[Jeffery]

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

I fear that the only way for a local populace to take this seriously is to get hit hard and see, up close and in person, the devestation caused. Then you won't see so much bellyaching over wearing masks and shutting down social venues and such.

Agreed.

IMO, Secondary to that would be the unemployed and underemployed owed to the virus. In my experience, those folks take it very seriously and do not criticize the gov't or any entity for mandatory public actions.

[perryny]

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

I fear that the only way for a local populace to take this seriously is to get hit hard and see, up close and in person, the devestation caused. Then you won't see so much bellyaching over wearing masks and shutting down social venues and such.

What you're saying sounds logical. But then, Disney World.

Texas hospitals are sending people home to die (https://www.star-telegram.com/news/c...244443257.html), but they seem intent on opening up schools next month.

It really doesn't appear getting hit hard will be the catalyst for change.

[perryny]

Originally Posted by Kay King

Masks are mandatory where I live - but what I hear people asking is this: If the masks 'work' - are the numbers going down in area where masks are required? Don't know.

Yes we do.

[Jeffery]

Originally Posted by perryny

What you're saying sounds logical. But then, Disney World.

In every sense of the word "logical" he is right.. it is logical.

Disney World is a business and made a business decision. Not the same type of logic that Dan is speaking to.

Originally Posted by perryny

Texas hospitals are sending people home to die (https://www.star-telegram.com/news/c...244443257.html), but they seem intent opening up schools next month.

It really doesn't appear getting hit hard will be the catalyst for change.

The hospitals made the decision to send people home to die. Is that true?

The hospitals do "not" and did "not" make the decision to opening up schools next month.

Greg Abbott issued orders for the reopening of the state, overriding local control and decision-making, COVID-19 cases surged.
- star-telegram.com

Read more here: https://www.star-telegram.com/news/c...#storylink=cpyStar-Tel

[Jeffery]

Somebody deleted Claude's post. Why?

[perryny]

Originally Posted by Jeffery

In every sense of the word "logical" he is right.. it is logical.

Disney World is a business and made a business decision. Not the same type of logic that Dan is speaking to.


The hospitals made the decision to send people home to die. Is that true?

The hospitals do "not" and did "not" make the decision to opening up schools next month.

Read more here: https://www.star-telegram.com/news/c...#storylink=cpyStar-Tel

Disney can reopen. No one is making the local populace attend. Visiting the park despite knowing how hard the state is currently being hit is highly illogical. And opening the park as a business decision at this stage, also, highly illogical and irresponsible.

Texas wants to send kids back to school, despite hospitals not having enough beds or staff to care for the massive numbers of sick. Again, highly illogical.

[Princess Balestra]

All I know is, if'n it is wintah an' I pay a visit to my local store, reimagined as SNOT MONSTAH ...

an' there is an' old gal ahead in the queue ...

an' I SNEEZE ...

if'n I don't avert my face an' throw up a hand ...

there is ZERO REASON why she shouldn't smack me in the tits.

"You spreading your feeble millennial germs over my ass, sweetie? Take THAT for Pearl Harbor while I still got strength!"

tbh, now we all released from our DUNGEONS OF TORMENT, I don't figure how the regulah rules of flu-style plaguestuffs don't apply.

Plus also, who needs Teespring when you got Maskindeep or whatevah?

Tellya, I got leopard print gowin' on rn, but I could be advertizin' my services as an enlightened ditz.

Plenty wordplay on 'your slogan here' if'n it on a mask.

Mostly filth tho.

[Jeffery]

Originally Posted by perryny

Disney can reopen. No one is making the local populace attend. Visiting the park despite knowing how hard the state is currently being hit is highly illogical. And opening the park as a business decision at this stage, also, highly illogical and irresponsible.

Texas wants to send kids back to school, despite hospitals not having enough beds or staff to care for the massive numbers of sick. Again, highly illogical.

You do not answer questions. Rather, you can't, so you dance around the questions and try to apply your own sense of logic. Read the article you referred us to and try to keep up.

[perryny]

Originally Posted by Jeffery

You do not answer questions. Rather, you can't, so you dance around the questions and try to apply your own sense of logic. Read the article you referred us to and try to keep up.

Sorry, I must have missed something. What's your question?

Are you referring to "The hospitals made the decision to send people home to die. Is that true?"

