Do you use Single/Double Opt-in ?

by WinsonYeung 95 replies
Hi warriors,
Do you use single opt-in or double opt-in ?
Any reason that you are using single/double opt-in ?

I recently encounter this problem when using single opt-in
After i subscribe to my own list, the message cannot be deliver immediately,
the worst part is that it does not deliver to my hotmail account.

The only success message is to my Gmail account, but this happen after more than 12 hours.
Anyone know how to fix this problem?
I'm using GetResponder
#main internet marketing discussion forum #do you use single #double opt-in
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    Double opt-in for sure..

    Use Aweber to fix your issue!

    Jay
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    Bare Murkage.........

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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Sim
      No choice. Double opt-in because I'm using aweber
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    • Profile picture of the author braver55b
      Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

      Double opt-in for sure..

      Use Aweber to fix your issue!

      Jay
      I couldn't imagine not using double opt in given the possibility of spam complaints.

      Sure it might not convert as well but if you lead them to a page with step by step instructions on what they need to do and why, you should have more success.
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  • Profile picture of the author sparrow
    I use Aweber and the double optin, the only way to protect yourself

    Ed
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  • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
    Banned
    Originally Posted by winson1989 View Post

    Hi warriors,
    Do you use single opt-in or double opt-in ?
    Single optin always.

    It's nice to have the choice.

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    • Profile picture of the author WinsonYeung
      Any reason that you are using single/double opt-in ?
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      • Profile picture of the author Neil Morgan
        Single opt-in for me. No prizes for guessing which autoresponder I use.

        Why do I use single opt-in? Because loads of people don't confirm their subscription when using double opt-in. That won't be a surprise to those who have used double opt-in.

        However, there's a school of thought that says a double opted-in list is more responsive.

        I've tried both and single opt-in works for me every time.

        Cheers,

        Neil
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        • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
          I use double... no reason, just because it's the default setting on my AW account.
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          • Profile picture of the author Amund Opsahl
            Signle at the moment.
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            • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
              single opt-in, with aweber.
              double opt-in protects aweber (or whoever hosts your AR) from blacklists, etc - not you. Blacklists are based on the IP address of the mail server sending the email - not the domain name of the 'from' or the 'reply to' addresses, and not the domain names of any links in the email.
              Signature

              -Jason

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              • Profile picture of the author tkulzer
                Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

                Blacklists are based on the IP address of the mail server sending the email - not the domain name of the 'from' or the 'reply to' addresses, and not the domain names of any links in the email.
                Jason, you're horribly mistaken if you believe that is true.

                It's not.
                Signature

                Tom Kulzer
                CEO & Founder
                AWeber Communications, Inc.

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                • Profile picture of the author Michael Dominic
                  Double Opt-in.
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                  • Profile picture of the author BlogBrowser
                    Banned
                    [DELETED]
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                    • Profile picture of the author trafficwave
                      Double Opt-In ... always.

                      This is the only option allowed by TrafficWave.net AutoResponders.

                      More and more, email validation/audit services are requiring double opt-in as a part of best practices. Single opt-in leaves itself too open for abuses.

                      I'm of the opinion that double opt-in will continue to rise as the standard of responsible email marketers.
                      Signature

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                      Brian Rooney
                      TrafficWave.net Email Marketing AutoResponders
                      Email Marketing Blog

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                • Profile picture of the author Brian Tayler
                  Originally Posted by tkulzer View Post

                  Jason, you're horribly mistaken if you believe that is true.

                  It's not.
                  Really?

                  Link: DNSbl Information - Spam Database Lookup

                  Obviously not the ONLY spam database, but respectfully the biggest.

                  Anyone banning based on domain names and links is making a VERY haste decision. Sure spamassassin has tools to "read" the e-mail to look for similarities to other known-spam e-mails but this is far from banning based on actual domains and links.

                  Furthermore if I can put ANYTHING in my "From:" address... ANYTHING in my "To:" address and use a dynamic tinyurl or some other forever changing address in an e-mail... then what is the ONLY constant left in e-mail? Well the IP of the originating mail server of course (spoofable yes, but less likely than any other).

                  And since most of the databases with IPs of known spam servers also list dynamic IP ranges of customers (from Comcast, Sprint, Roadrunner, etc.) it also stops spammers from getting a dialup/cable connection and running a local mail server on their connection.

                  So, respecfully, you are wrong. IP addresses of the mail server *ARE* what is banned/blocked/listed in the database.

                  Thanks,
                  Brian
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                  • Profile picture of the author Britt Malka
                    Double opt-in - unless people are buying something and in order to get their link, they have to join. In that case I use single opt-in.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Jag82
                      I'm using Aweber - and it's double opt in for me. Quality is more important over quantity for me.

                      And what's more, you get better:

                      1. Response rate (open and click through)
                      2. Less unsubscribe rate
                      3. Less spam complaint rate.

                      It's a no-brainer for me.

                      And the point on people not verifying, yes, it happens. But we can help reduce that by giving the would-be subscribers step-by-step instructions on how to verify.

                      And also you can promise an incentive for verifying. Or tell them they will be missing out on future benefits (fear).

                      These helps.

                      Jag
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                      • Profile picture of the author Brian Edmondson
                        Question for everyone who says a double-opt in list is better for responsiveness...

