How much do YOU pay your virtual assistant?

by TTran
60 replies
Hey warriors, these repetitive tasks are really starting to kill me. (Directory submissions, account creation, article submission, backlink building....)

What I'm wondering is: how much money do you shell out to outsource these mindless repetitive tasks? ($/hr)

I'd just like to see a range of numbers before I make a job posting on some freelancing websites.

Thanks in advance,
Thao Tran :p
#assistant #pay #virtual
  • Profile picture of the author Negotiator74
    I have a full time employee for $75.00 per week from the Philipines. Just started a month ago and I wish I would have started two years ago. Best move I've ever made in IM.
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    • Profile picture of the author TTran
      Originally Posted by Negotiator74 View Post

      I have a full time employee for $75.00 per week from the Philipines. Just started a month ago and I wish I would have started two years ago. Best move I've ever made in IM.
      Negotiator, thanks for the response.

      Would that $75 be for a 40 hour work week?
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      • Profile picture of the author Negotiator74
        Hi again,

        Yes, the going rate for independent Filipino's is $75.00 per week for a 40 hour per week. As another poster said you can pay in upwards of $675 per month on sites like AgentsofValue.com but I definitely would not recommend that route...been there done that. I now just go direct with sites like Find a real, online job! | Home and Best Jobs Philippines :: Philippine job search, job bank, employment and recruitment

        Good luck to you...you are thinking the right thoughts about outsourcing your busy work. You should be working on the bigger picture items and leave the other stuff to your employee.

        Originally Posted by TTran View Post

        Negotiator, thanks for the response.

        Would that $75 be for a 40 hour work week?
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        • Profile picture of the author TTran
          Originally Posted by Arun Kumar View Post

          I would pay about $5/hour in the starting. Depending upon his quality of work, you can increase the salary later.
          That is a bit higher than what I'm aiming for but we'll see...

          Originally Posted by nimuel View Post

          i am from philippines too...

          i pay them 10$ per 5k hotmail gmail twitter accounts
          not sure with other stuff

          and for full time 20$ per hour
          its total worthy for me
          Haha that is quite a lot of money.

          Originally Posted by SeanSupplee View Post

          There are legit sites where you can higher backlink experts from the Philippines for about $675 a month and thats full time work for them they are yours every day to build backlinks for your business.
          Thanks for the resource, I'll check it out.

          Originally Posted by Negotiator74 View Post

          Hi again,

          Yes, the going rate for independent Filipino's is $75.00 per week for a 40 hour per week. As another poster said you can pay in upwards of $675 per month on sites like AgentsofValue.com but I definitely would not recommend that route...been there done that. I now just go direct with sites like Find a real, online job! | Home and Best Jobs Philippines :: Philippine job search, job bank, employment and recruitment

          Good luck to you...you are thinking the right thoughts about outsourcing your busy work. You should be working on the bigger picture items and leave the other stuff to your employee.
          Oh yeah, I've been suggested these links before. For some reason "outsourcing to the Philippines" is so popular. I guess I'll find out why soon

          I'm still wondering if you guys post your salary offer on the job posting?
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        • Profile picture of the author Riz
          Thanks for these resources.

          I'm looking for outsourcers and this will come in handy :-)

          Riz

          Originally Posted by Negotiator74 View Post

          Hi again,

          Yes, the going rate for independent Filipino's is $75.00 per week for a 40 hour per week. As another poster said you can pay in upwards of $675 per month on sites like AgentsofValue.com but I definitely would not recommend that route...been there done that. I now just go direct with sites like Find a real, online job! | Home and Best Jobs Philippines :: Philippine job search, job bank, employment and recruitment

          Good luck to you...you are thinking the right thoughts about outsourcing your busy work. You should be working on the bigger picture items and leave the other stuff to your employee.
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    • Profile picture of the author blackjack
      Originally Posted by Negotiator74 View Post

      I have a full time employee for $75.00 per week from the Philipines. Just started a month ago and I wish I would have started two years ago. Best move I've ever made in IM.
      Hi

      Any tips or advice finding these VAs, what to avoid etc?

