that I provide hosting for.

                It is my opinion that the browser is useless and I am certainly not the only developer that thinks that. It is also my opinion that IE does not own over 50% of the market share.

                Some mention business offices must run IE because it cost too much to change and switch.. There are many that also run Mac computers and there are even goverments that actually use mac to print their money. Why people always sell Mac short is beyond me but I really do not want to get in a discussion about that either...

                I really see no need to keep on harking on me when it is my opinion the browser is useless, nothing you are going to say is going to change that. Sure I used to love IE at one time but that was only because netscape 3 had issues loading .jpg images. Once netscape 4 came out I swicthed and never looked back. I still use netscape today and yes I know AOL dropped the development on it.

                Wow forgive a 15 year+ website developer for having an opinion.....

                James
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                • Profile picture of the author Dan Grossman
                  Originally Posted by TheRichJerksNet View Post

                  It is also my opinion that IE does not own over 50% of the market share.
                  James, do you know the difference between an opinion and a fact?

                  You might hold the opinion that 3 is less than 2, but if you hold enough of that type of opinion you might end up in an asylum.

                  The numbers are what they are, they are not subject to opinions.

                  The statistical sample from all the companies tracking browser usage across the web is large enough that it's not possible for Internet Explorer to have less than 50% market share and get the numbers they have.
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                  • Profile picture of the author TheRichJerksNet
                    Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post

                    James, do you know the difference between an opinion and a fact?

                    You might hold the opinion that 3 is less than 2, but if you hold enough of that type of opinion you might end up in an asylum.

                    The numbers are what they are, they are not subject to opinions.

                    The statistical sample from all the companies tracking browser usage across the web is large enough that it's not possible for Internet Explorer to have less than 50% market share and get the numbers they have.
                    I am fully aware and I stated my opinion ... It's that Simple!

                    If you do not agree with my opinion then that is your right... Personally myself if my business was depending upon usage stats from other places then I would have been out of business years ago.

                    Sorry I will stick with what I know and see.... But this argument is really stupid, if I chose to use or build for IE or not is 100% upto me, it's my business...

                    I will opt-out of this thread now because frankly I see no use in it...

                    James
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                    • Profile picture of the author ryanstreet
                      I know where this thread is going, (and pretty much has gone) so I will say my peace and be done.

                      Rich Jerks, Dan, and everyone else, you're right and wrong.

                      If you have ever been on an unmanageable site because of browser restrictions, your first thought isn't to buy something, opt-in, read more, or otherwise take an action. Your first thought is "Good lord, this site looks terrible! Let me see if I can find something else."

                      Scroll, Scroll, Click! You hear that? That's the sound of your prospect/visitor floating away. Bye bye now...

                      Basically that means you need to cater to all audiences because all audiences are diverse in their browser usage. Sad? Yes. True? YES...

                      But I do believe we need to move forward in our progress of technology. I use PHP5 because it is the most robust, secure and diverse version of PHP out there. I also upgrade my browser whenever there is a security update or whatever. Because we need to move forward in technology.

                      Death to IE6? You bet. Not because I am tired of putting out hacks to make it look good, but because we need to condition people to move forward with technology. We need to get to a standard that everyone adopts.

                      If everyone stopped putting out customization to make each browser look perfect, we would start to see a more unified browser come together much faster.

                      So tell everyone to use the best browser out there, (cough Firefox) but make sure you are not losing sales because of it. So code in the best practice possible, and if it looks bad in IE6, that's ok, just so long as it is manageable.

                      Enough Ranting.
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                      Ryan Street
                      PHP Developer Specializing in WordPress and Magento
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                      • Profile picture of the author TheRichJerksNet
                        Originally Posted by ryanstreet View Post

                        I know where this thread is going, (and pretty much has gone) so I will say my peace and be done.

                        Rich Jerks, Dan, and everyone else, you're right and wrong.

                        If you have ever been on an unmanageable site because of browser restrictions, your first thought isn't to buy something, opt-in, read more, or otherwise take an action. Your first thought is "Good lord, this site looks terrible! Let me see if I can find something else."

                        Scroll, Scroll, Click! You hear that? That's the sound of your prospect/visitor floating away. Bye bye now...

                        Basically that means you need to cater to all audiences because all audiences are diverse in their browser usage. Sad? Yes. True? YES...

                        But I do believe we need to move forward in our progress of technology. I use PHP5 because it is the most robust, secure and diverse version of PHP out there. I also upgrade my browser whenever there is a security update or whatever. Because we need to move forward in technology.

                        Death to IE6? You bet. Not because I am tired of putting out hacks to make it look good, but because we need to condition people to move forward with technology. We need to get to a standard that everyone adopts.

                        If everyone stopped putting out customization to make each browser look perfect, we would start to see a more unified browser come together much faster.

                        So tell everyone to use the best browser out there, (cough Firefox) but make sure you are not losing sales because of it. So code in the best practice possible, and if it looks bad in IE6, that's ok, just so long as it is manageable.

