The Real Truth About Traffic Generation

by Steven Wagenheim 60 replies
Over the course of time that I've been here, there have been numerous
threads started by people asking what the best way to generate traffic
is, and we've certainly gotten some interesting responses.

Well, it's time that somebody told the REAL truth about traffic generation
because it's not what most people think it is. For one thing, if you're looking
for that magic bullet that's going to bring you a boat load of visitors to your
site quickly and cheaply, it doesn't exist. Of course how quick and how cheap
will also depend on your niche. Traffic generation is very niche dependent as
you will soon see.

I'm going to try to make this thread as complete as I can without boring
anybody to death. I'm not going to cover every form of generating traffic
because we'd be here all day. So I'll just cover a few of the more popular
ones and point out the good, the bad and the ugly of each of them. There
is no perfection, so get that out of your mind right away.

I'll be rating each method on a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being best) for speed
and for effectiveness.

Article Marketing

Thanks to Travis Sago's Bum Marketing, this has become very popular
among those who don't have a lot of money to spend. I'd been doing
article marketing long before Bum Marketing ever became a household
word. I'm glad I did, or I'd be having a very hard time today.

Article marketing is cheap, no question about it. Hell, it's free. But it's also
a slow process. You can't write one article and expect to get thousands
of people to your web site UNLESS you're in a niche that is virtually
unknown. But then, if you ARE, how much traffic do you REALLY think
you're going to get? If there is that little competition, then more likely
than not, there isn't a lot of traffic to begin with.

Article marketing requires you to write constantly. Naturally, if you're in
a niche that isn't too saturated, your articles will get indexed higher in
the search engines. If you're in a competitive niche, not so high. The only
views you'll probably get are the ones from people going directly to the
article directories themselves. I'll touch on search engines last so don't
worry, we'll get there.

Article marketing can be very effective in any niche, provided you write
good articles and submit to places that get a lot of traffic, like Ezine
Articles. All my niches, regardless of what they are, get good amounts of
traffic from submitting there. So from my experience, it's safe to say that
you'll get a good amount of traffic just by doing this. However, you have
to write a ton. There is no way around that unless you outsource all your
articles. Then, it's no longer cheap.


Effectiveness Rating - 10
Speed Rating - 5

Pay Per Click

This can be the best or the worst form of advertising in the world. The
problem with pay per click is twofold.

1. The cost factor, depending on your keywords.
2. The skill factor, depending on how well you can write a 3 line ad.

I'm not going to spend a ton of time on this because there are a zillion
books written on this subject, but I will briefly touch on the two points
above so you understand why pay per click can be such a bitch.

1. The cost factor - Some niches are dirt cheap. You can get a 3rd
position listing for 5 cents with no problem. Have a good landing page, as
per Google's "definition" and you can clean up. My friend Juan Walker
makes a fortune on his acne product using Adwords because he has the
most relevant product for those keywords and has been around a long
time. Look up acne cure and you'll find his product number 1.

However, some niches are a fortune. I don't use Adwords for my IM
products because the CPC is about a buck.

Let's do some math.

Let's say your product converts at 2%. That means, in order to make 1
sale, you need 50 clicks. That's $50 at a buck a click. If you're selling a
$19 ebook, you better have one hell of a backend that converts like
crazy, or you're going to go broke. That is just simple math. There is no
way around the law of mathematics.

So the cost factor of pay per click can make it so that it's just not
feasible to use for your business model.


2. The Skill Factor - In the few niches I am in that are not IM where the
CPC isn't so bad, there is still another problem...how well your ads are
worded. I split test all my ad groups and you'll be surprised how just ONE
word can make the difference between a CTR of 1% and a CTR of 5%.

I am no expert on 3 line ads. I have to work very hard at it. Somebody
just starting out with no copywriting skills at all is going to get buried
by a low CTR. Why? The lower your CTR, the higher your CPC.

Is pay per click highly targeted? Yes and no. Yes, it is if your ad exactly
matches the page that the prospect is landing on. But if it doesn't, you
run a great risk of having that prospect close up your page because it
doesn't match what he's looking for.

Pay per click is NOT for the feint of heart, regardless of what anybody
tells you. There is a ton to making it work just right, which is why there
are so many books on the subject. I know very few people who have
figured this beast out themselves.

My ratings below are based on the AVERAGE PPC user, NOT an expert.

Effectiveness Rating - 5
Speed Rating - 10

Forum Participation

So many people say, "Participate in forums" to promote your product. Well,
guess what? This doesn't work in every niche. Some niches don't even
have forums. Other niches are so strict that they don't allow signatures
at all and even a hint of self promotion and your butt will be thrown out
of the place.

So forum participation is a very select method of promotion. And even
at places where they do allow signatures, you still have to follow the
rules.

I'm not going to get into rules and etiquette here. I want to focus
strictly on the effectiveness and speed of forum marketing. It isn't the
magic bullet people think it is, even at forums that allow promotion.

When you first arrive at a forum, unless you already have a big name in
your field, you're a nobody there. You are unknown. So the first thing you
have to do is introduce yourself. Now, don't think that once you've done
that, people are going to come flocking to your sig file. They won't. You
have to establish a presence there. You have to build trust. This takes
time...LOTS OF TIME.

You have to constantly add to the community while at the same time, not
step on any toes of the long time members. Some may take offense to you
coming in and offering your 2 cents on every subject in discussion. So you
have to tread lightly and carefully. This is one hell of a balancing act and
trust me, I am speaking from painful experience, it is NOT an easy one to
do.

Point is, while forum participation can eventually make a name for yourself,
provided you REALLY have something to offer, it is not an overnight thing.
It can take months before you're "accepted" by the community, if you're
ever accepted. Sometimes, people just don't like you and there's not a
blessed thing you can do about it.

Effectiveness Rating - 10
Speed Rating - 3

Safelists & Traffic Exchanges

Now we run into forms of traffic generation that ONLY work in the make
money niche. Forget about trying to get somebody to buy your get out
of debt product through safelists. This form as well as the others that
follow is just not targeted to anything other than opportunity seekers.

But why?

