This makes me want to QUIT!

Mike, we've had the same thing happen to us on a few occasions...

Don has been banning refunders for over 6 months now, I believe.

I know how frustrating dealing with certain people can be.

In my experience it's easier to be the first and best than it is to worry about copycats too much.

I have a goal to help 1000 people become millionaires and I love teaching. I would have a hard time giving up helping people. I love it too much.

I feel for you, yesterday i got a refund request, and the reason given was.. i've learned everything I need from the book now.!!

I had another last week who asked me to cancel his subscription for him, i politely replied with the link where he could do it and he sent an email back to me calling me every name under the sun.

I just console myself with the knowledge that some people will never be successful. Karma is a powerful tool.

(istill got to learn to not take it personally!)

On the subject of copying stuff , one of my demo niches has become one of the most copied niches i've ever seen. (I still rank #1 though....(take that Bozo's)

I've seen methods I created used in various reports and one guy even took a donation ware program i had and boasted how he had made $250,000 with it.... never donated a single cent!

Bitter??....nah lifes too short

Sorry to hear you had such "customers".
Unfortunately, I guess, we all have to deal with it.

Yes, it is sad that such kind of people do not appreciated someone`s hard work at all. I suggest you to not get too upset about it as those kind of people would never be able to achieve their goals (neither become real competition) just because of their lack of integrity.
Wish you to have as many regular customers, so such (mis)users won`t distract you from your good work.

When you genuinely try your best to help and you do help a lot of people it does get to you when you just get used. It's life draining. And I agree with your above quote.

Thanks,
Adam

Mike, I know what you mean. I helped someone over the course of a few months. It was free, just sending them answers to their questions to help them start their business, and then move it on. Seems they kept the emails and put them onto video and now sells it as their own course.

It is one reason I am careful who I help these days.

Hi mike, I understand fully. I am a newbie to internet marketing and I can't stress enough on how frustrating it can be when you have a majority of people looking for free stuff, not to mention , your ppc campaigns budget shot to the roof! A business can't survive like this, you are in business not only for the money, but also giving people a quality product they can use and make money out of, but unfortunately may people don't understand this.
This is my view of the situation; If you know you will be successful in your chosen field, then you fork out the cash and get what you need to aid you in your endeavors.
But for those that have doubts, they are always looking for free stuff.
I know I will be successful one day, so I always pay for what I need for my success.
I just wish that the majority was the same.
By the way, what is your product about and how much do you charge?
Cheers, pierro

Hopefully the ones that do that are a small minority, but they can really make one angry.

I think I would mess with them once I found out their sales page. First I would buy and refund right away. Then I would examine their sales page for any false claims and ... {stop}

Ok I'm not going to tell all my secrets.

Here's how you fix the problem, something I figured out a long time ago:

I give a refund for any reason, or no reason. Then I let it go and I don't think about it any further and I don't waste any more time on it. Instead, I choose to spend my time on my legitimate, loyal, paying customers and NOT on losers who will never convert into what I would consider a "good" customer.

I'm about building relationships, and freebie seekers aren't. Therefore, we're not compatible, so I don't waste my time worrying about it.

Just this week I've asked my first refund - the script unfortunately didn't work in my WinVista64 - so i just shoot a PM to seller explaining what was the problem and asking for the refund. My first one.

But i understand what you're saying Mike.

When i sold my Offline WSO i had a guy who bought it at 13.02 and one minute later asked for a refund cause... it was not as advertised.

lol?

He didn't had time to read it OR go over the 20 minutes video

Now for the copycaters,

I understand why more and more senior Warriors don't share their ideas and methods, both for free or in WSO's, and they just come here to "chat".

It's not worth it anymore.

Fernando

It is only a very small percent who do this, buy something and then ask for a refund one minute later.The majority of people are honest.I guess this comes with the profession.It´s unfortunate but what can you do about it.

Some people buy a product and then use social bookmarking to make it available across the internet, that is something I cannot understand.

If instant refunders bother you, you may want to put in a requirement that they wait some fixed amount of time to request a refund, perhaps 7 days. State in your sales material that it in order to be successful it would take most folks at least 7 days for them to read, process, and learn from your product and to try the techniques taught, therefore no refunds will be offered until 7 days after the sale date.

