Do this and you could be losing list members...

73 replies
Hi,

I have noticed since I have been back that list builders are doing something that personally ticks me off and is making me unsubscribe to their lists.

I am finding that after joining a list that I keep getting emails saying here is your free gift bla blah blah only to find out its a sign up page for someone else's list.

Here I am expecting to just click on a link and get my free whatever it is and now I have to join some other list.

I don't have a problem with joining another list if the info is goo but please just let me know that I have to sign up for this free item and don't have me thinking its a direct download.

I am now unsubscribing to lists that are doing this in their emails and I am sure many others are too.

I have started building my list and if I send out an emailing stating get your free product its a direct link not some sign up page..

Any thoughts on this>
#list #losing #members
  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    Let me add to the pet peeves instead of starting a new thread...

    I really hate this obvious ploy of sending out an email with an "accidental" bad link, then sending a follow-up a few minutes later saying, "Oops - here's the correct link, my bad." How smarmy can you get?

    Look, if your list is so pathetic and uninteresting that you have to transparently trick your members into opening your messages, get another gig. Stop clogging up my inbox with your nonsense. I unsubscribe from any and every list whose owner resorts to anything like this. Gurus be damned if they get in on it. Desperation has a bad smell.

    John
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    • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

      Let me add to the pet peeves instead of starting a new thread...

      I really hate this obvious ploy of sending out an email with an "accidental" bad link, then sending a follow-up a few minutes later saying, "Oops - here's the correct link, my bad." How smarmy can you get?

      John
      Maybe I'm missing something.....what's the point of wasting an email with a deliberate bad link? It forces you to send a second email just to do what you could have done in the first place with the original email. It makes no sense. In fact, it makes about as much sense as sending thousands of people to a dead website just so you can email them a second time asking them to do what they were already there to do after your first email.

      In other words, no serious person is doing this.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Cat,

        John (zeus66) brings this up at every opportunity. (Edit: John says that this is incorrect, and that I'm either confusing him with someone else, or with a different issue. That's possible. If so, I apologize for the error.) (Second edit: The rational points were made privately. His public response was to call it "a damn lie." Okay. If you insist.)

        Still it does come up distressingly often. Doesn't matter that there's never been a single credible shred of proof that any significant number of these are deliberate. Or the fact that it damages your credibility with a noticeable fraction of your subscribers when you do it. The people promoting this fallacious idea are convinced, and that's the end of it.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          If you're a makerter, or want to become a successful marketer...
          why on earth would you be offended by marketing?
          They're not offended by marketing. They're offended by what they see as deceptive marketing. There's a reasonable point to be made about whether or not the tactic in question is deceptive, but you're not making it.

          Saying, "Don't bitch about any marketing, since this is a marketing forum," is pretty much guaranteed to cost you credibility with quite a number of people in the group.

          An example: No-one serious bitches about continuity deals here unless there's a perception that the recurring billing part of the offer wasn't properly disclosed. Those arguments aren't always correct, but the principle is.
          "Don't pitch me from stage." (Sure. I mean, it's just criminal that I should
          teach you my best ideas for 75-80 minutes, and then take 5 minutes to let
          you know what further training I have available. Right? I guess I should do
          it for FREE. Heck, maybe I should pay YOU to listen.)
          Again you miss the real objection: "Don't make me pay to listen to a pitch." And it's rarely about 5 minutes out of a 60- or 90-minute presentation.

          If you're going to counter the objection, perhaps explaining the economics of the seminar model would go farther to gaining understanding than accusing people of being stupid whiners for what is an easily understood objection, absent that explanation.

          If you're going to argue with someone, you should at least make some effort to understand what it is you're arguing about.

          You have something of a history here of skipping that step.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Gerardas Norkus
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            They're not offended by marketing. They're offended by what they see as deceptive marketing. There's a reasonable point to be made about whether or not the tactic in question is deceptive, but you're not making it.

            Paul
            Yes, Paul is alsolutely right here. Great post.
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          • Profile picture of the author Daniel E Taylor
            I hate when marketers use capital letters at the
            beginning of every sentence.

            I'm unsubcribing from every list that does this. I'm sure
            many others feel this way (Even though I've never done
            any testing I'm just talking out my ass)

            So you could be losing subscribers if you put a capital letter
            at the beginning of sentences.

            Daniel
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            • Profile picture of the author DougBarger
              Originally Posted by Daniel E Taylor View Post

              I hate when marketers use capital letters at the
              beginning of every sentence.

              I'm unsubcribing from every list that does this. I'm sure
              many others feel this way (Even though I've never done
              any testing I'm just talking out my ass)

              So you could be losing subscribers if you put a capital letter
              at the beginning of sentences.


              Daniel

              LOL. I take it you're having a little fun with it there Daniel?

              Joking aside,
              And not too off topic,

              Did you know testing confirms capitalizing the
              First letter of each new line of copy

              Whether grammatically correct or not,

              Has proven to increase readability and scroll rates?


              Apparently, it makes the text of the copy easier to
              Read and helps alleviate eyestrain which gets more scroll action.

              Why would we want more people scrolling down more of our copy?

              The more copy your visitor reads, the more selling your copy does.
              And the more scrolling the more *order form* impressions.

              The more order form impressions, the more order form submissions.

              Bottom line?

              Yep.