The reason is simple. The people who join safelists and traffic exchanges
are interested in just one thing...promoting their business. They are NOT
your prospective customers in any manner, shape or form UNLESS you
have a way for them to improve THEIR business. Otherwise, don't even
waste your time.

So, if you are in the "make money" niche, the way you reach these people
is by giving them free info on how to get more traffic to their site and
make more money. Don't try to sell them anything. You're wasting your
time. Then, once you have them on your list and have gained their trust,
then you can try to sell them.

The following ratings apply ONLY if you are in the "make money" niche.

I have built some decent sized lists using these methods. The good thing
about them is that they are free and used correctly, they do work fairly
well.

Effectiveness Rating - 6
Speed Rating - 10

Video Marketing

This is a relatively new gimmick. Truth is, it can be very effective or it can
be a total waste of time depending on your niche and what you have to
offer.

There is no question that in the right niche and with the right keyword
tags for your videos, you'll get indexed at Google damn fast and as you've
seen, some videos have hundreds of thousands if not MILLIONS of views.

But...in order to have this happen, your video better be something that
people are going to talk about and pass around. If your video doesn't get
somebody's attention right away, you're dead. Nobody has any patience
anymore. They want instant entertainment and excitement and that's
what your video has to bring them, otherwise, they won't watch. It's
that simple.

There are a few good books out there on how to create videos that will
make people want to watch. And don't go by my videos. I'm just a tell it
like it is guy and my videos are far from entertainment and don't get many
views. I do mine strictly for a very select groups of people.

Now, there is another problem with video. Even if you get a lot of traffic,
you will find, depending on your niche, that a lot of this traffic is worthless.
Why? They're just surfers. They're not really looking for any great solution
to a problem OR they're looking for a free one. You will find many reports
from people saying that their video traffic doesn't convert well, if at all.

Bottom line: Video is a crap shoot, even WITH a great video. Depends on
your product and what you're offering.

Effectiveness Rating - 2
Speed Rating - 10

Social Bookmarking

I'm not going to go into a long spiel on this because my experience tells
me that this is not a quick fix. In order to get any significant results from
social bookmarking sites like DIGG, you have to constantly bookmark the
articles on your blog, site, whatever, and write constantly. Over time,
you'll see some results. But again, just like video marketing, which at least
is fast, the traffic is pretty crappy unless you're bookmarking something
that is really so incredible that people have to have what you're selling
in relation to it.

Effectiveness Rating - 2
Speed Rating - 4

Search Engines

Ultimately, this is what it all comes down to.

Bottom Line: Somebody types in "How To Fix My PC" and your site ends
up on page X.

That's it. That's all that matters.

I've been fighting the search engine wars for over 5 years now. With
some keywords, you'll find me on page 1. With others, you'll find me
nowhere. It all depends on the competition and how much time you want
to spend working on:

Optimizing your page versus the other guy
Getting backlinks
Doing link exchanges
Off Site SEO

And so on. This is the slowest traffic generation method in existence,
trying to win the SE wars. Good luck. I don't even bother trying anymore.

Instead, I focus on using promotional techniques that get my message in
front of my prospect quickly and cheaply. Over time, these methods do
build up momentum and do bring me in a nice income.

Here is the breakdown, percentage wise, of my monthly income.

Article Marketing - 67%
Safelists, TEs, FFA Sites, Message Boards - 20%
Forum Participation - 13%

My monthly advertising expenses - $200
My average monthly income - $10,000

I'm cheap, but my ROI is also ridiculous.

Do I work a lot of hours? Yes. If you look at my above analysis of traffic
generation methods, you'll see why.

Now, I haven't covered everything as far as traffic generation. I've left
out things like buying leads, classified ads, banner exchanges, solo
ezine ads, and a few others, either because they are insignificant, don't
work or are just not cost effective enough. Solo Ezine ads actually can be
very good if you know some tricks. I'll cover that in another thread
someday because they'll take a whole thread to explain properly. There is
an art to solo ezine ads.

Anyway, I know this was long (took about an hour to type out) but I
hope it was helpful to somebody.

As you can see, there is no magic bullet to traffic generation.

I doubt that there ever will be.

** DISCLAIMER** The above is based on my own personal experience. Your mileage
may vary.

** Further Reflections** It appears I've ruffled a lot of feathers with this post. It wasn't
my intention. Sorry about that.
#main internet marketing discussion forum #article marketing #traffic generation
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Thanks for sharing the 'real' truth.

    It's probably worth pointing out that it's YOUR version of the 'real' truth.

    I'd actually completely disagree with your assessments of the effectiveness and speed in most cases - but then that's MY version of the 'real' truth.

    It's the beauty of IM - you can pick the models and methods that suit YOU and work them however you want.

    Obviously you like forum marketing, article writing and safelists.

    Those are lower down on my list because PPC and JV's have always been the quickest and easiest ways to make 6 figures for me, and the SEO, social and video marketing are currently proving the quickest and easiest ways to get massive organic traffic.

    I've never liked safelists so I simple don't use them.

    It's horses for courses.

    We all have our version of what works - which is why I think people should consider what's working for others but not look to others for the fundamental model they should use, everyone is different and will do better with what suits them.

    It's interesting but makes IM great and very flexible - there is no one 'real' truth, just individual maps of what can work.

    Andy
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    nothing to see here.

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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

      Thanks for sharing the 'real' truth.

      It's probably worth pointing out that it's YOUR version of the 'real' truth.

      I'd actually completely disagree with your assessments of the effectiveness and speed in most cases - but then that's MY version of the 'real' truth.

      It's the beauty of IM - you can pick the models and methods that suit YOU and work them however you want.

      Obviously you like forum marketing, article writing and safelists.

      Those are lower down on my list because PPC and JV's have always been the quickest and easiest ways to make 6 figures for me, and the SEO, social and video marketing are currently proving the quickest and easiest ways to get massive organic traffic.

      I've never liked safelists so I simple don't use them.

      It's horses for courses.

      We all have our version of what works - which is why I think people should consider what's working for others but not look to others for the fundamental model they should use, everyone is different and will do better with what suits them.

      It's interesting but makes IM great and very flexible - there is no one 'real' truth, just individual maps of what can work.

