Tired of being on the other side I want IN.

by mhaze 29 replies
Enough is enough I have been in this arena for 9 years gone broke using my 401k buying system after system, traffic plr mrr ppc solos done it all not making a cent. so homeless in 20012 I started my own brick and mortar handyman service which is still my only means of income. I got back in the internet seat and walked through $1000 with lots of fake clicks on fiverr 6000 in one day and no conversions and now that i'm broke again I have no one to turn to but the warrior form for help and I'm not buying anything until I can get my life back and the grand I borrowed. Thanks MJH
#main internet marketing discussion forum #side #tired
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    I started my own brick and mortar handyman service which is still my only means of income. I got back in the internet seat
    Why? Why go back to the internet and blow another $1k? A brick and mortar handyman service can be a decent source of income - why keep 'blowing' money trying to buy success online?

    That's a question you need to answer before you do anything else. You've been a member here for years - no participation. You've spent and spent - no success. Why is this time any different?

    Do you have domain and hosting - autoresponder, etc? Have you built a site or blog? IM isn't for everyone - if you want to be 'on the other side' you have to be willing to go through the muck to get there. That's not buying every shiny object someone wants to sell you - it's doing the work, learning what you need to know and plugging at it day after day to build it up.
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    Saving one dog may not change the world - but forever changes the world of one dog.

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    • Profile picture of the author mhaze
      understood I manually work to afford whats needed online, you sound just like the nay-sayer that talked me into quiting believe me i would have stayed all last night findings ways to put together a site covering the handyman world, I just want to get help putting it together without buy someones course. I have my plan on paper but now is how to put it on the net
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      • Profile picture of the author Steve B
        Originally Posted by mhaze View Post

        . . . you sound just like the nay-sayer that talked me into quiting

        mhaze,

        Two initial steps that may help you.

        First, understand that you are where you are because of the past decisions that you have made. It's the same for everyone. Own up to it and take responsibility for everything you do. Referring to what you said above, no one talks you into anything - you made the choice and no one else. The great thing is, consequences are not always permanent and you can turn things around . . . but you must no blame others, or bad mentors, or poor courses for your failures - you chose them, paid for them, and live with the results.

        Second, spend some time on this forum but no money whatsoever just yet. You need to lay out a workable plan, get rid of your baggage (anything that doesn't move your forward toward profit in your new plan), spend some time researching the marketplace of your choice, and learn (probably in baby steps) what you must do to set up a profitable web site, autoresponder, squeeze page, and all the rest. There are free resources here to help you.

        From there, you will begin to find ways to satisfy demand in the marketplace (the needs of your audience). But that can come after you complete the first two steps above.

        Wishing you well,

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Mattsaas
    Buying traffic or clicks on Fiverr will never convert, so don't do that again

    If your lacking money, use your own sweat to get traffic. This means pumping out lots of content to get free organic traffic.
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  • Profile picture of the author mhaze
    ...You know Guys as I set here aching for laying 1000 ft of joint compound i'm tired of that type of work. I'd rather work online I know these things I did in 2008 my reasons are what it is and I know theres money out there because I'm proof I paid out. yes I have a blogs autoresponers, domains,, content, how to article fb pages, mailing list key word marketing what am I missing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    You are missing....a plan.

    Decide what you want to do - affiliate sales, creating products, drop shipping, CPA or....? Then learn how to get started doing that one thing...

    You might start with the e-commerce section here to get some ideas - read enough to know who to listen to....then look up previous posts by those people and read them.

    Do not buy anything for now...no matter how temping it seems.
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    Saving one dog may not change the world - but forever changes the world of one dog.

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    • Profile picture of the author mhaze
      only thing, I was buying these things through coaching to put my idea on the net.
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      • Profile picture of the author KBrown
        Bro ..
        decide what your site is going to be about.
        join forums of that subject, make a list of what
        people are complaining about. When you narrow down
        to that complaint or problem you want to solve you name your site that. put an ebook
        together about solving that problem. put it on your site hook it up to a
        payment button. your site at this point is just a big
        landing page about your ebook that solves the problem.
        go back to the forums and talk with people. in your signature
        box your going to have a your link to your site. your going to
        be in that forum and others that are like it everyday. your going to be
        interactive with everyone in the place. (traffic) when you set up your
        email responders you going to remind them about your ebook with a link back to your
        site for at least for a week. everyday day send two emails (one in the am one in the pm)with your name and product. then after that week you can start sending info
        and links to other products that match(affiliate marketing) or a new ebook you wrote solving another problem that is close to your first one. if you are in these forums for a week and your talking with people and writing down the problems you come across you will come up with another problem to solve. by this time you will be able to tell others how to do what your doing and that is making money online. here is a plan and now go do it. if you are stuck google it google knows almost everything. then come back here and ask. also come back and tell us how it went. good luck. brother!
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  • Profile picture of the author shmol
    Pick one thing and then stick to it.

