[1Bryan]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

And, I have to admit, Alex Jones hasn't endorsed Dr. Fauci. Maybe eventually.

Hi,

(edited)
But surgical mask manufacturers cannot legally make any claims about curbing viral transmission.

There's no science that would uphold in court that would back that claim.

It's not conspiracy theory to understand that.

And Dr. Fauci isn't a god. Or a prophet. He was wrong on lots of AIDS predictions.

And his mixed messaging has been questioned by legit epidemiologists.

Including one that will be part of Biden's team. So it's not some Qanon Trump Alex Jones thing.

But if that's what you are going to keep leaning on, so be it.

The world's bigger than that.

P.S. And it is funny to me. That Declan is painted with a certain brush. But he dropped actual legit scientific citations.

That's how un-science folks who believe in science like a religion have become. They don't even know what legit science journals are.

And argue on their feelings versus legit science citations.

Which is as non-science as you can get.

[tagiscom]

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

The talking points are different. But talking points aren't science. Fauci isn't Moses. Science isn't religion. Masks are not a Cross.

But even if you believe with all your heart masks work ...

.

Now you are getting it.

Anything their sites tell them is true is true no matter what, and no one brings up the most trusted medical site on our planet saying that masks are useless since their one says the opposite.

Far better to bring up the one with the alien reference. And Sweden may as well be on another planet.

Their sacred sites also brings up other subjects that are religious, so thankfully we can't discuss it here, but crosses can also spin.

And the science is also settled on that as well, regardless of the Grand Canyon holes appearing in their solid, science.

Anyone could easily prove or disprove that one, (on their own) but l keep in touch with it, for the sheer entertainment value, and its parallels with other cooky beliefs which are mixed up with pseudo-science.

[1Bryan]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

You have just let me know that anything said by the premier epidemiologist and immunologist in the country isn't good enough..

I'm going to use this to point something out.

So one of the points of peer-review in science is so nobody is treated like a demi-god who can dictate truth.

It's the idea that even the best scientists in the world can be biased, wrong, political, corrupt, etc, etc.

In science, you are NEVER supposed to allow one single man to dictate truth.

And that includes Dr. Fauci.

It doesn't mean I think everything he says is some form of quackery.

It means I understand science. Blind faith isn't science. Treating someone like a demi-god isn't science.

Not fact-checking because of someone's awesome bio?

Isn't science.

Appealing to their authority?

Isn't science.

[Declan O Flaherty]

Sigh. Yet another conspiracy theorists expert for you people to discredit:

Top pathologist Dr. Roger Hodkinson told government officials in Alberta that the current coronavirus crisis is “the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on an unsuspecting public.”

Hodkinson is also an expert in virology, and pointed out that his role as CEO of a biotech company that manufactures COVID tests means, “I might know a little bit about all this.”

“There is utterly unfounded public hysteria driven by the media and politicians, it’s outrageous, this is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on an unsuspecting public,” said Hodkinson.

The doctor said that nothing could be done to stop the spread of the virus besides protecting older more vulnerable people and that the whole situation represented “politics playing medicine, and that’s a very dangerous game.”

Hodkinson remarked that “social distancing is useless because COVID is spread by aerosols which travel 30 meters or so before landing,” as he called for society to be re-opened immediately to prevent the debilitating damage being caused by lockdowns.

Hodkinson also slammed mandatory mask mandates as completely pointless.

“Masks are utterly useless. There is no evidence base for their effectiveness whatsoever,” he said.

“Paper masks and fabric masks are simply virtue signalling. They’re not even worn effectively most of the time. It’s utterly ridiculous. Seeing these unfortunate, uneducated people – I’m not saying that in a pejorative sense – seeing these people walking around like lemmings obeying without any knowledge base to put the mask on their face.”

The doctor also slammed the unreliability of PCR tests, noting that “positive test results do not, underlined in neon, mean a clinical infection,” and that all testing should stop because the false numbers are “driving public hysteria.”

Hodkinson said that the risk of death in the province of Alberta for people under the age of 65 was “one in three hundred thousand,” and that it was simply “outrageous” to shut down society for what the doctor said “was just another bad flu.”

“I’m absolutely outraged that this has reached this level, it should all stop tomorrow,” concluded Dr. Hodkinson.

Hodkinson’s credentials are beyond question, with the MedMalDoctors website affirming his credibility.

“He received his general medical degrees from Cambridge University in the UK (M.A., M.B., B. Chir.) where he was a scholar at Corpus Christi College. Following a residency at the University of British Columbia he became a Royal College certified general pathologist (FRCPC) and also a Fellow of the College of American Pathologists (FCAP).”

“He is in good Standing with the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Alberta, and has been recognized by the Court of Queen’s Bench in Alberta as an expert in pathology.”

[agmccall]

The following figures are US Total deaths by year per **CDC**:

2013: 2,596,993
2014: 2,626,418
2015: 2,712,630
2016: 2,744,248
2017: 2,813,503
2018: 2,839,205
2019: 2,855,000
2020: as of 11/14 total deaths= 2,512,880

At present the US is experiencing a 1.12% increase in overall mortality rates for 2020. Is that normal?

Consider last year, 2019, there was also a 1.12% increase. Did we miss a pandemic in 2019?

But wait it’s even “scarier” - 2018 saw a 1.22% increase in mortality rates,

2017 saw a 1.24% increase,

2016 1.27% increase,

2015 1.27% increase,

2014 1.29% increase-

all exceeding 2020’s increase in mortality rate- so does this mean we have had pandemics for the last 7 years? Covid is a LIE folks.

al

[Kay King]

Crazy thing is - in every one of these posts - which seem to be veering toward arguments using red text and bold to 'shout' at each other....each has a kernel of truth....and none can be taken at face value.

The doctor said that nothing could be done to stop the spread of the virus besides protecting older more vulnerable people and that the whole situation represented “politics playing medicine, and that’s a very dangerous game.”

I don't need to research or vet that doctor to SEE that may well be the case. We are saying 'if everyone wore their masks properly we would be fine'? Of course not....the numbers are higher than they were BEFORE anyone was wearing masks...so....

But that doesn't prove, either, that masks are useless.

I'm not sure why it's necessary to argue which experts are better - they are all more educated in science than I am or most here are.

The best comment I've seen came from an economist on a panel a couple days ago....he said:

"The simple truth is that 80% of the covid deaths occur in 15% of the population". He said we saw that early on in New York and the 'experts' should have proposed full protection for THAT part of the citizenship....without the disruption of the economy being caused by limiting 100% of the population."

Declan is right - you don't see scientists saying 'me' - they say 'we'. I don't argue Fauci expertise but I have seen him get a bit carried a away with the media exposure. As a scientist - he should not conjecture but he has been doing that recently. Could be the knowledge he will still have his job after January - don't know. He needs to avoid over-exposure in my opinion.

The economist also predicted the stock market is currently suffering from 'euphoria due to the vaccine developments'. He said the damage to the economy in the past 10 months is far greater than we realize - and the US and perhaps global economy may well 'drop off a cliff by the end of 2021.'

What is the point of continuing the same arguments about 'experts' - or posting numbers that are available to anyone who looks for them? Why can't people post "I think" instead of trying to 'prove it'???

This is an interesting thread as long as it is discussing current events and ideas and activity - if it becomes an ongoing argument or pissing contest...it will end up closed and I don't want that.

Each person here has the right to their own opinion about this pandemic - no one has the right to dictate what others should think. Arguing something like this doesn't change minds.

[kenmichaels]

Originally Posted by agmccall

The following figures are US Total deaths by year per **CDC**:

2013: 2,596,993
2014: 2,626,418
2015: 2,712,630
2016: 2,744,248
2017: 2,813,503
2018: 2,839,205
2019: 2,855,000
2020: as of 11/14 total deaths= 2,512,880

At present the US is experiencing a 1.12% increase in overall mortality rates for 2020. Is that normal?

Consider last year, 2019, there was also a 1.12% increase. Did we miss a pandemic in 2019?

