[socialentry]

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

What I do know, though, is that where I live there was NO social distancing and while many wore masks, many more did not. That combination = one of the lowest number of cases and death (7 dead total) in the world.

How is that explained?

Mark

A competent government?

[whateverpedia]

Originally Posted by perryny

Gotta say, this makes sense.

It's pretty clear at this point that we don't need a vaccine to beat this.

All it would literally take is for humans to come together by staying apart for a little while and wear a mask. This thing would quickly become manageable and daily life would largely return to normal (as normal as things are right now without the virus).

The virus isn't hurting us. We are.

Exactly. Have a look a New Zealand. They went in early and went in hard, and have now enjoyed over 100 days in a row of no community transmissions. This is what Kiwis can now safely do :



Crowds, yes crowds, are attending sporting events.

And yes, I am aware that NZ is in a fairly unique position in that it has no land borders, and a comparatively small population so it's been a lot easier, but Britain is similar in geography (ie island state), but look at how badly Britain has fared because of their half-hearted, half-arsed response to the pandemic.

[Odahh]

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

We closed businesses and schools. But that didn't stop people from having parties,

So, in summation, we shut down the economy, yes, but we didn't truly shutdown the populace. So, we destroyed the economy and still got overrun by the virus.

Can I explain why Taiwan or wherever you live only has 7 deaths. No. My guess is very limited testing or the government is misreporting the numbers.

taiwan got hit with sars then swine flu .. and doesn't trust The CCP ..so the as soon as they learned a new virus was in china the government and the people .took the measures needed .. and there are no inhibitions on wearing mask in the first place . Where the US didn't start taking any actions until the first travel bans .. but by then it was to late .. china had hoovered up much of the excesses ppe from the rest of the world .

in any case as far as destroying the economy goes ..or the sectors that have been destroyed .. the virus would have caused a drop in foot traffic ..that would have probably wiped out many operations that where barely holding on and had no reserve capital anyway ..the lockdowns in the US allowed the government hand out money ..

but the people who got an extra 600 a week and where making far more then when they where working .. still stopped paying their rents .. and it looks like instead opened robin hood accounts ..

if the corona virus kills the economy it is because there are a huge number of co factors that have been building up for 30 years ..and we could have watched it die over a few years .. versus 6 months.. the most basic explanation ..with debt fueled growth eventual to much debt builds up and crashes the system ..when individuals can't take on any more debt ..or enough debt to keep the system going ..


the future is not written at this point the collective results of individual and group actions creates will create the future ..and we are stampeding toward a cliff inside this country

[socialentry]

Originally Posted by KKing

I remember a discussion where I said in a major catastrophe I'd choose to follow the rambos over the intellectuals.

but wat if the crisis demands great amount of R&D and not a great amount of killing mountains of people with a machinegun:


e.g. a worldwide pandemic with no known cure

[perryny]

The only research this crisis demands is that you look at any other place that already got this virus under control.

[socialentry]

Originally Posted by perryny

The only research this crisis demands is that you look at any other place that already got this virus under control.

Aaaah, you're right: I must have missed the part where John Rambo was elected President of Taiwan. I better check Wikipedia again.

[Profit Traveler]

We are living in an Era of Corona B.S.

There are suppose to be brilliant minds leading the way on Coronavirus but the way is either super spreading the pandemic or get muffled and or attacked.

People are bending themselves into mindless zombie pretzels to defend the B.S.

I said it before and will say it again...if you think you are intellectual on this pandemic an never mention the word testing you are living in a big steaming hot bowl of...aforementioned B.S.

What is the hotspot now? KIDS....how did that happen?

97,000 children reportedly test positive for coronavirus in two weeks as schools gear up for instruction

[kenmichaels]

Originally Posted by Profit Traveler

What is the hotspot now? KIDS....how did that happen?

97,000 children reportedly test positive for coronavirus in two weeks as schools gear up for instruction

Kids are how it started with me. The darknet (now that's a BS word) was all abuzz
about how a mysterious illness was killing children in Wuhan China. Lots of articles
and the articles themselves where getting deleted fast... that is specifically (the deleting)
what made me notice.

Then it looked like it was happening in Italy, luckily, it appears as if it was only a few children.

And then all the stupid USA media was saying the kids are safe, nothing to worry about.

It was said so much for so long by so many, I think I may have even started to believe it.

I dunno if anyone is paying attention or not, but 25 kids have died so far, that we know of, here in the USA. I think that puts us (if nothing changes) at between 16 and 30k children are going to die. UnF-ing Fathomable!

I was always under the impression that we (the USA) would go to war to save the lives of children.
I guess I was wrong.

I have completely lost the respect for the words "checks and balances"
What has happened, what is happening and what will continue for the foreseeable future was never supposed to be able to happen, according to our existing laws.

[kenmichaels]

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

The Internets? What's that? We use our high speed 56K dial up modems just fine. The news I watch must be much different than that available in the states: ABC, CNN, Fox, etc.

