Offline prospect wants proof that e-mail marketing works - what do I say?

85 replies
Hello,

I have been talking to a prospective client, offering him e-mail marketing services. He sounded interested, but then backed off a short while later.

When I asked him why, he said that he had asked a few friends, and they had said that they would ignore such e-mails. Presumably his explanation of the idea sounded like spam!

Anyway, I explained it all out again, emphasising the fact that e-mail marketing is BIG, and getting bigger.

His next objection was that he doesn't think it would work for a professional service like his. He is under the impression that it's for e-commerce sites only.

Again, I emphasised that there are plenty of professional people doing it, and it does work.

He asked for proof. Here's where I got stuck. I don't (yet) have any professionals in my client list, so can't offer any proof.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can show evidence that e-mail marketing does work for professional services as well?

By the way, in case anyone is wondering why I am still going with him instead of moving on, I am convinced that he's genuinely interested, and he has already told me he is happy to invest where he sees scope. I just need to convince him that this type of marketing can work for his business.

Thanks for any suggestions.
#email #marketing #offline #proof #prospect #works
  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    Does he believe that direct mail or print marketing works?
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    • Profile picture of the author MrYossu
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      Does he believe that direct mail or print marketing works?
      Probably, but his friends told him that e-mail marketing doesn't, and he has the idea that it's not for professional businesses, so it's probably an academic question!
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  • Profile picture of the author Gene Pimentel
    If you're convinced he is a legitimate potential client and not just busting your chops, why not offer to set him up with an autoresponder and let him see the results for himself? Be sure to remind him that these are people who are asking to be on the list and WANT to see his offers, therefore nothing to do with spam.

    Once he starts seeing results, it's time to buy into your service or take it away from him.
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    • Profile picture of the author Maria Gudelis
      Originally Posted by Gene Pimentel View Post

      If you're convinced he is a legitimate potential client and not just busting your chops, why not offer to set him up with an autoresponder and let him see the results for himself? Be sure to remind him that these are people who are asking to be on the list and WANT to see his offers, therefore nothing to do with spam.

      Once he starts seeing results, it's time to buy into your service or take it away from him.
      Couldn't have said it better Gene! I like the "busting your chops"!

      - Another thing you could do is give him proven examples of email marketing success stories- just google that or 'case studies' or 'whitepapers' and I'm sure you will find plenty!

      Plenty of magazine articles etc. on the above!
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      • Profile picture of the author TimCastleman
        This is why I stopped chasing offline clients. Attract them don't cash them. Of course you could work for free like other offline people recommend but I like to live and eat once in a while.

        Tim
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        • Profile picture of the author chrisnegro
          Originally Posted by TimCastleman View Post

          This is why I stopped chasing offline clients. Attract them don't cash them. Of course you could work for free like other offline people recommend but I like to live and eat once in a while.

          Tim
          Yes...when I meet a client that wants something for free....I always ask this question:

          "Mr. Business Owner.....your in business to put food on your table for you and your family right"? He responds by saying "yes...of course I am" I respond by saying "well...so am I" (And I smile and grin like crazy...even have a slight laugh).

          Actually, I have found by responding this way.....IT WILL KILL HIS IDEA OF FREE MARKETING SERVICES WITH ME. And I overcome this ojbection with a witty and humorous response.

          The delivery is the key to responding I will say. Its kind of like the phenomenon of a commedian....not all jokes are funny....but if the commedian says in the right way....ITS EXTREMELY FUNNY......or in our case ....EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE TO TURN THE TABLES ON THE BUSINESS OWNER FROM WANTING FREE SERVICES.

          When you respond like this, smile and say it it a witty and funny way it will do the following:

          1) Make them laugh
          2) Make them respect you
          3) Condition the business owner that you won't micky around when it comes to money. And trust me....ANY GOOD BUSINESS OWNER WILL DO THIS TO YOU. The power of conditioning the client (that you won't be afraid to talk about the money issue) IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT when you first meet a client. What you birth the client with is what you will keep them with. Business owners like predictability.....so when the time comes to talk about money again (and you didn't bow down to the money topic before) you will increase your chances to get your fee when they need more marketing services from you.

          Success,

          Chris Negro
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          • Profile picture of the author MrYossu
            Originally Posted by chrisnegro View Post

            [B]Yes...when I meet a client that wants something for free...
            OK, not sure if this "working for free" stuff was directed at me or not, but there is no suggestion of working for free here. He has already made it clear that he is prepared to pay if he believes in the idea. He just needs convincing that it will work for his business too.
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        • Profile picture of the author Blase
          This is just my opinion based on my experience.

          If you have to educate, convince, and chase a prospect.
          They are probably going to cost you more than they are worth.

          After working with businesses for 37 years I have one
          word for you.

          NEXT!

          Good luck,
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          "Nothing Happens Until Something Is Sold"
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      • Profile picture of the author MrYossu
        Originally Posted by Maria Gudelis View Post

        Couldn't have said it better Gene! I like the "busting your chops"!
        Hee hee, made me smile too.

        I'm not busting anything over the prospect, I just don't believe in giving up at the first objection.

        Originally Posted by Maria Gudelis View Post

        - Another thing you could do is give him proven examples of email marketing success stories- just google that or 'case studies' or 'whitepapers' and I'm sure you will find plenty!

        Plenty of magazine articles etc. on the above!
        That was precisely the sort of thing I was looking for. I was hoping someone could point me at something authoritative, without the need for me to wade through loads of sales pages for every IM wannabee's latest product!
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        • Profile picture of the author Maria Gudelis
          Originally Posted by MrYossu View Post

          Hee hee, made me smile too.

          That was precisely the sort of thing I was looking for. I was hoping someone could point me at something authoritative, without the need for me to wade through loads of sales pages for every IM wannabee's latest product!
          Hey there - I love research from the Gardner group, techcrunch, marketing sherpa, coremetrics, smallbiztrends dot com, and magazines like entreprenuer, wired, just a start - I took a speed reading course in the 90s so that helps!
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
    This might sound rough, but its time to find a better client.

    Either they get that you are wanting to help their business grow or they don't.

    Problem clients are best eliminated before you get started with them.

    You have already said you plan on staying with him to work on this project, so the best advice that I can give is to find another client and return to this one when he is ready and you have experience to show him.

    The success with this campaign is going to be partially based on how well he knows his clients, and how much they rely on his input before purchasing services.

    It appears that he doesn't have confidence in the people in the list that he would be able to build OR that they would result in profitable contacts.

    You need to know what is the life time value of a customer, and then compare the costs of implementing your proposal in terms of those profit.

    For example do you think that this campaign will give you an additional X clients this year? that would be more than enough to pay for this entire project, and everyone else you get is money in the bank.

    Mark Riddle
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    • Profile picture of the author BrashImpact
      Originally Posted by Mark Riddle View Post

      This might sound rough, but its time to find a better client.

      Either they get that you are wanting to help their business grow or they don't.

      Problem clients are best eliminated before you get started with them.

      You have already said you plan on staying with him to work on this project, so the best advice that I can give is to find another client and return to this one when he is ready and you have experience to show him.

      The success with this campaign is going to be partially based on how well he knows his clients, and how much they rely on his input before purchasing services.

      It appears that he doesn't have confidence in the people in the list that he would be able to build OR that they would result in profitable contacts.

      You need to know what is the life time value of a customer, and then compare the costs of implementing your proposal in terms of those profit.

      For example do you think that this campaign will give you an additional X clients this year? that would be more than enough to pay for this entire project, and everyone else you get is money in the bank.

      Mark Riddle

      Excellent Post Mark,
      I 2nd this as, the time, energy and resources needed to chase down someone like this can be better spent Chasing a 100 new clients. The law of averages will kick in far faster than chasing down one.

      Some Will, Some Won't, Who care's, NEXT !!!


      Go make a 100 sales calls in the next 48 hrs and wipe away the pain.
      Regards,
      Robert Nelson
      "The Maverick Motivator"
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  • Profile picture of the author AmyBrown
    I'm probably the softest sell around but this is what has worked for me: reframe it as a newsletter or news bulletin. They're an expert in their field and surely have knowledge they'd like to share with clients and prospects. I have a accountant client that was adamant about not sending what she termed as spam. However, she happily sends out a monthly newsletter and weekly news flash with relevant info - and a marketing message.
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    This may sound a little harsh...

    But..

    Don't you have any of your own proof that you can offer?... successful (read: profitable) lists that you have built? and therefore can use as an example as a profitable e-mail marketing venture.

