only 206 subscribers and already 15 SPAM complaints...

67 replies
Hello everyone.

I was wondering your thoughts no what is an acceptable number of SPAM complains per subscriber ratio, and some ways to reduce it.

One of my newer lists has been getting me worried.

I only have 206 subscribers and have already gotten 15 complaints. I really haven't been doing anything out of the ordinary besides for switching to single opt-in.

Here is my scheduling: day 0,1,3,5,7,9,12,15,18,21,24,27,30,34,38,42,46,50,54 ,58,61,65,69,73

Could it be that I am emailing them too often in the beginning?

I have been fairly lax with my promotions - one decent tip with each email and promo of only one single product(in each email) throughout my entire newsletter series.

Am I getting worked up over nothing, or is 7% complaint rate something I should concerned about?
#206 #complaints #spam #subscribers
  • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
    What's your general niche, Daniel?
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    Not promoting right now

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  • Profile picture of the author fmn999
    Looks like it might be too many messages. You might want to extend the days between messages also
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    • Profile picture of the author theimdude
      Why did you switch to single optin. Pending on what you offer to signup I will also complain of I get that many messages in a single optin.

      I just checked and if you are talking about you free ebook on the page in your sig then change it to double optin as that is not a optin and can be classified spam.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Brock
    This particular opt-in is for a new health niche I am working in.

    I have been reading a lot that double opt in reduces subscriptions. I used to use D-opt in for awhile, but noticed that 40% of my subscribers never confirmed it.

    I don't think these are fake subscribers or people putting in someone elses email because this the traffic is straight up PPC traffic - so the person is definitely interested in the topic or else why would they search it to begin with.

    Maybe I will just have to live with it considering all these complaints so far...

    Perhaps my mailing is to frequent like suggested?
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
    Sometimes people report spam because they simply don't remember who the heck they are getting email from.

    Here are some ideas to help, and yes, I've violated them all so don't kill me.

    1. Have a consistent return address (from) . Don't use "Magic Marketing" one time and "Joe Blow" another time.

    2. Put a header above your messages. Something like " You are getting this message because you are on my list... yada yada" For a good example subscribe to Steven Wagenheims list.

    3. Offer pure golden content before you pitch something,either in the same email or above the pitch.

    4. Try not to sound spammy (whatever that means) in your pitches. No !!!!!!! all over the place,,, no $$$$$ or wow wow !!

    5. If using an affiliate product, don't copy and mail the boiler plate email they have created unless by agreement you must. All they need to do is get another duplicate from someone else and they think its spam.

    6. Make sure your html email is readable and doesn't come out as junk. Test before you mail.

    7. Test before you mail. Test before you mail, no matter what. You'll catch those [firstname] errors, bad spelling, cut off lines, etc.

    8. When people sign up, let them know the frequency. If you send often, offer them a less often option on another list, or a digest.
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  • Profile picture of the author vagabondette
    that seems like a lot of messages. particularly if you're promoting a product in each one. I'd cry spam too. Try cutting down on both the number of messages and the number of promos. You want people to think they're getting something of value not just being pumped to buy something every other day.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
    Are you wandering off topic?

    Look at your opt-in text. Do your emails give your subscribers the info you promised them?

    Really?

    Don't change your email content, or your frequency. Change your opt-in message.

    My guess: You'd have gotten 191 subscribers and no spam complaints if you did that from the start.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Brock
    Thanks for the tips everyone. I am going to knock out some of my promos and spread out my email frequency a tad.

    I appreciate everyone's input!
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  • Profile picture of the author ppcpimp
    7% is way too high. It has to be the content or perception of your emails. You could email your list 2x/day if you were giving them something they wanted or didn't feel was spammy. Obviously that might be an over statement but hopefully you catch the meaning. I would go back and re-examine the content and/or layout of your mail.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by ppcpimp View Post

      7% is way too high. It has to be the content or perception of your emails. You could email your list 2x/day if you were giving them something they wanted or didn't feel was spammy. Obviously that might be an over statement but hopefully you catch the meaning. I would go back and re-examine the content and/or layout of your mail.
      If I got 2 messages a day from anyone, I would ban it to my spam folder without hesitation. I think the OP is emailing too frequently. In addition, if this is supposed to be a newsletter, put more tips in it ... more news. Try sending some with just news and tips.

      One tip and one promo sounds a great deal like spam to me.
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      • Profile picture of the author vagabondette
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        If I got 2 messages a day from anyone, I would ban it to my spam folder without hesitation. I think the OP is emailing too frequently. In addition, if this is supposed to be a newsletter, put more tips in it ... more news. Try sending some with just news and tips.

        One tip and one promo sounds a great deal like spam to me.
        I agree. anyone who shows up in my in-box more than once a day is spamming, no ifs, ands or buts about it. And, if they send a promo more than once or twice a week they're spamming. This is why I've been unsubscribing like crazy from lists lately. People preach quality over quantity for article marketing - well the same applies to email marketing.

        I'd be interested in knowing what the open rates are for those who are emailing multiple times a day and if they've run split tests to see where the number are for only single emails.
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        • Profile picture of the author bobsstuff
          A possible answer to SPAM complaints is that people do not know they are signing up for a newsletter.

          I often sign up to a free IM report. A lot of the times there is no indication on the sign up form that I will get a free report BUT I will also be put on a mailing list.

