If Everyone Here Puts in $5.00 we can get the latest course and share it

103 replies
I exaggerate but that's what I see going on around the net. "I want XXX course, want to share the cost with me and 3 other guys?"

Personally I don't think that is ethical but I know it happens. I guess it's better than people that order, copy, then refund. Still it's a poverty mentality and I don't think those that get a course this way will use it. {my assumption is ) They are course collectors that's all.
#$500 #latest #puts #share
  • Profile picture of the author George Wright
    Hi,

    I'm in Scott, $5 on the way.... Just kidding, but that headline had me "wondering" for a moment.

    To me this is similar but not exactly the sub. of a thread I started regarding sharing ebooks with friends and family.

    Good thought jogger there Scott. You are right, it is done.

    Not to dig up my old thread but what about "partners" who want to implement a certain program in their business? Do they buy one course for the "business," or one course for each one who will be using it, including employees who will have to learn the information to implement for their employers?

    George Wright
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  • Profile picture of the author Easy Cash
    It would be breaking copyright law unless you had it only on 1 computer and everyone read from the same computer.
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  • Profile picture of the author darrin_cooper
    There's absolutely nothing wrong with this at all.

    Let's take the flip side of your argument for example -- The big time gurus who have existing large lists with partner affiliates. The partner affiliates get a special "Affiliate Deals" and higher percentages vs. the "other" affiliates. Also, they are sometimes given even an advanced look at the product without buying. So, when a big Launch is scheduled, on a certain date, only the specific group MASS BLASTS everyone to purchase their product. And it's like a Round-Robin of Week after week after week of I scratch your back you scratch mine style of marketing.

    I can tell you this, without the support of the 20 - 50 "Partner Affiliates" as a group, there would be no way that ANY of these gurus pushing these products would achieve the sales they are saying

    Therefore, if it benefits others to purchase the product to simply see the "TRUTH" and pay a lower cost, so be it. To say it's not ethical,
    then back what is ethical about gurus all getting together & blasting out the same email trying to get the latest guru affiliate prize?

    I think it's a great idea to take what is happening now, is that costs are going up from the "$1997" framework, to now what is happening this: $2,495 & $2700 framework. 20 People who are interested can get a $1997 product for $100. I would be more inclined to connect on a group think basis of $100 & connect w/ people that bought together vs. not being able to even contact customer support or even get the truth from the owner of the product who is never around anyway.
    At the end of the day, ETHICS, has nothing to do with it. It's about whether or not the value of what is being offered is worth it.


    Originally Posted by Scott Ames View Post

    I exaggerate but that's what I see going on around the net. "I want XXX course, want to share the cost with me and 3 other guys?"

    Personally I don't think that is ethical but I know it happens. I guess it's better than people that order, copy, then refund. Still it's a poverty mentality and I don't think those that get a course this way will use it. {my assumption is ) They are course collectors that's all.
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    • Profile picture of the author entry
      What course do you want to share?
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      • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
        I'd like a new laptop -- if we all put in $5.00 we can share it. We'll just FedEx it around the world every time someone needs to check their email or something.
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        • Profile picture of the author darrin_cooper
          What's wrong w/ this. A couple of years ago, there was Follow The White Lap Top that traveled the globe to raise awareness & money for One Laptop per child. People like Guy Kawasaki and Cambrian House participated. It went to aprox. 19 places, signed by each place. And yes, they used Fed Ex for tracking......


          Originally Posted by KenStrong View Post

          I'd like a new laptop -- if we all put in $5.00 we can share it. We'll just FedEx it around the world every time someone needs to check their email or something.
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        • Profile picture of the author theimdude
          Originally Posted by KenStrong View Post

          I'd like a new laptop -- if we all put in $5.00 we can share it. We'll just FedEx it around the world every time someone needs to check their email or something.
          Send me the money and I will get the laptop. Here is a copy of TeamViewer for you $5 .................
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          • Profile picture of the author Marcel Hartmann
            People who do not earn and spend money on something will not value that something when they get it. Hence, they probably won't take action.
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        • Profile picture of the author intromaster
          Originally Posted by KenStrong View Post

          I'd like a new laptop -- if we all put in $5.00 we can share it. We'll just FedEx it around the world every time someone needs to check their email or something.
          that is just too too funny!!!
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      • Profile picture of the author Jared Alberghini
        Originally Posted by entry View Post

        What course do you want to share?
        lulz...

        What I want to know is this: What course costs $706,175...:confused:

        (# of Warrior Members: 141,235 X $5)

        Must be one hell of a course... I'm in too...

        .jrd

        P.S. Ken, That's going to be one bad ass laptop for $700k
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
          Originally Posted by Jared Alberghini View Post

          lulz...

          What I want to know is this: What course costs $706,175...:confused:

          (# of Warrior Members: 141,235 X $5)

          Must be one hell of a course... I'm in too...

          .jrd

          P.S. Ken, That's going to be one bad ass laptop for $700k
          Or...

          If it were a $5 product we could all chip in ~ $0.00003 each.

          The PayPal fees would be a nightmare!



          All the best,
          Michael
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          "Ich bin en fuego!"
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        • Profile picture of the author Doug
          Originally Posted by Jared Alberghini View Post

          P.S. Ken, That's going to be one bad ass laptop for $700k

          OK, OK - Sold! One Laptop, case, software and loaded with IM products...where do I ship it guys?

          I kind of like this buy low, sell high business

          Seriously, people sharing our 'stuff' is going to happen...how can we as IMer's position ourselves to get the upper hand? Maybe by simply offering a package designed to be shared, at a slightly higher price, and model it after multi-user licensed software.

          just a thought...

          Doug
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          • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
            Originally Posted by Doug View Post

            OK, OK - Sold! One Laptop, case, software and loaded with IM products...where do I ship it guys?

            I kind of like this buy low, sell high business

            Seriously, people sharing our 'stuff' is going to happen...how can we as IMer's position ourselves to get the upper hand? Maybe by simply offering a package designed to be shared, at a slightly higher price, and model it after multi-user licensed software.

            just a thought...

            Doug
            That is more the intent of the thread. People are going to share, so what can marketers do to make it an advantage ? Get strict? Get liberal? I don't know the answer. I know that when you buy software, it's for your use and you can't legally share it with others. You have a license for 1 installation, or whatever rights you buy. Technically most software is non-transferrable even though people do it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by darrin_cooper View Post

      There's absolutely nothing wrong with this at all.

      To say it's not ethical, then back what is ethical about gurus all getting together & blasting out the same email trying to get the latest guru affiliate prize?
      I can't believe you're saying this. I'm sure I must have misread or misunderstood what you're saying.

      Are you REALLY saying that its fine to join a pool to buy a product and all participants keep the product?

      What's the difference between that and me buying your product and giving it to all my friends because they couldn't afford it? In fact, even giving it to strangers?

      This is not far from just putting it up online for anyone to steal. Just because someone paid 'something' towards it doesn't mean they own it or are entitled to it.

      Using the argument that well, gurus aren't playing fair anyway so it's only right that we can share their stuff just in case we decide it's not as valuable as they claim - is crazy...

      Andy
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      nothing to see here.

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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

        What's the difference between that and me buying your product and giving it to all my friends because they couldn't afford it? In fact, even giving it to strangers?
        You do realise that a lot of younger people these days don't see a problem with that, either, don't you?

        That an awful lot of people out there are very much of the opinion that if something is cheap and easy for them to copy, it is morally wrong to say "no" when someone asks you to copy it for them?

        Even if it's a stranger?

        I don't find that any less shocking than you do, but it's the world where we live. And if your business relies on each customer telling his friends "screw you, buy your own" - your business is in trouble.

        We don't get to choose how the cultural changes go. We just have to go with them. It's the people who won't or can't adapt that end up going under. You can't tell your customers to turn down that awful music and pull up their damn pants.
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          You do realise that a lot of younger people these days don't see a problem with that, either, don't you?
          Yes, I see and understand the physiological problem in some of the younger generation you're describing. Not all of them are that way, many actually have scruples and understand morals.
          That an awful lot of people out there are very much of the opinion that if something is cheap and easy for them to copy, it is morally wrong to say "no" when someone asks you to copy it for them?