                        If you're dealing with a situation when you are doing direct mail or anything where there is a relatively significant cost involved, I can see why you would want a more responsive list.

                        But when you're dealing with email marketing, where the cost of touching a prospect or customer is virtually nothing (ie: the incremental costs with GetResponse is $20 per 10,000 subscribers, which is a fraction of a penny), how does response matter? It seems like the response issue wouldn't matter unless you were dealing with extreme volume (millions of email addresses rather than tens or hundreds of thousands).

                        When you're dealing with a high volume / costs approaching zero email marketing model, I'd imagine that you could get significantly more money out of a single opt list over a double opt list. (see the previous post by Jonathon Locke)...

                        Most of the marketers I know (even the ones who preach "double opt" because it sounds correct to say) don't actually use double opt.

                        Thoughts?

                        Brian
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                        • Profile picture of the author Brian Tayler
                          Originally Posted by Brian Edmondson View Post

                          Question for everyone who says a double-opt in list is better for responsiveness...

                          If you're dealing with a situation when you are doing direct mail or anything where there is a relatively significant cost involved, I can see why you would want a more responsive list.

                          But when you're dealing with email marketing, where the cost of touching a prospect or customer is virtually nothing (ie: the incremental costs with GetResponse is $20 per 10,000 subscribers, which is a fraction of a penny), how does response matter? It seems like the response issue wouldn't matter unless you were dealing with extreme volume (millions of email addresses rather than tens or hundreds of thousands).

                          When you're dealing with a high volume / costs approaching zero email marketing model, I'd imagine that you could get significantly more money out of a single opt list over a double opt list. (see the previous post by Jonathon Locke)...

                          Most of the marketers I know (even the ones who preach "double opt" because it sounds correct to say) don't actually use double opt.

                          Thoughts?

                          Brian
                          I agree Brian.

                          I'm not spending anymore for a list of 10,000 single opt-ins than a list of 5,000 doubt opt-ins. Maybe in PERCENTAGE the 5,000 list is more responsive... but I still have a higher NUMBER of responses on the 10,000 list.

                          To me *THAT* is a no brainer
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                      • Profile picture of the author Folusho
                        I have a list of over 45k just in the IM niche and I use single optin with Get Response and Aweber.

                        To me it's more important to make more money than it is to have a more responsive list. So since you'll be able to offer more people your product with single opt in, the choice for me is obvious.

                        But a trick that I use to even find more responsive subscribers using single opt in is by making people that subscribe the first time, subscribe again using their phone number, name and email address as well.

                        When you pay for advertising on PPC like I do, it's more important to have a higher ROI than have a more responsive list..
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                        • Profile picture of the author jjpmarketing
                          If you create enough value in what you are providing in exchange for their email address, then using double opt in signups should have minimal effects on your opt in conversion rate.

                          I used double opt in because it prevents a bot from signing up, and it lets me know the user is interested enough to fill out a form and then go back to their email account and click a link to verify. It also lets me know they are actually reading my emails... at least initially.
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                  • Profile picture of the author tkulzer
                    Originally Posted by Brian Tayler View Post

                    Really?
                    So, respecfully, you are wrong. IP addresses of the mail server *ARE* what is banned/blocked/listed in the database.
                    IP addresses are 1 part of what is blocked at times, but it's by no means
                    the only method of blocking. Just one public example from a major ISP
                    included below.

                    -Tom

                    http://postmaster.aol.com/errors/index.html

                    HVU Blocks:
                    - Click the error code for more information and troubleshooting.

                    * 554 HVU:B1
                    http://postmaster.info.aol.com/errors/554hvub1.html
                    There is at least one URL in your e-mail that is generating substantial complaints from AOL members.

                    * 554 HVU:SR
                    http://postmaster.info.aol.com/errors/554hvusr.html
                    Your e-mail contains a redirecting URL which AOL's servers will not accept.

                    * 554 HVU:NR
                    http://postmaster.info.aol.com/errors/554hvunr.html
                    AOL requires that all URLs in an e-mail comply with the internet guidelines pertaining to URL and domain name formatting.

                    * HVU:WEB
                    http://postmaster.info.aol.com/errors/hvuweb.html
                    This website has been blocked due to AOL Member Complaints.
                    Signature

                    Tom Kulzer
                    CEO & Founder
                    AWeber Communications, Inc.

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                    • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
                      One question.

                      This is "Myers Territory".

                      Where is he?

                      Steve
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                      Not promoting right now

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                    • Profile picture of the author warriorjunky
                      For non IM niches, single opt-in is working like a charm for me and for IM niche you must do a double opt-in. That's what my sites data says.

                      Guys

                      How do I change from using double opt in to
                      single opt in. I am currently on aweber.

                      I know it is against their TOS they will not allow
                      this to happen.

                      The problem is I am on a yearly payment plan
                      and I got billed for this 2 weeks ago.

                      How can I remedy this problem.

                      J. Waza
                      Log in to your aweber account then go to "List Settings" then "Verified Opt-in" then look for "Status" - "ON". Simply click the "ON" link. You'll see the status is changed to "OFF". That's it. If you would like to re-activate than click the same link.

