45 years in business, and NO sales. What am I doing wrong?

65 replies
With sadness and tongue in cheek.

I went to an opportunity meeting 45 years ago. Bought a starter kit, contacted all my relatives, neighbors, friends and anyone who came within 3 feet (as I was told to do).

I only needed to find TWO winners, only two people who would take the ball and run with it and I could cash in on easy street. We had a product that EVERYONE uses. Laundry soap. And we had supplements too, vitamins.

I worked the PLAN. I followed the directions. I did what Jody Victor, my mentor told me to do. I never made a dime.

As far as I know, I'm still on the books, somebody's dead downline. Others have gotten rich, and it wasn't because of lack of effort, it seems I alienated everyone I knew.

I could sell ice to North Alaskans, sand to those living in Palm Springs, but I couldn't sell soap or vitamins to the dirtiest and most malnourished people in the world. What was I doing wrong.

I was told, it wasn't about selling PRODUCTS, but it was all about selling the opportunity.
And I dragged dozens of people to meetings.

All this struggle and frustration reminds of me of those of you that bought into the easy INTERNET MARKETING, suitcase/briefcase, beach house lifestyle opportunity.

So, this is for all of you who are frustrated and looking for a real opportunity, something withj a 50+ year track of record of success. All you have to do is just tell others about the opportunity and let the magic happen.

I haven't given up, after all that is the mantra of many gurus in the Mind Warrior forum, NEVER QUIT, right?

So, if you've been at if 3,5, 7, eight, nine or ten years or more...do not despair, do not quit. Just meet me on Zoom or somewhere, and give me a few minutes, I'll draw some circles on my board, and you can get a starter's kit if you want. Fair enough?

Now truthfully, if you have even one year without making any money, QUIT saying you have a business.

QUIT saying you know how to do a capture page, or write a sales page because clearly YOU DO NOT.

You don't have a business. But don't give up, one of these days, me and my SA8 and Vits mins are a goin to strike it rich.

GordonJ

PS Best advice. Get free business plan software and fill in the blanks, start with a clear idea of what you want and what you will do to get there, and quit fooling yourself thinking you have a business when all you do is spend money...that only worked for Bezos. AH, but there it is, your hope.
#business #sales #wrong #years
Avatar of Unregistered
  • Profile picture of the author DABK
    Most people I meet who want to start a business do not seem to have spent enough time figuring out how they will get customers.

    Oh, I'll do SEO. Or facebook ads, or solo ads, they say. But they do not know what's involved in that.

    Talk to two people recently who do facebook ads.

    They both have prospects fill out a form, then contact them.

    One contacts his leads 31 times (texts, email and phones) over 2 months. He can show you at any given time, how many times he's contacted the lead via each method.

    The other one is sure he's contacting his leads at least 10 times (autoresponder has 6 email message and he's sure he calls them at least 4 times before he gives up).

    Cannot tell you where he is with each lead.

    Guess which one makes sales like clockwork?

    By the way, the 2nd guy is bright... just disorganized and not aware of how many times he needs to contact his leads to convert. He, by the way, is happy with the random sale... (He, like the other guy, are in the mortgage business... One sale brings in between $1000 and $10,000... on average $4400 for the 2nd, 6200 for the first).

    He is happy because he ends up making a few dollars more a month than at the last job he had. And times are busy... When the extra busy times in the mortgage industry go down, which they will do, he won't be so happy. Might even have to close shop.

    By the way, he contacts 6 times because he's read somewhere that, on average, people buy on the 6th contact...

    Hope he accepts soon that it is better to do more than average and count on averages.

    Thanks for the post. I enjoyed reading it.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11624334].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    I recommend Steve Blank's customer development plan. Founders have an idea, and the first thing that must be done is to prove whether that idea is a delusion or real.

    What I linked to is the simple version. You can google and find more, including a free video series of short, zippy explanations of what to do next.

    But I'll say this: I've been in this forum for nine years. I see the same problems today as I did then. People thinking some magic bullet Conversion tool is "a business"... instead of one part of a business, and one that might not work for you.

    EDIT: I know GordonJ is a longtime contributor to the forum and that his post is with just a sprinkle of sarcasm. My response wasn't aimed at him, but rather at the struggler attracted by the headline and reading this thread.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11624342].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author praetserge
    Give up and get a job?
    I know it might sound harsh but we all have to face the reality.
    Signature
    PREMIUM WP THEMES AND PLUGINS - Download unlimited WordPress & Shopify downloads. All downloads are 100% original and can be used on unlimited websites.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11624577].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author extrememan
      Originally Posted by praetserge View Post

      Give up and get a job?
      I know it might sound harsh but we all have to face the reality.
      You should NEVER say give up and get a job. What you should be doing is encouraging people to chase for their dreams.

      Winners never quit and quitters never win.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11631339].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author socialentry
        Originally Posted by extrememan View Post

        You should NEVER say give up and get a job. What you should be doing is encouraging people to chase for their dreams.




        Winners never quit and quitters never win.


        but wat if ur a paraplegic and u want to become a world champion in kickboxing
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11631340].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author DABK
          You unparaplegize yourself, duh! C'mon man, be resourceful and luck will happen!



          Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

          but wat if ur a paraplegic and u want to become a world champion in kickboxing
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11631342].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author savidge4
          Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

          but wat if ur a paraplegic and u want to become a world champion in kickboxing
          Have you googled " paraplegic kick boxing " uh sorry to inform you... its a thing LOL

          But seriously to the whole give up and get a Job... anyone that knows me knows I have no problem calling a spade a spade and calling out that someone needs to get a job. There is a point in many a persons life that reality and "The Dream" collide... toss in a dose of Accountability and hey, rent and electric and water bills need to be paid...
          Signature
          Success is an ACT not an idea
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11631771].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
        Originally Posted by extrememan View Post

        ..quitters never win.
        What if they entered a quitting contest?
        Signature
        TOP TIP: To browse the forum like a Pro, select "View Classic" from the drop-down menu under your user name.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11631350].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
    After 45 years (which is impressive) are you a Millionaire?
    Just asking.
    : )

    P.S.
    It's just that for a Person determined enough, it could take them between 1 - 3 years to reach that level.
    Signature
    "Each problem has hidden in it an opportunity so powerful that it literally dwarfs the problem. The greatest success stories were created by people who recognized a problem and turned it into an opportunity."―Joseph Sugarman
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11624586].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Odahh
      Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

      After 45 years (which is impressive) are you a Millionaire?
      Just asking.
      : )

      P.S.
      It's just that for a Person determined enough, it could take them between 1 - 3 years to reach that level.
      why does it have to be about becoming a millionaire .. or getting rich ..in any case ..the IRS does not consider a hobby a business until it is actually generating profits ..so most people who fail where never actually in business or entrepreneurs .. they where people with a internet marketing hobby ..

      if a guy can build an online remote income of 3,000-5,000 a month when we are in non covid times ..with a passport .. there are many other countries he can move to and rents very nice apartment for under 1000 a month ..and get the interests of attractive women who what to marry him and have his babies .
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11624894].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
        Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

        why does it have to be about becoming a millionaire .. or getting rich .
        Good question. : ) Considering this is an Internet Marketing Forum where many people are (as Allen Says put it) audacious enough to hit the $1,000,000 mark with their Website/Business ... Then surely it would be comforting to know that OP has reached that level. Or was it just 45 years of studying/not taking action?
        Signature
        "Each problem has hidden in it an opportunity so powerful that it literally dwarfs the problem. The greatest success stories were created by people who recognized a problem and turned it into an opportunity."―Joseph Sugarman
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11625038].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Odahh
          Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

          Good question. : ) Considering this is an Internet Marketing Forum where many people are (as Allen Says put it) audacious enough to hit the $1,000,000 mark with their Website/Business ... Then surely it would be comforting to know that OP has reached that level. Or was it just 45 years of studying/not taking action?
          the op is Gordon J ..i believe he has a tool box full of ways he can make money he has learned over the last 45 years ..as he has mentioned some of them in other posts..


          read enough posts by someone you learn a few things about them especially when they are writing a little satire ..when they have good writing skills ..

          but i also learn when people have no idea what they read ..and i think i will save my self the waste of time trying to explain ..

          in any case have you seen anyone in the time you have been on the number 1 forums for digital marketing ..claim togo from their minimum wage job with no experien in sales marketing or idea ho to register a website claim to build a million dollar a year business in 1-3 years in the self publishing/IM space

          the 1 in 300 or more people who do build business and bother to mention figure after a few years are usually talking about 10,000-15,000 ..a month

          which is great money ..
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11625075].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author hon2020
    I worked the PLAN. I followed the directions. I did what Jody Victor, my mentor told me to do. I never made a dime.
    Not to be rude but this post reminded me of something.