Explain that this protects both the buyer and seller.

If it's any consolation, I've learned that refunds are just a part of doing business. I have exactly the same thing happen, whereby someone purchases a product then wants a refund later.

I think you are taking it personally, and not as a business. I used to take it very personally, and in fact on occassion would fight back and forth (one guy literally lied about not getting the product, and I ended up spending probably 10 hours over 2-3 days 'fighting' to keep a $30 sale... When I stopped and thought about it, I realized $30/10 hours = $3.00/hour... and it wasn't really worth my time... And... I actually ended up giving him a refund )...

Focus on increasing your volume, as opposed to worrying about the individual sale. Yes, those guys that do that are idiots, and you want to confront them face to face and say 'wtf'... been there, done that, but it is not worth your time/worry/heartache, etc, etc. Definitely not worth worrying about quitting your business over. Focus on the 'good' people, and focus on growing your business.

Also:

One thing you should look at... Why are these people doing it? It may actually be a blessing in disguise. If you have a large number of people requesting a refund, most likely somehow you are not convincing them in your sales letter that they are getting 'real' value for their money... So while they may see 'some' value in your product/service (that is why they are copying it) -- they don't think it is worth "that" much so that is why they request a refund... So you might either consider re-writing your sales copy, or, lowering the price of whatever product/service you have, so that they don't feel the 'need' to get a refund.

You'd be surprised how many people would ask for a refund for say a $49.95 product because it is "expensive", versus say a $10 product which is inexpensive enough that it 'doesn't really matter'.

I don't have a problem with refunds but what I have a problem with is people buying my products, blatantly ripping them off and then reselling them as their own. To add insult to injury they also ask for a refund.

I guess I'm just starting to get a little annoyed with those types of people!

Mike Hill

With digital products refunds are a part of the business.

One way to cut the refund percent is to make it a physical product.

You know Im seeing more and more warriors posting their displeasure of either being ripped off or burnt by others on this forum that it makes me feel that there should be a dedicated private "genuine honest decent members" section through some sort of invite system only.

*shrug

There are a lot of people who buy a product from someone else with the intention of COPYING what they have to offer and their 2nd intention is to ask for a refund.

There are other times that people buy good and solid courses and when they figure out that they have to do the work to succeed, the ask for a refund or even worse, they email you and call you all the BAD names in the book.

I have seen a lot of people copy other people's sites and sell it as their own.

Tal

Unfortunately, this is NOT just an "internet marketing" i.e. how to make money phenomenon.

I spent a lot of money on lawyers shutting down a guy who was selling copies of my products about a year ago. He actually rewrote some of it, but it was obvious copyright infringement.

Turns out the guy purchased all my products and didn't refund them...he chargebacked all his purchases with me...

It happens all the time.

I've had my share of complaints lately about the people the 'fast-money digital info product' market seems to attract. And when I thought about it, it occurred to me that many people of this demographic cut their teeth online downloading copyrighted intellectual property for free in the name of 'file sharing.' That was back in the day of free warez sites as well.

I refer to this crowd as the skateboard generation. And for the record, I don't believe they are all thieves and also realize that people of any age might be willing to pinch a product if it's easy enough.

With that said, I've been searching outside the 'info product' niche as many here see it and looking for markets where the drive by pirates are less likely to lurk. There are actually lots of good opportunities out there with buyers not looking to GRAB 'cash-sucking, stealth-ninja-assassin, autopilot' products and instant, effortless success.

So it seems there a number of ways you can circumscribe (if not entirely) the problem of refunding:
1. impose a waiting period.
will that stop everyone?
2. eliminate refunds altogether.
what about chargebacks?
3. increase your sales to offset this
4. increase your pricing/quality/format
5. use lock and disable...? probably not entirely safe. does it work with pdfs?

I've been facing a similar type of issue offline recently, but haven't satisfactorily solved the issue at all. But I would suspect that one or two carefully selected strategies would eliminate all but the most legitimate refunding.

Kenneth

Not to be a jerk or anything, but if you're getting that many refund requests, maybe it's time to do a little quality control on your own products. People are voting with their dollars in asking for refunds, and not all of them are creeps.