But wait it’s even “scarier” - 2018 saw a 1.22% increase in mortality rates,

2017 saw a 1.24% increase,

2016 1.27% increase,

2015 1.27% increase,

2014 1.29% increase-

all exceeding 2020’s increase in mortality rate- so does this mean we have had pandemics for the last 7 years? Covid is a LIE folks.

al

He's not joking and that's why we are half way f-'d and things wont be ending anytime soon.


--

No, it means you got bad data...that's why it's not available except on the fringe sites now.

But feel free to search for the outlier propaganda and cherry-pick the info that makes you feel safe.

[agmccall]

not my conversation, but it makes sense so it should probably not be in this thread

THIS IS THE About that Covid-19...

Me AT GROCERY STORE: Why is there plastic on the payment keypad?

Cashier: to protect people from Covid.

Me : but isn’t everyone touching the plastic keypad the same way they would the regular keypad?

Cashier: no words. Confused look

Me : Why Dont you pack the grocery bags anymore?

Cashier : Because of covid 19 to reduce the spread of catching or spreading the virus.

Me : But a shelf packer took it out of a box and put on the shelf, a few customers might of picked it up and put back deciding they Dont want it, I put it in my cart then on the conveyer belt, YOU pick it up to scan it.. But putting it in a bag after you scan is risky??

Cashier : no words, confused look

Me AT DRIVE-THRU

Server: (holds a tray out the window with a bag of food for a logical friend to grab)

Me: why is my bag of food on a tray?

Server: so I don’t touch your food because of Covid.

Me: didn’t the cook touch my food? Didn’t the person wrapping my food touch it and then touch it again when placing it in my bag? Didn’t you touch the bag and put it on the tray? Didn’t you touch the tray?

Server: no words. Confused look.

Me in SOCIETY

Society ; If you cough or sneeze do it in your elbow or sleeve,

Also society : Dont shake hands or hug anyone or you will spread the virus..
To greet people do an elbow tap instead.

Me : Elbow tap? Isn't that where you tell people to sneeze or cough? into their elbow? Now you want people to tap each other with that elbow, wouldn't it be safer to sneeze into elbow and shake hands like we did before Covid

Me AT RESTAURANT:

Hostess: ok, I can seat you at this table right here (4 feet away), but I will need you to wear a mask to the table.

Me: what happens when I get to the table?

Hostess: you can take off the mask.

Me: then it is safe over there?

Hostess: yes.

Me: are those fans blowing above the table? Is that the air-conditioning I feel? Is the air circulating in here?

Hostess: no words. Confused look.

SOCIETY : You are not allowed to stand and drink at the pub you have to sit down.
But at the shopping centre you are not allowed to sit down, all the chairs are roped off.

Who thinks this shit up?

Life is hard for logical people right now. We are being raised without the ability to process and execute logic.

( I am truly baffled at the lack of sense things make.)

We the people are making things more uncertainty than the actual virus.

[Odahh]

Originally Posted by Kay King

Crazy thing is -

The economist also predicted the stock market is currently suffering from 'euphoria due to the vaccine developments'. He said the damage to the economy in the past 10 months is far greater than we realize - and the US and perhaps global economy may well 'drop off a cliff by the end of 2021.'

What is the point of continuing the same arguments about 'experts' - or posting numbers that are available to anyone who looks for them? Why can't people post "I think" instead of trying to 'prove it'???

Each person here has the right to their own opinion about this pandemic - no one has the right to dictate what others should think. Arguing something like this doesn't change minds.

the world economy is adapting ..and the stock market has no relation to the real economy any more ..

instead of arguing about weather covid is even real or mask do anything .. because non of us is in a position to actually effect what is being done .or not done ..

we are all limited to doing what we can do on our individual level . we any prediction are only of value if we make changes or moves to be ready if those things happen .

at this point with vaccines coming into play .. by July covid should be a non issue .. and and the world economy will be recovering slowly .. or the new world economy will be emerging ..

we are most likely at the worst point in this .. and once this wave is over there will be a downward progression .

if we vaccinate those most at risk first .. elderly and front line medical workers .. and the deaths per day crash to a few hundred .. covid become a non issue . when it falls below drug overdoses ..

i doubt the worst case will happen .. now we need to imagining the stupid case .. instead of the best or worst case ..the stupid case will probably be the most likely to happen(and i wrote that before i read agmc's post it called safety theater )

[agmccall]

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

He's not joking and that's why we are half way f-'d and things wont be ending anytime soon.


--

No, it means you got bad data...that's why it's not available except on the fringe sites now.

But feel free to search for the outlier propaganda and cherry-pick the info that makes you feel safe.

The only real data that matters to me is the fact that I do not see people collapsing in the streets. Hospitals are not overflowing. People are "Testing Positive" but are not sick.

Look, if you are scared "to DEATH" of this so called deady illness, then stay home and hide but do not drag the rest of us down.

People who have put their whole lives into small businesses are losing them by the thousands. People can not travel or do things they enjoy.

Oh, sorry, I forgot. you can loot, riot, burn and steal. it does not spread to that group of people.

Politicians say, You need to stay home and inside. Then they get on a plane and go join their family. They say do not go to your vacation home in the UP of Michigan, then they go to theirs. The evidence is there for the public to see but most are too busy licking their boots to notice.

The argument has always been about the haves and have nots. Now because you have been convinced you are going to die then it is OK. Government has become your god and daily covid reports your gospel.

May you all stay safe from the Flu

al

[tagiscom]

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

I'm going to use this to point something out.

So one of the points of peer-review in science is so nobody is treated like a demi-god who can dictate truth.

It's the idea that even the best scientists in the world can be biased, wrong, political, corrupt, etc, etc.

In science, you are NEVER supposed to allow one single man to dictate truth.

And that includes Dr. Fauci.
.

Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty

Sigh. Yet another conspiracy theorists expert for you people to discredit:

Top pathologist Dr. Roger Hodkinson told government officials in Alberta that the current coronavirus crisis is “the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on an unsuspecting public.”

Hodkinson is also an expert in virology, and pointed out that his role as CEO of a biotech company that manufactures COVID tests means, “I might know a little bit about all this.”

“There is utterly unfounded public hysteria driven by the media and politicians, it’s outrageous, this is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on an unsuspecting public,” said Hodkinson.

”

Originally Posted by agmccall

The following figures are US Total deaths by year per **CDC**:

2018: 2,839,205
2019: 2,855,000
2020: as of 11/14 total deaths= 2,512,880

At present the US is experiencing a 1.12% increase in overall mortality rates for 2020. Is that normal?

Consider last year, 2019, there was also a 1.12% increase. Did we miss a pandemic in 2019?

But wait it’s even “scarier” - 2018 saw a 1.22% increase in mortality rates,

All valid points, and all useless, not useless in the context that they are wrong, but you are trying to convince someone or several people that they are wrong, and they are never wrong.

Mark my words, the next comments will be about words such as, "the medical data is settled, so no further discussions are possible", or "all of these examples are on the fringe or tin foil hats or the vibe is wrong" so it all can be ignored.

My site or sites are never wrong, so all of these examples are.

You guys are making the mistake l have made over and over elsewhere, where by l tried to show that their religion/science wasn't true, and after doing so, (took weeks to overcome every objection they could find) you know what, they vanished.

Then three months later reappeared and wanted me to dredge it all up again, or they forgot it all. I said No, to keep it simple.

Or in order to have a discussion you need all people to be open to new evidence, and to process it, rationally, (not irrationally and put a rational sticker on it, that is just saving your ass)

One of the reasons l bought virtual real estate.

I tend to take on new, evidence then move on, not see new evidence, that may knock my present beliefs, and dismiss it in any way possible, that isn't moving on, it is staying stuck.

I wish you lot well in trying to convince, but l would say you will be knocking yourselves against a brick wall.

The big tech giants even though impressive with their achievements also tend to be stupid in other areas, and they sensor and shut up those types over time, who show their beliefs are rubbish.

The right will always prevail since they have self verification on their side, but the other side have a big stick.

And what does the UK's population think of the new, Covid RNA vaccine, let's just say they have a new national anthem, and you won't find it on Youtube.

[Kay King]

Me AT GROCERY STORE: Why is there plastic on the payment keypad?

Cashier: to protect people from Covid.

Not a conversation at all - it's a post that has been making the rounds on facebook last week. I agree some of it is funny and on point....but...

