I Am Bothered By People Who Hate Direct Response Marketing

55 replies
I am really BOTHERED by elitist snobs who look down on direct response marketing.

There is a large chunk of people who hate DM, and it bugs the hell out of me.

I was just chatting with an elitist kid my age (late 20's) who is going to school to learn marketing/advertising/entepreneurialsm at a private school funded by his parents. Hes learning lots of madison ave, sexy crap that his inexperienced professors are teaching him.

He is doing a direct-mail drop and I told him to make his postcards tacky and catchy, and copy intensive.

I then showed him the style of marketing I like: Captain Chris Close Combat Training - Self Defense & Mixed Martial Arts Techniques & Moves, Black Belt & Military Army Training, Street Fighting Tips, Books & DVD (I just heard an interview with this guy with Ryan Deiss -- VERY interesting.)

He said "you're really into sleazy marketing. That is all fine.. if you can sleep at night.."

As if I do unethical things and I am some snake oil salesman.

Now, dont get me wrong, I have questioned my ethics at times. But I see NO unethical things with Direct Response Marketing, as long as its truthful and you deliver a quality product.

I've found that there are many people like this -- people who think that Direct Marketing is too cheesy and that it doesn't work, and that they'd never buy it, blah blah blah.

This whole sentiment has made me NOT WILLING to ever show my sites to people I know -- as it seems many people are annoyed my direct response stuff.

Sadly, I LOVE it with a passion and I love how gimicky, offbeat and cheesy it is..

Is anyone in the same boat I am in?

P.S. - Now sites like THIS are unethical: Steve's Ripped Combo - How I Got Ripped In Just 4 Weeks

Because its a lie. And it doesn't work. Now THAT would keep me up at night.
#bothered #direct #hate #marketing #people #response
  • Profile picture of the author pheonix44
    Before I ever heard of IM I was doing direct response. My mom thought I was crazy for trying all these "get rich quick schemes" as she called them. I was obsessed, I must have had hundreds of letters from people I would order from and I even had her do a mailing for me once. If the internet went down tomorrow I'd get back into direct response in a hear beat.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1448946].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      It's the recipients that fly off the handle because you sent them a postcard that can drive you batty. You just have to add them to your suppression list and move on.
      Signature

      Dan's content is irregularly read by handfuls of people. Join the elite few by reading his blog: dcrBlogs.com, following him on Twitter: dcrTweets.com or reading his fiction: dcrWrites.com but NOT by Clicking Here!

      Dan also writes content for hire, but you can't afford him anyway.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1448955].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Jag82
    Direct response marketing is one of most cost effective and highest ROI marketing channel out
    there.

    Just look at direct response company like Agora publishing.
    Or Nightingale-Conant.

    These are reputable companies with millions of subscribers. And revenues
    well into the hundreds of millions.

    Some people will just not get it, because they have a pre-conceived
    notion of how things must be done.

    It's okay. As long you know yourself you have proof that this works
    and your customers are happy. That's all that matters.

    Jag
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1448960].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
    Originally Posted by The Oilman View Post

    He said "you're really into sleazy marketing. That is all fine.. if you can sleep at night.."

    As if I do unethical things and I am some snake oil salesman.
    Yeah, so says the guy who is going to school for INDIRECT marketing. What else could it be if it proclaims itself to be the opposite of "direct" marketing, right?

    Ephemeral pursuits like "branding" were largely invented by ad firms to sell to huge companies with money to waste buying a result that can't be measured.

    Imagine! We can sell ads based on if the client likes it and it doesn't even have to WORK! Then Don Draper opens his desk and has a martini.

    I think that everyone who says they "don't like" direct marketing, what they're actually saying is that they FEAR direct marketing because deep down, they KNOW it works. They know this because at some point in their past, it worked so well that they ended up being sold something they weren't happy with.

    It MUST have been that EVIL marketing that made me do something that I WANTED to do but in retrospect, I am now unhappy with!

    That fear leads to avoidance, which they try to justify as distaste. But it's not. It's FEAR and FEAR of it proves its power. If your job is to sell stuff, you need to know DIRECT marketing. If your job is to sell advertising campaigns to large companies, the indirect marketing will work too.

    To any business we're working with that is wary of the direct marketing approaches I recommend, I just say "let's test it". They don't hire me because they're happy with their marketing, after all. And when they're unhappy with the marketing, it's not the looks of it. It's the performance of the marketing. It's the result that they're unhappy with.

    But there's good news - "direct" marketing always works. You don't have to be clever or have the best idea or the slickest graphics. You just have to do it, and test it. If it doesn't work better than what you're doing now, then I've lost a customer.

    Can you trust me enough to believe me when I tell you that I am not in business to lose customers?

    Okay then. Let's test it, okay?

    (Then shut up and keep smiling.)

    Consider that when a Madison Avenue Marketer talks about a "million dollar campaign" he's talking about how much it cost.

    When a Direct Marketer talks about a "million dollar" campaign, he's talking about how much it made.

