How Does This NOT Outrage You?

by kemdev
50 replies
Alright. Something has been bugging me for a long time, so I'm
finally going to get it off my chest. Listen up newbies.

(Excuse me if this is a bit long-winded...)

People buy information products in the Internet marketing niche
all the time, right? I mean, we see launch after launch of huge
claims, big promises, and big time promoters.

And newcomers eat this stuff up. They want to become the next
Internet marketing superstar. Whether they actually use the
information or not, they buy up the course and give it a good read
through (or not).

Now, we all know the basic of Internet marketing. To make money,
you need an offer, traffic, and conversions. Information about
these three aspects are all over the net... for free. So there's
no NEED for a complete newcomer to spend any money to get
the information that's needed.

Let's look at the average price of the Clickbank info product. I
think $67 is pretty accurate, right? I mean, there are courses
that sell for a lot more and a lot less, but $67 is a solid price
point for an 'average' information product.

Earlier, I stated that you need an offer, traffic, and conversions
to make sales online. Affiliate marketing knocks two of those out
of the park, so you only need to worry about one entirely. And
I'm sure we can all guess which one that is.

Traffic.

So lets take that original $67. How much traffic can you send
directly to an affiliate page for $67? (It IS possible to do this
with Yahoo, by the way. I'm not sure why more people aren't
doing it...)


Let's put an average CPC at $.25. Not a bad figure, especially
if you're just starting out. I wouldn't suggest spending any more
than this amount per click for any newbie. You always need to
test the waters first...

At that rate, you'd be getting about 270 clicks. Not too shabby.

Now lets take a typical affiliate program. Lets say you're
promoting a typical information product that is $67... of which
you're getting a 75% commission. This is pretty much standard
as far as Clickbank goes.

If the traffic you send only converts at a measly 1%, you'd be
making around 3 sales after rounding up. Your 75% commission
is giving you $50.25 per sale, making your total gain $150.75.
That's an $83.75 profit!

Sure... you're not rich. But you're making something. But that's
not where it should stop.

You see, creating a business takes time and money. You can
talk until you're blue in the face about free solutions to making
money online, but the facts still remain: you need an offer,
traffic, and conversions.

If you can't create a good offer, you need to outsource it. If
you can't write articles or do SEO, you need to outsource it.
You NEED to spend money on getting good, quality traffic. If
you can't write copy worth a damn, you need to outsource it.

And even if you can do any of those jobs, you shouldn't have
to. Businesses are creating by people who find a system. Do
you think Mike Filsaime or Frank Kern or Eban Pagan do any of
their own SEO or article writing or traffic generation or any of
that stuff? No. They have people who work full time who
spend their entire day perfecting and maintaining their craft.

If you want to create a legitimate business that will make you
money in the long run, you need money to invest. And that
money comes from little money-makers like the one I just
mentioned.

It doesn't come from spending hundreds or thousands on over
priced information. Once you start making money, you can
reinvest a little bit on that information so you can perfect
your craft and your system.

Some people spend thousands of dollars on courses they will
never use because they are taught strategies that will be
useful for them down the road... when they have a business
and money to invest in the systems and strategies talked
about.

Can you imagine how much money could be made by newbies
if they had spent money on traffic instead of on information
products? It's mind-boggling.

Your success is right out there waiting for you. You just
need to do some work and grab it. But you have to know this:
it's not going to come all at once. You're not going to have
that $30,000 within your first month or million dollar day. It's
just not feasible without the right resources.

Success in Internet marketing - like anything else - is like a
giant staircase. You take it one step at a time, building and
perfecting your past successes.

I hope this helped some newcomers with their journey in the
IM world.

All the best,
Jesse Kemmerer
kemmerer.j@gmail.com
#outrage
  • Profile picture of the author nick1123
    Good thoughts man.

    Unfortunately not everything converts that well. Some things convert very poorly.

    And the average newbie won't know the ins-n-outs of effective ppc.
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  • Profile picture of the author kemdev
    True, true - some affiliate programs do convert poorly. But how hard is
    it to find a Clickbank product that's ALREADY doing well and make a few
    promotions?

    Enough can be found about the subject for free to get the average
    newcomer up and running.
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  • Profile picture of the author HarrisonJ
    Some of the names mentioned do have great info products that you really can learn alot from.

    And yes, I think Mike Filsaime, Frank Kern and Eban Pagan do lots of their
    own SEO and article writing and traffic generation. They are constantly pumping out high quality free content. I don't think these guys outsource much of anything, except they do pay people to code for them.
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    • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
      Banned
      Why are you outraged about how others are choosing to spend their money?
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      • Profile picture of the author kfilliez
        In retrospect, I agree with you. It is ridiculous to pay for information you can get for free (knowing what I know now). The catch is: you've been involved in internet business and know where to find the 'right' information. Newbies are confused and timid about where to go and whom to trust.

        I used a internet business system to get my foot through the door. It wasn't super expensive and it helped organize how to use the internet to make money. Some of the information was crappy, and i have reworked the business to fit my personality and expertise. but the outline helped a lot.

        To chastise newbies for paying 'help' is a little harsh. What you wrote about how to begin a business is a great rough draft but implementation of the components can be a bit overwhelming.

        I don't think its a bad thing to pay for help if it makes starting your internet business easier and increases your profits.

        Good Luck Everyone!
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      • Profile picture of the author Rory Wilkinson
        Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

        Why are you outraged about how others are choosing to spend their money?
        Lol.

        A (good) $67 ebook or course can teach you a lot about traffic generation and if you follow it correctly you can get a lot of good traffic for free or at least be better equipped at ppc.