      Thanks
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    • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
      Originally Posted by Negotiator74 View Post

      I have a full time employee for $75.00 per week from the Philipines. Just started a month ago and I wish I would have started two years ago. Best move I've ever made in IM.
      Your avatar might not be so distorted if you had
      Signature

      Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm. -Winston Churchill

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  • Profile picture of the author Vishalicious
    i am from philippines too...

    i pay them 10$ per 5k hotmail gmail twitter accounts
    not sure with other stuff

    and for full time 20$ per hour
    its total worthy for me
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    Outsource Your Offline Business Projects. Just Send me a PM :)
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    • Profile picture of the author Negotiator74
      Did you really mean to say $20.00 per hour?? Must by a typo

      Originally Posted by nimuel View Post

      i am from philippines too...

      i pay them 10$ per 5k hotmail gmail twitter accounts
      not sure with other stuff

      and for full time 20$ per hour
      its total worthy for me
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  • Profile picture of the author Arun Kumar
    I would pay about $5/hour in the starting. Depending upon his quality of work, you can increase the salary later.
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  • Profile picture of the author Vishalicious
    Originally Posted by Negotiator74 View Post

    Did you really mean to say $20.00 per hour?? Must by a typo
    no, seriously
    installing vbulletin phpbb IPB and installing few hacks, templates and all...

    so you think its too much ?
    then how much should i pay ?
    please guide me if i am wrong
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    Outsource Your Offline Business Projects. Just Send me a PM :)
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  • Profile picture of the author SeanSupplee
    There are legit sites where you can higher backlink experts from the Philippines for about $675 a month and thats full time work for them they are yours every day to build backlinks for your business.
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  • Profile picture of the author TTran
    Hey guys, I will respond to each of your suggestions soon.

    However, I have a quick question.

    Do you usually post how much you're planning to pay them in your job post?
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Stigson
    My VA is $37.50 a week part-time, builds links and directory submissions, mostly from Angela And Paul backlinks packages and blog commenting. Also works with all kinds of tools, so "I get a lot done" without doing it. Each day I get a reprt with about 60 angela and paul links to the site she worked on for the day and directory submission, social bookmarking if she did any, etc

    Very happy with it and making back the money 10 fold

    - Chris
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeff Bronson
      Originally Posted by Chris Stigson View Post

      My VA is $37.50 a week part-time, builds links and directory submissions, mostly from Angela And Paul backlinks packages and blog commenting. Also works with all kinds of tools, so "I get a lot done" without doing it. Each day I get a reprt with about 60 angela and paul links to the site she worked on for the day and directory submission, social bookmarking if she did any, etc

      Very happy with it and making back the money 10 fold

      - Chris
      Outsourcing overseas has been on my mind lately, and a point you brought up here about tools makes me want to ask....

      How do you deal with giving the VA the tools they need to get the job done? Does your software allow install on multiple machines...then what if they don't work out. Or do you purchase a copy for them or what? I'm referring to tools like article spinners/submitters, rss tools etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author n7 Studios
    Don't forget that a VA who works 20 hours @ $5/hr ($100) costs more than a VA who only needs 10 hours @ $7.50/hr ($75) to complete the same task.

    Don't get hung up on the hourly rate. It's not the only factor.
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    • Profile picture of the author TTran
      Originally Posted by Chris Stigson View Post

      My VA is $37.50 a week part-time, builds links and directory submissions, mostly from Angela And Paul backlinks packages and blog commenting. Also works with all kinds of tools, so "I get a lot done" without doing it. Each day I get a reprt with about 60 angela and paul links to the site she worked on for the day and directory submission, social bookmarking if she did any, etc

      Very happy with it and making back the money 10 fold

      - Chris
      Chris I'm happy for your success. I hope having a VA will be that beneficial for me =)

      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      Personally, I think if you get a top notch VA, spend time training them in what you want and they're productive for you, I'd give them a lot more than $75 per week.

      You want someone who will stick around for years to come, you've got to share the wealth. There's nothing worse in my book than having to keep finding new people month after month just because the last one was able to get $5 per hour more from someone else.
      Thanks for the suggestion. I will definitely consider that when I finally choose a VA after sifting through all of these applications.

      Do you have any tips for what kinds of questions I should ask them in the interview? I've setup a job posting that has the basic questions on it but am looking to go more in-depth after they have made the "first cut."