                      Hope this helps.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Andy Money
                      Double is good for safety but it immediately discourages people who are "on the fence"
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                      • Profile picture of the author trafficwave
                        That's easy to overcome. Explain to them that you are wanting to make sure someone hasn't forged their address or entered it without their permission (further building your credibility).

                        And offer them a "freebie" bonus/ebook/download/article that they will have access to after they confirm.
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                        TrafficWave.net Email Marketing AutoResponders
                        Email Marketing Blog

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                    • Profile picture of the author mrmcd
                      I suggest to use double, even though you do lose out on some subscribers, you want to protect yourself from beeing looked as a spammer. You can still cash in on the ones that don;t confirm their email, send them to a adsense page after filling the form.
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                    • Profile picture of the author andrew_writes
                      The infinite responder script I use has the option of single and double opt in. I usually use double when I want to be sure that the signup is not a bogus one.

                      I use single opt in for instant gift downloads as the person does not have to confirm anything.

                      The thing is that people usually get to my single opt ins through a double opt in.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Sean Donahoe
                      As you can see from this thread, double opt in tends to be more prevalent for the majority of marketers. Not only does double opt-in protect the email senders (AW or GR) but it does mean you have a better list of committed subscribers. I prefer having a cleaner list of prospects that convert higher.

                      Even if i am not using one of the afore mentioned services I still prefer double opt-in and incentives have always worked great for signing up new members.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Daniel E Taylor
                        Originally Posted by Chikira View Post

                        As you can see from this thread, double opt in tends to be more prevalent for the majority of marketers. Not only does double opt-in protect the email senders (AW or GR) but it does mean you have a better list of committed subscribers. I prefer having a cleaner list of prospects that convert higher.

                        Even if i am not using one of the afore mentioned services I still prefer double opt-in and incentives have always worked great for signing up new members.
                        LOL. You must really have a bad case of,

                        "Screw reality I'm going to just say whatever sounds good",

                        Because I read every post in this thread, and I didn't "see" that
                        what so ever.
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                        else is an illusion.

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                    • Profile picture of the author bauger
                      I use double opt in. If someone really wants what you offering then can go click a link in their mail. Single opt in anyone can just grab whatever from you with a bogus email.

                      Bruno
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                    • Profile picture of the author robert key
                      Hi Warriors,

                      This talk of single vs. double opt-in is interesting. I am in the pet niche
                      and I am launching a product next week and I'm thinking about going
                      with double opt-in.

                      I find it interesting that the big companies that build lists don't waste
                      their time with double opt-in. Case in point - go to MotleyFool.com &
                      you'll notice that they collect just the email address and it's single opt-in.

                      They don't even send you a confirmation to say that you've signed up. I
                      guess they figure you should know if you signed up to their newsletter.

                      I think double opt-in gives you that 'protection' you need against some of
                      the idiots that cry spam, etc.

                      Just my 2c...

                      Robert
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                    • Profile picture of the author naruq
                      I use both single and double opt-in.
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                      Please do not use affiliate links in signatures

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                    • Profile picture of the author dollarware
                      What about having the person subscribe by sending an email to the autoresponder?

                      If you keep the email, why wouldn't that be proof that they subscribed?

                      This would just be one action required by the person to subscribe.

                      I guess there IS a problem, I just don't see it? Spoofing?

                      Thanks for any insight on this method.
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                • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
                  Originally Posted by tkulzer View Post

                  Jason, you're horribly mistaken if you believe that is true.

                  It's not.
                  really? show me one that isn't..

                  every blacklist I have dealt with was mail server IP based..

                  I've had clients leave their mail relay open, and discovered by spammers. Within hours, they were black listed. BY IP. Clearing each blacklist individually is a pain and time consuming (not to mention that some require a FEE). But, change their IP, and everything is fixed immediately.

                  think about it - this is the only thing in smtp that can not be easily faked or spoofed.

                  Anyone who has actually dealt with the blacklist services know it's IP based.

                  The domain based examples you provided from AOL are for links within email..
                  Signature

                  -Jason

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                  • Profile picture of the author tkulzer
                    Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

                    really? show me one that isn't..
                    every blacklist I have dealt with was mail server IP based..

                    Anyone who has actually dealt with the blacklist services know it's IP based.

                    The domain based examples you provided from AOL are for links within email..
                    Jason, with all due respect please look at my sig. I'm the founder of AWeber. I know
                    the email space pretty well.

                    Besides AOL, here's a few more examples for the non believers.

                    URIBL.COM - Realtime URI Blacklist
                    SURBL
                    Signature

                    Tom Kulzer
                    CEO & Founder
                    AWeber Communications, Inc.

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                    • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
                      Originally Posted by tkulzer View Post

                      Jason, with all due respect please look at my sig. I'm the founder of AWeber. I know
                      the email space pretty well.
                      Mike F. is a very successfull marketer - that doesn't mean I would back down from debate with him regarding his email frequency soley because of his 'credentials'

                      Because this is your bread and butter, I have no doubt you know every black list and twist out there.. but that doesn't make them all relevant And frankly, you have a vested interest in covering every possible little crack and nuance (no matter how minor), as well as protecting your servers IP's.

                      I still stand by comments.. I've had to help many people get off blacklists, and it was always an IP issue and an IP fix.