        To spend the $67 on ppc for majority of beginners would be very stupid advice. Seriously. 99% of them would simply lose their money and have learnt nothing.

        Sure people can find a lot of information for free on the net if they are willing to do the research AND they know what they are searching for. But for for most people this just leads to information overload and confusion.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
          Why do people buy info products? Honestly, there is free information available online for any topic - and it's been like that since the early 90s. However, infopreneurs still sell e-books, Amazon still sells physical books, why?

          Because, we infopreneurs package the information. We save the buyer from futile search. Save them from sifting through a ton of re-hashed articles, blog posts, and other sources of scraps of information - some of which may be good, some of which is ****e.

          When I need some information on how to use a new piece of software for my business, I don't waste all my precious time hunting down something that may or may not help me. I don't know about you, but my time is valuable to me. For $67 you can save yourself a lot of time.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shawn Mason
      Originally Posted by HarrisonJ View Post

      Some of the names mentioned do have great info products that you really can learn alot from.

      And yes, I think Mike Filsaime, Frank Kern and Eban Pagan do lots of their
      own SEO and article writing and traffic generation. They are constantly pumping out high quality free content. I don't think these guys outsource much of anything, except they do pay people to code for them.
      I know that Mike, at least when he was starting out had a programmer partner who built all the viral sites, Mike did most of the copywriting and marketing..

      Who knows who he's got working for him now..
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      • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
        Originally Posted by HarrisonJ View Post

        Some of the names mentioned do have great info products that you really can learn alot from.

        And yes, I think Mike Filsaime, Frank Kern and Eban Pagan do lots of their
        own SEO and article writing and traffic generation. They are constantly pumping out high quality free content. I don't think these guys outsource much of anything, except they do pay people to code for them.
        I can't speak for those guys specifically, but as a former professional mouthpiece for some well-known guru types you may have heard of, I wrote easily 85 to 90% of the content (promotional and educational) that was mailed to our list, and at least a draft of every salesletter for every product we sold. Business guys are busy, and copywriteres can be hired, trained and honed on the job.

        Originally Posted by George Wright View Post

        Hi,

        So let me get this straight. Don't buy anything just sell stuff to those who buy, right?

        George Wright
        Lol, exactly right.

        I think the real problem is not that there's nothing worth the newbie's money. The problem is that there's no way for the newbie to find out what's good and what's not because our industry generates fake reviews from affiliates. The same tools that make it easy for smart,ethical people to grow real businesses online makes it easy for lazy scammers to republish trash for a quick buck.

        Welcome to a Free Market Society.

        But don't lament that, because if you spend the time to build an audience by being ubiquitous in your niche, and you spend the effort to create and provide a continuously superior experience, the "competition" is actually churning out prime prospects for you with every ball they drop.

        Here's a little brain-bending psychological marketing tip: Once someone is sold on a "dream" they will NEVER give it up. They may become cynical about it, jaded, skeptical... They may get burned by the guy who sold them on the dream when the actual goods didn't deliver it.

        But that dream NEVER goes away once someone adopts it as their own. It lives on forever under a cloud of "maybe" and "what if", just waiting for someone to tug on that string and start the seduction over.

        I like when that happens. It's easier to sell to skeptics than to sell to total newbies, because part of a profitable long-term relationship is setting reasonable expectations and then exceeding them. Skeptics have MUCH lower expectations, and they're a lot easier to impress, because they're expecting NOTHING. Plus, skeptics will give you the BEST information you can get about any market.

        They're world-worn, they've seen it all, they know what's available, what's good, what's crap and what's MISSING from the marketplace. And they're MAD so they'll COMPLAIN LOUDLY. And it's all right there for you to see.

        Marketing is finding out what people want and giving it to them, right? So PLEASE, crappy marketers - PLEASE continue to bust your ass to sell the dream and leave the easy part to me.
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    • Profile picture of the author mikefilsaime
      Originally Posted by HarrisonJ View Post

      Some of the names mentioned do have great info products that you really can learn alot from.

      And yes, I think Mike Filsaime, Frank Kern and Eban Pagan do lots of their
      own SEO and article writing and traffic generation. They are constantly pumping out high quality free content. I don't think these guys outsource much of anything, except they do pay people to code for them.
      Just for the record.

      I have 67 Employees in 7 companies. I can't speak for Eben or Frank. Although I know Eben has 80 employees. I do not do my own SEO. I do not do article Writing. And I do not do my own PPC etc.

      I pay my staff to do it.

      I am not typical however. So it would be best to have this discussion without relating it to me. I started out by myself and in this forum in 2002. I then left my job. Then left my house for a small office. Then in 2006, hired my first employee. In 2007 I started to expand via SYSTEMS and PROCESS by reinvesting nearly all of my profits into staff
      and projects.

      I have been doing this for years.

      Imagine doubling your bet on every hand.

      1, 2, 4, 8 16, 32, 64, 128, 256....

      You are making huge money, but every next hand is a huge risk.

      Now, I am slowing down on the risk and letting things go and things have never been better.

      But if I can not automate it, and it does not scale, I will not touch it with a 10 foot pole.

      Here is what I do.

      Think of stuff
      So market research to see if it will sell and if it provides a need.
      Spec it out from function to design.
      Delegate
      Market

      The project will always have a focus on LIST BUILDING, VIRAL MARKETING, and VALUE MONETIZATION

      You have to see yourself as a CEO. The guy who makes the decisions and let talented people execute.

