[Angela V. Edwards]

Originally Posted by savidge4

Please don't call it a Vaccine, because it isnt... but how is it working? It is working exactly how it is supposed to. It is suppressing the symptoms. As I am reading the 6 out of 56 people ( on separate planes apparently ) + an aide of Pelosi's are all for the most part Asymptomatic. Congestion and headaches as I am reading.

So what you're saying is that the people who have gotten the vaccine can, indeed, contract Covid but will be asymptomatic. Well, that's not very good news because what about the people they pass the virus to? Are you saying that vaccinated people could get Covid but won't have symptoms and the people they pass it to won't get symptoms either? You'd have to show me hard evidence to get me to believe that. I don't believe even the "science" has those kinds of answers.



We're supposed to get vaccinated so we don't get very ill and so we don't pass it along to others. Doesn't sound like it's "working" to me.

[savidge4]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

So what you're saying is that the people who have gotten the vaccine can, indeed, contract Covid but will be asymptomatic. Well, that's not very good news because what about the people they pass the virus to? Are you saying that vaccinated people could get Covid but won't have symptoms and the people they pass it to won't get symptoms either? You'd have to show me hard evidence to get me to believe that. I don't believe even the "science" has those kinds of answers.



We're supposed to get vaccinated so we don't get very ill and so we don't pass it along to others. Doesn't sound like it's "working" to me.

I have provided the answers the in the above links. 5 as in FIVE people since this all began according to the CDC have gotten Covid 2x. meaning got it once and then got it again. The number world wide is like 54 or something.

Just in the last few days as you have stated... 56 people on 2 airplanes without masks ( idiots #1, and #2 they broke federal law by doing this - its still mandated that flying on a plane you wear a mask ) have spread the Virus amungst themselves for a total of 6 on the planes and at least one in DC that has been in close proximity.

so read what you have just stated.. and re read I what i just stated above. IF you have had Covid, the chances of you getting it a 2nd time are right up there with slim and none. If you have not had Covid, and have the "SHOT" you are capable of getting Covid, and spreading Covid. What the shot does is lessen the effect of Covid once you have it.

The "Shot" is in no way shape or form a "Vaccine" is literally that simple. Its like taking Advil or Tylenol before you exercise to reduce the pain afterwards - make sense?

The ultimate goal here is "Herd Immunity". 70%+ of the population that GETS the Virus will diminish the spread overall. The "Shot" once you have it, does not place you in the category of "Herd Immunity". Again it has clearly been mislabeled / misrepresented as a "Vaccine" and it is NOT a "Vaccine" Measles, Mumps, Polio and what ever else shots are given to young children that STOPS the ability to get those diseases is indeed a "Vaccine" This "Shot" is not that. If we want to get more medical technical about it, the J&J "Shot" would be the closest by design to a "Vaccine" as we know them historically.

2 planes with 56 people people between them and 6 now have Covid, and its been transmitted to another outside the group.. and these 56 people have been in close proximity to each other for days... AND they have all had the "Shot". THAT is the reality. On the Shot, you can get Covid, and you can Pass Covid, its as simple as that.

I dont need to convince you of anything - YOUR example should be proof enough that the powers that be have misrepresented "The Shot" The powers that be are being down right dangerous at this point. If you have had the shot.. you can goto school without wearing a mask - in many Colleges and districts around this fine nation it is REQUIRED that you have the vaccine to attend classes - EVEN if you have already had Covid.

So these people that have the little white card can then walk around without masks on. Again 56 State Senators, ALL "vaccinated" and 6 now have tested positive for Covid... thats 10% kids. 150,000,000 people have been "vaccinated" and some super quick math says 15,000,000 will get Covid that ARE "vaccinated". Its NOT miniscule as they want to tell you. BUT and this is a HUGE BUT - If you have the "Shot" and you get Covid, you will more than likely be Asymptomatic, and not even know you had it. and in doing so you would no longer be able to get it, or pass it. THAT is the end goal that the powers that be are afraid to tell YOU. Herd Immunity by getting Covid is the end goal, the Shot is the safest path to getting there.

I dont know what to tell you... Im sorry you believed the lies... Im sorry they have lied.. I dont really understand why they would have lied. Seems to me that if the whole process was presented as "Fast Tracked" and this is what we have kids, a "shot" that diminishes the effect after getting Covid, so that we can get our population as close to herd immunity as possible as safely as possible?

Someone could swing not so way over to conspiracy land and suggest that the 6 Dems actually have NOT tested positive and this is a political scare tactic to increase the number of people that gets "Shot". Again, as I have said in the above previous post I am doing my very best to keep this information as much left leaning as I can.

No matter how you slice this, Left, Right, or Center we have been lied to. No clue to what the truth really is.. but the "Science", The "Data" out of all of this, if you are willing to dig and dig is right there. It is NOT a "Vaccine" plain and simple... Ive been saying this after reading the initial test result prior to it being distributed - They didnt hide any of this - they just never communicated the facts.

[Kay King]

So how are these vaccines "working" so well?? Huh??

So what you're saying

This thread has stayed open and active as long as it has (a record for this forum) because members have, for the most part, stayed away from politics and from rude replies.


Not aimed at any one person/poster:


Members in this thread are not (nor claim to be) medical experts - and not charged with answering questions/challenges. Discussion is great - right fighting risks having the thread closed and until this pandemic is over we'd like to keep this open.


No one (here, at least) will MAKE you get the shots....but speaking for myself, I'm not changing how I live because other people chose not to protect themselves. There is no 'perfectly safe' choice -we each weigh the pros and cons.

I had a pretty strong reaction to the second 'shot' - and in hindsight my doctor agrees that was probably because I had antibodies from contracting covid last winter. I didn't have to call a doctor or go to the hospital for either covid (3 week duration) or the reaction to the vaccine. Media is happy to spin results and tests and studies and make them as frightening as possible.

As for the Texas politicians - we have no proof they WERE vaccinated - only their word. We have no proof of positive covid results - and the failure to release their names goes against everything the media has done in the past year. We know they are looking for excuses to stay away from the jobs they were elected to do. We know they violated FAA rules by flying with no masks... may have violated D.C. law by bringing a case of alcohol with them...sometimes karma wins.

The CDC reports in 335 deaths of children 0-17 yrs from covid in the past year. Putting it into perspective....49,725 children died from 'all causes' during the same time period....809 died from pneumonia....186 died of seasonal influenza. link is here
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/c....htm#SexAndAge

Yes, there have been some frightening side effects from the vaccine - but most of the 'reports' are trying to use SAERS (sp?) incident reports and those are not reliable statistics. Anyone can make one of those reports - and it may be accurate or not as they are not verified. The report might be a sore throat or upset stomach and most of those numbers did not need medical visits. Some media/sites are using numbers from a database meant to provide statistics for future research - to try to prove an argument that suits their agenda. Also true is there are many 'medical experts' willing to barf words for the cameras - so we have to consider the source as well as the numbers.

As thinking adults, we need to interpret logically rather than reacting emotionally. That's hard because there is no easy way out of this and we have to make the hard decisions for ourselves. What other people decide is not up you or me or anyone.


I would love to see some posts from people in countries other than the US. We have many members from India - a country currently hard hit by the pandemic...how are THEY coping? Are vaccines available to them?

[Angela V. Edwards]

Originally Posted by Kay King

As for the Texas politicians - we have no proof they WERE vaccinated - only their word. We have no proof of positive covid results - and the failure to release their names goes against everything the media has done in the past year. We know they are looking for excuses to stay away from the jobs they were elected to do. We know they violated FAA rules by flying with no masks... may have violated D.C. law by bringing a case of alcohol with them...sometimes karma wins.

With the possible exception of children in public school, someone's word is all you're going to get for "proof" of their Covid status. Their medical records, just like the records of every other American, are protected by HIPAA. It is a violation of someone's rights to force them to "prove" to someone who is not their medical provider that they've been vaccinated or that they're either negative or positive for Covid.

