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INCOME CLAIMS...Do That Many Warriors Really NOT Get It?

by Lance K
71 replies
I just took a quick look through the Classified & WSO sections and all I can say is...WOW!

I'd never really noticed all the offers that contain "I make $blah per blah AND YOU CAN TO" or something to that effect.

Do people really not know that the "you can too" and "I'll show you how you can" etc. comments are...

BIG NO-NOS

???
#claimsdo #income #warriors
  • Profile picture of the author Kevin_Hutto
    thats right... ask frank kern about that...
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    • Profile picture of the author Robyn8243
      Lance:

      I think the answer to your question is a resounding NO!!!

      Most people are totally clueless about the very serious legal ramifications of
      making income claims and other questionable marketing tactics.

      Until legal actions like the ones mentioned elsewhere today become common,
      (Oprah and Dr. Oz...and Illinois Attorney General versus affiliate and others pushing impossible to cancel free trials)
      a lot of people will continue to take actions that can get them in serious legal
      trouble.

      Many of those making income claims are probably lying, so whatever consequences come their way are probably deserved....however, I think many miss the fact that even truthful income claims can get you in trouble.

      Robyn
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  • Profile picture of the author Ashley Wright
    I like that Lance,
    Making claims can only get you into trouble!
    The thing is what I do with my products and services is.....

    If there not happy money back guarentee..
    This product/opportunity does not work for everyone!

    It is not worth all the hastle in my eyes!
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  • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
    In what respect or sense are you saying they are big no-nos?
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Originally Posted by Nick Brighton View Post

      In what respect or sense are you saying they are big no-nos?
      I'd ask an attorney.
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      "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
      ~ Zig Ziglar
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  • Profile picture of the author Mukul Verma
    I make big bucks and you can to buying my product

    If someone has to say that, then I wonder if they make the money on selling that line on there niche....
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    • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
      Originally Posted by Mukul Verma View Post

      I make big bucks and you can to buying my product

      If someone has to say that, then I wonder if they make the money on selling that line on there niche....
      Equally, if someone can get "a Million views", why do they need to sell a product showing others how to do it?

      If there was an intrinsic value to your sig line, in terms of the results you got from the Million views, then why feel the need to sell it?

      Unless of course, those million views didn't net you much money...or you can't repeat the process systematically and methodically to get a regular million views to produce an income worthy of other people knowing about.

      Hate to call you out, but I'm tired of the hypocritical BS around here!

      Anyway, that's off point. The OP was saying why the phrase "and you can too" is not chess.

      I'd like to know in what context/sense it's not appropriate to say that in your sales copy.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mukul Verma
        Originally Posted by Nick Brighton View Post

        Equally, if someone can get "a Million views", why do they need to sell a product showing others how to do it?

        If there was an intrinsic value to your sig line, in terms of the results you got from the Million views, then why feel the need to sell it?

        Unless of course, those million views didn't net you much money...or you can't repeat the process systematically and methodically to get a regular million views to produce an income worthy of other people knowing about.

        Hate to call you out, but I'm tired of the hypocritical BS around here!

        Anyway, that's off point. The OP was saying why the phrase "and you can too" is not chess.

        I'd like to know in what context/sense it's not appropriate to say that in your sales copy.
        Hey Nick, I see your point, no worries you should call someone on it

        If that was the case, only people who have not done anything would be teaching. People who have done anything would not be teaching since they are making money. I would say 100% only people who have had success should teach.

        My reason was not long ago for the millionths (not literally of course) time I explained exactly what I did to video market, so I decided to make it into a product...

        You will not see a income guarantee from me (even though I can say it consistently makes me a good income (if you want details on how much PM me, as this is not the place to say it), but the GREAT part is the time off, that I love. Income guarantee what this thread about.

        So there would no warrior forum following

        The point here is income earning disclaimers and it being legal and no no's
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      • Profile picture of the author TyBrown
        Originally Posted by Nick Brighton View Post

        Equally, if someone can get "a Million views", why do they need to sell a product showing others how to do it?

        If there was an intrinsic value to your sig line, in terms of the results you got from the Million views, then why feel the need to sell it?

        Unless of course, those million views didn't net you much money...or you can't repeat the process systematically and methodically to get a regular million views to produce an income worthy of other people knowing about.

        Hate to call you out, but I'm tired of the hypocritical BS around here!

        Anyway, that's off point. The OP was saying why the phrase "and you can too" is not chess.

        I'd like to know in what context/sense it's not appropriate to say that in your sales copy.
        In many industries it is easier to make more money by teaching the skill rather than doing the skill.

