Publishing crap for pennies (RANT)

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Brad Gosse

Did J K Rowling outsource Harry Potter?
Did James Cameron hire a Filipino to direct Titanic?

Does Tony Robbins get his books ghost written?
Did Frank Kern outsource Mass Control?

LOL....

I do get your point, Brad.

But you might wanna re-think these....

You might get answers that dis-prove your argument

Peace

Jay

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CDarklock

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Brad Gosse

Would you be as interested in my products if you found out I outsourced all my ideas/writing/product creations?

Wait... you don't?

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Fernando Veloso

14 years ago

Even big guns outsource many work - including copywriting, no doubt about it.

The BIG difference is WHO they outsource

But i see what you mean Brad, IM is full of crap these days - just like any other business. That can be good -you know it, I know it. So many crap just make the good stuff stand out.

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Kevin AKA Hubcap 14 years ago

Hi Brad

Easssssssyyyyyyyy Tiger. I think I understand the spirit of your post as far as connecting with an audience but I don't agree with the never outsource part.

I guess it comes down to how you see yourself and your business. I have specialized knowledge in a few of my niches. In other I don't but you know what I don't need to.

I can hire writers who can do research and are knowledgeable about the niche.

I don't need to be an expert on and write everything. I think of myself as a publisher. I find topics that I believe people will be interested in ( and profitable) and outsource the content creation.

Kind of like these guys:

Example 1 ---------->DK Publishing
Example 2-----------> Agora Inc
Example 3----------->Osprey Publishing

My company isn't as large as these yet, but that's the model I follow.

Kevin

P.S. You don't need to be the one connecting to the audience on a real and personal level.... you just need to have that person employed by or under contract with you (like Marvel comics and Stan Lee).
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k0zm0zs0ul

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Fernando Veloso

Even big guns outsource many work - including copywriting, no doubt about it.

The BIG difference is WHO they outsource

But i see what you mean Brad, IM is full of crap these days - just like any other business. That can be good -you know it, I know it. So many crap just make the good stuff stand out.

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

lol. Did you see the list of credits for that thing? :rolleyes:

And all newspapers outsource their content - the editors don't have to be interested in everything they publish.

The issue isn't about outsourcing vs doing it yourself. It's about quality control.

Frank

My sentiments exactly. There's nothing wrong with outsourcing, (I have to say that or I'd be out of work! LOL ). But it boils down to WHO you outsource to, and their skill and expertise in researching and writing on any given topic.

Often times, people hop online, want to make money at the whole IM thing, learn blogging or affiliate marketing 'could' be the ticket... then find out they hate writing, and writing is sort of what makes the Internet world turn!

So, they look for ways around the whole writing thing, but they want to do it as cheaply as possible, as they often either have no start up capitol, or are just darn cheap to begin with, and hire a sub-par writer to write for them and call it a day.

Many are content with that because they really aren't all that interested in the reader, they are just interested in throwing up websites quickly in the hopes they will turn a buck. Sad, but true. Or some just simply don't know any better just yet. It's vitally important, if you seek long-term success on the web, that you either learn to write valuable content yourself, or bite the bullet already, and shell out for a writer who knows what they heck they are doing. Otherwise you're just perpetuating worthless trash.

Warm regards,
Cori

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Frank Donovan

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Brad Gosse

Did James Cameron hire a Filipino to direct Titanic?

lol. Did you see the list of credits for that thing? :rolleyes:

And all newspapers outsource their content - the editors don't have to be interested in everything they publish.

The issue isn't about outsourcing vs doing it yourself. It's about quality control.

Frank

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Bart Loos

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Brad Gosse

Does Tony Robbins get his books ghost written?

Don't want to bust your bubble, but it seems he did.

At least this is what Eric Robbie, NLP Master Trainer, co-trainer with Bandler recalls about it on the NLP Connections Forum

Quote: "

When Tony Robbins decided he wanted a book out with his name on it, he gave US $5,000 to each of five leading nlp trainers of the mid-80s so that they would each write two or three chapters. Amongst those contributing were Wyatt Woodsmall, Tad James, and Cathy Modrial.