[savidge4]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

With the possible exception of children in public school, someone's word is all you're going to get for "proof" of their Covid status. Their medical records, just like the records of every other American, are protected by HIPAA. It is a violation of someone's rights to force them to "prove" to someone who is not their medical provider that they've been vaccinated or that they're either negative or positive for Covid.

Everything you say is true... it sure is protected EXCEPT when the proof is in the possession of the Patient. That little piece of paper that is handed to everyone that has been "injected" does NOT fall under the rules of HIPAA. They may be a bit dense in Washington but they are connivingly smart.

[savidge4]

Originally Posted by Kay King

I would love to see some posts from people in countries other than the US. We have many members from India - a country currently hard hit by the pandemic...how are THEY coping? Are vaccines available to them?

I shared this link above somewhere but it is actually ( I think ) one of the better data sites out there. ( https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vac...untry=OWID_WRL ) when you look at India as an example specifically and you see that only 1 per 1000 people are tested on a daily basis ( on a good day )

The site shows data in 1 per 1000 or one per million so it helps to look up the population of a country of interest... such as India at 1.366 Billion people ( 1,366,000,000 ) so you would multiply 1 per Million by 1,366 or 1 per 1000 by 1,366,000.

You can select multiple countries to compare. Say like Mexico and Canada as an example... we are basically open bordered with Mexico, and just extended the closed border with Canada ( I need to take a trip there and basically cant ) and the infection rate is far lower than Mexico ( 6x lower) and way lower than the States right now ( 10x lower )

Just cool stuff.

[Mark Singletary]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

With the possible exception of children in public school, someone's word is all you're going to get for "proof" of their Covid status. Their medical records, just like the records of every other American, are protected by HIPAA. It is a violation of someone's rights to force them to "prove" to someone who is not their medical provider that they've been vaccinated or that they're either negative or positive for Covid.

As someone who has worked closely with HIPAA compliance on a professional basis for many years, here are my thoughts.

1. There is an exception where HIPAA wouldn't necessarily apply and that is when there is a public health emergency. If a pandemic isn't an emergency, I'm not sure what would be one.

2. HIPAA only applies to healthcare providers and the like. Your employer is not covered by HIPAA probably nor is the school or the church or the store and they can ask if you are vaccinated. If they don't have to comply with HIPAA, they can't violate HIPAA.

3. As Savidge mentioned, when information is in the patient's possession, they can share the information with anyone they want to - willingly or otherwise (threatened to be fired or whatever).

4. Just like an employer can require an employee to wear a uniform, they can have other requirements too such as face masks or working behind a partition. An employee has some protection in the sense that they could say they can't comply with a vaccine or other rules for religious reasons, health issues, etc. But the employer can push it if they want to and make you prove there is a problem. By law they are required to make reasonable accommodations, but in some cases that isn't possible. Under OSHA, employers are required to provide a safe working environment. Someone spreading AIDS, the flu, COVID or whatever else could legally be asked to leave or be fired.

5. Why would children in school be different? HIPAA is HIPAA.

6. Remember that these are the people that by their own admission can listen to your phone calls, etc. Microsoft, Google, FB, etc. may know whether you've gotten the jab or not and they can be compelled to provide whatever information they have on you. So, if they want to know, they can know whether any of us like it or not. That's just the way it is. They could justify it by declaring a public health emergency perhaps. These days I just go on the assumption that someone somewhere may be listening. That's not paranoia speaking but just the realities of today. If it's not the NSA tracking you, your data could get caught up in the next ransomware scam. Privacy is basically dead. Even here, a good profile could be built about someone just from their posts.

My two cents.

Mark

[Declan O Flaherty]

Originally Posted by Profit Traveler

Coronavirus is like a Las Vegas Casino.

If you play the high risk game you are going to pay the ultimate price.

But the big difference is that some people do not realize when they play this high risk game it is directly pulling everyone into the high risk game.

And you lose all your chips...Game Over.


Being prepared yields a much better R.O.I. than being Optimistic. -Art

The high risk game is getting a shot of a vaccine with no long term data on the risks, for a virus with a 99.9X% rate. That's just basic common sense.

A high risk game is giving shots to healthy people who are not affected by this virus, especially children. Again, basic common sense.

A high risk game would be to shut down the world and destroy hundreds of millions of peoples livelihoods in the process. Not to mention the suicides, substance abuses and mental health problems, as well as the economy.

-- When the inventor of the PCR test tells you his invention shouldn't be used to detect coronavirus, and it's not on the front page of every newspaper, then you know there's something wrong. Not even a mention of Kary Mullis is more than enough to know you are being lied to.

-- When the inventor of the mRNA technology voices concerns about the vaccine, and instead of being on the front page of every newspaper, is instead silenced, then you know you are being lied to.

-- When you are being forced at gun point (vaccine passports) to get vaccinated, so you don't catch a virus and pass it onto a person who got vaccinated, for a virus they were vaccinated against catching, then not only are you being lied to... they are taking the piss out of you; treating you like an idiot.

-- When the powers that be are letting hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants into your Country every single month, who are untested, unvaccinated, and maybe super spreaders, but then scream bloody Murder when healthy people don't put a diaper on their face, then you know you are being lied to.

-- The biggest rally in UK history was two weeks ago. Isn't that a story worth covering? Why wasn't it plastered all over the front pages of every newspaper? Just let that sink in.

Don't even get me started on the flip-flopper Fauci and the lab leak. This has all been so obvious right from the beginning.

It has taken to 18 months to flatten a 2 week curve, and it's still going. Nothing flattened. You can wake up, or you can keep buying into their excuses (lies). You are either listening to criminals or idiots... take your pick, because there is NO third option.

[Kay King]

-- When the inventor of the PCR test tells you his invention shouldn't be used to detect coronavirus, and it's not on the front page of every newspaper, then you know there's something wrong. Not even a mention of Kary Mullis is more than enough to know you are being lied to.

https://fullfact.org/online/pcr-test-mullis/
".... the quote is actually from an article written by John Lauritsen in December 1996 about HIV and AIDS, not COVID-19"

-- When the inventor of the mRNA technology voices concerns about the vaccine, and instead of being on the front page of every newspaper, is instead silenced, then you know you are being lied to.

That is interesting and new info to me but it makes sense. YouTube banned his video - social media has been exerting more and more 'control' throughout the pandemic.
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...173600060.html

He is advising full disclosure - but his point is 'be informed' rather than 'don't be vaccinated'. From those various news articles, other articles have taken over turning his comments into conspiracy - telling people shots are totally unsafe...and that's not what he's saying.

-- When you are being forced at gun point (vaccine passports) to get vaccinated, so you don't catch a virus and pass it onto a person who got vaccinated, for a virus they were vaccinated against catching, then not only are you being lied to... they are taking the piss out of you; treating you like an idiot.

There are countries requiring the vaccine for entry - others offer the choice of presenting proof of vaccine or taking covid test. Where did you see 'at gun point'?
The only reference I found was a man with mental issues who stopped a covid delivery van and was then arrested.
https://thepointsguy.com/news/digita...rts-worldwide/

Sometimes treating people as idiots is appropriate. I mean, really - think about the people you know. Would you bet your life on THEIR advice?

-- When the powers that be are letting hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants into your Country every single month, who are untested, unvaccinated, and maybe super spreaders, but then scream bloody Murder when healthy people don't put a diaper on their face, then you know you are being lied to.

Fully agree with that. In the US we have a closed border with Canada and a fully open border with mexico....it makes no sense. The depth of the partisan divide here is nowhere as evident as on the Southern border.


-- The biggest rally in UK history was two weeks ago. Isn't that a story worth covering? Why wasn't it plastered all over the front pages of every newspaper? Just let that sink in.

