Why Do So Many People Think Anything With Marketing Has No Value?

48 replies
Having a look through the discussion forum recently, there has been a LOT of discussion, some of it not too pleasant to Messers Reese, Kern and Robbins about some free valuable stuff that they gave away.

They have been totally upfront about this being a marketing build up (a teaser trailer if you will) and the information itself seems to have fallen by the wayside - dismissed as marketing dog food or something.

I've see this happen time and time again with other products, some of my own. The same happens with optin lists and other freebies.

There seems to be a strong subsection of marketers who really don't like being marketed to and bizarrely see any free information given away as part of a launch as lacking any value by default. This has happened to me

If there had been a 20 or 30 dollar charge for the information, a lot more people would be singing its praises. The sad and bizarre truth is that peoples value perception of free information is totally warped.

Example - a long time ago, I gave away a free CPA report that had nothing but complaints. The grammar wasn't good enough, the design was poor. People wanted more information, such as how to write HTML, which was totally out of the scope of the book.

People scoffed at the amounts I made (which I thought were ok) and took the time to send me long winded complaints.

A few years ago, I sold 20 of these reports at $90. No refund requests, no support tickets. I suspect a lot of these people took action and implemented. I don't think that any of the freebie seekers did (although I can't be sure).

Maybe the difference is - we need to take the freebie based stuff and add darn clear disclaimers:

'I am giving you this to make money down the line'

Without that, I've found I get a lot of 'cranks' with an opinion and a lack of action seems to pipe up. They get something for free and then do nothing with it.

I'm not saying this to complain, rather to suggest that it says something very interesting about the motivations of people who pay versus those that get freebie reports.
#marketing #people
  • Profile picture of the author ExRat
    Hi Steve,

    They have been totally upfront about this being a marketing build up (a teaser trailer if you will) and the information itself seems to have fallen by the wayside - dismissed as marketing dog food or something.
    There seems to be a strong subsection of marketers who really don't like being marketed to and bizarrely see any free information given away as part of a launch.
    You seem to be contradicting yourself - first it's a launch, then it's not a launch. A bit like the thread itself.

    I've avoided posting my feelings on the behaviour of some of the people in that thread, but if pushed, I will.

    Forums are full of 'cranks with opinions' but they're also full of intelligent, rational people with opinions - some of which may differ greatly from yours.

    Some people find offence in those that find ANY fault with their 'heroes'. Others find offence in trickery, and blatant toady-ism. We are all different.

    I've watched all the sly comments in those two threads, and I've seen exactly what's going on, and I've made note of all the utter hypocrites and the people who are totally contradicting themselves.

    Up till now, I'm not biting back. But as I said, I will, if pushed.

    As I always have done, I look out for impressionable newbies who might be misled. I can handle all of the accusations of being a whiner and a hater. The fact is, I'm neither. I just tell the truth - but some people here find that offensive.

    My point (again) - some of the behaviour from people in those threads was disgusting - and I'm not talking about the 'haters', I'm talking about the 'hater-haters.'

    Thoughts?
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    Roger Davis

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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Peters Benn
    Hey Roger!

    I'm not sure I understand your post too well I feel like I am missing half the conversation.

    I agree about the contradiction bit - that's bad writing on my part though. What I should have said is that some people dismiss a freebie (which almost always part of a launch) because it is part of marketing effort.

    In other words - for some, that lowers the percieved value. That I find interesting, not so much as a criticism but from a 'make money' point of view.

    I wasn't really addressing the 'haters' or hater haters, although I think some of the comments against Reese were a little in poor taste.

    The 'cranks' comment was more related to people getting freebies - than those threads.

    I'm a tad disturbed about this:

    'You seem to be contradicting yourself'

    and then:

    'I've watched all the sly comments in those two threads, and I've seen exactly what's going on, and I've made note of all the utter hypocrites and the people who are totally contradicting themselves.'



    I'd hope your not referring to me here - I don't think you are? Again, I feel somewhat lost - I've seen exactly what's going on. What is going on? No doubt I being dense, but I don't know what this refers to?

    As I said, my bad post might not have indicated it, but I was talking more about marketing lessons than a direct comment on the video threads.

    I'd like to know why you are you are making note of those that posted in that thread and why you mention it . It seems contrarian and interesting but I am having a hard time understanding it or relating it to my equally unclear (doh) post.
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Steve,

      No, they weren't aimed at you - those comments were at a certain group of people, plus one in particular who I have lost all respect for. There's one thing worse than a bunch of manipulators, and that's their cronies who try and silence any detractors in the hope that they might find favour - historically, those people are lethal.

      I did aim the 'contradiction' comment at you, but it seemed ironic that in the two quotes you seemed to be saying conflicting things - the same conflicting things that were running through ALL of the other threads - it's a launch, but it's an altruistic one. Yes it's a launch, but only because we love to help people...blah....

      As for the 'sly' comments, that's to all of those people who drop sly comments in towards anyone who dares to criticise, when a bunch of forum-absentees suddenly turn up to promote their launch (as usual), under the guise of 'saving graces.'

      In one thread one of them says it was a spur of the moment decision, in another thread another one of them is arguing that they've been planning it longer than anyone previously imagined. Throw in a bleeding heart story, and suddenly half of the forum are acting like mass-controlled sheep. I find it embarrassing to be associated in any way with such behaviour.

      On one hand he's telling us he hasn't been able to do any work or finish projects for ages due to personal difficulties - yet the whole thing is about 'following through' on projects. Bizarre!

      I held back from commenting, but as more and more people create new threads 'towing the company line' and throwing insults at those who dared to criticise - it's hard not to bite through one's lip. I actually didn't criticise anyone in those threads - I paid him a compliment. But I was ignored (no problem with that) and I happened to agree with many who criticised - I thought the videos were drab, unhelpful, thinly-disguised promotions and of no use to man nor beast. I've seen better free WSOs.

      Sorry if you took the full backlash from it - it wasn't intended that way. I hope that explains. Interested to hear your (or anyone's) thoughts. I'm sure there are a few people with strong opinions to the contrary floating about. I'm always interested in a good discussion.
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      Roger Davis

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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Wow...sounds like I missed a good one.

        Anybody got a link to this thread?

        I need some entertainment for the day.
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi Steven W,

          Where've you been? I couldn't find your posts the other day and thought you'd been 'terminated'.

          Just look for any of the many Tony Robbins video threads.
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          Roger Davis

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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            Hi Steven W,

            Where've you been? I couldn't find your posts the other day and thought you'd been 'terminated'.

            Just look for any of the many Tony Robbins video threads.
            Are you serious? Because I had many people on my list tell me all my
            threads were coming up invalid.

            I had a feeling something was very wrong.
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      • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi Steve,

        No, they weren't aimed at you - those comments were at a certain group of people, plus one in particular who I have lost all respect for. There's one thing worse than a bunch of manipulators, and that's their cronies who try and silence any detractors in the hope that they might find favour - historically, those people are lethal.
        Agreed, the verbiage I read from some folks supporting any and all actions just because (insert big name) did it is pitiful. I actually unsubscribed from a recent thread about some BS marketing on a recent product launch because it was a total waste of my time, I just let the myopic guru love fest continue without my input, you do feel like telling some folk to go get a room.

        I fail to see what the problem is to praise when you feel it's applicable and criticise when it's not. The one that amuses me is the stereotypical response along the lines of " people like you will never get anywhere, you just criticise..." It's so predictable and hopelessly inaccurate but it's churned out constantly, typically by people who couldn't make a full time living online if their life depended on it.