        Now, there are those who never had the skill yet are 'teaching' it now. That I'm not too fond of and illustrates the point you are making. But many of the actual 'gurus' have made a fortune in an industry and now go about teaching it because it gives them more time and money freedom.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tom Brite
    Im not really sure i understand!

    This technique of making the reader feel like they can do something as amazing as earn $100 a day or whatever works. The reason it works as if your just starting out or are failing currently then you don't see that as achievable!

    Then you see a product that says it will show you how you can do this or that you can do it then you check it out!

    Plus those earn $XXX per day etc products do really well because of that!

    They make a claim and claim that you can earn the same too.

    Not sure if ive understood your point though but it is 'forcing' the reader to know that they can do it too before they have even read the sales copy!

    Example:
    I earn $100 a day!

    VS

    I earn $100 a day and you can too!

    The second one is obviously better than the first and would get more views and readers.

    Thanks

    Tom Brite

    P.S. If you were just talking about the whole income claims legal side of things then all you need to do is add 'not everyone will make this amount of money' or make a disclaimer etc if its on a site!
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      [DELETED]
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom Brite
        Originally Posted by alexa_s View Post

        The second one would obviously get more views and readers, yes. It's less clear that that necessarily makes it "better" (unless those are your only criteria for "better", for a WSO).
        Well really the whole point of a WSO is to provide value and quality in return for money!

        So that change in title then means you provide the same quality and value but to more people and earn money... so then yes it is a better title!

        Tom Brite
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      • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
        Originally Posted by Tom Brite View Post


        Example:
        I earn $100 a day!

        VS

        I earn $100 a day and you can too!

        The second one is obviously better than the first and would get more views and readers.
        Now for the science part:

        This principle is NOT a deviation from the truth, nor is it any kind of legal infringement...UNLESS you omit one particular word..."how"

        When you leave this word in, it is basically a copywriting/sales tactic which does one key thing:

        It involves the reader, after telling them a fact/benefit which would otherwise seem distant, unrelated or detached from the reader

        For example...

        "I made 2 million last year from my warrior forum sig file alone..."

        Sounds like bragging and who cares, right?

        Now...

        "I made 2 million last year from my warrior forum sig file alone...and here's how you can too"

        Sounds like instructions on how I can make 2 million. Simple change, big difference.

        HOWEVER, when you leave the word "how" out of your copy, you're in trouble.

        Here's an example...

        Example 1 "Here's how I made 2 million on the warrior forum, and how you can too"

        vs

        Example 2 "I made 2 million on the warrior forum - and you can too"

        Example 1 suggests "how" you can copy my success. Which is all you're really selling - the how to.

        Example 2 suggests that you "CAN" copy my success, when in reality you'll probably not be as smart, have enough time, money or passion...to ever come close to my same success...despite copy and pasting my "blueprint".
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  • Profile picture of the author Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter
    I've heard it said that good copywriting is "the art of presenting the truth in the most positive and compelling way possible."
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter View Post

      I've heard it said that good copywriting is "the art of presenting the truth in the most positive and compelling way possible."
      I'm trying to source this. It's going in my sig.
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      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        I'm trying to source this. It's going in my sig.
        Um, this is a bit akward, um, but, um, I think I was the one who said it. It just sounds better when one says "I've heard it said."
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter View Post

          Um, this is a bit akward, um, but, um, I think I was the one who said it. It just sounds better when one says "I've heard it said."
          Got a last name I can attribute?
          Signature
          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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          • Profile picture of the author Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            Got a last name I can attribute?
            Sorry, Kevin Bidwell. My bad.
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            • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
              Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter View Post

              Sorry, Kevin Bidwell. My bad.
              The fun part about changing your sig is that it changes everywhere. When I used to have a sig that said "Information marketing is the business of selling farts by calling them poop," a lot of people said they were offended by that.

              Now that I've changed it, they still have these comments up about how offended they were, but people reading those posts today will see my new sig... so it looks like they're offended by honesty in copywriting.

              I just think that's hilarious.
              Signature
              "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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              • Profile picture of the author Mukul Verma
                Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                The fun part about changing your sig is that it changes everywhere. When I used to have a sig that said "Information marketing is the business of selling farts by calling them poop," a lot of people said they were offended by that.

                Now that I've changed it, they still have these comments up about how offended they were, but people reading those posts today will see my new sig... so it looks like they're offended by honesty in copywriting.

                I just think that's hilarious.
                That is funny!!!!
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              • Profile picture of the author brunski57
                I not sure how valid most income claims (posted here) are.