    Jumping from one thing to another is not going to get you anywhere.

    Also, do not worry about buying traffic, you can do fine with free traffic.

    Yes, I realize that it takes time, but, it still works.

    Hope this helps
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  • Profile picture of the author RefuseToLose
    Ok let's get brutally honest here.

    The internet is a lot different from the time you started. Long gone are the days of easy money with 'systems' and 'creating a blog' to make money...

    You need traffic. Traffic is king and it always has been.

    There's generally 3 ways you can get quality traffic right now:

    1. You pay for it. That's what all the big companies who've cornered all the traffic on the internet want you to do.

    2. Or you can do 'internet manual labor'. Which includes SEO, Social Media, Video Creation, Content creation and hope search engines like google reward you with keyword rankings and some traffic. The problem with this process is it can take months to see any meaningful results, if you see any at all.

    3. Blackhat Traffic. Which means you do stuff like spamming or using tools to generate traffic to your website.

    The problem today is every major website / company / search engine has been spending the last 9 years+ trying figure out how to keep their customers on their sites and stop cheapskates from taking advantage of all those users they have. So options 2 and 3 are especially hard nowadays and honestly unless you're some kind of hidden SEO/Marketing god, then odds are you will probably fail at trying to create some amazing 'blog/article website/viral site/niche site'.

    I'm not saying its impossible to find success in these areas, but the odds of you succeeding doing that stuff with no money is very very low. There are tens of thousands out there right now spending thousands a month doing SEO for small niche websites. The odds that you can come along with your little 'niche' website and compete is setting yourself up for failure.

    If you want the best shot at quitting your job and doing internet marketing full time, you need a budget, you need a plan, and you need some skills.

    If I were you, I'd stick to your day job, save up around $5,000. In that time start learning about copywriting, marketing, and facebook advertising. Then find yourself a good product to dedicate yourself to selling. Start split testing your sales funnel until you're profitable. That's how I went from $100 a day doing internet manual labor to over $10,000 in sales a day just off one product.

    Paid traffic is kind. If you want any chance at making it online, you need to master it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    why are you here
    Sometimes I wonder....
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    Saving one dog may not change the world - but forever changes the world of one dog.

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  • Profile picture of the author DWolfe
    Since you are good at laying Joint Compound try putting a video together and sell it it to people to make money online. Also see if you can open your own side business teaching people how to lay Joint Compound. Sounds like you got Shiney Object syndrome, it is easy to do and you are not the first one to lose a lot of money doing it. Take a step back and focus on building 1 thing at a time. Put the credit card and paypal account a side and start over. With all the threads just in the free sections of the forum you should be able to make some money.

    If you need some help visit the Learn section of the forum or if you need ideas what to do. Read the Desperate thread buy Paul Myers.https://www.warriorforum.com/main-in...desperate.html

    There's a lot of tough love in this thread, no one is putting you down. Sometimes the truth stings a little. but take some of the advice from others they are trying to help.

    Good luck .
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Stop buying "systems" for crying out loud - they're notorious for the omission of needed information. Many product creators assume their customers have the same underlying knowledge and skills they do, or they just don't realize how far the gap is between what they know and what you know, so little bits and pieces get left out and the system doesn't work.

    You don't have to go broke or even spend a lot to earn money online. I was earning a full-time living online before I'd even heard of "Internet marketing." The only money I spent was for a domain name and hosting for the first couple of years. When I started spending more it was for the tools I needed, such as an autoresponder, or to have 500 copies of a CD printed; or for books or courses that taught me specific skills I wanted to develop. Mostly though, I just taught myself through experimentation, trial and error, and being creative.