              It's another example of some of the processes which can seem
              To be counter-intuitive and yet produce some great results!

              Most of the people who are using the marketing practices
              Being discussed in the op,

              Didn't set out to intentionally deceive, misconstrue or annoy
              When they began to offer freebies from other marketers to their subscribers.

              I'm willing to wager, they are building their lists with ad swaps.

              As Matt said earlier, when someone is putting on an additional 1000 subscriptions a day,
              They likely won't focus the majority of their efforts on the few who don't like it.

              It helps clean their lists with people who appreciate what they have to offer
              And aren't the equivalent of a hair-trigger with the spam button...

              (At the slightest indication the marketer is doing something they would not have
              Chosen to do personally.)

              After awhile, the distinction between what "I personally prefer"
              And *what works* begins to dawn.

              If you market to everyone, you market to no one right?

              Can't please everyone all the time, etc.

              If you systematically analyze each and every monetization leverage point
              And then demonize it because you see the advantage to the marketer,

              Perhaps it's time to evaluate why you have those types of hangups.

              If you want individual attention just the way "you" want it,
              Maybe it's time to look for some one on one personal coaching?

              Even then, everything won't be 'exactly' as you'd prefer.

              If it was, you wouldn't be on the lists or needing the coaching anymore anyway would you?

              That's not directed at anyone personally.

              Just a few observations in light of a few tens of millions of dollars in testing those kinds of things.
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              • Profile picture of the author mbacak
                Originally Posted by DougBarger View Post

                Did you know testing confirms
                capitalizing the First letter of each new line of copy

                Whether grammatically correct or not,

                Has proven to increase readability and scroll rates?
                That's good info. I'm actually going to have to test this.

                Jokenly - Daniel - if your on my list. unsubscribe now. j/k but t
                hanks for bringing this up and getting Doug to mention this.:-)
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        • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Cat,

          John (zeus66) brings this up at every opportunity. Doesn't matter that there's never been a single credible shred of proof that any significant number of these are deliberate. Or the fact that it damages your credibility with a noticeable fraction of readers. He's convinced, and that's the end of it.


          Paul
          EDIT: This isn't true about me, but I kinda let my emotions get the better of me in my first reply to this. Paul obviously mistook me for someone else who does rant about this a lot. An honest mistake. I should not have been as blunt as to call him a liar. My bad. We've hugged it out and even though he did try to cop a quick feel, we're solid.

          John
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    • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
      Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post



      I really hate this obvious ploy of sending out an email with an "accidental" bad link, then sending a follow-up a few minutes later saying, "Oops - here's the correct link, my bad." How smarmy can you get?
      Ha Hah, and I thought this was an honest mistake.

      Did not know this was a tactic, never worked on me, just simply deleted the "bad" email without reading it.

      The 13 th Warrior
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      • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
        Some tactics whether deceptive , greyhat, novice or trustworthy , obviously makes some money.

        But what counts to you , may not count to someone else.

        Folks with good , useful content and transparency of offers usually win me over.

        Maybe deceptive, meatmarket tactics may work in the short term, for quick cash.

        Tactics that have excellent transparency may still not work if the market or product is incorrect.

        The question becomes, how long can someone survive with and continue to make money with such tactics?

        Can someone be a long-time moneymaker with tactics that treat his customers or list like a diary cow, simply something to be milked with no care of how and what information is presented and the usefulness of such content to his list?

        I think if folks on your list is perceiving that you view them as a WHORE to be used then to be passed around to your friends(JV) and sucked dry, maybe it works for some and not for others.

        I don't think you want to give your list that feeling, because can you ever get that trust back...?

        Like catching your betrothed cheating on you , that trust is next to impossible to get back, or at least, nothing is going to be the same way ever again.

        I can tell once I get that feeling, I unsubscribe, and the bad ones show their tactics in 1-2 emails.

        Most like to be sold without being sold to, including me, hence, the principle of " Pre-Selling " being hammered home lately in most courses.

        The 13 th Warrior
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    • Profile picture of the author CliveG
      Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

      Let me add to the pet peeves instead of starting a new thread...

      I really hate this obvious ploy of sending out an email with an "accidental" bad link, then sending a follow-up a few minutes later saying, "Oops - here's the correct link, my bad." How smarmy can you get?

      ...
      I've never managed to get my head round this one. I'm not really sure what the aim is and I find it hard to believe that it works. Does it?

      All it does for me personally is to call into question the competence of the sender.
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  • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
    John, you must be really pissed off to start almost identical threads only two hours apart...
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author DogScout
      Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

      Your comments give the impression you're just looking for freebies, and don't even like to give your eMail address to get your freebies. Based on that, those list owners may not miss you.
      If i am already on someone's list and they send me blindly to another person's list, I would get the feeling I was not being treated with respect. In many cases, the person whose list I am on tells me it is a freebie that requires I sign up with the other person's list. And some of what that person is like, good & bad.

      Frank Kern comes to mind. He has never sent me blindly to a sign-up page without both telling me it was a sign up page and something about the person I would be signing on with. Today he told me the person I'd be signing up with was a weirdo among other things. I signed up to the other person's list. If it isn't all about a succession of selling emails, I'll probably stay signed up for a while. I dropped most everyone else (so many are half sales emails, they must think I am made of money). If nothing really sticks out as being exceptional, I'll leave that list, but I didn't sign up for a freebie and I went in with both eyes open. Transparency with your list (in my opinion) it is important to maintain trust.
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  • Profile picture of the author DogScout
    I have pop-ups that knock $20 off the price. The 1st thing that comes to mind is: The guy took a shot across my bow! If I was going to buy, I don't after that and I made a policy to never buy on the 1st look at a sales page, so I always see the discount pop-up if it is being used.

