Are There Really Just 82 seats left??...(VERY Sneaky)

by JaniG
174 replies
Hey guys,

i know this thread may be a little Controversial, but im gonna go ahead.

I just got a message from Anik Singal about his new affiliate classroom offer.

The YouTube $325,789 Secret...

One funny thing i saw on the page while watching the video was that he had a little script
at the bottom saying how many seats there were left.

It started at like 600, then by the time i was at the end of the video, it went down to like 82!

if you go to the site i guarantee it will show more then 82

look at the picture below:



But the funny thing is, when i asked my friend to check out the site, he told me that it said there were 599 seat left! lol...

Which means its a fake script pretending that the seats are almost gone...

My question to you is this:

Do you think this is a little to sneaky and dis honest ?

or do you think its a great marketing strategy ?

i mean it probably is great for getting people to take action...

BUT

in the IM niche, many of us know that these type of scripts are fake and are not real time stats.

Whats your opinion ?

Jani
#leftcontroversial #leftvery #seats #sneaky
  • Profile picture of the author Jeff Usher
    Yes, it's dishonest as it is giving the visitor false and misleading information regarding the availability of their product.

    However, ask any marketing expert here and they will tell you it's a clever marketing ploy designed to to encourage people to take action.

    Depends which side of the fence you're on, customer or marketer !

    Jeff
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    • Profile picture of the author JaniG
      Originally Posted by Jeff Usher View Post

      Yes, it's dishonest as it is giving the visitor false and misleading information regarding the availability of their product.

      However, ask any marketing expert here and they will tell you it's a clever marketing ploy designed to to encourage people to take action.

      Depends which side of the fence you're on, customer or marketer !

      Jeff
      Yes i agree it is a great way to get people to take action.

      and as a marketer i can see how it can help make more sales etc...

      i guess thats marketing
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      • Profile picture of the author JazzOscar
        Originally Posted by teamfire View Post

        -----

        Do you think this is a little to sneaky and dis honest ?
        -----
        Yes.

        Originally Posted by teamfire View Post

        -----

        or do you think its a great marketing strategy ?
        -----
        Originally Posted by teamfire View Post

        Yes i agree it is a great way to get people to take action.

        and as a marketer i can see how it can help make more sales etc...

        i guess thats marketing
        Yes, it's deceitful marketing.

        Makes me lose some of the respect I otherwise might have for the marketer who does this. Also makes me wonder what other parts of the truth he/she takes easy upon.

        Marketers doing this at least makes it easier for the ethically minded amongst us to decide who not to follow/buy from/subscribe to.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Originally Posted by Jeff Usher View Post

      However, ask any marketing expert here and they will tell you it's a clever marketing ploy designed to to encourage people to take action.
      Wrong.

      I challenge you to find one legitimate marketing expert who would think that.
      Signature
      "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
      ~ Zig Ziglar
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      • Profile picture of the author Spencer Haws
        Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

        Wrong.

        I challenge you to find one legitimate marketing expert who would think that.
        So, are you suggesting the Anik is NOT a legitimate marketing expert? If not, at what point does someone become an expert? $10 million a year, $100 million? Or is it something besides size? Just curious, because Anik is a Hugely successful marketer.
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        • Profile picture of the author Lance K
          Originally Posted by The Redfox View Post

          So, are you suggesting the Anik is NOT a legitimate marketing expert? If not, at what point does someone become an expert? $10 million a year, $100 million? Or is it something besides size? Just curious, because Anik is a Hugely successful marketer.
          IMO...

          Ligitimate = Experiencing success without resorting to underhanded TACTICS.

          Also, I've never said boo about him here. I do not wish to discuss individuals. Only the use of this tactic.

          I mentioned that earlier. It's a shame that his name was brought into it even if he is the basis of the example. For all I know, Andy is right and an assistant/outsourcer was responsible for putting up the page and this happened without his knowledge. I don't know one way or the other and don't care to speculate.

          Who did it is irrelevant. My point is that this tactic (unless the count is completely accurate) is BUSH LEAGUE! I don't have a problem with limiting and counting down the spots. What I have a problem with is when it's all fake.
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          ~ Zig Ziglar
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  • Profile picture of the author SRLee
    It shows 650+ seats left when I visit the link. BUSTED.

    But if I could do this, I would. I just don't know how lol.
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  • Profile picture of the author Danny Turner
    mmm perhaps some are fooled - those posting here were not - how important is credibility?
    how can I believe anything these people say after viewing deceitful tactics on home page?
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  • As a copywriter as well as a site owner with my own products I have mixed feelings about this one. I don't believe I would use it myself, but I would that choice up to my clients as what they will do.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jim Phillips
      Hi Jani,

      It all depends in their marketing plan.

      Are they using different techniques to create a buzz? Are they showing a preview of some techniques that have been used and tested that have proven to be valuable? Who knows what valuable content they might offer in their affiliate class.

      Personally I'd like to learn as many leading edge techniques as possible.

      Sometimes great ideas used properly can bring greater results.

      The sex industry online would use many advance marketing forms to draw consumers into their sites. Many of their ideas, used in scripts, were very valuable in building massive mailing lists.

      My thought is to learn and test. Adapt it to your marketing plans... if it proves valuable for you... use it.

      As far as salesletters. Think how many of those stories are actually fiction or non fiction. They draw a picture in your mind. Painting a pretty picture helps our minds see what we want and then take action.

      Girls in beer commercials.

      Sure do sell a lot of beer.

      How many drunks wake up in the morning with a beautiful girl next to them?

      Best Regards,

      Jim

      PS. Think of all the javascripts being used to show todays date. Even though the salesletter is 2 years old.

      Does it hurt or help the content?

      How about the exit popover that offers $20.00 dollars off if you purchase now. Is that a slap in the face to those who purchased first?

      What about the chat desk scripts that offer money off if you click here now? Is it being deceitful? Where's the live chat person? Or is it just another marketing technique to make the sale?
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      • Profile picture of the author JazzOscar
        Originally Posted by Jim Phillips View Post

        ----

        As far as salesletters. Think how many of those stories are actually fiction or non fiction. They draw a picture in your mind. Painting a pretty picture helps our minds see what we want and then take action.

        Girls in beer commercials.

        Sure do sell a lot of beer.

        How many drunks wake up in the morning with a beautiful girl next to them? -----
        Most people know that the truth percentage of marketing stories may be so and so, whether you like it or not.

        What makes lying about spots left for some opportunity far worse then the above, at least in my opinion, is that you lie about something that is easily perceived as very exact. The product that is sold may be a good and interesting product, and someone might just go ahead and by it ahead of taking due time to think about if he/she really needs the product just because they panic. Then they've been deceived. Scarcity is ok if it's real, false scarcity is deceit.

        Originally Posted by Jim Phillips View Post

        ----

        How about the exit popover that offers $20.00 dollars off if you purchase now. Is that a slap in the face to those who purchased first?-----
        It might be a slap in the face. The customer may be furious and he might feel that he's been taken advantage of. He has not been deceived though. He was offered a product at a given price and entered into a contract with the seller based on that price. Offering a lower price at a later point my be both distasteful and annoying to the customer that has just bought, but it isn't deceit.

        Originally Posted by Jim Phillips View Post

        ----

        What about the chat desk scripts that offer money off if you click here now? Is it being deceitful? Where's the live chat person? Or is it just another marketing technique to make the sale?-----
        Calling it a live chat might be a little deceitful. However, at least in the IM niche, most people understand that it isn't really live. Not quite ok though.
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        Oscar Toft

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      • Profile picture of the author mr2monster
        Originally Posted by Jim Phillips View Post

        Hi Jani,

        It all depends in their marketing plan.

        Are they using different techniques to create a buzz? Are they showing a preview of some techniques that have been used and tested that have proven to be valuable? Who knows what valuable content they might offer in their affiliate class.

        Personally I'd like to learn as many leading edge techniques as possible.

        Sometimes great ideas used properly can bring greater results.

        The sex industry online would use many advance marketing forms to draw consumers into their sites. Many of their ideas, used in scripts, were very valuable in building massive mailing lists.

        My thought is to learn and test. Adapt it to your marketing plans... if it proves valuable for you... use it.

        As far as salesletters. Think how many of those stories are actually fiction or non fiction. They draw a picture in your mind. Painting a pretty picture helps our minds see what we want and then take action.

        Girls in beer commercials.

        Sure do sell a lot of beer.

        How many drunks wake up in the morning with a beautiful girl next to them?

        Best Regards,

        Jim

        PS. Think of all the javascripts being used to show todays date. Even though the salesletter is 2 years old.

        Does it hurt or help the content?

        How about the exit popover that offers $20.00 dollars off if you purchase now. Is that a slap in the face to those who purchased first?

        What about the chat desk scripts that offer money off if you click here now? Is it being deceitful? Where's the live chat person? Or is it just another marketing technique to make the sale?



        I'm wondering how many of the people bitching about this being slimy, are using scripts to change the date to today's date...


        It's the same principle. Small lie to change perception of the end user to get a desired effect. Period. The End.
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        • Profile picture of the author AmyBrown
          Originally Posted by mr2monster View Post

          I'm wondering how many of the people bitching about this being slimy, are using scripts to change the date to today's date...


          It's the same principle. Small lie to change perception of the end user to get a desired effect. Period. The End.
          When do small lies become big lies? Am I to believe that you do represent a law firm as represented in your signature, or is that a small lie to change the perception of your loan mod site? This is the type of credibility issue that comes into play when you start with "small" lies.

          One good thing about these type of threads is that it eliminates potential jv partners and will save me on some WSOs
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          • Profile picture of the author ExRat
            Hi Mr2monster,

            I'm wondering how many of the people bitching about this being slimy, are using scripts to change the date to today's date...


            It's the same principle. Small lie to change perception of the end user to get a desired effect. Period. The End.
            It might be the same 'principle', depending on how you choose to define a principle - but regardless, it's still not the same thing. Hence your 'Period. End.' assertion is incorrect.

            Analogy -

            guy a) lies to his girlfriend that he has to visit his mother, in order that he can drink beer and watch football with his mates - he believes it will cause issues if he is honest.

            guy b) lies to his girlfriend that he has to visit his mother, in order that he can sleep with his girlfriend's best friend

            Same principle - he's lying and deceiving in order to not have to answer for his actions.

            Different kettle of fish entirely though - no period, no end.

            Hi Ray,

            I think I gave a hint when I said "on the other side of the coin".
            It's obvious I wasn't on the same side of the coin?
            I still don't see how that makes it relevant to this discussion?

            If scarcity wasn't such a strong motivation to buy then no one would complain of it's misuse.
            I also don't understand why you think that this is relevant, either. As has been mentioned above, some of us feel that by using such a sloppy and obvious tactic (in combination with all of the others who do similar), he is bringing the industry into disrepute and inviting the arrival of heavy-handed regulators.

            Regardless, just because something causes a strong motivation to buy, that in itself does not justify unethical practices or taking it to the extreme. There is a world of difference between professional persuasion and amateur deception - we know that you know this! Perhaps I've got the wrong end of the stick here, regarding your comments...
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            • Profile picture of the author mr2monster
              Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

              Hi Mr2monster,

              It might be the same 'principle', depending on how you choose to define a principle - but regardless, it's still not the same thing. Hence your 'Period. End.' assertion is incorrect.

              Analogy -

              guy a) lies to his girlfriend that he has to visit his mother, in order that he can drink beer and watch football with his mates - he believes it will cause issues if he is honest.

              guy b) lies to his girlfriend that he has to visit his mother, in order that he can sleep with his girlfriend's best friend

              Same principle - he's lying and deceiving in order to not have to answer for his actions.

              Different kettle of fish entirely though - no period, no end.

              What makes one lie "okay" and the other "not okay"?

              The fact of the matter is that they're lying to their girlfriends... That's the issue. Period. The End.

              What they do after that is null.

              Maybe guy A) goes and drinks with his buddies and then drives home drunk and kills a family of 4....

              Point being, they didn't want to just lay it out on the line no matter what it was that they were lying about.
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          • Profile picture of the author mr2monster
            Originally Posted by AmyBrown View Post

            When do small lies become big lies? Am I to believe that you do represent a law firm as represented in your signature, or is that a small lie to change the perception of your loan mod site? This is the type of credibility issue that comes into play when you start with "small" lies.

            One good thing about these type of threads is that it eliminates potential jv partners and will save me on some WSOs
            No, I actually work at a physical law firm... I'm a paralegal... sitting in a desk (almost) every day. Working for an actual attorney. I use that lead form to help streamline my workload since I'm in charge of the internet based leads for the company. (I reserve the right to change this position, as I'm thinking of quitting)


            To me, a lie is a lie. period. A script that changes the date on your page is a lie. A script that changes a number to make people think there are seats filling up fast is a lie. 90% of what's out there on the internet is a lie.. in fact, MOST of marketing in general could be construed as a "lie".

            Wal-Mart holding out PS3's in the back to create demand is a lie... Microsoft only making X number of X-Box 360's to drive the price through the roof is a lie..... or is it PERSPECTIVE?

            Whatever side of the coin you sit on is fine, but make sure you're not being a hypocrite. You can't be selective in your lies...

