Brand Building vs Direct Response

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So I see this debate a lot online. Many people are big fans of direct response, but yet, most of the big companies use brand. In fact, for many, brand is their most valuable asset.

Almost every really BIG, sustainable business out there is built on brand.

So why do so many advocate direct response & copywriting?

Most of those business people who built huge organisations like Amazon, Facebook, Apple, Gary Vee and so on knew little to NOTHING about direct response or copywriting...

And yet, if these are so important, wouldn't it make sense that it should be their main area of focus while starting out?

Instead, it seems that in the long run, the brand building approach, despite not being measureable like direct response, leads to mammoth size, huge ass businesses. What these business do is basically conquer markets, one by one. Provide value, dominate the discussion, and so on. And they get traffic that way. Whereas the direct response guys, they just write a couple of sales letters, email sequences, send them out through ads or bought email lists/JVs, make faster sales, but then the business is dead in 1 year.

Brand seems more effective to me? But what do I know... There's so much lack of clarity about what the hell a business owner should focus on to build a big ass company, what the most important factors are, and so on.
#brand #building #direct #response
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  • Profile picture of the author savidge4
    Originally Posted by trent001 View Post

    So I see this debate a lot online. Many people are big fans of direct response, but yet, most of the big companies use brand. In fact, for many, brand is their most valuable asset.

    Almost every really BIG, sustainable business out there is built on brand.

    So why do so many advocate direct response & copywriting?

    Most of those business people who built huge organisations like Amazon, Facebook, Apple, Gary Vee and so on knew little to NOTHING about direct response or copywriting...

    And yet, if these are so important, wouldn't it make sense that it should be their main area of focus while starting out?

    Instead, it seems that in the long run, the brand building approach, despite not being measureable like direct response, leads to mammoth size, huge ass businesses. What these business do is basically conquer markets, one by one. Provide value, dominate the discussion, and so on. And they get traffic that way. Whereas the direct response guys, they just write a couple of sales letters, email sequences, send them out through ads or bought email lists/JVs, make faster sales, but then the business is dead in 1 year.

    Brand seems more effective to me? But what do I know... There's so much lack of clarity about what the hell a business owner should focus on to build a big ass company, what the most important factors are, and so on.
    So maybe we are clear on what each is ( direct response and Branding ) direct response is an action taken now... and Branding is an action taken later.

    Big companies BRAND..for 1 very important reason... they simply do not directly sell the product they are selling. Can you go onto Pepsi's website and buy Pepsi? No you can't, you have to goto a store. THIS right here is the most basic of separation between the 2.

    As digital marketers one could quickly then state that "Oh, if that's the case I don't need to focus on branding". But this is ultimately a mistake.

    so lets play out a scenario...you are running ads on Facebook. If your ad is displayed and not clicked on... is it a direct response ad, or branding? We can then take some well tested data and say that most people will not respond to an ad until seeing it 7 times.

    So the ad displaying the first through the 6th time become BRANDING ( an action taken later ) and the 7th Time would actually be the result of ""Direct Response" BUT I would argue that it was really the branding effort that paved the way for the conversion.

    Think about this for a moment... which is more effective... JUST displaying an AD... OR displaying the ad and then with the use of a pixel, displaying the AD as the end user scrolls arond the internet? The DATA is very clear that the Pixel displayed ads are more effective... and the reason being again going to known data, the need for an end user to see your name, or your ad 7 times before making contact.

    I will make a very bold statement here... there is no such thing as "direct response"

    So what separates what BIG Brands do, and what we as small internet marketers do? WE have to provide the path for a conversion. So WE are BRANDING, with a Direct Response mechanism.

    My $.02
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  • The avalanche says A SHEDLOAD OF SNOW & ICE, HEADIN' REAL FAST IN YOUR DIRECTION!

    Your response is ... RUN!

    Brands create landscapes of possibility where your kneejerk desires can play out real easy.