    If they used some other tactic like "I wasn't going to mention the unadvertised bonuses, but since you seem to be leaving..." or the like it would be different...i think
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  • Profile picture of the author Shawn Mason
    yeah don't hate on adswaps! JV list building ftw imo
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  • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
    Banned
    Originally Posted by John Cabral View Post

    Hi,

    I don't have a problem with joining another list if the info is goo but please just let me know that I have to sign up for this free item and don't have me thinking its a direct download.
    Did he ever tell you it would be a direct download? If not, I'd say you're the problem. You're the one who decided to make an assumption based on nothing. What's next, whining because he didn't tell you your free gift wouldn't arrive in the mail?
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    • Profile picture of the author John Cabral
      Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

      Did he ever tell you it would be a direct download? If not, I'd say you're the problem. You're the one who decided to make an assumption based on nothing. What's next, whining because he didn't tell you your free gift wouldn't arrive in the mail?
      Maybe you are ok with the practice but I am not. If I already subscribed to your list and you email me about getting a free whatever I am not expecting to sign up for Joe Blow's list. If I want to sign up to another list I will do it on my own.

      I am all for building your list. Hell I am doing that now.

      Why not say hey I have a free gift for you from so and so and that way I will know that I will most likely have to join that person's list.

      Those that do that I have no issue with...

      My post/rant was from a consumers/subscribers point of view and as a list builder you want your subscribers to be happy and stick around don't you?

      This has nothing to do with me being in IM'er not really sure what I am LOL besides an accountant who loves cumputers, internet and programming crap. or whether I am making money or not.

      Problem I see is too many over-hyping and being deceptive.
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris Pambos
      Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

      Did he ever tell you it would be a direct download? If not, I'd say you're the problem. You're the one who decided to make an assumption based on nothing. What's next, whining because he didn't tell you your free gift wouldn't arrive in the mail?
      I agree with Black Hat Cat, the fact that you start a thread whining about what you find wrong with email marketing is really a waste of time. To many individuals these days tend to whine in the IM discussion forum constantly that clogs the forum up.
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  • Profile picture of the author seobro
    They love to fill my inbox with junk. I usually give them a trash email account.

    OK my fave turn off is "It's free, but then - there is this fee"

    You see an ad yelling "FREE DVD"
    but there is a $5.95 shipping fee.
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    • Profile picture of the author mbacak
      But doesn't this line of thinking sort
      of demand that we ask a question?

      And isn't that question: "Well, how do you -- as a marketer
      yourself -- expect to ever sell things to anyone else?"

      I mean, if we're all here at this MARKETING FORUM and your
      main contribution is to just bitch about every marketing method
      known to humans... isn't there a disconnect there?

      Heck, I hear this:

      Originally Posted by seobro View Post

      OK my fave turn off is "It's free, but then - there is this fee"

      You see an ad yelling "FREE DVD"
      but there is a $5.95 shipping fee.
      Then I see things like this:

      Originally Posted by rockstarinlife View Post

      give them a free CD, DVD, or book etc and they just pay shipping $4.95-9.95 and enroll them in your membership site after the 14 day trial.
      In other words: isn't that kind of crazy?

      If you're a makerter, or want to become a successful marketer...
      why on earth would you be offended by marketing?

      I see tons of folks complaining about all these ways marketers market to them. It sort
      of goes like this (and yes, I have included my "editorial responses" after each "gripe"):

      "Don't upsell me!"(What was I thinking? Who am I to assume that you might
      want to know about things that will complement what you just bought, and then
      offer you those items at a discount off their regular price?)

      "Don't use 'forced continuity' on me!"(One of the most ridiculous complaints of all... there is
      NO SUCH THING as 'forced continuity' because you can always choose NOT TO BUY!)

      "Don't try to downsell me!" (Of course, the people who don't have the
      money to buy the MAIN offer but who are GRATEFUL for the lower-priced
      offer don't get considered by these complainers)

      "Don't give me anything for free where I have to pay shipping & handling!"
      (Right, sorry. What was I thinking? Why would I send you something worth
      a hundred dollars or more and ask you to just pay my freakin' shipping cost?)

      "Don't send me stuff in the mail..." (Let's forget the fact that you gave
      me your mailing address because you wanted me to send you stuff. And
      let's forget that all you have to do to stop receiving stuff is ask.)

      "Don't call me on the phone and pitch your crap." (Never mind that anyone we call
      has specifically requested that call... and can easily ask that we not call anymore.)

      "Don't pitch me from stage." (Sure. I mean, it's just criminal that I should
      teach you my best ideas for 75-80 minutes, and then take 5 minutes to let
      you know what further training I have available. Right? I guess I should do
      it for FREE. Heck, maybe I should pay YOU to listen.)

      "Don't email me your offers."(I'm sorry, I guess it's asking too much of anyone
      to click that big obvious link that says UNSUBSCRIBE. And I suppose it would be
      poor form of me to point out that you signed up for the list to start with. What
      did you THINK I was going to email you? Brownie recipes?)