    There are some people who might say you have no business telling your potential client that e-mail marketing works, if you haven't yet got it to work for you in your own business...

    Peace

    Jay
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    Bare Murkage.........

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    • Profile picture of the author MrYossu
      Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

      This may sound a little harsh...
      Go on, I can take it

      Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

      But..

      Don't you have any of your own proof that you can offer?... successful (read: profitable) lists that you have built? and therefore can use as an example as a profitable e-mail marketing venture.
      I do, but not professional service providers. My current clients are all the sorts of people that he already believes would benefit from e-mail marketing. I want to show him that even professional services can benefit.

      Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

      There are some people who might say you have no business telling your potential client that e-mail marketing works, if you haven't yet got it to work for you in your own business...
      I would agree with them! As mentioned above, he wants to see evidence of businesses more along his own line.

      Thanks for the reply.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin_Hutto
      Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

      This may sound a little harsh...

      But..

      Don't you have any of your own proof that you can offer?... successful (read: profitable) lists that you have built? and therefore can use as an example as a profitable e-mail marketing venture.

      There are some people who might say you have no business telling your potential client that e-mail marketing works, if you haven't yet got it to work for you in your own business...

      Peace

      Jay
      Agree 100% with this... There are so many going around rounding up offline clients and barely know more than the client they are picking up. Have you put in your 10,000 hours yet?
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      • Profile picture of the author MrYossu
        Originally Posted by Kevin_Hutto View Post

        Agree 100% with this... There are so many going around rounding up offline clients and barely know more than the client they are picking up. Have you put in your 10,000 hours yet?
        10,000? Probably not.

        Enough to know how to make the business owner loads of extra sales? Almost certainly yes.

        I agree that you need to be able to sell them something of value, but I believe I can.
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        • Profile picture of the author TimCastleman
          Remember those 4 NFL players that died off the coast of Florida last year? Turns out it was over a $200 anchor that the boat owner didn't want to cut loose. $200 = 3 lives because he wanted to hang on to the anchor.

          Doesn't seem real smart to me. You go ahead and educate though, I'll just cash the checks.

          Anchors away.
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          • Profile picture of the author Blase
            Originally Posted by TimCastleman View Post

            Remember those 4 NFL players that died off the coast of Florida last year? Turns out it was over a $200 anchor that the boat owner didn't want to cut loose. $200 = 3 lives because he wanted to hang on to the anchor.

            Doesn't seem real smart to me. You go ahead and educate though, I'll just cash the checks.

            Anchors away.
            Amen! Amen! Amen!

            I was privately mentoring a sales a salesperson
            probably twenty years ago now.

            I told him to figure out who is best customers where,
            (80/20 rule) and get rid of the rest.

            His income went from $28,000 to $67,000 in less than
            12 months.
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            "Nothing Happens Until Something Is Sold"
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      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
        Originally Posted by Kevin_Hutto View Post

        Agree 100% with this... There are so many going around rounding up offline clients and barely know more than the client they are picking up. Have you put in your 10,000 hours yet?

        Amen brother! Preach it!

        I cannot possibly stress enough that people acting in the capacity of a "consultant" must must must know what the heck they're talking about from the inside out, every single time they open their mouths to express some point of fact.

        I try to teach people to simply STOP TALKING, unless they're ASKING QUESTIONS.

        It's hard to damage your credibility when you're asking questions because you're not staking any claims of fact.

        Then, take all of the information you get and research everything when you're not in front of the client. Only deliver packaged, prepared reports in WRITING. This gives you time to think through your responses and be prepared for questions.

        SLOW DOWN SLOW DOWN SLOW DOWN

        High energy is great... zeal, and excitement about what you do is fantastic. But when you come across like the hound dog in the old Foghorn Leghorn cartoon, "WHICH WAY DID HE GO GEORGE WHICH WAY DID HE GO..." you start to shoot your credibility - pre sale AND post sale.
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        • Profile picture of the author TimCastleman
          10,000/8 hrs a day = 1250 days = big fat waste of time.

          Know 1 thing more than your market and you are the go to guy.

          You want to be educated - read book, you want to make more money, give me a check. Pretty simple really.
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          • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
            Originally Posted by TimCastleman View Post

            10,000/8 hrs a day = 1250 days = big fat waste of time.

            Know 1 thing more than your market and you are the go to guy.

            You want to be educated - read book, you want to make more money, give me a check. Pretty simple really.
            Not exactly.

            There's this thing called liability. And all a client has to do is prove that you really didn't know WTF you were talking about, and you'll be putting his great grandchildren through college.

            Business owners actually joke about idiots who play office as professional consultants.

            Selling your expertise when there is none is a sure fire path to the defense attorney's office.
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            • Profile picture of the author MacFreddie
              Banned
              Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

              Not exactly.

              There's this thing called liability. And all a client has to do is prove that you really didn't know WTF you were talking about, and you'll be putting his great grandchildren through college.

              Business owners actually joke about idiots who play office as professional consultants.

              Selling your expertise when there is none is a sure fire path to the defense attorney's office.
              I have kids older than most here, let me put in my .02

              I have seen small biz owners completely wiped out, destroyed, BK, can no longer pay their kids college cost, all because some F'n consultant gave them advice that would NEVER, EVAR, work, period.

              There are not too many of us professionals around, and those that are good make the big bucks.

              The upside is that I stand out like a sore D*** when owners talk to me. I've had owners beg me to help them because they felt they were being taken advantage of.

              If you're gonna offer advice, make sure you are an LLC to cover your a$$
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            • Profile picture of the author Glenn Leader
              Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

              Not exactly.

              There's this thing called liability. And all a client has to do is prove that you really didn't know WTF you were talking about, and you'll be putting his great grandchildren through college.

              Business owners actually joke about idiots who play office as professional consultants.

              Selling your expertise when there is none is a sure fire path to the defense attorney's office.
              I have professional liability insurance... dirt cheep. I get
              free legal advice etc. too as part of the package.

              HTH

              Glenn
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        • Profile picture of the author AllAboutAction
          Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

          But when you come across like the hound dog in the old Foghorn Leghorn cartoon, "WHICH WAY DID HE GO GEORGE WHICH WAY DID HE GO..." you start to shoot your credibility - pre sale AND post sale.
          Priceless imagery right here.
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    • Profile picture of the author Glenn Leader
      If you don't have niche list already to show how email marketing
      can bring in real orders, then why don't you get hard to convince
      businesses on your offline marketing list? Let your autoresponder
      do the education while you go out to get more prospects.

      HTH

      Glenn
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  • Profile picture of the author ELArmson
    Unless this is a very good friend, acquaintance or family member who you would like to see succeed, trying to convince them will take more of your time than it is worth. How much do you expect to make back from this one client? Can you make it quicker and easier with other clients?

    If you do want to go ahead with this one person, point them to some of the top businesses that use signups to get names so they can market to them... A few that immediately come to mind are CNN, Washington Post and pretty well any town you'd like to name that has a web presence.

    Does your prospect think they send out spam?

    If he is serious about learning, give him directions to some sites that relate to his business and that offer newsletters, free books, courses, market updates, etc. Tell him to sign up and see what he gets in the mail.

    You might want to point out that he will want people to sign up voluntarily because they want the information. This little exercise will show him exaclty how taht happens. If he'snot willing to go that far, maybe he's just not that serious. And then, you can move on.
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    • Profile picture of the author netkid
      I agree with everyone saying "move on." The smaller "fish" tend to complain more too. I make cold calls to offline businesses 4 days a week and pleasantly find it a numbers game.

      If email marketing doesn't do the trick, sell your prospect on other services you have. I sell the installation and maintenance of business blogs. I offer the opt-in/email marketing component as one of 5 related services I serve up. If they aren't convinced on option #1, I systematically offer the others...if no "bite" then, time to move on!

      Regards,

      Bruce
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    • Profile picture of the author MrYossu
      Originally Posted by ELArmson View Post

      Unless this is a very good friend, acquaintance or family member who you would like to see succeed, trying to convince them will take more of your time than it is worth. How much do you expect to make back from this one client? Can you make it quicker and easier with other clients?
      Given the lifetime value of a client, it's worth my while spending time with him. Bear in mind that once I've got him on board, he's worth a few thousand per year in fairly passive income, along with however much comes out of other services I can offer along the way. That's worth a little effort if you ask me!

      Originally Posted by ELArmson View Post

      If you do want to go ahead with this one person, point them to some of the top businesses that use signups to get names so they can market to them... A few that immediately come to mind are CNN, Washington Post and pretty well any town you'd like to name that has a web presence.
      Excellent point, and exactly what I wanted!