    None of that will convince your friend, of course. But that's understandable, considering his circumstances. Hopefully this helps overcome that kind of objection when you encounter it in a business-owner/client who just doesn't know better (yet).
    Signature

    Fair warning: It's possible I'm arguing with you because I have nothing better to do.
    Join my free copywriting group on Facebook: http://CultOfCopy.com

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1449110].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author dljmktg1
      I will take your postcards over 99% of the emails I receive every day. Some of them are quite amusing.

      By the way, I've seen the get ripped in 4 weeks ads. It doesn't really take that long.

      I once got ripped in 30 minutes. Of course, there was a bottle of Wild Turkey involved.

      Dan
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1449336].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author SantiSantana
        Let them look down at you while you make the money. Good news is a few of them know the truth themselves, and get called outsiders for it.

        I read a book called "The end of marketing as we know it" by Sergio Zyman some time ago (strongly recommended reading for anyone who want to get in business of any sort). He explained how he got in trouble with many sales departments at big companies because he wanted the ads he made to sell, not to win marketing awards.

        If you have ever heard that "marketing is about selling more stuff, to more people, for more money, more often and more efficiently", chances are you heard it form him or from someone quoting him.

        He talks about an anecdote in which he meets with a marketing executive from another company boasting that their new ad got 70% awareness for the client. When he asked how much was sales up, the colleague rushed off to some urgent meeting.

        When you hear that other famous quote by I don´t remember who saying that " I know half of my marketing works and the other half doesn´t, I just don´t know which half" you get a cue of what the market is actually saying.

        BUsiness people want and need to be able to measure results one way or another. Sure the Coca-cola brand is worth more than the assets sustaining it, but only because there is an enormous amount of sales backing it up. It is no good owning a famous brand if it´s not making you money in any way.

        But I digress.

        Direct response marketing is a must for every small business. They cannot afford to pour vast amounts of money into brand awareness and positioning if they ar enot making the sales to pay for it so I tell my offline clients that all their marketing should be direct response until they create a pool of money big enough that they have to either invest it in their branding and positioning or pay more taxes than they should. And of course some marketing firms don´t want to hear any of that.
        Signature

        Writer for hire

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1449385].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Mr. Enthusiastic
        Originally Posted by dljmktg1 View Post

        I once got ripped in 30 minutes. Of course, there was a bottle of Wild Turkey involved.
        I can't wait for your WSO on that one, Dan.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1449416].message }}
      • Originally Posted by dljmktg1 View Post

        I will take your postcards over 99% of the emails I receive every day. Some of them are quite amusing.

        By the way, I've seen the get ripped in 4 weeks ads. It doesn't really take that long.

        I once got ripped in 30 minutes. Of course, there was a bottle of Wild Turkey involved.

        Dan
        You owe me a roll of paper towels, Dan!

        I just spit coffee all over the monitor!

        Michael
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1451213].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
        Originally Posted by dljmktg1 View Post

        By the way, I've seen the get ripped in 4 weeks ads. It doesn't really take that long.

        I once got ripped in 30 minutes. Of course, there was a bottle of Wild Turkey involved.

        Dan
        That's funny.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1451871].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
      Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post


      Ephemeral pursuits like "branding" were largely invented by ad firms to sell to huge companies with money to waste buying a result that can't be measured.

      There's Madison Avenue marketing school right there.

      My mechanic bought into this with no results, but it was legally inferred that a "unmeasurable" result was going to happen to him once he bought in.....it did not.

      A nice , slick system that has no results or measurable results.

      Like " switching to xxx product/service has saved the average client $80,000!

      But the fine print reads: "results may vary, not applicable to all clients, this number is the result of savings projected over 260 years, the average business life of the top 10 businesses in america."

      The 13th Warrior
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1451918].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
        The Gary Halbert/Ted Nicholas types made a killing filling in the gaps and bringing in results that "Madison Avenue" leaves behind.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1451934].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
        Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan View Post

        If a woman says she dances nude for a living she is instantly
        a 'whore' in most peoples mind. No matter if she does not sleep
        with anyone and is truly a good person.
        Anyone that feels superior to a nude dancer or a "whore" needs a reality check-both are simply service providers, and a "whore", or to use the more respectful term "prostitute" can be just as good a person as a nude dancer, a factory worker, a movie producer, or anyone else. One way to look at it is that a prostitute is simply delivering on the false hope the nude dancer offers, or simply: one teases-the other delivers, but the bottom line is they serve a hungry niche. Nobody should blame them that the niche exists.

        All of us that burn fossil fuel are guilty of hastening the destruction of our planet's ability to support life-surely infinitely more morally compromised than taking money for sex or for titilation.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1500851].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Vagabond 007
      Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post

      Consider that when a Madison Avenue Marketer talks about a "million dollar campaign" he's talking about how much it cost.

      When a Direct Marketer talks about a "million dollar" campaign, he's talking about how much it made.
      Haha. Never heard it put like that.


      Originally Posted by ProductCreator View Post

      You've got to remember that there is a huge section of society who see long format sales pages in the usual DM style and immediately close their browser window. I particularly like those few sites that are DM but don't look it!