It's not real - no one with any sense would expect a checkout person to know why a big corporation is saying 'do this'...beyond the pay grade.

In the grocery I reach my hand under the bag to punch in my code.... figure that's probably a cleaner area...

Russia has started vaccinations as has the U.K. (I think) - hopefully, we'll start soon....apparently the only US scientific community that can't be rushed...is the FDA.

[agmccall]

Originally Posted by Kay King

Not a conversation at all - it's a post that has been making the rounds on facebook last week. I agree some of it is funny and on point....but...

It's not real - no one with any sense would expect a checkout person to know why a big corporation is saying 'do this'...beyond the pay grade.

In the grocery I reach my hand under the bag to punch in my code.... figure that's probably a cleaner area...

Russia has started vaccinations as has the U.K. (I think) - hopefully, we'll start soon....apparently the only US scientific community that can't be rushed...is the FDA.

It is called an illustration of the absurdities of what is going on today not an actual conversation.

Vaccine or no vaccine just as long as it is not forced on us

al

[kenmichaels]

Originally Posted by agmccall

The only real data that matters to me is the fact that I do not see people collapsing in the streets. Hospitals are not overflowing. People are "Testing Positive" but are not sick.

al

So this NBA player losing seven family members to covid is what, a lie?

or this family who lost four

How about the people I have lost, am I lying?


btw;
I'm not scared because I wear a mask when I do my thing.


Edit:
Thanks for letting us know that was not a real conversation kay.

[Kay King]

I just read the latest 'bright idea' is a 'stimulus check' for those who AGREE to get the vaccine....


I don't like that - at all. It's a form of manipulation. If you can get the public to accept a gift in exchange for doing what you want them to do....it's not a stretch to take away from citizens next time to get them to fall into line.

I'd have no argument with a business - an airline, hotel, employer - requiring proof of vaccination....or with covid vaccination added to requirements for 'school shots'...

Has anyone else read of that latest proposal? What do you think?

[1Bryan]

Originally Posted by tagiscom

All valid points, and all useless, not useless in the context that they are wrong, but you are trying to convince someone or several people that they are wrong, and they are never wrong.

You're right about that. I do think it's funny tho. How I've gotten alluded to being a conspiracy theorist.

Based on me understanding Covid transmission (known in the medical community since late January/early February), the difference between bacteria and virus (6th grade science), and what a medical journal link looks like (not "news" links).

Somehow that makes some people think they know what "box" to put me in haha.

Apparently, getting your information on Covid from the world of science journals, medical podcasts, and Cancer centers ...

Makes some folks think you are a nutjob conspiracy theorist.

Haha.

P.S. I think I shall now get all my health news from Hersheys. My sports news from C-Span. And my Politics from Disney. Good plan, right?

;-)

[Odahh]

Originally Posted by Kay King

I just read the latest 'bright idea' is a 'stimulus check' for those who AGREE to get the vaccine....


I don't like that - at all. It's a form of manipulation. If you can get the public to accept a gift in exchange for doing what you want them to do....it's not a stretch to take away from citizens next time to get them to fall into line.

I'd have no argument with a business - an airline, hotel, employer - requiring proof of vaccination....or with covid vaccination added to requirements for 'school shots'...

Has anyone else read of that latest proposal? What do you think?

if vaccines where widely available .already .. id have no problem getting paid 1500 dollars for getting vaccinated if the vaccine was free as well .. and if the check are going to be for a few months .

if with filing for the stimulus check .. i also get a voucher in the mail that pays for the vaccination .. and after i get the vaccination i get a few more months with a check .

instead of a coercive system where .. get vaccinated or we punish you .. i prefer a system where.. we will pay you if you do what we want ..

[Profit Traveler]

The comments I read about COVID being a lie ...a hoax if you will, is exactly the response that got us here today instead when we could have been discussing COVID in the past tense.


What if when it was only double digit infections instead of dreaming of it magically going away from there someone took massive action to make it so.


Are the infections a lie? Are the Deaths a lie? Was there a COVID plan created and never even read let alone implemented? Is super spreading a lie? Is Hot spots a lie?


Are States that went out there way to re-open now back pedaling to lockdowns because they are living in a fantasy?


Someone here mentioned that is was all just politicaly...nope just pure incompetence at the highest levels.


And if you think a deadly virus is a lie congratulations you are an additional deadly virus.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

Appealing to their authority?

Isn't science.

To be fair, I knew I was "appealing to authority" when I posted. I did it to see if you would recognize it.

Now I know you have more than a few brain cells. And...any link to a resource is an appeal to authority. Either the authority of the website or the authority of the writer. So...there are no "legit" links. Because all are appeals to authority.

But a friendly piece of advice. Stop saying "Legit". The only people that say "Legit" in normal conversations are criminals.

Originally Posted by Kay King

I just read the latest 'bright idea' is a 'stimulus check' for those who AGREE to get the vaccine....


I don't like that - at all. It's a form of manipulation. If you can get the public to accept a gift in exchange for doing what you want them to do....it's not a stretch to take away from citizens next time to get them to fall into line.

I'd have no argument with a business - an airline, hotel, employer - requiring proof of vaccination....or with covid vaccination added to requirements for 'school shots'...

Has anyone else read of that latest proposal? What do you think?

I've heard it as well. I think it's just an idea being promoted by the same people that believe everyone should get a check for nothing. A small but vocal group.

I doubt very much that it will happen.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by agmccall

all exceeding 2020’s increase in mortality rate- so does this mean we have had pandemics for the last 7 years? Covid is a LIE folks.

al

I was wondering when someone would bring this up.

The death rates are increasing over the last several years because we are an aging population. Baby Boomers are now aging out, and dying. So that's why there have been increased deaths per thousand over the last several years. But you quoted total deaths per year. Of course, with an expanding population, there will be more deaths per year, as long as the population is growing.

Another mathematical certainty...

We are all going to die And we are only going to die once. And Covid kills mostly the elderly.

If there was never a vaccine, eventually the deaths would simply stop increasing, because the deaths per year would average out. With Covid, some people will just die earlier than normal, like with any pandemic, or natural disaster.

And...to be honest, I really thought that when people said "There are people who say "Covid is a lie", that they were just saying nonsense. I didn't want to believe anyone would say that.

I want to say categorically, your post is proof that I was wrong.

Another thing that has occurred to me. This thread has become a catch all for the crackpots of the forum. When it was only (The one idiot member), it was kind of fun....Poking (The one idiot member) with a stick can be entertaining.

But this is now sane people arguing with the delusional.

It isn't fun. If the rest of the sane members want to continue "debating" here, that's up to you.

This has turned into another "Space dogs on Mars" thread.

[Dan Riffle]

Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty

Sigh. Yet another conspiracy theorists expert for you people to discredit:

Top pathologist Dr. Roger Hodkinson told government officials in Alberta that the current coronavirus crisis is “the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on an unsuspecting public.”

Hodkinson is also an expert in virology, and pointed out that his role as CEO of a biotech company that manufactures COVID tests means, “I might know a little bit about all this.”

“There is utterly unfounded public hysteria driven by the media and politicians, it’s outrageous, this is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on an unsuspecting public,” said Hodkinson.

The doctor said that nothing could be done to stop the spread of the virus besides protecting older more vulnerable people and that the whole situation represented “politics playing medicine, and that’s a very dangerous game.”

Hodkinson remarked that “social distancing is useless because COVID is spread by aerosols which travel 30 meters or so before landing,” as he called for society to be re-opened immediately to prevent the debilitating damage being caused by lockdowns.

Hodkinson also slammed mandatory mask mandates as completely pointless.

“Masks are utterly useless. There is no evidence base for their effectiveness whatsoever,” he said.

“Paper masks and fabric masks are simply virtue signalling. They’re not even worn effectively most of the time. It’s utterly ridiculous. Seeing these unfortunate, uneducated people – I’m not saying that in a pejorative sense – seeing these people walking around like lemmings obeying without any knowledge base to put the mask on their face.”

The doctor also slammed the unreliability of PCR tests, noting that “positive test results do not, underlined in neon, mean a clinical infection,” and that all testing should stop because the false numbers are “driving public hysteria.”