    About 10 years ago, around the time I started to use warriorforum, I had a friend who's around 55 and had a master degree in business. His business was to teach people how to succeed in business. One of his most important teachings was "have your business plan, or it will be the biggest reason you fail". He sounded like making money was like printing money yourself, and the amount of money you were going to make depended on your plan: how much and when you plan to print. Two years later, he's penniless.

    He didn't know most of small businesses were like fishermen who couldn't afford satellite tracking but had to go out to the sea without knowing where the preys (money) were. The reality is more like "getting ready + seeking lucks".
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11624814].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author spartan14
    i am not sure if i understand but if it pass 45 years without making a sale then its hard for me to think that .I will be sincere with you quit and find a real job this its not for you
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11625029].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author freedompath23
    I think your point with this post is that if you are just struggling paying for courses and systems and can't make S#*$ no matter what you try that you can give them a helping hand and point them in the right direction because you feel for them and you have a lot of experience. I think that is cool that you are willing to do that. Props to you. Thankfully I have had that breakthrough and am doing great online. If I was stuck I would of definitely reached out. I recommend anybody in that position to take you up on that offer because it took me running into the right person to change everything for me.
    Signature
    Complete_100% DONE FOR YOU_ System.
    Discover how this works here ==> CLICK HERE
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11625171].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author webbie
    GordonJ is an OG in internet marketing... an institution on SowPub and one of the greats in this space.

    His Chattel Report is a classic...

    His lesson here is worth noting, especially for everyone who believes 'being in business' is about 'doing, doing doing' and never making a sale. You gotta think about that, and why, and fix the problem.

    My take-away was, "Maybe your focus should be on selling what people want to buy... and not what you got to sell and shoving it down people's throats..."

    But as Gordon says, his post was a bit "tongue in cheek"... but there's a critical lesson there too.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11625254].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
      Originally Posted by webbie View Post

      GordonJ is an OG in internet marketing... an institution on SowPub and one of the greats in this space.
      Never heard of him.
      Signature
      "Each problem has hidden in it an opportunity so powerful that it literally dwarfs the problem. The greatest success stories were created by people who recognized a problem and turned it into an opportunity."―Joseph Sugarman
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11625285].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author DABK
        Yet you responded countless times to his posts. Thanked him many times, too!





        Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

        Never heard of him.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11631905].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
          Originally Posted by DABK View Post

          Yet you responded countless times to his posts. Thanked him many times, too!
          Lol Good point, I guess. Although he posts good advice here in Warriors ... I still don't know who he is.

          Oh well. : )
          Signature
          "Each problem has hidden in it an opportunity so powerful that it literally dwarfs the problem. The greatest success stories were created by people who recognized a problem and turned it into an opportunity."―Joseph Sugarman
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11631907].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
            Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

            Lol Good point, I guess. Although he posts good advice here in Warriors ... I still don't know who he is.
            Whereas Tony Robbins pops round for tea every Sunday.
            Signature
            TOP TIP: To browse the forum like a Pro, select "View Classic" from the drop-down menu under your user name.

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11631910].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
              Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

              Whereas Tony Robbins pops round for tea every Sunday.
              Who's that?
              : P
              Signature
              "Each problem has hidden in it an opportunity so powerful that it literally dwarfs the problem. The greatest success stories were created by people who recognized a problem and turned it into an opportunity."―Joseph Sugarman
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11631912].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
            Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

            Lol Good point, I guess. Although he posts good advice here in Warriors ... I still don't know who he is.

            Oh well. : )
            Thanks. Although, good, bad, mediocre, are all subjective JUDGMENTS and my shield rejects the double sided sword of criticism or praise. As my title headline suggests...

            I reserve the right to post BAD advice, to drag red herrings across the fields of the forums, to float distraction trial balloons into the air and to run pants, flags and even Princess Balestra's pantyhose up the pole to see if anyone salutes.

            Just one of a million guys here, one posting to a free, public forum, with advice, opinion and even bias all the while not even caring if it gets read or not. Just one side of me, now, at least you know that, eh?

            GordonJ

            PS Even good advice, not taken, not acted upon, with no action taken are just words, which quickly dissipate into the ether where wannabees project their futures, which seldom arrive.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11631921].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author hardworker2013
    Wow! You must be doing something wrong. maybe sales is just not for you. Time for a career change!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11625271].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Loob Player
    You need to audit your site first fully that where you are doing wrong then check your competitors you will see everything and also check which product you are selling first check trend then make more effect
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11625314].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Skip Rozier
    Gordon knows what he's talking about! Track down his "Before You Buy Anything" report. This is solid gold info... 20yrs later it's still valid.

    Remote Influence (Hypnosis) changed the way I looked at marketing forever. It focused on the one thing people seem to miss... It ain't about "stuff" it's about people.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11627027].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
      Originally Posted by Skip Rozier View Post

      Gordon knows what he's talking about! Track down his "Before You Buy Anything" report. This is solid gold info... 20yrs later it's still valid.

      Remote Influence (Hypnosis) changed the way I looked at marketing forever. It focused on the one thing people seem to miss... It ain't about "stuff" it's about people.
      Just making a query here, have nothing to sell.

      Those are pretty, pretty, pretty (in my best Larry David voice), pretty old reports. I think some things have changed, and I'm willing to share updates for those and my other 75 reports, since Covid has knocked us all for a loop.

      Do you have questions re: either of those, which may benefit THIS group of Warriors, and if so, then I'd be glad to answer them here, OK?

      GordonJ
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11627053].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
        Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

        Just making a query here, have nothing to sell.

        Those are pretty, pretty, pretty (in my best Larry David voice), pretty old reports. I think some things have changed, and I'm willing to share updates for those and my other 75 reports, since Covid has knocked us all for a loop.

        Do you have questions re: either of those, which may benefit THIS group of Warriors, and if so, then I'd be glad to answer them here, OK?

        GordonJ
        In the reports Skip mentioned, both of which were written 18 and 22 years ago, there were two concepts some current Warriors could benefit from.

        First, THE PARADE OF LIFE and the Sprint to Freedom. A) Parade of life, simply states that people take a journey from cradle to casket, from birth to death and along the way have several UNIVERSAL experiences. These represent EVERGREEN markets and niches. A friend just had a baby, he is now thinking, buying and doing his day much different from one year ago.

        As his kid grows, he will pass by many things, like school supplies, extra curricular activities, teen drama, etc., etc. and if his family expands even more, he may need additional income.

        Here at the WF, we oldies, sometimes forget how new and shiny all this IM stuff is to you youngsters and because we have answered any given question 1001 times, we may get a bit crusty with one more answer.

        But today, at the WF, there are tens of thousands of people who never heard of Allen Says or Paul Myers, or any of those early gurus. We forget that.

        The takeaway for you is: consider EVERGREEN products which can be sold to an ever moving parade of people passing by your little shop on the corner. Along with this, B) the Sprint to Freedom was a 12 week progressive PLAN OF ACTION to reinvest your profits to make even more, up to the point the original 50 bux becomes 1000 dollars recurring...as long as the activity keeps going.

        SECOND. Know your market, your niche and their PRIMARY and SECONDARY PREOCCUPATIONS.

        People are preoccupied at the surface, day to day level, and at the surface/subconscious level of what their life is about or NOT ABOUT and the changes they desire.

        Copywriters try to enter the conversation taking place in their avatars head, although most are woefully ill-equipped to do so, they lack the knowledge of the preoccupations and how to interrupt them.

        How can you use these OLD ideas in today's IM world?

        Sell something to an EVERGREEN market.
        KNOW what and WHEN they are preoccupied with.

        Set up easy to respond to offers, which has both top of mind and deeper life attention.

        INTERRUPT them with relevancy, resonation and empathy.

        It worked 40 years ago, 20 years ago, and YESTERDAY and will work tomorrow too.

        GordonJ
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11627286].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author lastreporter
    I am going to approach this is a straight forward manner, as I have experienced it.

    Don't follow someone else's business plan; develop your own.

    Simple: What goods or services can you produce or offer that offer real value -- and people want?

    Now that is the first step. For me it was writing and art. But that was just the beginning. I had to hone these skills and products into niches people wanted to buy.

    I many cases, my skills and products were not in demand! Wow. Back to the drawing board.

    So, I researched, experimented and produced products and services and began to make a few sales. But my ROI was low because the competition was ravaging. That is another ever-changing factor in this mix.

