Dealing with people that think selling is evil

75 replies
Many moons ago, I have to admit that I had the same distrust of sales/marketing people that a lot of new business owners have.....

- That sales people/techniques can make you buy something you don't want
- That rapport-building techniques are bad
- That if you build the best product, people will find it, so you don't need marketing/sales anyway
- That commissions are a cost vs a reflection you got sales you wouldn't have otherwise got

And so on.

Now - this usually comes up at the point someone is paying commissions or looking at what they paid you and feeling you didn't do enough for it.

I have found this rarely comes up at a good time. You are usually on the other side of a negotiation and that's not the point at which the other side of the table is receptive to being educated.

Any thoughts? Seems to me like any reply you can give adds fuel to the fire until they understand that people like buying stuff.
#dealing #evil #people #selling
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  • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
    Originally Posted by jigsawtrading View Post

    Many moons ago, I have to admit that I had the same distrust of sales/marketing people that a lot of new business owners have.....
    If they're business owners, they're unlikely to think selling is evil - that's what they're doing themselves. Your role is to show them how your product or service will benefit their business.

    I wonder if your uncertainty stems from a lack of belief or confidence in what you're selling.
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  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
    Originally Posted by jigsawtrading View Post

    Many moons ago, I have to admit that I had the same distrust of sales/marketing people that a lot of new business owners have.....

    - That sales people/techniques can make you buy something you don't want
    - That rapport-building techniques are bad
    - That if you build the best product, people will find it, so you don't need marketing/sales anyway
    - That commissions are a cost vs a reflection you got sales you wouldn't have otherwise got

    And so on.

    Now - this usually comes up at the point someone is paying commissions or looking at what they paid you and feeling you didn't do enough for it.

    I have found this rarely comes up at a good time. You are usually on the other side of a negotiation and that's not the point at which the other side of the table is receptive to being educated.

    Any thoughts? Seems to me like any reply you can give adds fuel to the fire until they understand that people like buying stuff.
    It's your job to position yourself as an advisor, not an evil money hungry con artist.

    Language helps. Never say "I sold.." say "They invested in..."

    If they ask how much commission you get, just say "The company takes care of their reps, just like they take care of their customers".

    If you often get asked about your profit or commission, believe me, or if you repeatedly get the same objection, you are doing something to create that response. I know that's hard to hear.


    And they don't think selling is evil. They think "what they believe selling to be" is evil. All business is buying and selling. Nothing happens in business until something is sold.

    In a business, selling and marketing are the only things that contribute to growth. Everything else contributes to cost. Be proud. The single most common trait of a CEO is their ability to sell their ideas.

    If anyone asks how you get paid, tell them "Most people get paid by the time they spend on the job. I get paid by how much service I render to my customers".

    Added later; Sometimes, I hear "I only get paid on commission". But that's the wrong way to think. Who gets a salary? Employees. Who works on commission? Doctors, lawyers, entertainers, farmers, all business owners work on commission. Commission is more, not less. If you are wealthy, you got that way by earning a profit.
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    • Profile picture of the author snowowl
      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

      It's your job to position yourself as an advisor, not an evil money hungry con artist.

      Language helps. Never say "I sold.." say "They invested in..."

      If they ask how much commission you get, just say "The company takes care of their reps, just like they take care of their customers".

      If you often get asked about your profit or commission, believe me, or if you repeatedly get the same objection, you are doing something to create that response. I know that's hard to hear.


      And they don't think selling is evil. They think "what they believe selling to be" is evil. All business is buying and selling. Nothing happens in business until something is sold.

      In a business, selling and marketing are the only things that contribute to growth. Everything else contributes to cost. Be proud. The single most common trait of a CEO is their ability to sell their ideas.

      If anyone asks how you get paid, tell them "Most people get paid by the time they spend on the job. I get paid by how much service I render to my customers".

      Added later; Sometimes, I hear "I only get paid on commission". But that's the wrong way to think. Who gets a salary? Employees. Who works on commission? Doctors, lawyers, entertainers, farmers, all business owners work on commission. Commission is more, not less. If you are wealthy, you got that way by earning a profit.

      That was very well said...


      Wished I had learnt that years ago ;-)


      For what it is worth, I read somewhere that people hate being sold to, but love buying...
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by snowowl View Post

        For what it is worth, I read somewhere that people hate being sold to, but love buying...
        I see that often. It's one of the old sayings that get tossed around and reprinted in books.

        I think I know what it means.

        People love to be sold to...by competent salespeople. In my life, I have met three salespeople, that I would call great. (out of thousands). Four, if you count me. I have never met Kenmichaels, but it's obvious that he's up there too.. I have read a few authors that I think might fit the bill.


        To be sold something by them is a privilege. It feels like a massage. As they sell, you feel better about them...better about yourself...and the desire to buy from them builds. Buying feels like it's their choice, because it is. That's why they don't feel sold to....the tension isn't there. The tension, the internal struggle, the resistance falls away......because they are doing what they want to do.

        And people seldom say "No" to doing what they want to do.

        And...expert selling is invisible...like expert acting....or expert seduction.

        People love being sold. What they hate is being badgered by incompetent salespeople, that have no idea what they are doing...cannot build any rapport, cannot build value in their offer, cannot match their offer to the buyer, cannot make buying the obvious conclusion.

        So "sold to" means being bothered by incompetents.

        And then there is this.....

        Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

        I, trying to be impressive, asked her what she thought.
        Her response was... That's selling? OMG that's boring! Cant, you find something better to do?
        Yup.

        Expert selling is invisible. It looks like a regular conversation to the uninitiated.....and the salesperson that can do it looks lucky.

        A common conversation I would have with a rep that went with me on a sales call...or when my wife went with me....

        Them "Lucky that they were going to buy anyway"

        Me "Are you joking? I answered objections for an hour before I started my presentation, and closed for an hour after I was done That sales was almost impossible".

        But it just looks like a conversation, one that is going my way.
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        • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          I see that often. It's one of the old sayings that get tossed around and reprinted in books.

          I think I know what it means.

          People love to be sold to...by competent salespeople. In my life, I have met three salespeople, that I would call great. (out of thousands). Four, if you count me. I have never met Kenmichaels, but it's obvious that he's up there too.. I have read a few authors that I think might fit the bill.

          Aww shuxxx.

          My older brother has an emergency road service business in NY/NJ with about 30 guys working for him. He calls me up the other day to shoot the breeze (he never does that) and eventually I realize that he wants something. So I just asked, what do you want? And it turns out that he wants me to go teach his crew how to upsell things batteries and other car accessories.

          First, I feel privileged that he asked me instead of some knucklehead who may steer him wrong, but I did not let him know how I felt, this guy has tortured me for years for choosing sales as my profession. I clearly remember him saying things such as scam, scammer, con artist, embarrassing to the family, and on and on.