          Because I am involved in IM, I know I am subscribing to newsletter. People getting a free health report might not know you will continue to email them after they get the report.
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Bob nailed it. There's nothing on that page telling anyone they're signing up for anything. Bang. You're spamming.

            As for the people who says, "If I sign up and then XYZ, it's spamming" - go away. You're clueless, and dangerous to rational people.


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author vagabondette
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              Bob nailed it. There's nothing on that page telling anyone they're signing up for anything. Bang. You're spamming.

              As for the people who says, "If I sign up and then XYZ, it's spamming" - go away. You're clueless, and dangerous to rational people.


              Paul
              I'm clueless, dangerous and irrational because I don't want to receive 5 emails a day promoting random crap that everyone else in the world is promoting? Really?

              Just because I'm interested in x doesn't mean I want to hear about it and every product even remotely related to it (and many that aren't) multiple times a day.

              I once signed up for a newsletter and the content was great. I got an email every other day with great information and relevant product info a couple times a week. Then the guy went off the deep end. I started getting 2-3 emails a day, each with a product pitch and very little useful information. One day he sent *11 product pitches*.

              Are you really saying that just because I signed up to receive a newsletter I shoudn't consider being pitched to 11 separate times in a single day to be spam?

              Sorry but IMO that's the clueless, dangerous and irrational view.

              If you're providing value, you can email me until the cows come home but in my experience, no one who is sending mutiple emails each day with multiple pitches is adding any value to anything other than their bottom line.
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            • Profile picture of the author SantiSantana
              I hope my following suggestion has not been made yet, i read the first few responses but the thread seemed a bit long for my mood (just woke up), but I have an idea that might work for you.

              One of the lists I'm subscribed to does the following: rather than send me the email with the content plus the promo stuff, they send me a notification that a new post has been added to her blog about topic XXX, followed by a link that takes me straight to that post.

              Being her website, she oviously has it optimized already with all the promo stuff and everything else.

              Another list I'm in, by Tim Lowe, has a reminder that let's me know I'm receiving the mails because I subscribed to his list on xx/xx/xx. I suppose there is a script grabing the dates for each receiver.

              A combination of both approaches might allow you to keep the single opt-in and reduce, or even eliminate spam complaints.

              Hope it helps
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                I'm clueless, dangerous and irrational because I don't want to receive 5 emails a day promoting random crap that everyone else in the world is promoting? Really?
                Nope. You're clueless and dangerous because you call it spam, which encourages others to think the same way. That gets into all sorts of nasty stuff that's dangerous to every single sender of legitimate bulk email.

                It may be annoying, but the correct option is to unsubscribe, not treat mail you signed up for as spam.


                Paul
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                • Profile picture of the author vagabondette
                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                  Nope. You're clueless and dangerous because you call it spam, which encourages others to think the same way. That gets into all sorts of nasty stuff that's dangerous to every single sender of legitimate bulk email.

                  It may be annoying, but the correct option is to unsubscribe, not treat mail you signed up for as spam.


                  Paul
                  I do unsubscribe. I've only hit the spam button once and that was because when I unsubscribed they didn't remove me from the list.

                  However, I still consider those emails to be spam. I signed up to receive a helpful newsletter not every info product pitch under the sun.

                  If you tell your list members when they sign up that they're going to receive great, helpful info daily and then send a one line tip followed by an 8 paragraph product pitch then IMO it's spam because you're not giving what you said you were going to give. However, if you make it clear that you're going to be sending them information about products you think they'll be interested in then it's not a problem.

                  It comes back to what others mentioned: make sure your members know what they're going to get and how often they'll get it before they sign up. As long as you're clear and you stick to that it shouldn't be a problem. But calling something a newsletter when it's 1% news and 99% pitch is misrepresentation at best.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    I do unsubscribe. I've only hit the spam button once and that was because when I unsubscribed they didn't remove me from the list.
                    In that case, the emails following a failed unsubscribe are spam, or (in the rare case where it's a technical glitch) should be treated like it.
                    However, I still consider those emails to be spam. I signed up to receive a helpful newsletter not every info product pitch under the sun.
                    If the list's topics were misrepresented, there's a valid argument to be made that they're spam. If they simply weren't spelled out, that's on you for signing up.

                    The objection to your first post, and from others in this thread, is calling mail from a list you signed up for "spam," without qualifying the statement. That encourages people to hit the spam button any time they see something that isn't exactly what they want, or read something with which they disagree.

                    That's dangerous.


                    Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        If I got 2 messages a day from anyone, I would ban it to my spam folder without hesitation. I think the OP is emailing too frequently. In addition, if this is supposed to be a newsletter, put more tips in it ... more news. Try sending some with just news and tips.

        One tip and one promo sounds a great deal like spam to me.
        Ok i have seen this a couple of times in this thread, but i'm sorry suzzanne you were the straw that broke the camels back

        ITS NOT SPAM YOU SUBSCRIBED AND AGREED TO HAVING EMIAL SENT TO YOU

        Sure fine if you dont like the way or what they send, or the frequency unsubscribe, but marking it as spam is just plain wrong
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  • Profile picture of the author Charann Miller
    7% is significant enough to notice and unless it was information I absolutely wanted and was pertinent to what I needed at the time, I would probably get a little irritated if I was emailed every couple of days especially if it was primarily promotional stuff.