                But with that said...

                I believe the real problem is that most people who buy...

                First: They Do Not implement at all. (I am guilty of this)

                Second: they tweak, or change from the original instructions.

                Third: they give up why too soon.
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                • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                  Originally Posted by brunski57 View Post

                  I not sure how valid most income claims (posted here) are.

                  But with that said...

                  I believe the real problem is that most people who buy...

                  First: They Do Not implement at all. (I am guilty of this)

                  Second: they tweak, or change from the original instructions.

                  Third: they give up why too soon.

                  I don't disagree.

                  But my point here is that people are exposing themselves unnecessarily. Regardless of whether anybody agrees with the way alphabet agencies choose their rules, you still have to play by them.

                  There are PLENTY of PROVEN headline "templates" (for lack of a better word) that don't depend on income claims. Learning to write copy or even hiring a pro copywriter may look pretty inexpensive by comparison if the FTC, etc. ever come knocking.
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                  "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
                  ~ Zig Ziglar
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              • Profile picture of the author Hyaku_Man
                I think some of the WSOs around here are pretty misleading, and written by people who really don't make much money (except off WSOs). It's pretty obvious once you've read a few, of which a couple will be about some really basic stuff but they're claiming to bank from it. I don't buy it. Some are solid and make credible claims, I have to give props to those ones.

                I have no problem with someone saying "I made $3517 in one day!" if they actually did. If they didn't and they write that, well I hope they get taken down. Because noobs actually believe it. Maybe the reason they stop taking action is because they were led to believe it was easy, and they get discouraged when they don't get the immediate results they think everyone else gets. I don't see that as completely the noobs' fault if they've been lied to.

                Most of these misinformational products are aimed at noobs or near-noobs. That's the problem, because they don't really know enough to judge whose claims are credible and whose aren't. It depends not only on the size of the income claims but also the person's resume. I would also say it depends on their willingness to offer value with no agenda (ie. they post on topics that aren't in their signature).

                Bottom line is that there are too many damn products anyway. The point of this place is to share information. WSOs should be things like software and scripts, or really advanced methods. Not "How to make Phpbay minisites" or whatever. That stuff should be shared. If people sell that stuff they're just gouging noobs.
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    I just intentionally tell people that I am not going to make any income claims because they're in charge of their own destiny, not me. All I can do is show them how I create revenue for myself.
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    • Profile picture of the author mlmguru
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      I just intentionally tell people that I am not going to make any income claims because they're in charge of their own destiny, not me. All I can do is show them how I create revenue for myself.
      I like this Michael, it is probaly the best thing we all should do.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steve Diamond
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      I just intentionally tell people that I am not going to make any income claims because they're in charge of their own destiny, not me. All I can do is show them how I create revenue for myself.
      This is by far the best policy. Many of the other responses in this thread represent points of view that IMO are recklessly playing with fire, to put it mildly.

      I'm not a lawyer. I strongly urge anyone who is promoting or thinking of promoting a business opportunity in the U.S. to consult a good one, realizing that "business opportunity" has a very broad definition according to the FTC (Federal Trade Commission).

      Since 2006 the FTC has been floating a proposal for revising their rules on the promotion of business opportunities in general and income claims in particular. They discussed their proposal with representatives of various bizopp-related industries, and they summarized these discussions in this document, which calls for additional comments by June 16, 2008.

      Apparently discussion is still continuing. They held a workshop on June 11, 2009, and in this document stated that they agreed to extend the workshop comment period until June 29. I haven't been able to find anything more recent. Apparently it hasn't yet become law.

      But in any case, the proposed rule revision gives a good idea of their thinking and, probably, a pretty good idea of what their enforcement people are looking for. You can find the language of the proposed rule as an appendix near the bottom of the very long document referred to in my first link, two paragraphs ago.

      Its essence, as I read it, is that when you make any income claims, you must have documented proof that the claims are true and you must state what percentage of the people who have bought into your opportunity have actually achieved that result.

      In other words, it's not enough to say "disclaimer: results not typical." It's not enough to say "your results will depend on your efforts." You have to say "out of all the people who bought my stupid ebook, .05% of them actually ever made $15,000 per month."

      When's the last time you ever saw a statement like that on an IM sales page?

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter
        Originally Posted by Steve Diamond View Post

        In other words, it's not enough to say "disclaimer: results not typical." It's not enough to say "your results will depend on your efforts." You have to say "out of all the people who bought my stupid ebook, .05% of them actually ever made $15,000 per month."

        When's the last time you ever saw a statement like that on an IM sales page?