          I took a moment to torture him in return...he offered an all-expenses-paid trip plus money for the job. I told him he can't pay me to do that for him.
          I reminded him of all the awful shit he said over the years and when I felt he was close to hanging up in anger I told him I was just busting his balls.
          I then said,
          sure I'll come help...but only if you say I was right and I'm the king.
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

            And it turns out that he wants me to go teach his crew how to upsell things batteries and other car accessories.
            The good news (I know you already know all this) is that upselling to a customer at point of purchase is about as easy as it gets....and is highly profitable, because the cost of customer acquisition doesn't go up.

            The bad news is that you'll be teaching tech guys that will hate the thought of actually selling something, and you'll have to keep it super easy...almost "Would you like fries with your shake?".

            But if anyone can do it, you can.
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            • Profile picture of the author socialentry
              "La vertu s'avilit à se justifier"-Voltaire.
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    • Profile picture of the author Wit And Verve
      Very well explained. Thank you
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  • Profile picture of the author Matthew Stanley
    "Most people get paid by the time they spend on the job. I get paid by how much service I render to my customers".
    Who gets a salary? Employees. Who works on commission? Doctors, lawyers, entertainers, farmers, all business owners work on commission. Commission is more, not less. If you are wealthy, you got that way by earning a profit
    I know I'm not the only one who had their fingers crossed that Claude would chime in here - and glad he did The two re-frames above in particular I find so valuable. As the saying goes, 'you don't get rich renting out your time' (even for a high hourly wage). The leaders/CEOs considered the most "visionary" due to their effectiveness and impact (Jobs, Musk, etc) tend to be the most skilled at sales as well...
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Matthew Stanley View Post

      I know I'm not the only one who had their fingers crossed that Claude would chime in here - and glad he did .
      That's very kind of you to say.



      I feel for the OP. I remember decades ago, when I had to deal with the same thing. "He talked me into it" was a mild version. "He fast talked me into it" or even "I'm not falling for it" was something I heard occasionally.

      Most people hear the words "selling" and they say a version of "I could never sell anything. I'm too honest". (A personal way to get me to grit my teeth)

      Selling is almost universally portrayed in movies as a desperate, vulgar way to make a living. Why? Because they don't know what selling is. And movie writers aren't salespeople...and they have to adhere to the myth that selling is bad.

      The OP said " That sales people/techniques can make you buy something you don't want". Of course this isn't true. Nobody can do that. We aren't supervillians.

      There are several ways to define selling. They all have elements of truth.

      It's a transference of feeling.

      A transference of belief.

      A transference of certainty. I like this one the most. People buy when their certainty about your offer and you...are at a high point. That's selling. Clear communication with a purpose.

      I recently read a description of top tier advertising, and I think it fits selling as well.

      The truth, well told.

      Now, if someone would just help me off this soapbox.
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      • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        That's very kind of you to say.



        I feel for the OP. I remember decades ago, when I had to deal with the same thing. "He talked me into it" was a mild version. "He fast talked me into it" or even "I'm not falling for it" was something I heard occasionally.

        Most people hear the words "selling" and they say a version of "I could never sell anything. I'm too honest". (A personal way to get me to grit my teeth)

        Selling is almost universally portrayed in movies as a desperate, vulgar way to make a living. Why? Because they don't know what selling is. And movie writers aren't salespeople...and they have to adhere to the myth that selling is bad.

        The OP said " That sales people/techniques can make you buy something you don't want". Of course this isn't true. Nobody can do that. We aren't supervillians.

        There are several ways to define selling. They all have elements of truth.

        It's a transference of feeling.

        A transference of belief.

        A transference of certainty. I like this one the most. People buy when their certainty about your offer and you...are at a high point. That's selling. Clear communication with a purpose.

        I recently read a description of top tier advertising, and I think it fits selling as well.

        The truth, well told.

        Now, if someone would just help me off this soapbox.
        Here I'll help.

        Re-read his last line.

        Originally Posted by jigsawtrading View Post

        Any thoughts? Seems to me like any reply you can give adds fuel to the fire until they understand that people like buying stuff.

        It appears to me you guys are saying stuff he already knows.
        I think his Thai to English lost a little in the translation.

        Maybe I'm wrong, we will know for sure if the OP ever responds again.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

          Here I'll help.

          Re-read his last line.
          .
          Point taken.



          Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

          It appears to me you guys are saying stuff he already knows.
          I think his Thai to English lost a little in the translation.

          Maybe I'm wrong, we will know for sure if the OP ever responds again.
          I've often wondered how selling is different in different cultures.

          Originally Posted by jigsawtrading View Post

          Now - this usually comes up at the point someone is paying commissions or looking at what they paid you and feeling you didn't do enough for it.
          Do you mean they don't think you have earned your commission?


          Originally Posted by jigsawtrading View Post

          I have found this rarely comes up at a good time. You are usually on the other side of a negotiation and that's not the point at which the other side of the table is receptive to being educated.
          What comes up? Could you be more specific?
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          • Profile picture of the author socialentry
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            I've often wondered how selling is different in different cultures.

            I don't think it's very different.

            At one point, I translated your books' concepts almost verbatim and very little changed at a fundamental level when I tried it in practice.

            I also translated (and tried) Jordan Beltfort's stuff. The main difference is that some idioms in English don't exist in french, so it sounded weird even to a casual listener. Other words had to be found and used instead while respecting the tempo of the piece.

            The only more complex issue is that some languages have several politeness registers. For example, in French, there is "Vous" and "tu" instead of "you", with the former being more polite. But even in English, just how familiar to get on a cold call IMO is still a question to ask myself. It's just more subtle and goes unspoken.

            Just reading the posts in the offline, there are differences in sales culture, but I suspect it's more due to conservatism then it is to any real cultural restrictions amongst the general populace.
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    • Originally Posted by Matthew Stanley View Post

      I know I'm not the only one who had their fingers crossed that Claude would chime in here - and glad he did
      Gotta tellya folks, srs yogah meditation begins with Claude Chimes.

      But that is a story for anothah day. Mebbe next Toosday.

      Main thing is to considah how no man is an island -- even the goils.

      Masterful though evrywan be, we only got pieces of the hooman puzzle when it comes to talents, resources, time etc.

      So there is always gonna be exchange -- a transfer of skill or cash bounty for desirables you can't manifest yusself too cheap or easy.

      Golden rule, howevah, is how that exchange gotta be fully agreed an' fair.

      Once it ain't, you in rip-off territory.

      An' I guess this is where sales gets a bad name.

      From people don't fully appreciate the essence of the contract.
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  • Profile picture of the author jigsawtrading
    Thank you all for the replies. I have to be a bit careful here as this is public.

    Many of the people I deal with have had a successful career in an arena where it's 'just them' pretty much. Their careers revolve around them employing their skills solo or with a small team.