      Just my 2 cents.
      You mean the section that isn't the target market of the product being sold?

      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      "Madison Avenue" has been syonymous with "the golden age of broadcast advertising" as it pertains to brand marketing.

      But to discount these people as schleps who have no clue is simply foolish.

      We're talking about agencies that to this day, earn more money from a single account than Dan Kennedy has ever earned in his entire lifetime.

      It's just... different.
      I may, perhaps, being taking this out of context, but just because they make a ton of money does not mean they know what they are doing in regards to getting results.

      I fully agree that they are not foolish. But when it comes to getting MEASURABLE results, I think most of us can agree that direct marketers are better at that than "Madison Ave" type marketers.

      It just so happens that clueless business owners think it's best to throw a few million at an ad agency so they can get brand awareness. So they can "get their name out there".

      Then the ad agencies feed their ego's with all of the awards they win. Regardless of how successful (or unsuccessful) the ad was.

      But again, they certainly aren't foolish. They sure know how to extract money from the business owners pockets.

      Either way, this debate could go on for ages. And this is only the tip of the iceberg. I could talk about this topic forever, bit I think it would just be a waste of time.
      Signature
      The Ultimate Sales & Marketing Mind Map (Just updated - now twice as big!) - scott_krech - "Quite possibly one of the BEST WSO's ever."

      www.UltimateMindMap.com


      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1454584].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
        Originally Posted by Vagabond 007 View Post

        ...


        I may, perhaps, being taking this out of context, but just because they make a ton of money does not mean they know what they are doing in regards to getting results.

        I fully agree that they are not foolish. But when it comes to getting MEASURABLE results, I think most of us can agree that direct marketers are better at that than "Madison Ave" type marketers.

        It just so happens that clueless business owners think it's best to throw a few million at an ad agency so they can get brand awareness. So they can "get their name out there".

        Then the ad agencies feed their ego's with all of the awards they win. Regardless of how successful (or unsuccessful) the ad was.

        But again, they certainly aren't foolish. They sure know how to extract money from the business owners pockets.

        Either way, this debate could go on for ages. And this is only the tip of the iceberg. I could talk about this topic forever, bit I think it would just be a waste of time.
        Interesting that you have the view of ad agencies that you do.

        Finish these jingles....


        "Just for the taste of it... ________"

        "I don't wanna' grow up, cause' if I did, I couldn't be a ____________ kid."

        "Yo quiero _______. "


        I could go on and on.

        You make the statement that direct marketers are better at measurable results than traditional agencies.

        I have yet to think of a single direct marketer that has so adeptly injected a product into the fabric of mainstream culture, that it becomes instantly recognizable, and lasts for generations.

        I would hardly call the businesses that hire the agencies that burn the names and images into the psyche of mainstream culture that spans tens or hundreds of millions of people "clueless".

        These are the things that have built billion dollar, multinational empires.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1456287].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Direct marketing, or more precisely, direct response marketing and large scale branding are two entirely different tools for two entirely different jobs.

          Technically, you can fuse two wires to create an electrical connection by twisting them together and hitting them with a hammer until they fuse. But a soldering iron or brazing torch work much better.

          Technically, you can set a screw with a hammer, but a screwdriver works much better.

          Technically, you can dismantle a stadium with hand tools, but some well-placed dynamite is quicker.

          Nike doesn't want Joe Consumer to write out a check for $100 and mail it to Nike in exchange for a pair of shoes. They don't care where Joe buys those shoes, as long as he buys Nikes.

          So Nike uses Madison Avenue-style branding to pound the idea of buying Nikes into Joe's head.

          JimBob's Show Castle doesn't care if you buy Nikes, Converse, New Balance or whatever. They just want you to buy them at JimBob's, and soon enough for JimBob to make payroll.

          So JimBob uses direct response methods to get Joe into his store this weekend - where he sees a whole wall under a giant swoosh and "just does it"...
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1456385].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
            Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

            Nike doesn't want Joe Consumer to write out a check for $100 and mail it to Nike in exchange for a pair of shoes. They don't care where Joe buys those shoes, as long as he buys Nikes.

            So Nike uses Madison Avenue-style branding to pound the idea of buying Nikes into Joe's head.

            JimBob's Shoe Castle doesn't care if you buy Nikes, Converse, New Balance or whatever. They just want you to buy them at JimBob's, and soon enough for JimBob to make payroll.

            So JimBob uses direct response methods to get Joe into his store this weekend - where he sees a whole wall under a giant swoosh and "just does it"...
            Dude, this is exactly what I was trying to say, only you managed it much more eloquently and directly. Have yourself a doff of the hat, and all that.
            Signature

            Fair warning: It's possible I'm arguing with you because I have nothing better to do.
            Join my free copywriting group on Facebook: http://CultOfCopy.com

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1456625].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Vagabond 007
          Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

          Interesting that you have the view of ad agencies that you do.

          Finish these jingles....


          "Just for the taste of it... ________"

          "I don't wanna' grow up, cause' if I did, I couldn't be a ____________ kid."

          "Yo quiero _______. "


          I could go on and on.