    But yip, basically what's been said, a nice cocktail of useful info mixed in with promotional and lessen the frequency, instead of going from 2 days apart in the beginning to 4 days keep it to 2 emails per week or every 3 days and keep inline with that regular consistency.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Fladlien
      I guarantee you're not mailing them too much - I sometimes mail certain lists three times a day and I have a tiny, tiny amount of spam complaints. And that's with single optin.

      It all starts with how they're getting on your list. If you don't mind sharing, show us your squeeze page. My guess is this is where the problem lies.

      -Jason
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      • Profile picture of the author jhongren
        Originally Posted by Jason Fladlien View Post

        I guarantee you're not mailing them too much - I sometimes mail certain lists three times a day and I have a tiny, tiny amount of spam complaints. And that's with single optin.

        It all starts with how they're getting on your list. If you don't mind sharing, show us your squeeze page. My guess is this is where the problem lies.

        -Jason
        Adding to what Jason has said,
        I sometimes mail my list around 3 times
        a day.

        It really depends on the messages you
        have for them.

        Are they of high value?
        Are the emails what they want?
        Are the emails making a difference to their lives?

        So if u can show us your squeeze page, we
        are here to help.

        John
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        • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
          Single opt-in?

          You're just asking for trouble. You get a lot of crappy subscribers and you don't have a leg to stand on when you get spam complaints.

          All my lists are double opt-in, and I rarely get spam complaints. When I do, it's some lost soul and counts for 1 complaint per a few thousand subscribers.
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          • Profile picture of the author Vaan
            Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

            Single opt-in?

            You're just asking for trouble. You get a lot of crappy subscribers and you don't have a leg to stand on when you get spam complaints.

            All my lists are double opt-in, and I rarely get spam complaints. When I do, it's some lost soul and counts for 1 complaint per a few thousand subscribers.
            Hi kevin,

            If they are double optin, but they use their alternate email, what's your opinions??

            It's because everyone is smart that they have alternate email for optin to something,

            Maybe any other way to solve that's issue?

            Regards,
            vaan
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          • Profile picture of the author Christian Sawyer
            Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

            Single opt-in?

            You're just asking for trouble. You get a lot of crappy subscribers and you don't have a leg to stand on when you get spam complaints.

            All my lists are double opt-in, and I rarely get spam complaints. When I do, it's some lost soul and counts for 1 complaint per a few thousand subscribers.
            Normally I would agree with you Kevin, but this is completely false.

            Sometimes single opt-in is the way to go, and it is dependent on the niche itself and the mindset of your subscribers.

            -Christian
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  • Profile picture of the author KristiDaniels
    I have never ever had a problem sending too often.

    My unsubscribe rate sometimes increases, but my spam complaint rate always decreases when I increase the frequency.

    I always send every day to every list because of that.

    Think of it the other way around. Have you ever abandoned a list for awhile to focus on something else and then noticed it months later with more subscribers than you thought?

    I have. I bet you have too. What do we always do? We try to revive it by sending something new to them. What always happens? We get a lot of spam complaints.

    The same thing happens when we only send monthly. They forget about us and assume we are strangers sending spam. So they hit the spam button. That happens less often if you send weekly. It happens even less often when you send every other day. It hardly ever happens if the reader sees an email from you every single day.

    That is the next thing I would make sure I am doing. Make sure every email is consistent in a few ways. Make sure the from name is the same. Make sure your headlines are consistent. Do you always capitalize the first letter of each word? Don't change that for one or two emails or you will get the spam button pushed.

    Do you always use 3 or 4 words on the subject line? Guess what happens when you use 7 or 8 words one day? Spam complaints increase.

    Do you always put something at the beginning of the subject line like the list name or your company name in brackets in uppercase? Something like this:

    Subject: [MONEY MAKERS EZINE:] 7 Steps to Increase Sales

    That is good. If you aren't, then consider something like that but shorter and applicable to your market. But once you do it, make sure you stay consistent and always do it. The day you don't, you will receive spam complaints.

    Did you keep your promise? If you promised a 7 part ecourse, then you better keep your promise or you will get spam complaints. If you send them part one and part two and then switch off to a promotion for something else on day 3 then you will get spam complaints on day 3.

    If you promise a video course and you switch to text for one of the lessons, you will get spam complaints.

    After you have kept your promise a lot of people will then switch to something else. After the 7 day ecourse that was promised, you might give a bonus 8th chapter. Then you might give a pdf ebook the next day. Then you might ease into promoting something by video. That is usually fine, but you may have a slightly elevated spam complaint rate on the days right after you switch gears after you kept your promise.

    Finally you might be doing everything right and delivering exactly what you promised and being very consistent letting them know who you are and keeping fresh in their mind by emailing them daily and still get a ton of spam complaints based on the market.

    I have run into that twice. One time the market was work at home moms. I targeted the completely inexperienced for one campaign. These were the WAHMs that are interested in clicking ads and reviewing them for 20 seconds for a penny or filling our surveys for $1/hour. I actually offered them something significantly better than they had already been exposed to.

    I had a huge spam complaint rate of 3 or 4%. I finally contacted a few to find out why they were clicking the spam button. They usually had me confused with another program. They were just mad at the world because they had recently been ripped off several times in my market. It wasn't me. It was just the market.