        It certainly does get tedious whenever anything is said that doesn't toe the company line that you get half a dozen holier than thou's throwing a hissy fit over anything that doesn't fit their exact definition of the product/person/theory etc.

        I would say some of the most succesful people in the world question everything they do and what they see around them, blindly accepting everything is for the foolish.

        I guess we differ slightly in that apart from some intial dross I quite enjoyed the FK , JR, TR vids, but I hear your point entirely.

        Good post Roger.
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        • Profile picture of the author Julian Lockhart
          Originally Posted by SimonHarrison View Post

          The one that amuses me is the stereotypical response along the lines of " people like you will never get anywhere, you just criticise..." It's so predictable and hopelessly inaccurate but it's churned out constantly, typically by people who couldn't make a full time living online if their life depended on it.
          Watch out you are almost trafficking the very thing that amuses you.

          and I agree with most of what you said.
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      • Profile picture of the author John_Reese
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Throw in a bleeding heart story, and suddenly half of the forum are acting like mass-controlled sheep. I find it embarrassing to be associated in any way with such behaviour.

        On one hand he's telling us he hasn't been able to do any work or finish projects for ages due to personal difficulties - yet the whole thing is about 'following through' on projects. Bizarre!
        So basically you're calling me a liar?

        As if I 'invented' the thoughts and feelings that I expressed to try and manipulate people? You've gotta be kidding me. I took a moment to share some personal stuff because I thought it could help others relate. And despite what you may believe, it wasn't easy for me to share all of that stuff.

        That initial video was about getting people to take action after they invest in and/or learn new marketing materials. That certainly hasn't been MY problem. I've worked over 100 hours a week for nearly 15 YEARS online. So I took a bit of a hiatus for a few years. I think I deserved it and also had some personal stuff to deal with.

        Furthermore, which goes against much of your rant... THIS ISN'T EVEN MY PRODUCT. I am not being compensated in any way, shape, or form. My only involvement is as an affiliate (like many others) and I only make something from it if my customers & subscribers decide to subscribe with my link - which I certainly have not posted on the Warrior Forum.

        I was asked to participate in this product by Tony's company. I had a meeting with Tony and his staff and spent a full day with him. I sincerely liked him, his intentions, and what he's all about. I was honored to be a part of the project because it's top-notch.

        As for all the mass-controlling and supposed 'manipulation' of newbies, etc. I think the overanalysis of marketing campaigns has become ABSURD. Like the comments someone made about Tony sitting in a higher chair above Frank and I on the couch. As if that was planned or something. I'll let people in on a secret... that decision was made in 2 seconds because there was no other way to get the shot easily. The chair Tony is sitting in is the chair I had sat in for my interview I just did with Tony sitting in a similar chair that's right next to it.

        Anyway, the bottom line is this... Roger, I don't post much on this forum anymore (like I did a lot for years before you were ever here) because of comments like the ones you just made towards me. There are a lot of other solid marketers that don't post either because of the heavy NEGATIVITY towards them. And I'm not talking about scammers and unethical marketers. I'm talking about people with thousands of success stories that have tons of customers that love their quality products.

        -John Reese
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        • Profile picture of the author danger-ranger
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          • Profile picture of the author ExRat
            Hi John,

            So basically you're calling me a liar?
            No. In reference to the part you quoted, it seemed strange that the whole premise was about getting people to follow through with their purchases and take action, yet your posts were expressing the exact opposite. I sympathise with your hardships, but everyone has them - even those people who are struggling to create an online business - the ones that I was discussing.

            I am not being compensated in any way, shape, or form. My only involvement is as an affiliate
            If I point out the incongruence in that statement, am I calling you a liar?

            As for all the mass-controlling and supposed 'manipulation' of newbies, etc. I think the overanalysis of marketing campaigns has become ABSURD.
            I don't see it as being that absurd. If you were to immerse yourself in the forum community, you would quickly see that a majority of people at the lower end of the marketing spectrum regularly find themselves going back to examine purchases they have made, to try and work out how they missed so many things before they clicked buy.

            They discover small print, hidden print, inconsistencies between the product description and the product actually delivered, hidden charges they never expected whacking their credit card and a whole host of other things I could drone on about.

            THIS is ONE of the reasons why large IM launches come under such scrutiny. MOST top level IMers encourage lower level IMers to examine the sales process in depth. Are they supposed to remain tight lipped about all of this in public? Is it a taboo subject? Well if there is any kind of community within IM forums, then it is based around that - people telling others what to look out for in order to avoid getting burnt, wasting time etc.

            Can you see why it's not so absurd? It's actually quite logical. I appreciate that it might not be very comfortable for those having their actions and work dissected, but surely that's what everyone takes on if they choose to become a 'public' figure and leverage that exposure for their own benefit?

            The reason 'mass control' comes into it is because I find it absurd that people can buy a product from someone that teaches persuasion techniques, then a few months later, when that person is launching something else, people argue that they're not being 'persuaded' and that the person is acting out of altruism. That's not a criticism of Mr. Kern, it can only be a compliment towards his powers of persuasion.

            But I hope you can see that aspects of the response to it are purely 'protective' - the type that you would expect in a 'community' environment. I'm not telling anyone to buy my products instead.

            I don't post much on this forum anymore (like I did a lot for years before you were ever here) because of comments like the ones you just made towards me.
            Well that's not my intention. If you remember, we had this conversation before, I took some of the ongoing 'rap' for being a hater and driving people like yourself away, and I did consequently spend some time avoiding most of the rows, negativity and attacks on top level IMers.

            But as I explained above, as an active member here I felt compelled to respond, and my initial response was directly at lower level IMers and the way I felt they were behaving - in two camps - the ones I said were acting like sheep, and the ones I referred to as cohorts.

            I too felt like not posting here as much after seeing the the normal functioning of the forum come to a virtual standstill while half the place ran to grovel to a group of people who had turned up out of the blue, while also attacking anyone who dared to disagree with the 'party line' of this group. New threads kept appearing on the subject and it seemed like everything else came to a halt, while 'anticipation' was being manufactured.

            There are a lot of other solid marketers that don't post either because of the heavy NEGATIVITY towards them. And I'm not talking about scammers and unethical marketers. I'm talking about people with thousands of success stories that have tons of customers that love their quality products.
            I understand your point, and I would repeat (as I said in the other thread) you seem like a decent, genuine person (especially in comparison to some of the others at 'the top').

            But as you're bringing up the old 'because of you I might not bother coming here', I'm compelled to point out to you that it's not just a case of 'good guy top level IMers getting slammed by anonymous nobodies.'

            There is an obvious clique of top level IMers who launch products together and often back each other up on this forum.

            Some of this clique are a little more regular at visiting/posting than the others, and due to your (presumeably) less frequent visits, you might be missing the way that they behave and how it affects the way the 'clique' is viewed and treated by some of us.

            You've got the 'cohorts', who are like chameleons and if there's a launch happening, you see a totally different side of them - not a pleasant side.

            You've got guru A (no names) who comes in here on a regular basis with the most arrogant attitude of almost anyone on here - even me. I don't think I've ever seen him post without a belittling, condescending 'you're a loser' tone towards anyone who happens to criticise a guru.

            And then there's 'clinging desperately onto his semi-guru status' guru B (no names) who has an epileptic fit if anyone criticises him, swears he will never come here again, then turns up again about a week later to produce the same performance again.

            If anyone dares to ask about his product in the review forum, he hi-jacks the thread, has another fit, and if it doesn't go his way (it never does) he and his cohorts get the thread deleted.