Yes the carrier pigeon finally got us news. By my abacus counting, they were closed for 116 days. Is that not long enough for you?

Yes, the smoke signals came in yesterday. But weren't they closed for 2-3 months? Is that not long enough for you?

Yes, I heard about that but I've been focusing on all the other "rallies" and gatherings that all seem to be justified. If one mass gathering is bad, they all are.

It sounds like a country that mostly locked down for 2-3 months. It also sounds like a country where many people don't have food to eat if they don't work. Got to balance these two things.

Mark

"Mostly"

Words matter. We mostly closed down, so we mostly got rid of the problem.

Just like with all things in life, when you mostly do something, you haven't completed the
task, so ultimately, you haven't done shit.

Since we never locked down the entire argument is flawed.

But you know that already, Profit Traveler doesn't know you're one who gets
pleasure from stirring up the pot.

Also, since you aren't here, you don't get to see all the lies, up close and personal.
Like this one, "anyone who needs a test can get one.

Lie. In Volusia, everywhere they said to go to get tested on tv, they have literally closed up and moved on after 200
tests. My mayor, his wife and his two children have covid and it took HIM 14 days to get a test.

[Mark Singletary]

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

But you know that already, Profit Traveler doesn't know you're one who gets
pleasure from stirring up the pot.

Ken, I do not like to stir up the pot. I am the most laidback guy you'd ever meet.

What I don't like are inconsistent arguments.

For example, some have touted Bill Gates as the virus guru we should all listen to.

Yet, when he said last week kids should go back to school all the sudden it seems he's not our guru anymore. Or, people don't accept it after praising him for months.

Another example. They say just follow the example of the countries that have whipped it. Logical argument, right? Until it falls apart.

For example, everyone (including me) says how good and important masks are (I wear them everytime I leave my house). Yet, New Zealand did not push mask usage. In fact, in an article from just a few days ago, the government said that if there is another outbreak the government may have a new mask rule which is different from how it's operated the last several months.

So, on the one hand people say follow the example of New Zealand or wherever. But, then they aren't wiling to follow their example on masks.

Two other aspects of New Zealand's response was lockdown and testing. In the US, lockdowns are done at the local level. There is no federal authority to lockdown the US. You wouldn't want that if there was because there would be too much room for abuse. So, lockdowns are up to local governors and mayors unless we declare martial law and send the National Guard door to door.

How do you keep people off the beach? Or from funerals? Or from church? Again, you need a strong police presence who gives out not just fines but holds people (you've got to force them to leave the beach or wherever or the enforcement is no good). But, we're letting felons out of prison because of COVID and we're looking at restructuring how the police work. Again, the inconsistencies.

The next piece is testing. New Zealand has tested 99,280 per million population. The US has tested 199,290 per million.

So, what else can we do when looking at someone who beat it?

Another: Rules about protests/rallies/funerals/indoor gatherings all seem to be inconsistent depending on the purpose.

This is a scary thing. It's an unknown thing. I believe in the virus. I am worried because I'm in one of those categories of people that better not get it. It's affected my income and our business. I don't know the answers and I hope they find answers soon.

But it's almost impossible to have a conversation with people about this without it becoming political or personal. Inconsistency doesn't help.

Mark

[Profit Traveler]

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

"Mostly"

Words matter. We mostly closed down, so we mostly got rid of the problem.

Just like with all things in life, when you mostly do something, you haven't completed the
task, so ultimately, you haven't done shit.

Since we never locked down the entire argument is flawed.

But you know that already, Profit Traveler doesn't know you're one who gets
pleasure from stirring up the pot.

Also, since you aren't here, you don't get to see all the lies, up close and personal.
Like this one, "anyone who needs a test can get one.

Lie. In Volusia, everywhere they said to go to get tested on tv, they have literally closed up and moved on after 200
tests. My mayor, his wife and his two children have covid and it took HIM 14 days to get a test.

Been a warrior for over a decade different profiles when it was allowed and never been found in violation until this thread...my eyes are wide open my friend.

[TobiMDD]

you should all come to berlin on august 29th and end this fake pandemic bullshit,

Everyone is invited to celebrate freedom and peace on this day, hope I see some of you there ;-)

[Profit Traveler]

Originally Posted by TobiMDD

you should all come to berlin on august 29th and end this fake pandemic bullshit,

Everyone is invited to celebrate freedom and peace on this day, hope I see some of you there ;-)

There have been at least 217,200 confirmed cases of coronavirus in Germany, according to the Robert Koch Institute, the country’s public health institution. As of Tuesday morning, 9,201 people had died.

[Dan Riffle]

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

What I do know, though, is that where I live there was NO social distancing and while many wore masks, many more did not. That combination = one of the lowest number of cases and death (7 dead total) in the world.

How is that explained?

Mark

Just read an article that proffers a possible explanation.

Bill Gates, co-founder of Microsoft and of the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, told CNN over the weekend that “related coronavirus exposure” has begun to explain the regional discrepancies.