        Steve
        Steve,

        I was aware of this and I think it's not a good development. Here's my take (feel free to correct me if I am off base)...

        Take any human activity--it could be self-improvement, but it could just as easily be parenting or graduating from college, and look at how many people actually take consistent action.

        The vast majority of people are unwilling to take consistent action in any area regardless of their personal potential.

        I sell self-improvement products. Self-improvement requires a person to take action--whether it is to lose weight, be a better parent, stop smoking or make money.

        When someone doesn't take action they see no results and the vast majority of people never take any action.

        Should we then say "5% of people see results" when only 5% of people take any action?

        I think it's an unrealistic requirement.

        I understand why people want these kinds of requirements--there are all kinds of people making outlandish claims and presenting completely unworkable solutions to problems, but at some point you've have to say people have to take reasonable action.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steve Diamond
          Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter View Post

          When someone doesn't take action they see no results and the vast majority of people never take any action.

          Should we then say "5% of people see results" when only 5% of people take any action?

          I think it's an unrealistic requirement.

          I understand why people want these kinds of requirements--there are all kinds of people making outlandish claims and presenting completely unworkable solutions to problems, but at some point you've have to say people have to take reasonable action.
          Kevin, as a rational being I agree with you 100%. But no one ever accused the FTC of being rational or realistic.

          Their mission as they see it is to protect the consumer from his/her own stupidity and ignorance. This is obviously a never-ending task and a great example, when taken to extremes, of government at its worst.

          Nearly enough to make me sign up to be a Libertarian.

          But all of this is beside the point. Marketers have to deal with reality, and in the U.S. the FTC is reality. Ignore their rules at your peril.

          Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author Carl Pruitt
        Originally Posted by Steve Diamond View Post

        In other words, it's not enough to say "disclaimer: results not typical." It's not enough to say "your results will depend on your efforts." You have to say "out of all the people who bought my stupid ebook, .05% of them actually ever made $15,000 per month."

        When's the last time you ever saw a statement like that on an IM sales page?

        Steve
        I agree with the advice, but this is just another example of society being pulled down to the lowest common denominator in every way. In this case, the lowest level of idiocy. Making the assumption that every buyer of a product is going to put the same level of effort into taking advantage of the opportunity is something only a government bureaucracy could come up with. Personally, I think it's time we got rid of all the "alphabet agencies" and forced people to think for themselves before everyone completely forgets how.
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        Thanks!
        Carl Pruitt
        http://LongRunPublishing.com

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      • Profile picture of the author Roy Carter
        Originally Posted by Steve Diamond View Post

        In other words, it's not enough to say "disclaimer: results not typical." It's not enough to say "your results will depend on your efforts." You have to say "out of all the people who bought my stupid ebook, .05% of them actually ever made $15,000 per month."
        Steve
        Wow! How the heck are you suposed to know how much every single buyer of your ebook made?????
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  • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
    Originally Posted by Mukul Verma View Post

    Hey Nick, I see your point, no worries you should call someone on it

    If that was the case, only people who have not done anything would be teaching. People who have done anything would not be teaching since they are making money. I would say 100% only people who have had success should teach.

    My reason was not long ago for the millionths (not literally of course) time I explained exactly what I did to video market, so I decided to make it into a product...

    You will not see a income guarantee from me (even though I can say it consistently makes me a good income (if you want details on how much PM me, as this is not the place to say it), but the GREAT part is the time off, that I love. Income guarantee what this thread about.

    So there would no warrior forum following

    The point here is income earning disclaimers and it being legal and no no's
    Actually, I hold my hand up and aplogize for my reply to your post - I rifled off without thinking properly. Unlike me.

    I guess I was trying to say, just because people are using certain tactics to get better response, doens't mean they aren't walking the walk.

    I only wanted to say that because I saw your post which suggested that, and it seemed to contradict what you were doing - which was selling something in your sig, which if was as effective as you suggest it is, would likely cause an objection in most people's minds which is "if he's getting a million viewers/visitors, why the heck is he so quick to sell his spade?"

    I agree with your reply though, and I was not thinking straight.

    Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter View Post

    Wow! You're like SUPERMAN or something! I'll pay you anything!
    Well, it comes with a guarantee too - you jump higher than you've ever jumped before, or you pay nothing*

    * trampolines may be used in the coaching sessions of this program.
    * only open to people who have never jumped before in their lives
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  • Profile picture of the author cesarsan
    I believe it is only a problem when it is a lie. The customer must have an estimate of how much he can expect to profit when buying the system.