    That is a full, rewarding and successful career with almost zero corporate exposure to things like partnerships, sales, marketing, product development etc.

    After that, some of them join our side of the industry and I partner with them. So it's almost like dealing with people in their first years of work. It takes a lot of hand-holding because it's common for them to say "I don't want to sell". Usually, it's just a matter of explaining why we are implementing certain things.

    I myself pay affiliates 30%. I also have a few moderately successful relationships where I am the affiliate/reseller. Our biggest earner is with a marketing savvy firm that has no qualms about pay-outs and our slice is about half way to 7 figures a year. No complaints from them ever.

    One of the other relationships is becoming problematic as the partner is looking at our slice and seeing it as a cost, rather than looking at their slice and seeing it as gravy. The primary has not come through the corporate world, has had no exposure to partnerships or sales or marketing at all. Day zero.

    We were a reseller and we are losing that. That's done. No reversing it. No negotiation. It's changing.
    We are being offered an affiliate deal that is not very attractive in its place.I never made much of a thing about what we had to do to get the sales. It looks like that's left them with the impression we did very little but sit back and earn.

    So in our discussions today - the following things came across from their side:
    - That there is another company that will push the product to their customers for free and that's the way it should be
    - That we should all just sell our own respective products and not look for a %age of partner sales - because it's good for the customers
    - That they have no plans to do any marketing as the product will be so good, people will find it
    - That they don't like selling and we shouldn't sell it - but let people decide on their own
    - (when I asked how they'd feel about a 50% split to feel them out) That it's their product and why should they give the money to someone else.
    - That I got lucky with the prior reseller deal we struck, I think the implication is I took advantage of them at that point but I can't be sure. I still think it was an amazing deal for them.

    So there is a huge gap in terms of understanding the time and costs of - acquiring leads, building rapport, matching people with a product and closing deals.

    Unfortunately - I am on the other side of the negotiating table. So anything I say will I get treated like it's part of my strategy to sway them and I've told them - we have to both be comfortable with any deal we strike.

    The crux of it is the belief that "selling is evil" and "if your product is great, you don't need sales/marketing anyway".

    It's a tough nut to crack.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by jigsawtrading View Post

      One of the other relationships is becoming problematic as the partner is looking at our slice and seeing it as a cost, rather than looking at their slice and seeing it as gravy.
      I think I get it.
      I don't see a way to change their mind. They think the money you bring is their money. They don't think of it as you bringing them money. They see it as sharing their money.

      Thinking that people should just find you...and just buy...because what you have is good is an incurable illness in business. And it's nearly always fatal.

      Me? I would find another company to make a deal with. Even if you somehow convinced them to work with you, they would be a source of constant pain.

      It sounds like you know your business.
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      • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        I think I get it.
        I don't see a way to change their mind. They think the money you bring is their money. They don't think of it as you bringing them money. They see it as sharing their money.

        Thinking that people should just find you...and just buy...because what you have is good is an incurable illness in business. And it's nearly always fatal.

        Me? I would find another company to make a deal with. Even if you somehow convinced them to work with you, they would be a source of constant pain.

        It sounds like you know your business.
        Ive seen that more times then I can count in the lead business, they (the client) forget what it was like before you got involved. They can only see the high payout and start assuming.

        I'm lazy, so here is a blurb from one my books. It's on topic, mostly.

        I left the section intact so that it makes sense, but it does require a smidge of extrapolation

        "Charge on a per-sale basis to make more money"

        This is one of those things that sound great in theory, however, the stark naked truth repeatedly reveals to us that it's nothing more than a very sexy-looking trap.

        The myth is, you will make more money if you waive the per lead cost and take a percentage of each sale.

        Let's look at the most basic fundamental fact first. You have a cost for generating the leads, so right off the bat, you are risking that investment on someone else's ability. Depending on the pay structure you have worked out, you are looking at one, two, or four weeks before you get paid. If your cost per day is $1000.00 that multiplies fast. Your talking, 7k, 14k, or 28k out of your pocket before you ever see any return. And again, your banking on their ability.

        Let's just assume for the sake of argument, laying out that type of investment is not a problem for you and everything goes according to plan. If you don't have eyes and ears inside the establishment, then you don't really know what is going on. This means you have to rely on their bookkeeping and trust. I'm telling you right now, trust only goes so far and only lasts for so long. Arguments will creep up, you will expect them to close more sales, they will expect you to provide more or better leads.

        Let me give you an example: All sales crews have lull periods, either from holidays, lack of proper management, employee turn around, etc and that list goes on and on. Typically what happens is when the sales drop, the sales team blames the leads. When that happens the blame is then shifted to you. Trust me when I say this will cause bad blood between you and them. Part of the bad blood will happen because you will start to question if they are really selling less or are cheating you. Truthfully that is just the tip of the ice burg as far as problems go.

        Forget about all of those problems a minute. Let me explain something I have witnessed countless times with this method, personally and to other brokers that I am close with.

        Eventually, the greed factor kicks in for one or both parties, most often it's the salesroom first. They start to resent the fact that they are giving you such large checks. They begin to forget how important you really are and they forget what their sales were like before you came on board. More importantly than that, they assume they can get the same quality of leads from somewhere else for less money and that they have you by the short hairs. This happens gradually and it's because the more they sell, the bigger the bills get for them and the more staff they need for fulfillment, so they are literally making more money yet profiting the same or less. This is a hurdle every sales company must overcome, yet most don't have the skills or desire to adjust internally. Their lack of business acumen dictates that you are the problem. All they know is that they have to restructure. Unfortunately at this point, you are the one with the bullseye on your back so they mistakenly think they need to restructure things with you.

        The very first thing that they will want to restructure is the percentage of the sale that you get. They will want you to take less money and bring in more leads. That means your cost will go up and your profit will go down. This isn't going to sit very well with you. You work hard, have a specialized skill, and have spent months perfecting and customizing the quality of the lead specifically for their salesroom. Your pride won't let you take less money and if you do manage to stuff your pride deep down inside in order to keep the windfall coming ... eventually you will start feeling like they are taking advantage of you.


        Like I said, waving the per lead cost in lieu of a percent per sale is a trap.

        Every few years some company comes into my life and I give it a whirl. It never lasts. I know many, many other lead brokers who try it too and it never works out for them either.

        I have horror stories coming out of my ears from other brokers who have tried the percent per sale method. Human nature is a funny thing and generally speaking I know how it works, that means, eventually, I know you will have your own horror story to share with the rest of us.
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        • Profile picture of the author jigsawtrading
          Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

          Ive seen that more times then I can count in the lead business, they (the client) forget what it was like before you got involved. They can only see the high payout and start assuming.

          I'm lazy, so here is a blurb from one my books. It's on topic, mostly.