“Within a few months we’ll really understand this,” Gates said. He pointed out that, in Southeast Asia, the prevalence of coronavirus-carrying bats might have increased T cell immunity among the human population. “They probably had this cross protection that meant the spread of the disease was not as strong there,” he said.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/why-does-covid-19-strike-110000273.html

[Profit Traveler]

Originally Posted by Odahh

no politics didn't get us here with corona virus .. human behaviors from millions of years of evolution got us here .. combined with a highly connected world where people where able to fly from one side of the planet to the other ..in 16 hours ,,,

added to The CCP lying to the world as much as it could closing down domestic air travel and then screaming racism when the US closed air travel from China to the US ..

so do you believe the CCP really got the virus under control in China ..and hasn't had any deaths from it since march/april ..

what happened in china .. is before wuhan locked down millions of people fled wuhan and many of them where infected ..

THe same thing happened in the US as infected areas lock down and people who are infected .. flee to other areas and cause outbreaks there .. and then there is always gong to be a huge chunk of the population that does the opposite of what they should do and engage in behaviors that lead to further spread of the virus ..

6 words of agreement.

We are not currently living in an era of taking responsibility...only pointing fingers.

[whateverpedia]

Originally Posted by Profit Traveler

There have been at least 217,200 confirmed cases of coronavirus in Germany, according to the Robert Koch Institute, the country’s public health institution. As of Tuesday morning, 9,201 people had died.

Sounds like the person you were responding to is volunteering to be #9202.

[Profit Traveler]

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

Sounds like the person you were responding to is volunteering to be #9202.

Actually inviting us to be.

Mind blowing.

In other COVID News, I hear hospitals are gearing up for the big Motorcycle no masks super spreader event.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/no-masks-...232256861.html

[socialentry]

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

What I don't like are inconsistent arguments.

By whom?


When you don't even define the people making the inconsistent arguments, it's easy to score points.



If you want to use logic, you have to define your terms.



P implies Q means nothing if you don't even declare what P is.

[Kay King]

Been a warrior for over a decade different profiles when it was allowed and never been found in violation until this thread...my eyes are wide open my friend.

Your only violation, as you well know, has been trying to discuss political 'stuff' in this particular thread. You are not the only one to violate the 'no politics' rule as it is easy to get carried away in discussions. However, you are the only one that continues to argue about it.

Everyone has an opinion about covid - and that's fine because we don't know all the facts - we can't yet as the research is not done that quickly. I disagree with those who see this as the 'end of everything' - this virus is not deadly enough to be that. I also disagree with the 'it will be over soon' - I tend more toward the 'herd immunity' ending but think it will take time to get there. But then, mine is as much a guess as anyone else's opinion.

In 2015 we had a Zika (sp?) scare - thousands of babies were born with birth defects after pregnant women contracted the virus. Five years later - only one case of this virus reported in the US - and scientists don't know why. Herd immunity? Didn't seem to be enough cases, they say, for that to have occurred. But that particular strain, for now, is not a concern. Even the results were not as predicted. Of the babies studied - 1/3 were as badly affected as predicted - but almost half of those born with brain/skull problems have begun to develop normally while others have gotten worse. Again, experts don't know why.

One of the most unlikely expectations of covid-19 is that we will quickly have a 'shot' that will end it. We will have vaccines - as quickly as possible - they will help some people but not others. I see that 'fact' being mentioned for the first time recently.

So far, many of the 'predictions' made in previous months have been wrong. Predictions are easy and get attention - but they are not facts.

In July in the US 25 children died of covid-19 related illness. In the same month, 140+ children died of abuse/neglect. One does not cancel or excuse the other but sometimes you have to step back to gain perspective. The 'news' is the kids had 'no underlying conditions' but do we know that? How many times have we seen high school sports stars who died unexpectedly due to an 'undiagnosed' heart or health problem?

It is normal that whatever story the media is focused on is something we think about. Yet the rate of death is still down and new cases in the US have also gone down a bit in recent days. Covid-19 is not going to disappear overnight - so somehow we must find ways to co-exist with it while getting on with our lives. One problem we have now is that humans cannot exist in a constant state of 'emergency - disaster - emergency'. Like an adrenaline rush, it wears off and leaves you exhausted and even disoriented....and grumpy.

One of the things I've told myself many times over the years is 'it is what it is - so deal with it'. When you run into something you can't change, that you think you can't handle or can't survive...the only choices are to give up or 'deal with it'. For me, dealing with the pandemic means doing what i can to keep myself and others protected - and getting on with life in a less-than-ideal world.

[Profit Traveler]

What a sig....

Just wait a second – so what you're telling me is that my chance of surviving all this is directly linked to the common sense of others? You’re kidding, right?

Truly Horrifying And accurate..

[Kay King]

When you don't even define the people making the inconsistent arguments, it's easy to score points.

If you want to use logic, you have to define your terms.