      Originally Posted by n7 Studios View Post

      Don't forget that a VA who works 20 hours @ $5/hr ($100) costs more than a VA who only needs 10 hours @ $7.50/hr ($75) to complete the same task.

      Don't get hung up on the hourly rate. It's not the only factor.
      Haha thanks, I haven't really thought of it like that. Do you know any way I can question my possible VA's in an interview to test their speed? That would be awesome as I'm having trouble narrowing down the candidates.

      I'm planning to send them a new set of questions to test how fast they can respond and of course the quality of their responses. However, if anyone has any certain questions that are important to include, please suggest them to me.

      Thanks in advance!
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    • Profile picture of the author dreamtab
      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      Personally, I think if you get a top notch VA, spend time training them in what you want and they're productive for you, I'd give them a lot more than $75 per week.

      You want someone who will stick around for years to come, you've got to share the wealth. There's nothing worse in my book than having to keep finding new people month after month just because the last one was able to get $5 per hour more from someone else.
      True. If you need a VA for long term then $75/week will never work. In fact, for Professional VA's you need to spend more. There are many VA's who charge $40/hour

      Originally Posted by n7 Studios View Post

      Don't forget that a VA who works 20 hours @ $5/hr ($100) costs more than a VA who only needs 10 hours @ $7.50/hr ($75) to complete the same task.

      Don't get hung up on the hourly rate. It's not the only factor.
      Exactly.
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    • Profile picture of the author MerlynSanchez
      Originally Posted by n7 Studios View Post

      Don't forget that a VA who works 20 hours @ $5/hr ($100) costs more than a VA who only needs 10 hours @ $7.50/hr ($75) to complete the same task.

      Don't get hung up on the hourly rate. It's not the only factor.
      Great point. I hired a VA (well-rounded, she has admin, wordpress, and SEO skills) for $18.50 USD. Great English, spoken and written. Although this is much more than most places advertise for Filipino workers, it was much less than I've paid in the U.S.

      But it took her twice as long to finish tasks than it did VA's here in the U.S. that I had hired for $35 per hour!
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  • Profile picture of the author TTran
    AP what do you mean "FT phillipines?"

    Edit: NVM, I get it now
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  • Profile picture of the author ezimedia
    Hi

    Some one PM me I can pay $50 - $75 per week... if I can get 1 or 2 good helpers per week...

    How many hours per day would that get me..

    I will pay more once I find the right person..

    Tom
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    • Profile picture of the author John Tighe
      By way of a specific example:

      I paid $10 for 50 social bookmark links.

      I could have got it for $5, but I would've had to wait a few days so I offered more to jump the queue.

      The guy who did it was in India. He sent through a report so I was able to check out the work.
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  • Profile picture of the author YanKirby
    Im From the Philippines, an IMer for 3 years and since this year, been getting everything delegated to some of the people I know. $75 per week in the philippines is a good figure. But if you want to keep the right person for long, you got to take care of him/her better.

    I generally do everything on a "per job" basis to keep the costs down. Once I get a site viable and the $$ start coming in, that's the time I go full scale -- Assigning 2-3 people on the same site to do the backlinking, directory submissions, social media etc.

    Hope this was insightful. If I missed anything or you need any clarifications regarding how to effectively outsource your work to the philippines, let me know. I'll try my best to lend a hand out.

    All the best!
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  • Profile picture of the author xlfutur1
    $125 per week (full time) for just all tasks except article writing. Keep in mind that its pretty rare to find a full time VA that can do everything. I am learning that its better to have a few people part-time doing things they are really experienced at. Its definitely a time saver, especially for mundane things that we all don't like to do but have to at some point, like link building, article submission, putting wordpress sites together, etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author debukur
    Do you VAs do stuff like finding sites for linking, blog comments, yahoo answers, link exchange, re-write articles, more sophisticated thing (please specify)?
    I would need a VA I would start with PT at $40 a week. Just in case someone can recommend one.
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  • Profile picture of the author thedogtreatjar
    I find people on oDesk. The vast majority of my hires from there are from the Philippines. Odesk does take a small percentage for the use of their system but for my money it is well worth it. You have all these people at your fingertips, you can negotiate the price with them, set their hours for the week or pay per project. You also get a screen shot every 20 minutes to see what they are doing I pay my backlink people 3-5/hour, my sales people 12/hour, writers 7-9/hour and a graphic artist 8/hour.

