Is Ryan Deiss Wrong?

by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter 49 replies
Ya know, there is a disturbing trend that seems to go on in the internet marketing niche.

If you're a newbie, make sure to listen to this:

Just because something works for one product in one niche doesn't mean it will work for every product in every niche.

Case in point: The Big A** ORANGE "ADD TO CART" Button

Ryan Deiss published a product with the results of lots of tests he did on his promotions. One of those involved a big orange "ADD TO CART" button.

All of a sudden, on every sales page I see, there is a huge a** orange "ADD TO CART" button.

Then my clients start asking WHY DON'T THEY GET ONE OF THOSE HUGE A** ORANGE ADD TO CART BUTTONS?

So I did a test. Yup, I actually did a test. Started it August 11 and finished it yesterday.

I tested 14 different buttons on one product promotion. You know what I found?

THERE WAS A BUTTON THAT CLOSED 21.9% MORE SALES THAN THE FABLED BIG A** ORANGE "ADD TO CART" BUTTON

So was Ryan wrong? Is he intentionally misleading folks?

I doubt it. In his tests, with his products and his sales letters his big a** orange add to cart button closed more sales.

But that doesn't mean it will work for you. It might. It might not. Test that puppy.

(And don't ask me what button did best--I ain't tellin'. At least, not for free.)
#main internet marketing discussion forum #deiss #ryan #wrong
  • Kevin, you tease!
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
    So, what your saying is - you have to test?

    I guess by this theory, your button could be useless to a lot of us too
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Gannon
    Maybe it was the big A** red add to cart button?
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    I don't care if the Pope tells me something works. It still gets tested.
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  • Profile picture of the author kkchoon
    Guess "43 Split test" is just a reference guide!
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  • Profile picture of the author eaglechick
    I've seen this orangey thing. My personal experience is that I will rather buy from
    a button that says ORDER NOW OR BUY NOW. Blue triggers me to buy.
    Green and brown - no.

    You are spot on as usual - why do people just jump on the bandwagon and do'nt
    test something out for themselves. If you are serious about your biz put some effort
    into it.

    Does Coke and Pepsi have the exact same campaign/selling techniques ?
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Did you know that 100% of people that are colorblind can't see orange as a distinct color? I BET that if you tested them with blue and orange, that there would be no difference! I could see how consistancy could help.

    Godaddy and some other companies, like CHASE and truecredit, take advantage of INconsistancy to encourage costumers to FAIL to hit the right button! WHY? They try to trick you into UPSELLS! Frankly, I hate this and I know OTHERS do also, and it almost certainly loses them some LEGITIMATE business, but they use it to get some ILlegitimate business. ALSO, it follows the old trick some stores do to accomplish the SAME goal. THEIR reasoning? And YES, I DID ask! Their reasoning is that you will be FORCED to follow a new path looking for what you want and may find something you would like. One store, after telling me THAT, in fact, lost my business FOREVER! They used to be the ONE convienience store I always went to.

    BTW some people HATE orange and/or find it gaudy!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
    It was Blue. We all know it was blue.

    Okay so when is the ebook - "Coloring Your Way to Riches - Retina Research for the Advanced Marketer" ?

    We've been set up so go ahead - close
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  • Profile picture of the author rdeiss
    Kudos to Kevin for doing his own testing!

    Keep in mind that when I give folks my testing controls (either in 43splittests.com or just on my blog), they're just that...CONTROLS.

    I'm not suggesting that people use my tests as a replacement for their own testing. On the contrary, I'm just trying to give them a solid place START their own testing. (I'm pretty sure Perry and I even say that at the start of "43 Split Tests".)

    I've talked to a lot of folks who have taken my results but done their own testing. Most of the time my test results will wind up being the winner, but sometimes they weren't (as Kevin found out).

    Either way, I don't mind being "wrong". I'd rather be rich than right. )

    -Ryan Deiss

    P.S. Hey Kevin...did my button at least come in 2nd place? )
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    • Originally Posted by rdeiss View Post

      Kudos to Kevin for doing his own testing!

      Keep in mind that when I give folks my testing controls (either in 43splittests.com or just on my blog), they're just that...CONTROLS.

      I'm not suggesting that people use my tests as a replacement for their own testing. On the contrary, I'm just trying to give them a solid place START their own testing. (I'm pretty sure Perry and I even say that at the start of "43 Split Tests".)

      I've talked to a lot of folks who have taken my results but done their own testing. Most of the time my test results will wind up being the winner, but sometimes they weren't (as Kevin found out).

