[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by TobiMDD

It's already proven that they can not stop the virus and are just a political instrument to make people aware of this fake pandemic.

This is a serious question. I'm not trying to be smart here. I really want to know what you think..

You said it was a "Fake pandemic".

Does that mean;


A million people haven't died from the virus?

The WHO and CDC (In the US) are making it up?

The relatives of the dead are lying about it, to cover up the conspiracy?

All the virologists are lying about the effects of the pandemic, and the effectiveness of masks?

Every government is lying about all the numbers from around the world?


I'm not joking. I'm trying to understand your thought.

[kenmichaels]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I'm not joking. I'm trying to understand your thought.

Good luck with that, if he is anything like some of my brothers, that's a moving target.

Ive asked them everyone of those questions you did and the answers randomly change,
they also become less and less based in anything resembling reality.

We are all over educated and raised in the same house with the same parents.
I dont get it.

[Dan Riffle]

Originally Posted by tagiscom

Time Magazine, lol, mass media.

Sweden has one death per day on average, with no masks or lockdowns.

And sure it was bad initially with retirement homes, (not as bad as NY, theres was through the roof).

This was Sweden last week.

Sweden - No Lockdowns, No Masks, No Insanity - YouTube

No fear, no masks and no cops wresting people to the ground.

Where in the world do you get your numbers? Sweden has 5,929 COVID-related deaths, ranking them 29th most in the world.

They have 586 deaths per million, ranking them 16th worst in the world.

They are 90th in the world in population size.

https://www.worldometers.info/corona...=homeAdvegas1?

Those numbers do not equate to success.

Don't like the numbers from worldometers.info?

How about Johns Hopkins? https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

Wait! Johns Hopkins is in on it (whatever it is)!!!

How about Statista?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...de-by-country/


Further, compare Sweden's death rate to its neighbors. What do you find?


And I'll take Time Magazine, such that it is, over a random Youtube video any day of the week.

[Kay King]

The US has 33 times the population of Sweden...if you took the covid deaths in sweden (rounded to 6000) and multiply by 33....you have about the same death rate as in the US.


Sweden 'did it differently' but paid the price, too, just as other countries have.



The worst part of the arguments is the assumption that if you 'get it right' or 'do the right things' - you solve the covid problem. It really doesn't work that way in this pandemic.

[tagiscom]

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

Where in the world do you get your numbers? Sweden has 5,929 COVID-related deaths, ranking them 29th most in the world.

They have 586 deaths per million, ranking them 16th worst in the world.

They are 90th in the world in population size.

https://www.worldometers.info/corona...=homeAdvegas1?

Those numbers do not equate to success.

Don't like the numbers from worldometers.info?

How about Johns Hopkins? https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

Wait! Johns Hopkins is in on it (whatever it is)!!!

How about Statista?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...de-by-country/

Further, compare Sweden's death rate to its neighbors. What do you find?

And I'll take Time Magazine, such that it is, over a random Youtube video any day of the week.

Oook, bent companies and instantiations are rife, as it was shown in the previous global hysteria, but the real data is there.

https://pandemic.internationalsos.co...-visualisation

Scroll down and then go through the listings to add Sweden.



Sweden did screw up initially, but it got its act together,

And sure the US population is bigger so it being greater than Sweden in January for daily deaths is dubious, but the rest of the timeline, shows what is really happening.

Sweden is going in the opposite direction to virtually every other key country on the planet, (the ones that typically push masks and lockdowns).

Australia is similar to Sweden, but not because of the lock and muzzle ideal, just because we are isolated from the rest of the world.

This is the European CDC, source.

"All medical professionals globally say that masks work", l guess they must be lousy at reading charts?

[Declan O Flaherty]

Originally Posted by Kay King

The US has 33 times the population of Sweden...if you took the covid deaths in sweden (rounded to 6000) and multiply by 33....you have about the same death rate as in the US.


Sweden 'did it differently' but paid the price, too, just as other countries have.

Unfortunately the opposite is true, Kay. Sweden didn't do things differently; everyone else did.

Sweden did better than every country that locked their citizens down and mandated masks. Even if their deaths were a little higher from the virus, the saved lives from no shut down puts them right at the top of the success pile.

The sad part is, we knew this from the start. I wouldn't have said, on a public forum, 4 months ago... that Sweden will prove the lie, if I wasn't certain of it. It was obvious. The first thing that goes out the window when these things come about, is common sense.

Originally Posted by Kay King

The worst part of the arguments is the assumption that if you 'get it right' or 'do the right things' - you solve the covid problem. It really doesn't work that way in this pandemic.

Only the people who believed the lie of a deadly virus capable of killing 20 million people thought their was a problem to solve. There was only ever one way to deal with this. Quarantine the vulnerable, and let the healthy keep driving the economy. It's what we've always done.

They thrashed Sweden when they got it right. They thrashed a safe drug that has been used for 65 years. They silence anyone who spoke out against the lie.
Like these Doctors who keep trying to warn us.,..

https://www.bitchute.com/video/R16bRjYaARtt/

Mainstream scum media silence anyone who speaks out. That video above was removed from MSM. Why? Do we not have the right to hear the other side of the story? What are they so afraid of? Are these Doctors whack jobs? Have they more to lose, or more to gain by telling you their side?

As George Carlin once said: It's a big club, and you aint in it.

[Kay King]

Tagiscom is the one who said Sweden did it differently and was claiming that country did much better than others...simply not true. Look at the numbers.

Only the people who believed the lie of a deadly virus capable of killing 20 million people thought their was a problem to solve. There was only ever one way to deal with this. Quarantine the vulnerable, and let the healthy keep driving the economy. It's what we've always done.

I agree with that - my stance all along is that 'shutting down' for a couple weeks in order to get protocols in place made sense....as a plan to combat the virus, keeping an economy closed doesn't make any sense at all. I think much of what we are fed as news is meant to get attention rather to inform - but that's not new.

That said, I do not believe these conspiracies and don't know why people would spread them. Are you saying 'don't wear a mask' - if so, stay away from me and my family because we take every precaution while getting on with our lives at the same time. If we 'err on the side of caution' - so be it.

In my state, the law says 'mask' - and almost every person I see in groceries, etc - is properly wearing a mask now. However, the number of cases in this county has more than doubled in the past two weeks. Should we dump the masks and see if the number quadruples? Seriously?


As for "they do this" or "they do that" - understand this: political commentary will not be tolerated. That is not negotiable nor a game mods will play with you. The last person that repeatedly ignored that rule was given a 'vacation' till after the US election. Take the hint, please.


The chance of me spending 45 minutes watching a conspiracy video is..how do I put this...zero.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty

Like these Doctors who keep trying to warn us.,..

https://www.bitchute.com/video/R16bRjYaARtt/

Why in the world do you believe these are doctors? I watched the first 20 seconds or so. They are obviously not doctors. What hospital are they working in? What are their names?

This video was insulting.

Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty

Mainstream scum media silence anyone who speaks out. That video above was removed from MSM. Why? Do we not have the right to hear the other side of the story? What are they so afraid of? Are these Doctors whack jobs? Have they more to lose, or more to gain by telling you their side?

As George Carlin once said: It's a big club, and you aint in it.

It was removed from MSN and Youtube because it was obviously spreading a nonsensical conspiracy theory.

[TobiMDD]

Originally Posted by Jeffery

Are you saying that you believe the virus does exist and the pandemic does not exist?

You do know that a pandemic is defined as “an epidemic occurring worldwide, or over a very wide area, crossing international boundaries and usually affecting a large number of people”?

My point is that the actions from gonvernments against it are nonsense. More below.

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

A million people haven't died from the virus?

There is a difference between dying with and dying from the virus - I heard from lots of cases where people actually died from something else but since they had a positive test they are counted as corona dead.

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

The WHO and CDC (In the US) are making it up?

Money and Power...

You need to ask serious questions of what they might get out of it...
Bill Gates himself said in an interview a few years ago that he wants to reduce the world population with vaccines and he is one of the biggest donor of WHO and other organizations that control media etc..
Of course thats not a proof now to convince you here. It's just a small example that there are incredible entanglements. If you just hear it out of my mouth I understand that it sounds crazy without sources.

I know also about lots of different reasons why they might do it- I'm not Jesus and know the exact reason but there are endless possibilities that make sense and some of them are not just plain theories because you will see in future how they might introduce things into our life thanks to the 'pandemic' which nobody would have accepted without it. They are using it.

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

The relatives of the dead are lying about it, to cover up the conspiracy?

No I don't think so. They probably lost their loved ones because of it. The question here is rather why did people not get an interview when they lost someone because of the flu in for example 2018?

Right, because nobody cared. Sad but true.

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

All the virologists are lying about the effects of the pandemic, and the effectiveness of masks?

I can only speak for germany because I'm not up to date for other countries.
We have one (maybe two) main virologist who is best friend with government- he has and spreads his opinion of the scary virus in tv etc.

The fun part is that we have on the other hand- Idk the exact numbers but meanwhile over 700 doctors that are not confirm with his opinion- but guess what? Do they talk with them? No. Do they get an invitation to take part in discussions in TV? No.

This is whats wrong here. If the politicans really just want to do the right things to save the population why they are afraid to talk with those who are the goddamn experts in this field? lol?

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Every government is lying about all the numbers from around the world?

What would be more important in a real pandemic? People with a positive test or people who are actually sick?
Right, people who are sick. However the numbers you see worldwide are just the results of their testing - and the test is not even able to prove that they have the virus- the test can only tell that there is a part of this virus inside the body- not the whole thing. Sorry for my english, I could explain it better in german haha.
But lets pretend the test is able to verify the virus , there is the other problem with the wrong positive tests here which increases the number of cases.

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I'm not joking. I'm trying to understand your thought.

