Why Are Some of the Internet Marketing Coaching "Gurus" Bailing?

207 replies
There is a reason many of the Internet Marketing Coaching "Gurus" are bailing and are actually announcing they will not be selling any more IM products anymore.

If you've not been living in a cave, then you have also noticed this. If these are multi-million dollar businesses, then why quit?

I would love to hear your opinions.
#bailing #coaching #gurus #internet #marketing
  • Profile picture of the author Lance K
    Originally Posted by MarketingSPY View Post

    If you've not been living in a cave, then you have also noticed this.
    I must be living in a cave. Perry Belcher is the only one I've heard of that isn't selling to the "IM" crowd anymore. Who else gave it up?
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Brock
      Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

      I must be living in a cave. Perry Belcher is the only one I've heard of that isn't selling to the "IM" crowd anymore. Who else gave it up?
      Mike Filsaime sent out an email yesterday saying he is ending his guru days to concentrate on his business.

      I don't know if it was just a ploy email or if he was for real about it though...
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      • Profile picture of the author Mr. Enthusiastic
        Originally Posted by Daniel Brock View Post

        Mike Filsaime sent out an email yesterday saying he is ending his guru days to concentrate on his business.

        I don't know if it was just a ploy email or if he was for real about it though...
        In the video, he said he feels more passionate about building software than about doing more teaching. I've never met the man in person, but having talked with other people who shifted focus in their careers, I feel that message was sincere.

        Pretty obvious he wants to go out with a bang, and get people talking about his new technology ventures. Obviously he's succeeding.

        He might not break even on selling off the old courses, but look at how little money he has to spend per highly qualified lead. These will people definitely interested in Internet Marketing, looking to him for advice, and trained in his mindset and techniques (if they actually study the course). He'll be able to follow up with all of those buyers and sell them his new software or online service. Meanwhile, some people might apply what's in the course, become rich, and be great testimonials or partners for him in the future. Pretty good deal all the way around, eh?

        Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author pjlloyd
    Banned
    Can you give us some examples of these "gurus"?

    I monitor a number of marketers and they all seem to be going strong.
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  • Profile picture of the author MyLinkClub
    Then it's probably a good time to get in!
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  • Profile picture of the author Lou Diamond
    Hello,
    there is always the next level in any field of work.
    If you have been doing internet marketing for ten years
    or so and you see the next big thing coming up why not
    shift gears for the better.

    If some choose to give an explanation or make a video take it at face value
    and just wish them good luck.
    Lou Diamond
    Signature

    Something new soon.

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    • Profile picture of the author grandstar
      Originally Posted by Lou Diamond View Post

      Hello,
      there is always the next level in any field of work.
      If you have been doing internet marketing for ten years
      or so and you see the next big thing coming up why not
      shift gears for the better.

      If some choose to give an explanation or make a video take it at face value
      and just wish them good luck.
      Lou Diamond
      Stepping up may mean setting up a billion dollar website to sell to Google! You never know
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      • Profile picture of the author dsiomtw
        Oh, forgot one other thing. I actually disagree with John Reese that it has nothing to do with the new FTC guidelines. While there are easy ways "around" them when it comes to your own product, there aren't easy ways around them when it comes to pimping your friends stuff.

        We all know that all the big gurus have an ongoing agreement to basically endorse whatever any of them creates, and this is where the majority of their sales come from.

        While you can easily sell stuff without using results-specific customer testimonials in your salesletter as John said, the gurus couldn't keep endorsing each others stuff the way they do if they want to be FTC compliant.

        In all of their emails that they send out they would have to end each email with "And yes, I get paid when you buy this product" which would KILL sales compared to what they are used to.

        So this is definitely one more thing that reduces the profitability of being a MMO info product selling "guru"...
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        • Profile picture of the author John_Reese
          Originally Posted by dsiomtw View Post

          Oh, forgot one other thing. I actually disagree with John Reese that it has nothing to do with the new FTC guidelines. While there are easy ways "around" them when it comes to your own product, there aren't easy ways around them when it comes to pimping your friends stuff.

          We all know that all the big gurus have an ongoing agreement to basically endorse whatever any of them creates, and this is where the majority of their sales come from.

          While you can easily sell stuff without using results-specific customer testimonials in your salesletter as John said, the gurus couldn't keep endorsing each others stuff the way they do if they want to be FTC compliant.

          In all of their emails that they send out they would have to end each email with "And yes, I get paid when you buy this product" which would KILL sales compared to what they are used to.

          So this is definitely one more thing that reduces the profitability of being a MMO info product selling "guru"...
          Not the case. I've been disclosing affiliate links for awhile and it hasn't hurt sales. In many cases it produces more because people appreciate the transparency.
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        • Profile picture of the author psresearch
          Originally Posted by dsiomtw View Post


          In all of their emails that they send out they would have to end each email with "And yes, I get paid when you buy this product" which would KILL sales compared to what they are used to.

          So this is definitely one more thing that reduces the profitability of being a MMO info product selling "guru"...
          I don't think we know that it "definitely" reduces profitability. A lot of them were already saying that a long time ago and seemed to do just fine. Plus there's the whole "buy through my link and get this bonus" where obviously they were getting paid.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    Mike Filsime just announced he isnt going to do any more IM information products, hes going to concentrate on technolgy and software solutions like his new twitter application

    staying in IM just changing the emphasis on his product creation
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Yes, I forgot about Howie retiring. And I'm not on Filsame's list anymore, so hadn't heard about him.

      Could be a number of reasons. Speculating won't do much good.

      What did they give for their reasons? I agree, take them at face value. If you don't believe what they tell you, then they probably weren't worthy of your belief in them as a guru.
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      • Profile picture of the author Brad Lindsay
        Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

        Yes, I forgot about Howie retiring. And I'm not on Filsame's list anymore, so hadn't heard about him.

        Could be a number of reasons. Speculating won't do much good.

        What did they give for their reasons? I agree, take them at face value. If you don't believe what they tell you, then they probably weren't worthy of your belief in them as a guru.
        In his video, Mike stated that he will still be doing a lot in the affiliate marketing arena, CPA networks etc, but his main focus will be where his main passion lies which is with technology based sites and services.

        Mike's business already encompasses a number of technology based sites that provides a service to the IM industry. These sites collectively must already be generating a significant amount of revenue. They include: paydotcom.com, payglide.com, affiliatejump.com, tweetglide.com, paypeopleonline.com etc.

        Mike also said he will be continuing to provide content, so his printed monthly color IM magazine marketingdotcom.com (which now also features articles written by other well known and successful marketers), will continue.

        One thing for sure is that Mike really knows his numbers and his turnover is forecast to reach $15m in 2010. So I think it's clear that Mike's business has been shifting for some time. It should come as no great surprise then that he has decided to make this apparent shift in his focus.

        Service based businesses generally provides a recurring revenue stream which is a more stable business model than the typical 'product-creation-launch-sequence' where sales tend to peter out following the big launch.
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        • Profile picture of the author sal64
          Originally Posted by Brad Lindsay View Post

          In his video, Mike stated that he will still be doing a lot in the affiliate marketing arena, CPA networks etc, but his main focus will be where his main passion lies which is with technology based sites and services.

          Mike's business already encompasses a number of technology based sites that provides a service to the IM industry. These sites collectively must already be generating a significant amount of revenue. They include: paydotcom.com, payglide.com, affiliatejump.com, tweetglide.com, paypeopleonline.com etc.

          Mike also said he will be continuing to provide content, so his printed monthly color IM magazine marketingdotcom.com (which now also features articles written by other well known and successful marketers), will continue.

          One thing for sure is that Mike really knows his numbers and his turnover is forecast to reach $15m in 2010. So I think it's clear that Mike's business has been shifting for some time. It should come as no great surprise then that he has decided to make this apparent shift in his focus.

          Service based businesses generally provides a recurring revenue stream which is a more stable business model than the typical 'product-creation-launch-sequence' where sales tend to peter out following the big launch.
          Nail-Hammer-Head!

          Mike is a very clever business man. And there's a massive lesson in his approach for anyone who cares to read between the lines...

          Create a product that people cannot live without so you get recurring revenue. Audio Generator is one such product. You cancel and your business shuts down.

          Look Mike's a great guy... sometimes too great for his own good. I know of no other person who takes his customers out for dinner (as long as it's pizza), and I recall him taking a bunch of us to dinner before his 7 figure event in Long Island.

          When I first met him at an event, he sat down with me for over an hour and helped me brainstorm setting up a website with his BFM script. And not many will do that for you.

          On the other hand there are many who's love and devotion for you falls off a cliff as soon as they get your credit card number. It's a fact of IM life.
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  • Profile picture of the author JustVisiting
    I don't blame them for quitting.

    Must be pretty soul-destroying dealing with customers who expect everything to be handed to them on a plate for $29 - $67.

    And then 20% - 40% demand their money back after 2 minutes to 60 days of purchase.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Gatica
      I have my own theory(ies) on why this is happening, but I think I may save it for a blog post. But if you look at what is happening with the current ftc changes that should be a BIG clue.

      Jeremy
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    • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
      Originally Posted by JustVisiting View Post

      I don't blame them for quitting.

      Must be pretty soul-destroying dealing with customers who expect everything to be handed to them on a plate for $29 - $67.

      And then 20% - 40% demand their money back after 2 minutes to 60 days of purchase.
      Gee, I feel sorry for the g*rus who have a 20-40% return rate, but still manage to pull in 5 figures in a few days, or a high 5, or even a 6 figure income per month (if they're telling the truth). Their souls have to be worth at least 7 figures.

      Seriously though, I wouldn't want to take marketing lessons from anybody with a 20-40% return rate, or that doesn't know enough to outsource most of their customer service chores (once they're making enough money). In fact I doubt any real g*ru has that kind of return rate, unless you call anyone that launches a few crappy WSOs, a "g*ru".

      I realize some low level IM info-marketers that wish they were g*rus like to whine about refunds, but their high return rate probably has more to do with bloated promises and shoddy products than "serial refunders".

      It's ridiculous to talk about what a "soul destroying" life it is for the people who've achieved what the rest of us are working towards. How compelling is your goal, if you're telling yourself the achievement of it is "soul-destroying"!? (I'm assuming you share the goal of most of us, to make lots of moola!) Even if you aren't in the "make money online" niche, high mainenance customers and returns will be a challenge you must deal with in just about any field.

      Be truthful in your salescopy. Consistently over-deliver, and work on creating a great relationship with your list. Bond with them; make them raving fans, and your return rate won't be that bad.

      Think about it this way: let's say you had no written guarantee, and you sold 100 physical courses a month, with a 5% return rate, in spite of the lack of a stated guarantee. (Every product has the implied guarantee to do what it's supposed to anyway). Then you read Jay Abraham saying that you can astronomically increase your conversions with a killer risk-reversal, so you add that strategy.

      Let's say it increases your sales by 50%, but increases your return rate by 100%. That means you're selling 150 courses, and having 15 come back, rather than selling 100 with 5 coming back. I don't know about you, but I'd happily eat the hard cost to deliver 15 products, even if I paid postage both ways for a net gain of 40 sales after refunds. If your profits aren't way up, you need to find a different fulfillment company!

      Or consider this: How big a problem do you think returns are for Jay Abraham, or Frank Kern? They have no time to complain about their customers; they're too busy making money, and delivering fantastic value to their lists. And they don't sit around re-packing their own products. They also don't just put out $29-67 products, although they do give a lot of value for little or nothing to create a fantastic relationship with their lists.

      Once they've delivered great value for little or nothing, it's no problem getting a chunk of the list to fork over 4 figures, or even 5, for a more intensive involvement, like Jay's coaching, or a big, comprehensive, multimedia course like Mass Control, or one of Jay's 5 figure live events.

      So what if a small percent of your gross goes out to refunds? If you're making money hand over fist, and have to pay out a little of it for normal expenses like refunds, what's the problem? If your soul hurts, hop in the Ferrari, cruise down to the yaht club and have a nice drink; it will be restored in no time.
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      • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
        Originally Posted by Greg guitar View Post

        Seriously though, I wouldn't want to take marketing lessons from anybody with a 20-40% return rate, or that doesn't know enough to outsource most of their customer service chores (once they're making enough money). In fact I doubt any real g*ru has that kind of return rate, unless you call anyone that launches a few crappy WSOs, a "g*ru".
        in the offline world if your not getting cancellations and refunds your liable to get fired...

        Every sales manager worth his salt will look to see if your pushing hard enough to talk people into buying even if they really dont want it, need it or afford it. And if your not hes liable to let you go for a salesman that will sell hard.

        in the sales world, the rule is the salesman sell HARD (thats there job)

        And the complaints department handle the complainers...

        Why should online be different?
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        • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
          Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

          in the offline world if your not getting cancellations and refunds your liable to get fired...

          Every sales manager worth his salt will look to see if your pushing hard enough to talk people into buying even if they really dont want it, need it or afford it. And if your not hes liable to let you go for a salesman that will sell hard.

          in the sales world, the rule is the salesman sell HARD (thats there job)

          And the complaints department handle the complainers...

          Why should online be different?
          I'm much happier making a big ol' chunk of bank, selling to people who actually want the stuff I'm selling..

          No pushing required

          As a sidenote, why the defensive stance on this topic, Robert?....

          Personally, I couldn't care less either way about the topic being discussed.

          Just found it amusing how you resorted to name calling in your earlier post, and in this post you're comparing business owners to salesmen (which we both know is a laughable comparison), in order to defend whoever is being talked about...

          Peace

          Jay



          .


          "Teacher likes Apples, big green ones!"
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          Bare Murkage.........

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          • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
            This thread has gone on for a couple of days and 79 posts, and I finally figured out what's been nagging at me...

            Re: Why Are Some of the Internet Marketing Coaching "Gurus" Bailing?
            It's the word "bailing", like any of those guys owe us something because they sold some very popular, big ticket programs. And now they're abandoning us poor little guys.

            If one of them vanished in the middle of the night without delivering on what was promised, I might buy "bailing", but moving on to something else is different.

            If a ballplayer retires to start other businesses, do we say he's bailing on his team? (A few fans might, at that...)

            If an entertainer decides to 'pursue other interests', do we say they bailed on their fans? (Again, discounting a few psycho fans...)

            I say, give 'em a break, make your own pile, and join them if you so desire...
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            • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
              Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

              This thread has gone on for a couple of days and 79 posts, and I finally figured out what's been nagging at me...



              It's the word "bailing", like any of those guys owe us something because they sold some very popular, big ticket programs. And now they're abandoning us poor little guys.

              If one of them vanished in the middle of the night without delivering on what was promised, I might buy "bailing", but moving on to something else is different.

              If a ballplayer retires to start other businesses, do we say he's bailing on his team? (A few fans might, at that...)