    You can do the same thing. Take your time. Make a plan. Build a business. It won't happen overnight, but it will happen if you take it one day at a time and keep plugging away. You've already learned a lot, probably more than you give yourself credit for. Use that knowledge as a learning bridge to your future success.

    The secret to your success ... is your mind.
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Stop buying "systems" for crying out loud - they're notorious for the omission of needed information. Many product creators assume their customers have the same underlying knowledge and skills they do, or they just don't realize how far the gap is between what they know and what you know, so little bits and pieces get left out and the system doesn't work.

      You don't have to go broke or even spend a lot to earn money online. I was earning a full-time living online before I'd even heard of "Internet marketing." The only money I spent was for a domain name and hosting for the first couple of years. When I started spending more it was for the tools I needed, such as an autoresponder, or to have 500 copies of a CD printed; or for books or courses that taught me specific skills I wanted to develop. Mostly though, I just taught myself through experimentation, trial and error, and being creative.

      You can do the same thing. Take your time. Make a plan. Build a business. It won't happen overnight, but it will happen if you take it one day at a time and keep plugging away. You've already learned a lot, probably more than you give yourself credit for. Use that knowledge as a learning bridge to your future success.

      The secret to your success ... is your mind.
      I wish you would come here more often to share...good to see ya
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    • Profile picture of the author anayb
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      I was earning a full-time living online before I'd even heard of "Internet marketing."
      Same here. I bought even an SUV with the money I earned. In my case, I have had to sold my services by bidding my time; not a good ideal lol .
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by anayb View Post

        Same here. I bought even an SUV with the money I earned. In my case, I have had to sold my services by bidding my time; not a good ideal lol .
        It's not a bad idea, it's just not very scalable unless you want to oversee an outsourcing operation. You earned enough to buy an SUV so you're doing something right. It's up to you where you go from there.
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        Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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  • Profile picture of the author mhaze
    Very well appreciated
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  • Profile picture of the author savidge4
    Mr. Haze,

    I looked at your sites.. you know what they look good and all.. the content is decent ish.. but there is a disconnect... read what you have said on this thread, and then go back and read what you have written on those websites.

    Start with being honest.. its sounds like you are already honest with yourself.. now you need to be honest with those you are trying to connect with.

    Your story is the same as many other folks.... I bought this I did this.. none of it worked HELP!

    Start a NEW Journey.. and HONEST journey, and guide yourself, and what will be your followers on a path of discovery and growth.

    I would suggest your target audience is all of those poor saps in the trades that bust their tail day in and day out... that feel the pain, and KNOW that they cant keep this up. You are one of them.. so start speaking to them..

    Start writing about the process.. how YOU built your first site.. what you have learned.. what you have done different over time. Introduce them to autosponders.. and mail chimp and whatever else.. lay out the process - Use construction analogies.. but most importantly BE HONEST

    Using a construction analogy.. right now you are that guy that walks on the job and asks to speak to the boss tells him he has 10 yrs experience in dry wall blah blah and the next day shows up for his first day of work with a hand cross cut saw, a Philips screwdriver a roll of duct tape and heads towards the back door asking where the pile of dirt is so he can make some mud.

    Instead you should be that guy that says hey.. ive been trying this for 9 years now, I have spent more money than I am willing to admit to try and learn all this stuff. All this stuff promising this and that and the other... I'm a simply dry wall guy.. if I can do it we can do it together!

    I truly hope that Helps!
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    • Profile picture of the author pawandave
      Who told you to buy traffic from Fiverr....how did you believe that fiverr traffic make you fortune.. you lost because of your fault...

      You don't need to buy anything. There are too much free information in this forum. Read a lot then decide what you want to do and focus on that till it start working...

      REMEMBER.....NEVER GIVE UP...search on Google, youtube ..read and apply...and you will crack the code. I have 3 working system and i got all same way...

      Another fast way to HIRE some guy having good feedback with 1-To-1 coaching. It will fast...but no problem if you decided not to buy...its completely ok...just go ahead...develop fighter attitude.
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  • Profile picture of the author mhaze
    ...Wow I really love this feedback thanks everyone.
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  • Profile picture of the author nicheblogger75
    I can tell you one problem you're having right off the bat, and that's buying traffic from Fiverr.