      It comes from growth and then reinvesting your profits.

      But I just wanted to let you know that I do not get my hands dirty with stuff that must get done like PPC and SEO.

      I always compare things to the AUTO BUSINESS. If I own the TOYOTA dealer, I am not going to change oil or sell the cars or so the books. But you can bet I will have onetime done every job or LEARNED every job so that I know how it gets done.

      Anyways, back to my projects.

      Talk soon!

      Mike
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      - Thanks
      Mike Filsaime

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      • Profile picture of the author George Wright
        Mike,

        Thanks for the peak into your business life story. Another download for me today.

        George Wright

        Originally Posted by mikefilsaime View Post

        Just for the record.

        I have 67 Employees in 7 companies. I can't speak for Eben or Frank. Although I know Eben has 80 employees. I do not do my own SEO. I do not do article Writing. And I do not do my own PPC etc.

        I pay my staff to do it.

        I am not typical however. So it would be best to have this discussion without relating it to me. I started out by myself and in this forum in 2002. I then left my job. Then left my house for a small office. Then in 2006, hired my first employee. In 2007 I started to expand via SYSTEMS and PROCESS by reinvesting nearly all of my profits into staff
        and projects.

        I have been doing this for years.

        Imagine doubling your bet on every hand.

        1, 2, 4, 8 16, 32, 64, 128, 256....

        You are making huge money, but every next hand is a huge risk.

        Now, I am slowing down on the risk and letting things go and things have never been better.

        But if I can not automate it, and it does not scale, I will not touch it with a 10 foot pole.

        Here is what I do.

        Think of stuff
        So market research to see if it will sell and if it provides a need.
        Spec it out from function to design.
        Delegate
        Market

        The project will always have a focus on LIST BUILDING, VIRAL MARKETING, and VALUE MONETIZATION

        You have to see yourself as a CEO. The guy who makes the decisions and let talented people execute.

        It comes from growth and then reinvesting your profits.

        But I just wanted to let you know that I do not get my hands dirty with stuff that must get done like PPC and SEO.

        I always compare things to the AUTO BUSINESS. If I own the TOYOTA dealer, I am not going to change oil or sell the cars or so the books. But you can bet I will have onetime done every job or LEARNED every job so that I know how it gets done.

        Anyways, back to my projects.

        Talk soon!

        Mike
        Signature
        "The first chapter sells the book; the last chapter sells the next book." Mickey Spillane
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  • Profile picture of the author ShaneRQR
    I agree that you can learn anything you need to know about IM for free, mainly in forums like this one. And it really is too bad when a newbie spends a ton of cash on get-rich-quick programs and never puts them to use.

    I do see one justification for such programs, though: They give you (or should give you) one system to follow and clear instructions on how to do so.

    When you are browsing forums, one person will swear on PPC, the next will say it's all about article marketing, a third will claim that you must focus more on SEO and another will say that all of the above is rubbish and what you really have to do is create products and build lists.
    So a good info-product that takes the user by the hand and teaches one working system step-by-step has it's merits, I believe.

    Not that I want to defend overhyped, crappy, underdelivering get-rich-quick programs. Far from it.
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  • Profile picture of the author bravo75
    Well, I can't see myself really getting outraged but I know what you mean. But some products are actually very good and encouraging for newbies. Especially membership sites like niche profit classroom and the likes. Well worth $67
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  • Profile picture of the author George Wright
    Hi,

    So let me get this straight. Don't buy anything just sell stuff to those who buy, right?

    George Wright
    Signature
    "The first chapter sells the book; the last chapter sells the next book." Mickey Spillane
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  • Profile picture of the author bravo75
    I don't see any problems with spending a few bob on quality learning materials. If you wanted to learn how to play the guitar, you would probably dish out a few books on some sort of learning material. The problem with all the free info on the net is that there are so many different techniques and you can get lost. With certain marketing courses the information is very focused step by step sort of stuff. How to build a website, how to drive traffic, what markets to pick, keywords etc. Sure you can pick up all these things for free, but if you buy a decent product, you will feel like you are in good hands and are actually making progress in your learning curve. Adam short, Frank kern, Markus Campbell etc. are defianetly quality teachers
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris Drinkwater
      I think this is one of the best 'newbie' threads I have read for a while. Logical and well thought out. In fact I'm going to nick bits of it ;-)
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    • Profile picture of the author mr2monster
      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      What am I missing here? Are you outraged at yourself?

      So you're saying that no one should buy the WSO in your signature for $67 because they could just as easily get that same information for free, right? And spend the $67 on traffic instead of your WSO?

      I guess I'd have to agree with you - and it was kind of you to sacrifice your WSO in the interest of letting us know that info products are an absolute waste of our money.

      Aside from my blatant sarcasm, I seriously doubt you're outraged at anything. You started this thread soley for the purpose of promoting your WSO, emphasizing your $67 pricepoint as a good one as opposed to the high-end products some of the top guns promote.

      Problem is, I'd rather spend $2K on something from John Reese, Frank Kern or Mike Filsaime any day, because they've proven they know what they're doing.

      I'd spend that $2k a hell of alot quicker than I would on a $67 info product from someone with no credibility, who ironically is against info products in the first place.


      What I got out of his original post was that newbies are buying things IRRELEVANT to their current business/level of business to help them out "down the road" rather than taking action.

      They're buying new methods, not foundations and principals. Methods do you no good (or at best only do you good short term) if you have no foundation or knowledge of theory.

      I don't think he was saying that all info products are crap. I could be wrong though... that was just my take.