      Andy

      Yeah, I probably should have added a disclaimer that this is based on
      my own experience.

      I didn't even touch on JVs because that's something that isn't entirely
      under your control. All these other methods you can do on your own,
      without any help from a third party. With JVs, well, the trick is getting
      one and that's not always so easy. I was focusing on things within your
      own control solely.

      But you're absolutely right, everybody is going to have their own
      perception of the truth according to their experience, so I probably
      should have added that disclaimer.

      Maybe I'll go back and do just that.
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    • Profile picture of the author lakshaybehl
      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

      Thanks for sharing the 'real' truth.

      It's probably worth pointing out that it's YOUR version of the 'real' truth.

      I'd actually completely disagree with your assessments of the effectiveness and speed in most cases - but then that's MY version of the 'real' truth.

      It's the beauty of IM - you can pick the models and methods that suit YOU and work them however you want.

      Obviously you like forum marketing, article writing and safelists.

      Those are lower down on my list because PPC and JV's have always been the quickest and easiest ways to make 6 figures for me, and the SEO, social and video marketing are currently proving the quickest and easiest ways to get massive organic traffic.

      I've never liked safelists so I simple don't use them.

      It's horses for courses.

      We all have our version of what works - which is why I think people should consider what's working for others but not look to others for the fundamental model they should use, everyone is different and will do better with what suits them.

      It's interesting but makes IM great and very flexible - there is no one 'real' truth, just individual maps of what can work.

      Andy
      yeah it is about your version of the truth actually. For me PPC has been killer especially when I know I am going to build a valuable "ASSET" in the form of a list.

      And the best part, in non-IM niches, its perperually autopilot- just set and forget!\

      That said, it's not always the case. Sometimes, I do have to struggle with it if there are a lot of other people with their own products.

      But if your conversion is 2%, you need to have a better salesletter. just look at other salesletters around, and make yours better. Also, you don 't really have to use PPC for a $19 product...

      PPC is way too cool when your product is $147 one with 3% conversion on targeted traffic and 20% conversion on exit traffic list building endeavor.
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  • Profile picture of the author geo9x9
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    • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
      Without insulting you here Steve....

      I totally disagree, and I was quite shocked to read through and find nothing even close to the truth.... at least, for myself anyhow...

      Whilst I appreciate that this is YOUR side of the coin, I have to say that your analysis has holes in it and although it may be what you make work for you.. it isn't necessarily what will work for everyone else..

      Some people like working hard...

      Me?..... I prefer working smart.. but thanks for your perspective anyhow Steve and please appreciate that this is just my opinion and .02 <-- worth every penny too

      Jay
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      Bare Murkage.........

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      • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
        Oooopppsss..

        Just saw you edit

        Jay
        Signature

        Bare Murkage.........

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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

          Oooopppsss..

          Just saw you edit

          Jay
          Jay, glad you saw the edit. No problem.

          I am curious about one thing though. Do you just disagree with my
          effectiveness and speed ratings or with my overall analysis of each
          form of promotion and what is required to make it effective?

          For example, do you disagree that you can't just throw together
          any old pay per click campaign without making sure that you're using
          the proper keywords, have a good 3 line ad, split test, and most of
          all, have a landing page that fits your ad? Because if so, I'd have
          to totally disagree with you. You can't just throw any old thing
          together and expect it to work and most people just starting out with
          pay per click don't pay attention to all these details which is why they
          get slapped silly and end up spending more than they make.

          Or am I wrong there too? If I am, why are so many people buying books
          on Adwords is it is indeed so easy. My experience has been that it is far
          from easy and requires an enormous amount of time, patience and
          baby sitting to make work.

          But then again, that's just my experience.

          If anybody has been able to just slap a PPC campaign together and
          be profitable with it, I'd pay good money to find out how.
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          • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            Jay, glad you saw the edit. No problem.

            I am curious about one thing though. Do you just disagree with my
            effectiveness and speed ratings or with my overall analysis of each
            form of promotion and what is required to make it effective?
            I just think your analysis is VERY biased towards article marketing... and the glossing over of the others, and then subsequently poor ratings of them seemed a little off..

            And then add into the fact that you said this is THE TRUTH, makes it a little off center...

            SEO and advanced PPC to name just 2 forms that you missed and/or didn't evaluate fairly...

            To say the average PPCer will only have an effectiveness rating of 5 is ludicrous.... maybe a total n00b, but someone who has taken the time to get to average in terms of knowledge can get extraordinary results...

            You gave social bookmarking a rating of 2 and 4, and whilst YOU may have these... I know for sure that isn't true to anyone who uses bookmarking as it is intended.....I'm not saying it's mahoosive either... but it's not as bad or laborious as you make out...

            have you ever checked how quick DIGG bookmarks can get onto page 1 of The G?.... couple that with proper use(not just blatant promotion) and you have a killer promo strategy..

            Anyhow.. all this becomes invalid as it is my perspective and you stated above that this is the truth from YOUR perspective... your title may have been a little mis-leading, but aside from that... your truth is your truth..

            Jay
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            Bare Murkage.........

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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

              I just think your analysis is VERY biased towards article marketing... and the glossing over of the others, and then subsequently poor ratings of them seemed a little off..

              And then add into the fact that you said this is THE TRUTH, makes it a little off center...

              SEO and advanced PPC to name just 2 forms that you missed and/or didn't evaluate fairly...

              To say the average PPCer will only have an effectiveness rating of 5 is ludicrous.... maybe a total n00b, but someone who has taken the time to get to average in terms of knowledge can get extraordinary results...

              You gave social bookmarking a rating of 2 and 4, and whilst YOU may have these... I know for sure that isn't true to anyone who uses bookmarking as it is intended.....I'm not saying it's mahoosive either... but it's not as bad or laborious as you make out...

              have you ever checked how quick DIGG bookmarks can get onto page 1 of The G?.... couple that with proper use(not just blatant promotion) and you have a killer promo strategy..

              Anyhow.. all this becomes invalid as it is my perspective and you stated above that this is the truth from YOUR perspective... your title may have been a little mis-leading, but aside from that... your truth is your truth..