Hodkinson said that the risk of death in the province of Alberta for people under the age of 65 was “one in three hundred thousand,” and that it was simply “outrageous” to shut down society for what the doctor said “was just another bad flu.”

“I’m absolutely outraged that this has reached this level, it should all stop tomorrow,” concluded Dr. Hodkinson.

Hodkinson’s credentials are beyond question, with the MedMalDoctors website affirming his credibility.

“He received his general medical degrees from Cambridge University in the UK (M.A., M.B., B. Chir.) where he was a scholar at Corpus Christi College. Following a residency at the University of British Columbia he became a Royal College certified general pathologist (FRCPC) and also a Fellow of the College of American Pathologists (FCAP).”

“He is in good Standing with the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Alberta, and has been recognized by the Court of Queen’s Bench in Alberta as an expert in pathology.”

Sigh.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/dr-roger-hodkinson-covid-hoax/

[Dan Riffle]

Originally Posted by agmccall

The only real data that matters to me is the fact that I do not see people collapsing in the streets. Hospitals are not overflowing.

My hospitals are. The last I read, they're at 85% capacity and are boarding covid patients in the emergency room. That's a problem.

[Profit Traveler]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I was wondering when someone would bring this up.

The death rates are increasing over the last several years because we are an aging population. Baby Boomers are now aging out, and dying. So that's why there have been increased deaths per thousand over the last several years. But you quoted total deaths per year. Of course, with an expanding population, there will be more deaths per year, as long as the population is growing.

Another mathematical certainty...

We are all going to die And we are only going to die once. And Covid kills mostly the elderly.

If there was never a vaccine, eventually the deaths would simply stop increasing, because the deaths per year would average out. With Covid, some people will just die earlier than normal, like with any pandemic, or natural disaster.

And...to be honest, I really thought that when people said "There are people who say "Covid is a lie", that they were just saying nonsense. I didn't want to believe anyone would say that.

I want to say categorically, your post is proof that I was wrong.

Another thing that has occurred to me. This thread has become a catch all for the crackpots of the forum. When it was only (The one idiot member), it was kind of fun....Poking (The one idiot member) with a stick can be entertaining.

But this is now sane people arguing with the delusional.

It isn't fun. If the rest of the sane members want to continue "debating" here, that's up to you.

This has turned into another "Space dogs on Mars" thread.

You hit it out the park. Drop the mic.


This place/WF was always my go to destination when I wanted to feel sane because at it's core this place would expose truth one way or another and maybe we just did it again. I was actually feeling stress after a visit felt like twilight zone.



Salute!

[Kay King]

If you want an interesting covid story - look up sweden's response NOW. I know it was mentioned in this thread several times as a 'model' - but seems they are having the same problems as the US....increasing cases and increasing death toll.


Turns out Sweden didn't have 'the answer' after all? Perhaps there is no answer except to get through this mess as best we can?

[Declan O Flaherty]

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

Sigh.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/dr...on-covid-hoax/

You do realise fact checkers are not actually fact checkers, right? Just like people who tell stories on CNN aren't journalists.



Sigh.

[Mark Singletary]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Another thing that has occurred to me. This thread has become a catch all for the crackpots of the forum. When it was only (The one idiot member), it was kind of fun....Poking (The one idiot member) with a stick can be entertaining.

But this is now sane people arguing with the delusional.

It isn't fun. If the rest of the sane members want to continue "debating" here, that's up to you.

Here ya go folks. Here's what happens when you don't toe the party line or if you have a different thought than the supposedly important (I mean sane) people. You are canceled.

In this case, called delusional or a crackpot. Belittled.

Your opinion doesn't count. Your background or knowledge doesn't count nor does any doctor or scientist that isn't 100% on board with the accepted narrative. You are just wrong. Delusional.

Typical of 2020 not just on COVID-19. And, embarrassing for the forum, a discussion forum, where people may have different opinions.

Mark

[Odahh]

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

Here ya go folks. Here's what happens when you don't toe the party line or if you have a different thought than the supposedly important (I mean sane) people. You are canceled.

In this case, called delusional or a crackpot. Belittled.

Your opinion doesn't count. Your background or knowledge doesn't count nor does any doctor or scientist that isn't 100% on board with the accepted narrative. You are just wrong. Delusional.

Typical of 2020 not just on COVID-19. And, embarrassing for the forum, a discussion forum, where people may have different opinions.

Mark

claude is not a mod he is a member with his own views .. that i disagree with when they are not about making money ..

claude has not cancelled you or anyone else.. he just expressed his view .. that he does not want oto argue with you any more .

key mentioned this thread is at risk of being locked .. that was ignored .

you .1bryan, dunkan and shane .. can have you social group .. once you get this thread locked

canceling require you to be again hundred of thousands thousands of dozens or hundres of random social media people claude withdraing from wanting to argue with ou .. is not him canceling you

those of you clearly saying covid is not a problame.. shane ,brian duncan and mike. you are all of course uder the opinion .. there is no need to get the vaccine .

or will you take up arms and do everything you can not to gewt vaccinatited

[tagiscom]

Originally Posted by agmccall

It is called an illustration of the absurdities of what is going on today not an actual conversation.

Vaccine or no vaccine just as long as it is not forced on us

al

Agreed, this is run by politicians and junk science, Sweden used verified and proven science, so there policies where not absurd.

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

You're right about that. I do think it's funny tho. How I've gotten alluded to being a conspiracy theorist.

Based on me understanding Covid transmission (known in the medical community since late January/early February), the difference between bacteria and virus (6th grade science), and what a medical journal link looks like (not "news" links).

Somehow that makes some people think they know what "box" to put me in haha.

Apparently, getting your information on Covid from the world of science journals, medical podcasts, and Cancer centers ...

Makes some folks think you are a nutjob conspiracy theorist.

Haha.

P.S. I think I shall now get all my health news from Hersheys. My sports news from C-Span. And my Politics from Disney. Good plan, right?

;-)

Lol, yes as l previously said brainwashing and indocrination over the last 50 years has left its mark, and some will refuse to give it up, so they go to their favorite site, with big budgets and beautiful wall to wall lies, then ignore the actual facts, (you know the ones a kid could verify on their own).

Originally Posted by Kay King

If you want an interesting covid story - look up sweden's response NOW. I know it was mentioned in this thread several times as a 'model' - but seems they are having the same problems as the US....increasing cases and increasing death toll.

Turns out Sweden didn't have 'the answer' after all? Perhaps there is no answer except to get through this mess as best we can?

They do actually, but the powerbrokers in society are pushing the jab, hard and rubbishing Sweden as much as they can. I read some properganda article in the back of my paper yesterday saying how Sweden got everything wrong and are suffering now, which is absolute BS, their current death rate is one every few days from Covid, and their borders are open. Sure, my state has had no new cases for 40 days, and one death, (where Covid may have played a part).

But we also cannot fling out borders open, Sweden can.

From now one there will be a huge campaign to smear Sweden, and call people who will not get any jab, selfish, greedy and who knows what crap they will come up with?

And we have pushed over drugs that were considered safe in the past, which didn't go well.

Originally Posted by Odahh

claude is not a mod he is a member with his own views .. that i disagree with when they are not about making money ..

claude has not cancelled you or anyone else.. he just expressed his view .. that he does not want oto argue with you any more .

key mentioned this thread is at risk of being locked .. that was ignored .

you .1bryan, dunkan and shane .. can have you social group .. once you get this thread locked

canceling require you to be again hundred of thousands thousands of dozens or hundres of random social media people claude withdraing from wanting to argue with ou .. is not him canceling you

those of you clearly saying covid is not a problame.. shane ,brian duncan and mike. you are all of course uder the opinion .. there is no need to get the vaccine .

or will you take up arms and do everything you can not to gewt vaccinatited

Ok, l missed that rant, with the obvious question being if he is 100% right and his sources are impeccable then why the rant?

And as for the vaccine, no l won't get it, it has been proven safe, but vaccines require at least 10 to 15 years to be deemed safe.

Plenty of other things that where deemed safe throughout history, and 10 years later or sooner clearly were not.

As for Australia, we won't be forced to get it, although the unemployed will most likely not get any more Covid payments in March if they refuse, and a few crackpot corporations will require the Covid green card, which l will gladly avoid.