                      A black list of domains used within email bodies is not the really the same thing. They're meant to be used to block individual emails based on content. Such a black list is questionable I would think, as it could easily be manipulated and abused. Anyone with an affiliate program would be in SERIOUS danger of landing on such list.

                      * All my comments are based on a simple premise: the person involved is not actually a spammer. *


                      I use and like aweber, and it's not in my best interest to antagonize you, so I will leave my comments at that.
                      Signature

                      -Jason

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                  • Profile picture of the author KentM
                    Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

                    really? show me one that isn't..

                    every blacklist I have dealt with was mail server IP based.
                    Actually times are changing and some blacklists are more reputation based as opposed to the IP address only. Senderbase is the first one that I can think of, if you have a bad sending reputation you will have a hard time getting any email through Ironport Spam filters.

                    While it is true that there is no law against single optin, there is also no law that says a blacklist agency has to remove the listing against your IP if it's not double optin. OutBlaze is the first one that comes to mind that will NOT remove a listing unless you are 100% double optin or you have some friends high up in the company.

                    All this being said I have seen some people have great delivery rates that only use single optin. You would really have to be on top of things maintaining your lists, keeping your readers engaged and clearing out the crap, but it can be done.
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              • Profile picture of the author KentM
                Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

                Blacklists are based on the IP address of the mail server sending the email - not the domain name of the 'from' or the 'reply to' addresses, and not the domain names of any links in the email.
                As Mr. Kulzer stated if you really believe this you will have a lot of issues down the road with your domain. Besides the three that Mr.Kulzer already stated you have to include OutBlaze in that mix. There are at least a dozen if not more email providers that subscribe to OutBlaze and if your domain is listed with them and the URL is located in the message, it will be blocked. They are also notoriously bad to deal with and can be pretty demanding to have the blacklist removed.

                I am in the Email Delivery/ Abuse Department at 1ShoppingCart and I would recommend double optin. We do give merchants the ability to choose single or double optin for web form signups, but all imported client lists and direct subscribe signups are required to double optin.

                With double optin you know that the client who filled out the form and confirmed really want your messages. Besides having a higher delivery rate the email service provider will have some pull when they have to talk to blacklist agencies or internet providers about delivery issues.

                With single optin you can never be sure that the person who filled out your form actually owns the email address they used. When you add in spam trap email addresses and spam bots your list will be junk. You may have a list of 100,000 email addresses, but if you are only getting 60% delivery rate they aren't doing you very good. If you happen to get blacklisted and you will the first thing they will tell you is that in order to have the listing removed is to go COI, OutBlaze is the biggest one that will do that. You also have an issue with the amount of invalid email addresses that are going to be filling your database. With some email providers now-a-days when you send to too many invalids they will start blocking your email.

                At one time email marketing was about throwing as much "stuff" at the wall and hope some of it stuck, it does not work anymore.

                We have a merchant who uses our Dedicated IP service, uses double optin, takes care of his lists and subscribes to email best practices and he has a delivery rate of 99.45%. On the other hand we have a merchant who uses single optin, has junk in their list and doesn't really care what they send out and their delivery rate is 60.83%. To be fair these merchant both have about the same database size, roughly 50,000 clients. Big difference in delivery rates if you ask me.

                Kent McGovern
                1ShoppingCart
                Email Delivery/ Abuse Department
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  • Profile picture of the author yuyuan
    Double Opt-in.. I always think that it is best to get "committed" people into your list... at least by comfirming their email address, it shows some comittment and desire from their side.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jim B.
    Hi Winson1989,

    Only double opt-in for me. Single opt-in might result in a bigger list, but I'd rather have a smaller list with more commited and responsive people.

    All the best,
    Jim
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    • Profile picture of the author Jesus Perez
      For those of you on Shared hosting...be careful when using single optin and your own autoresponder script.

      Shared hosts will suspend or shut you down if they get complaints and you can't provide proof of double-optin.

      Dedicated and VPS hosts are much more lenient. But even they treasure their IP addresses.
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      • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
        Originally Posted by BlueSquares View Post

        For those of you on Shared hosting...be careful when using single optin and your own autoresponder script.

        Shared hosts will suspend or shut you down if they get complaints and you can't provide proof of double-optin.

        Dedicated and VPS hosts are much more lenient. But even they treasure their IP addresses.
        true - if was hosting my own autoresponder, I would NEVER use single opt-in. I've had to get clients removed from blacklists before - VERY painfull.
        Signature

        -Jason

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        • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
          Double opt-in only, even if Aweber didn't specify it. Reason? I build quality lists that respond, not crap lists full of non-responsive lookee-loos.
          Signature
          Kevin Riley, Kevin Riley Publishing, Osaka, Japan


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          • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
            Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

            Double opt-in only, even if Aweber didn't specify it. Reason? I build quality lists that respond, not crap lists full of non-responsive lookee-loos.
            Kevin - those 'responders' are still on your list whether it's double or single - the other 20% or so 'non responders' on a single optin does not change that.

            And some of those lookee-loos will still respond to the right offer.. they might go for a $9 report, or click on some adsense ads on an a free report I post on my site for them.

            I'd rather make $11,000 from a 'watered down' single optin list of 12,000 people, vs. $10,000 from the 10,000 people on that list who would have confirmed a double optin.
            Signature

            -Jason

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            • Profile picture of the author Jonathon Locke
              Gotta go with Jason here on this, and say Single.