According to the BBC that 'rally' was a gathering of people protesting multiple 'things' - not just covid. Why would a 'covid' protest be that critical? This is a personal choice you make - it doesn't matter what other people think. Throwing tennis balls at Parliament with 'nasty messages' on them is just silly when you consider many of protestors were shouting about climate change..

I think protests have become so common now that no one pays much attention to them. At least in the UK they weren't looting the businesses and destroying public and private property while 'protesting'.

If I can go online and find information, quotes, fact about various conspiracies mentioned...then is it a conspiracy or a bunch of bloggers and wannabe 'experts' looking for reaction? Time after time what i find is fact-as-news....from the inventor or group or other SOURCE....and then looking further I find 'interpretations' turning the story into something sinister or underhanded. It's the nature of getting attention online.

[max5ty]

Other than wacky conspiracy theories and nonsensical blabber...

I don't know why anyone wouldn't get the vaccine.

I got it.

I have wacky friends (on facebook) that have talked about the government tracking you...(they already can)...changing your DNA...(pure nonsense from even a first grader's knowledge of the basics of DNA)...political points...(Trump and Biden both got it)...

why in the world wouldn't you do everything we possibly can to protect ourselves?

Apparently, and probably, we're going back to wearing masks again because a lot of unofficial scientists and backyard health care experts are afraid the vaccine is an evil plot to destroy mankind.

Odd how some of those who oppose being vaccinated will take tons of pills and other medication every single day to stay alive, but protecting themselves and others from a deadly pandemic is where they draw the line.

Nonsense...

[Angela V. Edwards]

Originally Posted by savidge4

Everything you say is true... it sure is protected EXCEPT when the proof is in the possession of the Patient. That little piece of paper that is handed to everyone that has been "injected" does NOT fall under the rules of HIPAA. They may be a bit dense in Washington but they are connivingly smart.

That changes nothing. It is absolutely against the law for someone to require the patient to prove they've been vaccinated because any medical records they have fall under HIPAA protections, including evidence of a vaccination. The patient that gets "that little piece of paper" handed to them when they've been vaccinated is not required to show that information to anyone except their own medical provider. And the result is the same: we have nothing but someone's word for "evidence" they've been vaccinated.

[max5ty]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

That changes nothing. It is absolutely against the law for someone to require the patient to prove they've been vaccinated because any medical records they have fall under HIPAA protections, including evidence of a vaccination. The patient that gets "that little piece of paper" handed to them when they've been vaccinated is not required to show that information to anyone except their own medical provider. And the result is the same: we have nothing but someone's word for "evidence" they've been vaccinated.

Not true...

https://www.hipaajournal.com/is-it-a...accine-status/

[Kay King]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/09/b...yer-rules.html

Federal laws do not prevent companies from requiring employees to provide documentation or other confirmation of vaccination, though they must keep that information confidential.

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local...ation/2390529/

"HIPAA governs doctors, hospitals, companies like that," said Matthew Kugler, associate professor of law at Northwestern University. "If your restaurant says, 'Hey, show me your medical record,' that's something they can say. You don't have to say 'yes,' like you can be like, 'No, screw you, I'll go elsewhere.' But it isn't a HIPAA problem for them to ask to see it. It's only a HIPAA problem if they break into your doctor's office and steal it."

Anyone can ASK you for the proof of vaccination - you don't have to give it to them. But you may have to go to a different restaurant or entertainment venue - or you may have to find a different job.

https://www.hipaajournal.com/is-it-a...accine-status/

I support anyone's right to choose 'yes' or 'no' to being vaccinated...but then you should own your decision.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by max5ty

Odd how some of those who oppose being vaccinated will take tons of pills and other medication every single day to stay alive, but protecting themselves and others from a deadly pandemic is where they draw the line.

Nonsense...

one thing peculiar to vaccines, including the Covid vaccines...

It doesn't help getting the vaccine while you already have an infection from Covid. There are treatments that help lessen the severity of the virus, once you have it.

But if you didn't get vaccinated, and are in the hospital with Covid.....no matter how much you want the vaccine then...it isn't going to help.

The vaccine tricks your body into thinking you have the virus, so it creates anti-bodies to kill the virus. So the vaccine builds resistance to the virus (especially making you very sick or killing you), without you having to experience the real infection. That resistance to the virus stays for a long time (as yet, no absolute numbers, but certainly many months)

But once you have covid, and the infection is real, your body is already doing what the vaccine makes your body do...but now it's against a real infection that can damage your lungs or kill you. And it's too late for a vaccine to benefit you.

I just thought I'd give it another shot.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Kay King

I support anyone's right to choose 'yes' or 'no' to being vaccinated...but then you should own your decision.

Years ago, a friend of mine went with a group of us to a restaurant. He wanted to smoke, and they said smoking wasn't allowed in the restaurant.

He said "They can't tell me where I can smoke".

I said "They aren't. Your cigarettes are telling you where you can eat".

[max5ty]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

one thing peculiar to vaccines, including the Covid vaccines...

It doesn't help getting the vaccine while you already have an infection from Covid. There are treatments that help lessen the severity of the virus, once you have it.

But if you didn't get vaccinated, and are in the hospital with Covid.....no matter how much you want the vaccine then...it isn't going to help.

The vaccine tricks your body into thinking you have the virus, so it creates anti-bodies to kill the virus. So the vaccine builds resistance to the virus (especially making you very sick or killing you), without you having to experience the real infection. That resistance to the virus stays for a long time (as yet, no absolute numbers, but certainly many months)

But once you have covid, and the infection is real, your body is already doing what the vaccine makes your body do...but now it's against a real infection that can damage your lungs or kill you. And it's too late for a vaccine to benefit you.

I just thought I'd give it another shot.

My only fear right now i that we'll keep these variants of the covid virus alive and spreading (by refusing to get vaccinated), and eventually we'll have a variant that the vaccines won't stop. And we'll all...be back in the thick of it again. For no reason on Earth, except stupidity.

The vaccine actually works on a cellular level.

What a lot of people don't understand is that this vaccine wasn't just thought up over the last year or so...

the technology that this uses is the same idea that was being tested for an anti-cancer vaccine...which was in the works for quite a while.

They simply took the technology that was already being studied and realized how it could be beneficial to covid.

Too many people are sitting around thinking this whole thing was thrown together overnight, which isn't true, it's been in the works for years.

I think...and I'm pretty sure...we'll go back to masks again.

Just hoping there are no more shutdowns because we lost a lot of businesses over the last one

[Angela V. Edwards]

Hmmmmm...looks like the vaccine actually does not protect you from becoming very ill with Covid.



New Jersey officials say nearly 50 fully vaccinated residents have died from COVID-19



BTW: The Hill is a very Left-Leaning publication and you can find this story on multiple news sites. It won't do any good to get into the "Right Wing Conspiracy Theories" accusations. Nearly 50 fully vaccinated people in one state dying from Covid is a huge, concerning number.


49 people who were fully vaccinated have died of COVID in N.J. Here’s what we know.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

Hmmmmm...looks like the vaccine actually does not protect you from becoming very ill with Covid.



New Jersey officials say nearly 50 fully vaccinated residents have died from COVID-19

Yup. And here is more of what they said.

"Donna Leusner, a spokeswoman for the state Department of Health, told the news outlet that all 49 people who died were over 50 years old. Thirty were over 80 years old, 13 people were between 65 and 79 years old, and six were between 50 and 64 years old.

Leusner also said many of the people who died had preexisting conditions. Seventeen people had cardiovascular disease, nine had cancer or other conditions that compromised their immune systems and seven had diabetes, the news outlet reported. Others had chronic conditions in the lungs, kidney and liver."


The vaccine isn't a miracle. It still has to obey laws of physics. If you get the vaccine, it will greatly enhance your chances of not getting sick or dying. Cancer is still bad, Being obese with Diabetes is still bad. Having organ transplants still weaken your immune system.