This is not an interrogation - or an opp to 'score points' - it is a discussion - a debate - comparison of ideas and opinions.

YOU 'don't even' get to tell other members what they can say....or how their version of 'logic' works.

The reason mods have deleted political and/or rude replies in this thread is not to be 'thought police' - but to KEEP this thread open. Threads that devolve into rude replies to other members end up closed and we want to be able to continue this thread. By all means, express your opinion (within the rules) but don't appoint yourself as judge of what others are allowed to say.

thank you


Hey - PT - now that someone finally notice the sig - I can change it ;-)

[Claude Whitacre]

Just got these figures from the CDC. In the US...

5.1 million cases. 163,000 deaths.

That comes to 3.2% (.032) of the cases resulting in deaths.

Does anyone have an explanation why this number is different from the 1-2% we keep reading and hearing about?

Are they counting cases differently? Deaths differently?

By the way, my Brother-in-law is out of the hospital. My wife's family keep telling each other how well he's doing....but I saw him on a Zoom call (with his brothers and sisters) and he wasn't the same man at all. He can hardly move, and couldn't remember his sister's or daughter's names.

An interesting facet of human nature is to pretend that someone (who is very sick) is getting better when they are obviously getting worse.

[Kay King]

I'm glad your brother-in-law is doing better....


My ex-brother-in-law who recovered after a long time on a ventilator - has also had memory problems. It has taken some time but physically he continues to improve - he's living at home alone again now.


However, his memory/cognitive ability is not good. Is that from covid-19? Or from weeks on a ventilator? Or because he's in his 80s?

Does anyone have an explanation why this number is different from the 1-2% we keep reading and hearing about?

I've wondered about that, too. I've read several articles that say the 'negative' tests are not always counted and I've wondered if that's the reason for the discrepancy.


In other words - 'deaths per thousand positive c-19 cases' would be higher than 'deaths per thousand citizens'.

[Odahh]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Just got these figures from the CDC. In the US...

Are they counting cases differently? Deaths differently?

By the way, my Brother-in-law is out of the hospital. My wife's family keep telling each other how well he's doing....but I saw him on a Zoom call (with his brothers and sisters) and he wasn't the same man at all. He can hardly move, and couldn't remember his sister's or daughter's names.

An interesting facet of human nature is to pretend that someone (who is very sick) is getting better when they are obviously getting worse.

the numbers coming in from so many different place are confusing.. by the looks of it they are going according to daily figures so yesterday 50.,000 people where confirmed with the virus and 500-1000 died from it .. in mid april when it was killing 2500 a day .. about 30,000 a day where being confirmed ..

and it is possible it was spreading a lot faster then ..but the testing was not up to par ..


profit traveler is half right ..we need testing .. but we need mass antibody testing ..because we have no clue how many people actually have contracted this ..

but that isn't much good until we have a few vaccines that as fauchi said are at least 50 percent effective ..

The US has had the worst time with it so far ..but we are still a rich country .. many poorer countries are starting to get hit with the virus with people having been locked down with no money for food.. starvation will be a problem in the near future .. along with the Virus raging out of control

[Matthew North]

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

Exactly. Have a look a New Zealand. They went in early and went in hard, and have now enjoyed over 100 days in a row of no community transmissions. This is what Kiwis can now safely do :



Crowds, yes crowds, are attending sporting events.

And yes, I am aware that NZ is in a fairly unique position in that it has no land borders, and a comparatively small population so it's been a lot easier, but Britain is similar in geography (ie island state), but look at how badly Britain has fared because of their half-hearted, half-arsed response to the pandemic.

I live in New Zealand so maybe I have something to contribute here. And by the way, we have reentered lockdown as of 12 noon tomorrow due to three new cases detected in Auckland, which is the largest city. The new cases are asymptomatic.

I think the government handled it well during lockdown, with good coordination with the police. There were stickers on almost every business and most people wore masks. Most businesses had stickers telling people to wear a mask, wash their hands, and practice social distancing.

People for the most part followed the rules, with a few notable exceptions ending up the newspapers.Government is giving relief to employers and people who were laid off. But I think as others have pointed out we are basically just a few islands in the middle of nowhere with a small population, yet maybe these things can be mirrored elsewhere.

Also, what are people's thoughts on how Sweden is handling the pandemic? They are not playing by the same rules but it seems to be working out for them.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Kay King

I've wondered about that, too. I've read several articles that say the 'negative' tests are not always counted and I've wondered if that's the reason for the discrepancy.


In other words - 'deaths per thousand positive c-19 cases' would be higher than 'deaths per thousand citizens'.

It was deaths per positive cases. That's where the 3.22% came from. It used to be higher, because they only counted the people who went into the hospital and were tested. Now, more people are being tested that don't require hospitalization. Who knows how seriously that affects the numbers?

Many of the tests (especially the earlier ones) had plenty of false positives and false negatives. Maybe that has something to do with it.