          Even if it's a stranger?
          Seriously, That doesn't justify theft or copyright infringement.
          I don't find that any less shocking than you do, but it's the world where we live. And if your business relies on each customer telling his friends "screw you, buy your own" - your business is in trouble.
          That's not true...If we allow it to continue to happen with out giving a damn about the end results then Yes you would be correct. Although it is wrong and the problem remains in the lack of education that some have which in a court of Law will not excuse their actions. Another point might be that companies like Micro-soft require users to register their products so that duplicate registrations flag them to such issues. Only deterrents can help in the prevention of such actions as sharing files. We may never be able to stop the theft but we can do our part based on the importance of our business models to prevent it from happening. No we shouldn't chase ever violator but we should be aware of whom is licenced to use our products.
          We don't get to choose how the cultural changes go. We just have to go with them. It's the people who won't or can't adapt that end up going under. You can't tell your customers to turn down that awful music and pull up their damn pants.
          You can if you own the establishment they are entering. What will you end up with? A higher class of clientele that give you less problems down the road.

          Have a Great Day!
          Michael
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by Michael Mayo View Post

            We may never be able to stop the theft but we can do our part based on the importance of our business models to prevent it from happening.
            You could also have a business model that doesn't require your customers to be honest. It's nice if they are, of course... but if you can't guarantee that, and you can't control that, don't build your business on that ideal.

            I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying it's the reality of modern society. You have to accept that people do things you don't think are right, because they don't think these things are wrong.

            You can't win that battle. It's a struggle of ideals, and there's simply no reason for them to follow your ideals when it's clearly to their disadvantage.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jeff Noel
        Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

        I

        This is not far from just putting it up online for anyone to steal. Just because someone paid 'something' towards it doesn't mean they own it or are entitled to it.
        Andy
        I am not sure exactly what you mean here. But if I pull out my wallet and pay for something it is mine. Therefore I have the right to do with it what I want. If I choose to share it with 10 of my friends that is my choice. From what I understand is that if I copy the program course or whatever then sell it for a profit then I am breaking the law.

        I will give you an example of a situation that I personally went through. I and my business partner who lives 400km away from me purchased a online product that could only be viewed over the web.

        About two weeks into the course I and my partner were unable to view the course. After contacting them they sent a e-mail stating that what we were doing was against their terms of service and that I would have to purchase two courses. I replied back stating our situation yet they did not seem to believe us nor were they going to give us access to the product or a refund.

        I gave them an ultimatum either allow us to continue on with the course, give us a refund or I will contact the BBB and the FTC. I received no response so I contacted the FTC first and then the FTC contacted them to let them know that the information that I purchased belongs to my company and that they have no right to withhold the information from me.

        Needless to say that we were granted access to the course immediatly.
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
          Originally Posted by Jeff Noel View Post

          I am not sure exactly what you mean here. But if I pull out my wallet and pay for something it is mine. Therefore I have the right to do with it what I want. If I choose to share it with 10 of my friends that is my choice. From what I understand is that if I copy the program course or whatever then sell it for a profit then I am breaking the law.

          I will give you an example of a situation that I personally went through. I and my business partner who lives 400km away from me purchased a online product that could only be viewed over the web.

          About two weeks into the course I and my partner were unable to view the course. After contacting them they sent a e-mail stating that what we were doing was against their terms of service and that I would have to purchase two courses. I replied back stating our situation yet they did not seem to believe us nor were they going to give us access to the product or a refund.

          I gave them an ultimatum either allow us to continue on with the course, give us a refund or I will contact the BBB and the FTC. I received no response so I contacted the FTC first and then the FTC contacted them to let them know that the information that I purchased belongs to my company and that they have no right to withhold the information from me.

          Needless to say that we were granted access to the course immediatly.
          Yes, That can be the case if the product right states so although assuming that all right to products are the same can land some one into a heap of legal trouble if different than the one you described.

          Always read the product rights before you choose to use the product no matter if it is to resell it or give it away.

          Books are one thing but REPRODUCTIONS are another. If you loan/give your friend a book then yes you have every right to do so as long as the rights don't limit you to do so. Although, if the If the rights remain the sole property of the Business that to purchased the rights to view the info then you have no rights to disclose the info to others.

          I'm not a Lawyer so what I have said is based on what I have been through and is not legal advise. If you seek legal advise then seek a more trained/competent professional in this area or law.

          Have a Great Day!
          Michael
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        • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
          Originally Posted by Jeff Noel View Post

          I am not sure exactly what you mean here. But if I pull out my wallet and pay for something it is mine. Therefore I have the right to do with it what I want. If I choose to share it with 10 of my friends that is my choice. From what I understand is that if I copy the program course or whatever then sell it for a profit then I am breaking the law.
          I have no idea what makes you think that this is the case but I think if you check any products you've bought - they'll almost all say somewhere "this is for your own private use and you do NOT have the rights to give this away or sell it" (or words to that effect).

          You don't have to go to a copyright attorney in order for your work to be protected - it's automatically protected unless you specify special rights.

          You certainly do NOT have the right to do whatever you like with anyones product once you've bought it. You're buying personal rights for your own use.

          Why do you think pubs, clubs and bars need a license just to play a DVD ? when you buy a DVD you're only licensed to play it in a private setting and not to crowds of people.

          While we could discuss the ethics of this stuff all day (because everyone has their own perspective), the reality is - it is NOT legal or acceptable to copy someones product and give it to all your friends.

          I accept that there are some people who think any time they buy something they're being ripped off and it's their duty to find stuff for free (by other people breaking their terms and unlawfully offering it to them), but that's just a reflection of the bad side of society and there will probably always be people like that.

          The point here is - it's happening and it's worth factoring in when you spend several months creating something you've put your heart and sole in to - that other people will steal it and give it away.

          That doesn't mean it's ok - just that you'd better be ready for it and not get upset when it happens, but don't do it yourself because you're commoditising and cheapening the work of the creator every time you do it.

          This stuff isn't helped by the fact that often the people that do this create crap products of their own and try to sell at inflated prices, so they're part of the problem that's causing them to behave like that, but perhaps they need to support that system of crap products in order to feel ok about stealing other peoples?

          Andy
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          nothing to see here.

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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

            I have no idea what makes you think that this is the case but I think if you check any products you've bought - they'll almost all say somewhere "this is for your own private use and you do NOT have the rights to give this away or sell it" (or words to that effect).

            You don't have to go to a copyright attorney in order for your work to be protected - it's automatically protected unless you specify special rights.

            You certainly do NOT have the right to do whatever you like with anyones product once you've bought it. You're buying personal rights for your own use.

            Why do you think pubs, clubs and bars need a license just to play a DVD ? when you buy a DVD you're only licensed to play it in a private setting and not to crowds of people.

            While we could discuss the ethics of this stuff all day (because everyone has their own perspective), the reality is - it is NOT legal or acceptable to copy someones product and give it to all your friends. Andy

            A lot of people in this forum argue "ethics" as it suits them. If they want products for free, they have an argument as to why and when stealing people's products is ethical ... Oh ... it's just like passing a book onto a friend.

            Well, show me a book that has terms of service in it that prohibit giving the book away. Copyrights prohibit you from copying that book and giving away or selling copies of it, but there's no prohibition against giving your book away. That is not the case with online courses, online products, etc. They all have TOS that prohibit giving them away. If purchasing something and disregarding the TOS that you agreed to is ethical to you, then you have the "ethics" of a common thief.
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    • Profile picture of the author TheRichJerksNet
      Originally Posted by darrin_cooper View Post

      There's absolutely nothing wrong with this at all.

      Let's take the flip side of your argument for example -- The big time gurus who have existing large lists with partner affiliates. The partner affiliates get a special "Affiliate Deals" and higher percentages vs. the "other" affiliates. Also, they are sometimes given even an advanced look at the product without buying. So, when a big Launch is scheduled, on a certain date, only the specific group MASS BLASTS everyone to purchase their product. And it's like a Round-Robin of Week after week after week of I scratch your back you scratch mine style of marketing.

      I can tell you this, without the support of the 20 - 50 "Partner Affiliates" as a group, there would be no way that ANY of these gurus pushing these products would achieve the sales they are saying

      Therefore, if it benefits others to purchase the product to simply see the "TRUTH" and pay a lower cost, so be it. To say it's not ethical,
      then back what is ethical about gurus all getting together & blasting out the same email trying to get the latest guru affiliate prize?

      I think it's a great idea to take what is happening now, is that costs are going up from the "$1997" framework, to now what is happening this: $2,495 & $2700 framework. 20 People who are interested can get a $1997 product for $100. I would be more inclined to connect on a group think basis of $100 & connect w/ people that bought together vs. not being able to even contact customer support or even get the truth from the owner of the product who is never around anyway.
      At the end of the day, ETHICS, has nothing to do with it. It's about whether or not the value of what is being offered is worth it.
      Now that is food for thought... Great post...