    Another time was really weird. It wasn't a commercial list. It was a list for people who worked for me as free lancers. I sent daily announcements about new kinds of work I had available that they could bid on. I also had a 2%-3% spam complaint rate. Then they would complain because they weren't receiving the announcements anymore. I talked to a few and figured out that the freelancers who signed up simply received too much mail from all sources. They missed mine even though I put a "[MY NEW PROJECTS: ]" at the beginning of the subject line. I had to quit doing that and make them go to a page on my web-site every day without waiting for an email from me.

    I hope that helps. Set it up for double opt-in. The extra subscribers you are getting with single opt-in are not worth the spam complaints. Be consistent with from and subject lines and even email formats. Make sure you give them exactly what you promised when they signed up. Make sure unsubscribe links are obvious. Make sure you aren't in a trouble market where nothing you do can help. Make sure you email daily or at least every other day so they don't forget who you are.

    I hope that helps.
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  • Profile picture of the author FBisMoney
    Go with double opt-in Daniel. Those who do not confirm are likely not going to buy anything from you anyways and your list quality is going to be significantly better if you use double-opt.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Brock
    Wow good replies! I can only pin point the SPAM complaints due to the single opt-in. I have been using very similar tactics with my other lists(all double opt-in) and get maybe 2 SPAM complaints per 600 subscribers.

    What is it about double opt-in that makes the list more responsive and less receptive to SPAM complaints?

    Is it just that extra step helps burn your name into the prospects mind? They say 'yes' to your email confirmation, so in their minds they have already said 'yes' to the rest of the emails?

    Compared to a single opt in where the person sees your emails and thinks, 'why is this guy sending me this stuff? I already got his free ______'
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    • Profile picture of the author theimdude
      Originally Posted by Daniel Brock View Post

      Wow good replies! I can only pin point the SPAM complaints due to the single opt-in. I have been using very similar tactics with my other lists(all double opt-in) and get maybe 2 SPAM complaints per 600 subscribers.

      What is it about double opt-in that makes the list more responsive and less receptive to SPAM complaints?

      Is it just that extra step helps burn your name into the prospects mind? They say 'yes' to your email confirmation, so in their minds they have already said 'yes' to the rest of the emails?

      Compared to a single opt in where the person sees your emails and thinks, 'why is this guy sending me this stuff? I already got his free ______'

      I am amazed at the amount of people actaully suggesting doing a single optin which is as far as know then become spam. I subscribe to lists a lot and if it is not a double-optin and I get email I will treat is as spam as well.

      Do we have enough problems with spam already so why now trying to encourage it?

      I suppose Daniel when your service provider cancel you hosting as there IP got blacklisted you will understand why double opt-in in the only way to go.
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  • Profile picture of the author Amelia O
    Frankly, I'd stick with the double-optin.

    Was wondering the spam complaints could be due to your single opt-in.

    With the double-optin, make sure to schedule an instant follow-up informing them that they will hear from you soon/again.

    That decreases my subscribers BUT those that opted in are highly targeted and people that are willing to hear from me again.

    Communicate with your list. Never let them have the idea that you are just some robots sending out scheduled mails.

    Hope to hear good news from you.

    Cheers!
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  • Profile picture of the author secretjustin
    How about sending out a helpful insightful email. And in it, ask about the frequency of emails being sent. Or ask for some sort of feedback?

    I don't deal with lists so this may be a bad idea. But it would come off as being more human I would think?
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  • Profile picture of the author Peter Clarke
    I would echo some of the comments above, double opting protects you from some of the more unreasonable individuals who 'change their mind' but chose to complain rather than ask you to remove them.

    Double opt in, with an audit trail and third party verification will help avoid the aweful situation of having your account suspended - and all the business implications this can have. And if they won't double opt in, they are weak customers anyway.
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  • Profile picture of the author mfleisch
    Your number seems really high. In my opinion, SPAM rates should be less than one percent but ideally around .5%. You may want to focus on where you're getting your names from. I find that they have to be VERY niche specific to keep them engages and delivering value.
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  • Profile picture of the author klinvie
    Daniel I would focus on having them double optin but implement a strategy to have them confirm. For example: what if you gave them a gift to confirm the email. something they would have to confirm in order to recive. Just keep in mine that you would have to make the gift have just as much or more value as the reason they subscribed in the first place.

    Hope that help

    klinvie
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  • Profile picture of the author opportunites
    As a marketer, you suscribers need to perceive you as a guide, a leader/expert in your domain (niche)When you ask them "to check their inbox and confirm" you are giving them an oder... If they follow it, that's the first sign that they are ready to follow your recomendations next time you will promote something!Only Double op-in can allow you to do that!Also, I thank advantage to thank all the warrios in this thread... I'm learning alot from this experience!
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Brock
    Would you all agree that having a promo in every one of your emails is generally a bad idea? I have seen it done often in the MMO niche, but anything outside of that....

    Maybe put a promo every other email?
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    • Profile picture of the author PaulWilson
      I think a promo in every email is too much personally. Your series should be a mixture of free content and promo emails.

      You want to build relationships with these people, not just try to sell to them at every opportunity in my opinion.

      As far as the single opt-in goes. I used to use single opt-in, but now use double opt-in for everything. Initially my opt-in rate went down a bit, but the way I look at it, it just eliminates the freebie seekers, and false email addresses. If people can't be bothered to double opt-in or put a false address in, they're not worth having on your list anyway.

      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Brock
        Hey guys and girls.

        I just wanted to update you all to let you know that I solved the problem and how I did it.