            My point - I admit that I let rip in this thread. But it's not just a one way thing. There are good reasons behind it, and on some of the points, I know that I am speaking for at least a few others with the points that I make.

            (I'm also fully aware that now that this thread has resurfaced, there will be a whole bunch of people who totally disagree with me as well - such is life.)

            The way that some people from the 'upper echelons' behave in their marketing and their forum posting, directly relates to the responses they get on here.

            I don't think there's anyone who responds negatively towards top level IMers purely for kicks - there's always a reason, and the majority of the time I would wager that it is related to them spending money on a product and the resultant buyer's remorse that they felt which was NOT purely down to their own gullability or stupidity - they felt deceived or conned.

            This money is investment money for their business, which may be in short supply, and it's directly related to them hoping to achieve their dreams and aspirations. If someone invests four figures in a course, they are obviously hoping that it is life changing for them. If they end up disappointed, can you not understand where their anger comes from? I can.

            Thanks for your reasonable response to some harsh criticisms. It actually makes quite a difference to see that and is appreciated.
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            Roger Davis

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            • Profile picture of the author John_Reese
              Roger,

              Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

              And just to clarify... I didn't mean to imply that I stopped using the forum solely because of you. I was referring to 'those types of negative comments' - which others have posted as well.

              I just wish this forum could get back to hardcore marketing discussions about STRATEGY and specific methods. There seems to be too many personal attacks and discussions about 'theories' of why someone is doing this or that, etc.

              I mean... if all someone can post about is the fact that I look unhappy or stressed or whatever... what does that have to do with marketing? How is that going to help (or not help) someone that's watching the video content?

              As far as the IM industry is concerned, I'd like to think that the majority is made up of GREAT PEOPLE. I've met a lot of amazing people that are involved with IM - whether they sell to the IM market or other niches. There are honestly some good, decent, smart folks in this business.

              However... on the other side of the coin there are a few ****HEADS selling to the IM market. They are definitely in the minority but some of them get a lot of exposure. These are people I consider nothing but OPPORTUNISTS. They just release products (and positioning) to make money at any expense. They honestly have very little focus on if what they sell is going to help anyone at all.

              Fortunately, this industry has a pretty decent track record for dealing with people like that. They may succeed for awhile but eventually they begin to fade. I think we're starting to see this more and more because of Twitter and other Social Media. Bad news travels extremely fast online.

              The crazy thing about all the anti-guru discussions and some of the comments I've just made about some of the knuckleheads in this market is this... it's actually pretty EASY to make a lot of money selling to the IM market if someone just focuses on delivering products, systems, software, etc. that will actually HELP people. It's really not that hard.

              -John Reese
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              • Profile picture of the author ExRat
                Hi John,

                Likewise - thankyou for the thoughtful reply.

                I'd just like to address this part -

                I just wish this forum could get back to hardcore marketing discussions about STRATEGY and specific methods. There seems to be too many personal attacks and discussions about 'theories' of why someone is doing this or that, etc.
                Of course, there need to be elements of persuasion in successful marketing. But there's also a line that can easily be crossed.

                I imagine if any person of reasonable mind has been watching the review forum, and has analysed most (say 75%) of the recent big launches which have emanated from the top level of IM (not the fringes, I'm talking about *most* of the recent big launches that have been promoted by, or 'testimonialled' by the majority of the mainstream big players) and the responses of the people who have spent their investment money on them then it's clear to them that there have been big issues recently.

                Although many of the debates in this forum can understandably be seen from both sides by most reasonable individuals, there has been a tendency in recent times (think - from around the time when 'continuity' became an IM launch buzzword) for the marketing of some of these launches to obviously and clearly cross the ethical line - I don't mean the 'pushy' line - I mean the 'deception' line.

                I can't name names due to forum rules, but it's been noticeable that the general money paying IM masses have been (on occasion) treated with open, obvious and outright contempt.

                Due to those forum rules and the abuse of them, many of these discussions in the review forum have been deleted, but many of these deleted threads remain in some of our memories. Also, many of the commenters in those threads ONLY posted there because they could get NO response from support from the product sellers - so many, that it now appears to be a continuity scam tactic to have a non-functioning support system. Nasty business...'borrowed' from the rebill floggers - who are now being 'FTC-ed'.

                My point - I too wish for the same things as you mentioned above. But I have less ability to make that happen than someone like yourself. (I'm not suggesting that you have caused any of these problems, but I'm pretty sure you know most of those who have).

                It will most likely occur when those who are at the top, who are generally put on pedestals by most people when they show their faces here, decide that they not going to do the things that supply the 'fuel' for all of the negativity that arises - OR promote them as a JV/affiliate.

                But while they are behaving as they do, it is the duty of those who have some longevity here (and who are not in anyone's 'pockets') to warn others (as best they can) that all is not as it seems with some of these big launches.

                In general, are they (newbies) better off spending four figures on a launch, or buying 100 WSOs and spreading that money around to 100 other people at a similar level, who in turn are funding the forum itself via WSO payments?

                Let's face it - we have people going around claiming to be making 6 figures a day in order to sell their high ticket product, and unless I'm mistaken, a lot of highly regarded top level IMers pushed that particular product for a cut - and it turned out to be a huge con, unless I'm mistaken.

                When things like this are occurring, people are going way too far, need to be reined in and a backlash is inevitable.
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                Roger Davis

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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Roger,
                  Do you seriously think that there are people focused on hating?
                  Yes. There are.

                  They're not a huge percentage of the people in any group, but they're out there. And there are a lot of them. Mean, spiteful little creatures, whose primary source of feeling competent is the perceived "destruction" of those who do better than them in some way. Or vengeful creeps with chips on their shoulders, who create problems just to have enemies to attack. This supports their belief that their unhappiness is the result of someone else's actions.

                  There are plenty of people with legitimate complaints, too. And a lot of folks who are confused, and sound negative out of frustration. Many more of them than the deliberate haters.

                  But yeah. There are people focused on hating.
                  And people wonder why there's a groundswell of anti-guru sentiment?
                  If it's always been there, is that a groundswell?

                  That stuff has been going on since the first celebrity grew visibility. It's been going on in this forum since before I joined. It looks bigger now because there are more members.

                  If you could see the IP addresses of the posters, you'd be surprised at how often there are multiple nasty and anonymous posters logging in from the same IP.

                  That's not a groundswell. That's an ambush.

                  Mike,

                  The original number, which was very high (over 75% for sure, and I believe over 90%) related to physical books. The majority of books sold are never read past the first or second chapter. That's just reading. A very significant number of people who do read the whole thing still do nothing with it.

                  In my experience, the number of people who buy various ebooks and manuals and actually use the information they receive from any specific product is tiny.

                  Part of that is natural inertia. Another part is that the physical book is at least "in their face," sitting there reminding them it needs reading. How much easier is it to forget that the file is sitting on your drive?


                  Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author ExRat
                    Hi Paul,

                    I agree. Not sure which one describes me best

                    If it's always been there, is that a groundswell?

                    That stuff has been going on since the first celebrity grew visibility. It's been going on in this forum since before I joined. It looks bigger now because there are more members.
                    When you say 'celebrity', do you mean offline ones? Because even though top level IMers are celebrities in our little bubble on the internet, I think there's an important difference in the transaction that takes place between the two types of celeb and their buyers.

                    Offline, people might buy products endorsed by their favourite celeb, but it's not often sold on the basis of 'by buying this, you can emulate my achievements' - whereas the online ones often are, which I think introduces a different dynamic when the buyer realises that the product is not quite as described.

