[savidge4]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

And once the virus mutates enough, the fact that we already had it won't mean anything. Just like having the flu doesn't keep you from getting it later as the flu virus mutates.

Im not going to stand as firmly as I might for this as I might other aspects of this discussion... but as much as the science community is saying "Watch out" the actual numbers just are not there.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/on...rt-11613743994

like 60 known cases in a years time... and we keep reading about the 3 month ( 90 day window ) 1 year 60 people ( WORLDWIDE ) and you are susceptible to getting it again after 90 days... the numbers just dont jive.

When I am in public I use a neoprene mask. I do my very best to keep all close proximity meetings to less than 15 minutes and if they are going to be longer, I like to move the meeting outdoors ( and I take off my mask )

In contrast to that... as a "Hobby" I do some woodworking. last night as an example I spent 2 hours with a orbital sander and a piece I am working on. I have retarded dusk collection. I have retarded air filtration. I wear a mask that is oh 1000 times better than the one that I wear to protect myself from Covid... and after the 2 hour sanding session... I had the taste of sawdust in my mouth.

So its not my words.. read this ( https://pksafety.com/blog/respirator...s-n95-vs-p100/ ) my P100 mask I wear for woodworking is rated at 99.8% and a N-95 mask is rated at 95%... and even at 99.8% I still have the taste of sawdust in my mouth. I know, not very comforting - sorry. BUT you have to remember.. DURATION is a very key element in all of this... 2 hours and I am tasting sawdust vs me doing everything I can to avoid close enclosed contact of anything more than 15 minutes.

And to make this point even clearer, here is a link to the mask I use for sanding ( https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-...4780254&rt=rud ) FITMENT is not the issue... unlike an N-95 mask. ( and PLEASE dont judge the price its for a case of 4 - and you can buy these for less than the single suggested price )

When you start looking at why its worse here and not there... and these people are not wearing a mask and these are... the CORE data says 15 minutes of exposure is what it takes... If you are outdoors say in Florida doing your thing.. it is obviously well ventilated there is simply no reason for a mask... and the numbers show it.. you go other places that are still locked up, and the numbers are getting worse.. its because they are confining in small spaces - and being social and maybe eating or whatever with the mask off.

Common sense went out the door a long time ago with this... I never wore the P100 out in public.. i did for a time wear the N-95 pretty religiously... but then referenced that usage to tasting sawdust from a far superior mask... I will never get the N-95 to fit as tightly as my P100... I have actually tried sanding with a N-95.. and its good for maybe 15 minutes, and cakes up and gets really hard to breath in and I taste sawdust. Again, I know, not very comforting - sorry.

[savidge4]

Originally Posted by DWolfe

Actually read it is 85% . https://www.linkedin.com/news/story/...-wall-5414026/ It's a interesting article the supply may pass the demand in the next few weeks.

Been trying to get schedule at Walgreens or CVS by me. Still have to wait scheduled dates and locations are not widely available.

Depends on where you look right? ( https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/24/h...ronavirus.html ) 60 to 70% is the number from WHO.

You need to drive to WV... you can pretty much walk into most Walgreens where i live and get a vaccine anytime.

[Kay King]

Same here - you can do a drive through covid test with no waiting in line at CVS...get an appt at kroger for tomorrow to get vaccine...and when you get there, you go right in.



There is no reason for any state NOT to have a good vaccination plan in operation now...but it seems some are more efficient than others.

[Claude Whitacre]

Something that has been bothering me about the concept of "Herd immunity".

I keep reading that if 75% (or some similar fraction) of the population is vaccinated or gets the virus, this will create a sort of wall that stops the spread.

But that's not how spreading viruses work.

Take any city. Now cut the population by 75%. What do you have now? Simply a smaller city. A smaller concentration of people.

But the 75% that you took out? That doesn't stop the people still there from getting and spreading the virus.

If you are in a gathering of 100 people, and 75 of them no longer can get the virus, that doesn't even slow down the other 25 people from getting the virus and getting sick from it.

In other words, people that are already vaccinated or already had the virus, aren't creating a wall that keeps the virus from spreading. they are just now working as people who aren't there to carry the virus. To the virus, it would be like they are furniture, or some other non-host.


The only way herd immunity would be really effective is if there is a group, and only one person in the group can still get the virus. Or there are more than one, and they never get close to each other.

There are states in the mid west (of the US) that have far smaller concentrations of people, and the virus still spreads rapidly.

I've tried to find a flaw in my reasoning, and haven't found it yet. But I'm perfectly happy being wrong.

From what I see, we are not slowing the virus because of herd immunity, but because there are simply fewer people now who can get it.

If half the adults have already been vaccinated, and the daily cases go down by half, the rate of infection is still the same for the remaining people.

[kenmichaels]

Finally managed to get vaccinated.

Meanwhile, Claude, if you remember a while back we were discussing how the USA death count might be off. These reports say it's double.

"Pretty much we're seeing an undercount everywhere," Christopher Murray, IHME director, said during a press briefing. Almost every country has significantly underreported its deaths, according to the analysis.

The analysis found that the U.S. still has the highest death toll of any country. But instead of the country's official toll of nearly 580,000 lives lost, it is actually over 900,000, according to the analysis. That number would put the U.S. well over the death toll from the 1918 flu pandemic, which was estimated to be about 675,00 lives.

If this is true, and I assume it is, I wonder if it will changes anyone's opinion on things.

[Kay King]

The entire 'analysis' is based on estimation - a fantastic study for math folks and scientists perhaps - but I would not replace a count with an estimate.



Interesting reading, though.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

Finally managed to get vaccinated.

Meanwhile, Claude, if you remember a while back we were discussing how the USA death count might be off. These reports say it's double.