      "Don't use 'scarcity tactics' on me." (What do you care? If you don't want it,
      what difference does it make to you? "Scarcity" should only have any meaning
      if you think something is valuable and don't want to miss the opportunity to
      get it. In which case... you'd want to know, right?)

      "Don't make me opt in." (Forgive me if this sounds rude... but I ain't makin'
      you do anything. If you want my free stuff, opt in. If you don't want it, then
      don't. Choice is all yours.)

      In other words...

      How DARE You Try And Sell Me Stuff.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
        Originally Posted by mbacak View Post


        And isn't that question: "Well, how do you -- as a marketer
        yourself -- expect to ever sell things to anyone else?"

        I mean, if we're all here at this MARKETING FORUM and your
        main contribution is to just bitch about every marketing method
        known to humans... isn't there a disconnect there?
        Love this. The way I see it, some Warriors can just keep bitching about all the marketing tactics that get used on them, while others will just o out and make money.

        Note: I'm not condoning the "Here's another freebie" tactic, but I'm also not saying that a marketer shouldn't use it - if it works.
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        • Profile picture of the author zerofill
          Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

          Love this. The way I see it, some Warriors can just keep bitching about all the marketing tactics that get used on them, while others will just o out and make money.
          Normally the ones bitching aren't making any money...why you think they are so pissed off? lol

          Hell I say use all the marketing tactics they want on me...I might find one I like that I never used lol.
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  • Profile picture of the author Roy Carter
    Matt has it right. We are all marketers here and heck, if you don't want to leave your details to get the free gift...then don't! In essence it's your CHOICE to either do that or not.

    It's also your CHOICE whether to unsubscribe or not.
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  • Profile picture of the author glide21
    Totally agree, one feels like Alice in wonderland, down the rabit hole again. I immediately unsubcribe. Furthermore, most freebies are not free as they steal your time and mostly contain a pile of junk at worst or a teaser at best.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alican Yenidogan
    Matt,

    Great post. Actually, those who bitch about marketing tactics that are used will eventually unsubscribe from that list. They are just trying to find a way to feel confortable about their desicion.

    Alican
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  • Profile picture of the author NightWriter
    I've been studying these lists - I've subscribed to probably 50 or 75 by now. I've unsubscribed to most. One of the tactics I hate most is that described by the OP. Equally despicable variations are the ones that tell you you're getting a freebie or a gift and then take you to their sales page - e-mail after e-mail - day after day.

    This has got to be a prime example of how not to do a newsletter - yet, these people seem to have their act together in other ways.

    What I do like and what I see very little of is this:

    1) People who really personalize their messages. You feel like you know them and they consistently give you good information - they clearly put effort into it.

    2) People who really do what they say they're going to do when they give you a "gift." I signed up for an affiliate program recently and the guy sent out a newsletter blast giving a gift of some PLR articles that pertained to that niche. I thought that was really nice - I remembered that guy and his product. I have an image of him in my mind now as a decent person.

    3) I tend to stick with highly credible sources that give good info. One of my favorites - geez, I can't remember his name, but you'll probably know if you've been in IM very long at all - he gives links occasionally to some Gary Halbert material. I gave him my P.O. Box in an opt-in at his site and he sent me the nicest report about Gary Halbert' "Frankenstein" copyrighting method. I stick with that guy because he has good info. and does what he says he's going to do.

    So, I've set up three opt-ins on my site so far and I've tried to keep all of this in mind. I like to use PLR content sometimes, but I usually alter it quite a bit - sometimes I end up re-writing it completely. On my writer's opt-in, I try to be instructional - give helpful reports, show them how to use PLR to learn to write... I'm on one writing list that actually isn't too bad - I constantly try to think how to make mine better and keep it at a beginner's level, which is where my book is.

    At my other ones I try to make up for any lack of expertise on my part by constantly giving stuff away - even useful software when I can find it.

    I read a lot about autoresponders and opt-in - but, honestly, I've learned the most from the things that I hate about most of the other lists I've joined and sometimes promptly unjoined!

    AK
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  • Profile picture of the author steve-wilkins
    As marketer's we should expect to also be marketed too. Best tip is to sort out your email box, go through and sort out which lists give you the best value and stay on them and unsubscribe to everyone else who doesnt offer similar value or who you find mis-leading or irritating.

    Let me tell you a fresh and up-to-date inbox is a marketer's heaven! I peronally hate it when I have over 50 unread messages, I feel I may be missing out on something or that my head is swelling and I just don't have the time to read them all.

    I was subscribed to 25 different marketer's, now only 4 and they are top marketer's who respect my inbox.

    Go get some feng-shui in your inbox (hope I spelt that right)

    Steve.
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  • Profile picture of the author JohnHuizinga
    I have trouble understanding why someone who spent a great deal of time and money building a list of emails, some of which might be unique to their list, would want to dilute the effectiveness of their marketing to that list by putting these people on the lists of 10s of other marketers just so they can add people to their list that are also on the lists of 10s of other marketers.
    I've been barraged with "free" offers in the past couple of weeks to the point that I'm now on a ton of lists and just don't have the time or the interest to sort through all of those emails. Especially since most of them aren't offering me any real value - just making pitch after pitch.
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  • Profile picture of the author JR Rich
    Well, I don't really have any problem with these marketing tactics being used on me - some of them actually make me smile and giggle to myself (Though I DO tend to giggle a lot to myself these days...must be the isolation)

    Here, on the WarriorForum, we tend to identify these tactics the moment they're used on us and naturally assume that they're being identified by Everyone who sees them...

