Marketing vs Sales - Which Skill Is More Important for an Entrepreneur?

115 replies
Fellows,

I started my lawn care business which made me keenly aware of the importance of marketing & sales. And since my time is somewhat limited, I wanted to ask you guys which skill is more important for an entrepreneur, and which should they work to develop first?

I've got limited time, so I'd like to center my learning aroudn the skill with the biggest impact first. So which is more important for your own business?
#entrepreneur #important #marketing #sales #skill
  • Profile picture of the author Subhodip Das
    Marketing is the process of showing off your stuff and talking about how your product is unique and useful for the target audience. Learn about digital marketing concepts and how they work, also implement them one by one. Start with listing your business on google. Search for google digital garage and learn the basic concepts. There are so many free online resources that can guide you to become skilful in SEO. So start working and ask questions.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jamell
    Branding yourself is the key because you have to know how to build relationship and trust with people .With that being said I think both skills compliment each other .If you can't close how will you make sales ?
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  • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
    Originally Posted by funnelmania View Post

    I started my lawn care business which made me keenly aware of the importance of marketing & sales. And since my time is somewhat limited, I wanted to ask you guys which skill is more important for an entrepreneur, and which should they work to develop first?

    I've got limited time, so I'd like to center my learning aroudn the skill with the biggest impact first. So which is more important for your own business?
    At the beginning, your lawn care business is going to be driven by customer referrals, so be sure to do a great job - and ask for recommendations/testimonials. If your time is limited, that's what you should be concentrating on.
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    You can't have sales without marketing.

    You can have marketing without sales if your marketing is bad.

    To make more sales, you need to market more.

    If you set your marketing up to produce sales...which all marketing should...sales will follow.

    You can't work on sales without marketing...there I said it again
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    • Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      You can't have sales without marketing.

      You can have marketing without sales if your marketing is bad.

      To make more sales, you need to market more.

      If you set your marketing up to produce sales...which all marketing should...sales will follow.

      You can't work on sales without marketing...there I said it again
      I own a marketing agency, IMO for an entrepreneur, sales skills come first. You can do anything if you have selling skills, including hiring a marketing expert, or building up your capital for one, or convincing one to work with you for a share of profits, or whatever. Also why salesmen are paid more usually, AND are more likely to become entrepreneurs, statistically speaking.

      The way I see things, marketing is sales multiplied... you take the same message you used to deliver in person, and have an ad do it for you.

      And you can make money with effective salesmanship and zero marketing... even if you're literally just knocking on everyone's door and seeing what you could help them with. Sure, it's mighty inefficient, but everyone's got to start somewhere.

      When I started my agency, I just went on forums to build relationships and used connections with previous clients from when I had been a freelancer to pull in business, including referrals. It was 100% salesmanship, I would say. I didn't even think much about marketing, positioning, or what not. I'm the first to say that I didn't have a unique position when I started out... literarily did what everyone else did.

      I just focused on building relationships with people whom I could help at some point. A lot of sales are made based on relationships, and less so on the "actual" benefits. And once the relationship is there, the sale is much easier. You might ask "so why did they buy from you?" and the answer is because I was there, they trusted me, and it was easy. But they could have bought from anyone else, sure. They'd just need to search for them, make sure they know what they're talking about, and so on, so a lot harder.
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      • Profile picture of the author max5ty
        Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post



        And you can make money with effective salesmanship and zero marketing... even if you're literally just knocking on everyone's door and seeing what you could help them with. Sure, it's mighty inefficient, but everyone's got to start somewhere.

        When I started my agency, I just went on forums to build relationships and used connections with previous clients from when I had been a freelancer to pull in business, including referrals. It was 100% salesmanship, I would say. I didn't even think much about marketing, positioning, or what not. I'm the first to say that I didn't have a unique position when I started out... literarily did what everyone else did.
        Knocking on doors IS marketing.

        Building relationships IS marketing.

        Connections with previous clients IS marketing.

        Referrals IS marketting.

        Sounds like you were doing a lot of marketing...but maybe you're confused about what marketing is?
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        • Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

          Knocking on doors IS marketing.

          Building relationships IS marketing.

          Connections with previous clients IS marketing.

          Referrals IS marketting.

          Sounds like you were doing a lot of marketing...but maybe you're confused about what marketing is?

          Yup. I was thinking that all the strategies she was talking about are actually marketing.

          In fact, I think all strategies in selling is actually marketing.

          For example; knocking on a door is marketing. What you say when they come to the door is selling.

          But writing a script about what you say is marketing. practicing the script is marketing.


          And after all, we are talking about lawn services, not selling jets.

          A good ad, the strategy of working referrals...and as long as you are a decent person......you should get most of the sales that are possible.

          Marketing can do most of the heavy lifting for you. but you still have to talk to people, even if it's answering the phone. So selling is involved.
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          • Profile picture of the author max5ty
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            Yup. I was thinking that all the strategies she was talking abut are actually marketing.

            In fact, I think all strategies in selling is actually marketing.

            For example; knocking on a door is marketing. What you say when they come to the door is selling.

            But writing a script about what you say is marketing. practicing the script is marketing.


            And after all, we are talking about lawn services, not selling jets.

            A good ad, the strategy of working referrals...and as long as you are a decent person......you should get most of the sales that are possible.

            Marketing can do most of the heavy lifting for you. but you still have to talk to people, even if it's answering the phone. So selling is involved.
            I like to say: Leading a horse to water is marketing...getting him to drink is sales
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            • Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

              I like to say: Leading a horse to water is marketing...getting him to drink is sales
              And I like to say that making a horse thirsty is selling....but finding thirsty horses is marketing.

              It's true, I really like saying that.
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              "Those who know that they are profound strive for clarity. Those who would like to seem profound to the crowd strive for obscurity" Friedrich Nietzsche
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              • Profile picture of the author max5ty
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                And I like to say that making a horse thirsty is selling....but finding thirsty horses is marketing.

                It's true, I really like saying that.
                This is good, I like that.

                Then there's the other saying about a horse...

                just kidding. That last drink might be starting to hit me haha.

                Anyways, have a good holiday.

                You're one of the smartest people I know when it comes to selling and I love your posts because they're always full of good information
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                • Originally Posted by max5ty View Post


                  You're one of the smartest people I know when it comes to selling and I love your posts because they're always full of good information

                  Right back at you.

                  I just want to say that I'm impressed with several of the main contributors in the Offline Forum.

                  Some of the people here are real heavy hitters.

                  And to be fair, the others know who they are.
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                  "Those who know that they are profound strive for clarity. Those who would like to seem profound to the crowd strive for obscurity" Friedrich Nietzsche
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        • Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

          Knocking on doors IS marketing.

          Building relationships IS marketing.

          Connections with previous clients IS marketing.

          Referrals IS marketting.

          Sounds like you were doing a lot of marketing...but maybe you're confused about what marketing is?
          Just out of curiosity, how do you define marketing, and how do you define sales?

          To my mind building relationships, referrals, connections with previous clients, that's all sales. It's literarily the job description of a salesman, NOT a marketer. Imo, a marketer does things like positioning, product placement, advertising, etc.
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          • Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

            Just out of curiosity, how do you define marketing, and how do you define sales?

            To my mind building relationships, referrals, connections with previous clients, that's all sales. It's literarily the job description of a salesman, NOT a marketer. Imo, a marketer does things like positioning, product placement, advertising, etc.
            You didn't ask me, but I'll answer, if I may.

            Marketing is everything anyone does to build a business, that doesn't include actually talking to a potential buyer.

            Selling is actually talking to a potential buyer.

            Generally, but not always, all the marketing is done before the actual selling takes place. Marketing sets up the sale. And of course, you can get people to buy without selling, just marketing. Anytime someone buys at a large retail store, or online, they are buying because of the marketing.

            I've been a salesman for over 40 years. a good one. But my income saw it's biggest jumps when I started incorporating marketing principles to selling.
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            "Those who know that they are profound strive for clarity. Those who would like to seem profound to the crowd strive for obscurity" Friedrich Nietzsche
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          • Profile picture of the author max5ty
            Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

            Just out of curiosity, how do you define marketing, and how do you define sales?

            To my mind building relationships, referrals, connections with previous clients, that's all sales. It's literarily the job description of a salesman, NOT a marketer. Imo, a marketer does things like positioning, product placement, advertising, etc.
            I've mentioned a couple of times on here over the years that I have a Bachelor Of Science in Marketing...so maybe to me the concept is simple, but I can understand where others may be confused...

            Simply put: Marketing is finding prospects...sales are taking those prospects and turning them into customers.

            Let's say tomorrow you get up and say to yourself, "I'm going out today and selling my landing page idea to business owners door to door".

            First, I think mindset plays a huge part in success.

            So, first of all, you're not going to sell anything to anyone until you find a prospect that is interested. You're marketing until you find a prospect.

            Now let's say after about 81 places, Betty says she's interested...now you take Betty (a prospect) and turn her into a customer (sales).

            You can't sell anyone anything until you find a prospect that's willing to buy...and you can't find a prospect that's willing to buy until you do marketing.

            I think a lot of failures come from people trying to sell to people that were never prospects.

            So I'll say it again...marketing is finding prospects that are interested...sales is taking those prospects and turning them into customers.

            Once you understand the difference you'll have more success in your business.

            So back to the original post...which is more important marketing or sales...once you understand you have no sales without marketing things get easier.

            I'm keeping it simple because frankly a lot of understanding the difference has to do with what level of business you're working with. Big companies with a marketing and sales dept. understand the difference...

            mom and pops get confused sometimes

            Added: Good answer Claude. I think we were both answering at the same time
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            • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
              Originally Posted by max5ty View Post


              Simply put: Marketing is finding prospects...sales are taking those prospects and turning them into customers.


              So, first of all, you're not going to sell anything to anyone until you find a prospect that is interested. You're marketing until you find a prospect.
              ^^^^This

              PLUS >>>(from Claude) Marketing is everything anyone does to build a business, that doesn't include actually talking to a potential buyer.

              Selling is actually talking to a potential buyer.

              And that famous Gary Halbert saying, give me a starving crowd, that is where I'll put my food stand (or something similar).

              Interested Prospect....potential buyer....one that is hungry for what you offer.

              Sometimes, even an interested prospect needs be pushed off the fence, which is where selling skills enter. If they WANT it, and know about it, often they buy...but sometimes the sale begins when the prospect says no.

              And NO is often a knee jerk reaction to any attempt to sell us something.

              The OP is starting some sort of a lawn care business, we don't know what that involves or includes. But there have been several excellent posts to help kick start that business.

              Concentration of prospects makes delivery of service easier, efficient and hopefully more profitable.

              WHO and where the prospect or targert market is will play a part in the marketing and determine the sales approach.

              If more Warriors spent time on determining who their prospects are, where they are at, HOW they want to present the offer to them, when and where...

              then almost all new Warriors have a template for any business they want to start, online or off.

              I see a lot of scraggly lawn care guys on the other side of town...but in the upscale areas, where they get more moolah, I see neat, uniformed, non-smoking lawn care professionals. Room for both I guess, so that might come into play too. I would have a tendency to go where there is more money to spend on such things and provide a superior service.

              GordonJ
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              • Profile picture of the author Odahh
                Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

                ^^^^This


                I see a lot of scraggly lawn care guys on the other side of town...but in the upscale areas, where they get more moolah, I see neat, uniformed, non-smoking lawn care professionals. Room for both I guess, so that might come into play too. I would have a tendency to go where there is more money to spend on such things and provide a superior service.

                GordonJ
                Superior or unique service to those with money to spend. There is a lot of great information in this thread. How much of it applies to the person starting out.

                The real marketing for a doer is the look they have and the way they perform the services. And how comfortable the customers are dealing with them.
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                • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                  Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

                  There is a lot of great information in this thread. How much of it applies to the person starting out.
                  THIS is an interesting question... and to answer that I would say most of it does not apply to someone first starting. Understanding a potential clients who what where when and why is next level marketing.. you have to have experience and data behind those concepts. Just starting? you may have a clue on some of it, but generally speaking as time and experience come into play you more often than not will find your conceived notions of a perfect client were wrong from the get go. And I say there is nothing wrong with that... it happens to all of us. Read this thread and everyone here is pretty much saying these ideas and concepts didnt all of the sudden happen... it happened over a course of time.

                  So let me throw this into the direction of the OP - just starting a lawn care business. This happens to be a market I understand very well.

                  Lets start with Client selection. Has NOTHING to do with how much money you make from a yard etc, and EVERYTHING to do with the equipment you have. A guy with a couple of 21" push mowers is probably not going to be doing 1 acre plus estates, and a guy with a 72" zero turn is probably not going to be doing small postage stamp city yards with a 36" gate to the back yard. IDEAL is dependent on the size equipment you have.

                  A GENERAL rule of thumb in lawn care is to make $100 per hour per person on the crew. Just yourself, you want to be making $100 an hour. you and a helper, you want to be producing $200 an hour. 4 man crew and you need to be producing $400 ah hour.

                  The biggest variable for success is DENSITY as GordonJ pointed out. You want to be able to pull up on a house and without moving the truck and trailer mow 3, 4 , 8 yards al at once. I have a guy that I do marketing for that makes 2 stops per day and 2 of the 5 days he works the 2 stops are in the same development. His entire route is within a 5 mile circle. He has 2 2 man crews so 4 in total and they produce $3000 per day. Works out to about $93 per man hour. The properties he does have no fences and he operates 61" mowers.

                  Another guy just does postage stamps, and he has push mowers and a 36" stand on. 2 guy crew, his routes are within a 10 mile radius is average yard takes 10 minutes to cut at $40 a cut so he is making about $110 a man hour.

                  A third crew does wide open commercial work only. 72 decks 3 to a crew, and each crew is routed in excess of $2400 a day 5 days a week - he has I believe 8 crews in total. He sits right at the $100 per man hour threshold.

                  What I am trying to point out is that regardless of the equipment or what side of town you are on or uniforms and non smoking vs cut off sleeves and chain smoking, the ability to earn money is dang near equal.

                  When you ( the OP ) are marketing, be it fliers or facebook ads or whatever it is, there is a bit of a trick. SET EXPECTATIONS. its 2pm on a sunny day and someone calls for a quote..and guess what? your on the mower and dont answer...and neither does any other guy - people get all disgruntled and angry. communicate a time of day you take sales call say 6 to 8pm and answer the phone. You are then clearly defining WORK and SALES - and you arent the guy that doesn't answer, or return calls.

                  Understand your equipment and what type of jobs it is best suited for and target those areas. Start with Gotprint.com and get door hangers and hit the neighborhoods that meet your requirements. I would suggest starting probably mid February, and again 1st of March and then middle March.

                  Depending on where you live.... you MIGHT be able to see the tell tale signs that a house is professionally cut ( stripes being the best giveaway ) but just hit each and every house. The first year in an area, you will get SOME work, but probably not enough to keep you going. Try an get to an area 2 times a week, over time, you will pick up more work. Maybe 2 or 3 to start, and 10 plus by the end of the season. do that in 2 3 or5 differnt neighborhoods and your next year will start to look really good.

                  WE can sit here and talk about WHAT WHY and HOW and all that stuff... but the OP is cutting grass.. an Ideal customer is one with #1 a yard, and #2 a yard that fits with the equipment he/she is using. This isnt rocket science, its not even selling.. its being at the right place at the right time.

                  The biggest shift I have made for my Lawncare clients is the setting of communication expectations... dont call me during the day, I am cutting grass, call me in the early evening and I am able to talk then. Clearly define the time for work,and the time for aquiring new clients.

                  Hope that Helps!
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                  • Profile picture of the author DABK
                    Once upon a time, I owned a real estate appraising business. I did not know about setting expectations. But it was busy, all my competitors had answering machines that said: Leave a message, someone will call you back in 24 hours.


                    I hired a receptionist. That allowed me to charge 33% more per job than any of my competitors. And get it.


                    Dealing with this aspect effectively, either by setting expectations or my way, sets you apart significantly... Well, I think 33% higher price is significant, anyway.


                    And matching your equipment to the client's needs... huge.



                    There's a guy not far from where I live who cuts grass... badly. But he's busy. He's found the precise people for what he offers: his clients are older people who don't care to have a great lawn, they just don't want the city to fine them, who have yards of 50'x110' or so. The younger people cut their own grass. That's most of them... He still gets 2 or 3 houses on the same block often. Saves him a lot of time moving his equipment around.



                    There are a few other people cutting grass in the same area... Not so busy. They are mismatched by expectation and they're more advanced equipment must be a bit of a waste. They're better fit for the next door suburbs... where they do operate. But, because they bother with the one where people don't much care for perfect lawns, they have some waste.


                    The owner of one of them told me he does the lower end jobs because he wants to dominate everything for 30 miles. All the households will want perfect lawns eventually (house prices are going up). I think he's wrong. Even if he was right, he got in too soon... He's been doing the low end for at least 8 years.



                    Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                    THIS is an interesting question... and to answer that I would say most of it does not apply to someone first starting. Understanding a potential clients who what where when and why is next level marketing.. you have to have experience and data behind those concepts. Just starting? you may have a clue on some of it, but generally speaking as time and experience come into play you more often than not will find your conceived notions of a perfect client were wrong from the get go. And I say there is nothing wrong with that... it happens to all of us. Read this thread and everyone here is pretty much saying these ideas and concepts didnt all of the sudden happen... it happened over a course of time.

                    So let me throw this into the direction of the OP - just starting a lawn care business. This happens to be a market I understand very well.

                    Lets start with Client selection. Has NOTHING to do with how much money you make from a yard etc, and EVERYTHING to do with the equipment you have. A guy with a couple of 21" push mowers is probably not going to be doing 1 acre plus estates, and a guy with a 72" zero turn is probably not going to be doing small postage stamp city yards with a 36" gate to the back yard. IDEAL is dependent on the size equipment you have.

                    A GENERAL rule of thumb in lawn care is to make $100 per hour per person on the crew. Just yourself, you want to be making $100 an hour. you and a helper, you want to be producing $200 an hour. 4 man crew and you need to be producing $400 ah hour.

                    The biggest variable for success is DENSITY as GordonJ pointed out. You want to be able to pull up on a house and without moving the truck and trailer mow 3, 4 , 8 yards al at once. I have a guy that I do marketing for that makes 2 stops per day and 2 of the 5 days he works the 2 stops are in the same development. His entire route is within a 5 mile circle. He has 2 2 man crews so 4 in total and they produce $3000 per day. Works out to about $93 per man hour. The properties he does have no fences and he operates 61" mowers.

                    Another guy just does postage stamps, and he has push mowers and a 36" stand on. 2 guy crew, his routes are within a 10 mile radius is average yard takes 10 minutes to cut at $40 a cut so he is making about $110 a man hour.

                    A third crew does wide open commercial work only. 72 decks 3 to a crew, and each crew is routed in excess of $2400 a day 5 days a week - he has I believe 8 crews in total. He sits right at the $100 per man hour threshold.

                    What I am trying to point out is that regardless of the equipment or what side of town you are on or uniforms and non smoking vs cut off sleeves and chain smoking, the ability to earn money is dang near equal.

                    When you ( the OP ) are marketing, be it fliers or facebook ads or whatever it is, there is a bit of a trick. SET EXPECTATIONS. its 2pm on a sunny day and someone calls for a quote..and guess what? your on the mower and dont answer...and neither does any other guy - people get all disgruntled and angry. communicate a time of day you take sales call say 6 to 8pm and answer the phone. You are then clearly defining WORK and SALES - and you arent the guy that doesn't answer, or return calls.

                    Understand your equipment and what type of jobs it is best suited for and target those areas. Start with Gotprint.com and get door hangers and hit the neighborhoods that meet your requirements. I would suggest starting probably mid February, and again 1st of March and then middle March.

                    Depending on where you live.... you MIGHT be able to see the tell tale signs that a house is professionally cut ( stripes being the best giveaway ) but just hit each and every house. The first year in an area, you will get SOME work, but probably not enough to keep you going. Try an get to an area 2 times a week, over time, you will pick up more work. Maybe 2 or 3 to start, and 10 plus by the end of the season. do that in 2 3 or5 differnt neighborhoods and your next year will start to look really good.

                    WE can sit here and talk about WHAT WHY and HOW and all that stuff... but the OP is cutting grass.. an Ideal customer is one with #1 a yard, and #2 a yard that fits with the equipment he/she is using. This isnt rocket science, its not even selling.. its being at the right place at the right time.

                    The biggest shift I have made for my Lawncare clients is the setting of communication expectations... dont call me during the day, I am cutting grass, call me in the early evening and I am able to talk then. Clearly define the time for work,and the time for aquiring new clients.

                    Hope that Helps!
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              • Profile picture of the author art72
                Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

                [/I]
                And that famous Gary Halbert saying, give me a starving crowd, that is where I'll put my food stand (or something similar).

                Interested Prospect....potential buyer....one that is hungry for what you offer.
                Most responses have focused on marketing, strategy, or sales (i.e., communications) which is crucial to having success in any business venture, but understanding the individual, prospect, or audience's mindset is the underlying key to life and business.

                If you don't know what can remedy, solve, or sustain another or others, odds are probable you will be recreating the same mindset as someone who chooses a career in one field of expertise, which almost always means; you don't get paid unless you do the job, the project, or the fulfillment of the transaction.

                Most people work all week for one paycheck, they have to be there to get paid, and they rely heavily on someone overseeing their position, job, or career.

                Mindset is always the 1st order of business before you even sit down at the drawing board to engineer your next big idea, offering, or start selling anything... be it you sell your own time, energy, skill sets, or something created or offered by 3rd party providers/vendors.

                That dependency or reliance on others becomes most people's worst nightmare, while they surrender controls, and become groomed to being told what they are to be or become or will remain worth, when to be there, and how to do whatever it is they do as a means to receive value in the exchange(s) of time, energy, matter, or money.

                Bringing more value to the table does not have to be something you create, much of what we all seek already exists... so right after you dial in your mindset to a higher frequency of thought, the next step (*the one most people trip over) is disciplines.

                From personal experience and personal observation, most people lack the mindset and disciplines to compete on the fields of successful people, as most people are either cheerleaders or railbirds, much like the Roman-Greco days when they filled stadiums with people to cheerlead for the chaos, mayhem, and bloodshed of the gladiators.

                Those who sit in the stands may genuinely be; entertained by such barbaric arenas, but seldom (*if ever) do those in attendance turn from the show to see the guy in the skybox who orchestrated (*or helps coordinate) such events... which reveals; those in the stands not only cheerlead for the "WARRIORS" - they NEVER realize the reason they were invited to the show to begin with, which leads to my conclusion;

                If you do not see through the illusions people carry and the illusions/delusions they attempt to employ, as a means to mask their own fears - how could you be consciously-aware of the greater threat that resides above those sitting in all the seats beneath the fat guy eating cold chicken and chugging hot wine daily, for he certainly is not going without the luxuries most seek.

                Rather the audience has been subliminally programmed at the sub-conscious level with FEAR that if they do not comply, conform, or behave the way they were told, they may find themselves in the pits fighting for their lives on a daily basis. (*a.k.a. The Workforce as we call it today.)

                Yet, if the majority would awaken to the reason those events were created, they would turn around, snatch the fat guy in the skybox and free the gladiators with ease, whilst tossing the fear-mongering idiots (*War Pigs) into the pits below to feed them to the lions. The same orchestrator's who thought war would be entertaining, but more importantly; used such controls to seed the majority's minds through fear, insecurity, and the idea that non-compliance breeds punishment.

                I find these same examples throughout much of the religious dogmas as well, for if you seek knowledge - you will be punished. If you speak truth you might be crucified, strangled or burned at the stake... unless you are like Martin Luther who had a few friends back then, so he only suffered house arrest. Jesus and William Tyndale, not so fortunate as was Luther's lesser punishment.

                The approach to business or marketing has everything to do with communication. If you look throughout all documented history there is an ever-present declination of the manner we write, speak, communicate, and relate to our native tongue and the lineage of where the language originated.

                English is, like most major languages heavily rooted in Latin.

                So, I say unto thee; [B]"Provehito in Altum"/B] meaning; "reach new heights!"

                Until you can put yourself above your prospects (audiences) needs, wants, and/or desires, odds are probable you will not solve or sell enough solutions, which in turn suggests; you will continue to struggle yourself. An inversed meaning of what I heard Zig Ziglar say to 80k people at an Amway conventionin Charlotte, N.C. when I was just a 17 year old, still wet behind the ears,and that statement didn't register until 20+ years later, lol.

                So long before sales and marketing comes the mindset to identify the (*potential) threat and/or fear people possess. Lest it be you likely will not overcome whatever fear rests in you or has long been encrypted upon your sub-conscious programming.

                Just turn on the news and evaluate just how negative all their broadcasting really is, that environmental signal (*keyword being mental) embeds in the sub-conscious of the viewers, as has always been, just like what orchestrated events such as the gladiator's fighting lions in the Roman arenas. If you "do not comply" you will be fighting lions yourself. Too bad, the audience wasn't consciously aware to see who was really being abused and for who's entertainment and benefit, as it is seldom (*if ever) did those cheerleaders or railbirds ever realize the psychology used on them to create compliance, which is almost always FEAR!

                Fear is nearly always manmade and sustained by those who carry it within themselves and spread it faster than an incurable disease, never knowing they have the mind (*a pharmacy of solutions) to prescribe the remedy to others as well as prescribe their own remedy.!

                You cannot sustain success without the proper mindset, disciplines, and "the progressive pursuit of a worthy ideal", as Earl Nightingale repeatedly stated in his brilliant use of communications.

                "Hard work good, hard work fine... but first take care of head!" - Sublime

                Keep it All-Natural, whenever humanly possible!

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            • Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

              I've mentioned a couple of times on here over the years that I have a Bachelor Of Science in Marketing...so maybe to me the concept is simple, but I can understand where others may be confused...

              Simply put: Marketing is finding prospects...sales are taking those prospects and turning them into customers.
              I'm almost done with my new book, Strategic Sales Prospecting.

              The title is Sales Prospecting...but the entire content is really pure marketing......How to find people who are highly likely to buy from you.

              This is the marketing I mentioned earlier that propelled my selling. Not a single sales technique in the book. But strategies to find the prospects that are proven most likely to buy from you.


              Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post


              Interested Prospect....potential buyer....one that is hungry for what you offer.

              I see that a lot in marketing. And I understand the reasoning. But there is a different category of buyers. These are people that are highly likely to buy what you sell, but are not interested at all.