      Also, re the sig file, I didn't even notice it so you could be onto something.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    I don't think the OP is trying to say nobody should buy or make infoproducts.

    I see the advice as being "look, you're not going to make any money buying these things, and you don't know what you need to buy until you know what your problems are."

    And with that in mind, the advice is good. Take your $67, and spend it on sending traffic to a page built by someone else selling a product provided by someone else, where you can collect a commission.

    So now, instead of having a $67 product about something you may not even need to know, you probably have your investment back with a small profit. Look at what you learned from that experience, and use it to decide what you really need to know next... so instead of spending that $67 on a shot in the dark, you take the profit from that $67 and spend it on something you have reason to believe can improve your results.

    Iterate across this a few times, and you can generate a pretty good profit, instead of just a hard drive full of ebooks. You'll still want ebooks, but honestly, just buying stuff at random isn't going to get you anywhere.

    Not that I'm jumping into PPC anytime soon. I suck at writing tiny ads. Don Lapre already taught me that.
    Signature
    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      I don't think the OP is trying to say nobody should buy or make infoproducts.
      Aha! Therein lies an important point. Before making a statement on WF, it pays to make sure the post properly communicates what the OP wants to communicate. As it stands, the message is a little muddled at the beginning.
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      Kevin Riley, long-time Warrior living in Osaka, Japan

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  • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
    Jesse,

    There's a BIG flaw in your proposal..
    So lets take that original $67. How much traffic can you send
    directly to an affiliate page for $67? (It IS possible to do this
    with Yahoo, by the way. I'm not sure why more people aren't
    doing it...)


    Let's put an average CPC at $.25. Not a bad figure, especially
    if you're just starting out. I wouldn't suggest spending any more
    than this amount per click for any newbie. You always need to
    test the waters first...

    At that rate, you'd be getting about 270 clicks. Not too shabby.

    Now lets take a typical affiliate program. Lets say you're
    promoting a typical information product that is $67... of which
    you're getting a 75% commission. This is pretty much standard
    as far as Clickbank goes.

    If the traffic you send only converts at a measly 1%, you'd be
    making around 3 sales after rounding up. Your 75% commission
    is giving you $50.25 per sale, making your total gain $150.75.
    That's an $83.75 profit!
    It's called cashflow.

    Sure, someone could spend $67 on Pay Per
    Click traffic (Assuming they knew how to set
    up and run a successful campaign). However,
    they would have to wait at least 2 weeks and
    more likely four weeks to get paid their $83.75
    by Clickbank.

    What are they supposed to do in the meantime?

    Assuming they re-invest their $83.75, and they
    generate 4 sales. They'd still have to wait yet
    another 2-4 weeks for their $117.25 commission.

    And, all this time, they are building someone
    else's customer list.

    I'd hate to see someone follow your "advice"
    and then becoming "outraged" when they find
    out how long it would take to make any real
    profit.

    John
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    John's Internet Marketing News, Views & Reviews: John Taylor Online
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
    Banned
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      This I aboslutely disagree with, because the context of his post is for beginners, who typically will not have a clue on where to get started and more often than not don't have the money or savvy to outsource right out of the gate.
      It's not about outsourcing, but affiliate marketing: find a product that already exists and has a sales page, drive traffic to it, and collect commissions.

      In other words, learn to drive traffic before you worry about anything else.

      I think that's the best damn advice ever. YMMV. But even if you can build the best products and design the coolest websites and write the best autoresponders, where are you without traffic?
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author mr2monster
      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post



      This I aboslutely disagree with, because the context of his post is for beginners, who typically will not have a clue on where to get started and more often than not don't have the money or savvy to outsource right out of the gate.

      <snip>
      I think what he's saying is that anyone can find the info to get started and on a semi-right track for free... so take your $67 bucks and make yourself some money with it using methods that you can find for free (here and plenty of other places). When you start turning a profit, you can then "invest" in your business by buying products that take you in a specific direction, not just blasting out there and buying some MMO package hoping that it tells you everything you need to know.

      I tend to agree with that statement. Learn all you can for free, invest in actionable items in your own business, make your business profit, then invest in learning more. Repeat.
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    You're right and you're wrong. To scale your business you need money. But to start if you have none to invest free methods can and do work to get you going.
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  • Profile picture of the author Memory C
    Hi

    Buying info products can be very productive if you are careful.If you do your own search online, a lot of things will turn up,some real,some not. You also have the task of sorting out all their information and putting it to use.

    Most info products narrow this information down and help you concentrate on implementing it. You can have the best information but if you do not implement it nothing will come of it. Sometimes you will have the barest information but if you implement it you will be more successful than someone who has tons of information that they are not doing anything about.

    Your time is valuable. Do not waste it searching. Just buy the information. It only takes a few minutes to buy and then use the rest of the time to put it into action.
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  • Profile picture of the author kemdev
    I think the overall meaning of my post was a little bit misunderstood...

    As a marketer who sells information products in a variety of niches, it
    would be ridiculous for me to somehow say that people shouldn't buy
    information products. That's not what I'm saying at all.

    What I'm saying is that new marketers will spend hundreds or even
    thousands of dollars on an education, when they refuse to spend any
    amount of money on traffic to promote affiliate programs.

    I mean, for the newcomer to online marketing, it's almost become
    taboo to spend money on traffic. Yet people spend money every
    single day on their education.

    I'm not saying the education isn't important; I'm in no way saying
    that at all. I'm simply asking why a newcomer to online marketing
    would spend so much on his or her education... yet spend so little
    on putting that education into action.

    Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

    I wouldn't knock this post at all, except for how it's tied directly to the OP's WSO. Especially the slick way he arrived at the $67 pricepoint for it and tried to make it credible in the context of products a newbie could promote.

    I'm the first person to always suggest to newcomers that they put away their wallets, use the time they have (which is usually greater than money at the beginning) and learn the basics. Once they've done that, they can then start making informed decisions about which info products might be suitable for them to pull them up to the next level.

    The other problem is that OP has so grossly oversimplified things that it sounds like a hamster with a PayPal account could start seeing commissions rolling in in no time.

    The OP is framing his comments from the perspective of someone who's been there and now knows how to do things fast and easy. That's great - and it's a mistake a lot of novice info product developers make. They assume that because they can do it, anyone using their product will be able to do it too. NOT!

    Suggesting that a newbie pay for traffic (presuming Adwords), is just downright negligent in my opinion. That does nothing but set them up for failure from the first step, because paid traffic takes time and effort to learn the ropes on and rarely does anyone actually become skilled at it on their own.
    First off, I completely resent the statement that my post was made out of promotion
    for my WSO. That's completely ridiculous to say, and is in no way true. How is any
    of my original post promoting my WSO? It just doesn't make much sense to me...

    Secondly. Again, I think you may have misconstrued my original post, as have quite
    a few others it seems.

    I'm not knocking information products. Nor am I knocking big time guys that sell those
    information products. No, not in the least.

    It's incredibly important for newcomers to have correct information. And sometimes,
    that information isn't something you come across without making a purchase. I do
    understand that.

    But the trend of marketers continuing to buy information products, learning the
    information... then buying more information products is a little bit outrageous. They
    will spend thousands on a good education, yet not one cent on sending traffic
    to an affiliate offer - the most basic of ways to make money online.

    That's all I'm saying.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
      Originally Posted by Jesse Kemmerer View Post

      What I'm saying is that new marketers will spend hundreds or even
      thousands of dollars on an education, when they refuse to spend any
      amount of money on traffic to promote affiliate programs.
      It's the way people are.

      People balk at spending $500 out of pocket to visit a doctor, buy medication that will save or prolong their lives, etc. But the same people will happily spend $1500 to buy nice chrome side running boards for their truck cause they "look cool".

      I can't figure it out, but there it is. Don't believe me, look at your own spending habits...

      A lot has to do with confidence too. I know when I was starting out I did not feel comfortable buying traffic (PPC, Ezine Ads, etc.) without knowing how to find the right deals, what kind of pricing I should look for, how to keyword research, how to bid, etc.

      To learn that, I bought info products.

      At the end of the day, along with being selective about what you spend your money on, people need to actually read and apply the knowledge they acquire. To me, that's the bigger problem - they buy on a promise of huge rewards, read the first chapter, find out there's work involved and then move on to the next dream.

      Laziness kills! And drains your bank account
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      • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
          Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

          But Mike...those chrome running boards are just bitch'in man

          Seriously, new comers don't have a clue on how spend money on traffic effectively and I continue to disagree that they should even try.

          I think the bigger problem is that once they start buying info products they lack either the discipline or self-confidence to say to themselves, "That's it - I'm expert enough on this topic for now" and then put it to work for them.
          Buying traffic isn't all cut and dried either. There's a huge difference between traffic and targeted traffic. The second one is a skill that needs decent training. Otherwise you're bound to lose way more than the info products purchased to learn how to do it correctly.

          I know - when I started with PPC, I was spending a lot on clicks with almost no results. But after I learned HOW to do certain things, like good keyword research, page optimization (even for PPC this is important if you want to reduce your CPC), how much you should bid to get the best placement for the least amount of $$...I could go on. When I learned, on one campaign I went from paying an average of 50 cents per click to an average of 9 cents per click. That became possible after buying a few products and learning and applying the techniques.

          And, I prefer motorcycles - but they can be expensive for all the extras too
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  • Profile picture of the author rwb24
    Interesting posts and views. Bottom line for me is that I have no problem paying for a product if it can increase a learning curve and is proven. Too many people get lost by not focusing and jump from product to product.
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  • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
    Jesse, I can appreciate the logic of what you are saying, but that's what makes it dangerous for the true newbie, the one who doesn't know what he doesn't know.

    Back in my mlm days, one of the things my group used to generate leads was ad co-ops using Adwords. We'd all throw some money in the pot, set up a campaign and point the clicks to a rotator script so each member got their share of clicks. The problem was, we had no clue about how to set up a decent campaign. So we ended up blowing through the money bidding on terms like 'make money online', 'start a business', etc.

    If I knew then what I know now, those co-ops would have been the pot at the end of the rainbow. Not only did I not know how to set up a proper campaign, I didn't know I was missing anything.

    As far as this statement:

    And even if you can do any of those jobs, you shouldn't have
    to. Businesses are creating by people who find a system. Do
    you think Mike Filsaime or Frank Kern or Eban Pagan do any of
    their own SEO or article writing or traffic generation or any of
    that stuff? No. They have people who work full time who
    spend their entire day perfecting and maintaining their craft.
    > Even if we accept the idea that the people you named don't do all of these tasks now, they did them at some point early in their careers, and could likely do them again if they had to.

    > Trying to outsource tasks where you don't at least have a glimmer of what you are hiring is asking to be cheated.

    > You rail against new folks buying a bunch of info products. I look at it more in the line of "outsourcing research", where I am paying someone else to find, filter and organize the information I'm seeking. And the products I buy now are a heck of a lot different than the ones I bought back in the beginning.