          You make the statement that direct marketers are better at measurable results than traditional agencies.

          I have yet to think of a single direct marketer that has so adeptly injected a product into the fabric of mainstream culture, that it becomes instantly recognizable, and lasts for generations.

          I would hardly call the businesses that hire the agencies that burn the names and images into the psyche of mainstream culture that spans tens or hundreds of millions of people "clueless".

          These are the things that have built billion dollar, multinational empires.
          Only one of those jingles I know is the second one.

          Even if I knew all 3, doesn't mean much to me. I'm not going to buy at some store because of their jingle.

          I forget the exact number, but a majority of people don't know the company behind the energizer bunny. They think it's a competitors brand.

          As for the clueless remark, clearly companies like Coca-Cola, McDonald's, etc are not stupid. Perhaps I should have been clearer. I was referring to companies that don't have a multi-million dollar marketing budget (like Coca-Cola) and think that paying money for some fancy ad is going to transform their business. Then when you tell them about more effective advertising, they look at you like you have 2 heads.
          Signature
          The Ultimate Sales & Marketing Mind Map (Just updated - now twice as big!) - scott_krech - "Quite possibly one of the BEST WSO's ever."

          www.UltimateMindMap.com


          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1457304].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
            How about "Mento's, the fresh maker"?

            If its a brand that stupid, don't make you curious or is something you do not want or not interested in, how will that continue to make it money?

            How many of you bought mentos, at least once, out of curiosity?

            Not me, because the commercial was sheer stupidity, same as that other one with the people, after they take the mint, a "sparkle" twinkles on their smiling teeth, with the british chick.

            How bout that Yugo(copyrighted)..., ?,...maybe they should have had Micheal Jordan drive it, then it would be "cool", cause Mike does it.

            Have you got your HAINES?

            The 13th Warrior
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1465019].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
              [QUOTE=The 13th Warrior;1465019]
              How bout that Yugo(copyrighted)..., ?,...maybe they should have had Micheal Jordan drive it, then it would be "cool", cause Mike does it.

              [QUOTE]

              They tried, but even he had a hard time looking cool with his head and knees sticking out of the 3 holes they had to cut in the roof to accomodate him.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1500872].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Money on the Side
    Isn't it crazy that there are no direct marketing classes in traditional colleges (or at least any that I know of), even though it's success has been proven an the success (or failure) of a campaign can be tracked and ROI instantly calculated?

    I guess the best argument for those that scoff at DM is a head to suggest head to head comparison for an ad campaign.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1449371].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Mr. Enthusiastic
      Originally Posted by killercopy View Post

      Isn't it crazy that there are no direct marketing classes in traditional colleges (or at least any that I know of), even though it's success has been proven an the success (or failure) of a campaign can be tracked and ROI instantly calculated?
      I had some marketing and business classes in college. They were 100% useless to me in any aspect of life.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1449414].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    Well, if he doesn't like, no skin off your back, right?

    Just try not to let it get to you.

    Keep doing what your'e doing. Sounds fine to me.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1449383].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    Well, look at it this way...

    He's spending thousands to go to a preppy College on his parent's dime...

    To be "taught" by professors who don't know crap (otherwise they'd be working in DR... I'd bet any money the pay's better).

    In short... he's not the brightest tool in the shed.

    People like that love "branding" because they don't have to prove it works... or have any kind of "results" at all.

    It's the perfect false economy.

    DR scares these people because it can be *tracked*... and then their clients find out they paid for nothing.

    As for the "sleep at night" comment... at least my clients don't have businesses that tank because they spent a fortune on crapping advertising.

    -Dan
    Signature

    Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1449387].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      DR scares these people because it can be *tracked*... and then their clients find out they paid for nothing.
      I haven't scared anyone since several Halloweens ago.
      Signature

      Dan's content is irregularly read by handfuls of people. Join the elite few by reading his blog: dcrBlogs.com, following him on Twitter: dcrTweets.com or reading his fiction: dcrWrites.com but NOT by Clicking Here!

      Dan also writes content for hire, but you can't afford him anyway.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1449398].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
        Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

        I haven't scared anyone since several Halloweens ago.
        Not true. I still have nightmares about that night we spent in Vegas.

        -Dan
        Signature

        Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1449430].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
          Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

          Not true. I still have nightmares about that night we spent in Vegas.
          That was my twin brother. And I don't want to know.
          Signature

          Dan's content is irregularly read by handfuls of people. Join the elite few by reading his blog: dcrBlogs.com, following him on Twitter: dcrTweets.com or reading his fiction: dcrWrites.com but NOT by Clicking Here!

          Dan also writes content for hire, but you can't afford him anyway.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1449436].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Hesaidblissfully
            Direct response marketing is no more or less sleazy than any other type of marketing. The products themselves can be sleazy, but they can also be ethical.

            Would it be sleazy for a Christian magazine to use direct response marketing to get more subscribers?

            Woudl it be sleazy for a charity organization to use direct response marketing to get more people to volunteer to help kids in impoverished countries get clean drinking water?