If this is true, and I assume it is, I wonder if it will changes anyone's opinion on things.

That new method is based on measuring the excess deaths per population, increased over the deaths of the last several years.

It can tell us how many people are dying more than usual. But it isn't an actual record of deaths from Covid.

Here is the first thing that jumps out at me.

Everyone dies. The Covid cases are just people that die sooner. And most of these fatalities are people that are already aged, and often sick.

If the fatalities were even across the population, it would be a better method to measure death rates outside the norm.

Using this method, we will see a bell curve of excess deaths...and then eventually a reversal of that trend, because a portion of the elderly and sick have already died earlier than normal. It will appear as though the death rates are below normal....maybe some will even believe that the vaccines extended life, or some other rationale.

A related example. Last year only a thousand deaths were attributed to the flu. That's from a normal year of maybe 30,000 deaths from the flu.

Why the huge change? A few things.
With most people wearing masks, traveling less, washing hands more, and social distancing, less people get Covid. But also less people get the flu.

And.....many people easily get the flu (and suffer more serious symptoms) because of a compromised immune system, or because they are in occupations with close quarters. These are the same conditions that increase Covid cases.

So, many people who would have died from the flu, got Covid and died from that instead.

Last year 550,000 people died from Covid in the US.

I strongly suspect that most of the 30,000 that usually die from the flu each year were also in the Covid group. They just got Covid first, or died from it first, as it's more deadly.

This is based on my own reasoning, and not something I've read from a credible source.

[Kay King]

We're on third down and done today.


I had my big 3 day reaction to the second shot a couple weeks ago...my son had same extreme reaction but for only about 36 hrs...my d-in-law got her second shot yesterday and she headed in to lay down a couple hours ago and is feeling rocky.


All three of us had Covid so maybe that's why the strong side effects...but it's limited time and then over so no real biggie.

[Mark Singletary]

Well, Taiwan is getting its turn.

It started with airline crews. While every other visitor to Taiwan has to go through a 14-day strict monitored quarantine, airline crews only have a 3 day quarantine and then 11 days self monitoring. A quarantine hotel decided to put some of them in the same building as regular folks and thus began the downfall.

Then, a club president with tons of friends, spent a little time in the red light district getting tea and "favors."

Yada Yada Yada, they went from no local cases for months to a steady flow of about 400 a day and growing. No deaths in months to a steady daily flow. And people are dying fast. I mean they get a cough and are dead by the next day in many cases. I'm not sure if that happened elsewhere or if it was more drawn out.

It's all relative. It's not 100,000 cases a day, it's currently about 400. The way people are crowded in here, though, could make it get very serious very quickly. 1/3 the size of Florida with the same population.

More bad news is mainland China has blocked them from getting the Pfizer vaccine. The first shipment of Moderna came yesterday but it's only 150,000 doses. Need 46+ million to get everyone a shot. AstraZeneca has been available but without a caseload no one was interested. Now they are and can't get anything.

The good news is from what I see, people are being mostly compliant with mask wearing and following the rules. We are at level 3 out of 4 levels. No eating in, no unnecessary business, many people working from home, medical appointments cancelled for routine stuff, etc. Typical lockdown. Level 4 sounds like prison though.

They fine people up to $500 US for not wearing a mask outside and the police actively are approaching violators.

Most businesses you go to, you have to either sign in with your name, time, temperature, and contact info or use a QR code and send a text message through your phone to the CDC.

Did they have that kind of tracing in the US?

Anyway, the point is stay diligent.

This should be the new Taiwan CDC guidance:

*Stay at home*
*Wash your hands*
*Wear a mask*
*Don't touch your face*
*Social distance*
*Keep it in your pants* I hope the "favors" were worth bringing an entire nation to its knees and killing people every day of the week.

Mark

[pearlie]

I really like how many good online services appeared during the pandemic. For example, good online pharmacies are really important for people these days, and they help a lot. We have been using those too to get some BirthControl and other helpful and healthy stuff online. I am pretty sure that you would like such online services a lot as well. What do you think?

[Claude Whitacre]

Well Folks...

In the US, about 60% of adults have had at least one vaccine shot. If you add in the number of people who already had Covid, and survived, we may be at 70% as a country.

And almost all the country is treating this as back to normal. No more mask mandates. No more closed events.

But that still means that 30% of adults haven't had Covid or the vaccine. That's more than one hundred million people. Way more than enough to keep a pandemic going, even if it's at a reduced rate. We'll see.

One thing to notice is that Colds and Flu is back. No masks means cold and flu get transmitted just like always. This is a global threat. Some countries have less than 1% vaccinated.

Anyway, we are still at a 7 day running average of 341 daily deaths from Covid. Last week the new cases went from 11,000 to 14,000.

I remember at the beginning of this, that these numbers were causing people to stay indoors and panic.

I guess it's what we get used to,.

Something to consider. as of now, the people in the hospital that are currently being treated for Covid have one thing in common. As do all the people who are now dying from this virus ....

Of the number of hospitalized and dead (now), almost zero are people that have been vaccinated. Vaccinated people can still get it, they just don't need to be hospitalized. Just a thought.

[Angela V. Edwards]

This is something I've been saying about the masks for some time. I need to add that it really irks me when people make fun of others for "wearing a mask in their car while they're alone". This is what I had to say. LOL

Apparently, you know nothing at all about contagious diseases and how to protect yourself. If Covid was a real "outbreak horror" (like in the movies) situation, we'd all be dead.




IF YOU TOUCH YOUR MASK AT ANY TIME WHEN YOU'RE OUT AND THEN TOUCH ANYTHING ELSE AT ALL YOU'RE SPREADING ANY GERMS YOUR MASK MAY HAVE CAUGHT FAR AND WIDE.