          I left the section intact so that it makes sense, but it does require a smidge of extrapolation

          "Charge on a per-sale basis to make more money"

          This is one of those things that sound great in theory, however, the stark naked truth repeatedly reveals to us that it's nothing more than a very sexy-looking trap.

          The myth is, you will make more money if you waive the per lead cost and take a percentage of each sale.

          Let's look at the most basic fundamental fact first. You have a cost for generating the leads, so right off the bat, you are risking that investment on someone else's ability. Depending on the pay structure you have worked out, you are looking at one, two, or four weeks before you get paid. If your cost per day is $1000.00 that multiplies fast. Your talking, 7k, 14k, or 28k out of your pocket before you ever see any return. And again, your banking on their ability.

          Let's just assume for the sake of argument, laying out that type of investment is not a problem for you and everything goes according to plan. If you don't have eyes and ears inside the establishment, then you don't really know what is going on. This means you have to rely on their bookkeeping and trust. I'm telling you right now, trust only goes so far and only lasts for so long. Arguments will creep up, you will expect them to close more sales, they will expect you to provide more or better leads.

          Let me give you an example: All sales crews have lull periods, either from holidays, lack of proper management, employee turn around, etc and that list goes on and on. Typically what happens is when the sales drop, the sales team blames the leads. When that happens the blame is then shifted to you. Trust me when I say this will cause bad blood between you and them. Part of the bad blood will happen because you will start to question if they are really selling less or are cheating you. Truthfully that is just the tip of the ice burg as far as problems go.

          Forget about all of those problems a minute. Let me explain something I have witnessed countless times with this method, personally and to other brokers that I am close with.

          Eventually, the greed factor kicks in for one or both parties, most often it's the salesroom first. They start to resent the fact that they are giving you such large checks. They begin to forget how important you really are and they forget what their sales were like before you came on board. More importantly than that, they assume they can get the same quality of leads from somewhere else for less money and that they have you by the short hairs. This happens gradually and it's because the more they sell, the bigger the bills get for them and the more staff they need for fulfillment, so they are literally making more money yet profiting the same or less. This is a hurdle every sales company must overcome, yet most don't have the skills or desire to adjust internally. Their lack of business acumen dictates that you are the problem. All they know is that they have to restructure. Unfortunately at this point, you are the one with the bullseye on your back so they mistakenly think they need to restructure things with you.

          The very first thing that they will want to restructure is the percentage of the sale that you get. They will want you to take less money and bring in more leads. That means your cost will go up and your profit will go down. This isn't going to sit very well with you. You work hard, have a specialized skill, and have spent months perfecting and customizing the quality of the lead specifically for their salesroom. Your pride won't let you take less money and if you do manage to stuff your pride deep down inside in order to keep the windfall coming ... eventually you will start feeling like they are taking advantage of you.


          Like I said, waving the per lead cost in lieu of a percent per sale is a trap.

          Every few years some company comes into my life and I give it a whirl. It never lasts. I know many, many other lead brokers who try it too and it never works out for them either.

          I have horror stories coming out of my ears from other brokers who have tried the percent per sale method. Human nature is a funny thing and generally speaking I know how it works, that means, eventually, I know you will have your own horror story to share with the rest of us.
          Good stuff.

          All of our lead-gen is targeted at our products. We generally resell partner products, so we can position them properly, and align them with our products/customers. Nothing we sell is for all customers.

          We vet the products, go visit the company, develop a relationship and then, when we are comfortable, we'll launch.

          We are an affiliate of just 1 company and we recommend that service to our base, few non-customers would find the information/links.

          Funny thing though - as you mention charging per lead vs sale - we are more likely to be paying for that service than providing it. There's a lot of people selling leads in our industry and we've occasionally dipped our toe in the water, only to find it's all old, stale lists. Sounds like an interesting challenge to do it properly.

          What I will say though - we pay out affiliate payments on the first few days of the month - and I love doing it. I especially like it when someone's had a good month and are getting a larger than usual paymen.
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Originally Posted by jigsawtrading View Post

            What I will say though - we pay out affiliate payments on the first few days of the month - and I love doing it. I especially like it when someone's had a good month and are getting a larger than usual paymen.
            That's it! That's the business attitude. I always loved writing big commission checks. My first wife would often ask me "Why do you pay them so much?"

            And I would say "I'm not paying them, they are paying themselves. and for every dollar they earn, I get a dollar too".

            For people who are not business owners, and don't have salespeople (or affiliates), they cannot understand that thinking.
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      • Profile picture of the author jigsawtrading
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        I think I get it.
        I don't see a way to change their mind. They think the money you bring is their money. They don't think of it as you bringing them money. They see it as sharing their money.

        Thinking that people should just find you...and just buy...because what you have is good is an incurable illness in business. And it's nearly always fatal.

        Me? I would find another company to make a deal with. Even if you somehow convinced them to work with you, they would be a source of constant pain.

        It sounds like you know your business.
        I read this last night and had time to mull it over and you are right.

        Thanks!.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    We were a reseller and we are losing that. That's done. No reversing it. No negotiation. It's changing.
    We are being offered an affiliate deal that is not very attractive in its place.I never made much of a thing about what we had to do to get the sales. It looks like that's left them with the impression we did very little but sit back and earn.

    Thank them for their time and prior business, shake hands and let them go. That's my advice.



    Be polite - burn no bridges - just tell them their proposal doesn't interest you...if their sales take a dive, you might hear from them again. If not, no loss as you can't change that mindset.
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  • Profile picture of the author WF- Enzo
    Administrator
    Originally Posted by jigsawtrading View Post

    - That if you build the best product, people will find it, so you don't need marketing/sales anyway
    Not necessarily. Even the biggest names (Apple, Microsoft, Samsung, Nike, etc.) still need marketing and sales to sell. But again, they don't have to hard sell.
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    • Profile picture of the author jigsawtrading
      Originally Posted by WF- Enzo View Post

      Not necessarily. Even the biggest names (Apple, Microsoft, Samsung, Nike, etc.) still need marketing and sales to sell. But again, they don't have to hard sell.
      Yeah - this was not my opinion but the other side's - I learnt the hard way!
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    Another consideration to keep in mind. If a customer/client you've had a good working relationship with begins to question pricing, etc...very good chance someone is whispering in their ear.


    I've had it happen twice as a freelance writer where another person had access to my client and offered to cut rates. The client won't tell you that but may try to 're-negotiate terms'.


    Not something you can argue with...but you can be too busy to take that client back when the cheapo doesn't work out....
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    • Profile picture of the author jigsawtrading
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      Another consideration to keep in mind. If a customer/client you've had a good working relationship with begins to question pricing, etc...very good chance someone is whispering in their ear.


      I've had it happen twice as a freelance writer where another person had access to my client and offered to cut rates. The client won't tell you that but may try to 're-negotiate terms'.


      Not something you can argue with...but you can be too busy to take that client back when the cheapo doesn't work out....
      Good point - and a friend mentioned that today as well.