                    IM is a funny market because the lower tier are budding higher-tierers but for an economy to exist, there have to be transactions - yet the buyer is told to study the product AND the mechanism. For me this gets really twisted when the product is about persuasion. So sellers end up saying (in so many words) - 'I'm not trying to persuade you here.....by the way, check out the cool persuasion techniques I used on you in my pitch - the pitch IS the product and the product IS the pitch.

                    It makes me think of a scenario involving a seminar to teach hypnotism -

                    Come along, relax and have a great time at our seminar while we teach you how to hypnotise people to do exactly as you want.

                    Be sure to bring your credit card

                    On a different note, regarding 'haters' of offline celebs, on this side of the pond it's clear that the media is almost solely responsible for stirring up the hate in the first place, as well as falsely reporting it - in order to tap into the 'hater' inside people in order to sell more product.

                    In the UK the expression 'we build 'em up to knock 'em down' is used and often incorrectly attributed to the public by the media, when in fact it is the media itself that does this. The public believe this, and through water-cooler type hater comments where they are simply agreeing with what they have read, they confirm to each other that it's actually themselves who are doing the hating.

                    Away from the celebs, the media also use this to create polarisation which then turns into loyalty towards one side or the other - often for celebs (in break ups for example), but also with whatever political party the newspaper is a thinly disguised PR machine for.
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                    Roger Davis

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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Peters Benn
    I think you were spot on about my contradiciton. Ooops

    With 'those' videos - I don't think reusing the BMW footage from the triangle of trust / Reese sneak attack video was helpful - perhaps better to start things afresh and make clear the nature of the video. I think there has probably been a connection there for a fair number of years and clarity and directness might have been a better approach.

    There are actually some great free WSOs out there but if you aren't king of the hill, you will never have threads like the aforementioned going into overdrive.

    Actually, as far as I remember, these threads going crazy over free videos didn't use to occur. I wonder why it happens now - Mass Control in action?
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Steve,

      Actually, as far as I remember, these threads going crazy over free videos didn't use to occur. I wonder why it happens now - Mass Control in action?
      In the 'old days' they weren't video. That's the only difference. The gravy train was always there.

      If you look at the biggest thread, what I referred to is continuing. People who *think* that they are ingratiating themselves and improving their chances of JVing with a big dog are still laying into the little guy who dared to comment.

      I don't know about anyone else - I participate here, but I also read a lot of other forums and see what the market in general thinks and says. Anyone coming here for the first time who saw those threads would think that everyone here is an absolute noob, who doesn't know how to run a business and is waiting with baited breath for the next guru launch, in the hope of buying into the dream.

      I'm sorry if people don't like it, but I don't want to be associated with that type of profile. And beyond that, I spend my time here trying to help people who are struggling in online business to develop their own initiative, independence and belief in their own abilities - along with ways to use whatever funds they have to get the maximum return, so that they can invest it in worthwhile tools and systems rather than over-priced, fluff-filled guru bumf.

      Even if it causes my downfall here, I will only ever 'say it as I see it' and would never lower myself for any amount of money to change that and start playing 'follow the leader.' It's very interesting to observe those who would (not directed at you Steve).

      Hi Steve W,

      Yes I'm serious. They weren't here and couldn't be found by searching. I thought you'd got the bullet. Don't sweat it - it might have just been a glitch. Not sure if mine will have much longevity after this....I'll see if yours are still here now.

      Edit - yep, they're there now.
      Signature


      Roger Davis

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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi Steve,

        In the 'old days' they weren't video. That's the only difference. The gravy train was always there.

        If you look at the biggest thread, what I referred to is continuing. People who *think* that they are ingratiating themselves and improving their chances of JVing with a big dog are still laying into the little guy who dared to comment.

        I don't know about anyone else - I participate here, but I also read a lot of other forums and see what the market in general thinks and says. Anyone coming here for the first time who saw those threads would think that everyone here is an absolute noob, who doesn't know how to run a business and is waiting with baited breath for the next guru launch, in the hope of buying into the dream.

        I'm sorry if people don't like it, but I don't want to be associated with that type of profile. And beyond that, I spend my time here trying to help people who are struggling in online business to develop their own initiative, independence and belief in their own abilities - along with ways to use whatever funds they have to get the maximum return, so that they can invest it in worthwhile tools and systems rather than over-priced, fluff-filled guru bumf.

        Even if it causes my downfall here, I will only ever 'say it as I see it' and would never lower myself for any amount of money to change that and start playing 'follow the leader.' It's very interesting to observe those who would (not directed at you Steve).

        Hi Steve W,

        Yes I'm serious. They weren't here and couldn't be found by searching. I thought you'd got the bullet. Don't sweat it - it might have just been a glitch. Not sure if mine will have much longevity after this....I'll see if yours are still here now.

        Edit - yep, they're there now.

        Roger, I wouldn't worry about your longevity here. You're a breath of
        fresh air around this place. I agree with you on a lot of issues more than
        you realize.

        I'm just glad I'm not invisible anymore, because that has never been a
        problem for me.
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi Steve W,

          Roger, I wouldn't worry about your longevity here. You're a breath of
          fresh air around this place. I agree with you on a lot of issues more than
          you realize.

          I'm just glad I'm not invisible anymore, because that has never been a
          problem for me.
          Thanks - I appreciate it - but in fairness, it isn't you who decides - it's the gaffer! And apparently, he likes to 'screw haters'

          I think you probably clogged the system up - it doesn't know how to count past 10k
          Signature


          Roger Davis

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          • Profile picture of the author ExRat
            Hi Mukul,

            I saw that thread and stopped reading as it turned into a bashfest towards Reese.
            Perhaps you should re-read it - I think you're mistaken. Even Davebo was nice to him

            I understand there are haters and most are likely not successful since they focus on hating instead of doing what it takes to succeed.
            Who told you that? A guru?

            If people don't do what it takes to succeed, they quickly disappear from here and end up upselling fries.

            Do you seriously think that there are people focused on hating?

            I prescribe a visit to the review forum and to have a good read there. You'll find many disappointed newbies who have been led up the garden path and wasted their time and energy on 'hot air' products.

            If someone tries to help them avoid that, does that make them a hater?
            Signature


            Roger Davis

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            • Profile picture of the author Mukul Verma
              Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

              Hi Mukul,



              Perhaps you should re-read it - I think you're mistaken. Even Davebo was nice to him



              Who told you that? A guru?

              If people don't do what it takes to succeed, they quickly disappear from here and end up upselling fries.

              Do you seriously think that there are people focused on hating?

              I prescribe a visit to the review forum and to have a good read there. You'll find many disappointed newbies who have been led up the garden path and wasted their time and energy on 'hot air' products.
              Thanks,

              I do not think people are hater on purpose, just like anything they build habbits and patterns. What I meant to say is a focus of energy and where people put there energy.

              I REALLY like the WarriorVerified idea as it lets people who talk to and talk prove it and newbie not mislead.

              If someone tries to help them avoid that, does that make them a hater?
              Not at all if they are giving constructive feedback. I would suggest to talk to the product maker first (normally I do not tell a expert how to do it if I have no or little experience with that topic, I would ask what I am doing wrong because I could be missing something).
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            • Profile picture of the author Marian Berghes
              Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

              Hi Mukul,



              Perhaps you should re-read it - I think you're mistaken. Even Davebo was nice to him



              Who told you that? A guru?

              If people don't do what it takes to succeed, they quickly disappear from here and end up upselling fries.

              Do you seriously think that there are people focused on hating?


              I prescribe a visit to the review forum and to have a good read there. You'll find many disappointed newbies who have been led up the garden path and wasted their time and energy on 'hot air' products.

