Do your WSO customers have the right to distribute your product?

by dougp 126 replies
I need all of the seasoned warriors advice on how to handle a situation. Recently a warrior who has been here for some time actually admitted to distributing my product to her team of outsourcers. She wrote me a long pm which 95% of it made zero sense to me.

First she said that I told her to distribute my product which is a beyond blatant lie that’s not even worth a giggle. However, her other point was that some people photocopy books that they have and share it or what not.

I have problem with both cases but the part is she actually admitted to sending my product to her team of outsourcers and I tried to maintain calm and rational about the situation but by the way she is writing she doesn’t believe that she did anything wrong.

I don’t care if it’s her team or freelancers or her favorite team of gurus that she sent my product too, if something is copyrighted and state explicitly in the terms that it’s for “personal use” only, then you can’t legally distribute it!

So please, the seasoned warriors, what is your take on this and how would you handle this situation? Her rational was that I didn’t lose any money. Hmm, if that’s the case, it’s like someone pirating a movie or music online and saying that “they didn’t lose money.” Online piracy is estimated to cost what just millions of lost sales annually? Anyway, discuss.
#main internet marketing discussion forum #customers #distribute #product #wso #wso piracy
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  • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
    They do not have the right to distribute the WSO unless the WSO was sold with rights attached to it.

    TomG.

    Originally Posted by dougp View Post

    I need all of the seasoned warriors advice on how to handle a situation. Recently a warrior who has been here for some time actually admitted to distributing my product to her team of outsourcers. She wrote me a long pm which 95% of it made zero sense to me.

    First she said that I told her to distribute my product which is a beyond blatant lie that’s not even worth a giggle. However, her other point was that some people photocopy books that they have and share it or what not.

    I have problem with both cases but the part is she actually admitted to sending my product to her team of outsourcers and I tried to maintain calm and rational about the situation but by the way she is writing she doesn’t believe that she did anything wrong.

    I don’t care if it’s her team or freelancers or her favorite team of gurus that she sent my product too, if something is copyrighted and state explicitly in the terms that it’s for “personal use” only, then you can’t legally distribute it!

    So please, the seasoned warriors, what is your take on this and how would you handle this situation? Her rational was that I didn’t lose any money. Hmm, if that’s the case, it’s like someone pirating a movie or music online and saying that “they didn’t lose money.” Online piracy is estimated to cost what just millions of lost sales annually? Anyway, discuss.
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    • Profile picture of the author espacecadet
      Banned
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      • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
        What she is doing is not just wrong, it's illegal. I would first get her to tell you how many copies of your product she has handed out. Then I would consult a lawyer and have them write up a letter to her explaining how much she can be charged, per copy, for distributing your product without the right to do so.

        Once she sees how deep the hole she is in actually goes she might just start changing her tune. It may make no difference but there is a good chance it will.

        Also, since she has no right to give out your product then it becomes stolen goods. Every person she gives it to becomes guilty of recieving stolen goods. Let her know that you wont just go after her, but you will include every person she has given the product to.

        Let her know that if needed you will supoena (sp?) her records and find out who her "team" is.

        Let her know you are prepared to come at her with both barrels blazing. A lot of times when you show intent to bring legal force to bear it can have an effect and get people to stop. Not always but it does work if done properly.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Hi dougp,

        At the very least, contact Allen.

        And as far as some people photocopying a book, you are making an unauthorized copy.

        I for one would like to know who it is, but you can't mention her name here. That goes against rule #1, however, there is no rule against sending someone a PM if they want to know who it is.

        ~Michael
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        If I had an employee working on MY business and wanted them to use methods in an ebook I purchased - I would think nothing about showing the ebook to that person. In my mind, it would still be "personal use" as the info would be used only for MY business. It would not occur to me that I should buy a second copy just to show my employee what I want her to do...

        However, sending it to outsourcers (are they also marketers?) doesn't sound right to me. If I outsourced work and wanted the work done by a certain method, I might send instructions from the ebook with my order.

        If your book was distributed as a bonus to give the outsourcers a freebie - that's definitely wrong.

        Question: How did you learn about this?

        kay
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    • Originally Posted by tommygadget View Post

      They do not have the right to distribute the WSO unless the WSO was sold with rights attached to it.

      TomG.
      Exactly. Who are these "outsourcers", anyway? I'd be upset by this as well.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
    No... unless you gave those rights, she should buy a copy for each person that wants or needs it.

    If I work for IBM and buy your WSO, that doesn't mean I can send it to all 386,558 employees.

    If she wanted a bulk discount she should have talked to you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rachel Goodchild
    That doesn't sound too good.
    Perhaps go back and give her a multi use discount deal for all the ones she sent out?
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    • Profile picture of the author KimW
      Originally Posted by Rachel Goodchild View Post

      That doesn't sound too good.
      Perhaps go back and give her a multi use discount deal for all the ones she sent out?
      Rachel, I think such an action would just cement in her mind that she can do this kind of behavior without any negative repercussions.
      Just my opinion.
      Kim
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  • Profile picture of the author Ralf Skirr
    You're are absolutely right that someone does not have the right to distribute copies of your stuff to other people, no matter whether they are freelancers, friends or whatever.

    The problem is that you hardly have a chance to stop people from doing it.

    One person who was stupid enought to tell you about it doesn't play any role in the big scheme of things. Like it or not - if you're selling digital products you'll have lots of people copying your stuff.

    Better get used to it, or you'll be miserable all the time.

    Is there a positive side of things? Clearly yes! Your stuff gets distributed and that gets your name around. I'm not kidding. Since it happens anyway start making the best of it by adding reputation building content and lots of links to your products and affiliate products.

    Regarding the specific person you are talking about: I would not continue the discussion with her. You can't make her take back the stuff she distributed. You can't make her any wiser than she is (not). If your sales system allows to do this maybe blacklist her so that she can't easily buy again from you. Not that it matters, but it feels good. :-)

    Ralf
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Kay, I have to agree with you. I print most ebooks that I buy. I even have a small binding machine that I got at my local OfficeMax. People might come over and see my books and want to look thru them. That's fine.
    But I would never let them walk out of my house with them. That's personal use.
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    • Profile picture of the author Allen Graves
      Short and sweet,

      I'd be pissed - and those of you who know me will agree that I would be all over her like white on rice.

      I'm not sure what exactly I would do or say, but even pleading ignorance would not matter much to me at this point.

      Some people's children!

      Peace,
      AL
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Last year, my family went on a cruise to Hawaii to celebrate my folks' 50th anniversary. If you've ever been on a cruise, you know that ship's photographer is everywhere.

        My mother wanted to purchase some of the photos, but she didn't want to pay for three identical sets. She thought she could buy one set, and get a local shop to make copies.

        The local shops refused, as the photos were under copyright.

        On an earlier trip, one of their friends tried to get clever and take pictures of the pictures in the display rack. As Allen said earlier, the photographer was on him like white on rice. He got off lucky - they just watched while he deleted those photos from his camera.

        Try sending her a clipping of one of those stories about teenagers being sued for millions in file-sharing violations...
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  • Profile picture of the author rmholla
    Very few people photocopy a whole book, they may copy a few pages but a whole book? Heck at the price of most books on Amazon it would be more cost effective to buy multiple copies rather than stand at a copy machine for an hour. sheesh. But I guess if that is her logic then you need to be firm and demand she pay for those copies. I doubt she will though. I would block her from purchasing any future WSOs you may run.

    Rhonda
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  • Profile picture of the author DougBarger
    Hey Doug,

    I got an email from my brother a few days ago which contained some language that may be useful in this situation.

    Apparenty he had people adding his email address to lists or something
    (not me lol)

    and so he put the following disclaimer in the bottom of the message
    just before the closing,

    "Please do not send,sell, share or add this email or contact info to any person or list without my unique written consent.

    That was the first time I had heard that particular phrase and it pretty much makes sure there is no way anyone can weasel out or escape that clause.

    I don't know if I read your particular offer you are referring to or not,
    (last one I read looked pretty good!)

    but yeah, I know sometimes people who do those kind of things try

    to wear me (and everyone) down and make us feel guilty for standing our ground.

    I support your decision to enforce the original terms of purchase 110%.

    In business there's a time to be flexible, but when someone else tries to tell you what the terms are going to be for your offer,

    there really must be a line drawn.


    I've had a couple try to pull that stuff with me in the not so distant past
    and I'm glad I was able to maintain my composure.

    So no one has any rights to your property except for the written and express rights you allow them to have.

    Although I know how you feel, I can't say I'm much surprised.

    Hope you get this resolved and end that attitude that others are talking about as if they can just do whatever they want with your terms with no consequence.

    It's got to stop somewhere and if not now and with you then when and where.

    Had to pick a Doug.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
      Strewth, looks like time to don my horns & stoke the fire...