    Trust me, they're not.

    Most people who are exposed to marketing tactics have no idea that they're being 'played' - this is simply how sales are done. It's how they've always been done to one degree or another.

    Selling is - and will always be - the skill or art of convincing someone that they desperately need something that they could probably live without.

    We try to be as ethical as possible but, without a certain amount of 'hype', nothing anywhere would ever get sold.

    It's the nature of the business.

    If the heat of the kitchen is too much, there is always that old "Nine-to-Five" job waiting!

    Regards,
    --JR Rich
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  • Profile picture of the author ScottTMc
    Im with you on this, as a curious internet marketer i like to sign up to lists, i get ideas of hwat i like and can include in my own emails or as an example youve pointed out here the things that get on my nervs from others lists.

    Think that if you would like to recieve the email youve sent then its most likely going to be a good email that your list will enjoy
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    lol @ the anti-rant ranting.
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  • Profile picture of the author Antony103
    i have actually recently unsubscribed from 3-4 people due to annoying and constant emails to subscribe to other ppls list.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      In the words of one much-loved/maybe-even-more-hated radio host, "words mean things."

      I don't get too upset if someone pitches me something "free", and it costs me an opt-in. There's enough ambiguity in the word 'free' that I can allow for 'no money exchanged' as the definition.

      "Gift", on the other hand, has an entirely different meaning - at least to me. It means something freely given, not a barter arrangement. When someone offers me a gift, I don't expect to trade anything for it. When they ask, it breaches the idea of giving.

      There are a few emailers that have my number. They do send me pitches for other peoples' lists, and I do check them out and opt in more often than not. What's their secret? They deal the cards face up.

      They don't tell me that they managed to finagle a deal out of their close, personal friend. They tell me that I can get some offer because a colleague is launching a new project.

      They don't tell me it's a gift to thank me for being on the list. They tell me they think it's worthwhile, and why. They tell me that there's an opt-in involved. I decide if the exchange is worthwhile for me. A square deal all around.

      Basically, they treat me like a person of value, not like a mark in a carnival midway.

      On a side note, it's funny how the people whining about "marketers bitching about marketing" are often using the practice being criticized.

      If your ears are burning, maybe they are talking about you...
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  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    It amuses me when people paint all rants with a broad brush or imply that the ranter is just a bitter failure lashing out at his/her "betters." Obviously (well, it should be obvious, at least), some rants have a solid basis in reality and help others a) avoid the culprits and/or b) learn to market their wares in a more ethical manner.

    I've noticed how a lot of these threads devolve in just such a manner. It's fascinating. When I read someone say it must just be a failed marketer getting his envy on, my thought is always that maybe the one saying that is the failure. Perhaps they had to resort to smarmy tactics to achieve a level of success. Funny how the logic plays both ways.

    John
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    • Profile picture of the author John Cabral
      Hey Paul I just realized you live where my dad was born. How's the weather up there. Hot and humidy and raing down here in lovely south florida. :-)
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Hey Paul I just realized you live where my dad was born. How's the weather up there. Hot and humidy and raing down here in lovely south florida. :-)
        Typically beautiful PA fall. Supposed to get down to 56 tonight. Leaves turned, and it looks like Dog's country.


        Paul
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        Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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  • Profile picture of the author Folusho Orokunle
    WOW!!!! I tell my wife that I hate reality TV but every time she watches it I get sucked in :-)

    This is "REALITY INTERNET MARKETER" at it's best.

    The only wood I'm gonna add to the fire is this:

    Some marketers are only concerned with making money....

    Some marketers are concerned with making money and their integrity while making money....

    Some marketers are scared to make lots of money but love trashing other marketing techniques....

    Some marketers don't care how much they make they're just happy with what they make....

    Some marketers are just lying scum bags and would lie to their wives if it meant they could make an extra 100k

    Some marketers are naive but once they find out they don't have to be like the marketers that treat everyone like a number and are in some fantasy land that makes them think that because they've made millions "if must be right".....They're free now to do business the way "they like"....

    Point is:

    Regardless of the category your in.......SOMEONE WILL STILL COMPLAIN!!!!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author John Cabral
    Here is an example that I personally find annoying. It's my opinion as a consumer/subcriber and may not be yours which is ok.

    Hey John,

    Thank you for being a loyal subscriber, here's your download.

    http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=7xWVJ&m=1aq (link is to join a giveaway site which has been disabled by me)

    Enjoy,

    XXXX XXXXXX

    Now why couldn't they just say here is a link to a giveaway site with some great products that you may enjoy..... instead of the cloak and dagger promoting their affiliate link to giveaway site...
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  • Profile picture of the author actionplanbiz
    They should surprise bonus straight to download page (should have value). and offer other the free stuff that they need to opt in there.
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  • Profile picture of the author tommygunn
    Thanks for the tip, I think a lot of people would appreciate more transparency and honesty. All in all, I think this will keep your subscribers around longer and build their trust in you/your products. Then again, this is just another marketing tactic .
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  • Profile picture of the author John Cabral
    Here is another deceptive email and one I unsubscribed ASAP Link goes to an affiliate page for the Cell Cash System. Maybe this is why I am not successful online as I don't use all these B.S. tactics being used and taught to us. Guess the only way to make money online is to use them.