    Creating a business is no easy task, and there are thousands who will take your money promising you a secret path. Do not believe them or waste your time and money.

    To Thyself be true!

    You can only have a successful business if you have the skills or products someone wants to purchase at a price that produces a reasonable profit or ROI. It is quite possible, but not easy, unless you are born with such talents or skills.

    You must take a serious inventory of yourself, alone. Be honest. Find your product and service and build on it, after must work and study. You must offer real value to customers who want or need what you offer at the price you are offering it.
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11627034].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Bhavitra Hostbd
    [DELETED]
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11627183].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Maria moni
    Now a days, every business needs on attractive social media platforms essence. So should be update social media platforms by eye catchy post design, setup ads campaign, boosting.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11627894].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author tomkos1234xx
    Face the reality. You just don't have that something. To be on the top in this game you need to Provide stunning quality of yourself. It's hard today..everyone needs quick money. And you need just pure talent for selling.
    Signature

    The Best Quality SEO Service For All Kinds Of Web developers and App creators. Give us chance on http://seoreapers.com/

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11627950].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author W.P. Allen
    Learn copywriting.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11631321].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author savidge4
    Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

    PS Best advice. Get free business plan software and fill in the blanks, start with a clear idea of what you want and what you will do to get there, and quit fooling yourself thinking you have a business when all you do is spend money...that only worked for Bezos. AH, but there it is, your hope.
    For a bit more than the sake of discussion I am going to disagree with this. Starting with a business plan ( in my opinion ) is flat out failure waiting to happen. BUT, I will turn right back around and say a business plan is indeed a good idea... just not a starting point.

    In order for a business plan to work, you need data. If a business plan is a starting point, the data would then be "Subjective". Subjective numbers that support a desire 99.9% of the time will result in failure.

    I would then suggest that focusing on a personal need.. and going out and determining the demand from others from your own personal need starts transitioning "Subjective" into "Objective". All of the sudden there is an amount of data.

    A personal example... my son wanted a rabbit and we ( wife actually ) got him a rabbit. Rabbits like a diet of pellets and fresh greens. Rabbits happen to eat more fresh greens in a week than you can imagine. I built an inexpensive hydroponic setup in my back yard to produce greens.

    Like many things in my life I over produced, and understood if I needed greens than others might too... I went out and found demand for fresh greens. I was able to turn a profit out of my over production and wasn't wasting perfectly good greens.

    It was about at that point that I had a product, understood the need, and had a better than good idea of demand and a business plan came into play. I at this point had hard numbers. I understood what and how much a "client" may purchase. I understood what was needed to scale my pvc hydroponic setup into something a bit more industrial.

    The whole business was predicated and birthed out of personal need. Nothing more... nothing less.

    There is a better than huge difference between "starting a business" and "starting a business that fills a need in a market space". and getting a grasp on that difference is the absolute separation of failure and success.
    Signature
    Success is an ACT not an idea
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11631777].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author DABK
      Still just for the sake of the argument: your business plan can call for you to first and foremost to focus on a personal need and go out there and determine the need.


      Or you could go into a business where you know there is a need, you just don't know if there is enough for you to succeed. Say, selling wedding dresses. And your business plan calls for you to survey your area, see how many wedding dress shops there are, what they sell, and if they cover everything... for you to go to churches and floral shops and coffee shops, and wedding planners and collect info on what they want... For you to talk to recently wed women and ask them about their dress-buying experiences.


      Is it just me who thinks that a good business plan calls for collecting a lot of data about wants and needs and competition before you do anything else?


      Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

      For a bit more than the sake of discussion I am going to disagree with this. Starting with a business plan ( in my opinion ) is flat out failure waiting to happen. BUT, I will turn right back around and say a business plan is indeed a good idea... just not a starting point.

      In order for a business plan to work, you need data. If a business plan is a starting point, the data would then be "Subjective". Subjective numbers that support a desire 99.9% of the time will result in failure.

      I would then suggest that focusing on a personal need.. and going out and determining the demand from others from your own personal need starts transitioning "Subjective" into "Objective". All of the sudden there is an amount of data.

      A personal example... my son wanted a rabbit and we ( wife actually ) got him a rabbit. Rabbits like a diet of pellets and fresh greens. Rabbits happen to eat more fresh greens in a week than you can imagine. I built an inexpensive hydroponic setup in my back yard to produce greens.

      Like many things in my life I over produced, and understood if I needed greens than others might too... I went out and found demand for fresh greens. I was able to turn a profit out of my over production and wasn't wasting perfectly good greens.

      It was about at that point that I had a product, understood the need, and had a better than good idea of demand and a business plan came into play. I at this point had hard numbers. I understood what and how much a "client" may purchase. I understood what was needed to scale my pvc hydroponic setup into something a bit more industrial.

      The whole business was predicated and birthed out of personal need. Nothing more... nothing less.

      There is a better than huge difference between "starting a business" and "starting a business that fills a need in a market space". and getting a grasp on that difference is the absolute separation of failure and success.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11631906].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author savidge4
        Originally Posted by DABK View Post

        Is it just me who thinks that a good business plan calls for collecting a lot of data about wants and needs and competition before you do anything else?
        This is a loaded question... And unfortunately the answer is YES you are the only one. if we look at a quality example of a business plan ( https://www.sba.gov/business-guide/p...-business-plan *** about half way down there are 2 examples *** ) You will see the level of competition and what they are doing is covered, but wants, needs and demand are NOT.

        So when you get into the aspect of a business plan that is going to project sales your better than average person will be making subjective guess' at best.

        When I started my hydroponics business, I grew to much. I was looking to offer my leftovers and help out a friend. I quickly realized the potential, and then determined on his and a couple of other business' I contacted how much a customer was worth.

        You can start making valid projections objectively from that point. Going out and looking at your competition will do nothing to understand YOUR bottom line.

        Another personal example. I got into vinyl lettering etc because I was paying $300 per truck to get them lettered up and on a whim I looked and the machine and the vinyl was $300 and at that point I needed to do 3 vehicles. At the get go I was ahead of the game, and that was a no brainer business avenue to get into.

        Yet another... Large Format Printing... I was paying $200 a print for photographs and doing between 5 and 10 per month. the 1st printer I got was $3000... I had the machine paid off in the first week of ownership ( from going out and selling the service ), and over the years that has turned into a 7 digit a year aspect of my business.

        Maybe its me that is the oddball.

        I just would not sit down and say "hmm I need to start a business.. what should I do? Oh, open a wedding dress shop sounds like a good idea!" I don't have a freakin clue about wedding dress'. and If I were to put together a business plan for said shop, and execute... it would fail, and if through sheer tenacity it didn't fail, it would not be an easy path.

        We have been around this forum long enough to read "I have no skills and no money what business should I start". The answer every time needs to be NONE and get a job LOL
        Signature
        Success is an ACT not an idea
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11631929].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author DABK
          See, for me, open a wedding dress sounds like a good idea because I noticed the following:
          In my area, there is high end and David's Bridal and no good store in-between.

          There are stores that offer dresses in the 1500-2500 range but they treat their customers like they are low end.

          So, a prebusiness plan seemed to be in order:

          It involved finding out how much a dress that sells for 2k costs a store;

          Do all the 1500-2500 stores treat their brides like they are low end brides
          How much space do you need and how much does it cost
          How much does it cost to treat these brides like they were spending 7k and up per dress
          Why do so many of the dresses available look so alike

          Turns out, it costs 400 to get a dress that sells for 2000
          The dresses in the area do look alike and miss a large swath of the population: 1st and 2nd generation Eastern Europeans, Armenians, Assyrians: they want but do not find a slight difference ( which designers from Ukraine and Spain cover).
          Most stores around have 6000 sq ft at 12-18/sq ft/year but they feel crowded (they are cramming stations...
          Except the really expensive places: they have the same number of stations but 50-100% more space.
          When brides feel crowded by other brides, they feel badly treated.
          And workers have shorter fuses.

          Long story short: there is a very profitable space not filled.

          Combine the Ukrainian and Spanish designers with stations set 1 foot or so farther apart, schedule appointments for half an hour longer, throw in some extra politeness and champagne and nuts and chocolates not from Costco but a step above, and it looks like a good idea to open a wedding store.

          A bit more of looking around confirms that there are quite a few brides that want the slightly different Ukrainian and, especially, Spanish designers.

          They cannot afford the 6k+ at the upscale places but have between 1500 to 4000 for a dress abd feel mistreated at the existing non-upscale places.

          Time for the rest of the business plan.