      Devil's advocate reaction. No more, no less.

      I bought a paperback book a few weeks ago. It was fantastic.

      I told a friend about it, he was suitably curious, so I lent it to him

      He loved it too, and bought the author's entire back catalogue.

      I committed a 'crime', technically. At a stretch.

      The author got several new sales.

      Call me all the names under the sun, but jeez, what's the biggie?

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
        Originally Posted by Steven Fullman View Post

        Strewth, looks like time to don my horns & stoke the fire...

        Devil's advocate reaction. No more, no less.
        I bought a paperback book a few weeks ago. It was fantastic.
        I told a friend about it, he was suitably curious, so I lent it to him
        He loved it too, and bought the author's entire back catalogue.
        I committed a 'crime', technically. At a stretch.
        The author got several new sales.
        Call me all the names under the sun, but jeez, what's the biggie?

        Steve
        You're gonna burn.... lol.

        I believe that with physical products such as books, that you might be ok because you didn't make a copy - providing there is nothing in the copyright notice in the book stating "no lending, hiring etc." (as you would find with DVDs.

        The difference is, there is no copy made... that's why you can sell books secondhand.

        Kindest regards,
        Karl.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
          Originally Posted by KarlWarren View Post

          You're gonna burn.... lol.

          I believe that with physical products such as books, that you might be ok because you didn't make a copy - providing there is nothing in the copyright notice in the book stating "no lending, hiring etc." (as you would find with DVDs.

          The difference is, there is no copy made... that's why you can sell books secondhand.

          Kindest regards,
          Karl.
          Karl, granted...and I'm TOTALLY against the wholesale destruction of someone's hard earned business through illegal distribution.

          Not the point I was trying to make.

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
            Originally Posted by Steven Fullman View Post

            Karl, granted...and I'm TOTALLY against the wholesale destruction of someone's hard earned business through illegal distribution.

            Not the point I was trying to make.

            Steve
            lol, I know
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
          Originally Posted by KarlWarren View Post

          You're gonna burn.... lol.

          I believe that with physical products such as books, that you might be ok because you didn't make a copy...

          The difference is, there is no copy made... that's why you can sell books secondhand.
          Karl,

          When you think about it...isn't this twisted logic?

          The same info is in 2 people's brains.

          Only one person paid for the book.

          What difference does it make that only one has a bunch of ex-tree to show for it???

          Steve
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        • Libraries can loan physical books to huge groups of people, too...but ebooks are not in the same classification.

          Originally Posted by KarlWarren View Post

          You're gonna burn.... lol.

          I believe that with physical products such as books, that you might be ok because you didn't make a copy - providing there is nothing in the copyright notice in the book stating "no lending, hiring etc." (as you would find with DVDs.

          The difference is, there is no copy made... that's why you can sell books secondhand.

          Kindest regards,
          Karl.
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          • Profile picture of the author Allen Graves
            Where in the world did physical books come into play?

            We're talking about eBooks and internet marketing here. Making money on the internet. Not libraries and brick/mortar.

            Isn't giving away other people's products couterintuative in our realm?

            I'm in a bad mood. 12 - 1 Red SuX

            AL
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            • Profile picture of the author thatgirlJ
              Originally Posted by Allen Graves View Post


              I'm in a bad mood. 12 - 1 Red SuX

              AL
              Cheer up

              @ Steven, yep I am

              Okay, I'm leaving for real this time...lots of typing for a client who did not send me anyone else's manual :p
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
              Originally Posted by Allen Graves View Post

              Where in the world did physical books come into play?

              We're talking about eBooks and internet marketing here. Making money on the internet. Not libraries and brick/mortar.

              Isn't giving away other people's products couterintuative in our realm?

              I'm in a bad mood. 12 - 1 Red SuX

              AL
              Me too, Al...

              Spurs 1-2 Aston Villa

              I'm pretty pee'd off. A home defeat...

              Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
              I have had in my rights NO to giveaway, what about the word NO don't people understand? I don't care if it is to help their business or not. If they want to break the rights, then contact me, and I might say yes to it.

              People are here to run a business and make a profit, but it seems that the thinking is that it is OK to let people give away my books (use me as an example) and cut my profits, so they can make more money on their business. Sorry the logic doesn't work.

              Physical books are only 1 copy, with ebooks you are making multiply copies of the same book and giving them away.

              What happens when the person you outsource to thinks this is OK to do, because they follow your example, and give it to all their list.

              It makes a mockery of ebooks, and the rights given with them.

              If a person has to give away an ebook to their outsourcers, then it is a business expense, buy the book, or are people so tight fisted, that they are only thinking of themselves. I want to outsource, but I too mean to buy the person a copy, and it's only 2 people so I will give them a copy.

              Yes it might be 2 people for you, but what about the thousands of people who are also going to outsource, and then use your example as their guidelines. Those 2 people can become thousands of people, which are thousands of lost income for the person selling a book.

              A newbie gives rights where they don't allow the book to be given away. But, the marketer has a blind spot here, and they want to make sure their bottom line is high. So copy after copy is given away. Say it is 10 people who outsource, and they give away 3 copies to the people that work for them. That is 30 copies, and the newbie thinks their book has bombed because that is 30 less sales for them.

              People who give copies away, are only thinking of themselves, and have no understanding of business.

              Rights are there for a purpose, and pretending that outsourcing is a good way around the rights is totally false.
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              • Profile picture of the author thatgirlJ
                Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post




                Yes it might be 2 people for you, but what about the thousands of people who are also going to outsource, and then use your example as their guidelines. Those 2 people can become thousands of people, which are thousands of lost income for the person selling a book.

                .
                I understand what you're saying, but my point came from being a product owner who wouldn't mind if someone did that to MY product...It's not something I would spend time fighting.

                No, I wouldn't do it with someone else's product just because I am an intense rule-follower. I would type out my own notes for them to follow. I just wanted to clarify that since you seemed to have it backward from what I said.
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          • Profile picture of the author limoge
            Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards View Post

            Libraries can loan physical books to huge groups of people, too...but ebooks are not in the same classification.
            I've used two library system so far that allowed the borrowing of ebooks. BUT more than one person cannot have that ebook checked out. They treat it just like having one physical copy of the book.

            To me this is evidence on the side of not freely distributing ebooks to multiple people.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by Steven Fullman View Post

        Strewth, looks like time to don my horns & stoke the fire...

        Devil's advocate reaction. No more, no less.

        I bought a paperback book a few weeks ago. It was fantastic.

        I told a friend about it, he was suitably curious, so I lent it to him

        He loved it too, and bought the author's entire back catalogue.

        I committed a 'crime', technically. At a stretch.

        The author got several new sales.

        Call me all the names under the sun, but jeez, what's the biggie?

        Steve
        Hi Steve,

        Resoponding only to the devil's advocate, not you personally.

        I may be missing the point too, but two things come to mind.

        1. You can only compare the two IF she deleted her files of Doug's work from HER computer while she was 'lending a copy'. In other words, with a book, only one person can hold and read it at the same time. So, to make the comparison fair, the file could only be of use to one person at a time (on one computer at a time).

        2. Two wrongs don't make a right. Justifying unethical/illegal/bad behavior by pointing other borderline-acceptable uses doesn't justify either one.

        ~Michael
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        • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
          Aha, I knew I'd read the term before:

          First Sale Doctrine... that's the law that applies to this. I didn't know specifically if it allowed for lending the book - but apparently it does:

          This is interesting reading: Corporate Counsel Center - Legal Commentary
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
          Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

          Hi Steve,

          Resoponding only to the devil's advocate, not you personally.

          I may be missing the point too, but two things come to mind.

          1. You can only compare the two IF she deleted her files of Doug's work from HER computer while she was 'lending a copy'. In other words, with a book, only one person can hold and read it at the same time. So, to make the comparison fair, the file could only be of use to one person at a time (on one computer at a time).

          2. Two wrongs don't make a right. Justifying unethical/illegal/bad behavior by pointing other borderline-acceptable uses doesn't justify either one.

          ~Michael
          Mike,

          I agree, with a caveat...it aint gonna change...No matter how much we argue.

          So, how's best to deal with these things?

          1. The worth of a printed book comes almost entirely from the words...the ink, not the pulp, and once that's 'shared', who cares how many copies of the original were bought?

          2. Absolutely. Two wrongs invariably make a bigger wrong. But perhaps there's a case for rethinking what constitutes 'a wrong' ...in this age. The smart thinkers will spot a 'right'...

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
            I disagree a little bit....

            What if i bought a guide on link building and wanted to outsource the effort?

            When I hire a few people to outsource the work to using the reports information, it seems like it would be OK to share the method with them so that it is done correctly.

            Half of the product have outsourcing written directly into the sales copy. I don't see why I would need to purchase multiple copies of a product to provide direction for someone that is "working for me".