No problem, hope you understand it now a bit better what I mean

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by TobiMDD

There is a difference between dying with and dying from the virus - I heard from lots of cases where people actually died from something else but since they had a positive test they are counted as corona dead.

I don't know about other countries, only the US.

But the CDC and WHO counted the number that died while having Covid, and that Covid was the probable cause. For example, an elderly person with cancer. They may have lived for a few years, but if they die on a ventilator, the actual cause of death that day was almost certainly Covid. So that would be a Covid death.

If they were tested positive, and had a brain aneurism, that would probably not be counted as a Covid death, because it was the brain aneurism that killed them that day..

Originally Posted by TobiMDD

Money and Power...

You need to ask serious questions of what they might get out of it...

The CDC gets the same funding every year. A pandemic just makes their job harder. They don't get paid more because they are trying to inform us of the accurate numbers in the pandemic. Same with the WHO. They don't get paid based on how many die, or who gets infected. They are an information gathering and advising entity. They don't produce drugs, provide treatment, or sell anything.

Originally Posted by TobiMDD

No I don't think so. They probably lost their loved ones because of it. The question here is rather why did people not get an interview when they lost someone because of the flu in for example 2018?
Right, because nobody cared. Sad but true.

The reason the survivors of Covid are interviewed is because the virus is new. And the rate of infections and deaths skyrocketed for several months.

If suddenly, a thousand people a day died from a new disease...any disease...it would be the same coverage. And media has a job (except hard news). Their job is to get more viewers. Unfortunately, that means talking about bad news almost exclusively, and the most current source of bad news. Right now, that's the pandemic.

Originally Posted by TobiMDD

I can only speak for germany because I'm not up to date for other countries.
We have one (maybe two) main virologist who is best friend with government- he has and spreads his opinion of the scary virus in tv etc.

The fun part is that we have on the other hand- Idk the exact numbers but meanwhile over 700 doctors that are not confirm with his opinion- but guess what? Do they talk with them? No. Do they get an invitation to take part in discussions in TV? No.

This is whats wrong here. If the politicans really just want to do the right things to save the population why they are afraid to talk with those who are the goddamn experts in this field? lol?

A politician's job is to get elected, and then to do their job. A doctor (or anyone in the medical profession) has the job of treating people and saving lives. Again, I don't know about other countries...

But in the US, the vast majority of doctors and immunologists tell the truth, because to lie would cost them their jobs. And any reporter (working for a real news source) would lose their job if they made up a story, or promoted a story they knew wasn't true. And immunologist are the ones that really know about Covid. In the US, they are universally agreeing that it's a serious pandemic, masks help, and it isn't going away soon (like this year). So, I'll trust the experts.

Originally Posted by TobiMDD

But lets pretend the test is able to verify the virus , there is the other problem with the wrong positive tests here which increases the number of cases.

There ae both false positives and false negatives. That's why most people that are tested positive are tested again, usually the next day.

Since almost nobody is tested daily, it's far more likely to have the virus, and not be showing symptoms, than not have the virus and be tested positive

So, there are almost certainly more people with the virus than are being counted. But that also means the deaths per thousand (who have the virus) are probably inflated a little.

But the CDC and WHO have to go with the information that hospitals give them. Again, I don't know how other countries work, but in the US, the numbers are pretty accurate.

As I assume they are in most countries.

[kenmichaels]

Claude
TobiMDD sounds exactly like my brother, right down to the bill gates de-population scheme.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

Claude
TobiMDD sounds exactly like my brother, right down to the bill gates de-population scheme.

I ignored that part, because I had no idea what he was talking about. And I try to stick to things I'm pretty certain are true.

[Odahh]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I ignored that part, because I had no idea what he was talking about. And I try to stick to things I'm pretty certain are true.

it is very easy to understand how people believe that even if it is false as bill gates during a speech mention getting the future population growth down ..with a combination vaccines,education and economic growth ..so when bill gates somewhere between 1-2 billion fewer humans added to the population in 40-50 years because of these programs..

people envisioned death camps and other way of murdering people verse reducing birth rates by increasing survivability of children and creating much better economic conditions for the family

the same way gate pretty much predicting several years ago a similar type of spread to covid instead of being a prediction based on a pattern epidemiologist have been saying was a vulnerability for 30 years ..some people believe gates was just announcing the evil plan of the globalists ..for the coronavirus

PS don't quote me and argue with me as if i believe the conspiracy theories just because i understand how the can arrive at such bad theories

[perryny]

Apparently, South Dakota is now #2 in the US for Cases per Million.

Back around Aug.10th or so, they were at about 100 cases per day. Today they are around 1000.

This is why we can't have nice things.

[Kay King]

This is why we can't have nice things.

Love the humor!!!


The dakotas are #1 and #2 for 'cases per millions' but that doesn't tell the whole story....South Dakota is #32 for deaths/million....and it's that number that is most critical IMO.



If I recall correctly, South Dakota did not do the 'closures' that many others states did...reason was due to the sparse population. Maybe this is the result....but if so - how is it the death rate doesn't match the infection rate?


Maybe the death rate just lags behind? Looks like 1/3 of the SD deaths occurred in October and that is not the trend other states have seen.

[Mark Singletary]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Why in the world do you believe these are doctors? I watched the first 20 seconds or so. They are obviously not doctors. What hospital are they working in? What are their names?

I've watched the video. They are doctors who work in various capacities. I've done my own research on that part outside the video.

And apparently some people choose which doctors they listen to. I've brought this up before. One guy with a sterling record and credentials with 20 years experience is a no good lying bum while another guy with the same record and experience who works for the government is someone to listen to.

This video was insulting.

Why would you say that since you only watched the first 20 seconds? You've apparently made up your mind without being willing to look at anything else.

It was removed from MSN and Youtube because it was obviously spreading a nonsensical conspiracy theory.

Again, you don't know what was in it. Yet you are attacking the video.

Newsflash, just because MSN (or whoever) does something doesn't mean it's right or they don't have their own agenda.

The video is about using hydroxychloroquine as a treatment. They insist that their patients are recovering with the use if given early enough in the treatment along with zinc and an antibiotic.

Mark

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Kay King

Love the humor!!!


The dakotas are #1 and #2 for 'cases per millions' but that doesn't tell the whole story....So.South Dakota is #32 for deaths/million....and it's that number that is most critical IMO..

To me, each number tells a different story. "Cases per million" tell me how fast the virus is spreading in a state (or country), and is usually a few weeks to a couple of months behind the numbers of deaths.

To me, the number of cases tells the story of the policies, restrictions, precautions in place.

The number of deaths tells my about the victims. The concentration of old people, or younger people. And it also may reflect the care they receive and the number of available ICU beds at one time.

Originally Posted by Kay King

If I recall correctly, South Dakota did not do the 'closures' that many others states did...reason was due to the sparse population. .

To me, that's even scarier. I get it when a huge city gets bombarded...but Farmers? Ranchers? That tells me that it's easier for this to spread than we thought before.

Maybe these people just all go to bars on the weekend?

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

I've watched the video. They are doctors who work in various capacities. I've done my own research on that part outside the video.

Mark; You did your research. Then you can tell us the names of the doctors and what hospitals they work at. How many Covid patients have they treated in a hospital?

Certainly they are mostly virologists and epidemiologists. But even if they are just all MDs, that good enough.

[perryny]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Maybe these people just all go to bars on the weekend?

What else are you going to do if there's no motorcycle rallies or state fairs to go to?

[perryny]

Originally Posted by Kay King

The dakotas are #1 and #2 for 'cases per millions' but that doesn't tell the whole story....South Dakota is #32 for deaths/million....and it's that number that is most critical IMO.

Is covid contained and under control, or is it spreading wildly?

That's the only story that matters.

In my hometown of NYC, it's largely contained and under control. I go to work in the office, I ride the subway, I eat in restaurants, my kid goes to school. I know of no one who's gotten sick anywhere near me in a long time. One elementary school nearby reported 2 cases several weeks ago and none since. My kid's high school has had zero cases so far.

In rural SD, it's spreading wildly.

Why?

Everyone knows the answer (even the clowns a few posts up).

All the chart reading and number crunching by us citizens is just a ridiculous, pointless distraction now.

[Mark Singletary]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Mark; You did your research. Then you can tell us the names of the doctors and what hospitals they work at. How many Covid patients have they treated in a hospital?

Certainly they are mostly virologists and epidemiologists. But even if they are just all MDs, that good enough.

I'd have to find my research again. But it would be a waste of time I'm afraid.

I like you but I don't believe that you or most people are willing to listen to anything not accepted by the mainstream.

IF a doctor has years of experience, no problems with their license, is treating COVID patients successfully, etc. and says masks don't help or take hydroxychloroquine would you accept it? Honestly? What if it's a team of doctors that says that? What if it's hundreds of doctors that say that?

What would it take for you or others to even look at any other possible answers? It's kind of like if what we've been doing isn't working, then to get a different result we have to try something else. Yet, the answers are all more of the same. For months now.

This thread is full of smart people who sell things with their words but can't see they might be sold something. If something is repeated enough, it becomes the accepted truth.

People have their agendas. People have to make a living. People are on different sides politically.

And unfortunately, many people have made up their mind. And nothing anyone can say will help change their mind.

Besides at this point, like someone mentioned above, mask wearers aren't going to stop including me just because someone else does it differently and anti-mask people aren't going to start wearing them. Lockdowns and other restrictions are out of our control. Vaccines are a personal choice (at this point).

The only point in some of this speculation, looking at alternatives, etc. is to cut down on some of the vitriol that has taken over and helps no one. It would be nice to read a news article, for example, which wasn't critical of leader's decisions or actions after demanding leadership, a plan, change, etc. It's like you are damned if you do or damned if you don't.