The resulting manuscript was then edited into unified shape, with the jargon smoothed out and the writing improved not by Tony Robbins, but by two desk editors - Peter Applebome and Henry Golden - with further editing by Jan Miller and Bob Asahina at Simon and Schuster. The title of the book is Unlimited Power (1986).
"

Which seemed to be a damn good strategy...

Have fun

Bart

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Brad Gosse

14 years ago

Brad chose poor examples to illustrate his point this morning LOL

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Kevin AKA Hubcap 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Brad Gosse

Brad chose poor examples to illustrate his point this morning LOL

It's not so much that but there's two different business models. Successful authors such as J.K. Rowling, Tom Clancy, Dan Brown etc make a lot of money and so do the publishing houses who publish and distribute their books.

I personally think being a successful author such as those listed above would be the best "job" in the world. They can work from anywhere in the world. All they need is a computer (or typewriter---do they still use those?) and they're in business (and they make a lot of $$$).

My writing skills leave much to be desired, hence I can't do what they can do.

Enter business model #2--- I not that great at writing the material but I know how to connect with the audience. Maybe I'm not a pro but a layman. Maybe I'm just learning how to scuba dive but don't have the experience of a 5yr dive instructor.

That's OK. I know what people in my position want and can borrow the experience of others.

That's what I do and that's what many publishers do.

Kevin
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Kay King

14 years ago

I think Brad's point still holds. If you outsource material to an EXPERT on the subject and pay the going rate for the EXPERT to write for you - you end up with an excellent product. This is done more often than many realize.

The problem is when you want a product written - know nothing about it and have no interest in it yourself - and want to outsource it cheaply, too.

There is a HUGE difference in those two approaches and anyone should be able to see it. The big names do outsource - but they outsource to high quality providers and aren't looking for "cheap writers" or "cheap programmers" or "cheap copywriters". They do know their own subject well and have great interest in it - and they hire outsourcers who also have knowledge and interest...plus the skills and time to do the work to a high standard.

kay

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Bart Loos

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I think Brad's point still holds. If you outsource material to an EXPERT on the subject and pay the going rate for the EXPERT to write for you - you end up with an excellent product. This is done more often than many realize.

The problem is when you want a product written - know nothing about it and have no interest in it yourself - and want to outsource it cheaply, too.

There is a HUGE difference in those two approaches and anyone should be able to see it. The big names do outsource - but they outsource to high quality providers and aren't looking for "cheap writers" or "cheap programmers" or "cheap copywriters". They do know their own subject well and have great interest in it - and they hire outsourcers who also have knowledge and interest...plus the skills and time to do the work to a high standard.

kay

Exactly, and that is what Robbins seems to have done when he was basically a nobody. Pay the experts to write him some content, that he leveraged massively.

As Bradd says if you don't have the money to spent to pay someone qualified in the topic...don't pay less to someone who's not qualified. Unless you don't care about the topic and you're just trying to get things done the easy way. Which is something that might work for a while, but you can't hold up as a great business model imo.

Have fun

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Brad Gosse

14 years ago

My point is this. If you are at the bottom, broke and in need of something to do online. Outsourcing is not for you.

If you are in a position to pay the best people to create your content then yes, you should outsource.

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DogScout

14 years ago

Still need to know WHO to outsource to. If Cameron had outsourced the lead role in 'Titanic' to Clint Eastwood, somehow I don't think he would have won all those Oscars.

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Brad Gosse

14 years ago

Originally Posted by DogScout

Still need to know WHO to outsource to. If Cameron had outsourced the lead role in 'Titanic' to Clint Eastwood, somehow I don't think he would have won all those Oscars.

LOL Clint Eastwood and Kate Winslet in a love scene would be creepy at best.

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Brad Gosse

14 years ago

Again just to clarify my problem is not with outsourcing in general just when it's done poorly to produce crappy content.

You guys are opening my eyes, thanks for that. I am rethinking my definition of outsourcing.

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Loren Woirhaye

14 years ago

I haven't actually posted on the WarriorForum in ages - since
I discovered my outsource drone was a better writer than me,
smarter, and much harder working, I just pay him pennies a
day to run everything while I kick back.