From the article:

The county has been forced to form what is being compared to a so-called “death panel.” A county health board – which governs Starr Memorial – is set to authorize critical care guidelines Thursday that will help medical workers determine ways to allocate scarce medical resources on patients with the best chance to survive.

A committee will deem which COVID-19 patients are likely to die and send them home with family, Jose Vasquez, the county health authority, said during a news conference Tuesday.

“The situation is desperate,” Vasquez said. “We cannot continue functioning in the Starr County Memorial Hospital nor in our county in the way that things are going. The numbers are staggering.”

[Dan Riffle]

Originally Posted by perryny

Disney can reopen. No one is making the local populace attend. Visiting the park despite knowing how hard the state is currently being hit is highly illogical. And opening the park as a business decision at this stage, also, highly illogical and irresponsible.

Texas wants to send kids back to school, despite hospitals not having enough beds or staff to care for the massive numbers of sick. Again, highly illogical.

I think we agree completely.

I can't blame a business for wanting to make money. And it will never surprise me when Disney chooses profit over civic responsibilities.

It also doesn't surprise me that a certain percentage of the populace is mercilessly self-centered. That's why, when I speak to a "local populace," I'm speaking of local government, be that municipal or at a state level. A government's foremost responsibility should be the welfare of its citizens. Our governments at all levels have failed.

99.9% of the time, I prefer to let the market set precedence. Certain situations, like global pandemics, are outliers. If people can't care enough for themselves and those around them then someone needs to override them. And, yes, it's a slippery slope.

/soapbox.

[Jeffery]

Originally Posted by perryny

Sorry, I must have missed something. What's your question?

Are you referring to "The hospitals made the decision to send people home to die. Is that true?"

From the article:

The county has been forced to form what is being compared to a so-called “death panel.” A county health board – which governs Starr Memorial – is set to authorize critical care guidelines Thursday that will help medical workers determine ways to allocate scarce medical resources on patients with the best chance to survive.

A committee will deem which COVID-19 patients are likely to die and send them home with family, Jose Vasquez, the county health authority, said during a news conference Tuesday.

“The situation is desperate,” Vasquez said. “We cannot continue functioning in the Starr County Memorial Hospital nor in our county in the way that things are going. The numbers are staggering.”

The actual headline is:
COVID-19 patients will be ‘sent home to die’ if deemed too sick, Texas county says

You stated:
Texas hospitals are sending people home to die (https://www.star-telegram.com/news/c...244443257.html), but they seem intent on opening up schools next month.

Read more here: https://www.star-telegram.com/news/c...443257.html#st

But after Gov. Greg Abbott issued orders for the reopening of the state, overriding local control and decision-making, COVID-19 cases surged.

Read more here: https://www.star-telegram.com/news/c...#storylink=cpy

- star-telegram.com

That was the decision made by the Governor. Not the schools.

The hospitals, in the past never decided to send patients home to die.

Starr County officials state, in the future, they will make the decision meaning they did not make that decision in the past.

The key here is the Governor may override local control and decision-making regardless of Starr County decisions.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

It also doesn't surprise me that a certain percentage of the populace is mercilessly self-centered. .

I don't believe they are self centered. I think they believe what they say. They are ill informed.

This happened in my store yesterday...
A man came in without a mask (our Governor mandated wearing a mask in public in Ohio)
I didn't say anything.

He said "I'm not wearing a mask. They can't take our freedoms" (I'm paraphrasing)

I ignored it and said "How can I help you?"

He said "It's just the flu
'
I said "It's not the flu"

He said "We don't know what it is"

I said "Yes we do. It's a virus"

He said "Experts tell us that almost noboby dies and that it's going away"

I said "No experts are saying that. Every doctor, emergency room attendant, and the CDC tell us that it's spreading faster than ever in this country"

He said "Well, everyone has an opinion"

I said "It's not an opinion".

I realized that he really just came in for the air conditioning, and to spread his "Truth".

He left. The problem is...30% of the country is like that. and at 30%, this virus won't stop spreading.



By the way, never talk like that to a customer. It's a guaranteed way to kill a business. But he caught me in a weak moment.

Added later; There is nothing wrong with sending kids to school right now. Unless....they have adults for teachers...or their parents are adults. Then there could be a real problem.

[Dan Riffle]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I don't believe they are self centered. I think they believe what they say. They are ill informed.

This happened in my store yesterday...
A man came in without a mask (our Governor mandated wearing a mask in public in Ohio)
I didn't say anything.