I would be happy to get Covid as l did when l got SARS, 7 years ago, achieve immunity and carry on, and fit and healthy people also die of the flu, (Google that).

[Odahh]

shane .

10 -15 years before vaccines where considered safe . you mean before mostly everyone in the US got a vaccine .. then it got to other countries outside the US .. what is the last or only vaccine not developed in the US ... before covid..

honetly i need to be educated on this ..what are the vaccines .. that where not developed in the US ..first . that are used around the world..

is AU going to use the vaccine developed in russia .. or china . or the vaccines the us developed .. after the use takes care of the US ..

or does au have its own vaccine

it might work out that waiting to se how vaccines work out when givent to all US citizens firetan and everone else a decade later . doze not work anymore

[1Bryan]

Originally Posted by Odahh

claude is not a mod he is a member with his own views .. that i disagree with when they are not about making money ..

claude has not cancelled you or anyone else.. he just expressed his view .. that he does not want oto argue with you any more .

key mentioned this thread is at risk of being locked .. that was ignored .

you .1bryan, dunkan and shane .. can have you social group .. once you get this thread locked

canceling require you to be again hundred of thousands thousands of dozens or hundres of random social media people claude withdraing from wanting to argue with ou .. is not him canceling you

those of you clearly saying covid is not a problame.. shane ,brian duncan and mike. you are all of course uder the opinion .. there is no need to get the vaccine .

or will you take up arms and do everything you can not to gewt vaccinatited

Hi,

I mentioned this before. Somehow I've got lumped into a group I am not a part of.

I am not anti-vaccine. And I am not a Covid denier.

Understanding that a MMR vaccine and a Covid vaccine are not the same exact thing ...

Doesn't make someone wear a tinfoil hat.

Understanding that Covid vaccines are what would be called "experimental" in any other period of time ...

Is not conspiracy theory.

We're supposed to learn. For real. Not memorize some talking points and headlines and call it "learning".

Something is very wrong. When critical thinking, learning, and nuanced thought ...

Become "conspiracy theory".

And when thinking collapses into quick soundbites, memorized headlines, and everything is black and white.

Someone can recite the mantra -- about things being shades of grey.

But then when their actual thinking is ... all X are Y.

Like all vaccines are safe.

Like all masks are the same.

Both are wrong statements. Too generalized. And just not accurate. Masks have variety, classifications and uses. Not all the same.

There've been bad vaccines in the past in the US. Even more around the world. Plus plenty that never made it to market because they were bad. So you can't ever truthfully say ... all vaccines are safe.

And if ya must know ... my son and I have all of our vaccines. So anti-vaxx? The evidence says nope.

P.S. Even scarier? There's plenty of research that shows, lots of folks can't differentiate between proper science and science propaganda.

Pharma and Supplements have used science propaganda very well.

But that doesn't mean I don't take a multi-vitamin. Or that I think my mom shouldn't take her Parkinson's medications and her chemo treatments.

Because a multi-vitamin isn't the same as some lame Monster Ultra Ripped Test-Stack and her chemo isn't the same as opioids over-prescribed with the risks intentionally under-represented.

There's nuance. But it can't be a mantra. It can't be parroted like a drone.

You actually have to dive into the nuance to see it.

And folks who don't learn science, but instead learn science soundbites?

Tend to not understand the nuance of it.

With biology and biochemistry, there's more nuance than most branches of science. So even more so ...

Memorizing soundbites is super silly.

Haha. Legit.

[Mark Singletary]

I don't know how you come to the conclusion that I'm some sort of denier. I am not and have said so multiple times. I have never said COVID was no problem. I have said repeatedly that people are dying and getting sick from this thing.

I wear a mask. I social distance where I can. I canceled travel plans almost a year ago with no sign that it's safe to travel yet back to the states. I have said nothing about my willingness to get a vaccine shot simply because I haven't decided yet. Besides the required MMR type vaccines, I've never taken other vaccines. For example, I don't think I've ever had a flu shot. Someone posted a link about this vaccine being made from blue crabs and I'm deathly allergic to shellfish so I will need to do some research. But I'm not against it, I just haven't decided yet.

So, I'm not sure how I'm lumped in with others who may oppose those measures.

Because I ask questions and try to figure things out that make sense to me so I can make up my own mind? I question some of the mass media stories, some of the politician's decisions, and some of the data. But I've never denied.

As far as the thread getting locked because of me, I would appreciate it if you can show me my posts that break the rules. As far as I know I haven't called anyone names or personally attacked anyone. I haven't shared political links. I have called for civility a couple of times now. Where have I gone wrong? I'm very aware of the rules and exactly what they say since I was part of the group that wrote them but maybe you have seen where I've violated them. Hit the red triangle on anything you see that breaks the rules and one of the other mods will handle it.

Mark

Originally Posted by Odahh

claude is not a mod he is a member with his own views .. that i disagree with when they are not about making money ..

claude has not cancelled you or anyone else.. he just expressed his view .. that he does not want oto argue with you any more .

key mentioned this thread is at risk of being locked .. that was ignored .

you .1bryan, dunkan and shane .. can have you social group .. once you get this thread locked

canceling require you to be again hundred of thousands thousands of dozens or hundres of random social media people claude withdraing from wanting to argue with ou .. is not him canceling you

those of you clearly saying covid is not a problame.. shane ,brian duncan and mike. you are all of course uder the opinion .. there is no need to get the vaccine .

or will you take up arms and do everything you can not to gewt vaccinatited

[shohel75]

The great Murray Rothbard said, "An entrepreneur is nothing more than a speculator".

We as marketers must keep our eye on what's coming down the road so we can take action, to avoid harm or ride a wave.

[Profit Traveler]

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

Here ya go folks. Here's what happens when you don't toe the party line or if you have a different thought than the supposedly important (I mean sane) people. You are canceled.

In this case, called delusional or a crackpot. Belittled.

Your opinion doesn't count. Your background or knowledge doesn't count nor does any doctor or scientist that isn't 100% on board with the accepted narrative. You are just wrong. Delusional.

Typical of 2020 not just on COVID-19. And, embarrassing for the forum, a discussion forum, where people may have different opinions.

Mark

There really is no meeting in the middle with the folks who drank the kool-aid in Jonestown or the people that saw a comet and decided to "get beamed up" via the ultimate sacrifice or the people that have an exact date for the end of the world.


The same people I see with public ak47s over just about everything including wearing a mask, are the same ones that were aghast at the thought of someone taking a knee.



2020 can be defined as the year a certain type of person that is certainly not a scientist began mocking scientist and simple math...there is no meeting in the middle to that.

[Princess Balestra]

Moi AT GROCERY STORE: May I shop for zucchini today in a wetsoot?

Cashier: no words, confoosed look.

Moi: Aw, see — I could wrap musself in all kindsa plastic to guard against Covid, but I don't wanna look like nowan outta no porno.

Cashier: A wetsuit is hardly fetish-unfriendly.

Moi: Yeah, but this is purely medicinal. *turns around to show off rear areah* I got an aqualung to be sure I ain't breathin' in nuthin' daynejriss, plus also I adapted a snorkyool attachment for if'n I get the snickers.

Cashier: Whah?

Moi: K, so let's cover the snickers backstory before we get on to the death aversion. I so love your store bcs sumtimes you got vegetables packin' srs funnee shapes, which is why I shop here an' naht WalMart.

Cashier: Shapes?

Moi: Aw, c'mon, you know! Like faces an' stuff. Boobies.

Cashier: no words, confoosed look.

Moi: Thing is, if'n I see any vegetables lookin' like boobies — or anythin' even more provocatively protooberent — likely ima blow this plug outta my nose an' snort Covid all ovah less'n I got my snorkyool attachment in place.

Cashier: Snore kewl?

Moi: Zackly. I made it musself outta a reular snorkyool an' a length of hose — an' that is why ima askin' if'n I can come in your store, cos I gotta trail the hose outta the door so any Covid snicker breath comin' out my nose bcs I seen like a real weirdsy carrot gets pumped outside into the genrl atmosphere.

Cashier: Uhm ... so why the pirate hat?

