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ContentPro22

11 years ago

Well said, sir

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Jason Kanigan

11 years ago

What's your point on this one, Ray?

I don't get it.

I also disagree that they want a benchmark.

They want VALIDATION.

But you, I, or the neighbor's dog cannot give them that. We don't know their market. We don't know their target customers' pain points.

I cannot tell you whether its best for a prospect to go to a landing page or product page. You DO have to test.

I can't tell someone what layout for their website will work best. I don't know which layout will work best for MY OWN sites--I have to TEST. And test I have. (You know, these single-page, parallax layouts did nothing for me--for a full year.)

What's the best theme for a lawnmowing company? There isn't one.

Even in methodology discussions such as how to run FB ads or make money on Kindle, you still have to test the content. No one can guarantee the book will sell. Nobody can ensure the ad will be approved, attract, convert. You have to test.

One huge problem WF people persist in is asking for feedback on this or that design. As yourself: are we your target market? If not, don't ask us! Ask them!

I mean, tell me what the "best practices" are for a celebrity site are. Gotta have a hero shot? I don't use one, and it makes no difference at all. Somebody said this was a 'fact' once. We could repeat this 'fact' as if it was true, but it isn't. Is that "best practices"? (There's a lot of that going on here, too.)

In copywriting? No different. Critique away, giving this or that 'fact' about why copy will or won't convert. The truth is, nobody knows until you run viewers to it. You and I can critique all day long but the truth is we don't really know what will happen until we get some data.

You DO have to test. No one knows what will work until they try it out and see what happens.

People need to start working, start collecting feedback and data, rather than seeking emotional validation.

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discrat

11 years ago

Ray,
You have made ONE HUGE mistake in your Post today !!

To "Test" infers that there will be work required.

And many around here seem to have major 'allergies' when it comes to that notion lol

- Robert Andrew

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arrival7 11 years ago

Ray, I follow you and I see where you are coming from, but I am going to have to disagree with you on this one. Testing is different for everyone, what works for one may not work for another and the only way a person would know what works is to test. Many variables are factored in and each situation is unique, this is why testing is so important.
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David Beroff

11 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

You have made ONE HUGE mistake in your Post today !!

To "Test" infers that there will be work required.

And many around here seem to have major 'allergies' when it comes to that notion lol

You'd really have to test that assumption!

{ducking}

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kilgore

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan

I also disagree that they want a benchmark.

They want VALIDATION.

But you, I, or the neighbor's dog cannot give them that. We don't know their market. We don't know their target customers' pain points.

I think this is exactly right. They aren't looking for benchmarks, they're looking for validation. (And Steve's right too: even if they are looking for benchmarks, they probably shouldn't be!)

But more than validation, I think the issue is that people don't want to, don't know how to, or lack the confidence to think for themselves. After all, for my money, the "test" that I think offers the biggest bang for the buck in terms of time and resource investment is simply this: Put yourself into the shoes of their target customers and think about things from their perspective.

Collecting user data, running randomized experiments, doing A/B testing, and all the rest can be very useful. But honestly, most of the time just thinking about (a) what you're trying to accomplish (b) what you're doing to accomplish that and (c) how your users are likely to respond to what your doing will get you 75% - 95% of the way there. Asking some random people who don't know anything about you or your business, on the other hand, might get you 5% of the way there. If that.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't learn from others. But I think that too often people are looking for the wrong kind of learning. And while I understand that answers like "Test" can be unsatisfying, I think the reason they're getting unhelpful answers is that they're asking the wrong questions.

Too many people are looking for easy answers about what niche they should pick, what software they should pick, what they should do. But a much more interesting question than "What?" is "Why?"

"Why do long form (or short form) sales pages work for you?" is far more interesting than "How long should my sales page be?"
"Why do you use affiliate program X?" is far more interesting than "What is the best affiliate program?"
"Why do you use Theme X?" is far more interesting than "What is the best theme?"

Because by asking "Why" instead of "What" it's much easier to think about how what you've learned applies to your situation. In other words: to use that knowledge to help you think for yourself.