            After all, half of these purchases are made by a company whether it is a single person or not for the benefit of our business.
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            • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
              I did some work for a warrior who wanted me to look at a wso that he thought might be useful to read. He bought 2 copies of it, one for himself, and one for me.

              Some of the gurus who outsource buy a copy for the person who is doing the work for them.
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
              Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

              I disagree a little bit....

              What if i bought a guide on link building and wanted to outsource the effort?

              When I hire a few people to outsource the work to using the reports information, it seems like it would be OK to share the method with them so that it is done correctly.

              Half of the product have outsourcing written directly into the sales copy. I don't see why I would need to purchase multiple copies of a product to provide direction for someone that is "working for me".

              After all, half of these purchases are made by a company whether it is a single person or not for the benefit of our business.
              Totally agree, Jeremy.

              This is where IP Law gets a bit stinky...

              IMHO

              The author wants to educate.

              The publisher wants more sales.

              When the author IS the publisher, as in these enlightened times, shinola hits the fan.

              Is it more important to get your message across, or make the sale?

              That's the dilemma of some publishers right now...

              Steve
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              • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                In certain aspects of my business, I have a "team" of people that work for me to do certain things. I don't think I should have to buy a complete new copy of "instructions" for people that are never going to use it for their own benefit...or maybe I'm wrong in thinking that way?

                When a company goes out and buys new credit card machines, they don't have to purchase a separate user manual for each employee do they? I don't see where the same logic would not apply here.

                I'm not saying that someone should be able to buy my product or anyone elses and distribute copies to their friends, family, or people of their choosing, but if they have employees for their business they should be able to share the information.
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                • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
                  Where's Deena Burgess when you need her?

                  I think a lot of what's being discussed comes under fair use...
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                  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
                    If it was OK to pass products onto your employees then why do companies sell single and multiple licences. You have to say how many employees will be using it and pay for each licence, getting a discount for the more you buy.

                    People who think it is fine to pass on documents to their employees or team are totally missing the point. It is an expense you should pay as part of your business.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                      Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

                      If it was OK to pass products onto your employees then why do companies sell single and multiple licences. You have to say how many employees will be using it and pay for each licence, getting a discount for the more you buy.

                      People who think it is fine to pass on documents to their employees or team are totally missing the point. It is an expense you should pay as part of your business.
                      Bev,

                      I think that what you are saying would be true for an actual product. However, with most of the ebooks that we buy we are sold on an idea with the book being an instruction manual.

                      If this were a piece of software that he was talking about, my thinking would be completely different.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
                      Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

                      If it was OK to pass products onto your employees then why do companies sell single and multiple licences. You have to say how many employees will be using it and pay for each licence, getting a discount for the more you buy.

                      People who think it is fine to pass on documents to their employees or team are totally missing the point. It is an expense you should pay as part of your business.
                      Undoubtedly, an 'enterprise license' is needed in these cases, but how many product owners offer them?

                      Steve

                      P.S When's the next one due, Bev?
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                  • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
                    Originally Posted by KarlWarren View Post

                    I think a lot of what's being discussed comes under fair use...
                    Hurrah! The voice of reason FINALLY strikes!



                    Steve
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  share the method
                  That is the point I was making. You can share the "method" without giving away the book. You can make a list of how you want something done and send that to your outsourcers.

                  As for printed (bookstore) books - once you buy them you can do what you want. Though usually higher in price, ebooks don't often allow that type of "ownership".

                  I give my print books to friends, donate them to charities, have exchanged them at used book stores for other used books, etc. After all, there's only one copy of the printed book (that I own, that is). Only one person can "own" it at a time.

                  Sending ebook downloads - you end up with multiple people owning ONE purchase at the same time. That's the problem.

                  kay
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                  • Profile picture of the author thatgirlJ
                    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                    That is the point I was making. You can share the "method" without giving away the book. You can make a list of how you want something done and send that to your outsourcers.

                    As for printed (bookstore) books - once you buy them you can do what you want. Though usually higher in price, ebooks don't often allow that type of "ownership".

                    I give my print books to friends, donate them to charities, have exchanged them at used book stores for other used books, etc. After all, there's only one copy of the printed book (that I own, that is). Only one person can "own" it at a time.

                    Sending ebook downloads - you end up with multiple people owning ONE purchase at the same time. That's the problem.

                    kay
                    Perfect points Kay
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                • Profile picture of the author thatgirlJ
                  Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                  In certain aspects of my business, I have a "team" of people that work for me to do certain things. I don't think I should have to buy a complete new copy of "instructions" for people that are never going to use it for their own benefit...or maybe I'm wrong in thinking that way?

                  When a company goes out and buys new credit card machines, they don't have to purchase a separate user manual for each employee do they? I don't see where the same logic would not apply here.

                  I'm not saying that someone should be able to buy my product or anyone elses and distribute copies to their friends, family, or people of their choosing, but if they have employees for their business they should be able to share the information.
                  I agree with Jeremy. I'm a product owner and have no problems with this.

                  And, as a caveat, when did sharing a copy of a book with a friend (hard copy) become illegal? That's just standard...you like a book and pass it on, or even resell it.

                  I agree it's different w/ digital b/c of points Karl made, but when you need to give outsourcers directions I think it falls under personal use. I haven't done it, however, and would likely type my own directions...but I wouldn't mind if someone did it with my products.

                  Enter flames :p
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                  • Profile picture of the author John Rowe
                    Originally Posted by Jenn Dize View Post

                    I agree with Jeremy. I'm a product owner and have no problems with this.

                    And, as a caveat, when did sharing a copy of a book with a friend (hard copy) become illegal? That's just standard...you like a book and pass it on, or even resell it.

                    I agree it's different w/ digital b/c of points Karl made, but when you need to give outsourcers directions I think it falls under personal use. I haven't done it, however, and would likely type my own directions...but I wouldn't mind if someone did it with my products.

                    Enter flames :p
                    I agree with what Jenn said, but didn't have the balls to say so first.
                    Now I'll stand here behind this strong and beautiful woman so she can protect me further.

                    .
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                  • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
                    Originally Posted by Jenn Dize View Post

                    And, as a caveat, when did sharing a copy of a book with a friend (hard copy) become illegal? That's just standard...you like a book and pass it on, or even resell it.


                    Enter flames :p
                    Jenn...it may or may not ever have been illegal...but that's a dichotomy as far as I see it! It's 'OK' to give away a physical book, but not a digital one.

                    ...even if the information inside is the same?

                    Help!

                    Steve
                    Signature

                    Not promoting right now

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                    • Profile picture of the author thatgirlJ
                      Originally Posted by Steven Fullman View Post

                      Jenn...it may or may not ever have been illegal...but that's a dichotomy as far as I see it! It's 'OK' to give away a physical book, but not a digital one.

                      ...even if the information inside is the same?

                      Help!

                      Steve
                      I agree...but I think it's because you're technically making copies and retaining one. With a physical book you're not.


                      LOL@ John
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                      • Profile picture of the author Allen Graves
                        LP's?

                        OMG we're old!

                        AL
                        Signature
                        Every day I check the obituaries. If I don't see my name there, then I know it's going to be a good day!
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                        • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
                          Originally Posted by Allen Graves View Post

                          LP's?

                          OMG we're old!

                          AL
                          They belonged to my Grandad...that's what he called them...



                          Steve
                          Signature

                          Not promoting right now

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                        • Profile picture of the author ShayB
                          Originally Posted by Allen Graves View Post

                          LP's?

                          OMG we're old!

                          AL
                          Old? Hehehehehehehe....Let me go dig up my 8 tracks.....
                          Signature
                          "Fate protects fools, little children, and ships called Enterprise." ~Commander Riker
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                          • Profile picture of the author ShayB
                            If you are purchasing a physical book, you pay for that physical copy - you can read it and then have it sit on your shelf, give it away, etc. But you cannot make photocopies of it - if you want to pass it along, you have to pass along the copy you paid for.

                            I would think an ebook would be the same way....you have a copy you paid for - to "create" a new copy by passing on to someone else would not be cool....

                            JMHO
                            Signature
                            "Fate protects fools, little children, and ships called Enterprise." ~Commander Riker
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          • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
            To answer your other question Steve...

            I agree with you, it is twisted logic... and where does it stop...?

            If I read a book I could tell someone the plot without the book changing hands.

            Kindest regards,
            Karl.
            Signature
            eCoverNinja - Sales Page Graphics & Layout Specialist
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  • Profile picture of the author DougBarger
    Just hearing the word "outsourcers" in association with distributing my protected intellectual property makes me think she has them on assignment replicating and mass producing it in bulk wholesale in order to make a few cents off each copy and drive its value to nil.

    Of course, that wouldn't be the case, but of all people to give it to...

    "my outsourcers" would have to be the worst.