              A couple of reasons why:

              First off, I like to have an OTO or sales page right after they opt-into my list. With a double opt-in, they would have to be sent to a reminder page telling them to check their e-mail and confirm, rather than sending them to an OTO (single opt-in eliminates a step for them to take).

              I always hear people using double opt-in because their list is more "responsive". That might be true, but as Jason says, the people that would have confirmed are still in your e-mail list. Their might be some freebie-seekers as well, but in my experience the larger single opt-in list has out performed the double opt-in list every time. Think about it:

              Which e-mail list would you rather have:

              John - confirmed e-mail
              Stacie - confirmed e-mail
              Ryan - confirmed e-mail
              Matt - confirmed e-mail
              Jeremiah - confirmed e-mail


              or


              John - would have confirmed e-mail
              Stacie - would have confirmed e-mail
              Ryan - would have confirmed e-mail
              Matt - would have confirmed e-mail
              Jeremiah - would have confirmed e-mail
              George - would have confirmed e-mail, but forgot to
              Brett - would have confirmed e-mail, but forgot to
              Elise - freebie seeker, but might buy a real cheap report
              Jenny - freebie seeker, but might buy a real cheap report
              Gina - freebie seeker, but might buy a real cheap report



              The choice seems obvious to me . I know some people are using double opt-in to protect themselves from spam reports, but those have came for both single and double opt-in for me, so I just choose to use single. Have a good one!

              Much Success,
              Jonathon Locke
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              • Profile picture of the author WinsonYeung
                Wow, i agree...
                Since single opt-in will still have all the subscriber that has not "confirmed".
                The advantages is more.
                Thanks for all the reply, Warriors !!


                Originally Posted by Jonathon Locke View Post

                Gotta go with Jason here on this, and say Single.

                A couple of reasons why:

                First off, I like to have an OTO or sales page right after they opt-into my list. With a double opt-in, they would have to be sent to a reminder page telling them to check their e-mail and confirm, rather than sending them to an OTO (single opt-in eliminates a step for them to take).

                I always hear people using double opt-in because their list is more "responsive". That might be true, but as Jason says, the people that would have confirmed are still in your e-mail list. Their might be some freebie-seekers as well, but in my experience the larger single opt-in list has out performed the double opt-in list every time. Think about it:

                Which e-mail list would you rather have:

                John - confirmed e-mail
                Stacie - confirmed e-mail
                Ryan - confirmed e-mail
                Matt - confirmed e-mail
                Jeremiah - confirmed e-mail


                or


                John - would have confirmed e-mail
                Stacie - would have confirmed e-mail
                Ryan - would have confirmed e-mail
                Matt - would have confirmed e-mail
                Jeremiah - would have confirmed e-mail
                George - would have confirmed e-mail, but forgot to
                Brett - would have confirmed e-mail, but forgot to
                Elise - freebie seeker, but might buy a real cheap report
                Jenny - freebie seeker, but might buy a real cheap report
                Gina - freebie seeker, but might buy a real cheap report



                The choice seems obvious to me . I know some people are using double opt-in to protect themselves from spam reports, but those have came for both single and double opt-in for me, so I just choose to use single. Have a good one!

                Much Success,
                Jonathon Locke
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                • Profile picture of the author Simon_Sezs
                  double opt-in is definitely the way to go...
                  Signature
                  "Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing." Ben Franklin
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                  • Profile picture of the author thegamecat
                    Should use a "both" option to the poll.

                    I use double optin for a free downloadable product to ensure i'm getting genuine details and a fully interested person added to my list.

                    Single optin for a squeeze page -> sales page -> purchase. Mainly so the user is not distracted from the sales process.
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              • Profile picture of the author Hardi Wijaya
                Originally Posted by Jonathon Locke View Post

                I know some people are using double opt-in to protect themselves from spam reports
                That's their usual assumption. But how much protection can they get? In truth, not much and too little. Because most 3rd party providers and hostings don't want to guarantee this. In fact, I've yet to find one that promises this.

                The only sure thing we can do is to read the TOS first, and check whether the provider/hosting is IM friendly.


                Hardi
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              • Profile picture of the author Kelvin Brown
                Originally Posted by Jonathon Locke View Post

                Gotta go with Jason here on this, and say Single.

                A couple of reasons why:

                First off, I like to have an OTO or sales page right after they opt-into my list. With a double opt-in, they would have to be sent to a reminder page telling them to check their e-mail and confirm, rather than sending them to an OTO (single opt-in eliminates a step for them to take).
                Not entirely accurate. With most some services including aweber and my own Followup101.com, you can, and should customize the confirmation page. Most people just don't.

                So, using double opt-in, you can make your OTO offer on the confirmation page, and still place at the top or bottom of the page, a note to say check your email.

                I say to you now, if you are using either service, you should stop right now, and start customizing all your thank you pages and confirmation pages.

                This is what really helps those who have to use double opt-in increase confirmations and awareness. When you are forced to use a confirmation page, your subscribers will see a page with branding. Do you want to see a success page that says," You must now confirm your message, please check email."

                Or would you rather have them see a page with full customizaton, where they see your colors, your images, your branding, maybe add a an audio or video message asking them to check their email. The confirmation page gives you one more chance to burn your branding or message into the prospects memory.