              In my four decade sales experience, most of it was seeing people that had no interest in what I was selling, and had no idea I was going to show up at their door.

              If they agreed to a presentation (for a gift...a bribe) 40% of those people bought. That day. That was nearly 100% selling, without real marketing (except for the idea of offering a gift)

              But then I did an in depth...lengthy study of who bought from me. And I discovered several triggers that made them far more likely to buy from me (and see me at all) than the general population. And I started only seeing those people. And my sales went to about 80-90%. And most of the people I called, agreed to see me....where before, it was maybe one person out of six.

              And all of this was after I had real skills in selling. At the beginning, it was far worse.

              Added later; These "Highly Likely Buyers" still needed selling. Since they weren't "interested" , they would never have contacted me. I still needed to contact them. I still needed to use my selling skills. These people didn't buy without a highly engaging presentation. But these were the people that were almost certain to buy...If I did the work.

              But that was all "Me approaching them". Outside sales. And no lead generation as marketers think of it. Just bribing them with a gift. And some basic qualifying. Even when I was seeing my "Highly likely buyers", there was no marketing to them involved. The marketing was in the selection, based on certain criteria.

              And then I opened a retail store. And then I started getting the "Interested" people....through advertising and marketing.

              In fact, just about everyone that comes through the door are ready to buy something.

              It was only a few years ago that I found salespeople who were paying for leads that were generated through marketing.

              Sort of like in Glengarry Glen Ross. The leads. The Glengarry leads.

              Coffee is for closers.
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            • Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

              I've mentioned a couple of times on here over the years that I have a Bachelor Of Science in Marketing...so maybe to me the concept is simple, but I can understand where others may be confused...

              Simply put: Marketing is finding prospects...sales are taking those prospects and turning them into customers.

              Let's say tomorrow you get up and say to yourself, "I'm going out today and selling my landing page idea to business owners door to door".

              First, I think mindset plays a huge part in success.

              So, first of all, you're not going to sell anything to anyone until you find a prospect that is interested. You're marketing until you find a prospect.

              Now let's say after about 81 places, Betty says she's interested...now you take Betty (a prospect) and turn her into a customer (sales).

              You can't sell anyone anything until you find a prospect that's willing to buy...and you can't find a prospect that's willing to buy until you do marketing.

              I think a lot of failures come from people trying to sell to people that were never prospects.

              So I'll say it again...marketing is finding prospects that are interested...sales is taking those prospects and turning them into customers.

              Once you understand the difference you'll have more success in your business.

              So back to the original post...which is more important marketing or sales...once you understand you have no sales without marketing things get easier.

              I'm keeping it simple because frankly a lot of understanding the difference has to do with what level of business you're working with. Big companies with a marketing and sales dept. understand the difference...

              mom and pops get confused sometimes

              Added: Good answer Claude. I think we were both answering at the same time
              Interesting answers from both you and Claude. Thanks.

              The way I look at things, I see marketing as being 2 things: strategy and sales at scale.

              So it's not surprising, for example, that you got the biggest change in results due to better marketing Claude - it's a way to multiply your sales many times over or increase their efficiency.

              However, I disagree that prospecting, to pick a sales term, is the same as marketing. Many salesmen have to find their own leads and they've got to do their own prospecting.

              There's another way to approach this question imo. Namely let's look at what the market values. Compensations in sales jobs will on average exceed compensations on marketing jobs.

              Why? Imo it can't be just because sales is closer to money, it is because sales is a more valuable skill.

              Also, in my experience, it's a lot more helpful for an entrepreneur to have a background and experience in sales. Because for any new business you start, you've first got to do it successfully at a small scale through sales and then explode it through marketing.

              Yes, marketing has higher leverage. But if you don't have the underlying sales aspect solved, you'll struggle. The best clients for me, as a marketing guy, are those who already sell a product successfully (they've got a proven market who wants their product or service) and are looking to scale. Marketing can offer huge results to this segment.

              But the segment who has no sales, and wants to focus on marketing from the get-go, say by running paid ads, they typically waste a lot of money trying to a market & message fit.

              Hopefully this makes some sense, very late here, but wishing you both happy holidays ahead!
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              • Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

                However, I disagree that prospecting, to pick a sales term, is the same as marketing. Many salesmen have to find their own leads and they've got to do their own prospecting.
                I always recommend that reps prospect for their own leads. Even when I had leads given to me, I found it more profitable to develop my own leads.

                1) I can qualify them to suit me, not the company.
                2) When they hear from me on the prospecting call, it's like a "First date" that starts a relationship.
                3) I know what has been said (on both ends) when I prospected myself. No surprises.
                4) Many times, the prospect says something to me that indicates that it's a waste of time, or needs further questioning, or isn't the right person to talk to. Something a marketer or lead setter wouldn't know without actually talking to the prospect.




                Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

                There's another way to approach this question imo. Namely let's look at what the market values. Compensations in sales jobs will on average exceed compensations on marketing jobs.

                Why? Imo it can't be just because sales is closer to money, it is because sales is a more valuable skill.
                My experience is that sales is paid more, because the sale is directly tracked to the salesperson's effort.

                And...I hope this comes out right....Marketing is usually considered an expense, not a profit generator. So you see large businesses with the CEO's kid in charge of marketing...or someone with no sales experience, or someone who took a college course in marketing....or someone with graphic art experience.

                And in most companies, a person in charge of marketing can hide incompetence for months, or even years. They hide behind their budget. They spend the company's money, in the hopes that "getting the name out there" helps in some nebulous way.

                But in selling? the incompetent are weeded out pretty fast. The results are easier to see...quicker to count.

                The exceptions in marketing are usually the ones working for themselves. They have to generate sales, or they starve. Or they are doing online marketing where the numbers are obvious, and it's harder to hide.
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                • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  The exceptions in marketing are usually the ones working for themselves. They have to generate sales, or they starve. Or they are doing online marketing where the numbers are obvious, and it's harder to hide.
                  I see / deal with this whole online marketing thing is different a lot... And I dont think it is. What IS different is the ability to track and optimize your marketing efforts. "Selling" online is just taking money.

                  BUT is there really a difference in the process vs offline methods? Ads are ads no matter where they are. Articles are articles no matter where they are. Live talks in person or on demand like on YouTube, one in the same.

                  Again the only separation here is that online efforts, the numbers are painfully obvious.

                  I have this conversation all the time with car dealers. People that show up during business hours, they are straight up there to buy a car/truck ( 99% of the time ) - they arent "just looking" or "Tire Kicking" Every last person that walks off that lot without a new car, there is a failure in the in person marketing aspect of the deal, to end in a "Sale".

                  There is a specific dealership I work with, they LITERALLY sell more vehicles online than they do in person - we are talking a Big 3 auto lot here. The sales team is as bad as it gets... and the online reviews absolutely reflect that. BUT where I live, if you want an X, and dont want to drive 60+ miles you have to buy it there. And a side note... I buy brand X and drive the 60+ miles - AND they are a client.

                  The issue with them specifically is they cant even get to the "Sales" aspect of the transaction... The "Marketing" part is all jacked up... like "what type of vehicle you looking for?" or "what specs do you need in that vehicle?" Just a simple "hey lets go out on the lot and look around" For the love of pete man, we are outside with a strong breeze and all I can smell is your old spice, and I damn well could have walked around the lot my damn self - do you have an X with A, B and C or not? and the answer is "Lets walk around the lot and see" And in the mean time they are showing you Z's and Y's.

                  Selling insurance... ALL marketing... you could get this or that... Term, Whole, or Universal? 100,000, 500,000 1,000,000? the whole precursor conversation is MARKETING upto and until... That will be $110 a month, is that something you want to do? THE ASK - the non sense after that is the sale. Everything else is education, benefits, features, reasons why this over the other - thats not sales online, and it sure aint offline.

                  Drive thru's like McD's ALL marketing - EXCEPT - "would you like to add a drink to that?"

                  Grocery stores? ALL Marketing

                  Home Improvement Stores? ALL marketing

                  Gas Stations
                  any store at the Mall
                  any store on main street small town USA,
                  Shoe store... You are literally telling the person "I would like to try this in a size 9 please", and they go in the back and get it - they arent selling anything - MAYBE, the added hey if you buy 2 you get one half off.... BUT that is on a big sign in the window..so is that sales? OR last minute reinforcement to marketing?

                  I am more and more getting to the point where the word "Sales" should just be removed. All a sale ( to me ) is, is the return on investment for my marketing efforts - "Sales" is just a transaction.
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                • Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  I always recommend that reps prospect for their own leads. Even when I had leads given to me, I found it more profitable to develop my own leads.

                  1) I can qualify them to suit me, not the company.
                  2) When they hear from me on the prospecting call, it's like a "First date" that starts a relationship.
                  3) I know what has been said (on both ends) when I prospected myself. No surprises.
                  4) Many times, the prospect says something to me that indicates that it's a waste of time, or needs further questioning, or isn't the right person to talk to. Something a marketer or lead setter wouldn't know without actually talking to the prospect.
                  So shall we then say that a salesman engaged in prospecting, qualifying, etc. isn't really selling, but marketing?


                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  My experience is that sales is paid more, because the sale is directly tracked to the salesperson's effort.

                  And...I hope this comes out right....Marketing is usually considered an expense, not a profit generator. So you see large businesses with the CEO's kid in charge of marketing...or someone with no sales experience, or someone who took a college course in marketing....or someone with graphic art experience.

                  And in most companies, a person in charge of marketing can hide incompetence for months, or even years. They hide behind their budget. They spend the company's money, in the hopes that "getting the name out there" helps in some nebulous way.

                  But in selling? the incompetent are weeded out pretty fast. The results are easier to see...quicker to count.

                  The exceptions in marketing are usually the ones working for themselves. They have to generate sales, or they starve. Or they are doing online marketing where the numbers are obvious, and it's harder to hide.
                  I do agree that in a corporate setting, incompetence in marketing is easier to hide for sure.

                  However, I'd like to point out that those who do marketing for themselves most frequently resort to direct response marketing. If we look at Scientific Advertising or any of the classic direct response texts, we will see that direct response, even though it bears the word "marketing" after it, is more often than not associated with salesmanship rather than traditional marketing. In fact, Claude Hopkins calls it "sales in print" -> the goal is sales, not just leads/prospects.

                  Now, there is a certain bias against salesmanship - many people see it as yucky. This gives rise to both brand advertising, and the content marketing that we see on social media. And it is true... in industries that are very competitive and crowded, and there is little differentiation, then you've got to "build a brand", content market, and all the rest... because you can't do direct response. It just doesn't work. It's seen as dishonest and manipulative, the same way straight up sales would be seen.

                  BUT - if you're after a hungry market, as Halbert would say, straight up sales (or direct response - sales in print) will work.

                  The way I look at it, marketing can have a much bigger effect on an already established business. But if you're new, the first thing you need to figure out is how to get sales... how to go after a hungry market and provide for them. Sure, you could, say, open a YouTube channel, and provide value (ie, marketing), build an audience, and then start selling stuff to them at some future point... But that's only because you chose the wrong market IMO... so you can't sell to them straight up.

                  @savidge4 mentioned Gary V's Jab Jab Jab Right Hook book below. It's very pertinent. The jabbing is marketing. The right hook is sales. But you DO NOT need jabbing if you're not in a very crowded niche or you don't struggle with differentiation. If you're a coach or what not, sure... with coaches sprouting like mushrooms these days, then you'll need to do a lot of jabbing to right hook.

                  Think about me sending a direct mail letter to a hot list of people, selling a $9 report. I'm SELLING - there is no marketing there that's distinct from the salesmanship. I am not "providing value", I am not "creating content", I am not "raising awareness", I am not "building a brand"... I am making sales.

                  Imo, this skill - which I see as salesmanship, is the number one skill a new entrepreneur should learn.
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                  • Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

                    So shall we then say that a salesman engaged in prospecting, qualifying, etc. isn't really selling, but marketing?.
                    I haven't looked up the dictionary definition of Marketing or Selling.

                    But if you are speaking directly to a prospect, over the phone or in person...to me that is selling. Writing a great sales letter is marketing.

                    If a salesperson is prospecting a qualifying in front of the buyer, or ever the phone...that's selling. Qualifying by segmenting your list is marketing. Sending e-mails is marketing. Exchanging e-mails in a conversation may be a form of selling.




                    Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

                    Think about me sending a direct mail letter to a hot list of people, selling a $9 report. I'm SELLING - there is no marketing there that's distinct from the salesmanship. I am not "providing value", I am not "creating content", I am not "raising awareness", I am not "building a brand"... I am making sales.

                    Imo, this skill - which I see as salesmanship, is the number one skill a new entrepreneur should learn.
                    We are splitting hairs here. I'm not aware of any benefit to agreeing on the differences between marketing and selling.

                    But to me, writing a sales letter is marketing. If you are in front of a buyer (or on the phone), that's selling. Texting may be a grey area.

                    Here is why I think this way. I'm a marketer and a salesman.

                    Have you ever sold anything in person for a living? Made a prospecting cold call live?

                    If you have, the feeling is completely different than writing a sales letter. The thinking is completely different. You are using different parts of the brain. The difference is visceral and profound.

                    Selling is exchanging feelings and conversation in the moment.

                    And of course you can make sales with a sales letter, a sales video, or a sales website. Sales are made, but there is no selling. It's all marketing.

                    Another thing that sways my thought on this is that I've read a couple thousand books on selling, and a few hundred on marketing.

                    The difference in what is in these books is profound and distinct.

                    Marketing books cover everything that generates sales except personal contact (or over the phone). Sales books cover the personal contact, actually talking to a person,.

                    In all the books I've read, this difference is clear.

                    Another way of thinking about this is....selling is the thing that almost everyone avoids. It's the thing that generates fear and nervousness in the majority of people.

                    If someone owns a business, that makes sales. And they do everything they can to avoid actually talking to a live person...avoiding risking that person's anger or rejection. Selling is what the business owner is avoiding.

                    In fact, another way of seeing it is....if they can reject you personally, it's selling. If you aren't risking that feeling of rejection, you're marketing
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  • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
    Limited time? Due to what?

    If you are providing the service directly, you can only do so many in a day...and if it rains and you are unable to do what you do, then you have to double up. The most successful lawn care (which means a lot of different things) which has been around for a long time in my area...

    are the ones who do SUPERIOR work, like collecting the grass when mowing, not just cutting and "mulching" it...so it depends on WHO your customers are going to be. Some guys do a lot of commercial, like churches. Or business centers.

    If residential, what income bracket is your target market? What is the competition already and most importantly, WHY would they switch to you, what do you offer which the competition does not?

    Marketing or sales depends on your goals for this business, I know too many "lawn" guys who only need enough to pay their bar tabs. Others, the professionals, have built huge businesses with large staff.

    What is your end game, or three year goal for this venture? Knowing your plan could help you decide how to spend your time and money in customer acquisition. I assume retention is done by being better than the other guys.

    GordonJ


    Originally Posted by funnelmania View Post

    Fellows,

    I started my lawn care business which made me keenly aware of the importance of marketing & sales. And since my time is somewhat limited, I wanted to ask you guys which skill is more important for an entrepreneur, and which should they work to develop first?

    I've got limited time, so I'd like to center my learning aroudn the skill with the biggest impact first. So which is more important for your own business?
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    Since, as we have recently discussed in other posts, talking to the right people is the most important thing in making the sale, marketing is therefore the most important.

    Great marketing makes sales easy.

    Powerful selling skill won't help you turn the wrong person into a happy buyer.

    In your role I'd go with a neighborhood referral program. Travel time and fuel wastage between service locations is your biggest suck (I know those leafblowers pull a lot of gas, but at least they're generating revenue when operating), so anything you can do to get more customers on one block, more blocks served by you next to each other, the better.
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    • Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

      Since, as we have recently discussed in other posts, talking to the right people is the most important thing in making the sale, marketing is therefore the most important.

      Great marketing makes sales easy.

      Powerful selling skill won't help you turn the wrong person into a happy buyer.
      You said it before I did.

      Sales skills are important. But if you concentrate on the marketing and advertising...meaning you learn how to do that to generate customers....as long as you're a nice guy, the selling is nearly automatic.

      So concentrate on marketing. And by that, I mean concentrate on learning how to market.

      Most ads generate no business, because "Getting your name out there" is poor marketing. Read a few books on direct marketing.
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  • Profile picture of the author DWolfe
    Slightly off topic always liked the post by ewenmack how he separated his lawn care business from the pack in this thread https://www.warriorforum.com/offline...marketing.html It's post # 9 about using penalties.
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  • Profile picture of the author Odahh
    Originally Posted by funnelmania View Post

    Fellows,

    I started my lawn care business which made me keenly aware of the importance of marketing & sales. And since my time is somewhat limited, I wanted to ask you guys which skill is more important for an entrepreneur, and which should they work to develop first?

    I've got limited time, so I'd like to center my learning aroudn the skill with the biggest impact first. So which is more important for your own business?
    Are you just doing lawn care as a solo/ self employed person. Or are you building a lawn care business where eventually you will be hiring and training people to do the work

    Working solo you need to develop a specialty that differentiates you from others in lawn care

    What are you offering that landscaping people and other lawn care people don't..

    In which case you need to target those who need that kind of service and develop prices and relationships that allow you to serve those needs for years.
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  • Profile picture of the author brunski57
    sales is part of marketing
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    @ClaudeWhitacre...

    sounds like a great book, can't wait to read it.

    There's the old thing in copywriting about AIDA.

    What many fail to realize is the A (attention), the I (interest), and the D (desire) are marketing. The final A for action is sales.

    The A, I, and D are only as good as the marketing that transpired before the prospect reads your piece.

    I.E., do they have heart problems and you're selling a remedy? Do they have diabetes and you're selling a remedy? If these are true then you'll have great success targeting those that have shown an interest in your type of product.

    You can do the A, I, D, all day long...but if you're not using the marketing that shows who your prospects are before they land on your piece, you don't have a shot.

    We like to ooh and aww over sales letters that did well...but fail to realize there was a list/or they were targeted to those prospects that were most likely to buy.

    Successful sales targets the most likely prospects...it's a science all on it's own.

    So yes, I'm 100% in favor of what your saying.

    It sounds so simple...but yet people waste millions every year getting it wrong.

    So yeah, good marketing saves you a ton of money and a lot of headaches
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  • Profile picture of the author savidge4
    I think I look at this different than most. I personally have a Bachelor Degree in Electronic Engineering. I look at the world with a very number oriented outlook. When I went deep into CRO ( Conversion Rate Optimization ) my outlook/understanding of "Sales" changed drastically. A "Sale" when looking at it from a CRO perspective is very very transactional. Anything and everything before that would then be marketing.

    So looking at something simple like a 3 step funnel - Ad, Lander, Sale, its only a "Sale" when money exchanges hands. And looking at this from the CRO perspective, someone clicking on the Ad is a conversion, Someone clicking on the CTA ( Call to Action ) on the lander is another conversion, and finally getting the conversion that counts IE the sale, is yet another conversion. The ONLY conversion in the process that counts as a sale is the last one.

    So in the past for ME... being in sales I can look back and see very passive aggressive behavior. Going for the Ask, seeing I wasnt there yet, and resetting and then coming back to the Ask, and again and again, until I finally made the sale. I NOW look at it this way - Your in a grocery store and every time you put an item in your cart someone is there asking if you are ready to check out - Think about that for a moment... that would be annoying as F - and yet that is what Traditional sales that we might learn from books from the 70's 80's and 90's would lead us to believe in being the process.

    I have shifted from the psychology of a sale, to a more subtle path being the psychology of a buy.

    No matter WHAT you are selling, no matter HOW you are selling, its a numbers game. If you are using EDDM to contact people... on a good day with the right message you will get a 3% return. Selling on eBay, I know I shoot for a 3% return. When selling to a "qualified" list the numbers go up - BUT you are subject to the size of the list - so a bigger list means more sales.

    My "Marketing" is vastly wider in scope than most. There are more companies without website than there are with. WITH websites is a very defined and short list. WITHOUT is just short of infinite. Is it REALLY easier to sell to someone that has bought before, and HAS what it is you are selling? I would suggest the answer is NO - with a caveat...

    Once you understand buying cycles, being in the right place at the right time IE the end of a cycle, you greatly increase your odds. Average life span of a Vacuum is 7 years. the average contract for Satellite TV is 2 years The average lifespan of a coffee maker is 5 years. Wheels on a skateboard 4 months. Shoes is 8 months. Pound of Coffee 2 weeks. Websites, every 3 years. BUT these simple facts right here... this is not beginner stuff, this takes experience and TIME to execute.

    Prospecting for me, is figuring out where in the buying cycle people are for whatever it is I am selling. NOT having, is the easiest determination that can be made. NOT having is a HUGE untouched market. And from most "Experts" this is the area that you need to stay away from.

    for ME, regardless of form, in person sales, online sales, or written form IE EDDM or a letter, or Radio, TV, or Billboard... its ALL marketing up until the ask. I can walk into your business and explain how a website will increase business - thats Marketing, it makes no difference that I am in front of you vs YOU reading it on a website it is the exact same function - marketing the benefit of choosing me to do your work, or choosing me to buy coffee, or shoes or whatever that entire process is marketing. Again its not until the ASK or clicking the BUY NOW button that the marketing efforts transfer to "sales"
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  • Profile picture of the author art72
    While I also have managed, owned, and operated locally run service based businesses offline, I found the following book to be a godsend of sorts to what I was lacking for nearly 35 years in business...

    "The E Myth" by Michael Gerber - there is a free audio version on YouTube. It concerts and amplifies the ideology of being the architect/engineer, management/outsourcing, and of course, the tactician/technician or tradesman that actual provides the service or does the actual work.

    I am top level at professionally engineering the business and I am a highly skilled multi-versed tradesman, but I never really dialed-in to the idea I should have been building businesses that did not require my being there to operate, which falls under the management and outsourcing department which I personally sucked at for 35 years...

    Sarah bakes pies... it will reveal your strengths and weaknesses, whether you are a seasoned business operator or first timer.

    After that it boils down to minimalizing your efforts to create bigger routes, continuity (*monthly billing) and the retention/attrition rates of your client satisfaction ratings. There you will need more advertising, salesmanship, and marketing strategies.

    Either way, I would definitely check out this book it has brought to light an area I never realized I ignored for 3.5 decades.

    https://youtu.be/7T918K85Zxk
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  • Profile picture of the author Odahh
    Savage

    Great breakdown. Target numbers people starting out can build toward in a few years. Or faster based off natural ability to organize work flow for efficiency.

    You probably do the efficiency part instinctively then optimize for scaling.
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  • Profile picture of the author marine2008
    I would say that Marketing is more about strategy, positioning and value proposition. Sales is closer to the field.

    It seems easier to me to hire a good salesman than to hire a good marketing strategist...
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  • Profile picture of the author surfer30
    You cant ran your business without marketing your offers. Marketing is about reaching out to your target audience who want a solution. Marketing is really important. If you create the best product in the world, nobody will know that. You have to show up to the audience.

    Targeting is marketing, without marketing there are no sales.
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  • Profile picture of the author IM2Pat
    Banned
    great post! Marketing is more of a science whereas Sales, in my opinion, is from the gut...a skill that is applicable in eery aspect of our daily public lives!! Whether we like it or not, everyone in some way shape or form...is selling!
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  • Profile picture of the author Maximalist SEO
    I think both skills are important but if you focus more on your marketing skills you can surely improve sales. Marketing techniques with different ideas can help.
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  • Profile picture of the author savidge4
    Adding to above... There is, I cant say there has been, because as it is apparent with this discussion a transition that is happening. Sales and Marketing is no more. There is marketing, and the effect of that marketing, that is a transactional "Sale"

    Basically it is the internet and the obvious ability to track this stuff. We ( those of us that understand HOW ) now know what video a person watched, what ad a person clicked, what piece of content a person read, that instigated a purchase. We also know which of the endeavors is NOT working.

    Offline marketing, and you can to a degree say the same but not 100% and even the degree part of this is not until recently - when we understood we had to ask, where did you hear about this? The whole concept of tracking and fine tuning ALL aspects of marketing simply did not exist in the 80's. I can not recall a single book I read from what I call the Golden Era of Sales, that even begins to touch on the subject.

    I would say that hindsight being 20/20 the Golden Era of sales was really more in line with the pre golden Era of Marketing.

    There are going to be some huge I might even suggest EPIC business failures in the near future... look back in the not so distant past, and they are there already Toys R Us comes to mind... Radio Shack, Sears, Modells Sporting Goods, Western Auto, "Disney Store" ( set to close all stores at the end of the year ) Circuit City, Pier 1, and the list could go on and on and on... and what do all of these store closings have in common? ( with the exception of maybe the Disney Store ) each and every one of them failed due to poor marketing. In some cases like Toys R Us, some plain out just stupid decisions were made in regards to marketing EPIC stupid.

    The landscape of "Sales and Marketing" has changed, are there are MANY that have not figured it out yet, and they WILL fail. The Pandemic and the Economy has masked many an issue, next year will be the year that the Truth will be seen in quarterly reports - I think it has the potential to be down right ugly. It will be blamed on the recession, but that will be the excuse - If you take the time to deep dive in these business' back 2 and 3 years... it will be very clear, they were going under when times were good, and the pandemic just gave them a reprieve from the truth, that in the end will make it even worse.

    I am sure you have heard me say it here, "Sell more, by selling less" The reality is if you want to make more, you need to market more - selling is just a by product of good marketing.
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    • Profile picture of the author art72
      Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

      A

      Offline marketing, and you can to a degree say the same but not 100% and even the degree part of this is not until recently - when we understood we had to ask, where did you hear about this? The whole concept of tracking and fine tuning ALL aspects of marketing simply did not exist in the 80's. I can not recall a single book I read from what I call the Golden Era of Sales, that even begins to touch on the subject.
      I agree with a lot of what you have stated, as clearly you have far more experience than I in marketing and sales. However, there were hints of tracking and controlling the ads as Hopkins stated in "Scientific Advertising" - surely that predates 1980's.

      Point being, I never even realized the number of sales oriented mailings I received as a renter or homeowner, for every time you move, the post office supplies a chunk of local service providers with the "most likely" services a new renter or homeowner would seek.

      In my own ignorance, I never realized how many independent, freelancers, or direct mail advertisers there were who were actually "promoting offers and tracking sales sales" through their coupon codes, tracking codes, or hidden 3rd party pixels for lack of a better word.