              If someone tries to help them avoid that, does that make them a hater?
              Yes I do, and I have met plenty of them.

              Once they buy a product, they test it for abit...say screw it cus it doesn't work and then come to the forum with "the guru conspiracy to get our money" in mind.

              Abit off topic...I really used to like this forum and read it everyday...but it seems that with each week/month more and more threads appear where people are just fighting for the same old sht that they have been fighting for years maybe.

              I think people need to stop focusing on "uncovering the guru conspiracy to take away all their money" and start focusing and how they can become a leader or whatever and then help the new people how they fell they should be helped.

              I personally don't have anything against any of the "gurus", I think that 90% of their stuff is useful in some way or another.

              Up to this point I have not been disappointed by any of their products and because of that I'm not really into the whole "protecting the newbies from the evil gurus".

              I do believe that there are alot of sht products out there, its just that I have yet to find one that has the signature of a "guru" on it.

              To me, the biggest problem is not that the products are crap, the problem is that most newbies go and buy courses that are out of their league...meaning: I've seen complete newbies go out and buy $1000 products...well ofc hes gonna come screaming that the product is crap and that he doesn't understand it...because he didn't think it trough when he bough it in the first place.

              Anyway...I don't hold a grudge on anyone, I don't claim to be successful...I just think people should think more and act more instead of arguing over some sht that has been going on for ages.

              I am a strong believer of the "protect your mind" concept...and frankly, coming on the forum and seeing people fighting isn't exactly my idea of inspiration or help.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mukul Verma
                Originally Posted by Marian Berghes View Post

                To me, the biggest problem is not that the products are crap, the problem is that most newbies go and buy courses that are out of their league...meaning: I've seen complete newbies go out and buy $1000 products...well ofc hes gonna come screaming that the product is crap and that he doesn't understand it...because he didn't think it trough when he bough it in the first place.
                Agreed.

                No matter how good the product is, no matter what someone teaches you or puts in your hand. Making it works comes from each person.
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              • Profile picture of the author ExRat
                Hi Marian,

                You make some interesting points.

                Up to this point I have not been disappointed by any of their products and because of that I'm not really into the whole "protecting the newbies from the evil gurus".
                That's your choice, but it doesn't necessarily stem just from that type of bad experience - you're making an incorrect assumption.

                It also stems from the memories of way back when I was a newbie - of being totally alone, and absolutely stuck on something. I tried for hours to make 'XYZ' script work, but the instructions were incomplete and the seller wasn't available and had no FAQ or forum. I needed it to work for my business to work - but I was new to this industry and it was tough.

                Sometimes, I took days/weeks to solve problems on my own with only google to help. Other times, I came to places like this and some kind soul helped me out.

                I seem to remember taking time out to answer your questions when you were new here too Marian.

                Now after I went through those 'growing pains', here are just two examples of the kind of situation that gets me kinda riled -

                1) I come in here and I see others in exactly the same boat - totally overwhelmed, 'beaten up' by technology and let down by countless sellers. It gives me great satisfaction to be able to type a few sentences and sometimes totally solve that person's problem - just like others did for me a while back.

                Just because your focus isn't on helping others here, doesn't mean that the people who do so, want others interfering and making it even more difficult to help those people. So as you can see it's not just about being let down by a guru product.

                It's got a lot to do with teaching others to develop initiative and independence - something that is vital for most of us, but not something that gurus teach because - a) it's difficult b) you need to have done it yourself in order to be able to teach it - so consequently, it's annoying to see those newbies being distracted and acting like sheep just because 'XYZ Big Name' waltzes into town in his Lamborghini for his latest 'million dollar launch' and his 'building up of anticipation' tactics. Shy? Introverted? Pah...

                2) After helping those newbs and putting them on the right track, I find threads appearing revolving around gurus and their latest launch. The whole gang appears and 'backs each other up' - IE - lays into anyone who tries to say anything negative - then the cronies join in (by cronies I don't mean 'passers by' - I mean the people who are paid by them in some way to support their PR effort - you know, the ones who used to be sadistic psychos - but they're reborn now). And then the passers by join in.

                And seemingly, even the meekest and mildest old aged pensioner who just happens to be passing by, turns into a green-eyed monster when their favourite guru is 'attacked', and starts tearing strips off anyone in sight.

                If anyone says even the slightest thing with a hint of negativity towards the said guru, they are pounced upon, and their act of negativity is classed as 'hating, attacking and jealousy' by 'losers who spend all their time in forums.'

                FFS!

                Last week I was taking my 'time spent in forums' to help that person - for nothing!

                And this is ALL pre-arranged by the gurus who KNOW exactly what type of situation to create, and exactly how to manipulate it. They sell products called 'mass control' you know

                And everyone and his brother becomes a guru protector, thanking them to death for any statement they make, eulogising profusely about their every fickle word and deed.

                And in the meantime, the real people who aren't gurus, who just happen to give their time to the mundane day-to-day moderation and happenings in the forum on a daily basis, who might even dare to try and advise people not to get sucked in, get abused and scorned if they so much as dare to open their mouths in defiance.

                ...........

                And people wonder why there's a groundswell of anti-guru sentiment?

                Once the launch is over they'll be off into the sunset, no JVs proferred to the underlings who swooned at their feet and protected them, and everyone can get back to normality, selling their WSOs etc - except no-one has any money left, because the bandits have ridden out of town with it all, laughing and swilling tequila leaving us with just a bunch of cheap, postal-damaged DVD cases strewn around like spent shotgun cartridges.

                Arriba!
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                Roger Davis

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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            Hi Steve W,



            Thanks - I appreciate it - but in fairness, it isn't you who decides - it's the gaffer! And apparently, he likes to 'screw haters'
            Well, I'm going to add my 2 cents to this mess.

            Yes, I remember the Tony Robbins thread with the free video not available
            to the general public with the required opt in to view it (I think that's the
            general gist of what was going on).

            Honestly, I am so torn about this whole business, as I have stated many
            times before on this forum.

            I realize that we are all doing what we do, ultimately, to earn a living. We
            are not in the charity business. If we were, trust me, there would be
            better ways to go about it.

            I don't like a lot of the tactics being used and thus, I don't use them.

            But part of the blame has to be put on the people who allow things we
            don't like to go on.

            If we would simply say no to the tactics that we don't like and stop
            buying, the people who do the things that they do would have to find
            another way.

            But we, as in the majority of folks, don't do that. We follow the lambs to
            the slaughter...for whatever reason.

            I did not opt in to see the video. I have no desire to. For that matter, I
            don't do a lot of things that I'm asked to do by the big money makers online
            because I simply don't want to play the game.

            I do understand that I am in a position to be able to do that. I have
            enough smarts to make me enough money (while still being able to look at
            myself in the mirror) without having to buy every shiny new product that
            comes down the pike. Some people, especially those struggling, may feel
            that they don't have that luxury. So they cave in...hoping that this one
            product will put them over the top.

            Forget that most people let this stuff rot on their hard drives. Even the
            ones who actually read the material. most either...

            1. Find it too difficult to implement
            2. Don't understand it and can't get the support they need.
            3. Read it but don't follow through because they're too lazy.

            And I'm sure you can probably come up with a ton of other reasons.

            It's why when I offered 30 days of mentoring for pennies to 20 people,
            only 2 of them even finished the course.

            I don't have an answer for this problem, but the problem won't go away
            unless we make it go away.

            And to do that, we simply have to do 2 things.