                You could use the confirmation page, to upsell, cross sell, to reconfirm or re-establish why it is important to open that email.

                You can use the confirmation page to actually deliver your product, or maybe a bonus product. Often by giving this bonus, the recipient may feel obligated to do you the favor of making sure to take the extra step of confirming your message.

                So, if you are using a service that does not allow you to modify the confirmation page, consider finding one that does.

                And with followup101, it passes the subscriber name to the confirmation page, so that you can not only brand the page but personalize it after capturing the subscribers name.

                Kelvin Followup101.com: Home of the Affordable Autoresponder
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                Kelvin Brown

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                • Kelvin is right. With a custom confirmation page, you can
                  put anything you want on there...including a one time offer.

                  I won't get into the debate over which is best-single or double
                  opt in, but since both the services I use require double, why not
                  take advantage of the confirmation page and throw in an OTO,
                  or even another freebie to make sure they do confirm their
                  subscription.

                  It's just another opportunity to remind prospects to click on the
                  link in the email, and give them another reason why they would want to.

                  Michael
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                  • Profile picture of the author Daniel E Taylor
                    I've read all the post, and yea some "sound good in theory",

                    but here is from someone who actually made the switch, in a niche
                    market, doing significant numbers.

                    The argument of a "more responsive list" is a misleading one.

                    What the hell is "more responsive". Sure your PERCENTAGES
                    on open rates, and link clicks may be higher,

                    but who gives a damn about that. It's about the actual numbers.

                    Who gives a shit if you get a 20% open rate on a list of 6000 double
                    opt ins.

                    I rather get 14% on 14,000 single opt ins.

                    at the end of the day I think it's pretty much common sense.

                    Some of you are acting like people WANT to confirm. The
                    people on your double opt-in lists honestly don't give
                    a shit if they had to confirm or not.

                    They just want to read your emails, and buy your shit. So
                    if it was single opt in, how the hell would that change?

                    Those people will STILL be on your list, just that the
                    other 30-50% that didn't confirm (for whatever reason)
                    will be on there to.

                    It's easy to "assume" that because someone didn't opt in,
                    they had no interest in your stuff.

                    Well my theory is if they had no interest in it, they wouldn't
                    have put their email in there in the first place. excluding
                    freebie seekers and idiots.

                    Think about this.

                    I get emails everyday from people who go "PLEASE DONT SEND ME
                    ANY MORE EMAILS", or "PLEASE TAKE ME OFF YOUR LIST".

                    Those same people could have easily just click the big ass link
                    that says "TO STOP RECEIVING EMAILS CLICK HERE".

                    well the fact is just because someone opens your email doesn't
                    mean they are going to click thru to a link.

                    Hence why click thru number is always lower than your open rate.

                    So naturally you're going to have a % of people who get the confirmation
                    email and just don't click the link.

                    Why would you just assume those people wouldn't be responsive
                    to any of your marketing?

                    Maybe your marketing sucks?

                    Who knows..

                    Just giving you points to ponder.

                    I switched from double opt in to single
                    and things have been growing ever since.

                    Daniel
                    Signature

                    Self Actualization is one's true purpose. Everything
                    else is an illusion.

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                    • Profile picture of the author Michael Lee
                      Double opt-in for me. Using aweber.

                      I'd rather have peace of mind. Anyone can enter someone else's email without their permission. And that could cause a lot of trouble.

                      That's what double opt-in is for - to make sure you have permission to send them future emails.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Kelvin Brown
                        Let me clarify my postition. As the owner of an autoresponder service, I don't allow my clients to have the option of single opt-in.

                        This is to protect my service for my customers as well as for myself.

                        So, my post was not about the benefits of double opt-in. It was about exploiting and taking advantage of it, if you are forced to use it.

                        Now, as for my personal tests, the double opt-in works better for me. And it has nothing to do with open rates, but everything to do with setting expections in the beginnning. I use confirmation pages to set the subscribers expections. I have signed up for tons of list sometimes to get what was offered, but often to study what happens after I give my name and address.

                        I find that I take more action when the confirmation page, says something the signup page did not.

                        Kelvin
                        Signature

                        Kelvin Brown

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                        • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
                          Originally Posted by Kelvin Brown View Post

                          Let me clarify my postition. As the owner of an autoresponder service, I don't allow my clients to have the option of single opt-in.

                          This is to protect my service for my customers as well as for myself.

                          So, my post was not about the benefits of double opt-in. It was about exploiting and taking advantage of it, if you are forced to use it.

                          Now, as for my personal tests, the double opt-in works better for me. And it has nothing to do with open rates, but everything to do with setting expections in the beginnning. I use confirmation pages to set the subscribers expections. I have signed up for tons of list sometimes to get what was offered, but often to study what happens after I give my name and address.

                          I find that I take more action when the confirmation page, says something the signup page did not.

                          Kelvin
                          Even if it were allowed, I would not opt for single opt-in. My double opt-in list are bettter lists.