    Er, uh, I mean, Look for the bright side, more exposure. Where's that roll the eyes emoticon.
    Lol, didn't see your post when I wrote that Steven.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dave Cornish
    It's very unfortunate to see something like this going on, but there is not much you can do except start making products with your affiliate links embedded.

    Illegal file and document distribution is about as common on the net as something like google.

    If she has half a brain she likely would not back down because you threatened her with legal action. The legal fees of taking her to court would far outweigh your losses thus far, so it wouldn't even make sense for you to actually do that.
    Signature
    --
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  • Profile picture of the author Shannon Tani
    What if I purchased an ebook because I was interested in promoting it and wanted someone else to write a review of it? Should I pay for two copies?

    I was actually thinking about this recently and wondered what others thought.

    Love,
    Shannon
    Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author Allen Graves
    Come on guys! (and gals)

    She should have read the book herself and simply told her people what she wanted.

    Now there are how many copies circulating out there? How many of those outsourcers gave it to THEIR people, or sent it to their lists, or put it in their membership websites?

    I like a certain music CD. Is it OK for you to send me a copy of the CD or, by law, do I have to buy it for myself?

    To me there's no difference between writing music and writing a book.

    The author is losing money, if you ask me.

    AL
    Signature
    Every day I check the obituaries. If I don't see my name there, then I know it's going to be a good day!
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
      Originally Posted by Allen Graves View Post

      Come on guys! (and gals)

      She should have read the book herself and simply told her people what she wanted.

      Now there are how many copies circulating out there? How many of those outsourcers gave it to THEIR people, or sent it to their lists, or put it in their membership websites?

      I like RUSH. Is it OK for you to send me a copy of the CD or, by law, do I have to buy it for myself?

      The author is losing money, if you ask me.

      AL
      Al,

      Please...I'll GLADLY send you my old RUSH LP's...You'll be doing me a favour.



      Steve
      Signature

      Not promoting right now

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    • Profile picture of the author thatgirlJ
      Originally Posted by Allen Graves View Post

      Come on guys! (and gals)

      She should have read the book herself and simply told her people what she wanted.

      AL
      I agree to an extent...but in the end the same info is being passed on. It's not something I would fight if I knew it was going to outsourcers though.

      IMO you're not losing money because the chances that those outsourcers would buy the book are small, and they would have followed the exact process already anyway (because of explicit directions from the person who outsourced) so would be even less inclined to read the book.

      If people are going to do it anyway I like to look on the rosy side and think..."hey, if they see the value in this product of mine perhaps they will buy mine in the future" whereas before they might not have heard of me.

      As for it being passed along...I think that should be an agreement. I am a ghostwriter and often sign NDA's about processes and information so clearly the outsourcer shouldn't pass it along. It is for personal use for the business owner only.

      As I said, I wouldn't do it with someone else's product but I wouldn't blink if I found out someone did it with mine.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
    Jenn,

    Thanks!

    You're a star.
    Steve
    Signature

    Not promoting right now

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    • Profile picture of the author thatgirlJ
      Originally Posted by Steven Fullman View Post

      Jenn,

      Thanks!

      I now understand the difference between publishing and marketing.

      You're a star, Jenn!
      Steve
      I don't get it but I think you're making fun of me somehow :p
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Let's not get caught up in what WE THINK should be acceptable. People have been passing physical books around to friends for many, many years and no author has ever had a problem with that.

        that is simply because there is only ONE copy - so only ONE person can read the book or possess it at one time

        not true of ebooks - and they are not the same as it is possible for you to purchase one ebook - give it away - yet still possess that ebook...

        Jenn - I think just some contrarian thinking here

        kay
        Signature

        Saving one dog may not change the world - but forever changes the world of one dog.

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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
        Originally Posted by Jenn Dize View Post

        I don't get it but I think you're making fun of me somehow :p
        Not at all. Honestly.

        As a writer, you are perfectly positioned to get emotional about:

        1, Getting your stuff read
        2. Getting your stuff bought

        THAT's where I'm coming from.

        Steve
        Signature

        Not promoting right now

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      • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
        Report her to admin asap... there is a ring of thieves that prey upon the WSO forum and she needs to be eliminated from this forum along with everyone else like her who thinks it is ok to steal.

        I am sure that Allen would like to know who it is that is pirating WSO offers.
        Signature
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        • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
          Originally Posted by Josh Anderson View Post

          Report her to admin asap... there is a ring of thieves that prey upon the WSO forum and she needs to be eliminated from this forum along with everyone else like her who thinks it is ok to steal.

          I am sure that Allen would like to know who it is that is pirating WSO offers.
          Josh,

          In this case, the offending warrior thought that they were handing out something that would assist the outsourcers to do their work to specifications. If I were doing this assignment and needed outside help, I would take the lessons learned from the WSO and create my own guidelines. Now I think this person should be notified that distribution of the WSO violates the owner's copyright and suggest that they create their own. Anything more at this point simply creates more ill will which will probably hurt the OP more than anyone else.

          TomG.
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        • Profile picture of the author John Rowe
          Originally Posted by Josh Anderson View Post

          ...she needs to be eliminated from this forum along with everyone else like her who thinks it is ok to steal. I am sure that Allen would like to know who it is that is pirating WSO offers.
          Josh, this thread is not about pirating, it’s about providing paid digital material to your employees or outsource staff.

          A few people have asked, where do you draw the line? Well, is there a single line, or might each case come with its own line?

          For example...

          You buy a Jay Abraham written course for $497 and you want it turned into audio by the person who does your voiceover work so you can listen to it at the gym and in your car. Do you buy a second course for your voiceover artist?

          You buy a high-end Anthony Robbins audio course for $1497 and want your transcriptionist to turn it into text so you can print it out and make notes. Do you pay an additional $1497 to send your transcriptionist a copy?

          You send your $47 ebook on ‘eBay Selling’ to Kinkos via e-mail so they can print it out for your later pickup. Do you drop an extra $47 for this?

          Maybe. But, not me. Each case comes with its own line.
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          • Profile picture of the author matthewd
            Originally Posted by John Rowe View Post

            Josh, this thread is not about pirating, it’s about providing paid digital material to your employees or outsource staff.

            A few people have asked, where do you draw the line? Well, can there only be a single line, or might each case come with its own line?

            For example...

            You buy a Jay Abraham written course for $497 and you want it turned into audio by the person who does your voiceover work so you can listen to it at the gym and in your car. Do you buy a second course for your voiceover artist?

            You buy a high-end Anthony Robbins audio course for $1497 and want your transcriptionist to turn it into text so you can print it out and make notes. Do you pay an additional $1497 to send your transcriptionist a copy?

            You send your $47 ebook on ‘eBay Selling’ to Kinkos via e-mail so they can print it out for your later pickup. Do you drop and extra $47 for this?

            Maybe. But, not me. Each case comes with its own line.
            Exactly what I was feeling but could not think of such good examples.
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            • Profile picture of the author Michael Chris
              dougp,

              Curious...

              Can you provide us a link to the WSO?

              Could you post the license terms here?

              If she had PMed you ahead of time explaining what she wanted to do for the purposes of implementing your method, would you have given her permission?

              Thanks,
              Michael
              Signature
              Internet Business Is Like An Onion... It Has Many Layers... And Sometimes It Stinks.
              Cook it for awhile in some nice butter or olive oil and you might be onto something!

              Money is Attracted to Movement (aka Action)
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              • Profile picture of the author dougp
                Originally Posted by Michael Chris View Post

                dougp,

                Curious...

                Can you provide us a link to the WSO?

                Could you post the license terms here?

                If she had PMed you ahead of time explaining what she wanted to do for the purposes of implementing your method, would you have given her permission?

                Thanks,
                Michael

                Hey Michael, here is the license text that was in the zip file of the product as a text file. I included one so hopefully something like this wouldn’t happen and so that there would be zero confusion.

                This is copyrighted and comes with ZERO (0) NO rights and is for personal use only. Thanks for your cooperation :-).
                To be honest, I would not have allowed here to send it to her freelancers as I know this may open up a can in worms down the road. However, I do consider myself reasonable and, I would have given her a discount for getting it for her freelancers and would have personally helped her freelancers get started.


                Doug
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                • Profile picture of the author Michael Chris
                  Okay, so the rights were pretty clear.

                  What if it was in house employees? (With and without PMing.)

                  What if it was a business partner working out of the same location? (With and without PMing.)

                  What if she had just typed the important bits in her own words and forwarded it to the freelancers?

                  Again, just curious.

                  -Michael
                  Signature
                  Internet Business Is Like An Onion... It Has Many Layers... And Sometimes It Stinks.
                  Cook it for awhile in some nice butter or olive oil and you might be onto something!

                  Money is Attracted to Movement (aka Action)
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          • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
            Originally Posted by John Rowe View Post

            Josh, this thread is not about pirating, it’s about providing paid digital material to your employees or outsource staff.