    Some people will disagree with me, and that's cool, but I love solo ads.

    When you know how to do it right it's incredibly lucrative.

    Now, another problem I see is that you wasted a ton of money buying "system after system." In order for a "system" to work, essentially you need two things. A system that is valid and actually works, and the person operating the system to put the work in.

    Personally, I don't put much stock in other people's "systems." Now I've reviewed hundreds (maybe thousands) of products in what people refer to as the "IM" arena (which is actually the "make money online/biz opp" niche). The majority of them aren't really systems in the technical sense of the word. They're more like "methods." There's a HUGE difference. A "system" is something you put into place and then continually repeat the steps needed to run it. Nothing should change with a real system. A method is the way in which you go about achieving an end goal. That's putting it in simple terms. The point I'm trying to make is that in the IM world, there are no real "systems" because everything is constantly changing and you need to make adjustments and tweaks to your business along with those changes.

    I'm not going to tell you that you shouldn't try to succeed with IM if that's what you really want. I would simply advise you to do your own research, make TINY investments in different methods to test them out, and stop buying all of these products.

    I also think you are suffering from what we in the IM business call "information overload." You keep taking in information that you can't possibly process in an entire lifetime, and this leads you into a vicious "stop and start" cycle, meaning you never give one particular method a chance to work before you move on to the next one.

    My advice is this:

    You need to build a list. Keep it simple. If you are into the "make money online" niche that's fine, just understand it's an incredibly competitive niche and it's loaded with shady characters and bad actors. It also runs heavily on creating and/or promoting products that teach others how to make money online. You can see how this is a problem if you haven't actually been successful at making money online yourself. The solution, IMO, is to start out in a different niche. I'm not going to use the cliche that it should be "something you are passionate about." First and foremost, it should be a niche that's profitable. If, by chance, there is a niche that you love and are already knowledgeable about, then great.

    You don't need to be an expert in a niche to break into it, but you DO have to provide truthful, helpful information that provides value to others.

    So how can you do this without putting out a large initial investment? Simple. Start a blog. Don't use a free platform. It only costs around $25 to get yourself a domain name and beginner hosting package. Once you do that, the only other thing you need is an aitoresponder account to build your list. I recommend Aweber because they have a deal where it's only $1 for your first month. Another choice, if you are in a suitable niche, is MailChimp. I believe they offer a free package up to 500 subscribers. MailChimp is NOT a good choice for the "mmo/biz opp" niche, nor is it a good choice if you plan on promoting a lot of digital products as an affiliate via direct linking to the sales page.

    So, once you have those 3 things, set up WordPress on your domain. Most hosting accounts allow for this to be done with a couple of clicks using Fantastico or QuickInstaller. Even if your hosting company doesn't have these, it's easy enough to do a self install. There are plenty of videos on YouTube that can walk you through it.

    Once you've done this, set up your list and put opt-in forms all over your blog. Personally, I have them in 4 places on my blogs- at the top of the sidebar, in the footer, below each post, and one that pops up upon a visitor exiting the site.

    Now you're ready to start producing content. This is the hard part. You'll need to learn how to write if you don't know how. You'll need to learn on-page SEO as well, and you'll need to learn how to integrate your blog with social media. The good news is that YouTube is LOADED with FREE videos that will teach you many different ways to go about achieving your goals. As far as on-page SEO, you can install a free plugin called Yoast SEO that will basically show you how to optimize your posts for search engines.

    Once you produce a quality piece of content, then it becomes all about getting your content "out there." This is where social media can play an integral part in getting your blog exposure.

    When it comes to writing, do yourself a favor and write for PEOPLE and not for GOOGLE. If you produce quality unique content that people like, backlinks and social shares will come naturally, and in turn, Google and Bing will recognize your work and rank it accordingly.

    Some guidelines I try and use when I produce a post:

    1. 1000 -1500 words. Don't make it too short, but don't make it too long, either.

    2. Use images to get your point across. I try and use at least two images per post. Sometimes I only use one, but you should always try and have at least two. Original images that you create are best, but if you can't do that, you can buy royalty free images or use images that fall under public domain or creative commons. NEVER just "borrow" an image you find on Google or another search engine or website, that is, unless you like to get sued.