      Originally Posted by ELArmson View Post

      Does your prospect think they send out spam?
      Don't know, but if he does, I can soon re-educate him on that one.

      Thanks very much for the reply.
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    I disagree with "moving on".

    It's value perception based on the gap in knowledge.

    That's why my first post in this topic was a question. Do they believe in the effectiveness of offline forms of direct response marketing?

    If they don't, then you have another issue.

    If they do, then you have a common ground to build upon.

    A consultative sale involves identifying those areas of common understanding first, then building upon them.
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    • Profile picture of the author MrYossu
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      I disagree with "moving on".
      Thank goodness someone does!

      Whilst I don't believe in flogging a dead horse, I also don't agree with giving up before I've discussed the matter thoroughly, especially with a prospect who tells me he's interested in investing in something that will bring in business.

      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      It's value perception based on the gap in knowledge.

      That's why my first post in this topic was a question. Do they believe in the effectiveness of offline forms of direct response marketing?

      If they don't, then you have another issue.

      If they do, then you have a common ground to build upon.

      A consultative sale involves identifying those areas of common understanding first, then building upon them.
      Thanks for that.

      I reckon he probably does believe in other forms. I think he has the word "spam" in his head for e-mail marketing, and disassociates other forms of direct marketing with offline spam.

      Thanks for the reply.
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    • Profile picture of the author MacFreddie
      Banned
      We have a WINNER!

      I'm going to have to spill some of my GOOBER secrets. I should sell this as a WSO.

      I think this Prospect is seriously interested but doesn't fully understand E-commerce.

      99.99% of SME don't understand the internet, period. They have NO clue.

      The problem here was the "Positioning." YOU did a poor job of Consulting and Educating the Prospect, it's that simple. What the Prospect is saying inside is "I don't believe you."

      Let me tell you my SECRET. When a Prospect 1st contacts me I tell them I need to see them at their Establishment so I can get a feel for their business (even though I know it better than they do). I tell them I will not stay longer than 15 minutes (and I never do). I tell them on the phone while setting the appt that I need 15 minutes of Uninterrupted time. I tell them NO employees, NO phone calls, NO nothing. Just us. (I take CONTROL immediately. I am the BOSS and always will be. What part don't you understand Mr Business owner?)

      When I meet at their place of business I them give a 1-2 minute intro about myself and then I have 10-12 questions that I proceed to ask. I am looking for their monthly budget, what sales are like, what they like/dislike, who makes the decisions, are they Locked into any contracts, what their plans are, etc...

      At the end I hand them a 22 page Beautiful report that is done at Kinkos on glossy paper in a very nice binder. In addition, I enclose a very detailed Questionnaire that will take 30-45 minutes to complete.

      I simply tell them, Mr Business Owner I am in the business of making people MONEY, period! Enclosed is a case study on what I do for other business owners like you and how E-commerce works. There is also a very detailed questionnaire included.

      When you get 20 minutes of secluded time, I'd like you to read this Free Report. If you are interested in what I have to offer, my phone numbers are listed at the bottom (Local & Toll Free). I will not do any follow-up with you whatsoever. You will need to call me. Do you have any additional questions before I leave?

      9 out of 10 biz owners will call you "IF" done properly. I'm very blunt and to the point, business owners know I can make them money. There is no wishie washy with me.

      Do you know that 90% of the WF members don't even have a list themselves? Why should a business owner be any different?

      Hope this helps,

      Mac

      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      I disagree with "moving on".

      It's value perception based on the gap in knowledge.

      That's why my first post in this topic was a question. Do they believe in the effectiveness of offline forms of direct response marketing?

      If they don't, then you have another issue.

      If they do, then you have a common ground to build upon.

      A consultative sale involves identifying those areas of common understanding first, then building upon them.
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      • Profile picture of the author Lance K
        I like your style, MacFreddie.

        I think you could still run a rather successful WSO if you divulge your lead generation process as well as your questionaire and other materials you include in your binder. There seems to be a lot of interest in that topic here at WF recently.
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        ~ Zig Ziglar
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        • Profile picture of the author MacFreddie
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

          I like your style, MacFreddie.

          I think you could still run a rather successful WSO if you divulge your lead generation process as well as your questionaire and other materials you include in your binder. There seems to be a lot of interest in that topic here at WF recently.
          If I do a WSO it will be for Free. There's so much money out there I don't have time to do a WSO. I would actually lose a ton of money doing a WSO. I don't wont to do any Coaching, follow up etc...

          The nice part about Offline is that once you get a dozen clients or so and ask for referrals you're pretty much set. Just follow up with those Original 12 clients, offer a ton of Perceived Value and they will send business your way.

          Hint: It helps if you incorporate group Teleseminars to your existing clients.

          You don't really need much of a Lead system to find 12 clients. Almost ANYTHING you do will work.

          Of course, I have perfected not only getting Prospects, but Positioning myself as "The guy to handle e-commerce."

          It ain't rocket science.

          Hope this helps someone.

          Mac
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    As an offline consultant, you have to learn to deal with these kinds of objections. People always have trusted advisors... the wife, their neighbor, their kid's soccer coach... whatever... And most of the time, the trusted advisor is full of crap. But you can't say that (at least say it and expect to get business).

    His friend may have actually had a bad experience with email marketing, so in the friend's perception, it indeed doesn't work. Perception is reality. Right?

    You don't know the circumstances of that person's bias, so the best thing to do is to ask questions.... of the guy making the claim!

    I literally would tell your client prospect that as a professional, you're incredibly interested in staying on top of all the aspects of your profession, and if someone has an experience that dictates there's a problem with the kind of work you do, you have a vested interest in learning about it. I literally would invite the prospect to a lunch meeting and also ask him to invite his friend, and I would buy for both. Be completely open and honest, and ask the friend to explain their experience with the prospect present at the table.

    If you can get them to agree to this... ABSOLUTELY DO NOT REBUT THE FRIEND IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM AT THIS MEETING.

    You're there to LISTEN.

    And if you do this right, you MIGHT end up with TWO clients out of the deal instead of one.

    Take copious notes.

    Find out why the other deal didn't work.

    Follow back up with your friend a couple days later, explaining that you have some things that you want them to look at.

    Nail your presentation cold hard based on the objections that you learned in the previous conversation.
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    • Profile picture of the author MrYossu
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      As an offline consultant, you have to learn to deal with these kinds of objections. People always have trusted advisors... the wife, their neighbor, their kid's soccer coach... whatever... And most of the time, the trusted advisor is full of crap. But you can't say that (at least say it and expect to get business).
      Actually, I got over this objection fairly easily. I explained that most of his friends had probably been the subjects of successful e-mail marketing and not even realised it. When done well, the recipient feels like they are gaining something very useful, not being the subject of a marketing plan.

      He seemed to accept that point and moved on to the issue of whether or not e-mail marketing is suitable for professional service suppliers, as opposed to only e-commerce sites. That's what I'm trying to answer now. I have had some great ideas here, and am off to do some research!
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      • Profile picture of the author Lance K
        Tell him...

        "I can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bull's ass, but I'd rather take a butcher's word for it." - Tommy Boy

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        "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
        ~ Zig Ziglar
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Silvester
    "81% of businesses plan to increase spending on email marketing." -- Alterian, 2006

    "Email marketing in the US will account for approximately 71,000 jobs in 2006, growing at 8-10% annually." -- DMA, October, 2006

    "Email delivers the highest ROI by an eye-popping margin:a whopping $57.25 for every dollar spent on it in 2005." -- DMA, October, 2006

    "70% of the top retail sites in Google's paid search listings offered email newsletters." -- JupiterResearch, March 2006

    54% of respondents in a consumer survey said they had a more favorable opinion of the companies that send them email. - Epsilon (Oct 2008)

    44% of respondents in a consumer survey said that email from financial services companies make them feel more loyal towards the companies and their products - Epsilon (Oct 2008)

    PM me if you want a heap more
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Michael's short list is spot on and you can find any number of statistics on email marketing simply by doing a Google search.

      One study suggests that every dollar spent on email marketing brings back $51.

      Returns like that are just off the chart when it comes to any form of advertising.


      As someone else mentioned the real issue is probably that you're trying to convince a prospect who is just not worth the effort.

      There are so many buisness owners who would be happy to hire you.

      Be friendly, ask for referrals and move on to your next prospect.

      You can send a print out of different articles and studies on the effectiveness of email marketing to your prospect (one at a time) if you want.

