Is All That Fluff Really Necessary?

23 replies
I mean, we see it in guides, videos, courses, sales letters. But is it really necessary?

Do we really need to know the science, history, philosophy behind everything we're being taught?

You can argue sales letters convert better with long copy but what about the actual products, do they really need filler text?

I've read a few ebooks recently (good ones too) but the amount of fluff in them was unbelievable. I found myself getting bored before even getting to the main part. And the main part was all fluffed up as well. 200 pages with 75% fluff... Now that's mind numbing.

People may like fluff and I'm not knocking it, I'm just saying...

Thanks,
Adam
#fluff
  • Profile picture of the author Sirago
    Personally, all the fluff annoys me. When I read a sales letter, most of the time I got to their page based on a recommendation... I'll read the first paragraph or so to make sure it actually does what I want and then I skip down to the price.

    I think it's stupid when people put 30 testimonials or keep repeating how wonderful their product is.
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  • Profile picture of the author thatgirlJ
    Fluff exists in many places Some of the supposed greatest writers of all time tend to be very, very long-winded, saying the same thing over and over again.

    I guess the answer of whether it needs to be there comes down to the audience. There are many learning styles, and some people need to have information told to them in a variety of ways before they truly get it. Some audiences need to know the history, and the "reason why" before the information sinks in and motivates them.

    In other cases, the author could say things a lot more concisely, and get the point across a lot better. Seth Godin is a master at doing this

    I think all product creators should take a hard look at who their audience is, and whether saying the same thing with fewer words would serve them better.

    Also, adding fluff just to make the word count higher, or the product appear larger is always a no-no
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    • Profile picture of the author Adam Carn
      Originally Posted by Jenn Dize View Post

      I guess the answer of whether it needs to be there comes down to the audience. There are many learning styles, and some people need to have information told to them in a variety of ways before they truly get it. Some audiences need to know the history, and the "reason why" before the information sinks in and motivates them.
      You're right, it depends on the audience and whether they need all the extra information to help them to make a decision or take action.

      Thanks,
      Adam
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    • Profile picture of the author TimGross
      Originally Posted by Jenn Dize View Post

      adding fluff just to make the word count higher, or the product appear larger is always a no-no
      Regarding the idea that it's always a "no-no" to add more to an info-product than the short-version nuts and bolts, that evaluation varies widely from customer to customer.

      As an info-marketer, if you want to add the most value, do this:

      1) Create a short-version synopsis that highlights all the key elements, in a format that a pro customer who doesn't want to waste time can learn what they need quickly.

      2) Add extra info going into more detail for people who need more help, so those who can't jump from step 1 to step 10 have a roadmap of how to fill in the gaps of their own personal knowledge.

      I'm pasting in a previous blog post I wrote on the subject:

      Newbies Want Quantity, Pros Want Quality

      People trying to create information/training products often ask things like "How long should my ebook be?"

      That reminds me of:

      Q: How long should your legs be?
      A: Long enough to touch the ground

      There is no right or wrong answer, but here's a generalization depending on who you're marketing to:

      Newbies often don't appreciate the value of information. No matter what they're sold, if they don't get a LOT of it, some will feel they were shorted and it could affect your refund rate.

      The more experienced tend to appreciate specific, valuable info without the fluff.

      (I personally despise enormous font size with enormous margins double-spaced to use up more pages. It's harder to read, harder to take in, and it turns me off.)

      It's kind of like restaurant portion size: In the U.S., it's widely known that many restaurants give oversized portions, the customers overeat, it's bad for them, and it makes them feel like crap when they're done.

      But the alternative is to reduce portion size, which causes some patrons to feel like they paid too much for what they got which could hurt repeat business (even though what they ate was exactly what they should eat for a meal and they left with a full stomach, just not feeling sick).
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      • Profile picture of the author thatgirlJ
        Originally Posted by TimGross View Post

        Regarding the idea that it's always a "no-no" to add more to an info-product than the short-version nuts and bolts, that evaluation varies widely from customer to customer.
        Hi Tim,

        I agree with you My comment at the end of my post was RE adding fluff just to add to the word count, etc. If it doesn't add value, it doesn't matter how long it is.

        Aggressor,

        Excellent post! I heard that Kevin Riley gave some people an ah-ha moment at the Warrior seminar when he was talking about pinpointing a problem for a group of people, and solving that one problem really, really well with your product for that group. (This is not an exact phrasing, since I unfortunately could not be at the event )
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
    I have often thought that as well. The problem is that not everyone is in the same spot at the same time.

    I've had the opposite happen where an author assumes I know more than I do and starts right off with the meat of the subject. Quickly I was lost.

    This can be seen in help files for software progams. ( the quickest example I can think of and not directly related)

    I look up: Change fonts

    The answers is something like. Go to the font menu and choose the font drop down.

    But... They don't tell me the keystroke to get to the font menu and I can't seem to find it. If they assumed no one knew anything ( which help files should do ) they would have written it like:

    Go to the font menu ( CNTL F) and choose the font drop down.
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    Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm. -Winston Churchill

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  • Profile picture of the author Aggressor
    If the signal to noise ratio is high (i.e. lots of fluff) that person has just burned all hope of future sales.