            Is it sleazy for a band to use direct response marketing to reach their fans?

            Direct resposne marketing is just a TYPE of marketing. The fact that lots of sleazy people use it means nothing. Lots of sleazy people use the telephone too. And beer commercials that imply that drinking a certain beer is going to fill the swimming pool in your yard with supermodels isn't exactly the apex of class and refinement

            In any case, it's not our job to convince anybody that what we do works (aside from potential customers/clients). Let him do what he does, and you do what you do.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1449504].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Mr. Enthusiastic
              Originally Posted by Hesaidblissfully View Post

              Let him do what he does, and you do what you do.
              Amen! This has been a hard lesson for me to learn in life: sometimes, people have all kinds of judgmental nonsense... and it's just nonsense, nothing to do with me, no matter how vociferous they are. My conscience only has to be responsible to keep me honest and not hurtful in any way. Other people's bad attitudes are not hurt I caused, so I don't have any responsibility to try to cure 'em. If they want to be snotty elitists, that's they're problem. Certainly not something I ever asked from them!
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1449841].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author The Oilman
                Thanks everyone.

                I didn't mean to say that I was in a fight with this person. He was just kind of being snobby by showing his disdain for that sort of marketing/advertising. He acted above it.

                Its just sad that so many people think that real corporate, "professional" looking BS is what sells.

                Regular advertising does little selling.

                And I agree with what someone said about the stuff learned in school is pure fluffy BS.

                Great great posts here everyone. Thanks so much.

                Early on some people seemed confused on what I meant by Direct Response. When I said direct response, I just mean the style of marketing -- online and off -- that involves headlines, PS, personalization, direct calls for action, colorful copywriting, etc.

                .......


                Also -- when I wrote the original post -- I was wondering -- is anyone else fearful of showing their direct response work to their freinds . family with fears that people will criticize it because it looks unprofessional / un-madison ave / outside the norm ?
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1449921].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
                  I think it's great that some advertising people look down their noses at what actually sells products and services. It means those of us that use what's proven to work have the opportunity every day to kick their butts in the real world of profits and losses!
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1450242].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Mr. Enthusiastic
                  Originally Posted by The Oilman View Post

                  Thanks everyone.

                  I didn't mean to say that I was in a fight...
                  Annoyed, not in tears. Got it.

                  is anyone else fearful of showing their direct response work
                  I'd just give 'em a little disclaimer. "It's not much to see because my clients sell to people who like to buy from cheap, colorful little sales promotions. The real work is in the market research to figure out what they want to buy, and those spreadsheets aren't very exciting. I'll show it to you if you're really curious but I gotta tell ya, it's not much to look at. Are you sure you're interested?"
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1452044].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Mr. Enthusiastic
    Interesting subject, Oilman.

    I would challenge the kid about his definitions.

    What exactly does he mean by sleazy?
    Is he bothered by the self-defense content of the ad you showed him?
    If so, would he refuse to help make an ad for the Army?

    Your ad is definitely less of an artwork than the typical Madison Ave. production. Does he really believe that it's immoral to make things that are useful and affordable, if they aren't as beautiful as something more expensive and less functional?

    For what reason does he imagine that your work would create a guilty conscience? Who does he imagine is lied to? Who does he imagine is harmed? What moral standard does he imagine is violated?

    You believe that it's totally 100% ethical to help people succeed with their goals, charging them as little up front as practical, and sharing in their success IF you actually help them succeed. How is that any less ethical for clients than the Mad Ave version of a zillion bucks up front, and no guarantees? Is this Nissan toys TV ad, with its award-winning creativity, more ethical because Nissan sales dropped like a stone while that ad ran?

    My guess is that he is just spouting, and will get upset at any attempt at a serious conversation that takes him at his word.

    And since the first of Don Ruiz's Four Agreements is "be impeccable to your word," which of you would then be the unethical one?

    Chris
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1449412].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author SeanIM
    Quit being bothered.........focus on 'next'

    Don't get mad at the dolphins that end up in your tuna net...

    Signature
    Sean Mitchell -
    Online Marketing & Tech Consultant Since 1999
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1449828].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
    Originally Posted by dljmktg1 View Post

    I once got ripped in 30 minutes. Of course, there was a bottle of Wild Turkey involved.
    Back in my first try at college, I once got ripped without even trying. Of course, there was a pan of brownies made by a frat brother involved...

    Originally Posted by SeanIM View Post

    Don't get mad at the dolphins that end up in your tuna net...

    Mmmmmmm...dolphin

    Fun aside...

    Oilman, the fact that an elitist kid at a private university can even study marketing is progress. There was a time in this country when the "quality folks" looked down their noses at anyone who had to engage in filthy commerce.

    What would scare the bejeebers out of me would be if someone like P&G saw the light and threw their ad budget into direct response. They could single-handedly put the USPS back in the black.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1450973].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    Well DM style marketing has measurable results and when you are
    paying Madison Ave type fees you really don't want your results
    to me measurable because you'll have to give an account of why
    you deserve all that money.