            Quote from one of my favorite musicals:

            A man's called a traitor,
            Or Liberator.
            A rich man's a theif!
            Or philanthropist.
            Is one a crusader?
            Or ruthless invader?
            It's all in which label is able to persist.
            There are precious few at ease with moral ambiguities.
            So we act as though they don't exist!
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            • Profile picture of the author Lance K
              Originally Posted by mr2monster View Post

              A script that changes the date on your page is a lie.
              Would it be more of a lie than if my web page said today's date was August, 17 when it's really the 18th?
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            • Profile picture of the author Lance K
              Originally Posted by mr2monster View Post

              No, I actually work at a physical law firm...
              As long as we're splitting hairs...

              But is it your law firm as your sig suggests?
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              • Profile picture of the author ExRat
                Hi Mr2monster,

                What makes one lie "okay" and the other "not okay"?

                The fact of the matter is that they're lying to their girlfriends... That's the issue. Period. The End.

                What they do after that is null.
                I never said one lie was OK and the other one wasn't. I said there was a difference. You are saying that there isn't a difference.
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              • Profile picture of the author mr2monster
                Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

                As long as we're splitting hairs...

                But is it your law firm as your sig suggests?
                touche

                haha.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steve Snively
            Originally Posted by AmyBrown View Post

            When do small lies become big lies?
            Apparent from reading the thread that there different standards for how far to go to tell a good story.

            The scarcity tactic is proven for effectiveness, People using similar dynamic countdowns have found them effective.

            God help us all if he is getting customers who actually believe the timer...

            Assuming they have tested, and they would not be practicing what they preach if they haven't; then the marketplace has voted a willingness to sacrifice trust for scarcity.

            Personally I would probably click away unless sucked in by cleaver technology. But I don't matter other than in choosing how to conduct my own business. As long as conversions are better, tactics like this will be deployed.
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        • Profile picture of the author Lance K
          Originally Posted by mr2monster View Post

          I'm wondering how many of the people bitching about this being slimy, are using scripts to change the date to today's date...


          It's the same principle. Small lie to change perception of the end user to get a desired effect. Period. The End.

          Why? Is it not really today?
          Signature
          "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
          ~ Zig Ziglar
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          • Profile picture of the author MacFreddie
            Banned
            I attended a TELE-seminar last week and had the same thing happen.

            I called in ONE minute before it started and the Automated voice message said "you are the 6th caller" duh!

            The moderator a WF member stated in the first minute of the call that he had OVER 200 people on the call. I hung up, called back and now the message said "you are the 9th caller on the line." I know the company he was using and he is only allowed 100 callers.

            I knew he was lying so I hung up and Unsubscribed from his list.

            I then attended another meeting by another WF member last night. He used gotoMeeting vs gotoWebinar. When I logged in it clearly showed all the Users on the line, about 10. This Bozo then went on to say he had 150 people on the call, duh. Hey Idiot, an experienced IMer like myself knows that gotomeeting ONLY supports up to 15, thats right Fifteen callers.

            Please don't insult my intelligence by playing these games.

            BTW, Anik Singal is really good. I highly recommend him. It's too bad he played this game. Maybe he will post a reply.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            This is ILLEGAL in the US! The FTC has SPECIFIC rules against limited TIME and RESOURCES! If someone found you were lying, and told the FTC, they could SHUT YOU DOWN, FINE YOU, SUE YOU, and FORCE YOU TO REFUND EVERYONE! THEN, to add insult to injury, they can leave the case docket up for the next decade to embarass you.

            Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author davezan
              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              This is ILLEGAL in the US! The FTC has SPECIFIC rules against limited TIME and RESOURCES! If someone found you were lying, and told the FTC, they could SHUT YOU DOWN, FINE YOU, SUE YOU, and FORCE YOU TO REFUND EVERYONE! THEN, to add insult to injury, they can leave the case docket up for the next decade to embarass you.
              I was rather thinking along the same lines. If the FTC really believes this is a
              scam to go after, coupled with Anik's site seemingly within U.S. soil (in MD, I
              think), then they just might.

              BTW, has anyone brought this to Anik's personal attention? He might want to
              address this himself sooner, rather than wait for possibly higher authorities to
              do that for him.
              Signature

              David

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            • Profile picture of the author psresearch
              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              This is ILLEGAL in the US! The FTC has SPECIFIC rules against limited TIME and RESOURCES! If someone found you were lying, and told the FTC, they could SHUT YOU DOWN, FINE YOU, SUE YOU, and FORCE YOU TO REFUND EVERYONE! THEN, to add insult to injury, they can leave the case docket up for the next decade to embarass you.

              Steve
              Disclaimer: I'm not an attorney and this isn't legal advice...

              Steve, as far as I understand these matters, what you say isn't strictly true at all. There are a lot of factors that go into what the FTC decides to pursue or not pursue. The best place to start to see the initial framework they likely start from when analyzing whether something is deceptive enough to warrant any consideration is probably their FTC policy statement on deception.

              Since the FTC looks at the entire sales process and not just one part I would doubt that any conclusion like this could be determined based on just one piece.

              My GUESS is they would look at other factors such as "how easy is it to cancel" after taking the $1 trial, how clearly are the terms disclosed regarding what happens after the trial period, what qualifies as "detriment to the consumer" in this case, etc.

              So regarding the negative option part, the FTC has stated that there are five key principles they look at:

              - Disclosing material terms in an understandable manner, without making them unnecessarily long or inconsistent;
              - Making the disclosures clear and conspicuous by placing them where consumers are likely to look on Web pages, by labeling disclosures (and links to them) to indicate their importance and relevance, and by using easy-to-read fonts and colors;
              - Disclosing the offer's material terms before the consumer incurs a financial obligation;
              - Obtaining consumers' affirmative consent to the offer by, for example, having them click "I Agree" and without relying on pre-checked boxes; and
              - Not impeding the effective operation of promised cancellation procedures and honoring cancellation requests that comply with such procedures.

              Certainly I would think that a scarcity ploy used to drive someone into a negative option contract could become a significant factor - the TX AG included points to that effect in their initial complaint against Infusion Media, the company behind the Google Money Tree product.

              However, because Anik's memberships have typically made cancellation extremely easy an obvious and because the initial trial is $1.00 I would suspect that would factor in heavily.

              Again, I am NOT an attorney.

              Just as an aside, as I was writing this post, I remembered this document which
              has some very interesting information about research that was done into the
              mindset of a consumer during an online transaction vs an offline transaction:
              www.ftc.gov/os/2009/02/P064202negativeoptionreport.pdf
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              • Profile picture of the author David@Lurn
                Hey Everyone,

                I am Lurn Inc.'s Jv & Affiliate Manager. I was alerted to this thread
                today and brought this issue to Anik's attention.

                This counter was supposed to be a central counter which accurately
                counted down our remaining seats available.

                However, our tech team misunderstood our position and interpreted this
                as a marketing move and made it cookie-based.

                As many of you know, large launches rarely go as planned. There is a lot
                going on behind the scenes and unfortunately some things get overlooked.
                But we believe it is how you act on those mistakes - and this is why we
                are addressing this issue here and letting you know that we will fix this
                error and make sure it does not happen again.

                We apologize for any confusion regarding this issue. As mentioned in this
                thread already - anyone that has met Anik and worked with our team knows
                that we do not use dishonest tactics by any means.

                Our record speaks for itself:

                Just last week we were inducted into Inc. Magazine's top 500 growing companies
                and we ranked #2 in the field of education:

                Lurn -- Education

                Earlier this year we won the Maryland Incubator Company of the Year Award -
                which awards companies based on their success and growth

                Lurn Wins Maryland Incubator Company of the Year Award

                Last Fall, Anik was named one of Businessweek's Top 25 Entrepreneurs under 25 (He came in second)

                Affiliate Classroom - BusinessWeek

                No company in the WORLD would be able to have these achievements if they weren't respected
                and enjoyed by their customers and peers.

                We have had over 51,000 customers and we go above and beyond to make sure they are happy.

                Thank You for bringing this issue to our attention and allowing us to address it.

                -David
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                • Profile picture of the author ExRat
                  Hi David,

                  That's interesting.

                  So presumeably, bearing this in mind -

                  anyone that has met Anik and worked with our team knows
                  that we do not use dishonest tactics by any means
                  ...somehow, your tech team is not entirely in sync with the overall company philosophy?

                  This counter was supposed to be a central counter which accurately counted down our remaining seats available.

                  However, our tech team misunderstood our position and interpreted this
                  as a marketing move and made it cookie-based.
                  Also, did no-one outside of the tech team examine the finished article once it went live in order to 'proof-read' for any errors?
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                  • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
                    Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

                    That's interesting.
                    So presumeably, bearing this in mind -

                    ...somehow, your tech team is not entirely in sync with the overall company philosophy?

                    Also, did no-one outside of the tech team examine the finished article once it went live in order to 'proof-read' for any errors?
                    If this truly was a mistake in communication, it was also a mistake in follow-up, a mistake in testing, and a mistake in QC.

                    It seems like a company sporting the credentials the poster reported would have a more detailed project workflow in place. They may need to develop a more detailed PMO process that includes more UAT and improved QC.

                    As their team is meeting with one another and Anik for their scheduled post-implementation "Lessons Learned" session, I'd suggest developing a detailed checklist. That would reduce the chances of things getting "overlooked" (which, based on the poster's comments, appears at least in this case to be a problem for them).

                    Most people don't plan to fail, they fail to plan.

                    I would imagine on the back of this that the developer owes Anik a refund of some sort, because it may have had a negative impact on his reputation. That is, of course, assuming that this new information isn't simply spin and damage control.
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                    • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                      Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly View Post

                      ... That is, of course, assuming that this new information isn't simply spin and damage control.

                      This.


                      And it's not a very good effort either. I cannot understand why companies deny, throw all sorts of justification here and there about "well we're this or we're that..."

                      Amateur PR at best.

                      In this day and age of transparency, admit that you screwed up. Take ownership of your situation. You cannot control what others are saying, so the best you can do is simply present yourself as being forthright and willing to take responsibility. Accept your lumps and go on. Recreate yourself with a positive PR effort after the fact.

                      Michael Vick? Hello?

                      Hell... William Jefferson "I did not have sex with that woman" Clinton.

                      Quit digging your hole deeper.

                      People are amazingly forgiving of those who just fess up and fix the problem.

                      A true leader takes responsibility for the wrongdoings of his suboordinates when they do wrong, and then gives his suboordinates all the credit when things are successful. Holding out the developer as the bad guy this or that simply makes one look like an incompetent idiot that is ready to hang their resources out to dry when the chips are down. If you're in charge of your organization, then you'd better BE in charge of your organization 100% of the time.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                      At one time or another, we all make mistakes.

                      That's why I (and others) have been saying that we should keep the discussion to the tactic and leave specific individuals/companies out of it.
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                      "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
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                      • Profile picture of the author psresearch
                        Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

                        At one time or another, we all make mistakes.

                        That's why I (and others) have been saying that we should keep the discussion to the tactic and leave specific individuals/companies out of it.
                        I agree that we should be focusing on what principles can be extracted from this experience, such as:

                        - What is the true meaning of "accountability" for a leader and WHY is that important?
                        - What is the proper way to handle damage control at the speed of the web?
                        - When does a sales tactic cross the line.
                        - How do you plan a launch to minimize the need for even accidental damage control?
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                        • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                          Originally Posted by markquinn View Post

                          I agree that we should be focusing on what principles can be extracted from this experience, such as:

                          - What is the true meaning of "accountability" for a leader and WHY is that important?
                          - What is the proper way to handle damage control at the speed of the web?
                          - When does a sales tactic cross the line.
                          - How do you plan a launch to minimize the need for even accidental damage control?

                          That sounds like the makings for a new thread to me.

                          I believe this one was intended to discuss the tactic of fake countdown scripts.
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                          • Profile picture of the author psresearch
                            Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

                            That sounds like the makings for a new thread to me.

                            I believe this one was intended to discuss the tactic of fake countdown scripts.
                            I've been thinking about this and trying to come up with some good questions to
                            help put constraints on the conversation. I'll give it a whirl:

                            1. If you use a REAL countdown, how can you prove that the countdown is real?
                            Related: Can you prove that it's real "in the moment"? or can you only "train lists/customers" to believe it's real over time?

                            2. Is there a way to use a countdown CONTINUOUSLY over time in a legitimate way?
                            i.e. Only the next 1000 people will get "bonus a"...and once that countdown is done...
                            Only the next 1000 people will get "bonus b".

                            Any other ideas?
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                      • Profile picture of the author JohnDow
                        By the way, does anybody know where to find the lazy tubester webinar replay.
                        Or at least what it is about?

                        John
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                        • Profile picture of the author psresearch
                          Originally Posted by JohnDow View Post

                          By the way, does anybody know where to find the lazy tubester webinar replay.
                          Or at least what it is about?

                          John
                          Did you take the $1 trial of AffiliateClassroom? I believe you'd have had to
                          taken the $1 trial to get it.
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          • Profile picture of the author Jay Truman
            Originally Posted by Steve Snively View Post

            God help us all if he is getting customers who actually believe the timer...
            i know this is an international board, but...

            "You'll never go broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public." pt
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            • Profile picture of the author psresearch
              Interesting. I posted about this a few days ago and my comment
              was deleted, although since it was in the product review section
              it didn't really fit so it made sense to me why it was deleted.