The blame game, the double standards, the confusing messages from all sides, the unfair rules and restrictions, etc. are tearing this country apart. And it's a shame. It was bad enough before this hit but now it's many times worse. 250,000 new deaths will do that I guess but the nastiness on all sides is not helping anyone or anything.

Mark

[tagiscom]

Originally Posted by TobiMDD

My point is that the actions from gonvernments against it are nonsense. More below.

There is a difference between dying with and dying from the virus - I heard from lots of cases where people actually died from something else but since they had a positive test they are counted as corona dead.

Money and Power...

This is whats wrong here. If the politicans really just want to do the right things to save the population why they are afraid to talk with those who are the goddamn experts in this field? lol?

No problem, hope you understand it now a bit better what I mean

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

I'd have to find my research again. But it would be a waste of time I'm afraid.

I like you but I don't believe that you or most people are willing to listen to anything not accepted by the mainstream.

IF a doctor has years of experience, no problems with their license, is treating COVID patients successfully, etc. and says masks don't help or take hydroxychloroquine would you accept it? Honestly? What if it's a team of doctors that says that? What if it's hundreds of doctors that say that?

What would it take for you or others to even look at any other possible answers? It's kind of like if what we've been doing isn't working, then to get a different result we have to try something else. Yet, the answers are all more of the same. For months now.

This thread is full of smart people who sell things with their words but can't see they might be sold something. If something is repeated enough, it becomes the accepted truth.

People have their agendas. People have to make a living. People are on different sides politically.

And unfortunately, many people have made up their mind. And nothing anyone can say will help change their mind.

Besides at this point, like someone mentioned above, mask wearers aren't going to stop including me just because someone else does it differently and anti-mask people aren't going to start wearing them. Lockdowns and other restrictions are out of our control. Vaccines are a personal choice (at this point).

The only point in some of this speculation, looking at alternatives, etc. is to cut down on some of the vitriol that has taken over and helps no one. It would be nice to read a news article, for example, which wasn't critical of leader's decisions or actions after demanding leadership, a plan, change, etc. It's like you are damned if you do or damned if you don't.

The blame game, the double standards, the confusing messages from all sides, the unfair rules and restrictions, etc. are tearing this country apart. And it's a shame. It was bad enough before this hit but now it's many times worse. 250,000 new deaths will do that I guess but the nastiness on all sides is not helping anyone or anything.

Mark

Former Chief Scientist reveals coronavirus “is...

L know YouTUbe, they are also interviewing the former Swedish chief epidemiologist Johan Giesecke, unless it is bluescreened with CGI and dubbed vocals, (very unlikely for AU/SKYnews).

He spelt it out, "Only use measures that are evidence based", some bent institution making up BS, isn't evidence based, seeing how countries handled similar outbreaks to Covid, in the past and doing that is.

He said that washing hands, (washing, not disinfecting all day long) and keeping a reasonable distance from others where the only two that worked, (no mention of masks or lockdowns).

Masks are only beneficial if someone stands in front of you coughing or sneezing, and you are talking! And as l have said, l live in the highest death count of all other states in Au, combined, and have only heard two people coughing excessively over that time, (l kept away from them).

He also said we will all get it eventually, so people have to weight, going stircrazy at home, and suffering all of the negavites of wearing a mask, for a vaccine, which will only give you a 30% chance of not getting it at best).

So you go stircrazy and muzzle up for a year for a slight reduction in getting one strain of Covid.

Covid is like the Spanish Flu, the SF is still with us, but now a nasty case of the flu, is all it does.

So if we are all going to get it, and it is mild for most, (same ratio as the flu, watch the video) when why the oppression?

As you said Mark, mass media keep repeating negative, remarks til some buy it. And accept it as fact, and do whetever they say.

[Declan O Flaherty]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Why in the world do you believe these are doctors? I watched the first 20 seconds or so. They are obviously not doctors. What hospital are they working in? What are their names?

This video was insulting.

Why in the world do I believe these are Doctors? Prob'y because they are Doctors. Right now alarm bells should be going off in your head.

Wake up Claude. Wake up. Your bias is showing.

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

It was removed from MSN and Youtube because it was obviously spreading a nonsensical conspiracy theory.

Of course it was. You keep telling yourself that. Your first reaction to invalidate REAL Doctors without even watching the video, should be enough for pause, and reflection.

Originally Posted by perryny

Apparently, South Dakota is now #2 in the US for Cases per Million.

Back around Aug.10th or so, they were at about 100 cases per day. Today they are around 1000.

This is why we can't have nice things.

We can't have nice things because the average person is incapable of critical thinking.

South Dakota is 45 on the list when it comes to deaths. That's 45. And without destroying people's lives from locking them up. AND... that's JUST in the USA. How did that happen?

Any rational person can see they did it better than almost all other states. But, all it takes for MSM is to spin you a little silly story about 'cases', and you eat it up like an opportunity seeker eats up money making products.

So sad.

[TobiMDD]

As I said before I don't have lots of english sources or material, but I know about this speech.
It's legendary haha and will be historical, watch it if you haven't already:


https://youtu.be/JDJ4jZtXcYw

[Jeffery]

'America's Frontline Doctors' may be real doctors, but experts say they don't know what they're talking about
USA TODAY July 31, 2020

Excerpts..

1. Dr. Simone Gold, who has identified herself as an emergency medicine specialist in Los Angeles. In May, she gained national attention for being a part of a group of Pro-Trump doctors who advocated for quickly reopening the economy. On her website, she claims she "works as an emergency physician on the frontlines whether or not there is a pandemic." On LinkedIn, she says she works as a "Concierge Physician," an increasingly common field of medicine where patients pay a monthly or annual fee for access to a physician, according to AARP. She is listed as having a renewed and current medical license by the Medical Board of California and self-reported to the board that she completes 30-39 hours of patient care per week.

2. Dr. Bob Hamilton identified himself as a pediatrician from Santa Monica, California, with 36 years of practice. He's listed as a pediatrician at Pacific Ocean Pediatrics, which reports on its website he has privileges at two California hospitals. He is listed as having a renewed and current medical license by the Medical Board of California.

3. Dr. Stella Immanuel identified herself as a primary care physician in Houston and claims to have successfully treated about 350 COVID-19 patients. She has a full medical license in Texas, according to Texas Medical Board online records. She told the board she has a primary specialty of pediatrics and a secondary specialty of emergency medicine.


Side note: See Below


4. Dr. Dan Erickson was featured in a previous controversial video criticizing lockdowns; he co-owns California urgent care centers. The American Academy of Emergency Medicine condemned Erickson for his "reckless and untested musings" relating to COVID-19 in April. Erickson is listed as having a license from the Osteopathic Medical Board of California. While the training for a doctor of osteopathic medicine is slightly different, focusing on more of a hands-on and holistic approach to health, they must go through a similar licensing process as physicians, according to the Mayo Clinic. His urgent care center, Accelerated Urgent Care, does have a current license with the state medical board.

5. Dr. Richard G. Urso is listed as an ophthalmologist with Houston Eye Associates. He has a full medical license in Texas, according to Texas Medical Board online records. He told the board he has a primary and secondary specialty of ophthalmology. An assistant for Urso declined to comment to USA TODAY.

6. Dr. James Todaro identifies himself on LinkedIn as a Detroit-area physician, managing partner of an investment fund and former physician with an eye group. Michigan's Department of Licensing and Regulatory Affairs does not list anyone with a current medical doctor license by Todaro's name.

7. Dr. Joe Ladapo is an associate professor of medicine in the division of General Internal Medicine and Health Services Research at David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA. He is listed as a Hospitalist affiliated with Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center by UCLA health. Ladapo wrote in an email to USA TODAY that he has treated COVID-19 patients but that his primary work is in clinical research. He said that his research has not primarily focused on COVID-19 and potential treatments, but rather policy and management of the pandemic. Ladapo has written numerous opinion editorials critical of lockdowns published by national outlets, including USA TODAY.

A doctor who believes in demon sperm sued for medical malpractice

Immanuel (# 3) has received heightened attention among the doctors in the group after a report from the Daily Beast highlighted some of her bizarre religious and medical beliefs.

The Daily Beast reported that Immanuel has stated "that gynecological problems like cysts and endometriosis are in fact caused by people having sex in their dreams with demons and witches" and that "alien DNA is currently used in medical treatments."

On Twitter, Immanuel embraced these claims, tweeting, "Yes America! some need deliverance from demon sperm" and said the news outlet "did a great job summarizing our deliverance ministry."

Additional Source:
Who Are ‘America’s Frontline Doctors’ and Dr. Stella Immanuel?
Snopes Published 30 July 2020 Updated 27 August 2020

Excerpt:

A group that called itself “America’s Frontline Doctors” (AFD) took to the steps of the U.S. Supreme Court on July 27, 2020, in a self-described “White Coat Summit” to address a “massive disinformation campaign” regarding COVID-19, the respiratory disease caused by SARS-CoV-2.

A video recording of the 45-minute long event was promoted online as a “SCOTUS press conference” but had no clear affiliation with the high court other than being held on the footsteps of the Washington, D.C., courthouse. Less than 24 hours after being posted, the video was pulled from social media platforms for presenting misinformation lauding unproven treatments for COVID-19, and thousands of reader queries poured in at Snopes, asking about the legitimacy of the video and the personalities featured in it.

[Kay King]

Some people have too much time on their hands.

South Dakota is 39th in deaths - North Dakota is 40th but the point is valid. PerryNY says NYC is fine - but 1700 new cases in NY state reported yesterday.

I'm not sure what the arguing is about. Medicine is like other careers - if you can get attention of the media it's useful to you. I've known some really good people who were doctors - and a few nutcases who were doctors, too. I dated a rich gynecologist...trust me, some 'good' doctors are very weird...