        I kept single opt in on - I just couldn't make myself turn it off because I was afraid of doubling my cost of conversion.

        All I did was remove some of the promos from my first two weeks of the newsletter.

        So the first 2 weeks look like this:

        Day 0[no promo], Day 1[no promo], Day 3[promo], Day 5[no promo], day 7[no promo], Day 10[promo].

        And in order to make the initial sale for those people looking to buy, I basically moved my promo to the ebook and onto the thank you page after they opt-in.

        Hope that helps everyone.
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
      Originally Posted by Daniel Brock View Post

      Would you all agree that having a promo in every one of your emails is generally a bad idea? I have seen it done often in the MMO niche, but anything outside of that....

      Maybe put a promo every other email?
      Now come on Daniel, dont be a wooose pitch in every email, just dont make them all hard pitchs.

      Information in there and an oh by the way this might be useful too

      Use the PS to deliver the pitch sometimes

      Dont sell them it tell them about it
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  • Profile picture of the author butters
    I am new and all but not upselling for 2 weeks after they optin? Isn't that a bit long, I would of just give them the option at the bottom of the email to opt out of the list and just left it at that... Who knows, maybe I am completely wrong
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  • Profile picture of the author Stephen Bray
    I signed up for a webinar recently.
    On registering I got a mail that
    told me that I had also registered
    for a complimentary newsletter.


    Bad move, not permission

    marketing.

    Stephen
    Signature
    Send me a DM, or visit my support desk to contact me: http://support.stephenbray.com
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    • Profile picture of the author rts2271
      I wonder if it's niche related. I have a health niche I've been building for a year and they are whiny as hell.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by Daniel Brock View Post

        Would you all agree that having a promo in every one of your emails is generally a bad idea? I have seen it done often in the MMO niche, but anything outside of that....

        Maybe put a promo every other email?
        Dan you posted this before you posted your solution. From the later post, it's pretty obvious it was the content, not the frequency, which was the problem.

        As for including a promo in every email, it depends on how you define the word "promo"...

        > If you mean a full-on, multi-paragraph product pitch in every email, that's probably too much. Removing promos from parts of your sequence solved your complaint problem.

        > If you mean any mention of a product for sale, it's possible to add a gentle promo in a PS. Give out your solid content, tell them when to expect the next message and what it will cover (if you know), then add a PS that's more of a helpful reminder than a full-on promotion.

        "PS - Just a reminder, you can still get [whatever deal] at [link] if you haven't done it yet."
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  • Profile picture of the author mikebrooks
    7% spam rate is a killer. If you keep that up you could possibly get fined or your autoresponder shut down. Check your autoresponder TOS for spam complaints.

    I use infusion and if I go above 2% I risk getting the plug pulled.

    I have always received the highest spam complaints in the health niches. Just an fyi.

    It really comes down to your email content. There was really good advice given so I won't rehash. But if you're promoting to them without building any value or relationship, you're going to get high spam complaints.

    Heck, even if you're doing all the right things you're still going to get a few real jerks complaining on you. Unavoidable sometimes.

    It's really important to build value so that your readers know and trust you. The advice about reminding them why they're getting your emails is important. Good to do in every email. People may not open 1 of your emails until 25 down the road because a subject finally triggered it. So they still see the reason why they're getting the email.

    I do not mail solely to double opt ins. And I am at less than 1% complaints. Half my list don't double opt in.

    However, with infusion I am able to segment them. And I continually mail the non double opted in folks free stuff offers. When they click the link they're double opted in. Pretty cool.

    But keep in mind, double opted in people can complain on you too.

    Just don't bombard them with offers unless you're also bombarding them with value and you should be fine.
    Signature

    Mike Brooks
    Affiliate/JV Manager for Job Crusher
    IMPartnerPro.com

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  • Profile picture of the author thebitbotdotcom
    Very interesting perspectives in this thread. Allow me to add my opinion and some stats.

    I offer an SEM e-Course. Whenever someone subscribes to the e-Course, they are not automatically subscribed to my newsletter.

    The e-Course doubles as a sales funnel. My goal is to add as much value to the e-Course as possible with an affiliate tool that they can check out about every third message in the series.

    Towards the end of the funnel, my offers switch from affiliate links to freebies that they must re-double opt-in for. This puts them on my permanent newsletter subscribers list.

    Just like traditional media, every issue contains an ad at the very top, then content for the rest of the newsletter.

    Out of all of these ads and offerings, surprisingly, the links that get the most clicks out of everything by a long shot (about 35%) are the ads at the top of my newsletter...go figure.
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  • Profile picture of the author make10
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi,

      You might want to take note that post #40 bumped a year old thread before you start offering Daniel advice on his problem.

      It's more confusing because the day and the month are virtually the same.
      Signature


      Roger Davis

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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi,

        You might want to take note that post #40 bumped a year old thread before you start offering Daniel advice on his problem.

        It's more confusing because the day and the month are virtually the same.
        To quote the Food Network's Alton Brown, "Oh, bother..."
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      • Profile picture of the author mikebrooks
        There's still some really good advice in here though. Even if Daniel doesn't need it someone else might.

        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi,

        You might want to take note that post #40 bumped a year old thread before you start offering Daniel advice on his problem.

        It's more confusing because the day and the month are virtually the same.
        Signature

        Mike Brooks
        Affiliate/JV Manager for Job Crusher
        IMPartnerPro.com

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  • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
    Dan, an update?