    The only big problem is I am often stuck staying up all night because of the time difference. Typically they are more than willing to work graveyard for you - but of course everybody is different
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  • Profile picture of the author Allen Graves
    Do you think you could trust someone from the Phillipines to give them your website FTP information and have them actually get into your site files and create pages for you if you give them the content and train them?

    Not that Phillipinos are not trustworthy...the conversation just seems to be leaning way over toward outsourcing to the Phillipines.

    I am looking for someone to help me with one of my article directories, but I would have to give them access to the backend and guts of the site.

    Allen
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    • Profile picture of the author J. Barry Mandel
      Allen -

      I have total trust in my Phillipino VA and he has access to EVERYTHING - all login codes for all sites except for PP & CB

      To qualify, he has been working for me for the past year straight and it's been a very pleasant dream still even to this day




      Originally Posted by Allen Graves View Post

      Do you think you could trust someone from the Phillipines to give them your website FTP information and have them actually get into your site files and create pages for you if you give them the content and train them?

      Not that Phillipinos are not trustworthy...the conversation just seems to be leaning way over toward outsourcing to the Phillipines.

      I am looking for someone to help me with one of my article directories, but I would have to give them access to the backend and guts of the site.

      Allen
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      • Profile picture of the author rrakausk
        I just gave my VA a raise to $70 a week and she is full time and very capable. She even trains and hires other outworkers for me.

        I trust her implicitly, her work ethic is tops. Most Philippinos are great loyal workers but you have to train them. They are not miracle workers. So far my success rate with folks I can work with and who end up doing what I need when I need it, is one out of three.

        Pretty good IMHO.

        Go look at John Jonas' site and blog for further great info on hiring outsourced workers.

        Cheers
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  • Profile picture of the author davidofderbyshire
    £50 per week
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  • Profile picture of the author thedogtreatjar
    Allen Graves, that is all up to your own discretion. I don't allow anybody that sort of access. But if I did, I would let any of my contractors do it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Allen Graves
    Thanks Mike - if you know of anyone that I might contact, shoot me an email/PM. :-)

    Allen
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  • Profile picture of the author TTran
    Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I made a job post on a freelance website and had a turnout of about 90 applicants. I've narrowed it down to about 15 and will be interviewing them soon for the VA job.

    On a different subject..

    I'm wondering if power outages are common in the Philippines area? One of my new writers have had a "power outage" problem and I don't know if he's just being flaky or if it's a legitimate problem?

    Maybe this is a question for another thread..

    We'll see.

    Thanks,
    Thao Tran
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  • Profile picture of the author tknoppe
    Since I run an American outsourcing company - I AM the hired help. My husband and my adult children work with me in the company. I used to be a per-hour web designer and now have flat-rate monthly service packages. This works well for me and for my clients.

    TTran, I have heard that power outages are common in the Philippines. Not sure how common; but I will say I have heard that the majority of Filipinos are very hard workers and if they have a power outage, they will work hard to make up the time lost.
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  • Profile picture of the author paulie888
    Mark, would you mind elaborating what sort of services your outsourcers were advertising for $1.38 and $1.62 per hour? What are they capable of doing at these bargain-basement rates? Just curious to see what you're using them for. Also, where did you find these outsourcers, care to share the site you found them on?
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      • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
        Banned
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          • Profile picture of the author SamuelJ
            Been hiring in the Philippines for awhile and a good average for
            general work is $3-$3.30ph I find
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          • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
            Banned
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          • Profile picture of the author Gee S
            Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting View Post

            To my understanding Mike, it's a one-off payment,
            not recurring.
            When I checked the site and clicked to pay, I had the impression it was a monthly cost. The paypal button was a subsctiption one.
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        • Profile picture of the author Ralf Skirr
          Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

          I was looking at them - did I misunderstand that the service costs $97 per month on top of what you pay the VA?
          Yes, it's a subscription. And that covers only the videos you get to train your VAs. I found that I rather create my own videos or training manuals. What other produce rarely matches the exact process I want to use.

          And besides that there are lots of free videos out there that you can show your VA. For example all the wordpress issues are covered by free videos well. So for many tasks you don't even need to create your own video or buy it.