            1. Stop being sheep.
            2. Implement what we do know.

            If it sounds simple, in theory it is.

            Practice is a whole other story.
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            • Profile picture of the author KevScarb
              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              Well, I'm going to add my 2 cents to this mess.

              Yes, I remember the Tony Robbins thread with the free video not available
              to the general public with the required opt in to view it (I think that's the
              general gist of what was going on).

              Honestly, I am so torn about this whole business, as I have stated many
              times before on this forum.

              I realize that we are all doing what we do, ultimately, to earn a living. We
              are not in the charity business. If we were, trust me, there would be
              better ways to go about it.

              I don't like a lot of the tactics being used and thus, I don't use them.

              But part of the blame has to be put on the people who allow things we
              don't like to go on.

              If we would simply say no to the tactics that we don't like and stop
              buying, the people who do the things that they do would have to find
              another way.

              But we, as in the majority of folks, don't do that. We follow the lambs to
              the slaughter...for whatever reason.

              I did not opt in to see the video. I have no desire to. For that matter, I
              don't do a lot of things that I'm asked to do by the big money makers online
              because I simply don't want to play the game.

              I do understand that I am in a position to be able to do that. I have
              enough smarts to make me enough money (while still being able to look at
              myself in the mirror) without having to buy every shiny new product that
              comes down the pike. Some people, especially those struggling, may feel
              that they don't have that luxury. So they cave in...hoping that this one
              product will put them over the top.

              Forget that most people let this stuff rot on their hard drives. Even the
              ones who actually read the material. most either...

              1. Find it too difficult to implement
              2. Don't understand it and can't get the support they need.
              3. Read it but don't follow through because they're too lazy.

              And I'm sure you can probably come up with a ton of other reasons.

              It's why when I offered 30 days of mentoring for pennies to 20 people,
              only 2 of them even finished the course.

              I don't have an answer for this problem, but the problem won't go away
              unless we make it go away.

              And to do that, we simply have to do 2 things.

              1. Stop being sheep.
              2. Implement what we do know.

              If it sounds simple, in theory it is.

              Practice is a whole other story.
              Well Said Steven.

              I am new, but using this forum I have found quality information from people like you. So thank you for that.

              The only thing I have done is sign up to see the information from these gurus, not because I am duped, but I find it the best way to watch how they launch a product. I suppose like many others I am on all these lists, it is then interesting for me to see 15 or more emails daily coming in promoting the same product as the launch increases. It creates me a great swipe file, but I am certainly not sucked in.

              Sadly you are right, too many people think there is an easy fix.

              If only it were true !.

              Kev
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Peters Benn
    Hey Roger,

    I do feel sorry for Reese but now also feel like I didn't pay enough attention to those threads. You have certainly revised some of my thoughts by the inconsistencies you raised.

    Would I be right in assuming that these kind of threads don't occur on other forums? I only post here so I guess my view is rather myopic!

    The chance of JVing is virtually 0% with the big dogs - I would hope others would be aware of that - no amount of ingratiating is going to achieve anything.
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    • Profile picture of the author MJ Schaefer
      Steve,

      I don't think these people are 'haters' as much as they are skeptics.

      The truth of the matter is that we all absorb marketing products which teach us 'the tricks of the trade'. Indeed, one of the more famous quotes I can think of is "if a product is good enough, it is good enough." Every autoresponder course/product I have seen is about just getting that visitor onto the list.

      A lot of WSOs have titles like "Make $X in Y days". Or these pretty hardcore forced continuity programs that can be difficult to get out of. The bottom line being...many people do see this as a game where the aim is to make as much money as possible. Notions of 'value' are often seen as a distant second.

      We have the burden of knowledge

      To use one of the figures in your example: if Frank Kern made a couple of killer replies on this forum, which would be free (obviously), I think people would recognise and appreciate the value. If he provided the same content, but in exchange for your name on a list, marketers would think (rightly or wrongly) that he wanted your money.

      So I really don't think it is as negative/hateful as some would make out. Just skepticism given that so many of us know exactly how the game is played. I suppose it is like performing a magic trick to David Copperfield
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    • Profile picture of the author Julian Lockhart
      Originally Posted by Steve Peters Benn View Post


      The chance of JVing is virtually 0% with the big dogs - I would hope others would be aware of that - no amount of ingratiating is going to achieve anything.
      That pokes me the wrong way.

      Just because something is a low probability doesn't mean it's not possible.

      That being said, I think your point was more toward the part about ingratiating themselves wont be the thing that tips the scale in their favor.
      Signature
      Biz Launch Box - Marketing Consultant
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        It may "poke" you wrong - but it's reality.

        Not surprising you could sell something with no complaints yet give it away for free and have people pick it apart. Buying is THEIR decision - saying they bought a bad product is admitting they erred. Some people would rather poke a stick in their eye than admit to falling for sales hype.

        When I see those threads with bootlickers and others trying to gain attention by bashing others....I need fresh air. They both stink. Make no mistake, those arguing about the "worthlessness" of a top dog's offers would drool all over themselves if offered a JV.

        I've watched all the sly comments in those two threads, and I've seen exactly what's going on, and I've made note of all the utter hypocrites and the people who are totally contradicting themselves.
        Exactly - and they don't seem to realize what they are telling us about themselves.

        kay
        Signature
        Every child needs a pet because every family needs an optimist

        Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Peters Benn
    Hey Kazooli,

    It looks like you have an affiliate ID on that link. Care to take it off?
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  • Profile picture of the author Mukul Verma
    Whoa where is the love!!!!

    I saw that thread and stopped reading as it turned into a bashfest towards Reese. I understand there are haters and most are likely not successful since they focus on hating instead of doing what it takes to succeed. I had someone here call me a hypocrite the other day, not a big deal. I took that comment (which was retracted) and used warriorverified to make show I walk the talk. Thanks to that I will likely do better . I am sure Reese has a think skin, it is part of doing what he does, hopefully his wife does not do what Bush's wife did and not let him watch the news

    I take those video as a compliment to IM. Tony Robbins see our industry as the future of making money/business, whatever (yeah we all knew it was) and thats why he is coming here to see what these guys are doing.

    Keep the freebie coming, they got GREAT value if you use them
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  • Profile picture of the author Marian Berghes
    I don't know...everyone has its own opinion and its own experiences and stuff like that.

    But let me just ask you this: Are you familiar with consoles like xbox and playstation?

    People are literally cursing and swearing each other to "protect" their console brand and stuff.

    Do you see Microsoft or Sony giving out some kind of prizes for that? Do you think they should just because you say that xbox is better then ps3?

    I know you might say that this is not relative to our case, but it is...only on a larger scale.

    About the saying no and stop being sheep...that WILL NEVER HAPPEN, NEVER...there will always be sheep and there will always be leaders or whatever you want to call them....its been like that since...forever. What counts is on what side you will be.

    "And this is ALL pre-arranged by the gurus who KNOW exactly what type of situation to create, and exactly how to manipulate it. They sell products called 'mass control' you know"

    I really don't think that they pay people or some sht to come and fight for them or something in forums...thats just how they want their customers to feel about them.

    Again with the xbox example: the xbox had/somewhat still has a very high fail rate and microsoft has a rubbish customer support...yet it is the most played console in the world.

    By offering their users a good experience online and bringing good games to it, people are willing to forget about the very high fail rates and rubbish customer support as long as they have their fun.

    EDIT: yes I remember you answering my questions and I am very grateful to everyone that did...but thats was not my point.