    But how can we separate the wheat from the chaff? Only by reading the product's sales page with a critical mind and looking for information on it and its creator can a customer know if what he is buying is a quality product from a quality source.

    That said I must also say that some claims we see in the sales pages out there are laughable. There is no way a newbie can check hundreds of dollars (or thousands) just by reading an ebook or blueprint.
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  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    This thread has given me a headache. I can show you how to get a headache from it too!

    $97 please.
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    • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
      Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

      This thread has given me a headache. I can show you how to get a headache from it too!

      $97 please.
      Okay, but I'll need proof of your headache.

      A screenshot of a bottle of aspirin should do the trick.



      Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
        Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

        Okay, but I'll need proof of your headache.

        A screenshot of a bottle of aspirin should do the trick.


        Frank


        $97 please.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          The OP is so vague that I'm not even sure what the actual complaint is.

          Is it saying that no mention of any income generation potential should be
          allowed in sales copy at all? (There goes every Clickbank product in the
          make money niche)

          Or is the OP specifically saying that guaranteeing you will make $X a month
          or whatever is a no-no?

          I personally see no problem with the following:

          "I've discovered a simple system that has generated me $100 a day and
          I'm going to show you exactly what I do to earn that so that YOU can
          too."

          Where is that a no-no?

          I'm not guaranteeing anything. I'm just saying that I'm going to show
          them what I do to make that money so that if they put those tactics
          into practice, they can make that money too.

          The operative word being can...not will.

          Big difference in my opinion and certain enough about the wording that
          I'll take my chances with the authorities.

          So far in 6 plus years nobody has taken me to court.

          But like I said, if the OP is saying you can't mention anything about income
          potential at all, then Clickbank better hope to God that the feds don't
          take a look at their marketplace.

          Anyway, a clarification of what the actual complaint is would be nice.
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    • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
      Looking at the classified ads ....

      $50,000 per month
      $690 per day ($20,700 per month)
      $1100 per month

      WSOs ...

      $millions
      $1000-$5000 per month
      $5432 per month
      $7566 per month
      $2000 a day ($60,000 per month)
      $100 a day ($3000 per month)

      Dang. I don't know about you, but everyone here is soon going to be making $100,000+ per month!!!!!!! Yippeee!!!!!!!!

      I think I'll do a WSO - how to make $100,000k per month - just sign up for all these other offers.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter
        Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

        Dang. I don't know about you, but everyone here is soon going to be making $100,000+ per month!!!!!!!
        I get your point, but I have a slightly different take...

        After working with verifiable THOUSANDS of people who claim they wish to succeed online, only a small handful take ANY directed action. Those that do often succeed and succeed at a high level.

        I'm sure you are not intending to paint every opportunity with the same wide brush or you wouldn't be here, but the reality is this: If one is willing to follow a reasonable plan for a year, that person should be able to make $5000 or so online.

        Are there bogus plans out there? Sure. But there are also plenty of ways to make it happen.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ruddy
        Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

        Looking at the classified ads ....

        $50,000 per month
        $690 per day ($20,700 per month)
        $1100 per month

        WSOs ...


        $1000-$5000 per month
        $5432 per month
        $7566 per month
        $2000 a day ($60,000 per month)
        $100 a day ($3000 per month)

        Dang. I don't know about you, but everyone here is soon going to be making $100,000+ per month!!!!!!! Yippeee!!!!!!!!

        I think I'll do a WSO - how to make $100,000k per month - just sign up for all these other offers.
        PM me and I'll show you one of my sites which made me $30,000 per month . I have sold that site so I have no problem telling you about it. And yeah, of course I can prove i was the previous owner, so not just a simple claim. I teach because I want to make even more money. I was thinking something like Mass Control or PPC Coach make **** load amount of money so why don't I try to double my income with this? After all, I'm also a member of various sites such as PPC Coach, Black Hat Guide, Mass Control, etc. It's true some of them are pure hype but some others aren't. So it's not a false claim (at least, my guides)

        And I do teach something like adwords, SEO, etc. so basically you won't become my competitors. So why not? It's not just a claim.
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        • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
          Originally Posted by Ruddy View Post

          PM me and I'll show you one of my sites which made me $30,000 per month . I have sold that site so I have no problem telling you about it..
          I was thinking about this, some other posts, and how the the 'real deal' guys and gals are all thrown into together with the fraudsters.

          It's not fair to them. It's not fair to the Warriors who get ripped by bogus claims. It's not fair to the Warriors who don't buy from them because they can't figure out who to believe. Certainly doesn't help the forum.

          Thinking about this Ruddy, instead you PMing me, just privately proving something to me doesn't do you much good.