    To evaluate the issue I think one needs to have a feel for WHO is subscribing?

    When they subscribe what information are they expecting to receive?

    After subscribing, are they receiving what they expected?

    I think that last point is the key issue, but obviously influenced by the prior questions.

    After all, what would a person consider "spam"?

    - Too many emails? Maybe, but probably not if the content was awesome.

    - Too many ads? Maybe, or maybe they are swamping the content.

    - Content not directly on topic? This is a biggie and I see many IMers have a problem with. Subscribing to get info about X is not a license to start pimping Y and Z without clearly explaining how it is related to X.

    - Subscribers not "excited" enough about the topic to get so many emails. Example: my elderly mom subscribes to get some information you're offering, but is just looking for a one-time dose of information. Suddenly she is getting emails all the time and clicks the spam button.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Here's the straight dope, like it or not.

      Doesn't matter if people are actually searching for your offer. Once they
      hit that squeeze page, many people do NOT want to give their email
      addresses. So they stick any old address in there.

      Sadly, way too many times, it's either somebody else they know or an a
      address that actually exists.

      Then that person gets the email, says "What the $#!T?" and reports it as
      spam.

      You are playing with a loaded gun with single opt in.

      Can it work? Sure. But IMO, it isn't worth the risks.

      My 2 cents on the subject.
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      • Profile picture of the author Sean Fry
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Here's the straight dope, like it or not.

        Doesn't matter if people are actually searching for your offer. Once they
        hit that squeeze page, many people do NOT want to give their email
        addresses. So they stick any old address in there.

        Sadly, way too many times, it's either somebody else they know or an a
        address that actually exists.

        Then that person gets the email, says "What the $#!T?" and reports it as
        spam.

        You are playing with a loaded gun with single opt in.

        Can it work? Sure. But IMO, it isn't worth the risks.

        My 2 cents on the subject.
        Hey Steven, I agree with what you're saying. But how about in situations where you aren't collecting email addresses from a squeeze page? Like a web form placed on a blog for example. Seems a bit more practical to make those single opt-in, rather than double since no one is being forced to input their email address. Would you agree with single opt-in in that situation?
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by snowtiger View Post

          Hey Steven, I agree with what you're saying. But how about in situations where you aren't collecting email addresses from a squeeze page? Like a web form placed on a blog for example. Seems a bit more practical to make those single opt-in, rather than double since no one is being forced to input their email address. Would you agree with single opt-in in that situation?
          It's not the damn page for crying out loud. What does it matter WHERE
          people go if ultimately you're saying to them...

          "If you want this great information that I have for you, just fill in your name
          and email and I'll get it right to you."

          People are afraid of giving their email addresses. That's why double opt in
          confirmation is so low. They don't want to do it. The ones that REALLY
          want your info WILL,

          With single opt in, what does it matter?

          They don't want to give their email?

          No problem...Just plug in their ex bosses email, the guy who fired his ass
          or ex girlfriend and let THEM deal with the spam.

          Single opt in is like putting a loaded gun to your head with 5 of the 6
          barrels loaded and pulling the trigger.

          No thanks.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


            People are afraid of giving their email addresses.
            Of course they're not afraid.

            They weigh up the pros and cons, and make a decision ... "Do I trust this person?"

            Fear doesn't come into it. Anyone who's scared of getting email is a little unhinged if you ask me.

            There's a time for single opt-in, and in my experience it's *after the sale*.

            Any sign-up offer you make *before* your prospect has bought into you (either as a person, or with cold hard cash, preferably both) should probably be asked to confirm their address.

            Cheers,
            Steve
            Signature

            Not promoting right now

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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by Steven Fullman View Post

              Of course they're not afraid.

              They weigh up the pros and cons, and make a decision ... "Do I trust this person?"

              Fear doesn't come into it. Anyone who's scared of getting email is a little unhinged if you ask me.

              There's a time for single opt-in, and in my experience it's *after the sale*.

              Any sign-up offer you make *before* your prospect has bought into you (either as a person, or with cold hard cash, preferably both) should probably be asked to confirm their address.

              Cheers,
              Steve

              Forgive me for using the wrong word.

              People don't want to get email.

              They're sick of their in boxes being overrun. They're sick of not being
              able to find the email sent from their Aunt Tilly.

              And yes, some people ARE afraid of giving their email addresses because
              of these things and other concerns such as having their email accounts
              hacked and so on.

              You don't see this because you're wrapped up in your IM world like so
              many people in this business are. But trust me, there are folks out there
              who would NEVER give their email addresses to ANYBODY.

              With single opt in, they give a fake address, which more times than not
              turns out to belong to somebody (who then reports it as spam) or they
              give the address of somebody they don't like.

              I know this for a fact because I've seen it with my own eyes.

              Single opt in opens up too many doors for abuse, which ultimately either
              lead to your ISP shutting you down (if you have your own script) or the
              3rd party company (Aweber, GetResponse, etc.) to close your account.

              It happens. The threads of complaints of people who have had this
              happen to them are littered through this forum.

              So forgive me for the word afraid (even though in some cases it actually
              does apply.)

              Bottom line: Using single opt in is looking for trouble.

              But hey, far be it for me to tell people how to run their business.

              Ultimately, everybody is going to do what they want to do.
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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                Forgive me for using the wrong word.

                People don't want to get email.

