Frank Kern... go jump in a lake

by Scott Ames 26 replies
It seems to me that sometimes people get expert advise, then totally ignore it. A case study on on of Frank's disks took apart a web page and Frank gave good ideas and tips on how to improve it. I don't know when this occurred, but certainly long before I got the disks.. Guess what, that page in the study looks almost the same as before Frank's suggestions. Why?

The same thing happened on Michael Fortin's site. He spent hours, and was paid I'm sure, to improve a site. It looks hardly any different today. All those ideas, tossed.

Why do people do this?

I suppose because I'm out of the loop and don't know, they could have tested those ideas and they didn't pan out. Something tells me otherwise though. It seems like people are saying, "Thanks for the advise, now go jump in a lake"
#main internet marketing discussion forum #frank kern #jump #lake
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    Scott have you ever watched Gordon Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmare's?

    Peace

    Jay
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    Bare Murkage.........

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    • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
      Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

      Scott have you ever watched Gordon Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmare's?

      Peace

      Jay
      I'm not familiar with that one no. I'll Google it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
        In each episode, Ramsay visits a failing restaurant and acts as a troubleshooter to help improve the establishment in just one week. Ramsay revisits the restaurant a few months later to see how business has fared in his absence. Episodes from series one and two have been re-edited with additional new material as Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares Revisited; they featured Ramsay checking up on restaurants a year or more after he attended to them. The show is also known for Ramsay's excessive use of profanity.
        I'm guessing most of the restaurants he checks up on have not taken his advise. True?
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      • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
        Well.... I'll be brief..

        Gordon Ramsay is a world known top quality chef and restaurant owner..michelin stars, multiple successful restaurants worldwide this guy has... he'd be like the Frank Kern of the food world...

        he gets called in to help these numbnut restaurant owners who are losing money hand over fist with their ramshackle outfits...

        This guy often overhauls their restaurant and menu to fit the current market.. gives them all new kitchen equipment.. builds a whole new brand in two weeks, re-launches the place, builds hype in the local area, has open evenings.. the whole lot..all on Gordon's dollar.

        He re-visits six months down the line and some of these numbnut guys and girls have slipped back into their crappy ways and dirty plates of crap food...

        Some people are just scared to embrace the much needed changes that lead to an improved bottom line...

        It's flippin hilarious to see how people are so stubborn..even when a proven successful hand is helping themm..

        LOL>... it pisses me off too..can ya tell?... sorry for the rant

        Peace

        Jay
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  • Profile picture of the author James Turner
    Or maybe the suggested improvements were split tested and the original was better?

    Improving a site to increase the conversion rate isn't an exact science, there's a fair bit of artistry involved.

    James
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Originally Posted by James Turner View Post

      Improving a site to increase the conversion rate isn't an exact science, there's a fair bit of artistry involved.
      Agree that it's not and exact science, but I'd still call it science. Make a change, measure results, repeat. Sounds more scientific than artistic to me.
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      "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
      ~ Zig Ziglar
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      • Profile picture of the author MaskedMarketer
        Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

        Agree that it's not and exact science, but I'd still call it science. Make a change, measure results, repeat. Sounds more scientific than artistic to me.
        I would consider marketing a science and art... but thats just me.
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        • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
          Originally Posted by MaskedMarketer View Post

          I would consider marketing a science and art... but thats just me.
          oooh.....oooh... me too...

          I blogged about this a few weeks back..

          You MUST allow your scientific side and artistic side combine....lol... but seriously...I do agree with this even if I do sound a bit nutty.. it's how I work....

          Peace

          Jay
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        • Profile picture of the author Lance K
          Originally Posted by MaskedMarketer View Post

          I would consider marketing a science and art... but thats just me.
          I can get on board with that. But in the end it's always science that validates the art.
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          "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
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          • Profile picture of the author MaskedMarketer
            Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

            I can get on board with that. But in the end it's always science that validates the art.
            This is true. Its a mix of the 2. Artistic because your work does need to be creative. And scientific because it can be broken into a formula and tested.

            Marketing is a great skill to learn no matter what type of industry your in.
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            "I Pay Less Attention to What Men Say. I Just Watch What They Do."
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Williams
    Nice rubbernecking headline!

    But I just with these subject headlines would actually talk about what you think they're going to talk about.

    I should make an ebook on how to rubberneck properly without misleading people.
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  • Profile picture of the author James Turner
    The art is in the copywriting.

    There is no magical or scientific formula.

    Measurement isn't science, it's maths.

    James
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Originally Posted by James Turner View Post

      Measurement isn't science, it's maths.
      I consider math to be a science.
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      "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
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    • Profile picture of the author J. Barry Mandel
      You're only part right James.

      What about how the site is set up?

      Site layout, graphics, functionality etc.

      For example why is it that so many people enjoyed the Stompernet upsells and downsells after purchasing from their launch?

      I can guarantee you the answer lies only partially in the copywriting.


      Originally Posted by James Turner View Post

      The art is in the copywriting.

      There is no magical or scientific formula.

      Measurement isn't science, it's maths.

      James
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      James,
      Measurement isn't science, it's maths.
      Measurement is the proof of science.