    So don't expect Madison Ave to fall in love with DM anytime soon.
    They are more interested in "image" and winning awards not getting
    more money for their clients.

    -Ray Edwards
    Signature
    The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1451156].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author JamesM
    The only self-made millionaire I've ever met was a direct marketer - he floated his company on the LSE then sold up. Now he spends most of his time on his private crewed yacht in the Med!

    While I don't like being on the receiving end myself I'm sometimes inclined to lean towards the old adage of "if you can't beat them"
    Signature

    If this post has been helpful please click the "thanks" button ;-)

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1451388].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
    David Ogilvy worked on Madison Avenue. He was far
    from clueless.

    I know it's convenient to paint Madison Ave. people as
    blithering idiots sucking on the teat of corporate vanity,
    but truth is many of them are very smart and have a
    clue.

    Just making a distinction. If you've ever been in a high-
    end agency I doubt you'd think the people running them
    were stupid or clueless. It's a savage business and the
    owners who can make it work are sharp, and often
    exceptionally good at selling.

    That being said, what's good for Nike is not good for the
    corner shoe-store. The fallacy that breaks many small
    businesses is that their advertising should focus on
    ephemeral stuff like "mind-share" instead of short-term
    results like sales. Yeah, branding as many people understand
    it is a colossal waste of money for most non-colossal businesses,
    but look at Apple computer's prestige positioning and tell
    me that isn't all about effective, Madison Avenue style
    brand strategies.

    There's more to it of course. Read "Rapid Response Advertising"
    by Geoff Ayling and you'll understand where I'm coming from.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1451982].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
      Originally Posted by Loren Woirhaye View Post

      David Ogilvy worked on Madison Avenue. He was far from clueless.

      I know it's convenient to paint Madison Ave. people as blithering idiots sucking on the teat of corporate vanity, but truth is many of them are very smart and have a clue.

      Just making a distinction. If you've ever been in a high-end agency I doubt you'd think the people running them were stupid or clueless. It's a savage business and the owners who can make it work are sharp, and often exceptionally good at selling.

      That being said, what's good for Nike is not good for the corner shoe-store. The fallacy that breaks many small businesses is that their advertising should focus on ephemeral stuff like "mind-share" instead of short-term results like sales. Yeah, branding as many people understand it is a colossal waste of money for most non-colossal businesses, but look at Apple computer's prestige positioning and tell me that isn't all about effective, Madison Avenue style brand strategies.

      There's more to it of course. Read "Rapid Response Advertising" by Geoff Ayling and you'll understand where I'm coming from.
      You make a good point, and one that I was trying to get at, but obviously didn't reach. Modern Madison Avenue advertising giants are in the business of selling a product to a particular customer. They've gotten very good at selling "branding" to big business.

      But all "branding" can ever really do is make people WANT certain things. It WILL NOT sell it to them, or get them in a store, or get them on the phone with their credit card in hand.

      And selling that "want" is just fine if you're at the top of the product chain as the manufacturer and sole provider of the product into the supply and distribution channels.

      Selling the "want" will create demand in the stores, or at least provide familiarity so when people see the item, they will get it and buy.

      This is the trap that smaller businesses fall into because yes, branding works, but not in the same way for such small outlets. Smaller outlets can't be passive because they need to SELL.

      The prospect won't do anything at all even if you're effective at branding. Because all you've done is sell that passive "want". They want to shop at your store. If they ever get around to it.

      You need to SELL and be DIRECT in small business. If the customer can get what you sell somewhere else for cheaper, or closer by, or even just easier - traditional "branding" is NOT the right way to go.

      "You need to get in here right now and buy this. Not anywhere else, but here. And don't waste any time. Do it NOW."

      Note: I really dig what Ben Mack talks about as regards "branding" for small businesses. It's NOT the same as what most people think of as "branding", ie branding is not a logo, etc. What he talks about is VERY powerful and relevant, but it's also not the thing called "branding" that Madison Av. ad agencies sell, or that universities teach how to do.
      Signature

      Fair warning: It's possible I'm arguing with you because I have nothing better to do.
      Join my free copywriting group on Facebook: http://CultOfCopy.com

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1452410].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Collette
        Ignorance is rampant. Most businesses don't understand "marketing", much less "branding". My local Craigslist has tons of ads for "marketing" jobs that are actually "sales" jobs.

        Plus, there are an astonishing number of people who fervently believe that Evil Marketers have supernatural power and abilities, which they use to force their helpless victims to buy stuff they don't want. Entirely against their will, and without their consent, of course. :rolleyes:

        As for branding - far too many people (including far too many ad agencies) think a sharp logo and a snappy tagline are all you need to develop a brand.

        And I mean "develop a brand"... because "branding" is the tangible and the non-tangible essence of your business. Your "brand" consists of everything the consumer sees, hears, says, thinks, imagines, and believes about your business and the people in it.

        That kind of multi-level awareness don't happen overnight. And it shore don't happen just from displaying a logo.

        At its best, branding creates a desire for your product or service because people want to be identified with the values you represent.