I've been saying the following about those masks for a while. I even sent an email to the CDC whose response to me was to send me an email on how to use the mask correctly!! You can't make this stuff up. I managed Jack in the Box in the Pacific Northwest in 1993 when the e. coli 0157:H7 crisis happened here. I know sanitation. Their "response" was offensive to me. And yet~the CDC website tells you to sanitize or wash your hands if you touch your mask. But they're not making sure the Public knows that.


Reporters and others just love making noise about those masks but even if they are a good idea for Covid, they don't work and they won't work as long as everyone continues to use them incorrectly. I find it really curious that the CDC and others have not taken even one second to let the public know that on-off-on-off-on-off and pulling the mask down and putting it into your pocket and whatever is getting the germs you are attempting to prevent onto your hands and from there onto your face and everywhere else. Even Dr. Fauci used his mask incorrectly.He had his mask pulled down while he was at that game!!


My husband is pretty healthy right now but he has some of the health "comorbidities" that they say put the person at serious risk so when I go out, I do the mask correctly. I put it on before I leave the house and I do not touch it until I get home and can take it off, deposit it into the washer, and wash my hands. Because I have long curly hair, I spray my hair with my hairspray that has Denatured Alcohol as its first ingredient. If the masks do prevent Covid, we probably won't be getting it. But most people will not be immune and the masks are doing nothing at all for them the way they're using them. For people who work all day, wearing the mask correctly turns into a real problem as they cannot eat, drink, or smoke while wearing the mask if it's done right. They'd have to have several masks and put a new one on after eating or drinking.


(edit - political comment)

[Angela V. Edwards]

P.S. They are going to have to figure out why some relatively young, perfectly healthy people are passing away after getting the vaccine for me to be comfortable about being vaccinated.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

IF YOU TOUCH YOUR MASK AT ANY TIME WHEN YOU'RE OUT AND THEN TOUCH ANYTHING ELSE AT ALL YOU'RE SPREADING ANY GERMS YOUR MASK MAY HAVE CAUGHT FAR AND WIDE.

Covid isn't a germ. It's a virus.

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

P.S. They are going to have to figure out why some relatively young, perfectly healthy people are passing away after getting the vaccine for me to be comfortable about being vaccinated.

The vaccine doesn't stop you from getting the Covid virus. It stops you from getting very ill from the Covid virus. The vaccine doesn't stop you from dying. It stops you from dying from Covid, after you contract Covid.

It doesn't stop you from dying from every other possible cause of death. If you got the vaccine and then drown a week later. the vaccine didn't cause you to drown. Also, vaccines don't stop you from dying of cancer, other diseases, other types of infections. The Covid vaccines just stop you from dying from a Covid viral infection.

Vaccines don't make you invulnerable. They don't cure other ailments you have.

If you do a Google search about people dying after they get vaccinated, you'll find plenty of articles fact checking and explaining this myth.

[Mark Singletary]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

P.S. They are going to have to figure out why some relatively young, perfectly healthy people are passing away after getting the vaccine for me to be comfortable about being vaccinated.

Maybe it was the aspirin. Did you know that 15 out of 100,000 people take aspirin and die? Should we quit taking them? Or is that really saving some of my kin folks from a heart attack which will likely kill them too?

I'm not antivax but generally accept them when needed. For example, I'm an expat and before traveling received several vaccine boosters but I've never gotten a flu shot.

In Taiwan, they recently have ramped up the vaccines and all the sudden 48 older people died right after taking the first AZ shot. Authorities say it's not related but to me it's suspicious.

On the other hand, my BIL who is antivax is in ICU in serious trouble from COVID.

I think people need to look at it themselves and make a decision without propaganda. It's true that the vaccines seem to be saving lives but it's also true we've got 6 months of experience with them and don't know what happens the 3rd year or whenever. It's also true that some people seem to be having a reaction to the shots but again it could be the aspirin (or whatever) and not the shots.

If the vaccines don't kill you COVID might. Or maybe it will be cancer or some maniac driving crazy. Life is a gamble. And it will end for all of us someday. The goal should be to make it to the end as happy and healthy as you can. For me, that probably involves getting the shot when it's available. But to each their own.

Mark

[Angela V. Edwards]

All of this back-and-forth reminds me of the same sort of back-and-forth that goes on with people who do and people who do not believe childhood vaccines cause autism. I don't necessarily believe they do; however no one knows what does cause autism and cases of autism appear to be at a historic all-time high. Instead of people pitching crap at the anti vaccers (which I am not), perhaps we should put more effort into figuring out what is causing autism. It has to be something. Things like that don't just come from nothing.

Covid isn't a germ. It's a virus.

P.S. "Germ" or "Virus" does not change my point one iota. That's just splitting hairs for absolutely no reason except that you don't like that I do not want to get the vaccine. If you are out and about and the mask captures the VIRUS and then you pull the mask off, touch it and put it in your pocket or purse or car or whatever and touch it again and again and again and touch your face and everything else you are near, you're spreading the pathogens that cause Covid far and wide and the mask does absolutely no good and that is exactly how most people are using the mask. The CDC’s own website says to wash or sanitize your hands if you touch your mask, but nobody is doing that and none of the powers-that-be have informed the public about it.


If you are vaccinated, why would it matter what other people do? I’m a freedom loving patriot and the thing I love the most about the US is that people are free to make their own choices for their own lives. I’m also a very Conservative Christian but I value freedom so much that I would never try to interfere with someone else’s life choices, even if those choices are things I do not believe in. Each person gets to make his or her own choices about their life and I will always respect those choices.

[Angela V. Edwards]

Just one more P.S. If all the lockdown rules were put into place to keep us safe and prevent us dying in a pandemic, how is it that more than one Governor violated their own rules with abandon as if they weren’t a bit afraid of contracting Covid? I’m seeing quite a few “control” issues stemming from this whole Covid brouhaha.