              Jay

              Fair enough Jay. Hey, maybe someday you'll share some of your PPC and
              social bookmarking secrets with me (for a price of course ) and I can
              change my very biased analysis.

              I'm never too old to learn new tricks.
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              • Profile picture of the author Shane N
                Hey Steve,

                I know you're getting slack for this post, but I think it was quite generous of you to type for an hour trying to give everybody here an honest report of your experience. I am sure you were honest in your reporting, so it must be "the TRUTH!"

                Of course, it's not the truth for everybody's experience, but it is for yours.

                I like your point about there being no 'magic bullet.' This is especially true and is sound advice.
                PPC advertising being a perfect example, it may be the magic bullet for one person, but the next person may go broke from it and never make a sale.

                Everybody has their own strengths and weaknesses when it comes to traffic generation.

                Thanks for the interesting read!

                Best,
                Shane
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                • Profile picture of the author Mr.P
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                  • Profile picture of the author Collette
                    At the risk of getting slapped upside the head...

                    I'd say all these methods of generating traffic have their place. But if your goal is sales (not just raw traffic volume) what works most effectively will very much depend on the demographics of your market and the product you're selling.

                    For example, if I'm selling a gaming system to 20-somethings, Twitter, Facebook, Ebay, PPC, and YouTube would all be good places to be focusing my marketing efforts.

                    In this case, article marketing, maybe not so much.

                    However, if I'm selling a health-related product that appeals to the 35+ crowd, article marketing, SEO, and PPC (with a kick-ass sales page) is probably going to get me much better, targeted traffic. That's cause this particular demographic is information-hungry. They want the details - and lots of them - before purchasing.

                    And if you're selling IM-related stuff, JVs are usually, hands-down, the most bang for your buck.

                    So, really, it comes back to dispassionately evaluating your product and knowing your market before you throw your time and money at any particular traffic method.

                    IMHO.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                      This is a great post - thanks Steven.

                      I think the problem with the original title is not so much one of "truth" as the implication that traffic = sales per se, when we know that all traffic is not created equal.

                      You have to first define what type of traffic you want and what you're going to do with that traffic when and if you get it.

                      If my goal was to sell physical products, for instance, I might be best advised to use eBay, at least initially. If I wanted to sell websites, then maybe Sitepoint or Sedo would be top of my list. These sites have all the targeted traffic I would need for my purposes.

                      I think this post by Collette was right on the money:

                      Originally Posted by Collette View Post

                      At the risk of getting slapped upside the head...

                      I'd say all these methods of generating traffic have their place. But if your goal is sales (not just raw traffic volume) what works most effectively will very much depend on the demographics of your market and the product you're selling.

                      For example, if I'm selling a gaming system to 20-somethings, Twitter, Facebook, Ebay, PPC, and YouTube would all be good places to be focusing my marketing efforts.

                      In this case, article marketing, maybe not so much.

                      However, if I'm selling a health-related product that appeals to the 35+ crowd, article marketing, SEO, and PPC (with a kick-ass sales page) is probably going to get me much better, targeted traffic. That's cause this particular demographic is information-hungry. They want the details - and lots of them - before purchasing.

                      And if you're selling IM-related stuff, JVs are usually, hands-down, the most bang for your buck.

                      So, really, it comes back to dispassionately evaluating your product and knowing your market before you throw your time and money at any particular traffic method.

                      IMHO.
                      And Andy Henry continues to remind us all of the reasons we got into IM in the first place. Priceless stuff!

                      Frank
                      Signature
                      I've just put Richard Branson's number on speed-dial. I call it my "Get-Rich-Quick" scheme.

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                      • Profile picture of the author Folusho
                        Although I don't agree with everything you wrote Steven, I admire how you have come to your results.

                        I on the other hand, am a lazy bum compared to you. I focus more on PPC and I'm very happy with the results.

                        I also don't agree that it costs $1 click in the make money niche. I have 15 cents a click on average.

                        So using your equation from above I would only spend $7.50 for 50 visitors and $15 for 100 visitors. So if my conversion is only one percent I'll still would make $35 profit per 100 visitors.

                        But honestly, your sales letter needs to be top notch even to get 1 percent conversion on a $50 product through PPC.

                        That's why I love using PPC to generate subscribers first, and sales second, so I can make the most of my investments.

                        Quick question though Steve, just curious to know how many articles you write a day to get the results that you achieve?

                        Because I also do article writing myself, but I outsource most of it.....

                        I think it's great for all of us to share our results so we can learn from one another.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                          Here's how I would describe the real truth about traffic generation...
                          1. Test out as many traffic generation methods as you can
                          2. Analyze your results and apply the Pareto Principle (80/20 Rule)
                          Signature
                          "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
                          ~ Zig Ziglar
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                          • Profile picture of the author LB
                            The beauty of IM is the variety by which one can succeed. Steven's post was completely wrong for me...but I totally respect his approach.

                            I've never written an article for a directory or done any social marketing or any SEO ever. (actually I have done some basic SEO but if my income depended on it I wouldn't be in good shape)

                            To each their own.
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                            Tired of Article Marketing, Backlink Spamming and Other Crusty Old Traffic Methods?

                            Click Here.
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                            • Profile picture of the author emini_guy
                              Originally Posted by LB View Post

                              The beauty of IM is the variety by which one can succeed. Steven's post was completely wrong for me...but I totally respect his approach.

                              Yep, and it's the very same variety that makes it so easy to get confused, lose focus and get nowhere.

                              I agree with Steven that articles work well for traffic. While I am now getting most traffic from search engines (Google #1, Yahoo #3), EzineArticles.com is #2, so articles do generate decent traffic.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Eric Johnson
                              Good post Steve, The core message of there is no "magic bullet" came through loud and clear. In fact I was a little surprised by others reactions. Maybe it's how I read it. It seemed to me that the post was primarily for newbies and I think that for someone who doesn't know what they are doing your advice is spot on. Yes, once you learn the inner workings of PPC you can do great things with it but if you don't you can absolutly lose your shirt.
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              • Profile picture of the author OnlineMasterMind
                Hey Steven,

                I have to chime in here and say that...

                I believe that this has to be one of the most labor intensive ways to make 6 figures online there is.