          But I have launched a WSO that might serve some good. We'll see. It's in my sig below, and probably already buried on the WSO subforum. That's another problem, sometimes there's an avalanche of what I consider dubious claims that I know 'newbies' are buying. They buy, have a bad experience with IM and the WF, and are gone.

          Who knows Ruddy, you might make some good money if you can separate yourself from everyone else making income claims.
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

      This thread has given me a headache. I can show you how to get a headache from it too!

      $97 please.
      Sorry guy - the system was so transparent I figured it out on my own. But I will give you a testimony that it IS an easy system and, while many will continue to miss the point, a very good percentage of readers will succeed without any work at all!
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  • Profile picture of the author Lance K
    Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

    I'd never really noticed all the offers that contain "I make per blah AND YOU CAN TO" or something to that effect.

    Do people really not know that the "you can too" and "I'll show you how you can" etc. comments are...


    I thought I made it clear enough. Sorry if I didn't.

    Income claims are A-OK if you have the proof to back them up. Why you imply that your prospect can expect similar results is where the trouble starts.

    Just because no alphabet agency has noticed you yet doesn't mean they won't eventually.

    I'm not a lawyer and don't play one on T.V. And I'm not even a non-attorney spokesman. But I'm fairly certain that ignorance of the law isn't an acceptable defense.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
    In the US at least, it does appear that the "powers that be" (FTC) are taking a more hardline approach to income claims then they have in the past.

    "I make 5k a week - here's how I do it"
    is certainly not the same thing as
    "I make 5k a week - here's how you can, too"

    where as I disagree with Nick -
    "I make 5k a week - and you can too"
    is saying the same thing as
    "I make 5k a week - here's how you can, too"

    Personaly, I don't have a problem with any of them if they are true. I'm not an idiot -I know "can" and "will" are not the same thing, but apparantly the FTC thinks we are all idiots and need protected from our own stupidity. I am much concerned with the first part of all these claims!
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
    Some people may not realize this, but "income claims" goes beyond you saying how much you make. It includes testimonials that refer to income, etc.. These new rules that the FTC are talking about are pretty extreme.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ruddy
    Agree with you Kevin. People don't take action. Well, I was working like 8 hours a day when I was promoting my first diet pill site. Now for my working sites, I usually outsource them. There's trial and error in outsourcing as well but now they seem work to be fine.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter
      Originally Posted by Ruddy View Post

      Agree with you Kevin. People don't take action. Well, I was working like 8 hours a day when I was promoting my first diet pill site. Now for my working sites, I usually outsource them. There's trial and error in outsourcing as well but now they seem work to be fine.
      Right now in my sig (though I will probably change it tomorrow) is Roy Miller. Roy was 34, unemployed and living in his parents' basement when I met him. He emailed me and asked me if it was possible for a guy with no money to start to actually make money online.

      I gave him free admission to my Self-Help Products Crash Course (normally $800)

      By the time the course was over (10 weeks) he had made $6,110.00.

      But here was the funny thing...

      His class mates watched him make money and cheered him on, but none of them even got a site up--they didn't take action. To them the payoff was simply going to the class every week.

      So, 25 people and only 1 took action.
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      • Profile picture of the author Josef_Benjamin
        Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter View Post

        Right now in my sig (though I will probably change it tomorrow) is Roy Miller. Roy was 34, unemployed and living in his parents' basement when I met him. He emailed me and asked me if it was possible for a guy with no money to start to actually make money online.

        I gave him free admission to my Self-Help Products Crash Course (normally $800)

        By the time the course was over (10 weeks) he had made $6,110.00.

        But here was the funny thing...

        His class mates watched him make money and cheered him on, but none of them even got a site up--they didn't take action. To them the payoff was simply going to the class every week.

        So, 25 people and only 1 took action.
        Kinda sucks when this happens, but this is the sole reason why i don't like teaching people what I do...and if I do, than I have to teach in masses.

        I don't like doing one on one time, even if I'm offered money...because I earn so much more just doing the stuff myself. It's time consuming, long hours, and the people who want to help may eventually quit or decided not to do it.

        That ratio of action takers to non action takers is fairly accurate.

        Only about 4-5 people out of 100 actually do anything with the information. I was one of those 100...until I decided to be a part of the 5%.

        It's a choice.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mukul Verma
    It comes down to this

    Use what you have done constantly and worked to sell your IM product, however be humble.

    Dont tell on something you think or has works for someone else.