    Funny I already got multiple copies from others.... Guess they all learned from the same source.


    Hey John,

    I sent you an incredibly important email yesterday, but
    I'm not sure if you got it.

    <<<<http://clicks.aweber.com/y/blahblahblah>>>>>

    I've been having some trouble with my email lately...

    Anyway, I wanted to make sure that you got to see
    this, it's brand new for you, just came out yesterday.

    <<<<http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/blahblahblah>>>>>>

    Go now, read the material (takes 4 minutes) and get your
    username and password sent to you.

    There're some really killer videos on the page that
    you don't want to miss.

    Talk soon,

    Name withheld

    <<<<<http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=CYblahblahblah>>>
    Signature

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    • Profile picture of the author Gary Smith
      I think the single biggest difference between 'good' lists and 'bad' lists bears a direct relationship to the goal of the list owners.

      Some marketers want to build a business and others just want to make money. I could probably write a couple of pages from what I've learned over the past 4 or 5 years but I think most of it has already been said in this thread. I was on 30 or 40 lists at one stage and I unsubscribed from nearly all of them. Deceptive marketing techniques, copy and paste sale pitches and hollow recommendations...as someone else said... it all starts to look a bit desperate.
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  • Profile picture of the author reikejan
    Newbie to the list here - with a question. If I offer a free report/something, don't you assume you would have to opt in? How else do I capture emails to build my list?

    I offer a free report (real estate stuff) that then goes to an upsell. Is this offensive to you? Do I have to tell you in my email that 1) you have to opt in to get the free report and 2) once you do that, you will be redirected to an upsell page? If I don't disclose this to you, will you be offended?

    Another problem I have is that I've been involved in outside sales for years and find I'm good at it. But.... the thing that seems to make me good at it is the fact that I can "allow" the buyer to make the buying decision. They don't feel any pressure from me, so they not only relax around me, they think I'm really great, trustworthy, etc., and they buy. SO - how do I transport that face-to-face patience and trustworthiness to the sales page? I keep hearing urgency and scarcity (and it works on me), but isn't there some way to bring that soft-sell approach that is so effective to IM? How is what I want to know.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Cabral
      Originally Posted by reikejan View Post

      Newbie to the list here - with a question. If I offer a free report/something, don't you assume you would have to opt in? How else do I capture emails to build my list?
      Yes and No. If I am already on your list then No I don't expect to signup for your free report. It should be a direct download. You can show me other offers on that page or an OTO. Perfectly cool with me.

      But no if I am on your list and you tell me to go download a free report etc and its a page bto signup then I will be gone. I may signup if other person has something I may want but I guarantee I will be gone from your list.
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    • Profile picture of the author JR Rich
      Originally Posted by reikejan View Post

      Newbie to the list here - with a question. If I offer a free report/something, don't you assume you would have to opt in? How else do I capture emails to build my list?

      I offer a free report (real estate stuff) that then goes to an upsell. Is this offensive to you? Do I have to tell you in my email that 1) you have to opt in to get the free report and 2) once you do that, you will be redirected to an upsell page? If I don't disclose this to you, will you be offended?

      Another problem I have is that I've been involved in outside sales for years and find I'm good at it. But.... the thing that seems to make me good at it is the fact that I can "allow" the buyer to make the buying decision. They don't feel any pressure from me, so they not only relax around me, they think I'm really great, trustworthy, etc., and they buy. SO - how do I transport that face-to-face patience and trustworthiness to the sales page? I keep hearing urgency and scarcity (and it works on me), but isn't there some way to bring that soft-sell approach that is so effective to IM? How is what I want to know.
      Offensive? Nahhh!

      This particular thread about unsavory marketing tactics is of concern only to those of us who might recognize them as such. The vast majority of your chosen niche would never detect them (probably).

      Yes, you need to build your list and Yes, you will be offering them some valuable freebie to entice them to do so. This approach is completely ethical and necessary.

      It's what happens after you have them as subscribers that the 'ol rubber meets the road!

      Having an upsell immediately following the sign-up is perfectly okay -- but you'll want to make it a soft-sell. Don't push it too hard - give the subscriber some time to get to know you and to 'settle-in" to the list first.

      Unfortunately, many list owners use their lists as nothing more than affiliate 'marks' and never take the time or effort to develop a rapport. To these guys, a list is nothing more than a funnel ... subscribers in one end, unsubscribers out the other and, as long as they have more people coming into it than leave it, they're happy campers!

      I believe that if you take the time to build a true relationship with your subscribers, you'll make far more money at the end of the day.

      "The more you give-away, the more you will receive" -- Very Eastern Philosophy, that!

      Regards,
      --JR Rich
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  • Profile picture of the author slovatt
    Everything you buy from a sales person comes with additional options that you never originally ask for. Right from extended warranties to would you like fries with that. This is common business practice everywhere, not just online.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Cabral
      Originally Posted by slovatt View Post

      Everything you buy from a sales person comes with additional options that you never originally ask for. Right from extended warranties to would you like fries with that. This is common business practice everywhere, not just online.
      I disagree with you as they are not using deceptive tactics to get you to buy. If I go to BK and they try to get me to buy something else they are not using trickery to get me to buy.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by reikejan View Post

        Newbie to the list here - with a question. If I offer a free report/something, don't you assume you would have to opt in? How else do I capture emails to build my list?