    So many people are practically selling their souls to get the first sale --- when really all you have to do is enter the conversation going on in your target markets head.

    Stop trying to casually please everyone, and spectacularly please someone. Pick a demographic within a niche and offer needle point advice.

    You build rapid fans fast, you don't need to fill up things with acres of filler text, and they will buy from you again and again (assuming you have a market with backend potential).
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    • Profile picture of the author Killer Joe
      Originally Posted by Aggressor View Post

      Stop trying to casually please everyone, and spectacularly please someone.
      Wow, that's a great line. I would add that to my sig if I were you.

      KJ
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    • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
      Originally Posted by Aggressor View Post

      If the signal to noise ratio is high (i.e. lots of fluff) that person has just burned all hope of future sales.

      So many people are practically selling their souls to get the first sale --- when really all you have to do is enter the conversation going on in your target markets head.

      Stop trying to casually please everyone, and spectacularly please someone. Pick a demographic within a niche and offer needle point advice.

      You build rapid fans fast, you don't need to fill up things with acres of filler text, and they will buy from you again and again (assuming you have a market with backend potential).
      Wow.... I quickly read your signature file and thought it said "Turkey Product Launch Manager"
      Signature

      Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm. -Winston Churchill

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      • Profile picture of the author TimGross
        Originally Posted by Scott Ames View Post

        Wow.... I quickly read your signature file and thought it said "Turkey Product Launch Manager"
        I always shake my head when I see the CBScares.com URL promotions on CBS commercials.

        They're trying to convince me that they care, and maybe it would fly right before Halloween, but to me that's too scary of a URL to promote, if you catch my drift.
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      • Profile picture of the author Aggressor
        Originally Posted by Scott Ames View Post

        Wow.... I quickly read your signature file and thought it said "Turkey Product Launch Manager"
        Many people have said that haha!
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  • Profile picture of the author Christophe Young
    Personally, I don't like fluff and I went light on it in my own ebook. I've never had a complaint.

    I once bought an ebook that had something like 20 pages of quotes.. like inspirational quotes.

    After finishing the book I was very uninspired.
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  • Profile picture of the author Silas Hart
    I felt almost like I had to insert "fluff" to help get the point across as to why my product was a good purchase, even though I already had their money, I just didn't want someone to do an instant refund or something. My latest eBook when typed "to the point" with the specific information and methods to achieving the goal was only about 30 pages. I felt uncomfortable selling something with so little pages. Once I put in some graphics, organized the text a little better, and did things like include little chapter number logo's, it jumped to about 45 pages. I still felt uncomfortable, which is when I put in the real fluff. The "extra fluff" was explaining why I made the ebook, my philosophy on the subject, some of the history, some more statistics, etc, it bumped up to about 50 pages. Now I didn't feel so bad. I wanted to sell a little more "quantity" with my "quality."

    Now keep in mind, I've bought some 20 page quality eBooks from here, very to the point, but the font was Huge! The font set on size 12 or something would have made the eBook into probably 10 pages. My eBook had size 14 font, which is what I find a good size for everyone on paper.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
    Maybe it's just a trend. Maybe it goes away in a couple months.

    P.S.: Hope you guys hate fluff at least for a couple weeks more - at least till I launch my new offline report.

    It's damn direct. You can call it the opposite of fluffy.
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    People make good money selling to the rich. But the rich got rich selling to the masses.
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  • Profile picture of the author Adam Carn
    Fluff in sales copy is understandable (even though it can be annoying). It's to reiterate a message to the consumer so they can make an educated purchase. But in my opinion fluff in the actual product is not alway necessary. Yes some target markets may perfer it but I doubt they'd mind pure valuable content instead.

    A large course or a 200 page guide can be perceived as good value for money but that's no excuse for fluff, just make 200 pages of pure, straight to the point, valuable content if you're feeling ambitious/generous.

    Thanks,
    Adam
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan

    It's a sign of poor writing. Truth is, many people are not great writers. Putting together short and compelling copy is an art.
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    I'm all about that bass.

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  • Profile picture of the author Adam Carn
    Jason, now that kind of fluff doesn't look too bad...

    Adam
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Adam, here is the problem, and while I know many people here will say, "Oh
      no Steve, you're wrong", as a product creator, I know the truth. I've seen
      it all.

      Give somebody a 5 page PDF with a killer tactic that can easily make them
      $3,000 a month, charge them $47 for it and they'll ask for a refund.

      Give somebody that same tactic with 30 pages of filler and charge the same
      $47 and they'll say it's gold.

      Sadly, way too many people who buy informational products equate value
      to the number of pages the product contains.

      I know...tons of people will right now come posting to tell me that I'm wrong,
      that they'd love to have a 5 page book with a tactic that will make
      them $3,000 a month.

      I know better.

      And that's why, sadly, there is a lot of fluff in products.

      What I do, and I'm nuts for doing this, is create products with the
      "required" page count but nothing but content.

      Problem is, that much content is worth much more than I could charge
      for it. So I end up having to charge the same price that other people
      charge for half the content. I work twice as hard for the same income.