    The ones who are real will last the longest
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  • Profile picture of the author David Mcalorum
    It's a true shame, such on obvious fail is so often overlooked. You will often see those claims associated with newer IMers who have been self-taught to think that is a basic line to throw into every pitch. Everyone who's bought a guide like that and decided to try and to their own right away has no other idea ground into their head yet. /cry
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
    § 437.4 Earnings claims.

    In connection with the offer for sale, sale, or promotion of a business opportunity, it is a violation of this Rule and an unfair or deceptive act or practice in violation of section 5 of the FTC Act, for the seller to:
    (a) Make any earnings claim to a prospective purchaser, unless the seller:
    (1) Has a reasonable basis for its claim at the time the claim is made;
    (2) Has in its possession written materials that substantiate its claim at the time the claim is made;
    (3) Makes the written substantiation available upon request to the prospective purchaser and to the Commission; and
    (4) Furnishes to the prospective purchaser an earnings claim statement. The earnings claim statement shall be a single written document and shall state the following information:
    (i) The title ''EARNINGS CLAIM STATEMENT REQUIRED BY LAW'' in capital, bold type letters;
    (ii) The name of the person making the earnings claim and the date of the earnings claim;
    (iii) The earnings claim;
    (iv) The beginning and ending dates when the represented earnings were achieved;
    (v) The number and percentage of all purchasers during the stated time period who achieved at least the stated level of earnings;
    (vi) Any characteristics of the purchasers who achieved at least the represented level of earnings, such as their location, that may differ materially from the characteristics of the prospective purchasers being offered the business opportunity; and
    (vii) A statement that written substantiation for the earnings claim will be made available to the prospective purchaser upon request.
    (b) Make any earnings claim in the general media, unless the seller:
    (1) Has a reasonable basis for its claim at the time the claim is made;
    (2) Has in its possession written material that substantiates its claim at the time the claim is made;
    (3) States in immediate conjunction with the claim:
    (i) The beginning and ending dates when the represented earnings were achieved; and
    (ii) The number and percentage of purchasers during that time period who achieved the represented earnings.
    (c) Disseminate industry financial, earnings, or performance information unless the seller has written substantiation demonstrating that the information reflects the typical or ordinary financial, earnings, or performance experience of purchasers of the business opportunity being offered for sale.
    (d) Fail to notify any prospective purchaser in writing of any material changes affecting the relevance or reliability of the information contained in an earnings claim statement before the prospective purchaser signs any contract or makes a payment or provides other consideration to the seller, directly or indirectly, through a third party.
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  • Profile picture of the author zerofill
    How about:

    "I made $2,000,000 last year, and you can too if you are one of the .0000000625% that follow through to the end!"
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  • Profile picture of the author Mr Money Maker
    Legal writing is the key......if you make promises for a sale price, it better work....or you can give the info away for free....and not worry much about anything.....risk makes money, at least that's how people see it.
    The best way to make money online is to sell a great product.....a great product is one you know will not be returned because it is the best on the market.
    Remember you have not made a sale if your product was returned for a refund.....so do your best and you'll never regret it...!!
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  • Profile picture of the author maxitman
    Well, I see there are a good number of people, most in fact, who are promising all sorts of stuff. How about this; you give me your money making program for free, and I will follow your instructions to a t, and as soon as I make the money, I will pay you double what you are asking!
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    • Profile picture of the author Sagar Mehta
      Originally Posted by maxitman View Post

      Well, I see there are a good number of people, most in fact, who are promising all sorts of stuff. How about this; you give me your money making program for free, and I will follow your instructions to a t, and as soon as I make the money, I will pay you double what you are asking!
      That kind of mindset would not get you anywhere my friend.

      Why do you think you're entitled to receive the program for free? Someone has spent time and possibly money on putting together the product. They don't need to give the product away to you or anyone else just prove it works. There are other ways to prove it.

      How would you feel if you ran an offline business, say a restaurant, and asked for a free meal?

      Regards,
      Sagar
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      • Profile picture of the author maxitman
        Sagar, while my suggestion is just "tongue in cheek", I would not be so quick to judge it, that is to say; if you are so sure about your own product, then how about put your money where your mouth is. What do you have to lose? If I dont do exactly as instructed, (and lets say for arguments sake that I will agree to pay the normal fee if I decide not to follow up as instructed) However, since you already know for a fact that your program works, you are simply going to get double income for your product! You compare to a restaurant, well not quite the same mostly because each meal is labored individually and I think that by simply having your restaurant up and running and people eating, is the "proof of the pudding" I think. But even with a restaurant, yeah why not, you could do the same thing, and if my memory serves me right, it has been done in the past.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
          Originally Posted by maxitman View Post