Moi: I am a natchrlly eboolient person with a real developed sense of irony. Plus also I won it ovah Thanksgivin' for bein' best at charades. Mom bagged the cutlass, Granma won the parrot.

Cashier: I see. *points to sign on the door* You do realise we operate a NO FLIPPERS policy in store?

Moi: Awkay, you want I leave 'em outside?

Cashier: Just use the hooks provided. Give me a sec, and I'll fetch someone to help you with your hose.

Moi: Could take a while to uncoil bcs it is 55 feet long — an' I know this bcs I bought two at a discount an' measured this one with the othah hose.

Cashier: Hmmm. That won't reach our zucchini section. Perhaps it would be easier if I sent my assistant to fetch your vegetable rather than help you uncoil your hose.

Moi: Awkay, it's a deal. Get 'em to select a beer on the way round an' I will cover it.

Cashier: Actually, why don't I just do it myself ...?

[tagiscom]

Originally Posted by Odahh

shane .

10 -15 years before vaccines where considered safe . you mean before mostly everyone in the US got a vaccine .. then it got to other countries outside the US .. what is the last or only vaccine not developed in the US ... before covid..

honetly i need to be educated on this ..what are the vaccines .. that where not developed in the US ..first . that are used around the world..

is AU going to use the vaccine developed in russia .. or china . or the vaccines the us developed .. after the use takes care of the US ..

or does au have its own vaccine

it might work out that waiting to se how vaccines work out when givent to all US citizens firetan and everone else a decade later . doze not work anymore

Not sure what you mean about the 15 year remark, but Australia is developing the RNA, Bill Gates, Pfizer, one among others in our country, although we need to create the 10 million doses off shore as we don't have the infrastructure to make it here.

And we will have access to it in March, or ScoMo wants to wait and see, if the side affects warrant mass rollouts or not, (a sensible move).

Sure 10 years is a contradiction in terms, especially with the faithful smashing everything, and l do advocate it for the individuals in the high risk group, (although l would recommend that they only take the conventional vaccine ones, instead of the new, Gene splicing versions). As the RNA one has no 10 year benchmarks, conventional vaccines do. I believe that the Russian one is highly effective and uses the tried and tested, infect a person with a tiny amount of Covid so they build immunity.

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

Hi,

I mentioned this before. Somehow I've got lumped into a group I am not a part of.

I am not anti-vaccine. And I am not a Covid denier.

Understanding that a MMR vaccine and a Covid vaccine are not the same exact thing ...

Doesn't make someone wear a tinfoil hat.

Understanding that Covid vaccines are what would be called "experimental" in any other period of time ...

Is not conspiracy theory.

We're supposed to learn. For real. Not memorize some talking points and headlines and call it "learning".

Something is very wrong. When critical thinking, learning, and nuanced thought ...

Become "conspiracy theory".

And when thinking collapses into quick soundbites, memorized headlines, and everything is black and white.

Someone can recite the mantra -- about things being shades of grey.

But then when their actual thinking is ... all X are Y.

Like all vaccines are safe.

Like all masks are the same.

Both are wrong statements. Too generalized. And just not accurate. Masks have variety, classifications and uses. Not all the same.

There've been bad vaccines in the past in the US. Even more around the world. Plus plenty that never made it to market because they were bad. So you can't ever truthfully say ... all vaccines are safe.

And if ya must know ... my son and I have all of our vaccines. So anti-vaxx? The evidence says nope.

P.S. Even scarier? There's plenty of research that shows, lots of folks can't differentiate between proper science and science propaganda.

Pharma and Supplements have used science propaganda very well.

Agreed, viruses peak in winter and wane in summer, (as do flu's) which is wonderful for politicians wanting to push masks, or vaccines and look like the savors of the people when the seasons change and the virus dissipates, (unfortunately works well in my country).

[agmccall]

Originally Posted by Kay King

Turns out Sweden didn't have 'the answer' after all? Perhaps there is no answer except to get through this mess as best we can?

Wait, What are you saying.....Do you mean Sweden did nothing and there is an increase during cold and flu season? And we did everything and are having the same results.

Seems to me like we could have done the same and had a lot less misery and destruction

al

[Princess Balestra]

Meantimes ...

as the Oith spins between Venus an' Mars ...

circlin' heat an' light 'gainst a horizon of frankly DIRTY soundin' planets ...

on out into the void ...

I would wanna figure global breath of life kinda important here.

Pulse of all our stuff VS oblivion.

Which is why we gettin' smartah now 'bout what we burnin' up, what we abyoozin', how much longah we can go on pattin' usselves on the back like we the only self-replicatin' lucky wondahs in the Zeroscape.

So I would wanna figure anythin' killin' nowan bcs you wanna kiss up sweet with all your heart is speshly frickin' dangerous.

Less'n we all flyin' out now toward a horizon of Covid-smited possibility, likely the same science guys meant the internet era ain't nevah got no MUMPS FORUM can kinda do their stuff without no stoopifactionwaahl presserdunks.

Always gotta kiss up aftah, yanno?

Else'n we all stay apart.

Into whose enclave of selective veneration would YOU wanna wander?

It is abominably heartening how Covid don't give AF.

You let her get her way, she will destroy you.

So ... no kissin' for a while.

But for sures you bettah be primin' your lips for what is comin' next.

"Centre of equal daughters, equal sons,
All, all alike endear’d, grown, ungrown, young or old,
Strong, ample, fair, enduring, capable, rich,
Perennial with the Earth, with Freedom, Law and Love,
A grand, sane, towering, seated Mother,
Chair’d in the adamant of Time."

Ain't happnin' if'n we all dust, poppets.

Jus' ain't.

[1Bryan]

Originally Posted by Profit Traveler

There really is no meeting in the middle with the folks who drank the kool-aid in Jonestown or the people that saw a comet and decided to "get beamed up" via the ultimate sacrifice or the people that have an exact date for the end of the world.


The same people I see with public ak47s over just about everything including wearing a mask, are the same ones that were aghast at the thought of someone taking a knee.



2020 can be defined as the year a certain type of person that is certainly not a scientist began mocking scientist and simple math...there is no meeting in the middle to that.

Those are cartoon-ish stereotypes. And not accurate of how the world really is. But a good example of why news outlets can crop a picture ...

And make people believe a narrative.

To paint a deplorable picture.

And now you have folks walking around. With a Nike Swoosh on their facemask. Feeling self-righteous.

Wondering how they got Covid.

Didn't they say Covid can't spread at a protest ... that's woke?

And it's like ... ho hum. How do we even separate all this out? There's no science in any of that.

Even if folks wanna claim science is their religion.

Yet can't answer this question --

If the flu and Covid have similar transmission ...

And even with vaccines and immunity we don't stop flu from having exponential growth ...

How is it even possible to do that with Covid ...

With most people using stuff made for bacteria and not virus?

But to answer that, you have to learn that Covid has a flu-like transmission. And you have to learn the difference between bacterial transmission and viral transmission.

And then ...

Oh it's too hard.

Tell me what to believe oh woke ones. I've outsourced my thinking.

Gimme guaranteed safety. In steps the politicians. Haha. But they can't deliver on that promise.

The Universe has it's own rules.

[kenmichaels]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

But this is now sane people arguing with the delusional.

Welcome to my world. All of my neighbors and every single person I have talked to in the real world in the last 8 months in Florida thinks this way. Including my in-laws, whom I spend a lot of time around even though we're divorced.

I have even said to myself, jeash, is it possible, that I'm plain wrong and all of my neighbors and a lot of my family are correct? And that self inflection put me into a tailspin for a few weeks, luckily for me, I'm pretty strong internally and soon realized, that I went to school and I am probably over-educated if anything, and I got A's as a kid and later carried full-ride scholarships at (SBU) Stony Brook, which is no easy task. So despite the fact, that I'm not an epidemiologist I have a fairly firm grasp of the situation. Enough anyway to keep my friends and family safe, if anyone actually listened to me, which they don't, at all. In all this time I have managed to convince two people to stay home and one to wear a mask at work. That's it.

In my neighborhood, a literal stone's throw away is one of the elderly assisted living facilities that have been hardest hit by deaths in the area (like 30 or 40, I don't know the exact number). On my block, we lost a 44-year-old. The block over a few people I do not know. My corner bodega is the favorite local shop, where everyone, including all of the visitors and nurses from the assisted facility, congregate.