                        Enough Ranting.
                        Exactly .. I build my sites to standards (as I already said) which in this case is Php 5.25 but Php 6 is not long around the corner as it has already been out and is used also...

                        I will not cater......... Now I am done

                        James
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  • Profile picture of the author The Pension Guy
    Let's not make this thread another "browser war"...
    IE6 (we are talking about IE6) sucks. Period. For all the rest of the browsers it is easy to develop. I hand code (X)HTML and CCS and I know what I am doing
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  • Profile picture of the author waloosh
    Lol, wasn't gonna make it a browser war =P was just stating. And yes, I was talking about IE6. The positioning is completely different =P It's a lot easier with 7 and 8 now though.
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  • Profile picture of the author Pokerlover
    I would want to wish the same.. Despite upgrading my IE to version 7, I still experience the same thing.. How I wish IE could resolve the problem on their internet browser.. I really hate it cause it responds so slow..
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  • Profile picture of the author Tracey_Meagher
    20% of visitors to my main site are IE6ers. I always build my sites and templates to work in this browser though troubleshooting and hacking my templates for it can add 10% on to the time I spend creating the template.

    I dream of the day when IE6 is no more!
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  • Profile picture of the author MarkH45
    I use joomla to design all of my sites, they have a great plugin:

    Internet Explorer 6 Warning Update - Joomla! Extensions Directory

    Although I don't use it, I think it's pretty funny...
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Grossman
    W3Counter - Global Web Stats

    This is based on traffic to about 25,000 websites.

    IE is *used* by ~53% of visitors to those sites; IE6 alone 15%.

    W3Schools' report should not be used as a benchmark of anything, that's just an analysis of *their own stats*, one site as you criticized others for basing assumptions on before.

    The fact remains that more than one out of seven visitors to the average site is viewing it on Internet Explorer 6, and that the majority of these users are at work where the user does not have the option of upgrading. IT departments set software policies, not individual employees. And many companies do not think it is in the best interest of their business to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars rewriting legacy software & intranet applications in order to eliminate IE6 from their workplace, when that money could be spent on .. whatever that company actually does.

    If your site wants the purchasing manager from X business to be able to become your big client, you better be sure the browser his company forces him to use can use your site.
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    • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
      Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post

      W3Schools' report should not be used as a benchmark of anything, that's just an analysis of *their own stats*, one site as you criticized others for basing assumptions on before.
      If you look at my message again you will see that I also posted that the w3schools stats are from their site and even posted what they said about it.

      It wasn't shown to support my "IE isn't dead" it was shown to show how a single site can have skewed. Yet even at 39%, it's not dead.

      I also posted stats from two other sites.

      This is based on traffic to about 25,000 websites
      It's also only based on about 15,000 page views.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan Grossman
        Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post


        It's also only based on about 15,000 page views.
        That's 15,000 page views per site. Over 375 million total.
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  • Profile picture of the author AverageGuy
    no, I do not hark (whatever it means) anyone. it is ok to have your own opinion. but, when you make a conclusion, you will have to provide proof to back it up. (again, you, I do not mean anyone, I mean general people).

    for example, if you say: I have thousands upon thousands websites' user information now, here is the statistical information about the users' browser which shows less than 50% users are using IE: .... AND these websites covers a wide range of niches. Then it is a different story. Because it says meaningful information. But if you do not provide proof, then please just keep your opinion, and at least you should say: i think IE is useless. blah, blah, ...

    If you think you are offended, I'm sorry for that. I could explain my opinion more clearly. But until you show some proof, I would rather believe public survey results from big companies. However, you can still keep your personal opinion, I do not care.



    david
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  • Profile picture of the author tstockil
    Unfortunately many people got IE6 with their system and couldn't care less about changing it - and wouldn't know how. The nightmare of Vista with an underpowered pc or laptop is enough to make anyone wary - go back to XP/IE6. I work/design in FF and check if acceptable in IE. Much better than using it, although there are still occasions when you need it!
    Tony
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Grossman
    Windows 7 is the only chance we have of seeing IE6 market share drop any considerable amount in the near future. Lots of companies skipped over Windows Vista entirely but are ready for an upgrade cycle in 2010, and new computers will mean Windows 7 with IE8.
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  • Profile picture of the author dlnunez
    Is IE making a comeback with version 8?
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  • Profile picture of the author vijayrajesh
    I believe the death of IE6 is in the hands of site owners and not developers.

    I still see some people want to design their site compatible to ie 6 also. Although some are not painful , some are really taking lots of time to fix it with help of forums and some existing solutions.

    I heard some news recently that some corporate companies still deny to uninstall ie 6. Not sure why they dont try chrome or atleast FF.

    As a developer, i use FF. But when i just want to browse i use Chrome only.

    FF is somewhat heavier in using RAM as i use lots of addons with it.
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