              I will say that I was on the lazy tubester seminar and Anik DID deliver
              the entire strategy - no detail was left out at all.

              And there are so many other things Anik does right with memberships
              in my opinion - like giving people an easy way to cancel and making
              the terms exceedingly obvious.

              However, I think what's more interesting is looking at the interplay
              of reputation management and marketing tactics these days.
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              • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
                Originally Posted by markquinn View Post


                I will say that I was on the lazy tubester seminar and Anik DID deliver
                the entire strategy - no detail was left out at all.

                .
                Correct, of course he did, these guys even have their own launch product, they know to the last detail what elements they want included on a sales page '/ funnel.

                But hey I'm hallucinating so I'll bow out and let the myopia continue unabated.
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                • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
                  Originally Posted by SimonHarrison View Post

                  But hey I'm hallucinating so I'll bow out and let the myopia continue unabated.
                  Sigh........

                  It's funny how you adopted a position that you can't move from when it's based entirely on assumptions, and the fact that not everyone wants to jump to such conclusions creates a real problem for you.

                  You even said that you don't actually care much about the issue at hand, but are pushing back against the fact that you think I believe the person involved doesn't know it's happening - which is not what I said anyway. I have ZERO idea what Anik knows or doesn't know and I haven't claimed otherwise.

                  All I said was - we don't know the facts and making assumptions might be doing someone less credit than they deserve.

                  In this world we usually see what's inside us. We recognize outside of use that which is in us. If we're immoral then immorality is what we see.

                  You seem to bee seeing naivety and myopia - so I would ask you to consider why.

                  Andy
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                  nothing to see here.

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            • Profile picture of the author 2Quick
              Well of course you have an Excuse!

              Does not work for me!

              And bringing up all these accolades is rediculous, bigtime!

              Your successes have nothing to do with this issue, since we are speaking out about dishonesty here, not whether or not what you teach or sell is Good Stuff or not.

              This tactic is used all the time by your kind, and you knew exactly what was going on here, you kidding me?

              Jeff
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          • Profile picture of the author Paxton
            Which is why I have much better results promoting physical products over Ebooks, where artificial scarcity and price games don't figure.

            I suppose I should if I want to join the "elite", but I just can't bring myself to use stuff like this. I don't like being treated like that when a customer, so there is no way I would treat my customers that way.

            In the long run, if you're interested in building a long-term sustainable business - avoid tactics like this.

            I get a lot of repeat business in my markets and I get a lot of referrals from satisfied customers. I've had emails from people telling me how many of their friends they referred my sites to, so long-term results become that much better.

            Would my repeat / referral rates be as high as they are if I used false scarcity and similar tactics? I doubt it.

            I don't need to make any fast bucks so I don't use fast methods.

            Just my 2 1/2 cents.
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          • Profile picture of the author netkid
            Instead of using the "scarcity" model, why don't we just use the good old fashioned "earn the respect of people, one at a time," by example?

            Send out "good vibrations" of who we are, keep producing great content, "guide" people to where they want to go, and don't come across so "desparate." I think too many launches are using the "fast in-fast out" method so they can later boast that they made millions in one day online. These are the products that have no real "meat" in it anyways.

            Forget that nonsense and build your business one customer at a time. Yeah, I know it may be too slow for most, but if you come to think of it, there is no "get rich quick" magic bullet out there. For those who made millions in a day, I say they were mighty lucky.

            Regards,

            Bruce
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          • Profile picture of the author JohnDow
            I think all marketers should skip this kind of strategy. Everybody know it's fake, so what's the use. Take action... well I take action when I want to.
            If I like the product I'll buy it, if not I don't.
            Anybody see the webinar? Any good?
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          • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
            From the time I started learning about marketing, one big piece of the puzzle has always been to get people to buy now.

            I have read many material, viewed a lot of video, listened to a lot of audio and always everyone talks about scarcity and how to get people to buy now.

            And just about all of them manipulate things to make it appear as though there is only so much of a product left, or that a bonus will disappear if you do not buy now, or that if you wait past a certain date you won't get some deal.

            I suppose the launch model of only selling a certain number of an item is the only real type of scarcity around now.

            If there is an item I want to buy, but I am told there are only going to be 100 sold, that works on me. And usually, the item is off the market in a few days. So I can believe that scarcity tactic. Of course there is no way to see if the person sold only 100 or actually sold 200 etc.

            But, I bought the product because of the value of the product. The scarcity of limited amount of the product in the marketplace helped to get me to buy now, but if I like the product it is because of the value I got from it.

            If you don't buy a product because you disagree with the marketing tactics, use of scarcity, when you really could use the benefits in the product, you are spiting yourself just to try and "prove a point"

            Something like "Those phony marketing tactics won't work on me and I'll prove it by not buying this product" and that's fine.

            But there are many reasons some people won't buy from a particular person.

            If someone doesn't like John Smith, for whatever reason they just don't like him...

            His style offends them as does his language
            They think he is too care salesmen like
            They find his teaching style boring
            They think he is full of himself

            But for some reason Bob Jones just clicks with them and they buy his products.

            I don't think not liking "fake scarcity" is the main reason people are not buying a certain product.

            I buy products from people where I know there is false scarcity. Basically I just overlook it and even laugh at it. It's part of the game of marketing.

            Hey I bought the showtime rotisserie grill in the store. But the infomercial said there was only 20 minutes left.

            I think the "slap chop" looks really cool - but the guy selling it tells me I have to buy now because "you know we can't do this all day". It doesn't make me rush to buy it now. But I know the scarcity is fake and I still want the product.

            To those people not familiar with marketing, those tactics still work.

            But I think this product being talked about in this thread has a lot of info to teach people.

            You can find this "unethical, dishonesty, etc in so many things.

            Take politics. How some politicians won't give straight answers to a question because they are concerned it will hurt their poll numbers.

            Or "reality tv" which is so contrived there is nothing "real" about it.

            You could then say, I won't vote because all politicians are liars and then I won't watch "reality tv" because I know they are influencing reality and it's not really "unscripted" like they lead us to believe.

            There are more examples, but these are 2 which come to mind.
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        • Profile picture of the author JaniG
          Originally Posted by mr2monster View Post

          I'm wondering how many of the people bitching about this being slimy, are using scripts to change the date to today's date...


          It's the same principle. Small lie to change perception of the end user to get a desired effect. Period. The End.
          How is using a date script to show todays date the same as pretending there are only x amount of spots left?

          its totally different lol

          i use date scripts on some of my sales letters.

          But its the real date so its not like i am luying! lol
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          • Profile picture of the author Clark
            Originally Posted by teamfire View Post

            How is using a date script to show todays date the same as pretending there are only x amount of spots left?

            its totally different lol

            i use date scripts on some of my sales letters.

            But its the real date so its not like i am luying! lol
            It is a lie if you are giving the impression that you wrote the letter on said date when in fact, you did not.

            The date on business letters bears the proof of the date the letter was written.

            I checked the site in question as per the OP and for me, the seat counter starts at 981 then drops two seats to 979.... then I refreshed the page and it went back up to 981 then back down to 979.

            It's a similar tactic if your prospect who read your sales letter today and saw today's date, decides not to buy then goes back to your site tomorrow and sees a different date unless.... you are actually writing the letter each and every day then uploading it to your site = not bloodily likely especially when the copyright notice is dated a few years after electricity was invented

            I see through stuff like this so at this point, I've become immune to the emotional triggers and have become indifferent to these tactics except when I am the target and choose to buy... then I'll bounce 'cause it shows a lack of creativity on the marketer's part which, more than likely echoes loudly about the product content itself.

            Integrity matters to me... follow your own moral compass.
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            • Profile picture of the author ExRat
              Hi Clark,

              it shows a lack of creativity on the marketer's part
              Integrity matters to me
              Just out of curiosity, did you write your sig line, or Blair Warren, or someone else? Or are you Blair?
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            • Profile picture of the author MarkWrites
              Originally Posted by Clark View Post

              It is a lie if you are giving the impression that you wrote the letter on said date when in fact, you did not.

              The date on business letters bears the proof of the date the letter was written.

              I checked the site in question as per the OP and for me, the seat counter starts at 981 then drops two seats to 979.... then I refreshed the page and it went back up to 981 then back down to 979.

              It's a similar tactic if your prospect who read your sales letter today and saw today's date, decides not to buy then goes back to your site tomorrow and sees a different date unless.... you are actually writing the letter each and every day then uploading it to your site = not bloodily likely especially when the copyright notice is dated a few years after electricity was invented

              I see through stuff like this so at this point, I've become immune to the emotional triggers and have become indifferent to these tactics except when I am the target and choose to buy... then I'll bounce 'cause it shows a lack of creativity on the marketer's part which, more than likely echoes loudly about the product content itself.

              Integrity matters to me... follow your own moral compass.
              I personally have not used the date script myself, but wouldn't rule it out in the future. I don't think it is comparable to a fake scarcity tactic at all.

              The date on a sales letter, or any other piece of correspondence is not necessarily a timestamp of when the sales letter was written, but a timestamp as to when the communication is made. If the former were true, then for instance every time a credit company sent out either a stock past due notice or a pre-written notice for raising someone's credit limit, it would have to have the original date that the letter was written on it, possibly even years earlier. The date is meant for the moment that the communication with the customer is made, not as a way of logging when it was written.

              Online sales letters differ from printed ones, mainly because of how the delivery is made. If person A goes to person B's site and sees the letter, they are being communicated with on that day and there isn't anything wrong with it having that day's date on it. Should another person come tomorrow, the same principle is true.

              That being said, if there is other text around the current date script like "Get yours before anyone else" or "I discovered this new technique today" and the purpose is meant to change the significance of the date, then I would agree that it is misleading and possibly shady.
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      • Profile picture of the author JaniG
        Originally Posted by Jim Phillips View Post

        Hi Jani,

        It all depends in their marketing plan.

        Are they using different techniques to create a buzz? Are they showing a preview of some techniques that have been used and tested that have proven to be valuable? Who knows what valuable content they might offer in their affiliate class.

        Personally I'd like to learn as many leading edge techniques as possible.

        Sometimes great ideas used properly can bring greater results.

        The sex industry online would use many advance marketing forms to draw consumers into their sites. Many of their ideas, used in scripts, were very valuable in building massive mailing lists.

        My thought is to learn and test. Adapt it to your marketing plans... if it proves valuable for you... use it.

        As far as salesletters. Think how many of those stories are actually fiction or non fiction. They draw a picture in your mind. Painting a pretty picture helps our minds see what we want and then take action.

        Girls in beer commercials.

        Sure do sell a lot of beer.

        How many drunks wake up in the morning with a beautiful girl next to them?

        Best Regards,

        Jim

        PS. Think of all the javascripts being used to show todays date. Even though the salesletter is 2 years old.

        Does it hurt or help the content?

        How about the exit popover that offers $20.00 dollars off if you purchase now. Is that a slap in the face to those who purchased first?

        What about the chat desk scripts that offer money off if you click here now? Is it being deceitful? Where's the live chat person? Or is it just another marketing technique to make the sale?
        You made some good points there Jim...

        and yes even though he is luying about the number of seats remaining, i still think the content is good.

        Actually i have actually met Anik in person and hes a cool guy and he's company Lurn does teach very good stuff.
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  • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
    This is 100% flat out dishonest.

    Period.

    Someone who's prepared to LIE to you on the first page for
    a measly dollar offer cannot be trusted thereafter.

    I guess that some 'marketers' will do anything for a buck -
    literally.

    I don't give two hoots if it increases sales or pushes up
    response - short-term.

    What about the relationship with prospects and customers?

    What do these downright dishonest tactics do to your trust
    and credibility levels in the marketplace?

    Yes - I'm a marketer - but I also have standards and an internal
    code of ethics that I use before using particular marketing
    'strategies.'

    This is on my DO NOT USE list for me along with OTOs
    and other sleazy 'car salesman' tactics.

    The bottom line is not the only bottom line.

    Dedicated to your success,

    Shaun
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    .

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    • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
      Shaun OMG your post is the best reply I've read to anything in a long time. I am reading it to my customers in today's vlog. It is SO important that they see others believe in not using trickery to build a list or grab a buck.

      Thank you!!
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    • Profile picture of the author mayapearl
      Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post

      This is 100% flat out dishonest.

      Period.

      Someone who's prepared to LIE to you on the first page for
      a measly dollar offer cannot be trusted thereafter.

      I guess that some 'marketers' will do anything for a buck -
      literally.

      I don't give two hoots if it increases sales or pushes up
      response - short-term.

      What about the relationship with prospects and customers?

      What do these downright dishonest tactics do to your trust
      and credibility levels in the marketplace?

      Yes - I'm a marketer - but I also have standards and an internal
      code of ethics that I use before using particular marketing
      'strategies.'

      This is on my DO NOT USE list for me along with OTOs
      and other sleazy 'car salesman' tactics.

      The bottom line is not the only bottom line.

      Dedicated to your success,

      Shaun

      Hi Shaun,

      your response is just what I wish I could have said!
      I have seen many such offers and they just turn me off, let's stay honest, if your product is good people will buy it and come back.

      Thanks again Shaun
      Maya
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    • Profile picture of the author Lothar Evers
      Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post

      This is 100% flat out dishonest.