                I certainly don't doubt what you say works does in fact work, yet I'd be cautious of ranking and reviewing traffic methods that you don't derive any real income from.

                And I'm even going to go out on a limb here and say that there are EXPONENTIALLY more marketers earning 6 figures from PPC and SEO than any of the strategies you pointed out. (and doing it with FAR LESS work!)

                But hey, no disrespect... I give you credit for taking the time to share what works for you.

                I'm even going to build your reputation

                EDIT: Uhhh, is the reputation feature no longer available? lol
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            • Profile picture of the author Kyle Tully
              Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

              I just think your analysis is VERY biased towards article marketing... and the glossing over of the others, and then subsequently poor ratings of them seemed a little off..

              And then add into the fact that you said this is THE TRUTH, makes it a little off center...
              I gotta agree with Jay, it may be your truth but it's FAR from the truth of most people I know, including myself.

              PPC, SEO, JV's and other paid traffic sources would be WAY up on my list for both effectiveness and just as importantly, time involvement.

              Like the rest of your business, I respect what you do and how you do it, but I believe there are far more effective ways to go about things.
              Signature
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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                I want to thank everybody for their feedback. I well knew I was going to get
                a lot of slack for this post even before I made it. In the past, I would have
                gotten all defensive about it. Now I'm just going to take it on the chin like
                a man and move on.

                But...for those few who really got the point of my post (no, not so much
                on each method of traffic generation and how good or bad it is cause I knew
                that's what most people would focus on) way to go.

                For everybody else. I'll point it out so that it's more clear.

                1. If you notice, I didn't give any method a 10 across the board, not even
                article marketing which I do extensively. It is a very slow process and takes
                a ton of writing. In ain't for everybody.

                2. My comment on "no magic bullet". Your best method for promotion and
                getting traffic may fail miserably for somebody else depending on their
                niche, skill level and other factors.

                Point is, and this IS the point I was hoping would come across, when
                somebody comes here and asks...

                "I want to get tons of people to my site. What's the best traffic generation
                method?"

                The honest answer is, there is none. Because what works for you may not
                work for him.

                In other words, it's the unanswerable question.

                And THAT is the real truth about traffic generation.

                Everything else is just your own personal experience.
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                • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
                  Hopefully that message is nice and clear now then

                  There is no one path to true glory.

                  However, the other side of that coin is that this leaves a great situation where every can take hope in the fact that with all things considered, anyone can be successful.

                  The answer to how is simple - Don't base your business on what other people say works, check out your options and then test things and come up with the most effective but workable plan that YOU can grow.

                  There are shortcuts, since some things can easily be scaled and put on virtual auto-pilot, so it's not a good idea to just pick random things and focus on them, but to create your own plan that leverages your skills and resources to get your own version of maximum results.

                  Someone with $10k a month to spend on their business obviously has more options than someone with a very limited budget, so even when it comes to different strategies the game is open to work in whatever way you can.

                  Andy
                  Signature

                  nothing to see here.

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                  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                    Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

                    Hopefully that message is nice and clear now then

                    There is no one path to true glory.

                    However, the other side of that coin is that this leaves a great situation where every can take hope in the fact that with all things considered, anyone can be successful.

                    The answer to how is simple - Don't base your business on what other people say works, check out your options and then test things and come up with the most effective but workable plan that YOU can grow.

                    There are shortcuts, since some things can easily be scaled and put on virtual auto-pilot, so it's not a good idea to just pick random things and focus on them, but to create your own plan that leverages your skills and resources to get your own version of maximum results.

                    Someone with $10k a month to spend on their business obviously has more options than someone with a very limited budget, so even when it comes to different strategies the game is open to work in whatever way you can.

                    Andy

                    Hey Andy, how did you get so smart?

                    Lots of words of wisdom here.

                    Ever think of starting a mentoring program?
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                    • Profile picture of the author Neil S
                      Hey Steven thank you for sharing this list. Although some people have disagreed with your rankings, clearly this format works for you and can serve as a blueprint for others. Everyone is going to have their different style of marketing. It's a matter of trying out lots of different methods and picking what works best for you.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Buckley
                        I'll tell you what, Steve: You depressed the hell out of me with your original analysis because, basically, I believe you.

                        However, I cheered up as everyone else chimed in to give you "flak" (not 'slack', slack means leeway) and you clarified your statements.

                        I think I get it now: Total noobs and cheapskates should stick with free methods. For everyone else, combine free with paid methods for best results.
                        Signature

                        "Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something." -Plato

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                        • Profile picture of the author Shane N
                          Originally Posted by Paul Buckley View Post


                          However, I cheered up as everyone else chimed in to give you "flak" (not 'slack', slack means leeway) and you clarified your statements.
                          Slack
                          Pronunciation:
                          \ˈslak\
                          Function:
                          adjective
                          Etymology:
                          Middle English slak, from Old English sleac; akin to Old High German slah slack, Latin laxus slack, loose, languēre to languish, Greek lagnos lustful and perhaps to Greek lēgein to stop
                          Date:
                          before 12th century

                          1: not using due diligence, care, or dispatch : negligent2 a: characterized by slowness, sluggishness, or lack of energy <a slack pace> b: moderate in some quality; especially : moderately warm <a slack oven> c: blowing or flowing at low speed <the tide was slack>3 a: not tight or taut <a slack rope> b: lacking in usual or normal firmness and steadiness : weak <slack muscles> <slack supervision>4: wanting in activity : dull <a slack market>5: lacking in completeness, finish, or perfection <a very slack piece of work>
                          synonyms see negligent
                          — slack┬Ěly adverb
                          — slack┬Ěness noun

                          Cited:
                          slack. (2008). In Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary.
                          Retrieved August 9, 2008, from slack - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
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                        • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
                          Sorry Wags, but I gotta call this "The Real Truth According To Wagenheim". For one, you're calling video marketing a crap shoot? I'm sorry, but I take offense to that. It may be a crapshoot when you don't plan your videos, but ....
                          Signature
                          Kevin Riley, Kevin Riley Publishing, Osaka, Japan


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                          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                            Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

                            Sorry Wags, but I gotta call this "The Real Truth According To Wagenheim". For one, you're calling video marketing a crap shoot? I'm sorry, but I take offense to that. It may be a crapshoot when you don't plan your videos, but ....
                            No offense taken Kevin. I have about 50 videos up at Youtube and I do okay
                            with them. They just don't bring me my most amount of traffic.