        I offer a free report (real estate stuff) that then goes to an upsell. Is this offensive to you? Do I have to tell you in my email that 1) you have to opt in to get the free report and 2) once you do that, you will be redirected to an upsell page? If I don't disclose this to you, will you be offended?
        Purely from my personal perspective, it depends on HOW you make the offer. Tell me I can get your report by going to a page, and I pretty much expect a squeeze page. Tell me you have a gift for me, and I expect no strings attached - including an opt-in.

        As far as the upsell, it depends on the execution. If you make a straight up offer, I'll take it at face value and either buy it or not. Try to apply pressure, or insult me, and then yes, I will be offended.

        For example, when you make your upsell, if you tell me I'm being offered a special deal because I've indicated interest in what you sell and you already have my attention (thus saving the cost of marketing to me again), we're cool.

        Make me click one of those "Yes, I realize I'm a moron for passing up your offer, and I know I'll die broke and broken because of it, but I'm just an idiot freebie hunter who wants to rob your kids of their future" links and not only will I be offended, I won't bother with your freebie. I'll just go back and unsubscribe immediately.

        Bottom line, treat me with respect, and we have a chance of doing business. Insult me, and you're dead to me.
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        • Profile picture of the author Alminc
          Being involved in this internet marketing game for a couple
          of years, I do not expect anything else in other marketers'
          emails but all imaginable tricks to make me sign up or purchase.

          Now there are better constructed emails and those really bad ones.
          I save the better ones in a special folder on my hard drive
          to study them and reverse engineer them for my own email
          marketing. The bad ones are deleted and I eventually unsubscribe
          from such lists.
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          No links :)
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  • Profile picture of the author blanchi
    Yep, that's why there's that convenient "unsubscribe" link. I'm never afraid to use it when I get e-mails like those. Sadly, I think the list owner expects some kind of attrition (I would and I confess to not being all that good/attentive when it comes to my list!).
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  • Profile picture of the author John Cabral
    What I am learning is that it seems that most are after the quick buck and not looking long term as far as list building and developing lasting followers.

    To me I see it as short term and as soon as I see it done I go straight to the unsubscribe link.

    I have no issue with you promoting a product to me but please don't insult my intelligence with these underhanded tricks.

    You will only end up losing me as a subscriber.
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    I like to mess around with software programming.

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  • Profile picture of the author reikejan
    Thanks for these comments - they make tons of sense (and are pretty obvious).
    Let me see if I understand correctly
    1. You are new to me. You get to my opt-in page for the free report and you opt in.
    2. You are redirected to a page that says thanks, your report will arrive shortly. In the meantime, have a look at this cool offer (or something like that).
    3. You are redirected to an upsell page. No threats or inducements, simply telling you about the product and giving you the chance to buy. No implications on your personality or your family - just buy or not.
    4. You are not offended because of this. Right?
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    • Profile picture of the author John Cabral
      Originally Posted by reikejan View Post

      Thanks for these comments - they make tons of sense (and are pretty obvious).
      Let me see if I understand correctly
      1. You are new to me. You get to my opt-in page for the free report and you opt in.
      2. You are redirected to a page that says thanks, your report will arrive shortly. In the meantime, have a look at this cool offer (or something like that).
      3. You are redirected to an upsell page. No threats or inducements, simply telling you about the product and giving you the chance to buy. No implications on your personality or your family - just buy or not.
      4. You are not offended because of this. Right?
      I would not be offended with that as you are not trying to be sneaky or underhanded. I expect you to try to sell me something sooner or later. After all that is why we get involved in IM.

      I just don't feel you need to restort to trickery to do it.

      Treat your list members with respect and they will follow you for a long like.

      Instead of using the hey here is you free gift download which really is just an optin page to someone's else list, say hey I came across xyz that I think you mind be interested in.

      I don't find it all that complicated.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Cabral
    Those of you who seem to view this post as rant are probably engaging in the very same techniques.

    Purpose of post was to point out how list owner can be hurting themselves using trickery tactics.

    In the long run I see it doing more harm than good. What good is it to build your list only to have the masses unsubscribe and you constantly scrambling to add new subscribers. Seem counterproductive to me. But then again its my opinion and you don't have to agree with it.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by reikejan View Post

      Thanks for these comments - they make tons of sense (and are pretty obvious).
      Let me see if I understand correctly
      1. You are new to me. You get to my opt-in page for the free report and you opt in.
      2. You are redirected to a page that says thanks, your report will arrive shortly. In the meantime, have a look at this cool offer (or something like that).
      3. You are redirected to an upsell page. No threats or inducements, simply telling you about the product and giving you the chance to buy. No implications on your personality or your family - just buy or not.
      4. You are not offended because of this. Right?
      For me, personally, that is correct.
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    • Profile picture of the author mbacak
      Originally Posted by John Cabral View Post

      Those of you who seem to view this post as rant are probably engaging in the very same techniques.

      Purpose of post was to point out how list owner can be hurting themselves using trickery tactics.