      So in theory, we have laser targeting, tracking, and analytics provided by technology to mind blowing levels, but the old school Gary Halbert's, Olgivy's, Hopkins's and other brilliant were damn sure tracking sales and knew how to steal the winners and ditch the losers - for if not they would not have become so iconic to people who share interest in protecting their investments of time, effort, energy, and money.

      I can only wish they would start teaching much of what we all study, for their are few (*if any) institutionalized schools of thought who teach such out-of-the-box knowledge... I learned more on this forum than any school ever taught me 10,000 fold!

      Still learning from contributors such as as yourself, though I occasionally pause to step back and process all that is offered by those with real world experience, not just wielding degrees in one subject or another.
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  • Profile picture of the author funnelmania
    Hey everyone, thx for all the answers. I've been busy over this holiday, but I just managed to read through everything.

    Thank you to everyone.

    So prevailing view seems to be that I should focus on marketing. Any book recommendations that I'd find helpful to learn marketing?
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by funnelmania View Post

      Hey everyone, thx for all the answers. I've been busy over this holiday, but I just managed to read through everything.

      Thank you to everyone.

      So prevailing view seems to be that I should focus on marketing. Any book recommendations that I'd find helpful to learn marketing?
      Gary Vaynerchuk's Jab, Jab, Jab, Right Hook comes to mind. Might want to look up on Youtube his $1.80 strategy for Instagram.

      Would be a start for sure
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  • Profile picture of the author IM2Pat
    Banned
    Hubspot and Entrepreneur Mag site will be invaluable site/tools for you! I wish you the very best of luck!
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  • What's more important, your arm or your leg? You will want both to be a fully functional human being.

    What's more important for an entrepreneur with regards to sales and marketing? Both! Without proper marketing, your business will have no sales. It's as simple as that buddy!
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post


    Think about me sending a direct mail letter to a hot list of people, selling a $9 report. I'm SELLING - there is no marketing there that's distinct from the salesmanship. I am not "providing value", I am not "creating content", I am not "raising awareness", I am not "building a brand"... I am making sales.

    Imo, this skill - which I see as salesmanship, is the number one skill a new entrepreneur should learn.
    So you just invalidated your whole argument with that sentence (the one I put in bold)...

    "Think about me sending a direct mail letter to a hot list of people..."

    Where did you get that list? Marketing that was done by someone else or yourself obviously.

    There would be no "hot" list without previous marketing.

    You're piggybacking off someone else...or off your previous efforts.

    If you're selling a Rolls Royce (famous 60 MPH ad), you've had a lot of marketing before you.

    If you're selling beer (famous Schlitz ad), you've had a lot of marketing before you.

    If you're selling Hathaway Shirts, or later on to become "the most interesting man"...well, you get what I'm saying...

    show me any successful direct response letter and I'll show you how it was only successful because of previous marketing.

    Now, back to the original post, my recommendation would be for the poster to market themselves before they marketed lawn care. We all know about lawn care, we've seen it all over town. Most are looking at the who behind the what in this situation.

    We can talk about direct response all day...and every which way we can imagine to make it hypnotic, but, it's all a failure without the proper delivery to the proper people who were identified through proper marketing efforts.

    It's easy to wine and dine those that dream of quick fortunes with direct response, but at the end of the day (or money), reality sets in almost every single time.

    On the other hand, if success to you is a letter that brings in a couple hundred bucks, we're on different levels of defining success.

    Look at the past. We've had legions of "gurus" tell you how to do it...yet hardly anyone has achieved success. Look back at all the websites from copywriters from the past. Most are empty now and you'll never get a reply...if they're even still up. They were all sold on a dream from someone that had crazy good marketing to produce sales.

    Personally, I don't understand why people can't associate the marketing with what creates the sale...but that's just me
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    • Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      So you just invalidated your whole argument with that sentence (the one I put in bold)...

      "Think about me sending a direct mail letter to a hot list of people..."

      Where did you get that list? Marketing that was done by someone else or yourself obviously.

      There would be no "hot" list without previous marketing.

      You're piggybacking off someone else...or off your previous efforts.

      If you're selling a Rolls Royce (famous 60 MPH ad), you've had a lot of marketing before you.

      If you're selling beer (famous Schlitz ad), you've had a lot of marketing before you.

      If you're selling Hathaway Shirts, or later on to become "the most interesting man"...well, you get what I'm saying...

      show me any successful direct response letter and I'll show you how it was only successful because of previous marketing.

      Now, back to the original post, my recommendation would be for the poster to market themselves before they marketed lawn care. We all know about lawn care, we've seen it all over town. Most are looking at the who behind the what in this situation.

      We can talk about direct response all day...and every which way we can imagine to make it hypnotic, but, it's all a failure without the proper delivery to the proper people who were identified through proper marketing efforts.

      It's easy to wine and dine those that dream of quick fortunes with direct response, but at the end of the day (or money), reality sets in almost every single time.

      On the other hand, if success to you is a letter that brings in a couple hundred bucks, we're on different levels of defining success.

      Look at the past. We've had legions of "gurus" tell you how to do it...yet hardly anyone has achieved success. Look back at all the websites from copywriters from the past. Most are empty now and you'll never get a reply...if they're even still up. They were all sold on a dream from someone that had crazy good marketing to produce sales.

      Personally, I don't understand why people can't associate the marketing with what creates the sale...but that's just me
      I think we're just talking past each other, I don't actually disagree with much of what you've written here.

      Buying/renting the list isn't marketing.

      Creating the list, sure, that's marketing.

      We're not discussing which one will have a bigger impact in the long run, sales or marketing. I've already stated from my first post here that marketing will, because it can achieve scale much faster than sales, and will make all subsequent sales easier. I run a marketing agency, I've seen the difference great marketing can do in people's businesses.

      We're discussing which is a more important skill for an entrepreneur, in this case a beginner at entrepreneurship. My experience tells me that entrepreneurs should start in sales. Sales skills play an important role in generating some cash flow quickly, and also enable you to hire others, get investors, and be a good leader. If I were to recommend to someone who wanted to be an entrepreneur whether to get a job in marketing or sales, I'd say sales 100% of the time.

      Now, to start generating some cash flow, you don't need to jab. You can buy a list, do a joint venture, or go for that segment of the market that's already ready to purchase. You don't need to start by building your own audience. And the reason being that the latter takes a lot more time, and new entrepreneurs typically need cash flow quickly.

      Marketing is generating demand. Sales is satisfying existing demand. You can always find existing demand to satisfy when you get started. That's the low-hanging fruit, that's what you should go after.

      Also consider examples such as Halbert's coat of arms business.
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      • Profile picture of the author savidge4
        Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

        Sales skills play an important role in generating some cash flow quickly, and also enable you to hire others, get investors, and be a good leader. If I were to recommend to someone who wanted to be an entrepreneur whether to get a job in marketing or sales, I'd say sales 100% of the time.

        Now, to start generating some cash flow, you don't need to jab.
        Probably a bit more than a year ago I would have agreed with you. That is exactly what I grew up understanding. But when you really really get right down to it what is "selling"? Its the ASK. The absolute hardest part for anyone new to Entrepreneurship is ASKING for money. ( side note being how much to ask for )

        A really good example of "Selling" would be related to the OP and just having finished cutting a yard and going to the neighbor and knocking on the door and matter of factly ASKING "Hey I cut your neighbor's yard, for $40 I can cut yours. And even in that short pitch, "cut your neighbor's yard" is a testimonial aka MARKETING... but then there is the ASK. You simply are not going to walk up and knock on the door and say "Hi, my name is Savidge4. Can cut your yard for $40?"

        Halbert's coat of arms business, a classic classic example of WHY. Why, is marketing all day long.... send a check or money order for $29.95 was the only part of that letter that is "Selling" the entire letter is marketing. The modern version of this is genealogy through genetics ( DNA report ).

        This entire discussion ( for me) has even further cemented the fact that "the act of Selling" IS Marketing. The "Sale" is simply transactional.

        I think the process itself will forever be called "Selling" but it is very clear the definition has changed - more so at the lower levels of transactional marketing, but in time at scale or Corporate will transition... and just look at Gary Vaynerchuk as an example... Who are Vayner Media's biggest clients? and look what he is doing with their ad dollars... They are ALL Jabbing - Give Give Give, ASK ( Jab, Jab, Jab, Right Hook )
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  • Both are important but i prefer to do Marketing then sales
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  • Profile picture of the author luciesmazanska
    Originally Posted by funnelmania View Post

    Fellows,

    I started my lawn care business which made me keenly aware of the importance of marketing & sales. And since my time is somewhat limited, I wanted to ask you guys which skill is more important for an entrepreneur, and which should they work to develop first?

    I've got limited time, so I'd like to center my learning aroudn the skill with the biggest impact first. So which is more important for your own business?
    They go hand in hand
    You need a good marketing to achieve targeted prospects and sales
    and vice versa.

    Learn both or hire someone for one and lear how to do second one
    Simply choose one you like the most
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  • Profile picture of the author mazhar altaf
    Google's Digital Garage is a great place to start learning about digital marketing concepts. There are so many free online resources that can guide you in becoming skilled at SEO, social media & more! Start working on your skills now by asking questions when necessary - branding yourself will be key because it helps build relationships with others which leads into trustworthiness as well (and who doesn't want those qualities?).
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    • I found this podcast by Dan Kennedy. A legendary marketer. I'm always astounded by his deep insights into marketing. But he also understands selling.

      This podcast episode is actually a talk he gave to about 1,000 people that paid $1,500 each...partly to hear him speak. I know, because I was there.

      Enjoy.

      https://open.spotify.com/episode/1OA7iLQcvQqYYBx7qfVFtC

      At the very end, Russell Brunson gives a pitch. But all the rest is pure marketing gold.

      The episode is titled Marketing VS Selling. He really gives the differences between the two in a very clear way, and how they interact with each other.
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      • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
        Thanks Claude, classic Dan, before he became Lazarus Dan.

        One idea he mentions in this presentation, briefly...is the idea of pure eCom...the elimination of people, whereas your secretary/receptionist or street cleaner DON'T interact with any customers.

        An absence of employees, coupled with NO human contact. Sounds like the perfect business, and maybe, from about 1915 on, those mail order mavens with tiny classifed ads in mags, had the forerunner of eCom. Send in your dollar, get the thing, no people to deal with.

        Bill Myers had his AUTOMATIC PRODUCT VENDING software in maybe 2004 or so, and I've always loved that idea. The Internet as a vending machine.

        Isn't that basically what Bezos did? Select, pay, get it

        Anyhow, thanks for posting, wonder how his tallest midget in the room comment would fly today?

        Love Dan Kennedy, alive or dead, or even now, the Walking Dead Dan.

        GordonJ




        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        I found this podcast by Dan Kennedy. A legendary marketer. I'm always astounded by his deep insights into marketing. But he also understands selling.

        This podcast episode is actually a talk he gave to about 1,000 people that paid $1,500 each...partly to hear him speak. I know, because I was there.

        Enjoy.

        https://open.spotify.com/episode/1OA7iLQcvQqYYBx7qfVFtC

        At the very end, Russell Brunson gives a pitch. But all the rest is pure marketing gold.

        The episode is titled Marketing VS Selling. He really gives the differences between the two in a very clear way, and how they interact with each other.
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      • Profile picture of the author savidge4
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        The episode is titled Marketing VS Selling. He really gives the differences between the two in a very clear way, and how they interact with each other.
        #1 thanks for sharing that, If you hadn't of shared it, I would not have listened to it. I'm going to be honest... It wasn't a "Hard" listen, but it had me scooting to the edge of my seat a few times.

        What had me scooting was well there were a few things... the first almost pressed stop moment was actually pretty early on... something to the effect of an internet only no contact business isnt going to make it... Thank goodness I wasn't drinking something at the time, I would have had to clean my screen.

        I am going to throw an example out here "Meta's" ( Facebook ) Oculus series of VR headsets... You CAN NOT speak to a single person... tech support is e-mail only and they answer about 1/2 the time if you are lucky... and they have sold something like 50 Million units total - worldwide ( the whole line, not just a single model ) and lets call it even at $400.00 a crack $20,000,000,000.00 Thats 20 BILLION as in with a B.Throw in Meta Verse, and my lord - you can easily project Trillions in the next 3 years. ( and the market analysis I read on the subject is no where near that number. ) If there was ever an indicator for Facebook to do a stock split, there it is.

        There was the rant about we closed 63% and he was like why not 100%? I cant agree more... I use the example of a car lot... The Sales force, loses sales. How many people walk up to the counter at Starbucks, and end up not buying? Not just walking in and sitting down, but physically walking up to the counter? probably as close to 0% as its going to get.

        How many people walk in to buy a ford truck and walk off? the dealerships I deal with, the number is shocking. probably about as far from 0% as you can get.

        Here is the thing ( for me ) This talk is specifically talking about Internet Marketers, that sell "Internet Marketing" He states you have to do speaking engagements... you have to do webinars. Again, I am creeping up towards the edge of my seat. At scale? possibly.. at the level of those with products listing WF WSO's not at all.

        And here is where I think there is a line. Service vs Product. I think the line is way skewed. I no longer sell "Service", I market "Product". My "Products" are "Services" that produce. Building a website, product or service? SEO, Product or Service? Social Media, Product or Service? Selling Physical Products? Selling reports? Selling courses? It can ALL be sold as a product, and in turn can be marketed without a single conversation, with the end result being a conversion AKA a Sale.

        So, I hippity hop from town to town, and business to business and offer to list a business on Google Maps - NO SELLING what so ever. I am indeed speaking to the shop owner most of the time, but not always. I am demonstrating... building trust... I consider this pure marketing.

        I do a revisit, and a whole lot of percent of the time, they ASK, what I offer. And I attribute the success of this #1 NOT SELLING, #2 Demonstrating my ability, and #3 in doing so developing trust - hey they can actually create results.

        So much like a funnel ( Ad, Lander, Pitch ) you want a high level of consistency across all 3 phases. If the ad is lose 10 lbs, the Lander better be lose 10lb and the pitch better be lose 10 lbs, right?

        The same is true in my real world marketing efforts. I offer a free listing, that produces a result - people walk in the door. When they ask what I offer, the service based products I am offering is result based products. I then leverage the day lights out of Escrow, and literally put my money where my mouth is X results by X date, or the end product is free. Basically a money back warranty on steroids. A REAL USP ( Unique Selling Perspective )

        The closest... I take that back the ONLY thing I "SELL" is CRO ( Conversion Rate Optimization ) My target best / optimal client simply does not wake up in the morning and say "You know what, I need to find someone to optimize my website" And if they did? regardless of terms minus the very specific "CRO Agency" or the like, getting search engine results the way the Algo's read the term pushes more towards SEO - but that's a whole other thing.

        Another example... when was the last time a member of the Jehovah Witness' knocked on your door? I have been getting a postcard once a month letting me know the most recent Watchtower is available to read online. I happen to know, that attendance is up for my local church since they started doing this ( not by my efforts )

        Again, I think in today's world... be it the Digital world or the NOW world, anything and everything can be marketed as a product. A Campaign of AUTHORITY backed by all of the right Trust builders will produce the end result of a conversion, without a single in person anything.

        Tony Robbins latest deal... on Jan 25th? he is doing a FREE webinar. I look at this and think it's amusing... The scarcity mind set - Hes selling FREE - and I know he will crush it, I get it. but its just as easy to sell $400 as it is selling "Free"

        The very end of the podcast... LANGUAGE - PRESENTATION. I can speak live and will have only one tone, will be able to focus specifically to one target - that is aligned to ME and MY message at THAT moment. That would be SELLING. Marketing? You can present Language and Presentation over and over and over, with a nuance of change between each interaction connecting specifically to multitudes of targets.

        I don't run ads with images of women and men and families and different ethnicities and different geographical locations because I like turning 1 ad into 40... I do it based on Language and Presentation. I don't target a specific ideal client; I target a diverse collection of ideals. My Seller Avatar / voice changes in direct corrilation to my target Buyer Avatar - and you simply cannot do that with "Sales", but you for sure can with "Marketing"

        And I am honestly not arguing, i am maybe sharing another way of looking at things, one that I think is more in line with the average over the above average that read this forum ( if that makes sense )

        Again, thanks for the share!
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      • Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        I found this podcast by Dan Kennedy. A legendary marketer. I'm always astounded by his deep insights into marketing. But he also understands selling.

        This podcast episode is actually a talk he gave to about 1,000 people that paid $1,500 each...partly to hear him speak. I know, because I was there.

        Enjoy.

        https://open.spotify.com/episode/1OA7iLQcvQqYYBx7qfVFtC

        At the very end, Russell Brunson gives a pitch. But all the rest is pure marketing gold.

        The episode is titled Marketing VS Selling. He really gives the differences between the two in a very clear way, and how they interact with each other.
        Nice episode, loved it. Looks like part 2 is coming out this Friday.

        You do get the feeling of quite a heavy sales emphasis from Dan, at least I did. In the sense that sales has to pull the trigger, otherwise all the heavy lifting of marketing goes to waste.
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        • Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

          Nice episode, loved it. Looks like part 2 is coming out this Friday.

          You do get the feeling of quite a heavy sales emphasis from Dan, at least I did. In the sense that sales has to pull the trigger, otherwise all the heavy lifting of marketing goes to waste.
          You have to understand that this was recorded at least 15 years ago. And the vast majority of the Kennedy audience (at the time) wasn't made up of internet marketers. So he was talking to mostly brick and mortar business owners.

          It isn't an Either/Or thing. There are plenty of examples of strictly marketing companies that make plenty of money.

          The point is that they would make much more money if they incorporated at least a telemarketing crew, live customer service, and the ability to take incoming phone calls.

          I've told this example before. Years ago, I was at a Kennedy event, talking to Bill Glazer.

          He told me that (of the 1,500 that were there) that there had been 22 direct mail and online attempts to get a registration (for a $1,500 ticket). A third of the audience came from that direct mail assault. (including online affiliates).

          Then, they hired a group of trained telemarketers to sell the event..to all the people who did not respond to the 22 offers my mail and online.

          In one phone call, at the end of the 22 offers.....66% of all the tickets were sold.

          If you are selling an inexpensive offer, or selling to your customer base, you can get away without actually talking to someone, I suppose.

          And the majority of the people here would never talk to a customer unless their life were threatened...9only a slight exaggeration)

          But actual contact with a living person will multiply the sales.

          Just like using marketing strategies in selling will multiply sales.

          Thanks for the heads up about the second half.

          Here is an observation that may shock a few people.

          If you can make a sale over a few hundred dollars without ever talking to a person. (Plenty of internet services do this)...that person has proven that hey need very little in the way of selling to buy.

          And that person would buy high multiples of whatever they bought online, if only a trained person would get on the phone with them. Or...they would buy far more expensive and profitable services from you, with a phone call...after they bought online.


          It's a thought.
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          • Profile picture of the author savidge4
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            You have to understand that this was recorded at least 15 years ago. And the vast majority of the Kennedy audience (at the time) wasn't made up of internet marketers. So he was talking to mostly brick and mortar business owners.

            It isn't an Either/Or thing. There are plenty of examples of strictly marketing companies that make plenty of money.
            I would absolutely agree its not an either or thing. I have been very clear about how I obtain clients and close deals, and that is IN PERSON. Its not to say that I do not employ just about every other method of marketing, but by percentage... in person wins every freakin time.

            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            The point is that they would make much more money if they incorporated at least a telemarketing crew, live customer service, and the ability to take incoming phone calls.

            I've told this example before. Years ago, I was at a Kennedy event, talking to Bill Glazer.

            He told me that (of the 1,500 that were there) that there had been 22 direct mail and online attempts to get a registration (for a $1,500 ticket). A third of the audience came from that direct mail assault. (including online affiliates).

            Then, they hired a group of trained telemarketers to sell the event..to all the people who did not respond to the 22 offers my mail and online.

            In one phone call, at the end of the 22 offers.....66% of all the tickets were sold.
            For me personally, i look at this and wonder... The list that got the 22 e-mails being no different than the list the telemarketers had... Apples to Apples What was the GAP between the message in the e-mails and the telemarketing pitch? GRANTED this was a time ago.. BUT it also probably occurred when open rates and close rates for e-mail was at it's best.

            In todays world... I would REALLY be looking at the Trust variable, and How, what, why, and where the tipping point was not reached with the e-mail effort. And today such an undertaking would have the added layer of social media as well.

            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            If you are selling an inexpensive offer, or selling to your customer base, you can get away without actually talking to someone, I suppose.
            The "I suppose" is classic... I would suggest if the targetting was right, and the Authority behind the offer was right, there would be absolutely no issue in selling anything inexpensive or not. I sell $10,000+ TV's with no contact, ( but the option for contact is available, but maybe a potential customer calls maybe 5 times in the last year, and we moved over 100 units ) maybe not daily, but consistently weekly.

            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            And the majority of the people here would never talk to a customer unless their life were threatened... (only a slight exaggeration)
            I don't think that is a "Slight exaggeration" at all, many look at the whole process as "Life Threatening" lol

            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            But actual contact with a living person will multiply the sales.
            I have this "Rule" and it is literally a Company Rule for our inhouse efforts. #1 method of contact is in person. #2 being a phone call, and #3 is either an e-mail or a text message. As much as possible we reach out in person. If the first order of contact is in person, the 2nd contact, should be the same - Meaning if I am walking door to door and I talk with people, my follow up will be a face to face conversation. If I contact a person by phone, my follow up would be by phone.

            And that hierarchy is very rigid... We about never drop one step lower than the point of contact. In person will drop to a phone call - ONLY after a in person visit, and the expectation of a phone call is presented. The same being point of contact by phone can be followed up with an e-mail, when and only a phone call is made with permission to do so - and a follow up call that it has been done.

            I absolutely prefer on all kinds of levels to stay away from text messaging, but from time to time it is something that is done.

            I have this little phrase - "Control the Controllable" that is a universal mantra of sorts. I find that I have the most control in person, and as you move down the list of contact, control becomes less and less.

            With in person contact, you have the greatest amount of control. Tonality is understood, Body language, Actual attention, and many other factors that can drive and dictate how you might present something. Once you get on the phone, body language is gone, tonality becomes a variable, Attention is a variable and on and on. E-Mail and text plumets to about 0 amount of control... Its basically you hoping #1 they open the e-mail, #2 they actually read it, and #3 they act.. the Control by this point is in the receivers' hands, and not the sender.

            And that brings us to the example above.. the Telemarketers closed 66% of the tickets sold... Control - BUT maybe not then, vs now there would have been an idea of open rates and click through on the CTA, to better understand the failing point of the e-mail campaign. CRO ( Conversion Rate Optimization ) was not like a thing even as little as 5 years ago as it today, and I would say that it is by far, the least utilized tool in small guy marketing.


            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            Here is an observation that may shock a few people.

            If you can make a sale over a few hundred dollars without ever talking to a person. (Plenty of internet services do this)...that person has proven that they need very little in the way of selling to buy.
            This is where you and I hit the fork in the road. Yes, there is an amount of right message at the right time, and the buyer was simply looking. BUT I would say that Marketing forced the sale - Simply no "Sales" needed.

            And to put this in a perspective both of us will understand... It is my opinion, that YOU as a door-to-door salesman of Vacuums Is/was/has been/will be one hell of a marketer. Again ME, would say that your presentation - was marketing - up to and until you hit them up with the ASK - That aspect of the process, and only that aspect of the process in my mind is "Selling"

            Let me back this up a bit. You and I both understand the buying cycle ( tire kickers, an interest, a refined interest, Comparison, buying, and post purchase support ) You have communicated that over the years, you understood that people that bought anything whatsoever from a door-to-door salesman would buy again, from a door-to-door salesman.

            I might be wrong about this, but I know it to be true about your brick and mortar... but you ace up your sleeve if you knew it or not, was NOT selling Kirbys. I can only imagine the conferences you had been to and "Brand Recognition" was I will bet the #1 complaint, and in reality, I would see the fact that it's not as known as Kirby, was a HUGE advantage.

            YOU mastered the skill of comparison... you were not only comparing what they already had to what you were "Selling", you without question were dealing with the objection or questions about "Kirby". WE now know, at the expense of probably billions of dollars in testing, that 3 choices are better than 4 and 2. 3 choices is actually optimal. We see it in retail all over the place Good, Better, Best - Silver, Gold, Platinum etc etc

            Biases are based on comparison - personal choice if you will. In retail, Bias tends to fall along lines of BRAND. I can sell $10,000+ TV's online ONLY because of BRAND. Because they are bankrupt and gone I can spill the beans... Circuit City would push TV brands using comparison. They would connect the TV's up to the source with specific cabling. HDMI would be "Best" Red blue Green Red White Cabling was Better, and Yellow Red White, was Good. By comparison, you can visually see the difference. Extremely manipulative sure. But even today the same games are played maybe not with cabling.. But I have seen it ( cabling ), but more often than not it is done with the fine tuning, or untuning of settings to increase or decrease quality. Goto the wall of TV's at Walmart or Target or Best Buy... not a remote in site, you cant check these things They are controlling the controllable IE which TV looks best.

            In online sales if a persons preferred brand is Nike, the chances of you selling them a pair of Addidas is about slim and none. And it's just not shoes.. its about straight across the board, much like you saying those that have bought before will buy again. Those that have bought Nikes online before will buy Nike's online. Not just "shoes" but specifically the same brand.

            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            And that person would buy high multiples of whatever they bought online, if only a trained person would get on the phone with them. Or...they would buy far more expensive and profitable services from you, with a phone call...after they bought online.
            I would consider this to be a VERY true statement, with a caveat. Using my "Rule", unless there is a known expectation of the call, I would not go UP the chain of contact, DOWN a step, yes, UP a step NO. The obvious exception being using a phone call as a point of contact to set a time and place for a in person meeting ( setting an appointment )

            Within the science that is CRO, requesting a phone number is generally a huge line of resistance, UNLESS the initial point of contact, a form or the like - is for a call back.

            You obviously buy things from Amazon.. when was the last time they ( Amazon ) called you? Have you ever had a call from a seller? I have... I bought something, they sent the wrong thing not once but twice, and I left a bad review. The SELLER contacted me by phone asking that I change my rating and review. My review after that went from bad to worse.

            From a pure online point of contact, a phone call to the buyer is probably more detrimental than good. The whole point of the buyer, buying online, was its now and done, and they didn't have to talk to someone - usually a call center offshore.

            Look at service based platforms such as Upwork and Fiver, the expectation of a phone call is Zero. Look at some of the transactions on these platforms and they exceed the line of expensive $5000+ I don't provide services on either of those platforms, but do use others to get jobs. and generally speaking they are contactless.