    Less'n you know what a Zolembo is, why would you evah use one to blitz bugs from your dog's splungepipe?
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  • Profile picture of the author George Flm
    That could be a million dollar question.

    To paraphrase Gary Halbert: he basically said that you are just one sales-letter away from riches.

    This has inspired me much...and that alone boosted my bottom line. One single line of advice. Then I started branding myself *through* crafting bad a## copy. Copywriting cost me *nothing* - "branding" would cost me everything.

    Brand Building Through Copywriting... is single-handedly guerilla warfare. That is my experience in scope of churning out products out of thin air. In my humble opinion of course.
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  • Profile picture of the author Azria432
    I like one with you. Thank you so much for this content.
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  • Profile picture of the author Thomas Ruggiero
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by Thomas Ruggiero View Post

      Whether you are trying to secure a new position, build a book of business, or become known as an 'expert,' a personal brand is a requirement. Employers are doing their due diligence and searching Online to find out if they will make someone an offer because they are covering their own butts when deciding. I'm sure you have heard stories about people who either didn't get a position because a potential employer checked out their Online footprint or someone was fired because of a social media post.

      What is a personal brand? It is you, your story, your image, and your reputation. The hardest part of creating a personal brand is knowing yourself well enough to be able to tell your story honestly, positively, and consistently. Once you know what to say, you will discover content everywhere you go.
      [Promotional text removed by moderator]
      Very well said. Consistency sticks out in this... what is said, how it is said, and in some cases when it is said. Also how and when a personal brand, or a more universal brand name is displayed... Like on every piece of printed material, on every graphic or image shared across the net, Like thw NAME used that is BRAND... how many platforms can you use the exact same name. If I can type in X to find your website, can I type X to find you on Facebook, and Youtube, and Twitter, and Instagram - THIS is BRAND effectively at work. Coca Cola is "Coca Cola" the world over, offline and online
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    A good thing to remember is a direct response isn't always in the form of money...

    it can also be in the form of emotions.

    Seeing a football player walking down the tunnel to the locker room and a little kid handing him a coke could bring uncontrollable tears to your eyes and as you sob like there's no tomorrow, you tell yourself the next time you go to Bob's carryout you're buying a Coke. The direct response of the ad created an emotion in you that will affect your future buying habits.

    Also, most big companies do have things where you can enter a code on a bottle cap...sign up for swag or coupons...or even win a trip.

    All direct response should also be branding.

    So, since Coke was mentioned...the ads they do not only entice businesses to carry more of their brand, but also encourages consumers to buy more because of the emotional response the ad created. It also gives their salespeople more clout when they talk to prospects.

    If you're in the downline and are a business that carries the Coke brand, your direct response would be more towards immediate customer satisfaction...3 cases for $5.00, or something to that effect. That would be direct response on the smaller level.

    Direct response is all about what level you're operating at.

    If you are Joe Oldman and are selling a course on how to pick up women over 90, most people probably would just want to get in on the action immediately. So, since you don't have a corporate brand selling to business owners, it would behoove you to just ask for information on the spot.

    Interesting post. Thank you for bringing up the subject
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    • Profile picture of the author trent001
      Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      A good thing to remember is a direct response isn't always in the form of money...

      it can also be in the form of emotions.

      Seeing a football player walking down the tunnel to the locker room and a little kid handing him a coke could bring uncontrollable tears to your eyes and as you sob like there's no tomorrow, you tell yourself the next time you go to Bob's carryout you're buying a Coke. The direct response of the ad created an emotion in you that will affect your future buying habits.

      Also, most big companies do have things where you can enter a code on a bottle cap...sign up for swag or coupons...or even win a trip.

      All direct response should also be branding.

      So, since Coke was mentioned...the ads they do not only entice businesses to carry more of their brand, but also encourages consumers to buy more because of the emotional response the ad created. It also gives their salespeople more clout when they talk to prospects.

      If you're in the downline and are a business that carries the Coke brand, your direct response would be more towards immediate customer satisfaction...3 cases for $5.00, or something to that effect. That would be direct response on the smaller level.