              If an entertainer decides to 'pursue other interests', do we say they bailed on their fans? (Again, discounting a few psycho fans...)

              I say, give 'em a break, make your own pile, and join them if you so desire...

              There has indeed been a massive shift in the "how to market using the internet" sector.

              It's flooded.

              Like anything else, when a market reaches "main street", the prices come down, the competition goes up, the profit gets tighter.

              The barriers to market entry are slim to none now, and the market is flooded with absolute crap churned out by every laid off Tom, Dick, and Harry wannabe WSO sniper looking for a quick bang and out.
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              • Profile picture of the author sal64
                Blunt yet very succinct words.

                I think I'm geting a man-crush on you LOL.

                Keep it real.

                Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                There has indeed been a massive shift in the "how to market using the internet" sector.

                It's flooded.

                Like anything else, when a market reaches "main street", the prices come down, the competition goes up, the profit gets tighter.

                The barriers to market entry are slim to none now, and the market is flooded with absolute crap churned out by every laid off Tom, Dick, and Harry wannabe WSO sniper looking for a quick bang and out.
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          • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
            Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

            I'm much happier making a big ol' chunk of bank, selling to people who actually want the stuff I'm selling..

            No pushing required

            As a sidenote, why the defensive stance on this topic, Robert?....

            Personally, I couldn't care less either way about the topic being discussed.

            Just found it amusing how you resorted to name calling in your earlier post, and in this post you're comparing business owners to salesmen (which we both know is a laughable comparison), in order to defend whoever is being talked about...

            Peace

            Jay



            .


            "Teacher likes Apples, big green ones!"
            no defensive motives here,, mike can look after himself

            my reason for posting that was that its true... Its business... its double standards

            The comment was about not taking advice from people with a 20% return rate, actually that shows they know how to market, and market agressivly, the exact person you should be listening too

            Wether you decide to use all they tell you is a personal choice

            I also dont recall any post of mine that resorted to name calling, and businessmen are sales people, business owners go out and sell their company all the time

            im educating people on business facts your the one being defensive

            and i made it a question

            why should online be different...

            So we could expand the discusson, its a legitimate question

            Robert
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            • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
              Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

              I also dont recall any post of mine that resorted to name calling,
              Ummm.. and I quote:

              your a sad bunch of people...
              ^^ Calling the people in this thread "sad" is a little defensive, name-calling, no?

              and businessmen are sales people, business owners go out and sell their company all the time
              Ok, Robert... if you have to be "right" we can change the definition of words to suit your taste do let us know when you've finished with them so we can revert back to socially accepted definitions for regular discussions, please.

              im educating people on business facts
              That's debatable, let's we say you're sharing your educated opinion.. the "facts" you shared above are questionable to say the least.

              your the one being defensive
              [chuckles] we'll have this word re-defined to suit your taste, too...

              Defensive about what, sir?... I asked you a question, and clearly stated I have no real interest in the topic being discussed, previous to our little exchange here.

              Peace

              Jay
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              Bare Murkage.........

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            • Profile picture of the author Hesaidblissfully
              Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

              The comment was about not taking advice from people with a 20% return rate, actually that shows they know how to market, and market agressivly
              Not necessarily. It could mean they have a crappy product.

              By the above logic, would a 30% refund rate mean they're even better marketers?

              What about a 40% refund rate?

              I understand the point you're trying to make that some people choose to use a hard sell approach and that can lead to upset customers and refunds, and that those individuals just see it as an expense of doing business. But, as you mentioned in your post, whether or not someone chooses to use a hard sell or a soft sell approach in their business is up to the business owner. Neither approach is inherently right or wrong. A debate could be had about which approach is more profitable, but I don't have the data here to support one school of thought or the other.

              In any case, it's a mistake to assume that high refund rate = good marketing, when high refund rate could just as easily = poor quality product, or exaggerated claims claims about what the product does. You could very well be right in your assumption as it applies to a specific product, but there's no way of proving it without asking the customers themselves why they're asking for refunds.
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        • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
          Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

          in the offline world if your not getting cancellations and refunds your liable to get fired...

          Every sales manager worth his salt will look to see if your pushing hard enough to talk people into buying even if they really dont want it, need it or afford it. And if your not hes liable to let you go for a salesman that will sell hard.

          in the sales world, the rule is the salesman sell HARD (thats there job)

          And the complaints department handle the complainers...

          Why should online be different?
          That is a cynical, overbroad generalization (read-inaccurate) of marketing in the offline world. Many in the offline world as well as online are quite ethical and looking to take good care of their clients (not customers-Jay Abraham's distinction), and want to serve their best interests. Businesses often thrive on word of mouth, lifetime value of long term relationships with their buyers, and referrals. You can't do well in those arenas by bullying people into buying things you know they shouldn't be buying. Granted there are bully companies (timeshare sales is notorious) that do well, but they are the exception, not the norm.

          A sleazy car salesman (I knew a dealership that would do anything, including remove spark plug wires, or throw the customers' keys on the roof to prevent their escape), may get some high-stress single sales, but a great car salesman sells to the same people over and over again. The number 1 car salesman in the world wrote a book in which he warned against making full price sales to the naive customer, because your reputation suffers when their friends clue them in to what a crap deal you gave them.

          Are you seriously suggesting that return rates from disgruntled customers in the 20-40% range is the norm in the offline world? Many businesses would go broke from handling that; their margins aren't big enough, to say nothing of the crappy reputation such a return rate would mean. That is patently absurd.
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          • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
            Originally Posted by Greg guitar View Post

            That is a cynical, overbroad generalization (read-inaccurate) of marketing in the offline world. Many in the offline world as well as online are quite ethical and looking to take good care of their clients (not customers-Jay Abraham's distinction), and want to serve their best interests. Businesses often thrive on word of mouth, lifetime value of long term relationships with their buyers, and referrals. You can't do well in those arenas by bullying people into buying things you know they shouldn't be buying. Granted there are bully companies (timeshare sales is notorious) that do well, but they are the exception, not the norm.

            A sleazy car salesman (I knew a dealership that would do anything, including remove spark plug wires, or throw the customers' keys on the roof to prevent their escape), may get some high-stress single sales, but a great car salesman sells to the same people over and over again. The number 1 car salesman in the world wrote a book in which he warned against making full price sales to the naive customer, because your reputation suffers when their friends clue them in to what a crap deal you gave them.

            Are you seriously suggesting that return rates from disgruntled customers in the 20-40% range is the norm in the offline world? Many businesses would go broke from handling that; their margins aren't big enough, to say nothing of the crappy reputation such a return rate would mean. That is patently absurd.
            ok this subject should be in a different discussion, because its not related to the original question.

            Just something that was said, which I thought needed a comment.

            First thing is i spent a whole 15 years as a salesman offline, I know my statement to be true 100%
            had many a discussion with my supervisors about pushing harder to get more sales even if some of them cancelled or refunded.

            Hyperthetical scenario......


            100 people in a room, I have a product to sell them

            11 people are a perfect fit for the product, they have the money, desire and the knowledge to use the product effectively its exactly what they need

            10 more have the money, but really dont need it...They just like shiny new things

            5 more cant afford it even if its what they need, will probably never use it, or understand how to use it.

            With a (soft sell) designed to sell it to those who really need it i make 11 sales no refunds

            Pushing hard all 10 of the ones who have the money but dont really need it also purchase

            And 2 of the ones who cant afford it also buy because I pushed hard to make the sale

            After one week one of the ones who couldnt afford it realises they really shouldnt have bought it and ask for a refund

            also 5 of the (have the money but dont need it) group also refund

            In total thats a 20% refund rate... but i made 6 sales i wouldnt have done if i had stuck to the soft sell method.

            Busineess dont go out of business on 20% refund rates, if they sell their products correctly they make money they wouldnt have made if they had soft peddalled the sales process

            Robert
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            • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
              Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

              ok this subject should be in a different discussion, because its not related to the original question.

              Just something that was said, which I thought needed a comment.

              First thing is i spent a whole 15 years as a salesman offline, I know my statement to be true 100%
              had many a discussion with my supervisors about pushing harder to get more sales even if some of them cancelled or refunded.

              Hyperthetical scenario......


              100 people in a room, I have a product to sell them

              11 people are a perfect fit for the product, they have the money, desire and the knowledge to use the product effectively its exactly what they need

              10 more have the money, but really dont need it...They just like shiny new things

              5 more cant afford it even if its what they need, will probably never use it, or understand how to use it.

              With a (soft sell) designed to sell it to those who really need it i make 11 sales no refunds

              Pushing hard all 10 of the ones who have the money but dont really need it also purchase

              And 2 of the ones who cant afford it also buy because I pushed hard to make the sale

              After one week one of the ones who couldnt afford it realises they really shouldnt have bought it and ask for a refund

              also 5 of the (have the money but dont need it) group also refund

              In total thats a 20% refund rate... but i made 6 sales i wouldnt have done if i had stuck to the soft sell method.

              Busineess dont go out of business on 20% refund rates, if they sell their products correctly they make money they wouldnt have made if they had soft peddalled the sales process

              Robert
              Spoken like a true Herb Tarleck.

              Hard sales is pretty antiquated and dying, especially in B2B. It might work in the timeshare sales or mortgage broker office, or maybe the used car lot, but not when you're selling composite materials to an aerospace engineering firm that has four billion dollar clients, wherein losing 20% of their sales would bankrupt the company.

              I might suggest exploring a more consultative approach, where you build deeper relationships with a more qualified prospect than playing the random, drive-by shooting sales that results in administrative waste of refunding and risks the reputation of the company over the clear issue of selling to unqualified prospects that will not result in a deeper, longer-term relationship.

              Neil Rackham - Spin Selling mighe be a good read for starters.
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              • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
                Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                but not when you're selling composite materials to an aerospace engineering firm that has four billion dollar clients, wherein losing 20% of their sales would bankrupt the company.
                even here 6 extra sales they wouldnt have got if they didnt sell hard would more than make up for those that refunded...

                6 extra multi million sales, that they wouldnt have got if they soft peddled

                note from sales department to CEO...

                We can do 10 multi million sales and no cancellations/refunds.... OR
                we can do 20 multi million dollar sales and have 5 cancellations/refunds

                You choose please Mr CEO were not sure
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                • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                  Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

                  even here 6 extra sales they wouldnt have got if they didnt sell hard would more than make up for those that refunded...
                  Robert, I'm going to be blunt on this.

                  You have clearly never negotiated eight-figure contracts.

                  At those levels, it's not about the money anymore, and it's not about the sale. The cash is almost irrelevant. It's an accounting detail.

                  What matters is that the number of clients at that level, in your industry, who need what you provide is near zero... and they're not exactly springing up overnight.
                  Signature
                  "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                    Robert, I'm going to be blunt on this.

                    You have clearly never negotiated eight-figure contracts.

                    At those levels, it's not about the money anymore, and it's not about the sale. The cash is almost irrelevant. It's an accounting detail.

                    What matters is that the number of clients at that level, in your industry, who need what you provide is near zero... and they're not exactly springing up overnight.

                    Exactly.

                    You do NOT sell strategic IT infrastructure contracts or huge material supply chains like some old hat Joe Girard "tell em' a joke and slap their back" guffawing idiot.

                    Tom Hopkins 1980s-era witty retort comebacks and "what would you like Mr. CEO" bull**** is the stuff that some old Baby Boomer overdue for retirement might throw out there because it worked for him in 1972.

                    But in today's era of trust agency and consultative selling, Salesman Puddy clearly has never worked in any serious B2B sales capacity with any product level that requires any kind of complex sale structure with more than a single decisionmaker.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
                    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                    Robert, I'm going to be blunt on this.

                    You have clearly never negotiated eight-figure contracts.

                    At those levels, it's not about the money anymore, and it's not about the sale. The cash is almost irrelevant. It's an accounting detail.

                    What matters is that the number of clients at that level, in your industry, who need what you provide is near zero... and they're not exactly springing up overnight.
                    Your right of course... I allowed my debating fervour to over run the point

                    My response to that post should have been "how did we make the jump from selling information products to the aerospace industry"

                    They are different entities.

                    To those saying i lose customer satisfaction on those i push into buying that dont really need it, is this...

                    There is no customer dissatisfaction. the response from me is

                    No problem we thank you for trying out our product, here is your refund as requested. And here is a free gift you can download as a way to further thank you for trying our product.

                    I get nothing but good vibes from that response

                    Robert
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                    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

                      To those saying i lose customer satisfaction on those i push into buying that dont really need it, is this...

                      There is no customer dissatisfaction. the response from me is

                      No problem we thank you for trying out our product, here is your refund as requested. And here is a free gift you can download as a way to further thank you for trying our product.

                      I get nothing but good vibes from that response

                      Robert
                      That's great. My point was that selling hard could backfire on those that don't treat customer support/refund requests promptly and courteously. It seems that you do. So as you say, it shouldn't be a problem.
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                      ~ Zig Ziglar
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                    • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

                      Your right of course... I allowed my debating fervour to over run the point

                      My response to that post should have been "how did we make the jump from selling information products to the aerospace industry"

                      They are different entities.

                      To those saying i lose customer satisfaction on those i push into buying that dont really need it, is this...

                      There is no customer dissatisfaction. the response from me is

                      No problem we thank you for trying out our product, here is your refund as requested. And here is a free gift you can download as a way to further thank you for trying our product.

                      I get nothing but good vibes from that response

                      Robert


                      I brought up the complex sale as a contrast to demonstrate that not all sales techniques or approaches are relevant or effective across the board like some kind of gospel.
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                    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

                      My response to that post should have been "how did we make the jump from selling information products to the aerospace industry"

                      They are different entities.
                      My major assertion is that the same general business methods that work on the eight-figure level will work on the four-figure level, but the converse does not apply. You can spend a lot of time learning to sell a four-figure product, and when you move on to five- and six-figure products... you have to start over. It's like a pyramid; lots of stuff works down at the bottom, but as you climb, there are fewer and fewer things that work.
                      Signature
                      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                      • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
                        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                        My major assertion is that the same general business methods that work on the eight-figure level will work on the four-figure level, but the converse does not apply. You can spend a lot of time learning to sell a four-figure product, and when you move on to five- and six-figure products... you have to start over. It's like a pyramid; lots of stuff works down at the bottom, but as you climb, there are fewer and fewer things that work.
                        There is one fact the same where ever you go... give a salesman worth his salt a target, and he will push as hard as he needs to hit that target. Even if that causes someone else in the process some discomfort.

                        The skill is to make sure the bottom line always pays more than the discomfort
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                        • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                          Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

                          There is one fact the same where ever you go... give a salesman worth his salt a target, and he will push as hard as he needs to hit that target. Even if that causes someone else in the process some discomfort.