And nobody in my neighborhood wears a mask (except my family).
And nobody in my neighborhood believes it's real.

So why do I keep posting here? Why do I keep talking when I'm out and about? It's rather simple really. I feel obligated.

Why do I feel obligated? I'm not sure, maybe it's because I only got to where I am in life with help. Or maybe, it's because both sides of my family immigrated here, one before the colonies existed and the other side to the Boston colony after it was established, and ever since then my family has been first responders of every kind and we have been in every war for this country. But not me, my father and brothers, yes, me no. I chose business and did well - so I'm the pampered softie, but I still have enough family blood in me to stop the car and rescue someone from a burning building (yes, I did that) and that's what I kinda feel is happening here, the house is burning, no one sees it and I need to keep yelling "Fire!" as I do my thing.

[tagiscom]

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

Those are cartoon-ish stereotypes. And not accurate of how the world really is. But a good example of why news outlets can crop a picture ...

And make people believe a narrative.

To paint a deplorable picture.

And now you have folks walking around. With a Nike Swoosh on their facemask. Feeling self-righteous.

Wondering how they got Covid.

Didn't they say Covid can't spread at a protest ... that's woke?

And then ...

Oh it's too hard.

Tell me what to believe oh woke ones. I've outsourced my thinking.

Gimme guaranteed safety. In steps the politicians. Haha. But they can't deliver on that promise.

The Universe has it's own rules.

I think that l know the answer to that question.

Sweden is horrible, l hate Sweden, Satan lives in Sweden, bad, bad Sweden.

Gene splicing vaccines are good, and wholesome, and protects your grandparents, (ignore the flu parallels) and you will go to heaven if you get jabbed, (l won't say it).

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

So why do I keep posting here? Why do I keep talking when I'm out and about? It's rather simple really. I feel obligated.

I felt that obligation too about masks, and trying to explain why they work, and why they are needed. I would have felt guilty if I hadn't put out the effort. (I mean on this forum)

But that obligation has been met. If you want to keep trying (on this thread) that's up to you.

It's kind of funny. You and I are two of the best salesmen on the planet. And we can't sell a 50 cent mask.

Added a minute later; My wife's brother-in-law died a couple of days ago from Covid. My wife's sister's ex-husband died a week ago from Covid. My wife's brother nearly died from it.

Anyway, I hope everyone stays healthy.

[1Bryan]

Originally Posted by tagiscom

I think that l know the answer to that question.

Sweden is horrible, l hate Sweden, Satan lives in Sweden, bad, bad Sweden.

Gene splicing vaccines are good, and wholesome, and protects your grandparents, (ignore the flu parallels) and you will go to heaven if you get jabbed, (l won't say it).

And what people don't put into context about Sweden is ...

4800+ of their deaths are in the age brackets 80-89 and 90 and older.

Another 1400+ are age bracket 70-79.

(Life expectancy in Sweden is around 82)

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...by-age-groups/

I think some people, whether they admit it or not, have an underlying belief that people should never die. They have never confronted the reality of death ... for realsies.

I think that's actually part of it. I could be wrong. But it seems that way.

[Kay King]

Claude and Ken -

You are not 'selling masks' - you are selling fear...you are selling your opinion of an issue that has generated massive responses that range from 'sky is falling' to 'no biggie'.

All you know is what is right for YOU - and perhaps for your own immediate family. There is no point to nor reward for a crusade to convince other people that you know what is best for them.
----
I skipped a party this weekend that I was really looking forward to. But the bonfire outdoor party was moved to an indoor restaurant due to weather...and I stayed home. Some of those people do not believe covid is a threat - while others believe it's 'fate' - but that's OK. THEY do what is right for them based on what they believe - and I do what's right for me.

Not one of them would criticize me for not showing up at the party - nor would I critique them for attending. We may not agree on the risk involved - but instead of arguing it, we respect the right of others to have their own opinion.

You can find an 'expert' or 'facts' to support any opinion if you search diligently....but so what? Trying to prove 'I'm right" too often on a forum comes across as "I'm smarter than you" - and that doesn't go over well. A book I read last week had a line that stuck in my brain: 'novices built the ark - engineers built the Titanic'..


And my favorite: If I think I'm the smartest person in the room, I'm probably in the wrong room....

We can keep this thread open if we simply respect the right of others to disagree with our opinion - to have their own viewpoint. Insults won't be tolerated. There are so many topics related to this pandemic - from how we work to what we eat...and the viewpoints of members in various countries is fascinating.

If you are only posting links to prove you are 'right' - or can't post without telling other members they are idiots....please don't post.

[kenmichaels]

Originally Posted by Kay King

Claude and Ken -

You are not 'selling masks' - you are selling fear...

I'm not selling anything. I'm trying to educate my neighbors that covid is real. Most of them don't even realize that the big historical looking building blocking the view of the river is actually a 300 + bed assisted living facility that's blended with long term care and hospice. They also don't know that people in the neighborhood are actually dying, or that our area hospitals are at capacity. As far as here, I actually have friends that I care about here, so I'm going to keep talking when I think it's appropriate, even though I think it's clear that some want me to stop.

Edit: I think anyone who thinks covid is fake is being misled or is plain nuts, and because of that I will help in any way that I can.

[socialentry]

Originally Posted by Kay King

There are so many topics related to this pandemic - from how we work to what we eat...and the viewpoints of members in various countries is fascinating.

I ate a ham sandwich for supper.

[tagiscom]

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

And what people don't put into context about Sweden is ...

4800+ of their deaths are in the age brackets 80-89 and 90 and older.

Another 1400+ are age bracket 70-79.

(Life expectancy in Sweden is around 82)

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...by-age-groups/

I think some people, whether they admit it or not, have an underlying belief that people should never die. They have never confronted the reality of death ... for realsies.

I think that's actually part of it. I could be wrong. But it seems that way.

History repeats itself over and over, DDT was natural and a wonder drug to get rid of pest insects, and was sprayed up city streets, which the children played in the mist.

Radium same deal and was used widely in hospitals to mainly cure burns and heal wounds quickly.

I won't mention the other wonder drug developed in the 50's, that was deemed to be safe.


Some just want to believe in the medical body and believe that their doctors have All of the answers, and since we have ipads now, and PS5's that it cannot happen again.


I can understand that stance, "Medical technology is for our benefit" and "Mass Media is never wrong" which seems reasonable.

As we have demonstrated this isn't the case, and as others have shown they won't accept any evidence, at least ours.

Which means if a prominent doctor tells them Sweden was a failure then it is, and the new vaccine should be taken, to protect others then it will. This also covers other areas, where blind faith and forgetting about the failures is a given.

And what you said, previously apparently no one in the US is dying of anything other than Covid, or no heart attacks, or cancer victims anymore.

[savidge4]

Mathematical arguments as it relates Covid are pointless at this point. Read the front of this thread... the "Flu" is more deadly than Covid... with time.. that has proven FALSE. I would suggest that comparing October 2020 to May 2021 ( flu season ) the separation will be 5 to 10x - and this is comparing apples to apples vs apples to oranges trying to compare the onset of this vs other any previous year Flu numbers.

The issue here is NOT Covid, nor its validity. The issue at play would be the deep seated distain of authority. NO ONE likes to be told what to do. And with that comes the justification to the opposite of what you are being told to do.

Another issue that has reared its head in this is the general disdain for "Change". "But they said in April NOT to wear a mask" and that is in fact a true statement. A statement that was more in line with Supply and Demand at the time vs what science ( air-born disease ) was telling them.

The reality is the entire scenario was one big unknown... and even now... there is a lot to learn. We are F A R from out of the woods here. The Covid Vaccine is going to be effective for 4 months or so... and then you would have to take another one. and another and another and another.

I could argue that the last 11 12 13 months have been the first wave of this monster. We will have the vaccine and things will loosen up and guess what will happen? The second wave. We have already watched this play out in AU, in parts of Europe, and in many individual States ( CA NY NJ as examples )

You will no longer and for a good amount of time now ( with the exception of those that work for me ) piss and moan about mask wearing. I could give 2 rats what YOU do... but I personally wear a mask when out in public.