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MichaelHiles

14 years ago

I tried to talk my wife into outsourcing... nevermind.

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JMPruitt

14 years ago

I agree with the point. Even if you do outsource, you should never put your name on something you have never read. Outsourcing is great when you are not a great writer. Usually if I outsource something, I will read it and add a few tweaks to add my own voice and personalize it. I also double check everything, and have a friend, who is an English teacher proofread it for me, since my grammar is not always the best. Thanks for the great point though, there is a lot of crap being sold out there.

People need to think about the fact that everything they put their name to is their reputation. You might make a quick buck today, but forget about long term if you don't pay attention to the quality of what you send out.

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bgmacaw

14 years ago

Blah. The old publisher/producer vs. 'creative talent' argument. :rolleyes:

I've been around this old ball of dirt long enough to know that it's the publishers/producers/investors who will make money 9/10ths of the time or more. The soulless, talentless, suits who pay for, promote and market crap to the masses are the ones who usually make the big money over and over again. People with the talent and passion tend to work for these folks and, while a very few of them get rich doing it, most languish in mediocre pay and obscurity.

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Zeus66

14 years ago

One of my favorite quotes (even though I can't remember who said it originally):

"Those who know how end up working for those who know why."

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CDarklock

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

"Those who know how end up working for those who know why."

I remember as I was finishing my project management certification, I had this moment of clarity where all these big arguments I'd had with PMs in the past suddenly made sense... and in all of them, I had been completely wrong.

I had spent years talking to other software guys, and we all believed the PMs were just idiots who didn't know the basic principles of software development, and we all agreed that whenever the PM didn't do what development wanted it was stupid.

But I still understood the principles of software development, and in the light of actual PM training, the technical argument really was stupid and really didn't matter.

Geeks like me tend to conclude these stories with "And in that moment, I was enlightened."

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"The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers

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Bradley McK

14 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

I remember as I was finishing my project management certification, I had this moment of clarity where all these big arguments I'd had with PMs in the past suddenly made sense... and in all of them, I had been completely wrong.

I had spent years talking to other software guys, and we all believed the PMs were just idiots who didn't know the basic principles of software development, and we all agreed that whenever the PM didn't do what development wanted it was stupid.

But I still understood the principles of software development, and in the light of actual PM training, the technical argument really was stupid and really didn't matter.

Geeks like me tend to conclude these stories with "And in that moment, I was enlightened."

I think I became enlightened while reading this post! When I read the OP I agreed whole heartedly, and I still like to write it myself if I intend to put my real name on it. But I can see so many places where outsourcing would boost my income.

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k0zm0zs0ul

14 years ago

PS- I know a ton of marketers who outsource A LOT of their content. And I know some who do a blend... big projects they want to go over well, they either write themselves, or they hire the ghost and then go over and tweak it to make sure it's inline with what they want to say and portray.

Smaller things they may outsource, as it saves them time and allows them to work on the projects they most enjoy. Regardless of how they do it, the bottom line is they hire a reputable writer who knows how to write... otherwise they would not be the successes they are.

And if you are the type to throw something at your writer that you want done, and you want done completely hands-off for you, that you plan to affix your name to, you better make damn sure they are a writer of quality, or your good name will be sullied in no time flat. Just my two cents.

Warm regards,
Cori

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JohnMcCabe 14 years ago

Can't say for Rowling, but authors like Tom Clancy, Dan Brown and Dick Francis do a lot of outsourcing. They just do it a little differently - they outsource the research and do the writing themselves.

And even then, they have an editor that tunes things up.

The authors' strong point is weaving the story. The researcher makes sure it's realistic and the editor puts on the final polish.

The result, at least for me, is either a bad sunburn or a lost night of sleep when I lose myself in the end product.

How many $2 articles and penny-a-word ebooks can you say that about?
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Bev Clement

14 years ago

Being a ghostwriter for a major publishing house is totally different from being a ghostwriter online.

When I was commissioned by a publishing house, I had to attend an interview in London and talk to the senior editor before any decision was made. I worked very closely with the author, having his notes, transcripts of talks he had done, would talk to him to get to the bottom of the story being told.