                          The skill is to make sure the bottom line always pays more than the discomfort

                          There's a reason that a kid in a cell phone kiosk in a shopping mall won't instantly be successful when he's dropped into the major account seat at an IT infrastructure company.
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                • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
                  Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

                  even here 6 extra sales they wouldnt have got if they didnt sell hard would more than make up for those that refunded...

                  6 extra multi million sales, that they wouldnt have got if they soft peddled

                  note from sales department to CEO...

                  We can do 10 multi million sales and no cancellations/refunds.... OR
                  we can do 20 multi million dollar sales and have 5 cancellations/refunds

                  You choose please Mr CEO were not sure
                  Sounds simple enough, but that's because it's not based in reality. In reality you would have to know how much of those multi-mil sales was profit, and what the costs involved in refunds actually are. I think your logic is based on the premise that a refund simply leaves you in the position you'd be in had you not made the sale. That isn't always the case, and in the case of the very big ticket customers in the example you were quoting, a single cancelled contract could mean going out of business.

                  Even in the everyday world of retail stores, a high rate of refunds could be deadly if they mean angry customers. Your original point about the sales manager that fires people for not having enough returns, points to the reason people have a low opinion of the sales profession. They are right to have contempt for a salesperson that cares nothing for the welfare of the client, and just pushes for the commission no matter what.

                  The most important factor in making any sale is having a killer offer, regardless how aggressive the sales force is. If your offer is good enough you won't have 20-40% refunds even with jerkwads pushing the sale (which isn't needed anyway). In other words, provide real value and you won't get the ridiculous return rates you seem to think are acceptable or even desirable. Once people get their hands on something great, most will hang onto it-a lot more than 60%.
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            • Profile picture of the author Lance K
              Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

              ok this subject should be in a different discussion, because its not related to the original question.

              Just something that was said, which I thought needed a comment.

              First thing is i spent a whole 15 years as a salesman offline, I know my statement to be true 100%
              had many a discussion with my supervisors about pushing harder to get more sales even if some of them cancelled or refunded.

              Hyperthetical scenario......


              100 people in a room, I have a product to sell them

              11 people are a perfect fit for the product, they have the money, desire and the knowledge to use the product effectively its exactly what they need

              10 more have the money, but really dont need it...They just like shiny new things

              5 more cant afford it even if its what they need, will probably never use it, or understand how to use it.

              With a (soft sell) designed to sell it to those who really need it i make 11 sales no refunds

              Pushing hard all 10 of the ones who have the money but dont really need it also purchase

              And 2 of the ones who cant afford it also buy because I pushed hard to make the sale

              After one week one of the ones who couldnt afford it realises they really shouldnt have bought it and ask for a refund

              also 5 of the (have the money but dont need it) group also refund

              In total thats a 20% refund rate... but i made 6 sales i wouldnt have done if i had stuck to the soft sell method.

              Busineess dont go out of business on 20% refund rates, if they sell their products correctly they make money they wouldnt have made if they had soft peddalled the sales process

              Robert
              I agree with what you're saying to a degree. But there is a difference between 20% "buyer's remorse" refunds and 20% "unhappy customer" refunds. If those 20% share their experience with others, that could impact your ability to make sales in the future. And if you're not careful with your customer support when dealing with the "buyer's remorse" refunders, they'll quickly turn into "unhappy customer" refunders.
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            • Profile picture of the author 1960Texan
              Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

              ok this subject should be in a different discussion, because its not related to the original question.

              Just something that was said, which I thought needed a comment.

              First thing is i spent a whole 15 years as a salesman offline, I know my statement to be true 100%
              had many a discussion with my supervisors about pushing harder to get more sales even if some of them cancelled or refunded.

              Hyperthetical scenario......


              100 people in a room, I have a product to sell them

              11 people are a perfect fit for the product, they have the money, desire and the knowledge to use the product effectively its exactly what they need

              10 more have the money, but really dont need it...They just like shiny new things

              5 more cant afford it even if its what they need, will probably never use it, or understand how to use it.

              With a (soft sell) designed to sell it to those who really need it i make 11 sales no refunds

              Pushing hard all 10 of the ones who have the money but dont really need it also purchase

              And 2 of the ones who cant afford it also buy because I pushed hard to make the sale

              After one week one of the ones who couldnt afford it realises they really shouldnt have bought it and ask for a refund

              also 5 of the (have the money but dont need it) group also refund

              In total thats a 20% refund rate... but i made 6 sales i wouldnt have done if i had stuck to the soft sell method.

              Busineess dont go out of business on 20% refund rates, if they sell their products correctly they make money they wouldnt have made if they had soft peddalled the sales process

              Robert
              The question you don't seem to be asking yourself is this:

              How is your time best utilized? Finding new clients that will be happy with the service or product you provide, or refunding the ones you bulldozed into getting something they ultimately didn't want or need?

              Will
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by JustVisiting View Post

      I don't blame them for quitting.

      Must be pretty soul-destroying dealing with customers who expect everything to be handed to them on a plate for $29 - $67.

      And then 20% - 40% demand their money back after 2 minutes to 60 days of purchase.
      and it must be pretty soul-destroying to continue to hype their products as the end all and be all to Internet Marketing and having the noobs actually believe that hype and then ask for a refund when the hype is not delivered ... and from what I've seen, their products are a lot more than a mere $29.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        and it must be pretty soul-destroying to continue to hype their products as the end all and be all to Internet Marketing and having the noobs actually believe that hype and then ask for a refund when the hype is not delivered ... and from what I've seen, their products are a lot more than a mere $29.
        It's responses like that which are driving people away from the teaching side of Internet Marketing.

        In case anyone is wondering, those things that Gurus and non-gurus use to sell their products are called "sales letters" - Their function is to get you to buy the product by putting it in the best possible light.

        People in the market in general are too damn jaded. They act like people FORCE them to buy the products. When in reality, the buyer actually has to pull out their credit card or log into paypal to complete the purchase. NOONE forces anyone to buy their stuff....It's impossible.

        For the record, I've read very few IM products that didn't do what they said they would if you applied a little work and creativity to them.

        Hell, blogging to the bank was probably responsible for my first 1K online, yet you rarely see good reviews for it. Rather than sticking something out, most people will jump from thing to thing to thing, right? Blah blah blah

        Why can some people pick up a product and make bank with it while others just move onto the next one?

        Survey says: There is no one-size-fits-all solution.

        Is there anyone that has not figured that out yet?

        By the time people get done running good people from the IM market that sell products that are genuinely good, you will be left with a bunch of wannabees that are rewriting PDF's from last year and selling them as if they are their own...actually already a good amount of this going on.

        Stop being so jaded and take responsibility for the things YOU DECIDE TO BUY.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Last week when this thread began I said

          If you do exactly the same thing in IM year after year - working hard to produce new "money making" ideas and products - at some point it feels just like a job. Time to move on to something else.
          As John Reese said in his post - the nature of an entrepreneur is to try new things. The perception is that everyone working online is an entrepreneur - but they aren't. Many are happy finding a niche that works for them (producing income) and staying in that niche. The true entrepreneurs will always be looking for new challenges.

          Roger mentioned the IM market has matured but though the marketplace has matured I think many people entering the market now are far less mature than a few years ago. That may be due to age, growing global net access or simply because the economy has driven new people online that would not have been interested in IM previously.

          kay
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        • Profile picture of the author Sandor Verebi
          Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

          .... Stop being so jaded and take responsibility for the things YOU DECIDE TO BUY.
          Jeremy, you are so right. But ... as you also may experience that ... enough wisdom is not at everybody's disposal to let him to recognise these.

          Cheers,

          Sandor
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  • Profile picture of the author rapidscc
    Yups you're right I too have recently encountered about three IM "old timers" saying they'll be focusing on other things..

    Honestly, I noticed that the trend started before December 1. In fact I even saw one video where the IM "old timer" said that he is bailing out due to the new FTC guidelines...

    He said he had no way to declare the average result that people would get from his product because thousands purchased it, and so was selling it one last time and then take it out of the market as he focus on other things.

    I just forgot the name

    Omar
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  • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
    Banned
    Frank Kern stopped teaching internet marketing about 4 years ago. Ed Dale too. They said something like "we don't teach internet marketing anymore, but hey, why don't you buy our newest internet marketing course even though we just told we don't teach internet marketing anymore" lol.

    Mike Filsaime sent out an email yesterday saying he is ending his guru days to concentrate on his business.
    Being a "guru" is his business.

    Yes, I forgot about Howie retiring.
    Apparently, so did Howie.
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    • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
      Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

      Apparently, so did Howie.
      LMAO..... I was thinking the exact same thing...

      Promo mail, two days after and it still continues after he "retired".

      Back to the point of the OP... I don't blame anyone for gettin' out of this niche, it has been a much easier ride since I shifted my focus back to regular niche marketing...

      I love helping people in this niche, but the headache of selling to this niche isn't always worth it.

      Peace

      Jay
      Signature

      Bare Murkage.........

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      • Profile picture of the author Lance K
        Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

        LMAO..... I was thinking the exact same thing...

        Promo mail, two days after and it still continues after he "retired".
        Haha...I unsubscribed from Howie's list about the time he announced his "retirement" so I haven't heard any more out of him. Wonder if he's getting a Brett Favre jersey for Christmas?
        Signature
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        ~ Zig Ziglar
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        • Profile picture of the author molsted
          Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

          Haha...I unsubscribed from Howie's list about the time he announced his "retirement" so I haven't heard any more out of him. Wonder if he's getting a Brett Favre jersey for Christmas?

          Hi.

          Howie is still emailing me JV updates once or twice a day so he is still going strong it seems. Maybe he got tired of releasing and re-releasing one new product every 14. days *lol*
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      • Profile picture of the author psresearch
        Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

        LMAO..... I was thinking the exact same thing...

        Promo mail, two days after and it still continues after he "retired".

        Back to the point of the OP... I don't blame anyone for gettin' out of this niche, it has been a much easier ride since I shifted my focus back to regular niche marketing...

        I love helping people in this niche, but the headache of selling to this niche isn't always worth it.

        Peace

        Jay
        In all fairness, Howie did say he didn't know how long he was going to be retiring for.

        Maybe he just meant he was "retiring" to the living room to watch some T.V.
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        • Profile picture of the author psresearch
          Originally Posted by Steve Porcaro View Post

          I find it interesting that they have to announce they are retiring!
          Yeh, they should just stop sending emails and people would start a buzz about "whatever happened to so-and-so" and then?...?
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  • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
    Maybe a few of them are sick of being bashed and whined about all over the net.

    Frankly, for some of them, I wouldn't blame them if I had to take the kind of crap that they take.

    I know there is one that people call a guru and he pops in here once in a while. In over two years, every single thread I've ever seen him make ends up with several people accusing them of just about everything under the sun. And then there are those who wonder why some of the big names don't frequent the forum

    Tina
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    • Profile picture of the author Keith Boisvert
      It has been stated here numerous times that the "IM niche" is very small in comparison to other avenues of income and niches.

      If I had reached my peak in IM, I would be looking for ways to expand into other non IM niches using my IM talents.


      Keith
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      • Profile picture of the author KenJ
        Now I just thought it was a tactic for a sales pitch.
        I didn't read the details because of this. I certainly not going to try and fill their shoes.
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    • Profile picture of the author J Bold
      Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

      Maybe a few of them are sick of being bashed and whined about all over the net.

      Frankly, for some of them, I wouldn't blame them if I had to take the kind of crap that they take.

      I know there is one that people call a guru and he pops in here once in a while. In over two years, every single thread I've ever seen him make ends up with several people accusing them of just about everything under the sun. And then there are those who wonder why some of the big names don't frequent the forum

      Tina

      Get real. These guys are making bank. I do not feel sorry for them one bit.

      When you're at the top, you're open to criticism. Comes with the territory. Ya, I feel sorry for them as they go on their around-the-world cruises and go to the Super Bowl in a suite, etc.

      Not a chance I feel sorry for them.
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      • Profile picture of the author RMC
        They are so 2000 and late. I retired from MMO almost three years ago. And as usual I'm so ahead of the game, I'm dabbling with a comeback before they are even officially "retired"

        Seriously... It's got to be annoying being like head goooro. I know Mike has to guard his phone # on a serious level. I had to get super top secret clearance just for one of his pals to call him from my cell phone. (I can recall a time long ago where he actually gave out his personal number to customers!)
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    • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
      Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

      Maybe a few of them are sick of being bashed and whined about all over the net.

      Frankly, for some of them, I wouldn't blame them if I had to take the kind of crap that they take.

      I know there is one that people call a guru and he pops in here once in a while. In over two years, every single thread I've ever seen him make ends up with several people accusing them of just about everything under the sun. And then there are those who wonder why some of the big names don't frequent the forum

      Tina
      I seriously doubt that someone pulling in 7 figures is hung up on what a few malcontents on the warrior forum, or online in general, think of him/her. The reason I suspect they don't spend more time here is that they're too busy making money, or enjoying their great lifestyle!

      I mean boo-freakin-hoo; give me a break! If I ever get to the level of being an IM g*ru (which might happen if I quit wasting time like I am right now and a few people bash me in here (which I probably won't even know about), I will laugh my a** off if I ever see a post like this from somebody expressing sympathy for me!

      If you're famous for being super-successful, of course a small percent of the audience will take potshots-it's part of the gig. Jazz icon Miles Davis often got bashed by critics, but he didn't care; he drove Ferraris while they drove Dodge Darts (and jazz isn't known as a lucrative niche!). Once his new guitar player expressed upset feelings about a bad review, and here's what Miles told him: "You still reading that sh*t? Do like I do: I stopped reading the critics a long time ago." He did his thing and figured other people's opinion of it was their problem, not his.

      In other words, nobody needs your sympathy for all the "crap they have to take". Just because someone dishes it out, doesn't mean you have to eat it; in fact, most likely, you just hire someone for reputation control, and aren't even aware of the crap. If once in a while you come in here and deal with a few A-holes, big freakin deal! You don't become successful by being thin-skinned. Put them in their place and move on already, sheesh.

      In fact, the one g*ru bashing thread I read where a few people insulted John Reese for his part in the Tony Robbins/John Reese/Frank Kern video, they were quickly pounced on by about 95% of the posters in the thread who gave them a thrashing on John's behalf.

      Of course we all wish there were no jerks in the world, but pardon me if I don't cry for the superstars who have to deal with a few, just like the rest of us. Except, unlike the rest of us, they can outsource all of their "jerk control" tasks, if they choose to, and concentrate instead on their hordes of raving fans. Sounds like a tough life.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheWealthSquad
    Kern may be retiring from the normal IM approach but he isn't retiring from being in the marketplace. He is going to do more one on one coaching for a nice hefty up front fee and piece of the action.

    You can only sell so many How to Make Money products. You don't get rich mining for gold you get rich selling shovels, tents and blue jeans. Services provide continuity and give you much greater leverage.