      James
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    • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
      Then it's ok if I buy your WSO and share it with a few friends. You don't mind do you?

      Originally Posted by darrin_cooper View Post

      There's absolutely nothing wrong with this at all.

      Let's take the flip side of your argument for example -- The big time gurus who have existing large lists with partner affiliates. The partner affiliates get a special "Affiliate Deals" and higher percentages vs. the "other" affiliates. Also, they are sometimes given even an advanced look at the product without buying. So, when a big Launch is scheduled, on a certain date, only the specific group MASS BLASTS everyone to purchase their product. And it's like a Round-Robin of Week after week after week of I scratch your back you scratch mine style of marketing.

      I can tell you this, without the support of the 20 - 50 "Partner Affiliates" as a group, there would be no way that ANY of these gurus pushing these products would achieve the sales they are saying

      Therefore, if it benefits others to purchase the product to simply see the "TRUTH" and pay a lower cost, so be it. To say it's not ethical,
      then back what is ethical about gurus all getting together & blasting out the same email trying to get the latest guru affiliate prize?

      I think it's a great idea to take what is happening now, is that costs are going up from the "$1997" framework, to now what is happening this: $2,495 & $2700 framework. 20 People who are interested can get a $1997 product for $100. I would be more inclined to connect on a group think basis of $100 & connect w/ people that bought together vs. not being able to even contact customer support or even get the truth from the owner of the product who is never around anyway.
      At the end of the day, ETHICS, has nothing to do with it. It's about whether or not the value of what is being offered is worth it.
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      • Profile picture of the author TheRichJerksNet
        Originally Posted by Scott Ames View Post

        Then it's ok if I buy your WSO and share it with a few friends. You don't mind do you?
        Scott,
        I think his point was that if you have partners or a staff then it is not exactly fair that you should have to purchase 4 or 5 copies of a course just for your staff to learn some new methods that you plan to put into action.

        For example - I have several staff that I have been working with for years, if I purchased a course on email marketing that cost $1,997 but my staff and I actually split that cost since we all will be using the method since we all do work together. Then this should be fair, because if it is not fair then there is no way I would fork out $8,000 to cover myself and my staff... Thus the seller would lose out 100%.

        Now I would not pay that kind of money for any course but that is me.. I do not buy online courses. But this is what I got from his post, maybe I read it wrong or something but this is what I got from it...

        James

        Edit: I am not speaking about CD's or software or scripts... I am specifically speaking in terms of your thread title "courses" which to me means some type of pdf, online training, documents, or something...
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        • Profile picture of the author rosetrees
          Originally Posted by TheRichJerksNet View Post

          I am specifically speaking in terms of your thread title "courses" which to me means some type of pdf, online training, documents, or something...
          So if you were running an offline course, would you be happy if you were paid for just one place but 10 people turned up and told you they'd shared the cost of coming?

          Surely - if you are buying in a course to train your staff or colleagues then you should be negotiating a group license?
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          • Profile picture of the author TheRichJerksNet
            Originally Posted by rosetrees View Post

            So if you were running an offline course, would you be happy if you were paid for just one place but 10 people turned up and told you they'd shared the cost of coming?

            Surely - if you are buying in a course to train your staff or colleagues then you should be negotiating a group license?
            Again I do not buy courses, I just found Darrin's post an interesting point...

            But yeah I could also agree if there is a way to contact the owner and ask about a group rate then that would be the right thing to do ....

            James
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Scott Ames View Post

    I exaggerate but that's what I see going on around the net. "I want XXX course, want to share the cost with me and 3 other guys?"
    What's unethical about that? You sell one more copy of your course, where you wouldn't have sold anything... and the people who get it don't use it anyway.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
      My partner Don and I "share" information products that we buy...I don't buy them for my personal use - I buy them for my business, Don is part of my business as i am part of his.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
        Originally Posted by Steve Porcaro View Post

        You know this is an interesting topic, as the is a Warrior that did a great job with a book on recipes from restaurants and other eateries.

        However how many people may not be eating out now and hurting those businesses? The Warrior explained how they went about getting the recipes and some of the time it was asking direct questions of the employees.

        I like what he did and it was very creative, however I think there is a level of forgiveness given that we like this warrior, and he did it against evil corporations.

        However it is the same principle I think, actually there may also be trademark infringement, but I am not a legal person. But If I title something Jack Daniels B-B-Q sauce recipe it is possible?
        There's no copyright on food recipes - at least not in the UK.
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by Rezbi View Post

          There's no copyright on food recipes - at least not in the UK.
          ACTUALLY, there IS! It is REQUIRED by international treaty!

          List of parties to international copyright agreements - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


          United Kingdom 1887-12-05 1957-09-27 1974-07-10 1995-01-01 signed

          SO, the UK is a party to the treaties of 1887,1957,1974,1995, and CURRENT!

          Plainly put, if they don't honor it, they break international law, may have sanctions and, frankly, nobody ELSE has to honor THEIR part of the deal. So the US wouldn't have to honor UK copyrights!

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            ACTUALLY, there IS! It is REQUIRED by international treaty!

            List of parties to international copyright agreements - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


            United Kingdom 1887-12-05 1957-09-27 1974-07-10 1995-01-01 signed

            SO, the UK is a party to the treaties of 1887,1957,1974,1995, and CURRENT!

            Plainly put, if they don't honor it, they break international law, may have sanctions and, frankly, nobody ELSE has to honor THEIR part of the deal. So the US wouldn't have to honor UK copyrights!

            Steve
            Read the first paragraph of this, last sentence.

            Recipes do not have copyright - I got that from a lawyer.

            And here's a little more light reading:
            http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl122.html
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    • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      What's unethical about that? You sell one more copy of your course, where you wouldn't have sold anything... and the people who get it don't use it anyway.
      I see your point. These people are not likely to use it true..

      If you are in the same office, a partner in business, and it's a copy for the business, I don't see a problem either. What I see is that someone in Hawaii is "sharing" a copy with someone in New York and they have no other business relationship other than splitting the cost of a course. Then, they copy the the course for the other person. CD's easily copied, DVD's easily copied, manuals can be copied, etc. One takes the copy or perhaps they split it up so one gets half the originals , etc.

      Maybe some product creators don't care. Perhaps it does create a sale that would otherwise not occur, I don't know.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Scott Ames View Post

        Maybe some product creators don't care. Perhaps it does create a sale that would otherwise not occur, I don't know.
        I've been rather a fan of Jared's idea to use pirate communities to your advantage, and my research indicates that when these communities organise a group purchase... many of them temporarily block access to anyone who didn't contribute. Sometimes for as much as six months.

        I think it's rather a positive thing to block access to your product for six months in a pirate community. I may be scouting for invitations to a few of them when I'm preparing for my own product's launch.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Scott Ames View Post

        I see your point. These people are not likely to use it true..

        If you are in the same office, a partner in business, and it's a copy for the business, I don't see a problem either. What I see is that someone in Hawaii is "sharing" a copy with someone in New York and they have no other business relationship other than splitting the cost of a course. Then, they copy the the course for the other person. CD's easily copied, DVD's easily copied, manuals can be copied, etc. One takes the copy or perhaps they split it up so one gets half the originals , etc.

        Maybe some product creators don't care. Perhaps it does create a sale that would otherwise not occur, I don't know.
        OK, dibs on the way to satisfy your requirements! Who wants in? $5? I'm game!
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    • Profile picture of the author Rich Struck
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      What's unethical about that? You sell one more copy of your course, where you wouldn't have sold anything... and the people who get it don't use it anyway.
      How is it okay for 20 people to gain access to my site for the price of one? On my planet, that is called "theft." Not sure where you are but please stay far, far away from my sites.
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  • Profile picture of the author Star Riley
    Ethics versus Non Ethics that is the question. It may be a okay or maybe not.

    Okay I've made up my mind by way of my wife who say's She buys books from Barnes and Nobles she reads em and maybe a relative reads then she takes it to the doctors office and leaves it for others to read.

    Now as a marketer if I sell a product and you copy it then ask for a refund while placing my stuff in the black-hat forum for everyone to access then that would be un-cool.

    As a consumer buying things online who happens to stumble onto BH forum that may seem cool.

    All in all people who make money make money and people may buy together or just out right steal in the end if a person has the mind to steal then they will reap what they sow. If a group has the mind to share they too will reap what they sow after all what goes around comes around.

    I would rather the group shafting to the rough black hater any day.