          Onlinejobs.ph has way to few people looking for work. Last time I checked there were only a few dozen people available. Rather go with bestjobs.ph (although offline today) or odesk or any of the popular outsourcing sites.

          Replaceyourself also gives access to the bestjobs.ph database, but it is not updated correctly. You end up losing opportunities.

          Ralf
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  • Profile picture of the author paulie888
    Thanks for the info, Mark. I know this question may sound rather silly, but have you ever run into the problem of not having enough work to give them? I realize that 40 hours a week is a lot, and unless you're putting up a whole array of sites every week I can see where you might occasionally run into lulls where they don't have too much (or nothing to do). Have you come across anything like that so far, and if so, how did you fill those little gaps?
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  • Profile picture of the author Katie Rich
    This explains why I have never found work on odesk!!

    Don't get me wrong, I am delighted that you can find excellent VA's for next to no pay, but now I know I am completely wasting my time there I will delete the account.

    B**ger
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  • Profile picture of the author MerlynSanchez
    Originally Posted by TTran View Post

    Hey warriors, these repetitive tasks are really starting to kill me. (Directory submissions, account creation, article submission, backlink building....)

    What I'm wondering is: how much money do you shell out to outsource these mindless repetitive tasks? ($/hr)

    I'd just like to see a range of numbers before I make a job posting on some freelancing websites.

    Thanks in advance,
    Thao Tran :p
    Currently paying $75.00 USD per week for an SEO VA and another $75.00 per week for a web/designer VA. Both Philippines based. Just started so I'm still evaluating.
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  • Profile picture of the author honeyyoung
    You can try hiring Filipino VAs at easyoutsource.com. It is still free to join and hire at this site.
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  • Profile picture of the author EndGame
    Can anyone share/elaborate on where you guys are going to find these VA's etc?

    Or are you all finding them on the replacemyself.com site?

    Cheers
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    • I find all of my VA's through Odesk. It's THE BEST place to find highly-qualified, experienced VA's. Granted, the workers there are more expensive but it's worth every penny.

      I have two VA's working for me from the Philippines through Odesk. One is my "right-hand" woman and she started at $6/hour but I've given her a few raises and bonuses since I hired her over a year ago. My other VA has been with me for about 6 months and he charges $5/hour. Again, not the cheapest, but for the quality I get I can't complain.

      For those of you that are finding good workers for $1.75/hour (or whatever the rate was), that's insane! More power to you but I have no idea how you'd find good workers at that rate. I spent over 2 months looking for an affordable GOOD VA and I couldn't find anyone until I ran into Odesk and $5/hour was as cheap as I could find.

      Another reason I recommend Odesk is because they track your VA's work by capturing what they're doing on their computer. You not only have an exact accounting of their time, but you can "see" what they were working on during that time. It's pretty slick. Odesk also takes care of any paper work, billing, etc.

      And another bonus is for tax purposes. My accountant told me that if I was working with foreign workers directly, it could possibly trigger some tax ramifications. But since I pay Odesk and not the workers, I'm paying for a service so I don't have to worry about anything.

      Travis

      Originally Posted by EndGame View Post

      Can anyone share/elaborate on where you guys are going to find these VA's etc?

      Or are you all finding them on the replacemyself.com site?

      Cheers
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  • Profile picture of the author rajput441
    Hey TTran,

    I know an article submission service provider who can take your articles and submit them for you on article directories. You don't have to own an account he does the submission on an EZA premium account and Free Traffic System pro account and many others.
    I think this could ease your job since article submission is really annoying.
    If your interested let me know I could send you more info about him.
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  • Profile picture of the author rajput441
    Hey EndGame,
    Make a post on GAF and you will get many offers.
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    • Profile picture of the author klondike
      Originally Posted by rajput441 View Post

      Hey EndGame,
      Make a post on GAF and you will get many offers.
      No offense to anyone Indian. But my experience is that GAF has given me the SHODDY work, that is ALWAYS LATE. I've even tried hiring 4 people which I thought were all well qualified, only to find out the NONE of them were capable and pretty much lied to me. Never use GAF if you like good work, on-time. In general, be weary of Indian freelancers. They will do a little as possible for the most amount of money they can get. They are bad at the big picture and have little-no cultural similarities to the US/UK. Avoid.
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    • Profile picture of the author theplugindude
      Hello everyone..
      I am Aravindh.S
      I think I am the perfect person for the job of a virtual assistant..
      I have senuke,Internet business promoter and Market Samurai..
      I also have Instant Social Anarchy at my disposal..
      I unfortunately cannot pm you people because of my low number of posts..
      I have played around with these softwares and I can help you
      Hope you select me as your virtual Assistant..
      Thank you