            The other variable in this is those that buy online are apt to buy online again... And it cannot be assumed in today's world that those that buy online, will buy over the phone.

            I understand that the difference in seeing this is personal perception. Neither of us are wrong or right, we are both however, in the right for ourselves.
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            • Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

              For me personally, i look at this and wonder... The list that got the 22 e-mails being no different than the list the telemarketers had... Apples to Apples What was the GAP between the message in the e-mails and the telemarketing pitch? GRANTED this was a time ago.. BUT it also probably occurred when open rates and close rates for e-mail was at it's best.

              In todays world... I would REALLY be looking at the Trust variable, and How, what, why, and where the tipping point was not reached with the e-mail effort. And today such an undertaking would have the added layer of social media as well.
              I think this is the mistake you're making. You think sales is just the ASK. Here's the product, it costs this much, give it to me if you want it. And because you think like that, you ask for the "GAP" between the message in the emails and the telemarketing pitch...

              As if this is just a matter of delivering a message, and it doesn't matter whether it's delivered over the phone, or through an ad or whatever, so long as it gets to the person.

              But the big point of sales isn't CLOSING - it's INVESTIGATING BUYER NEEDS in a personalized way. You just can't do that through an ad. The ad is the ad. Whatever it says, it says. You're basically GUESSING at what this particular person wants and needs based on what the larger sample you tested wants and needs, and then delivering that message to them.

              Let me tell you, I've sold tens of thousands worth of info products in the past 2 years, with no brand. It was hard, and I HARDLY made any sales at all through my hard-hitting 40 email long email series. But to the same list, when I got them on a free consulting call with me, I closed tens of thousands worth of the very same info product I was selling via email.

              HOW?

              It wasn't because the message of my ads was different than the message of my pitch. It was just because I could get the person to talk to me, open up about their dreams, their frustrations, and their specific goals. ASK THEM QUESTIONS. And then, all I had to do was position the product in my pitch as the solution to their EXACT SPECIFIC NEEDS. And it was game over. Throw in a discount (which existed in the email series as well, but almost everyone ignored it) and ta-da, I had a sale.

              So seeing SELLING as just pitching, or CLOSING ignores what is most powerful in it. And that is uncovering buyer needs, and selling to them. If you can do that, you'll beat any marketing approach whatsoever in terms of strict closing ratios.

              Info products aside, I've also built my main business, a marketing agency, from scratch, and until recently, I've done very little "brand building" or "marketing" and a whole lot of sales. I agree that marketing will take me much farther than sales did in the long run, but sales is faster, at least to start with.


              The "I suppose" is classic... I would suggest if the targetting was right, and the Authority behind the offer was right, there would be absolutely no issue in selling anything inexpensive or not. I sell $10,000+ TV's with no contact, ( but the option for contact is available, but maybe a potential customer calls maybe 5 times in the last year, and we moved over 100 units ) maybe not daily, but consistently weekly.
              Selling tangibles without personal touch isn't such a biggie. Selling INTANGIBLES without a personal touch is a much bigger biggie. Take coaching. If you try to sell coaching without a personal touch AND without a Tony Robbins like brand, you'll fail. Almost guaranteed.

              Take into account another perspective as well. What if I'm just starting out as a coach? How do I market my coaching services? We both know that what I need is CREDIBILITY, but that takes time to generate. Brand building isn't easy, it takes consistent activity over the long haul. So shall I start writing out meaningful content and posting to Facebook groups and what not? That's what most coaches do, and they're broke... Sure, you will gain traction with that approach, if you're willing to starve for like a year of hard work until you build up your audience...


              I don't think that is a "Slight exaggeration" at all, many look at the whole process as "Life Threatening" lol
              I think people see sales as threatening because they confuse marketing with sales to start with. This means that they try to sell every person they meet, and then if they fail, they think it's their fault. Whereas, the first step (after figuring out your positioning, your market, and your offer) is to hook people in, and find out who shows some interest. That's who you try to sell. So if they don't show some interest at first, it's none of your business, it's just not of interest to where they're currently at. That part, hooking them in, is marketing.

              Look at service based platforms such as Upwork and Fiver, the expectation of a phone call is Zero. Look at some of the transactions on these platforms and they exceed the line of expensive $5000+ I don't provide services on either of those platforms, but do use others to get jobs. and generally speaking they are contactless.

              The other variable in this is those that buy online are apt to buy online again... And it cannot be assumed in today's world that those that buy online, will buy over the phone.

              I understand that the difference in seeing this is personal perception. Neither of us are wrong or right, we are both however, in the right for ourselves.
              People who close $5K+ deals over Upwork are those who already have a solid reputation and credibility. I mean, if you transport me into the skin of Tony Robbins, it won't be hard for me to sell literarily ANYTHING - regardless of how bad it is, how crap the copy is, etc. etc.

              But the whole point here is that building a brand like Robbins is SUPER hard and will take you DECADES. For new entrepreneurs, they need to make money today. And in that context, sales skills become more important, though marketing still remains critical. Over time, as they scale and grow bigger, marketing will become more and more important. Robbins can sell a $10K seminar today, without any difficulty and without hopping on a call with you. A new coach simply CANNOT do that without getting on calls with people, demonstrating credibility, investigating buyer needs, and all the rest of it. And there's no way for them to acquire the credibility of Robbins in any short amount of time.
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              • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

                I think this is the mistake you're making. You think sales is just the ASK. Here's the product, it costs this much, give it to me if you want it. And because you think like that, you ask for the "GAP" between the message in the emails and the telemarketing pitch...

                As if this is just a matter of delivering a message, and it doesn't matter whether it's delivered over the phone, or through an ad or whatever, so long as it gets to the person.
                So lets flip this around, I agree, The FORM doesnt matter, its all in the function right? EDDM - selling or marketing? eBay sales Selling or marketing? Picking up a box of Rice Crispies and throwing it in your shopping cart - selling or marketing? Water leak, you go on Google and call a plumber - Selling or Marketing? I would answer Marketing to all of this.

                Heres the product it cost this much buy it if you want it... Yes I indeed think like this... but you think offering a discount is "Selling" What department in fortune 500's determine price of product? Maybe accounting, but the MARKETING dept has a say in the process... does the sales dept? uh NO

                The "Mistake" is attributing marketing functions and language into the box you consider "Selling"

                Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

                But the big point of sales isn't CLOSING - it's INVESTIGATING BUYER NEEDS in a personalized way. You just can't do that through an ad. The ad is the ad. Whatever it says, it says. You're basically GUESSING at what this particular person wants and needs based on what the larger sample you tested wants and needs, and then delivering that message to them.
                And I will 100% disagree here. Go on to youtube and look up Mcdonalds ads, everything you say is a guess? Social, Economic, Racial, Age its all right there. So they are selling and not "advertising" AKA marketing?

                The hands down best marketing piece ever... Gary Halbert ( https://swiped.co/file/coat-of-arms-...-gary-halbert/ ) does all the thing you are saying cant be done. Everyone with the last name "MacDonald" ( coincidence - McD's and MacDonald ) got the exact same letter

                Ad targeting is an artform unto itself. Im still learning, I dont run a one AD, I run 10 to 40 ususally and the targets are different for each and every one ( refering to online efforts )

                Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

                Let me tell you, I've sold tens of thousands worth of info products in the past 2 years, with no brand. It was hard, and I HARDLY made any sales at all through my hard-hitting 40 email long email series. But to the same list, when I got them on a free consulting call with me, I closed tens of thousands worth of the very same info product I was selling via email.
                BUT... me being a marketer first... I simply would not have done this. I would have built Authority first above and beyond anything else. its not that your efforts failed, YOU set yourself up for failure. YOU were basically guessing. This is going to sound conceded or something, but I dont guess... I start with a baseline of my understanding of my optimal target yes, but testing and data refines the message and the target over time.

                I sold 4000 $600 electric scooters this last holiday season. 500 went to Amazon and the remaining 3500 were sold from Facebook ads. My screen name is not Shotgun Sally... my marketing efforts put those ads right in front of those that historically with my data sets I knew would buy I sold the 3500 with Facebook ads before the 500 on Amazon sold - and had not 1 instance of a buyer calling, or me calling a buyer.


                Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

                It wasn't because the message of my ads was different than the message of my pitch. It was just because I could get the person to talk to me, open up about their dreams, their frustrations, and their specific goals. ASK THEM QUESTIONS. And then, all I had to do was position the product in my pitch as the solution to their EXACT SPECIFIC NEEDS. And it was game over. Throw in a discount (which existed in the email series as well, but almost everyone ignored it) and ta-da, I had a sale.
                You cant say that your email messaging wasn't different and then say you just had to ask questions and then position your marketing to fit their needs. So YES, your messaging was DIFFERENT. You were identifying needs within the phone call that I will more than bet were not addressed in the e-mails. Again, it sounds as if your e-mails were more guessing, and less actual knowledge of your potential buyer

                Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

                So seeing SELLING as just pitching, or CLOSING ignores what is most powerful in it. And that is uncovering buyer needs, and selling to them. If you can do that, you'll beat any marketing approach whatsoever in terms of strict closing ratios.
                So see what? uncovering buyers needs? THAT should have been done prior to sending the e-mails

                Look, I am decent on the phone, better in person but decent on the phone, BUT when I can target very specifically what I am selling, my online efforts ( I dont do a lot of e-mails ) crush my phone call selling - but I tend to cold call. Marketing in person... blows every other method right out of the water... like right up there with why would I bother.

                I can tell you why I bother... and thats REACH. This is me, this is my experience - as a fellow agency owner.. stop with the phone and stay local to you, and go door to door - Word of mouth and 3 of us most the time going door to door keep 4 programmers 2 Artist, and 2 social media folks more than busy.

                Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

                Info products aside, I've also built my main business, a marketing agency, from scratch, and until recently, I've done very little "brand building" or "marketing" and a whole lot of sales. I agree that marketing will take me much farther than sales did in the long run, but sales is faster, at least to start with.

                Selling INTANGIBLES without a personal touch is a much bigger biggie. Take coaching. If you try to sell coaching without a personal touch AND without a Tony Robbins like brand, you'll fail. Almost guaranteed.

                Take into account another perspective as well. What if I'm just starting out as a coach? How do I market my coaching services? We both know that what I need is CREDIBILITY, but that takes time to generate. Brand building isn't easy, it takes consistent activity over the long haul. So shall I start writing out meaningful content and posting to Facebook groups and what not? That's what most coaches do, and they're broke... Sure, you will gain traction with that approach, if you're willing to starve for like a year of hard work until you build up your audience...

                I think people see sales as threatening because they confuse marketing with sales to start with. This means that they try to sell every person they meet, and then if they fail, they think it's their fault. Whereas, the first step (after figuring out your positioning, your market, and your offer) is to hook people in, and find out who shows some interest. That's who you try to sell. So if they don't show some interest at first, it's none of your business, it's just not of interest to where they're currently at. That part, hooking them in, is marketing.


                People who close $5K+ deals over Upwork are those who already have a solid reputation and credibility. I mean, if you transport me into the skin of Tony Robbins, it won't be hard for me to sell literarily ANYTHING - regardless of how bad it is, how crap the copy is, etc. etc.

                But the whole point here is that building a brand like Robbins is SUPER hard and will take you DECADES. For new entrepreneurs, they need to make money today. And in that context, sales skills become more important, though marketing still remains critical. Over time, as they scale and grow bigger, marketing will become more and more important. Robbins can sell a $10K seminar today, without any difficulty and without hopping on a call with you. A new coach simply CANNOT do that without getting on calls with people, demonstrating credibility, investigating buyer needs, and all the rest of it. And there's no way for them to acquire the credibility of Robbins in any short amount of time.
                You keep saying - it takes time... but then say I havent Marketed because I am to busy selling. You are the proverbial hamster on an exercise wheel... movin 1000 mph but going no where. I have been there, and I have done that. YOU as a business owner HAVE TO afford the time for marketing on a daily basis. Where would you be today if you started your marketing efforts a year ago?

                The biggest misconception of Branding is that its hard and takes time - If you are trying this on a national Look Im Tony Robbins level.. uh yeah.. super hard. Did Tony Robbins become a world wide brand over night? I dont know his particular story, but do know it didnt happen over night... He didnt justclick over night become a world wide brand, or a national brand or a State brand.. he started LOCAL

                If you listen to the podcast Claude left above: ( https://www.warriorforum.com/main-in...l#post11694675 ) Dan Kennedy right... right there with Tony Robbins you can listen to that podcast and understand he started with talking to real estate folks LOCALLY multiple times a day times a day - Man on a mission - probably did it for months on end.

                YOU have to take steps... one after the other after the other... and if you dont start...youll never get to the top. You cant win the lottery if you dont buy a ticket right? Your seeing the END, the Goal and not realizing there is a path that has to be taken to get there.... Or more accurately you see the path and have decided to put it off because the road is to long.

                Short term actions will only produce short term results. Avoiding the long term actions that produce long term results keeps you on the exercise wheel. Again, been there done that.

                Pick a local strip mall..and say there is 15 different stores, and you walk in and land 3 of those stores as clients, AND you have talked to the other 12. How long before your 3 clients are excited about your efforts that your name is brought up in conversation with the other 12 store owners? BRAND AWARENESS right? and hopefully a referal or 2.

                You put me in a place that has 15 business' lined up like that... over time, I will CLOSE 12 of them. and they are only 15 minutes away from my office.

                BRANDING for the little guy, is about a tight geographical area.. not the entire city plastered with Billboards... a strip mall, 2 blocks in downtown small town USA, A just outside of town commercial district.

                I dont know if you know or not... but business types cluster. Doctors are next to doctors, Lawyers are next to court houses, Dentist are next to Dentists Restaurants are next to restaurants, Fast food is next to other fast food, Auto part stores are next to other auto parts stores. I dont niche my services... I build websites, and do SEO and CRO and interior and exterior applications - business is business, and getting people in the front door is universal

                If YOU have an ideal target, you can geographically target that area, to allow BRANDING to work for you, long before you are Tony Robbins.

                In regards to coaching... a subject that is a bit of a pet peeve for me... you EARN being a coach, you dont develop a business as a coach. Coaching comes after branding, and not before. And here in lies why most coaches suck.

                Your starting your journey, and you are playing the short game - understandable, very much so. BUT, you have to make the transition. You will in time understand everything you are right now calling "Selling" is "Marketing" Marketing Sells, and selling is signing a contract.

                Again just my experience
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                • Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                  Heres the product it cost this much buy it if you want it... Yes I indeed think like this... but you think offering a discount is "Selling" What department in fortune 500's determine price of product? Maybe accounting, but the MARKETING dept has a say in the process... does the sales dept? uh NO

                  The "Mistake" is attributing marketing functions and language into the box you consider "Selling"
                  The possibility for having a discount or not is a marketing move, BUT the process of speaking with a customer, investigating their specific needs (please note the word specific, I will get back to this), demonstrating that your products fits their needs, and closing them - that whole process is selling. If it's a cold call, the whole process of getting their attention and getting them to listen to me is also selling, apart from stuff like a USP, the offer, the hook and so on which would be prepared by marketing. But navigating and using that to close the guy - that's sales.

                  And I will 100% disagree here. Go on to youtube and look up Mcdonalds ads, everything you say is a guess? Social, Economic, Racial, Age its all right there. So they are selling and not "advertising" AKA marketing?

                  The hands down best marketing piece ever... Gary Halbert ( https://swiped.co/file/coat-of-arms-...-gary-halbert/ ) does all the thing you are saying cant be done. Everyone with the last name "MacDonald" ( coincidence - McD's and MacDonald ) got the exact same letter

                  Ad targeting is an artform unto itself. Im still learning, I dont run a one AD, I run 10 to 40 ususally and the targets are different for each and every one ( refering to online efforts )
                  This is good, and I don't disagree with you, targeting more narrowly will give you better results. However, you will still not target SPECIFIC needs, but an average. An average that will be closer to their SPECIFIC needs as you narrow your targetting, but still an average!

                  Yes, even in HALBERT's case. One person's specific need is to have something to remember their Grandfather who built the family's home, and that represents all of them together. Another wants it as a gift for their parents. And so on. Sure, Halbert's letter covers all of them GENERALLY, but NEVER specifically.

                  So even in Halbert's case, if a salesman got on the phone with those peeps, I'm sure they'd get a lot of extra sales.

                  BUT... me being a marketer first... I simply would not have done this. I would have built Authority first above and beyond anything else. its not that your efforts failed, YOU set yourself up for failure. YOU were basically guessing. This is going to sound conceded or something, but I dont guess... I start with a baseline of my understanding of my optimal target yes, but testing and data refines the message and the target over time.
                  So inside my agency I had developed, at a time, a very novel way of marketing e-commerce physical products. I built a course around it, and sold to the get rich and make gazillions audience. The biz-op market as it's known. People are very tired of offers and promises in this market. It was very difficult to sell via email. But much easier via chat (online) or chat via Zoom/phone.

                  So how would you have built authority first? Start a YouTube channel I guess, build a personal brand, create a ton of content etc. etc. I come from a direct response background, I was looking for the fastest way to monetize it as an info product.



                  You cant say that your email messaging wasn't different and then say you just had to ask questions and then position your marketing to fit their needs. So YES, your messaging was DIFFERENT. You were identifying needs within the phone call that I will more than bet were not addressed in the e-mails. Again, it sounds as if your e-mails were more guessing, and less actual knowledge of your potential buyer

                  So see what? uncovering buyers needs? THAT should have been done prior to sending the e-mails
                  Yep, and it was done. So what? Yes, this niche in the biz-op market wants to make a gazillion dollars, 20-30 year olds, mostly male. Yes they want to be rich, drive a sports car, have their high school enemies watch them in the sports car with the hot girl, have the freedom to travel, etc. etc. It's the same at a general level. But now let's go into specifics...

                  One guy wants to open a store selling kitchen utensils which are handmade in Japan to make that money. Why? Because he finds it easier for himself, and reminds him of his grandmother who was a cook. And he wants a red Ferrari, because that's what he saw his older brother drive when he was a kid and he always wanted the same. And he's actually gay, so he wants to show his male partner that he's the alpha in the relationship. He wants to live in Switzerland in a house, rather than an apartment. And so on.

                  So the only way to target that guy's specific needs with an ad is to narrow the targeting so much that the ad is only meant for him. Which is self-defeating.

                  When I say that the messaging wasn't different in the email vs the sales call, that's what I mean. The messaging was the general one in the email, and the specific, tailored one in the sales call. Essentially the message is saying the same thing. But in one case, it has MUCH stronger emotional resonance for a specific person, than in the other.

                  Look, I am decent on the phone, better in person but decent on the phone, BUT when I can target very specifically what I am selling, my online efforts ( I dont do a lot of e-mails ) crush my phone call selling - but I tend to cold call. Marketing in person... blows every other method right out of the water... like right up there with why would I bother.

                  I can tell you why I bother... and thats REACH. This is me, this is my experience - as a fellow agency owner.. stop with the phone and stay local to you, and go door to door - Word of mouth and 3 of us most the time going door to door keep 4 programmers 2 Artist, and 2 social media folks more than busy.
                  I get you, but I don't want to be local. I have no local clients actually. My clients have all been in US/UK and at my highest I've had 18 people working in one way or another for me.

                  There is a similar strategy to what you're saying online. Dominate a specific community. Like WarriorForum, a Facebook group, etc. and start your brand there...

                  I've done neither. I just went after clients in specific niches and developed processes that are tailor made to scale them. Coaching is actually one such niche.


                  You keep saying - it takes time... but then say I havent Marketed because I am to busy selling. You are the proverbial hamster on an exercise wheel... movin 1000 mph but going no where. I have been there, and I have done that. YOU as a business owner HAVE TO afford the time for marketing on a daily basis. Where would you be today if you started your marketing efforts a year ago?
                  Probably I'd have a lot more clients coming to me, rather than having to search for them or use my previous clients for referrals. In that sense, I would have been in a better place, for sure.


                  The biggest misconception of Branding is that its hard and takes time - If you are trying this on a national Look Im Tony Robbins level.. uh yeah.. super hard. Did Tony Robbins become a world wide brand over night? I dont know his particular story, but do know it didnt happen over night... He didnt justclick over night become a world wide brand, or a national brand or a State brand.. he started LOCAL

                  If you listen to the podcast Claude left above: ( https://www.warriorforum.com/main-in...l#post11694675 ) Dan Kennedy right... right there with Tony Robbins you can listen to that podcast and understand he started with talking to real estate folks LOCALLY multiple times a day times a day - Man on a mission - probably did it for months on end.

                  YOU have to take steps... one after the other after the other... and if you dont start...youll never get to the top. You cant win the lottery if you dont buy a ticket right? Your seeing the END, the Goal and not realizing there is a path that has to be taken to get there.... Or more accurately you see the path and have decided to put it off because the road is to long.

                  Short term actions will only produce short term results. Avoiding the long term actions that produce long term results keeps you on the exercise wheel. Again, been there done that.

                  Pick a local strip mall..and say there is 15 different stores, and you walk in and land 3 of those stores as clients, AND you have talked to the other 12. How long before your 3 clients are excited about your efforts that your name is brought up in conversation with the other 12 store owners? BRAND AWARENESS right? and hopefully a referal or 2.

                  You put me in a place that has 15 business' lined up like that... over time, I will CLOSE 12 of them. and they are only 15 minutes away from my office.

                  BRANDING for the little guy, is about a tight geographical area.. not the entire city plastered with Billboards... a strip mall, 2 blocks in downtown small town USA, A just outside of town commercial district.

                  I dont know if you know or not... but business types cluster. Doctors are next to doctors, Lawyers are next to court houses, Dentist are next to Dentists Restaurants are next to restaurants, Fast food is next to other fast food, Auto part stores are next to other auto parts stores. I dont niche my services... I build websites, and do SEO and CRO and interior and exterior applications - business is business, and getting people in the front door is universal

                  If YOU have an ideal target, you can geographically target that area, to allow BRANDING to work for you, long before you are Tony Robbins.
                  This is all great advice for the right person, thanks for sharing it. I myself come from a direct marketing background - because of how I've been trained and how I've made my living really, I'm wary of branding efforts that don't have a trackable result that is financially quantifiable. I am aware that this is needed to build a personal brand - like Gary V and so on, and that's probably the direction I'll need to head in. But because of my indoctrination into direct response, brand advertising and marketing doesn't come naturally to me.

                  In regards to coaching... a subject that is a bit of a pet peeve for me... you EARN being a coach, you dont develop a business as a coach. Coaching comes after branding, and not before. And here in lies why most coaches suck.
                  I'm not sure I understand what you mean? Can you break it down?

                  Sure, as a coach, you need credibility and proof of results. But how do you get that except by working with people? Coaches are actually one of the niches I serve, I have a very specific business and marketing process to help a coach scale from $0 to $10K/mo, and another to help them go from $10K to $100K/mo. Most of these people in the first group have very backwards marketing, do too much branding and posting content (much of which isn't even that good), and not enough selling and chasing after people. Once we solidify their business, and fix foundational issues (pricing, having a niche, positioning, attractive/unique offer, clear buyer persona etc. etc.) it's just a numbers game. Keep chasing the customers, pump up your pipeline, and then start selling and closing them. Make sure you don't hop on calls with those who aren't a good fit etc. etc. Have a process to convert them, don't waste your time, etc. Process to ask for referrals, for testimonials from each and every one, and so on. The second group, branding and content and what not becomes more important, to get to those bigger numbers. But even there, a lot of foundational problems still exist. And they also need a lot of sales... just that the sales involve more than just one product/offer for the most part.

                  So how do you even build a coaching brand WITHOUT coaching?
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            • Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

              For me personally, i look at this and wonder... The list that got the 22 e-mails being no different than the list the telemarketers had... Apples to Apples What was the GAP between the message in the e-mails and the telemarketing pitch? GRANTED this was a time ago.. BUT it also probably occurred when open rates and close rates for e-mail was at it's best.

              I remember the conversation.
              They didn't get 22 e-mails. These were all direct mail offers to subscribers of Kennedy's paid newsletter ($39 a month, at the time). The open rate for Kennedy's paid subscribers was 100%. I was one of them. And I was one that bought from direct mail.

              They got offers in the newsletter, and separate direct mail offers.

              This is the same list the telemarketers called. These were loyal Kennedy fans.

              The reason the call worked where the direct mail didn't is this...

              There were lots of people getting the direct mail offers that almost bought. They were considering it. But there was nothing to prompt them to buy that day.

              The telemarketers turned them from "almost bought" to "Barely bought".

              And in my experience, most in person sales presentations to a qualified prospect are either almost made or barely made. The difference in the customer's thinking is minor. But the difference in skill required is vast.

              I made 7,200 in home sales. The vast majority were barely made. And when one of my reps made the presentation? The majority were almost made. That's why I could call the next day and get the sale...they were still almost ready to buy.

              About the Kennedy offer. After I talked to Bill Glazer, I realized that after I bought, I stopped getting offers, and got no call. I wanted to see (and study) all the offers in the sequence.

              So the next event, I didn't buy a ticket until I got the phone call. Truth be told, I was disappointed in the caller. He was trained, but wasn't that skilled. I bought anyway.

              To me it was evidence that it wasn't so much the skill of the telemarketer...it was the fact that someone called at all.

              The prospects from affiliates didn't get a phone call or any direct mail from Kennedy. The affiliate leads just got online offers. No idea how many.

              At the event I was at, most of the attendees were from Kennedy's list of subscribers. We were used to giving him money. At a few events held much later, most of the attendees were from affiliates. The ticket prices had dropped. The price of offers sold from the stage also dropped.

              Soon after, Kennedy sold the whole ball of wax. He's back, but now it's full of internet marketers more that brick and mortar business owners.

              Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

              You obviously buy things from Amazon.. when was the last time they ( Amazon ) called you? Have you ever had a call from a seller? I have... I bought something, they sent the wrong thing not once but twice, and I left a bad review. The SELLER contacted me by phone asking that I change my rating and review. My review after that went from bad to worse.

              From a pure online point of contact, a phone call to the buyer is probably more detrimental than good. The whole point of the buyer, buying online, was its now and done, and they didn't have to talk to someone - usually a call center offshore.
              You are describing one instance. A poorly executed instance.

              Let me clear this up.. You don't make a call to someone who bought already (unless you tell them ahead of time in the presentation). You call the people who didn't buy, but could have.