                            As I pointed out in numerous posts above, I should have clarified things a
                            little better.

                            Heck, I'm even promoting your "how to make videos" course because it's
                            absolutely killer.

                            I just suck at making killer videos

                            You're still my fav Kevin. Honest.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
                              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                              I just suck at making killer videos
                              Hey - who said YOU had to make them?

                              All you need to do is decide what you want and why, other people can do the rest.

                              I know that might sound lazy, but I am lazy and I like giving other people the opportunity to let me pay for doing what they love. (although I do make videos too, but I am lazy )

                              Steven - your problem is that you work too hard. Get lazy and things can change massively.

                              Andy
                              Signature

                              nothing to see here.

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                              • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
                                Forum Participation

                                Effectiveness Rating - 10
                                Speed Rating - 3

                                Forum Participation - 13%
                                Didn't anyone else notice the irony in Steven's numbers?

                                An hour to write the original post and a significant amount
                                of additional time replying on a one-to-one basis to every
                                response.

                                Steven, I suggest you use your own data and invest your
                                time in more rewarding activities.

                                John
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                                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                                  Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

                                  Didn't anyone else notice the irony in Steven's numbers?

                                  An hour to write the original post and a significant amount
                                  of additional time replying on a one-to-one basis to every
                                  response.

                                  Steven, I suggest you use your own data and invest your
                                  time in more rewarding activities.

                                  John
                                  Hey John, ain't that the truth

                                  Did I ever tell you that you're a pretty smart cookie too?

                                  As many have said to me, "Steve, you're successful in spite of yourself"

                                  Guess somebody must be watching over me.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author lauraswane
                                    I can't believe I read through that whole thing. It was really interesting. Its actually inspired me to try out some of the higher rated techniques right now. Thanks for all the explanations.
                                    Signature
                                    Send Your Sites Page Ranking Through The Roof! All This In Only 15 Minutes.

                                    http://www.easytrafficbuilder.com

                                    Laura Swane
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                  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
                    I had to disagree with the title, because it made it sound like anything else was not the truth, and yet you have said many times that certain areas you would like to learn about.

                    I started with PPC and it was very successful for me. I didn't lose any money, and it gave me the jump start that I needed to get traffic and sales.

                    I also disagree about social marketing, it really does depend on which sites you use and how you use them. I have used some to get my site indexed in a couple of hours, and then get traffic to it almost immediately. But, I don't use the sites that most people are promoting and that works really well for me.

                    My best way of getting traffic is organic. Free, easy and quick
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                    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                      Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

                      I had to disagree with the title, because it made it sound like anything else was not the truth, and yet you have said many times that certain areas you would like to learn about.

                      I started with PPC and it was very successful for me. I didn't lose any money, and it gave me the jump start that I needed to get traffic and sales.

                      I also disagree about social marketing, it really does depend on which sites you use and how you use them. I have used some to get my site indexed in a couple of hours, and then get traffic to it almost immediately. But, I don't use the sites that most people are promoting and that works really well for me.

                      My best way of getting traffic is organic. Free, easy and quick

                      You're right Bev. HORRIBLE title. I can't change it so what's done is done.

                      I hope the post got the message across that I was trying to get across
                      at least. Serves me right for writing this up in the morning when I'm half
                      asleep.

                      Well, like I said in my post above (somewhere), I'm just going to take this
                      on the chin like a man and move on.
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          • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            For example, do you disagree that you can't just throw together
            any old pay per click campaign without making sure that you're using
            the proper keywords, have a good 3 line ad, split test, and most of
            all, have a landing page that fits your ad? Because if so, I'd have
            to totally disagree with you. You can't just throw any old thing
            together and expect it to work and most people just starting out with
            pay per click don't pay attention to all these details which is why they
            get slapped silly and end up spending more than they make.

            Or am I wrong there too? If I am, why are so many people buying books
            on Adwords is it is indeed so easy. My experience has been that it is far
            from easy and requires an enormous amount of time, patience and
            baby sitting to make work.

            But then again, that's just my experience.

            If anybody has been able to just slap a PPC campaign together and
            be profitable with it, I'd pay good money to find out how.

            Hi Steven,

            "You can't just throw any old thing
            together and expect it to work"

            That applies to any promotional strategy.

            It is perfectly possible to slap up a PPC campaign and be profitable right away.

            The key to it is the same as being successful with any strategy - that is - research.

            If you just jump in both feet first and start spending money on things - you can make any strategy fail.

            But conversely you can make almost any strategy work too.

            They say if you fail to plan you're planning to fail and this is never truer than in IM.

            Also, there are obviously methods for increasing speed and effectiveness of most things. You can set up 500 PPC campaigns in 2 minutes with the right tools, but speeding up a bad plan still gets you bad results, but speeding up a solid plan gets you quicker profitable results.

            I know we already disagree on the bookmarking stuff and I proved to you before (putting my neck on the public chopping block) that I can back up my expectations for those activities, so I know why I can make that work - but despite your title 'the REAL truth' and the fact that you've seen me get results quickly and easily with bookmarking, you still rated it low for effectiveness - and you DO know that others make it work, so I'm a little puzzled why you positioned the information as somehow definitive when you obviously know that other people can make the things you're calling ineffective work effectively.

            Perhaps the problem is just in the wording of your title since it implies that you're exposing some fundamental truths about the results achievable with particular strategies, but it's actually completely just focused on what YOU can do with those strategies, not just what you know is possible, but specifically just how they relate to you.

            Maybe we've done this issue to death now, but some unsuspecting people will read your post and think that you're sharing facts - rather than perception.

            Andy
            Signature

            nothing to see here.

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    • Profile picture of the author Amund Opsahl
      Great post, Steven!
      Here's four traffic generation tactics that works great in a few niches..