      Direct response is all about what level you're operating at.

      If you are Joe Oldman and are selling a course on how to pick up women over 90, most people probably would just want to get in on the action immediately. So, since you don't have a corporate brand selling to business owners, it would behoove you to just ask for information on the spot.

      Interesting post. Thank you for bringing up the subject
      So then what really is the difference between direct response and other forms of marketing? it seems you're expanding the definition so much above, that it virtually includes almost any form of marketing.

      I don't think direct marketing works that well for service businesses, like web design. Most of the successful ones I see are those who build brand... show up on podcasts, publish articles, and so on. Whereas direct marketing to me is more about mailing the sales letter, or sending the email with the special offer, no?
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      • Profile picture of the author max5ty
        Originally Posted by trent001 View Post

        So then what really is the difference between direct response and other forms of marketing?
        The difference is some ads suck donkey nads and the others don't.

        I can show you a million direct response ads that sent their creators to the poor house and I can show you a few that created great wealth.

        Don't get confused with thinking because someone calls it direct response that it gets any idiot reading it to take action...there's good and there's bad...

        direct response is getting me to directly respond whether it's with sending you loads of money or causing me to fall on the floor crying my eyes out because you touched my heart and I want to buy your stuff when I crawl my way to the supermarket next week
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        • Profile picture of the author trent001
          Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

          The difference is some ads suck donkey nads and the others don't.

          I can show you a million direct response ads that sent their creators to the poor house and I can show you a few that created great wealth.

          Don't get confused with thinking because someone calls it direct response that it gets any idiot reading it to take action...there's good and there's bad...

          direct response is getting me to directly respond whether it's with sending you loads of money or causing me to fall on the floor crying my eyes out because you touched my heart and I want to buy your stuff when I crawl my way to the supermarket next week
          So you mean both are direct response, whether they're aiming to get sales or build brand.

          If that's the case, why not just focus on getting sales directly all the time? Again, from what I've noticed, most service businesses in the digital world don't focus on direct response that gets sales as the immediate response. They may put out a lead magnet, publish articles, create social media content... NONE of that comes with a hard hitting direct offer the way people like Halbert do it. But they still sell their services... Just not directly.

          From what I see direct response aimed at getting sales only works in a few industries, but doesn't work for mainstream stuff. If you're an accountant and you're trying to get sales, how does direct response work? It's all about networking there, attending conferences, being a speaker at events for business owners, and so on. You can't send a letter to a business owner who never heard of you and pull response - otherwise more accountants would be doing it.

          Direct response may work for selling penis enhancement, get rich quick schemes, fitness stuff maybe. So a few niche markets.
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          • Profile picture of the author max5ty
            Originally Posted by trent001 View Post

            So you mean both are direct response, whether they're aiming to get sales or build brand.

            If that's the case, why not just focus on getting sales directly all the time? Again, from what I've noticed, most service businesses in the digital world don't focus on direct response that gets sales as the immediate response. They may put out a lead magnet, publish articles, create social media content... NONE of that comes with a hard hitting direct offer the way people like Halbert do it. But they still sell their services... Just not directly.

            .
            Are you talking about a service business like a plumber or electrician etc.?
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            • Profile picture of the author trent001
              Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

              Are you talking about a service business like a plumber or electrician etc.?
              Digital ones... take virtual accounting and web design as examples.
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              • Profile picture of the author max5ty
                Originally Posted by trent001 View Post

                Digital ones... take virtual accounting and web design as examples.
                I've never been one that thought selling information was a great idea...

                look back at all the crap that was sold. Most everyone that bought the stuff from the 90s and after are still as broke as the day they bought it. I'm probably older than you, but I've been around since the beginning of the whole internet riches thing...

                I'm talking back when real estate was sold on infomercials as a sure thing to get rich quick with nothing down and stuff like being able to work at home in your underwear was a thing...

                all wasted ideas that got nobody anywhere except for the very few hustlers that figured out how to sell the nonsense to others that were looking for the same nonsense.