We are in a period of time where real 'news' about the pandemic is 'same old'. The disease is still being passed on to people - people are still dying but at a much lower rate - vaccines are always 'coming soon' - and predictions of doom and gloom are lead stories in the media.

Does it matter what a bunch of self annointed 'experts' think? Or what each person's qualifications are? Does it prove anything?

I live in Ohio - mandatory masks - everywhere I go there are sanitizers and employees cleaning like crazy. Yet my county the covid cases have more than doubled in the past two weeks. However, the death rate has not changed.

You can analyze this pandemic to death - but it doesn't change anything. You can argue whether it's real or not - I think it's real to those who have lost family members.

There was a point at which only 6 or so states had more than 1000 new cases a day....yesterday 26 states reported more than 1000 new cases. We don't know if the social distancing and masks work - because so many people are not taking precautions. It does seem we are headed in the wrong direction when it comes to 'spread' of covid-19 - but so far the death rates have remained far lower than they were not long ago.

The loss of control is what bothers people the most - not knowing what is going to happen to them personally and feeling they may not be able to do anything about it. That anxiety is fertile ground for conspiracies and fake experts...and I think there's a lot of that going around.

[Morbiferousz]

As of October 23, 2020, it already has 42 million cases, I bet this will reach 80 million before a vaccine is widely available. Instead of stressing myself about this, I will take this time to put this Acrylic Driveway sealer https://bestdrivewaysealers.org/acry...ws-high-gloss/ that work great on concrete by holding it together and preventing it from spalling, cracking, and crumbling.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

I'd have to find my research again. But it would be a waste of time I'm afraid.

I like you but I don't believe that you or most people are willing to listen to anything not accepted by the mainstream.

I want everyone to see this.

I asked you for the names of the doctors. But I already knew I was going to get one of these responses;
1) You would make a joke and deflect.
2) You would say that the names are secret because the doctors have been threatened by "Them".
3) There is no reason to tell me, because of my obvious bias.

Now I know it was number three. But I knew I wasn't going to get a list of Medical Doctors.

These conspiracy theories (I know because the video was on a conspiracy site) have something in common.

The people who believe them always say the same things. They use the same arguments. They follow the same pattern.

And one key pattern is to never provide a clear argument to prove a point. I give a point, and it's almost never responded to with a real answer. Incredibly, on this thread, I actually got a series of real answers from TOBIMDD. But that's a fluke. It's the first time I remember getting real answers on a conspiracy theory.

Anyway, The other common thread is that anyone who challenges a conspiracy theory claim...or even asks a question...is told that they are biased,. Every time. Why? Because that's the common language on conspiracy sites.

I also see an awful lot of "What are they hiding?" and claims that any expert is suspect. The real truth is always hidden...on conspiracy sites. "Open your eyes" is a common statement. "Get your head out of the sand "is also common, although I haven't seen it much here. And I very often see "You need to be open minded", but not so much here. Usually that argument is saved for pseudoscience and not conspiracies.

And the post is always angry. Always personal. It never sticks to the actual claims made.

I like you too. I have nothing against anyone here. But I hate bad arguments. And what I see here are plenty of bad arguments.

Personally, I like numbers, and statements from people who are incredibly qualified to offer an opinion. So, I'll stick with the virologists, epidemiologists and pretty much every medical doctor in the world...and not videos on conspiracy sites.

If that makes me sound like an unhinged lunatic, I'll take that chance.

Added later; I notice that the same few people are Thanking the conspiracy posts. That nearly always happens, and it fascinates me. It means that the few people are agreeing on an irrational claim.

That bothers my analytical mind. So I suggest it can only mean one of a few things.

1) They are right, and I am wrong.
2) They read the same articles and watch the same videos on conspiracy sites. This is the one I suspect is true, because I see the same words, phrases, and deflections being used by multiple posters.
3) Support is very important to them, and "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" thinking. (Although I don't think anyone here thinks anyone else is a real enemy.)

Anyway, what were we arguing about?

Added later; Although I addressed Mark comment, I was replying to several posts that have commonalities. I wasn't specifically talking about Mark.

[kenmichaels]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I like you too. I have nothing against anyone here. But I hate bad arguments. And what I see here are plenty of bad arguments.

Personally, I like numbers, and statements from people who are incredibly qualified to offer an opinion. So, I'll stick with the virologists, epidemiologists and pretty much every medical doctor in the world...and not videos on conspiracy sites.

If that makes me sound like an unhinged lunatic, I'll take that chance.

...

...Ditto

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

Why would you say that since you only watched the first 20 seconds? You've apparently made up your mind without being willing to look at anything else.

That's a fair argument.

The first thing said was "The pandemic is over". Obviously that isn't true. I listened as a few people yelled claims about the media taking down their articles.....the title of the video is

BANNED FROM YOUTUBE: AMERICA’S FRONTLINE DOCTORS, "MASKS DON'T WORK, COVID IS A HOAX

Banned from Youtube is a claim that conspiracy people use to sell the idea that their claims are just too real...too true.....for the media to let us see. Youtube videos use that kind of language as clickbait.

Masks don't work? Covid is a hoax? I'm sorry, but that's lunacy.

I don't have to eat a whole rotten apple, to know it's rotten. A few bites is enough.

Added later; OK, I just watched the whole thing. Much of it is claiming that their results are different from what we hear on the news. But they are seeing small samples of patients. Their conclusions are based on inadequate sample size. If you see the state numbers, the picture becomes clearer.

I'm having trouble figuring out why they are together talking about this. Most don't really disagree with what we have been hearing from the CDC or WHO, or Dr. Fauci.

And I must say, having Alex Jones come on at the end doesn't scream credibility.

[lanfear63]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

That's a fair argument.

The first thing said was "The pandemic is over". Obviously that isn't true. I listened as a few people yelled claims about the media taking down their articles.....the title of the video is

BANNED FROM YOUTUBE: AMERICA’S FRONTLINE DOCTORS, "MASKS DON'T WORK, COVID IS A HOAX

Banned from Youtube is a claim that conspiracy people use to sell the idea that their claims are just too real...too true.....for the media to let us see. Youtube videos use that kind of language as clickbait.

Masks don't work? Covid is a hoax? I'm sorry, but that's lunacy.

I don't have to eat a whole rotten apple, to know it's rotten. A few bites is enough.

Added later; OK, I just watched the whole thing. Much of it is claiming that their results are different from what we hear on the news. But they are seeing small samples of patients. Their conclusions are based on inadequate sample size. If you see the state numbers, the picture becomes clearer.

I'm having trouble figuring out why they are together talking about this. Most don't really disagree with what we have been hearing from the CDC or WHO, or Dr. Fauci.

And I must say, having Alex Jones come on at the end doesn't scream credibility.

Anyone who says this is all fake is just a keratinous oaf in my reckoning. Just like you could avoid the ongoing explaining of science to the main perpetrators of the Flat Earth nonsense by paying to fly a couple of them up to the space station, why don't one of you conspiracy nuts just phone a US hospital in a highly infected area and ask to speak to the head janitor and ask him if they have been a little busier than late.

Think about it, why would the 212 countries/territories affected want to risk there economy being drained of funds by locking down everything. What purpose would it serve.

[Mark Singletary]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I want everyone to see this.

I asked you for the names of the doctors. But I already knew I was going to get one of these responses;
1) You would make a joke and deflect.
2) You would say that the names are secret because the doctors have been threatened by "Them".
3) There is no reason to tell me, because of my obvious bias.

Now I know it was number three. But I knew I wasn't going to get a list of Medical Doctors.

And I didn't provide it because of your obvious bias. I was right. If it isn't on CNN, you won't believe it.

Please stop baiting people who are trying to have an honest discussion. In other places you say you are open and we need to discuss this and even admit some press may have their own slants.

I am not a conspiracy nut. I have never said it isn't real or anything similar. I'm looking at the entire picture. Please don't put me in that category.

Please don't shame me for not playing your game. You didn't want the list. You refused to look for the list yourself. And you don't believe the list now that you've seen it.

You are doing exactly what I said at the end of my last post. It's become so negative and personal and bitter. No one can talk about anything that isn't on CNN or they are nuts to avoid.

Thanks Claude.

Mark

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

And I didn't provide it because of your obvious bias. I was right. If it isn't on CNN, you won't believe it.

Why are you mentioning CNN? I said the CDC and the WHO.

And why am I biased. If you and I believe a different set of "facts" why is it that I'm the one who is biased and you are not?

Have you not noticed that I haven't said that you (or anyone here) is biased?

I do have a bias. I trust experts. Call me crazy.

Oh, and today...Friday...the new daily number of new Covid infections in the US just hit over 82,000. That's the most daily new infections since the pandemic started. That's just today.

So...there's that.

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

Please don't shame me for not playing your game. You didn't want the list. You refused to look for the list yourself. And you don't believe the list now that you've seen it.

Did I really want to see the list? Not really. Did I think you would give the list? Not at all. And I didn't think the person who posted it would give the names either.

And you think I should look up the list myself? You think I should do the work to prove the validity of a video on a conspiracy site? A video someone else posted? Why is it my job to prove your point? Don't you see what a bad argument that is?

But since Jeffery was kind enough to give the list (and some context), I believe it entirely.

I believe that the people in the group are who they say they are. (although a few act like nuts). They just have experiences in their treatment that don't match the national averages.

Do I think they are lying? Not really. Do I believe them instead of every immunologist, virologist and epidemiologist alive? You know...the experts? No.

And...Remember I said I watched the whole 45 minutes? The Doctors didn't really say anything in opposition to anything the CDC or the WHO has said. They had slightly different numbers that the national average.

But the video started with "The Pandemic Is Over!".