But these people are not dying from the vaccine. They are dying because even with the vaccine, they are already so weak, even a mind Covid case will finish the job.

Currently, depending on the state, the people dying from Covid are between 96% and 99% unvaccinated people.

A quick calculation (In my head) means that being vaccinated, multiplies your chance of surviving a case of Covid by between 25 and 50 times.

And it's free. And it's available everywhere.

[Angela V. Edwards]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Yup. And here is more of what they said.

"Donna Leusner, a spokeswoman for the state Department of Health, told the news outlet that all 49 people who died were over 50 years old. Thirty were over 80 years old, 13 people were between 65 and 79 years old, and six were between 50 and 64 years old.

Leusner also said many of the people who died had preexisting conditions. Seventeen people had cardiovascular disease, nine had cancer or other conditions that compromised their immune systems and seven had diabetes, the news outlet reported. Others had chronic conditions in the lungs, kidney and liver."

So what you're saying is that the Covid vaccine failed to protect the very people Covid is the most dangerous to. All of these people are in the "biggest risk" group for Covid and all of them were vaccinated. And it failed to protect them.



Young people and people without pre-existing conditions already usually do not get very ill with Covid. Older people; especially those with comorbidities are the highest risk group of people for getting seriously ill or dying of Covid. Absolutely nothing at all is different now. So once again, we're seeing that the vaccine is not actually protecting all the people who have gotten it.


Not exactly sure what the point was of your post as it didn't prove that the vaccine protects people from getting seriously ill with or dying of Covid.

[max5ty]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

Hmmmmm...looks like the vaccine actually does not protect you from becoming very ill with Covid.



New Jersey officials say nearly 50 fully vaccinated residents have died from COVID-19



BTW: The Hill is a very Left-Leaning publication and you can find this story on multiple news sites. It won't do any good to get into the "Right Wing Conspiracy Theories" accusations. Nearly 50 fully vaccinated people in one state dying from Covid is a huge, concerning number.


49 people who were fully vaccinated have died of COVID in N.J. Here’s what we know.

Not bad considering over 5 million people were vaccinated in New Jersey...

[Angela V. Edwards]

Originally Posted by Kay King

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/09/b...yer-rules.html

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local...ation/2390529/


Anyone can ASK you for the proof of vaccination - you don't have to give it to them. But you may have to go to a different restaurant or entertainment venue - or you may have to find a different job.

https://www.hipaajournal.com/is-it-a...accine-status/

I support anyone's right to choose 'yes' or 'no' to being vaccinated...but then you should own your decision.

One problem I do see with all this (and I do not for one minute condone it) is that you will have "counterfeit vaccine paperwork" cropping up all over. People doing stuff like that is nothing new, of course. But it is something we'll have to be aware of if large numbers of businesses begin requiring evidence of vaccination.


When I was managing a business, we'd have the new bills ($20, $50, even $5 bills) come in and it would take less than two weeks before the counterfeit bill started to be passed around. And the new bills were supposed to be counterfeit resistant. LOL

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

Not exactly sure what the point was of your post as it didn't prove that the vaccine protects people from getting seriously ill with or dying of Covid.

The article you quoted goes on to say.

"Anthony Fauci, the country's leading infectious diseases expert, has mentioned that breakthrough cases among fully vaccinated people is inevitable but has stressed that more than 99 percent of those who died from COVID-19 in June were not vaccinated. "


So...99% of the deaths from Covid (in June) are from unvaccinated people. Again, it isn't a miracle. It doesn't make you invulnerable.

But if 99 percent of those who died from COVID-19 in June were not vaccinated, doesn't that fairly scream that vaccines save lives?

[Angela V. Edwards]

Originally Posted by max5ty

Not bad considering over 5 million people were vaccinated in New Jersey...

With that line of reasoning, it's "not bad" that only 600,000 people died of Covid out of a population of 328 million.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

With that line of reasoning, it's "not bad" that only 600,000 people died of Covid out of a population of 328 million.

No. With that line of reasoning, it would have been "not bad" if 3,500 people in the US died of Covid.

That's the difference between a nation with no vaccine, and taking the vaccine. If every adult in the US was vaccinated at the beginning (an impossible feat, even now), there would have been about 3,500 deaths from Covid in total.


Not 600,000.

[Angela V. Edwards]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

No. With that line of reasoning, it would have been "not bad" if 3,500 people in the US died of Covid.

That's the difference between a nation with no vaccine, and taking the vaccine. If every adult in the US was vaccinated at the beginning (an impossible feat, even now), there would have been about 3,500 deaths from Covid in total.


Not 600,000.

Obviously, the two numbers weren't the same percentage. However, both numbers are a small percentage of the whole. None of us want anyone to die of Covid, of course. Even one death is too many.


I said earlier in this thread that I give kudos to the powers-that-be who got the vaccine to us so quickly. And I realize that some of the "science" was already done from previous testing of other things. And yet, there are still some problems with this vaccine and some of us are concerned about that. This vaccine has not had the time to be as thoroughly tested as other vaccines. They haven't had the time as some of the tests determine what happens after a year, two years, three years. Those sorts of things. Most things that go through the FDA take years plural.



I'm glad that many are being vaccinated and not seeing any complications. That's good. But I am still not sure that I trust it enough at this time. And that's my personal right. Especially since at 55, I do not have even one of the "comorbidities" that put me at risk and for my entire life, I've always been the one who never catches anything. I am not on any type of prescription at all and have never had an "ongoing" prescription of any kind of medication. I do not have heart disease, diabetes, lung issues...anything like that. I'm as healthy as I was at the age of 12. I don't actually see an advantage to me to get the vaccine.

[max5ty]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

With that line of reasoning, it's "not bad" that only 600,000 people died of Covid out of a population of 328 million.

Actually, with my line of reasoning, and the fact that 34 million people fell victim to covid...I'm all behind finding a solution.

Nitpicking over a couple bad things here or there doesn't solve anything...it makes for good wacko news stories, but that's as far as it goes.

Statistics so far are showing the vaccine is working. It's not perfect, but it's working...

I'll take that over the looney bin that hasn't accomplished anything to solve the pandemic

[Princess Balestra]

Golden rule for hummergency peeps showin' up at any kinda major scene:


If'n they wavin' their arms around an screamin', ignore 'em.


If'n they lyin' still, check pulse for if'n you can save 'em or naht.


We might wish to invite upon ourselves sum smartah kinda distinction for stayin' alive, but it seems a way stoopid virus broadened the divisions on out so we might wanna kick the snuffers out an' go see whose frickin' pants're on fiyer.


El Schwangoville, imho.

[Angela V. Edwards]

Originally Posted by max5ty

Actually, with my line of reasoning, and the fact that 34 million people fell victim to covid...I'm all behind finding a solution.

Nitpicking over a couple bad things here or there doesn't solve anything...it makes for good wacko news stories, but that's as far as it goes.

Statistics so far are showing the vaccine is working. It's not perfect, but it's working...

I'll take that over the looney bin that hasn't accomplished anything to solve the pandemic

It does work for most people. I'm very glad about that. And most people are fine who get the vaccine. And I'm glad about that. But here's the problem: this vaccine has had a large number of "injuries" and even some deaths that have occurred after people got the vaccine and some of the "high risk" people still got Covid and have passed away from it. This particular vaccine seems to have some serious issues and I am not sure I trust it with my life. I am not an "anti vaxxer" or any of that sort of thing. But at this time, I do not trust this vaccine enough to trust my life to it.


Remember that even the fully vaccinated people (the Texas politicians) passed Covid along to other people who then tested positive for Covid as well. They are not testing everyone who has received the vaccine to see if they're positive for Covid so we have no idea how large that number is. But if these people can then go and pass Covid along to others, that really reduces the "effectiveness" of the vaccine.