I have been banning refunders for quite awhile. I don't want to do business with someone who believes that it's ok to purchase something, keep it and still get the money back for it. If that's ok with them, they aren't who I want to be doing business with. There's also a high probability that if they refund once, they will do it again.

Refunding and then using your material in that manner ... well what can you say? They are just ripoff artists ... scammers.

Not being very well endowed with brain matter, in order to "create a product" they must rip off someone else.

This is not just in the internet marketing crowd. I have had this happen so many times and what really ticks me off is when they buy it and have the nerve to email you saying that your product is great but money is tight and so they would like me to honor my no questions asked refund policy.

I switched my guarantee to a double your money back CONDITIONAL guarantee and even with the conditions I receive serial refunders.

If people REALLY want their money back there is nothing we can do. As long as we sell digital goods paypal and credit card companies will never fully be on our side.

I wouldn't quite though.

If they're too lazy to create their own product, there are very high odds that they're too lazy to drive any significant amount of traffic to their sales page.

There will always be a few who take shortcuts, regardless of the ethics.

Personally, I get a great deal of satisfaction from helping people. There's absolutely no way I'll let these bozos that THAT from me.

I understand Mike's frustration. It isn't just the refunds, but the content thieves that are rewriting his stuff and selling it as their own that's bugging him most. The bottom line on that is that people intent on stealing and using your stuff for their profit are going to do just that, no matter what.

Hi Mike,

As you already know, there will always be people who do what you are talking about. That's the price we pay for being in this business. I have written a lot of self-help material and the same thing has happened to me. I have found my articles under different author's names, I have seen my stuff on eBay, it's just the way it is.

The one thing that we, as marketers, often forget is that there is a HUGE market out there and tons of new people are coming online every day. These people that take your stuff can't even begin to tap the internet marketing niche. We worry about staurated markets, high competition and things like that but it is really a non-issue. It might be an issue for someone who is new to the game but an experienced marketer will always find new ways to market their product and new crowds to market it to.

An ebook is just an ebook. A report is just a report. It's the personality behind it that makes it special. It's the customer service that makes it special. It's YOU caring about your customers that will keep them coming back time and again.

I certainly wouldn't allow the actions of a few people to keep me from doing that I enjoy and what is profitable. Most people like that don't understand that there is no money to be made off your methods unless they actually implement them and they are not likely to do that.

Take care!

I agree with other posters, the people that do copycat you...they aren't going to make it for long b/c they aren't industry leaders, like yourself.
I would only be concerned if it is seriously impacting the bottom line, meaning a majority are refund requests.
When I was new to the industry, I liked having a refund, it showed that the seller had a product they believed in, that would work for me or else I get my money back. I've had to ask for a refund only twice....again a 'overpromise, really under-deliver' situation.
I would be very frustrated with the ripping off though. Isn't there a way to protect that? It's a big risk. Legal action would most likely be a waste of your time as those that rip you off are probably not worth much to go after anyway.

Sorry about that.