And as open minded as I try to be.....a daily count of new cases in the US of 82,000...a new daily record....makes believing "The Pandemic Is Over!" a little hard to believe.


Added later; Mark; I reread your last post. I think I may have been hasty in lumping you in with a few others. I was responding to your comment on the video. I was responding to part of one post, but not your entire argument. And I unfairly mixed your last couple of posts in with others. I apologize.

[Mark Singletary]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Added later; Mark; I reread your last post. I think I may have been hasty in lumping you in with a few others. I was responding to your comment on the video. I was responding to part of one post, but not your entire argument. And I unfairly mixed your last couple of posts in with others. I apologize.

Thank you. That was the main thing that got me riled up. This is an important topic but sometimes I take it too far.

I absolutely don't agree with some of the other posts whether they like my posts or not. That David Icke video would have been deleted if it was my own decision because he's icky. But I couldn't justify it based on the forum rules after watching it.

I almost deleted the America's Frontline Doctors video because of the Infowars thing at the end. He's way out there too and I knew that would ruin the effect, if any, of the doctor's part of the video. The original video that I first saw shared by some friends on FB didn't have the Infowars crap at the end. And there's no indication any of the doctors are affiliated with Infowars. That one lady does have some whacky personal beliefs though.

I mentioned CNN because of the Time magazine thing the other day (Time is more credible than a YT video). CNN is just easier to type and blame. LOL

Mark

[Declan O Flaherty]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

These conspiracy theories (I know because the video was on a conspiracy site) have something in common.

The people who believe them always say the same things. They use the same arguments. They follow the same pattern.

And one key pattern is to never provide a clear argument to prove a point. I give a point, and it's almost never responded to with a real answer. Incredibly, on this thread, I actually got a series of real answers from TOBIMDD. But that's a fluke. It's the first time I remember getting real answers on a conspiracy theory.

The other common thread is that anyone who challenges a conspiracy theory claim...or even asks a question...is told that they are biased,. Every time. Why? Because that's the common language on conspiracy sites.

Because you are biased. The numbers prove the lie. This is not, never was, and never will be a deadly, categorically different virus. The numbers prove it.

COVID-19 INFECTION SURVIVAL RATES (per CDC)

Ages 0-19: 99.997%

Ages 20-49: 99.98%

Ages 50-69: 99.5%

Ages 70+: 94.6%

Seasonal Flu Infection Survival Rate (for population as a whole): 99.90%

In your relative comfort just how deep is your corona-religion? Is it so deep that you’ll continue to turn a blind eye to the global suffering that’s taking place so that you can feel safe from a virus that thankfully kills so few?

Shouldn't we have all rejoiced when Sweden came out the best of almost every other country around the world? Shouldn't we have learned from them, instead of slandering them? Doesn't their model make more sense now that the numbers are out? Aren't the OTHER deaths due to the lock downs just as important?

How can you ignore this, unless you are indeed biased?

USA: 328M = 0.07%
ITALY: 60M = 0.06%
FRANCE: 67M = 0.05%
SWEDEN: 10M = 0.06% (No Lock Down)
UK: 67M = 0.07%

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Personally, I like numbers, and statements from people who are incredibly qualified to offer an opinion. So, I'll stick with the virologists, epidemiologists and pretty much every medical doctor in the world...and not videos on conspiracy sites.

If you like numbers, then you should look at them objectively once in a while.

Besides, we don't need YT videos. I listed thousands, yes thousands of Scientist and Doctors who are speaking out against this nonsense. Go back and take a look. But here, I'll show you more...

https://docs4opendebate.be/en/doctors-initiatives/

https://docs4opendebate.be/en/open-letter/

https://worlddoctorsalliance.com/


I listed thousands more in a previous post. We aren't all conspiracy nuts. There's genuine concern about how this has been handled. Not just in the beginning, but now when the virus is clearly not as dangerous. None of it makes sense. Especially when we have a model that has worked, and they CHOOSE to ignore it. Tell me that's not political?


FYI: If you want me to find the links to the thousands of Scientists and Doctors, just say so and I'll get them. I'll back up every word in this post.

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I notice that the same few people are Thanking the conspiracy posts. That nearly always happens, and it fascinates me. It means that the few people are agreeing on an irrational claim.

The irrational claim is that we are dealing with a deadly virus. it's irrational because the numbers prove it's not. It's irrational to believe lock downs, mandated mask wearing and social distancing is the answer when Sweden proved this to be false. It's irrational to ignore this, especially when people are guaranteed to die and their lives destroyed from lock downs.

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

And why am I biased. If you and I believe a different set of "facts" why is it that I'm the one who is biased and you are not?

Because your facts have been proven to be not factual.

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I do have a bias. I trust experts. Call me crazy.

What experts?

The ones who ignore the numbers and ignore the model that has been successful? The experts who didn't push masks at the height of the pandemic but did when the deaths started to fall? The insane fools who praised Governor Cuomo\s disastrous handling of the pandemic and slandered Sweden's? Give me a break.

No idea why anyone would listen to these clowns. They have got it wrong from the start, and worse, they continue to do so. That's not a simple mistake. Their moronic decisions are literally killing people while the virus isn't killing any more than other places that didn't lock down.

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Oh, and today...Friday...the new daily number of new Covid infections in the US just hit over 82,000. That's the most daily new infections since the pandemic started. That's just today.

So...there's that.

Isn't that a good thing if more people aren't dying?

More cases + less deaths = fastrack to the end, just like Sweden.

And they tell you this is a bad thing? Why, exactly? It makes ZERO sense. If more people get infected, but the deaths don't rise, then good golly that has to be the best case scenario. It's clearly the best way to get this thing in our rear view, right?

Obviously.

Sweden’s health care system was never overwhelmed, even at the height of the pandemic, and the country is now in a better position than any other country on the continent, virtually all of which continue to follow disastrous lockdown policies pushed by the so-called experts who told us Sweden would crash and burn.

Under any other circumstances you would be scratching your head, wondering why we aren't ALL following the model that worked.

You're clearly an intelligent guy, but you're wrong on this one. That's not an opinion. It's a provable fact. The numbers don't lie. Sweden was always going to be the model that proves the lockdowns were going to cause more deaths, not less. Weird how us conspiracy theorists predicted this 4 months ago, while the so-called telly experts couldn't.

When they praise the people who got it wrong and slander the people who got it right, alarm bells should be going off in your head. It's staggering how easy it is to convince people of a lie, even when the stats prove it be just that.

The virus is real. The response is moronic.

If you were interested in truth, you would have researched and found that an estimated 1.3 million people are going to die from food shortages because of the international restrictions. That's not counting the people who will, and have died from suicide, cancelled cancer treatments, drug and alcohol abuse, domestic abuse, and how many lives have been destroyed because of job loss and business closures?

There's also the mental health problem that's going to skyrocket over the coming months, and years. And did I mention the economy? Unbelievable!

Tell me again how deadly this virus is? Tell me why I, and many others shouldn't be fuming at the response? Tell me how you can justify all this for a virus that has been proven to be no more deadly than a severe flu?

It's not only idiotic; it's criminal.

Is it a closed case that masks work? Is that a fact? It wasn't a fact before this virus. But now, the same people who are making the same mistakes are telling you they are very important. Weird that since the CDC director told you months ago they didn't help, and then later changed his story and said they were more effective than a vaccine.

Fauci flip-flopped in the exact same way. It seems they can tell you anything they want, and later change their story to the complete opposite, and nobody bats an eyelid. That's insane.

It's certainly not as clear cut as you all are saying it is...

https://www.rcreader.com/commentary/...andatory-masks

[lanfear63]

Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty

Because you are biased. The numbers prove the lie. This is not, never was, and never will be a deadly, categorically different virus. The numbers prove it.

COVID-19 INFECTION SURVIVAL RATES (per CDC)

Ages 0-19: 99.997%

Ages 20-49: 99.98%

Ages 50-69: 99.5%

Ages 70+: 94.6%

Seasonal Flu Infection Survival Rate (for population as a whole): 99.90%

In your relative comfort just how deep is your corona-religion? Is it so deep that you’ll continue to turn a blind eye to the global suffering that’s taking place so that you can feel safe from a virus that thankfully kills so few?

Shouldn't we have all rejoiced when Sweden came out the best of almost every other country around the world? Shouldn't we have learned from them, instead of slandering them? Doesn't their model make more sense now that the numbers are out? Aren't the OTHER deaths due to the lock downs just as important?

How can you ignore this, unless you are indeed biased?

USA: 328M = 0.07%
ITALY: 60M = 0.06%
FRANCE: 67M = 0.05%
SWEDEN: 10M = 0.06% (No Lock Down)
UK: 67M = 0.07%




If you like numbers, then you should look at them objectively once in a while.

Besides, we don't need YT videos. I listed thousands, yes thousands of Scientist and Doctors who are speaking out against this nonsense. Go back and take a look. But here, I'll show you more...

https://docs4opendebate.be/en/doctors-initiatives/

https://docs4opendebate.be/en/open-letter/

https://worlddoctorsalliance.com/


I listed thousands more in a previous post. We aren't all conspiracy nuts. There's genuine concern about how this has been handled. Not just in the beginning, but now when the virus is clearly not as dangerous. None of it makes sense. Especially when we have a model that has worked, and they CHOOSE to ignore it. Tell me that's not political?


FYI: If you want me to find the links to the thousands of Scientists and Doctors, just say so and I'll get them. I'll back up every word in this post.




The irrational claim is that we are dealing with a deadly virus. it's irrational because the numbers prove it's not. It's irrational to believe lock downs, mandated mask wearing and social distancing is the answer when Sweden proved this to be false. It's irrational to ignore this, especially when people are guaranteed to die and their lives destroyed from lock downs.



Because your facts have been proven to be not factual.



What experts?