Also, people die in their homes, and aren't counted among the Covid cases. And people who are already very sick get Covid, and die. Maybe they were going to die a month later. Who knows about all these cases?

[Kay King]

It was deaths per positive cases.

That's what i thought - and that is not how death rates are computed according to epidemiologists. Deaths per million population is the measure that is recommended. So the question is why use a more 'shocking' rate when it's not the standard way to computer the number? Clearly gets more attention...

I think all of us have to keep a certain amount of skepticism when we read 'this is happening' and probably most of us do that. if a fact is true - questioning the truth of that fact won't change the fact.

Also, people die in their homes, and aren't counted among the Covid cases. And people who are already very sick get Covid, and die. Maybe they were going to die a month later. Who knows about all these cases?

I remember reports early on that in hospices in NY - terminal patients who died of cancer and then tested positive for covid-19 after death....were counted as covid deaths. I've also read articles saying people dying in hospitals of pneumonia and 'seasonal' flu were being counted as 'covid'. I don't know the truth of it - but I read the reason was that hospitals were getting reimbursement of some kind for covid cases. Don't know where that came from though.

[Odahh]

Originally Posted by Kay King

That's what i thought - and that is not how death rates are computed according to epidemiologists. Deaths per million population is the measure that is recommended. So the question is why use a more 'shocking' rate when it's not the standard way to computer the number? Clearly gets more attention...

I think all of us have to keep a certain amount of skepticism when we read 'this is happening' and probably most of us do that. if a fact is true - questioning the truth of that fact won't change the fact.

.

Key .. the death rate per million does not matter at this point as we are still at the start of the spread of the virus .. the percentage of people who get the virus and die is more important ... to measuring progress with the outbreak ..

so at this point ..what people need to know is their risk of dying if they catch this .. based on age and heath conditions ..the numbers in the first few months ..are probably not as good as what we have now .. with better testing day by day and tracking f death dayly .. so today this many people tested positive for it and this many people died ..

is probably the best indicator of progress we can use at this point ..as the totals do not help manageing the day to day realities of what to do .. right now

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Kay King

That's what i thought - and that is not how death rates are computed according to epidemiologists. Deaths per million population is the measure that is recommended. .

It's all important to know. "Deaths per number of cases" tells us the lethality of the virus. "Deaths by population" tells us how much it has spread.


Personally, I want to know how many people have it per thousand (it's a tad more than 1% of the US now). But knowing the percentage of people who die from it, after contracting it...is the number that bothers me the most. And it's useful to me to know how many die segmented by gender, race, age groups. All good to know.

Originally Posted by Kay King

I remember reports early on that in hospices in NY - terminal patients who died of cancer and then tested positive for covid-19 after death....were counted as covid deaths.

Even if that were true (It may not be) it would count for a very...very small number of deaths. The number of people in hospitals with terminal cancer...who caught Covid just before they died? That can't be many. My psychic powers put that number at 4. And remember, I'm certified as the Forum's most powerful psychic.

Originally Posted by Kay King

've also read articles saying people dying in hospitals of pneumonia and 'seasonal' flu were being counted as 'covid'. I don't know the truth of it - but I read the reason was that hospitals were getting reimbursement of some kind for covid cases. Don't know where that came from though.

I don't think that's accurate. Cause of death is determined by an autopsy (if they die in a hospital). Fudging those reports would be incredibly stupid. Just get caught once, and you're no longer a doctor.

[lanfear63]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Just got these figures from the CDC. In the US...

5.1 million cases. 163,000 deaths.

That comes to 3.2% (.032) of the cases resulting in deaths.

Does anyone have an explanation why this number is different from the 1-2% we keep reading and hearing about?

Are they counting cases differently? Deaths differently?

By the way, my Brother-in-law is out of the hospital. My wife's family keep telling each other how well he's doing....but I saw him on a Zoom call (with his brothers and sisters) and he wasn't the same man at all. He can hardly move, and couldn't remember his sister's or daughter's names.

An interesting facet of human nature is to pretend that someone (who is very sick) is getting better when they are obviously getting worse.

My life long friend has been months out of the hospital after having a heart attack and nearly dying. He was a prolific e-mailer before his attack. Have not heard anything from his wife of late and no contact from him via email. it's obvious he is either physically or mentally incapacitated, or both. I suspect he's "Not the same man" just like your brother-inlaw. He was as sharp as a button before.

As to the death figures, I expect they are "overall" but in recent months, having experience of the virus, the medics have a better handle on what to do to prevent death. As well as that, the percentage that died were more the older population before, now we are getting the younger, not so many dying. So the figures are mostly made up from the earlier deaths.

[DWolfe]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

It's all important to know.
Even if that were true (It may not be) it would count for a very...very small number of deaths. The number of people in hospitals with terminal cancer...who caught Covid just before they died? That can't be many. My psychic powers put that number at 4. And remember, I'm certified as the Forum's most powerful psychic.