[Princess Balestra]

Worst thing 'bout masks?

Havin' to smear lipstick ovah your whole face so's your lips don't look all smooshied when you take the mask off.

The Just Ate a Live Rat look is prolly why most gals hate masks so much.

Makes the Death By Static Electricity prahblem guys with beards gaht seem to Moi to be no kinda grievance by comparison.

Yeah but full face Scarlet Luster has its drawbacks.

As a confirmed Zucchini For Health aficionado, I make regulah store runs to top up on essentials, an' it is rare I make it too far now without attractin' comment.

"Hey, lady — did you set fire to your face in the night?"

"Is this a free tomato promotion? If so, I'll take 7 big ones, please."

"Next time they're painting the fire trucks, why not consider GETTING OUT OF THE WAY?"

"Have the Flesh Eaters finally made it through my defenses? Waugh! Waugh! Waugh!"

etc

Natchrlly, I keep smilin' (even though it don't make no sense).

Mom says I bein' kinda stoopid.

Last phone home, she said, "darling, given the amount of gin you routinely consume, I'm surprised the Covid community hasn't isued a global warning about the danger you pose to viruskind."

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

If you are vaccinated, why would it matter what other people do? I’m a freedom loving patriot and the thing I love the most about the US is that people are free to make their own choices for their own lives. I’m also a very Conservative Christian but I value freedom so much that I would never try to interfere with someone else’s life choices, even if those choices are things I do not believe in.

I agree with you. If my wife and I have the vaccine, why do we care if anyone else has the vaccine...or gets Covid...or gets sick...or dies?

A valid point.

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

P.S. "Germ" or "Virus" does not change my point one iota. That's just splitting hairs for absolutely no reason except that you don't like that I do not want to get the vaccine. .

That's not true. Whether you got vaccinated or not never occurred to me.

PS. Remember, we have already agreed that we don't care what other people do, or how it affects anyone else.


PS OK, I'm done joking. I'm truly glad you wore a mask. I hope everyone in your family did, when they (or you) went inside a building with other people. I hope nobody in your family gets Covid, and gets sick.

I hope you reconsider getting the vaccine. Autism isn't linked to the vaccine at all. That's a myth propagated by extremists. Again, just do a Google search and you'll see that it's a very debunked claim. Just like the idea that people are dying from the vaccine. Another myth, easily vanquished by a few minutes of fact checking online.

[Kay King]

If you are vaccinated, why would it matter what other people do?

It doesn't matter - and I don't understand what seems to be anger in your posts (I may be misinterpreting which can happen on a forum). If you read over previous recent posts you will see several here saying 'do what you want to do' and saying each person can choose his own path. We're also saying some of us are no longer wearing masks because we have been vaccinated.

The 'back and forth' as you call it has been going on for over a year on this forum...in this thread.

P.S. They are going to have to figure out why some relatively young, perfectly healthy people are passing away after getting the vaccine for me to be comfortable about being vaccinated.

Except the social media firestorm of 'young healthy people dying after vaccine' was an incorrect story posted on Instagram that was picked up and repeated ....without anyone apparently checking the FACTS.

Three people died after getting a shot - this was three people out of millions of shots given but the deaths have not yet been linked to the vaccine. How many in those millions would have died of covid without the vaccine?

A handful of young people developed a heart 'issue' but the percentage that developed this who had been vaccinated is the SAME percentage as those who developed it before the vaccine. It is apparently a common health issue.

The Instagram - FB and Twitter and some media - reports of deaths of young people were based on an incorrect interpretation of a CDC report....the LACK OF DEATHS IN YOUNG PEOPLE AFTER THE VACCINE has been featured in many medical/CDC/reports.

We would love to have certainty - that a mask would protect us (various studies show that may have been overrated) - that a vaccine is 100% safe - that if we do everything 'right' - we'll all be fine. Life doesn't work that way. We do what we can and hope for the best.



If you look at the 'numbers' (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ ) the US has pretty much beaten covid....the pandemic is over (in the US). It was the rapid development of the vaccine that changed the trajectory of this virus...and that response from our scientific community is something we should be proud of in my opinion.


It will take quite some time for us - as a community - to get over the fear we've lived with for the past year. The same is true of trust for the vaccines though I think as more and more people have no problems with the vaccinations that issue will eventually solve itself.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

All of this back-and-forth reminds me of the same sort of back-and-forth that goes on with people who do and people who do not believe childhood vaccines cause autism.

Autism is a genetic disorder. Vaccines don't change your genes.

People are born autistic, in the same way they are born with dwarfism, albinism, or a host of other genetic anomalies.

You are either born autistic, or born without autism. Again, a quick Google search will confirm that fact. A few seconds on your part, fact checking, will answer that question forever.

And nobody gets childhood vaccines before they are born. So it is impossible for childhood vaccines to cause autism...or any other genetic condition.

[DWolfe]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

If you are vaccinated, why would it matter what other people do? .

If a Family Member is in a nursing home. I would not want some one not vaccinated tending to that member. Large Majority of these workers refuse to be vaccinate.

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

Just one more P.S. If all the lockdown rules were put into place to keep us safe and prevent us dying in a pandemic, how is it that more than one Governor,......

This is really against forum rules. Because it goes into to Political discussions that are not allowed here. Multiple posts have been deleted already. A few members have been temporarily band for awhile.