        In the meantime, whenever someone refers to Direct Response Marketing as "sleazy marketing", or tells me that they would NEVER, EVER respond to that kind of solicitation, I ask them if they've ever sent a donation after receiving an appeal letter from a charitable organization.

        Or if they've ever put money in the collection plate at church... bought Girl Scout cookies or muffins from a PTA bake sale... purchased anything at a fundraising silent auction... used a coupon at the supermarket... signed up for a gas station card...

        ...All of which use Direct Response Marketing techniques.

        You'd be amazed how quickly that shuts 'em up.:p
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1452543].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
    Originally Posted by The Oilman View Post


    Sadly, I LOVE it with a passion and I love how gimicky, offbeat and cheesy it is..

    Thats one of the biggest peeves I have with advertising.

    Its a double edged sword.

    On one hand , "cheesy, hypee, gimmicky" is what gets your attention.

    It also opens up possibilities that where not previously imagined, especially if you were raised that you either get a good job or get a sba loan, buy a building, go to business school,etc., to get a business.

    There was no other "brick and mortar" type education that strayed from either working until you die or go to business school and get a business loan model, nothing in between.

    The other side of the sword is that "chessyness" is not an education in itself like "$1,000,000 in 24 hours" type stuff, but it is presented as such in both advertisement and product.

    Since you have nothing ( mailorder at the time) to measure it against, except work and old school business, you were out there.

    Gary Halbert is an example of someone that can kind of use that AND provide results of what he advertises, most marketers could not do this, but the ad gets sales, so the model is sound, but how it is implemented and instructed has been very , very poor, which gives it a bad name, unlike Ted Nicolas , Gary Halbert and all those type guys that practice what they sell and preach.

    Th 13th Warrior
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1451986].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
      Originally Posted by Loren Woirhaye View Post


      David Ogilvy worked on Madison Avenue. He was far
      from clueless.

      I know it's convenient to paint Madison Ave. people as
      blithering idiots sucking on the teat of corporate vanity,
      but truth is many of them are very smart and have a
      clue.


      I think the one of the points of using Madison Avenue is that what works for them will not necessarily work for someone who is first starting out.

      They can afford to make "gaping hole" type mistakes and move on.

      Individual marketers have to be more targeted, tested and accurate, a mistake can set them back a while.




      Originally Posted by Loren Woirhaye View Post


      Yeah, branding as many people understand
      it is a colossal waste of money for most non-colossal businesses,
      but look at Apple computer's prestige positioning and tell
      me that isn't all about effective, Madison Avenue style
      brand strategies.


      Branding is only a identifier of trust, products and service.

      If the majority of the time you come out with something that separates you from the rest and delivers close to high percentage bulleyes of what customers want and need, the brand works......like Google.

      If it constantlly brings and delivers what customers want, then a brand is a sign that says, "proven trustworthiness- we have not let you down in the past and will continue to do so, you will not lose if you continue to trust us".

      On the other hand, if your products and services suck, then brand can do the opposite and your brand is a sign post that says "scam-stay away,unreliable, take a gamble."

      Right now, I can't think of a "BRAND" that says just that, "stay far, far away."

      It use to be "MADE IN CHINA/JAPAN" was a type branding that brought laughs and represent everything thats cheap and poorly made.

      Now FORD is an acronym for something thats of poor quality.

      What U.S. company can take away HONDA/TOYOTA customers, the way that they breaks their back to a fault to give customer satisfaction in product and service.

      Who's laughing now?

      The 13th Warrior
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1452053].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Daniel E Taylor
        Originally Posted by The 13th Warrior View Post

        I think the one of the points of using Madison Avenue is that what works for them will not necessarily work for someone who is first starting out.

        They can afford to make "gaping hole" type mistakes and move on.

        Individual marketers have to be more targeted, tested and accurate, a mistake can set them back a while.








        Branding is only a identifier of trust, products and service.

        If the majority of the time you come out with something that separates you from the rest and delivers close to high percentage bulleyes of what customers want and need, the brand works......like Google.

        If it constantlly brings and delivers what customers want, then a brand is a sign that says, "proven trustworthiness- we have not let you down in the past and will continue to do so, you will not lose if you continue to trust us".

        On the other hand, if your products and services suck, then brand can do the opposite and your brand is a sign post that says "scam-stay away,unreliable, take a gamble."

        Right now, I can't think of a "BRAND" that says just that, "stay far, far away."

        It use to be "MADE IN CHINA/JAPAN" was a type branding that brought laughs and represent everything thats cheap and poorly made.

        Now FORD is an acronym for something thats of poor quality.

        What U.S. company can take away HONDA/TOYOTA customers, the way that they breaks their back to a fault to give customer satisfaction in product and service.

        Who's laughing now?

        The 13th Warrior
        There is so much more to branding than that. In fact I'd
        say this was pretty much an off the mark post. Although I know
        you meant well.

        Brand Marketing and Direct Marketing are like apples and oranges.

        Because of the high cost of Brand Marketing most small businesses
        shy away from it.

        Now thanks to the internet and things like youtube, social media galore,
        authority sites, etc...