      Walking away from a relationship is a big step but it's easier if you aren't the only one that thinks it's one of the better options.
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  • Profile picture of the author VetsForCauses
    I've rarely "sold" anything. From B2B to working in a rent to own to my own store. People come to you looking for something, or you've set your hook and they bit.

    I have always used the old FAB statements, Features, Advantages, Benefits.

    The feature of this comment is that it is short, but informational.
    The advantage is that it is a fast learn.
    The benefit is that you can use this short read, but informational, comment as a guide over and over and over.

    You make them WANT it, or, have your back up products ready for when they don't want that. If you're targeting their needs properly it's something that they will want anyway.
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    • Profile picture of the author jigsawtrading
      Originally Posted by VetsForCauses View Post

      I've rarely "sold" anything. From B2B to working in a rent to own to my own store. People come to you looking for something, or you've set your hook and they bit.

      I have always used the old FAB statements, Features, Advantages, Benefits.

      The feature of this comment is that it is short, but informational.
      The advantage is that it is a fast learn.
      The benefit is that you can use this short read, but informational, comment as a guide over and over and over.

      You make them WANT it, or, have your back up products ready for when they don't want that. If you're targeting their needs properly it's something that they will want anyway.
      I am pretty sure that's selling ;-)
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  • Profile picture of the author kriveculifestyle
    Originally Posted by jigsawtrading View Post

    Many moons ago, I have to admit that I had the same distrust of sales/marketing people that a lot of new business owners have.....

    - That sales people/techniques can make you buy something you don't want
    - That rapport-building techniques are bad
    - That if you build the best product, people will find it, so you don't need marketing/sales anyway
    - That commissions are a cost vs a reflection you got sales you wouldn't have otherwise got

    And so on.

    Now - this usually comes up at the point someone is paying commissions or looking at what they paid you and feeling you didn't do enough for it.

    I have found this rarely comes up at a good time. You are usually on the other side of a negotiation and that's not the point at which the other side of the table is receptive to being educated.

    Any thoughts? Seems to me like any reply you can give adds fuel to the fire until they understand that people like buying stuff.
    In my opinion selling is like recommendation. I don't sell just anything to anyone. I just offer what I have to offer and if the person on the other site feels good while hearing this offer, that good enough to close the recommendation.

    I think salesman cannot be pushy.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by kriveculifestyle View Post

      I don't sell just anything to anyone.
      I don't mean this personally, but I want to address this idea.

      You cannot just sell anything to anyone. Nobody can.

      Nobody has the power to sell somebody something they don't want to buy. This isn't dark magic. It's clear communication.

      And I continually hear this as something that's actually possible, and the "salesperson" is just too moral to do it.

      Even the best of us can only;
      Find people (or have them find us) who are likely to buy what we sell.
      Ask questions to determine if we are the right fit (or which offer is the right fit) for them.
      Explain the values that apply to them.
      Ask them to buy. Sometimes that's not even necessary.

      Of course, I explained it as though it's something easy to do. Or easy to learn.

      Now I'm going back into my cave. At 2PM, I spend an hour complaining...which is cutting into my time judging other people.
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  • Profile picture of the author Moti Ka Yaar
    You make them WANT it, or, have your back up products ready for when they don't want that. If you're targeting their needs properly it's something that they will want anyway.
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  • Profile picture of the author andyebarnes67
    I don't 'sell' anything. I recommend solutions.
    It may be semantics from the 'selling' side of the exchange, but it is a big difference in the eyes of the prospect.
    It is a well known adage in marketing that in order to 'sell', you need to offer a solution to a problem. It is also added on that you often need to create a 'perceived problem' in the mind of the prospect.
    In Internet Marketing, and especially in Affiliate Marketing, you really don't need to create a need for your product or service. You simply need to search out those who are already expressing a need for your solution. You then need to create a presence in the forum in which you find them, and recommend your solution.
    With so many affiliate programs available, you should only focus on those you have actually used yourself so that you can offer genuine recommendations and follow-up by answering any queries should they be asked.
    Treat every prospect as a friend. How often do you recommend something you have had great results from to a friend that will help them solve a problem?
    There is no need to be a 'snake oil salesman' in the modern world.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rahmatkhan
    When people are desperate for money (i.e. clients), they don't approach it like this at all. You think, "Hey, if this person will buy from me, I'll take it, because I need the money." You end up trying to convince them to buy something that maybe they shouldn't buy. And that makes you a salesperson.

    Right off the bat, you have to assume they're NOT a good fit, as much as they might be. And if they're not a good fit, you genuinely don't want to work with them.
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  • Profile picture of the author kriveculifestyle
    Originally Posted by jigsawtrading View Post

    Many moons ago, I have to admit that I had the same distrust of sales/marketing people that a lot of new business owners have.....

    - That sales people/techniques can make you buy something you don't want
    - That rapport-building techniques are bad
    - That if you build the best product, people will find it, so you don't need marketing/sales anyway
    - That commissions are a cost vs a reflection you got sales you wouldn't have otherwise got

    And so on.

    Now - this usually comes up at the point someone is paying commissions or looking at what they paid you and feeling you didn't do enough for it.

    I have found this rarely comes up at a good time. You are usually on the other side of a negotiation and that's not the point at which the other side of the table is receptive to being educated.

    Any thoughts? Seems to me like any reply you can give adds fuel to the fire until they understand that people like buying stuff.
    You can say selling is also recommending... This is how is see stuff. I recommend people my thing and if they don't like it, need it or just want it & i am not pushy.

    For me is not important that particular person buy. For me is important that people who buy from me, have value from me also.

    I am in that kind of business, that when someone buy/partner with me, then the journey starts. And i am here for them to make them as successful as they can and want be.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by kriveculifestyle View Post

      i am not pushy.
      I want to address that.

      I hear that often, as well as "I don't sell, I recommend" or "I don't sell, I let them buy".

      "I'm not pushy". Of course not. And no competent salesperson is pushy either. It's almost completely a straw man argument. Think of a successful salesman you know that is pushy.

      Can't? Neither can I.

      "I don't sell, I recommend". Yup. That's selling. And if the "recommend" part is really understood, it's high level selling.


      "I let them buy" How noble.


      For some reason, maybe different reasons...it's psychologically abhorrent to say "I'm a salesperson. I sell stuff. I use skill to find the most likely prospects, determine the best solution for the prospect, fit the offer to the prospect, and answer any questions or concerns so they feel comfortable buying from me...right now".

      Except for groups of people that revel in the idea of selling and making deals....people in sales will do anything to pretend they aren't in selling.

      In MLM, I see that maybe the most. People bending over backwards to create convoluted statements that sound like they aren't in selling. Saying "We aren't selling, we are sharing". Really? Sharing is free.