              I get calls from Godaddy. Very helpful calls. Sometimes I buy. Sometimes I don't. But they are genuinely helpful. Their reps are highly trained. Amazon never calls because that's not the relationship. And...you aren't Amazon's customer. They are just where you see the offers.

              I never called anyone who bought from me online. Why would I? They didn't ask me to call. I wasn't invited. I may give them a reason to call me, and then they would get an offer.


              But people who bought from me in my store?

              As an experiment, I called customers who had bought an expensive vacuum from me 5 years ago. I did this several times. I would tell them that new models came in and I wanted to see how much their vacuum was worth. And at least give it a free service.

              I did this several times for about an hour. Nothing I ever did paid me as well in retail. A personal phone call was always welcome, and often they came in and bought.

              Added later;

              I apologize. In my previous post I said that the list got direct mail and online offers. Kennedy people got only direct mail offers and a phone call at the end. Affiliate offers were all just online offers, with no phone call.

              Sorry for the confusion.
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              • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                in my experience, most in person sales presentations to a qualified prospect are either almost made or barely made. The difference in the customer's thinking is minor. But the difference in skill required is vast.
                I get what you are saying... and I agree to.. its not that I disagree its more that I understand your prospect process, and I am sure you understand mine. They are different.

                I walk around in a defined geographically tight area... i talk to 15, and may sell to 3. BUT because those 3 are geographically tight, the possibility of any of the 12 knowing and talking to the 3 increases.

                You own a store... im sure you ask ( or are asked) the usual "How Are Sales?" or "Its been slow this month" These "Normal" conversations, are gateways for referrals. I believe we both can agree that referral's are a notch or 3 above a cold call, and right in there with (+/-) a warm lead.

                I have strategically put myself in this situation. Its just to hard and time consuming to compete at a national level..and throw in travel time and this and that, the profit margins are no where near the same,and instead of and planes and trains i am 15 minutes from the Office, or a cluster of 10 clients an hour from the office. Smarter not Harder if you will. What separates me from probably every other web designer you might now? A vast majority of my client base is no more than say 125 miles from the office. If it wasnt for state lines being 50 miles away in 3 of the 4 directions I would prefer to have ALL of my clients in one state.

                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                I get calls from Godaddy. Very helpful calls. Sometimes I buy. Sometimes I don't. But they are genuinely helpful. Their reps are highly trained. Amazon never calls because that's not the relationship. And...you aren't Amazon's customer. They are just where you see the offers.
                I had a giggle with this one... Your GoDaddy acct and mine.. worlds apart I am sure, and I can not recall ever once have they called, I just checked and people that may answer my phone cant think of gate keeping that call from me either. To funny

                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                I never called anyone who bought from me online. Why would I? They didn't ask me to call. I wasn't invited. I may give them a reason to call me, and then they would get an offer.
                Follow up and upselling? And to be clear I do not either... BUT I do enter the address into my physical postal mailing list based apon what was purchased. eBay Etsy, Amazon, Marketplace - each and every order


                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                But people who bought from me in my store?

                As an experiment, I called customers who had bought an expensive vacuum from me 5 years ago. I did this several times. I would tell them that new models came in and I wanted to see how much their vacuum was worth. And at least give it a free service.

                I did this several times for about an hour. Nothing I ever did paid me as well in retail. A personal phone call was always welcome, and often they came in and bought.
                In my Satellite business its kind of the exact opposite - Kinda. Sat TV/internet works with 2 yr contracts. I am not going to call a client we installed for untili see that I am no longer getting the monthly customer payment, and THEN have to wait 2 yr and 1 month to convert them back.

                As I have mentioned on Offline before I cold call potential clients based simply on literally where the cable ends...no cable means no TV unless its Sat. When we started asking how much longer was left on their contract, thats when things got easy. Like I have mentioned in my last post here... DATA DATA DATA. I at this point have a database of over 15,000 Sat TV and Internet clients, and their contract dates. I know within a window of 30 days give or take when they are going to be out of contract, and eligible to get "New Service" deals ( 2 yrs and a month - if they had a service I am selling previous to the current service.

                I have recently started kicking out a list to a guy on the other side of the cycle ( I sell Directv and he sells Dish ) and we aere now flip flopping clients, and I get paid on both ends now.
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      @Tanda Copywriting

      I'm going to break out of responding line for line here. I recognize you and I maybe paralleled, but at opposite ends of the track.

      There is this common theme that I cant target well enough...and its simply not true.. as WIDE as my Niche is, it is more targeted than what you are doing. YOU have to go in and fin and define pain points... I already know what they are... I have a clearly defined Prospect and client.. I can market to a specific need or list of needs.

      The irony in my target base is that it is by no means "Niched Down" as most would think of it. I target specifically Brick and mortar business' Forget what they sell or what service they offer, each and every business at a minimum needs 1 thing and 1 thing only, and thats feet through the door. And preferably, qualified feet through the door.

      THAT is what separates Marketing from Selling... You sell, and I dont, Marketing does all of my heavy lifting. Using my Google Maps strategy I can walk in spend 10 minutes and come back a week later with a real time demonstration of my ability - I generally walk back in with a contract in hand - its kinda like taking candy from a baby.

      To take the whole idea to another level of crazy... I target the untargeted... General and pretty much universal "Sales Advice"; sell websites to people that have them already, they are proven buyers.

      I on the other hand, specifically look for business' that DO NOT have one, arent listed on Google, and do so with Marketing... most business' think Facebook is enough... and I respond "Ok then, the next time you are in your car and headed to work, have Facebook give you directions to your business" This is generally followed up with pulling up their facebook page and asking where their business address is - I then follow that up with me talking into my phone and saying "Hey Google and my company name" guess what comes up? Phone #, Address, directions button, website, hours, photos - all kinds of stuff

      If you like it or not... THATS marketing - THIS is what I have done for myself, and I can do the exact same thing for you. Its generally amazing how fast the conversation goes right to price after that - and I don't offer discounts.

      Give or take 30 minutes start to finish... My business needs 10 of these a week 40 to 45K a week, 50 weeks a year, a with a sales staff of 3. and that's JUST web design.

      Each and every service under my roof with a few outliers is directly related to services and products needed by a brick and mortar business. I can cross sell, upsell for days. I don't look at single transactions... I am looking at life of customer. I don't want a "SALE" I want 4 and 5 and 10 years of continued sales.... and you simply can not do that with changing up your spiel to each and every instance.

      I am going to be honest here and say straight up... I stumbled on the concept... I don't know anyone else that does what I do... and when you get into it and look under the hood of what is going on.. I think it makes perfect sense - and obviously it does, because I have sold the web design aspect of my business once already ( wont ever do that again )

      in a nutshell... I am a small business owner that supplies services that my business does for my business in house... nothing less nothing more... I KNOW the pains of a small business, because I am one. And it absolutely does not matter if I am dealing with a butcher, a baker, or a candlestick maker... all of their pain points are the exact same as mine - Getting clients.

      Think its far fetched... and I am full of it? Uh go look up "Claude Whitacre" on Google... goto his website, whats the message on the home page? Difference between me and Claude... he speaks, and I am a service provider.

      PS - Claude by the way, I haven't looked you up in a while.. WTF!?!?! WTG!! with absolutely dominating your name on Google - geeze oh pete, thats impressive - have to go all the way to page 4 to find a link for some other Claude other than you.
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      • Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

        There is this common theme that I cant target well enough...and its simply not true.. as WIDE as my Niche is, it is more targeted than what you are doing. YOU have to go in and fin and define pain points... I already know what they are... I have a clearly defined Prospect and client.. I can market to a specific need or list of needs.
        Well, I'll start by saying that I'd love to learn more about how you're doing things because it sounds very different from how I've built my business, and there's always a ton we can learn from those who do things differently. So if you're open to it, that's what I'll be trying to do...

        Now, as I've said, I come from a direct response background. Not sure what your background is, but you seem to be a lot more into the brand-building aspect, which I'm trying to learn more about now.

        In direct response, we keep things simple... ONE product, ONE offer, ONE target customer. At least until $1M or so in revenue. The reason being that we want our offer to be so good, that they'd be insane to say no to it. In addition, we also want the offer to be unique - they can't get it anywhere else, and therefore we command premium pricing.

        Now, I could get my business to $1M using my system. I'd be working full-time and will need to add a full sales team, but we can just press that gas pedal on outbound and get there if that's what I wanted. I know that because I know the numbers I get, and all I have to do to scale is increase the volume of outreach.

        It's all super scientific, because I know if I do this on this side, I get that result on the other side. That's direct response.

        And it's all about being very clear about who you're targeting, what problem you're solving for them, how, and what's the result they can expect. And you don't need much credibility at all to get started. I can take a newbie off the streets, and so long as he can learn the systems and listen to my guidance, he will get sales... not as easily as I do, with testimonials and proof, but he will get enough to be able to build those testimonials and proof. The step most people lose out on is that they give up too soon, or their pricing strategy doesn't make it economical given their time investment.

        Now I think you are wrong about being more targetted than I am. I also go after people who want more customers. I also have a clearly defined prospect and customer. I also market to a specific list of needs. It's just that I tailor those needs to be ultra-specific to the person I'm speaking with. Take the "get more clients need". One person is working part-time in their business, the other full time. The one working part-time wants more clients, as the one working full time and looking to expand. However, the motivation of those needs is different. So when I speak with one I tell them "so that it can help you get more clients, and get you to the stage where you're working full time on this business and you can quit your job" while to the other I might say "so that you can get more customers in an automated way that frees up your time and allows you to spend more of it with your family". I also don't bring up needs if they don't apply to the specific person I'm talking to.

        So I don't think I'm "not targetted" well enough at all. I am targetted, it's just that the sales aspect adds extra value to the process. I could remove it, which would lower my conversion rates drastically. Then make up for it through volume? I honestly find that too hard.


        Each and every service under my roof with a few outliers is directly related to services and products needed by a brick and mortar business. I can cross sell, upsell for days. I don't look at single transactions... I am looking at life of customer. I don't want a "SALE" I want 4 and 5 and 10 years of continued sales.... and you simply can not do that with changing up your spiel to each and every instance.
        But I don't change the spiel each and every instance. It's always the SAME product/offer. It's just a matter of adjusting the positioning.

        I am going to be honest here and say straight up... I stumbled on the concept... I don't know anyone else that does what I do... and when you get into it and look under the hood of what is going on.. I think it makes perfect sense - and obviously it does, because I have sold the web design aspect of my business once already ( wont ever do that again )

        in a nutshell... I am a small business owner that supplies services that my business does for my business in house... nothing less nothing more... I KNOW the pains of a small business, because I am one. And it absolutely does not matter if I am dealing with a butcher, a baker, or a candlestick maker... all of their pain points are the exact same as mine - Getting clients.
        I mean, your approach sort of reminds me of Grant Cardone in the interview with Jordan Belfort. I'm more of a Jordan Belfort guy - my system is tuned to perfection, very high conversion rates, very little time wasted speaking with people who're not a fit, just need to turn it on, and boom, I've got leads and clients.

        Whereas it seems to me you're doing multiple touches to the same guys until you get them (whereas I do multiple touches just checking for interest and if not bye bye), have a ton of varied products you sell them, it doesn't seem like your services/products are unique in any way, and so on.

        I guess I just struggle to understand how you get this system to work. As I said, I struggle to understand how someone does brand building without a direct response component. To me, direct response is essential to be able to know what's working and what's not, and where your results are actually coming from, so that you can fine-tune the system. But I can already hear you and Cardone being like 'What system? There is no system dude. There is no trick' LOL!
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        • Profile picture of the author savidge4
          Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

          Now, as I've said, I come from a direct response background. Not sure what your background is, but you seem to be a lot more into the brand-building aspect, which I'm trying to learn more about now.
          My Background, I literally just about grew up in a family owned print shop, happens to have been the largest family owned printshop west of the Mississippi. Everything from brochures to quarterly reports to milk jug labels - and anything and everything in between. I was surrounded by layout and design and color and printed word. The internet and Print are exact parallels. Page layout is page layout. Logo design is logo design. Color psychology, and language psychology - all the same. Right down to the process' needed to take something to print vs publish something on the net - exactly the same.

          Yes I very much brand build... I build brand, and I leverage brand BUT I to am very much a direct response type of guy. So that maybe we are on the same page lets both look at: ( https://www.marketingevolution.com/m...irect-response ) and use this as a definition of "Direct Response". To ADD to this I use Direct Response in conjunction with Inbound Marketing.

          Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

          In direct response, we keep things simple... ONE product, ONE offer, ONE target customer. At least until $1M or so in revenue. The reason being that we want our offer to be so good, that they'd be insane to say no to it. In addition, we also want the offer to be unique - they can't get it anywhere else, and therefore we command premium pricing.
          And it is right here that you and I split ways... One product, One offer and you are shooting yourself in the foot. I am glad you mention the Grant Cardone interview with Jordan Belfort, as I was reading this, I was actually going to link it. I am nowhere near Grant.... What if the guy doesn't want fish, he wants steak... I would be pulling out steak. Go back and watch the video. Early in the interview they talk about number of products - NOBODY sells ONE item.

          I call my business a one stop small business resource... there is literally nothing a small business owner would need that we don't offer... There are many services they didn't know they needed that we provide - Far far far from one product. For the most part the services we provide are not that unique... What separates us in the market space is #1, Geography... we are neighbors. If your website needs a photo... we dont ask you to take it, we send someone to take the photo. Business owners get calls every day Google this, Website that.. how many people walk in their door? <two thumbs> THIS guy.

          #2 I don't present what we do as a "Website", Its a "Machine", it works 24/7/365. We can start with the basic machine, and then we can add this accessory and that one and the other one. All of this is designed to do 1 thing and one thing only, and that is to draw foot traffic... Oh, but you want people to buy on the web? we have e-comm solutions as well.

          Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

          Now, I could get my business to $1M using my system. I'd be working full-time and will need to add a full sales team, but we can just press that gas pedal on outbound and get there if that's what I wanted. I know that because I know the numbers I get, and all I have to do to scale is increase the volume of outreach.
          You could... at what expense? $1,000,000 Gross turns to what in Net? Inbound? and again you could.. and I bet you could do it all yourself - what does that do to your NET?

          Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

          It's all super scientific, because I know if I do this on this side, I get that result on the other side. That's direct response.
          Sorry, I had to giggle here, your method is not scientific - its just pushing at scale, come over to my side of the street and have a guy with a PHD in math crunching numbers for me... THATS scientific... I just have a lowly BA in Electronic Engineering... the nonsense my guy does is beyond my pay grade.

          Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

          And it's all about being very clear about who you're targeting, what problem you're solving for them, how, and what's the result they can expect. And you don't need much credibility at all to get started. I can take a newbie off the streets, and so long as he can learn the systems and listen to my guidance, he will get sales... not as easily as I do, with testimonials and proof, but he will get enough to be able to build those testimonials and proof. The step most people lose out on is that they give up too soon, or their pricing strategy doesn't make it economical given their time investment.
          Above I stated: " I build brand, and I leverage brand ". When I walk into a business and say "I see your not listed in Google Maps, do you have 10 minutes and I can add your business?" They will ask something along the lines of "How are you going to do that?" and the response is " we are partners with Google and I can use an APP called Google Attribute" to input additions and changes to Google Maps. " I just LEVERAGED Googles brand to remove any doubt in credibility.

          Once I add the information, I hand them a card and basically set an appointment, "I will be back next whatever day and see how things are going" and done. I get a notice usually in a few hours now that the changes have been made, or the business added. Sometimes, the business owner will call... to let us know that the listing is up... others, and I have been told this time and again, actually wait until I said I would come back - being a test of sorts. I got them listed, they are seeing an amount of results, and I showed up when I said I was going to - Helps the Credibility / Trust department.

          Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

          Now I think you are wrong about being more targetted than I am. I also go after people who want more customers. I also have a clearly defined prospect and customer. I also market to a specific list of needs. It's just that I tailor those needs to be ultra-specific to the person I'm speaking with. Take the "get more clients need". One person is working part-time in their business, the other full time. The one working part-time wants more clients, as the one working full time and looking to expand. However, the motivation of those needs is different. So when I speak with one I tell them "so that it can help you get more clients, and get you to the stage where you're working full time on this business and you can quit your job" while to the other I might say "so that you can get more customers in an automated way that frees up your time and allows you to spend more of it with your family". I also don't bring up needs if they don't apply to the specific person I'm talking to.
          but ALL of that explaining is summed up with "Get more clients without spending more time, giving you the ability to get even more clients, or spend time with your family." And yet, you are sharing you COULD grow to $1,000,000 but it requires a ton of resources and training and time and this and that and the other to the point you have talked yourself out of it, because it is to much work.

          2 hours a day: ( https://www.warriorforum.com/warrior...days-ebay.html ) 6 digits after all expenses. The system less guy with a step by step blueprint to making life changing money, and not a single phone call, Leveraging BRAND ( eBay in this case ) and selling far more than one product... thinking about it, When was the last time you visited a website other than your own that sold ONE thing? Last time you were in a store that sold ONE thing? Coca Cola doesn't make JUST Coca Cola... Apple doesn't just sell one iPhone...

          Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

          So I don't think I'm "not targeted" well enough at all. I am targeted, it's just that the sales aspect adds extra value to the process. I could remove it, which would lower my conversion rates drastically. Then make up for it through volume? I honestly find that too hard.
          Without knowing exact details right, and basing what I know as what I have read here...you are trying to put / forcing a square peg in a round hole.

          I have this ONE product... and I can call people and tailer ( and dare I say manipulate ) this ONE product to match their needs specifically?

          How many have you sold? Have you kept notes on selling points on each and every call? Have you taken that ONE report and customized the report to meet the needs of repeat customer types? Say plumbers, and electricians, and brick Layers. Down below where you say " What system? There is no system dude. There is no trick' " Oh I got systems... THIS is targeting, THIS is what I am refering to when I say your message is NOT the same, once you are on the phone and changing things up. THIS is how you get off the phone and turn Outbound to inbound - and its ALL Targeting, Your not Niched down enough.

          I would be turning one into 30 separate reports.. I would be offering 1on1 consultation at $100 an hour to start... If you run into a business owner that does not fit a niched down product, I would be taking that $100 and finding 2 local business owners of the same type of business and paying $50 ($50 X 2 ) for an interview to nail down that specific business' needs and creating yet another report.

          Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

          But I don't change the spiel each and every instance. It's always the SAME product/offer. It's just a matter of adjusting the positioning.
          Again the way I am reading this, and perception can be a MF, I get it, I could be wrong - but your "positioning" sounds like you are putting a square peg in a round hole.

          Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

          I mean, your approach sort of reminds me of Grant Cardone in the interview with Jordan Belfort. I'm more of a Jordan Belfort guy - my system is tuned to perfection, very high conversion rates, very little time wasted speaking with people who're not a fit, just need to turn it on, and boom, I've got leads and clients.

          Whereas it seems to me you're doing multiple touches to the same guys until you get them (whereas I do multiple touches just checking for interest and if not bye bye), have a ton of varied products you sell them, it doesn't seem like your services/products are unique in any way, and so on.
          Over time, my conversion rate is about 80%, what's your idea of "very high conversion rate"? Yes multiple touches... just like internet advertising... its all the same... people have to see / hear things 7 times ( backed by many a scientific study )

          When you say your a Belfort kinda guy, and you don't waste your time on anyone that isnt a perfect fit... your selling FISH.

          What makes what I offer unique... Is its all under one roof... My clients dont have a webguy, an SEO guy, a Social Media Guy, a Graphic artist, A Vehicle vinyl guy, a Sign Maker, A content creator, And each one is going to bash the other or think their way is better. My clients end up with consistency of message across all platforms - they have a machine that WORKS, not one that is disjointed and going every which direction.

          Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

          I guess I just struggle to understand how you get this system to work. As I said, I struggle to understand how someone does brand building without a direct response component. To me, direct response is essential to be able to know what's working and what's not, and where your results are actually coming from, so that you can fine-tune the system. But I can already hear you and Cardone being like 'What system? There is no system dude. There is no trick' LOL!
          Hopefully some of what I just said makes it clearer, and if not ask more questions. I employ INBOUND Direct Response, and to be honest I am not sure cold calling or even warm calling would be Direct Response. - It's technically not, in my book. There simply is not CTA ( Call to action ) on a phone call - there is an ASK, sure. BUT I still would say you are working way harder, with hesitation to scale, because you and I both know it would be a pain in the Ashtray.

          GordonJ left a post: ( https://www.warriorforum.com/main-in...l#post11695496 )read the article if you have time. The 2 best takeaways for me:

          "That's when I decided to turn Headline Formulas into a tool. I decided to focus on this for two simple reasons: 1) books are worth less than tools, and 2) it would be easy for me to build it, as I already had all the content ready."

          Takeaway #1 being "Books are worth less than Tools" and #2 I already had the content. This guy is NOT on the phone... He was 100% all in on Direct Inbound Marketing. AND he leveraged BRAND and content from a book he already wrote... Put this kind of together and its real easy to assume Gary V's Jab Jab Jab Right hook philosophy was the basis for his marketing structure... a bunch of on point content, With credibility of a Book ( And I will bet book sales went up ) and his TOOL / uh er I mean SaaS

          Once you have read the article, this guy, Danny Postma... I mean REALLY? built a site that just show cased website landers... wasnt monetized at all - what a NOOB right? How many times on this forum have I suggested doing the same thing? ( building a information based website ) Countless would be the answer. Why would I suggest this? #1 so you can practice the craft and obtain the skills needed to build such a thing,and #2 less spoken, it is BRANDING. Do you think he ( Danny ) may have leveraged the traffic from Landingfolio, over to his new project Headlime?

          So going back to " books are worth less than tools " Oh wait.. what do I do? I don't provide services, I build Machines AKA Tools... can you now maybe see the separation in market - the uniqueness.

          The very line "books are worth less than tools" is the exact reason I have always hesitated in developing courses or reports... Selling 1000 copies of a $29.00 report is simply not worth my time... I am however getting to the age where the thought of "Legacy" is creeping in.

          I might happen to be working on a line of products that relate to: ( https://www.warriorforum.com/warrior...days-ebay.html ) younever know.

          Again ask away, I am an open book
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          • Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

            My Background, I literally just about grew up in a family owned print shop, happens to have been the largest family owned printshop west of the Mississippi. Everything from brochures to quarterly reports to milk jug labels - and anything and everything in between. I was surrounded by layout and design and color and printed word. The internet and Print are exact parallels. Page layout is page layout. Logo design is logo design. Color psychology, and language psychology - all the same. Right down to the process' needed to take something to print vs publish something on the net - exactly the same.

            Yes I very much brand build... I build brand, and I leverage brand BUT I to am very much a direct response type of guy. So that maybe we are on the same page lets both look at: ( https://www.marketingevolution.com/m...irect-response ) and use this as a definition of "Direct Response". To ADD to this I use Direct Response in conjunction with Inbound Marketing.
            Okay, I sort of get you better now. Although I'd add one other comment here... For direct response to be direct response in a traditional way, it has to be trackable... you need to know what specific marketing effort your sale came from. If you read the classics - Hopkins, Caples, Schwab, Schwartz, Halbert - they all emphasized the necessity of being able to track how each individual ad or marketing material you put out there performs in terms of bringing you customers.

            And it is right here that you and I split ways... One product, One offer and you are shooting yourself in the foot. I am glad you mention the Grant Cardone interview with Jordan Belfort, as I was reading this, I was actually going to link it. I am nowhere near Grant.... What if the guy doesn't want fish, he wants steak... I would be pulling out steak. Go back and watch the video. Early in the interview they talk about number of products - NOBODY sells ONE item.

            I call my business a one stop small business resource... there is literally nothing a small business owner would need that we don't offer... There are many services they didn't know they needed that we provide - Far far far from one product. For the most part the services we provide are not that unique... What separates us in the market space is #1, Geography... we are neighbors. If your website needs a photo... we dont ask you to take it, we send someone to take the photo. Business owners get calls every day Google this, Website that.. how many people walk in their door? <two thumbs> THIS guy.
            NOBODY sells ONE item? Really?! What about people like Sam Ovens? 3 products, that's all it is for a $50M business. And actually everyone is sold only ONE product, the others are upsells. Alex Hormozi, built a $100M business by selling a lead gen system for gym owners. He even says himself that he subscribes by the $1M 1 product rule himself:
            https://www.youtube.com/embed/qxQIcDrre1E

            49:48 there.

            I used to sell about 14-16 different services. Now I don't sell services anymore. I sell to two niches, e-commerce, and coaches. I have a total of 4 systems that I sell, that's all. I no longer sell services. Services are a pain in the ass to sell, and require a lot of people to get right. Since everyone wants personalization, everyone wants their website to have this kind of page, and that kind of page and whatever. So I just sell results now, that are achieved by a system. There's nobody else out there who sells my system for achieving those results... so I have a unique mechanism from the get go.

            And now nobody gets personalization. It's the same system applied to everyone. The system that gets them to the result that they want.

            Quick question for you - what would you do if you couldn't market locally, but had to use online? If you lived, say, in India?

            #2 I don't present what we do as a "Website", Its a "Machine", it works 24/7/365. We can start with the basic machine, and then we can add this accessory and that one and the other one. All of this is designed to do 1 thing and one thing only, and that is to draw foot traffic... Oh, but you want people to buy on the web? we have e-comm solutions as well.
            So it sounds like you're selling a system... just like I am. That's ONE product. The e-com solutions bla bla those are features of the system, and they can either accept or reject those features.


            You could... at what expense? $1,000,000 Gross turns to what in Net? Inbound? and again you could.. and I bet you could do it all yourself - what does that do to your NET?
            My margins used to be 35% 2 years ago when I was at my biggest revenue-wise... last year 13% (due to a +25% tax increase on all my costs, mainly because I run biz through 4 separate entities, which at one time was smart, but now it's not anymore), this year it will be back to around 40% since I've systematized everything and got rid of people who weren't absolutely necessary (basically minimized my costs). Now, if I were to do it all myself, I'd make a huge net... 70-75% easily.

            Last year is when I started transitioning to this model of really only selling 4 products, to two markets, and that's it. It's MUCH MUCH better, mainly because delivery is much easier, and results are obtained with significantly greater consistency. I don't have to be involved so much in the execution of the services. The customer doesn't get to personalize anything - this is the system, this is what we're going to do, this is the process, and that's that. Pay up if you want to go through it and get the result. Like e-myth... the customer doesn't get a say, this is the process that gets you the result, if you want something else and you think you've got a better way there's the door, find someone else who can give you exactly what you want.