    Kern made the comment in a video once that there is only so many ways to say
    1) Find a niche
    2) Do keyword research
    3) Make your customer an offer with value
    4) Test, adjust and replicate
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    • Profile picture of the author Brad Spencer
      Originally Posted by TheWealthSquad View Post

      Kern may be retiring from the normal IM approach but he isn't retiring from being in the marketplace. He is going to do more one on one coaching for a nice hefty up front fee and piece of the action.

      You can only sell so many How to Make Money products. You don't get rich mining for gold you get rich selling shovels, tents and blue jeans. Services provide continuity and give you much greater leverage.

      Kern made the comment in a video once that there is only so many ways to say
      1) Find a niche
      2) Do keyword research
      3) Make your customer an offer with value
      4) Test, adjust and replicate

      Haha...I notice we wrote the same thing and you just hit post first....

      Agreed...
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      • Profile picture of the author letsgetitstarted
        There are so many avenues opened up to those guys now because they've built their reputations online. They could have monthly retainers in the many thousands just to consult to corporations. they could also bulk sell their info products into large corporations too. Easier to sell 1000 copies to one company than 1000 copies to one thousand different people.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by TheWealthSquad View Post

      You can only sell so many How to Make Money products. You don't get rich mining for gold you get rich selling shovels, tents and blue jeans. Services provide continuity and give you much greater leverage.
      If you really study the various gold rushes, you'll find that the ones that eventually ended up with most of the gold were selling things like laundry service, hot meals and "companionship" to both the miners and the shovel sellers.

      I would not be in the IM industry for life because there are lots of other ways to make money - particularly from niche marketing.
      I think if you look back through history, you'll find that at the root of many aristocratic family dynasties lies an ancestor who got things going through much less savory means.

      > Privateering during war - legal piracy.
      > The slave trade
      > Smuggling
      > One could even point to the Kennedy roots in bootlegging...

      Before anyone jumps me for comparing IM to slave trading, I'm not doing that. I'm just saying that marketing "make money online" products doesn't have the cleanest reputation among the general population.

      So I don't blame any of them if they want to take their pile and do something more "respectable."
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Who cares?

        More money for me.

        Look, somebody has to teach the new people coming in.

        Why not me?

        I'm up for it.
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        • Profile picture of the author seriousmny
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          Who cares?

          More money for me.

          Look, somebody has to teach the new people coming in.

          Why not me?

          I'm up for it.
          Spoken in true Steven W. style. You've got my vote for replacement guru of 2010.

          I also am putting in a vote for I. Naseem and Yellowboy. These three dudes have done excellent WSOs and give great content for your money.

          Like it has already been said, it is just a process; these "gurus" have bigger fish to fry and are moving upward to widen their net of profit and put their eggs in more baskets.

          There are so many niches out there besides IM. We would all do ourselves a disservice by staying just in IM and take notes right now. In a way, for those who choose to follow their path, they are trail blazing a way for others and making mistakes and testing waters for us. All we need to do is keep an eye on them and see what works for them and emulate success.

          I am excited to see what works for them and what direction they will go in. In the meantime, there will be others that take their place and the world will keep on turning.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by elgransenor View Post

          Steve,
          I recently received an email from you saying that you were getting out of this business to concentrate on your music career..did you change your mind?
          I actually did semi retire in 2009 to work on my music. I made 4 CDs during
          that time. But honestly, I got bored so yes, I am going back into IM full
          gear in 2010.

          I missed it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        From the time newbies start in IM - they say the point is to "earn money while sleeping", have residual income, do what they want with their time, etc.

        Why be surprised when a few who have led the IM field for several years decide to move into an area with potentially fewer service demands and more challenges (and perhaps more time off, too)?

        If you do exactly the same thing in IM year after year - working hard to produce new "money making" ideas and products - at some point it feels just like a job. Time to move on to something else.

        kay
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    • Profile picture of the author Willmarathon
      Originally Posted by TheWealthSquad View Post

      Kern may be retiring from the normal IM approach but he isn't retiring from being in the marketplace. He is going to do more one on one coaching for a nice hefty up front fee and piece of the action.

      You can only sell so many How to Make Money products. You don't get rich mining for gold you get rich selling shovels, tents and blue jeans. Services provide continuity and give you much greater leverage.

      Kern made the comment in a video once that there is only so many ways to say
      1) Find a niche
      2) Do keyword research
      3) Make your customer an offer with value
      4) Test, adjust and replicate
      You are absolutely right and many people just try to article spin that to death like you and I haven't figured it out yet.
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    • Profile picture of the author Adeel_Chowdhry
      Originally Posted by TheWealthSquad View Post


      You can only sell so many How to Make Money products. You don't get rich mining for gold you get rich selling shovels, tents and blue jeans. Services provide continuity and give you much greater leverage.

      Kern made the comment in a video once that there is only so many ways to say
      1) Find a niche
      2) Do keyword research
      3) Make your customer an offer with value
      4) Test, adjust and replicate
      That's it ;-)
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  • Profile picture of the author Brad Spencer
    It's just a matter of broadening your horizons.

    I kind of like Rich Schefren's model. He has contacts all around the world and it's used in marketing of course...but it's usable in just about any biz.

    I mean the reality is that IM is simple if you focus on just getting offline businesses websites. The IM niche is crazy...

    However, it's also a great market and the one I focus on because I truly enjoy taking someone with nothing and then answering their question only to notice a paypal email saying they bought something from me.

    I love learning something and teaching...maybe I should be an offline professor haha...

    But seriously...these guys retire probably b/c they're bored.

    Anyone who's purchased something from Frank Kern knows the guy's brilliant. He sent me one offline package of cookies a while back b/c I bought MC2 early this year. No marketer has ever sent me a damn thing before that...plus I got offline packages and you better believe i read what he sent...

    He was selling some 100k a year plus royalties package...I would've considered it if I was solely focused on IM...the man is just brilliant.

    Our business is easily transferable and I think you're just seeing that with these guys retiring.

    Cheers,

    Brad
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  • Profile picture of the author Marian Berghes
    Like others have said I just thing that they are going to the "next level" or following a certain passion of theirs.

    Filsaime said in his video that technology is his true passion and having the assets that he has now can fulfill this passion.
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    • Profile picture of the author Justin_nzpcs
      Originally Posted by Marian Berghes View Post

      Like others have said I just thing that they are going to the "next level" or following a certain passion of theirs.

      Filsaime said in his video that technology is his true passion and having the assets that he has now can fulfill this passion.
      Does this mean I wont get thousands of spam mail now i've been forced to go back on his list so I can receive affiliate payments from the "very few" programs I promote from paydotcom.

      I read the terms and it sounds like he can even sale my details if he likes... Not sure Jon leger checked that out before making all his affiliates join paypeople online if they want to get paid.

      Quote from privacy policy paypeopleonline"In addition, from time to time as we continue to develop our business, we may sell, buy, merge or partner with other companies or businesses. In such transactions, user information may be among the transferred assets."
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  • Profile picture of the author brchap
    I don't know about the rest of you guys... but, there comes a time in everyone's life when you just want to do something different. I've changed careers a couple of times in my life already.

    As child (and young adult) I never had any idea what I wanted to be when I grew up. I switched my major 4 times in college... from environmental engineering, to mathematics, to computer science, and then to psychology... and then back to computer science.

    I've owned my own computer repair and IT services business now for almost 10 years. At first, I was absolutely obsessed with technology, how it works, why it works, how I could tweak it and make it do back flips... and especially how to sell all of those features and benefits.

    However, now I am pretty much bored with it. I still do it. I brings me a nice paycheck, and business keeps getting better (even through the recession).

    Honestly, I am thinking of selling my business... or walking away from the business altogether if I can't sell it.

    Am I crazy?

    Maybe, but that's beside the point.

    The real issue here is that networking computers, repairing laptops and recovering data from bad sectors does not interest me any longer. Because of my lack of interest, it suddenly feels like WORK. I have to force myself out of bed in the morning to meet with clients. It sucks.

    I've been interested in MMO for a while... and a few years back I had some pretty good success with affiliate marketing (web hosting mostly), but I really didn't see the potential at the time.

    I became re-acquainted with IM a few months ago and it was like an answer to my prayers. I'm already earning some money (not enough to live off of yet, but still). But, more than the money, it is something that interests me. I sincerely enjoy it.

    So, anyway... before I write a novel here...

    My point is: I think that many people get to a point in life in which they think that they are ready to start the next chapter. So, maybe these gurus ARE sick of dealing with noobs who expect to get rich by plopping down their $67 and watching a few videos. I know that I'd get tired of that REAL quick.

    Or, maybe they are just tired. Perhaps they have decided that they have earned enough money for this life and are ready to work on achieving some "spiritual wealth". After all, you can't take it with you, right?
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Looks like I've been living in a cave. Oh well, back to work for this kid.
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi brchap,

      Perhaps they have decided that they have earned enough money for this life and are ready to work on achieving some "spiritual wealth". After all, you can't take it with you, right?
      About time some of them tried that...it's the worst debt to have, a spiritual wealth overdraft :rolleyes: Some people believe that you do take that with you.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I find it interesting that they have to announce they are retiring!
        I thought that, too - but then realized it would be an ego chiller to retire without an announcement and find nobody noticed you were gone.

        Besides, you'd miss out on the "selling everything on my hard drive because I'm retiring" sale.

        kay
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel E Taylor
    *Yawn*

    When are you guys going to realize aint nobody retiring from
    a got damn thing.

    You guys realize in the big picture these guys really don't
    make that much money. Yea to a struggling marketer
    10 million in revenue seems like alot in business.

    But after expenses and you talk about take home profit
    these guys probably see 2-5 million tops go into their
    bank account IF THAT.

    Only in IM would you hear business owners saying something
    as stupid as "I'm retiring".

    What other field do business owners spend years building
    it up to a million dollar level, only to retire with enough to
    last 2 years tops.

    I'll believe it when they delete their huge lists.

    Daniel
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    • Profile picture of the author Bryan Zimmerman
      Originally Posted by Daniel E Taylor View Post

      *Yawn*
      You guys realize in the big picture these guys really don't
      make that much money. Yea to a struggling marketer
      10 million in revenue seems like alot in business.

      But after expenses and you talk about take home profit
      these guys probably see 2-5 million tops go into their
      bank account IF THAT.

      Lol, what rock have I been living under that 2-5 million is not a lot of money
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      • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
        Originally Posted by Bryan Zimmerman View Post

        Lol, what rock have I been living under that 2-5 million is not a lot of money
        It is all relative. It isn't, compared with what A-list actors get for one month's work (but astronomical compared to what screenwriters get for one year's work on a produced script). It would seem like a pittance if that was all that the people at the very top of IM are getting (however, the owners of Google are at the very top and make billions of $$$, even after overhead)
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        • Profile picture of the author Bryan Zimmerman
          Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

          It is all relative. It isn't, compared with what A-list actors get for one month's work (but astronomical compared to what screenwriters get for one year's work on a produced script).
          True, but I would put a lot of money on the fact that 90% or higher or the worlds population would have a big on their face if you told them they made 2-5 million a year.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Hooper
    Like Kiss or Cher, IM gurus always claim retirement, but come back within a few months...
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    Filsaime figured out the real game.

    The real money is in technology services.... just like it was in 1994.

    Quick, name me a how to get rich internet marketing guru that has taken his internet marketing business public with an IPO.

    Nay... name me a how to get rich internet marketing guru that has obtained venture capital funding for their internet marketing business.

    I certainly can't think of any.

    See... as much nonsense that gets bantered about in this industry, the internet marketing community as it exists here on the WF and other similar places, did not invent the internet. They did not invent or perfect marketing on the web. They did not invent or perfect search engine optimization or copywriting. They did not invent or perfect squeeze pages or email permission marketing. They did not invent affiliate marketing. They did not invent information products. Etcc... etc.... etc....

    Also, as much as this cloister of myopic people would like to think... corporate entities are not these giant organizations full of ignorant morons that cannot think.

    I have laughed and laughed at some of the idiotic statements that get spewed on this forum (I suspect largely by young people that have very little, real business experience). It's sort of like an Amway meeting, where everyone nods in agreement with the circus ringmaster at the front of the room chanting, "We all hate our day jobs don't we..." right before rushing into the street armed with the sales pitch of trying to appeal to the nearest fellow buffoon that will buy into their parroted crap.
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    • Profile picture of the author Phil Ayres
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      Filsaime figured out the real game.

      The real money is in technology services.... just like it was in 1994.

      Quick, name me a how to get rich internet marketing guru that has taken his internet marketing business public with an IPO.

      Nay... name me a how to get rich internet marketing guru that has obtained venture capital funding for their internet marketing business.

      I certainly can't think of any.
      I completely agree with this assessment. Plus, after a while, how many times can you say "develop a product and sell ****"... I mean "REALLY"... how many times can you role out Mass Control and Butterfly Marketing. IM Guru-ville is the minor leagues.

      The major leagues are in building the company with ongoing services.
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  • Profile picture of the author Shana_Adam
    Originally Posted by MarketingSPY View Post

    If these are multi-million dollar businesses, then why quit?

    I would love to hear your opinions.
    Its like the Adwords phenomena that many gurus used to use to sell products with ie spending $50K a month to make $15K profit.

    The ROI is not that great. The lifestyle of Internet marketing is one that burns you out quickly.

    At the end of the day all everyone really wants is to make enough money to retire rich somewhere over the rainbow. Others that are motivated by fame or status and being the IT Guru, well there is a high price to pay for that sort of lifestyle.

    As we seeing it is not a nice place to be - Perry Belcher himself has left due to the intrusion upon his privacy and the exposure that can have serious detrimental effects on not only you but your family too.
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  • Profile picture of the author pcpupil
    Im on filsaimes list and watched the video.
    What nobody has said is as his retirement package he is giving away 10,000 copies of the 7 figure code for free.
    But,you have to pay shipping,so we know its going to be higher than actual shipping.
    I mean,i sell on ebay and could put that package in the big flat rate box probably for $11.00.And ship it anywhere that has a 5 digit postal code.
    Ill see how much he charges when its offered as im on the announcent list.
    Then lets see about the continuity.He said in his video hes going to put more effort into his paydotcom site,affiliate sales,membership sites of his,and services and i beilieve software membership sites.
    I dont know about anyone elses plans,but have heard of the other retirees.
    Matt
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
      I'm considering retiring from IM. One of the homeless old geezers in my neighbourhood is giving up his can and cardboard collecting route. It's a massive opportunity. I'll even get my own wagon to pull around the streets.
      Signature
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
        Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

        I'm considering retiring from IM. One of the homeless old geezers in my neighbourhood is giving up his can and cardboard collecting route. It's a massive opportunity. I'll even get my own wagon to pull around the streets.
        As long as the cans are aluminum, heck, there's some good money in that.