[Angela V. Edwards]

First, you do realize that the chance of young people passing away from Covid is very small, right? Many young people who might test positive for Covid, like my husband’s daughter, show absolutely zero symptoms. None.(NO political references/names) We have no idea how many asymptomatic young people were positive for Covid but were not tested. That number could be pretty high and could contribute to the herd immunity that comes about with viruses like this.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/investigations-discovery/hospitalization-death-by-age.html

Second, when seemingly healthy young people get sick and die shortly after the vaccine, it gives the rest of us pause, regardless of how many others did not get sick. And they’ve admitted that they can’t determine with an autopsy whether the vaccine caused the death. I would imagine it’s not the aspirin (as someone above mentioned) because I would think a healthy 39 year old woman who works in health care would know if she had issues with aspirin.

Dr. Erik Christensen, Utah's chief Medical Examiner, said proving vaccine injury as a cause of death almost never happens.“Did the vaccine cause this? I think that would be very hard to demonstrate in autopsy," he said.

Christensen can think of only one instance where you would see a vaccine as the cause of death on an official autopsy report, and that would be in an immediate case of anaphylaxis — one where a person received the vaccine and died almost instantaneously, he said.

“Short of that, it would be difficult for us to definitively say this is the vaccine.”

A more likely result would be a lack of answers or an “incomplete autopsy.”

https://kutv.com/news/local/utah-wom...utopsy-ordered

It’s quite telling that after admitting that an autopsy probably can’t show whether the death came from the vaccine, they are now saying that Kassidi Kurril’s death supposedly wasn’t from the vaccine but they can’t tell us why she died due to “privacy laws”. Riiiiiiight. If you choose to fall for BS like this, I won’t try to stop you. But I don’t have to. While it’s true that millions of people are getting the vaccine with no issues, there are still some cases like this that are very frightening to the rest of us. We “probably won’t” die after getting the vaccine but it could happen and has happened with a few people? This is my life we’re talking about here. “Probably won’t” die aren’t very good odds. At 55 years old, I’ve always been super healthy and never get sick, including contracting Covid. I inherited that from my grandmother who also was always healthy and lived to her mid 90s. I honestly don’t see the vaccine benefit to me.

[Odahh]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

It’s quite telling that after admitting that an autopsy probably can’t show whether the death came from the vaccine, they are now saying that Kassidi Kurril’s death supposedly wasn’t from the vaccine but they can’t tell us why she died due to “privacy laws”. Riiiiiiight. If you choose to fall for BS like this, I won’t try to stop you. But I don’t have to. While it’s true that millions of people are getting the vaccine with no issues, there are still some cases like this that are very frightening to the rest of us. We “probably won’t” die after getting the vaccine but it could happen and has happened with a few people? This is my life we’re talking about here. “Probably won’t” die aren’t very good odds. At 55 years old, I’ve always been super healthy and never get sick, including contracting Covid. I inherited that from my grandmother who also was always healthy and lived to her mid 90s. I honestly don’t see the vaccine benefit to me.

fine do not get the vaccine ..there is no need to explain your choice on this forum .

choice do have consequences .. and if airlines decide not to let unvaccinated people get on planes ..or theaters require proof of vaccination attend movies ..or at least businesses who employee deal with the public require vaccination .. large event staff ..

you can take the risk..but i think the lawsuit protection my disappear ..so corporations may not be willing to face law suit that may result if an unvacinated employ spreads the virus

[Kay King]

The woman you mention died several days after her second vaccine and her family thought it might be related. After a full investigation that was found NOT to be the case - no 'supposedly' involved. She died of other causes, not due to the vaccine. What those 'other causes' were is not our business - that's why there are privacy laws.



Just saying - no one here will tel you to get vaccinated - it's your choice. No justification needed but when you offer 'incidents' as proof - make sure they are true.

when seemingly healthy young people get sick and die shortly after the vaccine

As pointed out above - that did not happen.

[Angela V. Edwards]

I pointed out already that the Medical Examiner already said that it was practically impossible to tell via an autopsy whether someone died from the vaccine. The only exception to that would be anaphylaxis which is an immediate allergic reaction.

Dr. Erik Christensen, Utah's chief Medical Examiner, said proving vaccine injury as a cause of death almost never happens.“Did the vaccine cause this? I think that would be very hard to demonstrate in autopsy," he said.

Christensen can think of only one instance where you would see a vaccine as the cause of death on an official autopsy report, and that would be in an immediate case of anaphylaxis — one where a person received the vaccine and died almost instantaneously, he said.

“Short of that, it would be difficult for us to definitively say this is the vaccine.”

A more likely result would be a lack of answers or an “incomplete autopsy.”

So they say that it's just about impossible to tell and then they come back with "but she didn't die from the vaccine but we can't tell you what she did die from". Sounds like crap talk to me.



Also, why would I have to go around proving that I got a medical procedure (the vaccine) when the United States has very strict HIPAA laws? So the laws only apply when we want them to apply and not in other cases?



I can see airlines and whatever possibly testing people for positive Covid results before allowing boarding as long as the results are kept confidential and a "positive" person given the information away from other people. But to require me to prove I was vaccinated? I don't think so.

[Angela V. Edwards]

I have to say I do appreciate the powers-that-be who made it possible to get the vaccine out so quickly. I think they did a fantastic job and I think it's probably extremely important for people with certain "comorbitities" to able to get that vaccine. But when something like the vaccine doesn't go through all the proper testing, negative things can happen. And this vaccine did not have the time to go through all the normal testing channels.


As it is, the Astrazeneca vaccine was pulled from many countries in Europe:

Amid probes, more nations suspend AstraZeneca COVID vaccine



Saying all of this, I think it's highly dangerous for the Medical Community or whoever to tell the public things like "nobody died from the vaccine" when they know they cannot actually tell. That's pure deceit. If those in authority over me tell me that it appears there may be a tiny risk but that most people do just fine, I'd be okay with that. I don't like lies and I don't like obvious omissions of truth.