      Marketing is part art, part science, and part black magic.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author James Turner
        Paul,

        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Marketing is part art, part science, and part black magic.

        OK, so I missed out the black magic part.

        I prefer "Alchemy" to black magic.

        James
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        • Profile picture of the author John Ritz
          I remember a story Michel Fortin told me last year when we were in Philly. World class copywriter and marketer John Carlton once sold an expensive info-product course.

          This was the days before CDs became mainstream, so the course was shipped on VHS tapes. The course sold for a thousand dollars, maybe two, and John sold about as many as well. He only got one return, asking for a refund.

          The reason given was that the tapes were blank. Fair enough. John took care of the matter, but when he investigated, he discovered that due to a production problem, ALL the sets sold were blank!

          Imagine that! And out of a thousand or more sold, he only got ONE refund request. I imagine everyone else stuck it on a shelf somewhere, still in its shrink-wrap, unopened.

          The point is, the people who take action are far more in the minority than you might think.
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          • Profile picture of the author Terry Hatfield
            It is simple really. People only ask for advice to confirm and validate their own ideas. They don't really want to hear yours.

            It is a rare bird that hears advice and actually applies it.

            Terry
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            • Profile picture of the author gareth
              He provided the analysis and they provided the paralysis.
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              • Profile picture of the author Anna Johnson
                He provided the analysis and they provided the paralysis.
                LOL!

                Yes, I can relate to this. Everyone who subscribes to our newsletter gets a free website critique. This is great for them and also provides quality, educational content for the newsletter.

                We've done a few website critiques now (heaps more to go!), and it's interesting to see the response (or lack thereof). I think that in some cases the changes seem too major/hard, and something they plan to get around to later.

                It's really about perceived priorities. But, as I think many of us agree, a user-friendly website that converts at a substantially higher rate is surely a high priority!
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          • Profile picture of the author Dean Kennedy
            Originally Posted by John Ritz View Post

            I remember a story Michel Fortin told me last year when we were in Philly. World class copywriter and marketer John Carlton once sold an expensive info-product course.

            This was the days before CDs became mainstream, so the course was shipped on VHS tapes. The course sold for a thousand dollars, maybe two, and John sold about as many as well. He only got one return, asking for a refund.

            The reason given was that the tapes were blank. Fair enough. John took care of the matter, but when he investigated, he discovered that due to a production problem, ALL the sets sold were blank!

            Imagine that! And out of a thousand or more sold, he only got ONE refund request. I imagine everyone else stuck it on a shelf somewhere, still in its shrink-wrap, unopened.

            The point is, the people who take action are far more in the minority than you might think.


            I would understand if all but the first tape were blank -- but every tape in the set? Crikey!

            I heard a stat like that recently about books -- only 10 per cent of people ever read past the first chapter.
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            since 1989 (Yes, in MS-DOS days, marketing offline before the WWW!)

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            • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              James,Measurement is the proof of science.

              Marketing is part art, part science, and part black magic.


              Paul
              I remember taking a class on the Japanese practice of Kaizen, or incremental improvements. In marketing, it would be like our test-and-track practice.

              The visual they used was a staircase. Nothing flashy, just steady step-by-step improvement.

              Then they talked about adding the art or magic to the process - the brilliant insight or blinding flash of the obvious.

              The image shifted...

              Take the stairs for awhile, then ride a few floors on the elevator, get out and start on the stairs again, only far ahead of where you would have been without the elevator.
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          • Profile picture of the author Rupps
            Wow, that's incredible.

            I'm an information hound as I bet most people here are. I cannot imagine not at least viewing the very first tape.

            I do have a few products that I have never finished reviewing simply because they were not helping me for where I was at the time (if that makes any sense).


            Originally Posted by John Ritz View Post


            The reason given was that the tapes were blank. Fair enough. John took care of the matter, but when he investigated, he discovered that due to a production problem, ALL the sets sold were blank!

            Imagine that! And out of a thousand or more sold, he only got ONE refund request. I imagine everyone else stuck it on a shelf somewhere, still in its shrink-wrap, unopened.

            The point is, the people who take action are far more in the minority than you might think.
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            • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
              Is it possible Frank did a critique of a site he found and the site's owner is unaware of that?
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              • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
                Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood View Post

                Is it possible Frank did a critique of a site he found and the site's owner is unaware of that?
                Not in this case. The guy was right there with Frank while he did it.
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          • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
            That's a great story. I saw that story in your videos as well. Its just amazing.

            Originally Posted by John Ritz View Post

            I remember a story Michel Fortin told me last year when we were in Philly. World class copywriter and marketer John Carlton once sold an expensive info-product course.

            This was the days before CDs became mainstream, so the course was shipped on VHS tapes. The course sold for a thousand dollars, maybe two, and John sold about as many as well. He only got one return, asking for a refund.

            The reason given was that the tapes were blank. Fair enough. John took care of the matter, but when he investigated, he discovered that due to a production problem, ALL the sets sold were blank!

            Imagine that! And out of a thousand or more sold, he only got ONE refund request. I imagine everyone else stuck it on a shelf somewhere, still in its shrink-wrap, unopened.

            The point is, the people who take action are far more in the minority than you might think.
            Signature

            Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm. -Winston Churchill

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