[Mark Singletary]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

No. With that line of reasoning, it would have been "not bad" if 3,500 people in the US died of Covid.

That's the difference between a nation with no vaccine, and taking the vaccine. If every adult in the US was vaccinated at the beginning (an impossible feat, even now), there would have been about 3,500 deaths from Covid in total.


Not 600,000.

I'm curious where you get those numbers?

Mark

[max5ty]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

It does work for most people. I'm very glad about that. And most people are fine who get the vaccine. And I'm glad about that. But here's the problem: this vaccine has had a large number of "injuries" and even some deaths that have occurred after people got the vaccine and some of the "high risk" people still got Covid and have passed away from it. This particular vaccine seems to have some serious issues and I am not sure I trust it with my life. I am not an "anti vaxxer" or any of that sort of thing. But at this time, I do not trust this vaccine enough to trust my life to it.

Well Angela, I appreciate your honest thoughts.

We may disagree on this issue, but I still value your insights.

Some of my family disagrees with me (those $%^#@), just kidding.

On some things, we're all looking for the answers. Hopefully, we find them soon

[Princess Balestra]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

And yet, there are still some problems with this vaccine and some of us are concerned about that. This vaccine has not had the time to be as thoroughly tested as other vaccines. They haven't had the time as some of the tests determine what happens after a year, two years, three years.

Naht evry 'murgency rope gottah be woven from the tresses of angels, I guess.

"We wished to do our best for all who suffer down below, and in our hearts we knew we could wing it in a miracle instant — but if perfection is to retain its immortal sheen, it must forever be only 99% available. So are you a 99 percenter, or a 1% definer of illusory ropes? CLUE: this is not up to you because we are THE ANGELS. "

Lousy sales pitch, but the halo-like quoits of inevitability gotta hoop sumplace smart or they NUTHIN'.

Note to self: ropes an' quoits an' hoops inhabitin' the same metaphoric landscape? What are you, Princess? Nuts?

Self to note: ANGELS, you dummo! That was my actschwl areah!

[Angela V. Edwards]

Originally Posted by max5ty

I'll take that over the looney bin that hasn't accomplished anything to solve the pandemic

Well, if you're referring to me as part of the "looney bin" you can remember that I am the one who brought up the issue with the masks. If a scientist went into a room that contained deadly pathogens wearing a HAZMAT suit and then when he left the room he wadded up the hazmat suit and carried it around under his arm, putting it down on surfaces all over the place and left it in his car to put on the next day, we'd all be dead. That's exactly how the general public is handling the masks. Exactly like that which means that pathogens are being spread everywhere and other people are picking them up from things people touched. If Covid was Ebola or something like that, we'd have a serious problem with the way people handle the masks.



Don't forget I watched a politician who went into a venue wearing a mask, stripped it off at the podium and then touched his face 14 times. 14 times!! How well do you think that mask was protecting that person??

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

Obviously, the two numbers weren't the same percentage. However, both numbers are a small percentage of the whole. None of us want anyone to die of Covid, of course. Even one death is too many.

No. No. You said "With that line of reasoning, it's "not bad" that only 600,000 people died of Covid out of a population of 328 million"

Stick with what you said.

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

I'm curious where you get those numbers?

Mark

49 people died of Covid out of 5,000,000 people being vaccinated in New Jersey.

I rounded up the 49 deaths to 50. And I rounded up the US population to 350 million (to make the math easier to do in my head). Both roundings made the numbers less in the favor of my argument.




50 deaths out of 5 million vaccinated means one in 100,000 people who got the vaccine, still died from covid. Or .00001.

.00001 times 328 million equals 3,280 people would have died from covid after the vaccine if the entire country would have been vaccinated. Less than my estimate of 3,500.

Less than the 600,000 that actually died.



Added later: I slightly edited my sentence structure to make my point clearer.

[Mark Singletary]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

By the way, I'm glad you got your first jab. My big thrill was that for a few days, the swelling in my shoulder made me look slightly more muscular...in one shoulder.

Why I got the shot.

As I've pointed out several times in this thread, I have big questions about a lot of this. I think this is a narrative driven disease and that is part of why we have the divide we do.

We have our leaders who were hypocrites visiting family for Thanksgiving while scaring everyone else into staying home. Or getting their hair done while no one else could. Or being hypocritical about masks.

We have tons of people who loudly complained about the Sturgis motorcycle rally or Memorial Day beachgoers for wanting to kill grandma but not a peep about thousands of untested people coming daily over the border (some who have the disease).

We have everything about masks from they don't do any good to masks are a requirement punishable by law. They say this requirement may be coming back now that the majority of the US is vaccinated which doesn't make sense to me.

We have people pushing an untested vaccine. Everyone on one side says it's safe, don't worry yet the other side has a point in that we only have a few months experience with them, and they aren't even fully approved yet.

We have the politics which are bad on both sides. Lies, hypocrisy, blaming, threats, messaging, etc.

We have the uneven rules about lockdown (which may be coming back). Funerals are out (unless you are famous), eating outdoors is out (unless you are a rich movie company), mom & pop stores are out but Walmart is okay, etc.

In the end, I got the first shot and plan to get the second one when it's available.

Why? With all those questions am I crazy to do this?

I'm going to die of something in the next 20 years or so. It may be cancer or a car wreck or something busts open from the inside or a robber kills me. But one thing is true, I'm going to go somehow.

And it could very well be COVID. Something is killing those people. I think there are lying liars in some of the above questions. But everybody can't be in on a big lie. It's impossible.

I believe or see some truth in what both side A and side B say. I can look at the Gateway Pundit and CNN and everything in between and i try to do the best I can to figure things out.

I got the jab because I haven't finished what I set out to do in my life.

I got the jab because it's too early to leave my family.

I got the jab because sticking my head in the sand and ignoring things has never worked out for me.

I weighed all the evidence. I realize there may be lies. It may be a scam. It could be rich bankers. I don't know what all it could be, but I made the best decision for me. Because something is killing those people. And right now, the shots seem to be the only hope for someone heading into the 4th quarter with underlying health issues.

There are only two possibilities that I can think of as a result: either I get some immunity from COVID or protection if I do get it or I turn into a zombie (or similar) and die a horrible death (quick or slow) from the shot. But I'm going to go anyway at some point by some method. So, why not do what I can and hope for the best?

Mark

[Kay King]

That's exactly how the general public is handling the masks....
...
How well do you think that mask was protecting that person??

IMO, the more politicians that wear their masks wrong, the better off we might be...just sayin'...

In NJ over 5 million fully vaccinated....49 people who were vaccinated (and had contributing health factors) died of covid. I see nothing 'shocking' about those numbers....we KNOW vaccines are not 100% effective.

THIRTY of those 49 were over the age of 80... a sector of the population with a high mortality rate. Physically, that group may be more susceptible to covid...and unable to tolerate any reaction from the vaccine due to other health issues.

To look at it reasonably, wouldn't you need to know how many 80 and older died OF covid without vaccinations??? How many 80 and older were fully vaccinated ...and survived? Is anyone arguing that being vaccinated INCREASES the risk of contracting covid?

The problem with this pandemic is there is no 'safe place' -

there is no choice that does not have an element of risk to it. The emerging new problem is that those who are vaccinated are not willing to go back into 'restrictions' to protect those who aren't.

Our closest neighbor's Aunt is not speaking to him because he told her not to come to visit his family. She is not vaccinated and told him 'you all must wear masks around me'.... He has two children under 12 and she had no concern for them - only for herself. His Aunt told him he was 'violating my rights and discriminating against me'. Last night he said 'she'll never be welcome in our home again' - and that's sad.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Kay King

To look at it reasonably, wouldn't you need to know how many 80 and older died OF covid without vaccinations??? How many 80 and older were fully vaccinated ...and survived? Is anyone arguing that being vaccinated INCREASES the risk of contracting covid?