          Turns out, if you can acquire a dress for 400 to 800 (you can) and sell it for 1500 to 4000 (you can) and spend no more than 140 to make a sale (you can), and your store costs you no more than 5100/month (quite possible), you can do quite nicely if your store is located in the middle if the area with 1st and 2nd generation eastern Europeans, Assyrians, and Armenians.

          Now, all you need is to find the money to get your hands on a few dozen dresses. You want to have like 200 in your display, to look amazing, but you can start with 60 or so. And that's like 40k, the mannequins and the mirrors and all the other equipment... 70k can do it all.

          You need a couple of thousands for marketing but it is not a bad idea.

          And you know because phase 1 planning found that there is a big need not fulfilled.


          Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

          This is a loaded question... And unfortunately the answer is YES you are the only one. if we look at a quality example of a business plan ( https://www.sba.gov/business-guide/p...-business-plan *** about half way down there are 2 examples *** ) You will see the level of competition and what they are doing is covered, but wants, needs and demand are NOT.

          So when you get into the aspect of a business plan that is going to project sales your better than average person will be making subjective guess' at best.

          When I started my hydroponics business, I grew to much. I was looking to offer my leftovers and help out a friend. I quickly realized the potential, and then determined on his and a couple of other business' I contacted how much a customer was worth.

          You can start making valid projections objectively from that point. Going out and looking at your competition will do nothing to understand YOUR bottom line.

          Another personal example. I got into vinyl lettering etc because I was paying $300 per truck to get them lettered up and on a whim I looked and the machine and the vinyl was $300 and at that point I needed to do 3 vehicles. At the get go I was ahead of the game, and that was a no brainer business avenue to get into.

          Yet another... Large Format Printing... I was paying $200 a print for photographs and doing between 5 and 10 per month. the 1st printer I got was $3000... I had the machine paid off in the first week of ownership ( from going out and selling the service ), and over the years that has turned into a 7 digit a year aspect of my business.

          Maybe its me that is the oddball.

          I just would not sit down and say "hmm I need to start a business.. what should I do? Oh, open a wedding dress shop sounds like a good idea!" I don't have a freakin clue about wedding dress'. and If I were to put together a business plan for said shop, and execute... it would fail, and if through sheer tenacity it didn't fail, it would not be an easy path.

          We have been around this forum long enough to read "I have no skills and no money what business should I start". The answer every time needs to be NONE and get a job LOL
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632168].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author savidge4
            Originally Posted by DABK View Post

            See, for me, open a wedding dress sounds like a good idea because I noticed the following:
            In my area, there is high end and David's Bridal and no good store in-between.

            There are stores that offer dresses in the 1500-2500 range but they treat their customers like they are low end.
            So the hard question... What did you do yesterday that can help you open this store tomorrow?
            Signature
            Success is an ACT not an idea
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632183].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author DABK
              I guess I am the odd one. I think of business plans in two ways:
              informal and formal.


              An informal one for yourself, to keep you on track as to what you need to be doing and understanding. I find that both have to have a profit and loss.


              For both, you should know what kind of demand there is.



              For both, you really need to know your costs to know how many dresses or shoes or saws you need to sell to break even, how many you need to sell to make x% profit, to know how much you should spend for acquiring a new client, etc.


              Some people can carry their informal business plan in their heads, some cannot.



              Most I've seen have no 'growth plan' in them.



              Many I've seen make plans and do nothing with them, or stick too closely to them and miss growth opportunities.


              Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

              The term "business plan" in this context may be a misnomer. A detailed business plan which includes full P&L projections is really only applicable for startups looking for funding - even then, nobody seriously expects the plan to bear much relation to subsequent events.

              For an individual starting out, it's useful to have a reasonably clear idea of whether your time and expenses are going to be worth the investment, and roughly when that return is likely to happen - but you need to retain optionality. Nearly all businesses end up somewhere different from where they started - sometimes just by a few tweaks, other times ending up in a totally different area unforeseen (or unknown) at the outset.

              As savidge4 says, you use the actual experience as you go along to determine the direction of your business, or maybe to diversify into some newly discovered market.
              Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

              I believe that a business plan needs to have P&L's even without the option of a loan or funding. Without P&L's you dont have a "Business" plan... you have more in line with a honey do list. The issue with a honey do list is you the business owner has no clue about how something plays out financially... and the bottom line is we are in business to do what? MAKE MONEY.

              Once I understand there is an amount of demand... my next step is to break down the expense and profitability. What is it going to cost me to get started ( or scale what i already have )? what is the end cost per unit? What is the average price being payed per item? How much profit am I going to make? How long will it take to recoup my initial investment? These are the type of financial questions I would be asking.
              If I wanted to open this store tomorrow, yesterday I'd have browsed wedding dresses and taken note of the designers that fit my requirements as to looks.



              Then, I'd research them... And I'd have discovered that some of them think they're artists (and have a hard time providing a second dress like the sample they sent you... Which makes it hard to sell their stuff), and some see themselves as in the business of providing wedding dresses... and have no objection to providing the same dress again and again and again.


              And I would have interviewed wedding dress sales people... looking for one who can close without seeming pushy and who doesn't go by: If they like it, they will steal, borrow and beg and get you the money you're asking for the dress, the ones that understand that money is an issue but it doesn't mean the people who do not have lots of money for the dress are somehow lacking in character, are not deserving in some way.


              And I'd be looking for marketing agencies that have wedding dress clients already... talking to those clients... looking at ads in other cities, far from mine, so not competitors, and talking to the owners behind the ads.


              I'd know that my new client acquisition cost has to be 140 or less (or 167 or less, or whatever), and finding out some marketing people who could deliver leads that make sense.


              Yes, most owners would not talk to me but a few would, and would tell me enough that I could make good guesses, or better.


              Your experience seems to make it unnecessary for you to write down a plan, you have it in your head. You don't call it a plan because it's fluid and not complete.



              I call those plans too.


              Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

              So the hard question... What did you do yesterday that can help you open this store tomorrow?
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632327].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Odahh
                Originally Posted by DABK View Post



                If I wanted to open this store tomorrow, yesterday I'd have browsed wedding dresses and taken note of the designers that fit my requirements as to looks.



                Then, I'd research them... And I'd have discovered that some of them think they're artists (and have a hard time providing a second dress like the sample they sent you... Which makes it hard to sell their stuff), and some see themselves as in the business of providing wedding dresses... and have no objection to providing the same dress again and again and again.


                And I would have interviewed wedding dress sales people... looking for one who can close without seeming pushy and who doesn't go by: If they like it, they will steal, borrow and beg and get you the money you're asking for the dress, the ones that understand that money is an issue but it doesn't mean the people who do not have lots of money for the dress are somehow lacking in character, are not deserving in some way.


                And I'd be looking for marketing agencies that have wedding dress clients already... talking to those clients... looking at ads in other cities, far from mine, so not competitors, and talking to the owners behind the ads.


                I'd know that my new client acquisition cost has to be 140 or less (or 167 or less, or whatever), and finding out some marketing people who could deliver leads that make sense.


                Yes, most owners would not talk to me but a few would, and would tell me enough that I could make good guesses, or better.


                Your experience seems to make it unnecessary for you to write down a plan, you have it in your head. You don't call it a plan because it's fluid and not complete.



                I call those plans too.

                do you have any personal experience doing any of that .. so how do you plan to handle when you fire a female employee ..and she sure you for sexual harassment and claims you pinched her butt and only fired her because she denied your advances ..

                your plan assumes you will do everything the way it needs to be done .. and takes no account for the great number of things that can go wrong ..

                now i usually have most of what can go wrong happen and sometimes even thing i did not think where possible to go wrong ..

                so when i do research i want to know what can go wrong and what can be done when things go wrong ..

                some version of the business building method savage is talking about ..and scale up as the business earn more.. but he has crazy level ability to scale ..without taking on debt ..
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632474].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
        Originally Posted by DABK View Post

        Is it just me who thinks that a good business plan calls for collecting a lot of data about wants and needs and competition before you do anything else?
        The term "business plan" in this context may be a misnomer. A detailed business plan which includes full P&L projections is really only applicable for startups looking for funding - even then, nobody seriously expects the plan to bear much relation to subsequent events.

        For an individual starting out, it's useful to have a reasonably clear idea of whether your time and expenses are going to be worth the investment, and roughly when that return is likely to happen - but you need to retain optionality. Nearly all businesses end up somewhere different from where they started - sometimes just by a few tweaks, other times ending up in a totally different area unforeseen (or unknown) at the outset.