            Above I stated: " I build brand, and I leverage brand ". When I walk into a business and say "I see your not listed in Google Maps, do you have 10 minutes and I can add your business?" They will ask something along the lines of "How are you going to do that?" and the response is " we are partners with Google and I can use an APP called Google Attribute" to input additions and changes to Google Maps. " I just LEVERAGED Googles brand to remove any doubt in credibility.

            Once I add the information, I hand them a card and basically set an appointment, "I will be back next whatever day and see how things are going" and done. I get a notice usually in a few hours now that the changes have been made, or the business added. Sometimes, the business owner will call... to let us know that the listing is up... others, and I have been told this time and again, actually wait until I said I would come back - being a test of sorts. I got them listed, they are seeing an amount of results, and I showed up when I said I was going to - Helps the Credibility / Trust department.
            Smart!

            but ALL of that explaining is summed up with "Get more clients without spending more time, giving you the ability to get even more clients, or spend time with your family." And yet, you are sharing you COULD grow to $1,000,000 but it requires a ton of resources and training and time and this and that and the other to the point you have talked yourself out of it, because it is to much work.
            Yes, it can be summed up that way, but the emotional impact of that phrase is significantly less than if you add the other details that are specific to each person, and remove meaningless details.

            I don't want to scale to $1M, because for the past 2 years really, I've been putting minimal effort (well, as little as I could really) into my agency, and just kept it as a cash cow. I've been trying to build an info marketing business where I've invested quite a bit, made up my money for sure, but am behind in terms of my time investment. In other words, it sort of failed. I realised I'll need to build a personal brand to get it to work, so that's what I'll be trying to do this year.

            2 hours a day: ( https://www.warriorforum.com/warrior...days-ebay.html ) 6 digits after all expenses. The system less guy with a step by step blueprint to making life changing money, and not a single phone call, Leveraging BRAND ( eBay in this case ) and selling far more than one product... thinking about it, When was the last time you visited a website other than your own that sold ONE thing? Last time you were in a store that sold ONE thing? Coca Cola doesn't make JUST Coca Cola... Apple doesn't just sell one iPhone...
            Lots of websites... many of my coaching clients sell only one or a couple of products (less than 4). Sam Ovens. Alex Hormozi at one time. and so on.

            Sure, big businesses don't sell just one product. Billion-dollar companies. We're not at that level though... Brand advertising may work great for Coca Cola... but for a small business it leads to bankruptcy IMO. I don't care what Apple or Coca Cola do, because I simply can't execute on those strategies.

            Without knowing exact details right, and basing what I know as what I have read here...you are trying to put / forcing a square peg in a round hole.

            I have this ONE product... and I can call people and tailer ( and dare I say manipulate ) this ONE product to match their needs specifically?
            My product gets them the results they want. If they don't want that result, then they don't get to book a call. No info can be found online about my program. All the info is given on the call. And on that very same call they pull out their credit card and pay if they want it.

            It's all a system brother... There's a sales script, it's always the same script, always the same process. And the same for delivery. Back when I had 14-18 products, it was a pain in the butt to sell to people through outbound. Like you really had to work your butt off. Hustle, hustle. Now, it's easy. Because everything is the same each time. The funnel. The sales call. The delivery...

            How many have you sold? Have you kept notes on selling points on each and every call? Have you taken that ONE report and customized the report to meet the needs of repeat customer types? Say plumbers, and electricians, and brick Layers. Down below where you say " What system? There is no system dude. There is no trick' " Oh I got systems... THIS is targeting, THIS is what I am refering to when I say your message is NOT the same, once you are on the phone and changing things up. THIS is how you get off the phone and turn Outbound to inbound - and its ALL Targeting, Your not Niched down enough.
            For the info business you mean?

            Over time, my conversion rate is about 80%, what's your idea of "very high conversion rate"? Yes multiple touches... just like internet advertising... its all the same... people have to see / hear things 7 times ( backed by many a scientific study )
            50%... off 1 CALL dude. 1 single call.

            When you say your a Belfort kinda guy, and you don't waste your time on anyone that isnt a perfect fit... your selling FISH.
            Agreed...

            Hopefully some of what I just said makes it clearer, and if not ask more questions. I employ INBOUND Direct Response, and to be honest I am not sure cold calling or even warm calling would be Direct Response. - It's technically not, in my book. There simply is not CTA ( Call to action ) on a phone call - there is an ASK, sure. BUT I still would say you are working way harder, with hesitation to scale, because you and I both know it would be a pain in the Ashtray.
            There IS a call to action on the phone call... Pay XYZ right now! About working harder than inbound... maybe. I haven't figured out inbound yet, but I realise I need inbound for the info marketing biz I want to create if I am to get it off the ground... since price points there are much lower than my agency. My agency sells our systems for thousands, sometimes tens of thousands of dollars. That's why outbound makes sense. The moment LTV goes below like $3K, outbound makes less and less sense.

            GordonJ left a post: ( https://www.warriorforum.com/main-in...l#post11695496 )read the article if you have time. The 2 best takeaways for me:

            "That's when I decided to turn Headline Formulas into a tool. I decided to focus on this for two simple reasons: 1) books are worth less than tools, and 2) it would be easy for me to build it, as I already had all the content ready."

            Takeaway #1 being "Books are worth less than Tools" and #2 I already had the content. This guy is NOT on the phone... He was 100% all in on Direct Inbound Marketing. AND he leveraged BRAND and content from a book he already wrote... Put this kind of together and its real easy to assume Gary V's Jab Jab Jab Right hook philosophy was the basis for his marketing structure... a bunch of on point content, With credibility of a Book ( And I will bet book sales went up ) and his TOOL / uh er I mean SaaS
            Nice share, thank you for that

            So going back to " books are worth less than tools " Oh wait.. what do I do? I don't provide services, I build Machines AKA Tools... can you now maybe see the separation in market - the uniqueness.
            But... in my agency I do the same... except that I call them systems.

            The very line "books are worth less than tools" is the exact reason I have always hesitated in developing courses or reports... Selling 1000 copies of a $29.00 report is simply not worth my time... I am however getting to the age where the thought of "Legacy" is creeping in.

            I might happen to be working on a line of products that relate to: ( https://www.warriorforum.com/warrior...days-ebay.html ) younever know.

            Again ask away, I am an open book
            That's interesting... maybe I could bring my agency together with the info side through a SaaS like service for one of my audiences...
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            • Profile picture of the author savidge4
              Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

              Okay, I sort of get you better now. Although I'd add one other comment here... For direct response to be direct response in a traditional way, it has to be trackable... you need to know what specific marketing effort your sale came from. If you read the classics - Hopkins, Caples, Schwab, Schwartz, Halbert - they all emphasized the necessity of being able to track how each individual ad or marketing material you put out there performs in terms of bringing you customers.
              You keep bringing this up like some some dumb tail... Your tracking a phones call... duh easy... I track internet ads ( Google Facebook, Bing, you name it ), EDDM, Regular mailers, inbound web, inbound social, newspaper ads, TV ads... Its ALL trackable.

              The ONLY thing I can think of off the top of my head that is "harder" to track is billboards,and to be honest..I dont go out and do this just because...I do it like in times right now that billboard companies have tons of empty spaces and I can pick them up for the cost of producing the sign - NO monthly fees - untilthey find someone to rent a spot... YEAH, Im on it.

              You have this conceived notion of what branding is, and Its incorrect. Having a website URL and matching social handles - BRANDING... having consistent logos across all platforms - BRANDING. Having consistent messaging across all mediums - BRANDING. Having the windows of a store decaled up with company name etc - BRANDING. Having vehicles Decaled up - BRANDING


              NOBODY sells ONE item? Really?! What about people like Sam Ovens? 3 products, that's all it is for a $50M business. And actually everyone is sold only ONE product, the others are upsells. Alex Hormozi, built a $100M business by selling a lead gen system for gym owners. He even says himself that he subscribes by the $1M 1 product rule himself:
              https://www.youtube.com/embed/qxQIcDrre1E

              49:48 there.

              Ok you are not looking are you? Alex Hormozi as just one example.. sells equipment, merch, and a line of supplements, not to mention upselling one on one location ( being YOUR location ) consultation. They help with signage, and print, and ads and this and that and the other... I focus on Brickand Mortar as a whole, they are doing the same super niched for Gyms. And yeah sure they are "Upsells" but you cant look at them saying we made $100M and not for 2 seconds think that doesn't include the upsells.. I can imagine that 75% if not more of that income is the re-occurring "Upsells"

              Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

              I used to sell about 14-16 different services. Now I don't sell services anymore. I sell to two niches, e-commerce, and coaches. I have a total of 4 systems that I sell, that's all. I no longer sell services. Services are a pain in the ass to sell, and require a lot of people to get right. Since everyone wants personalization, everyone wants their website to have this kind of page, and that kind of page and whatever. So I just sell results now, that are achieved by a system. There's nobody else out there who sells my system for achieving those results... so I have a unique mechanism from the get go.

              And now nobody gets personalization. It's the same system applied to everyone. The system that gets them to the result that they want.
              Do you think what I do is "Personalized"? i have it down to fill in the blank. You were selling a service, I sell a machine - POSITIONING - Gets me out of the client knows best nonsense.

              Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

              Quick question for you - what would you do if you couldn't market locally, but had to use online? If you lived, say, in India?
              Your not going to like the answer to this one, I would so tap into the 2nd largest population on earth its not even funny. I would be buying top of the line courses from around the world and translating them in both language and culture and customs..I would then sell them IN INDIA at a price that is dictated on value in INDIA - IE making it affordable for the average person.

              There are simply so many handicaps for someone in India to try and get into say the American Market. Language being the biggest hurdle... Google isnt stupid, and thats why in general you do not see to many poorly written website in American Google search. The average, and maybe better than average Indian with a dream trying to make an American income is simply seeing the grass greener on the other side of the street and not realizing what they have right in front of them.


              Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

              So it sounds like you're selling a system... just like I am. That's ONE product. The e-com solutions bla bla those are features of the system, and they can either accept or reject those features.
              Uh no.. not even close actually... I lead with the Google maps thing..I learn a lot in those 10 minutes or so.. do they have social, do they have a website etc etc... I can sell each and every "Service" as a stand alone A website, Local SEO, store frontage, Vehicle, EDDM, Menus, Social Media, Content creation, Location renovations, Printing in general. Its no where near ONE product. Over time... I do my best to get people on as many services as I can obviously, but tghey are still Autonomous to them selves

              Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

              My margins used to be 35% 2 years ago when I was at my biggest revenue-wise... last year 13% (due to a +25% tax increase on all my costs, mainly because I run biz through 4 separate entities, which at one time was smart, but now it's not anymore), this year it will be back to around 40% since I've systematized everything and got rid of people who weren't absolutely necessary (basically minimized my costs). Now, if I were to do it all myself, I'd make a huge net... 70-75% easily.
              Because you are selling information... The tax man is just chewing you up... you have no asset investment, I get it. I run at 30 to 40% in cost. I re-invest a TON, if I dont spend it, the IRS will take it - so I just keep building and building and building.

              Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

              Last year is when I started transitioning to this model of really only selling 4 products, to two markets, and that's it. It's MUCH MUCH better, mainly because delivery is much easier, and results are obtained with significantly greater consistency. I don't have to be involved so much in the execution of the services. The customer doesn't get to personalize anything - this is the system, this is what we're going to do, this is the process, and that's that. Pay up if you want to go through it and get the result. Like e-myth... the customer doesn't get a say, this is the process that gets you the result, if you want something else and you think you've got a better way there's the door, find someone else who can give you exactly what you want.
              I ENJOY coding... I ENJOY the process of building... For whatever reason, and it I think more than anything comes down to dollars... I make far more selling "Services" than I would selling Information. Tools cost more than books. And at this point, I could easily start kicking info products...I have YEARS of real life experience, on how to build Systems... those that you sell to customers and the back end systems that make fulfillment super easy. Its all systemized

              Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

              Yes, it can be summed up that way, but the emotional impact of that phrase is significantly less than if you add the other details that are specific to each person, and remove meaningless details.
              I sell a lot of things online... a LOT... I understand the process, I understand the testing to make something that isnt working, work, and things that are working better. Its basically what I do all day long. YOU could be on some tropical island doing what you do if you focused on switching to inbound... and there would be little to no need for phone calls

              Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

              I don't want to scale to $1M, because for the past 2 years really, I've been putting minimal effort (well, as little as I could really) into my agency, and just kept it as a cash cow. I've been trying to build an info marketing business where I've invested quite a bit, made up my money for sure, but am behind in terms of my time investment. In other words, it sort of failed. I realised I'll need to build a personal brand to get it to work, so that's what I'll be trying to do this year.
              I cant agree more... again, you need to turn this around to inbound marketing


              Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

              Lots of websites... many of my coaching clients sell only one or a couple of products (less than 4). Sam Ovens. Alex Hormozi at one time. and so on.
              Again NO ONE sells one product...you can look at it from the outside and say oh yeah..they only sell one thing... its simply not the case...upsells or not, its selling something other than the ONE product...the ONE product is the point of entry... and even with that being said, Not something I would suggest... Even Cordone, basically selling the same product... but has it at 3 different price points...

              Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

              Sure, big businesses don't sell just one product. Billion-dollar companies. We're not at that level though... Brand advertising may work great for Coca Cola... but for a small business it leads to bankruptcy IMO. I don't care what Apple or Coca Cola do, because I simply can't execute on those strategies.
              Again, I am not sure you understand Branding? Coca Cola.. started in a Pharmacy back in the day at the Soda Fountain counter thingy in Atlanta Ga... what do you mean BRANDING doesnt work? How do you think they got to where they are today? Branding can only bankrupt you when you are deploying branding efforts that are beyond the scope of your business... Again BASIC BRANDING... a URL with Matching Social accounts... IE Savidge4 .com With Insta, Facebook, TikTok, Twiiter accounts with the name Savidge4 name. Use the same logo across all platforms.. if you have printed materials use the same logo. Business cards.. same logo and share the Social handles... Basic basic stuff... the foundation of BRAND.


              Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

              My product gets them the results they want. If they don't want that result, then they don't get to book a call. No info can be found online about my program. All the info is given on the call. And on that very same call they pull out their credit card and pay if they want it.

              It's all a system brother... There's a sales script, it's always the same script, always the same process. And the same for delivery. Back when I had 14-18 products, it was a pain in the butt to sell to people through outbound. Like you really had to work your butt off. Hustle, hustle. Now, it's easy. Because everything is the same each time. The funnel. The sales call. The delivery...
              Selling services outbound sucks, I 100% agree.. thats why I no longer SELL, I MARKET, Its a bit of a shift... I think everyone in Sales.. markets they just dont know it... What I really think is they push to hard ( SELL ) and tend to lose a lot.... When you are on the phone saying for you it does this that and the other, and you can spend more time with your kids? the words list of Benefits comes to mind.. and Benefits are what? MARKETING... you have no clue, you are no longer selling...your on the phone marketing...

              And I am here to tell you...you could EASILY be doing this with inbound tactics - ALL day long 24/7/365 Your entire process would be automated...all you would be doing is creating content to develop traffic

              Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

              50%... off 1 CALL dude. 1 single call.
              Thats GREAT... get on the phone and sell a $4000 to $12,000 product and see that number dive. My ONE service that i actually SELL... to a COLD list no less, I am right in the 30% close rate. Generally, takes more than one call, but the process is complicated IF I could get in front of these people face to face... it would be game on. But they run E-Commerce business, and its not like I can look them up in the phone book and just show up at their door.

              Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

              There IS a call to action on the phone call... Pay XYZ right now! About working harder than inbound... maybe. I haven't figured out inbound yet, but I realize I need inbound for the info marketing biz I want to create if I am to get it off the ground... since price points there are much lower than my agency. My agency sells our systems for thousands, sometimes tens of thousands of dollars. That's why outbound makes sense. The moment LTV goes below like $3K, outbound makes less and less sense.
              As I see it..and its just my take on it.. Inbound marketing needs a low end tripwire sale... a point of entry. You then jump to the bigger sale once you have proven yourself. I use a FREE listing in Google Maps, as the trip wire. I am developing a relationship, and building TRUST. In my world.. TRUST is the greatest hurdle to a sale. If they dont trust anything about the process, they will say NO... Its HOW you overcome the Friction that blocks you from the potential client answering YES to the ASK
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              • Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                You keep bringing this up like some some dumb tail... Your tracking a phones call... duh easy... I track internet ads ( Google Facebook, Bing, you name it ), EDDM, Regular mailers, inbound web, inbound social, newspaper ads, TV ads... Its ALL trackable.

                The ONLY thing I can think of off the top of my head that is "harder" to track is billboards,and to be honest..I dont go out and do this just because...I do it like in times right now that billboard companies have tons of empty spaces and I can pick them up for the cost of producing the sign - NO monthly fees - untilthey find someone to rent a spot... YEAH, Im on it.
                Yes, indeed they are trackable in that sense, but that's not what I meant. Brand advertising can use the same ad that direct response does. But brand advertising doesn't track sales from that specific ad... because, they will say, it is the whole series of ads that will be run over a 6 month period that leads to an increase in sales. So the point being that the sale CANNOT be tracked to one specific ad in brand advertising. And if tracked to the campaign over such a long period of time, it's hard to distinguish if the sales come from the campaign, some change in the market, a change in buyer preferences that isn't influenced by the campaign and so on. This is IMO a core difference between how brand advertising and direct response approach this differently.


                You have this conceived notion of what branding is, and Its incorrect. Having a website URL and matching social handles - BRANDING... having consistent logos across all platforms - BRANDING. Having consistent messaging across all mediums - BRANDING. Having the windows of a store decaled up with company name etc - BRANDING. Having vehicles Decaled up - BRANDING
                I see what you mean. Although I would argue that initially, for a new business, having the logo on the ad has zero value... in fact most direct response ads have no logo on the ad. The reason being that the brand has no equity to start with. So why use the logo? Of course, now the brand guys will argue that unless you use the logo, you won't build any equity and on we go.

                Check: https://wizardofads.org/direct-respo...al-difference/


                Ok you are not looking are you? Alex Hormozi as just one example.. sells equipment, merch, and a line of supplements, not to mention upselling one on one location ( being YOUR location ) consultation. They help with signage, and print, and ads and this and that and the other... I focus on Brickand Mortar as a whole, they are doing the same super niched for Gyms. And yeah sure they are "Upsells" but you cant look at them saying we made $100M and not for 2 seconds think that doesn't include the upsells.. I can imagine that 75% if not more of that income is the re-occurring "Upsells"
                All I was saying is that you'll have no problem in scaling to $1M using a single high ticket product with a sales force.


                Your not going to like the answer to this one, I would so tap into the 2nd largest population on earth its not even funny. I would be buying top of the line courses from around the world and translating them in both language and culture and customs..I would then sell them IN INDIA at a price that is dictated on value in INDIA - IE making it affordable for the average person.

                There are simply so many handicaps for someone in India to try and get into say the American Market. Language being the biggest hurdle... Google isnt stupid, and thats why in general you do not see to many poorly written website in American Google search. The average, and maybe better than average Indian with a dream trying to make an American income is simply seeing the grass greener on the other side of the street and not realizing what they have right in front of them.
                So technically to you I must be an impossibility. I'm based in Romania, and have always sold to the UK/US markets, with no problems. Hundreds of thousands worth over the years, if not actually millions. I know I've made millions for some of the clients I've worked with for sure. I have lived in the UK though before, and speak English better than a native speaker (minus the accent haha).


                Uh no.. not even close actually... I lead with the Google maps thing..I learn a lot in those 10 minutes or so.. do they have social, do they have a website etc etc... I can sell each and every "Service" as a stand alone A website, Local SEO, store frontage, Vehicle, EDDM, Menus, Social Media, Content creation, Location renovations, Printing in general. Its no where near ONE product. Over time... I do my best to get people on as many services as I can obviously, but tghey are still Autonomous to them selves
                Got you!

                Because you are selling information... The tax man is just chewing you up... you have no asset investment, I get it. I run at 30 to 40% in cost. I re-invest a TON, if I dont spend it, the IRS will take it - so I just keep building and building and building.
                I'm in the EU, but yeah, the tax man is eating me up heh...

                I sell a lot of things online... a LOT... I understand the process, I understand the testing to make something that isnt working, work, and things that are working better. Its basically what I do all day long. YOU could be on some tropical island doing what you do if you focused on switching to inbound... and there would be little to no need for phone calls
                Okay - let me humor you here. Let's take my agency. Let's take just one market there. Coaches. I sell two products (they are really business/marketing systems) - one for big hitters, the other for newbies. Obviously most of the successful newbies who buy the first one, end up buying the second. Both are systems meant to help them scale their businesses, which includes everything from sales, all the way to getting their business right.

                I currently reach out to people cold - they have NO CLUE about me, with the exceptions of referrals which are still an important source of growth to me.

                There is no public information about what I sell (I do have a website, but there's no specific information about any of the products). It's all given on calls.

                Out of 100 people I reach out to, roughly 1 buys, and my LTV last year, was $17,000. Entry level product is in the $4-6K range.

                Now, how am I supposed to transition to inbound and what would it take? Keep in mind that I'm also marketing only to US/UK.

                And I am here to tell you...you could EASILY be doing this with inbound tactics - ALL day long 24/7/365 Your entire process would be automated...all you would be doing is creating content to develop traffic
                OK - how do you do that? I'm ready to learn.
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                • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                  Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

                  Yes, indeed they are trackable in that sense, but that's not what I meant. Brand advertising can use the same ad that direct response does. But brand advertising doesn't track sales from that specific ad...
                  BUT this is top down Branding... from the big guys... A Super bowl commercial being an example... but it isnt as elusive as you might think... sales will go up or they will stay even, or they might drop once the 1 AD is displayed.

                  BUT look atthe ground level marketing that takes place... Coca Cola.. in the states at least drives around huge red trucks to make deliveries... Its BRANDING - I mean think about it, if you are driving a fleet of vehicles around each and every city why wouldnt you?

                  The question is then why wouldn't you do the same? Or lets make this a more accurate statements, I do business where i live, and why wouldn't i run around with decaled vehicles? You might be suprised how often we hear things like "I saw your truck at the neighbors and gave you a call"

                  Anyways.. you need to be looking at branding from the bottom up Something as benign as a logo can and does make a big impact. If you go look up Matthew Woodward on Google... he is a SEO guy and a number of years ago he changed his website format / colors / and logo.. and has some very inciteful articles on the subject.


                  Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

                  I see what you mean. Although I would argue that initially, for a new business, having the logo on the ad has zero value... in fact most direct response ads have no logo on the ad. The reason being that the brand has no equity to start with. So why use the logo? Of course, now the brand guys will argue that unless you use the logo, you won't build any equity and on we go.
                  The overall premise of the entire article is false... how do I know because I do... the Slap Chop has sold more in STORES than it ever even thought of selling from the TV commercial. "As Seen on TV" is THE Brand, and "Slap Chop" is the product.

                  Ever wonder how numbers of units sold appear on these commercials.. "Over 1,000,000 units sold ( as seen on the Slap Chop Commercial ) There were 3 commercials made for this product and all 3 had the same number of units sold - was it a lie? or as it sold in retail long before it was sold on tv? BTW they have sold in excess of 45 million units total.

                  Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

                  All I was saying is that you'll have no problem in scaling to $1M using a single high ticket product with a sales force.
                  And what I am saying is a few things #1 but it would not be sustainable. #2 Making $1,000,000 is easy... but Net Netting $1,000,000 - not so easy. #3 Proven fact... a 3-tiered product line outsells 1 unit, 2 units or 4 or more units. Its been tested 3 days to Sunday. Why exactly would you go against what is known to be more successful?

                  Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

                  So technically to you I must be an impossibility. I'm based in Romania, and have always sold to the UK/US markets, with no problems. Hundreds of thousands worth over the years, if not actually millions. I know I've made millions for some of the clients I've worked with for sure. I have lived in the UK though before, and speak English better than a native speaker (minus the accent haha).
                  a bit misleading right? I was communicating based on an internet business... and you are referring to cold calling. YOU in Romania will find the same hurdles in the American market. UNLESS you understand the ways to "Cheat" ( strong word ) "Work Around" maybe Google. It can be done... Like i said, it would take better than average, and maybe better than above average understanding of nodes and servers etc to work around this.



                  Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

                  Okay - let me humor you here. Let's take my agency. Let's take just one market there. Coaches. I sell two products (they are really business/marketing systems) - one for big hitters, the other for newbies. Obviously most of the successful newbies who buy the first one, end up buying the second. Both are systems meant to help them scale their businesses, which includes everything from sales, all the way to getting their business right.

                  I currently reach out to people cold - they have NO CLUE about me, with the exceptions of referrals which are still an important source of growth to me.

                  There is no public information about what I sell (I do have a website, but there's no specific information about any of the products). It's all given on calls.

                  Out of 100 people I reach out to, roughly 1 buys, and my LTV last year, was $17,000. Entry level product is in the $4-6K range.

                  Now, how am I supposed to transition to inbound and what would it take? Keep in mind that I'm also marketing only to US/UK.
                  Step one... in one way shape or form, what you are offering "Is out there" you need to start sharing and adding value.

                  There is a direct corrilation to amount of content and success - its really THAT simple. A one page website with little to no information isnt going anywhere fast. 10 pages of content... still not going fast. 50 or so pages and things start to move a bit..ad a social presents ( other than links to your latest blog post ) and you are breaking into the Authority thresh hold.

                  Your not starting from square one right? you have sales... you know what was said to make those sales happen... what you say to a full timer is different than what you say to a part timer... THATS content... If you are selling to coaches in a specific niche.. it would be advised to have content for that specific niche

                  At this point.. you really need to be looking down the road... whats next? can you expand the course to be more niche specific? more end user ( Full Time Part Time ) specific? can you change up the language to increase reach - meaning other niches?

                  Is there another product that would follow this one up?

                  Thinking laterally, and maybe even a step back, is there a web property you could start today that keeps you in the evergreen level and maybe not produce income, but is intended to develop traffic over time as new projects and opportunities arise.

                  BRAND... your name or a business name? I personally prefer business names, and have yet to use my name on any business that I own. I would have shot myself in the foot about 30 business' ago.

                  but again first and for most you have to give value in whatever form of content you feel comfortable with a Blog, Videos, TiKTok's Facebook, twitter, Instagram whatever it is... and preferably more than just one, and 3 or 4 of them.