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Frank Donovan

11 years ago

Originally Posted by kilgore

Too many people are looking for easy answers about what niche they should pick, what software they should pick, what they should do. But a much more interesting question than "What?" is "Why?"

Exactly. Jason's totally right about testing (post #3), but you won't know what to test until you work out why you're doing what you're doing. Instead of advising "test", we should more often be imploring newcomers to "question".

Ray, your analogy with the weight loss industry is a good case in point. Even today, much of the received wisdom dictates that weight loss is a simple matter of reducing calories and eating healthily. But that over-simplistic formula is being questioned by recent findings in nutritional science and evolutionary biology, causing many "experts" to revise their ideas about what constitutes a "healthy" diet, for instance.

The temptation within the world of internet marketing (or at least the small corner of that world which seems to concern most members here) is to accept a conventional viewpoint that states, for example, that:
- Everyone needs a mentor to succeed
- Success is just a matter of persistence
- Once you sell, you just have to "rinse and repeat"
- etc.

This reluctance to question leads to the same trite advice being trotted out in thread after thread. It leads to a surfeit of dreary copycat marketing by people playing follow-my-leader, under the assumption that what everyone else is doing must be right.

To be clear, testing has its place. But first please question.
.

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JohnMcCabe

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

This reluctance to question leads to the same trite advice being trotted out in thread after thread. It leads to a surfeit of dreary copycat marketing by people playing follow-my-leader, under the assumption that what everyone else is doing must be right.

To be clear, testing has its place. But first please question.
.

One of the dangers of following "the best" squeeze page, order button, theme, etc.

When me-too marketers see their favorite guru do something, they automatically assume that they are seeing the winner of the testing said guru is reputed to do. In a true A/B test, the odds are 50/50 that you are looking at the loser.

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Raydal

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan

What's your point on this one, Ray?

I don't get it.

I also disagree that they want a benchmark.

They want VALIDATION.

Should we test whether we should have a fast loading site or slow one?
Should we test whether we should use a headline or not?

There are standards that don't require testing because they have been
proven before. If everything needed testing, then I couldn't critique
or make suggestions on how a website for example could be improved.

We are able to make suggestions because of existing standards. Now
beyond those standards we begin to test. So "test" is not the answer
to every question.

-Ray Edwards

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DABK

11 years ago

I agree with you and add: most of the times I see people saying Test the question is not of the type you mention here, a question with proven answers but something like: Do long sales letters work better than short ones? Then they explain, make it clear that they are going to write the copy and want to know whether to bother with long copy or not... And then, the answer clearly has to be: Test (Because some people's long is curt and other people's long is verbose).

Originally Posted by Raydal

Should we test whether we should have a fast loading site or slow one?
Should we test whether we should use a headline or not?

There are standards that don't require testing because they have been
proven before. If everything needed testing, then I couldn't critique
or make suggestions on how a website for example could be improved.

We are able to make suggestions because of existing standards. Now
beyond those standards we begin to test. So "test" is not the answer
to every question.

-Ray Edwards

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Princess Balestra 11 years ago

This is super interestin', Ray — especially 'cos you posted recently about the "truth".

Guess we gotta figure what a 'benchmark' might mean.

Is it a universally applicable Zero, from which all departures may be measured accurately?

So we can see UP from here, or DOWN from here, an' know with some degree of accuracy our range an' shift?

Or is our benchmark in a state of flux?

So yesterday's mutual focus becomes a blind spot — kinda like fashion mutates over time?

Seems we got a perpetual conundrum, tryin' to differentiate stuff that is always true from stuff that is seemingly true right now.

In a beautiful world, mebbe everythin' jus' overlaps, an' clarity of vision drives us on in everlastin' perfection.

But we know (an' I am paraphrasin' on a quotation here) that yesterday's heresy becomes tomorrow's accepted wisdom — an' vice versa — an' I wonder what that says about benchmarks an' tests?

Is the truth jus' that we become who we are, acceptin', in a kinda gratitude way, whatever comes to constitute our next workin' startin' point?

Or are we what we become?