    Different people climb the learning curve at different rates, and some choose to be career students. I used to be in a study group that included a guy going for his third doctorate (all in unrelated fields). For all I know, he's still there working on his umpteenth degree and pumping gas to buy his Ramen...

    Does that outrage me? No. It's his life and he's (please excuse the racist overtones - no offense is intended) "free, white and over 21", as the saying goes.
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  • Profile picture of the author kemdev
    I think this entire thread has gone in a completely different direction than
    I had intended...

    People read my first post and immediately thought it was another thread
    bashing information products. It's not. If it weren't for the great information
    being sold out there today, I would have a job. That's not what I'm saying
    at all.

    Here's what I think is outrageous.

    Newcomers expecially, spend hundreds or thousands of dollars continuously
    without ever actually putting any money into their business. For one reason
    or another, it's perfectly acceptable for a newcomer to invest hundreds or
    thousands in their education, but when it comes to investing in their actual
    business...

    They refuse to. That's what is so mind-boggling to me.

    This doesn't have anything to do with me saying that information products
    are junk. Newcomers NEED good, quality information before they do
    anything online. I accept and believe that.

    What I don't understand is why so many newcomers continuously eat up
    new information - happily spending whatever they have - yet refuse to
    spend any type of money on getting their very own business off the
    ground.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Originally Posted by Jesse Kemmerer View Post


      Here's what I think is outrageous.

      Newcomers expecially, spend hundreds or thousands of dollars continuously
      without ever actually putting any money into their business. For one reason
      or another, it's perfectly acceptable for a newcomer to invest hundreds or
      thousands in their education, but when it comes to investing in their actual
      business...

      They refuse to. That's what is so mind-boggling to me.
      A lot of those folks aren't even investing in their education. They're buying a dream. And they have little if any intention of building a business. They may want to HAVE a business, but they aren't willing to BUILD a business.
      Signature
      "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
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  • Profile picture of the author Gringo
    Just like any bussiness it takes time and money. The good thing about internet marketing is imo you can do it on the cheap. However when you do this you will spend alot of hours but this is good time because you learn and improve from your mistakes. If you truely like what you are talking about it should not feel like work. You should feel good that your information is out there for the world to see and bottom line you are getting paid for your information.


    From day 1 of me learning and still learning I have not spent money on any of the get rich make 100/day things. I want to learn it on my own and have the ureka moment when I start making some good cash on the interent.

    Heck who does not want to make money while they are sleeping

    I would relate the main topic of this to payday loans

    You could use the same rationality why do people take those? It the easy way out or so they think. But in the long run all it does is make things worste in the long run.

    Go for the long haul slow and steady wins the race and you learn a few things in the process.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by Jesse Kemmerer View Post

      I think this entire thread has gone in a completely different direction than
      I had intended...

      People read my first post and immediately thought it was another thread
      bashing information products. It's not. If it weren't for the great information
      being sold out there today, I would have a job. That's not what I'm saying
      at all.

      Here's what I think is outrageous.

      Newcomers expecially, spend hundreds or thousands of dollars continuously
      without ever actually putting any money into their business. For one reason
      or another, it's perfectly acceptable for a newcomer to invest hundreds or
      thousands in their education, but when it comes to investing in their actual
      business...

      They refuse to. That's what is so mind-boggling to me.

      This doesn't have anything to do with me saying that information products
      are junk. Newcomers NEED good, quality information before they do
      anything online. I accept and believe that.

      What I don't understand is why so many newcomers continuously eat up
      new information - happily spending whatever they have - yet refuse to
      spend any type of money on getting their very own business off the
      ground.
      OK, I'll 'fess up. I did indeed misread your initial post, and the follow up I quoted. What I still don't get, though, is why YOU are so outraged.

      Going back to your original subject line, "how does this not outrage you", it's easy. It's a big old world, and people are pretty much free to choose their own path. If they choose to spend all their money on education and then waste their time grubbing for free tools, that's their privilege.

      And unless I have some kind of direct control over them, my getting worked up over it isn't going to do a damned thing except ruin my digestion. The expenditure of energy just doesn't carry an equivalent reward.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Faber
    Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post


    It's true, this information is available for free on the internet. But there you go.
    It's true, information is available for free, but action isn't, and that's where the rubber hits the road. Information with no action is just like 1,000,000 x 0; still zero.
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    After all, you're probably following a few hundred people already that aren't doing squat for you.....
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  • Profile picture of the author kemdev
    I'm not outraged at all. The question was more directed towards
    newcomers who continuously spend money on their education
    without ever putting a dime towards their business.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
    I'm "outraged" that you choose to selectively
    respond to the posts in this thread. I'd love
    to hear your answer to my question about
    cashflow.

    John
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    John's Internet Marketing News, Views & Reviews: John Taylor Online
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    • Profile picture of the author psresearch
      Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

      I'm "outraged" that you choose to selectively
      respond to the posts in this thread. I'd love
      to hear your answer to my question about
      cashflow.

      John
      A great point about CashFlow which obviously will differ based on a person's financial situation.

      However, the one thing that the OP definitely has right is that people need to think about what ELSE they could be doing with the money they are putting towards the products they are considering buying.
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  • Profile picture of the author mhendenterprises
    The single hardest thing I've found as a newbie is trying to find someone's whose information you trust enough to invest in, and this means time as well as money. It seems that for every person in the IM game there is a different "can't miss" process. A new marketeer can waste tons of time following bad advice and more by following none at all. I hoped to find some decent info by joining a reputable forum. I guess time will tell.
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  • Profile picture of the author kemdev
    Hey John,

    Sorry. Didn't mean to skip over you like that!