      Period.
      Someone who's prepared to LIE to you on the first page for
      a measly dollar offer cannot be trusted thereafter.
      Completely agree, and I do not want to learnfrom someone who lies at me first to pretend urgency.

      Maybe you sell more. But your relation is based on a lie....
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      • Profile picture of the author Ram
        Can't count the number of times I've made mistakes -- or just plain royally screwed up -- in my marketing career, online and offline.

        Bet I'll make some more before I'm done.

        Learned from them, though.

        This was no big deal. If that's the worst Anik ever does, then he's a saint. From his affiliate manager's explanation, it seems like it was nothing more than a misstep and has been corrected.

        Too many around here are quick to condemn and seem a bit holier than thou. Screw ups happen. Boneheaded moves happen. Being just plain wrong happens. Regrets happen. And if you spend any time in this biz you will experience all of the above. Deal. Learn. Move on.

        This was nothing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brad Gosse
    Only 654 Seats Left... better hurry LOL
    Signature
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Tunnah
      Originally Posted by Brad Gosse View Post

      Only 654 Seats Left... better hurry LOL
      You taken 653 seats for you and your hareem Brad?

      Rich
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      • Profile picture of the author Richard Tunnah
        Got to say I don't like these either. They're like offers I've seen which say they're never to be repeated.....only they mail you the same offer 6 months later!

        Rich
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  • Profile picture of the author EndGame
    I guess we could just sigh and say "I guess thats marketing" and I am sure there will be a number of people who come on the thread and say "hey man, instead of bitching, take action and try and learn from him etc etc" but it really doesn't sit well with me.

    If marketing is lying (and this is in my opinion) then I am sure I could be the best marketer in the World with more practice.

    I think I echo Shaun's sentiments when I say, if they are prepared to decieve at that early stage on the salespage, have they decieved me about other things? Are their claims true etc? I wouldn't buy from them based on that technique alone.

    All I say is just my opinion. And like buttholes, everyone has got one. But this really doesn't sit well with me and it's not something I would do and encourage. And if this industry were to be more regulated, I suspect this is something that wouldn't go down well either.
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    "Better a student of reality than a master of illusion"
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    I think it's pathetic...

    Nothing less than I would expect from that site though. I mean c'mon.. in an industry where we constantly dissect the marketing and strategy of our peers, how on Earth do these people think they will still pull tricks?...

    roflmao..

    If I had a more vested interest, it'd probably make me angry. As it stands I think it's just pathetically hilarious, I can get on with my thing.. safe in the knowledge that all is good in my funnel!

    Peace

    Jay
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  • Profile picture of the author MarkWrites
    This is actually a very good lesson for everyone. If you read through the responses here, many have made the comment that if I am being lied to on this first page, what else am I being lied to about and I completely agree.

    The personal application I see here is that I can do everything 100% correct and on the up and up in my business for years and years. But, if I try to take the easy road and be deceitful just once, it could do serious damage to everything I've built up.

    Ethical marketing is very important, but beyond that it should be plain to every serious business person out there that, even if you don't have a problem with the right vs. wrong aspect, it just doesn't make good business sense to be dishonest or deceitful.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeff Usher
    Wrong. I challenge you to find one legitimate marketing expert who would think that
    Lance,

    There are people out there now looking at and ripping the source code as we speak. We may not like it, we may not approve of it, but I can guarantee a few are doing it.

    Jeff
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Originally Posted by Jeff Usher View Post

      Lance,

      There are people out there now looking at and ripping the source code as we speak. We may not like it, we may not approve of it, but I can guarantee a few are doing it.

      Jeff
      Of course they are.

      But that doesn't make them a marketing expert.
      Signature
      "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
      ~ Zig Ziglar
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    I agree with the sentiment that it's blatantly a lie if a script is creating false scarcity under the disguise of a real limitation.

    However, I don't think Anik is a dishonest person and probably had someone set this up for him who just thought it was a cool thing to do.

    Anik's one of IMs real success stories. I remember when he was just a kid running around the forums posting about everything and wondering how to be successful.

    He now IS successful and is considered by many under the title Guru.

    So, although I'm not defending this particular strategy - I think a lot of beginners to IM could do much worse than learn from him.

    I met him last at a seminar and he's completely focused on his IM business and growing it. He's a professional guy and I'm sure he would be horrified to see such comments about him because of this script being used on one sales page. It does reflect badly, but don't dismiss him out of hand as he really is an example of a young guy making it in IM.

    Andy
    Signature

    nothing to see here.

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    • Profile picture of the author JazzOscar
      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

      -----

      However, I don't think Anik is a dishonest person and probably had someone set this up for him who just thought it was a cool thing to do.-----
      Yes, that's probably the case. However, when someone has economic success, he/she should also have the resources to employ someone to follow up on things like this, avoiding some of the pitfalls. You shouldn't just outsource things, losing your grip on the end product.

      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

      -----

      I met him last at a seminar and he's completely focused on his IM business and growing it. He's a professional guy and I'm sure he would be horrified to see such comments about him because of this script being used on one sales page. It does reflect badly, but don't dismiss him out of hand as he really is an example of a young guy making it in IM.-----
      I know there's much to learn from Anik when it comes to the tricks of the trade. I'm one of his earlier customers.

      However, when it comes to business systems, I feel he still has some way to go. I feel that, even if the products themselves may be very good, many of his launches are surrounded by to much unclearness, technical problems and lack of customer communication.
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    • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post


      However, I don't think Anik is a dishonest person and probably had someone set this up for him who just thought it was a cool thing to do.
      Andy
      Andy,

      I have to respectfully disagree with you. How can he outright lie and not be dishonest?

      Martin
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      • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
        Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

        Andy,

        I have to respectfully disagree with you. How can he outright lie and not be dishonest?

        Martin
        Hi Martin,

        I think the point that makes the difference is - I imagine he probably didn't create this page himself but had someone do it for him. He may not even know there's a fake counter on there.

        Since I don't KNOW - I'm not prepared to string him up for it.

        But I do understand why people would and they may be right, I've just seen so many honest mistakes made and people flamed for things that weren't the underhanded sleazy tactics that people assumed - Anik seems like a good guy so I'm inclined to play devils advocate and start from a position on the positive side of the fence.

        Andy
        Signature

        nothing to see here.

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        • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
          Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

          Hi Martin,

          I think the point that makes the difference is - I imagine he probably didn't create this page himself but had someone do it for him. He may not even know there's a fake counter on there.

          Since I don't KNOW - I'm not prepared to string him up for it.

          But I do understand why people would and they may be right, I've just seen so many honest mistakes made and people flamed for things that weren't the underhanded sleazy tactics that people assumed - Anik seems like a good guy so I'm inclined to play devils advocate and start from a position on the positive side of the fence.

          Andy
          Andy,

          I accept that people can make honest mistakes but surely if Anik outsourced the video he must have given the person very clear specs.
          He would be stupid to say "Make the video and put on it whatever you think will create urgency".

          Martin
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        • Profile picture of the author Jo_Shua
          My take on scarcity tactics is they better be legit. If you make a certain number of spots available, cut sales off. If you make a OTO available, make it offer ONLY once.

          Marketers that practice in FALSE scarcity tactics lose two things. Potential repeat customers, and new customers -- which equates to LOST earnings. Sure, they may make hundreds or thousands of sales on the product, but in the long run they LOSE out on more.

          Example, if a marketer holds true to his 50 spots only limitation... And, when it is shut down because all spots are taken, then PAYING customers will respect him and future POTENTIAL customers will respect him.

          This will lead to a fast sell-out of his future products that offer a limited amount of spots available... and a long list of DROOLING prospects wishing they had clicked faster causing them to be on the look out for your next email EAGER to click and buy BEFORE they read the entire sales letter...

          Why?

          Because they know you WILL shut down orders as soon as the spots are taken. (same goes for OTO)


          JC

          Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

          Hi Martin,

          I think the point that makes the difference is - I imagine he probably didn't create this page himself but had someone do it for him. He may not even know there's a fake counter on there.

          Since I don't KNOW - I'm not prepared to string him up for it.

          But I do understand why people would and they may be right, I've just seen so many honest mistakes made and people flamed for things that weren't the underhanded sleazy tactics that people assumed - Anik seems like a good guy so I'm inclined to play devils advocate and start from a position on the positive side of the fence.

          Andy
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          • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
            Originally Posted by Joshua Collins View Post

            My take on scarcity tactics is they better be legit. If you make a certain number of spots available, cut sales off. If you make a OTO available, make it offer ONLY once.

            Why?

            Because they know you WILL shut down orders as soon as the spots are taken. (same goes for OTO)


            JC
            I agree. Actually this is one particular thing that I'm strong on and I often have people complaining that I took away an offer which I said was limited.

            I don't use these scarcity tactics falsely, I'm just trying to give Anik the benefit of the doubt since I actually have no idea whether he made the sales page or outsourced etc..

            It's easy to string people up but no-one here knows whether Anik is even aware of how his page is done - we can all assume things and use those assumptions to make judgements about him - but there are only a few real elements of truth to the situation right now:

            1 - The page uses a script and most IMers will spot it and it's clearly deceptive. I don't think anyone has said otherwise here yet.

            2 - We know how the people who have responded feel about it (we're all pissed off by it)

            Everything else is speculation.

            We can assume that since Anik has made money (this is definitely true) that he would have decent management systems in place and even if he didn't create this page - he would know what went on.

            But we don't know that.

            Many IMers are inherently lazy (I know I am) and just because they're making money, this doesn't mean they're building their business in an ideal way and putting high quality systems in place.

            In fact, most IMers want to make hands-off money and are always talking about how much they outsource, so I think it's reasonable to assume that someone in Aniks position might have a guy (or team) that creates the sales pages.

            Isn't that what most people want to do? have someone they rely on to do such things?

            Obviously in this case the result was not ideal, but we don't actually know how involved Anik personally was, so while I agree with peoples annoyance at the strategy - I have ZERO evidence to indicate that Anik purposely put that script there.

            And since that's the case, I can't bring myself to slander his name.

            Maybe I'm just naive or something, but it's easy to take pot shots at people when they screw up but even easier if they're not around to defend themselves.

            I saw this page and felt the same as everyone else - but I wouldn't have come here to bitch about him, I just sent someone who knows him better than me a message asking them to inform him about it.

            Threads like this that trash someone don't really serve any position purpose and help foster the image many people have that IMers are all lying *******s who are out to rip them off.

            /rant

            Andy
            Signature

            nothing to see here.

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            • Profile picture of the author Lance K
              Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

              I saw this page and felt the same as everyone else - but I wouldn't have come here to bitch about him, I just sent someone who knows him better than me a message asking them to inform him about it.

              Threads like this that trash someone don't really serve any position purpose and help foster the image many people have that IMers are all lying *******s who are out to rip them off.

              /rant

              Andy


              I agree on this point, Andy. We could have a great discussion about the tactic without bringing anyone in particular into it.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
          Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

          Hi Martin,

          I think the point that makes the difference is - I imagine he probably didn't create this page himself but had someone do it for him. He may not even know there's a fake counter on there.

          Since I don't KNOW - I'm not prepared to string him up for it.

          But I do understand why people would and they may be right, I've just seen so many honest mistakes made and people flamed for things that weren't the underhanded sleazy tactics that people assumed - Anik seems like a good guy so I'm inclined to play devils advocate and start from a position on the positive side of the fence.

          Andy
          While I see where you are coming from here in your attempt to be generous, I must state that it is completely the business owner's responsibility to ensure that everything -- EVERYTHING -- put out under their trade name is legitimate, legal, and above board.

          Whether it was personally reviewed or not is irrelevant. Therefore it is either approved and dishonest, or unapproved and careless. Either way, unacceptable IMO.
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          • Profile picture of the author mayapearl
            Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly View Post

            While I see where you are coming from here in your attempt to be generous, I must state that it is completely the business owner's responsibility to ensure that everything -- EVERYTHING -- put out under their trade name is legitimate, legal, and above board.

            Whether it was personally reviewed or not is irrelevant. Therefore it is either approved and dishonest, or unapproved and careless. Either way, unacceptable IMO.
            Absolutely, as any business owner should know, if you lie about your product, YOU are ultimately responsible and will be perceived as the shoddy salesman. It may be a little lie, but it still gives a false impression. We can see this in politics, many "small lies" can lead to wars when those same little lies become big giant ones.

            Maya
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        • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

          Hi Martin,

          I think the point that makes the difference is - I imagine he probably didn't create this page himself but had someone do it for him. He may not even know there's a fake counter on there.

          Since I don't KNOW - I'm not prepared to string him up for it.

          But I do understand why people would and they may be right, I've just seen so many honest mistakes made and people flamed for things that weren't the underhanded sleazy tactics that people assumed - Anik seems like a good guy so I'm inclined to play devils advocate and start from a position on the positive side of the fence.

          Andy
          And now you've just given him an out. How long will it be now before we hear Anik say it wasn't his fault, it was the outsourcer's fault, lol.

          The guy is most likely blatantly lying, yet you have to use your imagination to lay blame anywhere else except for where it most likely belongs. It's really sad.