      Are you offering something, in exchange for money? You are selling.
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      • Profile picture of the author kriveculifestyle
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        I want to address that.

        I hear that often, as well as "I don't sell, I recommend" or "I don't sell, I let them buy".

        "I'm not pushy". Of course not. And no competent salesperson is pushy either. It's almost completely a straw man argument. Think of a successful salesman you know that is pushy.

        Can't? Neither can I.

        "I don't sell, I recommend". Yup. That's selling. And if the "recommend" part is really understood, it's high level selling.


        "I let them buy" How noble.


        For some reason, maybe different reasons...it's psychologically abhorrent to say "I'm a salesperson. I sell stuff. I use skill to find the most likely prospects, determine the best solution for the prospect, fit the offer to the prospect, and answer any questions or concerns so they feel comfortable buying from me...right now".

        Except for groups of people that revel in the idea of selling and making deals....people in sales will do anything to pretend they aren't in selling.

        In MLM, I see that maybe the most. People bending over backwards to create convoluted statements that sound like they aren't in selling. Saying "We aren't selling, we are sharing". Really? Sharing is free.

        Are you offering something, in exchange for money? You are selling.
        In my country where i live people don't want to hear word selling. It's more acceptable to say i recommend.

        At the end all company need sales in order to stay "alive". How are they making money?

        At the end, it's the most important thing that they find a way their costumers are satisfied, the company is satisfied and employee are satisfied.

        You can also recommend some company for example that offer extra discount for purchases. And people don't need to pay anything to get that discount. Is this also selling?

        I can say this is really a recommendation.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by kriveculifestyle View Post

          In my country where i live people don't want to hear word selling. It's more acceptable to say i recommend.
          And the word "recommend" is how an advanced salesperson approaches selling.


          Originally Posted by kriveculifestyle View Post

          You can also recommend some company for example that offer extra discount for purchases. And people don't need to pay anything to get that discount. Is this also selling?
          Technically, anything you say that increases the chance of someone buying from you is selling. Not skilled selling, but selling.

          To everyone;

          A survey last year was done by over 30,000 salespeople in dozens of different industries, different locations (In the US), and by reps with different incomes.

          The top 10% of all the salespeople (as far as income) had two things in common.

          1) They were seen as trusted advisors by their customers.
          2) They asked for, received, and sold mostly by referrals from their customer base.

          These are the same two commonalities in every industry, every location, every economy.

          And in every industry, no matter the economy, there are people making huge sums of money selling the same offers, for the same prices, to the same market.

          And one thing that struck me....the top 10% in selling, by income, earn the same amount (as a group) as the other 90% of the working reps in their company.

          So the average "Top 10% seller" earns about 9 times more than the average "other 90% salesperson.

          Where that breaks down is in the top 1% VS the others in the top 10%. Some industries have a few reps earning hundreds of times more than the average...and other industries have rather hard limits on the number of sales that can actually be made, no matter the skill level.

          For example, selling life insurance or stocks, there are salespeople earning a million dollars a year or more...just selling. But they are selling large volumes to each client.

          When I was selling vacuum cleaners in people's homes, it was considered exceptional to make 10 sales a month. My best month, I think I sold (after credit turn downs and cancellations) 24 completed personal sales.

          Like running a 3 minute mile.

          I was pretty proud of myself...until I met a lady that made 60 individual personal sales in a month.

          When I met her, we had both heard about each other. I asked "How many presentations did it take to get those 60 sales?" She said "120".

          She asked "How many presentations did it take for you to get your 24 sales?".

          I said "25".

          We both insisted that the other one was the better salesperson.

          But she won the trophy. To me, that makes it official.
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  • Profile picture of the author Cinarcinar
    you just need to choose what is good and what not , everyone trying to get money in all ways even worst ways...
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    • yes, I agree with you. People will always do different ways just to sell something for them to get or earn money. But still it is best to get or earn money in good ways.

      Yes actually you are truly correct! Without selling there's no development specifically on that certain industry. It can greatly affect the economy as well

      You nailed it, No one will get rich without selling. So we have to continue selling as long as in good ways for us to be a billionaire as well. hehe

      Yeah totally agree with you. We should not waste our time talking or negotiating to somebody who doesn't value our efforts. So Let's just move to the next page.

      Yes agree with you, now a days people tend to buy important and needed stuffs that can benefit them not only they wanted them but a necessity.
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  • Profile picture of the author PatrickTaylor1
    You know, I don't think selling is evil.

    I've been in sales for years and I actually APPRECIATE people in sales who do it well. Sometimes I'll even buy what they're selling just because I want to encourage them.

    Believe it or not, when I go to a shopping mall I try to make eye contact with the people manning the kiosks in the aisles. I like to see who's in sales and who's just biding time.

    I'll elbow my friends and point out the gal who's texting on her phone, or the guy who's reading a magazine. "They're not in sales," I'll tell them.

    The best sales person ever was the lady with the pillow thing for around your neck that you can heat up in the microwave. She snuck up on me like a ninja and threw it around my neck. Now she had me. I couldn't just walk away with her thing... unless I was a jerk. So we had a good conversation about the benefits of the thing and I bought one for my mom.

    Then there was the guy with the toy remote control helicopter. He was a great pilot. He would make that thing swoop down and hover over people's heads. He'd concentrate on people with kids. He almost ALWAYS made a sale. He was definitely a sales PRO.

    Then there was the guy selling Seacret skin products (products from the Dead Sea). I bought a couple of hundred dollars worth of gifts for the various ladies in my life.

    Personally, I love to create win-win scenarios. I never want to be known as the guy who could sell ice to Eskimos. If you sell things to people they don't want or are a bad value, your customers will come to resent you. I want to be known as a problem solver who gives people a good value. I want to be known as a fair, honest dealer.

    If you genuinely love people and seek to help them solve problems, you'll do well in any business. People will seek you out to buy from you because they know you won't cheat them and provide them with quality service and products.

    I truly LOVE sales, not because I want to get over on people and make a lot of money by cheating them, but because I love people, I enjoy helping them, and I want them to succeed in whatever they do as well as I do.

    As far as how to deal with people who think selling is evil... You know, I just don't deal with them. If someone thinks that I'm there for some nefarious reason, to harm them financially, or cheat them, I either put them at ease, or determine that we are not a good fit and move on.

    You know, when I was newer in sales I felt I had to close every client no matter what. As I've matured, I realize that I don't WANT every customer. It's a two-way street. Clients who think you're "out to get them" or are always trying to chip away at your commission, or think sales people are evil and underhanded will only add to your daily stress.

    So, that's my two cents on that. Fire clients who think sales people are evil.

    All the best,

    Pat
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  • Profile picture of the author tnob
    I tend to agree with others saying "move on". If the client is thinking you are not worth it to them, that will continue to snowball to eventually cutting you off/out completely.