                They're sick of their in boxes being overrun. They're sick of not being
                able to find the email sent from their Aunt Tilly.

                And yes, some people ARE afraid of giving their email addresses because
                of these things and other concerns such as having their email accounts
                hacked and so on.

                You don't see this because you're wrapped up in your IM world like so
                many people in this business are. But trust me, there are folks out there
                who would NEVER give their email addresses to ANYBODY.

                With single opt in, they give a fake address, which more times than not
                turns out to belong to somebody (who then reports it as spam) or they
                give the address of somebody they don't like.

                I know this for a fact because I've seen it with my own eyes.

                Single opt in opens up too many doors for abuse, which ultimately either
                lead to your ISP shutting you down (if you have your own script) or the
                3rd party company (Aweber, GetResponse, etc.) to close your account.

                It happens. The threads of complaints of people who have had this
                happen to them are littered through this forum.

                So forgive me for the word afraid (even though in some cases it actually
                does apply.)

                Bottom line: Using single opt in is looking for trouble.

                But hey, far be it for me to tell people how to run their business.

                Ultimately, everybody is going to do what they want to do.
                Do you think I count...?



                I'm not wrapped up in anything...I'm simply of *sound mind* and can quite easily distinguish between mail I want to see, and mail I don't.

                And besides, I stand by my original point...which is:

                People aren't in the slightest bit concerned about giving out their email address to people they trust...but they *do* think twice about getting ripped off by people they don't.

                I'm not in the slightest bit concerned giving my credit card details, bank a/c number, home address, telephone number etc. to Amazon, but *would* think twice about doing the same to John Doe.

                There's a difference.

                With single opt in, they give a fake address, which more times than not
                turns out to belong to somebody (who then reports it as spam) or they
                give the address of somebody they don't like.
                More often than not? Really?

                Are you saying that >50% of ALL single opt-in subscribers give a false address? For every offer?

                C'mon...

                Like I said: There's a time for single opt-in, and in my experience it's *after the sale*.

                Any sign-up offer you make *before* your prospect has bought into you (either as a person, or with cold hard cash, preferably both) should probably be asked to confirm their address.

                Steve
                Signature

                Not promoting right now

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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by Steven Fullman View Post

                  Like I said: There's a time for single opt-in, and in my experience it's *after the sale*.

                  Any sign-up offer you make *before* your prospect has bought into you (either as a person, or with cold hard cash, preferably both) should probably be asked to confirm their address.

                  Steve
                  Ah, that's a horse of a different color. Yes, I could see it there. Still, I
                  wouldn't.

                  People scream spam with single opt in and you don't have a leg to stand
                  on with your ISP or your AR provider. With confirmed opt in, at least you
                  can say, "Hey, they had to confirm their email address so how can they
                  say this is spam?"

                  I personally don't want to take the chance.

                  But like I said, everybody has to do what they think is best for their
                  business.

                  I'm just sharing my side and my opinion.

                  And that's all it is...MY opinion.
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    • Profile picture of the author mcmahanusa
      Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

      Dan, an update?

      To evaluate the issue I think one needs to have a feel for WHO is subscribing?

      When they subscribe what information are they expecting to receive?

      After subscribing, are they receiving what they expected?

      I think that last point is the key issue, but obviously influenced by the prior questions.

      After all, what would a person consider "spam"?

      - Too many emails? Maybe, but probably not if the content was awesome.

      - Too many ads? Maybe, or maybe they are swamping the content.

      - Content not directly on topic? This is a biggie and I see many IMers have a problem with. Subscribing to get info about X is not a license to start pimping Y and Z without clearly explaining how it is related to X.

      - Subscribers not "excited" enough about the topic to get so many emails. Example: my elderly mom subscribes to get some information you're offering, but is just looking for a one-time dose of information. Suddenly she is getting emails all the time and clicks the spam button.
      Your observation goes directly to a quandary I find myself in at the moment. I am working within a niche that is so specific that I have absolutely no clue as to how to follow up. I don't know a related product or niche that I can promote - at least not right now. Ah well, perhaps I'll get an inspired thought or idea here on the forum.
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  • Profile picture of the author MWGrubb58
    As long as you have good content and few promos, you should be OK. HA! I have 16 emails the first month on my list with only 2 promos... I am probably underusing my list.

    It's all about trust.

    Cheers,

    Millard
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    • Profile picture of the author noangel
      I find it very useful as a subscriber to see some initial info saying I have subscribed.

      Having said that, I still don't feel that by merely subscribing, I should hear from them
      more often than I hear from my own family! But that's just me...

      Angela
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  • Profile picture of the author Kevin_Hutto
    I dont know who you are using for an AR, but if you keep it up at that rate, Aweber will FORCE you to do double optin on your account forever. They close down the single optin option.
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  • Profile picture of the author RyanLeonard
    Originally Posted by Daniel Brock View Post

    Hello everyone.

    I was wondering your thoughts no what is an acceptable number of SPAM complains per subscriber ratio, and some ways to reduce it.

    One of my newer lists has been getting me worried.

    I only have 206 subscribers and have already gotten 15 complaints. I really haven't been doing anything out of the ordinary besides for switching to single opt-in.

    Here is my scheduling: day 0,1,3,5,7,9,12,15,18,21,24,27,30,34,38,42,46,50,54 ,58,61,65,69,73

    Could it be that I am emailing them too often in the beginning?