          Sagar, while my suggestion is just "tongue in cheek", I would not be so quick to judge it, that is to say; if you are so sure about your own product, then how about put your money where your mouth is. What do you have to lose? If I dont do exactly as instructed, (and lets say for arguments sake that I will agree to pay the normal fee if I decide not to follow up as instructed) However, since you already know for a fact that your program works, you are simply going to get double income for your product! You compare to a restaurant, well not quite the same mostly because each meal is labored individually and I think that by simply having your restaurant up and running and people eating, is the "proof of the pudding" I think. But even with a restaurant, yeah why not, you could do the same thing, and if my memory serves me right, it has been done in the past.
          Where do you work?

          Can I go to walmart, but a vaccuum and then go back and pay for it if it works?

          Can I go to the mall, pick up a couple pairs of jeans and then go back and pay for them if they hold up?

          No, but I can go back to those places and get my money back if the product they sold me doesn't do what it says it will.
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  • Profile picture of the author maxitman
    Jeremy, I hear you, totally, but I am just trying to look at it from another perspective, you have umpteen hundred people who are looking to get involved and buy products online, but are totally scared going into it. With all due respect, most of us marketers online do not have the credibility of a brick and mortar stores such as WalMart, and frankly, even getting your money back nowadays seems to be a problem from some the operations out there. So, just food for a thought.
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    • Profile picture of the author psresearch
      Originally Posted by maxitman View Post

      Jeremy, I hear you, totally, but I am just trying to look at it from another perspective, you have umpteen hundred people who are looking to get involved and buy products online, but are totally scared going into it. With all due respect, most of us marketers online do not have the credibility of a brick and mortar stores such as WalMart, and frankly, even getting your money back nowadays seems to be a problem from some the operations out there. So, just food for a thought.
      Here's what someone once posted on my blog about this kind of mentality:

      "I never cease to be amazed by how many people think nothing of demanding that someone like Paul do everything for free... but I bet if I went to them and said, "Hey, I'd like you to do your job, for me, for FREE," they'd tell me to get lost! But oh, Paul, YOU shouldn't make any money. "

      Paul Schlegel/MarkQuinn
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    • Profile picture of the author Diana Lane
      Originally Posted by maxitman View Post

      With all due respect, most of us marketers online do not have the credibility of a brick and mortar stores such as WalMart, and frankly, even getting your money back nowadays seems to be a problem from some the operations out there. So, just food for a thought.
      We're unlikely to get the credibility of brick and mortar stores if we make unnecessary compromises of the type that they wouldn't. This just suggests that we don't deserve such credibility.
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  • Profile picture of the author alucard001
    Learn something new again. Thanks for your information. I really don't know such claim will get someone into trouble.
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  • Profile picture of the author maxitman
    BigMike, I am with you on this, but again I just dont see it as that simple, and I suspect we will see more debates and actions over this issue. Anyways, thanks for saying your piece.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rueann42
    I am very brand new here. I have seen a lot of these claims. I am glad you put the word out about them since I am trying very hard to do well. I am a retired psychotherapist and have this horrid tendency to believe what people say.
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  • Profile picture of the author sylviad
    There's this little thing about the English language that most people overlook - implied meanings, like:

    You "can" = but "will" you?

    Can implies potential = Will implies a definite

    You can make as much (anybody 'can'), but that doesn't mean you will simply because you might be doing something different (product, methods, word usage). Perhaps you won't put in the same amount of effort in the same places to the same effect.

    Now, if you advertise:

    "I make $100 a day and you WILL too" that definitely would be blasphemous and open to legal debate.

    Isn't the English language fun?

    Sylvia
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  • Profile picture of the author robvegas626
    If I'm going to consider buying a product, I need to know SPECIFICS. So many IM products make wild claims about how much money you can (or will) make, yet the "product" itself is totally vague.

    Also popular are various automation softwares that promise to "obliterate" the search engine and "annihilate" your competition...and although they SOUND amazing, you will hardly see any actual results by using the software. Rather, you will get banned from ton of places, possibly get penalized, and waste your money.

    In my experience, with the exception of a few good tools, most of the automation software I've tried out gets nowhere near the REAL RESULTS that you are hoping for. You're not going to "annihilate" anything except your own budget.
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  • Profile picture of the author dsmpublishing
    I know someone on here that claims to be a big guru, someone else checked him out because he didnt believe what he was saying and under the uk freedom of information act found out he was in major debt even though he claimed a 7 figure salary.

    The guru has now quit - draw your own conclusions!!!

    kind regards


    sam
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