        As savidge4 says, you use the actual experience as you go along to determine the direction of your business, or maybe to diversify into some newly discovered market.
        Signature
        TOP TIP: To browse the forum like a Pro, select "View Classic" from the drop-down menu under your user name.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11631947].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
          I love me some Internet jargon, like wireframe...not even sure what it means, but maybe a twisted hanger (not Sister) to wrap an idea around, like a Christmas wreath?

          Frank, you are right about the context (at least mine) of a plan. Formal ones, like the ones at the SBA, are generally used to find funding.

          So, borrowing from the world of web development, I submit the idea, a WARRIOR should have at least a Wireframe Plan of Action for their IM-MMO-Online Business.

          And as to how much data is needed, I would think along the lines of the Minimum Viable Product:

          Minimum- that someone will buy. Viable-that someone is buying. Product- what is offered.

          I mean, the start of a Christmas wreath could be a couple of pinecones hung from it, and surprisingly NOT, is where most of mine end up. Maybe I'll get crazy and spray some glitter on them.

          A WIREFRAME PLAN of A C T I O N. Initial data would at least include demand, market size and access, buyers history...or in other words IS IT VIABLE.

          And as for savidge4: "Maybe it is me that is the oddball?" YES. Yes you are. In a very positive way, few Warriors have sold a business for over 7 figures, few of us run a 7 figure business, and even fewer of us have your business experience and savvy.

          I don't disagree with anything savidge4 says, I take notes, but sometimes, it is about WHERE those gems are dropped, and here at the WF, for the vast majority, I think he is right about a business plan being too complicated for Warriors.

          But, maybe, a simple WIREFRAME POA will at least get them started.

          GordonJ

          PS. NO WSO planned, although it would be a great gift for new Warriors to get along with a must read TOS on how to use the forum.

          Yea WIREFRAME plan. That's the ticket.




          Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

          The term "business plan" in this context may be a misnomer. A detailed business plan which includes full P&L projections is really only applicable for startups looking for funding - even then, nobody seriously expects the plan to bear much relation to subsequent events.

          For an individual starting out, it's useful to have a reasonably clear idea of whether your time and expenses are going to be worth the investment, and roughly when that return is likely to happen - but you need to retain optionality. Nearly all businesses end up somewhere different from where they started - sometimes just by a few tweaks, other times ending up in a totally different area unforeseen (or unknown) at the outset.

          As savidge4 says, you use the actual experience as you go along to determine the direction of your business, or maybe to diversify into some newly discovered market.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632009].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
            Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

            I don't disagree with anything savidge4 says, I take notes, but sometimes, it is about WHERE those gems are dropped, and here at the WF, for the vast majority, I think he is right about a business plan being too complicated for Warriors.
            Agreed. There is a lot that can be said about K.I.S.S. Meant in a good way.
            My own experience when explaining a plan is to start with a K.I.S.S. plan and scale it up over time.
            Signature
            In the minute it took me to write this post.. someone died of Covid 19. RIP.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632011].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author savidge4
          Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

          The term "business plan" in this context may be a misnomer. A detailed business plan which includes full P&L projections is really only applicable for startups looking for funding - even then, nobody seriously expects the plan to bear much relation to subsequent events.

          For an individual starting out, it's useful to have a reasonably clear idea of whether your time and expenses are going to be worth the investment, and roughly when that return is likely to happen - but you need to retain optionality. Nearly all businesses end up somewhere different from where they started - sometimes just by a few tweaks, other times ending up in a totally different area unforeseen (or unknown) at the outset.

          As savidge4 says, you use the actual experience as you go along to determine the direction of your business, or maybe to diversify into some newly discovered market.
          I believe that a business plan needs to have P&L's even without the option of a loan or funding. Without P&L's you dont have a "Business" plan... you have more in line with a honey do list. The issue with a honey do list is you the business owner has no clue about how something plays out financially... and the bottom line is we are in business to do what? MAKE MONEY.

          Once I understand there is an amount of demand... my next step is to break down the expense and profitability. What is it going to cost me to get started ( or scale what i already have )? what is the end cost per unit? What is the average price being payed per item? How much profit am I going to make? How long will it take to recoup my initial investment? These are the type of financial questions I would be asking.

          Lets take one of my examples... I can get a HP Z6 44" printer for about $3000. A roll of scrim thats 42"x50' for like $300. A tool to insert grommets for like $12.00

          You can sell prints for $5.00 a sqf from that roll of scrim you should be able to produce 300 sqf or $1500 3 rolls of scrim and your initial investment is paid for. At this point you will need to probably buy an ink set which is like $900. your re-occurring costs will then be $1800 for 3 rolls and a set of ink and total cash made will be $4500. $2700 a month in profit.

          A community that is has about a population of 100,000 people, you should be able to run through that monthly. Not Millions but its a start. Start doing inside prints on photo paper.. and your paper cost drops significantly.

          I now have a full understanding of what I have to sell.. and how much of it. I can not even begin to tell you how many Covid signs I have printed in the last months. 3'x4' at $75.00 each - it has literally been endless and really no end in sight. I currently am running 3 shift and 15 large format printers non stop.

          Minus the blah blah blah and multiple pages of nothingness... the above is a Business plan... probably a plan you could walk into a SBA office and get financing for the printer. It checks all the boxes. How much to startup... what you will be selling, how much per unit you will sell them for, how many you need to break even on investment, and total profit on a monthly basis.

          AND you could literally do this in your dining room.

          P&L's is what brings a business plan to life... Knowing you have to sell 12 of something a month or whatever the number to just break even, gives you an idea of what kind of work will be involved in making the idea work. The moment you say.. "I cant go out and sell" ill say it again.. go get a JOB
          Signature
          Success is an ACT not an idea
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632067].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
            Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

            I believe that a business plan needs to have P&L's even without the option of a loan or funding. Without P&L's you dont have a "Business" plan... you have more in line with a honey do list. The issue with a honey do list is you the business owner has no clue about how something plays out financially... and the bottom line is we are in business to do what? MAKE MONEY.

            Once I understand there is an amount of demand... my next step is to break down the expense and profitability. What is it going to cost me to get started ( or scale what i already have )? what is the end cost per unit? What is the average price being payed per item? How much profit am I going to make? How long will it take to recoup my initial investment? These are the type of financial questions I would be asking.

            Lets take one of my examples... I can get a HP Z6 44" printer for about $3000. A roll of scrim thats 42"x50' for like $300. A tool to insert grommets for like $12.00

            You can sell prints for $5.00 a sqf from that roll of scrim you should be able to produce 300 sqf or $1500 3 rolls of scrim and your initial investment is paid for. At this point you will need to probably buy an ink set which is like $900. your re-occurring costs will then be $1800 for 3 rolls and a set of ink and total cash made will be $4500. $2700 a month in profit.

            A community that is has about a population of 100,000 people, you should be able to run through that monthly. Not Millions but its a start. Start doing inside prints on photo paper.. and your paper cost drops significantly.

            I now have a full understanding of what I have to sell.. and how much of it. I can not even begin to tell you how many Covid signs I have printed in the last months. 3'x4' at $75.00 each - it has literally been endless and really no end in sight. I currently am running 3 shift and 15 large format printers non stop.

            Minus the blah blah blah and multiple pages of nothingness... the above is a Business plan... probably a plan you could walk into a SBA office and get financing for the printer. It checks all the boxes. How much to startup... what you will be selling, how much per unit you will sell them for, how many you need to break even on investment, and total profit on a monthly basis.

            AND you could literally do this in your dining room.

            P&L's is what brings a business plan to life... Knowing you have to sell 12 of something a month or whatever the number to just break even, gives you an idea of what kind of work will be involved in making the idea work. The moment you say.. "I cant go out and sell" ill say it again.. go get a JOB
            The WF says on the home page it has 1.5+MILLION members. And any given day maybe 4 to 5k here viewing.

            Nothing scientific, but just a wild guess, I counted 22 people who I THINK have actually gone out and sold something, and that may be high.

            The subforum OFFLINE is where many hang out. But the reason the 1 and a half million people are here....

            is mostly...

            TO AVOID having to go out and sell, anything. How about using a P &L or Biz Plan for the affiliate marketing game, how would that look?

            Then there is this: maybe a large % of the 1.5 M here, can't get a job, or won't.

            Most all of us of the 22 who DO sell, out there, can't argue with you. We KNOW it works, but again, and I have to beat this horse until the glue is gone...it is the Warrior Forum, and those are truths shouted into the canyon, or wilderness and they fall on deaf ears.