I also like being allowed to exercise my freedoms to make my own personal choices for myself and my family.

[Odahh]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

I have to say I do appreciate the powers-that-be who made it possible to get the vaccine out so quickly. I think they did a fantastic job and I think it's probably extremely important for people with certain "comorbitities" to able to get that vaccine. But when something like the vaccine doesn't go through all the proper testing, negative things can happen. And this vaccine did not have the time to go through all the normal testing channels.

I also like being allowed to exercise my freedoms to make my own personal choices for myself and my family.

there was a large enough sample of people willing to get the vaccine to get the proper testing done in a short time ..and every lab in the world that could shifted to working on the vaccine ..in march and april and many where sharing notes ..

i thought the with the astrozenica vaccine being like 60 percent effective it was deamed really a waste to distribute it so the resources where put into the more effective vaccines that give high 90 percent protection ..

you have every right to make choices that effect your family ..and at this point it looks like there will be no hard power forcing people to get vaccinated ..

the businesses who face possible liability risk with unvaccinated people will make the choices to manage their risks and protect themselves

[Angela V. Edwards]

Originally Posted by Odahh

the businesses who face possible liability risk with unvaccinated people will make the choices to manage their risks and protect themselves

Don't forget, many young people can and often do test positive for Covid with zero symptoms. It's going to be quite difficult to hold a business "liable" for someone getting Covid if you can't prove who it was that exposed you to the virus. Someone could be in the business positive for Covid with symptoms while 15 other people are in the business positive for Covid without. How would one prove that it was that exact business and that exact person at that exact time who exposed them to the virus? We also have the situation where some people are contracting Covid after having the vaccination. Are those people contagious or are they not? I don't think a "liability lawsuit" would ever be successful right now.

[Angela V. Edwards]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Autism isn't linked to the vaccine at all. That's a myth propagated by extremists. Again, just do a Google search and you'll see that it's a very debunked claim.

I also don't necessarily believe vaccines cause autism and I am not an "anti vaxxer". I do have two problems with that whole thing, however:


1.) Anti Vax parents are treated horrifically by other people who swear at them and call them filthy names and whatever else. We know why they made those choices, perhaps we can be a bit nicer to them and give them a measure of grace, and


2.) They keep on saying that "vaccines don't cause autism" but something causes autism. It doesn't just come out of thin air for no reason. More people than ever before have autism. The rates are in the stratosphere now (and no, I don't believe for one second that they were always this high but no one ever recognized it before). So if something causes it, perhaps we should try to figure out what that "something" is.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

I also don't necessarily believe vaccines cause autism and I am not an "anti vaxxer". I do have two problems with that whole thing, however:


1.) Anti Vax parents are treated horrifically by other people who swear at them and call them filthy names and whatever else. We know why they made those choices, perhaps we can be a bit nicer to them and give them a measure of grace, and


2.) They keep on saying that "vaccines don't cause autism" but something causes autism. It doesn't just come out of thin air for no reason. More people than ever before have autism. The rates are in the stratosphere now (and no, I don't believe for one second that they were always this high but no one ever recognized it before). So if something causes it, perhaps we should try to figure out what that "something" is.

Yes. Try to figure out what causes Autism. A noble quest.

But it isn't vaccines. Again. Autism is a genetic condition. Vaccines don't change genes.
And we are born with autism, or you don't have it. And again, a very quick Google search will tell you that autism is a genetic condition that is established before birth.

Vaccines come later, after we already have autism, or don't.

But you are right, something causes autism. Maybe it is caused by many factors. But there is no connection whatsoever to any vaccine. In fact, that's impossible, unless kids change genetically, right after they get vaccinated.

[Bewley]

Originally Posted by Odahh

i thought the with the astrozenica vaccine being like 60 percent effective it was deamed really a waste to distribute it so the resources where put into the more effective vaccines that give high 90 percent protection

Initially, the AZ vaccine was a political and supply issue between the UK and the EU. There were lots of disinformation about the efficacy of the vaccine. It was highly efficacious against the original strain of Covid-19. Less so against the UK variant - but still very effective against hospitalisation and death.

The AZ vaccine is being widely used in the UK, mainland Europe, Canada and many other countries throughout the world.

We, in the UK, are in the midst of a third wave because the predominant variant (about 96%) is now the highly infectious 'Delta strain' (the Indian variant). It's this variant that is predicted to be the dominant variant, world-wide in the coming months.

We are averaging about 11 - 12,000 infections per day. This is now beginning to plateau. We currently have about 1,386 Covid admissions in hospital - to give this some context, we have 1,257 hospitals in the UK. At the peak of the last wave (Jan & feb this year), we had over 44,000 hospital admissions in a day. Hospital admissions, in the main, are those that have either not had the vaccine, for whatever reason or those that have had only one jab. A very small proportion have had two jabs but have underlying severe health conditions.

The best news is that deaths (strange to equate death with good news) are in the single digits per day. Today's death were 5. Up 2 on this day last week.

All the data has been pored over and the conclusion is that the AZ vaccine has saved 1000s of lives in the UK and many more wherever it is being used.

To counter Odahh's point - the latest data shows that the AZ vaccine is 92% efficacious against the now dominant variant, the Delta strain. So it's 'far from a waste'.

https://www.astrazeneca.com/media-ce...n-variant.html

[Odahh]

Originally Posted by Bewley

Initially,

To counter Odahh's point - the latest data shows that the AZ vaccine in 92% efficacious against the now dominant variant, the Delta strain. So it's 'far from a waste'.

https://www.astrazeneca.com/media-ce...n-variant.html

thank you for correcting me so fast ..the results google gave me where month out of date .. that is very good news and i am glad i am toatlly wrong in this case ..

the result i was getting still had it showing percent in the 60"s

[Angela V. Edwards]

The problem with the Astrazeneca vaccine was not that it was not effective. From the article I posted above:

The potential problem first came to light with a few reports of thromboembolism and other blood-related conditions in people in Austria and Norway who were vaccinated, with the initial investigation focusing mainly on two batches of AstraZeneca-Oxford vaccine made in Europe.