            A few people have asked, where do you draw the line? Well, is there a single line, or might each case come with its own line?

            For example...

            You buy a Jay Abraham written course for $497 and you want it turned into audio by the person who does your voiceover work so you can listen to it at the gym and in your car. Do you buy a second course for your voiceover artist?

            You buy a high-end Anthony Robbins audio course for $1497 and want your transcriptionist to turn it into text so you can print it out and make notes. Do you pay an additional $1497 to send your transcriptionist a copy?

            You send your $47 ebook on ‘eBay Selling’ to Kinkos via e-mail so they can print it out for your later pickup. Do you drop an extra $47 for this?

            Maybe. But, not me. Each case comes with its own line.
            John in answer to your question, my answer would be YES, buy a copy for the person.

            I have bought many of Big Mike's products, and I have always asked him if I can use them on both my computer and my husband's computer.

            I also think people are missing a huge point here, outsourcers are not employees.

            I could be asked to write for someone today, and they send me an ebook they bought for $7, $27, $47 or even $1,400 I use it to write the one thing they want, what is to stop me then writing a huge amount using it and charging for it.

            An outsourcer is just that paid to do a certain amount of work only. Outsources are not employee, and if you want to give them a copy then stop being a skinflint and buy them their own copy.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
              No! It is definitely not OK unless they bought the rights. People who prey on the WSO forum and distribute products from there are contemptible. I have a squad trained to deal with them, and they are ruthless.



              These guys take no excuses and no prisoners.
              Signature
              Kevin Riley, Kevin Riley Publishing, Osaka, Japan


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              • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                Kevin -

                I think that's hamster abuse...
                Signature

                Saving one dog may not change the world - but forever changes the world of one dog.

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              • Profile picture of the author Michael Chris
                Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

                No! It is definitely not OK unless they bought the rights. People who prey on the WSO forum and distribute products from there are contemptible. I have a squad trained to deal with them, and they are ruthless.



                These guys take no excuses and no prisoners.
                Dude, trim those nails! Well, at least they seem to look clean.

                -Michael
                Signature
                Internet Business Is Like An Onion... It Has Many Layers... And Sometimes It Stinks.
                Cook it for awhile in some nice butter or olive oil and you might be onto something!

                Money is Attracted to Movement (aka Action)
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      • Profile picture of the author EdwardMoore
        Hello Doug,

        Yes, what she did is WRONG!!! Anyone, who passes alone any of our content, ebooks, reports or whatever without having that right, is in the WRONG!!!

        The way I see it, she should have done one of two things if she wanted/needed to pass alone your information.

        1. She should have contacted you and told you how many of her people she wanted to share it with and ask for a bulk rate. In this case I would think any of us would give a way low figure, because at least the person asked. So, instead of having 10 people see our product for the price of one, even getting the price of 2 or 3 for that 10 is way better than just getting the price of one.

        2. If she didn't want/need to share the entire product, then she could have simply picked out the key elements she wanted/needed to share with her people and wrote her own report to them. This would not be a violation of your rights and should be completely acceptable (as long as she didn't quote the entire product, of course).


        Anyway, it is not cool to do what she did and she should offer you some sorta restitution for her action.

        To your health,
        Edward Moore
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        • Profile picture of the author dougp
          Okay, so the rights were pretty clear.

          What if it was in house employees? (With and without PMing.)

          What if it was a business partner working out of the same location? (With and without PMing.)

          What if she had just typed the important bits in her own words and forwarded it to the freelancers?

          Again, just curious.

          -Michael
          Michael, let me define an answer for you for all possible situations, it’s No my friend. That’s why I explicitly included a rights text in there, to make things clear. Ok, now your turn. Would you distribute someone else product to your freelancer even if the product owner explicitly listed in his or her terms for you not too? Yes or no?
          If it was my product i wouldnt mind people sending a copy to their outsourcers or staff to work from
          That’s interesting to hear. If that’s the case and you are or ever get in the b2b market, then you will lose a whole lot of money with people distributing your products to their “partners” “freelancers” etc. before you know it, they will be distributing it to their list. Maybe it’s just me, but I would feel wrong distributing any product purchase to my freelancers and I have a lot of them.
          This has come up quite a lot over the last couple years in two of my memberships. Two members meet at the membership, decide to partner up and one of them cancels to share the other person's membership.

          My policy? Absolutely not. The membership is for use by one person - the person who joined. Period. We track login IP's and other things because the problem is more common than you might realize, even with non-ebook products.

          It's even gone so far as someone who has been outsourced the job of installation or configuring or something contacts me for support. Uh huh...am I supposed to support and re-train every new person the member outsources to? No way Jose - ain't gonna happen. Especially at the low cost of membership.

          Any way you look at it, sharing a product that only had Personal Use rights is wrong. If you pass on the gist of it verbally to others (or in writing) that's different. You're passing on your interpretation of it - not the product itself.

          I don't understand the "Cheap *******" mentality that certain people have about springing for two or three legitimate copies of something for people they work with. I always pay for these myself, especially for some pretty hefty developer licensing fees.

          If you as the product owner don't have a problem with it, that's your call. But it isn't the customer's decision - at minimum they should ask.
          This makes sense.

          These kind of threads crack me up because it really shows how many people miss the mark.

          Is handing out copies to a friend or outsourcer unethical or illegal? Probably so but, as someone who creates products and sells them online, I don't really care.

          First, Handing out a copy of something is world's different than finding your stuff on a warez site where hundreds of people have access to it. Those people will never be a customer and will never pay for things, no matter how good it is.

          But to quibble over someone giving your product to an outsourcer (who most likely could care less about your stuff anyways) or to a close friend (who could become a customer) is really lame, imo.

          And really, if your product is good enough and if you have other products and backend products to sell (assuming you have given folks a way to find you in your product), then having one of my customers give my book away and gaining a new lifetime customer is worth losing $27,$37,$47....$97....in sales.

          I mean, after all, we are in it for the "lifetime" of the customer, not a one and done sale, aren't we?

          The funniest part of this is that most internet marketers claim that they want to help others. In reality, reading a thread like this is nothing more than an exercise in narcissism from the marketer's point of view.

          Very rigid way of thinking in my opinion. While I would never condone someone taking my work and "outsourcing" it or giving it away to a friend (once again, not sharing it with the world...we are talking one on one), I really wouldn't lose sleep over it either if they did it and I discovered it.

          To me, when everything is said and done, I may have acquired a new customer through it. But that is just how I see it.
          This doesn’t. So I’m a narcissist because I don’t want people to unlawfully distribute my products and explicitly state it in my terms so even a 1st grader can get it, well if it makes me so then I guess I am… anyway I thought I was asking for seasoned warrior’s opinions.

          The thread title is, "Do your WSO customers have the right to distribute your product?"

          The answer is, "It depends."

          For those that are trying to make this complicated, take a deep breath and let this sink in.

          Ready?

          If you give them the rights to do so, then YES.

          If you don't give them the rights, then NO.

          No exceptions, excuses, justifications, rationalizations, reasons, alternatives, or grey areas.

          ~Michael
          Another logical post that makes 100% sense to me. Ok, I’m glad to see that other warriors agree with me.
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          • Profile picture of the author Simon_Sezs
            Originally Posted by dougp View Post


            That’s interesting to hear. If that’s the case and you are or ever get in the b2b market, then you will lose a whole lot of money with people distributing your products to their “partners” “freelancers” etc. before you know it, they will be distributing it to their list. Maybe it’s just me, but I would feel wrong distributing any product purchase to my freelancers and I have a lot of them.
            Kind of going overboard there, don't you think? Most people won't freely distribute a product just because they can. Like I said before, most of the stuff that would require outsourcing wouldn't interest the outsourcers enough for them to do more than a quick scan...never mind sending it to their people.


            Originally Posted by dougp View Post

            So I’m a narcissist because I don’t want people to unlawfully distribute my products and explicitly state it in my terms so even a 1st grader can get it, well if it makes me so then I guess I am… anyway I thought I was asking for seasoned warrior’s opinions.
            If that is the case, then I guess you have answered your own question, right? If you were asking for seasoned warriors (seasoned=years on the forum and not years in the game), I apologize.


            Originally Posted by dougp View Post

            Another logical post that makes 100% sense to me. Ok, I’m glad to see that other warriors agree with me.
            It makes sense to you because you have already decided your stance before you even posed the question AND of course other marketers are going to agree with you...they have their own agenda because they deliver digital products as well.

            The only point I am making is that marketers make this big brew-ha-ha about theft when most of the time there is very little you can do about it. And rather than hold onto those lemons, you should try to make lemonade instead.

            Tell the person in question that it isn't allowed and be done with it.
            That is the answer you want anyway.

            If you really have a problem with digital theft then send the products snail mail.