    3. Put at least one video in each post. It doesn't have to be your own, although it's better if it is. Same rules apply to video as images. Most videos on sites like YouTube, DailyMotion and Vimeo are OK to use. As long as an embed code is available, you shouldn't have to worry.

    4. Include a way for people to download your post if they wish. You can make a PDF of your post and let people download it. You can turn your post into a video or podcast, etc. This is one I need to work on myself, as I don't follow my own advice on this one.

    5. Make sure you have ample ways for visitors to "share," "like," and "tweet" your posts. Encourage them to do so, and encourage them to comment. I believe there are plugins available that actually reward visitors with a free gift for sharing or commenting. You can look into that.

    That's basically it. I would try and post 2-3 times per week if you can. The more you post, the more exposure you are going to get. That said, you should never compromise quality to achieve quantity.

    Personally, I LOVE blogging, but I simply don't have time to do it. I wish I could post every day, but I'm a "one man show," and so I just don't have enough time.

    I hope someday the same will go for you. That will mean that you have a successful online business!

    Good luck to you no matter what you decide to do.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    Oh boy...

    ...

    ...Let's start with one big concept: no system is "plug-and-play." None. Even if the expert is amazing at it, and knows all about it, and gives you every step-by-step instruction...you will have to figure some of it out yourself to make it work for you.

    The system is a map. The expert gave you a map. The map is not the territory.

    The map tells you, "There's a swamp." But it does not walk you through the swamp. YOU have to walk you through the swamp...and in there, you'll find leeches and mud and quicksand...and have to figure out how to deal with those things yourself.

    No one can walk the territory for you.

    Now the second thing I want to share:

    It looks like you have been trying to grab random traffic. And sending those people to what? An opt-in? A sales page? And how is the match-up between traffic and the offer? Are they way off? Do you have any idea?

    My guess is probably not. You can't just scoop your ladle into a random, low cost stream of traffic, and expect it to be chicken noodle soup. It's probably sewer water. That has to be filtered, purified, filtered again, boiled, and have stock and goodies added to it to become something tasty. In IM terms, you need to QUALIFY that traffic and let only qualified prospects see your offer.

    IMers are throwing traffic at the wall and hoping something sticks. Foolish. Bad for statistics. Energy-draining.

    What PROBLEM do you want to solve?

    WHO admits to having this problem?

    WHERE can you find them?

    HOW can you get them interested in learning more about either the true nature of the problem or the solution?

    That's Internet Marketing. And it's Marketing in general.

    Not "I grab some random traffic and then wonder why it doesn't convert with some equally random offer."

    This does not have to be complicated. My first funnel was pre-qualified forum traffic going to a simple sales page. They knew they had the problem. They knew I had the solution. And the solution was attractively priced.

    What I do not see in the OP is an understanding of traffic and conversion as two separate steps. It looks to me like he's been trying, like so many others, to mash them into a single step. That road leads to failure.

    I want to see a TARGET MARKET.

    I want to see an ADMITTED, SERIOUS PROBLEM.

    I want to see a SOLUTION.

    And I want to see it packaged as an OFFER.

    I don't see any of that so far.

    OP, when Kay talks about you needing a plan, my educated guess is this is what she's getting at.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Brindamour
    MJH, sorry to hear you have been through so many struggles. If you talk to any of the leaders out there they have been through similar struggles.

    There are 3 things that you need to be successful on-line:

    1. A solid proven product: If you don't have your own product there are many affiliate programs out there, the hard part is finding the right one! A few things to look for: a. Find something that people want and are willing to pay for. b. Find something that is popular (i.e. lots of people are promoting it). c. Find something that people are making money with. d. the leadership is transparent

    2. System to promote the product: You will want to have your own funnel (landing page, bridge page and video sales letter) to promote the product so you can position yourself different from the rest pack out there.

    3. Good & consistent traffic: There is tons of traffic out there, this is not the problem. The problem is finding good traffic with people that are interested and have the money to buy your product. Some of the highest converting traffic is "warm traffic" from social media sites such as Facebook, Instagram and YouTube, however these can often be difficult and time consuming for a new marketer to start generating enough traffic from. When trying a new traffic source you want to test it and have tracking in place to assure you are getting what you paid for and if it is actually converting. You want traffic from "Top Tier" countries only: USA, Canada, United Kingdom and Australia. Once you have tested a new source and it converting well (you are getting opt-ins and sales) then scale up. You want to be able to get 50-100 lead per day to your offer in order to get results.