      Either way, I don't mind being "wrong". I'd rather be rich than right. )

      -Ryan Deiss

      P.S. Hey Kevin...did my button at least come in 2nd place? )
      Hey Ryan,

      The test was orange v. ___________ with several variations in size and wording. So orange always was in the top 2.

      Thanks for being a sport. And, no, I didn't think you were advocating ORANGE BUTTONS FOR ALL!
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  • Profile picture of the author bettersocial
    True. I made a blog a few weeks back in the SAME niche as my last blog.

    Pretty much the same keywords, the same link building tactics, etc. The last blog is in the top 3 of Google for its keyword.

    The other blog is on page 3.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mukul Verma
    TEST TEST TEST!!!!

    My experience is mostly with traffic. however I do not think the exact same strategy for every industry will get the same results. It depends on how your market percieves information. My top 5 referring site in 3 diff industry are different. The only common are direct and google.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    You know what! About 15 years or so ago, someone did a test to see what buttons everyone liked.(I think his name was Scott, one of Corey Rudl's friends) The FAR AND AWAY winner was NOT orange! It was NOT BLUE. One guess as to what color it was. It didn't surprise me in the LEAST! THEIR theory was some cocamamy(sp?) one, as I recall. MY theory? the use of implied consistancy to encourage the person to click. It was almost INSTINCTIVE! People thought they were clicking windows messages, instead of ads. Of course, the REAL trick is making the sale.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    ::shock::

    Imagine that, eh?...

    Testing to decide which components are the most successful in your business.

    I need to re-think my whole strategy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Gary McCaffrey
    Amazon use orange buttons with dark blue add to cart text.

    PayPal changed all their buttons to orange with dark blue text, one which says add to cart.

    Its no sustitute for testing at all but modelling what has been tested and proven is better than nothing.
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  • Quite frankly, as long as as the "buy button" is easily recognizable, I very much doubt it matters whether it's orange, gray, light blue or whatever. People dont swing their credit cards based on your button, but on your product and how well you market it.

    I've split tested myself a number of stupid things like this (like the color of the buy button, the font of the header tittle, the width of the page, etc) and I never got any significant piece of information out of it. Now a days, I just placed a generic "Add to Cart" Amazon-like button and that's it. People know what "add to cart" means for Christ's sake, no need to tweak that to oblivion!

    If you want to spend time split testing, do it on stuff that actually matters: the product's price, the email follow up sequence, the video sales page vs. traditional sales page, etc. The color of your button is not going to make that much of an impact.
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  • Profile picture of the author Slin
    I don't get it, I have to test and work to make money online?

    That's it! I'm out!
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter View Post

    (And don't ask me what button did best--I ain't tellin'. At least, not for free.)
    Then your post becomes an AD for your upcoming product.

    I equate these types of post to those emails subject lines
    that say "Ray, here's your payment" only to open and
    say that is what I'll see if I made affiliate sales for them.

    Please don't tell me what you are NOT going to tell me.

    -Ray Edwards
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    • Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

      Then your post becomes an AD for your upcoming product.

      I equate these types of post to those emails subject lines
      that say "Ray, here's your payment" only to open and
      say that is what I'll see if I made affiliate sales for them.

      Please don't tell me what you are NOT going to tell me.

      -Ray Edwards
      Sorry to offend Ray.

      You are a tremendous asset to this board and I appreciate your input, but I don't have a "split test" product nor do I plan to have one in the future. This is not some veiled come-on to sell you a product in the future.

      It if had been I would have "launched" it while this thread was fresh.

      The reason I didn't say what color button worked best was simple: There are many variables here and I didn't want someone simply thinking "well, if it out performed Ryan's button..." then blindly choosing the one that did better in my particular situation.

      My point when I wrote this post was simply to remind those who blindly follow "whatever" that testing is key.
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      • Profile picture of the author Raydal
        Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter View Post

        Sorry to offend Ray.

        You are a tremendous asset to this board and I appreciate your input, but I don't have a "split test" product nor do I plan to have one in the future. This is not some veiled come-on to sell you a product in the future.

        It if had been I would have "launched" it while this thread was fresh.

        The reason I didn't say what color button worked best was simple: There are many variables here and I didn't want someone simply thinking "well, if it out performed Ryan's button..." then blindly choosing the one that did better in my particular situation.

        My point when I wrote this post was simply to remind those who blindly follow "whatever" that testing is key.
        Not offended really. Just my way of saying that your post was
        only a tease. I read it with great anticipation that you were
        about to give me some test results only to find out that you
        were keeping it a secret.