He said "I'm not wearing a mask. They can't take our freedoms" (I'm paraphrasing)

I ignored it and said "How can I help you?"

He said "It's just the flu
'
I said "It's not the flu"

He said "We don't know what it is"

I said "Yes we do. It's a virus"

He said "Experts tell us that almost noboby dies and that it's going away"

I said "No experts are saying that. Every doctor, emergency room attendant, and the CDC tell us that it's spreading faster than ever in this country"

He said "Well, everyone has an opinion"

I said "It's not an opinion".

I realized that he really just came in for the air conditioning, and to spread his "Truth".

He left. The problem is...30% of the country is like that. and at 30%, this virus won't stop spreading.



By the way, never talk like that to a customer. It's a guaranteed way to kill a business. But he caught me in a weak moment.

Added later; There is nothing wrong with sending kids to school right now. Unless....they have adults for teachers...or their parents are adults. Then there could be a real problem.

I'm too lazy to edit the mess above. You'll figure out what I'm referencing...

I think your examples are proof of self-centeredness. It's confirmation bias at it's finest. This is an instance where citing personal freedoms is directly and irresponsibly an attack on the greater good. It's not a point of, "If you don't want to catch it, stay home. I'll do what I damn well please." If some maskless chotch gets it and he's, say, my mailman, a part of my element of choice has been removed. Further, the consequence isn't moot. The consequence is I could die or my mother-in-law could die...or my son could die. Their personal freedom is somebody else's unwanted death sentence. So, yes, it's self-centeredness.

The school situation is hard. The hard choice, the right choice, is distance learning. My local school is giving students four choices: attend in person; attend live via zoom; distance learn via lesson recordings; attend a certified online program with 100% guaranty of local school system credit. I'm satisfied with that solution.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

I'm too lazy to edit the mess above. You'll figure out what I'm referencing...

I think your examples are proof of self-centeredness. It's confirmation bias at it's finest. This is an instance where citing personal freedoms is directly and irresponsibly an attack on the greater good. It's not a point of, "If you don't want to catch it stay home. I'll do what I damn well please. ".

Dear Slippery Riffle;

Strictly speaking you are right. But I've found that the "You won't take our freedom" guys also...invariably also believe that it's either a hoax or just the flu.

I don't think you'll ever hear "Yup. I know 5 people who have died from this, and it's a worldwide pandemic...but I'm not wearing a mask, no matter whose life I save".

I don't think people think like that.

But yes, it's confirmation bias. Although your argument is more evidence of how Slippery you are.

[kenmichaels]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Dear Slippery Riffle;

Strictly speaking you are right. But I've found that the "You won't take our freedom" guys also...invariably also believe that it's either a hoax or just the flu.


I don't think you'll ever hear "Yup. I know 5 people who have died from this, and it's a worldwide pandemic...but I'm not wearing a mask, no matter whose life I save".

I don't think people think like that.

But yes, it's confirmation bias. Although your argument is more evidence of how Slippery you are.

My brother...the overweight NY 1st responder, who needed intensive care and has personally hauled many to the hospitals, believe only the old and those with underlying conditions have anything to worry about.

Now, now that he is healthy, now that he hasn't been on active duty for a while, now that he is hanging out with the other 1st responders, including police, emt, etc.

They are all a bunch of nuts, they all believe in a myriad of conspiracies.

Some of what they say makes me think they are shining me on....for instance,
last time I called I was on speakerphone and a bunch of them were there and my brother the 15 yr + EMT & FF is saying that he doesn't believe any of the numbers are accurate. ok, no argument there and a voice then says, yeah it doesn't matter who dies nowadays they are all being counted as covid to infuse money into the dying hospitals....and then another voice pops in and says, yeah it's not the corona that's killing everyone, its the cough medicine.

I said what? and the voice says, "yeah, it gets transmitted by coughing so the hospitals don't want them coughing so they keep overdosing them on cough medicine and that's what really killing everyone."

These are trained people and that is an excerpt from a real conversation kept in context.

I have two brothers who seem to think this is all a conspiracy.
Crazy.

and...yeah, they all confirm and escalate each others bs.

[Jeffery]

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

<snip>

These are trained people and that is an excerpt from a real conversation kept in context.

Trained people doesn't mean they are educated people. Next time, if you want to make them think twice, ask them "Is it difficult being an uneducated person in an educated world?"