The ones who ignore the numbers and ignore the model that has been successful? The experts who didn't push masks at the height of the pandemic but did when the deaths started to fall? The insane fools who praised Governor Cuomos disastrous handling of the pandemic and slandered Sweden's? Give me a break.

No idea why anyone would listen to these clowns. They have got it wrong from the start, and worse, they continue to do so. That's not a simple mistake. Their moronic decisions are literally killing people while the virus isn't killing any more than other places that didn't lock down.



Isn't that a good thing if more people aren't dying?

More cases + less deaths = fastrack to the end, just like Sweden.

And they tell you this is a bad thing? Why, exactly? It makes ZERO sense. If more people get infected, but the deaths don't rise, then good golly that has to be the best case scenario. It's clearly the best way to get this thing in our rear view, right?

Obviously.

Sweden’s health care system was never overwhelmed, even at the height of the pandemic, and the country is now in a better position than any other country on the continent, virtually all of which continue to follow disastrous lockdown policies pushed by the so-called experts who told us Sweden would crash and burn.

Under any other circumstances you would be scratching your head, wondering why we aren't ALL following the model that worked.

You're clearly an intelligent guy, but you're wrong on this one. That's not an opinion. It's a provable fact. The numbers don't lie. Sweden was always going to be the model that proves the lockdowns were going to cause more deaths, not less. Weird how us conspiracy theorists predicted this 4 months ago, while the so-called telly experts couldn't.

When they praise the people who got it wrong and slander the people who got it right, alarm bells should be going off in your head. It's staggering how easy it is to convince people of a lie, even when the stats prove it be just that.

The virus is real. The response is moronic.

If you were interested in truth, you would have researched and found that an estimated 1.3 million people are going to die from food shortages because of the international restrictions. That's not counting the people who will, and have died from suicide, cancelled cancer treatments, drug and alcohol abuse, domestic abuse, and how many lives have been destroyed because of job loss and business closures?

There's also the mental health problem that's going to skyrocket over the coming months, and years. And did I mention the economy? Unbelievable!

Tell me again how deadly this virus is? Tell me why I, and many others shouldn't be fuming at the response? Tell me how you can justify all this for a virus that has been proven to be no more deadly than a severe flu?

It's not only idiotic; it's criminal.

Is it a closed case that masks work? Is that a fact? It wasn't a fact before this virus. But now, the same people who are making the same mistakes are telling you they are very important. Weird that since the CDC director told you months ago they didn't help, and then later changed his story and said they were more effective than a vaccine.

Fauci flip-flopped in the exact same way. It seems they can tell you anything they want, and later change their story to the complete opposite, and nobody bats an eyelid. That's insane.

It's certainly not as clear cut as you all are saying it is...

https://www.rcreader.com/commentary/...andatory-masks

Mr Flaherty

You mentioned that Covid was not anything more than being like a severe flu. Here is a chart showing Flu related deaths in the US for the last ten years. The maximum amount if deaths, in the 2017/18 season, was 61,000. That was the most extreme figure.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden...20since%202010.

So Covid, although fluctuating will most likely average out around 1000.00 per day. So in 2 months appx. Covid will have killed as many people as in a whole (worst) flu season. That makes Covid six times more deadly.

[Princess Balestra]

May I lighten the mood?

Like a coupla octopuses floppin' outta a bra into melted Ben & Jerry's?

SPLOOSH!

Aw, see — now I gaht to researchin' Swedish folk culchah to check why they so darn smart.

Turns out they real sweet on multitaskin' trad dance moves with repurposin' curtains for the gals.

https://youtu.be/mFBwY4a7Tys

(I ain't bein' anti-Swedish here bcs what is so cool 'bout plenty Yoorp folk stuffs is how the diversity ain't too far from the similarity — an' personally I blame THE STRINGED INSTRUMENT.)

My view?

The guy with the ponytail fancies his ass as the most exotic in the troupe.

Prolly he could grip a real ripe pear between his cheeks without burstin' the skin.

(Yogah gal digression.)

Prahblem we got is ... from whence was this (kinda cutesy) rityool derived/conspired?

Dunno, call me The Stoopidest Person Evah To Post On WF, but I ain't got the flesh & blood hooman hours to staff no conspiracy theory evah — even if'n they got fancy soap free for evry gal workin' the Tweets.

"Princess, all you gotta do is convince humanity of something that CLEARLY ISN'T TRUE — alongside all these other dedicated girls taking part in this SECRET deception who can be prised from their BFs and babies to devote time and energy to this most important endeavor ..."

(I would so love to read the frickin' contract.)

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by lanfear63

Mr Flaherty

You mentioned that Covid was not anything more than being like a severe flu. Here is a chart showing Flu related deaths in the US for the last ten years. The maximum amount if deaths, in the 2017/18 season, was 61,000. That was the most extreme figure.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden...20since%202010.

So Covid, although fluctuating will most likely average out around 1000.00 per day. So in 2 months appx. Covid will have killed as many people as in a whole (worst) flu season. That makes Covid six times more deadly.

You are generous. You are taking the worst estimates of flu deaths, and comparing to the actual number of Covid deaths. And even then, the numbers aren't even close.

If you take the worst estimate for deaths from the flu, and the worst estimates of people that get the flu (each year over he last ten years)...you get 45 million people a year with the flu.

Why so many? because it's been here so long, and we have all been exposed to the flu over and over again.

Covid is new. So new that only about 2.5% of the population in the US has been tested positive. The virus has the vast majority of the population to go through still.

Far more people with Covid go to the hospital than those with the flu. And far more people with Covid die, than the same number with the flu.

If everyone in the country (The US) was exposed to Covid, like they have been exposed to the flu, Conservatively we would have 900,000 deaths per year VS the high of 61,000 deaths from the flu per year.

The 900,000 figure is based on only 10% of the population testing positive for Covid a year, in every age range, whether they have symptoms or not...(Not just people who get treatment) with the current survival rates.

The percentage a year that get the flu is about 10% (meaning 10% of the population has symptoms bad enough to get treatment.)

Originally Posted by Princess Balestra

May I lighten the mood?


https://youtu.be/mFBwY4a7Tys

Damn you...you made me look.

[Princess Balestra]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Damn you...you made me look.

Pure allure, Moi.

Won't work for evrywan tho.

I can't make nowan do nuthin' less'n they think I can.

Only ask I got for anywan else checkin' in here is plz don't stomp around blamin' Moi for your mood jus' bcs you 'held out' an' didn't venture a li'l peep.

(Now I watched the video again, gotta figure ponytail guy could manage 2 pears — an' still fit in sum moves for a grape sumplace trooly immodest.)

Jus' sayin'.

[Declan O Flaherty]

Originally Posted by lanfear63

Mr Flaherty

You mentioned that Covid was not anything more than being like a severe flu. Here is a chart showing Flu related deaths in the US for the last ten years. The maximum amount if deaths, in the 2017/18 season, was 61,000. That was the most extreme figure.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden...20since%202010.

So Covid, although fluctuating will most likely average out around 1000.00 per day. So in 2 months appx. Covid will have killed as many people as in a whole (worst) flu season. That makes Covid six times more deadly.

You see what they want you to see and your reasoning directly bleeds from the lie that this is a deadly virus, when statistically it is not.


Now, 6 times more deadly you say? That would mean the death rate is over 3 million considering half a million die from the flu, around the world, every year. See how biased you all are when it comes to the numbers? It's very sad to see so many gullible people play a role in destroying hundreds of millions of lives, which is exactly what is happening.

And it aint from the kung-covid-flu.

How many died of flu since covid? Whatever is less than average, add it to the covid numbers. By the way, it's October, flu is about to hit, and it won't be the flu cases they will report; it will be covid.

How many died from covid, not with it? It's what, 4%?.

How often are hospitals incentivized to put down covid as the cause of death? How many are incentivized to do the same with influenza? All of them were incentivized to put down 'death from covid'.

We have a casedemic now. Another little tool to keep you all on the edge of your seats in the basement.

Cases? What about the DEATH rate?

Cases? So this means masks are useless?

Cases? So the shutdown/distancing/etc. are useless?

And these are the fools you rely on to tell you what the numbers are? Seems there's a conflict of interest there. I mean, if I messed it up by destroying people's lives from pointless lock downs and forced people to wear a face diaper, then I too would be doing whatever it takes to make it look like there's a deadly virus out there.

It's just so easy to fool people. Too easy, in fact.

Everything the politicians and experts have said and done has done absolutely nothing except make things worse.

Prove me wrong without fudging the numbers. Compare the places with the strictest lock downs to the places with the most lax, and you'll see NO difference.

In a real pandemic,

it is the number of DEATHS that count,

NOT cases.

in a REAL pandemic, the numbers would be of DEAD people.

We now can see that MORE people are dying from the solution. But you lot want to keep playing the same silly game.

There is no shortage of science and data to challenge the flawed policies of the nation states whose basic playbook has been: lockdown, close economy, print money, ignore data, and double down. They don’t know how to do anything other than double-down on failure while everybody else bears the consequences.

Imagine if you will, a disease so deadly you have to be tested to find out you have it, and when you test positive for this deadly disease, they send you home.

Laughable.

Great Barrington Declaration
As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection.

Concerned Citizens
568,557
Medical & Public Health Scientists
11,104
Medical practitioners
31,000
https://gbdeclaration.org/#read

Over 40,000 medical scientists and practitioners who are clearly conspiracy theorists. There's literally tens of thousands more.

We know it's no more deadly than the flu. We knew it from the start. In fact, at the beginning of this very thread, there are links to epidemiologists who said exactly what would happen, and they were 100% right. But hey, ignore all that and keep listening to the very people who had to consistently keep walking back the exaggerated numbers they CLAIMED from the start.