      Aravindh
      (email id:iloveakon00@gmail.com)
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      • Profile picture of the author Zahzel
        Hi
        Send me a message thru the forum with examples and rates for P/T and when it becomes profitable - FT
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    • Profile picture of the author ShayB
      I pay my VA a lot more than $5 an hour.

      She's worth every penny, and then some. In fact, I look forward to giving her a raise as soon as possible.

      Why? Because she is worth it. She takes the time to do the little (and not so little) day-to-day things that free me up to do more Income Producing Activities.

      I really don't understand the whole "I want to find someone for a rock-bottom rate" mentality. This is someone I am trusting with my business information and reputation. She helps with customer service. My customers. You know, the ones that buy stuff from me. The ones that help me earn my living.

      I want to pay her what she's worth (okay, I can't do that - she's worth her weight in gold - but I want to come as close to it as possible) so that she stays with me. I want her happy, paid well and to know she's appreciated.

      JMHO and YMMV
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      "Fate protects fools, little children, and ships called Enterprise." ~Commander Riker
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  • Profile picture of the author paternosterg
    I have 4 people working for me right now.

    A full time (40hrs per week) web designer $320 per month.

    A part time (10hrs per week) graphic artist $91 per month.

    A full time (40hrs per week) VA $227 per month.

    A full time (40hrs per week) VA just for simple tasks $114 per month.
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  • Profile picture of the author grimace_86
    Hi,

    I pay about $110 AUD per week.

    I have my VA do mainly article writing, blog posts, and now have her doing small reports.

    I had her do tasks like submitting my sites using directory submitter but found that it was way to time consuming, and just plain easier paying for a service here on the warrior forum to do it for me.
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  • Profile picture of the author dremora
    I have an Eastern European VA who handles boring repetitive tasks and excel spreadsheet/data entry stuff, I pay them $5/hr. I hired $2-3/hr people before and they seem to take a lot longer to complete the same task than the $5/hr one.
    I'd rather pay some more and have the results fast than pay lower and wait forever.

    For really small stuff I just hire fiverrs & mechanical turks.

    These days I'm doing everything myself to get expert skills. When I knew 0 about wordpress I got badly ripped off or couldn't tell the providers what exactly to do since I knew nothing. With good wordpress and coding skills, I can give much better instructions and training and also notice the bad quality/underdelivery right away. And I can get some of the stuff done right away rather than spending hours for hiring, screening,telling them what to do etc.

    I hired people for article writing services but got horrid results. Anything halfway decent costs an arm and a leg. I can now write a 300-400 word article from scratch in a 10-15 minutes, and rewrite an existing article in 5.

    Money is not the issue here, but I'm a cheap miser and I really can't suffer being charged for extremely low quality and waiting forever for delivery. I'm better off doing it myself fast than paying to waste my time.

    I will hire people for these tasks when I see someone who can do it better than me for a reasonable price.
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  • Profile picture of the author Zahzel
    If you have good luck with your VA - pls let me know - I want one PT to start. Please send me an email thru the forum Thanks!
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  • Profile picture of the author Aviator Joe
    interesting to see everyone's responses, i'll be getting myself some assistants myself soon so this is valuable info
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  • Profile picture of the author PPCprof
    $100 per month, 24hours back and call. [they have shift work]
    1 agent.

    if i need more work to be done then they will allocate another agent and that will be 2 times.. logical.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheXrumerServices
    We have payed some of our assitants about 10$/h but it was such a waste of time and money so my tip look carefully what kind of assistant you get because it may happen that he just wants to scam you.

    Regards
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  • Profile picture of the author Latsyrc
    Wow. I'm a VA for a well known coupon blogger. I'm definitely spoiled based on these rates.
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  • Profile picture of the author PPCprof
    it really depends on which country your VA is from.
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