          Using a fake counter like that is dishonest, but if you've never pulled a boneheaded move (on purpose or by accident) then you probably haven't ever accomplished anything, either, because stuff happens.
          I've made plenty of boneheaded moves, but I can honestly say I have never lied by accident.
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          • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
            Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

            I've made plenty of boneheaded moves, but I can honestly say I have never lied by accident.
            Unless you've forgotten something, in which case you just did!
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  • Profile picture of the author crissanteiro
    I never pay attention to that. I just know they are lying. It is just a scarcity marketing tactic. Dishonest, yes, but I think lots of marketers use it. Just beware, there is probably no scarcity, and they are dying for you to buy their product!
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  • Profile picture of the author MizzCindy
    Looks slimy to me. He may have the most cutting-edge, valuable information available, but if I can't trust him I won't willingly give him my money. Tactics like this build distrust and create hesitation.

    If he has become successful by selling to other marketers...and wishes to continue doing so...he should zealously guard his reputation and not use deceit as a marketing tool.

    I'm all for exploiting every advantage, but there's a difference between doing that and being outright misleading.

    Cindy
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    I certainly don't subscribe to FALSE SCARCITY tactics to
    get people to buy ... BUT

    On the other side of the coin, if you bought from me ONLY
    because you thought it was the only one left am I to blame?

    Should the main reason to get any product be the limited availability?

    So you bought a "limited" product and found out that there is really more
    available, does this reduce the value of the product for you?

    -Ray Edwards
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    • Profile picture of the author MizzCindy
      For me, yes, it would reduce my perception of the product's value. Even more importantly, it would reduce my perception of value as it relates to every other product you (general you) currently offer or develop in the future.

      Trick me once, shame on you. Trick me twice, shame on me.

      Cindy

      Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

      I certainly don't subscribe to FALSE SCARCITY tactics to
      get people to buy ... BUT

      On the other side of the coin, if you bought from me ONLY
      because you thought it was the only one left am I to blame?

      Should the main reason to get any product be the limited availability?

      So you bought a "limited" product and found out that there is really more
      available, does this reduce the value of the product for you?


      -Ray Edwards
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    • Profile picture of the author AmyBrown
      Originally Posted by Raydal View Post


      So you bought a "limited" product and found out that there is really more
      available, does this reduce the value of the product for you?

      -Ray Edwards
      It does. The fact that I was lied to in the sales process affects my ability to trust the information contained in the product. If a marketer is willing to cross the line for the sale then I don't know what other liberties they've taken in terms of the method they're teaching.
      Signature
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    • Profile picture of the author abo28
      Originally Posted by Raydal View Post


      Should the main reason to get any product be the limited availability?

      -Ray Edwards
      Good point.

      The main quesstions one should ask when buying a product is: "do I really need it? is it a good aquisition for me? is it a quality product?"

      The scarcity issue is a bit false, I think. In a normal economy, what is available today will be available tomorrow too... in one form or another.
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  • Profile picture of the author James Schramko
    It is total bull****.

    And the shame is that people a) do it and b) fall for it ....

    amazing.
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi,

      Amateurish and scuzzy. What a sleaze.

      Hi Jim,

      Personally I'd like to learn as many leading edge techniques as possible.
      Nothing to see here....move along!

      Hi Ray,

      On the other side of the coin, if you bought from me ONLY
      because you thought it was the only one left am I to blame?

      Should the main reason to get any product be the limited availability?
      That's totally irrelevant. I doubt that anyone would buy ONLY because of the fake scarcity. It's more likely that there would be many reasons for them to buy, and the scarcity would be one of them - hence they would be deceived.
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      • Profile picture of the author yourreviewer
        This tactic is just as dishonest as IMers writing false reviews on products they don't know, haven't used and don't even care. As many Fat Loss 4 Idiots reviews you may have, you know how many among them are genuine.
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      • Profile picture of the author Raydal
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi Ray,

        That's totally irrelevant. I doubt that anyone would buy ONLY because of the fake scarcity. It's more likely that there would be many reasons for them to buy, and the scarcity would be one of them - hence they would be deceived.
        I think I gave a hint when I said "on the other side of the coin".
        It's obvious I wasn't on the same side of the coin?

        If scarcity wasn't such a strong motivation to buy then no one would
        complain of it's misuse.

        -Ray Edwards
        Signature
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
    This is an ABSOLUTELY GREAT METHOD to kill your credibility with a potential buyer.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kelly Verge
    This isn't just manufactured scarcity, it's also manufactured social proof.

    If it were just a scarcity issue, it would be no different than the fake countdown timer or the "this is the ONLY TIME you'll ever see this offer" pages.

    The moving bar/number says, "look at all the other people who are buying." That's really why it feels more dishonest.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jim Phillips
      Dishonesty is dishonesty in the eye of the beholder. I'm very conservative. But I know some people who think morals are without consequence.

      If I'm not a collector in collectables the scarcity of an item shouldn't add to the equation if I'm thinking about buying something.

      As real as, "This special price will increase soon." Yet it is still there a year later.

      "We only have 4 more left... Hurry buy now!"

      Whatever happened to the slogan? "Buyer beware."

      If the product is a piece of doo doo then you get a refund. No harm done.

      I've seen so many different marketing techniques over the years maybe I've become numb.

      Just my thoughts. As far as on my scale of social injustice. A screwed up count script (being used as a CTA) is very low on the totem pole than is "intentionally misrepresenting a product".

      Best Regards,

      Jim
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      "Life is like a merry-go-round. What goes around, comes around."

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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Jim Phillips View Post

        Dishonesty is dishonesty in the eye of the beholder. I'm very conservative. But I know some people who think morals are without consequence.
        There is a level of dishonesty that is just FACT, and NOT subjective!

        Originally Posted by Jim Phillips View Post

        If I'm not a collector in collectables the scarcity of an item shouldn't add to the equation if I'm thinking about buying something.
        If you buy from one considering it an investment, or that cherishes it, or with competition, scarcity WILL likely increase the cost!

        Originally Posted by Jim Phillips View Post

        As real as, "This special price will increase soon." Yet it is still there a year later.
        ILLEGAL in the US per the FTC!

        Originally Posted by Jim Phillips View Post

        "We only have 4 more left... Hurry buy now!"
        In the US, the FTC says there better only be 4 left!

        Originally Posted by Jim Phillips View Post

        Whatever happened to the slogan? "Buyer beware."
        That is from an old latin phrase, caveat emptor. It was NEVER a legal theory in the US!

        Originally Posted by Jim Phillips View Post

        I've seen so many different marketing techniques over the years maybe I've become numb.
        What you mentioned aren't marketing techniques, they're SCAMS!

        Originally Posted by Jim Phillips View Post

        Just my thoughts. As far as on my scale of social injustice. A screwed up count script (being used as a CTA) is very low on the totem pole than is "intentionally misrepresenting a product".
        That wasn't an accident, it was INTENTIONAL!
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
          Seasoned,

          I loved your post, but...

          The world doesn't begin and end in the US, and the FTC has no jurisdiction outside of it.

          Why not bring the MPAA or RIAA into the debate?

          Nothing to do with the OP, but who cares about the legality...really?

          It's a bloody squeeze page, not serial homicide.

          Steve

          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          There is a level of dishonesty that is just FACT, and NOT subjective!



          If you buy from one considering it an investment, or that cherishes it, or with competition, scarcity WILL likely increase the cost!



          ILLEGAL in the US per the FTC!



          In the US, the FTC says there better only be 4 left!



          That is from an old latin phrase, caveat emptor. It was NEVER a legal theory in the US!



          What you mentioned aren't marketing techniques, they're SCAMS!



          That wasn't an accident, it was INTENTIONAL!
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  • Profile picture of the author JoshuaWriter
    I cant stand when marketers do things like this.

    Scripts like those order countdown timers are a big LIE and marketers need to learn that they can still make money without using cheap tactics like that. And if they cant, they need to find another job becuase lying to your visitors is NOT the way to go.

    Remember, you can ALWAYS convert visitors in buyers without using cheap tactics like this, you need to test and keep trying different things but don't become another guru who is only concerned about the money and not about his visitors and customers.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
    It depends on whether or not you want to find a one-time "buyer" or build a relationship with a "loyal customer".
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  • Profile picture of the author InternetM39482
    I'd never lie to someone I'd like to do business with.

    This thing is downright dishonest. It's a shame that some 'marketers' have to resort to such tactics.
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  • Profile picture of the author rego
    Hello

    This situation reminds me when I was looking for an appartment to buy... I looked for a lot of appartments and most of the agents told me that they had a lot of people interested and that they were going to sell the appartment to the first person who shows up with the entrance fee.

    Well, one year later most of the appartments hadn't been sold.

    So, from my point of view, we have to look at this just as a marketing strategy which main goal is to "force" people to make a decision. And this way, the marketer will get 1 of 4 things:

    1 - people will get the product/program because they like it
    2 - people will get the product/program because it's better to keep it than lose a fantastic opportunity
    3 - people will not get the program, because they don't want to
    4 - people will not get the program at that time, but they will lose their sleep thinking about the fantastic opportunity they might have lost... and most of them will run to buy the product!

    If we look at this as a lie or unethical, almost everything that surround us probably is also.

    People always have the option to choose!
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by rego View Post

      Hello

      This situation reminds me when I was looking for an appartment to buy... I looked for a lot of appartments and most of the agents told me that they had a lot of people interested and that they were going to sell the appartment to the first person who shows up with the entrance fee.

      Well, one year later most of the appartments hadn't been sold.

      MAYBE they were just IDIOTS! SOME jerks figure that if someone comes by, and looks, they are interested! WRONG! They are POTENTIALLY interested. They may THEN have told EVERYONE what they told YOU, and maybe the potential disappeared with the fee. So maybe they THOUGHT they had interest when they didn't. Maybe they WOULD have sold to the first person with the fee. Maybe that person just NEVER came by!
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      • Profile picture of the author SpankD
        Scarcity is a valid tactic. How you employ it is a user choice. Crying about it just shows how weak you are. If you fell for it then kudos to the marketer. If you didn't then thats that.
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        • Profile picture of the author JazzOscar
          Originally Posted by SpankD View Post

          Scarcity is a valid tactic. How you employ it is a user choice. Crying about it just shows how weak you are. If you fell for it then kudos to the marketer. If you didn't then thats that.
          Scarcity is ok with me when done in an ethical way. Operating with a false number of seats/positions/products left is deceitful.

          Your "Crying about..." comment is misplaced in this thread. This is not one of the ordinary whiners threads. It's a thread discussing marketing ethics and the lack of the same.

          I don't think standing up for marketing ethics is a sign of weakness, neither do I think there is any reason for a kudos to marketers employing deceitful marketing tactics.

          A comment like yours is the type of comment that tends to add new people to my list of who not to do business with in the future. I suspect other posters in this thread has lists like that too.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Thompson
    It is a 100% flat out lie. I have no time for people who do this. On my own sales page I suggest that I might be raising the price, and it's true. I'm considering this as a testing option. I also present a free listen to a couple of tracks in my course and present a one-time-offer discount. It's a real discount and a real Javascript timer that removes the sale when the timer is done. It can probably be circumvented easily, but it is intended as REAL.

    I'm not impressed with what this guy is doing. 100% not true = a big lie.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
      Originally Posted by Chris Thompson View Post

      It is a 100% flat out lie. I have no time for people who do this. On my own sales page I suggest that I might be raising the price, and it's true.
      One thing I figured out early on in this game is that I couldn't stomach posting sales lies like: "Hurry, I'm only offering this price for [insert today()+24hours]!"

      Instead, if I know that I intend to modify the price of something in the future, I will likely insert something like:

      "Hurry, I don't know exactly how much longer I will continue to offer this amazing product at this incredible price!"

      Truthful, and still provides some sense of urgency.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    I would never do this.

    I don't care how much more money it would make me. I simply don't want the money that much.

    I shouldn't need to lie to my customers. Ever.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alton Hargrave
    Maybe it means that someone went to town and bought more chairs for the "guests" to sit in. LOL
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  • Profile picture of the author Jim Phillips
    Hi Seasoned,

    Glad to get your seasoned advice.

    Would you mind stating some sections in the law that back up your legal opinions? There are so many illegal scams on the internet masquerading as marketing techniques.

    Maybe it is time we start calling a spade a spade no matter who it is that is using these totally illegal scams. I'm sure the FTC would like to know.

    I remember back before bulk email was illegal. Their were so many marketers using that marketing technique. It took some really dedicated folks to clean up that mess. It's good to see my email inbox clean as a whistle.

    It would be great to be able to help clean up the many illegal scams going on all about us now.

    Buyers beware. If it is to good to be true it most likely isn't true. No these terms aren't grounded in law. Just plain old common sense.

    Thanks for your assistance.

    Best Regards,

    Jim
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Jim Phillips View Post

      Hi Seasoned,

      Glad to get your seasoned advice.

      Would you mind stating some sections in the law that back up your legal opinions? There are so many illegal scams on the internet masquerading as marketing techniques.

      Maybe it is time we start calling a spade a spade no matter who it is that is using these totally illegal scams. I'm sure the FTC would like to know.

      I remember back before bulk email was illegal. Their were so many marketers using that marketing technique. It took some really dedicated folks to clean up that mess. It's good to see my email inbox clean as a whistle.

      It would be great to be able to help clean up the many illegal scams going on all about us now.

      Buyers beware. If it is to good to be true it most likely isn't true. No these terms aren't grounded in law. Just plain old common sense.