      In the long run I see it doing more harm than good. What good is it to build your list only to have the masses unsubscribe and you constantly scrambling to add new subscribers. Seem counterproductive to me. But then again its my opinion and you don't have to agree with it.
      Like I said I totally see your opinion on that
      email, heck I probably sent it out to my list.

      So, you have me there.

      Here's some thoughts:

      I think alot of times people make chooses via lead flow.

      Less lead flow - more picky.
      more leads - less picky.

      Oh, course this is a general statment. But, think about this.

      If you are getting 1,000's of leads a day would losing a few
      hundred a day really be a bother? If you know that you can
      send an email and get X amount of clicks on AVG. and know
      that the email that you send will generate X dollars per click.

      If you just look at the numbers - it might just make sense.

      Not saying this thinking is right or wrong. Everyone
      has different business models.
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      • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
        Banned
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        • Profile picture of the author mbacak
          Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

          Now you're making good sense - and validating the method as viable IF, you're testing, tracking and proving the data supports it. And you added a solid qualifier - new leads.

          I'd hazard a guess though that more often than not, few marketers really test it - they just do it because others say it works. And they are not just applying it to new leads - they're applying it to existing lists without segregating known buyers, etc.
          It really sucks that many people don't test.

          Probably, one of the biggest I made in my business early on.
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          • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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            • Profile picture of the author mbacak
              Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

              And I think it's probably the underlying reason for John's OP. I don't sign up to many lists (maybe 1 or 2 here and there in IM), but I get hammered with stuff like this a lot. .
              I totally get that.

              I have found there are 3 reasons why I mail:

              MAIN reason --> 1. Make money - the numbers
              2. Political - you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.
              (Then your tied into mailing whatever they give you) If it works I mail again.
              3. Sympathy - feel bad for them or want to help out.
              4. Pain in the ass - They bug the hell out of you so much that you mail so they just shut up.
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  • Profile picture of the author mbacak
    Originally Posted by John Cabral View Post

    Here is another deceptive email
    I do totally see your point on that email.

    Are you really not making that much or you just B.S.ing?
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  • Profile picture of the author ktmurf
    I've been noticing a few of the opt ins that I get have been using stuff like "Notification of Paypal payment" blah blah blah.

    Get me all excited and then BAM! Let me down with your Tom-foolery!
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  • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
    Agreed with Matt on pretty much all his points. I don't have a problem being marketed to at all, if you want something for free, then you have to give your e-mail address, no big deal and god forbid as Matt says, you get upsold to etc etc, I also don't get if a popup appears and offers a trial offer of the product etc, I can not for the life of me understand why people get their knickers in a twist over something like that.

    I do however object to the techniques which are clearly deceptive in nature, especially the "Oh I'm sorry I made a mistake in my email " crap.

    In other words, I blasted you once, now I'll blast you again under the false pretense that I didn't describe the offer correctly or whatever other total BS excuse they come up with.

    I would have zero issue if a second e-mail came in which was upfront and said something more like "Hey Simon, incase you missed my first email in the inbox mayhem, I just wanted to give you a last opportunity to grab XYZ as I'm taking it off the market tommorow".

    Look it's a double up , but at least it's honest and upfront rather than an insult to my intelligence.

    I have no issue with any level of marketing as long as it's upfront .
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  • Profile picture of the author mbacak
    But - the real problem is and why everyone gets the same emails
    all the time is because these famous words "Just give me your best
    email and subject line that converts the best - and I'll send it out"

    I'm guilty on that one.
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    • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
      Originally Posted by mbacak View Post

      But - the real problem is and why everyone gets the same emails
      all the time is because these famous words "Just give me your best
      email and subject line that converts the best - and I'll send it out"

      I'm guilty on that one.
      E-mail swipe files,. the scourge of spam and peed of list subscribers.

      I never send them out, EVER, I do however plageurise the hell out of them , use my experience to pull out the benefits, the calls to action, the tone to suit the market etc but I wrap that in my own verbiage, and always always change the subject line.

      Takes normally 25 minutes to adapt a winning swipe file, can't bear sending something out as me that clearly isn't from me, did it once and you look like a fool when your subscribers email you back to tell you that somebody "stole your -email" ...
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      • Profile picture of the author mbacak
        Originally Posted by SimonHarrison View Post

        I never send them out, EVER, I do however plageurise the hell out of them , use my experience to pull out the benefits, the calls to action, the tone to suit the market etc but I wrap that in my own verbiage, and always always change the subject line.

        Takes normally 25 minutes to adapt a winning swipe file, can't bear sending something out as me that clearly isn't from me, did it once and you look like a fool when your subscribers email you back to tell you that somebody "stole your -email" ...
        Great suggestion. Although, depending on how you gained the
        email list and how incestuous the list is - if done properly especially
        on a launch, having the same emails go out creates social proof.

        Overall - I agree with ya.
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  • Profile picture of the author AndyBlackSEO
    I have only participated in one adswap before. Although this may be a common practice in which to build your list, if used excessively you will lose your true readers and replace then with an army of subscribers who you kas of yet' not connected with. It appears to me that some people do adswap after adswap. This to me makes me assume that subscribers come and go without any core followers remaining on your list.

    Sometimes its best to let your list grow naturally whilst focusing your efforts on connecting with the subscribers that you already have.

    Just my two cents.
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