Manufacturin' our own reference points outta thin air into steps up outta seemin' nuthin'?

I am meanderin' here, mebbe more than usual

**** Call The Frickin' Cops!!! (!) ****

but I figure tests gotta have reference points in order for the data to be meaningful, an' those reference points gotta figure on our changin' stance toward reality.

Intellectually, we may figure on the difference between a kinda a priori benchmark an' sumthin' oscillatin' out on whimsy.

Problem is, we got capacity for even heartbeat racin' up an' down on a fancy, all cos' of what is goin' down an' how we perceive it.

There is emergin' panic in the markets right now.

So where is the benchmark?

I figure we do not know alla the 'tests' for all kindsa stuff, an' mebbe we know even less about what are the results an' what they infer.

I am minded to wonder that even if we did figure hard on such tests, it is mebbe in the nature of a soft 'science' like language an' persuasion (as opposed to gravity or the speeda light) to tease us outta settlin' for certainties forever set in stone.
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JC Web

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Raydal

Should we test whether we should have a fast loading site or slow one?
Should we test whether we should use a headline or not?

There are standards that don't require testing because they have been
proven before. If everything needed testing, then I couldn't critique
or make suggestions on how a website for example could be improved.

We are able to make suggestions because of existing standards. Now
beyond those standards we begin to test. So "test" is not the answer
to every question.

-Ray Edwards

I don't know if you're being purposely obtuse here, but those are not the kind of questions people are asking that others are responding to with "test it." Neither is your previous example. The kind of questions that people ask that are responded to with "test" are ones where there is no one right answer.

Maybe you posted this thread just to get attention knowing you'd get a lot of comments telling you how wrong you are. I can't believe you actually believe what you are writing here.

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Jason Kanigan

11 years ago

Originally Posted by JC Web

I don't know if you're being purposely obtuse here, but those are not the kind of questions people are asking that others are responding to with "test it." Neither is your previous example. The kind of questions that people ask that are responded to with "test" are ones where there is no one right answer.

Maybe you posted this thread just to get attention knowing you'd get a lot of comments telling you how wrong you are. I can't believe you actually believe what you are writing here.

Yup, Ray is a smart & experienced guy, and I respect him...that's why I'm engaging.

What's he up to here?

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Raydal 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan

Yup, Ray is a smart & experienced guy, and I respect him...that's why I'm engaging.

What's he up to here?

So when someone ask what is "best" they are really asking for a benchmark
from which to start. The "rules" of the game are simply best practices
that have already been tested in the field. So it's better to start from this
vantage point than testing everything for yourself.

-Ray Edwards
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Raydal

11 years ago

Originally Posted by JC Web

Maybe you posted this thread just to get attention knowing you'd get a lot of comments telling you how wrong you are. I can't believe you actually believe what you are writing here.

No. This is not a trick post. What may seem very "obvious" could also
be wrong at times.

Let me see if I can make this any plainer.

To lose weight you need to burn more calories than you take in and
you need to eat a healthy diet. So why are there so many diets and
weight loss programs for sale. That seems easy enough.

Well, maybe there are some people who are doing those things and
still not losing weight--then they need the extra "expert" advice.

So if someone came and asked, "How do I lose weigh?" You can
tell them to exercise and eat a healthy diet, because these have
been tested and proven already. But if they said they were doing those
things then you can say "test out a new diet."

There are two different levels here:

1. The "rules" have already been worked out and there is a standard
2. The "rules" have not been worked out and so should be tested.

So if someone asks "What is the best way to lose weight, exercise
or diet? "I don't answer "test it out". But if they claimed that they
already exercised and eat well, I can then say "test this diet plan".

I hope this makes sense.

-Ray Edwards

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JC Web 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Raydal

No. This is not a trick post
.....

I hope this makes sense.

-Ray Edwards

Again, those are not the type of questions asked that people are responding to with "test" instead of given a direct answer. The questions that people are responding to by telling them to test aren't questions that have a clear proven answer or a common sense answer, like your examples of having a slow website or an unreadable website or the marketing equivalent of how to lose weight, which has a physiological and medical answer.