    You're absolutely right about cashflow. It's incredibly important for anyone
    that owns a business. But what about most of the newcomers that don't
    yet own their own businesses?

    What's better for them - earning bits and pieces here and there... or
    continuing to spend money on their education?

    And the $67 I used was just an example pulled out of the air. Most
    newcomers spend much, much more than that on their education
    without ever spending a dime on their business. What if the number
    was $1997?

    And once again... I'm not knocking information products or the
    education they give to newcomers or people who make their living
    off of Internet marketing. (For one reason or another, a lot of users
    seem to be getting extremely defensive... and a little bit hostile in
    their replies, thinking this is what I'm implying.)

    Newcomers spend hundreds on their education yet not one cent
    on their business.

    It's like going to college and paying thousands of dollars for a good
    degree. And once you're out of college and wanting to start your
    own business... not putting any money whatsoever into that
    business.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ellen Violette
    The first year I was online I didn't spend any money. I went to free teleseminars and soaked up as much information as I could. Then I reached a point where I knew I was going to have to spend some money to get the knowledge I needed to get to the next level. You can learn the hard painful way, or not reinvent the wheel and learn from those who have done what you want to do.

    I built a 6-figure income in 2 1/2 years and got 99% of my traffic at zero cost because I was more comfortable writing my way to sucess than using software and ppc. Plus there was zero cost!

    So you too can build it without spending money on traffic. Free ebooks, articles, blogss, jv's, twitter, facebook, creating videos once you have the camera, they are all free! And I'm sure there are other free ways I haven't even mentioned!

    But I could never have done it ultimately without purchasing information products.
    So I have to respectfully disagree.

    I say find someone who's business model is what you want and model it with your own unique ideas and add your own personality. Figure out what makes you special in a market that you are passionate about, and skilled at where you have something to offer.

    See which experts you resonate with by going to their free calls and reading their newsletters and emails, and only buy products that teach you what you want to learn at the moment and don't jump from product to product.

    Learn to do one or two things well that can make you money. Then add more as you go, and as you can outsource what you don't want to do yourself so you don't get overwhelmed. And don't give up!
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    The eBook Coach
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    Turn your message into money! I'll show you how to create, communicate, connect, and convert subscribers into lifetime buyers to build a 6- or 7- figure business.
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  • Profile picture of the author kemdev
    Hey Mike,

    Cool of you to drop by and give us some insight!

    I think newcomers need to realize that they need to make their first sale
    before they can ever make their first one hundred. It's all about building
    up to the point where you can AFFORD to hire other experts to do the
    work for you.
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  • Profile picture of the author freudianslip27
    I think that one problem is that newbies will spend $67 on the next big thing, and then not expect to spend more money in that same venture.

    When I look back at my beginnings, I went from product to product, racking up a ton of purchases that made me NO money. You are totally right about how people should be thrilled if you could invest say $100 in PPC to even make $125. Where else can you get a 125 percent return on your money?

    It takes money to make money, that's the way of the world. Compare IM to other more traditional businesses. How expensive would it be to open up a retail store, for example. It takes money...and guts.

    Matt
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    WarriorForum Rules!

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  • Profile picture of the author kennethtang
    I don't know why people spend/waste their money on medicals/doctors/checks/etc and on all those fitness center memberships, yoga classes, exercise programs/equipment/etc

    All ANYONE who needs to get fit needs to do is to get a heavybag- those use by REAL boxers - none of those namby-pamby so-called martial arts gurus - (or a good, sturdy banana tree) and give it a good whack everyday, full-force.

    It sure will get you fit in a jiffy, dang the doctors.

    Kenneth

    Ps. However, I do feel I can sense where the OP is coming from. Everyone in this thread (me included, going by my first reactions) need to learn the art of extraction - extracting the gold in any information that at first reading seems to rile us up and bring forth the bile of outraged fury. There are some good points in this thread. Now go get your own banana tree
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Bartlett
    I think limiting belief really has an impact on the results you see, unfortunately if a newbie buys something and expects immediate easy results, the limiting belief kicks in when they dont see that and they are then unlikely to continue.

    You see alot of people also put others on a pedestal above them to "explain" the success that those people have vs the success they dont have. This creates a false sense of, "they have some easy step up I didnt have so therefore I cant succeed" and again, it limits their ability to actually succeed with the information they have.

    I think so MANY people lose sight of an important fact when they talk or think about someone like Mike Filsaime.

    I know for me, I have followed him for years, right back from when I first started my business, infact, before I started it I was checking out stuff he did and subscribed to a list of his. (That would be around 2004/early 2005)

    A couple of his products have given me great "ah-ha" moments which have made a big difference to by business and through that.. my life.

    The thing is, everyone talks about people like Mike Filsaime, Frank Kern and others as guru's, they talk about what they can do because of their name that we cant do, how it is easy for the guru's etc. You have to remember, all of these people started out exactly like we all did, when their name didnt mean anything.

    They worked up from setting up their first site, working out what an opt in form was and selling their first ever digital product and just built up using effective business techniques to scale the results they saw into much bigger results.

    As Mike himself said above,

    "I started out by myself and in this forum in 2002. I then left my job."

    THAT should be a HUGE motivator to anyone who is now browsing this forum wondering if they can achieve success. He started out in this very forum just like all of us and built what he has now.

    I was speaking to someone recently who said I was lucky because of certain results I am seeing in my business and I turned around straight away and said that luck has nothing to do with it.