      But again killing yourself trying to convince one prospect is probably a waste of time.

      You have a world full of business owners to talk to.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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      • Profile picture of the author MacFreddie
        Banned
        Originally Posted by MrYossu View Post

        P.S. If anyone would like to show me how to get endless streams of hot prospects ringing me up and begging me to take their money, then please feel free to do so! I would be very happy to be in that position. So far I've had to work for my clients. I'd love to find an easier way, but haven't done so yet. If you have, which would explain why you can afford to drop a prospect to quickly, then please educate me
        Are you doing any Direct Mail?

        Mac
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        • Profile picture of the author Jillian Slack
          @MrYossu - If he haven't bought into it yet, it's something wrong you have done, or something you haven't done.

          This is not always true.

          There will always be some people who just don't get it. No matter how hard you try, they will not understand or they will not let go of their checkbook, no matter how great your presentation is.

          If that statement were true, 100% of your prospects would sign up with you.

          If you are having success with other clients signing up for your services, then obviously you are doing something right.

          If 100% of them are not signing up with you, it's time to revamp your presentation and take a good look to figure out what you are doing wrong and fix it.

          With a client like this one, you will get to a point where you have to weigh the time you have already invested vs. the what you could have been doing with that time, and then move on if the client still does not get it.

          Otherwise, you could spend hours, days, or weeks trying to convince this guy, while you could have had several other people who DO get it signing up with you and moving forward.
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          • Profile picture of the author MrYossu
            Originally Posted by Jillian Slack View Post

            This is not always true.

            There will always be some people who just don't get it. No matter how hard you try, they will not understand or they will not let go of their checkbook, no matter how great your presentation is.

            If that statement were true, 100% of your prospects would sign up with you.

            If you are having success with other clients signing up for your services, then obviously you are doing something right.

            If 100% of them are not signing up with you, it's time to revamp your presentation and take a good look to figure out what you are doing wrong and fix it.
            Finally, someone who understands! I was beginning to think I was on my own here.

            Originally Posted by Jillian Slack View Post

            With a client like this one, you will get to a point where you have to weigh the time you have already invested vs. the what you could have been doing with that time, and then move on if the client still does not get it.

            Otherwise, you could spend hours, days, or weeks trying to convince this guy, while you could have had several other people who DO get it signing up with you and moving forward.
            Quite correct, but as I have mentioned in other replies, my total investment so far has been a 15 minute 'phone conversation, and a few e-mails. Hardly a major investment, and certainly not enough to write him off as not being worth the effort! It may get to the stage where I will give up, but I'm not near that yet. The rewards are sufficient to make each prospect worth a reasonable amount of time and effort.

            Thanks
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          • Profile picture of the author Preben Frenning
            Originally Posted by Jillian Slack View Post

            This is not always true.

            There will always be some people who just don't get it. No matter how hard you try, they will not understand or they will not let go of their checkbook, no matter how great your presentation is.

            If that statement were true, 100% of your prospects would sign up with you.

            If you are having success with other clients signing up for your services, then obviously you are doing something right.

            If 100% of them are not signing up with you, it's time to revamp your presentation and take a good look to figure out what you are doing wrong and fix it.

            With a client like this one, you will get to a point where you have to weigh the time you have already invested vs. the what you could have been doing with that time, and then move on if the client still does not get it.

            Otherwise, you could spend hours, days, or weeks trying to convince this guy, while you could have had several other people who DO get it signing up with you and moving forward.
            I believe everyone has a trigger, and they can be very varied. But I meant in this case, as he was obviously interested at first, but listened to his friends instead. That means he probably doesn't consider you credible enough, or something similar.

            If you give him an offer he can't refuse, well, then he can't refuse
            A moneyback guarantee, free trial etc. gives him nothing to lose. And if you are 100% certian it will make him money, offer to PAY HIM if it doesn't make him money. After he have done what you tell him to to promote the list of course.
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        • Profile picture of the author MrYossu
          Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

          Are you doing any Direct Mail?

          Mac
          Done some, but with little success. I've been mailing stuff, then following up with 'phone calls. Lot of work, less than impressive results.
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          • Profile picture of the author MacFreddie
            Banned
            Originally Posted by MrYossu View Post

            Done some, but with little success. I've been mailing stuff, then following up with 'phone calls. Lot of work, less than impressive results.
            What does "done some" mean?

            How many mailers at one time?

            Was it a Postcard, letter, ...?

            What does the mailer look like?

            Was it a Stamp or Impression?

            What day does it arrive?

            Was it a Sequential campaign?

            What did the copy say? Was there a powerful CTA (call to action), sense of Urgency, Limited offer, etc...? Can you post your mailer?

            What was your response ratio?

            What is your ROI per mailer?

            What was your Modality to respond?

            A good mail campaign is KILLER.

            If you care to elaborate I'll try to help.

            Mac
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            • Profile picture of the author MrYossu
              Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

              What does "done some" mean?
              Two campaigns, one split over two different letters.

              Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

              How many mailers at one time?
              About 100 each time

              Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

              Was it a Postcard, letter, ...?
              The first was a letter, basically David Preston's "cash cow" letter, split test with two different opening lines. The second was Shaun O'Reilly's "client attracting report."

              Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

              What does the mailer look like?
              What do you mean by mailer? Do you mean the envelope? if so, it was a plain envelope, like you'd send a letter in.

              Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

              Was it a Stamp or Impression?
              Stamp - I wanted it to look like a personal letter, which would give it a much higher chance of being opened. All addresses were hand-written for the same reason.

              Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

              What day does it arrive?
              Given the unreliable nature of our postal service, I can't say for sure, but I aimed to have them arrive mid-week.

              Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

              Was it a Sequential campaign?
              Not sure if I understand you right, but in both cases, I sent out the letter/report, then followed up with a telephone call a few days later.

              Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

              What did the copy say? Was there a powerful CTA (call to action), sense of Urgency, Limited offer, etc...? Can you post your mailer?
              If you're familiar with either of the (well known) sources I used for the letter and report, you will know that they both had powerful copy with a strong call to action. I didn't write them, so I can say that without being biased!

              Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

              What was your response ratio?
              First campaign (David Preston's letter) got one positive response out of 100 letters. They were very excited and wanted to go ahead, but were waiting for their web guy to finish their new web site. I'm still waiting! They tell me they still want to go ahead, but that they aren't ready yet. I have no doubts about their sincerity and intentions, but I don't know if they will ever get around to it.

              The second campaign got one person very interested, but as they are moving shop this month, they don't want to commit to any expense until that's done. I have a note to ring them back in a few weeks. They are keen, and understand the power of what I've offered. They just need to make sure they can justify the initial investment until the extra sales start rolling in. One other person agreed to a telephone consultation following this campaign, but when I rang back at the agreed time, she was busy and said she would get back to me. I'm going to follow that one up today.

              So, out of about 200 attempts, I have one client who intends to go ahead, but is stalling, another who intends to go ahead assuming the money is in place after they move shop, and one who is interested in finding out more - assuming I can get her on the 'phone long enough (not local enough to go and speak to her in person).

              Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

              What is your ROI per mailer?
              The mailings weren't hugely expensive. Even the report, which was 8 pages long and printed in colour only cost around 60p (about $1 I think) each by the time you factor in the envelope, stamp, etc. Given that one client is worth around 1800 GBP (around $2700) per year, PLUS any one-off stuff, like a new web site or some optimisation, then the ROI is good - if I can get anyone to move!

              Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

              What was your Modality to respond?
              Sorry, lost me there! What do you mean?

              Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

              A good mail campaign is KILLER.
              So I'm told, but my initial attempts have been more dead than a killer! I'm sure it's good if you can get it working. I used material and methods from two people who claim to have done this many times and optimised the stuff to work.

              Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

              If you care to elaborate I'll try to help.
              I appreciate the help. I hope my answers above will enable you to get more of an idea.

              Thanks very much.
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    • Profile picture of the author MrYossu
      Originally Posted by Michael Silvester View Post

      "81% of businesses plan to increase spending on email marketing." -- Alterian, 2006

      "Email marketing in the US will account for approximately 71,000 jobs in 2006, growing at 8-10% annually." -- DMA, October, 2006

      "Email delivers the highest ROI by an eye-popping margin:a whopping $57.25 for every dollar spent on it in 2005." -- DMA, October, 2006

      "70% of the top retail sites in Google's paid search listings offered email newsletters." -- JupiterResearch, March 2006

      54% of respondents in a consumer survey said they had a more favorable opinion of the companies that send them email. - Epsilon (Oct 2008)

      44% of respondents in a consumer survey said that email from financial services companies make them feel more loyal towards the companies and their products - Epsilon (Oct 2008)

      PM me if you want a heap more
      Thanks for those, they are brilliant. I'll PM you right now.

      Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh View Post

      As someone else mentioned the real issue is probably that you're trying to convince a prospect who is just not worth the effort.
      How do you know he's not worth the effort?

      Not trying to be rude, or criticise anyone here, but I'm amazed at the amount of negative comments this thread has raised. If I were to follow the line of reasoning put forward here, I would give up at the prospect's slightest sign of anything other than delight, and would never get a customer.

      I don't see what's so bad about discussing the issues with a customer. I'm glad he's asking intelligent questions, and feel confident that if he does decide to take up the offer, he'll be doing it from an informed position, and will make a better customer. If he doesn't take up the offer, he will have helped me understand my prospects' point of view a lot better, and will have enabled me to present my case better next time. Either way, that's a worthwhile investment of my time.

      I agree that there comes a point when it's not worth continuing, but my discussions with him have so far entailed a 15 minute 'phone call, and several e-mails. Hardly a huge investment of my time, and certainly not enough to justify labelling him as a waste of time.

      This isn't directed at you Andrew, but is a general comment on the nature of many of the replies. I don't understand how anyone gets any business with such an attitude of giving up so easily.

      Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh View Post

      There are so many buisness owners who would be happy to hire you.
      Sure there are, and many of them will have reasonable questions before they say yes. Do I give up as soon as they ask a challenging question?

      Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh View Post

      Be friendly, ask for referrals and move on to your next prospect.
      And what will I do with those referrals? Give up at the first question as well? I'll spend a long time getting nowhere at that rate.

      Again, this isn't a flame, and certainly not against you personally Andrew. I've learnt a lot from you and respect you. I'm just amazed at the ease with which I'm supposed to give up on a client who asked two perfectly justifiable questions.

      I would be interested in positive comments on this. If anyone takes offence at my words, then please accept my pre-emptive apology and move along. I didn't make the comments to upset anyone, and do not wish to argue with anyone. I'd just like to know why (almost) everyone is so quick to drop prospects. Maybe you all have to suffer the ordeal of prospects ringing you night and day, begging you to take their money. I don't. I'm not at that stage yet, and am quite happy to put in a little effort to get a client.

      Ta ra

      P.S. If anyone would like to show me how to get endless streams of hot prospects ringing me up and begging me to take their money, then please feel free to do so! I would be very happy to be in that position. So far I've had to work for my clients. I'd love to find an easier way, but haven't done so yet. If you have, which would explain why you can afford to drop a prospect to quickly, then please educate me

      Originally Posted by Vince Runza Online View Post

      Show your prospect this: Why do email marketing?
      Vince, if I could hit the "Thanks" button multiple times, I would! That was not only spot on for this client, but a gem of a site altogether.

      Thanks very much

      Originally Posted by TimCastleman View Post

      Chasing after a single customer/love interest/job/ etc is foolish and frankly it comes off as desperate. And clients smell that like a bottle of cheap cologne.
      Maybe this is where I'm playing a different CD from you all.

      When did I say I was chasing a single client? When did I even say I was chasing him?

      I have been discussing marketing with a prospect, amongst other prospects, and have been answering his questions. I am not devoting my entire life to this, nor even a significant amount of it. So far, I have had a 15 minute 'phone conversation and some e-mails. As he's in a different country, it's not practical to sit down with him. I've actually spent a lot more time in this single thread than I have with him!

      I agree that you shouldn't devote your life to chasing one prospect, but going to the opposite extreme and dropping one at the first question seems just as illogical to me.

      Ta ra

      Originally Posted by Kevin_Hutto View Post

      Tim,
      I agree with you about the sales side of things. And I think that the OP should probably move on.
      No disrespect intended, but you seem to be basing this suggestion on very little knowledge of the situation. Please read my previous replies and see if you still think I should move on. If you do, I would like to know how you ever stick out a conversation long enough to win a client.

      Again, no disrespect or offence intended. I'm just surprised at how easily people seem to give up.

      Originally Posted by Kevin_Hutto View Post

      But... my original comment was pointing out the fact that if he has to come to the warrior forum to acquire a lucid argument for email marketing then maybe he isn't ready to hold himself out as a professional consultant.
      Well, maybe you read my original post differently, but that wasn't what I asked.

      I am already very familiar with e-mail marketing, and have no problem explaining its benefits to prospects. I came asking specifically for some references that it works for professional services, as opposed to e-commerce.

      My personal experience so far has been more with small shops, and the prospect asked for evidence that the ideas would be applicable to his business as well. I asked if anyone had support that I could show him. That's a very different question from looking for arguments for e-mail marketing overall.

      Originally Posted by Kevin_Hutto View Post

      I dont know the OP and am not accusing him of that at all. My point was and still is: Dont just learn the "tricks of the trade"... Learn the trade.
      I know the trade well enough to benefit my customers. I have been doing e-mail marketing for some years, although not for offline customers for all of that time. I don't claim to be a guru, but I certainly know enough to bring genuine value to many offline businesses. I'm just trying to expand my horizons.

      I hope this clarifies matters.

      Originally Posted by brunski57 View Post

      The problem is he Does Not Trust You... you are TOO young, just a kid.

      Judging from your picture you look about 7-8 years old.

      I afraid you'll just have to wait another 10 years or so.
      Hee hee, that picture was taken about 40 years ago! I used it because it looks more pleasant than one of a fat and hairy middle-aged man!
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  • Profile picture of the author ShelbyC
    Skip the email marketing and sell him what he really wants.

    Goes back to the Gary Halbert story of the starving crowd.

    All these guys have offered great advice from their years of experience, pick what you like and do it. "You don't have to get it right, you just have to get it moving."

    If you need help generating leads I suggest you pick up Kyle Tully's Consulting Tycoon if it's still available.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimCastleman
      Not exactly.

      There's this thing called liability. And all a client has to do is prove that you really didn't know WTF you were talking about, and you'll be putting his great grandchildren through college.

      Business owners actually joke about idiots who play office as professional consultants.

      Selling your expertise when there is none is a sure fire path to the defense attorney's office.
      Sorry Mike but I'm not going to live my life in fear and wait for someone else to ordain me. If I waited for someone else to bless me I would of missed out on so many things ...

      1. Feed 6,000 people in 7 days during the largest ice storm in OK history. Didn't wait for someone to ask, I took charge and ran the thing. Oh and I was 22.

      2. Announced at a Dallas Stars hockey game. Again they didn't ask, I just put myself in a position to do it. Oh and I've never had an hour of professional training in my life.

      3. Hypnotized over 10,000 people in my lifetime, again - self directed.

      Enjoy the sidelines, I want in the game.

      Also people use learning as an excuse for doing something. You aren't doing crap until you're selling and taking action.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dave Z
        Originally Posted by TimCastleman View Post

        Sorry Mike but I'm not going to live my life in fear and wait for someone else to ordain me. If I waited for someone else to bless me I would of missed out on so many things ...

        1. Feed 6,000 people in 7 days during the largest ice storm in OK history. Didn't wait for someone to ask, I took charge and ran the thing. Oh and I was 22.

        2. Announced at a Dallas Stars hockey game. Again they didn't ask, I just put myself in a position to do it. Oh and I've never had an hour of professional training in my life.

        3. Hypnotized over 10,000 people in my lifetime, again - self directed.

        Enjoy the sidelines, I want in the game.

        Also people use learning as an excuse for doing something. You aren't doing crap until you're selling and taking action.
        I love this statment
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      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
        Originally Posted by TimCastleman View Post

        Sorry Mike but I'm not going to live my life in fear and wait for someone else to ordain me. If I waited for someone else to bless me I would of missed out on so many things ...

        1. Feed 6,000 people in 7 days during the largest ice storm in OK history. Didn't wait for someone to ask, I took charge and ran the thing. Oh and I was 22.

        2. Announced at a Dallas Stars hockey game. Again they didn't ask, I just put myself in a position to do it. Oh and I've never had an hour of professional training in my life.

        3. Hypnotized over 10,000 people in my lifetime, again - self directed.

        Enjoy the sidelines, I want in the game.

        Also people use learning as an excuse for doing something. You aren't doing crap until you're selling and taking action.
        I agree with you in that sense, but you're now talking about apples & oranges. Selling and taking action is indeed where the money is at. But there are far, far too many schlock operators who adopt the "just sell em' something" philosophy, and when it comes to these guys in the consulting business - they're long on sales copy and quite short of ability to deliver.