I am clicking on your link to look at your products though

Whether we are seasoned vets or just starting out there is one thing we all share; we are somebody's else's consumers. That is we are all consumers.
In the offline world when I'm in a business I pay attention to how well the owners treat their employees. Why?
Because their employees are somebody's else's customers and I reason, displays their view of customers/consumers in general. If they don't treat their employees with respect I don't they will their customers either.
My point?
There seems to be a geniune lack of respect by some here towards customers.
Let me give you a consumer's point of view. Even though I'm on disability and currently time doesn't equate to a dollar value it still holds value to me.
I joined two marketing membership sites over the years, both by the way very complete, but that so much information and laid out in such a way that I got lost going from one part to another. One I spent a year in and the other 6 months. Money aside what is those 18 months worth?
As a recent example I signed up for a coaching package. I usually read about something that appeals to me, read the fine print and check out the order page and let it simmer for a few days or weeks before I order. Sometime's this is just neccessary because of money issues. This particular order page had three options, one time, quarterly or monthly with the one time checked and I didn't notice that when I checked the monthly option that the yearly one time option stayed checked as well. Even when the total at checkout showed a dollar amount more, I thought that was the preminuim I was paying for the monthly option.
I have a debit card that I use for these types of purchases that is separate from my main debit card and I only keep about a hundred dollars in it. Well I took notice with an email overdraft alert from my bank! I immediately emailed support and when I hadn't heard back in 24 hours I called my bank and disputed the one time charge but not the monthly fee. $35 overdraft might not be a big deal to some but it is to me. When their support finall got back to me they seemed to think their response time was adequate. I should add when I 1st sent in the report to their support I didn't even recieve an automated reply. I have a notion that when things start out wrong they usually keep missing the mark the farther you go. I figured this was as much their fault as mine. I've learned in communication that if someone can, they will mis interpert what you say.
Anyway not a very good first impression from either of us. So I thought that a fresh start was needed and requested a refund for the monthly fee by phone explaining that I intended to resign but that I wanted to begin the process correct. They did refund and then banned me from the forum and their list. I find it interesting that while they didn't have an automated reply to their help desk they apparently do have one in place to automatically ban a consumer.
While I'm sure that they were put to extra trouble it took me about 10 days , several phone calls to both them and my bank and snail mail to the bank to get everything resolved. My time is important to me also.
A positive example is a membership that I had to cancel recently because of several monthly extra medical expenses and they kindly kept me in their membership. I have not taken advantage by using anything there and don't intend to until I can start paying again but you can be sure I'll remember them.
What I really wanted to say is more understanding is needed by both marketers and consumers.
While not completly addressing the title but somewhat related to the subject I'd like to make what I hope is a positive suggestion. At least I know it would work for me and others like me.
I have a mild to moderate brain injury that impacts memory, sequencing tasks, and odd quirks like at times spelling, other times learned repetive tasks just leave. It's like I just landed from Mars and seeing it for the first time. I wait for their return and I view it as another facet to my being. Brain injuries are much more common than you might think. I notice the NFL is taking note of concussions.
Also I read in another thread that newbies misunderstand the use of "easy" in their sales copy. According to dictionary dot com easy is described:"not hard or difficult; requiring no great labor or effort." Or. "readily comprehended or mastered." Neither of those defintions indicates years of a learning curve. I'd say brain surgery was easy once learned but but I don't think anyone would describe it as easy.
I grew up in a culture that valued work so I don't mind work.
I'd like to see an incubator type project with testing/questionaires that reveal learning styles, apitudes, a kind of physcological profile I guess you'd call it. Then present the information in the different styles and selected niches that your apitudes reveal. I'd like to learn to build a website/blog step-by-step in an controlled environment first, in a niche I'm interested in. This "training-wheel" period could last anywhere from 6 months to a year. After an initial entrance fee, the incubator's owners could partner with the student to split from the revenues. That way both parties have an interest in success. At the end of the 'training-wheel' time the student could buy the site, the incubator owner could buy the site or they continue the partnership. Either way it would be moved separate from the project.
Maybe this idea is not feasible.
I hope nobody takes offense as I just hoped that maybe both "sides" could be a little more tolerant of the other and not assume scam.
Many thanks for this forum.
-Lyn

It can be very frustrating teaching others I go back and forth between teaching it and just doing it all the time.

While some make money and make you feel good others just want everything done for them.

That is really low.

Good job on remaining calm. Not sure I would have acted appropriately in that situation.

Take the copycats as a compliment. It only proves that you teach good stuff

Damn, I didn't realize the situation is so bad in MMO niche. I was thinking of creating a product in MMO and after reading your comments, I am having second thoughts. But again, I don't know if I should change my thinking to it's a part of life and move on.

Hey mate,

INTEGRITY. That's what is TRULY going to matter in the next decade or longer.

It's too easy to steal and share INFORMATION in the "information age".

People can steal my info, but they can't steal my integrity.

And that is what truly matters. Think of it this way. As time goes on, most of the stealers will not be doing your kind of stuff, they will still be stealing from others, and going for the quick kill.

You and I will develop followers, because we will grow in our expertise, and in integrity.