                Honestly, do any of your neighbors or friends sit around wealthy because of this crap? Do you drive past a house in your neighborhood and say, "wow, that's bob's house, he bought a course on how to get rich from selling crap and now look at him!"

                I've always worked for companies that sold real live products that could actually be held and used.

                I have no idea what virtual accounting is. I own several businesses and still don't know what that term means.

                I'm not one that gets hung up on stupid definitions of stuff because I need to fit it into some nonsensical definition of some online stupidity.

                I'm not going off on you personally, I just get frustrated with all the nonsense out there

                Edit: And in full disclosure...yes I am getting old and do get grumpy at times
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                • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                  Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

                  I've always worked for companies that sold real live products that could actually be held and used.
                  My personal like selling "Product" In oh so many ways its just easier with the allowance for more complex strategies.

                  BUT... my passion falls in the realm of programming and algorithms.

                  This might be an interesting add to the discussion. I obviously build websites, I as a service provide CRO ( Conversion Rate Optimization ) to e-comm sites... E-Comm sites worth their weight in salt spend an amount of time dealing with Brand. You don't want people to come and buy once, you want them coming back repeatedly.

                  In my personal e-comm efforts, my main method of initial contact... or onboarding or method of acquiring a customer ( what ever you want to call it ) is through the use of a sales funnel ( Ad, lander, offer ) THIS would be Direct Response.

                  Because I am a geek... Because I collect and manipulate data into fancy reports... I understand that my funnels about 6% of the time create a 1st time visit direct response. Meaning; out of the blue has never visited before yada yada. The number increases from visit #2 and #3 and all the way to visit #8, and from there, there is a decline.

                  This very basic pattern repeats almost universally across all of the many properties I have access to data from.

                  It is very easy to say something like eBay is "Direct Response" someone searches something, they click on a product, and buy said product - about as direct response as it gets... However, WHAT initiated the search to begin with? and this is where the snow ball begins to roll...

                  In my experience - and L O T S of it... you can sell a well branded product IE Nike, or Sony, or North Face faster than some unknown or little known brand. BRAND sells

                  With all of that in mind...

                  Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

                  I've never been one that thought selling information was a great idea...
                  I am very much in agreement... but I personally am seeing the writing on the wall that "Product" maybe a hard sell here in the not so distant future.... I think we are coming apon a time where the choice between information, and product may make a flip.

                  I have been studying a bit excessively into "Publishing" and may very well expand into the "Information" sector... I'm almost questioning if there is a choice, but to go this route?

                  Product will always sell, don't get me wrong, BUT as things happen and prices drop, so does the top end profit revenue portion. I think I will always make 3x on the things I sell on like eBay, and Facebook, but Etsy... The time and effort to make, may pay less

                  BUT you spend 40 or 50 hours putting an "Information Product" together, there is no limitation of cost vs profit. There is only perpetual volume... Ones ability to place information in front of someone that would buy it.

                  How often in the last oh, I don't know 3 months have I said "TRAFFIC" is the answer... once you understand THAT, its all gravy... well I understand traffic well enough hahaha

                  My thinking is to start with developing and selling an Information product(s), and start developing a "Brand" and obviously leverage some of my personal brand in doing so. I then want to get into creating a "Trusted" publishing house, selling "product" that actually works - been 3rd party tested - stamped with approved type stuff. again build a BRAND..and use Direct Response as an avenue of conversion.
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      • Originally Posted by trent001 View Post

        So then what really is the difference between direct response and other forms of marketing? it seems you're expanding the definition so much above, that it virtually includes almost any form of marketing.
        My understanding was always (since studying direct response marketing) that it meant that an order (or more broadly, an action) came as a direct response to the ad/sales letter/video.

        Brand building was meant to improve how people thought of you and your offer.

        And, as has been said elsewhere, direct Response offers are also brand building offers. In fact, I don't know how any compelling offer wouldn't also be brand building.