    I have been fairly lax with my promotions - one decent tip with each email and promo of only one single product(in each email) throughout my entire newsletter series.

    Am I getting worked up over nothing, or is 7% complaint rate something I should concerned about?

    I had the same problem a couple a days ago with single opt ins I got using mobile PPC. Well, they got me at the wrong time and it pissed me off lol- considering I don't sell heavy or often to them. I even had one chick email me telling me to stop sending her "these tips".

    Like I said, they caught me at a bad time, I woke up on the wrong side of the bed- and seeing people marking me as spam pissed me off. Here's what I did:

    I sent out a broadcast with the headline:

    "What Do You Want From Me?"

    and here's the body of the message:

    Wow,

    I've never done this before, but I'm doing it now. Listen up people!

    If you have NO INTEREST in losing weight- then GET OFF MY LIST!
    If you have no interest in GETTING HELP- then GET OFF MY LIST!

    I just can't believe some people. I send out a FREE report- and what do I get?
    A bunch of little cry babies COMPLAINING.

    They're probably just mad because they don't know how to read. Or maybe they're so
    lazy that they aren't even WILLING to read!

    I've got some news for you people:

    LOSING WEIGHT TAKES MORE THAN JUST CLICKING A BUTTON!

    You're going to need to change your lifestyle. And you're probably going to need to buy stuff (please don't faint).

    I do my best to give YOU, my readers valuable information that really will help you,
    and all you do is spit in my face.

    I swear on my life, if YOU people, the people I just mentioned don't get off my email list RIGHT now, I'm going to find you and unsubscribe you myself.

    ================================================== ===============

    I'm sorry to those of you that didn't deserve that tongue lashing... But it's been ignored for too long...

    To those of you that say nice things about my emails- thank you, you will keep receiving tons of valuable information.

    -Jason Jaruso
    ================================================== ===============

    To those of you that want to unsubscribe- PLEASE DO IT NOW! Here's the link:

    IrresistibleWoman! 2414 Kanuga Road, Hendersonville, North Carolina 28739, USA

    To unsubscribe or change subscriber options visit:
    Subscribe/Unsubscribe/Change Options


    I know a lot of people on this forum are going to have a big problem with that lol- but I really don't care. So far- no one's marked it as spam! and I even had that same chick that told me to stop sending her tips write me this:
    "I love your ideas I think that what your saying is all true please send more great tips. "


    So I suppose it had some positive impact lol


    Peace,
    -Ryan Leonard

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    the hottest KINDLE CASE STUDY of 2015 - FREE - NO OPTIN NEEDED!
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  • Profile picture of the author mikemcmillan
    Single opt-ins scare me for a number of reasons. One thing to consider is that if you someday opt to change auto-responder providers, many will not let you import names to their service unless an air-tight audit trail is available as to how you got your names. If they came from a single opt-in method many simply won't let you import them. Just something to consider.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin_Hutto
      Originally Posted by mikemcmillan View Post

      Single opt-ins scare me for a number of reasons. One thing to consider is that if you someday opt to change auto-responder providers, many will not let you import names to their service unless an air-tight audit trail is available as to how you got your names. If they came from a single opt-in method many simply won't let you import them. Just something to consider.
      I moved 500k names about a year ago from aweber and I wasnt asked any questions about single or double optin. Once they knew the list was at aweber they were fine. And I talked to infusionsoft, icontact, constantcontact, getresponse, 1SC and others... The problem was, no matter where I moved the list to, they ALL required that everyone confirm again. So it was like a double optin anyways, and I lost 200k people off the list.
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      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi Steven F,

        Of course they're not afraid.[snip]Fear doesn't come into it. Anyone who's scared of getting email is a little unhinged if you ask me.
        You should consider all possibilities before making sweeping generalisations.

        There are absolutely tons of people out there who are technically challenged - many of them who get very important emails, yet have had to get someone else to set up their email and show them how to operate their computer.

        Some of those people ARE scared of giving out their email.

        Within that group, there is a reasonably sized sub-section who have suffered catastrophic consequences because they clicked a link in ONE spam email - they are even more afraid of getting email that is trying to trick them.

        There are others completely seperate from that group who are not technically challenged who are very afraid of businesses who automatically subscribe their paypal email address to lists when they buy something and may sell the email to spammers - if that email address became FUBAR due to spam, the consequences would be catastrophic for them.

        These people are afraid of giving out their email.

        There are more examples, but this is enough I feel. Just because you have a free email with tons of emails in it is irrelevant and does nothing to prove your point.

        I'm not wrapped up in anything...I'm simply of *sound mind* and can quite easily distinguish between mail I want to see, and mail I don't.
        The insinuation that anyone who can't make this distinction is of unsound mind shows a lack of awareness.

        I don't necessarily agree with Steven W's points, but I don't agree with that aspect of your point either.
        Signature


        Roger Davis

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  • Profile picture of the author 2stace
    I would suggest that you have fewer messages, if possible, and spread the mailing dates further apart. I mail once a week and no more than 2 times in a week and I have not received any spam complaints.

    If you have double opt-in, that is better.

    Make sure to include an "image logo", so that when people unsubscribe (and before they can click "mark as spam"), they will see your banner, picture, or company logo and be reminded that they subscribed to your list.

    Hope that helps!
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Steven F,

      Coincidentally, I'm now getting much more 'scared' about where I opt in to -

      see here
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      Roger Davis

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