    I use to be a Realtor. One of the worst experiences was pitching my services to a prospect, and at the end of the conversation, have the prospect try to negotiate down my commission. Usually, this type of person was the same person who would also want me to list their house for a price that was way more than what I thought I could sell it for. As a starving newbie, I agreed to lower my commission and to list their house for way more than it was worth. The end result was that I could never sell the house because no one wanted to pay that much, and so I lost the listing after months of work. Years later, I learned that I spent more time and energy on that one client which resulted in $0 commission, than with any other clients who were willing to pay me for my services and be realistic about their sales price. That client was never going to be happy with my services. So I learned quickly to just say "thank you for your time" when a prospect did not value my services and move on to someone who could see the value.

    As a Realtor, I also went through periods of thinking I was "an evil salesperson" or similar thoughts. But when I would provide value to someone, and they would genuinely thank me for helping them, that would make it all worthwhile. I agree with @PatrickTaylor1 that loving people is where it starts. If you genuinely want to help others, the business will come.

    I read a book a few years ago called "To Sell is Human" by Daniel Pink. I highly recommend this book. One of the core themes in the book is that whether or not we have the job title of "Salesman", we are all selling to someone. We all have a personal brand that we are selling. If you are an employee of a company, you start selling why you should be hired when you apply and interview for the job. Once hired, you are constantly selling why you should remain employed by the company. You are selling your services to the company.

    I don't think that sharing that with a disgruntled client in the heat of negotiation is necessarily the best idea lol. However, I do think it is good for us all to hear.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
    Without "Selling" (Or "Exchange" or "Bartering") ... We would have never developed or evolved as a Species and wouldn't have a developed Society.

    (Or something like that. Lol)
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  • Only deal with affiliate networks that already have a proven track record of consistently paying affiliates. And yes it is quite odd to me for a vendor to even suggest -let alone actually say- that paying an affiliate commission is a cost?!
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  • Profile picture of the author visimedia
    on my experiences, mostly people are seeing things from their perspective n what they look for.
    if they usually think negatively about sometihng, they'll end up seeing something negatively.

    in short different paradigm, different mindset.


    Not sure whats the reason behind that, maybe they got bad experiences prior with sales people or something.


    Some people do have that negative thoughts on selling, but lots of positive mindset on sales people too, whether it's online or offline.


    what do you think?
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by visimedia View Post



      Not sure whats the reason behind that,
      The reason the majority see selling as evil is that's how it's always portrayed in movies....

      And...Every encounter with a salesperson is a story that is told...over and over again. And we ae always either the victim or the hero of our own stories.

      If you always play the victim, the salesperson you describe is positioned as the offender.

      if you are the hero, you either beat the evil salesperson, or you brag about the deal you got.

      And...maybe most important...the vast majority of people have tried some form of selling at least once in their life...and failed miserably. So they have to protect their self esteem.

      So...they either become the virtuous hero "I couldn't sell, I'm just too honest. I only want to help people".....or they are the victim "That company wanted me to be unethical. I hope they get caught".

      Very very seldom do you hear someone say "You know, it was a great product, backed by a great company that gave me fantastic training. I was just terrible at selling. And after a few months, they finally fired me".

      Nope. We are always the victim or the hero, never the villain.
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      • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


        Very very seldom do you hear someone say "You know, it was a great product, backed by a great company that gave me fantastic training. I was just terrible at selling. And after a few months, they finally fired me".

        Nope. We are always the victim or the hero, never the villain.
        I met my girlfriend at the US Open, I said hi based on her looks and how well she played, I asked her out after she told me that she was a sales rep for AT&T broadband and that she was probably going to get fired soon because she can't sell.

        She is sooo bad at it though that it's almost ludicrous. She was with me once when I got a call and then that call turned into a meeting and a pitch...and a sale. She must have gone to sleep with her eyes open because she did not even realize that I was done, been paid, and was ready to leave.

        I, trying to be impressive, asked her what she thought.
        Her response was... That's selling? OMG that's boring! Cant, you find something better to do?
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  • Profile picture of the author Ram Meena
    I think sales is the only JOB in this world that creates World's Billionaires. Everyone sales whether is Bill Gates or Elon Musk.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tiaxxx
    but how to make people think you are not a scammer? today evveryone looks like a scammer, and registered on a faceook group ends with tons of scam messenges - how to looks like you are better then them?
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Tiaxxx View Post

      but how to make people think you are not a scammer? today evveryone looks like a scammer, and registered on a faceook group ends with tons of scam messenges - how to looks like you are better then them?
      The answer is to not act like a scammer. Don't pitch like a scammer. Don't use the language of a scammer...don't make offers that look like scams....and don't scam.

      Everyone doesn't look like a scammer.
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      "Be kind. For everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle".....Ian Maclaren
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      • Profile picture of the author Tiaxxx
        It sound easy, but I add post where I offer money for online consultation, I offer that USD upfront and still my post get rejected as a scam on facebook becouse somoene just report me Mayby I should each facebook account for each country?
        Now I want to be honest and use my personal facebook account but maybe this is a problem becous I have slavic name and surname and this is not good on american facebook?
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by Tiaxxx View Post

          It sound easy, but I add post where I offer money for online consultation, I offer that USD upfront and still my post get rejected as a scam on facebook becouse somoene just report me Mayby I should each facebook account for each country?
          Now I want to be honest and use my personal facebook account but maybe this is a problem becous I have slavic name and surname and this is not good on american facebook?
          It isn't you name or where you are from. It's the offer. It must have been against Facebook's rules.
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          One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

          "Be kind. For everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle".....Ian Maclaren
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  • Question is: what reliable steppin' stones into the fyootyure you gaht?

    For sure this is a trooly filosofical question -- but also a necessary day to day conundrum.

    Steps forward, always -- whomsoevah we are.

    Question is ... from whence an' from how an' from whom we choosin' our dream miraculature?

    Figure I dropped this illo way back, but muh hair ain't advanced in stylin' none ...



    NOTE

    Nevah, evah forget the frickin' cat.
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    Lightin' fuses is for blowin' stuff togethah.

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  • Profile picture of the author The Milk Man
    I think its very specific to the situation. I would not want to get myself into a situation where at the negotiating table another party sees my time and effort invaluable enough to not be part of the deal.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    Now I want to be honest and use my personal facebook account but maybe this is a problem becous I have slavic name and surname and this is not good on american facebook?

    The questions you have asked here indicate you are looking for ways to 'look like' you are in the US...am I wrong about that? It's likely not your name and surname - but your actual location that is the sticking point.
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    Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.