    I'll post again if and when I make up my mind.
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  • Profile picture of the author michael_nguyen
    its no different than buying something and learning from it and then regurgitating back to your forum and friends. thw whole wso section is like that.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tom Brite
    I was just going to come in here and have a really big go at you... then i recognised the avatar and was like wtf all my trust has gone for this guy now!

    Then im glad i read the actual topic and re-read it as im now all calm and now need to take my anger out on someone or something else!

    Tom Brite
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  • Profile picture of the author BigVin
    Interesting post.

    Had me going for a minute. Damn you guys!
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    • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
      In these economically challenging times, it's prudent to explore different business models.

      So, you buy my product and share it with 3 others. If there was a way that the sharers all got onto my list, that's really just a couple of steps removed from giving an affiliate 100% commission on the front end. Hmm...May not be a bad deal.

      Or, I start a buyers' club and charge my members $10 a month for access to discounted products. If I then approach you and offer to buy 250 copies of your new digitally downloadable product at, say, 75% discount, might you be tempted?

      If so, say we then agreed that instead of my downloading your product 250 times, I would just download one and copy it for my members.

      Now we're getting close to the principle suggested by the OP.


      Interesting.



      Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Scott Ames View Post

    I exaggerate but that's what I see going on around the net. "I want XXX course, want to share the cost with me and 3 other guys?"

    Personally I don't think that is ethical but I know it happens. I guess it's better than people that order, copy, then refund. Still it's a poverty mentality and I don't think those that get a course this way will use it. {my assumption is ) They are course collectors that's all.
    Ethical? It's theft. Nothing less.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ram
      Ever buy a book and then let someone else read it? I suspect most of us have. And didn't think we were doing anything wrong.

      Not much difference, really.

      People are free to lend or resell just about anything they buy. Sites like eBay, half.com, etc., carry a lot of books, courses, CDs, records, etc. There is not a court in the U.S. that would tell me I can't sell an a copy of a physical infoproduct, like Traffic Secrets 1, that I bought.

      So if we are talking about a group buy of a physical product, probably perfectly legal. Hell, people go halves on cars, stereos, furniture, books, etc.

      Lot of grey with digital products, though. We like to think that our "terms of service" have legal weight. But the truth is it's largely untested in court. Sure, copying copyrighted material is illegal. Selling illegally copied material is illegal. And it;s hard to imagine a group buy that doesn't involve illegal copying. But what about a printout of a pdf? I print out every pdf I buy. A lot of people do. Can you legally share that single copy? Who knows ... but I bet a good lawyer could make a case that it is no different from sharing the latest John Grisham novel you bought with your mother.

      I don't like it. Many don't. But that's where we are. And it's only going to get worse. Respect for intellectual property is at an all-time low and getting lower as the tech of sharing gets ever, ever, ever easier.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        You could also have a business model that doesn't require your customers to be honest. It's nice if they are, of course... but if you can't guarantee that, and you can't control that, don't build your business on that ideal.

        I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying it's the reality of modern society. You have to accept that people do things you don't think are right, because they don't think these things are wrong.

        You can't win that battle. It's a struggle of ideals, and there's simply no reason for them to follow your ideals when it's clearly to their disadvantage.
        Agreed, But I won't just give up either!

        Originally Posted by Ram View Post

        Ever buy a book and then let someone else read it? I suspect most of us have. And didn't think we were doing anything wrong.

        Not much difference, really.

        People are free to lend or resell just about anything they buy. Sites like eBay, half.com, etc., carry a lot of books, courses, CDs, records, etc. There is not a court in the U.S. that would tell me I can't sell an a copy of a physical infoproduct, like Traffic Secrets 1, that I bought.

        So if we are talking about a group buy of a physical product, probably perfectly legal. Hell, people go halves on cars, stereos, furniture, books, etc.

        Lot of grey with digital products, though. We like to think that our "terms of service" have legal weight. But the truth is it's largely untested in court. Sure, copying copyrighted material is illegal. Selling illegally copied material is illegal. And it;s hard to imagine a group buy that doesn't involve illegal copying. But what about a printout of a pdf? I print out every pdf I buy. A lot of people do. Can you legally share that single copy? Who knows ... but I bet a good lawyer could make a case that it is no different from sharing the latest John Grisham novel you bought with your mother.

        I don't like it. Many don't. But that's where we are. And it's only going to get worse. Respect for intellectual property is at an all-time low and getting lower as the tech of sharing gets ever, ever, ever easier.
        Also Agree although if you were to create more than one copy and gave it away to friends then you would most likely be in violation of the copyright laws.

        Have a Great Day!
        michael
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  • Profile picture of the author charlesburke
    All this talk about morals and ethics and which is "right"er than the other.

    I've never in my entire life met anyone who thought their own ethics were wrong. So, your ethics... are they right? Are you sure? Ask your neighbor... if you dare.

    Cheers from warm and smiling Thailand,
    Charles
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  • Profile picture of the author greff
    I know my wife, the lawyer, would say it is stealing under the law. I'm for sharing.

    I have yet to see a course worth more than a small amount of money, though.
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    A true "group buy" in the legal sense is more akin to a wholesale discount, not a single purchase shared with multiple users (typically in violation of that license).

    It's not uncommon in audio recording forums where everyone wants to grab a new plug in or softsynth for their ProTools or DP rig. The forum owner negotiates a group buy with the publisher. Typically, these are tiered discounts. The more members that join the group buy, the lower the price (up to a predetermined ceiling).

    Think in terms of a big one-time sales event of deeply discounted individually licensed products. The value for each purchaser in the group is their own valid and legit license. The value for the publisher is a large sale of multiple copies of their product at once.

    It's not surprising but nonetheless disappointing that an ever growing population labors under the mistaken notion that just because you pay for something you now own it. Not true... especially in terms of digital products, but also the case for some physical products.

    If you buy my band's CD, you don't own the music, or the right to decide how it's distributed. You can sell or give your personal copy of the CD to someone else. You can loan your CD to someone else. But you can't COPY the CD and give it away to 10 friends just because you bought a copy.

    All that said, pissing into the wind is never a smart move... and most of the moves made by merchants and sellers of intellectual property do little to either curb the behavior or keep the backspray off their face.

    Group purchases as micro membership sites? Hmmm. Community, cheaper pricing... That's what the market wants... Not much different than the rubric of affiliate sales if you think about it.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod View Post

      But you can't COPY the CD and give it away to 10 friends just because you bought a copy.
      Actually, the Audio Home Recording Act of 1992 explicitly protects this right under section 1008.

      And then there's the doctrine of "fair use," which a lot of people use to excuse their behaviour... you can make copies for educational purposes. Trouble is, you can make copies of what you're being educated about, but not what you're being educated by - just because a CD is educational in and of itself doesn't mean you can copy it and that's fair use. It means you can copy it and teach people about that CD. A lot of people simply don't grasp what this means.

      Basically, if your music were to be used in a music class, the teacher could copy your CD and pass it out for people to study. But if you made a CD lecturing about music, it is not fair use for the teacher to make copies and hand them out as homework instead of writing original course material.

      I'm not a lawyer, but IP law is something of a hobby for me. It gets pretty hairy, and that's what makes it fun.
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      • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        Actually, the Audio Home Recording Act of 1992 explicitly protects this right under section 1008.
        Hey Caliban,

        Like you, IANAL, but I've got to disagree with you on that.

        That section of the act is largely about protecting the manufacturers of digital reproduction equipment (DAT machines) and media (modern CDR's for example). In fact, the whole point of the legislation was the somewhat absurd mandate of the collection of a paltry royalty that interested industry parties would collectively share in thereby offsetting the "losses" from the ability to digitally clone a recording bit for bit.

        IMO, the marketplace confusion arises from common misunderstanding of the provisions for making PERSONAL copies of the digital recording MEDIUM. In other words, you can make as many copies of Mudvayne's new CD as you want for your own personal use, but you CANNOT share or distribute those copies to others under that same protection.

        It's cool that you're into the topic (and it's an interesting topic to be sure).
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        • Profile picture of the author rosetrees
          I wonder how M1cr0s0ft would react if we clubbed together to buy a copy of W1ind0ze and then shared it.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod View Post

          Like you, IANAL, but I've got to disagree with you on that.
          It's sort of buried at the end, but it's quite clear...

          "No action may be brought under this title alleging infringement of copyright based on the manufacture, importation, or distribution of a digital audio recording device, a digital audio recording medium, an analog recording device, or an analog recording medium, or based on the noncommercial use by a consumer of such a device or medium for making digital musical recordings or analog musical recordings."