Really look at this thread... both sides of the discussion... sound like a bunch of KARENS. The reality is Actions speak louder than words all day long... and physical real life actions within a text based forum are useless. This being said, I wear a mask and I mandate that those that I have control over that are around me and that I am held accountable and liable for wear one as well.

An interesting side story to all of this. I operate my business with an amount of environmental awareness. ( without being told by my govt to do so ) and one of the things that is currently biting me in the tail end is the use of hydronic radiant heating in a good portion of my facilities. What this translates to is I have no moving air within my facilities during the colder months ( no fan that blows warm air to heat my buildings )

I am currently negating any and all energy savings with the use of my water heated floors and having to run the AC set at a matching temperature to circulate air. So for the first time in about 18 months aside from the minimum charge to be hooked to the grid I actually had an "Electric Bill" this month.

At this point there may be more value in discussing what and how the Covid experience has changed things or brought some light to things that should be looked at. Based on my own personal text above... Human behavior has been a real interesting watch. Lower fossil fuel usage ( gas in particular ) due to a great majority staying home to work, has been interesting. Mass transit systems across the globe flailing miserably due to lack of ridership has been interesting.

decentralization of internet usage from office complexes where the needed band width was directed to needing a more saturated even flow of bandwidth because people were remote working has been interesting to watch. The increase in energy usage at home vs at places of business has been interesting - A business energy account may "use" more energy but pays less per Kwh vs "home" use. Energy companies are seeing increases in revenue as an example.

The whole discussion of transportation or more specifically mass transportation has many facets of interest. Places like Hawaii as an example, implementing campaigns to entice working / tax paying individuals to "work from home" in Hawaii - I find this to be pretty clever.

Covid is what it is... its a big fat unknown, and all WE can do is control the controllable. All we can do is look back / at the experience and learn from it.

[Mark Singletary]

I had a random thought the other day. I wonder, if the fact my glasses fog up when I have to wear them (reading, using the phone or computer) while wearing a mask means if I was infected those droplets or whatever would escape too.

Mark

[kenmichaels]

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

I had a random thought the other day. I wonder, if the fact my glasses fog up when I have to wear them (reading, using the phone or computer) while wearing a mask means if I was infected those droplets or whatever would escape too.

Mark

The answer is right before your eyes.


In case that wasn't clear, I think that answer is " of course it is"
But it's minimal, and it's not traveling as far.

[savidge4]

Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty

Someone is lying.

You are interjecting thought and studies and this and that into this.. you simply have to look at the numbers:

Flu: CDC estimates that the burden of illness during the 2018–2019 season included an estimated 35.5 million people getting sick with influenza, 16.5 million people going to a health care provider for their illness, 490,600 hospitalizations, and 34,200 deaths from influenza

Covid: In the USA there has been 15 million cases and 284,000 deaths at this point. The 15 million we know to be the number of people that have been tested aka "people going to a health care provider for their illness". As of today alone there are 100,000+ hospitalizations. This is NOT a rolling count, this is who is in the hospital TODAY.

So what we know and dont know... I have yet to see a number that estimates the number of Americans that were sick with Covid ( like they do with the flu) we are at this point even with or on par with the 15 million known cases to equal a flu season. The number of Hospitalized ( cant find a running total number on this ) there is simply no comparison, and the overall deaths... and honestly we could assume the number is HALF ( 142,000 ) again there is no comparison NONE. Covid is flat out no questions asked dont let the door hit you on the way out 5x more deadly - and that is halfing the official death by covid number.

You can say studies this and scientist that all day long... like I said mathematical arguments at this point are MUTE. There is NO QUESTION that the numbers with this are incorrect. BUT you really have to think for a moment about how they would be adjusted... the answer is the OPPOSITE of what you are suggesting... They are NOT expanded, they are SHRUNK. Case and point look at the Florida thing going on where the whistle blower saying she got fired for not reducing numbers. I know for FACT my States numbers are incorrect to the low side.

But none of this matters... There is one number and one number only to look at, and that is the death rate. I agree the number is fudged... I get the whole but the person had cancer argument. So reduce the number in half... and its still not pretty. Again.. just the numbers and the numbers alone - and there is cause for concern.

Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty

If masks worked then you would have seen the results of them working. What you see is the complete opposite.

So let me throw a wrench in this for you... if what you are saying is true.. masks do not work.. why are there still doctors and nurses and aides working in hospitals? I know more than my fair share of Doctors. I know more than my fair share of nurses. and by enlarge the group with the LEAST amount of Covid... these people happen to fit into that category. remember Dr. Li Wenliang? how did he die? Yes Covid... and do your own research... but he was directed as punishment to work without a mask...

Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty

How was it unknown?

I think you made the argument very clear... the issue is not WHAT it is, but how to deal with it. Moderna had a vaccine formulated 2 days after China released the virus's genetic data ( January 11th the data was released and January 13th Moderna had the vaccine formulated - for those watching at home ) THAT was the easy part...

But then what? what happens until such a medication is brought to market? Your suggesting every man for themselves.. and I agree. But your thought process is not considering that the safety of those less capable of dealing with this. Stay home, dont go out, stay out of the way for the rest of us. How F'ing selfish is that?

So data / science suggest 3 things; #1 not wearing a mask is maximum vulnerability. #2 You alone wearing a mask around people not wearing a mask sits in about 30% protection ( and I will assume this number is elevated ) and then #3 both parties are wearing masks and protection jumps into the 70%+ category.

ALL of this is presuming that all are wearing KN95 masks at a minimum. read that last sentence again.. and again. Now walk outside and see what people are wearing for masks... the percentages provided above are thrown out the door... Neoprene or a bandana or a home made model or a face shield no mask do not fit the requirements to get to the numbers above.

But this then becomes a Supply and Demand issue. KN95 masks needed in the United States on a daily basis far exceed the ability to produce that number of masks. The level of protection - making a mask last a week a month or a new one everyday becomes a social economic issue. I can afford to hand out a new mask on a daily basis to those that work for me. An organization of about 75 people in total right now. Option #2 at a minimum is better than option #1 all day long - and all of this being a realist and understanding option #3 is simply not an option.

Keep in mind you are referring to data that includes the subset of masks that are useless. Wearing a piece of cloth on your face is proven to be in some cases more harmful... and re read that.. I am agreeing with you... BUT there is the subset of masks KN95 or better that are beneficial. and again I mention supply and demand here... there simply is not enough KN95 or greater mask available for everyone... and it is left to those that can afford them, and that becomes a social economic gap.

Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty

Speak for yourself.

I have, and you have... "Choice" is god given... choice is human nature - how ever you are willing to accept that. I can not make choices for YOU... but I can make some amount of choices #1 for myself, #2 for my family, and #3 those that I am charged with the financial responsibility and liability.

Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty

Protect the vulnerable and let the rest of us get on with it. It seems like such an obvious thing to do, and yet not one of your scientists and doctors can get that simple part right. It's almost like they don't know what they are doing, isn't it?

protect the vulnerable you say, and I agree... but what does that look like for you? they stay locked up and separated? in other words out with the bathwater right? again how F'ing selfish is that? Some guy that is over 50 and has high blood pressure ( that would be me ) has every right to goto the grocery store as some 20 something no? and should be able to do it with an amount of safety no? I wear a mask... I am in the high risk portion of this. Is YOUR right to carry on more valuable than MY right to carry on?

So lets go a step further with this... SCIENCE dictates KN95 or better masks work.. so should it be that people with KN95 or better be allowed out? the answer to some degree is yes to this... but the reality is again supply and demand along with social economic barriers this will not be a reality.

Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty

Covid is respiratory disease just like the flu. It is not unknown. The only people telling you that are the ones who have done absolutely nothing that works. The perfect excuse.

I am hoping this post points out that its NOT the actual disease that is the mystery / unknown... its how to deal with it at scale in a world that is far from prepared to do so. Herd immunity and letting the chips fall where they will and sending a 1/3 of the American population that fall into the "higher risk" category to cower in their homes for personal protection is far from a winner winner chicken dinner idea.

There is a line between "Rights" and "Respect" and maybe if there was a bit more "Respect" regardless of what any govt may mandate there would not be such an issue.