I don't think that's accurate. Cause of death is determined by an autopsy (if they die in a hospital). Fudging those reports would be incredibly stupid. Just get caught once, and you're no longer a doctor.

Two things come to mind in your reply to Kay, more of question.

One of the big issues with NY was they put Covid -19 patients in Senior citizens homes. Those that were exposed might exaggerated the number. Because if the sick were not sent there some of the Seniors living there may still be alive today or would of died in a few months anyway

Second thing wouldn't hospitals just put Natural Causes on the Death Certificate or Assume they died of Covid if they came in with that instead of an Autopsy. Especially how busy some hospitals are in the North East.They asked my family if we wanted a Autopsy when my Dad passed away and we declined. So my impression is they don't always do them.

On another note in the New York Post the other day their was a article about Neck Gaiters being worse than wearing no masks because it breaks up the large dropplets and makes it easier to contract. Here is one from another site looks like the same story https://www.cleveland.com/coronaviru...udy-finds.html

Disclaimer - I use a N-95 mask before anyone thinks I'm against masks.

[lanfear63]

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

Exactly. Have a look a New Zealand. They went in early and went in hard, and have now enjoyed over 100 days in a row of no community transmissions. This is what Kiwis can now safely do :



Crowds, yes crowds, are attending sporting events.

And yes, I am aware that NZ is in a fairly unique position in that it has no land borders, and a comparatively small population so it's been a lot easier, but Britain is similar in geography (ie island state), but look at how badly Britain has fared because of their half-hearted, half-arsed response to the pandemic.

How dare you insult the British. Britain is tiny and has a population over 66 million. I would say they are doing rather well being so cramped.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by DWolfe

Two things come to mind in your reply to Kay, more of question.

One of the big issues with NY was they put Covid -19 patients in Senior citizens homes. Those that were exposed might exaggerated the number. Because if the sick were not sent there some of the Seniors living there may still be alive today or would of died in a few months anyway.

Yup. I read from several reliable sources that about 4,500 recovering Covid patients in NY were sent to nursing homes. A huge mistake, I think. Not sure what precautions were taken.

Originally Posted by DWolfe

Second thing wouldn't hospitals just put Natural Causes on the Death Certificate or Assume they died of Covid if they came in with that instead of an Autopsy. Especially how busy some hospitals are in the North East.They asked my family if we wanted a Autopsy when my Dad passed away and we declined. So my impression is they don't always do them.

My Dad died from cancer. They did an autopsy anyway, because he died in the hospital.

My Mom died in a nursing home, and they didn't do one.

"Twenty-seven states require it if the cause of death is suspected to be from a public health threat, such as a fast-spreading disease or tainted food." WEB MD.

I remember being told by my Dad's Oncologist that an autopsy was done because he died in the hospital. That may only be for the state, but I assumed it was a law country wide. Live and learn.

[whateverpedia]

Originally Posted by Matthew North

I live in New Zealand so maybe I have something to contribute here. And by the way, we have reentered lockdown as of 12 noon tomorrow due to three new cases detected in Auckland, which is the largest city. The new cases are asymptomatic.

I think the government handled it well during lockdown, with good coordination with the police. There were stickers on almost every business and most people wore masks. Most businesses had stickers telling people to wear a mask, wash their hands, and practice social distancing.

People for the most part followed the rules, with a few notable exceptions ending up the newspapers.Government is giving relief to employers and people who were laid off. But I think as others have pointed out we are basically just a few islands in the middle of nowhere with a small population, yet maybe these things can be mirrored elsewhere.

Also, what are people's thoughts on how Sweden is handling the pandemic? They are not playing by the same rules but it seems to be working out for them.

I know. In the space of about 48 hours since i posted that NZ recorded 4 new case which means the lockdown restarts.

Which just goes to show, complacency is just as big an enemy as the virus itself.

[Kay King]

the death rate per million does not matter at this point as we are still at the start of the spread of the virus .. the percentage of people who get the virus and die is more important ... to measuring progress with the outbreak ..

It strongly disagree - and hoe would you know that we are 'still at the start of the spread' or not. None of us know that.



I agree the number of deaths per XX cases is important - but the standardized measurement by epidemiology is deaths/million people. My point is you have to choose WHICH measurement will be usd and then be consistent with that particular equation. OR you define the measures and give numbers for both equations.


You can't use one until the other one is 'more shocking' and then switch and I think that's happening in the media at times.

[Kay King]

On a positive note - I just watched a presentation by a local school system and I'm impressed at how they are 'managing'.


70% of the students of this large school chose to attend school in person whiule 30% opted for online class


They have clear vinyl 'curtains' separating the teacher/blackboard/lecture area from students - not a full barrier but acts as large 'mask' perhaps. From the dividers on the desk areas to the designs added to lunch areas and the changes in schedules, it's clear a lot of thought went into this to protect students and teachers



In several local elementary and kindergarten children are using the clear plastic face shields that cover their entire. Not as restrictive for the child and perhaps better protection than a mask. Expert say 'better because it covers eyes as well and is less restrictive' and the next expert says 'but may not catch all of the tiny droplets'....oh well... I'd say if you can find something young children will WEAR - it's a win win.