          There's no clear definition of "noncommercial," of course, which leaves it good and hairy... but it doesn't say "personal." You could make a copy for someone else, provided you did not do so commercially. The Senate report outright stated that making a copy for a family member was noncommercial.

          I do think you would have to do some fast talking to convince someone you made ten copies of the same CD for no commercial benefit at all. Someone could pretty easily argue that if all your friends also copied CDs ten times for their friends, as a matter of course, that this was actually a barter enterprise trading copies for copies... commercially.
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Bard
    I guess I'm old school when it comes to this kind of stuff.

    If you have to get together to discuss whether or not something is right or wrong...

    Matt
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  • Profile picture of the author vual
    i would be interested... despite the unethical arguments. PM me if its still in action.
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    • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
      Originally Posted by vual View Post

      i would be interested... despite the unethical arguments. PM me if its still in action.
      I was never serious, it was sarcasm.
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  • Profile picture of the author MunkMurray
    I don't see the problem, it's just like physical product, you buy a book, you read it then you give it to a friend to read.

    as long as it's not mass copying, I think it's okay...
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    • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
      I think his point was that if you have partners or a staff then it is not exactly fair that you should have to purchase 4 or 5 copies of a course just for your staff to learn some new methods that you plan to put into action.

      For example - I have several staff that I have been working with for years, if I purchased a course on email marketing that cost $1,997 but my staff and I actually split that cost since we all will be using the method since we all do work together. Then this should be fair, because if it is not fair then there is no way I would fork out $8,000 to cover myself and my staff... Thus the seller would lose out 100%.
      It depends how the course is consumed whether or not this is OK.

      If you buy one copy and duplicate it so everyone has their own copy, this is illegal. Corporations know this, and that is why they buy licenses in situations like this.

      On the other hand, if you buy one copy and everyone gets a turn reading/listening to it, that is perfectly fine. This is like buying one copy for a company or public library and only one person can check it out at a time.

      So to get back to the original question, if people get together and chip in for the cost and take turns with the product, there's no problem whatsoever. If they get together and chip in for the cost and everyone gets a copy, that's piracy.

      Marcia Yudkin
      (information publisher, not a lawyer)
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      • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
        I agree, that is totally clear.

        Originally Posted by marciayudkin View Post

        It depends how the course is consumed whether or not this is OK.

        If you buy one copy and duplicate it so everyone has their own copy, this is illegal. Corporations know this, and that is why they buy licenses in situations like this.

        On the other hand, if you buy one copy and everyone gets a turn reading/listening to it, that is perfectly fine. This is like buying one copy for a company or public library and only one person can check it out at a time.

        So to get back to the original question, if people get together and chip in for the cost and take turns with the product, there's no problem whatsoever. If they get together and chip in for the cost and everyone gets a copy, that's piracy.

        Marcia Yudkin
        (information publisher, not a lawyer)
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        • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
          It may be clear but it is totally wrong. If a product says it is for personal use only that means it is for YOUR personal use only. Most products expressly add wording to the TOS saying you do not have the right to give the product to anyone else, regardless of if you have already consumed it and are finished with it.

          When you purchase a digital product you are not actually buying the product. You are only buying the right to view the product. You do not "own" it and do not have any rights to it other than for your own personal viewing.

          Unless you buy full rights to the product, meaning the original product owner gives up all rights and you are now the legal owner and copyright holder of the product, then you have nothing more than the right to personally view the material and to take personal action on what you learn from the product.

          Digital products are not hard bound books and are covered under different copyright and IP laws. The laws that state you can give a book away when your done with it do not apply to digital products and that excuse doesn't hold any water.

          Originally Posted by Scott Ames View Post

          I agree, that is totally clear.
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          • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
            It may be clear but it is totally wrong. If a product says it is for personal use only that means it is for YOUR personal use only. Most products expressly add wording to the TOS saying you do not have the right to give the product to anyone else, regardless of if you have already consumed it and are finished with it.
            Please show me where in the original post it said we were talking about digital products where the terms of service say it is for your personal use only.

            I sell and buy courses that are either tangible products or partly so. I have no problem with someone selling my courses on ebay or anywhere else after they've finished with them.

            If everyone else is talking only about digital products, then it would have been nice if someone had made this explicit.

            Marcia Yudkin
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          • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
            You may be right if its digital. I found this: (While not a legal opinion it is somewhat informative)

            Fair use restrictions. Most digital media products come with a variety of limitations designed to restrict their usage. Depending on the source, you may or may not have the ability to make a copy for personal use. Likewise, DRM restrictions may prevent you from playing your media content on the device of your choice. And don't even think about sharing with your friends. Despite Microsoft's attempt to facilitate legal file sharing, digital media products can't be shared in the same way physical media products can. While it's perfectly legal to loan a DVD box set to your neighbor, you would likely have to break any number of federal laws to do the same with the digital equivalent of the same content.




            So we have different rules of use depending on if its a digital or a physical product.




            Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

            It may be clear but it is totally wrong. If a product says it is for personal use only that means it is for YOUR personal use only. Most products expressly add wording to the TOS saying you do not have the right to give the product to anyone else, regardless of if you have already consumed it and are finished with it.

            When you purchase a digital product you are not actually buying the product. You are only buying the right to view the product. You do not "own" it and do not have any rights to it other than for your own personal viewing.

            Unless you buy full rights to the product, meaning the original product owner gives up all rights and you are now the legal owner and copyright holder of the product, then you have nothing more than the right to personally view the material and to take personal action on what you learn from the product.

            Digital products are not hard bound books and are covered under different copyright and IP laws. The laws that state you can give a book away when your done with it do not apply to digital products and that excuse doesn't hold any water.
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  • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
    Just as a little experiment... Call up Microsoft and inform them that you have a business that has 10 employees and that you intend on buying one copy of thier operating system and installing it on all 10 employees computers because your "business" is buying the software. They will tell you real quick that each copy is for personal use and only one person can use it. They are not going to give you 10 serial numbers just because you want to share the software with your "business."

    There is no difference in the situation above and what is being discussed here. Legally, if a product owner states that you do not have the right to distribute the product to anyone else, then you do not have that right, regardless of how much you try to rationalize and argue the point.
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    • Profile picture of the author Al Vaughan
      Everyone talks about ethics, is it right or is it wrong? , bring out a really good product launch it and what happens it's on Ebay a few days later selling for 99c. Now were's the ethics in that.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

      Legally, if a product owner states that you do not have the right to distribute the product to anyone else, then you do not have that right, regardless of how much you try to rationalize and argue the point.
      The issue for me is a little different than that. I say you don't have the right; you don't have the right. We're in agreement there.

      But let's say you do it anyway. Now what?

      I'm of the opinion that if this is some sort of horrible tragedy for your business, something is wrong with your business.
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      • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
        It's not a matter of how much damage it "might" do to your business. That has nothing at all to do with it. If something is illegal then it is illegal, regardless of how much of an effect it has on your business.

        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        The issue for me is a little different than that. I say you don't have the right; you don't have the right. We're in agreement there.

        But let's say you do it anyway. Now what?

        I'm of the opinion that if this is some sort of horrible tragedy for your business, something is wrong with your business.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        The issue for me is a little different than that. I say you don't have the right; you don't have the right. We're in agreement there.

        But let's say you do it anyway. Now what?

        I'm of the opinion that if this is some sort of horrible tragedy for your business, something is wrong with your business.
        There are plenty of ways of dealing with criminals, whether they be cyber or not. There's something wrong with your business if you don't go after them with everything you've got. You'll soon be overrun with the vermin if you don't.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          There's something wrong with your business if you don't go after them with everything you've got.
          If I'm off chasing criminals, who's taking care of my customers?

          Somebody is going to.
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            If I'm off chasing criminals, who's taking care of my customers?

            Somebody is going to.
            I have a website that is making great money and quite a few people have attempted to rip off the product ... I take care of my business, which includes security and my customers, but some are incapable of multi-tasking, I guess.

            This remark is just another rather poor excuse for making light of online theft of products that some have worked hard to develop.
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            • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              some are incapable of multi-tasking, I guess.
              Where's the upside?

              Usually, you don't catch anyone. If you do, and you send him to jail, it's only for a few months. If you sue, and you get a judgment, he's not going to pay it. Either way, the guy you caught has a grudge against you, and probably knows unsavoury people who will do nasty things to you.