        Being motivated to action and wanting in the game is great! Yes, it's a phenomenal desire and should be applauded.

        But being in a hurry to do a heart transplant when someone is still in first year chemistry and basic anatomy is the issue that was previously being raised. Your advice to that guy, who is one or two classes ahead of someone not even enrolled, is that he should hang out a sign and start doing surgery because he is so motivated to be a surgeon.

        Sell em' somethin'!!
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        • Profile picture of the author bethrobinson
          There are loads of resources on email marketing that are directed towards corporate marketers promoting B2B and professional services.

          You might be able to find more information at
          Marketing Sherpa
          Marketprofs
          and in the context of a newsletter/content marketing - Junta 42.

          There are case studies out there for all types of businesses.
          I wish I could be more specific, but while I've been reading them I haven't
          been bookmarking them.

          Beth
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          • Profile picture of the author TimCastleman
            But being in a hurry to do a heart transplant when someone is still in first year chemistry and basic anatomy is the issue that was previously being raised. Your advice to that guy, who is one or two classes ahead of someone not even enrolled, is that he should hang out a sign and start doing surgery because he is so motivated to be a surgeon.
            I am talking about offline marketing and you are comparing it to heart surgery. Now who is comparing apples to oranges? At any rate ... and to the heart (pun intended) of the matter.

            Stop chasing dead fish.

            Seriously, stop it. As Dan Kennedy says unzip your pants and make sure you still have a pair. Chasing after a single customer/love interest/job/ etc is foolish and frankly it comes off as desperate. And clients smell that like a bottle of cheap cologne.

            True story time.

            After my first marriage went the way of the Titanic I had to get out there dating again. Man I sucked at it, but I kept at it and about a month or two after I started I was going on 3-4 different dates. There is nothing more brass balls then telling a women - hey I'd love to call you some time but I have 3 more dates this week so why don't you call me.

            Guess what - they did, they actually called me to go on a second date. Why? Because I was a desperate guy waiting by the phone to call them 10 times a day. I had my crap together and I was going places.

            The women I married (the second and final time) ... called me to go out on the second date.

            My point is be the one who is chased, not the one doing the chasing.

            When there is only one "fish" in the sea you better catch it or die but if you understand that there are a million women/fish/etc out there when you don't catch one then you can just throw your pole back in the water.

            Tim
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            • Profile picture of the author myob
              Here's another true story. I never used to go to any particular car repair shop whenever I needed work done. Whenever I needed services, I just picked one from the local yellow pages. This all changed when I just went to have an oil change two years ago. This mechanic had a space on the service form to add your email for a free oil change on your next visit. Well, guess what - I signed up and three months later received his reminder by email it was time for an oil change. And I got that oil change for free. He still regularly sends emails about other timely maintence such as wheel rotating, chassis lube, air conditioning service, radiator flush, timing belt, and dozens of other services and specials. I have never gone anywhere else since then. Does email work for an offline business? You bet it does!
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              “If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants.” – Isaac Newton
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              • Profile picture of the author brunski57
                The problem is he Does Not Trust You... you are TOO young, just a kid.

                Judging from your picture you look about 7-8 years old.

                I afraid you'll just have to wait another 10 years or so.
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                • Profile picture of the author Jillian Slack
                  Fabulous advice here.

                  Another thing to consider. Let's say you have given this prospect your best shot at educating him on why he needs your services and he STILL isn't getting it.

                  Get him signed up on YOUR newsletter and then he will be reminded of you often.

                  He will see your clients' success stories in your newsletter.

                  He will see the news that you have found related to online marketing and included in your newsletter.

                  Eventually he will realize what he is missing out on, but if he doesn't ever come around, find a different client in that same industry. You won't get 100% of them. Just don't let it get to the point where you have invested so much time and energy in this guy that you could have been convincing and signing up 10 or 20 others.
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                • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                  Originally Posted by TimCastleman View Post

                  Remember those 4 NFL players that died off the coast of Florida last year? Turns out it was over a $200 anchor that the boat owner didn't want to cut loose. $200 = 3 lives because he wanted to hang on to the anchor.
                  There's more to the story.

                  The boat owner had already lost one anchor earlier - in the same spot. When this anchor lodged in the rocks, the boat owner took a suggestion from an incompetent adviser.

                  The adviser suggested that they could get a better pull on the line by moving the rope from the bow to the stern. The result was that, rather than simply taking on water because of rough seas, the boat's stern was dragged into the water and the boat flipped. Three lives lost and one likely permanently damaged.

                  Why?

                  The boat owner took advice from someone not competent to give that advice, and neither knew enough to realize what might happen.

                  Changing gears...

                  Yossu, gaining value from building a list doesn't always mean direct sales.

                  Your professional could gain a lot of value by getting prospective customers, clients, whatever into an email series that answered the basic questions that almost every client might have. This would free the professional and his staff to pursue tasks with more immediate value.

                  As an example, my ophthalmologist combines his website and email to guide potential patients through the process of working with his practice, what to expect, pros and cons of various procedures, etc.

                  Patients can even download PDF versions of the forms they fill out to become patients. I appreciated it, and I overheard others mentioning that it was much more convenient to fill out the forms at home, in comfort, rather than trying to balance a clipboard on their knee in the waiting room.

                  I asked the doc, and he said that little service alone saves him several hours per week. Multiply that by the average staff salary, and you have a value that is in addition to any direct sales.
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                  • Profile picture of the author MrYossu
                    Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                    Yossu, gaining value from building a list doesn't always mean direct sales.

                    Your professional could gain a lot of value by getting prospective customers, clients, whatever into an email series that answered the basic questions that almost every client might have. This would free the professional and his staff to pursue tasks with more immediate value.
                    Excellent point, thanks very much for that.
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            • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
              Originally Posted by TimCastleman View Post

              I am talking about offline marketing and you are comparing it to heart surgery. Now who is comparing apples to oranges? At any rate ... and to the heart (pun intended) of the matter.

              Stop chasing dead fish.

              Seriously, stop it. As Dan Kennedy says unzip your pants and make sure you still have a pair. Chasing after a single customer/love interest/job/ etc is foolish and frankly it comes off as desperate. And clients smell that like a bottle of cheap cologne.

              True story time.

              After my first marriage went the way of the Titanic I had to get out there dating again. Man I sucked at it, but I kept at it and about a month or two after I started I was going on 3-4 different dates. There is nothing more brass balls then telling a women - hey I'd love to call you some time but I have 3 more dates this week so why don't you call me.

              Guess what - they did, they actually called me to go on a second date. Why? Because I was a desperate guy waiting by the phone to call them 10 times a day. I had my crap together and I was going places.

              The women I married (the second and final time) ... called me to go out on the second date.

              My point is be the one who is chased, not the one doing the chasing.

              When there is only one "fish" in the sea you better catch it or die but if you understand that there are a million women/fish/etc out there when you don't catch one then you can just throw your pole back in the water.

              Tim
              I'm still not disagreeing with you.

              The point about the surgeon was to illustrate the level of asinine thinking by rank amateurs who might have a lot of cajones in their sacks, but still need to learn a little before actually running down the road, advising people about something almost as serious as a heart transplant - how to run their business.

              As MacFreddie indicated and I can also reflect my own observations, I've seen businesses that have literally been devastated because they put faith into a consultant who had a lot of brass, and sold the owner into some consulting engagement - only to fail at cramming to learn on the job and make good recommendations in direction. They were subsequently sued and proved to be a fraud for having sold themselves as something that they weren't.

              And that is something that I highly doubt Dan Kennedy would recommend that anyone do.
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    Originally Posted by Craig Desorcy View Post

    This works like crazy...

    Site down Mr. Client and lets have a cup of coffee while I mail one
    of my lists an offer. By the time we are finished with our coffee,
    the orders should start rolling in.

    Got to love real time proof :-)


    Craig
    ^^ This is what I was talking about....

    I literally do this in front of an audience at small local business meetings....

    The response is always killer..

    There is NOTHING and I mean NOTHING that gets the attention of business owners like seeing it in direct action.

    Take your laptop.. and your Aweber login details and show them it works. The niche doesn't matter.