      Not many people will do that.

      I'd love to just put together a simple 5 step process that I know would
      easily make somebody 3K a month, and charge what the info is worth.

      If I did...my refund percentage would be through the roof.

      THAT is the reality Adam.

      And that is why you find what you find in ebooks.

      When customers can start to recognize the value of a product NOT based
      on page count, this problem will stop.

      Until that day comes (don't hold your breath) expect things to stay as
      they are.
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      • Profile picture of the author Adam Carn
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Adam, here is the problem, and while I know many people here will say, "Oh
        no Steve, you're wrong", as a product creator, I know the truth. I've seen
        it all.
        It's ok that's their opinion, you can say what you like

        Give somebody a 5 page PDF with a killer tactic that can easily make them
        $3,000 a month, charge them $47 for it and they'll ask for a refund.

        Give somebody that same tactic with 30 pages of filler and charge the same
        $47 and they'll say it's gold.
        I do agree with you, many people see more pages as more value.

        What I do, and I'm nuts for doing this, is create products with the
        "required" page count but nothing but content.

        Problem is, that much content is worth much more than I could charge
        for it. So I end up having to charge the same price that other people
        charge for half the content. I work twice as hard for the same income.

        Not many people will do that.
        That's why we all love you, the quality stuff you come up with speaks for itself. Your hard work really does show.

        When customers can start to recognize the value of a product NOT based
        on page count, this problem will stop.

        Until that day comes (don't hold your breath) expect things to stay as
        they are.
        True, fluff doesn't really bother me too much usually but some stuff out there just goes overboard with filler text. So I was just wondering what you guys and gals thought about it.

        Thanks,
        Adam
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Adam Carn View Post

          True, fluff doesn't really bother me too much usually but some stuff out there just goes overboard with filler text. So I was just wondering what you guys and gals thought about it.

          Thanks,
          Adam
          What do I think about it?

          I hate it.

          I wish they'd just get to the freaking point and tell me what I need to
          know.

          But then there is a different problem...levels of fluff.

          A lot of products have, what I call, elementary fluff.

          In other words, it's actual content but it's so basic that only the
          absolute "starting from scratch" newbie needs it. I don't mind this in a
          beginner book, but in a book that teaches a very specific advanced
          tactic, that elementary fluff is pointless.

          Why?

          1. If it's needed, then the material itself is going to be too advanced for
          the new person to follow anyway.

          2. If it's not needed, then don't put it in there.

          In other words, too many people either:

          1. Try to add way too advanced material into a beginner book

          or

          2. Include beginner material in an advanced book, targeted to advanced
          marketers, which is just not needed.

          IMO, this is one of the biggest problems product creators have. They
          honestly don't know what to put in their products because they either
          don't know the difference between advanced and beginner OR they don't
          think it matters.

          When people ask me to review products, one of the first things I look for
          is somebody who's trying to shove 10 pounds of bologna into a 5 pound
          bag.

          I hate those books. You only end up confusing people...with all the content.

          And then you toss in all the "fluff" fluff and you have a total nightmare
          on your hands.

          Truth is, many product creators know nothing about how to create a
          quality product.

          And it shows...in spades.
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          • Profile picture of the author Elmer Hurlstone
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            When people ask me to review products, one of the first things I look for
            is somebody who's trying to shove 10 pounds of bologna into a 5 pound
            bag.
            Steve,

            Down here, we Southern boys used to call that a "blivit bag".

            If I recall correctly the "filling" was a bit different to bologna...

            You're totally correct about writing for a specific market. You can't be all things to all people.


            Elmer
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  • Profile picture of the author Elmer Hurlstone
    Originally Posted by Adam Carn View Post

    But is it really necessary?

    Do we really need to know the science, history, philosophy behind everything we're being taught?
    <snip>
    People may like fluff and I'm not knocking it, I'm just saying...

    Thanks,
    Adam
    Perhaps defining "fluff" would be helpful?

    No, I don't need to know about Aunt Mary's gall bladder. And I'm a guy who really likes the back story.

    Knowing some of the science, history and philosophy behind a method, process or system we're learning supplies validation and credibility.

    Knowing why and how something works may help you apply those "why's and wherefore's" to something else.

    Some of those things should be included in tutorials. Not all, but some.

    We should be suspicious of any product not backed up with fact. Supposition is fine--if you're Colombo.

    Maria Veloso famously answered the question of length when asked about copy length.

    Her response is applicable to other types of writing:

    "Copy is like a woman's skirt. It should be short enough to be interesting and long enough to cover the essentials."

    Elmer
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  • Profile picture of the author RentItNow
    Fluff is ok if it services or entertains the reader. For example, I love someone stating a principle then showing me examples of it; real world hardcore samples. I can read that all day as it really reinforces the lesson.

    On the other side of this when a telemarketer, door to door sales person or even boyscout tries to give me a 5 minute pitch I stop them first 10 seconds and say, "GET TO THE POINT! WHAT ARE YOU SELLING? HOW WILL IT BENEFIT ME? HOW MUCH?"
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    I have no agenda but to help those in the same situation. This I feel will pay the bills.
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