            The problem with instantaneous downloads is the potential for instantaneous uploads. It happens....
            Signature
            "Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing." Ben Franklin
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        • Profile picture of the author John Rowe
          Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

          No exceptions, excuses, justifications, rationalizations, reasons, alternatives, or grey areas.
          You buy a WSO for $197. It’s 200 Wordpress templates. The WSO rights say you can modify the templates and that they are for personal use only.

          You want to add a simple copyright to each page but you’re clueless on how to do it because you only know how to smoke cigars and make money. Your wonderful programmer and CSS expert says he can do it in less than 10 seconds flat, so you’re happy.

          But wait. Must I buy him his own set? I’m not sure, so I go ask Bev or Michael Oksa. Mike says there is no grey area here so the answer is clear. Bev calls me a skinflint and turns her back in disgust.

          I decide that they must be the right ones here, so I go grab another set for my programmer and even get a 10% discount from the seller - the nice guy that he is.

          I send the package to my CSS Guy and happily wait the 10 seconds.

          But instead of getting back the adjusted templates in his reply email, I get a very distraught message telling me that he received the templates, but also that his wife just left him, so he’s going to kill himself without doing the job for me.

          Yikes.

          Being the quick thinker that I am, I give him a ring and tell him to at least change the templates before loading the gun. After all, I shelled out extra cash for them.

          I hear the gun go off, so now I’m left there with the phone to my ear, having to find another programmer.

          Surely I don’t have buy another set for the new guy, right? Then I remember Michael and the bit about no exceptions, excuses, justifications, rationalizations, reasons, alternatives. And I’m afraid of Bev, so I don’t dare ask her again. I just do the right thing...

          Learn CSS and Worpress.
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          • Profile picture of the author VinceNouvel
            John is this for real? about ur css guy? OMG
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          • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
            Originally Posted by John Rowe View Post

            You buy a WSO for $197. It’s 200 Wordpress templates. The WSO rights say you can modify the templates and that they are for personal use only.

            You want to add a simple copyright to each page but you’re clueless on how to do it because you only know how to smoke cigars and make money. Your wonderful programmer and CSS expert says he can do it in less than 10 seconds flat, so you’re happy.

            But wait. Must I buy him his own set? I’m not sure, so I go ask Bev or Michael Oksa. Mike says there is no gray area here so the answer is clear. Bev calls me a skinflint and turns her back in disgust.

            I decide that they must be the right ones here, so I go grab another set for my programmer and even get a 10% discount from the seller - the nice guy that he is.

            I send the package to my CSS Guy and happily wait the 10 seconds.

            But instead of getting back the adjusted templates in his reply email, I get a very distraught message telling me that he received the templates, but also that his wife just left him, so he’s going to kill himself without doing the job for me.

            Yikes.

            Being the selfish ******* I am, I give him a ring and tell him to at least change the templates before loading the gun. After all, I shelled out extra cash for them.

            I hear the gun go off, so I’m left there with the phone to my ear, having to find another programmer.

            Surely I don’t have buy another set for the new guy, right? Then I remember Michael and the bit about no exceptions, excuses, justifications, rationalizations, reasons, alternatives. And I’m afraid of Bev, so I don’t dare ask her again. I just do the right thing...

            Learn CSS and Worpress.
            I stand corrected (sort of).

            If such a convoluted event were to take place, then I say the only grey area is that you could go ahead and contact the only person who can make a decision on the matter - and that's the original seller.

            Heck, you could even ask before you buy the 2nd set of templates. But you can't just assume it's okay. AND, by contacting the seller, you are possibly getting a new set of rights - which leads me right back to my point.

            So, while it seems to be a grey area, it really isn't if you are able to get permission from the seller.

            I'm sure I could come up with all kinds of storybook examples to prove my point, too. But I'd rather stick to real world examples, such as those provided in the OP.

            ~Michael
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            "Ich bin en fuego!"
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            • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
              Honestly people, please use a little common sense and just read the allowed terms of products.

              The OP said the product terms allowed personal use only. That means for that one person and under no conditions for anyone else.

              Unless some of you are unclear what "personal" actually means:
              personal definition |Dictionary.com

              per·son·al
              1. of, pertaining to, or coming as from a particular person; individual; private: a personal opinion.
              2. relating to, directed to, or intended for a particular person: a personal favor; one's personal life; a letter marked “Personal.”
              3. intended for use by one person: a personal car.
              4. referring or directed to a particular person in a disparaging or offensive sense or manner, usually involving character, behavior, appearance, etc.: personal remarks.
              5. making personal remarks or attacks: to become personal in a dispute.
              6. done, carried out, held, etc., in person: a personal interview.
              7. pertaining to or characteristic of a person or self-conscious being: That is my personal belief.
              8. of the nature of an individual rational being.
              9. pertaining to the body, clothing, or appearance: personal cleanliness.
              10. provided for one's discretionary use: Employees are allowed 15 vacation days and two personal days.
              11. Grammar. a. noting person: In Latin portō “I carry,” -ō is a personal ending.
              b. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the personal pronoun.

              12. Law. of or pertaining to personal property: personal interests.
              Unless the products terms clearly state that you can pass along the product under special situations then you DO NOT HAVE THAT RIGHT.

              The product belongs to the creator and all rights to the product belong to the creator. YOU ONLY HAVE THE RIGHTS WHICH ARE CLEARLY SPELLED OUT AND EXPRESSLY GIVEN TO YOU BY THE CREATOR. Under copyright law only those terms and conditions which the creator expressly spells out are allowed. Omission of a condition expressly implies that it is reserved by the creator.

              The same applies to products being sold by someone who isn't a creator as well. Only those terms and conditions which are clearly spelled out are granted to you. If it doesn't expressly say you can do it then you cant!
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            • Profile picture of the author John Rowe
              Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

              I'd rather stick to real world examples.
              Michael, my example was ridiculous for a reason. It shows that the number of real world examples are limitless, not the opposite. Outsourcing can be unreliable. The stories here on the board are rampant about sourcing out jobs several times before having things done correctly, or even at all.

              Stealing is one thing, but I'm not a sadist with my money either.
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              • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                Originally Posted by John Rowe View Post

                Michael, my example was ridiculous for a reason. It shows that the number of real world examples are limitless, not the opposite. Outsourcing can be unreliable. The stories here on the board are rampant about sourcing out jobs several times before having things done correctly, or even at all.

                Stealing is one thing, but I'm not a sadist with my money either.
                And nor should we expect product creators that grant personal rights only to not get paid. Now, as I mentioned, the easiest way to solve the problem presented in your tale is to explain to the product creator what has happened and see if you can pass it along to someone else.

                Outsourcing can be unreliable, but it is not the product creator's problem if you have a problem with your outsourcing. But you can always try to explain what you have in mind and see if they are okay with it.

                Let's use your example, but reverse it a bit.

                You give work to your outsourcer, but this time things go well. They finish the work on time.

                BUT, instead of forwarding the finished product to onlyyou, they decide to give it to a few of the other people that they outsource for. No real harm, they're just rying to make it easier for them.

                I fully admit that it sounds ridiculous, but what is the difference between my example and yours?

                ~Michael
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                "Ich bin en fuego!"
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                • Profile picture of the author Glenn Newsome
                  Ok, I am a WSO addict. I have already a quiet large WSO collection. I assume it will get much bigger.
                  I am going to leave them to someone in my will--Damn the rights!
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                  AKA "webnetincome" before the big name changes!
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          • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
            Banned
            [DELETED]
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            • Profile picture of the author dougp
              The funny thing is the offender was log in and viewing this thread today but never responded back to my messages. I just pmed mmurtha and will list this warrior wit all of her details on her name and shame site since we cant publically do it on this forum. I will also carry out the procedures that I would, started a day late on it because i was busy. Will keep everyone on this thread updated about the progress.

              Doug
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              • Profile picture of the author EdwardMoore
                Hello,

                I have to agree with Big Mike. If someone purchases a product (ebook, software, template, etc.) and it has Personal Use rights ONLY and no Resale Rights or other rights. Then it should be fine for that person's tech person to see and have a copy to do whatever they need to get it to work for the person that bought it. Now, this does NOT give the tech person a right to steal a copy for their own sites or use (but lets face it sometimes this will happen). This way the only person using the product is actually going to be the person that bought it, and therefore should only be one tech support contact.

                That's why, everything you build and create should be viral, so that if and when a copy gets into another person's hands, and if they click on a link it will help you in the long run.

                As I stated above, the person should be able to have a tech person work on the product for them if needed, BUT I don't think someone should be able to distribute a copy to 5 or 10 outsourcers or employees, as this is excessive. Like I stated earlier, if this is the case then they should create a report of their own with the key points in it and distribute that and not the original work.

                To your health,
                Edward Moore
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  What kind of "progress" do you expect? Is your goal to "shame" the person into paying you for additional copies?