Intelligent questions...that I missed asking myself.

[Kay King]

Claude - it's what I live for

[Angela V. Edwards]

Originally Posted by Kay King

IMO, the more politicians that wear their masks wrong, the better off we might be...just sayin'...

In NJ over 5 million fully vaccinated....49 people who were vaccinated (and had contributing health factors) died of covid. I see nothing 'shocking' about those numbers....we KNOW vaccines are not 100% effective.

THIRTY of those 49 were over the age of 80... a sector of the population with a high mortality rate. Physically, that group may be more susceptible to covid...and unable to tolerate any reaction from the vaccine due to other health issues.

To look at it reasonably, wouldn't you need to know how many 80 and older died OF covid without vaccinations??? How many 80 and older were fully vaccinated ...and survived? Is anyone arguing that being vaccinated INCREASES the risk of contracting covid?

The problem with this pandemic is there is no 'safe place' -

there is no choice that does not have an element of risk to it. The emerging new problem is that those who are vaccinated are not willing to go back into 'restrictions' to protect those who aren't.

Our closest neighbor's Aunt is not speaking to him because he told her not to come to visit his family. She is not vaccinated and told him 'you all must wear masks around me'.... He has two children under 12 and she had no concern for them - only for herself. His Aunt told him he was 'violating my rights and discriminating against me'. Last night he said 'she'll never be welcome in our home again' - and that's sad.

That’s cute and everything but the issue of pretty much everybody using the mask wrong is a serious problem. People on this thread want to argue to the death about the vaccine but no one seems to give a passing thought to the problem that by using the masks wrong, pathogens are being spread far and wide. People DIED from this disease. Hundreds of thousands of them died. And yet, it’s “ho hum” that the mask misuse is exposing millions more people to the virus. No one seems to care. And apparently, older, sicker individuals can contract and die of Covid, vaccine or no vaccine.

Again, if this were Ebola or some disease you might see in a “Contagion” or “Outbreak” Hollywood movie, most of the population would be dead. If you don’t want scientists wadding up their hazmat suits and placing them all over the place after they leave a room with deadly pathogens then perhaps you should care more about people passing Covid pathogens all over by misusing the masks. It’s exactly the same thing and the same folks ready to give you what for if you don’t trust the vaccine don’t seem to care one tiny little bit. (Most of those people don’t really understand how the masks are supposed to work and believe odd things about them.) Unbelievable.

The masks work exactly like a hazmat suit works. It keeps the pathogens away from the nose and mouth of healthy people because the pathogens get “snagged” by the mask on their way to that person. That means the mask contains pathogens. And no one cares. If a person is positive for Covid, the mask will keep the pathogens away from other people….as long as the pathogens stay on the mask and not all over the hands and clothes and every surface the user comes in contact with.

[max5ty]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

That’s cute and everything but the issue of pretty much everybody using the mask wrong is a serious problem. People on this thread want to argue to the death about the vaccine but no one seems to give a passing thought to the problem that by using the masks wrong, pathogens are being spread far and wide. People DIED from this disease. Hundreds of thousands of them died. And yet, it’s “ho hum” that the mask misuse is exposing millions more people to the virus. No one seems to care. And apparently, older, sicker individuals can contract and die of Covid, vaccine or no vaccine.

Again, if this were Ebola or some disease you might see in a “Contagion” or “Outbreak” Hollywood movie, most of the population would be dead. If you don’t want scientists wadding up their hazmat suits and placing them all over the place after they leave a room with deadly pathogens then perhaps you should care more about people passing Covid pathogens all over by misusing the masks. It’s exactly the same thing and the same folks ready to give you what for if you don’t trust the vaccine don’t seem to care one tiny little bit. (Most of those people don’t really understand how the masks are supposed to work and believe odd things about them.) Unbelievable.

The masks work exactly like a hazmat suit works. It keeps the pathogens away from the nose and mouth of healthy people because the pathogens get “snagged” by the mask on their way to that person. That means the mask contains pathogens. And no one cares. If a person is positive for Covid, the mask will keep the pathogens away from other people….as long as the pathogens stay on the mask and not all over the hands and clothes and every surface the user comes in contact with.

What I would love to know...

what exactly would your plan, and those like you have been when we were hit with the pandemic?

What would you guys have done? And, what would your plan be for moving forward?

It is interesting how your side has so many "armchair quarterbacking" ideas...yet, nobody has really said how you guys would have handled it.

We were hit with a pandemic. Thousands were dying. Hospitals were being maxed out...

we put our best minds in the medical field to work, and they came up with a vaccine. No, it's not perfect...

but...then came the people with no ideas and knocked everything that was being done.

So, what exactly, without a bunch of blah, blah, blah, would your plan have been?

And, why do you have such a huge problem with the ones that were and are working on putting a plan into place?

I don't get it. It baffles my mind why some of you are so quick to knock down anything that is being tried...yet, you have offered absolutely no ideas to solve what was the biggest pandemic of our lifetime

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

The masks work exactly like a hazmat suit works. It keeps the pathogens away from the nose and mouth of healthy people because the pathogens get “snagged” by the mask on their way to that person. That means the mask contains pathogens. And no one cares. If a person is positive for Covid, the mask will keep the pathogens away from other people….as long as the pathogens stay on the mask and not all over the hands and clothes and every surface the user comes in contact with.

That's cute and everything.... (Sorry, I couldn't resist)

In hospitals, the masks are better sealed.

But the main purpose of wearing a mask isn't to protect you from getting the virus. It's purpose is to protect those around you from getting the virus from you, if you are infected.

Even the cheap masks with the ear loops do a very good job of stopping the virus, trapped in saliva droplets, from getting out to infect others.

And even if some virus escapes the mask, the distance they travel is almost nothing compared to someone sneezing without a mask.

Just wear a mask and sneeze into it (As I have often done) to know the effect.

As far as touching your mask after it's been used, I understand your concern.

But if you are touching your own mask, it doesn't really matter (And who is out there touching other people's masks?) If you have the virus, you can't infect yourself. If you don't have the virus, your mask won't have the virus on it. (unless a maskless person around you sneezes in your direction....who has the virus...because they refused to get the vaccine)

The gross misuse of the masks I've seen is the people wearing them to not cover the nose. Since we breath through our nose...and sneeze through our nose....it's like not wearing a mask at all. And when people wear masks like that, they are making a statement, and that why they wear them below the nose.

A new snag in all this is the Delta variant. It's more lethal.....but that's not the really bad part. This variant, that over 80% of new cases in the US have....has a viral load that is one thousand times as dense as the first covid virus. Evolution at work.

That in itself doesn't make it deadlier, but it dramatically increases the amount of virus that escapes from your nose and mouth, when you sneeze yell, or even just exhale (assuming you have the virus). This make the virus much easier to catch, because it increases the chance that you will breath out enough of the virus for the infection to take hold in someone else.

You talk about improper use of using a mask. And masks were important (and maybe will be again).

But the virus cases, hospitalizations, and deaths were rapidly growing, when we had masks. I wasn't until the vaccines that we saw a rapid decline in cases and deaths from the virus.

The vaccines are the real solution, not how we wear the masks,.

And when a large group of us refuses to get the vaccine. It guarantees the virus will be with us.

So if you want to make sure the Covid virus will never die, refusing to get vaccinated is the one sure way to guarantee it will be with us forever. (or until everyone gets the virus and it's many variants.)



My mind wants to explode when I realize how futile these explanations are.

[Angela V. Edwards]

Originally Posted by max5ty

What I would love to know...

what exactly would your plan, and those like you have been when we were hit with the pandemic?

What would you guys have done? And, what would your plan be for moving forward?

It is interesting how your side has so many "armchair quarterbacking" ideas...yet, nobody has really said how you guys would have handled it.