    Peace

    Jay

    p.s. Be VERY careful with this... I've dropped the ball once trying this one.
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  • Profile picture of the author Seattle Mike
    Ask him if he would like to be able to contact all his customers at any time with a special offer? Without sending out a letter or advertising. The power of Email Marketing.
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  • Show your prospect this: Why do email marketing?
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  • Profile picture of the author Kevin_Hutto
    Tim,
    I agree with you about the sales side of things. And I think that the OP should probably move on.

    But... my original comment was pointing out the fact that if he has to come to the warrior forum to acquire a lucid argument for email marketing then maybe he isn't ready to hold himself out as a professional consultant.

    My comment about 10,000 hours is a reference to Malcolm Gladwell's book "Outliers" where he puts forth that it takes 10,000 hours of hard work to become a superstar in your profession. I have found that to be pretty accurate. I'm not merely talking about reading forums or ebooks or studying. I am talking about putting in your time doing the work.

    The point of that is there are many industries where "hacks" armed with more zeal than knowledge carve a wide swath of destruction to the reputation of the group as a whole. I have worked in SEO for several years and consulted many fortune 2000 companies on their SEM strategy and I have seen more and more of this in the last year. There are guys who are doing little more than ripping people off because the client doesnt know better.

    I dont know the OP and am not accusing him of that at all. My point was and still is: Dont just learn the "tricks of the trade"... Learn the trade.
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    • Profile picture of the author George Wright
      If you want to be a superstar then produce amazing results for a customer. Amazing to who? To the customer, of course.

      No more no less.

      You can produce amazing results with about 1/2 hours of research/training in many different online/offline subjects.

      George Wright

      Originally Posted by Kevin_Hutto View Post

      Tim,
      I agree with you about the sales side of things. And I think that the OP should probably move on.

      But... my original comment was pointing out the fact that if he has to come to the warrior forum to acquire a lucid argument for email marketing then maybe he isn't ready to hold himself out as a professional consultant.

      My comment about 10,000 hours is a reference to Malcolm Gladwell's book "Outliers" where he puts forth that it takes 10,000 hours of hard work to become a superstar in your profession. I have found that to be pretty accurate. I'm not merely talking about reading forums or ebooks or studying. I am talking about putting in your time doing the work.

      The point of that is there are many industries where "hacks" armed with more zeal than knowledge carve a wide swath of destruction to the reputation of the group as a whole. I have worked in SEO for several years and consulted many fortune 2000 companies on their SEM strategy and I have seen more and more of this in the last year. There are guys who are doing little more than ripping people off because the client doesnt know better.

      I dont know the OP and am not accusing him of that at all. My point was and still is: Dont just learn the "tricks of the trade"... Learn the trade.
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  • Profile picture of the author Preben Frenning
    @MrYossu - If he haven't bought into it yet, it's something wrong you have done, or something you haven't done.

    You could always give him 1 month for free, and show him why it works. Regardless of how many subscribers you are able to get him, remind him that those are potential customers, and they WANT to get emails from him, as well as offers. - Make him realize he would be an idiot if he doesn't continue to build his list, without telling him directly.

    You can do this by asking the right questions, and make him talk himself into it.

    As for proof that it works, show him ANY very successful business with a website. You can be 99.9% certain that they have some kind of opt-in form on their website. Why? - Because it works.

    Also, watch your language. You know internet marketing and all of the terms, while it might not make sense to him at all. Don't use words like "autoresponder" etc. Especially not "pop-up", as he will most likely have a very negative attitude towards it.


    And you mentioned he had talked with other business owners about it, and they didn't think it would work. Well, if you make it work for him, you will immediately have several new clients. He will definitely talk about it to them, if he defies their advice, and have great success with it. It makes him look good, and they trust him too, meaning easy sales for you. He will take care of all the selling, and you will just need pick up your checks, and make lists for them.

    Andrew Cavanaugh mentioned earlier in a post I made, that referrals are the easiest kind of customers you will ever have, and it's true. In many cases, you can even tell them you're not sure if you will be able to do much for them, but they won't care. - They want YOU to work with them.

    I seriously see a great opportunity to get lots of referrals here. Try to get in contact with any of the people he had talked with, and make them a customer, and you will get the other ones too. It shouldn't be that hard if you're decent at selling. After all, they have no idea what they are talking about, regarding lists not being effective. Shouldn't be too hard with the tips you have got in this thread.

    As for positioning yourself as an authority, it makes business more fun, as well as it will boost your income. Taking control is probably one of the best things about sales, and a good number 2. after getting the sale itself.

    This thread is golden, and I will keep checking back. Thanks for sharing so much guys!

    And the best of luck to you MrYossu =)
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    • Profile picture of the author MrYossu
      Hello,

      Originally Posted by Preben Frenning View Post

      As for proof that it works, show him ANY very successful business with a website. You can be 99.9% certain that they have some kind of opt-in form on their website. Why? - Because it works.
      I don't think he's question the basic idea of e-mail marketing, just whether it will work for professional services, as opposed to e-commerce sites.

      Originally Posted by Preben Frenning View Post

      And you mentioned he had talked with other business owners about it, and they didn't think it would work.
      Actually, he said he had asked some friends about it. Don't think they were business owners at all.

      However, your points about referrals are very valid.

      Originally Posted by Preben Frenning View Post

      And the best of luck to you MrYossu =)
      Thanks, and the same to you
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  • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
    If you have a list and you been promoting affiliate programs to them and had success then you can show him you clickbank or paypal account pictures.

    Still make sure that nothing is on you by telling him that you don't take responsibility of the results.

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  • Profile picture of the author Preben Frenning
    Oh, another thing!
    This have worked extremely well for me in the past, and I'm sure it can help you too.

    Talk about all the different things he can do with a list,using spesific examples to his company.
    Is customerflow seasonbased? (For example, some companies might have lots of work to do in the summer, and nothing to do in the automn. Tell them you can increase customer flow at those times, as you can email a discount to the list etc.)

    Using specific examples like that can really make business owners think for themselves, and fire them up a bit.
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  • Profile picture of the author CarolRoss
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    • Profile picture of the author Ross Bowring
      If he doesn't see the value of e-mail marketing already I'd probably cut him loose...

      BUT if you want to give it a shot, you could just ask him if he's ever bought anything through e-mail marketing before. If he says "no" then you walk away. If he says he has then ask him what made him buy? Whatever his answer... you tell him you can build him an e-mail marketing campaign just like the one he bought from.
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      • Profile picture of the author MrYossu
        Originally Posted by Ross77 View Post

        If he doesn't see the value of e-mail marketing already I'd probably cut him loose...

        BUT if you want to give it a shot, you could just ask him if he's ever bought anything through e-mail marketing before. If he says "no" then you walk away. If he says he has then ask him what made him buy? Whatever his answer... you tell him you can build him an e-mail marketing campaign just like the one he bought from.
        If you read my previous replies, you'll see that I explained that he is quite convinced that it works for e-commerce and the like. He was just not convinced it would work for professional service providers.

        I have e-mailed him some info, based on some of the comments I got here, and will wait and see what he says.
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          So, out of about 200 attempts, I have one client who intends to go ahead, but is stalling, another who intends to go ahead assuming the money is in place after they move shop, and one who is interested in finding out more - assuming I can get her on the 'phone long enough (not local enough to go and speak to her in person).
          It might sound picky, but there's a definite distinction. At this point, you don't have any clients out of your 200 attempts. You have two serious prospects and one lukewarm prospect.

          Once you have a solid agreement, backed by a deposit you can actually deposit, you have clients.

          Back when I actively worked in retail, I used to watch salespeople counting their sales and mentally spending their commissions on the same kind of "be-backs". Once they accepted that many of those be-backs wouldn't really be back, they experienced a subtle shift in attitude that resulted in more signed orders and cash sales.
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          • Profile picture of the author MrYossu
            Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

            It might sound picky, but there's a definite distinction. At this point, you don't have any clients out of your 200 attempts. You have two serious prospects and one lukewarm prospect.

            Once you have a solid agreement, backed by a deposit you can actually deposit, you have clients.

            Back when I actively worked in retail, I used to watch salespeople counting their sales and mentally spending their commissions on the same kind of "be-backs". Once they accepted that many of those be-backs wouldn't really be back, they experienced a subtle shift in attitude that resulted in more signed orders and cash sales.
            You're right, and I realised the typo (which is what it was) when I read the posted reply. I just couldn't be bothered going back and editing it!

            I'm not counting my chickens before they're hatched. Thanks for the reply.
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  • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
    Banned
    Tell him to hire his friends to make his business better if they know so much.
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  • Profile picture of the author SageSound
    Let me ask you something ...