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

I said what? and the voice says, "yeah, it gets transmitted by coughing so the hospitals don't want them coughing so they keep overdosing them on cough medicine and that's what really killing everyone."

These are trained people and that is an excerpt from a real conversation kept in context.

Think about this in a broader sense. What can you learn from this?

Expertise in one area doesn't mean expertise in other areas. And we are all subject to irrational thinking....and much of it depends on who our friends are, and what media (groups) they follow.

It's not a matter of intelligence. Rational thinking is separate from that. Rational thinking is a matter of not caring what the answer is. That's not human nature. Normal people follow their group. They believe what their group believes. No matter how bizarre.

Think of what an EMT is. A trained person...trained in providing emergency services. They aren't trained in logical thinking. They aren't skeptical thinkers by nature. So we tend to expect them to show intellectual fitness generally.

Nope. They are like almost everyone..they believe what they hear, they believe what their friends believe. Remember when Flouride was thought of as a mind control device? Yup. Exhaust from jets is seen (by many) as the government poisoning us.

It's because our imagination is stronger than our reasoning ability. It's not a matter of them being wrong. It's a matter of human nature. You just noticed it because you share a different view.

Originally Posted by Jeffery

Trained people doesn't mean they are educated people. Next time, if you want to make them think twice, ask them "Is it difficult being an uneducated person in an educated world?"

You beat me to the post.

But then I ask the question "What is education?" Most of us hear very few facts in a day. We hear opinions, views, positions, arguments...all dripping in bias. If the bias agrees with your bias...it's "News". The "Truth"....and it's how you get "Educated". (Everything get's quotation marks from now on. Claude's "Rule".)

And conspiracy theories are the worst, because they appeal to an intelligent mind. They are complex...involved. and they quickly invent answers to obvious criticism. They are a trap. They stop the thinking process. But to the initiated, they are the secrets others don't know....and there is always a Them.

Reading books on irrational thinking helps. But we are all human. And it's how we think.

[Dan Riffle]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Think about this in a broader sense. What can you learn from this?

Expertise in one area doesn't mean expertise in other areas. And we are all subject to irrational thinking....and much of it depends on who our friends are, and what media (groups) they follow.

It's not a matter of intelligence. Rational thinking is separate from that. Rational thinking is a matter of not caring what the answer is. That's not human nature. Normal people follow their group. They believe what their group believes. No matter how bizarre.

Think of what an EMT is. A trained person...trained in providing emergency services. They aren't trained in logical thinking. They aren't skeptical thinkers by nature. So we tend to expect them to show intellectual fitness generally.

Nope. They are like almost everyone..they believe what they hear, they believe what their friends believe. Remember when Flouride was thought of as a mind control device? Yup. Exhaust from jets is seen (by many) as the government poisoning us.

It's because our imagination is stronger than our reasoning ability. It's not a matter of them being wrong. It's a matter of human nature. You just noticed it because you share a different view.




You beat me to the post.

But then I ask the question "What is education?" Most of us hear very few facts in a day. We hear opinions, views, positions, arguments...all dripping in bias. If the bias agrees with your bias...it's "News". The "Truth"....and it's how you get "Educated". (Everything get's quotation marks from now on. Claude's "Rule".)

And conspiracy theories are the worst, because they appeal to an intelligent mind. They are complex...involved. and they quickly invent answers to obvious criticism. They are a trap. They stop the thinking process. But to the initiated, they are the secrets others don't know....and there is always a Them.

Reading books on irrational thinking helps. But we are all human. And it's how we think.

"Good post."


This would be a great time to drop a link to that Critical Thinking book you occasionally reference.

[myob]

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

This would be a great time to drop a link to that Critical Thinking book you occasionally reference.

Ideally, you should research "logical fallacies" on your own. But this book is recommended by academians and critically acclaimed by its author:

Fallacies: Classical and Contemporary Readings

[Dan Riffle]

Originally Posted by myob

Ideally, you should research "logical fallacies" on your own. But this book is recommended by academians and critically acclaimed by its author:

Fallacies: Classical and Contemporary Readings

Claude has a book he frequently references. I was speaking specifically to it.

Although, I wouldn't be surprised if the book you linked to is the same one I read in college.

[myob]

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

Claude has a book he frequently references. I was speaking specifically to it.

You should critically examine the logic behind what Claude says.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

Claude has a book he frequently references. I was speaking specifically to it.

Although, I wouldn't be surprised if the book you linked to is the same one I read in college.