      Thanks for your assistance.

      Best Regards,

      Jim
      They aren't "legal opinions"...

      Advertising and Marketing on the Internet: Rules of the Road

      Although this merely hints at scarcity being illegal, so many things discuss it, that I won't bother to come up with an authoritative item to show that specifically, though I have seen such things. Here is an index to a lot of rules that include many discussed on this system:

      Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:

      I don't know why they don't simply allow an easy document I could scan in seconds.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author GuerrillaIM
    Has anyone seen message at top of forum? Will participating in this thread be grounds for a ban? Would be nice to get a little clarification on whats allowed and whats not from the mods.
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  • Profile picture of the author Spencer Haws
    This discussion makes me laugh! Because there are literally hundreds of these scripts and "scarcity" tactics used today. I have never personally used anything like this.

    Isn't creating a manufactured discount the same thing??? You say your product was $197, but now its only $47? C'mon you were never going to and never WILL sell it for $197!

    Anyway, it just makes me laugh, because I can guarantee that if you click on some signatures here in the Warrior forum you will pretty quickly find some similar tactics.

    I guess Anik has to just take the hit for it since he is so huge. His company is in BusinessWeek for Top 500 fastest growing companies. Anyway, I doubt anyone contributing to this discussion uses these tactics, but MANY marketers do.
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by The Redfox View Post

      Isn't creating a manufactured discount the same thing??? You say your product was $197, but now its only $47? C'mon you were never going to and never WILL sell it for $197!
      In the UK this is against the law - the product has to have been available for sale at the higher price in order for this type of statement to be legal and the Trading Standards organisation happily shut businesses down because of this.

      You'd think that will all the crap Frank Kern went through a few years ago, most IMers would know better - but a new people come online every day so I suppose it's bound to happen, but you'd think most IMers would've found out that these tactics can get you in deep poo.

      Andy
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      • Profile picture of the author Hyaku_Man
        Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

        In the UK this is against the law - the product has to have been available for sale at the higher price in order for this type of statement to be legal and the Trading Standards organisation happily shut businesses down because of this.
        But instead of saying it has been a higher price before, they can just say something like "$187 value! For only $49.99!" You can determine value by any criteria you want. Is that illegal as well?

        I don't see any problem with this stuff. When I'm buying something I know what these little marketing tricks are, and they're not going to make me buy the product. But if I'm already sold on the product but putting off the purchase or whatever, then they might give me the final push to make a final decision.
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  • Profile picture of the author TelegramSam
    If someone's site has a false "scarcity counter" of any kind, whether that is "82 seats left", "only 6 remaining", "now just $97 instead of $497" or whatever, they are CHEATS and DISHONEST.

    You can justify it a million ways if you want, such as "the guy is only young" or "he probably had somebody write the script" or "he means well".

    Utter crap.

    If you put your name to something, or if it is your site, you make damn well sure that you know what is on it, especially when trying to sell something and ask someone for money.

    There are many, many strategies and techniques of persuasion, none of which need to include dishonesty or lying.

    Perhaps, offering a truly great product, giving excellent customer service and generating fantastic word of mouth for it at a decent price is too complicated for most people.

    Let's all help to clean up the world of internet marketing and follow the principles of the above paragraph.

    Then maybe one day when we see someone trying to scam or lie to others that becomes a surprise instead of the norm.

    Here's hoping.

    TelegramSam
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  • Profile picture of the author 2Quick
    The thing that cracks me up the most is, that most of these offers or products are Clickbank products, LOL! And if they are Clickbank products, then they are definately going to run out anytime soon! If you only have X amount of seats, or product, then you surely are not putting up on Clickbank, then again I could be wrong, since I am new to all this crap! LOL
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    • Profile picture of the author Spencer Haws
      Originally Posted by 2Quick View Post

      The thing that cracks me up the most is, that most of these offers or products are Clickbank products, LOL! And if they are Clickbank products, then they are definately going to run out anytime soon! If you only have X amount of seats, or product, then you surely are not putting up on Clickbank, then again I could be wrong, since I am new to all this crap! LOL
      Affiliate classroom is not a clickbank product.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris W. Sutton
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jeff Usher
    However, ask any marketing expert here and they will tell you it's a clever marketing ploy designed to to encourage people to take action.

    Wrong.

    I challenge you to find one legitimate marketing expert who would think that.
    Well, actually, it IS a clever marketing ploy designed to encourage people to take action AND it works! The problem is that it reflects a lack of integrity back on the website owner.

    As Andy said, Anik was always a humble, stand-up kind of guy who was very considerate of others. He was extremely nice and was always lending a helping hand. It's been quite a while since I have had anything to do with him so I can't speak of who he is now but I would be surprised if he were unethical.

    Still, you have to be responsible for your websites and the image they project. You can watch years of goodwill and great branding go right down the tubes with just one mistake whether you did it yourself or whether you outsourced the work.

    Another marketing tactic used by a lot of marketers is the old "Oops! I gave you a bad link!" email. Perhaps they didn't get enough response from the first email so they try it again. I guess a lot of people don't see anything wrong with this but, to me, it reflects a certain lack of quality control. It makes me wonder what other mistakes the person may have made with the product they are selling.



    Website owners need to take responsibility and KNOW what is happening on their websites.
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  • Profile picture of the author SMP
    I guess this is an accepted tactic within the IM community and, although most people posting here would not be fooled by it, there are plenty that probably would be.

    It might well work for some offers but I, personally, would not use this tactic. The way I see it, my business is all about forging relationships with buyers and gaining their trust so they become long terms buyers / subscribers, etc. I don't want them to think I'm using underhand tactics to make a fast buck from them.

    Interesting reading the comments, though.

    Steve.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Not a tactic I would personally use. And personally, I think it was a dumb idea to use it. And as Forrest Gump said, "That's all I've got to say about that."

    RoD
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  • Profile picture of the author CliveG
    We are all used to hype these days but this goes beyond that. In fact it is possibly illegal under UK law.

    I was always taught to be honest with your customers, suppliers and staff and nothing that I have come across has caused me to change that. As an earlier poster said: if he's lying about this what else is he lying about; how could you ever trust him or his products?

    Does anyone really limit the number of digital products that they sell? And, if so, why?
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    • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
      Originally Posted by CliveG View Post


      Does anyone really limit the number of digital products that they sell? And, if so, why?
      I have done in the past...

      For two reasons:

      a) For a limited price offer to a set number of people

      and

      b) To limit the number of people who get hold of the information.

      Peace

      Jay
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      • Profile picture of the author CliveG
        Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

        I have done in the past...

        For two reasons:

        a) For a limited price offer to a set number of people

        and

        b) To limit the number of people who get hold of the information.

        Peace

        Jay
        Hi Jay,

        (a) I understand, but with (b) once you sell or otherwise release the information you lose control over it (in practice if not legally) so why would you not want to sell as many copies as possible as soon as you can. If the reason is that the use of the information diminishes your own income why sell it in the first place?

        Cheers, Clive
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by CliveG View Post

      Does anyone really limit the number of digital products that they sell? And, if so, why?
      I've done this too. I always do it with my WSOs because I usually run them to get feedback and testimonials and I only want people who will use it right away and provide that feedback. I normally run a WSO 2 weeks before I'm planning to launch my products publicly (if they're related to IM) in order to have enough time to integrate changes before I launch.
      Making the WSO a lower price than I'm launching to the public at and limiting the number means everyone wins - The warriors get a good deal on a product and access it before anyone else, and I get important feedback at just the right time.

      Although I don't state that I won't run the WSO again later - I don't think I've ever re-run a WSO after the first time, so the time limitation has always been deadly serious - to the point where people have complained when I pull it because they didn't think I would (they assumed it was a scarcity tactic that wasn't serious).

      I can understand why people would think that for digital products you might want to just sell it as much as possible, but not everyone runs their business the same way or for the same reasons, so there will always be exeptions to any rule.

      Andy
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  • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
    I'm with Andy here, I've known Anik since he was a kid running round the boards looking for advice etc and I've always had the utmost respect for him. He's a very good marketer.

    I would also be very surprised if he was condoning this script being used on his site basically because it's just so amateurish! It's something you see newbies or desperados using.

    My guess is that it's been outsourced and some twit has decided it would be a good idea to use it. Either that or Anik has lost his marbles, (which I'm sure he hasn't)

    Kim
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    • Profile picture of the author matthewd
      Originally Posted by Kim Standerline View Post

      My guess is that it's been outsourced and some twit has decided it would be a good idea to use it. Either that or Anik has lost his marbles, (which I'm sure he hasn't)

      Kim
      Anik is still the one responsible for the people doing his work.

      I sure hope he reviews things other people do for him before
      he puts it online.

      EDIT: I'm not bashing the guy, mistakes happen and hopefully
      this was just a mistake... I'm just stating that whether he did
      personally made it or not is irrelevant.
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    As a sidenote...

    I think it is best for all if we keep this discussion limited to the tactic being discussed and not the marketer who is using it..

    Peace

    Jay
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Baker
    What goes around, comes around. It'd be intersting to see how many actually attend. Bet the numbers will be low!
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    I've had a dim view of several "guru" marketers for these kinds of ploys for quite some time.

    Kern & Walker are two guys that stand above the rest when it comes to truly limiting the number of slots available for something, and making good on yanking it down when the limit has been reached.
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  • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
    It's good to see people not entering into a full scale slanging match about those involved in this project but to suggest the key exponents didn't check the front of their own website or have any indication of what was going on is beyond surreal.

    I've just watched one of his videos in the members area and he is a very careful man, to the last cm on where content on a sales page should go.

    Nothing was a "mistake" on that page and he would have known exactly what was going on it and checked it 1000 times.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Perhaps - but since you're assuming that, why pretend that it's a fact?

    Is there literally zero room for anyone to suggest that it may be a mistake or overlooked?

    Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

    I've met Anik a few times and he's a good guy, so I'm inclined not to jump into attacking him.

    Andy
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    • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

      Perhaps - but since you're assuming that, why pretend that it's a fact?

      Is there literally zero room for anyone to suggest that it may be a mistake or overlooked?

      Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

      I've met Anik a few times and he's a good guy, so I'm inclined not to jump into attacking him.

      Andy
      Because Andy by any measure he's a key part of that site, an ardent IM'er himself and somebody who pays detailed attention to the exact location of items on his websites. He's hardly likely to be unaware of a whopping great timer sat on the home page of his sales copy.

      We can rarely be sure of anything 100% in this world but equally there's a point at which likelyhoood vastly exceeds the other option.

      It's a major part of the home page , MAJOR and to suggest he just kinda didn't really notice it on his massive product launch is stretching reality to extremes.

      If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it's a duck..

      He may well be a nice guy, but sometimes things actually are what they seem, barely makes him a serial killer for using some fake scarcity.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

      Perhaps - but since you're assuming that, why pretend that it's a fact?

      Is there literally zero room for anyone to suggest that it may be a mistake or overlooked?
      Andy, while I completely understand you not wanting to unfairly blame anyone, I would have to say that IMO, whether or not it is a mistake is completely irrelevant. He is still responsible for the content on his site.

      Either:

      A) He made a mistake in not checking the content;
      B) He checked it but didn't recognize the potential for negative reaction;
      C) He actually approved the use of this misleading device.

      In any of those situations, the responsibility still falls squarely on the site owner.
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      • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
        Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly View Post

        Andy, while I completely understand you not wanting to unfairly blame anyone, I would have to say that IMO, whether or not it is a mistake is completely irrelevant. He is still responsible for the content on his site.

        Either:

        A) He made a mistake in not checking the content;
        B) He checked it but didn't recognize the potential for negative reaction;
        C) He actually approved the use of this misleading device.

        In any of those situations, the responsibility still falls squarely on the site owner.
        iIndeed, and can anybody really imagine that the creator of numerous product launches and a man who runs a company that amongst other things looks at sites and improves the layout , structure and so forth , bizarely on his own million dollar launch just happened to miss a huge blue banner with a ticking count down timer slap bang in the middle of his home page of the sales copy. I mean seriously ....

        What's the alternative, that some masked IM/web designer, who had full access to the site, removed the existing content, re-arranged the site, implemented this code and all without the co-owner of the project happening to notice ?

        Sites like this arn't thrown together in 10 minutes, it would have taken weeks of tweaking and configuring with every aspect designed, discussed and mulled over a thousand times, and to suggest that on the launch day of a product of this size and scale with so many big names involved that he didn't know what was on his home page is ridiculous.

        He would have been anally retentive over every single aspect of that site, and especially what's prominent and front and center on the home page, they would have been looking at their sales copy and funnel and thousand times over.

        He's not a guy who doesn't know what he's doing, this is what he does, he doesn't let rogue coder/web designers have free range on a site like this to implement something of this nature without him being aware.

        He's always seemed a nice guy from what I've seen of him, he made a bad call, it happens, it was cheap and tacky but I've seen waaaay worse BS and the reality is a huge part of his market (newbies) won't see it coming a mile away.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jeff Walker
          I am DEFINITELY not defending this tactic... anyone who has studied my material already knows where I land on this type of thing.

          HOWEVER, I couldn't let this go:

          Originally Posted by SimonHarrison View Post

          Sites like this arn't thrown together in 10 minutes, it would have taken weeks of tweaking and configuring with every aspect designed, discussed and mulled over a thousand times, and to suggest that on the launch day of a product of this size and scale with so many big names involved that he didn't know what was on his home page is ridiculous.