        I have a wagon, but I'm not giving mine up. But, if you're in the market for a used wagon, for the right price, I'll buy a new wagon and beat it up to resemble my old wagon.

        And then I'll do a WSO on how to make $10,000 a day by weathering wagons and selling them to retiring gurus.

        Once the WSO is wrapped up, then I'll sell MRR/RR rights to the eBook and then maybe I can retire.

        I love it when a plan comes together...
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        • Profile picture of the author Adam Carn
          Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

          And then I'll do a WSO on how to make $10,000 a day by weathering wagons and selling them to retiring gurus.
          LOL retiring gurus. Now that niche may have potential.

          Thanks,
          Adam
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      • Profile picture of the author letsgetitstarted
        It's going to be incredibly difficult for certain people in the IM niche to sell their wares now the new ftc rules have come into force.

        No more "You scratch my back I'll scrath yours" testimonials. So the big players can't give social proof to each others products anymore.
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        • Profile picture of the author psresearch
          Originally Posted by letsgetitstarted View Post

          It's going to be incredibly difficult for certain people in the IM niche to sell their wares now the new ftc rules have come into force.

          No more "You scratch my back I'll scrath yours" testimonials. So the big players can't give social proof to each others products anymore.
          Actually, I seriously doubt that's an issue because a lot of them were ALREADY stating they were using an affiliate link WELL before Dec. 1
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        • Profile picture of the author psresearch
          Originally Posted by letsgetitstarted View Post

          It's going to be incredibly difficult for certain people in the IM niche to sell their wares now the new ftc rules have come into force.

          No more "You scratch my back I'll scrath yours" testimonials. So the big players can't give social proof to each others products anymore.
          Hmm. I'm rethinking this. I still don't think this would be a reason for 'retirement' but it is an interesting issue about social proof and ftc regs. I didn't follow Jeff Walker's recent relaunch, so not sure if it got covered there.
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      • Profile picture of the author Collette
        Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

        I'm considering retiring from IM. One of the homeless old geezers in my neighbourhood is giving up his can and cardboard collecting route. It's a massive opportunity. I'll even get my own wagon to pull around the streets.
        If you lived in the U.S. you could get some of them Federal stimulus $$$, hire more hamsters, and get them to pull the wagon for you.

        Small business enterprise, environmentally sensitive initiatives, and jobs creation. Heck, if you used the cardboard for insulating your shack, you'd be eligible for weatherization tax rebates, too.

        You could clean up - even if your name isn't "Goldman Sachs".

        I'm just sayin'...
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi,

          You can throw in some more reasons - the market has matured.

          Even though there are more people than ever arriving looking to earn some kind of income, Google has got wise to many of it's own loopholes and is starting to wipe out some segments of the market with broad strokes - whichever way you look at it, they've made it more diffficult.

          The huge affiliate programs like EPN and Amazon have put the squeeze on affiliates (they were always going to - they don't actually need affiliates and could survive without them). Amazon's cookie changes, EPN's continual payment system changes and expirations.

          Ebay have put the squeeze on smaller eBay sellers and invited big companies to take their place.

          Mainstays of the IM market have become ineffective - take PLR for example or MFA sites.

          The list is endless. It has become harder for newbies to enter, and harder for intermediates to survive.

          There is always going to be a market for selling to newbies BUT it has become harder for those sellers to make promises to them about how much success their products will provide.

          Consequently, with a mixture of ethical and the ever present non-ethical sellers and a greater number of newbies not finding success with their investments, the backlash has become more unpleasant.

          Couple this with all of the other reasons given in this thread and the fact that worldwide financial difficulties for the bottom 70-80% of the world's earners are causing unhappiness and stress, then it's no surprise that things are changing.
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      • Profile picture of the author FrankBowman
        Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

        I'm considering retiring from IM. One of the homeless old geezers in my neighbourhood is giving up his can and cardboard collecting route. It's a massive opportunity. I'll even get my own wagon to pull around the streets.
        Hey wait! I thought I had first dibs on that route, I gave that guy 3 cigarettes last week as payment
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Davidson
          I think it must be all in the name of publicity, just a different angle to get peoples attention!

          Having said that i do believe that many will have used there experience to find other easier and potentially more profitable niches!

          Cheers

          Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
          Originally Posted by FrankBowman View Post

          Hey wait! I thought I had first dibs on that route, I gave that guy 3 cigarettes last week as payment

          I wouldn't laugh too hard about it. A friend of mine -- a tax & real estate lawyer -- discovered he makes less net profit per year than a client of his who is a certain broke-looking bin-diver. Via his bottle and can collections, selling recycled metals and suchlike, and collectors' item sales (yes, many people throw away valuable collectors' items), and occasional panhandling, this bin-diver has consistently pulled in 170K-300k per year (after his negligible overhead, and basically tax-exempt due to his disability status as "mentally ill").
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Originally Posted by pcpupil View Post

      Im on filsaimes list and watched the video.
      What nobody has said is as his retirement package he is giving away 10,000 copies of the 7 figure code for free.
      I find it hard to believe that he has 10,000 copies sitting around at a fulfillment house somewhere. That product is a couple of years old. It's pretty good (I think I paid around $400). But not so good that you would just have 10,000 extra copies sitting around.

      Unless he had a bunch more made up to give as a bonus for taking him up on a continuity trial. And if that's the case, the continuity offer must not have gone as well as planned or he wouldn't have that many copies left over.

      Either way, I'd be interested to observe the whole "reason why" of the final promotion. Maybe I'll have to get back on Mike's list and do just that.
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    • Profile picture of the author Justin Wheeler
      Originally Posted by pcpupil View Post

      Im on filsaimes list and watched the video.
      What nobody has said is as his retirement package he is giving away 10,000 copies of the 7 figure code for free.
      But,you have to pay shipping,so we know its going to be higher than actual shipping.
      I mean,i sell on ebay and could put that package in the big flat rate box probably for $11.00.And ship it anywhere that has a 5 digit postal code.
      Ill see how much he charges when its offered as im on the announcent list.
      Then lets see about the continuity.He said in his video hes going to put more effort into his paydotcom site,affiliate sales,membership sites of his,and services and i beilieve software membership sites.
      I dont know about anyone elses plans,but have heard of the other retirees.
      Matt
      I will pay the shipping for anyone who wants it! Effectively he is getting more people signed up to his list and is paying them for it. I believe there are two upsells.

      I think retiring is a myth, they are just gonna concentrate on selling stuff through their list, quite possibly other peoples products. Filsaime has paydotcom.com and tweetglide plus a number of other products and they aren't going to go away. Ultimately its all about boosting list sizes!

      I heard Ryan Deiss say that he had a bet with a friend of his that by the time he got back from lunch he would have enough money to buy his friend golf clubs if he sent an email out. Sure enough he did.
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    • Profile picture of the author macknox
      Originally Posted by pcpupil View Post

      Im on filsaimes list and watched the video.
      What nobody has said is as his retirement package he is giving away 10,000 copies of the 7 figure code for free.
      But,you have to pay shipping,so we know its going to be higher than actual shipping.
      I mean,i sell on ebay and could put that package in the big flat rate box probably for $11.00.And ship it anywhere that has a 5 digit postal code.
      Ill see how much he charges when its offered as im on the announcent list.
      Then lets see about the continuity.He said in his video hes going to put more effort into his paydotcom site,affiliate sales,membership sites of his,and services and i beilieve software membership sites.
      I dont know about anyone elses plans,but have heard of the other retirees.
      Matt
      I wish he more effort with paydotcom... it's truly bad... I went to buy a product and it stalled... then i saw it was due paydotcom... i gave up.

      I still remember Ewan Chia's big "retirement" bash where he sold off his business to the lucky few... shoot I was too slow and missed out maybe I be faster this time around.

      Let's get real NO-ONE retires in IM... we will all die with a stinky mouse in our hand and DVT in our legs!
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  • Profile picture of the author JRG
    Yeah I have seen a lot of those as well, I lean towards just another tactic to move on to something else that is really the same thing just called something different. lol
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    • Profile picture of the author Wealthyclark
      It's almost like being a drug dealer, you get out when the fire is blazing or risk having everything you worked so hard for within the past ten years taken away in a split second.
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      I think the FTC changes will have something to do with it.

      And probably about time too... And I ain't being sour about this. Not every guru is squeaky clean IMO.

      People forget that many of these gurus make the bulk of their income selling from the stage. I've done some tours and the claims I've heard and the "frat house" testimonials are mind blowing.

      But I can understand it when people like Mike Filsaime decide to move on. The guy is no dunce... nor is Kern or Dale for that matter.

      Good luck to the angels.. good riddance to the vultures.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ralf Skirr
      I'm sure there are different reasons for different gurus.

      • Some may decide to stop selling to the financially limited 1-person-mom-and-pop home business and target clients with deep pockets.
      • Some may go into the technology services route.
      • Some may not stop at all but use the retirement simply as marketing ploy. Ewen Chia retired years ago as a hook to sell his Superaffiliate Cloning Course and made Millions. Mark Joyner retired years ago.Aren't they still selling to the IM crowd?
      • Some may 'retire' for reasons I can't think of right now. ;-)
      Ralf
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnB23
        No offense to anyone really deep in the IM game, but its a weird business. It seems to operate by its own rules, and what passes in IM, *would not* pass in other fields.

        If you have a 30-40% refund rate, maybe your product is no good. A lot of these guys are driven by testosterone, and sort of a type A, super fast ADD sort of mentality. It doesnt always translate to smooth, effortless business decisions. More herky, jerky, try something here, try something there. Like Schreffen. There's no one sure path of success for everyone. Much more individualistic...everyone wants to try new things some times.

        Also, IM is hitting the maturity level from when it was hot 6-10 years ago. The internet as a whole has matured, so a function of that, web marketing, also is maturing. The easy innovations have been taken. And with no, low barriers to entry, there's alot of junk out there.
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    • Profile picture of the author ozduc
      Maybe they are just "retiring" from teaching IM. I'm sure all the sites they have up and running in various other niches will continue to make them money for many years to come.
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    • Profile picture of the author gladwyn
      They are Gurus for the simple reason that they can see what others either dismiss as gimmick or are ignoramus.

      Time and again when there is a shift there is always a reason sought after the shift. During the shift it is always a point of debate, discussion and arguments

      As a former student of a Guru :p

      There is two things that I remember

      Markets Change forms, they never die...
      Cream is always when there is NO Gold RUSH
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Generally speaking it's easier to make money just doing this stuff than it is to teach it if you really know what you're doing.

      Some people teach because it fulfills them in other ways.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author kkrueger
    Let me add Sherman Hu to the list. He doesn't want to spend so much time "doing" anymore so he can spend more time with his family...but I think he's doing some kind of giveaway as a parting gift. At least that's what I read right before I hit the unsubscribe link...

    Add the "retirement" strategy to your marketing notes... LOL

    BTW, I'm retiring too...
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  • Profile picture of the author ionsysproject2
    Hmm, never thought of that before, maybe I should have a deeper research done on that.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    your a sad bunch of people...

    Mike never once mentioned retiring from IM... Just from creating information products.

    And the email and announcement is pretty simple really, and if you were really marketers instead of bashers you would be comfortable with, "hes creating buzz to make one last big splash from the decision"

    Robert
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

      your a sad bunch of people...

      Mike never once mentioned retiring from IM... Just from creating information products.

      And the email and announcement is pretty simple really, and if you were really marketers instead of bashers you would be comfortable with, "hes creating buzz to make one last big splash from the decision"

      Robert
      Robert, it wasn't my intent to bash. As I said, I'm not on Mike's list anymore so I haven't seen the actual email. So I was taking the word of others in this thread about his intentions. And I made a comment based on that information. The way you explain it makes more sense. I still wonder about the number of copies though. I may actually get back on his list to observe how it all goes down.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sean Ski
    Teaching people marketing is just one niche... they may just be working on other niche markets... Think about it... What do a lot of them really have left to talk about?

    They're still marketers, just not marketing to the make money crowd anymore. Once you have a strong business other windows of opportunity open for you...

    Maybe they want to jump into to things like CPA; you sometimes hear or even see affiliate marketers blog where they're showing you how they have regular $3,000 - $5,000 days...

    We all heard about the whole Ayman $100k per day (even though I'm pretty sure he said he usually make $20-$30k on regular days)... So if big time affiliates are pulling numbers like that, imagine what the merchants are making...

    Branching out into broader niche markets equals more money and there's a lot of evergreen products to create instead of heaving to come up with new ideas for a product launch every 4 months.
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  • Profile picture of the author Beldin
    I knew it, it's all over. I got in too late....
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    • Profile picture of the author Wealthyclark
      Originally Posted by Beldin View Post

      I knew it, it's all over. I got in too late....
      Don't worry Beldin, these people have made millions they just don't want to risk it so their moving on to safer grounds.
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  • Profile picture of the author redfoxseo
    I look at it this way, Some Retire, Quit, Move on or whatever it is. This is normal, At the same time new people are coming in. This is a fact of life and shouldn't worry anyone.
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  • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
    I get about 2 e-mails a week from the "retired Howie".
    I had an email from Frank just last week plugging some Wordpress theme, and as far as I know MC monthly is still going fine with a ton of members paying a hefty monthly.
    I unsubbed from Mike F's so no idea what he's doing / not doing.

    These guys are already so rich in real terms, why bother screwing around doing a couple of hundred grand per launch and all the headaches and customer service and refunds and support and JV organising and product creation and so on.

    They can do high end coaching $25-$50k type stuff, get 10 good students , work hard with them on rev share and acheive the same if not better with far less hassle.

    These guys have their fingers in a lot of honey pots now, hell if Howie for example is even 1/10th as successful at driving traffic as he claims why the hell keep bothering with IM, he should be creaming $100k a day from CPA alone.

    Perhaps they just came to the conclusion that concentating on other business formats whilist playing some golf , driving the ferrari and going surfing was infinintatly more interesting than re-spinning the same content for the 10th time into a new product.

    Who knows, but so far , the "retired" guys don't seem very retired anyway.
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  • Profile picture of the author PVReymond
    Well, there are people who are moving in a different direction but there are others that are focusing on this more and more.

    I think it is a decision you make at a certain point of your life.

    Thanks!
    ^PV Reymond
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  • Profile picture of the author Fox30
    Why do people worry about what other people are doing? Get to work!
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  • Profile picture of the author marklyford
    Dont believe the hype I reckon I think so many of these emails come through .. its all publicity, you cant be looking to turn $15 mill a year next year and NOT sell product in some way... just my 2 cents
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    Man, can we just forget about "gurus" already? Most of the gurus people always talk about are not really active here at the forum. I get much better help and tips from getting on the email lists of those here on the forum. Sure, some of the "gurus" probably start a thread here now and then, etc. But most of them do not really interest me, to say the least.
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  • Profile picture of the author silvervixen
    The successful IMers are probably just changing their focus. (I refuse to use the word "guru" any more to describe successful IM people...it sounds like the leader of a hippie retreat back in the 60's!)