      1. (I didn't tell you this) DLL sites for the warez niche.
      2. Toplists for the gaming niche. (I once had a gaming forum and I got 200+ members in 2 weeks because of a few toplists!
      3. Craigs list - all niches
      4. Banner Xchanges - all niches

      -Amund
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      • Profile picture of the author Platinum Matt
        Steven, you're primarily a writer.

        That's the bottom line.

        You do what you are best at, and it works for you.

        Other methods DO work, but they often require lots of time and patience to figure out at first.
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  • Profile picture of the author thegamecat
    Thats a great post Steve, even though I believe in many other traffic generation techniques this is great information for an article writer, or someone who wants to base their business on article writing. Thumbs up from me.
    Signature

    Flying

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    • Profile picture of the author grumpyjacksa
      I cannot comment, because I do not presume myself qualified. Almost like a kid among the grownups.

      The size of my IM paycheck does not allow me to criticize. And that probably goes for a few others on this thread as well........

      Let the big guys have it out.
      Signature
      Ex-ghostwriter now writing exclusive PLR ebooks - Limited PLR Club
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      • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
        Originally Posted by grumpyjacksa View Post

        I cannot comment, because I do not presume myself qualified. Almost like a kid among the grownups.

        The size of my IM paycheck does not allow me to criticize. And that probably goes for a few others on this thread as well........

        Let the big guys have it out.
        The fact that you have an IM paycheck makes you a player

        Seriously, this isn't a contest - we're allowed to debate these things and you're a member here so you have as much right as anyone to put your point of view across (unless it's different to mine )

        You probably have insights that no-one else does.

        Andy
        Signature

        nothing to see here.

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      • Profile picture of the author A Chandler SEO
        I don't agree with some your assessments, but that's no big deal in most cases we are in agreement or similar.

        What I find refreshing is you evaluations of these methods. However, they are way to general in most cases. I, for on, have B2B sites and social bookmarking is useless for conversions. However, it is a great source of traffic generation for the affiliate marketers who is needing traffic volumes to be successful.

        I want to thank you for taking the effort to write such a post and then stick with it. This is what I personally wish all forums would be about, an open discussion about business practices. Your ROI, if accurate is very impressive.
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        • Profile picture of the author Terry Hatfield
          Hey,

          I give one big vote for affiliate marketing.

          ...Nothing and I mean notta beats the traffic you can get from having others sell your products for you!

          Truth according to Terry,

          Terry
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          • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
            Steven

            I think the most helpful comments here are the ones that suggest what kind of methods work for which niche (and, of course, which people).

            Maybe a thread or even an ebook on that would be really useful.

            Martin
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            • Profile picture of the author KenJ
              For people relatively new to the forum this kind of post is perfect. It gives us basic info and options.

              I am perfectly capable of trying these ideas out and testing them for myself. But I hadn't thought of some of the methods mentioned by Steve - so it is good info for me.

              Also because we all seem to be lone rangers just finding out what others think and believe helps me think through what my opinions are

              Boy its late - does this make any sense?
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              • Profile picture of the author TheMagicShow
                Steven,

                you are an honest marketer and you should have labeled this post "what works for me", I am not posting to bash you at all, your main strengths are in writing and that is evident. Stick to your strong points and outsource other materials that you lack strength in, since ppc is something new for you, why not give it a try and outsource it for minimal costs and see if you can recover some good profits from it, minus the costs of course.

                This forum is filled with some amazng entrepreneurs that have great experiences in many different marketing/business models, so you can't please everyone, just stick with what works for you.

                Cheers,
                Magic

                P.S - you say your youtube videos do not get lots of views, then ramp them up, make them unique, have a professional create you a video that can possible get you lots of views, video marketing does work and I was first amazed by watching that blender video on youtube, don't give up on video Steven!
                Signature

                " You can either give a man a fish and feed him for a day OR teach him how to catch a fish and it will feed him for a lifetime"

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                • Profile picture of the author David Surk
                  your problem is that you work too hard. Get lazy and things can change massively.
                  Andy Henry has officially become my guru.
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                • Profile picture of the author Chicks
                  Very informative and helpful.
                  Thanks a bunch.
                  Signature

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                  MoneyDumper.com - A Unique way to advertise yourself and gain fame for it.

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                  • Profile picture of the author MoaddinFM
                    ** Further Reflections** It appears I've ruffled a lot of feathers with this post. It wasn't
                    my intention. Sorry about that.
                    Hi Steve. Why so shy? I think it is great to have a discussion on a thread that important. Of course, your post is based on your proper experience and knowledge and preferences. But again, it is great to have an active discussion running here!

                    *thumbs up*
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          • Profile picture of the author Jose Delgado
            It sure is a long post but Hell, it was worth every second of my time.

            Now I know why Ezine Articles likes you so much Steven, cause you are one Damn Good writer.

            Thanks for all the tips.


            .
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            • Profile picture of the author I.M.Retired
              Steve: Thanks for posting this. Since traffic generation is one of the most difficult tasks (well, I find it difficult) to accomplish with any degree of success, your article is very timely.

              For me, because my sites and sales efforts are mostly local in nature, I still find the printed word the best traffic and lead generator of all. At this time, there are gazillions of websites out there. Most people in my area could care less and don't spend a lot of time looking for them. (Mine or anyone else's - most simply play on Facebook or eBay.)

              A very proportionately small number of Internet Business or Websites are being advertised offline - at least in my area that is the case.

              So for now, offline ads are one of my best traffic generators.

              I guess than makes me not a REAL Internet Marketer, but it does help pay the rent
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  • Profile picture of the author Chipt
    Hey, Steve and others -

    Personally, I appreciate the effort you put forth and the spirit and intent of your original post here, and those thoughtful replies here as well.

    One broad-brush aspect to consider IMO is that each of us probably has favorite traffic methods that have rewarded us, so we've developed some comfort and expertise in those particular methods...

    {Perhaps to the detriment of other traffic methods we pay less attention to, but are equally viable?}

    For me, my favorite traffic method is JVs for all the reasons people here already know, so I won't belabor the bennies of JVs... but the one thing I will say is that the relationships built before and after JVs are, as the commercials say, "Priceless."

    Not all traffic methods have this built-in and long-term benefit... and each day you are unemployed and broke before a given traffic method kicks in and is successful [however you personally determine what 'successful' is.]