            What would a PLAN look like for the 1.5M, maybe in affiliate marketing, it seems to be the first choice of many of them...and we see that 4, 5, even 10 years later, they have nothing to show for it.

            Any Plan for WARRIORS?

            GordonJ
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632123].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author savidge4
              Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

              TO AVOID having to go out and sell, anything. How about using a P &L or Biz Plan for the affiliate marketing game, how would that look?
              Lets start with this. I sell more than my fair share online. Just starting and wanting money in your pocket tomorrow... next week... next month... next year? Online is NOT where to start... unless you follow this: https://www.warriorforum.com/warrior...days-ebay.html

              aside from a hybrid model.... buy offline and sell on an online platform... an online only model is not for the weak.

              So the question at hand is what a business plan would look like with an affiliate marketing business? For me it would not look so different. I understand TRAFFIC.... I understand how to create and control traffic. Business as usual right?

              But your not asking the question for someone in my position.. your asking Jo average WF user... we step right into one of my previous posts where I discuss "Subjective" data vs "Objective" data. Having read the WF... bought some business programs or bought some lessons on Udemy is NOT going to get you a step closer to "Objective"

              Its real easy to figure how expensive it is to get a website started... a URL, webhosting, A theme, some plugins, an Autoresponder, a couple of posts written for you.. and then its all done and you make ( $ ) what?

              if anyone reading this wants to succeed ONLINE... INSTAGRAM and done. build an Instagram account with 10k+ followers

              My Instagram / Facebook stores are closing in on out performing my ebay stores. We have discontinued about 50% of our Amazon business and moved to Instagram / Facebook.

              FORGET the website and the SEO and the this and that.... these things are step 2 and 3... if you want to get started in online marketing.... figure out the niche and build a Instagram account and build build build... ONCE you have momentum... THEN and only THEN do you develop the site and convert the traffic.

              Thinking that you can build it and they will come... THAT is a path to broken dreams. Fill the stadium and then send out the popcorn vendors... THIS is the correct path to success.
              Signature
              Success is an ACT not an idea
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632173].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
            Hi savidge4. Interesting post.
            : )
            Personally I think there's a lot more to building a successful Website/Business than just "selling". Your comment (in red) sounds like the advice of an Offline Salesman ...

            And -- while there's nothing wrong with that -- here in 2020 most "Business Transactions" happen online.
            That being the case, it would be more advisable for a Person to learn "Online Selling/Copywriting" to sell their products.

            (And that's something almost anyone can learn with a little bit of education and practice.)
            Signature
            "Each problem has hidden in it an opportunity so powerful that it literally dwarfs the problem. The greatest success stories were created by people who recognized a problem and turned it into an opportunity."―Joseph Sugarman
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632146].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author savidge4
              Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

              Hi savidge4. Interesting post.
              : )
              Personally I think there's a lot more to building a successful Website/Business than just "selling". Your comment (in red) sounds like the advice of an Offline Salesman ...
              Websites do 1 or more of 3 things and 3 things only... They SELL, They Create LEADS.. that turn to SALES, or they inform - that more often than not puts the end user in a funnel of some type that SELLS. I strongly disagree with the notion that a website/business is anything but selling.

              Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

              And -- while there's nothing wrong with that -- here in 2020 most "Business Transactions" happen online.
              I would argue that the idea that Online outperforms offline would be Subjective in nature. Objectively we can look at articles like ( https://www.forbes.com/sites/gregpet...h=8fddacc75432 ) and see the opposite is true. or here: ( https://optinmonster.com/online-shopping-statistics/ ) about a 3rd of the way down this little gem appears

              "And, if you haven't gotten into eCommerce yet, it's a great time to start. In 2019, it's estimated there are 1.92 billion digital buyers, and eCommerce sales account for 14.1% of retail purchases worldwide.

              Since online shopping, in general, is growing so fast, the next statistic shouldn't come as a surprise to you. In 2023, eCommerce retail purchases are expected to rise from 14.1% to 22%
              "

              Look at your statement "here in 2020 most "Business Transactions" happen online" and understand against market facts... it is a FALSE statement. Get into B2B transactions... and the number is far less than 14.1%.

              Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

              That being the case, it would be more advisable for a Person to learn "Online Selling/Copywriting" to sell their products.
              I know your big on copywriting... but with no skill in this you can make bank on eBay. Go check out Garage flips ( https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRP...3FHfqRqdWJ3Ugg ) and watch a few of his videos and then visit his eBay stores and look at his "Descriptions" and such ( sales copy ) I cant knock the guy.. he sells product and lots of it... but he isnt writing to sell.. actually he writes very little. For myself, I have tested full descriptions vs minimal, and Full descriptions mitigates questions, returns, and increases sales. BUT.. they are obviously not needed

              Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

              (And that's something almost anyone can learn with a little bit of education and practice.)
              I would argue the best place to "Practice" this as well as developing SEO skills etc is eBay. The title or Header is extremely important. The images are important. kinda like a 1 liner on a paid ad... or an ad with an image on Facebook etc. Learning how a search engine works on a dumbed down model like eBay is a great starting place to having a better understanding how Google works.. not just search, but ad placement etc.

              Here is something for all of us to think about... How many people that are successful online do you think would be successful offline? And if you can create sales offline, how does that translate when the transition to online is made? I believe there is a direct correlation here. If you cant hit the street and make a sale.. the chances of you creating a machine that produces online sales is slim and none
              Signature
              Success is an ACT not an idea
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632176].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
                Thanks for the reply savidge4. A couple of thoughts/comments:

                Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                Websites do 1 or more of 3 things and 3 things only... They SELL, They Create LEADS.. that turn to SALES, or they inform - that more often than not puts the end user in a funnel of some type that SELLS. I strongly disagree with the notion that a website/business is anything but selling.
                I respect your opinion, however I think you are wrong:

                Just because your definition of "Website Success" is to make money/profit -- it doesn't mean everyone thinks like that. Sure I'm in the "Game" to make money, however equally -- if not more importantly -- I have a genuine desire to really help People. Eben Pagan said: "The most important business skill is compassion." There are countless, countless websites that are not all about selling. They provide valuable content or a service to People.

                It's been said that for a slim chance of being a successful Entrepreneur, have making money your goal. For a greater chance of being successful, have providing a product/service your goal. However for the greatest chance of success ... Solve a problem or need. Similarly a Person can Sell Sell Sell ... However unless they have something that People want and value, they won't see much success.

                Like I said before it's not all about selling. That's just part of the "Game".

                Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                If you cant hit the street and make a sale.. the chances of you creating a machine that produces online sales is slim and none
                I strongly disagree with that.

                Go and ask the most successful People on this Forum -- or anywhere, actually -- and I can almost guarantee that most of them don't have any experience with offline selling. Why? Because it's not a requirement. I'm not saying learning Sales, Marketing, And Copywriting aren't important ... Just that a Person doesn't need to be a "traditional Salesman" to make money online.
                Signature
                "Each problem has hidden in it an opportunity so powerful that it literally dwarfs the problem. The greatest success stories were created by people who recognized a problem and turned it into an opportunity."―Joseph Sugarman
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632341].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Odahh
                  Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

                  Thanks for the reply savidge4. A couple of thoughts/comments:



                  I respect your opinion, however I think you are wrong:

                  Just because your definition of "Website Success" is to make money/profit -- it doesn't mean everyone thinks like that. Sure I'm in the "Game" to make money, however equally -- if not more importantly -- I have a genuine desire to really help People. Eben Pagan said: "The most important business skill is compassion." There are countless, countless websites that are not all about selling. They provide valuable content or a service to People.


                  I strongly disagree with that.

                  Go and ask the most successful People on this Forum -- or anywhere, actually -- and I can almost guarantee that most of them don't have any experience with offline selling. Why? Because it's not a requirement. I'm not saying learning Sales, Marketing, And Copywriting aren't important ... Just that a Person doesn't need to be a "traditional Salesman" to make money online.
                  in any case the advice the last month ..from the several spiritual sources i listen to .. has been "do not try saving people from themselves . "

                  if people are not willing to pay for something .. it is not really valuable ..
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632351].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
                    Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

                    if people are not willing to pay for something .. it is not really valuable ..
                    Absolutely: That's why Market and Product Research is important.
                    Signature
                    "Each problem has hidden in it an opportunity so powerful that it literally dwarfs the problem. The greatest success stories were created by people who recognized a problem and turned it into an opportunity."―Joseph Sugarman
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632352].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author Odahh
                      Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

                      Absolutely: That's why Market and Product Research is important.
                      before you open up a store selling fresh roasted coffee ..but the smallest production coffee roaster you can ..learn to use it to roast coffee ..then see if you can sell ..the coffee at a good profit margin..and when you get customers who buy every week or ever other week..

                      scale up to bogger roasters as needed and to production space as needed ..

                      it doesn't matter how many people buy fresh roasted coffee in the marketplace..it only matters how much they buy from you ..
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632365].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
                        Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

                        it doesn't matter how many people buy fresh roasted coffee in the marketplace..it only matters how much they buy from you ..
                        Good point. Thanks. : )

                        And to answer your comment about People not willing to pay for something not having "value" (where I thought you were referring to creating a Product) ... I disagree.