                  Instead of playing out your preconceived notions of BRAND... start reading some differnt brands history.. how they got started... To see and understand where they are today... you have to understand where they started. Coke started in a fountain counter. KFC started in the Colonels kitchen, Sears started as a watch mail order business... Look at Mcdonalds.. there was no arch - nothing close to what it is today.

                  I say without BRAND even at the most basic level, and the desire to build something sustanable... it has to be there
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                  • Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post


                    Anyways.. you need to be looking at branding from the bottom up Something as benign as a logo can and does make a big impact. If you go look up Matthew Woodward on Google... he is a SEO guy and a number of years ago he changed his website format / colors / and logo.. and has some very inciteful articles on the subject.
                    I will check him out.

                    a bit misleading right? I was communicating based on an internet business... and you are referring to cold calling. YOU in Romania will find the same hurdles in the American market. UNLESS you understand the ways to "Cheat" ( strong word ) "Work Around" maybe Google. It can be done... Like i said, it would take better than average, and maybe better than above average understanding of nodes and servers etc to work around this.
                    I'm not sure I follow you here. Where would the difficulty come from, and why would I need a "work around"? Also, I never cold call nowadays, it's all via online conversations, and they only get a call if they're a good fit and show some interest. I vet really well, which is why I have 50% conversion rates on a call.

                    As far as I know, and I've worked with some affiliates from outside US in the past, ranking a website for the US market has never been much of an issue if that's what you mean?

                    In fact, I used to get 1-3 leads per month from my website, through inbound 2-3 years ago... they weren't great leads (I never really bothered about designing the website + content to narrow down very specifically on the target) but they were US ones.

                    Step one... in one way shape or form, what you are offering "Is out there" you need to start sharing and adding value.

                    There is a direct corrilation to amount of content and success - its really THAT simple. A one page website with little to no information isnt going anywhere fast. 10 pages of content... still not going fast. 50 or so pages and things start to move a bit..ad a social presents ( other than links to your latest blog post ) and you are breaking into the Authority thresh hold.

                    Your not starting from square one right? you have sales... you know what was said to make those sales happen... what you say to a full timer is different than what you say to a part timer... THATS content... If you are selling to coaches in a specific niche.. it would be advised to have content for that specific niche

                    At this point.. you really need to be looking down the road... whats next? can you expand the course to be more niche specific? more end user ( Full Time Part Time ) specific? can you change up the language to increase reach - meaning other niches?

                    Is there another product that would follow this one up?

                    Thinking laterally, and maybe even a step back, is there a web property you could start today that keeps you in the evergreen level and maybe not produce income, but is intended to develop traffic over time as new projects and opportunities arise.

                    BRAND... your name or a business name? I personally prefer business names, and have yet to use my name on any business that I own. I would have shot myself in the foot about 30 business' ago.

                    but again first and for most you have to give value in whatever form of content you feel comfortable with a Blog, Videos, TiKTok's Facebook, twitter, Instagram whatever it is... and preferably more than just one, and 3 or 4 of them.

                    Instead of playing out your preconceived notions of BRAND... start reading some differnt brands history.. how they got started... To see and understand where they are today... you have to understand where they started. Coke started in a fountain counter. KFC started in the Colonels kitchen, Sears started as a watch mail order business... Look at Mcdonalds.. there was no arch - nothing close to what it is today.

                    I say without BRAND even at the most basic level, and the desire to build something sustanable... it has to be there
                    Thanks will be thinking about it. Essentially I see it's content that would be the key to making this move to inbound, and I suppose some way to get traffic, either SEO or social media.

                    With regards to brand, I've always used a brand separate from my name for my agency, so I'd intend to continue that. I already do most of the basic branding you've mentioned above anyways. All materials people get as part of the system are branded and so on.
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      • Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

        @
        Think its far fetched... and I am full of it? Uh go look up "Claude Whitacre" on Google... goto his website, whats the message on the home page? Difference between me and Claude... he speaks, and I am a service provider.

        PS - Claude by the way, I haven't looked you up in a while.. WTF!?!?! WTG!! with absolutely dominating your name on Google - geeze oh pete, thats impressive - have to go all the way to page 4 to find a link for some other Claude other than you.
        Thanks for noticing.

        Yup. Several years ago I was a speaker at lots of events. Mostly selling my local online marketing service. And I've written quite a lot, and been interviewed a lot. All of that eventually shows up.

        It also helps that my name is Claude Whitacre. Almost nobody has that name or spelling. So that helps too.
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    • Profile picture of the author Profit Traveler
      Banned
      This resource is 4 years old but I am pretty sure it all still works great.

      https://turfmagazine.com/business-ma...siness-spring/

      1. Get A Website

      If you don't have a website, you should seriously consider getting one.


      3. Create Spring Related Website Content

      Already have optimized service pages for these? Start writing a blog based on high profile keywords in your area. People in your area might be using Google to research things like, "When to lay grass seed in the spring?"

      4. Join Local Trade Associations And Groups

      There's almost no better networking for a local business than to join local trade associations. All you have to do is a quick Google search and see what kind of entrepreneurial or trade groups are in your area that you can join.
      For instance, your local Chamber of Commerce is a given.

      5. Reach Out To Local Businesses

      6. Optimize Your Social Media Pages

      Whether most of your customers come from social media or not, people are looking for your brand not only through search engines like Google or Bing, but also through social media. They're looking at your community presence, your brand personality, the quality of your work, and most importantly your reviews on multiple platforms.

      7. Door Hangers

      Spring time yields a huge influx of customer calls and website form fills which means you'll likely have an uptick in customer property visits and new clients. Take this opportunity to have door hangers on hand to do quick 9-bys (or however many houses you want to canvas) and place door hangers nine houses in both directions and on both sides of the street.

      8. Wrap Your Truck (Or Get Magnets)

      A nice truck wrap goes a long way in getting you noticed. Everytime you go quote a yard or service a lawn, you're driving a mobile billboard. If you have the funds or capital to invest in a full body truck wrap, it will make you stand out from your competition.

      9. Professionally Designed Business Cards
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  • Profile picture of the author Mayank palodia
    Marketing and Sales both are two diffrent sides of a coin we cant compare these both both have their own importance and as a entrepreneur both are requires the same.
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  • Profile picture of the author VictorLoanz90
    Marketing is a very crucial part of the equation , not only does it help grow your business but it also raises awareness to your potential prospects if I were you being that you have a lawn care business your best bet would be to post YouTube videos of your work and testimonial reviews from your clients that'll help you tons.
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  • Profile picture of the author troy23
    Once your service is ready, the next step is to market it.

    It's fairly easy to get on page one of Google for a local service.
    We did it with our local language business.

    So learn how to optimise your website and link build in local directories to push your website higher up in the search engines.
    Facebook marketing also works well for us.
    There is not a lot to learn really,
    Post in local groups, create events if relevant.

    Also contribute and set yourself up a profile on the NextDoor website.
    I find marketing fairly straightforward for a local service.
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  • Hello, my name is Humberto and I live in Brazil. I love following the debates here on the forum. Thanks to the site, I started to learn and understand several things. I'm new to this area of ​​marketing and sales. Here in Brazil, the number of searches for "online betting" is increasing.

    Many people earning a lot of money with groups on telegram, charging monthly fees to send "betting tips". Including me too. I have a group with my friends, today we have 4 different groups; Basketball, Football and FIFA 1 and 2 (promotional text deleted by mod)

    The thing is, the other players, even delivering a result below ours, have 300x more payers than ours... (mode edit) That's why I decided to join the discussion. The Marketing of the other players is much stronger. Buyers are opting for those with a larger media image. And that is making all the difference.,

    I see that the customer does not define his purchase only in the final stage, whether it is good or bad, whether it delivers results or not. I believe he goes through the funnel and chooses to choose the product that convinced him the most (obviously). I'm here on this forum looking for knowledge to add to my business.

    And I assure you, you are helping a lot! Hugs from Brazil!
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  • Profile picture of the author art72
    If given the option - I would prefer doing the marketing and if it is not delivered digitally or requires a "closer" or salesman/woman - I'd rather not be the latter, personally. Not my greatest superpower for sure.

    I think the marketing and communications needed to align buyers could be my future superpower (lead generation, automated sales flows, and email follow-ups, etc...) - but to the person closing the sales by phone, in person, or having to "get the contract signed" - I did that bidding remodeling jobs and renovations... Never liked the vibes of having to ask for the "Down Check" or get them to commit.

    With the written word... I think I could be dangerous with the right philosophy, formulas, and offerings!
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    • Originally Posted by art72 View Post

      If given the option - I would prefer doing the marketing and if it is not delivered digitally or requires a "closer" or salesman/woman - I'd rather not be the latter, personally. Not my greatest superpower for sure.

      I think the marketing and communications needed to align buyers could be my future superpower (lead generation, automated sales flows, and email follow-ups, etc...) - but to the person closing the sales by phone, in person, or having to "get the contract signed" - I did that bidding remodeling jobs and renovations... Never liked the vibes of having to ask for the "Down Check" or get them to commit.

      With the written word... I think I could be dangerous with the right philosophy, formulas, and offerings!
      I've met dozens of top flight copywriters. Although they each understood the psychology of selling (usually far better than most salespeople), they hated the actual in person selling.

      But you can make a fine living just doing the marketing. And you can sell something without personal selling.

      Something that should be acknowledged is this...

      Really effective selling is counter intuitive. It goes against most people's cultures, social interactions, familial beliefs.

      Asking people for money in person is distasteful for the vast majority of people. And the fear of being personally rejected keeps most people out of selling.

      When you write a sales letter, and the prospect doesn't respond, there is no personal feeling of rejection. But in person. It's visceral and painful to almost anyone.

      Nobody wants to break rapport. It's why it's very unusual for a sales prospect to just say "No, Thank you". They just don't want to break rapport. So they rationalize a story that takes the responsibility away from them. That's why prospects make up stories and lie.

      They don't want to reject you personally, because it makes them feel bad. Just like it makes a salesperson feel bad when they don't buy.

      But in marketing? All that is missing.

      And...the big money is in marketing, not selling.
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  • Profile picture of the author WF- Enzo
    Administrator
    Check this thread out as well - https://www.warriorforum.com/main-in...s-easier.html\



    Originally Posted by funnelmania View Post

    Fellows,

    I started my lawn care business which made me keenly aware of the importance of marketing & sales. And since my time is somewhat limited, I wanted to ask you guys which skill is more important for an entrepreneur, and which should they work to develop first?

    I've got limited time, so I'd like to center my learning aroudn the skill with the biggest impact first. So which is more important for your own business?
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  • Profile picture of the author Rory Singh
    You could have the best product or service out there. But without good marketing, all of that is meaningless.

    There are tons of people out there with great stuff to sell, but most never learn the marketing part to actually put their offer in front of the right people and in front of 'enough' of them.

    Lastly...

    If your marketing is done right, most people will be pre-sold.
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  • Profile picture of the author Liam Jones
    In my opinion, sales is a critical skill that entrepreneurs should possess, as they need to sell their ideas to potential investors and partners at the beginning and to sell their products to prospective customers. However, some essential marketing skills will help any entrepreneur, especially those looking for a more sustainable long-term focus around their business.
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  • Profile picture of the author spartan14
    Well to make some sales you need to know marketing .So its logical what its more important
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    • Originally Posted by spartan14 View Post

      Well to make some sales you need to know marketing .So its logical what its more important
      I don't know if you can make sales online without marketing. But people make sales every day without any idea of what marketing even means.
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      "Those who know that they are profound strive for clarity. Those who would like to seem profound to the crowd strive for obscurity" Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • Profile picture of the author writeaway
    If online: marketing

    If talking to someone one on one: selling

    Get leads through marketing

    Close those leads through selling
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by writeaway View Post

      If online: marketing

      If talking to someone one on one: selling

      Get leads through marketing

      Close those leads through selling
      This is the general answer given.... Talking, in person = Selling. But transfer that to the internet, someone reading what you wrote isnt Selling? its marketing? even when they press the buy now button?

      How exactly is the dynamic of being in person change anything? In person, I am going to do all of the same things... maybe list some benefits, point out some features maybe do a demonstration... ALL of the things I can or would do online right? then what? Online there is a CTA, and in person there is what I call the ASK.

      I have read for YEARS the art of selling - not just that book specifically... but many books, the psychology of, and so on and so forth... the HARDEST aspect of "Selling" is the ASK, and all the internet has done, well it has done a few things, but for the most part what the internet has done is removed the awkwardness of asking for money and replaced it with a buy now button.

      If you are REALLY into marketing and selling, you will know what CRO ( Conversion Rate Optimization ) is. Kinda the internet equivalent of "Selling"; How to increase the number of sales.

      I don't think I have seen a book yet on the subject that would flat out call CRO modern day Selling... I myself that offers CRO services, think I have learned MORE about selling - the actual mechanics - the psychology - the motivators of who, what, where, why, when and how a sale happens over the rest of my lifetime reading sales books and materials.

      Granted I have a BA in electronic Engineering and my brain is wired to understand an equation break down, over concepts and such.

      When things like A/B testing become a norm in everything you do.. who in sales A/B tests? no one does... How much money was spent picking the color and shape of the PayPal button... It was millions - and THAT is CRO... that is the study of how to close a deal - and in the world we live in, that would be considered "Marketing" BUT when you click that button, or you make that ASK.. for me.. thats when a pitch becomes a sale.
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      • Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post


        How exactly is the dynamic of being in person change anything? In person, I am going to do all of the same things... maybe list some benefits, point out some features maybe do a demonstration... ALL of the things I can or would do online right? then what? Online there is a CTA, and in person there is what I call the ASK.
        It's dramatically different.

        With a sales letter, you are planning out everything you are going to say. You are giving a presentation. You are anticipating buying objections, and attempting to answer them in print. All the communication is one way. that's Marketing.

        In selling, you are talking with a live person. They are responding, asking questions, giving objections, and telling you about themselves as an individual. You are fitting what you say to them, based on what they say to you.

        The communication is two way. That's selling.

        I'm creating a webinar to sell something. I plan what I am going to say, how it's going to look. I plan the graphics, the order, the anticipated objections, the timing, my expressions, when to show it, how long it will be.

        It will be a sales presentation, to make sales. But it will be 100% marketing, because I'm not in front of a live person, or exchanging information with them. It's all one direction. That's marketing.

        When I used to be selling in people's homes, I had to plan what I was going to say in a presentation, anticipate questions, memorize my answers, create the order of the presentation, and gift I was going to give, create the offer, create a printed flip book to aid in their understanding (this was a while ago), know what I was going to say to prospect, plan the prospecting, know how to fill out the forms if they bought, and more.

        This was all marketing, although i didn't think of it then, because I had no idea what marketing was.

        But everything I did when talking to a prospect, from 'Hello" to "Goodbye" was selling. It was a two way exchange. And that two way exchange was what made it selling.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
          Some interesting points as usual Claude ... However I disagree that a Sales Letter is Marketing. (For example, why is it called a "Sales Letter" and not a "Marketing Letter"?) Also the dictionary defines the term "selling" as: [1] "To give or hand over something in exchange for money." [2] "To persuade someone the merits of something."

          Thoughts?
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          • Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

            Some interesting points as usual Claude ... However I disagree that a Sales Letter is Marketing. (For example, why is it called a "Sales Letter" and not a "Marketing Letter"?) Also the dictionary defines the term "selling" as: [1] "To give or hand over something in exchange for money." [2] "To persuade someone the merits of something."

            Thoughts?
            Yup. And marketing is defined as "The action or business of promoting and selling products or services, including market research and advertising."


            The dictionary wasn't written by marketers or salespeople. So their definition is going to not include the common usage in these two professions.

            It's called a Sales Letter because someone can buy from a sales letter. A sale could be made. But it isn't called a Selling letter, because you are not selling. Selling is a personal process that cannot occur in a sales letter. The sales letter is doing the work, and writing a sales letter is a part of marketing. Mailing the sales letter is part of marketing.

            As I have said before, you can make sales purely with marketing. Sales letters, catalogs, websites can all generate sales. But nobody is doing the selling. They are doing the marketing. And the marketing is creating the sale.

            And if there is a two way communication (which is selling), you can sell by text, e-mail, or (I suppose) leaving repeated voice mails, as long as the communication is two way.

            Sending a sales letter isn't selling, for the same reason posting a billboard isn't selling. There is no two way communication.
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          • Profile picture of the author savidge4
            Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

            Some interesting points as usual Claude ... However I disagree that a Sales Letter is Marketing. (For example, why is it called a "Sales Letter" and not a "Marketing Letter"?) Also the dictionary defines the term "selling" as: [1] "To give or hand over something in exchange for money." [2] "To persuade someone the merits of something."

            Thoughts?
            A sales letter directly asked for money... a marketing piece was used to drive traffic
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            • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
              Claude: Copywriter John E. Kennedy ("Reason Why Advertising") once said: "Advertising is salesmanship in print." That sounds reasonable to me.

              I appreciate that you're a "Traditional Salesman" ... However, again, I think you're wrong in thinking that "Selling" only means in Person/two-way communication.

              Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

              A sales letter directly asked for money... a marketing piece was used to drive traffic
              That makes sense to me savidge4. Thanks : )
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        • Profile picture of the author savidge4
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          It's dramatically different.

          With a sales letter, you are planning out everything you are going to say. You are giving a presentation. You are anticipating buying objections, and attempting to answer them in print. All the communication is one way. that's Marketing.

          In selling, you are talking with a live person. They are responding, asking questions, giving objections, and telling you about themselves as an individual. You are fitting what you say to them, based on what they say to you.

          The communication is two way. That's selling.

          I'm creating a webinar to sell something. I plan what I am going to say, how it's going to look. I plan the graphics, the order, the anticipated objections, the timing, my expressions, when to show it, how long it will be.

          It will be a sales presentation, to make sales. But it will be 100% marketing, because I'm not in front of a live person, or exchanging information with them. It's all one direction. That's marketing.

          When I used to be selling in people's homes, I had to plan what I was going to say in a presentation, anticipate questions, memorize my answers, create the order of the presentation, and gift I was going to give, create the offer, create a printed flip book to aid in their understanding (this was a while ago), know what I was going to say to prospect, plan the prospecting, know how to fill out the forms if they bought, and more.

          This was all marketing, although i didn't think of it then, because I had no idea what marketing was.

          But everything I did when talking to a prospect, from 'Hello" to "Goodbye" was selling. It was a two way exchange. And that two way exchange was what made it selling.
          Im obviously not discussing this to change your mind, because I know I wont... But I dont see it being dramatically different in the least...i see it to about the point of one in the same.

          So basically what you are saying is, anytime it is a "Tool" it is marketing... and anytime you are conversing one on one it becomes selling... So by virtue of communicating an e-mail exchange becomes selling?

          And why I say its not so different... When you or I or whoever go out and sell...we know what we are going to say... we generally know what the objections will be, we know how to answer them. Where you and I parallel, in the process of "Learning" is we take notes, we make shifts we learn from our happy mishaps...we KNOW exactly when a pitch went south... and we adjust.

          Online marketing is the exact same thing... a little more scientific in nature... its literally testing...not that you and I both dont actually test things in face to face transactions - or at least I know I do...

          The fact for ME that makes anything but in person "Selling" and in person "Selling" exactly the same is all of the prep and understanding that goes into meeting someone in person.

          So a bit of a scenario... I have 5 items I am going to hand you, and you have to go out on a street corner and sell it... The proverbial Pen, A cork Screw, A car, A Pairing knife, and a Vacuum. The actual items dont really matter... but the reality is when picking up the first item to sell, you and I both are probably going to to go to the item we know best.

          I believe you would choose the Pairing Knife, and I would choose the Pen. I generally speaking do not give money to those that pander... I will directly buy food, or put gas in a tank or what ever. When I REALLY see the need, i will go a step further and teach someone how to FISH... I generally will use Pens and or Pencils from the Dollar store, and teach the person how to stand on the corner and sell Pens or Pencils that they buy 6 to 10 for $1, and sell them for $1.00 each.

          In a densely populated downtown section of many cities across our country... Selling pencils and pens for $1.00 is like taking candy from a baby. The moment some jerk comes along and says something to the effect of "Get a Job" you can quickly respond, this is my job... I could be sitting in that corner over there with a sign that says need money for food. Im not pandering, I am trying to earn my way to eating dinner tonight.

          How do I know that works? I have done, it, I have tested it, I have taken an objection and found a working response. What does the response do? It changes the perspective of the potential client... what does marketing do? It alters perspective on a product or service - into what we hope to create a positive outcome.

          Marketing.. is the act of Manipulation... Setting someone perspective to seeing a product or a service provider in a positive light... breaking the points of friction that are holding the buyer from buying. Sitting on a corner and saying Pens for a $1.00 Pens for a $1.00 Pens for $1.00 is selling - WAITING for that one person, that is in need of a Pen, right then and there.

          Change up the corner and stand in front of a Bank.... Pens for $1.00 Dont use the pens inside the bank, there is a Pandemic ( I saw someone using this not to long ago... she was crushing it ) as they were wiping them off with sanitary wipes( probably the same one all day haha ). A clear shift in perception - and THAT is marketing with the result of the transaction of selling a pen.

          For me... the uh discovery? of this has changed a lot of things... Its not that I ever Hated Selling... I never wined about it or anything... but I preferred everything else but if that makes sense. Even the NO part didnt bother me - I guess I have done it enough to just not worry about it...it became more of a whoops, something went wrong, what can I change?

          But it terms of a mind shift... stop selling, there is nothing to say no to. I am wicked way more relaxed... No special game face or pep talk, I dont have to unwind at the end of the day.. its been life changing - FOR ME.

          The relaxed part... I have had feedback specifically how relaxed I was during a presentation, that turned into sale. Im no longer "Aggressive" ( a strong word - not in sales mode ) Tonality has changed, body posture, almost like I could care less if i close the deal...

          Im building a relationship...im putting in the time... and I KNOW... sooner or later the conversion will happen. THAT... that right there was the shift... from me selling, to the client raising their hand and saying im ready. So I just dont sell anymore... i just do marketing.
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          • Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

            Im obviously not discussing this to change your mind, because I know I wont... But I dont see it being dramatically different in the least...i see it to about the point of one in the same.

            So basically what you are saying is, anytime it is a "Tool" it is marketing... and anytime you are conversing one on one it becomes selling... So by virtue of communicating an e-mail exchange becomes selling?
            Yes. You understand what I mean. An e-mail exchange, texting back and forth, even writing letters back and forth is selling. It doesn't have to be in face to face. To me, it's the two way communication that makes it selling as opposed to marketing.

            My Friend...

            I've read the dictionary definitions of Selling and Marketing. How else would we agree on a definition? So I see that the definition of selling and the definition of marketing overlap.

            For some people, they may seem identical.

            You and I are both experienced and intelligent salespeople. We also have extensive knowledge of marketing. And yet we disagree.

            I think the reason we disagree is that we have different experiences.
            In my mind, I can clearly see the difference. And that difference is slightly different from your perception.

            I think (based on what you have posted) that you see the closing as the selling. I see the entire process (if done as an exchange of communication) as selling.

            For example; Prospecting is a part of selling if you are communicating back and forth with a prospect. To me, it's marketing if it's a sales letter asking for a call. Mostly because the sales letter is one step away from personal communication (one on one, even if it's in writing)

            One thought I had was that, if you take a college course in marketing, you may learn something about branding, publicity, advertising, surveys, consumer behavior, and retailing.

            But selling would probably not even be a chapter in the text book.

            One interesting thing. I'm in the middle if viewing Perry Belcher's Secret Selling System.. One of the most in depth and insightful courses I've ever had the privilege to enjoy.

            It's pure marketing. Everything is marketing. And as I have said before, my greatest gains in selling came after I studied marketing for a few years. Marketing principles applied to selling.

            And in a book I'm currently writing, everything in it is how I applied marketing principles (sometimes unknowingly) that generated my bigger wins.

            Not a sales technique in the book. Pure marketing strategy, as I applied it at different points in my life.

            By the way, a gray area (to me) is speaking to sell from the platform. I did it well for several years. But is it selling or marketing?

            It's almost entirely one way communication, me talking to them. To me, it's much more like marketing. Almost the same as a sales video. The difference is that, at the end of the speech, they run to the back of the room, buying my stuff, asking questions, giving me their card number.

            Of course, in the talk, I ask questions, they raise their hand. I try to engage them as much as possible. That makes it more like selling. But there is very little in the way of one to one communication. And the entire process would fail miserably, if very second wasn't designed purely by marketing.

            Maybe there isn't a real answer to the difference between marketing and selling. If they buy, does it matter that much?
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            • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
              Just out of curiosity Claude ― you're a smart Guy ― how would you define the term "Selling"? (Maybe a kind of "updated/adapted version" than that of the dictionary.)
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              • Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

                Just out of curiosity Claude ― you're a smart Guy ― how would you define the term "Selling"? (Maybe a kind of "updated/adapted version" than that of the dictionary.)
                A conversation with an agenda.
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                • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  A conversation with an agenda.
                  Lol. Okay ... Sorry, I was just interested. (Maybe other People would appreciate your perspective as well?)
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                  • Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

                    Lol. Okay ... Sorry, I was just interested. (Maybe other People would appreciate your perspective as well?)
                    Jonathan. I suspect you feel like I was being abrupt with you. I promise, I wasn't.

                    I was flattered that you asked me.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
                      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                      Jonathan. I suspect you feel like I was being abrupt with you. I promise, I wasn't.

                      I was flattered that you asked me.
                      Oh OK: Thanks.
                      : )

                      [Added=] So essentially a "conversation" (meaning two-way communication) that has an "agenda" [= "A list, plan, outline, or the like, of things to be done."]
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                      • Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

                        Oh OK: Thanks.
                        : )

                        [Added=] So essentially a "conversation" (meaning two-way communication) that has an "agenda" [= "A list, plan, outline, or the like, of things to be done."]
                        The agenda in this case would mean "Plan". Any conversation with a purpose...an end in mind.. It could be anything. To me, that's still selling. But in normal usage, the agenda/purpose would be the transfer of money.

                        After I posted that, I thought of this.

                        To me, the bones of selling is a conversation with an agenda.

                        But that doesn't describe what is happening, the process.

                        I've head selling described as "A transfer of belief", or "A transfer of certainty". Both are accurate, I think.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
                          Cool: Thanks Claude : ) It's nice to hear from an established Salesman. I don't know everything about "Selling" and "Marketing" ... However as an Entrepreneur I do find it interesting.