Yes, the same people who told you masks were useless, only to walk it back later when the deaths started to fall. Yes, the same people who slandered anyone who got it right and didn't screw their citizens and ruin millions of lives from lock downs.

And pay attention as we move forward. Pay attention if the deaths start to rise as the flu season kicks in. Because if covid deaths increase, then you can be sure they are counting flu as covid, and if you don't believe it, then you have to then admit that the lock downs and masks didn't work, and hundreds of millions of people's lives were ruined for nothing.

You can't have it both ways.

If the lock downs and masks work, the deaths shouldn't rise. In fact, there shouldn't be a rise in cases if the measures they put in place work. Otherwise, what was the point? Because like it or not, you cannot destroy hundreds of millions of peoples lives unless your actions are guaranteed to make a difference. Otherwise, you do what Sweden and other places did.

More people are dying from avoiding this virus than they are from getting it.

Let that sink in^^^^^

Oh, and one last thing: The masks. The magical virus stoppers that protect you from getting a virus in your mouth and nose. Cool. Viruses hate the eyes.

[tagiscom]

Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty

You see what they want you to see and your reasoning directly bleeds from the lie that this is a deadly virus, when statistically it is not.

We now can see that MORE people are dying from the solution. But you lot want to keep playing the same silly game.

There is no shortage of science and data to challenge the flawed policies of the nation states whose basic playbook has been: lockdown, close economy, print money, ignore data, and double down. They don’t know how to do anything other than double-down on failure while everybody else bears the consequences.

Imagine if you will, a disease so deadly you have to be tested to find out you have it, and when you test positive for this deadly disease, they send you home.

Laughable.

Great Barrington Declaration
As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection.

Oh, and one last thing: The masks. The magical virus stoppers that protect you from getting a virus in your mouth and nose. Cool. Viruses hate the eyes.

Good points Declan, and as the previous medical expert in Sweden has said, distancing yourself from others does work or help, but the 1.5 or 4 metres is probably more political based than anything else, (l believe that is where you are coming from with your point).

Claude dismisses my chart example, eventhough the institution is just as credible as Time Magazine; if the European CDC is lying then Time Mag, can also be lying just as much.

But of course Time, also lies its brains out in other areas Claude and others want to believe in, so there is the problem, knock Time, and the green soapbox goes flying, (PM me if you need clarification, couldn't be f...here).

Our, (can't use political words, umm) Dictator, has finally about faced and allowed businesses to open up again, or l should be able to sit in a coffee shop and enjoy a paper this week, after ....months of 5km limits, and the longest lockdowns on the planet. A lot of Victorains have a deep hatred, l myself have had a sore back for the last two weeks, due to looking out for cops, (a lot of people here are scared of our police force, since they can fine you, $1,630 for driving the long way home, going to a lookout or enjoying a coffee at a park, (those are actual accounts, and have no scientific bias).

Covid is golden chalice for leaders who want smashed airports and non nonessential businesses to be gone, but as l can attest first hand that lifestyle is unsustainable

And good point about the eyes, especially the fact that masks make you touch them more, because of escaping breath.

And a Covid particle hitting one will give you the virus, l guess you had better use a plastic sheild as well, groan.

[Claude Whitacre]

To be completely fair, everyhing you have brought up has been answered, in this thread, several times. But it is kind of fun to do it again...so here goes....

Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty

Now, 6 times more deadly you say? That would mean the death rate is over 3 million considering half a million die from the flu, around the world, every year.

No. The difference (as has been said several times already) is that everyone has had the flu at least several times. Only a couple of percent of the population has had the Coronavirus. And even then many times more people have died in the US, from Covid (230,000 as of today, so far this year) compared to a high estimate of 61,000 per year from the flu. All these figures are very easy to look up from the CDC.

Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty

How many died of flu since covid? Whatever is less than average, add it to the covid numbers. By the way, it's October, flu is about to hit, and it won't be the flu cases they will report; it will be covid.

No. People are still getting the flu. Yes, there will be fewer cases this year, because, like Covid, the flu is transferred mostly by air, from one person coughing/sneezing/yelling, so that the virus is breathed in by someone else. With more people wearing masks and distancing, it also helps prevent the spread of the flu and colds.


How many died from covid, not with it? It's what, 4%?. [/QUOTE]

No. The people who are sick enough to go to the hospital, and then eventually die, are about 2% of the people who test positive for Covid. These people do not test positive for the flu.

Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty

How often are hospitals incentivized to put down covid as the cause of death? How many are incentivized to do the same with influenza? All of them were incentivized to put down 'death from covid'.

No idea. Why would anyone working in a hospital lie about cause of death? Does the medical examiner get $100 for every Covid death?

Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty

Cases? So the shutdown/distancing/etc. are useless?

No. The shutdowns and distancing help slow the spread of the virus. Just because they don't stop 100% of the cases from eventually happening, doesn't make them useless.

Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty

it is the number of DEATHS that count,

Agreed. So the number is 230,000 in the US so far this year.

Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty

If the lock downs and masks work, the deaths shouldn't rise. In fact, there shouldn't be a rise in cases if the measures they put in place work.

Lockdowns would work if everything is locked down, like in South Korea, Japan, and a few other countries. And masks would work fine if everyone....or even if most people actually wore them. I can only speak about the US, because I live here...but about a third of the country never wears masks, no matter what the rules are. And so the virus still spreads, just not as fast.

Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty

More people are dying from avoiding this virus than they are from getting it.

Let that sink in^^^^^

It has sunk in plenty. It's simply not true. Suicides have gone up by a few percent, drug overdoses have gone up a little. But not even close to 230,000 in the Us. ( Over a million worldwide). It's a myth that can be easily checked. For some reason, this argument persists despite having all the numbers available to anyone.

Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty

Oh, and one last thing: The masks. The magical virus stoppers that protect you from getting a virus in your mouth and nose. Cool. Viruses hate the eyes.

Again...and again, and again, and again...the masks protect the other people from you. You are wearing a mask to keep your possible viral infection from spreading to other people...which the masks do very well. That's why everyone needs to wear them.

When you sneeze, yell, cough, or cheer...wearing a mask keeps your saliva (which carries the virus) from spreading to others. It doesn't keep you from getting the virus from someone else. (at least not perfectly).

M95 masks (and a few others) are actually designed to keep you from breathing in the virus from others. That's why hospital workers wear them.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by tagiscom

Covid is golden chalice for leaders who want smashed airports and non nonessential businesses to be gone, but as l can attest first hand that lifestyle is unsustainable

Yes, because what leaders of countries want more than anything else is for businesses who pay taxes to close, the people who voted for them to die, and to be blamed for a pandemic.

[Mark Singletary]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

No idea. Why would anyone working in a hospital lie about cause of death? Does the medical examiner get $100 for every Covid death

The following is more about hospitalizations than death.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...us/3000638001/

Our ruling: True
We rate the claim that hospitals get paid more if patients are listed as COVID-19 and on ventilators as TRUE.

Hospitals and doctors do get paid more for Medicare patients diagnosed with COVID-19 or if it's considered presumed they have COVID-19 absent a laboratory-confirmed test, and three times more if the patients are placed on a ventilator to cover the cost of care and loss of business resulting from a shift in focus to treat COVID-19 cases.

This higher allocation of funds has been made possible under the Coronavirus Aid, Relief and Economic Security Act through a Medicare 20% add-on to its regular payment for COVID-19 patients, as verified by USA TODAY through the American Hospital Association Special Bulletin on the topic.

The head of the CDC told Congress that he thinks some hospitals are padding the numbers for higher reimbursement rates but wasn't so sure they were padding the death counts. https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts...script-july-31

Rep. Blaine Luetkemeyer: One of the things that concerns me also is, I wish that Admiral Giroir was here yet, I asked this question of him time he was here, and we didn’t have enough time to continue our discussion on it, but it was regards to the sort of perverse incentive for the medical folks to claim that somebody died of COVID versus if it was an automobile accident, for instance, as long as you have COVID in your system, you get to claim it as a COVID death, which means you get to get more money as the attending physician, hospital, whatever. And he acknowledged that the statistics he’s getting from the states are overinflated.
...
Dr. Redfield, would you like to comment on that a little bit about the perverse incentive,

Robert Redfield:
Thank you, Congressman. I think you’re correct in that we’ve seen this in other disease processes too. Early in the HIV epidemic, somebody may have a heart attack, but also have HIV, the hospital would prefer the DRG for HIV because there’s greater reimbursement. So I do think there’s some reality to that. When it comes to death reporting though, I mean, ultimately, it’s how the physician defines it in the death certificate. In our national health statistics group here in Hyattsville, we review all those death certificates. So I think it’s probably less operable in the cause of death, although I won’t say they’re not some cases. I do think though, when it comes to hospital reimbursement issues for individuals that get discharged there could be some play in that for sure.

Mark

[lanfear63]

Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty

You see what they want you to see and your reasoning directly bleeds from the lie that this is a deadly virus, when statistically it is not.


Now, 6 times more deadly you say? That would mean the death rate is over 3 million considering half a million die from the flu, around the world, every year. See how biased you all are when it comes to the numbers? It's very sad to see so many gullible people play a role in destroying hundreds of millions of lives, which is exactly what is happening.

And it aint from the kung-covid-flu.

How many died of flu since covid? Whatever is less than average, add it to the covid numbers. By the way, it's October, flu is about to hit, and it won't be the flu cases they will report; it will be covid.

How many died from covid, not with it? It's what, 4%?.

How often are hospitals incentivized to put down covid as the cause of death? How many are incentivized to do the same with influenza? All of them were incentivized to put down 'death from covid'.

We have a casedemic now. Another little tool to keep you all on the edge of your seats in the basement.

Cases? What about the DEATH rate?