    My mind still thinks I'm 25.
    My body thinks my mind is an idiot.
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  • Profile picture of the author AffiliateAware
    The great thing about this business is that you can attract the kind of people you enjoy working with. If they think selling is evil, let them think that way. It's their right to believe in what they want. There are thousands of people which enjoy buying new products, including me, and not everyone thinks sales people or selling in particular is a bad thing. What I dislike however is when people believe you can sell more by using tactics, secrets, pitches and things that really push people off instead of pulling them towards buying and making a purchase.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by AffiliateAware View Post

      The great thing about this business is that you can attract the kind of people you enjoy working with. If they think selling is evil, let them think that way. It's their right to believe in what they want.
      Of course, that the best way to think. And attract (or find) the prospects that you will want to work with, and repel the ones you don't.

      Now that I said that, if you are getting a reasonably large percentage of comments that say that you are scamming...

      It isn't them, it's you.
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      One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

      "Be kind. For everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle".....Ian Maclaren
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  • Profile picture of the author Desireseekr
    If the product your promoting is actually good. You wont need to sell it. Those usually sell themselves.
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    • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
      Originally Posted by Desireseekr View Post

      If the product your promoting is actually good. You wont need to sell it. Those usually sell themselves.
      Saying that pretty much shows everyone that you don't know anything about sales or promotions.
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      Selling Ain't for Sissies!
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Desireseekr View Post

      If the product your promoting is actually good. You wont need to sell it. Those usually sell themselves.
      I get why you say that. I hear it often from non-salespeople.

      But I've never seen an offer that was so good...so awesome...that nobody had to explain it, show the benefits, build the value, and accept the money.

      The possible exception is a song. But a song is not an offer.

      You said "If the product your promoting is actually good...."

      Promoting means selling.
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      "Be kind. For everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle".....Ian Maclaren
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    • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
      Originally Posted by Desireseekr View Post

      If the product your promoting is actually good. You wont need to sell it. Those usually sell themselves.
      Often even the best products have to be "sold."

      Everyone (OK -- well not everyone) loves KFC ... However Cornel Sanders went through over 1009 rejections before someone invested. There are countless other examples. IMO -- there's nothing wrong with "selling" ... Provided that it's done ethically. (As in a fair exchange.)

      For example, I didn't particularly like someone foreign contacting me about my Wifi deal, however I thought I would give him some time and now I don't have to worry about running out of data any month. There's a saying:

      "People don't like to be sold to, but they love to buy."
      : )
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      "Each problem has hidden in it an opportunity so powerful that it literally dwarfs the problem. The greatest success stories were created by people who recognized a problem and turned it into an opportunity."―Joseph Sugarman
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    • Profile picture of the author WF- Enzo
      Administrator
      Not always applicable.

      Originally Posted by Desireseekr View Post

      If the product your promoting is actually good. You wont need to sell it. Those usually sell themselves.
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  • Profile picture of the author DeniseDArteaga
    What is a person's motive for something he does, then you can see his motive.
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  • Profile picture of the author groupbuyseo1
    I think sales is the only JOB in this world that creates World's Billionaires. Everyone sales whether is Bill Gates or Elon Musk.
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  • Profile picture of the author Atif Anis Khan
    It's like a double edge sword, some people will say that they made us buy stuff we never thought we needed but it made a big difference for us now while others will complain.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Atif Anis Khan View Post

      It's like a double edge sword, some people will say that they made us buy stuff we never thought we needed but it made a big difference for us now while others will complain.
      How in the world can someone make you buy something?
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      "Be kind. For everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle".....Ian Maclaren
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      • Profile picture of the author Atif Anis Khan
        Don't you believe that?
        That's what telemarketers used to do before.
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        • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
          Originally Posted by Atif Anis Khan View Post

          Don't you believe that?
          That's what telemarketers used to do before.
          No we did not. You are describing brainwashing.
          We only fit the product to your needs, whatever they happened to be.
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          Selling Ain't for Sissies!
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by Atif Anis Khan View Post

          Don't you believe that?
          That's what telemarketers used to do before.
          Assuming you are replying to me. Telemarketers do not possess psychic super powers.

          The easiest thing to get rid of is a phone call. You don't even have to say anything, just hang up.

          And nobody, no matter how gifted at selling, and make you buy something you don't want.

          What it is possible to do is show you why you should buy something you weren't considering before the call. But you still want it. Selling is in large part, making you aware of what's available as an option.

          Because.......It's impossible to want something before you are aware of it.

          I think the problem here is the difference between selling, so the person wants what you sell.....VS....making them buy. You cannot make people buy what they do not want to buy. It's absolutely possible (I did it for decades) to present something so it becomes something they want....and they freely choose to buy.
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          One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

          "Be kind. For everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle".....Ian Maclaren
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  • Profile picture of the author maxsi
    Selling is evil? ...I can see it depends from the readers, in practice if you get NO-targeted readers for your business then everything will be hard.

    We got $35K so far with a simple group, and it's the perfect case on which people are targeted and they think " Selling is perfectly natural by us".
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  • Selling is helpful for every business minded people. Don't coerce people who think selling is not a good way to achieve access. When you are selling it is progressive, it makes your business grow everyday, not all however mostly. Selling helps create a better future, not just your own future but for the future of everyone that surrounds you. There's no bad or evil in selling just pursue and continue what you have started as long it can benefits you and the people you care for. But take note, You must to do it in a persuasive manner and through a great service and lastly it should be in a clean way.
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    I build high-converting landing page to attract sales and increase brand awareness : https://www.convertmission.com

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  • Profile picture of the author Jordan Stark
    When people believe that selling is evil, what do they believe about buying?

    Anyone that equates selling with thievery is an idiot and you don't want those people buying anything from you because they will be the ones that issue chargebacks.
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  • Profile picture of the author edgeaddons
    Selling is helpful for every business minded people.
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  • Profile picture of the author Vickie Beard
    Sales staff should start from the perspective of customer needs and understand what they need instead of what they want to sell. This may be easier to open the heart of customers.
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  • Profile picture of the author abulkashemhp
    Banned
    I don't think so!
    I'd love to hear some solid and legit contentions FOR selling as a decent and good thing on the off chance that you really trust it to be so. And furthermore, is ALL selling acceptable? A few items are simply awful; a few administrations are a sham. Do you (or anybody you know) simply switch that side off and center around the chase? (appears to be this is normally depicted in films unfortunately. the douche wolf of divider road type character gives selling a terrible name). Have you battled with this inclination yourself or would you say you were consistently an alpha executioner from the beginning?
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  • Profile picture of the author Keith Scheafer
    Here is what I do .......... exactly there are too many people that do know why so why would you waste your time trying to convince someone it's not evil. Serve the ones you can help, surround yourself with like-minded people and you will never have that ridiculous question to deal with, Hi I'm Keith and I am New here
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    • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
      Great point Keith: Being around like-minded People is important for sure.

      Welcome to The Forum, by the way. : )
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      "Each problem has hidden in it an opportunity so powerful that it literally dwarfs the problem. The greatest success stories were created by people who recognized a problem and turned it into an opportunity."―Joseph Sugarman
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