    P.S. You also want to make sure you are branding you, not the company or product you are promoting, and that you are capturing email addresses for all of your leads!

    Hope this helps!
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  • Profile picture of the author sohanislam
    Since you are good at laying Joint Compound try putting a video together and sell it it to people to make money online. Also see if you can open your own side business teaching people how to lay Joint Compound. Sounds like you got Shiney Object syndrome, it is easy to do and you are not the first one to lose a lot of money doing it. Take a step back and focus on building 1 thing at a time. Put the credit card and paypal account a side and start over. With all the threads just in the free sections of the forum you should be able to make some money.
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  • Profile picture of the author ryanbiddulph
    I know times are tough MJH, but owning that you are online for the wrong reason - to get - will be enlightening. Because then you will get an offline job, make money, so your getting will be taken care of. Then you can hop online to have fun, to learn IM, to create helpful content, to build connections by promoting top marketers, and since you will be giving persistently, daily, for months and years, you will see money flow in over the long haul.

    Ryan
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  • Profile picture of the author cjshu99
    sounds like the definition of insanity, doing the same things and expecting different results.

    The simplest, but still not easiest, way Ive found is ecommerce using ebay and/or amazon. They have built in traffic that you pay them in fees to use. Going to yard sales, finding discounts online, using retail arbitrage are all ways to find products. Takes time and practice.
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  • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
    MJH, there's something I've noticed in my 20+ years online.

    [If you sell 'systems' to newbies, you may want to skip down a few paragraphs.]

    'Business In a Box" and "paint by numbers" systems targeted to dreamers and naive newbies tend to resemble a commercial dairy operation.

    The cows are milked until they have nothing left to give, and reach an age where they can no longer contribute to the herd.

    They are then culled, and sold off for whatever value they might still have.

    Many system sellers follow the same model - when their system stops making money from working the system, they package it and sell the package for whatever value is left. You, MJH, likely bought some worn out milkers along the way.

    [Okay, sellers, you can come back now.]

    MJH, you have a valuable asset. You have a skill that you exercise well enough to support yourself. It's also a skill (more likely a set of skills) that would be very desirable to DIYers, wannabe property flippers, etc.

    Here's a simple plan to get you started.

    1. Pick one skill/task that you can easily explain. Say, replacing tile in a bathroom.

    2. Speak to some local realtors to get a feel for how much value redoing the tile in a bathroom adds.

    3. Set up your simple website offering how-to information, including the kind of pro tricks and tips someone who makes a living as a handyman would know. Start with two short information products. For example, "How to Add $5k to Your Home Value in a Weekend by Updating Your Bathroom Tile" and "How to Choose Tile and Related Material and Get the Best Deal Like a Pro". Charge ~$10 each.

    4. Set up two simple autoresponder series, one for buyers of each product. When someone buys Product 1, the email series offers them Product 2, and vice versa.

    5. As your list grows, start asking them what other information they need but haven't found a good source for. Start adding more simple products to your catalog, two at a time.

    6. Rinse and repeat.

    It isn't glamorous, but it speaks to the ways to make money. Sell stuff to more people, sell more stuff to those people, and sell them more often.

    It doesn't have to be complicated to be very profitable, despite what some gooroos might tell you.
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  • Profile picture of the author pheonix44
    It seems to me the issue is buying into the notion that spending money automatically means a higher chance of making money. Understand that in this game certain things you mentioned in your post such as purchasing clicks can be manipulated. Before you invest any serious money the goal has to be determining in what ways can a certain source of traffic be manipulated. You also need to decide why someone would be selling a system if it is indeed profitable. Ask yourself common sense questions. There are people (I was one of them) who purchased make money systems for the entertainment value of them, never really putting any of them into action.

    The heart and soul of this entire game is selling something of value to people who want to buy. Selling something where the buyer feels like the money they give you is worth less than what they get in return. True targeted traffic, the kind that can't be faked takes time and patience. It can be done. You might want to even consider going some conventional routes like offline magazines. I feel your pain in terms of what you're talking about though. There's manipulation all over the place and if you don't know how to vet certain things you can't be sure what you're buying.
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