              And every once in a while, there's one of those stunningly unfortunate people who are perpetual victims. Homeless orphans who stole your ebook on a library computer so they could try and find a way to make money for food with AdSense. Welcome to the front page; hope you have a good PR department.

              None of those things are good! They all suck! WTF is in it for me?
              Signature
              "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                Banned
                Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                Where's the upside?

                Usually, you don't catch anyone. If you do, and you send him to jail, it's only for a few months. If you sue, and you get a judgment, he's not going to pay it. Either way, the guy you caught has a grudge against you, and probably knows unsavoury people who will do nasty things to you.

                And every once in a while, there's one of those stunningly unfortunate people who are perpetual victims. Homeless orphans who stole your ebook on a library computer so they could try and find a way to make money for food with AdSense. Welcome to the front page; hope you have a good PR department.

                None of those things are good! They all suck! WTF is in it for me?
                If you believe that you can't or don't catch them, then read my latest post on domaingdiva.com. It's often simple to catch and stop them. I'm finding so many people in this forum who have every rationalization in the book why this is acceptable or a part of doing business or not worth pursuing that it's a wonder anyone in this forum feels safe discussing their products.

                This forum is full of budding entrepreneurs working hard to create their products and the growing number of people in this forum who think that theft is ok or not worth the effort to stop it is unacceptable. I don't care if it's just one little ebook or one little site I built or one little anything, I will do what it takes to secure my hard work from thieves and do what it takes to put them out of business, at least with my products, when it happens.

                A gang of little homeless orphans ... give me a break. The whole point is that I am not one of those who are a perpetual victim. I am proactive in protecting my business and taking care of my customers.
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                • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                  Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                  I don't care if it's just one little ebook or one little site I built or one little anything, I will do what it takes to secure my hard work from thieves and do what it takes to put them out of business, at least with my products, when it happens
                  How's that working out for you?

                  Gotten you a lot of customers?

                  Increased your bottom line?

                  Improved your business?

                  Because honestly, I don't see it doing anything except sucking up time, energy, and effort you could have put toward something else.
                  Signature
                  "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                    How's that working out for you?

                    Gotten you a lot of customers?

                    Increased your bottom line?

                    Improved your business?

                    Because honestly, I don't see it doing anything except sucking up time, energy, and effort you could have put toward something else.

                    I don't give a rats a** what you don't see. Seems to be a lot of things you don't "get". As for my bottom line, it's sick how much money I make. As for customers, more than my share. Improved my business? Absolutely .... Want to know why? Because I have a profitable online business that when the time is right, I am going to flip for big bucks and the new owner can rest assured that the business has been taken care of and my product isn't all over the Internet due to lack of security.

                    But hey ... according to your justifications and rationalizations, let's say I'm stoned broke and maybe even an orphan. It's ok if I come get your car and maybe some of your more intriguing household goods ... be right over.
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                • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
                  Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                  If you believe that you can't or don't catch them, then read my latest post on domaingdiva.com. It's often simple to catch and stop them. I'm finding so many people in this forum who have every rationalization in the book why this is acceptable or a part of doing business or not worth pursuing that it's a wonder anyone in this forum feels safe discussing their products.

                  This forum is full of budding entrepreneurs working hard to create their products and the growing number of people in this forum who think that theft is ok or not worth the effort to stop it is unacceptable. I don't care if it's just one little ebook or one little site I built or one little anything, I will do what it takes to secure my hard work from thieves and do what it takes to put them out of business, at least with my products, when it happens.

                  A gang of little homeless orphans ... give me a break. The whole point is that I am not one of those who are a perpetual victim. I am proactive in protecting my business and taking care of my customers.
                  I agree with you.

                  the problem is not everyone who deals with pirated stuff even realise they're doing wrong.

                  I'll put my hands up and admit I did buy and even download stuff from torrent sites, but that was without thinking.

                  There's just so much stuff you can buy off ebay and then find out it's pirated.

                  Then, one day, it just dawned on me what I was doing and, as a result I literally took every, and I mean EVERYTHING, even things I just suspected could be pirated but not definite about, and I packed them all up in bags and disposed of them.

                  Some I even got in touch with the original owners to see if they had a problem as I had paid for them and, if they objected, they were disposed of.

                  What I'm trying to say is, it's possible not everyone is thinking about the wrong they're committing and it's probably best to find that out first before laying into them.

                  I personally think if there's any doubt then it's best to get in touch with the copyright owner and find out if there would be a problem.
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              • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
                None of those things are good! They all suck! WTF is in it for me?
                I once got a nice speaking engagement at a yacht club because I had put a visible copyright notice on one of my reports. The woman who hired me told me that she generally photocopied stuff she read that she liked and sent it off to her clients with a sticky note, but because I said reproduction required written permission, she was not comfortable doing that. She had me come and speak to her clients instead for a nice fee at a classy breakfast meeting.

                Marcia Yudkin
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                Check out Marcia Yudkin's No-Hype Marketing Academy for courses on copywriting, publicity, infomarketing, marketing plans, naming, and branding - not to mention the popular "Marketing for Introverts" course.
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              • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
                Sometimes I am reminded that some people just should not be involved in business. Using the logic that you are trying to use here you might as well just take everything you own out of your house and throw it into the yard. It will make it easier for the thief who might want your tv.

                Just because there is a possibility of someone stealing from you doesn't mean you are supposed to be ok with it and just say "stuff happens." I hope you never get a trademark on anything because it won't be long before the Govt takes it away from you. Even the Govt says if you don't fight for it you don't deserve it... lol

                Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                Where's the upside?

                Usually, you don't catch anyone. If you do, and you send him to jail, it's only for a few months. If you sue, and you get a judgment, he's not going to pay it. Either way, the guy you caught has a grudge against you, and probably knows unsavoury people who will do nasty things to you.

                And every once in a while, there's one of those stunningly unfortunate people who are perpetual victims. Homeless orphans who stole your ebook on a library computer so they could try and find a way to make money for food with AdSense. Welcome to the front page; hope you have a good PR department.

                None of those things are good! They all suck! WTF is in it for me?
                Signature

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                • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                  Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

                  Sometimes I am reminded that some people just should not be involved in business.
                  So am I.

                  You have customers who buy your products and services, and you have thieves who steal them.

                  Who deserves your attention?
                  Signature
                  "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author ahlexis
      Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

      Just as a little experiment... Call up Microsoft and inform them that you have a business that has 10 employees and that you intend on buying one copy of thier operating system and installing it on all 10 employees computers because your "business" is buying the software. They will tell you real quick that each copy is for personal use and only one person can use it. They are not going to give you 10 serial numbers just because you want to share the software with your "business."
      Actually in some cases they not only will accept this, but will encourage it, depending on the type of business you are in. And yes, they will either send you DVDs or allow you to download directly from their site depending on what you sign up for. Complete with 10 license numbers. It's called a TechNet subscription.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
        Originally Posted by ahlexis View Post

        Actually in some cases they not only will accept this, but will encourage it, depending on the type of business you are in. And yes, they will either send you DVDs or allow you to download directly from their site depending on what you sign up for. Complete with 10 license numbers. It's called a TechNet subscription.
        TechNet subscriptions are different to ordinary user subs.

        For every day use you need seperate lincenses, hence the reason why they sell servers and seats.
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      Interesting comments in this thread - from my corporate days, when a given course was purchased, a copy was purchased for every person taking it.

      When books/manuals, etc., were purchased, multiple copies were purchased and placed in a library for reference as needed (with permission).

      All software was licensed by installed copy - that one is still a corporate IT nightmare.

      Unless it's allowed by the licensing of the product or special agreement, I cannot agree with the concept of a "Group Share" of any product. To me, it's just plain wrong - and as business people/ IM'ers, I'm surprised anyone condones it here.

      For those of you buying info products, whether it's a $7 WSO or a $7K physical info product (CD's/DVD's, Books, etc.), you're paying for one copy for your personal use - not for your business and all of its staff, again, assuming no special licensing or other agreement have been extended.

      You can justify it to yourself anyway you want to - it's still wrong, especially when the intent is to specifically avoid paying for each copy viewed/used. You might as well just change your forum title to "Product Thief", because that is what you're doing. The fact that you paid something is not justification for doing it.

      Couldn't have said it any better. These people who have jumped in here condoning and rationalizing why stealing someone's product is ok would be the first ones to jump in here screaming if someone stole their product (which was probably created by stealing other people's products). They would be whining and crying foul and having little temper tantrums, but it's quite alright to click on the "I agree to TOS" button and then completely disregard it and give out a product that they have purchased ONE license for ONE person.
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    • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
      There are some really good posts and thoughts in this thread, but I'll put in my five bucks.