    I really don't think the FTC regs have anything to do with it. These guys are savvy enough to know how to work within the guidelines without it hurting their businesses in the least.

    Or, they could just be retiring and laughing all the way to the bank. That's where I want to be someday...comfortable, happy and secure.
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  • Profile picture of the author Simo
    I like Mike Filsaime's method of "moving on"

    I am not interested in his offer but:

    -He's still in the same niche just focusing on a different service.
    -He offers a valuable course in return for your email address and for you to pay a small shipping fee. Most people will consider that more than a fair trade for their email address
    -He notes that while he is moving away from IM he'll still be around to sell you products and add value to your IM education.

    I'm not interested, but I respect his methods.

    Slick marketing in my book. Kudos to him.
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  • Profile picture of the author sodette1
    LOL... I just spent fifteen minutes reading this thread, and, uhm.... well....
    Wow. You know, I've been a 'lurker' member here for over a year, purchased a lot
    of products and through my passive observations, have learned a lot about many
    of the folks here. There is nothing like watching from a clear vantage point to give
    one a clear perspective.

    But think about this - over 15 minutes now, reading a conversation by otherwise
    intelligent marketers speculating over the retirement, or not, of other marketers whose
    decisions likely have very little bearing at all on their own businesses. Which, I might
    add, in many cases may not yet be at the even "$2M - $5M year" mark, that is supposedly
    not too much. Ugh...

    I also feel compelled to comment to Robert that you are correct - the old school
    sales managers of dying corporatations did and still do compell sales people to sell
    to the point of massive, if possible, refunds and cancellations. I used to sell for them.

    That is just another sadly true fact - but, from a consumers standpoint and even
    from a business standpoint... that doesn't mean its the best or the right way to go
    about sales. I also think that the repercussions of such practices have created a really
    bad mark on the sales industry in general.

    In fact, you may have hard-core used car salesman using their push tactics on
    internet marketers, soaking the industry dry, then retiring to more profitably niches
    if those tactics still worked... uhm... err... wait a minute, that sounds vaguely familiar, eh?....

    Cudos for the observation and apparently high-opinion of such practices - I'll stick to
    my less than $2M annually (for now) and a good nights sleep personally...

    Now.. how many of you just spent over twenty minutes reading this thread with no
    website up or product to sell or money coming in this week? LOL...

    "Retiring guru's" ROFLMAO... too funny.

    Respectfully...
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    • Profile picture of the author mlevenhagen
      We're never supposed to retire??
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      Blog: Niche Marketing
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by sodette1 View Post

      <snip>

      "Retiring guru's" ROFLMAO... too funny.

      Respectfully...
      I also find it kind of funny. It is natural enough here to note the actions of anyone who has achieved a godlike status in IM. That said, there is a lot of smoke and mirrors in IM. Much, if not most of it, is hype that turns out to be a little morsel on a big plate once the sizzle dissipates (like one of those $200 meals). Much of what is projected in IM is about as realistic as a made-for-TV movie. We like to believe it -- it makes us feel warm and fuzzy, yet we know it isn't real.
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      I think you raise a valid point...

      Take a look at how it has evolved from the stage...

      Phase 1 was all about selling a "business in a box".

      Phase 2 Was allabout the biz-in-a-box + some email support

      Phase 3 was all about a basic coaching program + the biz-in-a-box as a bonus

      Phase 4 is all about the high ticket coaching program.

      Where to next?

      Yes, it's all part of the evolution process.

      Get in... make the money.. move on.

      Oh, and the fact that this topic has gone on for so long only validates these "retirement announcements... just look at the buzz created.




      Originally Posted by sodette1 View Post

      LOL... I just spent fifteen minutes reading this thread, and, uhm.... well....
      Wow. You know, I've been a 'lurker' member here for over a year, purchased a lot
      of products and through my passive observations, have learned a lot about many
      of the folks here. There is nothing like watching from a clear vantage point to give
      one a clear perspective.

      But think about this - over 15 minutes now, reading a conversation by otherwise
      intelligent marketers speculating over the retirement, or not, of other marketers whose
      decisions likely have very little bearing at all on their own businesses. Which, I might
      add, in many cases may not yet be at the even "$2M - $5M year" mark, that is supposedly
      not too much. Ugh...

      I also feel compelled to comment to Robert that you are correct - the old school
      sales managers of dying corporatations did and still do compell sales people to sell
      to the point of massive, if possible, refunds and cancellations. I used to sell for them.

      That is just another sadly true fact - but, from a consumers standpoint and even
      from a business standpoint... that doesn't mean its the best or the right way to go
      about sales. I also think that the repercussions of such practices have created a really
      bad mark on the sales industry in general.

      In fact, you may have hard-core used car salesman using their push tactics on
      internet marketers, soaking the industry dry, then retiring to more profitably niches
      if those tactics still worked... uhm... err... wait a minute, that sounds vaguely familiar, eh?....

      Cudos for the observation and apparently high-opinion of such practices - I'll stick to
      my less than $2M annually (for now) and a good nights sleep personally...

      Now.. how many of you just spent over twenty minutes reading this thread with no
      website up or product to sell or money coming in this week? LOL...

      "Retiring guru's" ROFLMAO... too funny.

      Respectfully...
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    I'll say this much. Based on my own personal experience, some of these "gurus" deserve the bad press they get in www.RipoffReport.com. I suggest anyone who depends on a "guru" for anything listen to that a song by Living Color called, "Cult of Personality."
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      John McCabe, each day, more and more, I am realizing how damn smart you
      are.

      Folks, John hit the nail right on the head.

      Why is it that when somebody decides to go off in another direction that
      they're bailing?

      What? I have to do this for the rest of my life?

      Can't I decide to do something else someday without being called a bailer?

      The way people look at things just amazes me sometimes.
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      • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        The way people look at things just amazes me sometimes.
        I'm reminded of a Michael Jackson song right now....
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      • Profile picture of the author Lance K
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        John McCabe, each day, more and more, I am realizing how damn smart you
        are.

        Folks, John hit the nail right on the head.

        Why is it that when somebody decides to go off in another direction that
        they're bailing?

        What? I have to do this for the rest of my life?

        Can't I decide to do something else someday without being called a bailer?

        The way people look at things just amazes me sometimes.


        I agree that it's not really "bailing" in the sense that John stated.

        But really, it seems to me that it was a carefully selected action verb designed to draw people into the discussion. Not to convey that the "gurus" were deserting their dependents. When marketers claim that something will "explode" your sales do you take cover and put ear plugs in?
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  • Profile picture of the author actionplanbiz
    i think we all should too then if they are.

    seems like they all got a tip of some upcoming Crackdown or something.
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  • Profile picture of the author FrankRumbauskas
    This is happening for a VERY simple reason:

    The money is in continuity products. Continuity information products, however, have a high attrition rate and are very time-consuming to keep fresh with new content every month.

    Hosted software products & services, however, keep customers paying for the service month after month, with no work required on the provider's part other than a helpdesk. It's truly "set it and forget it."

    I'm moving in this direction as well. I have programmers working on some very cool services that will be ready early 2010. Continuity info products just aren't worth the headache.
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    • Profile picture of the author mikemac1
      Makes perfect sense. I know software has been around forever, but it seems like (to me) ever since Traffic Geyser came out a lot of people started to get into IM software. I always remembered one of the vids from Traffic Geyser said they had 1,000 subscribers paying (I think) $97 a month - Yeah, $97,000 a month in revenue!

      Again it makes perfect sense.



      Originally Posted by FrankRumbauskas View Post

      This is happening for a VERY simple reason:

      The money is in continuity products. Continuity information products, however, have a high attrition rate and are very time-consuming to keep fresh with new content every month.

      Hosted software products & services, however, keep customers paying for the service month after month, with no work required on the provider's part other than a helpdesk. It's truly "set it and forget it."

      I'm moving in this direction as well. I have programmers working on some very cool services that will be ready early 2010. Continuity info products just aren't worth the headache.
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  • Profile picture of the author nichecloner
    I just popped into the forum to see what is going on. I havent been here in quite a while. However, I too quit Internet Marketing to other Internet Marketers back in 2007.

    Why?

    It was Simple. There was just more money to be made in my "real" businesses and IM just started to become a distraction for such a small return. I still enjoy helping others make money online, I just dont do it for a living anymore. I do it because I like to help and give back to people trying to succeed. There is real joy in doing that because you want to and not because you are out to get something.

    I think it is great that people like Mike F. are moving on to bigger and better..
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    • Profile picture of the author John_Reese
      Since a lot of people consider me a 'guru' (hate that term) and I am also good friends with many (not all) of the marketers 'leaving' the IM space, I thought I'd chime in with my two cents...

      I believe in almost every case it has ZERO to do with the FTC changes. Some have said that products can't sell well now because of the "average results" issue - I disagree 100%. I did a $1MM+ launch day for TS2 last summer and didn't use a single results-based type testimonial. So I don't think that new FTC rule will have too much of a negative impact.

      I also don't think people are leaving the industry (at least the teaching part) because of some big 'crackdown' that's on the way, etc. The new FTC rules are nothing to fear. It just takes changing your marketing a bit to comply.

      I think one of the big reasons is simple... THEY'RE JUST TIRED OF IT.

      Any marketer that can make millions as an IM guru can (well, should) be able to make millions in many other markets they'd like to go into. I think a lot of these people are just looking for new challenges.

      I know my days as an IM guru are numbered. I've been doing it now for about 5 years or so. I recently said to one of my marketing friends...

      "You know... I'm really just TIRED OF BEING THE PRODUCT."

      Being an entrepreneur is a very CREATIVE pursuit. It's exciting to come up with ideas and try and make them grow. Well, when you're an IM guru so much relies solely on what YOU produce. If you don't make new products (most likely) the revenue suffers. So there's that constant pressure of creating new products and teaching new things.

      After awhile, this can really wear on you. Throw in the fact that teaching a subject matter like 'making money' (which is a very subjective issue) is HIGHLY SCRUTINIZED.

      Whether people realize it or not, choosing to make your living (or most of it) in an industry where people constantly BASH YOU (some of it deserved, a lot of it not) is not exactly an IDEAL place to be incredibly happy. Sure, you can just ignore those people, but it really is nearly impossible to do so. We're all HUMAN and it just doesn't work that way.

      So speaking for myself... I really do love to teach and I really do love to help people (and hopefully change their family's lives) but I don't want to spend my entire life DOING THE SAME THING - regardless of what that is.

      As an entrepreneur, I get excited and passionate about cultivating ideas. Well, for the past few years since I've been an IM guru there hasn't been a lot of free time to pursue other business projects. I've certainly pursued some, but nowhere near as many as I could if I wasn't so tied into a company where *I* was the product itself and its growth (or not) had everything to do with me cranking out more products.

      So I think what you're seeing with a lot of marketers that are 'retiring' from the guru world is that they are simply moving on to other pursuits. Some in the same market (like Filsaime) and some away from the same market.

      I also don't think the announcements (at least 95% of them) are some sort of marketing 'trick' to create scarcity or whatever. I believe these guys when they say they are going to stop producing make money courses. Now certainly I don't doubt that many may return and do it again in the future, but I do think their 'announcements' are sincere.

      Again, I can't speak for anyone else, but I really do think it's all about BEING HAPPY. I personally don't want to be an IM guru much longer and I've already got some things "in motion" that will allow me to transition away from it. I'm just ready to move on and do other things. One of the projects I'm really excited about is building things for the iPhone. I think that would be a blast. But who knows... in 5 years I'll probably be sick of that too.

      -John Reese
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      • Profile picture of the author Raydal
        Originally Posted by John_Reese View Post

        Whether people realize it or not, choosing to make your living (or most of it) in an industry where people constantly BASH YOU (some of it deserved, a lot of it not) is not exactly an IDEAL place to be incredibly happy. Sure, you can just ignore those people, but it really is nearly impossible to do so. We're all HUMAN and it just doesn't work that way.

        -John Reese
        I agree John. If you want to make a lot of money without the "bashing"
        then anyone would be smart enough to choose professional golf.

        -Ray Edwards
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      • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
        Originally Posted by John_Reese View Post

        Since a lot of people consider me a 'guru' (hate that term) and I am also good friends with many (not all) of the marketers 'leaving' the IM space, I thought I'd chime in with my two cents...

        I believe in almost every case it has ZERO to do with the FTC changes. Some have said that products can't sell well now because of the "average results" issue - I disagree 100%. I did a $1MM+ launch day for TS2 last summer and didn't use a single results-based type testimonial. So I don't think that new FTC rule will have too much of a negative impact.

        I also don't think people are leaving the industry (at least the teaching part) because of some big 'crackdown' that's on the way, etc. The new FTC rules are nothing to fear. It just takes changing your marketing a bit to comply.

        I think one of the big reasons is simple... THEY'RE JUST TIRED OF IT.

        Any marketer that can make millions as an IM guru can (well, should) be able to make millions in many other markets they'd like to go into. I think a lot of these people are just looking for new challenges.

        I know my days as an IM guru are numbered. I've been doing it now for about 5 years or so. I recently said to one of my marketing friends...

        "You know... I'm really just TIRED OF BEING THE PRODUCT."

        Being an entrepreneur is a very CREATIVE pursuit. It's exciting to come up with ideas and try and make them grow. Well, when you're an IM guru so much relies solely on what YOU produce. If you don't make new products (most likely) the revenue suffers. So there's that constant pressure of creating new products and teaching new things.

        After awhile, this can really wear on you. Throw in the fact that teaching a subject matter like 'making money' (which is a very subjective issue) is HIGHLY SCRUTINIZED.

        Whether people realize it or not, choosing to make your living (or most of it) in an industry where people constantly BASH YOU (some of it deserved, a lot of it not) is not exactly an IDEAL place to be incredibly happy. Sure, you can just ignore those people, but it really is nearly impossible to do so. We're all HUMAN and it just doesn't work that way.

        So speaking for myself... I really do love to teach and I really do love to help people (and hopefully change their family's lives) but I don't want to spend my entire life DOING THE SAME THING - regardless of what that is.

        As an entrepreneur, I get excited and passionate about cultivating ideas. Well, for the past few years since I've been an IM guru there hasn't been a lot of free time to pursue other business projects. I've certainly pursued some, but nowhere near as many as I could if I wasn't so tied into a company where *I* was the product itself and its growth (or not) had everything to do with me cranking out more products.

        So I think what you're seeing with a lot of marketers that are 'retiring' from the guru world is that they are simply moving on to other pursuits. Some in the same market (like Filsaime) and some away from the same market.