Also locally (and other areas as well, I'm sure) some small business are changing to 'bring your kid to work' and setting up rooms where kids can do online classes while parents are working....and approved daycares are opening to provide care along with help with online classes during hours when parents must work. It seems people are adapting and creating solutions as best they can.



So many sports like BigTen have been cancelled till spring - I'm sure it's disappointing for many but I think it was a smart decision.

[whateverpedia]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

By the way, my Brother-in-law is out of the hospital. My wife's family keep telling each other how well he's doing....but I saw him on a Zoom call (with his brothers and sisters) and he wasn't the same man at all. He can hardly move, and couldn't remember his sister's or daughter's names.

Exactly. We don't (and can't as yet) know what the long term effects are going to be for those who "recover" from it.

I see two possible outcomes (no doubt there are many others):

1) The person builds an immunity to COVID19, that also helps build an immunity to other diseases/viruses/bacteria;
2) The person's immune system gets so ravaged by it that a normally non-fatal disease (eg common cold) becomes lethal.

I have no medical training whatsoever, apart from a First Aid course about 20 years ago. however I tend to believe that scenario 2 is the most likely outcome.

Then again, I know as much (read as little) as anyone else. We're all flying blind into, and hopefully, out of this crisis.

I'm sorry if this post is rambling and incoherent, but despite all the other existential threats I've (we've) faced, from nuclear war, to terrorist attacks, to pandemics to the implosion of the financial system in 2008/9, this is the first one that actually scares me.

Be safe everyone, and hopefully we'll all live to tell our survival stories on the other side.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Kay King

You can't use one until the other one is 'more shocking' and then switch and I think that's happening in the media at times.

I agree. And I agree that this is happening (and worse) in the "cable news".

Both sides are editing the information to make the pandemic either sound much worse than it is, or much better than it is.

Personally, I think we can all handle the truth. And the figures are the truth, at least as close as we can get to it. One of the most depressing things to me is that I have to "Fact check" reports by commentators that I used to trust.

Even the best of them edit out information that does against the agenda.

A few months ago, I stupidly posted that I wasn't worried, until there were 5,000 cases in Ohio. Silently I thought it would never get that far.

Well, now there are 102,000 cases in Ohio. And about 1.5% of the entire population has been tested positive. To me, that makes it real...and next door.

The good news is that now the majority of people are wearing masks...and just about everyone that came in our store today had one on. A real step in the right direction, I think.

[Odahh]

Originally Posted by Kay King

It strongly disagree - and hoe would you know that we are 'still at the start of the spread' or not. None of us know that.



I agree the number of deaths per XX cases is important - but the standardized measurement by epidemiology is deaths/million people. My point is you have to choose WHICH measurement will be usd and then be consistent with that particular equation. OR you define the measures and give numbers for both equations.


You can't use one until the other one is 'more shocking' and then switch and I think that's happening in the media at times.

an epidemiologist talking to other epidemiologists and medical professions who understand the death per million number means ..and how it is figured out .. will find it a usefull . it is a number they can work with ..

now you can tell that to the general public .. and then they have to get out their cell phones .. search for the population of the usa .. divide 327 million by a million and multiply 327 by what ever the deaths per million where .. to get an idea of how many people died on a daily basis ..

or you can just tell them how many people died on a daily basis ..and how many people confirmed cases there where on a daily basis ..

[DWolfe]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I remember being told by my Dad's Oncologist that an autopsy was done because he died in the hospital. That may only be for the state, but I assumed it was a law country wide. Live and learn.

You could be right, it maybe a countrywide law. I just assumed that my Dad was not in the hospital when he past they rushed him there. That's where they asked us the immediate family.

Thank You

[Mark Singletary]

Here's some more about death rates and how they are counted:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/covid-19.htm
https://www.worldometers.info/corona...us-death-rate/

That second page is interesting. From what I gather looking at known cases is not a good way to get a death rate because of the probability of many asymptomic or untested cases.

They give an example of testing people in New York for antibodies and then looking at the case/death rate. Their result is 10x the reported real cases and 2x the death rate.

The death rate = confirmed COVID death rate (lab tested) + probable deaths due to COVID (lots of pneumonia and flu for years but they would probably be counted as probable COVID death) + excessive death rates (compared to previous years for this timeframe).

Excessive death rate is interesting. It's something the CDC does. If the average deaths in May over the last few years = 100,000 people died and this May 105,345 people died they are counting some of those as COVID deaths after the fact.

Mark

[Kay King]

now you can tell that to the general public .. and then they have to get out their cell phones .. search for the population of the usa .. divide 327 million by a million and multiply 327 by what ever the deaths per million where .. to get an idea of how many people died on a daily basis ..

Just to go https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ and the infor is there and updated several times a day.