    I am not referring to answering 1 or 2 questions, I just think that the whole idea of "protecting the newbie from the gurus" is abit too much in my eyes...what I do think that newbies should learn is to think more for themselves...to learn how to not fall in every marketing trap, to pay attention when reading a sales letter.

    Ofc if the product seller did something very wrong, people should know about it...but to put them all in the same basket, is just wrong in my opinion.
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Marian,

      But let me just ask you this: Are you familiar with consoles like xbox and playstation?
      I'm playing Gears Of War on the 360 right now.

      I know you might say that this is not relative to our case, but it is...only on a larger scale.
      I honestly don't think it is relative. I was hoping you would show me how, but alas...

      This business is about peoples' careers - what they might spend their lifetimes working towards. It's about real hopes and dreams - the difference between working for the man or deciding your own hours, paycheque and holidays.

      One bad purchase at $3k and some people will be out of the game. Personally, I have never been in that precarious position. But many are.

      How does it compare?

      About the saying no and stop being sheep...that WILL NEVER HAPPEN, NEVER...there will always be sheep and there will always be leaders or whatever you want to call them....its been like that since...forever. What counts is on what side you will be.
      So it's black and white? Only two sides to the coin?

      What about if someone was successful AND they remembered their roots, STILL enjoyed helping newbies and didn't spend their time trying to coax them into spending multiple thousands on products that simply AREN'T worth it - to them OR anyone else?

      Can those people be allowed to exist in your black and white world? Is there any room for shades of grey?

      I really don't think that they pay people or some sht to come and fight for them or something in forums...thats just how they want their customers to feel about them.
      I disagree. It's blatantly obvious. But you don't see it.

      Again with the xbox example: the xbox had/somewhat still has a very high fail rate and microsoft has a rubbish customer support...yet it is the most played console in the world
      There are many problems in the world that have easy solutions, but the solutions are ignored, but none of them change my opinion on the topic at hand - world wars, corporate greed, government beaurocracy, irresponsible parenting or Xbox failure rate. None of them.

      By offering their users a good experience online and bringing good games to it, people are willing to forget about the very high fail rates and rubbish customer support as long as they have their fun.
      So go and spend your money on the next guru circle offering then.

      Just don't expect me to watch days and days of forum threads being started, with people spouting nonsense and others contradicting themselves because they've lost track of what they've said, and with me saying nothing.

      Eventually, after biting my tongue for so long, I will crack and be compelled to state what I see as the truth, for the sake of those people who don't know better and might waste tons of time and go through unnecessary stress just like I did when I got sucked into buying expensive but nonsense products that only hindered rather then helping me.

      Edit -

      Ill tell you how...if you become an affiliate for one of his products and send him alot of sales and then call him and say: "hey its, xyz...you know the affiliate that send you $5000 in sales last month/launch. I think that our relationship can go beyond that point for both of us. You see, I have this product, I would really appreciate if you could take a look at it and tell me what you think"

      If he is not an asshole, he CAN'T ignore you...because you just made him a bunch of money and you essentially proved to him that you know what you are doing.
      With respect Marian, I think you're just trumpetting lines taken directly from guru ebooks. Has this worked for you then? Which guru did you JV with after pushing their product as an affiliate?

      Sure, someone, somewhere followed this method and succeeded with it. Does that mean it's the only way to succeed? You do realise why that line is so commonly trumpetted in this volatile, vocal marketplace, don't you?

      You do realise that there is a whole market of customers out there who can sell your products for you - therefore putting YOU at the top of the pile?

      This whole thing got me riled in the first place because I saw so many people devalueing their own integrity purely 'just in case' there was a slight chance of ingratiating themselves.

      My advice - read ANY book by a real multi-millionaire and they will tell you that that integrity is THE most important factor in business, and also THE most important thing you have left when you lock the office for the night and go home.

      And as a sidenote - they also mention that they are more likely to partner up with their worst enemy, who at least shows guts and integrity, than they are with any of the fawning hangers-on who demonstrate right from the off that they don't have what it takes to lead, or succeed, off their own back.

      So who was this guru then, Marian?
      Signature


      Roger Davis

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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Roger, question...

        I take it you've purchased a lot of products in your day.

        Have you purchased any that delivered on their promise or really helped you
        get somewhere?

        The reason I am asking is because I have. In fact, one product turned my
        whole life around. Sadly, it's no longer being sold, but it was a great one.
        Pretty basic by today's standards but at the time, it was gold.

        I do feel there are good products out there. Problem is, you don't know that
        they are until you get them because you really can't tell by the sales pages.

        (another thing I hate about this business)

        Just curious as to your personal experience with IM related products.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mukul Verma
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          Roger, question...

          I take it you've purchased a lot of products in your day.

          Have you purchased any that delivered on their promise or really helped you
          get somewhere?

          The reason I am asking is because I have. In fact, one product turned my
          whole life around. Sadly, it's no longer being sold, but it was a great one.
          Pretty basic by today's standards but at the time, it was gold.

          I do feel there are good products out there. Problem is, you don't know that
          they are until you get them because you really can't tell by the sales pages.

          (another thing I hate about this business)

          Just curious as to your personal experience with IM related products.
          YES there are good products. Steve I do not think the product turned your life around. I think YOU did and it assisted you. I feel the success is up to the person.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Peters Benn
    Hey Mike,

    I think the 97% was mentioned in the video. It would be great to be able to establish decent figures for how many people do take action - if it is the quality of the products then that is something that can be worked on. If it is the nature of the market I am more confused.

    I suspect software for IM has a far better take up rate - general information products both inside and outside IM may well have poor action rates.

    Julian - I'm not sure how you think you get a JV with a big dog - but unless you have a:

    large broker fee
    a really, really amazing (read high ticket, easy to sell) product
    or a large list

    It is very unlikely to happen.
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    • Profile picture of the author Julian Lockhart
      Originally Posted by Steve Peters Benn View Post

      Julian - I'm not sure how you think you get a JV with a big dog - but unless you have a:

      large broker fee
      a really, really amazing (read high ticket, easy to sell) product
      or a large list

      It is very unlikely to happen.
      I said:
      That pokes me the wrong way.

      Just because something is a low probability doesn't mean it's not possible.

      That being said, I think your point was
      more toward the part aboutingratiating themselves wont be the thing that tips the scale in their favor.
      I don't disagree.
      but your sentiment limits what is possible.

      It's like the nerd who doesn't ask out the pretty girl because he doesn't have enough XXX.

      There are countless examples where the nerd does get the date with the girl (despite all of the people who said "forget it you don't stand a chance"). AND that not to say there are even more countless examples of failure (because there are).

      I prefer to take the point of view that anything is possible.

      Again, I don't disagree with most of what you are saying.
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  • Profile picture of the author Marian Berghes
    Ill tell you how...if you become an affiliate for one of his products and send him alot of sales and then call him and say: "hey its, xyz...you know the affiliate that send you $5000 in sales last month/launch. I think that our relationship can go beyond that point for both of us. You see, I have this product, I would really appreciate if you could take a look at it and tell me what you think"

    If he is not an asshole, he CAN'T ignore you...because you just made him a bunch of money and you essentially proved to him that you know what you are doing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Marian Berghes
    I didn't say that if you are a leader you have to suck money out of people and stuff like that.

    Just simply, a leader...but be a leader in your own way, like your example that you are trying to let people know that those products are not worth it.

    If you do that, it doesn't meant that your not or that you can not be a leader.

    Leader doesn't mean fooling people in buying stuff.
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  • Profile picture of the author studygm
    Well.. some people just do not think that selling is that important.
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Steven,

      I take it you've purchased a lot of products in your day.