      If a few of us went in together to buy physical textbooks for our kids to share in class I don't think anyone would care or have a copyright concern.

      Now, put those textbooks in pdf format on a DVD and what is the difference? None. (So long as we're still talking about 1 DVD and not copying it.)

      While it easy for eBooks to "try" and create licenses for personal use instead of having a sale, it doesn't work that way.

      Although the law has certainly not caught up with the Internet and/or digital products in many respects, copyright law permits the owner to do with a book what they what - regardless of what the copyright owner tries to restrict.

      Software is different because of the easier ability to create an enforceable license. Putting a book in pdf format, though, instead of printing it on paper, does not make it a license instead of a sale.

      As an example, if I buy a physical book and the copyright owner has a statement on the 1st page saying the book is for personal use only and cannot be transferred to anyone else, that is unenforceable.

      Similarly, put that statement on your ebook and good luck trying to enforce it.

      If I buy that book I can let someone else borrow it. I can give it away. I can sell it at a garage sale. I can sell it on eBay. So long, of course, if I am not making copies but actually transferring in full what I have.

      This is also known as the "first sale doctrine" if you want to do further research beyond this limited thread.

      What gets tricky is that some software can be licensed and not sold, but the courts are all over the map on this. I think the key point for this thread, though, is that we are not talking about software.

      Although Big Mike mentions his corporate experience and buying multiple copies for a library, that is not my corporate experience in law offices. You buy a code book, reference manual, etc., put it on the library shelf, and all 100 attorneys can use it. 100 copies of the book are not purchased just because 100 people can access it.

      Sometimes, when court proceedings are hot, multiple people are using the same book, reading over someone's shoulder, etc.

      If it's a digital product additional licenses may be purchased, or the price is higher depending on the number of employees, but that is because unlike a physical book the license is often based on the number of people who can simultaneously access and use the digital product.

      Then, since there are potential simultaneous users it is like buying multiple copies of a physical product.

      But if there is an ebook costing $100 and 20 people want to chip in $5 to buy it as group, and then pass it around so that every week a new person has access to it, not much of a legal problem.

      Obviously, I'm not addressing any ethical issues here because the fact is some people cannot be trusted to honestly pass around an ebook jointly purchased and delete any copies from their computer. That's a big issue. Solve that problem and the debate goes away.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

        There are some really good posts and thoughts in this thread, but I'll put in my five bucks.

        If a few of us went in together to buy physical textbooks for our kids to share in class I don't think anyone would care or have a copyright concern.

        Now, put those textbooks in pdf format on a DVD and what is the difference? None. (So long as we're still talking about 1 DVD and not copying it.)

        While it easy for eBooks to "try" and create licenses for personal use instead of having a sale, it doesn't work that way.

        Although the law has certainly not caught up with the Internet and/or digital products in many respects, copyright law permits the owner to do with a book what they what - regardless of what the copyright owner tries to restrict.

        Software is different because of the easier ability to create an enforceable license. Putting a book in pdf format, though, instead of printing it on paper, does not make it a license instead of a sale.

        As an example, if I buy a physical book and the copyright owner has a statement on the 1st page saying the book is for personal use only and cannot be transferred to anyone else, that is unenforceable.

        Similarly, put that statement on your ebook and good luck trying to enforce it.

        If I buy that book I can let someone else borrow it. I can give it away. I can sell it at a garage sale. I can sell it on eBay. So long, of course, if I am not making copies but actually transferring in full what I have.

        This is also known as the "first sale doctrine" if you want to do further research beyond this limited thread.

        What gets tricky is that some software can be licensed and not sold, but the courts are all over the map on this. I think the key point for this thread, though, is that we are not talking about software.

        Although Big Mike mentions his corporate experience and buying multiple copies for a library, that is not my corporate experience in law offices. You buy a code book, reference manual, etc., put it on the library shelf, and all 100 attorneys can use it. 100 copies of the book are not purchased just because 100 people can access it.

        Sometimes, when court proceedings are hot, multiple people are using the same book, reading over someone's shoulder, etc.

        If it's a digital product additional licenses may be purchased, or the price is higher depending on the number of employees, but that is because unlike a physical book the license is often based on the number of people who can simultaneously access and use the digital product.

        Then, since there are potential simultaneous users it is like buying multiple copies of a physical product.

        But if there is an ebook costing $100 and 20 people want to chip in $5 to buy it as group, and then pass it around so that every week a new person has access to it, not much of a legal problem.

        Obviously, I'm not addressing any ethical issues here because the fact is some people cannot be trusted to honestly pass around an ebook jointly purchased and delete any copies from their computer. That's a big issue. Solve that problem and the debate goes away.
        I realize you are an attorney, and I am not, but the internet really has NOTHING to do with copyright law. It remains the same.

        Items on the computer are basically like programs, and most programs have licenses for ONE system. Many protective programs today come with, and advertise as a feature they have, three licenses. One for each computer. BORLAND(a software company) distinguished itself here in saying that THEIR copyright worked like a book. You could copy it to a trillion places, and they were ok with it as long as only one copy was used at a time, like a book would be. Microsoft isn't that way at all.

        Networks, such as the internet, HAVE complicated matters, and some, like microsoft, now have server and seat licenses. A server license can cover the whole server, but can be expensive, and a seat license is limited in the number of users. Their development licenses are generally limited to like 2 connections.

        In any event, selling selective additional license privileges for an adobe ebook would be difficult. It would be LEGAL, but there is no way to enforce and probably no way to really sue. I kind of like the idea on a bounty of an ebook others aren't allowed to sell, but HOW can you do that when some MAY be able to sell?

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Yeah .... all of a sudden, everyone who wants your product has "business partners". Try using that line to buy a seat at a business seminar or university. "Oh that will be 5 seats please because my "business partners" will need to see this too.
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    • Profile picture of the author snapper
      It almost seems like you need to be either idealistic or realistic. I agree with one of the first posters that you reap what you sow and I try and live as ethically as I possibly can but...we have our head in the sand if we think we can stop people obtaining product for nicks.

      Obviously this is a sad indictment of where society is at, but the only way it will ever change is if the will of the people collectively changes so that it is socially unacceptable for someone to use/read/consume something without paying the legitimate price. Is the will of the people sufficient for this to happen now?

      So as the OP was suggesting - perhaps we need to discuss how we overcome the hurdle, and as for fresh ideas on that problem - I am fresh out of ideas.
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  • Profile picture of the author snapper
    you spend several months creating something you've put your heart and sole in to
    Nice one Andy...Is that how foot in mouth starts...trying to get sole to heart.

    Sorry - Just feelin in 'spelling check' mode.
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  • Profile picture of the author gyar29
    An unethical and/or illegal action remains unethical and/or illegal regardless of what justification you use to convince yourself that it is not.

    The fact that you must formulate the justification in the first place is a pretty good indication that you may wish to refrain from the action.

    Justifying any action by convincing yourself that everyone is doing it is self-delusional.

    Not everyone cheats on their spouse. Not everyone drives over the speed limit. Not everyone pirates music. Not everyone pays for a digital product and then distributes that product to their peers. Not everyone does much of anything other than eat, sleep, and defecate.

    Perhaps everyone you know does it, but that says more about you and the people you choose to associate with than it does about society as a whole.

    Personal ethics and morals are choices we each must make. They are also choices we must live with. You may be able to argue to the public that your unethical choice was something other than unethical, but hopefully your own ethics and morals are strong enough that you know your argument for justifying that choice is bull****.

    If not then you have my sympathy. For Karma is truly a bitch.

    With that said, any one want to pony up for a pirated copy of whatever Stompernet is putting out on 09/09/09?

    If so, just send an email to imathief(at)gmail.com.

    We'll all hook up and pool our money together to buy a copy. After all I'm sure that the guys at stompernet will be making more money from that product than they should. It will be priced so high that they will obviously not be looking out for the little guy. Everyone else will be doing it so why should we not do it too. Plus their so smart that I'm sure their business model has been adjusted to somehow take advantage of the fact that everyone will be pirating their product anyway. Additionally, pirating a copy is really no different than loaning your friend a book isn't it? Most importantly, because we are we, we have a right to whatever information is contained in the product. They should be distributing it to us for free! The greedy aholes.

    Waiting to hear from you,
    Gene
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    • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
      You got me at the end there. I thought you were serious for a second. Whew.


      Originally Posted by gyar29 View Post

      An unethical and/or illegal action remains unethical and/or illegal regardless of what justification you use to convince yourself that it is not.