                  You had a valid complaint - but your anger seems to keep growing. Turning a seller/buyer dispute into a public flaming war can backfire if carried too far.

                  What good is the WF rule about "naming" - if you then just announce WHERE you will name/shame someone? Not good as it circumvents the rule here.

                  kay
                  Signature

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                • That's one thing I've done. If nothing else, it helps my peace of mind when I realize that people are stealing my products. Now, I don't publish ANY product that doesn't include at least ONE link to another, relevant product that I have.

                  Originally Posted by EdwardMoore View Post

                  Hello,

                  I have to agree with Big Mike. If someone purchases a product (ebook, software, template, etc.) and it has Personal Use rights ONLY and no Resale Rights or other rights. Then it should be fine for that person's tech person to see and have a copy to do whatever they need to get it to work for the person that bought it. Now, this does NOT give the tech person a right to steal a copy for their own sites or use (but lets face it sometimes this will happen). This way the only person using the product is actually going to be the person that bought it, and therefore should only be one tech support contact.

                  That's why, everything you build and create should be viral, so that if and when a copy gets into another person's hands, and if they click on a link it will help you in the long run.

                  As I stated above, the person should be able to have a tech person work on the product for them if needed, BUT I don't think someone should be able to distribute a copy to 5 or 10 outsourcers or employees, as this is excessive. Like I stated earlier, if this is the case then they should create a report of their own with the key points in it and distribute that and not the original work.

                  To your health,
                  Edward Moore
                  Signature
                  -----------------------------------------


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              • Profile picture of the author Simon_Sezs
                Originally Posted by dougp View Post

                The funny thing is the offender was log in and viewing this thread today but never responded back to my messages. I just pmed mmurtha and will list this warrior wit all of her details on her name and shame site since we cant publically do it on this forum. I will also carry out the procedures that I would, started a day late on it because i was busy. Will keep everyone on this thread updated about the progress.

                Doug
                Ummm....isn't that against the rules?...to out someone publicly on the warrior forum? Man, just let it rest....you told her you had a problem with it...now let it go...
                Signature
                "Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing." Ben Franklin
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                • Profile picture of the author dougp
                  Originally Posted by Simon_Sezs View Post

                  Ummm....isn't that against the rules?...to out someone publicly on the warrior forum? Man, just let it rest....you told her you had a problem with it...now let it go...
                  Can you comprehend, or did you even bother reading the post that you just quoted. I won’t bother explaining myself to you. Anyhow, matters will be handled outside of the forum from here on. My main attentions were just to raise a question and gather feedback on it. Mods feel free to delete, lock, etc.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Short, simple and to the point.

        1. Sue her ass.

        2. Report her to Allen.

        3. Enjoy the aftermath.

        Revenge is a dish best served cold.
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    • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
      Steve, my rights will be changed as from today.

      For those who think it is OK to pass an ebook onto an outsourcer, what about passing it on to anyone, where do you draw the line?

      We are talking a low cost, so why can't you buy a copy for each person you are sending it to?

      I have worked for gurus and that's exactly what they did, they bought me a copy of the ebook to read.
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      • Profile picture of the author thatgirlJ
        Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

        For those who think it is OK to pass an ebook onto an outsourcer, what about passing it on to anyone, where do you draw the line?
        I'm off to write more, but the line I believe is acceptable is if it's for the person's personal business and for their business only. I guess you could say I believe it's like buying them (the person you outsource to) the copy in the first place. But if someone needed to send a process of mine to two people they outsourced to, I wouldn't mind since it's for their business Maybe it is something individual product owners need to think about and specify.
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  • Profile picture of the author deannatroupe
    I don't think it's fair to pass books along if you don't have the rights to. You are cheating the author out of money. Period. It's the same whether or not it's a physical product or a digital one.

    As far as Allen's question, it's okay to send him a copy of Rush as long as it's a legitimate copy. Now it's not okay to send him a copy of Rush that has been illegally copied. I hope that makes sense.
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    • Profile picture of the author thatgirlJ
      Originally Posted by deannatroupe View Post

      I don't think it's fair to pass books along if you don't have the rights to. You are cheating the author out of money. Period. It's the same whether or not it's a physical product or a digital one.

      I'm not being flip but, what about used book stores? Amazon marketplace? It's different with physical.
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  • Profile picture of the author matthewd
    I'm with Jeremy on this one too.

    In a recent interview I did about my product, someone asked about outsourcing my system and I said it is a brilliant system. Now, if they sent my ebook to their "employee" I would not care at all.

    What about partners on a website? I have a partner on a few different sites and if one of us picks up a book for the purpose of applying it to our joint site, we share it.

    Maybe, the best thing to do would be to email an author first and ask if they are opposed to this.
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    • Profile picture of the author dougp
      Ok, well it seems like the majority of warriors seem that they also agree that this wasn’t an ethical thing to do. I skimmed some of the responses and saw that Kay wanted to know how I found out, its my secret , but in reality it was really simple and actually really funny how I did. If someone wants to ask me a question about this situation in private feel free to pm me. Some warriors said that they think customers should be allowed to give free copies to people they freelance too. However, if you say that then where do you draw the line? Is it fair for a corporation to purchase one license to software and install it on all of their corporate computers for free? Just something to ponder about, because one thing I learned in my internet career is if you give a tiny lee way to do something, then some people may take it to the absolute extreme.

      Doug
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  • Profile picture of the author matthewd
    I think it is a bit harsh to say that they (I) have no understanding of business... in my opinion, in most cases the person that I would outsource to would never buy it anyway.

    I have only ever outsourced to personal friend... none of which are even in IM at all.

    I think it would be completely different if someone just sent it out for someone to use such as your example of sending it to their list.

    I do think that the best way to deal with this is simply to email the owner and ask how they feel about it... it would just solve everything right up front.
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  • Profile picture of the author Norma Holt
    Her rational was that I didn’t lose any money. Hmm, if that’s the case, it’s like someone pirating a movie or music online and saying that “they didn’t lose money.” Online piracy is estimated to cost what just millions of lost sales annually? Anyway, discuss.
    The thieves are out and about and anyone can be a victim. I like the PDF products that can be secured with passwords and no print or changes allowed. You can also put your web addressed in them so people can go there to find out who the author is.

    Just a different take on it.

    Sorry you have had this experience but you learn from your mistakes.
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    • Profile picture of the author KimW
      Originally Posted by norma View Post

      The thieves are out and about and anyone can be a victim. I like the PDF products that can be secured with passwords and no print or changes allowed. You can also put your web addressed in them so people can go there to find out who the author is.

      Just a different take on it.

      Sorry you have had this experience but you learn from your mistakes.
      I've only asked for a refund on one or two items in almost 15 years of IM, but if I buy from you and it has no print, that's a good way to get me to ask for one.
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  • Profile picture of the author Frank Ayres
    If it was my product i wouldnt mind people sending a copy to their outsourcers or staff to work from
    Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author Sarah Harvey
    dougp-

    A lesson you will learn very quickly. If you think that people distributing your wso here is bad. How about finding your wso on every damn hack site out there. Believe me it happens to everyone. Even stompernet has already been distributed beyond anything you know online. It's quite funny actually. People are so concerned about piracy, but they do not understand, that half of these people that gladly use piracy could also be your biggest buyer/client/customer.

    People just aren't aware.

    Have fun.
    Signature
    "Find the problem and provide the solution."
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  • Profile picture of the author Simon_Sezs
    These kind of threads crack me up because it really shows how many people miss the mark.

    Is handing out copies to a friend or outsourcer unethical or illegal? Probably so but, as someone who creates products and sells them online, I don't really care.

    First, Handing out a copy of something is world's different than finding your stuff on a warez site where hundreds of people have access to it. Those people will never be a customer and will never pay for things, no matter how good it is.

    But to quibble over someone giving your product to an outsourcer (who most likely could care less about your stuff anyways) or to a close friend (who could become a customer) is really lame, imo.

    And really, if your product is good enough and if you have other products and backend products to sell (assuming you have given folks a way to find you in your product), then having one of my customers give my book away and gaining a new lifetime customer is worth losing $27,$37,$47....$97....in sales.

    I mean, after all, we are in it for the "lifetime" of the customer, not a one and done sale, aren't we?

    The funniest part of this is that most internet marketers claim that they want to help others. In reality, reading a thread like this is nothing more than an exercise in narcissism from the marketer's point of view.

    Very rigid way of thinking in my opinion. While I would never condone someone taking my work and "outsourcing" it or giving it away to a friend (once again, not sharing it with the world...we are talking one on one), I really wouldn't lose sleep over it either if they did it and I discovered it.

    To me, when everything is said and done, I may have acquired a new customer through it. But that is just how I see it.
    Signature
    "Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing." Ben Franklin
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  • Profile picture of the author enrich
    Banned
    Well once you buy something you own it so of course you can share. If I go and buy a mountain bike does that mean I cant let anyone else ride on it?