Cases? So this means masks are useless?

Cases? So the shutdown/distancing/etc. are useless?

And these are the fools you rely on to tell you what the numbers are? Seems there's a conflict of interest there. I mean, if I messed it up by destroying people's lives from pointless lock downs and forced people to wear a face diaper, then I too would be doing whatever it takes to make it look like there's a deadly virus out there.

It's just so easy to fool people. Too easy, in fact.

Everything the politicians and experts have said and done has done absolutely nothing except make things worse.

Prove me wrong without fudging the numbers. Compare the places with the strictest lock downs to the places with the most lax, and you'll see NO difference.

In a real pandemic,

it is the number of DEATHS that count,

NOT cases.

in a REAL pandemic, the numbers would be of DEAD people.

We now can see that MORE people are dying from the solution. But you lot want to keep playing the same silly game.

There is no shortage of science and data to challenge the flawed policies of the nation states whose basic playbook has been: lockdown, close economy, print money, ignore data, and double down. They don’t know how to do anything other than double-down on failure while everybody else bears the consequences.

Imagine if you will, a disease so deadly you have to be tested to find out you have it, and when you test positive for this deadly disease, they send you home.

Laughable.

Great Barrington Declaration
As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection.

Concerned Citizens
568,557
Medical & Public Health Scientists
11,104
Medical practitioners
31,000
https://gbdeclaration.org/#read

Over 40,000 medical scientists and practitioners who are clearly conspiracy theorists. There's literally tens of thousands more.

We know it's no more deadly than the flu. We knew it from the start. In fact, at the beginning of this very thread, there are links to epidemiologists who said exactly what would happen, and they were 100% right. But hey, ignore all that and keep listening to the very people who had to consistently keep walking back the exaggerated numbers they CLAIMED from the start.

Yes, the same people who told you masks were useless, only to walk it back later when the deaths started to fall. Yes, the same people who slandered anyone who got it right and didn't screw their citizens and ruin millions of lives from lock downs.

And pay attention as we move forward. Pay attention if the deaths start to rise as the flu season kicks in. Because if covid deaths increase, then you can be sure they are counting flu as covid, and if you don't believe it, then you have to then admit that the lock downs and masks didn't work, and hundreds of millions of people's lives were ruined for nothing.

You can't have it both ways.

If the lock downs and masks work, the deaths shouldn't rise. In fact, there shouldn't be a rise in cases if the measures they put in place work. Otherwise, what was the point? Because like it or not, you cannot destroy hundreds of millions of peoples lives unless your actions are guaranteed to make a difference. Otherwise, you do what Sweden and other places did.

More people are dying from avoiding this virus than they are from getting it.

Let that sink in^^^^^

Oh, and one last thing: The masks. The magical virus stoppers that protect you from getting a virus in your mouth and nose. Cool. Viruses hate the eyes.

61,000 IN 2017/18 Flu season in the US died of it, 225,00 from February to October in the US died from Covid. Simple math's really.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

Our ruling: True
We rate the claim that hospitals get paid more if patients are listed as COVID-19 and on ventilators as TRUE.

Hospitals and doctors do get paid more for Medicare patients diagnosed with COVID-19 or if it's considered presumed they have COVID-19 absent a laboratory-confirmed test, and three times more if the patients are placed on a ventilator to cover the cost of care and loss of business resulting from a shift in focus to treat COVID-19 cases.

This higher allocation of funds has been made possible under the Coronavirus Aid, Relief and Economic Security Act through a Medicare 20% add-on to its regular payment for COVID-19 patients, as verified by USA TODAY through the American Hospital Association Special Bulletin on the topic.


Mark

Of course. Medicare only pays part of the total cost. So hospitals get less money for Medicare patient care. They get added funds for Covid treatment.

It can be presumed that they have Covid, but they still get tested. And of course the hospitals get more money if they put you on a ventilator. But Hospitals don't put you on a ventilator unless you need it.

Everyone who dies with Covid (or is strongly suspected of Covid) tested positive. (Post mortem if they died right away) Nobody is going to try to fake a death certificate. That's a sure way to lose your medical license.

Covid patients are put in a separate wing of hospitals. They aren't mixed with other patients. That's why the incoming patients are tested. Once the result is known, they are moved to the Covid ward if it applies to them.

It would be extremely foolhardy, not to mention murder, to put a non-Covid patient with the other Covid patients. And every patient has several doctors (Technicians, nurses, specialists, people who administer the tests). All of them would have to be in on the scam to declare someone a Covid patient when they are not. One nurse that turns them in, and they all lose their medical liscence...at the very least.

[kenmichaels]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Of course. Medicare only pays part of the total cost. So hospitals get less money for Medicare patient care. They get added funds for Covid treatment.

It can be presumed that they have Covid, but they still get tested. And of course the hospitals get more money if they put you on a ventilator. But Hospitals don't put you on a ventilator unless you need it.

Everyone who dies with Covid (or is strongly suspected of Covid) tested positive. (Post mortem if they died right away) Nobody is going to try to fake a death certificate. That's a sure way to lose your medical license.

Covid patients are put in a separate wing of hospitals. They aren't mixed with other patients. That's why the incoming patients are tested. Once the result is known, they are moved to the Covid ward if it applies to them.

It would be extremely foolhardy, not to mention murder, to put a non-Covid patient with the other Covid patients. And every patient has several doctors (Technicians, nurses, specialists, people who administer the tests). All of them would have to be in on the scam to declare someone a Covid patient when they are not. One nurse that turns them in, and they all lose their medical liscence...at the very least.

Do you wonder why you keep hearing about money for covid patients?


At a rally in Wisconsin on Saturday, the president said systems for reporting COVID-19 related fatalities in the U.S. are "a little bit backwards."

Trump told the audience: "You know some countries they report differently. If somebody's sick with a heart problem, and they die of COVID they say they die of a heart problem. If somebody's terminally ill with cancer and they have COVID, we report them. And you know doctors get more money and hospitals get more money. Think of this incentive."

He went on: "We're going to start looking at things." ...



Jha said the idea that patients are documented as dying "with" COVID not "because of" the disease is "clinical nonsense." There is no evidence of a higher reimbursement for, for instance, car accident victims with COVID-19, and billing those patients as COVID-19 pneumonia is also fraudulent, he said.

[kenmichaels]

It's not about the deaths, it's about "excessive" deaths, and this year's marker says that its 300,000 above average. That puts COVID-19 at about 70,000 more deaths in the USA than are being reported.

That's important info, because if its true ( and I believe it, yearly stats are yearly stats...duh ) then that means we are on track for two million USA deaths.

Last night I found out I lost another friend to covid. This is no joke. The fact the FL is wide open now and will not allow mayors to enforce mask mandates means the proverbial shit is about to hit the fan.


As someone said earlier, I try to error on the side of caution, just in case. AND I don't want my kid to have life long issues because of my lack of understanding, so I double down on the caution for him.

I have spoken in circles for months with conspiracy theory types, they make me almost not give a f*** about people anymore and one of them is my brother with an I.Q of 155 - well, at least that's was what it was clocked at when he was a kid...

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

It's not about the deaths, it's about "excessive" deaths, and this year's marker says that's 300,000 above average. That puts COVID-19 at about 70,000 more deaths in the USA than are being reported.

I disagree about the excessive deaths. There are lots of reasons that 70,000 more people died this year than last. On average, every year the same number of people die...because eventually everyone dies. The 70,000 increase could just mean that a very small number are dying a year or two sooner. For example, a hurricane can kill some people, but then elderly people don't survive the moves, the change in their lives, the stress. And there is a small increase in suicides and drug overdoses...but a decrease in crimes.

70,000 people is just .002% (two in 100,000). It may be unreported Covid deaths...but there are plenty of other explanations.

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

I have spoken in circles for months with conspiracy theory types, they make me almost not give a f*** about people anymore and one of them is my brother with an I.Q of 155 - well, at least that's was what it was clocked at when he was a kid...

Intelligence is the ability to solve puzzles and think logically. It's a survival tool. But (this is hard for some people), Intelligence isn't the same as objectivity or thinking rationally.

A good conspiracy theory actually attracts the more intelligent, because it's honeycombed with puzzle pieces that attract the analytical mind. Don't try to change the mind of a conspiracy theory believer. It's like swimming in hot tar. It's exhausting, and you get nowhere.

And intelligence can only work with the quality of the knowledge it has. If your brother is wrong (assuming he is), it's because he accepts facts from a source in conflict with the source of your facts. You cannot change his mind unless you change where he gets his "facts".

Your brother undoubtedly believes that he is right, and that you are the one who doesn't "Get it". He means well, just as you do.

And...you have a brother. That's something that not everyone has.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

Jha said the idea that patients are documented as dying "with" COVID not "because of" the disease is "clinical nonsense." There is no evidence of a higher reimbursement for, for instance, car accident victims with COVID-19, and billing those patients as COVID-19 pneumonia is also fraudulent, he said.

The "Auto accident listed as a Covid case" example is one the uninformed bring up, thinking it makes sense.

What is actually possible is for someone with a serious condidion..and with Covid..to enter the hospital. On a ventilator...near death...sometimes it's actually hard to tell exactly the cause of death. If the person has lung cancer, a heart problem, and Covid, they all contribute. It's the doctor's best guess as to what killed the patient that day. But their best guess is based on quite a lot of information gathered during treatment.

If the patient is on a ventilator, and dies from lack of Oxygen, and a CAT scan shows the lungs are coated wih Covid...it has to be assumed that their Covid killed them, even if they have other ailments.

If they are in the hospital with Covid, and have a heart attack, it's the heart attack that killed them.

But almost nobody has two equally lethal ailments, where the cause of death isn't obvious.

And the people that think the doctors are fudging the causes of death are uninformed.