        But like the Selling VS Marketing discussion, I see we are getting into muddy water.

        This is a tad out of my area of expertise.
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        • Profile picture of the author savidge4
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          My understanding was always (since studying direct response marketing) that it meant that an order (or more broadly, an action) came as a direct response to the ad/sales letter/video.

          Brand building was meant to improve how people thought of you and your offer.

          And, as has been said elsewhere, direct Response offers are also brand building offers. In fact, I don't know how any compelling offer wouldn't also be brand building.

          But like the Selling VS Marketing discussion, I see we are getting into muddy water.

          This is a tad out of my area of expertise.
          Direct Response, is just that a timely action... Branding is in-direct.

          I would suggest time and technology has had its play in this.

          I would suggest now, as Max5ty might agree with is every effort is Branding, there just so happen to be moments when the transaction happens now vs later.

          A direct response ad that gets a 10% conversion....the other 90% becomes what? One would hope there was an amount of Branding, in the conversion effort and maybe not the first touch, but the 5th or 20th there might be.

          An e-mail list being an example... you send your list an offer and <snap> first e-mail there is a 10% conversion - Direct Response... E-mails 2 and 3 and 4 and 15 you still get conversions ( at a decreasing rate over time ) and are these still direct response? The answer in Digital Marketers terms of tracking etc would say, YES.

          So lets really throw this into a bit of extreme...

          Gary Halbert: "Coat of Arms" sales letter - no ands if or buts - Direct Response

          Billy Mays: TV Infomercials - Direct Response? it is propagated as such - and sure they sold units with people calling in... but how many MORE units where sold in stores? Billy Leveraged BRAND ( As seen on TV )... and used Direct Response methods in doing this.

          Ron Popeil: TV infomercials - and again, I would say that he used direct Response as a method of Branding.

          Beach Body: Built a brand... but you cant go into a store to buy it... the ONLY method of purchase is what we ALL would consider "Direct Response" BUT the fact that I can say "Beach Body" and damn near everyone reading this knows what I am talking about - well THAT has BRAND written all over it.

          In the 4 examples... all but one, developed and leveraged BRAND using "Direct Response" methods.

          Gary Halbert went from one to the other to the next... there was no thread or connection between offers - other than the Author - and that is only known historically and not present to the recipient of any of the offers. There was NO brand building. Each effort was a new effort.

          The main board is chock full of examples of attempts and failures... or a better term would be lack of patience. There is only a handful of Gary Halbert caliber copywriters to have ever walked the earth. The rest of us? we need to learn to leverage brand, to get a repeated and consistent result - and kids... It takes time.. it takes a success... and then another, and another. You CAN'T bounce from one idea to the next to the other and not built a microsecond of momentum anywhere and expect things to get better.

          Think BRAND, and Execute Direct Response
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  • Huh? I think the death of DR is greatly exaggerated. DR is dead if you don't know how to do it.

    You can sell anything via DR. Coaching, accounting, web design, even commodities like SALT!

    The problem for most people is that you can't sell what you can buy from the supermarket via DR. And most people selling accounting, or coaching or web design or what have you, are selling EXACTLY THE SAME THING IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY as everyone else. If you do that, then of course it's hard. Of course you need to build brand. Of course it takes time. Because trust and likeability aren't developed in an instant, and those two factors are the only thing you have going for you when you're like everyone else.

    But bottom line is that you don't have to sell exactly the same thing in exactly the same way as everyone else. You can buy salt from the supermarket. And then turn around, change the packaging, take some nice photos, and write a crazy story about what makes that salt special. Tell us about how it was mined from the remotest peak of the Himalayas, it's been there untouched for thousands of years, talk about the extreme labor required to get it to you, and how it can't be found in supermarkets because of how expensive it is to collect, and maybe some Indian king used to use this salt, and him and his family lived longer, and how some celebrity only eats salt from the Himalayas (without mentioning that it's not your own - FALSE LOGIC, as Michael Masterson calls it) bla bla bla bla. All that stuff takes tremendous amount of research to pull off properly. Then charge 4x the supermarket price. And mark my words, if you DO NOT do this, you've got virtually NO CHANCE in direct response. Your offer better be something SO SPECIAL that they can't get it from anywhere else. They may get the salt, but not your offer. So your offer isn't just the product.