      Have you purchased any that delivered on their promise or really helped you get somewhere?
      Yep.

      1. I bought one script about five years ago, that enabled me to make 3500 automated sales on ebay, build a list etc...

      I then sold it as an affiliate, which made me a tidy sum, and for the second year or so, I gave up promoting it on PPC as my sub affiliate on the second tier was outbidding me - so I made sales on autopilot for a year through him (a fellow warrior) before it became obsolete.

      2. I bought another script, with which I built over 500 websites, 300+ are still ongoing and earning money on complete autopilot and I learnt an unbelievable amount from the experience.

      Some of the earlier ebooks (I devoured every one I came across on ebay) imprinted stuff in my psyche - for example - I think it was Tom Hua? And after that, I bought many and some of the ones that stood out were by Ewen Chia, Jimmy Brown and John Delavera. Some of those were probably ghostwritten, but they were awesome in explaining online business fundamentals - EG - list building, or viral techniques for pdfs.

      I could go on.

      For every ten things I have bought, approximately one of them was much use. But that's the ratio people should expect if they try and buy knowledge. As soon as they have enough smarts to get started, I suggest they learn by 'doing' and invest their funds in business building rather than knowledge.

      I've learnt a lot more from building pages, promoting them and studying the stats than I have from all of the ebooks put together.

      And it was Robert G Allen's 'multiple streams of income' cassette tapes that actually set me onto online business, about ten years before I got my first internet connection. As soon as I got the PC online, I got the tapes out again and his 'rules' jumped back into the forefront of my mind - zero employees, automation and multiple streams.

      I don't think many of today's 'heroes' could come close to the oldies, and I doubt if many of them could set up a MySQL database, or change file permissions, or configure a wordpress install to be SEO friendly. But I could be wrong.

      I'm not a natural business person or salesman - 10 years ago I was laying bricks, and before that I was a jack of all trades. But there are many lessons that you can carry over from building walls all day - especially when you're the type of person who prefers to dig the footings, point up and sweep up the site yourself - at least, in the early days. How can you train and effectively manage the new labourer if you've never done it yourself?

      Hi Simon,

      I would say some of the most succesful people in the world question everything they do and what they see around them, blindly accepting everything is for the foolish.
      I agree. I like to use the 'stockbroker analogy' when the 'positivity police' are explaining their reasoning. It's a good analogy because it relates to business investments.

      Imagine you have a paid stockbroker who advises you about where to invest your money. Imagine that over time, they have proven themselves to be totally trustworthy and wise.

      You call them one day, explaining that you have found what appears to be a great investment, but as always, you would like to run it past them first.

      They respond with 1000 reasons why you should definitely NOT invest in the said stocks.

      Do you chastise them for showering you with negativity?

      ...........

      Same difference. A few months ago a bloke is trying to sell you a product that teaches you -

      o How to ETHICALLY get inside the minds of your prospects and control their decisions.

      o The three major "selling identities" your prospects have been subconsciously conditioned to respond to ...and how you can use them NOW.

      o The five major (and proven) "seductive selling" storylines cause people to practically throw money at you.

      And this guy turns up again, only this time he wants to 'help' you.....and he has brought his other friend, who although he hasn't been able to move forward for three years, wants to help you to move forward....and he has another friend, who specialises in helping people to 'visualise their potential'....and then you find out there are other friends involved too - the ever present launch specialist - he wants to 'help' you too...

      Sigh.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Same difference. A few months ago a bloke is trying to sell you a product that teaches you -

        o How to ETHICALLY get inside the minds of your prospects and control their decisions.

        o The three major "selling identities" your prospects have been subconsciously conditioned to respond to ...and how you can use them NOW.

        o The five major (and proven) "seductive selling" storylines cause people to practically throw money at you.

        And this guy turns up again, only this time he wants to 'help' you.....and he has brought his other friend, who although he hasn't been able to move forward for three years, wants to help you to move forward....and he has another friend, who specialises in helping people to 'visualise their potential'....and then you find out there are other friends involved too - the ever present launch specialist - he wants to 'help' you too...

        Sigh.
        Roger, you sound jaded.

        Does somebody need a hug today??? :p
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi Steven,

          Roger, you sound jaded.

          Does somebody need a hug today???
          Thanks - appreciate the sentiment and all that, but you're just not my type.

          I was born jaded...for nine months I'd had to make do living in really cramped conditions, and before you know it, this bloomin' great big oaf of a doctor whacks me on the backside, and my mum just lies there watching...
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          Roger Davis

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  • Profile picture of the author Jack Doug
    actually it is not that it is of no value, it is just that they do not have the patience to stay long enuff in IM to realise the value.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Peters Benn
    Hey Julian,

    I agree almost anything is possible but if I wanted the Big Dog JV I would be looking at a way to make it happen:

    Get the money
    Get the list
    An amazing product.

    etc.

    If you really want that JV, you need to think what you can do to make it happen? Have a plan and targets and follow through.
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  • Profile picture of the author MSGeek
    Returning to the original question of this thread, it's sort of the same as in the thread I started today on bonuses.

    You see, say, I like fried potatoes. I really do. Love them! Now imagine that I come to McDonald (ok, I don't do that anymore, but imagine I did) to buy a healthy salad and small fries, just as prize for myself for losing a few pounds, and they give me 20 large fries as a bonus. See, where I am going?

    Now, imagine that I just watched the next Tony Robbins video, got all motivated, went into the action, and stumbled upon a small blocking issue, that I know can be solved with some $27 product from on of the gurus. I buy it to continue on action, and get my 20 free large fries with it that consume my time, which I must and want to use to do MY work instead...

    You see? I love fired potatoes. They have a lot of value (especially, calorie-wise.) It's just at this moment they are not really that good for me. I'd rather keep my diet and continue working. More free stuff does not make it happen.

    So, how would you see these bonuses in that context?
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Roger,
      I agree. Not sure which one describes me best.
      None of those. You attempt to be an objective critic. By attempt, I mean that you do it as thoroughly as possible for any being with their own preferences and perspectives. (None of us are completely objective all the time.)
      When you say 'celebrity', do you mean offline ones? Because even though top level IMers are celebrities in our little bubble on the internet, I think there's an important difference in the transaction that takes place between the two types of celeb and their buyers.
      The first one was probably an especially effective hunter among Neanderthal man. He got more of the girls, so he was hated.

      BTW, the majority of the true haters are not customers of the people they attack. Some claim to be, until they're asked to prove their purchase. Others just bash blindly, with no attempt to claim they have any reason for their nastiness.

      There was a recent launch that inspired two different threads, in separate sections of the forum. One got personally nasty and was deleted. The other stayed focused on the same problems that the first thread mentioned, obviously real issues, but did not include personal attacks.

      That second thread is still available if you look.

      So much for the "If you say anything bad about them, you'll get deleted or abused" idea...


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi Paul,

        Thanks for explaining.

        The first one was probably an especially effective hunter among Neanderthal man. He got more of the girls, so he was hated.
        I swear, I know that guy, or at least one of his direct descendants

        There was a recent launch that inspired two different threads, in separate sections of the forum. One got personally nasty and was deleted. The other stayed focused on the same problems that the first thread mentioned, obviously real issues, but did not include personal attacks.

        That second thread is still available if you look.

        So much for the "If you say anything bad about them, you'll get deleted or abused" idea...
        Yep, along with 'cohorts' producing badly conceived quotes from quote websites which taken out of context appear to condemn all types of criticism as the words of fools (ref - top of post #4), the people you reference in the last sentence above, are equally lethal towards the pursuit of the truth.
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