Guides To Straight Thinking. With 13 Common Fallacies.by Stuart Chase. It was written in 1956

I "Collect" old books on reasoning. I think this may be the first one I read, maybe 50 years ago.

I remember reading it and crying a few times. Because I recognized that I was thinking in some of these irrational ways...and that much of what I held to be absolutely true was based on faulty reasoning. I've read it several times over the years, along with a few other more contemporary books on rational thinking.

My suspicion is that most people reading this book won't see how it applies to themselves. That's a hard pill to swallow. And I can speak from decades of experience that the insights you get from this book (and others like it) are for internal use. Trying to explain to someone else why their argument is nonsensical, even using the information in this book...will fail.

[Princess Balestra]

tbh I a sucker for fallacies, so I could use a little straightenin' out.


Thing is, we know the powah emoschwaahn plays in decision makin', an' most marketin' stuff really cranks hard on that lever.


That's why you gotta have a solid BS detectah.


Othahwise you could end up payin' $1,500 for a LUCKY BABY TOAD bcs normally they $3,000 an' you jus' happened to be right place, right time for the LAST one in STORE.

[lanfear63]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Guides To Straight Thinking. With 13 Common Fallacies.by Stuart Chase. It was written in 1956

I "Collect" old books on reasoning. I think this may be the first one I read, maybe 50 years ago.

I remember reading it and crying a few times. Because I recognized that I was thinking in some of these irrational ways...and that much of what I held to be absolutely true was based on faulty reasoning. I've read it several times over the years, along with a few other more contemporary books on rational thinking.

My suspicion is that most people reading this book won't see how it applies to themselves. That's a hard pill to swallow. And I can speak from decades of experience that the insights you get from this book (and others like it) are for internal use. Trying to explain to someone else why their argument is nonsensical, even using the information in this book...will fail.

For me, Subjective Experience has always overridden Critical Thinking and Logic etc, it is simply too profound and overwhelming an experience that retreating back to the above to explain it is a step backwards, profoundly inadequate. It does not even come close.

You would, however, have had to have experienced and know both in order to fully appreciate that.

[socialentry]

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

Based on the conversations in this thread, I don't think that many people participating have had covid or know someone who has. I think that's about to change over the next two or three weeks.

Some shells have landed pretty close.

Where I live is very much a Covid hotspot.

My sister's grandmother in law died. Dozens died at a retirement home not even 10 minutes away walk from my old apartment.

It's bizarre and surreal that most are treating this summer so casually.

[socialentry]

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

Claude has a book he frequently references. I was speaking specifically to it.

"The Berenstein family goes to Hawaii" is not generally thought of as a book on critical thinking

Originally Posted by lanfear63

For me, Subjective Experience has always overridden Critical Thinking and Logic etc,

I hope you're joking.

[Dan Riffle]

Originally Posted by socialentry

"The Berenstein family goes to Hawaii" is not generally thought of as a book on critical thinking

On a related note, did you know all of Claude's coloring books are unused?

He considers crayons "rainbow French fries."

[Profit Traveler]

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

On a related note, did you know all of Claude's coloring books are unused?

He considers crayons "rainbow French fries."

Hilarious...I would like to one day hang out with all you guys....

from a safe distance.


You know me I could not resist the search...Rainbow French fries are a thing.


https://www.nowthatspeachy.com/2012/...nch-fries.html

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Profit Traveler

And they somehow think they are heroes.

They become a virus more dangerous than the original virus.

The Lead Scientist responsible with saving lives in this Pandemic is getting Death Threats?

Who are these people what motivated them? Can anyone explain?

Frequent stories like Pulls out a gun over wearing a Face Mask inside a Store where we or our family could be.

You are suggesting that humans are rational creatures. We are not.

The people you are talking about aren't seeing this as "Truth VS Lies". They are seeing it as "Us VS Them". That's the lens they see the world through.

"You are with us, or you are against us".

Whatever is said on "Your side" is the truth. Whatever is said on the "Other side" is a lie. Or racist. Or sexist. Watch the "reporter's" face when they quote someone on the "other side". Their tone is different. And we pick that up.

Anyway, when I'm talking about people like this, it's easy to think it's about other people. No. I mean we are all like this.

Think of the last time you defended a friend, after they did something stupid, or evil. Think of how you see statements made by the "other side" politically (whatever side that is). We automatically discredit what is said.