        -Ray Edwards
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      I have a huge flashing purple button on one of my sales pages. I picked it because it matches the sales page colors and it is pretty.

      Another sales page has a huge green button that flashes. It doesn't match the sales page colors, but it's pretty.

      They both look shiny too. Flashy and shiny. Pretty.

      So far, the purple one is doing better, but the green one is catching up. In any event, they are different niches, so that may not be a fair comparison.

      I subscribe to the notion that people like pretty, shiny, flashy things. And they like pushing pretty, shiny, flashy things. But since that would leave fingerprints on their screen, I'm guessing they'd resort to clicking pretty, shiny, flashy things.

      Either that, or they get mesmerized and sit there and watch them all day.

      Maybe that's bringing sales down.

      I should probably test that.

      But I like the pretty, shiny, flashy buttons.

      It's a real conundrum.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ellen C Braun
    Thanks Kevin, and thanks Ryan as well.

    I just downloaded Ryan's 43 split-testing report, and promptly saved it in my "to-read" file.

    Anonymous Affiliate- you make a wise point. How many of us would truly make a change in our buying patterns based upon colors? C'mon, we base our decisions on value, reputation, price, etc- not color schemes- unless we're working specifically as designers!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter View Post

    Ya know, there is a disturbing trend that seems to go on in the internet marketing niche.

    If you're a newbie, make sure to listen to this:

    Just because something works for one product in one niche doesn't mean it will work for every product in every niche.

    Case in point: The Big A** ORANGE "ADD TO CART" Button

    Ryan Deiss published a product with the results of lots of tests he did on his promotions. One of those involved a big orange "ADD TO CART" button.

    All of a sudden, on every sales page I see, there is a huge a** orange "ADD TO CART" button.

    Then my clients start asking WHY DON'T THEY GET ONE OF THOSE HUGE A** ORANGE ADD TO CART BUTTONS?

    So I did a test. Yup, I actually did a test. Started it August 11 and finished it yesterday.

    I tested 14 different buttons on one product promotion. You know what I found?

    THERE WAS A BUTTON THAT CLOSED 21.9% MORE SALES THAN THE FABLED BIG A** ORANGE "ADD TO CART" BUTTON

    So was Ryan wrong? Is he intentionally misleading folks?

    I doubt it. In his tests, with his products and his sales letters his big a** orange add to cart button closed more sales.

    But that doesn't mean it will work for you. It might. It might not. Test that puppy.

    (And don't ask me what button did best--I ain't tellin'. At least, not for free.)
    How much traffic did you test this on?
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    • Profile picture of the author milan
      Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

      How much traffic did you test this on?
      I wonder why nobody asked this question before? 21.9% more sales is a SUPER HUGE improvement just for subtle changes on a "buy now" button.

      I mean, I completely agree with the OP's point, but the numbers just don't seem right. Tests need to be properly done in order to have any value and meaning.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
        Originally Posted by milan View Post

        I wonder why nobody asked this question before? 21.9% more sales is a SUPER HUGE improvement just for subtle changes on a "buy now" button.

        I mean, I completely agree with the OP's point, but the numbers just don't seem right. Tests need to be properly done in order to have any value and meaning.
        That's why I asked it because I'm always curious as to how the numbers were arrived at. I'm not assuming anything about the OP. It's just that the vast majority of people who ask me to take a look at their testing techniques don't do it correctly. They'll test 20, 30 or even 50 instances. Rarely is that statisically significant. Sometimes they don't even use a control. Sometimes we don't agree, philosophically, on the methodology (multi-variate verus single versus Godzilla vs King Kong...whatever). Good times.

        There was a pretty popular infocourse that had a section about PPC and said that "testing 30 instances" should be good enough. That made me cringe. While some testing variables can be relative they made it sound like 30 instances was good everytime.

        I've had way too much Holiday Blend coffee today, I can't stop typing.........

        RoD
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Brock
    What's funny to me is that the color of a button can effect a sale.

    I dont think ive ever been to a sales letter and have been like 'oh the botton isn't orange...im not buying!'

    I'm betting it has more to do with visibility more than anything else?
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      I don't care if the Pope tells me something works. It still gets tested.
      3 billion Hindus, Muslims and Bhuddists can't all be wrong, can they? :p

      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Did you know that 100% of people that are colorblind can't see orange as a distinct color? I BET that if you tested them with blue and orange, that there would be no difference! I could see how consistancy could help.