We were hit with a pandemic. Thousands were dying. Hospitals were being maxed out...

we put our best minds in the medical field to work, and they came up with a vaccine. No, it's not perfect...

but...then came the people with no ideas and knocked everything that was being done.

So, what exactly, without a bunch of blah, blah, blah, would your plan have been?

And, why do you have such a huge problem with the ones that were and are working on putting a plan into place?

I don't get it. It baffles my mind why some of you are so quick to knock down anything that is being tried...yet, you have offered absolutely no ideas to solve what was the biggest pandemic of our lifetime

Here is what I actually did: I put the mask on before I left the house. I had the mask on in my car (some people like to make fun of that because they don't understand the mask) and I wore it everywhere I went without touching it. When I got home, I placed the mask in the washer and immediately washed my hands. Because I have long curly hair, I also sprayed my hair with my hairspray that has Denatured Alcohol as its first ingredient so that there aren't pathogens left in my hair.



The "biggest pandemic of our lifetime" actually should have people taking the masks seriously, don't you think? Because, once again, the way the masks were being used protects absolutely no one and people seem to think my concerns about it are some kind of a joke. Until people are willing to look at all aspects of the pandemic and how to keep Covid from being spread, I am not going to take seriously someone else's suggestion of what I "should" do.


If every person who wore a mask treated it correctly, the virus likely would have spread much, much slower than it is spreading, even with the vaccine. Remember the "hazmat suit" example. If those pathogens just aren't getting out there, people won't be exposed. If the masks worked perfectly even with the mishandling of them, why did more people get sick? With the mask mandate going on, absolutely no one should have caught Covid after it was ordered, wouldn't you agree? Because at least in my state, you couldn't go anywhere without a mask on.



It's not true at all that I "offered no ideas" to solve the pandemic. That is a falsehood. You just don't like my idea.

[DWolfe]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

Hmmmmm...looks like the vaccine actually does not protect you from becoming very ill with Covid. New Jersey officials say nearly 50 fully vaccinated residents have died .....



BTW: The Hill is a very Left-Leaning publication and you can find this story on multiple news sites. It won't do any good to get into the "Right Wing Conspiracy Theories" accusations. Nearly 50 fully vaccinated people in one state dying from Covid is a huge, concerning number

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Yup. And here is more of what they said.

"Donna Leusner, a spokeswoman for the state Department of Health, told the news outlet that all 49 people who died were over 50 years old. Thirty were over 80 years old, 13 people were between 65 and 79 years old

Leusner also said many of the people who died had preexisting conditions. "


The vaccine isn't a miracle. It still has to obey laws of physics.. Cancer is still bad, Being obese with Diabetes is still bad.

But these people are not dying from the vaccine. They are dying because even with the vaccine, they are already so weak, even a mind Covid case will finish the job.
.

Do to forum rules, I won't post certain things. First off NJ (live in NJ) is the most densely populated state in the Nation - http://ready.nj.gov/mitigation/pdf/2...te_Profile.pdf

As pointed out in the article quoting Leusner, they had preexisting conditions. However if you live in NJ. Due to religious and ethnic backgrounds. It probably is not that hard to figure out what areas those people lived in. Would not be surprised if a few of them had relatives with Covid. Visited them from other parts of the country or around the world.


Saw this in a reddit thread with links. Here is something to ponder - Morris County has or had the highest percentage of Vaccinated people. Supposedly has the highest income and best educated in the state. It has one of the lowest death rates.

Now take a look at Ocean County. One of the biggest areas with outbreaks in the State. You could not go to local events last Summer. On top of some of the toughest local restrictions going into this year. One town in Ocean County was the major reason for those restrictions. Because a certain group had the highest rate of infections in the whole state.

It's sad those people died. A lot of the problems could of been avoided if they followed the Governors protocols in the beginning. When you mention nearly 50 people died that had the vaccination. It is probably a drop in the bucket to the fatality rates in Auto Accidents in this state.

Speaking of not getting Vaccinated cost these people their jobs - https://nj1015.com/rwj-barnabas-heal...id-19-vaccine/

[Angela V. Edwards]

Originally Posted by DWolfe

It's sad those people died. A lot of the problems could of been avoided if they followed the Governors protocols in the beginning. When you mention nearly 50 people died that had the vaccination. It is probably a drop in the bucket to the fatality rates in Auto Accidents in this state.

That may be true. However, we haven't been told "Do this and your chances of dying in a traffic accident are reduced to practically zero". It's alarming that the same high risk group of people can, indeed, contract Covid and pass away after getting the vaccine. Why are the same folks who are pushing the vaccine so hard rolling their eyes at that as if it's no concern at all? I know why: it's because they have an agenda. That's the reason. That's also why they care little about the widespread misuse of the masks which does actually spread Covid around to millions of people.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by DWolfe

It's sad those people died. A lot of the problems could of been avoided if they followed the Governors protocols in the beginning. When you mention nearly 50 people died that had the vaccination. It is probably a drop in the bucket to the fatality rates in Auto Accidents in this state.

I understand there are differences in populations. One populations skews older, one skews younger, one wealthier, one has better Covid mandates.

But I had to go with the numbers that were in the example given, to make the argument relevant.

At a 3,280 total number of deaths if the whole country were vaccinated, based on the example given...

Even if the number was off by 50% either way, from the real national figures....it's still a stark difference from the 600,000 deaths we had.

I think this example really screams for our attention, as to the solution to the Covid spreading.

[max5ty]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

That may be true. However, we haven't been told "Do this and your chances of dying in a traffic accident are reduced to practically zero".

You are required to wear a seat belt...which won't take your chances to zero but will put the odds in your favor...

same thing with the vaccine

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by max5ty

You are required to wear a seat belt...which won't take your chances to zero but will put the odds in your favor...

same thing with the vaccine

I like the analogy, but let's make it even more applicable.

Let's say that seat belts were tested for a year, and it was found that if you wore a seat belt, you had a one in 100,000 chance of dying in a crash....if you had a crash.

And by not wearing a seatbelt, you had a one in 50 chance of dying, when you had a crash.

Same roads, same speed, same cars, same drivers....everything is the same...except wearing a seatbelt.

And if someone said to you "Well, if seatbelts don't save the lives of everyone that has an auto accident, and I'm not guaranteed to survive, no matter how I drive or how fast....I'm not going to wear a seatbelt.. And....you're ignoring the bigger problem of people wearing their glasses too far foreword on their nose while driving. So let's solve that "how you wear your glasses problem" first. Why are the same folks who are pushing the seatbelts so hard rolling their eyes at the misuse of glasses, as if it's no concern at all? I know why: it's because they have an agenda. That's why they care little about the widespread misuse of how they wear their glasses when driving, which does actually cause the deaths of millions of people. "..

You might think they were being silly. Thank goodness we aren't having that discussion.

[Angela V. Edwards]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

And if someone said to you "Well, if seatbelts don't save the lives of everyone that has an auto accident, and I'm not guaranteed to survive, no matter how I drive or how fast....I'm not going to wear a seatbelt.. And....you're ignoring the bigger problem of people wearing their glasses too far foreword on their nose while driving. So let's solve that "how you wear your glasses problem" first. Why are the same folks who are pushing the seatbelts so hard rolling their eyes at the misuse of glasses, as if it's no concern at all? I know why: it's because they have an agenda. That's why they care little about the widespread misuse of how they wear their glasses when driving, which does actually cause the deaths of millions of people. "..

Not the same thing at all. It would be the same thing if seatbelts caused injury up to and including death to half a million people a year without them doing anything at all wrong with the seatbelt. If they were wearing the seatbelt just like everybody else wears them. Then, you'd have a good example. People aren't opposed to the vaccines just to be stubborn. We oppose the vaccines because the vaccine has caused injury up to and including death to almost half a million people in one year and people like me, who never get sick, don't think it's a good idea to trust my life to it.