I just read that the 'nursing home dispute' on numbers in NY is not only that nursing/care homes were required to take in positive covid cases (that part is documented) but also on claims that dying patients were transferred to hospitals and not counted as 'nursing home deaths'.


There so many 'moving parts' it's easy to get lost in the details, isn't it?

[perryny]

Originally Posted by Kay King

There so many 'moving parts' it's easy to get lost in the details, isn't it?

164k dead.

Even if we're off by many thousands, still pretty crystal clear to me.

This problem ain't fixable by us keep doing what we're doing.

[Odahh]

Originally Posted by perryny

164k dead.

Even if we're off by many thousands, still pretty crystal clear to me.

This problem ain't fixable by us keep doing what we're doing.

so we need to start resurrecting people from the dead ..to convince you there is any progress .

so unless the number of people who have already died from covid goes down .. we will always be doing the wrong thing

[perryny]

Originally Posted by Odahh

so we need to start resurrecting people from the dead ..to convince you there is any progress .

so unless the number of people who have already died from covid goes down .. we will always be doing the wrong thing

What? No. As long as the number of people who continue to get sick and die keeps going up, we are doing the wrong thing.

And based on what's going on across the country right now, the number is just going to keep going up. Big time.

You're convinced we're making progress?

[Matthew North]

According to worldometers.info the cases worldwide stopped increasing exponentially near the end of July. Could mean a lot of things, and still early days, but this is a hopeful sign. What I hope is that it has reached its peak like how it peaked in many countries around the world. Additional waves are what worries me.

I've read that there are other coronaviruses that are seasonal, so perhaps this will become another virus that we see every year or so.

[luciesmazanska]

I was readin officialy there is a vaccine already tested and approved by Russians

[kenmichaels]

Originally Posted by luciesmazanska

I was readin officialy there is a vaccine already tested and approved by Russians

I don't think any American will trust it.

[kenmichaels]

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

Ken, I do not like to stir up the pot. I am the most laidback guy you'd ever meet.

I must have you mixed up with a different mark then, sorry.

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

What I don't like are inconsistent arguments.

For example, some have touted Bill Gates as the virus guru we should all listen to.

Yet, when he said last week kids should go back to school all the sudden it seems he's not our guru anymore. Or, people don't accept it after praising him for months.

Yeah, well, can you blame them? No one wants their kid to be the one in a million with no underlying conditions who dies.It's terrifying. As a parent I fully understand the recoil, I also understand, most kids have parents and most parents have parents. So even if most of the kids are indeed safe, its still a "gotcha" and I believe that most people who do believe Covid is dangerous, knows that, and it would not have mattered who said it. People are loyal to the cause that align with their beliefs or the ones they think will keep them alive.

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

Another example. They say just follow the example of the countries that have whipped it. Logical argument, right? Until it falls apart.

I for one don't think any country has whipped it yet and I don't think any one (country) can whip it alone. Global finance and trade has become a like a giant bowl of spaghetti mixing everything we value together, so unless we cut each other off completely...I don't see it happening in any grand way, i see lots and lots of waves eating individual cities, providence's, towns. etc.

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

For example, everyone (including me) says how good and important masks are (I wear them everytime I leave my house).

Good. Me too. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

Yet, New Zealand did not push mask usage. In fact, in an article from just a few days ago, the government said that if there is another outbreak the government may have a new mask rule which is different from how it's operated the last several months.

So, on the one hand people say follow the example of New Zealand or wherever. But, then they aren't wiling to follow their example on masks.

I think that's a fair point and I'm interested int he answer to that as well.

Some of the news that's been slowly breaking over the last few weeks is that previous inoculations have different degrees of efficacy for COVID including the common flu vaccines. If this is true, this may explain a lot things.

I don't know anything about anything, I have to interpret everything I digest and I do it assuming I am wrong.

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

I believe in the virus. I am worried because I'm in one of those categories of people that better not get it. It's affected my income and our business. I don't know the answers and I hope they find answers soon.

Sorry to hear that, stay diligent, it's the fools who will do you in.
...and don't get lax on the mask, it's so easy to do when among friends.

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

But it's almost impossible to have a conversation with people about this without it becoming political or personal. Inconsistency doesn't help.

Mark

The Inconsistency is coming from the top down and that's a major part of the problem.

Inconsistent lock-downs,
Inconsistent rules,
Inconsistent understanding,
and on and on.

Stay safe Mark.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

I don't think any American will trust it.

Maybe I would.

After all, somebody has to be first, and it doesn't have to be the US.

Russia has scientists. Every country has scientists. I'm assuming every country has researchers working on a vaccine.

The reports I saw says that Russia has a vaccine. It also says that the vaccine isn't thoroughly tested.

I don't believe anything I hear from Russia. Just as I don't believe anything I hear about Russia. Propaganda is a global tool. It's used by everyone.

If the US got some of the vaccine to test, I think we might uses it after a few months of trials. But who knows?