        I also don't think the announcements (at least 95% of them) are some sort of marketing 'trick' to create scarcity or whatever. I believe these guys when they say they are going to stop producing make money courses. Now certainly I don't doubt that many may return and do it again in the future, but I do think their 'announcements' are sincere.

        Again, I can't speak for anyone else, but I really do think it's all about BEING HAPPY. I personally don't want to be an IM guru much longer and I've already got some things "in motion" that will allow me to transition away from it. I'm just ready to move on and do other things. One of the projects I'm really excited about is building things for the iPhone. I think that would be a blast. But who knows... in 5 years I'll probably be sick of that too.

        -John Reese
        This dude has game. Spot on.
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      • Profile picture of the author fred67
        Originally Posted by John_Reese View Post

        Since a lot of people consider me a 'guru' (hate that term) and I am also good friends with many (not all) of the marketers 'leaving' the IM space, I thought I'd chime in with my two cents...

        etc, etc :-)

        Again, I can't speak for anyone else, but I really do think it's all about BEING HAPPY. I personally don't want to be an IM guru much longer and I've already got some things "in motion" that will allow me to transition away from it. I'm just ready to move on and do other things. One of the projects I'm really excited about is building things for the iPhone. I think that would be a blast. But who knows... in 5 years I'll probably be sick of that too.

        -John Reese
        The full response was great, but this last paragraph was 'really' honest :-)
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        • The "guru" in my space (website flipping) just announced that he's getting out of the IM game too. I'm referring to Justin Brooke of SiteFling.

          Like John Reese already stated, I think these guys are just moving on to other challenges and opportunities.

          Even those of us that aren't gurus have experienced this if you've done IM long enough. I've been doing consumer-niche marketing since I got in this business in 2005. Now 5 years later I'm trying to transition to creating my own products and services for the IM community so I'm going the opposite direction.

          The point is, all of us in this business evolve. Why shouldn't we expect the gurus to do the same?

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          • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
            About once a year (it seems) Entrepreneur magazine has an article (or two) about serial entrepreneurs. These are entrepreneurs that love the challenge of creating something new or doing something new. So I'm not surprised at seeing some of them go onto to different things. Some of them are that way to a fault. Some of us have to combat our serial entrepreneurism to ensure that we stay focused on the current project at hand.......

            RoD

            P.S. <Grabs more popcorn>...........
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            • Profile picture of the author IMStudentforlife
              Originally Posted by JustVisiting View Post

              I don't blame them for quitting.

              Must be pretty soul-destroying dealing with customers who expect everything to be handed to them on a plate for $29 - $67.

              And then 20% - 40% demand their money back after 2 minutes to 60 days of purchase.
              Also dealing with just all the haters too.. Not sure why anyone would want to put this on themselves other than money/greed (just my take on things). Personally I'd never want to be known as a "guru" on any type of topic/subject, I have specialties that I excel at, as do we all.. I try to focus on my strengths but keep my weaknesses in check.

              But it seems as soon as you claim anything along those lines, you open yourself up as a target..

              Besides like my nickname says "I'm a student for life", always learning new things. Retraining yourself, picking up tips, or discovering new programs/websites that make life easier..

              Just my take on things is all..

              Originally Posted by Fox30 View Post

              Why do people worry about what other people are doing? Get to work!
              I agree with you, plus the coffee rush is wearing off!
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  • Profile picture of the author JD Nunes
    I think the new FTC guidelines play a part in this - not to say that the gurus are running scared, because most of them know what they're doing. But you can discuss FTC stuff here: http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ffiliates.html
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  • Profile picture of the author silverbax
    It's pretty obvious that once one of these guys gets an idea, a bunch of the others rush to do the same thing.
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    • Profile picture of the author silverbax
      I appreciate John's frankness in his post. I make quite a bit online, but I've never really wanted to go into the 'expert' method of marketing, because, as John says 'YOU are the product.' Sometimes it works, i.e., Dave Ramsey, Martha Stewart, Bob Vila...but you are giving up a LOT...hard to move into another market, hard to scale, etc.
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  • I think that many people have starting points in their careers. And as they achieve their goals, they are always looking for other challenges.

    The FTC rules really shouldn't affect those who are factual in what they offer. It is sort of like the commercials on TV that say "this is a commercial" or "closed course" or "actor portrayal" and so on.......

    There will always be a market for the IM world. New people are always coming onto the net and many have little idea of what they are doing.....so, there will remain opportunities for those with the answers for those questions.
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  • Profile picture of the author Taylor French
    It's not just gurus who are retiring from selling IM courses. I have several friends who aren't as well known as some of the major gurus, but have been doing ok selling "how to" courses for making money who are also getting out of it.

    Part of it has to do with the new FTC rules, but it's more about the fact that it's harder and harder to sell in the IM niche. Take a look at the WSO forum, for example. I saw a few WSOs get pushed down near the bottom of page one within a couple of hours of posting. It's crazy how many people are trying to cater to this one niche every day.

    The IM niche is relatively closed. Most people who would be in the market to buy "how to make money" products end up in a few places. The WF and a few other places are where most of them land.

    In other niches, there isn't such a massive gathering of people to be marketed to. So naturally a lot of newbies flock straight to the IM niche, because they can simply peddle their wares to a gathering of thousands of potential customers in one place.

    Even if you can find a large forum in a niche outside of IM, they don't have a "WSO" forum where you can post to sell your stuff. Most of them highly discourage advertising. So it's not as easy to reach customers in other niches if you're a newbie and you don't know what you're doing as it is to just throw together a package of some sort and post a WSO or whatever.

    Once you reach the level of knowledge that some of the gurus have, it's potentially more profitable to branch out into other stuff.

    Plus, I've read several times recently that people who are "friends" with some of the "gurus" have been told that the recent high-ticket launches have not fared as well as hoped. In fact, I've outright heard that a few of them pretty much failed completely. That might have something to do with a few of the ones who are leaving.
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    • Profile picture of the author Popstar
      Originally Posted by Taylor French View Post

      Plus, I've read several times recently that people who are "friends" with some of the "gurus" have been told that the recent high-ticket launches have not fared as well as hoped. In fact, I've outright heard that a few of them pretty much failed completely. That might have something to do with a few of the ones who are leaving.
      I think we were typing at the same time. I think Taylor hit the nail on the head with this statement.
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  • Profile picture of the author Popstar
    If you've purchased any of the high-ticket launches in the last couple of years only to see them given away as free bonuses shortly after, I think you have the answer.

    The big, easy money just isn't there anymore. Customers are cheaper and demanding higher quality everyday.

    Otherwise, who would give away an in-demand, high-priced product?

    Personally, I question some of the numbers I hear... when someone tells you how big their list is, that doesn't mean anything. It's how big their BUYERS list is and a lot of times, it isn't that big.

    You also hear big revenue numbers thrown around for these launches. But after affiliate payments, how much are they really taking home?

    I just don't believe the numbers are that big... especially not when compared to other types of businesses.

    If you compare what some of these guys make (or say they make) to most people's salaries, the numbers may sound big. But if you compare their earnings to what most companies make, they're not even on the map.

    Some of the "retirements" may be due to wanting to do something else. But I'm betting most of them have to do with money.
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  • Profile picture of the author sdentrepreneur
    I am going to quit IM and focus on trying to date super models.....
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      Originally Posted by sdentrepreneur View Post

      I am going to quit IM and focus on trying to date super models.....

      Post of the year! Sounds like a plan. Remember me if you find any with single moms.
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  • Profile picture of the author JamesBone777
    I bought and paid for the shipping of the 7-Figure Code.There were upsells along the way...
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  • Profile picture of the author dsiomtw
    A few random thoughts ...

    1. When money is no longer a big enough motivator (because you've finally made some), you tend to ask yourself "Ok - now what do I REALLY want to do". The trick is finding something you truly enjoy that will still allow you to make the kind of money you're used to ...

    2. There are more "underground" affiliate marketers that make 7 figures a year than there are "gurus" that make 7 figures a year. A LOT more. If you want a lifestyle business, the former is the way to go.

    3. Having made some money, some are moving on to create "real" businesses. The kind that get bought out for 8-10 figures. If you don't want/need the freedom of a lifestyle business you might as well build a "real" business.

    4. Being a "guru" is hard work. If you don't make a whole lot of money now you might think the money they make should make it all worthwhile, but believe me, that's not the case.

    5. Like Reese said, when you ARE the product/business, you are limited. You might be able to make good money, but it's still not a great business model. All you really have is a high paying job.

    6. Many of the MMO "gurus" have known all along that what they do is not "cool." A tiny handful actually put out great products and care about their customers, but most don't. Deep inside, most of them feel "dirty" and are ashamed about what they do. Now that they have made some easy money they can move on to more "legit" things.

    7. A few are just too burnt out to continue and truly are retiring with what they have. They can drop a mil in cash on a nice house, and just do little projects here and there and live out the rest of their lives being "happy" and doing what they want - play golf every day, travel, or whatever that might be.
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    • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
      Originally Posted by dsiomtw View Post


      Having made some money, some are moving on to create "real" businesses. The kind that get bought out for 8-10 figures. If you don't want/need the freedom of a lifestyle business you might as well build a "real" business.
      Wow, I didn't know that anything under a $10 million to $9.9 billion launch doesn't qualify as a "real" business! I guess that means the majority of the world's commerce doesn't exist, except as a "lifestyle.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jacer
        Originally Posted by Greg guitar View Post

        Wow, I didn't know that anything under a $10 million to $9.9 billion launch doesn't qualify as a "real" business! I guess that means the majority of the world's commerce doesn't exist, except as a "lifestyle.
        No, its just a matter of them leveraging. If you could spend the same time on a $5M business that you do on a $50M business, which would you run?
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  • Profile picture of the author homeworkin
    I am getting a lot more email from some of the "retired" folks. Seriously though, I think a lot of people who do well in this field are itching to try new things and do new things. That is what made them successful in IM. Moving on gives them the chance to do new stuff.

    I am putting plans in place to potentially sell one of my retail sites within a year or so. I expect to get quite a bit of money for it, if similar site sales are anything to go by. It is a great business, but after almost 4 years I am growing weary of it and want to move on. As a serial entrepreneur, the challenge for me is in creating a business. I get bored with running one.

    I suspect many of these guys feel the same way.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bayo
    It's a natural process of change and growth of the industry.

    You can list at least 10 'names', both male and female that seem to have disappeared into the ether. The internet is no longer what it used to be and the average person can have a business that looks and feels (and might be even better) than what the gurus had/have.

    The same graphic designers create sites and mini-stes for others. THe same copywriters write copy for anyone who can pay for it and at affordable rates etc

    Growth isn't a bad thing and let's welcome along the new generation ...
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    • Profile picture of the author Sam Mlambo
      Originally Posted by Bayo View Post

      It's a natural process of change and growth of the industry.

      You can list at least 10 'names', both male and female that seem to have disappeared into the ether. The internet is no longer what it used to be and the average person can have a business that looks and feels (and might be even better) than what the gurus had/have.

      The same graphic designers create sites and mini-stes for others. THe same copywriters write copy for anyone who can pay for it and at affordable rates etc

      Growth isn't a bad thing and let's welcome along the new generation ...
      I agree with this. If "Gurus" are leaving the market space then become more aggressive and fill that void!

      And to comment on what John Reese said, I believe to that the gurus are leaving to pursue other ambitions. My life plan doesn't include internet marketing for the rest of my life. I intend to do other ventures as well. So I can totally understand why they would want to leave.
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  • Profile picture of the author havplenty
    I'll believe it when I see it. Mark Joyner left IM (apparently), but you wouldn't be able to tell from the number of email he sends to people on hist list.

    Speaking of which, I have been trying to unsubscribe from his list for about 2 weeks now. Anyone know how?

    Hav
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  • Profile picture of the author dsiomtw
    Not the case. I've been disclosing affiliate links for awhile and it hasn't hurt sales. In many cases it produces more because people appreciate the transparency.
    My point was that the "gurus" won't be able to continue doing what they've been doing, and in order to be FTC compliant they would have to do things in a way that will decrease sales.

    I'm pretty sure we can all agree on that and I don't need to outline all the scammy ways that "gurus" promote each others' products, the lies, the deception, giving their "highest endorsement" when they haven't even reviewed the product, etc. etc. etc.

    (Not pointing any fingers at anyone in particular, especially you John. I appreciate your participation in this thread and I think you're a pretty stand up guy. I just wish you would have taken my advice about BlogRush!)

    But if you don't think that Kern, who has been "ruined" by the Feds once already, is thinking about this as he decides where to steer his business going forward, well ... I'd have to disagree. He'll be the first to tell you he doesn't want anything to do with the Feds ever again.
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by dsiomtw View Post

      My point was that the "gurus" won't be able to continue doing what they've been doing, and in order to be FTC compliant they would have to do things in a way that will decrease sales.

      I'm pretty sure we can all agree on that and I don't need to outline all the scammy ways that "gurus" promote each others' products, the lies, the deception, giving their "highest endorsement" when they haven't even reviewed the product, etc. etc. etc.

      (Not pointing any fingers at anyone in particular, especially you John. I appreciate your participation in this thread and I think you're a pretty stand up guy. I just wish you would have taken my advice about BlogRush!)

      But if you don't think that Kern, who has been "ruined" by the Feds once already, is thinking about this as he decides where to steer his business going forward, well ... I'd have to disagree. He'll be the first to tell you he doesn't want anything to do with the Feds ever again.
      You're right on a lot of points here (maybe all), of course. Yet, it is not fully the fault of "gurus". The blame largely lies in the inactivity of the people who buy into the hype and sizzle but fail to take action, including making use of whatever product or service they're buying into. This, however, doesn't eradicate the fact that many (not necessarily most) of these "gurus" are preying on broke people's desperation and need to make money ASAP, and have no compunctions about using deceptive means to take them for all they've got (eg using high-pressure telemarketers for this purpose). They don't care if it is retirement savings or other necessary nest-eggs for someone's well-being, will make grandiose promises, and leave nary a means of backing out of the "deal" (check out www.RipoffReport.com). If FTC rules help curtail this, great.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by dsiomtw View Post

      But if you don't think that Kern, who has been "ruined" by the Feds once already, is thinking about this as he decides where to steer his business going forward, well ... I'd have to disagree. He'll be the first to tell you he doesn't want anything to do with the Feds ever again.
      The last video I saw from Kern indicated he was starting to run with a much bigger pack of dogs - ones with real budgets for what he teaches, not 'is there room on my credit card for another month'...

      As far as the FTC, Kern has more than enough reason to want to avoid them. He's touched the stove and burned himself. I believe he's also smart enough to know he doesn't have to fear the stove as long as he doesn't stick his hand on it again.