    Another example, recent from the news:

    "Billionaire Mark Cuban has launched a war against Big Pharma. Recently, he started an online pharmacy where over 100 lifesaving medications are offered at low costs. He charges a standard 15% markup in an industry that typically sees no less than 100% markup. In just one example, a life-saving leukemia drug with a typical retail price of $9,657 is offered by him for a total of $47. Insurance is not accepted due to the fact that it would force him to work with manufacturers requiring certain price points."

    Do you think Mark needs brand? Honestly. Does he need brand? Of course not. Because his offer is special, captures your attention immediately. Literarily all he needs to do is run ads saying "Save up to 20,400% on Lifesaving Medications. Buy here". Done. Millions go in his coffers.
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

      Huh? I think the death of DR is greatly exaggerated. DR is dead if you don't know how to do it.
      Has anyone said its dead? I think we are all saying we all use it... BUT DR only converts a percentage of those you reach out to... so what happens to the rest? This is where BRAND can make up for a lackluster sales campaign... Yes the method for onboarding is DR... but an ad seen repeatedly over and over, and seen here and seen there... if you like it or not... THAT is branding... With e-mail campaigns do you just send 1 e-mail, and ask for a conversion? the answer is no... its multiple hits over and over..and in THIS case... there is the leverage of personal brand to start with.. how did the people get on the list and stay there?

      The only thing dead here is the notion that DR works all by itself. It works in conjunction with BRAND...and if you are not setting BRAND behind your DR efforts... well that leads us to reading about failed efforts to make conversins after spending $1000 in facebook ads.

      Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

      You can sell anything via DR. Coaching, accounting, web design, even commodities like SALT!

      The problem for most people is that you can't sell what you can buy from the supermarket via DR.
      I can buy salt from the supermarket...Im confused

      you literally have no idea...oh yes you can... SPAM..i know your not in the States, but it comes in 6 different flavors..I actually have access to all 6... most peoplethat goto their local store willnot. SPAM happens to have a bit of a following, and I could without question start buying wholesale, and run ads on facebook and sell SPAM with DR


      nd most people selling accounting, or coaching or web design or what have you, are selling EXACTLY THE SAME THING IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY as everyone else. If you do that, then of course it's hard. Of course you need to build brand. Of course it takes time. Because trust and likeability aren't developed in an instant, and those two factors are the only thing you have going for you when you're like everyone else.

      Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

      But bottom line is that you don't have to sell exactly the same thing in exactly the same way as everyone else. You can buy salt from the supermarket. And then turn around, change the packaging, take some nice photos, and write a crazy story about what makes that salt special. Tell us about how it was mined from the remotest peak of the Himalayas, it's been there untouched for thousands of years, talk about the extreme labor required to get it to you, and how it can't be found in supermarkets because of how expensive it is to collect, and maybe some Indian king used to use this salt, and him and his family lived longer, and how some celebrity only eats salt from the Himalayas (without mentioning that it's not your own - FALSE LOGIC, as Michael Masterson calls it) bla bla bla bla. All that stuff takes tremendous amount of research to pull off properly. Then charge 4x the supermarket price. And mark my words, if you DO NOT do this, you've got virtually NO CHANCE in direct response. Your offer better be something SO SPECIAL that they can't get it from anywhere else. They may get the salt, but not your offer. So your offer isn't just the product.
      So now its ok to lie to people to make a sale? come on now

      Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

      Another example, recent from the news:

      "Billionaire Mark Cuban has launched a war against Big Pharma. Recently, he started an online pharmacy where over 100 lifesaving medications are offered at low costs. He charges a standard 15% markup in an industry that typically sees no less than 100% markup. In just one example, a life-saving leukemia drug with a typical retail price of $9,657 is offered by him for a total of $47. Insurance is not accepted due to the fact that it would force him to work with manufacturers requiring certain price points."