    Once you purchase an item its yours and you can do what you like with it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Simon_Sezs
      Originally Posted by enrich View Post

      Well once you buy something you own it so of course you can share. If I go and buy a mountain bike does that mean I cant let anyone else ride on it?

      Once you purchase an item its yours and you can do what you like with it.
      ummmmmm.......short answer is no...
      Signature
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      • Profile picture of the author enrich
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Simon_Sezs View Post

        ummmmmm.......short answer is no...
        It's my bike and if anyone wants to ride it they can. So the short answer is yes.
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      • Profile picture of the author Allen Graves
        Sorry, but here we go again with Mountain Bikes and stuff.

        If I go get a driver license, then you can use it?

        We could go on all day with the analogies.

        But, we're talking about a WSO eBook...not a bike, not a book, not something you find in the store.

        You can't compare apples to oranges and expect it to all go away. You have to look at what it is. It's somewhat of a work of art that someone created to sell and make money with.

        Buying it and giving it away without permission is screwing the whole idea of the WSO itself...from both the sellers position and from Allen's position.

        AL
        Signature
        Every day I check the obituaries. If I don't see my name there, then I know it's going to be a good day!
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Norma -

          I'd advise caution about various "disabling" tricks.

          Where do you draw the line between providing what a buyer has purchased and giving him full use - and trying to prevent someone from using a product after refund?

          As someone who has purchased ebooks that require login info each time I open them - and ebooks only to find the "print" and "copy/paste" function disabled, I can tell you that in the end you are hurting yourself with these methods. Many of us do not read ebooks online - and I will request a refund any time I'm faced with "no print" or "no copy/paste".

          An honest purchaser deserves full, easy access to the product he purchased. This is the customer you want to keep - and it's not his job to protect your product from fraud or refunds.

          It's a good thing to keep in mind.

          kay
          Signature

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    • Profile picture of the author Mike McBride
      Originally Posted by enrich View Post

      Well once you buy something you own it so of course you can share. If I go and buy a mountain bike does that mean I cant let anyone else ride on it?

      Once you purchase an item its yours and you can do what you like with it.
      If you really believe that, and it's all you've gotten out of this thread, then you're in the wrong forum and probably not long for this business either.
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
      Originally Posted by enrich View Post

      Once you purchase an item its yours and you can do what you like with it.
      This is great news, since my friend is a surgeon, so I'm going to borrow his medical license and start doing discount operations in my spare bedroom.

      If anyone sues me, I'll borrow my other friend's law license and defend myself.

      Thanks for the tip!

      It's nice to know some people think a little stealing is OK.
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      • Profile picture of the author enrich
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood View Post

        This is great news, since my friend is a surgeon, so I'm going to borrow his medical license and start doing discount operations in my spare bedroom.

        If anyone sues me, I'll borrow my other friend's law license and defend myself.

        Thanks for the tip!

        It's nice to know some people think a little stealing is OK.
        That's different.
        Borrowing is not stealing. When you borrow something you are given permission to use it by the person who bought the item.
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        • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
          Originally Posted by enrich View Post

          That's different.
          Borrowing is not stealing. When you borrow something you are given permission to use it by the person who bought the item.
          LOL, someone actually took my silly doctor/lawyer example seriously?

          So you think it's OK for me to borrow someone's medical license and perform surgery, even though I have no medical training?
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          • Profile picture of the author enrich
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood View Post

            LOL, someone actually took my silly doctor/lawyer example seriously?

            So you think it's OK for me to borrow someone's medical license and perform surgery, even though I have no medical training?
            Of course not, I didnt say that. If you buy something you can lend it to other people (not medical licenses obviously)

            You cant make copies and distribute anything you buy (without permission) but you can let people borrow what you've bought.
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            • Profile picture of the author Allen Graves
              Originally Posted by enrich View Post

              Of course not, I didnt say that. If you buy something you can lend it to other people (not medical licenses obviously)

              You cant make copies and distribute anything you buy (without permission) but you can let people borrow what you've bought.

              Does that include, like a jock strap or hemmorhoidal ointment?

              AL

              p.s. sorry, couldn't resist.
              Signature
              Every day I check the obituaries. If I don't see my name there, then I know it's going to be a good day!
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              • Profile picture of the author enrich
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Allen Graves View Post

                Does that include, like a jock strap or hemmorhoidal ointment?

                AL

                p.s. sorry, couldn't resist.
                lol yes but probably not a good idea to borrow those items.
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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
                Originally Posted by Allen Graves View Post

                Does that include, like a jock strap or hemmorhoidal ointment?

                AL

                p.s. sorry, couldn't resist.
                ONLY if it's expressly written in the EULA, Al...

                C'mon...

                Steve

                P.S. I'm glad I replaced my original P.S. with this one...
                Signature

                Not promoting right now

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  • Profile picture of the author Mike McBride
    Oh, and a bit off topic, but Allen, 13 to 5, eh? Big night tonight!
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    • Profile picture of the author Allen Graves
      Thanks, Mike. Thanks.

      I almost had that exorcised from my memory.

      AL

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      Every day I check the obituaries. If I don't see my name there, then I know it's going to be a good day!
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    The thread title is, "Do your WSO customers have the right to distribute your product?"

    The answer is, "It depends."

    For those that are trying to make this complicated, take a deep breath and let this sink in.

    Ready?

    If you give them the rights to do so, then YES.

    If you don't give them the rights, then NO.

    No exceptions, excuses, justifications, rationalizations, reasons, alternatives, or grey areas.

    ~Michael
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  • Originally Posted by dougp View Post

    I need all of the seasoned warriors advice on how to handle a situation. Recently a warrior who has been here for some time actually admitted to distributing my product to her team of outsourcers. She wrote me a long pm which 95% of it made zero sense to me.

    First she said that I told her to distribute my product which is a beyond blatant lie that’s not even worth a giggle. However, her other point was that some people photocopy books that they have and share it or what not.

    I have problem with both cases but the part is she actually admitted to sending my product to her team of outsourcers and I tried to maintain calm and rational about the situation but by the way she is writing she doesn’t believe that she did anything wrong.

    I don’t care if it’s her team or freelancers or her favorite team of gurus that she sent my product too, if something is copyrighted and state explicitly in the terms that it’s for “personal use” only, then you can’t legally distribute it!

    So please, the seasoned warriors, what is your take on this and how would you handle this situation? Her rational was that I didn’t lose any money. Hmm, if that’s the case, it’s like someone pirating a movie or music online and saying that “they didn’t lose money.” Online piracy is estimated to cost what just millions of lost sales annually? Anyway, discuss.
    The distribution is illegal unless you have sold your product with distribution rights of any kind.

    Arindam
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  • Profile picture of the author MaskedMarketer
    I wouldn't worry about it. Focus on making more sales and money instead of the negative. This is what happens when you put digital information online.

    The minute you put your digital information online especially in the warrior forum expect it to be given away for free.
    Signature

    "One Man's Ceiling is Another Man's Floor
    "


    "I Pay Less Attention to What Men Say. I Just Watch What They Do."
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
    Erm..marketing forum?

    I'm glad this thread is still alive.

    Not many have discussed the 'real' difference between Publisher and Publicist.

    ...presumably because many are both.

    Steve

    P.S. John Rowe - I totally agree

    P.P.S. Mike Oksa - I totally agree

    P.P.P.S It's possible to be on BOTH sides when one realizes that both are right, albeit for different reasons.
    Signature

    Not promoting right now

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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by Steven Fullman View Post

      Erm..marketing forum?

      I'm glad this thread is still alive.

      Not many have discussed the 'real' difference between Publisher and Publicist.

      ...presumably because many are both.

      Steve

      P.S. John Rowe - I totally agree

      P.P.S. Mike Oksa - I totally agree

      P.P.P.S It's possible to be on BOTH sides when one realizes that both are right, albeit for different reasons.
      Steve,

      Spot on, as usual.

      You are right that two different sides to the issue can be correct. And both are worth discussing.

      ~Michael
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      "Ich bin en fuego!"
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      • Profile picture of the author John Rowe
        Originally Posted by Steven Fullman View Post

        P.S. John Rowe - I totally agree
        P.P.S. Mike Oksa - I totally agree
        Steven, how the heck can you have any fun with a stance like that?
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    • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
      Originally Posted by Steven Fullman View Post

      P.S. John Rowe - I totally agree

      P.P.S. Mike Oksa - I totally agree

      P.P.P.S It's possible to be on BOTH sides when one realizes that both are right, albeit for different reasons.
      You don't fool me for one second. You posted that because you wanted a reason to use the word albeit. HAH, you've been outed, to heck with rule #1. I am so glad to see that this thread is still alive. Are any of us still actually working?

      TomG. - From As the Warriors Turn
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