They pulled the vaccine until they could study it further. These conditions may be related to the vaccine but they also might not be. They pulled it due to an abundance of caution. It had nothing to do with ineffectiveness.

[Angela V. Edwards]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Yes. Try to figure out what causes Autism. A noble quest.

But it isn't vaccines. Again. Autism is a genetic condition. Vaccines don't change genes.
And we are born with autism, or you don't have it. And again, a very quick Google search will tell you that autism is a genetic condition that is established before birth.

Vaccines come later, after we already have autism, or don't.

But you are right, something causes autism. Maybe it is caused by many factors. But there is no connection whatsoever to any vaccine. In fact, that's impossible, unless kids change genetically, right after they get vaccinated.

This is all very likely true. The idea they came from the vaccines (and not that the kid was born with autism) might be because the autism wasn't recognized until the child was old enough to require vaccines. Therefore it appeared that the autism and the vaccines came at the same time. That may be where some of that comes from, although I do know there was a bit of deception about this issue in the past (which helps nobody, as you know).

[Mark Singletary]

Originally Posted by Bewley

To counter Odahh's point - the latest data shows that the AZ vaccine is 92% efficacious against the now dominant variant, the Delta strain. So it's 'far from a waste'.

https://www.astrazeneca.com/media-ce...n-variant.html

Like I've mentioned a couple of times, the vaccines seem to be helping so even though I have questions about long term effects, death, blood clots, etc. I don't think they are a waste.

However, trying to prove something with a press release from the manufacturer who quotes an unpublished and not yet peer reviewed study seems a little markety (new word). What do you think their press release is going to say?

Mark

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

This is all very likely true. The idea they came from the vaccines (and not that the kid was born with autism) might be because the autism wasn't recognized until the child was old enough to require vaccines.

That right there. That's a good argument.

[Kay King]

Angela's post reminded me - remember the anti-vaxxers we had on this forum some years ago? They were crusaders.

If true, this brief article is interesting:
https://www.npr.org/2021/05/13/99657...vaccine-hoaxes

Anti-vaxxers today are activists - they are against the covid vaccines and don't just decide not to be vaccinated themselves but spread misinformation in an attempt to convince others not to get the shots. The backlash against them is a result of that perhaps. The link below has an interesting view of the anti-vax movement.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...-covid-vaccine

I think I said earlier in the thread - I didn't get a 'flu shot' for seasonal flu year after year. I expect the same will be true for the covid vaccine going forward. By next year it may even be rolled into the seasonal flu vaccine. Some good news recently is that it seems the protection offered by the vaccines lasts far longer than was first expected.

[Angela V. Edwards]

Originally Posted by Kay King

Anti-vaxxers today are activists - they are against the covid vaccines and don't just decide not to be vaccinated themselves but spread misinformation in an attempt to convince others not to get the shots.

I would have a problem with this. First off, I actually believe vaccines are important. My mother's brother, my Uncle Sam (yes, I really have an Uncle Sam, LOL) caught the measles as a kid which caused encephalitis. From that, he got so much brain damage that he's been disabled with several types of Epilepsy, including Grand Mal, since he was 12. He's never been able to hold down a job or live alone or any of those things a regular adult can do.

Second, as a Freedom Loving Patriot, I don't go around and try to tell other people what they should or should not be doing. Trying to convince other people, especially parents, to not vaccinate their children is just plain wrong and I can see why people get upset about that sort of thing. I don't mind quietly letting the "anti vax" parents do their thing but they don't get to tell me or anyone else what we should be doing.

[Odahh]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

This is all very likely true. The idea they came from the vaccines (and not that the kid was born with autism) might be because the autism wasn't recognized until the child was old enough to require vaccines. Therefore it appeared that the autism and the vaccines came at the same time. That may be where some of that comes from, although I do know there was a bit of deception about this issue in the past (which helps nobody, as you know).

in the year 2000 the statics where 1 in150 children of a certain age had autism spectrum disorder .. now it is near 1 in 50 ..

my bias is to blame most of our health problems on the world wide food system we US that just destroys the environment ....so if we are doming toxins and pollution into our food chains around the world .. it aggregates up to humans as the apex predator ..

it is interesting to read the research of what is found in woman's breast milk ..the toxins that should not be their ..and the effects they have ..


on a side note .. even though i have had both vaccine shots and i will be glad to ditch the mask .. i hope we don't go back to shaking hands ..

[Angela V. Edwards]

Originally Posted by Odahh

in the year 2000 the statics where 1 in150 children of a certain age had autism spectrum disorder .. now it is near 1 in 50 ..

my bias is to blame most of our health problems on the world wide food system we US that just destroys the environment ....so if we are doming toxins and pollution into our food chains around the world .. it aggregates up to humans as the apex predator ..

it is interesting to read the research of what is found in woman's breast milk ..the toxins that should not be their ..and the effects they have ..


on a side note .. even though i have had both vaccine shots and i will be glad to ditch the mask .. i hope we don't go back to shaking hands ..

I think the food system just may be contributing to the autism we have now. I know that here in the US, our food supply is dismal. Even the soil used to grow the produce is lacking in nutrients that used to be plentiful in our soil and don't even get me going on toxins. To me, this as a contributing factor seems likely.