      Do you think Mark needs brand? Honestly. Does he need brand? Of course not. Because his offer is special, captures your attention immediately. Literarily all he needs to do is run ads saying "Save up to 20,400% on Lifesaving Medications. Buy here". Done. Millions go in his coffers.
      you picked a REALLY bad example with this one.... Where did you hear about it? What is the name of the company? Whats the URL? you know what? the ONLY way you will find the answer to that is to ether look at a number of news articles...OR type "Mark Cuban Pharmacy" in a search engine....

      He doesnt NEED brand? He IS BRAND... do you think if I started such a company that it would be on every News channel and in newspapers for you to read? UH NO... HE ( Mark Cuban ) is leveraging HIS PERSONAL BRAND.. there is not a single lick of DR anywhere to be seen here - NONE dont shake your head at me.. seen an ad for it? seen a commercial for it? seen anything? - NOTHING I tell you NOTHING - ALL BRAND.

      And it is this that makes Gary Halbert - who and what he is / was... he sent letters as in ONE letter and made sales... those days... those days are short of gone, and lord knows I dont have the ability to write like that.. very few VERY few do.

      Times and technology has changed... we are BLESSED with the opportunity at many touches over and over... There is without question a line. there is the first touch direct response and each touch after Brand? Brand ='s consistency of message - what is advertising? a consistent message played out over and over - if you dont get them the first time... maybe the 2nd or 5th or 40th time around you get them. Oh look they used a webpage to make the order... THATS does not make it "DR" can we agree to call it Branding with a DR kick - I sure would hope so.
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      • Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

        Has anyone said its dead? I think we are all saying we all use it... BUT DR only converts a percentage of those you reach out to... so what happens to the rest? This is where BRAND can make up for a lackluster sales campaign... Yes the method for onboarding is DR... but an ad seen repeatedly over and over, and seen here and seen there... if you like it or not... THAT is branding... With e-mail campaigns do you just send 1 e-mail, and ask for a conversion? the answer is no... its multiple hits over and over..and in THIS case... there is the leverage of personal brand to start with.. how did the people get on the list and stay there?

        The only thing dead here is the notion that DR works all by itself. It works in conjunction with BRAND...and if you are not setting BRAND behind your DR efforts... well that leads us to reading about failed efforts to make conversins after spending $1000 in facebook ads.
        Ok. I don't disagree. The OP was saying that most businesses nowadays rely on brand alone and direct response only works for certain industries. That's BS. DR works for anything, even pure DR. It's not going to be better than DR+branding, but it works.

        I can buy salt from the supermarket...Im confused
        That salt you buy from the supermarket isn't the special salt I was talking about. Because it has no story behind it.

        So now its ok to lie to people to make a sale? come on now
        All marketers are liars no? Kidding aside, yes, direct response involves a lot of techniques you could consider lying. But first a principle... value is driven by perception, if my salt is the same as the supermarket salt, except that I tell people how it's mined, how it's transported etc etc. Then in terms of their perception, my salt is different and more valuable. They did this at one point with beer. Can't remember the ad, but everyone was using the same process, just that one company put it in the ad... here's how we do it to give you the best beer.

        Michael Masterson, have you heard of him? He is a superstar in DR. He calls this concept FALSE LOGIC. Let's say you dropship stuff. You write on the website shipped from stock. Customer understands from YOUR stock. But it's really from the manufacturer's stock. Bob Bly and other DR copywriters subscribe to the idea as well. That's false logic.

        Now if you thibk what I told you is lying, I'd wonder what you'd say about the marketing of Agora in finance!! They're a billion dollar, DR only company. If what I said is lying to you, then I hope you don't read their sales letters! ))

        you picked a REALLY bad example with this one.... Where did you hear about it? What is the name of the company? Whats the URL? you know what? the ONLY way you will find the answer to that is to ether look at a number of news articles...OR type "Mark Cuban Pharmacy" in a search engine....