      The fact that you must formulate the justification in the first place is a pretty good indication that you may wish to refrain from the action.

      Justifying any action by convincing yourself that everyone is doing it is self-delusional.

      Not everyone cheats on their spouse. Not everyone drives over the speed limit. Not everyone pirates music. Not everyone pays for a digital product and then distributes that product to their peers. Not everyone does much of anything other than eat, sleep, and defecate.

      Perhaps everyone you know does it, but that says more about you and the people you choose to associate with than it does about society as a whole.

      Personal ethics and morals are choices we each must make. They are also choices we must live with. You may be able to argue to the public that your unethical choice was something other than unethical, but hopefully your own ethics and morals are strong enough that you know your argument for justifying that choice is bull****.

      If not then you have my sympathy. For Karma is truly a bitch.

      With that said, any one want to pony up for a pirated copy of whatever Stompernet is putting out on 09/09/09?

      If so, just send an email to imathief(at)gmail.com.

      We'll all hook up and pool our money together to buy a copy. After all I'm sure that the guys at stompernet will be making more money from that product than they should. It will be priced so high that they will obviously not be looking out for the little guy. Everyone else will be doing it so why should we not do it too. Plus their so smart that I'm sure their business model has been adjusted to somehow take advantage of the fact that everyone will be pirating their product anyway. Additionally, pirating a copy is really no different than loaning your friend a book isn't it? Most importantly, because we are we, we have a right to whatever information is contained in the product. They should be distributing it to us for free! The greedy aholes.

      Waiting to hear from you,
      Gene
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      • Profile picture of the author gyar29
        Originally Posted by Scott Ames View Post

        You got me at the end there. I thought you were serious for a second. Whew.
        Scott,

        Sorry about that. I was attempting to point out the absurd justifications many people will use to defend their actions. I frequently read their comments and shake my head as I think to myself "You've got to be kidding. Does this person really believe that crap?"

        I surely hope not.

        Anyway, I'll attempt to be less obfuscatory in the future. I surely don't want to be misunderstood in regard to an issue of this nature. After all, I may wish to work with Mr. Moffat in the future, and he seems to be generating a list of potential partners. I'd hate to think my name does not appear on that list do to a misunderstood post.

        Gene
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  • Profile picture of the author jmonda
    This all boils down to the context that it is used in. As this was already said on here. But personally I think this is a great idea for friends. If you buy one copy and leave it on one computer while you and you buddies use it I do not see a problem with it as long as you are not copying it and sending it to others. Especially in today's economy this can work out nicely.
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    • Profile picture of the author DeePower
      Speaking as someone who has a vested interest in book publishing, there is a vast difference between a hardcopy book and a digital product. When I buy a book I buy the rights to the paper and ink. I do not buy the rights to any of the information (words) in the book with the exception I may gain knowledge from those words or be entertained.

      I can sell the paper and ink but I can't sell the words. The words belong to the copyright holder. I can't copy the words to another format and sell them because I bought the book.

      If I buy a video I bought the plastic box and the material the CD is made of, but I don't own or have any rights to the sounds and images. I can sell the plastic box and the CD but I can't sell the sounds and images because I don't own them. I can't copy the sounds and images and sell them.

      Whatever rights you obtained when you bought a digital product are the rights you legally and ethically own. Period. Just because you can do something - make a copy- doesn't mean it's legal or ethical.

      Dee
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  • Profile picture of the author Whosyou
    How about: i get the first round....sorry course in, and you get the next?
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  • Profile picture of the author Ram
    I think everyone agrees that making a copy of copyrighted digital material is clearly illegal. And again, it's difficult to imagine a pool buy where illegal copies are NOT made.

    No argument there.

    The grey area is whether one can share what one has downloaded as long as there is no copying involved.

    For example, I cannot make you a copy of a song I download. That would be illegal. But I can lend you my Ipod to listen to the song if I want.

    And If I download an expensive video course onto my laptop, I have serious doubts allowing others access to my laptop would be held illegal in court.

    Again, marketers like to think we can write licenses and terms of service that dictate exactly what can and can't be done with a digital product once someone buys. "For your eyes only" and some such. But whether such things are actually enforceable - barring illegal copying, ripping and other obvious copyright infringement - is not really decided.
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  • Profile picture of the author HariVarrier
    Well, I really did thnk this was such a thread. Well anyway here are my thoughts on this

    -People who do this MAYBE course collectors but like always maybe not.
    -Yes it is a poverty mentality but you must understand their situation too. Maybe they are from a third world country who cannot afford to buy the ebook/software they want. Hence he runs to his friends or something and askes for a shared buying. n my opinion it is a helluva lot better than warez forums and doing chargebacks or buying cracked copy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
    Let's all come up with a course on how to chip in and share a course.

    Then we'll sell it... and I'll keep all the proceeds.

    Doesn't make sense to share everything, eh. :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
    I'm amazed at some of the responses in this thread.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
    I love threads like this. It really saves me a lot of time figuring out who I will and who I will NEVER work with or promote.
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  • Profile picture of the author Doug
    Guys,

    You own a car dealership and service center. Business is good. You are selling 15 to 20 cars a week, service department is booked solid weeks out and you are busy managing everything.

    One night the unthinkable happens. Someone comes through damaging several cars on the back of the lot and manages to steal a brand new car as well.

    That following morning, are you too busy managing customers to 'deal' with your losses?
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    You know, this really just doesn't matter.

    Chasing pirates is a waste of time.

    Believe me or not, I don't care.
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    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      You know, this really just doesn't matter.
      Then why keep replying?
      Chasing pirates is a waste of time.
      Tell any major company that. They will laugh you out of the room.

      I do see your point but if you do nothing, you will start loosing money.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

        Then why keep replying?
        I'm done trying to explain. It's not worth my time.

        See how that works?
        Signature
        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    I've bought software where you can put it on two computers, which works well for business partners.

    If you need to share a digital product with a business partner, why not ask the original creator for an extra licence?

    People say about sharing physical products, but the reality is sharing a physical product is still 1 product all the time. You could pass a book to 100 friends, but those friends do not all have a copy of it at the same time.

    Share an ebook or software to 100 friends, and you will find that more than 100 copies are passed around, as the friends also pass the copy on.

    If a person gives a book to a charity shop, library or friend, they no longer have a copy, but how many people pass on ebooks, and don't delete the original book?
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    • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
      You just jogged a memory of something that could earn marketers more money if they would only do it.

      Why not after purchase have an upsell, OTO, or downsell I guess you would call it, (upgrade?) that gives the person additional rights to share the product?

      IE: An ebook that costs $17...

      [] Add an additional license to share with one friend for only $5.00
      [] Add an additional three licenses to share with friends or your office $15.00

      You get the idea. This is done with software all the time, but not info products. I think it should be tested and see how it goes.


      Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

      I've bought software where you can put it on two computers, which works well for business partners.

      If you need to share a digital product with a business partner, why not ask the original creator for an extra licence?

      People say about sharing physical products, but the reality is sharing a physical product is still 1 product all the time. You could pass a book to 100 friends, but those friends do not all have a copy of it at the same time.

      Share an ebook or software to 100 friends, and you will find that more than 100 copies are passed around, as the friends also pass the copy on.

      If a person gives a book to a charity shop, library or friend, they no longer have a copy, but how many people pass on ebooks, and don't delete the original book?
      Signature

      Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm. -Winston Churchill

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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Peters Benn
    Maybe we should be trying to legitimise group buys, a multi user license. That will help those that are genuine in wanting to purchase. The rest have to be squashed and used in our efforts to sell things. (JOKE)

    Often in a group buy, the product is then freely shared - this is what I object to - not a bunch of people clubbing together and sharing, but I can totally understand why some do.

    What a lot of people don't get is that you don't tend to see serial refunders, product stealers and warez miesters becoming successful marketers very often. I'm not sure why this is - but I suspect a lot of them have information paralysis.

    Also, when you pay - you commit and psychologically I find, that makes me take action (I'm not wasting cash) and I actually benefit.

    Due to this, I don't download free reports anymore, - I simply never take action on them..
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  • Profile picture of the author catherine ford
    Never Mind buying it.
    If we all chip in we can
    get the latest course
    written and marketed

    Catherine.
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    • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
      Originally Posted by catherine ford View Post

      Never Mind buying it.
      If we all chip in we can
      get the latest course
      written and marketed

      Catherine.
      HaHa probably so.
      Signature

      Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm. -Winston Churchill

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