The questions being posed repeatedly that are responded to by telling them to test are questions that the person really does have to find the answers for themselves by testing. The kind of questions that are responded to that way don't have written in stone answers, common sense answers, or even highly likely answers. People generally ask these questions because they are lazy.

Except for instances where there is a clear answer that everyone would agree on - like is it better to have a have a slow or fast website, people do need to test. And if someone is asking a question like that, they have bigger problems anyway. For other matters, what works best in one instance won't work best in all instances. What works best for one person, won't work best for everyone. Even small changes can make a significant difference. It's in the person's best interest to test for themselves instead of just doing what someone on a forum tells them to do.
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- Raydal 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by JC Web
  
  Again, those are not the type of questions asked that people are responding to with "test" instead of given a direct answer.
  
  Well, our experiences have been different.
  
  -Ray Edwards
  
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JohnMcCabe

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Raydal

To lose weight you need to burn more calories than you take in and you need to eat a healthy diet. So why are there so many diets and weight loss programs for sale. That seems easy enough.

-Ray Edwards

Ray, you're adding extra assumptions here. Losing weight simply requires burning more calories than you take in. I can eat a "healthy diet" - whatever that means - and still gain weight. No one can seem to agree on what a "healthy diet" is.

So the baseline or benchmark has to be "how many calories do you burn". Once that is established, one can test a variety of diets to see which is most effective as long as the plan meets the requirement of "are the calories eaten with this diet plan less than the benchmark (how many you burn)?"

So when someone comes here and asks something like "what is the best theme for...", the answer starts with "any theme that does A, B and C (pick you criteria - fast, secure, easy to use, etc.)" After that, it's back to testing, or what we called "trial and error" before we knew what an A/B test was.

Usually, that's not what they're really asking for. They want someone to tell them "buy XYZ" and be done with it.

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PopeMarketing

11 years ago

Many of my sales funnels and campaigns started out with pretty poor conversion rates. It was only through split-testing and making changes that I was able to get them in the green. Once that's the case you're golden.

In my opinion if you're not willing to test, you're not gonna get results. End of.

I certainly agree there are certain places to start and certain practises to follow, but that comes down to common sense more than anything surely?

I also agree that it will help many people to get started by explaining how to get started, but that in itself is a problem, as previous posters have mentioned, it's the getting started most people don't bother with, and this has been explained 100's of times over. They want an easy/lazy way to do things, where as if they're willing to test their own ideas and see what works best for them, their offer, their niche, etc, they'll ultimately get the results they want.

Even if they don't get results from testing, at least they've ruled out a multitude of things that don't work so won't make the same mistakes!

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Steve B

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Raydal

So when someone ask what is "best" they are really asking for a benchmark from which to start. The "rules" of the game are simply best practices that have already been tested in the field. So it's better to start from this vantage point than testing everything for yourself.

Ray,

I certainly agree with you about the importance of testing . . . right up to this point (your comment above about sharing a benchmark.)

My benchmark can never, and should never, be the standard for someone else's marketing.

Why? Simply because we all start from a different place. We all bring a different set of skills to the table. We all have different resources and varying amounts of time to work our businesses. Not only that, we are in different niches and different markets.

I believe we all begin with the benchmark set at where we are and move forward from there, testing as we go, and moving the standard higher and higher as we test and gain experience.

I am often frustrated when a new marketer asks where his conversion rate should be, or how many opt-ins he should get from 1,000 unique visitors. There is no right answer - no one should set a benchmark for someone else. You start at the point where you are and try to optimize and tweak until you are profitable and get the ROI you want.

Just my thoughts.

Steve

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EPoltrack77

11 years ago

Amen

Keeping an open mind and not jumping to conclusions on the first thing that happens. Its called the optimization process.

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writeaway

11 years ago

Welcome to the wonderful world of CROWDSOURCING

Sadly, people who try to use WF for crowdsourcing data are doing it in a VERY INEFFICIENT and hamfisted way

There are EASIER and MORE effective alternatives using Reddit and, believe it or not, Wikipedia's editor system

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