          He would have been anally retentive over every single aspect of that site, and especially what's prominent and front and center on the home page, they would have been looking at their sales copy and funnel and thousand times over.
          Simon - I guessing you haven't been involved in any major launches.

          If you really think that a site like this gets tested and tweaked over weeks of time... well trust me, that ain't what happens behind the scenes. Some of the stuff that slips through the cracks is amazing.


          - Jeff
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          • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
            Originally Posted by Jeff Walker View Post

            I am DEFINITELY not defending this tactic... anyone who has studied my material already knows where I land on this type of thing.

            HOWEVER, I couldn't let this go:

            Simon - I guessing you haven't been involved in any major launches.
            You would "guess" correctly Jeff.

            If you really think that a site like this gets tested and tweaked over weeks of time... well trust me, that ain't what happens behind the scenes. Some of the stuff that slips through the cracks is amazing.


            - Jeff
            Having worked on some minor launches every element is tweaked continually, and frankly even if we put all that aside, and I can certainly appreciate once it's your 50th major launch you tend to get a lot less anal about it but to suggest that a site wide glaring blue banner with customised code sat front and center on their home page "slipped through the cracks" is twaddle. Somebody had to get the graphics/coder guy to create it, that entire feature would have been discussed prior to implementation.

            Lets also not forget these guys actually had their own product launch product, that sales funnel of there's did not just get wanged together by accident, not even close, it had like 6 upsells, 2 scripts running and then in addition it's assiging permissions to a members area based on order selection.

            Those guys knew exactly what was on their site, and they sure as hell knew what was on their home page at least, expecially when it was almost the key feature.

            Sure stuff can slip through the cracks, ie a typo here, some screwed code there , broken link, screwed upsell, I hear you, but this doesn't mirror a mistake, this isnt' something missed, it's something added, and something purposely added.

            Even a good quality outsourcer web guy won't be making scripts like that and graphics like that without having consulted with the client , that kind of thing is at the clients behest. Anyway these guys have full offices and internal staff, this isn't some tinpot operation. These guys will almost guaranteed have their own designer web guy doing this work and they will have been working together on the site.

            Personally I think the technique comes across as a little tacky to died in the wool IM'ers but I've seen way worse, my only bone of contention is the credit to our intelligence, everybody is already so wary of scarcity BS, but to make such a blatantly bad attempt at it, it's sort of a bit insulting.

            Which is ultimately a bit of a shame as having seen the members area, it really is a work of art bar a few flaws, it's probably the best I've ever seen, the scripting and implementation is way ahead of the pack.
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            • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
              Originally Posted by SimonHarrison View Post


              Sure stuff can slip through the cracks, ie a typo here, some screwed code there , broken link, screwed upsell, I hear you, but this doesn't mirror a mistake, this isnt' something missed, it's something added, and something purposely added.

              Anyway these guys have full offices and internal staff, this isn't some tinpot operation. These guys will almost guaranteed have their own designer web guy doing this work and they will have been working together on the site.
              I'm impressed with your hallucination skills.

              Having been in IM for over 10 years myself I've done tons of launches for myself and with others, and things ALWAYS slip through - sometimes so blatently big you can't imagine how you missed it.

              I don't think it helps anyone making all these assumptions about the way other people do things. Just because they're successful in making money - doesn't infer anything about the way they do their business. I know people making great money who couldn't put together a website if they tried, and they don't want to think about it - they just tell their 'guy' "here's the video - put up a sales page with a sign up form" and then get on with other things.

              I have no reason to stand in Aniks corner on this other than I've seen him on his IM journey and he's a hard-working and focused person who I believe tries to walk his talk and build his business seriously.

              Something like this does lead people to generalise about the problem and imply things about the person and their business in general, but since Anik isn't here to defend himself I think it's better to stick to opinions about the strategy (which in this case is pretty focused and negative), rather than push the boat out on implications about the persons ethics and business.

              I believe everyone deserves both the benefit of the doubt (at least once) and a second chance if they do screw up once.

              Andy
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              • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
                Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

                I'm impressed with your hallucination skills.
                Sigh....

                I know people making great money who couldn't put together a website if they tried, and they don't want to think about it - they just tell their 'guy' "here's the video - put up a sales page with a sign up form" and then get on with other things.
                Snip.

                If you really think that website was put up with that little thought fine or purpose fine,. it's utterly ludicrous to anybody who understands the reality of building a multi upsell multi choice php script driven sales funnel that it wasn't built with a "slap this form up there" mentality. By any stretch of reality it's surreal to believe it was some quick slap it up job and even a bigger stretch of reality that the scarcity tactic employed was (a) never discussed with the site owner and (b) never even seen.

                I have no reason to stand in Aniks corner on this other than I've seen him on his IM journey and he's a hard-working and focused person who I believe tries to walk his talk and build his business seriously.
                No particular difference in opinion here, doesn't detract from anything previously said however. My focus isn't on him, or infact actually how bad this tactic is, purely on the amusing premise that he sits in an ivory tower with no clue whatsoever as to what elements are on the home page of a million dollar launch, and that infact somehow he just told a web guy to "slap something up for me" and then went on holiday.


                I think it's better to stick to opinions about the strategy (which in this case is pretty focused and negative),
                Would be rather hard to be positive about fake scarcity tactics. If you have some positive ones, shoot.

                and a second chance if they do screw up once.

                Andy
                Indeed, again , no argument here. Infact I would take it further and say it's almost a non issue , I've seen so much worse BS, this pales into insignificance. My issue is more about how strange it appears to believe that something "added" to a website is something that slips through the cracks. Something missing sure, somethign broken sure, but to add a major feature and call that "slipping through the cracks"., well... as the kids say ...whatever...

                No interest in wasting further time on what is crystal clear, this is quite clearly a case of never the twain shall meet.

                Stuff slipping through the cracks sure, it happens, this however is entirely different and it's illogical to suggest otherwise Andy.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeGriffith
    I still happen to believe that honesty is the only policy. Before I hype and lie about my product, I'll just go and get a better product. Besides, it's not fair to the consumer. And it could be a disaster for your business when your prospects find out they've been lied to. You can call it smart marketing if you want, but it's not something I would do, neither would I do business with anyone who does.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
    My initial reaction was "it has nothing to do with the product itself, so what's the big deal"... I mean, do we cry foul when we see ads on TV that say "if you respond in the next 10 minutes, you will also get_____"?? Cheesey, yes - but I usually just shake my head at it.

    But after going to the site myself and seeing it first hand, I actually now find myself doubting a lot of what he says and wondering what other 'white lies' are being woven into it all...
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  • Profile picture of the author AmyBrown
    The countdown remains over 24 hours later so it seems a moot point to discuss whether it's intentional or not. Surely he's taken a peek at his own site during that time period, as have others related to the launch as well as his affiliates. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be a concern.
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by AmyBrown View Post

      The countdown remains over 24 hours later so it seems a moot point to discuss whether it's intentional or not. Surely he's taken a peek at his own site during that time period, as have others related to the launch as well as his affiliates. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be a concern.
      Again - nice mind-reading / hallucinating.

      You (and we) have NO IDEA whether he's looked at the page or is even aware of the issue.

      It's likely - but the TRUTH is - we have no idea. He might be on holiday or just busy with other things.

      I'm surprised at how easily people are making judgements about this and stating opinions as though they're fact.
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  • Profile picture of the author mayapearl
    Yikes, this is really getting on a bit, I don't agree with the tactics but let the ones who never lied, or exaggerated a bit or stretched the truth cast the first stone.

    Mind you, by the amount of stones I would say that there are no sinners around here
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  • Profile picture of the author skippybosco
    A quick check of the "View Source" on the page is a dead giveaway..

    function startCountdown() {
    var m=mx=656;

    var cookie_m = optGetCookie('countdown_val');
    if(cookie_m != '')
    {
    m = cookie_m;
    }

    var min=5;
    var cur=0;
    var df=1;
    ('sts').innerHTML="Only "+m+" Seats Left...";


    var id=setInterval(function() {
    if(Math.random() * 30 < 1) {
    if(m<min) {
    clearInterval(id);
    }
    else {
    m=m-Math.round((Math.random() * 3));
    if(m < min)
    m = min;
    var bw=349;
    var cur=((mx-m)/mx)*bw;
    //cur=($('#inner').width()*2)-bw*(cur/100);
    cur="-"+parseInt(cur)+"px 0px";
    ('sts').innerHTML="Only "+m+" Seats Left...";
    $('#upper').css({'background-position' : cur});

    optSetCookie("countdown_val", m);
    }
    }
    }, 100);
    }
    values are hardcoded in script code to always start from 656 and "countdown" as the function suggests. It stores the current value in a cookie called "countdown_val" so that return visits will not start from the beginning.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bob Willoughby
    Seems like a bad way to start a "trusting" relationship. As soon as someone finds that you tricked them they will never trust you again. Plain and simple.
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  • Profile picture of the author Clark
    All Blair Warren!

    Although, I do like your DLR quote too.

    Updated.
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  • Profile picture of the author Clark
    Originally Posted by MarkWrites View Post

    I personally have not used the date script myself, but wouldn't rule it out in the future. I don't think it is comparable to a fake scarcity tactic at all.
    To me, if the intent is to mislead then the two are comparable - apples to apples.

    Regarding intent, there is no way of knowing the intent unless the product owner provides their rationale... just to be clear about not pointing any fingers without knowing all the facts first and also knowing that there is the possibility of a deceptive practice at play. Innocent until proven and all that.

    The date on a sales letter, or any other piece of correspondence is not necessarily a timestamp of when the sales letter was written, but a timestamp as to when the communication is made.
    That was never in debate as I did state:

    It's a similar tactic if your prospect who read your sales letter today and saw today's date, decides not to buy then goes back to your site tomorrow and sees a different date unless.... you are actually writing the letter each and every day then uploading it to your site = not bloodily likely especially when the copyright notice is dated a few years after electricity was invented
    ...however, I do appreciate the clarity so we stay on topic.

    If the former were true, then for instance every time a credit company sent out either a stock past due notice or a pre-written notice for raising someone's credit limit, it would have to have the original date that the letter was written on it, possibly even years earlier. The date is meant for the moment that the communication with the customer is made, not as a way of logging when it was written.
    True, we are both talking about the "delivered" message as I was which stated that the date should be static and not dynamic.

    The delivered message should have a static date, not a dynamic date although, I do wish my credit card company, mortgage company, municipal utilities and wedding invitations used a dynamic due date.

    I'm all too familiar with messaging templates however, the moment it is delivered to me then it is dated at some point shortly before I am in receipt of it. That date and the message doesn't change no matter how many beers I've had before and after I read it and also, when I sober up to return to it again.

    Online sales letters differ from printed ones, mainly because of how the delivery is made.
    Not true. "Typical" (read: traditional) Online long form sales letters are copied in the same manner as the offline direct response marketing world paper letter delivered in an envelope.

    When one medium over another distorts the message as it was intended to be delivered then we're all in trouble.

    If person A goes to person B's site and sees the letter, they are being communicated with on that day and there isn't anything wrong with it having that day's date on it.
    Hmmmm.... unless the intent is to mislead the prospect into thinking that the product was just released today thus, perceived to be current and relevant in the marketplace.

    Should another person come tomorrow, the same principle is true.
    True however, as I previously stated, should the same person return tomorrow then the date would change but the delivered message would remain the same. Why? What is the rationale... so the prospect knows today's date? Not likely.

    That being said, if there is other text around the current date script like "Get yours before anyone else" or "I discovered this new technique today" and the purpose is meant to change the significance of the date, then I would agree that it is misleading and possibly shady.
    There's a lot of that out there today and also why I spoke of it in reply to another post as another tactic (similar to false scarcity) that I perceive to belong in the deception bin due to the misleading message it delivers to the prospect.

    We're largely in agreement and I do appreciate the clarity you provided in regards to the distinction between when the letter was written and when it was delivered which, was never debated by me and I do agree, there is a distinction.

    Mark you wrote: "I personally have not used the date script myself, but wouldn't rule it out in the future."

    What would be your rationale for your contemplation of the use a dynamic date script if you haven't ruled it out?

    I ask because I may be missing something here that I haven't considered yet.

    .
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    • Profile picture of the author MarkWrites
      Originally Posted by Clark View Post

      We're largely in agreement and I do appreciate the clarity you provided in regards to the distinction between when the letter was written and when it was delivered which, was never debated by me and I do agree, there is a distinction.
      I do appreciate that we are largely in agreement. It appears that the issue really isn't the date script so much as the intent the person had when placing it in their sales letter, and judging someone's intent is not always an easy thing to do (although in some cases... it's very easy).

      Mark you wrote: "I personally have not used the date script myself, but wouldn't rule it out in the future."

      What would be your rationale for your contemplation of the use a dynamic date script if you haven't ruled it out?