I think about this all the time, and I still find myself angry at one person and defending another...when they do the same thing.

We always think that we are good. We always think that we are the hero or the victim in the story. Never the bad guy.

An experiment was done once where quotes from one political leader were read to his supporters, and were credited to his political enemy. Everyone hated what was said. It isn't what's being said...it's which side you are on.

And that will never change.

Have you ever wondered why...no matter what is said...half the country thinks it's good, and the other half bad. Why? Why half? No matter how bad, or how good.

Because one half against the other is a good battle. It's how money is raised. It's how debates go on forever. If it shifts to 80/20...the struggle is over. And there has to be a struggle....an outrage. If one doesn't exist, one will be created with the material at hand.

All media that reports politics, all politicians, all fund raisers....rely on this balance of power...balance of anger. If it shifts too far to one side, something "happens" to shift it back.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

On a related note, did you know all of Claude's coloring books are unused?

I don't see color.

[Dan Riffle]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I don't see color.

You just eat it.



But, I agree with your post about Us v. Them.

I had hoped we could unify around the pandemic much like we had at 9/11. However, 9/11 gave us a new Them.

[myob]

Originally Posted by socialentry

It's bizarre and surreal that most are treating this summer so casually.

This is all an example of every possible "logical fallacy" in action.

Socrates, along with Plato, often wrote that radical beliefs debated by "sophists" were seldom based on logic or reason, but rather on mythological assumptions from wild imaginations for explaining natural phenomena.

Aristotle was a student of Plato and was the first to make a list of flawed logic or fallacies, which later become the modern foundation of the scientific method. He backed up his views with detailed and systematic observation.

It involves careful observation, applying rigorous skepticism about what is observed, given that cognitive assumptions can distort how one interprets the observation.

On the other hand, we see these very same logic fallacies being used quite effectively in not only advertising and marketing, but also throughout "conspiracy theories", UFO's, 9/11, disinformation, propaganda, politics, and almost every facet in everyday life.

Perhaps the greatest concern especially during current events is that people typically tend to scrape for "evidence" to support their own preconceived notions and beliefs.

Dissing science (and usually all logic), for example, to support living a high-risk lifestyle has always been a leading cause of needless suffering and tragedy.

[Odahh]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I don't believe they are self centered. I think they believe what they say. They are ill informed.


I realized that he really just came in for the air conditioning, and to spread his "Truth".

He left. The problem is...30% of the country is like that. and at 30%, this virus won't stop spreading.

By the way, never talk like that to a customer. It's a guaranteed way to kill a business. But he caught me in a weak moment.

Added later; There is nothing wrong with sending kids to school right now. Unless....they have adults for teachers...or their parents are adults. Then there could be a real problem.

it is quickly being taken out of your hands as the business owner ..who risks getting closed down or fined if people don't wear masks in your store . the restricted mode we are in because of the virus can easily be required untill spring next year or longer .

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Profit Traveler

I see the books in your Sig but it is obvious you have so much more to share that others can benefit from my friend..

You are very kind to say so.

Back to the Virus.

Take the issue of wearing masks. If there was no pandemic....if we didn't already takes sides on this crisis....if you asked about effectiveness of masks, you would get the same answers from everyone. There would be no controversy, only education.

But now, we have split the idea of wearing masks into political camps.

One side says they partially protect us, and do a good job if everyone wears them. That's one tactic other countries have taken. Everyone wears a mask...the contagion dies away.

But now we have a third of the country saying things like ;
"Masks cut off our oxygen"
"It's about freedom"
"Masks have zero effect".

So it has become a political posture. The facts no longer matter.

My question is...could the other side have adopted this same stance? I think so. And if they did, the opposing side would now be saying how effective masks are...and calling the people who won't wear them terrorists.

We talk about conspiracy theories as though they are the property of the "other side". But it's just because we accept our own conspiracy theories as "The news".

There is a reason that the US has only 4% of the world's population but has 25% of the cases of the virus. I post this on Facebook, and predictably, about half the people that respond are denying that it's true. Fake news.


Humans.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Odahh

it is quickly being taken out of your hands as the business owner ..who risks getting closed down or fined if people don't wear masks in your store . the restricted mode we are in because of the virus can easily be required untill spring next year or longer .

Are you saying that if my customers don't wear masks that I could be fined or closed down? Or are you saying that if my wife and I didn't wear masks that we could be closed down?

[Profit Traveler]

I am in optimist first and foremost.