                          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                          I've head selling described as "A transfer of belief", or "A transfer of certainty". Both are accurate, I think.
                          So maybe a person could be "Selling" a concept or an idea? Is that what you mean?
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                          • Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

                            Cool: Thanks Claude : ) It's nice to hear from an established Salesman. I don't know everything about "Selling" and "Marketing" ... However as an Entrepreneur I do find it interesting.



                            So maybe a person could be "Selling" a concept or an idea? Is that what you mean?
                            Sure. Any time you are trying to convey an idea, and the purpose is to get the other person to agree with you, that's selling.
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            • Profile picture of the author savidge4
              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

              I've read the dictionary definitions of Selling and Marketing. How else would we agree on a definition? So I see that the definition of selling and the definition of marketing overlap.
              Not to be a piss ant here... You and I both coming from the same generation will more than likely agree on the definition of "Gender" - BUT the world we live in today... that has changed.

              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

              I think the reason we disagree is that we have different experiences.
              In my mind, I can clearly see the difference. And that difference is slightly different from your perception.

              I think (based on what you have posted) that you see the closing as the selling. I see the entire process (if done as an exchange of communication) as selling.
              Because I deal with multiple process, I suspect more than you... particularly online process' where there is no communication, its very this is what I have for sale, and Yes ill take that thank you.

              BUT I also very much like you deal with people one on one. For me... the process is very much the same meaning writing copy to sell online vs having a script in my mind when speaking in person.

              Speaking for myself... as much as I am "talking" to someone... I am directing the conversation. I for the most part know if I say this... they will ask that.... if they ask that then I respond with this,and continue here.

              I would say, that my success with online conversion is actually understanding objections, and where in conversation they might appear. I write in what might be called a conversational style. In my copywriting, I will inject the question that prompts the objection as if in a one on one conversation... As much in person, it has the same effect in writing, it identifies and releases the objection, and you move forward.

              A long while back I shared on the Offline forum about an SEO proposal I made ( to a Lawyer firm ) The absolute worst proposal I have ever given.... because every time I prompted an objection... crickets - not a word, I was straight up a fish out of water.

              THIS is where the injection of objections in my copywriting came from. From experience you learn.

              That experience again for ME created a shift in perception... what I do online, is exactly the same as offline, with the separation of added actors/actress' in the presentation. The prospect in my mind is simply playing the part that I have written for them.

              With my little Google Maps spiel... I have delivered the same spiel time and gain 10 times a day 5 days a week for 2 years now? maybe 3 - a mind numbing amount of times. Its no longer a conversation... Its ground hogs day.

              And THIS is where I suggest the process is exactly the same

              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

              By the way, a gray area (to me) is speaking to sell from the platform. I did it well for several years. But is it selling or marketing?
              Im sure you know already, my take on this would be everything at the podium, up and until the proverbial if you are interested in the course or the book meet me at the back table AKA the ASK

              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

              Maybe there isn't a real answer to the difference between marketing and selling. If they buy, does it matter that much?
              Tomatoe Tomatoe Potato Potato ( that one doesn't translate well in written form now does it? LOL )

              I would say practically no, but technically yes... Ive read it, you have read it.. sales copy that is little marketing and all sales...you and I both know it wont convert... we know WHY it wont convert PUSH PUSH PUSH right?

              Marketing is nuanced... its a dance. Selling... selling is just super straight forward "that will be $997.00 please". Anything less than an amount of conviction loses the sale right? <sheepishly> "that will be $997.00... ok I'll do it for $300.00?" and the sale is lost

              Dating is marketing... The ASK... "Will you marry me?" THATS selling.

              Or to be more uh up with the times... A tinder listing... marketing.. the date.. still marketing - reducing the friction.. then its right to "Lets Smash" the SALE

              agreeing with you, at this point neither is right or wrong, whatever works.
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              • Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                Marketing is nuanced... its a dance. Selling... selling is just super straight forward "that will be $997.00 please". Anything less than an amount of conviction loses the sale right? <sheepishly> "that will be $997.00... ok I'll do it for $300.00?" and the sale is lost
                Let's change the subject from "What is the difference?"
                Before I read this post, I was truly coming to this thread to tell you that I had reconsidered what I have been saying. That marketing (in present usage) is more all-encompassing than selling, and you may be more correct in saying that most of the selling process could be called marketing, up until you ask them to buy.

                And then i read "Marketing is nuanced... it's a dance. Selling... selling is just super straight forward "that will be $997.00 please""

                That's not selling, that's the last part of selling.

                It's like saying that the winning touchdown in Football is really football, and everything that comes before that is something other than football.

                Selling (if you are competent in selling) involves asking questions, getting answers, and molding your presentation around the answers they gave. It's completely interactive.

                The actual ask for money, the close is just a detail. The last word of a book. The last note of a song.

                Selling isn't a performance delivered to one person, it's an interview.

                You said "For me... the process is very much the same meaning writing copy to sell online vs having a script in my mind when speaking in person."

                Having the script in mind is marketing. Memorizing answers to objections is marketing.

                In fact, I will go as far as saying that, when you sell something in person, if you just deliver a pitch, with no interaction, and then ask them to buy...I could agree that this is indistinguishable from marketing. And I guess some people sell like that.

                But not how I sell or teach.

                The part of the actual selling process that is marketing is writing a script, memorizing it...and even delivering it. But not if most of the time you are asking questions, letting the prospect talk, and then fitting what you say to what they said.

                I can't imagine that being anything else but high level selling.

                You said "Speaking for myself... as much as I am "talking" to someone... I am directing the conversation. I for the most part know if I say this... they will ask that.... if they ask that then I respond with this, and continue here."

                That's part of it. Knowing the best answer to any question. Understanding ahead of time the likely things they will say. I do that as well. And that sounds a lot like marketing.

                But when I'm selling, the vast majority of the time, I'm asking questions...and listening to their answers. Looking for signs of agreement or disagreement. Looking at body language, tone of voice, even their rate of breathing.


                I think, after all of this, I have discovered the difference in what you are saying and what I am saying.

                We both know what marketing is. I just sell differently than you do. And except for what I do before I meet the person, and some steps in qualifying, I'm selling. And it's distinguishable from marketing.

                You tend to market all the way through, and the add a selling technique...a close at the end.

                I think we just sell differently. I base that on your description of what you do.

                You really should get Perry Belcher's Secret Selling System. You can buy downloads from multiple sources for about $50. Three days of pure marketing. Even an experienced marketer will get a lot out of it.

                Added later; When I was selling in people 's homes, what I taught my reps was a memorized series of statements, several questions, and memorized answers to probable answers. Although I think of that as selling, I can see that all of the technique is a result of marketing...writing it out, memorizing itr, practicing it...even delivering it. Marketing.

                But in the last 20 years or so, and more when I was selling on my own, t shifted away from these memorized statements, and more to the interplay between my prospect and myself. A conversation.

                This is a far more complex way to sell. And it's hard to teach. It's far easier to teach a script. And for most salespeople, a script will save them from their own mistakes.

                Now, maybe those scripts are still in there, somewhere, in my unconscious, allowing me to say the right thing, ask the right question. But in my conscious mind, what I do is indistinguishable from a conversation.

                In my store, the person coming in for a $3 belt, and leaving with a $800 vacuum cleaner....thinks it was their idea, and I was just there to put it together for them. Art.

                Selling is art. Marketing is science. And I believe that underneath all my art....is a bedrock of science.

                I think my tank is empty now.
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                • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  Let's change the subject from "What is the difference?"
                  Before I read this post, I was truly coming to this thread to tell you that I had reconsidered what I have been saying. That marketing (in present usage) is more all-encompassing than selling, and you may be more correct in saying that most of the selling process could be called marketing, up until you ask them to buy.

                  And then i read "Marketing is nuanced... it's a dance. Selling... selling is just super straight forward "that will be $997.00 please""

                  That's not selling, that's the last part of selling.
                  And with that... I over sold... I went from countering objections to applying ideas, that you wouldn't couldn't find logical - I lost the "Sale"

                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  Selling (if you are competent in selling) involves asking questions, getting answers, and molding your presentation around the answers they gave. It's completely interactive.
                  i agree... because you and I both know where we lost the sale when we do... it was right here when I said "X" it was over... We crossed a line.. and maybe not the first time, but the second or 3rd time in doing this.. X is out of the script. Again, i perceive the discussion being guided... If I lose control of the direction of the conversation <Look Squirrel> its over.. pack it up and go home. Its interactive to the potential buyer.. but to a competent seller.. its a path you are leading the prospect down with breadcrumbs ( or at least for me )

                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  The actual ask for money, the close is just a detail. The last word of a book. The last note of a song.
                  If there is a point in a presentation that you can screw things up - more so for those that have an issue with money or self esteem... its the ASK.

                  So I sell CRO as a service... the absolute hardest thing I have ever sold. When the presentation starts with what it is you are selling...its an up hill battle... its orders of magnitudes worse than SEO.

                  I specifically cold call this... I haven't found another way to do it...simply because there is not enough traction in people actually looking for this service specifically, that meet all of my requirements to fulfill the service. And because MY needs, MY perfect fit is so refined, my prospecting is me identifying potential parties based on a series of clues that I can scout in advance.

                  I cant get on the phone and start in with questions to qualify being levels of traffic, and volume, and sales... I have to start a path of conversation that develops trust, so I can build to get to those points in the conversation - its a female dog of a sale. A whole lot of trial and error has basically landed me a script.. what to ask, and when to ask, along with what not to ask.

                  If we fall back somehow, we have to have the wherewithal to reset, we need to get back on track... get on script... get back into the pattern of "conversation" that we know to be effective

                  So I get to the ASK, The price tag on this is not cheap... its 90 days of my service - and its all of 90 days changing and formatting and testing testing testing. My sales were very much hit and miss... The ASK was strong... but the VALUE just wasn't there ( to this day its not there ) or should I say the belief in the value wasnt there. on a whim one day I offered to place the ASK into escrow... we will do this and this and that in X number of days, if not you get your money back - I do the same thing ( guarantee ) with my web builds, minus the escrow - thats where the idea came from.

                  Anyways... THAT for me is selling... what I do with web design or any of my other services or products... all marketing... I have to SELL beyond the hurdle that all of my marketing tactics leave.

                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  selling isn't a performance delivered to one person, it's an interview.
                  I see it more as a tract discussion at best, we only ask questions we know the answer to. I can only imagine when you are "Selling" a vacuum in your store you might ask "Do you have Pets?" its the segway to adding value with the wonderful pet attachment thingy... Yes we ask questions, but the questions are guiding the discussion to the end goal. The questions are what we use to add value to the proposition.

                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  You said "For me... the process is very much the same meaning writing copy to sell online vs having a script in my mind when speaking in person."

                  Having the script in mind is marketing. Memorizing answers to objections is marketing.

                  In fact, I will go as far as saying that, when you sell something in person, if you just deliver a pitch, with no interaction, and then ask them to buy...I could agree that this is indistinguishable from marketing. And I guess some people sell like that.

                  But not how I sell or teach.

                  The part of the actual selling process that is marketing is writing a script, memorizing it...and even delivering it. But not if most of the time you are asking questions, letting the prospect talk, and then fitting what you say to what they said.

                  I can't imagine that being anything else but high level selling.
                  Again... the questions as I see it.. #1 are guided... I ask the same questions over and over and over - I more than generally get a very binary response.. Yes I have... or nope don't do that #2 The questions lead to the specific side paths if you will, that add value - Value added by definition is Marketing I might add. #3 In a far outside of logic manor, you are bringing the prospect to the point that it is their idea to buy - the tipping point as it were.

                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  But when I'm selling, the vast majority of the time, I'm asking questions...and listening to their answers. Looking for signs of agreement or disagreement. Looking at body language, tone of voice, even their rate of breathing.
                  And in THIS is the primary why I remain local and sell in person... unlike any other form of getting a sale - the VISUAL cues that can be picked up are priceless.


                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  I think, after all of this, I have discovered the difference in what you are saying and what I am saying.

                  We both know what marketing is. I just sell differently than you do. And except for what I do before I meet the person, and some steps in qualifying, I'm selling. And it's distinguishable from marketing.

                  You tend to market all the way through, and the add a selling technique...a close at the end.

                  I think we just sell differently. I base that on your description of what you do.
                  The BIGGEST difference between you and I and there are a few... But the prospecting.. and with the exception of CRO... Who and what is Ideal.

                  I openly state it often... I target the untargeted. Im not look for a history of buying. I just know you are a brick and mortar, you dont have a google maps listing, and I know that regardless of a whole lot of factors, the person inside that owns that store wants more traffic.. and Im the guy thats going to give it to them.

                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  You really should get Perry Belcher's Secret Selling System. You can buy downloads from multiple sources for about $50. Three days of pure marketing. Even an experienced marketer will get a lot out of it.

                  Ordered... but I should have made the deal if I do the course, you have to read Jab Jab Jab Right Hook

                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  But in the last 20 years or so, and more when I was selling on my own, t shifted away from these memorized statements, and more to the interplay between my prospect and myself. A conversation.

                  This is a far more complex way to sell. And it's hard to teach. It's far easier to teach a script. And for most salespeople, a script will save them from their own mistakes.

                  Now, maybe those scripts are still in there, somewhere, in my unconscious, allowing me to say the right thing, ask the right question. But in my conscious mind, what I do is indistinguishable from a conversation.
                  I think its internalized... Like you say about speaking you have to know the subject up one side down the other... You repeat a sale over and over and over... its about brainless... I know you try not to, but i spend more time developing a relationship out of the deal. Even in my online endeavors... I try to position myself into not a belt here and there, and a new unit every 7 years... but Monthly, and over time not just one service but another and another and another

                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  In my store, the person coming in for a $3 belt, and leaving with a $800 vacuum cleaner....thinks it was their idea, and I was just there to put it together for them. Art.
                  Missed this part before writing what I did above about making it their idea! LOL


                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  Selling is art. Marketing is science. And I believe that underneath all my art....is a bedrock of science.
                  Would make a good book title!
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                  • Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                    I see it more as a tract discussion at best, we only ask questions we know the answer to. I can only imagine when you are "Selling" a vacuum in your store you might ask "Do you have Pets?" its the segway to adding value with the wonderful pet attachment thingy... Yes we ask questions, but the questions are guiding the discussion to the end goal. The questions are what we use to add value to the proposition.



                    Again... the questions as I see it.. #1 are guided... I ask the same questions over and over and over - I more than generally get a very binary response.. Yes I have... or nope don't do that #2 The questions lead to the specific side paths if you will, that add value - Value added by definition is Marketing I might add. #3 In a far outside of logic manor, you are bringing the prospect to the point that it is their idea to buy - the tipping point as it were.

                    I see it now. For me, I don't know the answers to half the questions I ask. Maybe the first half or more of the conversation is me asking open ended questions This is in any selling I do one on one. Even when selling high end local online marketing services (which I no longer do)


                    The binary questions are just so I know what features to emphasize. But in the beginning? it really is just me asking discovery questions, so I can determine if I want to proceed...if they will be a fit.

                    I do it in person. You do it with marketing.

                    Added later; Often, the questions I ask are designed to prompt them to tell me a reason that they should buy. I leave openings in the conversation that allow them to naturally and easily bring up the subject.

                    I leave an opening, and if they are ready...they fall right in.

                    Not something I can teach,

                    But here is an analogy.



                    The prospect and I are in a large room. The floor has a very slight grade, not perfectly level. Maybe a degree or two off. The floor slants to the middle of the room, where there is a hole the size of a golf ball.

                    And I drop a golf ball on the floor. The golf ball starts at the doorway.

                    I kick the ball in seemingly random directions. The prospect kicks the ball too.

                    To the uninitiated, it looks like we are both randomly rolling a ball all over the room. It seems like that to the prospect as well. It even looks like a game we both enjoy.

                    But the ball slowly...eventually, starts rolling closer and closer to the center of the room...because the floor is unperceptively slanted, lower in the middle of the room...by an inch.

                    And no matter what it looks like. No matter how much I'm talking about the weather...my eye never goes off the ball. I never stop studying the direction and speed.....whether the ball is speeding up, slowing down.

                    And usually, but not always, the ball eventually drops in the hole. And the prospect always thinks it's his idea. He won.

                    The prospects intention is the ball.

                    I am the slant in the floor. Subtle, unnoticeable. But with enough time, and conversation, the ball goes in.

                    The prospect buys.

                    If I see that the ball is not slowly rolling toward the center of the room. I pick up the ball, shake the hand of the prospect, and walk away.

                    Like an old vinyl record. You can't see the needle get closer to the center of the disc. But it is moving. With every note, it gets closer to the center. And if the record skips, I just lift the needle.

                    That's what I'm doing when selling.

                    But when I'm teaching a salesperson, I have to be more overt. My direction has to be seen by them, or they have no idea what I'm doing.

                    For years, I would have vacuum cleaner salespeople (my in home days) want to go with me for a day. See what I did, that got me so many sales.

                    Because I was actually earning a living, I would do what I always do, when working on my own. And they would watch silently.

                    And inevitably, after the sale, they would say something like "You were lucky they were going to buy anyway". What I had done was invisible to them.

                    One guy I took with me said "I was hoping to see you close, but they couple bought without you having to close at all". The truth is, I was closing for over an hour. It was just invisible to him.

                    At worst, they would say something when I was selling, that would derail the conversation. I stopped letting these guys go with me for that reason.

                    Literally every prospect other than a referral from a buyer, had decided before I arrived that they were not going to buy, no matter what. Most of them told me as much when I arrived. I believe, out of 7,200 sales I made in homes, I actually had two that told me they were interested, when I first arrived. None of these people were what anyone here would consider a "Lead".
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              • Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                BUT I also very much like you deal with people one on one. For me... the process is very much the same meaning writing copy to sell online vs having a script in my mind when speaking in person.

                Speaking for myself... as much as I am "talking" to someone... I am directing the conversation. I for the most part know if I say this... they will ask that.... if they ask that then I respond with this,and continue here.
                .
                First, thank you for your prior answer to me. I am going to reply but a little busy now.

                But to start with I wanted to address this: I think this is a huge difference between your approach and mine. I see asking questions as the KEY to directing the conversation... and the key to winning the sale. If you ask the right questions, you don't even get many objections at all. Objections are the sign that you're trying to close too soon.

                So I don't sell the way I write copy. Absolutely not. And I've been a direct response copywriter for 10+ years, helped people sell millions worth of goods.

                Because fundamentally you never know what a specific person wants. You may THINK you do... for example you say everyone wants more customers. That's not true... if you actually ask people, you'll discover that quite a few don't, because they have bigger problems. One guy doesn't have the systems to take on more business, another has a logistics issue and he runs out of inventory, can't supply for more customers, another doesn't want to work more and is satisfied with where he's at and so on. The options are endless. They could have other problems other than needing more customers.

                And unless you can show them that working with you will be a solution for those other problems they have, they won't work with you.

                And the first thing asking questions helps you is uncover what problems people have. Second of all, by asking the right questions you get them to feel more disatisfied with their current situation and desire the change much more. And by asking the right questions you also get them to convince themselves... gaining the right to ask questions, that is the SUPREME power you can have to direct a sales conversation in my opinion. It's not the talker who is in charge... it's the questioner. Like Gary Halbert's starving crowd in marketing, in sales, that's the right to ask questions in my opinion. If I have that, I can close anyone who is closeable.
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                • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                  Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

                  First, thank you for your prior answer to me. I am going to reply but a little busy now.

                  But to start with I wanted to address this: I think this is a huge difference between your approach and mine. I see asking questions as the KEY to directing the conversation... and the key to winning the sale. If you ask the right questions, you don't even get many objections at all. Objections are the sign that you're trying to close too soon.

                  So I don't sell the way I write copy. Absolutely not. And I've been a direct response copywriter for 10+ years, helped people sell millions worth of goods.

                  Because fundamentally you never know what a specific person wants. You may THINK you do... for example you say everyone wants more customers. That's not true... if you actually ask people, you'll discover that quite a few don't, because they have bigger problems. One guy doesn't have the systems to take on more business, another has a logistics issue and he runs out of inventory, can't supply for more customers, another doesn't want to work more and is satisfied with where he's at and so on. The options are endless. They could have other problems other than needing more customers.

                  And unless you can show them that working with you will be a solution for those other problems they have, they won't work with you.

                  And the first thing asking questions helps you is uncover what problems people have. Second of all, by asking the right questions you get them to feel more disatisfied with their current situation and desire the change much more. And by asking the right questions you also get them to convince themselves... gaining the right to ask questions, that is the SUPREME power you can have to direct a sales conversation in my opinion. It's not the talker who is in charge... it's the questioner. Like Gary Halbert's starving crowd in marketing, in sales, that's the right to ask questions in my opinion. If I have that, I can close anyone who is closeable.
                  You make this sound so 1950 romantic in a way...its a process its discovery its this and that.... I walk into a local brick and mortar business... They want customers to walk in the door - or call and order on the phone or whatever it is... TRAFFIC. I dont have to ask a bunch of questions... l KNOW what they want, Im looking right at Google maps and they are not listed I KNOW what the issues are... its not rocket science

                  Same is true with say my CRO presentation... they need to either increase traffic, OR increase the number conversions for the traffic they have - and 9 times out of 10 they are paying for the traffic. I just have to ask what is their cart abandon percentage - and its game on from that point. Start asking questions like, how much in traffic spend would it be to double your income? What If I said I can double your income, with the traffic you have right now?

                  I provide direct solutions to direct problems, and the problems are universal straight across the board. I don't know how, I don't have time, I tried that and it doesnt work...

                  Let me throw it to you this way.. there is a reason you are converting 1 in 100 and I convert 3 in 10. To put it bluntly one of us is getting right to the point, and the other is asking questions to what the point is. WHO in the mind of the prospect in this scenario has an amount of authority? Which one of us comes across as someone that might actually have the answers - and the ability to solve the clients problems?

                  Lets take a doctor as an example... what do doctors need? more patience right.... If nothing else when I am done speaking to a doctor I drop "Call your patience ON their birthday" "Hi this is Dr. so and so's office and we are just calling to wish you a happy birthday. somewhere above 50% of the time.... guess what happens... the patient says "well since I have you on the phone..." The Doctor doesnt NEED more patience, they NEED to understand and learn how to manage the ones they have - and in turn, that is a gateway to referrals - giving the doctor a fuller calendar utilizing the patience they have, and filling in the empty spots with referrals from happy patience.

                  AND all of this before I do any amount of work for them - GIVE, and in turn you might just RECEIVE.

                  The issue with most salespeople today is they are selling solutions to problems, and dont understand what the problems are... they are putting square pegs in round holes... oh Mr prospect your issue is this? Oh my product fixes that...Oh and this issue too? my product fixes that.

                  I have identified a problem, and created a solution... I target the specific problem, and sell the specific solution. As our relationship grows, they might just share additional problems, and I will offer solutions. BUT to get in the door.. i stick with universals. One size fits all Problem / Solution.

                  The EXACT opposite is the case selling product.. I list stuff on eBay or Amazon, or Etsy or Facebook... anything and everything I sell is a solution, right? But I could care less specifically what the problem is. I prefer buying Nike's because I have a wide bridge... does the person selling them to me have to know that? NOPE they sure dont.

                  This is why I am saying in this thread and I will preface this as in being for ME... I dont sell, I market ( with one exception ) I dont have to "sell", because I understand what the prospects problems are.. I just have to market the solution... and it sells itself. And if you havent figured out by now, I prefer marketing by demonstration of my ability... a free listing.. or Hey Doc.. call your patience and wish them a Happy Birthday. See what happens, i will see you next week.

                  They are sold before I get back. Selling is not hard, if your marketing does all of the hard work for you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Leon Jamesh
    They seem to me to be equally crucial to a company. Without marketing, there are virtually no sales. In today's market, they require each other. That is my opinion.
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  • I will also add one more thing @savidge4

    My cousin is C-level for a billion-dollar software automation company. They sell to big businesses like EY, KPMG etc. using OUTBOUND only. When they go speak with those guys, you think they don't already know what problems they have? Of course they do... but they still ask them. Because until it comes out publically from the customer's mouth, it doesn't mean much. But when you can go to the customer and tell him, "Last time when we spoke, you said X, and Y matter most to you because N reason if I remember correctly?" and they say "yes" they've made a public commitment. Now it's HARDER for them to refuse you. Cialdini - Influence!

    I use a combination of different sales approaches, but the backbone is SPIN Selling. Not sure if you're familiar with it? The research shows that until it comes out of the customer's mouth, it's not true for him, even if, in reality, it really is true. Especially for high-ticket sales.

    That's why my conversion rates are much bigger than if I sold through a web page.
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  • Part 2 of the Dan Kennedy marketing vs selling episode is out: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR...EegQIBBAH&ep=6
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  • Profile picture of the author aduttonater
    One of my businesses are landscaping. I continue marketing by posting ads online. However, I want for the ad to convert well. I make sure that I have a system to follow. The system consists of having before and after photos of my work, and asking for them to submit photos of the work they need done. I quote them over the phone based on the photos. Sometimes I have to meet them in person for an estimate. Either way the photos should have them sold, then psychologically they want to see what I look like. As long as I remain professional and friendly plus confident in my work, it's interview success. When I do the work I make sure I take before and after photos. Once completed, and payment is collected, I usually invest a little bit of the payment back into advertisement by placing more online ads. The process continues. Wash rinse repeat.
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  • Profile picture of the author johndoer
    Focus on getting sales and revenue first, then start scaling up ads. My 2 cents
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  • Profile picture of the author joncoates89
    marketing is knocking on the door, selling is talking to the person who opens the door
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  • Profile picture of the author Satyam Raj
    Marketing is the process in which you show your product or services to your potential users. But sale is the process in which you are actually trying to convince your users to purchase your product or services. Both are different so don't confuse with marketing with selling. Try to learn digital marketing and list your business details online.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mabu Map
    To me,

    It's MARKETING

    Because if we are GOOD at that - SALES will come

    Just that simple
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  • Profile picture of the author Madhusmita bhatt
    Marketing is the process of increasing potential customers' awareness of your company and brand. Sales is the process of converting potential customers into actual customers in order to turn that viewership into a profit.
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  • Profile picture of the author Old Molases
    I think in the started you'll need to have both on your finger tips but as you grow and hire help, then all you would need to do is oversee both operations holistically. I personally think that sales is more important skill that you should acquire, as it is directly tied to your revenue.
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