                        That would be saying that the millions (billions?) of Articles that people read that are full of advice/tips/knowledge/etc. aren't "valuable". When, of course, they are. You didn't pay to join this Forum, however I'm guessing you find it valuable.
                        Signature
                        "Each problem has hidden in it an opportunity so powerful that it literally dwarfs the problem. The greatest success stories were created by people who recognized a problem and turned it into an opportunity."―Joseph Sugarman
                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632524].message }}
                        • Profile picture of the author Odahh
                          Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

                          Good point. Thanks. : )

                          And to answer your comment about People not willing to pay for something not having "value" (where I thought you were referring to creating a Product) ... I disagree.

                          That would be saying that the millions (billions?) of Articles that people read that are full of advice/tips/knowledge/etc. aren't "valuable". When, of course, they are. You didn't pay to join this Forum, however I'm guessing you find it valuable.
                          3-4 of the years i have been on this forum i subscribed ..for the 99$ a year deal..but the forum and what gets taught about i'm on this forum never adapted to micro transactions

                          ..and has mantainten a narrow idea of what IM is
                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632535].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                  Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

                  Just because your definition of "Website Success" is to make money/profit -- it doesn't mean everyone thinks like that. Sure I'm in the "Game" to make money, however equally -- if not more importantly -- I have a genuine desire to really help People.
                  I am far more "Enlightened" than I probably read on this forum. I am absolutely onboard with helping others. I do my very best to help those closest to me.. and I mean layers beyond my family, but generally close in proximity.

                  Wealth and the ability to help I believe to be synergistic. The more I make the more I can help, and the more I help the more I will make ( in a greatly broken down nut shell )


                  Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

                  There are countless, countless websites that are not all about selling. They provide valuable content or a service to People.
                  I will not disagree with this statement in any way shape or form.. but suggest such sites fall into 2 to 3 categories. Somebody simply providing the information to pass the knowledge they have knowing it would be wasted otherwise. Providing the information to give the appearance of "Giving" and those as mentioned above that use said sites to create a point of entry.

                  Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

                  It's been said that for a slim chance of being a successful Entrepreneur, have making money your goal. For a greater chance of being successful, have providing a product/service your goal. However for the greatest chance of success ... Solve a problem or need. Similarly a Person can Sell Sell Sell ... However unless they have something that People want and value, they won't see much success.
                  Again do not disagree in the slightest with this... The missed point here is believing in the Product or service. We look at someone like Claude, and I think he can manipulate this more than the average bear... ( and that is far from ment in a bad way )

                  My own personal story of being a full code based web developer and then migrating to <wince> WordPress... was a manipulation in my beliefs BUT the market shifted wildly and I had to believe - HAD TO - I still don't, but that's another story LOL

                  Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

                  Like I said before it's not all about selling. That's just part of the "Game".
                  I don't think its a game.. I think it is about "Selling" ( building wealth ) What would the Bill Gates Foundation look like if he was not absolutely ruthless in business? What would the tech industry look like today if there was not a 90% market share behemoth like Google? And since I brought it up.. Google... All about "Service" right most of their product / services are free no? $167,000,000,000 ( 167 Billion ) last year suggests "Free" pays pretty well

                  Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

                  I strongly disagree with that.
                  Im good with that... we really are not disagreeing, we are simply looking at the same thing with different perspectives. The simple fact that you have an opinion on the subject speaks volumes

                  Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

                  Go and ask the most successful People on this Forum -- or anywhere, actually -- and I can almost guarantee that most of them don't have any experience with offline selling. Why? Because it's not a requirement. I'm not saying learning Sales, Marketing, And Copywriting aren't important... Just that a Person doesn't need to be a "traditional Salesman" to make money online.
                  Most of the people I associate with from here at the forum do not fit your model.

                  Let me go a bit deeper with this... I have basically been working since I was 5yrs old. I am now low 50's years old. of the 45 plus years I have been working I have only every been an "employee" for 3 of those years. THIS is becoming more common with todays younger generations... however, MANY people that have Online Success, have had offline sales jobs of one type or another.

                  What I am saying is offline sales without question gives somebody a leg up in the online sales arena. bounce around the un successful parts of the internet and you see over and over the creator of a site is trying harder to sell to him/her self than anyone that visits the site. follow me? they simply do not understand the relationship and roles to be played in said relationship to "Make" sales online.
                  Signature
                  Success is an ACT not an idea
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632563].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
                    Hi savidge4. I appreciate the reply: There's nothing I disagree with ... It's cool to know we can have differing opinions yet still be respectful/thoughtful.

                    I didn't know you were in your early 50's -- I thought you were closer to my age -- however it's nice to know we have someone with as much experience in Business/Selling on The Forum.
                    : )
                    Signature
                    "Each problem has hidden in it an opportunity so powerful that it literally dwarfs the problem. The greatest success stories were created by people who recognized a problem and turned it into an opportunity."―Joseph Sugarman
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632679].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author fastreplies
    Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

    I went to an opportunity meeting 45 years ago. Bought a starter kit, contacted all my relatives, neighbors, friends and anyone who came within 3 feet (as I was told to do).
    45 years, eh?
    Which reminds me what P. T. Barnum said:
    "There's a sucker born every minute"

    Is anyone in here would dare to challenge P. T. Barnum?



    fastreplies
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11631945].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    I just would not sit down and say "hmm I need to start a business.. what should I do? Oh, open a wedding dress shop sounds like a good idea!" I don't have a freakin clue about wedding dress'. and If I were to put together a business plan for said shop, and execute... it would fail, and if through sheer tenacity it didn't fail, it would not be an easy path.

    We have been around this forum long enough to read "I have no skills and no money what business should I start". The answer every time needs to be NONE and get a job LOL
    How many threads are there that say 'I want to make money online but I don't want to sell anything'....or 'what niche should I choose' ....or the various 'mindset' threads (if you believe, you can achieve.....The Secret Works, blah blah)????

    If you see a need and fill it - you can call it 'providing a service' instead of 'selling' if that floats your boat. Just realize that people who find a need - or capitalize on their OWN need - are doing well year after year while others are discussing what to do in the future...year after year.

    The WF says on the home page it has 1.5+MILLION members. And any given day maybe 4 to 5k here viewing.
    Keep in mind those numbers are the result of over 20 years of 'membership'...grains of salt needed....
    Signature
    Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.
    It is not enough to dream, you must act. Without action, a door is just a wall.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632148].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
    Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

    A WIREFRAME PLAN of A C T I O N. Initial data would at least include demand, market size and access, buyers history...or in other words IS IT VIABLE.
    A local business startup might have to consider the market size, but online, it's an unnecessary stage, IMO - as long as you can determine that there are buyers that you can access, you're normally good to go. The other factors will be whether you can create or source the product or service at a cost that turns an acceptable profit. I've seen people get bogged down trying to analyse a market to death before committing themselves to a venture, when one of the key aspects of running a business is reacting to opportunities rather than sticking to a plan.

    In my neighborhood which has a higher than average proportion of elderly residents, there's a gardening firm, started out last year with two people and a van, who've diversified this year to supply groceries to those who are house-bound and can't get a convenient delivery slot from the supermarkets. Along the way, they've picked up several new gardening clients for when the pandemic subsides. That wouldn't have been in any business plan.

    Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

    I believe that a business plan needs to have P&L's even without the option of a loan or funding.
    Funny thing about P&Ls for funding... way back in the pre-internet days, I was involved in a few startups that needed funding. The CEO of one of the most profitable venture capital firms in the UK at the time told me he never paid any attention to the P&L forecast - he realized they were largely cosmetic. What he was looking to invest in were the people behind the company. Business plans change, markets change, unforeseen events happen. If a business was going to survive and thrive, it would be down to actions and reactions of whoever's running it.
    Signature
    TOP TIP: To browse the forum like a Pro, select "View Classic" from the drop-down menu under your user name.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632174].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

      A local business startup might have to consider the market size, but online, it's an unnecessary stage, IMO - as long as you can determine that there are buyers that you can access, you're normally good to go.
      I would suggest online only... you dont even have to determine if there are buyers. My better than general rule of thumb.. if you bought it ( regardless of what it is ) then there are others just like you out there that will do the same. There is no such thing as saturated, There is no such thing as lack of market. These are excuses and not reality. give me anything physical in nature and I can sell it online.


      Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

      The other factors will be whether you can create or source the product or service at a cost that turns an acceptable profit. I've seen people get bogged down trying to analyse a market to death before committing themselves to a venture, when one of the key aspects of running a business is reacting to opportunities rather than sticking to a plan.
      If you look at my eBay thread... there is a plan.. 3x or greater or not at all. and it takes moments with a phone in your hand to make that decision. Plans have their place. Anytime you can take the YOU out of the decision making process, and depend on a equation of success... you are ahead of the game.

      Think about this for a moment.. you are involved in a direct person sale... and your plan is to offer X for $400.00, because you have sold 3 or 4 before this meeting for that price... your not going to waffle and say "ok ill do it for $100" ( I would hope not anyways ) plans create a sliver of separation between the YOU and your bottom line.

      Like I have said above, some / most of my greatest successes stemmed from personal need, where I realized I could buy in, and produce what I needed for less than what I was paying to have it done for me.

      Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

      In my neighborhood which has a higher than average proportion of elderly residents, there's a gardening firm, started out last year with two people and a van, who've diversified this year to supply groceries to those who are house-bound and can't get a convenient delivery slot from the supermarkets. Along the way, they've picked up several new gardening clients for when the pandemic subsides. That wouldn't have been in any business plan.
      If we were to know the whole story "the gardening firm" was probably not this pairs first rodeo. They have hustle in their blood... they understand that they can get in front of these people making $20 to deliver groceries every other week, but will land $40 a week cutting their grass in the long run. Word of mouth, and foot in the door for the win LOL

      Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

      Funny thing about P&Ls for funding... way back in the pre-internet days, I was involved in a few startups that needed funding. The CEO of one of the most profitable venture capital firms in the UK at the time told me he never paid any attention to the P&L forecast - he realized they were largely cosmetic. What he was looking to invest in were the people behind the company. Business plans change, markets change, unforeseen events happen. If a business was going to survive and thrive, it would be down to actions and reactions of whoever's running it.
      I have in the past used the SBA...and they are very P&L driven. as a investor myself.. I look but its not an overly important aspect of a pitch. BUT I will press the numbers a bit in conversation to see how subjective vs objective the numbers are and if they have done their homework. ( most have not done their homework )
      Signature
      Success is an ACT not an idea
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632181].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
    Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

    What would a PLAN look like for the 1.5M, maybe in affiliate marketing, it seems to be the first choice of many of them...and we see that 4, 5, even 10 years later, they have nothing to show for it.
    Any Plan for WARRIORS?
    I find it strange that affiliate marketing seems to be the popular choice for so many new members. It's probably the hardest area to make any decent money in without already having a sizeable following. Perhaps it's the idea that they don't need to create a product themselves that's the attraction.

    I'd have to agree that the best way for any newcomer to get started is to go where there's already a large, established base of buyers, such as eBay. It's all very well to say learn copywriting or start a niche content blog, but anyone who's that way inclined is more than likely already doing that. What we're left with are those who still believe they're just one more MMO product away from discovering the secret to online success. Any plan that doesn't start with 1) Stop buying stuff - would be pointless.
    Signature
    TOP TIP: To browse the forum like a Pro, select "View Classic" from the drop-down menu under your user name.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632184].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

      I find it strange that affiliate marketing seems to be the popular choice for so many new members. It's probably the hardest area to make any decent money in without already having a sizeable following.
      I think that it easily could be argued that it is the hardest option, in terms of an online business model. I preach regularly and loud that you have to create an audience... but its to much work... or I have tried for 4 months and only my mom is following me or whatever else... the best one is I posted something last week and its not viral... now what? hahaha

      Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

      Perhaps it's the idea that they don't need to create a product themselves that's the attraction.
      Without question this and the fact you do not have to create a "Sales Page". The BIGGEST hurdle in this is 2 fold, obviously traffic... but less obvious is the fact that you need to be lead generating and not selling. And I think we can all attest to the fact that this is far from a nuance of approach. Trying to sell and then deliver the end user to a sales page simply does not work.

      Throw in the fact that 99% of these people dont even have the product to better understand what type of content they can create that parallels the product to help in creating separation in the market space... and it just has failure written all over it.

      I personally have a hard time with online lead gen. I can SELL all day long... but preselling a sale cold is just not my thing. Once I have someone in a funnel that has been sold to... that is more in line with my style. And not that I am bragging or otherwise.. If I have a problem with this concept, how does average Jo WF user stand a chance?
      Signature
      Success is an ACT not an idea
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632317].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        do you have any personal experience doing any of that .. so how do you plan to handle when you fire a female employee ..and she sure you for sexual harassment and claims you pinched her butt and only fired her because she denied your advances ..

        your plan assumes you will do everything the way it needs to be done .. and takes no account for the great number of things that can go wrong ..
        Some of the responses seem to meant more to argue than to enlighten. Are you saying it's better to do nothing because something 'bad' might happen?

        Do you think someone running a business is not cognizant of the employee risks that might be involved and take steps to mitigate them?

        Or is it that it's better to think and conjecture - and think and conjecture some more - and then do that again?

        I find it strange that affiliate marketing seems to be the popular choice for so many new members. It's probably the hardest area to make any decent money in without already having a sizeable following.
        I've thought the same about affiliate marketing AND MLM and I do believe it seems like an 'easier option' to those totally new to working online. It has 'training' - it's 'done for you' - many of the products/sellers even provide a website clone....

        I also think it's an employee mindset that wants to be part of a group (co-workers?) with someone to lead (a boss?). IMO, if you cannot work on your own - manage your own time - plan on your own - make your own judgements...you need to get a real job.
        Signature
        Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.
        It is not enough to dream, you must act. Without action, a door is just a wall.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632479].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Odahh
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Some of the responses seem to meant more to argue than to enlighten. Are you saying it's better to do nothing because something 'bad' might happen?

          Do you think someone running a business is not cognizant of the employee risks that might be involved and take steps to mitigate them?

          Or is it that it's better to think and conjecture - and think and conjecture some more - and then do that again?
          my post was actually a question to the experience of dbak or dabk hower their then they his her .. name is spelled ,

          please stop..and i am asking nicely ...it has been 2-3 year you have been doing this ..so either do it to everyone on this forum or just stop doing it to me
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632544].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author savidge4
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          I also think it's an employee mindset that wants to be part of a group (co-workers?) with someone to lead (a boss?). IMO, if you cannot work on your own - manage your own time - plan on your own - make your own judgements...you need to get a real job.
          So agree with this... but many simply do not understand the level of discipline needed to do these things... 4 hours a week!?!?! I got this LOL
          Signature
          Success is an ACT not an idea
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11632564].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author koolstories
    Don't Worry You need to make a checklist like:-

    1. Focus on the Brand name - Catchy name

    2. Which product do you sale in the Market - Analysis market wants this product or not.

    3. Focus on your employee - They are happy or not, ask the opinion, Employee happy your customer happy.

    4. Ask feedback from the market about you product.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11635124].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
      Originally Posted by koolstories View Post

      Don't Worry You need to make a checklist like:-

      1. Focus on the Brand name - Catchy name

      2. Which product do you sale in the Market - Analysis market wants this product or not.

      3. Focus on your employee - They are happy or not, ask the opinion, Employee happy your customer happy.

      4. Ask feedback from the market about you product.
      Thanks Koolstories.

      In the original post, which many of these latter day posters didn't bother to read, as is fairly typical here at WF...

      The business I "failed" at had a catchy Brand name...AMWAY.

      I never sold any, which was the title of the thread...NO SALES. The market needs some products like laundry soap, I just didn't want to sell it.

      I had no employee, just the one (ME) he was not happy with this business, which is why he (me) never made any sales.

      I asked everyone within 3 feet, as was I instructed by a guy named Jody Victor, the feedback I got was, "leave me the hell alone".

      Hopefully, that is the end of the 45 years with NO sales, but I did learn some lessons, and the most important one for Internet Marketers...

      Pick a business with a product/service you want to offer, that people want to buy and they have the money and means to do so. THIS lesson, has more than made up for my failure in THAT business.

      Happy Remote Thanksgiving.

      GordonJ
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11635209].message }}
Avatar of Unregistered

Trending Topics