I think if you are doom and gloom daily might as well stay in bed an no need to spread it to others.

I have a strong feeling the entire world is going to celebrate and breathe a long awaited sigh of relief on COVID very soon. Not exactly sure. Maybe mere months.


The Owner of Freelancer seems very science and testing focused if you follow him on Twitter.


Let's all be optimistic.

[lanfear63]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I don't see color.

So is that true, you are color blind, is that seeing in color but not being able to point to specific colors, identify them or seeing things in monochrome, what's the deal here?

I always thought your opinions were black and white with scant room for grey area's.

[Odahh]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Are you saying that if my customers don't wear masks that I could be fined or closed down? Or are you saying that if my wife and I didn't wear masks that we could be closed down?

the same prohibitions agains people smokeing and if those have been updated to include vpeing in your business .will be applied to people not wearing masks

[whateverpedia]

A thought suddenly occurred to me.

One surefire way to get all these people to wear masks is to tell them that if they wear a mask the facial recognition software attached to the ubiquitous surveillance cameras can't recognise them.

No mask = "the man" knows who you are, and because of the location of the cameras, knows where you are.

Mask = freedom = patriotism

[Jeffery]

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

A thought suddenly occurred to me.

One surefire way to get all these people to wear masks is to tell them that if they wear a mask the facial recognition software attached to the ubiquitous surveillance cameras can't recognise them.

No mask = "the man" knows who you are, and because of the location of the cameras, knows where you are.

Mask = freedom = patriotism

Mask = "the man" knows not who you are, and because of the location of the cameras, knows not where you are.
- GoM

[Kay King]

Yesterday, Dr Fauci threw another wrench into the works. During his daily 'comments' he mentioned.....'it may be that eye protection is necessary to avoid covid-19'.....and not a single media person picked up on it or asked a question about it.


Three plus months into a pandemic before it was decided 'masks are necessary' - five months into a pandemic and we may need goggles, too? And not a single media outlet thought - 'wow, that's new'.


Reminds me of a few years when I lived 'within' the research and academic community. Very smart physicists and chemists tripping over their M.D.'s and Ph.D.'s - as they discussed the ins and the outs - the ups and the downs - the potentials and the risks...of one major 'problem' after another.


I remember a discussion where I said in a major catastrophe I'd choose to follow the rambos over the intellectuals. My reasoning was that 'go there, do that now, avoid that at all costs' was better advice in an crisis than 'let's talk this through and see what our options are and examine each of those options point by point'.



An effective response to any emergency is a combination of rational thought and decisive action. Hard to achieve the balance at times.

[Mark Singletary]

I think unless they literally called out the National Guard or even the military to enforce mask or lockdown orders by arrest and jailtime it's never going to work in the USA.

I saw where a sheriff in Florida issued 200 citations. That's not enforcing it because-some of those people will never pay and then still be noncompliant.

Then you have the vaccines to worry about. Lots of people don't take them now for diseases just as debilitating as COVID. So, what's to say they are going to all the sudden change.

Don't forget those people who'll claim religious exemptions, or they have asthma, or whatever. You let them get away with it then a lot of people will be finding religion or an asthma diagnosis or whatever can be exempted.

Think about it. We can't get people across the board to wear seatbelts, drive the speed limit, not double park, eat right, exercise, go to the doctor for regular checkups, stay off illegal drugs, etc. so, what makes anyone think we can force masks, lockdowns, or vaccines outside of total control and force?

Mark

[Jeffery]

Originally Posted by Kay King

Yesterday, Dr Fauci threw another wrench into the works. During his daily 'comments' he mentioned.....'it may be that eye protection is necessary to avoid covid-19'.....and not a single media person picked up on it or asked a question about it.
<snip>

Here you go. Fauci on Protective Eye Gear at about 4:00
https://youtu.be/PrJRP1dK6H4?t=263

FEMA reports that the death rate is now at almot one death a minute.
https://youtu.be/76ttiFLP_Ko?t=28


Sorry for not posting the videos, but I haven't been able to post vids for weeks.

[Kay King]

the death rate is now at almost one death a minute

That's a scare tactic to me. 1485 deaths in US yesterday are what NY was seeing a few months ago in that one state. The news reported like that is sensationalized - makes it sound like 'it's out of control'.

[Profit Traveler]

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

I think unless they literally called out the National Guard or even the military to enforce mask or lockdown orders by arrest and jailtime it's never going to work in the USA.