(mod edit due to reposting deleted content)

[savidge4]

As I see it, there are some major flaws with the discussion.

#1 lets look at the positive rate... this is a super interesting Matrix. in a nutshell we have the total number of test taken ,and then the total number of positive tests. In the end you will have 100% so as of right now ( July 14th ) you have a 4.4% positive rate. Understanding what the matrix is showing that means out of 100 tests, ONLY 4.4 are coming back positive. You can click here: ( https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing ) and click on any specific country and get a day by day analysis of this number.

#2 Using the age of a person as a disqualifier to count. Using age to rationalize a lack of importance is just silly. look here: ( https://www.statista.com/statistics/...vid-by-age-us/ ) and to say oh they are old and they dont count... then there isnt 600,000 (+/=) deaths from Covid, there have only been what 150,000 that count. Silly right?

#3 pre existing conditions. This one kinda rubs wrong on a whole lot of levels... they would have died anyways etc etc. Unlike any other medical treatment in modern history the Covid vaccine is interesting. The greatest separation is the lack of a "Doctor" involved in the decision of who should and should not take the shot.

How many people know that people with HIV should be aware of the "Limited Safety Data"? how many people even knew such a thing existed? ( https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...onditions.html )

Then lets get into the list of high risk diseases as it pertains to Covid. ( https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...onditions.html ) how many people do you personally know that have said conditions just up and got the shot? again, there is a disconnect between getting the shot and maybe the advice of a doctor.

My wife has some medical conditions... It was a whole back and forth with a few doctors actually, that finally determined that the risk was worth getting the shot vs not getting the shot.

My Mother, stage 4 cancer... her doctors determined it was not worth the risk. And god bless her... If she is alive, she is going to live life... and is off sailing the Caribbean on a cruise ship for 14 days.

So to say that people with pre existing conditions were going to pass anyways - bull pucky.. a covid death is just that a covid death. The system in this regard is FAILING - get the shot they say, and no where do you hear or see... hey if you have this or that or the other here is some risks and maybe you should consult a doctor first - NAH just go into your local Walgreens and get the shot, and do it NOW.

Then lets really get into the meat and potato of things... CHOICE In the States the terms RGHTS come into play... and if you lay down the numbers, what we see in the media is really not so accurate. 330,000,000 people in the States. 34,000,000 have tested positive, 50% or 165,000,000 have had the shot. 60,000,000 fall into age categories where the shot is not given.

But what about say... me... never "tested" positive, but have a positive immunity? how many more are like me? Do we really believe only 34,000,000 people in the States have had Covid? how many people just stayed home like they were told, and got through it without getting tested. Now Im not going to say that of the 60,000,000 remaining as "un vaccinated" they all fall under having had it and just didn't get tested... but I think the number is probably equal to the number that has been tested as positive.

I think as it is played out that the number of "un Vaccinated" has been politicized. Only one side of the aisle would do such a thing right? and its just not that simple. There are people like my mother, that cant get the shot... there is a whole lists of risks that warrant assessing risk

We are at the point where RIGHTS and CHOICE and have to stand above all else. The 75,000,000 that died during WW2 didnt really have Rights, or the Choice. the 30 - 40,000,000 Americans that have chosen not to get the Shot... its on them... I cant force them to do it, and the Govt cant...

YOU dont have to like another persons choice.. you simply have to do what is right for you - and your family. Like I have said before.. in my house My wife got the shot, and my son and myself both have a positive immunity test to suggest we had it ( Asymptomatic ) and will not be getting the shot.

If ANY group of people should be MAD about not getting on with life at this point and restrictions and this and that and the other its is the people that had Covid, and lived to talk about it. The rest of the population shot or not, are just a petri dish of infection waiting to happen.. and the sooner we can get the tested "Positive" well beyond 34,000,000 and closer to 231,000,000 the better we will be.

And it is just that ( the 231,000,000 target ) that the "Shot" is supposed to get us to. get infected, get "immunity" The "Shot" is not designed to stop anything, you can get it, you can pass it... its ment to get across the Herd Immunity threshold with the least amount of pain suffering and death.

If the American public was told from the beginning that what it was ment to do - that is not a "Vaccine", I think there would have been far less friction

PS, unless driving my car at ridiculous speeds, i dont wear a seatbelt when driving

[max5ty]

Originally Posted by savidge4

If the American public was told from the beginning that what it was ment to do - that is not a "Vaccine", I think there would have been far less friction

PS, unless driving my car at ridiculous speeds, i dont wear a seatbelt when driving

A couple of my thoughts...

1. I don't believe if it had been rephrased the way you suggest that it would have swayed any of the people that are still opposed to getting the shot. It was always about them throwing a fit because they were/are determined the government isn't going to boss them around.

I have noticed the "anti-vaccine" crowd (a lot of them) have gone from "I'm not letting the government control me", to now starting to pull out any statistic they can find to hang their decision on in order to give their crowd a more "scientific" reason for their logic.

2. I have always heard from the beginning that if you have a medical condition, or are unsure whether you should get the shot, you should consult with your doctor.

3. Not sure if your last statement about the seat belt thing is just joking...

but, you do realize that even if you're driving at a ridiculously low speed, you can still get hit by an "Evil Knievel" that is driving at a ridiculously high speed...right?

I doubt any of the arguments in this thread have changed any minds. But, it's good to be able to vent sometimes

[savidge4]

Originally Posted by max5ty

A couple of my thoughts...

1. I don't believe if it had been rephrased the way you suggest that it would have swayed any of the people that are still opposed to getting the shot. It was always about them throwing a fit because they were/are determined the government isn't going to boss them around.

It may or may not have swayed anyone... but it would have been the "Truth" vs the mayhem we have today. Either somehow I am not seeing it or is it just me that would ask where is the same squabble about people not getting vaccinated in other countries? In the States it is just politically charged. Front page of the online news today and there is a story how the left is mocking the right for the shift in "immunization" message because the right is losing voters.

Originally Posted by max5ty

I have noticed the "anti-vaccine" crowd (a lot of them) have gone from "I'm not letting the government control me", to now starting to pull out any statistic they can find to hang their decision on in order to give their crowd a more "scientific" reason for their logic.

One has to wonder how large this population is... interestingly we can look here ( https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/con...gaAoM3EALw_wcB ) and then answer the poll on the bottom to see that 12% of respondents have not vaccinated their kids... maybe not an "absolute" number but something to go by for sure.

Originally Posted by max5ty

2. I have always heard from the beginning that if you have a medical condition, or are unsure whether you should get the shot, you should consult with your doctor.

We hear it, yes... but its not drilled... Have you ever heard the President say such a thing? ( not that I hang on every word of the man ) The overall message is when it doubt get the shot... or maybe get the shot first and ask questions later. There is no question in my mind that people are getting the shot that probably should not. Look at the "positive rate" data and understand 95.6% of people that got the test on July 14th didnt have covid... I think it says something more about the level of "FEAR" than it does anything else... I have a fever... I better get the test or ill die ( and I have actually heard this recently from someone I know, and they had the vaccine - Fear for this is running scary high )

Originally Posted by max5ty

3. Not sure if your last statement about the seat belt thing is just joking...

but, you do realize that even if you're driving at a ridiculously low speed, you can still get hit by an "Evil Knievel" that is driving at a ridiculously high speed...right?

On the grounds of not wanting to jack the thread on this I am going to try and not answer this, but driving vehicles with front, side and center airbags, by percentage wearing a seatbelt can do more harm than good.. so says the scientific research. And having been in a car that the bags have deployed - your not going anywhere trust me LOL

Originally Posted by max5ty

I doubt any of the arguments in this thread have changed any minds. But, it's good to be able to vent sometimes

You dont have to change minds to educate... I would suggest this discussion has changed expectations, which to me is more powerful.

Thanks for the reply