      Steve
      In high school, I had a math teacher that was was known for wearing garish color combinations - and that was in the early 1970's when you had to go a long way to be garish.

      One day, he showed wearing - and I do not lie, I remember it 30+ years later - electric blue pants, a red and green striped shirt and a neon orange tie. One of the girls in class finally asked him about it. That's when he admitted he was colorblind, and his combinations looked fine to him. It was congenital, so even describing it to him had no context.

      ----

      Bringing this post back on track, I ran one test some years ago and the color of the buy button didn't matter much - as long as the colors were the same as every other link on the page. For example, a button with blue text on a white background with a blue border 1 pixel wide. When you ran the mouse over it, the text and the border turned red. Since it matched the conventional linking color scheme, I believe that's why it won.

      Just another possibility to test...
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  • Profile picture of the author Paule123
    Either visibility or how large the button is and where it is positioned on the page will determine how it is used......
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  • Profile picture of the author jeffdean9297
    Hah this is a great post. It all comes back to testing (Which most people don't want to take the time to do)
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  • Profile picture of the author claytons
    It's the same with pricing ending in a "7"...I'm guilty of it too...it's just a reflex now :-)

    Good post...reminds me I can be a knucklehead sometimes.
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    • Profile picture of the author gotdmw
      this is an awesome post
      all the big dogs are coming out on this one

      i didn't realize how closely this forum is monitored by some of the big im'ers
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Kevin -

        Excellent points but there is something else at work when you mention the big orange button. A unique method is only unique once. After that, it's a copy and the testing of the original doesn't apply.

        I expect you were one of the few who actually tested recreating the big orange button while others decided Ryan's initial testing was good enough for them. The big orange button stood out - until it was lost in a sea of big orange buttons.

        Maybe Ryan's message was lost in interpretation. Maybe what worked was "big" or "orange" or just "something totally different in appearance".


        kay
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  • Profile picture of the author Frank Bruno
    Too many marketers convalute processes......

    The best converting "Button" I've found that has been working and pulling the best conversions for years and thats a call to action using a blue underlined hyperlink.


    Frank Bruno

    P.S- I believe Perry Blecher was the one who came out with the orange button called the "belcher button". Now Ryan and Perry are lovers, I mean friends.
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    • Originally Posted by Frank Bruno View Post

      Too many marketers convalute processes......

      The best converting "Button" I've found that has been working and pulling the best conversions for years and thats a call to action using a blue underlined hyperlink.


      Frank Bruno

      P.S- I believe Perry Blecher was the one who came out with the orange button called the "belcher button". Now Ryan and Perry are lovers, I mean friends.
      Frank, you crack me up!
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    • Profile picture of the author Franck Silvestre
      Yep. This works well. And this will be one my test for 2010. Thank you for the reminder.

      Franck

      Originally Posted by Frank Bruno View Post

      Too many marketers convalute processes......

      The best converting "Button" I've found that has been working and pulling the best conversions for years and thats a call to action using a blue underlined hyperlink.


      Frank Bruno

      P.S- I believe Perry Blecher was the one who came out with the orange button called the "belcher button". Now Ryan and Perry are lovers, I mean friends.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    I've usually decided to buy long before I get to the button. By the time I get that far down the page the price is the only factor left that influences my decision.

    I wasn't going to post this message, but then I saw the button was red, so I changed my mind.
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  • Profile picture of the author MR.MOE
    I think it depends on what your selling. Maybe you'll get customers that love the color orange and will keep buying your product haha.

    Moe
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  • Profile picture of the author Louise Green
    I think I've found the perfect button to keep everyone happy..



    Or alienate them. Hmm.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Louise Evans View Post

      I think I've found the perfect button to keep everyone happy.
      It's a "Bi Now" button!

      Okay, I apologise for that.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Sounds like some of y'all are hitting the eggnog a little early. So please pour me a cup so I can catch up...
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        • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
          Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

          Sounds like some of y'all are hitting the eggnog a little early. So please pour me a cup so I can catch up...
          Yeppers. Some of us are just getting started......
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  • Profile picture of the author paulie888
    Kevin, great post! We all too often take whatever the big IMers say as gospel truth that is infallible, but this obviously dispels that myth. There are so many variables involved with conversion on a webpage, and unless you're deploying that button on an IDENTICAL webpage, you cannot definitively say that the big orange button would convert better.

    This just goes to show that there's absolutely no substitute for testing (especially split-testing if you can) on your OWN site, no matter how much a pain in the butt that can be!
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