                          Yes, a double opt-in list may not grow as quickly as a single opt-in list, but it is much higher quality. Those who confirm and double opt-in are more reactive members, and you will have a more reactive list.
                          Signature
                          Kevin Riley, Kevin Riley Publishing, Osaka, Japan


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                          • Profile picture of the author Keith Gilbert
                            I always use single optin and would never use double. You lose too many subscribers due to the double optin process (I've heard it's about 30%?). There are many reasons not to use double optin - people forget, people don't know what they're supposed to do or why (especially in one market I'm in), confirmation emails to the spam folder, and so on.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Ernie Lo
                              I use double optin, just feel more safer that way and you don't get the problem of people putting in fake emails, reduced spam complains etc.

                              A higher quality list in other words.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Michael Francis
                              Bottom line you have a choice. You can make more money with single optins although at more risk of bots or compliants or less money with double optin. This is what is all boils down to!

                              Example
                              Double optin 20,000 subscribers try to subscribe of that
                              say 11,000 confirm. As that is what im running at right now about 55% confirm in one of my niches

                              (same subscribers)
                              Single optin 20,000 subscribers try to subscribe and all of them are added
                              to your list.

                              Now its a numbers game.
                              You have the 11000 subscribers either way you go that would of confirmed. But now you have 9000 more emails.

                              You would be leaving money on the table by not trying this 9000 you have lost to see if they is even a small response. Same cost for you to maintain!

                              So i email 11000 double optin to a cpa offer of that 10% that click signup 5$ each with my double optin list. I made 550$

                              Now i email my list of 20000 single optin which has the same 11000 from above to a cpa offer. The same 11,000 above which sign up the same of 10% at 5$ each now i got the same 550$

                              Now even if the other 9000 was not so responsive say they have of the response 5% of 9000 extra emails at 5$ i got another couple hundred on the table.

                              So if you are not single optining you are leaving money on the table as its all a numbers game.

                              The problem with single optin is the autoresponders will request you go to double if you complaint rate is a little high and in get responses case they closed my account for having 1% compliant ration without warning or compromise.

                              Of that 1% they finally emailed me some percantages and of that 1 percent aol was the big problem as the other isp's had under .003% compliant.

                              My opt out rate was 20 times less than my compliant ratio go figure...
                              People are trigger happy and hit spam instead of opt out.

                              I don't know the figures on complaint ratios with double optin compared to single but i have seen some emails on my list like max@google.com so i assume someone is playing games........

                              More money with single there is not dispute on that!
                              But less risk with double!
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                • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
                  Originally Posted by Kelvin Brown View Post

                  So, using double opt-in, you can make your OTO offer on the confirmation page, and still place at the top or bottom of the page, a note to say check your email.
                  Exactly! I just did an OTO on an Aweber thank you page in Willie's giveaway. The prospect enters their name and e-mail to get my free report and is sent to the thank you page where an OTO offers a great deal. At the bottom, instead of the usual "No thank you, take me to my free report" link, I simply placed a notice about checking their e-mail box for the confirmation e-mail. Works like a charm.


                  I say to you now, if you are using either service, you should stop right now, and start customizing all your thank you pages and confirmation pages.

                  This is what really helps those who have to use double opt-in increase confirmations and awareness. When you are forced to use a confirmation page, your subscribers will see a page with branding. Do you want to see a success page that says," You must now confirm your message, please check email."
                  Yep! Confirmation pages are a great place to deliver your free reports, offer other products, or simply brand yourself more.
                  Signature
                  Kevin Riley, Kevin Riley Publishing, Osaka, Japan


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        • Profile picture of the author Kate Anderson
          Double opt-in, absolutely.

          By the way, does anyone know real quick whether Get Response allows you to set up campaigns that remove someone from one list when they subscribe to another list that you manage?

          I know aweber.com does this but does GR? (I haven't been able to locate that info in their FAQ/Help Pages)
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    • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
      Originally Posted by Jim B. View Post

      Hi Winson1989,

      Only double opt-in for me. Single opt-in might result in a bigger list, but I'd rather have a smaller list with more commited and responsive people.

      All the best,
      Jim
      with single opt-in, those people are still on your list.. as well as others who for some reason or another didn't confirm..

      I'd rather sell 10 widgets to 20 people, then 6 widgets to 10 people
      Signature

      -Jason

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  • I like making money, so for the time it takes me to check single optin, and get more subscribers and more money, I think its worth it.

    There is almost no advantage of using a double opt in autoresponder other than keeping list size small, whatever good that is worth.
    Signature

    Money isn't real, George. It doesn't matter. It only seems like it does.

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  • Profile picture of the author J.Knight
    Personally, I think single opt-in should be illegal.

    With single, some random spammer could enter in my email address, and I'd immediately be added to some dude's list that I didn't ask for, and if he wanted, he could start pounding my inbox, and I didn't even ask for it.

    I'd recommend double. Not because I've tested it to be better, but just because I think it's the 'right' thing to do to protect both parties.

    JK
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  • Profile picture of the author Phil Jones
    Single opt-in for customers.

    Double opt-in freebie offers.
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    • Profile picture of the author Bearded
      Originally Posted by Phil Jones View Post

      Single opt-in for customers.

      Double opt-in freebie offers.
      That's the single biggest problem I have with aweber. And talking to them about is like talking to a brick wall.

      I use double opt-in. Great. I know all about the "benefits."

      I also run a mailing list of 800,000 for a client.

      It's single opt in.