Online however many IMers are told pay a few dollars and you can find any writer to create content which will get traffic even if it makes no sense. I have read so many articles recently which have gone back to the old format of keyword stuffing. I read a 400 word article which had the keyword in it on every single line.

Too many IMers don't have a clue what they want, they don't understand what a good quality article is, and some you can tell have been written by people who have English as a second language. They wouldn't be able to hire a ghostwriter offline, because it would take too much of their time.

As a ghostwriter, one thing I'm not is a mind reader, if you as a buyer don't know what you want, then how should I know?

People are told it is one of the quickest ways to make a $ just charge a buck or two and write a list type article and you will never be out of work. You can make thousands each month, but they forget the time it will take to achieve this.

How many people outside of IM are interested in list type articles? In my time as a writer I have had 1 client who asked for this type of articles.

How many people outside of IM are prepared to look at writers who are seen in their minds as too cheap?

To answer the question, ask the writers who have low rates (again this isn't a problem if this is their business model) as to how much work they have outside marketing forums. For most they use the WF or other forums to try and find clients.

What many writers don't understand is how to make the jump from writing for pennies and writing for decent rates.

Bev

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WebFlip

14 years ago

We'll it just boils down to the fact that there's no siphon or regulator of what the public puts out. I mean I've gotten to the point where I almost expect it. Granted the hard part is if you're running a legit operation and trying to get some cred and clout, it gets tougher. Although I'm a firm believer that if you have a good site with good content, it'll make it to the top.

-Safe Travels,

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SirHandsome

14 years ago

I myself despise the "anyone can make a product about anything in 7 days" mentality. Dilutes the internet with trashy products and crap content, and in the long run makes the average consumer less trustful of our advertising methods

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wordwizard

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Bev Clement

Being a ghostwriter for a major publishing house is totally different from being a ghostwriter online.

When I was commissioned by a publishing house, I had to attend an interview in London and talk to the senior editor before any decision was made. I worked very closely with the author, having his notes, transcripts of talks he had done, would talk to him to get to the bottom of the story being told.

Online however many IMers are told pay a few dollars and you can find any writer to create content which will get traffic even if it makes no sense. I have read so many articles recently which have gone back to the old format of keyword stuffing. I read a 400 word article which had the keyword in it on every single line.

Too many IMers don't have a clue what they want, they don't understand what a good quality article is, and some you can tell have been written by people who have English as a second language. They wouldn't be able to hire a ghostwriter offline, because it would take too much of their time.

As a ghostwriter, one thing I'm not is a mind reader, if you as a buyer don't know what you want, then how should I know?

People are told it is one of the quickest ways to make a $ just charge a buck or two and write a list type article and you will never be out of work. You can make thousands each month, but they forget the time it will take to achieve this.

How many people outside of IM are interested in list type articles? In my time as a writer I have had 1 client who asked for this type of articles.

How many people outside of IM are prepared to look at writers who are seen in their minds as too cheap?

To answer the question, ask the writers who have low rates (again this isn't a problem if this is their business model) as to how much work they have outside marketing forums. For most they use the WF or other forums to try and find clients.

What many writers don't understand is how to make the jump from writing for pennies and writing for decent rates.

Bev

Thanks for that great post, Bev! And for sharing the specifics of what it's like to be a ghostwriter for a major publishing house, among other things.

And that last sentence -- it's so true. There's potential for some products here ;-)

As for me, I'm going to take some time out and review Jenn Dize's ghost-writing course!

Elisabeth

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bgmacaw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by SirHandsome

I myself despise the "anyone can make a product about anything in 7 days" mentality. Dilutes the internet with trashy products and crap content, and in the long run makes the average consumer less trustful of our advertising methods

YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.

It's a little bit crummy how the music making money
Seems to slip on through to a world full of dummies
I just get jeers for my blood, sweat, and tears
'Cause rock and roll records ain't selling this year

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Mukul Verma

14 years ago

I think this depends on how you run your business.

I personally try to be as little involved in day to day, so I would outsource everything day to day. If you are a specialist in IM or other field, people buy becuase of your knowledge then DONT outsource, since are the product.