      I ask because I may be missing something here that I haven't considered yet.
      I wouldn't say I have a rationale for using it, just that I don't have a reason to say I would never use it because I can see that there are ways to use it correctly and ethically. Because the date script can be used rightly and wrongly though, it can be ambiguous in it's meaning. I usually try not to have any ambiguous content in any marketing materials because I feel I don't really ever want the customer/client interpreting my words, I want my words to spell out exactly what I mean.
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  • Profile picture of the author mywebwork
    This tactic is no different from the one you've been seeing for years on commercials and late-night infomercials. They put a countdown timer at the bottom of the screen and tell you that if you don't call before the clock runs out you'll be missing out on the deal of a lifetime. Of course we all know that when you see the same infomercial or commercial again you'll be given the same opportunity at the same price.

    Both the website and infomercial elect the same response from me - they insult my intelligence. And by doing that you send me the message that (A) you have no respect for my intelligence or (B) your product is targeted towards morons.

    Either way you won't make the sale with me!

    Bill
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by mywebwork View Post

      This tactic is no different from the one you've been seeing for years on commercials and late-night infomercials. They put a countdown timer at the bottom of the screen and tell you that if you don't call before the clock runs out you'll be missing out on the deal of a lifetime. Of course we all know that when you see the same infomercial or commercial again you'll be given the same opportunity at the same price.

      Both the website and infomercial elect the same response from me - they insult my intelligence. And by doing that you send me the message that (A) you have no respect for my intelligence or (B) your product is targeted towards morons.

      Either way you won't make the sale with me!

      Bill
      Are they the same?

      That would be illegal in the UK and I would've thought in the US - I assumed that they must be wording things to stay within such laws and that because they were being sold on TV - they literally were only assured to be available for the duration of the show at the prices shown. By the nature of the fact that you're only able to see the offer while the advertisement/show is on, maybe there's a difference?

      I can't imagine that blatant lying about the availability would fall through advertising laws on TV.

      Andy
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      nothing to see here.

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  • Profile picture of the author markshields
    Well just saying hello jani its nice to see you on here
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  • Profile picture of the author Ashley Wright
    Personally I have always found out that honesty is the best policy, you owe it to you pontential buyers to be truthful from the start! If you can't be truthful about how many seats are left how truthful is it that the product or service you are selling actually works?
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Andy,

      In this world we usually see what's inside us. We recognize outside of use that which is in us. If we're immoral then immorality is what we see.

      You seem to bee seeing naivety and myopia - so I would ask you to consider why.
      You seem to be seeing multiple hallucinations - so I would ask you to consider why...

      ...not buy a bag of these philosopher's stone truffles. They're far out man...
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      • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi Andy,



        You seem to be seeing multiple hallucinations - so I would ask you to consider why...

        ...not buy a bag of these philosopher's stone truffles. They're far out man...
        Good call.

        This thread is like a mosquito bite - annoying but you keep giving it your attention

        I like Anik just because I know he's a hard worker and has made is success a reality from nothing - like most people here wish. So, despite this crappy tactic I can't bring myself to think badly of him.

        It seems that most people that are struggling like to take pot-shots at any opportunity and this has been blown out of proportion.

        I think we all pretty much agree that the tactic is not something we feel good about - and we're only responsible for our own actions and results, so dragging out the criticism of others isn't really a constructive use of time (IMHO).

        I think I'll leave the thread to those who still have nothing better to do now.

        Andy
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        nothing to see here.

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  • Profile picture of the author blur
    Just as a side note - if I see any sales letter with the current date on it, I move on. If they lie about the date the letter was written, who knows what else...
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
      Originally Posted by blur View Post

      Just as a side note - if I see any sales letter with the current date on it, I move on. If they lie about the date the letter was written, who knows what else...
      I saw an online sales letter the other day that had:

      "Today is August 18, 2009"

      at the top.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
    Here's an amusing send up of Disney's "scarcity" technique, "The Disney Vault":

    Saturday Night Live - Disney Vault (VT) - Video - NBC.com
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  • We are giving Anik and his people a pretty tough time on this one tactic. While I understand this doesn't pass most people's "muster," even if it was intentional I think this thread is way overblown.

    When I first met Anik he was just a guy hanging out at IM forums, trying to figure out how to make money from his BetterGPA.com website.

    He was skeptical and didn't believe making a living online was "real."

    I suspect he sounds like some of you.

    He kept learning, kept growing, launched Affiliate Classroom and now has experienced unbelievable success. Two weeks ago he told me he had just crossed off one of the big items from his dream list: Buying his parents a luxury car.

    Anik is who most people here hope to be in a few years. Even if he made a mistake here, how many of us want a mistake we will make in the future talked about on an endless thread?

    Let's decide what we will do personally in our own business and try to learn from Anik how he has gone so far, so fast.
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    • Profile picture of the author psresearch
      Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter View Post

      When I first met Anik he was just a guy hanging out at IM forums, trying to figure out how to make money from his BetterGPA.com website.

      He was skeptical and didn't believe making a living online was "real."
      I agree. I don't like the tactic - and personally I don't even believe the excuse the Affiliate Manager came in and posted (no proof, just a gut feeling), BUT...

      I DO remember when when Anik was a complete newbie asking countless questions on the old ABlake forum and other forums and obviously, working, studying hard and taking action.

      Yes, there is something to be learned about reputation management at the speed of the web, but isn't there MUCH more to learn by studying how Anik was able to build such a large and sucessful business so rapidly? That's what really interests me and for me is worth studying the most.

      Again, I am NOT defending this latest launch or even Anik's part in this launch - even if what the Affiliate Manager has said is true, it was written in such a way that stinks of "lack of ownership" and playing the "blame game" instead of being accountable.

      And yes, I believe Anik is a "good guy" and was sad to see how this all played out.
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  • Profile picture of the author mjbmedia
    Ive not read through the whole thread so forgive me if Im treading over old ground.

    Two points Id like to open up,
    1) If you are an affiliate of this site mentioned in the thread, and as a result of their 'tactics' you earned £10000, then discovered about the counter, would you hand the commission back?

    2) I agree with those who say if they lie to you early on then you cant really beleive them down the line etc. However many non marketing people will fall for the trick and sign up to this instead of signing up with a straight up honest sales page tactic type website..... so whats the solution to that? the tactic works and unless the clients are reading this thread, they arent going to know theyve been misled. .. so the dishonest approach wins.
    is it any different to saying there are only 88 training manuals left, crossing that thru and putting 56, crossing that thru and putting 22 etc when in fact theres unlimited downloads available, a tactic used by many and for a long time?

    Me I think it sucks but at the same time it does it's job and people don't fall for the old style of stating theres only a few left so order now.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jay Jennings
    Sheesh, that explanation was fine. I read it as, "We screwed up, we'll fix it right away."

    What more do you want? Blood? Someone to be fired?

    From beginning post to now we're talking about 3 days -- not 3 weeks or 3 months.

    Using a fake counter like that is dishonest, but if you've never pulled a boneheaded move (on purpose or by accident) then you probably haven't ever accomplished anything, either, because stuff happens.

    In general I don't think someone should be tarred and feathered due to a single act -- a track record should freaking well count for something.

    Jay Jennings
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    • Profile picture of the author Intrepreneur
      WARNING: There is now only one seat left and it's for [YOU]
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      Started this stuff 2009. Time is what will teach you the skills you need.

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    • Originally Posted by Jay Jennings View Post

      Sheesh, that explanation was fine. I read it as, "We screwed up, we'll fix it right away."
      Hardly. More like "We really didn't expect to get called to the carpet on this. Let's try weaseling around it with a snow job".

      I mean, what marketer could really think that was a "sync" problem with the "tech team".

      It's almost more insulting to my intelligence than the fake counter.

      Mar
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      • Profile picture of the author Jay Jennings
        Originally Posted by internetmarketer99 View Post

        I mean, what marketer could really think that was a "sync" problem with the "tech team".
        Well, maybe any marketer who's ever been part of a tech team and been given crappy specs.

        Not saying that's what happened here, but often the guys in the suits give the guys with the beanies specs that are incomplete or ambiguous.

        And if the guys with the beanies think they know what's wanted, they won't go ask for clarification (because they don't know it needs to be clarified, of course).

        I don't know Anik, I'm not an affiliate or associate of his in any way, but for you to declare your opinion as fact is about on par with purposefully using a fake counter.

        I worked on tech teams for years and even in HUGE companies stupid stuff happens.

        Jay Jennings
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  • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
    You know we've all made some stupid mistakes. (I know I have).

    When you run a business you have to rely on the team working for you. (I know I did when I was juggling several sites etc). I had about 6 people working for me and mine was a smallish business so I can't imagine how many people Anik has working for him.

    I relied on the people working for me to get it right, (It's what I paid them for), and I certainly didn't examine everything personally with a fine toothcomb because

    a) I didn't have the neccesary skills
    b) I didn't have the time

    Obviously someone in Aniks team screwed up (Crap happens), but instead of stoning him over it, lets instead learn a lesson from it.

    Mistakes can happen with anyone (even those with a pretty huge online business).

    I'd suggest that some of the posters with the holier than thou attitudes in this thread look at themselves and examine carefully whether they have done anything online which could be construed as a tad stupid, I'm sure most of us have.

    Personally I just assumed it was a mistake because I couldn't imagine Anik doing anything so tacky, but then I guess I didn't feel the need to flame someone who has become so successful. (Anyone notice how often that happens).

    Kim
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    • Originally Posted by Kim Standerline View Post

      You know we've all made some stupid mistakes. (I know I have).

      ...
      Obviously someone in Aniks team screwed up (Crap happens), but instead of stoning him over it, lets instead learn a lesson from it.

      Mistakes can happen with anyone (even those with a pretty huge online business).

      ...
      No disrespect to the poster, but that's just ridiculous.

      How about, it's exactly as it appears: this is a very sharp and sophisticated marketer, who went with something he shouldn't have in order to boost conversions, it backfired, and now it's anything-at-all-to-maintain-the-appearance-of-untarnished-integrity?

      Reminds me of all those "server crashes" during extremely carefully planned and choreographed launches. And all those "oops" emails.

      Now I agree, lessons to be learned, etc., and there's a lot more 'stoning' here than most marketers doing similar things get, but it is what it is.

      Mark
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      • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
        Hi

        Well I've sent out oops emails, and they have always been genuine, I know other people have as well. Though of course I'm not denying it can be another silly marketing trick used by some.

        Not sure why a server crash would be a marketing ploy, I'm sure if I was launching something, I'd want folks to actually be able to get onto the page to actually buy it!

        The fact that the marketer in question is very sharp and sophisticated is another reason to question that he authorised this.

        The site is aimed at marketer's. Most marketer's (as evidenced by this thread) know it's a tacky outdated gambit. well below Anik's usual standards

        Sometimes we can't see the wood for the trees

        Kim

        Originally Posted by internetmarketer99 View Post

        No disrespect to the poster, but that's just ridiculous.

        How about, it's exactly as it appears: this is a very sharp and sophisticated marketer, who went with something he shouldn't have in order to boost conversions, it backfired, and now it's anything-at-all-to-maintain-the-appearance-of-untarnished-integrity?

        Reminds me of all those "server crashes" during extremely carefully planned and choreographed launches. And all those "oops" emails.

        Now I agree, lessons to be learned, etc., and there's a lot more 'stoning' here than most marketers doing similar things get, but it is what it is.

        Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author iw
    No doubt that counter is not real, we have this thread because we know it's faked.

    But there are many people out there that didn't know about the counter and I believed it has psychologically triggered them to pull the credit card from their wallet.
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    • Profile picture of the author psresearch
      Originally Posted by iw View Post

      No doubt that counter is not real, we have this thread because we know it's faked.

      But there are many people out there that didn't know about the counter and I believed it has psychologically triggered them to pull the credit card from their wallet.
      Look, I wasn't crazy about the fake counter either. I've mentioned that before...BUT the people that pulled their credit cards out of their wallets got EXTREMELY good and COMPLETE information that Anik could have easily sold as a standalone product for MUCH more. MUCH more.

      AND they can easily CANCEL their membership right if they want to from their membership profile.
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      • Profile picture of the author Lance K
        Did the rules change about naming names and bashing people? I must have missed it.

        Too bad. Because an otherwise interesting thread has gone way donw hill. And the whole thing will probably end up being deleted because of it.
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  • Profile picture of the author MeCanX
    I think it's stupid as the site gives you away as soon as you click to it...so then you automatically lose creditability right there...

    I would be like, nope not going to that seminar...
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    • Profile picture of the author Ross Bowring
      Frank Kern is a good example of doing scarcity right...

      Every time he opens his mouth it's a constant drum beat of "my stuff sells out quick"... "my stuff sells out quick"... backed up by examples of when his stuff, did, in actuality, sell out quick.

      No need for fakery. False countdowns or any other nonsense.

      Certainly "name" marketers with results under their belt can use this method... although I can see how someone without a track record would be tempted by the dark side...
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      • Profile picture of the author Hesaidblissfully
        That tactic doesn't really bother me. I guess because I'm used to seeing it. I'm more concerned with whether or not the product being sold does what it says it does.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Ross77 View Post

        Every time he opens his mouth it's a constant drum beat of "my stuff sells out quick"... "my stuff sells out quick"... backed up by examples of when his stuff, did, in actuality, sell out quick.

        No need for fakery. False countdowns or any other nonsense.

        Certainly "name" marketers with results under their belt can use this method... although I can see how someone without a track record would be tempted by the dark side...
        Well, I know someone hasn't been to the FTC site in the past 6 years or so!
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