        Smart business owners are taking advantage of a new style that
        I call hybrid marketing.


        That is where you still focus on raising brand awareness while also
        getting credit card info and making sales instantly.

        The internet has allowed us to do this.

        Oh what great times we live in.

        Daniel
        Signature

        Self Actualization is one's true purpose. Everything
        else is an illusion.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1452110].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author JayPeete
      Hey Oilman,

      Don't even sweat it. You see, people direct negative feelings and comments towards what they don't understand. The average person can't help it and for the most part, they have been conditioned to react that way by the system. Unfortunately, it is easier to be negative than positive.

      You are amongst good people here at the Warrior Forum. Share with us and thrive! The elitists can do a swan dive...
      Signature
      What Misunderstood Traffic Source SUCKS In
      3 Million Visitors Daily and Spits Out
      $560.81 Per Day In Commissions?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1452135].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author BH
    All sorts of people in the world, don't let them affect you....
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1452062].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
      Originally Posted by BH View Post


      All sorts of people in the world, don't let them affect you....
      ???????????????????????????!!!??
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1452094].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    "Madison Avenue" has been syonymous with "the golden age of broadcast advertising" as it pertains to brand marketing.

    But to discount these people as schleps who have no clue is simply foolish.

    We're talking about agencies that to this day, earn more money from a single account than Dan Kennedy has ever earned in his entire lifetime.

    It's just... different.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1454287].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Fabian Tan
    Branding is often about operating for years and years without making a profit, pouring millions into mass media campaigns that no one can tell for sure whether it works. Branding is immeasurable.

    Direct Response Marketing is about getting into a positive ROI as quickly as possible. It's efficient, measurable, and doable for most businesses. And you can do branding with DR as well, just not the mass media, all-or-nothing strategies that can put the average business in the poor house.

    The guy who wants to start his business today and be in profit FAST is likely to fare better with DR than with pouring millions into product development, mass media advertising and branding just to appear to have a big company (but with LOTS of losses and untold risk).

    Getting the majority of folk to believe in DR is like to getting them to believe in MLM - their opinions are fixed in stone, leave them to their devices while the rest of us laugh to the bank in PROFIT. It's THEIR loss. The less competition for us in the know, the better. The average 'marketer' who believes in big branding but turns a cold shoulder to direct response is likely to be a marketing executive stiff working a 9-5. We, on the other hand, are living it up.

    We are ahead of the curve, and will always be because the rest are in love with the mass media and the 'system'.

    Fabian
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1455795].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Vagabond 007
    Great article by Clayton Makepeace that explains this debate VERY well.

    Direct marketing and copywriting : Advertising Schmadvertising! | The Total Package
    Signature
    The Ultimate Sales & Marketing Mind Map (Just updated - now twice as big!) - scott_krech - "Quite possibly one of the BEST WSO's ever."

    www.UltimateMindMap.com


    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1471031].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author The Oilman
      I think the moral of this thread is that there is a time and a place for direct response style marketing, and another time/place for branding / mega advertising.

      They are quite different things.,


      Its just that by default, an amateur marketer tries to LOOK big brand/madison ave, when actually they should be taking more of a direct response route.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1477558].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author VegasVince
    Originally Posted by The Oilman View Post

    I am really BOTHERED by elitist snobs who look down on direct response marketing.

    There is a large chunk of people who hate DM, and it bugs the hell out of me.

    I was just chatting with an elitist kid my age (late 20's) who is going to school to learn marketing/advertising/entepreneurialsm at a private school funded by his parents. Hes learning lots of madison ave, sexy crap that his inexperienced professors are teaching him.

    He is doing a direct-mail drop and I told him to make his postcards tacky and catchy, and copy intensive.

    I then showed him the style of marketing I like: Captain Chris Close Combat Training - Self Defense & Mixed Martial Arts Techniques & Moves, Black Belt & Military Army Training, Street Fighting Tips, Books & DVD (I just heard an interview with this guy with Ryan Deiss -- VERY interesting.)

    He said "you're really into sleazy marketing. That is all fine.. if you can sleep at night.."

    As if I do unethical things and I am some snake oil salesman.

    Now, dont get me wrong, I have questioned my ethics at times. But I see NO unethical things with Direct Response Marketing, as long as its truthful and you deliver a quality product.

    I've found that there are many people like this -- people who think that Direct Marketing is too cheesy and that it doesn't work, and that they'd never buy it, blah blah blah.

    This whole sentiment has made me NOT WILLING to ever show my sites to people I know -- as it seems many people are annoyed my direct response stuff.

    Sadly, I LOVE it with a passion and I love how gimicky, offbeat and cheesy it is..

    Is anyone in the same boat I am in?

    P.S. - Now sites like THIS are unethical: Steve's Ripped Combo - How I Got Ripped In Just 4 Weeks

    Because its a lie. And it doesn't work. Now THAT would keep me up at night.

    A true direct response marketer doesn't care what Mr. and Mrs. Jones thinks.

    He's too busy selling them something.

    xxx Vegas Vince
    Legend.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1478007].message }}

Trending Topics