      We have 99.5% deliverability. We have less than .1% spam complaints.

      We've never had a major deliverability problem, save some hiccups with yahoo that I was able to fix pretty quickly.

      Regardless of what they say, double opt-in protects THEM and not YOU. (if you're using good email practices)

      This is ESPECIALLY obvious in markets that aren't particularly internet savvy.

      But whatever, I can live with aweber/double opt-in for my own lists.

      But the issue is, when someone buys something, I need to send them *transactional* messages. I know I could send it from my own server, but I like to kick off a series of emails. They explain how they should be using the product, and increase stick rate.

      It's *ASININE* for those people to have to confirm. They PAID for something.

      I'm absolutely planning on switching to email labs before my next launch, for this reason only.

      Thanks Aweber.

      Joe
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  • Profile picture of the author Anbelle
    Single with GetResponse. Because I was told by my mentor for the reason you get people easier on the list without having them to click twice. People are in general a bit lazy to unsubscribe so they keep getting your mails... And maybe at some point in the future buy something.
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    • Profile picture of the author spudzz
      As we seem to have all the major players commenting in this thread here's a couple I'd like answering:-

      1) Why is it whenever I get stuff chucked into the Spam box by Gmail (other than spam of course!) it's always, and I mean always, single opt-in (the best example being from someone who calls herself the Ezine Q**** which always goes into the spam absolutely because it's single opt-in - I checked with her email service provider).

      2) Tom, when the heck will you start accepting PayPal? ;-)))
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  • Profile picture of the author globalpro
    Single opt in for buyers, double opt in for sign ups. Worded right, the single opt in is effective for buyers (for me anyway).

    Thanks,

    John
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  • Profile picture of the author J.Knight
    Just a thought...

    What can be the expected unverifed percentage when using double opt-in in a non IM niche?

    JK
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  • Profile picture of the author SeanIM
    Single optin is what I prefer for a variety of reasons...

    There is no legal requirement for double-opt that I've ever found. Going overboard is an unnecessary security blanket imo...that causes for lower
    lead captures as even with double opt ins...sometimes those confirm emails end up in bulk folders, spam folders, or the phone rings or some other distraction takes them out of the confirmation mode...and ultimate they don't get what they were "originally" asking for. You still capture the IP and the CAN SPAM required data....soooo


    that's my 2c
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    Sean Mitchell - Publishing Your Passion
    Online Marketing Consultant Since 1999
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  • Profile picture of the author Khalil Bashir
    I tend to use double opt-in on my autoresponder marketing
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  • Profile picture of the author dsmpublishing
    I have used single in the past and had lots of complaints about spamming but since using aweber a couple of years ago which is double opt in ive not even had one complaint.

    I find that my customers like having double opt in as they trust it more and dont worry as much about you spamming them.
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  • Profile picture of the author DNATruth
    Single opt in for me always. Although double opt-in gives you a better targeted list you will lose somewhere around 50% of your potential prospects. Its really your preference.
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    • Profile picture of the author J.Knight
      Originally Posted by DNATruth View Post

      Single opt in for me always. Although double opt-in gives you a better targeted list you will lose somewhere around 50% of your potential prospects. Its really your preference.
      50%??? Is that a guess, or true dude?
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  • Profile picture of the author alvinhuang
    Single optin on aweber
    Double optin on 1SC as they use another server for broadcast and the delivery rates when we used single optin on 1SC was horrible.

    Generally keep IM niches on doubleoptin and non-im (presume them to be less tech savvy) on single optins.

    Alvin Huang
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    Happy Cool Hand Luke?

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  • Profile picture of the author JazLai
    Why is it that everyone says that double optin will
    be more responsive?

    It is not the confirmation that make your subscribers
    more responsive.

    It is the value you give to your subscribers that makes
    them responsive.

    I am currently rebuilding my list with single optin and it
    is only in the thousands.

    But I am able win some affiliate contests with IMers who
    have a list of 30,000 double optin or more.

    Not saying this to brag but to show that the responsiveness
    comes from your relationship with your subscribers, not whether
    they confirm their email or not.

    Simply said: I LOVE my subscribers and they LOVE me.
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  • Profile picture of the author Gary McCaffrey
    I use single opt-in.

    Double opt-in might be more responsive percentage wise, but I bet its not VOLUME wise.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Ambrose
    I use Aweber and I have a number of lists. Some are single and others are double.

    I think there are times where double opt in isn't necessary (such as when you just want to collect their details for a membership site), but generally double is the best way to market products.

    I mean if they don't want to respond to an email asking them to confirm their subscription.. why on earth would they respond to any other emails you send them?

    Daniel
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  • Profile picture of the author trafficwave
    I agree with JazLai regarding the overall quality of your relationship being the primary factor in responsiveness.

    But double opt-in does help protect against malicious subscription possibilities. TrafficWave.net has been using double opt-in for many years and my lists grow quite nicely.

    I've never had a complaint regarding the use of double opt-in but we sure used to get a lot of spam complaints back in the day of single opt-in.
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    Brian Rooney
    TrafficWave.net Email Marketing AutoResponders
    Email Marketing Blog

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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Sol
    Only double... for the legal issues
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    Alex Sol, Full time online marketer since 2007
    The Extra Paycheck Blog | Extra Paycheck Podcast
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