I saw where a sheriff in Florida issued 200 citations. That's not enforcing it because-some of those people will never pay and then still be noncompliant.

Then you have the vaccines to worry about. Lots of people don't take them now for diseases just as debilitating as COVID. So, what's to say they are going to all the sudden change.

Don't forget those people who'll claim religious exemptions, or they have asthma, or whatever. You let them get away with it then a lot of people will be finding religion or an asthma diagnosis or whatever can be exempted.

Think about it. We can't get people across the board to wear seatbelts, drive the speed limit, not double park, eat right, exercise, go to the doctor for regular checkups, stay off illegal drugs, etc. so, what makes anyone think we can force masks, lockdowns, or vaccines outside of total control and force?

Mark

It is very simple...EXAMPLE. who or what is making an example for people to follow?

Mixed Messages equal Right Now. The Tsunami.

[Profit Traveler]

Originally Posted by Kay King

That's a scare tactic to me. 1485 deaths in US yesterday are what NY was seeing a few months ago in that one state. The news reported like that is sensationalized - makes it sound like 'it's out of control'.

My friend what news are you reading. It is out of control. Not everyone lives in isolated territory.


There needs to be accountability especially if your grand ma gets COVID and dies because she was encouraged to do exactly what got her infected.

[Mark Singletary]

Originally Posted by Profit Traveler

It is very simple...EXAMPLE. who or what is making an example for people to follow?

Mixed Messages equal Right Now. The Tsunami.

Example won't work as long as the whole thing is politicized on both sides because the other side will always be wrong and to blame no matter what is done.

The mixed messages are coming from all over: scientists, politicians, wannabe doctors, doctors, whackos, news organizations, etc. And none of them trust the other.

For example, Bill Gates said yesterday it's time for kids to go back to school.
He's been looked at as the potential Savior by many during this--even in this thread.

So, now which is it? Is it all the sudden okay for kids to go to school? Because that's not what all the headlines have been blasting the last few weeks. They have said and implied sending the kids back to school is a death sentence, it's crazy, it's ignoring the science, it's endangering our children, etc..

So, what now? Is it okay? It's hard to tell since none of the big news organizations are running the new headline about the benefits of going back to school outweighing the risks. With schools set to open soon, why wouldn't this be headline news after pushing the other side regularly? Or is Bill Gates off the dinner invite list now? LOL

I agree about mixed messages being bad but the reason for the mixed messages is deeper than the virus.

Mark

[Jeffery]

Originally Posted by Kay King

That's a scare tactic to me. 1485 deaths in US yesterday are what NY was seeing a few months ago in that one state. The news reported like that is sensationalized - makes it sound like 'it's out of control'.

It may be sensationalized in nature and it may be a conspiracy? Earlier, you accused me of being a Conspiracist. Are you now accusing me of Sensationalism?

Nationwide vs what NY experienced a few months ago are two different situations. The key point is this is now Nationwide. It may also be a fact that when a person dies every minute it may not be under control?

BTW, in the minute it took me to write this post.. someone died. RIP.

[lanfear63]

Covid has been carried by Bats for decades.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-53584936

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Kay King

That's a scare tactic to me. 1485 deaths in US yesterday are what NY was seeing a few months ago in that one state. The news reported like that is sensationalized - makes it sound like 'it's out of control'.

Is it a "Scare tactic" Sure. It's also true. All media sensationalizes news. And most media editorializes to bend the story to make it more contentious.

And a pandemic that is spreading at the same rate it was months ago, is out of control.

New York was hit particularly hard because it was the beginning of the pandemic, people were not wearing masks, and New York is a high population density state.

There are now two versions of the pandemic;

1) It's over. Let's talk about something else.
2) We are all going to die.

As always, our sources of "information" are dividing us into two opposing camps. It's not enough that we see things differently, we must see the other side as evil.

Fouci has advocated wearing masks (as has nearly every other medical professional in the world) for months. He said, at the very beginning, that there was no need to wear a mask, when there were only 50 cases in the whole country. That changed as the virus spread. The idea of wearing eye covering is because the virus can still enter through our eyes, although it's not likely.

and...the virus went from non-existent...to the #1 cause of death in the US...back down a few rungs...and now is back up to #1 in half the states. That's a fact. And that makes it out of control.

How will we know when it's "under control"? When the numbers for the whole country steadily go down for several weeks.