        He doesnt NEED brand? He IS BRAND... do you think if I started such a company that it would be on every News channel and in newspapers for you to read? UH NO... HE ( Mark Cuban ) is leveraging HIS PERSONAL BRAND.. there is not a single lick of DR anywhere to be seen here - NONE dont shake your head at me.. seen an ad for it? seen a commercial for it? seen anything? - NOTHING I tell you NOTHING - ALL BRAND.
        .
        Yes, in this case he is leveraging personal brand. My whole point tho is that he wouldn't need to, because he has an offer that is really special. You could start a business with that same offer, with no brand, and still rake in cash, albeit slower than him.

        I don't disagree with much of your other points, except to say that there are still many DR only businesses. Look into marketers like Doberman Dan and other DR copywriters or companies like Agora Financial and you'll find DR only businesses.
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        • Profile picture of the author savidge4
          Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

          All marketers are liars no? Kidding aside, yes, direct response involves a lot of techniques you could consider lying. But first a principle... value is driven by perception, if my salt is the same as the supermarket salt, except that I tell people how it's mined, how it's transported etc etc. Then in terms of their perception, my salt is different and more valuable. They did this at one point with beer. Can't remember the ad, but everyone was using the same process, just that one company put it in the ad... here's how we do it to give you the best beer.

          Michael Masterson, have you heard of him? He is a superstar in DR. He calls this concept FALSE LOGIC. Let's say you dropship stuff. You write on the website shipped from stock. Customer understands from YOUR stock. But it's really from the manufacturer's stock. Bob Bly and other DR copywriters subscribe to the idea as well. That's false logic.
          I have heard of him..and every time I see the book in Goodwill... I buy it and throw it away. just because others jump off a cliff, doesn't mean I have to


          Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting View Post

          Yes, in this case he is leveraging personal brand. My whole point tho is that he wouldn't need to, because he has an offer that is really special. You could start a business with that same offer, with no brand, and still rake in cash, albeit slower than him.
          because you didnt look...makes this all the more comical... the name of the business:

          The Mark Cuban Cost Plus Drugs Company (MCCPDC)


          You see... the fact is the offer is right in there with to good to be true... or Michael Masterson wrote the copy, and people are not so sure its the whole truth... The very concept is ridden with Trust issues... it would be a hard road to tow.

          The only way to get something like that to fly, would be how it is exactly being done - on the back of some ones personal brand.

          Even if you are Mark Cuban, you just cant say "Hey, Im going to open an online pharmacy today"

          This HAD TO BE pre existing... just the process of getting licensing in 49 States so that you can legally sell / ship in those States. ( Massachusetts btw is the only State that allows of state pharmacy purchases from its population. ) would be a red tape time consuming nightmare
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          Success is an ACT not an idea
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  • Can we mebbe refigure DIRECT RESPONSE as GRANTED WISH?

    Makes it less frickin' fancy, plus also I get to dress up all exotic.

    Actschwlly, I get to dress up all exotic anyways bcs I a Princess.

    Hey, but that is a technicality, I guess.

    Like DIRECT RESPONSE an' GRANTED WISH.

    How do I know this?

    Rub my lamp an' see what squoits out the spout.

    (Actschwlly, do naht do that RIGHT NOW bcs I am perfectin' my next meditation yogah talk to my Ditzy Dainty maligned swimwear groop next week an' I would naht wish for them to be jyoocin' unduly in advance. They are sweet, sweet gals, an' our myootyool exotic bendin' in the face of an increasingly unyieldin' Caahsmahs is a source of succor to us beyond all regulah stuffs, which is why gotta fart sumtimes when dowin' the more acrobatic postyoores simply bcs your entire alimentary canal is squeezed to nuthin' c/o the healin' imagry -- an' we so get that, tellya.)
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    Lightin' fuses is for blowin' stuff togethah.

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