I also hope we don't go back to shaking hands. I managed a restaurant for 20 years (actually, it was Jack in the Box and I was there through the E. coli 0157:h7 crisis that took place here in the Pacific Northwest in 1993) and I learned sanitation and food safety. You'd be amazed at the number of people who do not wash their hands after using the restroom. I don't want to touch that. Gross.


Also, no there is no "three second" "five second" or any other rule like that. If food touches the floor, throw it out. It is not only pathogens that could get on the food when it falls. There could be hair, pieces of glass, pieces of tissue tracked in from the restroom, etc etc etc. Don't ever eat or serve food that has touched the floor.


I'll stop preaching now.

[socialentry]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

I
Second, as a Freedom Loving Patriot, I don't go around and try to tell other people what they should or should not be doing.

but wat if ur lifestyle revolves around selling cocaine to schoolchildren.

[Odahh]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

I think the food system just may be contributing to the autism we have now. I know that here in the US, our food supply is dismal. Even the soil used to grow the produce is lacking in nutrients that used to be plentiful in our soil and don't even get me going on toxins. To me, this as a contributing factor seems likely.

this goes back to freedoms and personal choices ..the food system we have produced more of the food people found tasty and cheep ..as these supply side shocks post lockdown coupled with china buying up every extra scrap of food .. and because we have 4 corporations who process our meat products they are now purposefully limiting supply to make more money .. because not enough workers ..

now post lockdown and covid..if you have the money there are several ways to get fresh produce sent to you ..or meat shipped to you in your preferred cuts ..so people can either spend a little bit more money on better food .. and save on medication.. or live of the highly processes sugar and salt filled food .. save money early on then have to buy expensive insulin ..

[Bewley]

Originally Posted by Odahh

now post lockdown and covid..if you have the money there are several ways to get fresh produce sent to you ..or meat shipped to you in your preferred cuts ..so people can either spend a little bit more money on better food .. and save on medication.. or live of the highly processes sugar and salt filled food .. save money early on then have to buy expensive insulin ..

The very fact that Type 1 & 2 diabetics have to buy insulin is a complete anathema to me.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

I think the food system just may be contributing to the autism we have now. I know that here in the US, our food supply is dismal. Even the soil used to grow the produce is lacking in nutrients that used to be plentiful in our soil and don't even get me going on toxins. To me, this as a contributing factor seems likely.

Autism is a genetic defect. Diet doesn't change your genes.

One possibility that occurred to me is that more kids are getting diagnosed with Autism now, simply because fewer kids were tested years ago.

And autism is on a spectrum. you can have autism and have almost no symptoms. And you can be autistic and be completely disabled. Maybe doctors are just getting better at diagnosing the defect.

I suppose it's possible that diet changes the diagnosis. An unhealthy child with autism may have different levels of symptoms than a healthy child fed a good diet, and raised by really engaged parents.

That's a guess.

[Kay King]

One possibility that occurred to me is that more kids are getting diagnosed with Autism now, simply because fewer kids were tested years ago.

That is part of the issue.


When it comes to 'food' -- I wonder if the addition of so many prepared foods with additives/preservatives that have become diet staples in the past 50-60 years....or the increase in obesity for that matter....might have changed the parent's DNA.


Another theory I've wondered about; Experts say most Autism is genetic passed on by the father and mostly diagnosed in boys. Wonder how many of those parents were on ritalin as children? I remember how angry a teacher was with me when I refused to give my son Ritalin to 'calm him down'. Only thing wrong with him was he was a healthy boy... For a whole generation, medicating kids to keep them manageable was considered acceptable.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Kay King

That is part of the issue.


When it comes to 'food' -- I wonder if the addition of so many prepared foods with additives/preservatives that have become diet staples in the past 50-60 years....or the increase in obesity for that matter....might have changed the parent's DNA.

Food cannot change your DNA.....however, what you eat (and stresses) can change how your genes are expressed. I just looked it up. If you have the genetic makeup for autism, you have autism. But what you eat can change how the genes are activated. In other words, it can make the condition better or worse. Just like environment, parenting, siblings, change how autism is expressed.

I think I've reached the end of all I know about autism.

[Kay King]

Just to be clear - I'm not referring to those with autism. I'm wondering if the parents of autistic children have commonalities... and I'm sure scientists have covered it somewhere.

for example...men who took Ritalin from age 4 to 17 (which was not uncommon)....are they more likely to have autistic children?

I think science will find the key to autism - hope it happens soon.

From a govt drugabuse site:

you can't change your actual genes, but using drugs (and other choices you make) can influence which of your genes affect your health. These changes in gene expression can also be passed on to your children and grandchildren.

(bolded words are as they appear in the article...)

[Odahh]

Originally Posted by Kay King

Just to be clear - I'm not referring to those with autism. I'm wondering if the parents of autistic children have commonalities... and I'm sure scientists have covered it somewhere.

for example...men who took Ritalin from age 4 to 17 (which was not uncommon)....are they more likely to have autistic children?

I think science will find the key to autism - hope it happens soon.

From a govt drugabuse site:

(bolded words are as they appear in the article...)

everyone could be looking for a problem that does not exist ..around the world there are falling fertility rates ..what if parent with higher function autism are just in a better finacial position or where more likely to get educated and marry other educated people ..who may have been on the spectrum ..which put them in a better position to have children .

while people not on the spectrum are having fewer children .. people on the spectrum are having the same number or more ..

but that is radical ..so .

[Angela V. Edwards]

Originally Posted by socialentry

but wat if ur lifestyle revolves around selling cocaine to schoolchildren.

Obviously, I would not be okay with that. Consenting adults can do whatever they want and live with/marry whoever they want. They will get zero input from me except to perhaps congratulate them and wish them well. People who harm children (Josh Duggar) will hear from me. I don't condone harm to children. Like all the rest of you.