Best to you,

Mr Twenty Twenty

PS: And consider developing a "niche" that can't be stolen. I am doing that now. I am "mr twenty twenty", professional visionary, ex hostage. And many of my future and current projects will be spun around "the power of vision" etc. Once you invent a niche, it's hard to steal. Maybe impossible.

I understand where you are coming from. It is so frustrating to see people trying to steal your ideas. I know you are in Canada but there is one way to protect your information products.

You can register them for a copyright in your country. I do this with all of my original products. I then make sure the copyright notice is included on every page of my ebook and all of my sales copy, etc.

If you own a registered copyright in an ebook, then you have the right to bring an action against anyone who violates that copyright. For example, if someone takes your ebook and then tries to write their own from it then they are going to have a real hard time proving that it was not a derivative work of your original work.

I have had people take my ebooks and then try to rewrite them. Let me tell you I was not happy and it was evident that they changed the title and a few words here and there. The ebook was basically the same and verbatim in most areas of the ebook.

So I sent the person a "cease and desist" letter telling them that they were violating my copyright on the ebook that they copied. I informed them that I would pursue legal action and inform their web host and domain host about the copyright violation.

This occured in the US but all countries including Canada are members of the Berne Convention on copyrights. So you can register your product and enfore your rights.

You can find copies of these kinds of letters all over the internet. Most of the time the cease and desist letter works since these people have never been confronted in this manner. Most of the time, the web site suddenly disapears and they go away.

There are more ways to handle this but I will leave it at that for now. Hope this helps.

Also, sounds like you really like to teach and have a lot of good info to give. Don't let those sleazeballs ruin your desire to educate other people. Everyone on this forum benefits from other people contributing their knowledge. Good luck.

Mike, it literally makes me sick to my stomach that I have to inhabit this planet with the type of people you've described in your rant. Yes, there are so many "bottom-feeders" in this world who lack any sense of integrity, honor, initiative, or creativity and feel that they are entitled to simply take from others. I wish you well, my friend, and hope that karma will help balance any sense of justice in this world. I also hope you will continue to teach and help the many folks of quality and integrity who value and appreciate what you have to offer.

Man, What a sad story to hear. Refunding your items is not the problem here but the feeling that all your hard work is being pirated is terrible. but as you said "YOU CAN HAVE ALL THE MONEY WITH YOU BUT REMEMBER THAT YOU CANT TAKE IT WITH YOU" Goodluck!

Hhm...it's really agonizing to sweat it out trying to make an awesome product only for some people to make it all seem worthless. Well, this is how I see it.

If you decide to shut teaching IM all together, then technically, you let them win, by calling it quits. Obviously, there is a solution to every problem, and so does this one. Only that you haven't found a solution does not mean that it will be impossible to prevent this.

So if you've done self-diagnosis and found that nothing is wrong with the product -- and this simply means, does the product deliver exactly it promised on the sales letter? -- then keep working at a multitude of other niches.

Spending energy at them will only pull you back.
As one IM guru mentioned, why would you hunt down people stealing $1000 worth of your empire when you have a whopping $1,000,000 empire to run?
So, would you take off looking for one lost sheep, and leave the entire herd by itself?

But obviously, this does not disqualify your efforts to stop them from "looting" your ideas.

I know how you feel.

An newbie warrior purchased my new plr package earlier this year and I had a new plr product that was to be delivered at a later date as a bonus. I hadn't even created the bonus yet which was why it was to be delivered some weeks later.

This guy purchased the product, PM'ed me within 5 minutes and said "where's the bonus product?", I told him he'd have to wait a few weeks. Half an hour later, I'm assuming after downloading the entire plr package, he posted in my WSO thread "I want a refund now thanks".

I promptly refunded the money and asked out of curiosity why he asked for one, if it was something with the product then I would appreciate any feedback allowing me to make improvements.

He said, "it's not the product but I see one person is already selling it".

I couldn't believe it, that was the whole purpose of plr products, he must have thought he could have gotten a $1,000 plus product for next to nothing, all to himself.

But it gets better, he then joins my list to be notified of my next plr product release, can you believe it?

Then I get this weird PM telling me that he's into black hat marketing and he's got some great e-books that he just got hold of and offered me the link where I could access them from.