    I love the famous quote from Arnold Schwarzenegger (love him or hate him, the quote is great) He said "luck has nothing to do with it" when someone mentioned how lucky he was to have won all the titles he had etc.. (Anyone who has ever been to a gym knows you dont get a body-building physique like that by being lucky. Its HARD work.)

    I think too many people put "guru's" on a pedestal and say, "its easy for them".

    What they forget is that they built up from nothing with hard work and then learning from mistakes and tweaking their business to become better as a result just like everyone else.

    Getting back to the original point, there are alot of people wanting a quick fix without the work and unfortunately that just doesnt exist.

    Its the lottery mindset.. "Hopefully one day I will buy a product which gives me everything I need to get rich." As we know, that isn't how it works.

    Alot of these products DO have the ability to change someones way of thinking however and let them benefit from the lessons someone else has learnt through years of trial and error, hard work and picking themselves up from mistakes..

    And that can easily have a knock on effect to change their entire life and business.

    I actually think that despite the bad name it sometimes gets, the IM industry has probably some of the most valuable information given away for the least cost anywhere.

    Unfortunately so many people stop at the first road block, walk back the way they came and start again in a different direction with a different product without instead making the effort to work out how to remove/get around the road block and move forwards.
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    Oh now, "overpriced information" isn't going to win you any fans around these parts.

    Around here, a sloppy, poorly written, typo-filled piece of crap PDF that barely passes for 4th grade reading level starts at $27.

    All the while we can download genuine thought leadership from people like Seth Godin, Malcom Gladwell, et al for less than $10.
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  • Profile picture of the author IM Starter
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    • Profile picture of the author richdirtygirl
      So Jesse... let me see if I follow you... you know, blonde girl...

      your point is: why buy so much instead of going out there and just do it? :confused:

      mmmm I have seen a lot of people worried about the apparent paralysis in newbies that buy and don't take action... specially when the refunds start...

      the most used reason is: mindset, blockers, etc...

      i.e. the blame is never on the products...

      in fact, we have spent some time actually monitoring this... and this is what we found:

      1. most products are not complete. Even the expensive ones. They don't tell you the whole story. You see? a product is like being a hike guide, you tell the guy/gal follow this path, watch your step, this is the equipment you need... you need to give all the info to walk that particular path, and most just don't.

      2. the sales letters are designed to catch as many fishes as possible, so they don't clarify who is going to really take advantage of the offer. Specially in terms of the level in the game. There are a few exceptions, of course...

      3. People who get into IM can be roughly classified into 3 groups, according to their mindset. Most products are designed only for one of those groups. So 2/3 of the newbies are out of place right off the bat.

      So... about that wso...

      Laura :p
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  • Profile picture of the author Laura B
    I guess it depends on how you define "newbie." The newbies I know and teach are what I call "extreme newbies" because they don't have a clue how to even begin. Yes, it's all free on the web, but when you don't understand the terminology being used, or the instruction assumes you already have a site or know how to build one, it's not much help. What good is free if you can't understand it?

    Plus, as someone brought out upthread, it's tough for a beginner to tell good info from bad info. I had to research affiliate marketing for a full year before I was able to sift, gather, and assimilate the overwhelming amount of info out there, and of course, I still only saw probably 1/100th of a percent of it.

    Learning on your own is definitely cheaper in the short run, but I think if a person buys a course that suits his current knowledge level, learns what he needs to know more quickly, and then is up and running making money sooner, than really he's money ahead in the end. JMO.
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    • Profile picture of the author psresearch
      Originally Posted by Laura B View Post

      I guess it depends on how you define "newbie." The newbies I know and teach are what I call "extreme newbies" because they don't have a clue how to even begin. Yes, it's all free on the web, but when you don't understand the terminology being used, or the instruction assumes you already have a site or know how to build one, it's not much help. What good is free if you can't understand it?

      Plus, as someone brought out upthread, it's tough for a beginner to tell good info from bad info. I had to research affiliate marketing for a full year before I was able to sift, gather, and assimilate the overwhelming amount of info out there, and of course, I still only saw probably 1/100th of a percent of it.

      Learning on your own is definitely cheaper in the short run, but I think if a person buys a course that suits his current knowledge level, learns what he needs to know more quickly, and then is up and running making money sooner, than really he's money ahead in the end. JMO.
      I love the distinction between "newbies" and "extreme newbies". It's amazing how many products I review that claim to be "newbie friendly" that would confuse the heck out of people I talk with every day.
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      • Profile picture of the author Hesaidblissfully
        What I got from the OP is that newbies have to treat their online business like a business, not just a way to make money.

        How many threads do we get every week from people asking "How can I make money online?" or "What's the fastest/best/easiest way to make money online?"

        Newbies come into this focused on making money, not starting and running a legitmate business (Can you blame them when so many products in this niche are advertised as easy ways to make lots of money?). So you really can't be surprised when they don't act very businesslike in the way they go about things.

        When you're focused on "how to make money as quickly and easily as possible", you're easy prey for any offer that says it can give you that outcome, hence they end up purchasing one method after another. It's not even like they're PLANNING to spend $2,000 on info products. It just sort of...happens, because they keep chasing the magic pill that's going to suddenly fix all their money problems.

        Anyway, I think it's just a phase that lots of newbies go through. I'm not sure if hearing that they shouldn't do it even makes a difference until they're actually ready to hear it. In the end, anyone who's serious realizes that they're not making progress and re-evaluates what they're doing and realizes that success comes from implementing what they learn, not just buying more stuff.
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