    And OMG if your main traffic source should crash, get hacked, go out of business overnight, etc...

    With relationship JVs, people who know, like, and trust each other can share great stuff with others who could use it, providing a good service to the people on their lists... [and yes I know that some JVs are purely for the money and that's all.]

    Any way... thanks from me to everyone for your well-thought-out posts here, and I believe I and the other Warrior readers here can personally have a good take away from reading these opinions and experience here, all of which have value IMO.

    Chip Tarver
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  • Profile picture of the author invitetheweb
    Articles are pretty darn easy to get on sites like EA so I don't know why more people do not take advantage of this technique.

    Thanks Steven!
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    I disagree with you on one major point Steven.

    As you can see, there is no magic bullet to traffic generation.

    I doubt that there ever will be.
    The truth is that some of us will eventually find our personal magic bullet, magic button, or magic elixir for traffic generation.

    My magic button will likely not look like your magic button, but we both have them.

    You and I are both article marketers, and we do pretty well with that.

    You and I also avid forum marketers, and we do pretty well with that also.

    Although we share some commonalities, my magic button does not look like yours, nor yours like mine.

    We all have the capacity to find our personal magic button, but even if you described in precise detail what yours is, I likely could never duplicate it to the point that I could mimic yours with any consistency.

    It is a mistake to believe that you and I could ever have a corner on the Traffic Generation knowledge, although both of us can and do generate a substantial amount of traffic for our websites.

    In my business, I have the opportunity to talk to people with very diverse backgrounds, who play in article marketing exclusively, and those who do article marketing as a sideline.

    I know people who spend $100,000 per month on PPC at a profit.

    I know people who spend $300,000 per month on Facebook ads, at a profit.

    I know people who use press releases almost exclusively and generate five figures per month.

    I know people who successfully utilize social media as the front end of their sales funnel, and they are making a killing.

    I know people who make a lot of money creating affiliate products, and training their affiliates to drive traffic from a multitude of sources.

    When I sat down to take a solid look at all of the Traffic Generation Methods that I could describe and contribute positively to the understanding of, I came up with 35 Traffic Generation Methods. I gathered information from people I knew, who utilized the defined techniques, and turned that knowledge into my most recent product called, "Multiple Traffic Streams".

    But I didn't just write the information, I am practiced in the information as well. Of the 35 methods I described, I have used 31 of them myself.

    I like best article marketing, SEO, forum marketing, social media, and press releases, in that order.

    I have even been profitable with PPC myself, but on such a small scale that it did not make sense to ramp up those campaigns.

    Most of your critics in this thread have been critical for what you left out of your post, and your assumption that you had a corner on the truth.

    While the criticism is fair, the critics also failed to realize that while their magic button is different from yours, that does not make your magic button wrong -- it just means that their magic button does not look like yours and vice versa.

    The new person who has not yet found their magic button for traffic generation is best to sit down and take a look at all of the various traffic generation methods available to them, and then to test those methods to find the best matches for their business.
    Signature
    Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
    Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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  • Profile picture of the author Joshua Rigley
    Banned
    Well this is going into the best threads list. Nice one Steve. I absolutely agree with your take on forum marketing; it can be extremely rewarding, but you have to put in a lot of hard work first.

    I don't agree with your method of social bookmarking though. I feel the problem with the traditional approach is that people are just using them to get the backlink. But there's a lot more potential in there that people just aren't taking advantage of.

    The whole point of sites like Digg is to share your favorite web pages with your friends. If IM'ers were to participate on those sites (like forums), they would get better results.

    Thanks for your post Steve.
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt.Lake
    LOL... two years old. What brought this thread back from the depths?
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by Matt.Lake View Post

      LOL... two years old. What brought this thread back from the depths?

      The evergreen quality of Steven's threads. LOL
      Signature
      Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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      • Profile picture of the author ReignBird
        Originally Posted by Matt.Lake
        LOL... two years old. What brought this thread back from the depths?

        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        The evergreen quality of Steven's threads. LOL

        Definitely an oldie but goodie (a WF Classic?), glad someone bumped it for noobs like me.

        I might not ever have clicked on 10 or 12 of the links in various sigs in this thread, based on the excellent informative points made, nearly so soon, if ever.

        Thanks to all, quickly learned a lot I'm already at work putting to actual use.
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  • Profile picture of the author Edwin Torres
    Thanks this must of tooken you a while to write
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    • Profile picture of the author RobDB5950
      Interesting thread, old but has some good info. i love copying and pasting good info's into my research text folder!
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        I have no idea what brought this thread back and, quite honestly, I have
        learned a lot since I first started it.

        I don't even agree with everything I posted back then because, as I have
        discovered, things change...constantly.

        So the one thing, and the only thing, I will say for certain now is that there
        are no absolutes.

        Some things that I swore would always work very well have turned out
        to not work so well because of changing times. Other things that didn't
        work as well, now work much better.

        I am constantly learning and reinventing myself online.

        I won't even rule out someday putting big bucks into PPC, even though
        I don't need the money anymore and can't find the motivation to go
        through the hassle.

        But I will never say never...not anymore. I have learned too much and
        have been humbled too much by what I thought I knew but come to
        realize I didn't have all the facts or that the facts changed.

        The biggest mistake ANYBODY can make in regard to their business is
        to think that they know it all and that nothing will ever change.

        I learned those lessons the hard way.

        You don't have to.

        Keep an open mind, test, and adapt to changes.

        Because trust me...things WILL change.
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        • Profile picture of the author celente
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          I have no idea what brought this thread back and, quite honestly, I have
          learned a lot since I first started it.

          I don't even agree with everything I posted back then because, as I have
          discovered, things change...constantly.


          I learned those lessons the hard way.

          You don't have to.

          Keep an open mind, test, and adapt to changes.

          Because trust me...things WILL change.
          Yes, hit the nail on the head with that one. We are currently changing many things with our sites, and its time consuming...but it is just to test and move our sites into more moden times.

          The internet is constantly changing, and you have to keep up with it.... There are not too many big changes.....but the smaller changes all add up in the end.

          i am not sure why and old thread like this has come back and reincarnated.....hmmmmm
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