I politely said "no thank you", I wouldn't be surprised if he had received those e-books for free by the same ill gotten gains and no doubt mine was now part of that collection. I scratched him from my list.

Moving on, I was stuck with this lovely demand for a refund request in my thread. It became a ghost town, everything went quiet.

People who were interested in purchasing my product, were naturally of course PM'ing this guy and asking exactly why he wanted a refund, he then had the cheek to say "Nothing's wrong with the product, it's a very good product but don't buy from the seller buy from me, I'll give you 50% off if you buy from me!"

I have no idea how long this had been going on but one incredible warrior PM'ed me to tell me this loser was trying to sell my product to him at a discount even after I had refunded him.

Anyhow, this fantastic warrior purchased from me despite being offered the chance to get the entire product for half the price.

I quickly reported the offending person to admin and they were banned.

At the end of the day, no matter what happens, there are still great people out there despite some of the sharks circling for a freebie.

Mary I don't want to make the same mistake that I assume you made taking one construct out of context. For the record thieves are digusting, whether that is government stealing tax dollars or those that rip off other's work. However all that I am saying is that there is two sides to an issue and as a consumer I'm presenting another angle. Take any way you want it. That is your concern not mine.
Also for the record words do mean something and forced continunity is to me like fingernails on a blackboard. And Mary this is not directed at you.
I'll give you an extreme example of force vs power: Rape is force and Love is power.
-Lyn

How do you ban those kind of people? They can still come back with different email addresses.

I think it's worse if you do flipping websites. Couple of my marketing friends have been cheated many times.

Hey Mike I can understand your frustration but honestly is it worth it?

I mean sure there are people like that but I am sure there are thousands more people who truly do appreciate your work and because of you have a better lifestyle.

Also when you think about it, the people that just copy your stuff and sell it never make the money, they just move from one B.S scam to the next.

Don't waste your thoughts on them man.

It's the 'China' method Mike! But I agree with what Steve Waggenheim says; you are still going to outmarket these guys and stay on top.

That and yes, you should keep some of your secrets to yourself.
brent

Waiting period might work well. Allows a means for legit refunds and many of the non legit ones might forget about it.

The only Mike Hill product I have is LBCM and I would be that if some little cyber douche tried to copy that program, it would suck anyway.

Be the original and best and write them off man.

Please don't quit...you're one of the good ones!

Where the heck have you gone anyway????

Mike

Damn Mike that really bites!

May I ask you two questions? That was the first one.
Second question is, What is a Refund? ...lol

J/K guy, I feel your pain.

Have a Great Day!
Michael

I see the same thing with CB products, as times get tougher we will all see it more.

Hi Mike,
Firstly i would like to say please do not give up because of these naughty boys! or girls!. There are many ways that you can legally stop them doing what they are doing and it does not cost the earth. I am sorry but i do not know the type of product or products you sell but i am more than happy to help you if you send me the links.
Cathy

I've bought a lot of IM products and never asked for a refund because I learned a little something from all of them.

But refunds are a part of doing business, even from losers who just want to copy your material.

I think it's up to us to find ways around them and become better at what we do. At the least, it could be one of our selling points that people are copying us, but we are the original!

If you are selling ebooks on information etc what always works for me is that one or two of the paragraphs i put in a work that is mine ( not in a dictionary ) an example would be if i was selling an ebook on 'How to become a successful Affiliate' i would have somewhere in the text something like.....' Not to convolute things and making it gobbledegookie'......then if anyone steals my work they are breaching copyright issues as derivate works of mine....which do not have to be copyrighted with a patent office? So if the works were then copied and sold by the thieves you can get them removed from google, ebay etc just by showing them that it is your work that has been stolen.....they will then lose loads of money. Look at the horror stories on Cash on demand and how those guys are getting people knocked off Ebay everyday.... For reselling/copying Cash on deman courses and products.
If there is a will there is always a way.

I wish ClickBank would BAN people who have purchase more than 10 products
and have more than a 50% refund rate.

Im apologize for those people "the refunders" that cause you this grief...
And i understand its a hard work just to create/develop a system and just rob you the ideas....
Im new ... and looking forward to learn things here...
and i didnt knw there were others like this...