    If you were selling cars, and you tried to sell a car to a guy who CLEARLY wanted to buy one, but it has a diesel engine in it, and his friends all tell him to avoid diesels, what are you going to do?

    There used to be a time when diesel fuel was 30%-40% cheaper than regular gasoline, and then you could sell cars based on the type of fuel they consumed.

    Today, hybrids and electrics are a great example. In a few years, we're supposed to believe that hydrogen fuel-cells will be all the rage.

    Now, I could go on for quite a while discussing the type of fuel that vehicles use, but ... are we talking about FUEL or CARS here?

    Your client wants MORE BUSINESS, right?

    Why are you getting bogged down in a debate about one specific MECHANISM?

    "I'll increase your traffic/sales/profits by xx% in yy days, guaranteed."

    Don't address the HOW part! That's YOUR business.

    You say your client is a "professional". Clearly, he's not in the Marketing field. So, why are you arguing with him about marketing methods? If he's an accountant, say something like, "My friend said Corporations are dangerous today, and that LLCs are much safer. So what advice would you have for me in setting up an LLC?" He'll probably try to tell you that each one has its pluses and minuses and they depend on your situation. Which is a fair response to his objection about email marketing vs. other means of contacting customers (of which there are many).

    You really want to focus on the BENEFITS, and not the MEANS.

    -David
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  • Profile picture of the author robvegas626
    I think building a list and setting up an email autoresponder is only worth doing if the messages can contain some type of useful content -- such as a "tip of the week" or whatever. If you're just sending out sales offers over and over again, then it's no better than spam. It's been said that with email marketing, it takes the typical customer seven "exposures" to your product/offer before they decide to take action. So, you'd better give them reasons to read at least six of your emails. If you're just sending them "buy this now!!" links, they won't read past the first one.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dave Ryan
    I'm not going to do the leg work for you... But you can get all sorts of detailed stats on the effectiveness from many well known organizations and use them as solid stats for presenting to clients. Let's see... perhaps the Direct Marketing Association? The government? these types of organizations have the ability to produce mind blowing stats... and they have. This allows you to market your services with very detailed information for the client while at the same time using proof from a source that the know. It's a win-win-win. You get a better pitch, your business grows and you help others grow their business. Everyone makes more money! That's the beauty of good B2B sales.

    Dave
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  • Profile picture of the author HiTom
    This thread is excellent. Great advices, thanks to all.

    As some others have said, I think providing case studies, even from some of your online clients (testimonials ?) should be something to do.

    Or offer a free test drive for the first two weeks or first month, or just as we often see online : a money back guarantee.
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  • Profile picture of the author docsulo
    I don't think he's question the basic idea of e-mail marketing, just whether it will work for professional services, as opposed to e-commerce sites.
    This is an objection that should have been handled earlier in the process.

    Study Dan Kennedy in his Magnetic Marketing presentation for some good take-aways on how to address this in a conversational manner in your area of consulting (to more than one niche).

    Or better yet...

    Focus on one niche - ie - attorneys, MDs etc. and become an expert with LOTS OF PROOF of results in that niche.

    This is more profitable in the long run and opens up possibilities of licensing proven campaigns, content, etc.
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    • Profile picture of the author Glenn Leader
      Originally Posted by docsulo View Post

      This is an objection that should have been handled earlier in the process.

      Study Dan Kennedy in his Magnetic Marketing presentation for some good take-aways on how to address this in a conversational manner in your area of consulting (to more than one niche).

      Or better yet...

      Focus on one niche - ie - attorneys, MDs etc. and become an expert with LOTS OF PROOF of results in that niche.

      This is more profitable in the long run and opens up possibilities of licensing proven campaigns, content, etc.
      Spot on. Concentrate on one vertical market at a time.
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    • Profile picture of the author MrYossu
      Originally Posted by docsulo View Post

      This is an objection that should have been handled earlier in the process.
      I would have, if I had anticipated it.

      Originally Posted by docsulo View Post

      Study Dan Kennedy in his Magnetic Marketing presentation for some good take-aways on how to address this in a conversational manner in your area of consulting (to more than one niche).

      Or better yet...

      Focus on one niche - ie - attorneys, MDs etc. and become an expert with LOTS OF PROOF of results in that niche.

      This is more profitable in the long run and opens up possibilities of licensing proven campaigns, content, etc.
      Well, you still have to get your first client in that niche, which brings us right back here again.

      Also, I didn't approach this one. He followed a link on another site I wrote, entered his name and e-mail into my opt-in form and read my e-mails.

      No, he didn't spot the irony either! He contacted me - a professional service provider - after reading my e-mails, and then suggested that e-mail marketing doesn't work for professional service providers

      I'll be interested to see what he comes back with on that one.
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      • Profile picture of the author docsulo
        Originally Posted by MrYossu View Post

        I would have, if I had anticipated it.
        All the more reason to be prepared in the future. While you're trying to close this potential client take note of the things that are going wrong and what can be done to fix them. Focusing entirely on this particular close will not move your business or your skills forward.

        You may want to make a list of possible objections.

        "That won't work in my business" will be your biggest one if you work in multiple niches.

        Originally Posted by MrYossu View Post

        Well, you still have to get your first client in that niche, which brings us right back here again
        Lot's of ways to go about that. Think creatively. Take away the risk of working with you - a consultant with no proof of results in their niche.

        Fighting someone's beliefs head on is a recipe for failure.

        Your potential client either:

        a. Doesn't believe that e-mail marketing will work for him in his particular business
        b. Doesn't believe you

        If these are beliefs he has consciously or un-consciously, then everything you say or do from this point on will be filtered through those beliefs. Those beliefs will modulate every word from your mouth.

        This is why many on this thread have suggested that you move on.

        I am assuming (maybe incorrectly) that you don't have many other prospects to speak to - in which case practicing with this one is fine. However, you must give the prospect room to change their beliefs on their own - and this will require massive risk reversal and subsequent proof of performance.
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        • Profile picture of the author MrYossu
          Originally Posted by docsulo View Post

          All the more reason to be prepared in the future. While you're trying to close this potential client take note of the things that are going wrong and what can be done to fix them. Focusing entirely on this particular close will not move your business or your skills forward.
          Although I never really made much in IM, one thing I really picked up on was to learn from my mistakes. I'm certainly viewing each conversation with any prospect as a learning exercise, irrespective of the result.

          Originally Posted by docsulo View Post

          You may want to make a list of possible objections.

          "That won't work in my business" will be your biggest one if you work in multiple niches.

          Lot's of ways to go about that. Think creatively. Take away the risk of working with you - a consultant with no proof of results in their niche.

          Fighting someone's beliefs head on is a recipe for failure.
          Generally, I've not come across this objection. The way I've been putting the idea across to people is based in their own niche, and no-one has ever suggested this before.

          Originally Posted by docsulo View Post

          Your potential client either:

          a. Doesn't believe that e-mail marketing will work for him in his particular business
          b. Doesn't believe you
          Well, I'm not sure how firm those beliefs are. Remember, we only had a 15 minute conversation, which isn't really enough to substantiate the ideas. After that he mentioned it to a few friends who put him off the idea.

          I answered his first objection, and he moved onto another. I have presented him with evidence that this is also not an objection. I am waiting to see how he reacts to this one.

          From my brief knowledge of him, I get the impression that he's quite prepared to change his mind if he sees reasonable evidence. I've given him some fairly strong arguments that it will work for him, so we'll see what he says.

          He may still decide it's not for him, in which case I've not lost a great deal of time or effort, but have learnt a lot about talking to prospects. It would be nice to expect to win over every prospect, but it's hardly realistic, so I'm not going to cry myself to sleep over it!

          Originally Posted by docsulo View Post

          If these are beliefs he has consciously or un-consciously, then everything you say or do from this point on will be filtered through those beliefs. Those beliefs will modulate every word from your mouth.

          This is why many on this thread have suggested that you move on.
          Could be, but in my humble opinion, the suggestors have been far to keen to drop a prospect at the first sign of objection. I don't see the problem in discussing issues, presenting information and allowing him to think about the ideas.

          Originally Posted by docsulo View Post

          I am assuming (maybe incorrectly) that you don't have many other prospects to speak to - in which case practicing with this one is fine. However, you must give the prospect room to change their beliefs on their own - and this will require massive risk reversal and subsequent proof of performance.
          I'm not pushing him at all. I've provided him with some information, and am sitting back and waiting for him to make the next move. I may follow up if he doesn't come back to me, but I'm not going to do it too quickly. I have other things I want to try.

          Thanks
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