      On a side note, it was kind of weird watching Frank Kern sitting behind a desk in a sport coat and dress shirt. He's come along way from "buy my ****, dude!"
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  • Profile picture of the author dsiomtw
    I disagree that it's the buyers' fault in any way. Sure I agree people shouldn't be so gullible, but it's human nature and that's not going to change. The "blame" can rest only on those that are using the deceptive tactics to sell product.
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  • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
    So basically the IM niche isn't that easy to stay constantly fresh in, the workload/hassle to joy quotient doesn't stack up any more in comparisom to other business models .

    Being the focus of attention is cool for a bit but eventually the scrutiny and constantly being in the limelight in order to make the bucks gets tired and frankly and there's more to life than teaching people how to make money online.

    Bailing IM to do other more enjoyable things seems perfectly sensible , life > money.

    Wish em all the best.

    (The FTC stuff isn't that hard to get around for honest marketers , I don't see it as logical reasoning as to why people like Reese would get out).
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    I don't see why people find this so strange.

    I know many people join in IM niche because of promises of quick easy money, but most realise that any sustainable income requires a decent level of focus and effort.

    When you sit down and think about what's really important in life - it's nothing to do with sitting at your PC or making info products - it's about your relationships and how you spend your time.

    Finding that balance between doing what you love and paying the bills is what takes up most peoples lives.

    If you finally had enough money to not need to do anything for the money - what would YOU do with your time?

    I've been doing a lot of changing myself in the last few months based on asking myself these same questions.

    Since IM is a skill that can be used to support almost anything, I can't see myself not doing IM, but bringing more music back into my life is definitely a big focus for me now and building in a way to make money doing a music related activity is part of my plans.

    I love helping people, so I'll still do some IM coaching but probably transition much of that over to life coaching later in the year and the IM stuff will end up just as activity that promotes my businesses.

    IM is fun and interesting, but with so much mis-information and greed around, it's getting harder and harder to actually get through to people that need help and help them without them always arguing "but xxx told me to do it this way" to everything you say.

    I'll probably do some seminars for local businesses and teach people one-on-one but only because I enjoy it.

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  • Profile picture of the author aaronlamont
    :-) Maybe they are just trying to be nice and let some other people make money from internet marketing haha
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  • Profile picture of the author PLR Basket
    I personally don't see myself working with the IM crowd for ten years. Suits always seem to catch up eventually...

    My goal is to use IM as a spring board to other fields, like real estate per instance...

    I know it might be even more risky in terms of legal woes than IM, but that's what I always wanted to do...
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  • Profile picture of the author tradermike2008
    I think you should take what John Reese said at face value. If you were in the IM niche and selling IM products you would probably get bored of it after awhile. You are teaching the same thing over and over again. You would eventually want to try something different or change your business model expand find new challenges.

    Then also maybe the niche is changing. There have been some failed launches this year. Stompernet being the biggest name that flopped. And continuity in the IM is not that easy. You are appealing to what are going to be a lot of bottom of the barrel people - people desperate to make money and people who are basically losers that will buy courses and never use the information. All of that translates into high refunds and then of course personal attacks and bashing as people blame others for being losers themselves.

    So I think it could be a tough niche to make money with continuity, you get a lot of refunds, and after you do it for years you are going to run out of new things to teach.

    So at some point you probably would want to get involved in other things. I think it would be extremely difficult to bulid a continuity business selling information in the IM niche. Software and services would be fairly easy - but info you are going to need masses of people to make it a huge business. Biggest is probably Glazer/Kennedy but I bet they have a huge turnover of people too.

    I'm in the stock market niche and sell a "continuity" membersip. My refund rate is about 10% and have customers who stay forever, very little turnover. But people are in the stock market for life and it isn't a one shot teach you this info deal, but information about the news and market which is always changing so it is different than IM - plus the people have more money and generally are more serious. I bring this up for comparison sake.
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  • Profile picture of the author talfighel
    Maybe they have made enough money and they are just tired of doing business online that they want to "retire" and do something else and not online.

    Not everyone wants to do this forever after they got the money out of the way and they can retire comfortably.

    Tal
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  • Profile picture of the author lina75
    They are just not as effective a Guru anymore, they can't even make a newbie earn a small portion of what they used to earn so they are getting slam by newbies from all direction and their refunds rate are also increasing as ever.
    Their list is also becoming non responsive as they keep spamming rubbish after rubbish hoping we kept on buying. I just hate all these Gurus- so far yet to meet one who is really sincere.
    Have you seen any guru who did a follow up to those that bought their wso or product and asked them, about their progress? What are the difficulties they are having, how much are they making right now after following their manual, why are they not following what is taught in the manual and what can they offer to Help?

    Most of them just don't, some that do are just doing it for formality sake. So I think All this old timers should just hang their gloves, we need new breed of Gurus who are sincere and responsible because people look up to them hoping to be successful.

    This is Just my opinion and directed to all Gurus because I have been living in a cave following them.
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    • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
      Originally Posted by lina75 View Post

      They are just not as effective a Guru anymore, they can't even make a newbie earn a small portion of what they used to earn so they are getting slam by newbies from all direction and their refunds rate are also increasing as ever.
      Their list is also becoming non responsive as they keep spamming rubbish after rubbish hoping we kept on buying. I just hate all these Gurus- so far yet to meet one who is really sincere.
      Have you seen any guru who did a follow up to those that bought their wso or product and asked them, about their progress? What are the difficulties they are having, how much are they making right now after following their manual, why are they not following what is taught in the manual and what can they offer to Help?

      Most of them just don't, some that do are just doing it for formality sake. So I think All this old timers should just hang their gloves, we need new breed of Gurus who are sincere and responsible because people look up to them hoping to be successful.

      This is Just my opinion and directed to all Gurus because I have been living in a cave following them.
      Are you kidding? After you buy their WSO product for $17 that shows you how to make thousands a month if you apply yourself, and they've made themselves available for questions, you're going to whine that they aren't following up personally with every buyer? They never promised that; in fact a big part of the IM lifestyle most of us aspire to is being able to use automation and outsourcing to make money on autopilot. That's in a lot of the courses too. Do you really expect the guru to teach you how to make money "hands off", while denying himself the same benefit, by holding your hand all the way?

      I've seen complaints of rising refund rates before, usually from whiners that are selling make money products, rather than the whining buyers. Whichever direction the whines are coming from, I have yet to see anyone offer data to back up their claim of rising refund rates.

      As far as gurus not being sincere, it sounds to me like you expect them to be more sincere than you are in putting their advice into practice. Your language in the first sentence reveals a flawed mindset; no guru ever could "make a newbie earn" anything. The majority of what I've seen gurus selling actually works-it may not always be original, but it usually includes solid marketing information.

      The big problem for the student is how to get yourself to follow through, because follow through is the difference in most cases between failure and success regardless whose system you are using.

      Now quit your whining and get back to work!

      End of rant.
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  • Profile picture of the author dimatrix
    Banned
    Yeah, i think it has to do with this 'FTC' thing. But if that's the case, it's nothing to be worried about. I believe the time to get in is now! The IM world is still a very huge market for profit, all you have to do is be honest about your claims and give quality stuff.
    Breaking News: I'm not quitting, so don't be afraid
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  • Profile picture of the author dsiomtw
    Someone made a good point in that it's pretty darn difficult to build a long-term business, or do anything based on continuity, when your market is MMO newbies. We all know that the majority don't make it and "give up" in one way or another within a very short time.

    Yeah you can make a lot of money off newbies who only stick in your continuity program for 3 months when you have 500 a day signing up for it, but in the end you're not really adding much value to the world so unless you just don't care it's definitely not an ideal model.

    (MMO newbies are GREAT to build a lead-gen business around though since there's a constant stream of them, that if anything, is only going to keep growing!)

    On the flip side, if your target customer is more advanced - the kind that buy $1000 courses - there's only so much you can sell them. As others have said, all aspects of making money online can be boiled down into 1 good course and after that you're really just doing them a disservice by selling them more info.
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  • Profile picture of the author DamianLeon
    I have a feeling a lot of people commenting have a "lack mentality" and resentment against the rich- now could that lead to some self sabotage? ?
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by DamianLeon View Post

      I have a feeling a lot of people commenting have a "lack mentality" and resentment against the rich
      And some of us have made quite a healthy six-figure living helping the seven- and eight-figure rich to make their living. Go ahead and tell me I settled for crumbs. It's not like you got any of them.
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    • Profile picture of the author Silas Hart
      Originally Posted by DamianLeon View Post

      I have a feeling a lot of people commenting have a "lack mentality" and resentment against the rich- now could that lead to some self sabotage? ?
      Didn't someone tell you that every single person on WarriorForum makes $291,128 a month?!

      People who create an image who are called Guru's or have referred to themselves as Guru's are leaving because "Internet Marketing" is a step in what everyone is really trying to do... and that's make money.

      Are there 'Guru's' that are leaving their products due to FTC pressing their rules? I wouldn't doubt it. Many are making residual income off of items with fake testimonials, the selling of things that can not really produce a similar income or results that are claimed? Absolutely. Let's not play stupid.

      Are there people moving on to bigger and better things? Sure, at some point, people get old and can afford to retire. Some want to spend time with their families. At some point people are no longer interested in what they are doing or what they were selling. Some people want to invest their time and money into things more profitable. Some have managed to pull themselves out of a financial hole that made them interested in IM in the first place.

      With all this said, who all really knows but the people no longer interested?
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  • Profile picture of the author Derek Allen
    I say screw em'!! I'll be your new guru! j/j!
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    My Blog + Cool Stuff>> Self Made CEO
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  • Profile picture of the author tmdassc
    I think it can be attributed to an article I read in a mail order rag awhile back. The article was titled "Are You Niched Too Tight?" by Anne Marie Baugh.

    She points out that niche marketing is the buzzword that has vibrated across the internet for a few solid years and is a proven strategy that has worked. However, as with all things, times have changed and if you're niched in too tight, it may hurt or even fatally wound your business.

    She goes on to say that environments change and so do markets and marketing strategies... and now is the time to widen your peripheral vision and begin to market to other niches.

    Diversifying your revenue stream allows you to create tremendous stability for your business and you will not be depending on one industry or niche for income... which is smart business for long term success.

    As Anne further pointed out, every niche or industry has it's cycle. It may be four years up and four years down. If you don't want to be stuck on an industrys' or niches' economic roller coaster... it's time to seek out new ventures to explore.

    The point is, whether it's IM or some other niche, one literally needs to step out of the box that we all put ourselves into and build a plan that incorporates the wider vision. You don't have to necessarily quit your niche, but at the same time, do not get niched in so tight you can't see the bigger picture.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kunle Olomofe
    FACT: When someone reaches a peak period in his career or age-wise and maybe can't perform as well as he used to, he retires or desires to (he may come back if and when he feels renewed or reinvigorated or just plain bored with whatever else he chose to do. That's he's prerogative.

    When you are conceived your growth starts, and doesn't stop until a particular stage, sometime in your teen years. Then you start growing in other ways mentally and emotionally. As for working, your energy starts too ebb as you grow older and you slow down or just WANT to slow down and REST after so many years working hard.

    You want to REST a bit and just ENJOY life.

    Finally, you will die and seize to exist physically. You just got fully retired.

    So, this question is like asking why are all the old timers in the real world dying!!!

    Oh Lord the heavens must be falling.

    Seriously, I wish more sensible discussions would prevail.

    Frankly, that would be time better spent. Some really good discussions are ignored (I see a lot of those threads) for sensational ones like this.

    I hardly post to these types of convos except when I've read through and haven't really seen anyone say what it so plain obvious like "IT IS PART OF LIFE you know"?

    I mean really.

    As for guru bashing, I don't even know what that means, are folks saying when someone is blatantly feeding innocents horse manure as a delicacy no one should say a word?

    That's an interesting angle. If I was doing something wrong I would welcome the opportunity to defend myself and be corrected or be absolved if I was right and wrongly accused. I understand though that these can get out of hand so maybe best left out of forums and generally even (in some rare cases).

    But frankly I would not keep silent when I see blatant misleading comments about marketing that I know will only cause pain for some of the folks I'm trying to help.

    If you call that bashing that's your view you're welcome to it.

    If you THINK I am misleading people, PLEASE speak up so I can correct myself or prove myself right.

    I know a lot of folks on here think of me as being against gurus, well, they're wrong.

    There are a lot of top dogs I truly admire and love, Allen Says (not because he owns this forum but because that guy is a really stand up guy as far as all my relations with him business-wise only have gone-he doesn't BS or mislead and gives up the best stuff for pennies or free and in brief reports, want to be like that someday, Dan Kennedy, Joe Vitale, Sam Robbins, Tony Robbins, the late Jim Rohn, Jimmy D Brown, a few others I can't remember now, those I speak up against are some of those I personally know behind the scenes (or I know from experience they are just blowing smoke up people's rears), who are feeding the public with stuff that really is falsified or made up to look prettier and they don't care who gets hurt as long as they make money.

    I have had some of them approach me to do unethical stuff and because I refused turned their backs on me. When I see folks like that leading a crowd of unsuspecting people I WILL speak up. Sue me if you think that's bashing, I'll see you in court.

    Otherwise, be quiet as you always are... Martin Niemoller's famous quote comes to mind at this juncture.

    By the way I'm not advocating attacking people publicly if you have a gripe try to fix it in private and give the person (who is human and therefore flawed by default) a chance to make amends. If they stubbornly choose not to, they turn you away or try to pull the wool over your eyes you should speak out after giving them the chance privately to correct themselves and they failed to do so.

    Doing otherwise is encouraging corruption in one form or the other.

    In the end handle it as you see fit, I'm not perfect, in fact I am FAR from perfect, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't speak up when I see blatant injustices. I personally welcome being approached if you have a gripe, how else do we make sure things continue to go smoothly and are corrected where and when necessary if we leave things to rot before our eyes?!

    As for retiring, I will eventually do so myself one day when the energy and passion is all but totally spent (OR totally spent) or when/if my better half makes demands on my time to make time for just us etc, if people think that's being gimmicky after all said and done, then they are welcome to their thoughts. That too, is part of life.

    Wishing all he really retiring gurus a well deserved time away from the "grind"--because contrary to popular opinion the Im business can sometimes and even often be that---a daily grind--no matter how automated and EASY it gets, it's still has to be run by humans and deal with humans so it MUST contain flaws that will ebb your energies one way or another.

    Nuf said

    Kunle Olomofe
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  • Profile picture of the author James Schramko
    The IM community is small fry compared to the monster category Mike Filsaime is chasing. He wants to be bigger than Paypal. Just a small slice of that market will be very lucrative. He is ambitious and loves a challenge.

    One other Guru is chasing a public float for his IM entity because he has business building in his blood.

    Others are chasing the mega large personal development / wealth mindset market because they see the Internet Marketing niche is maturing enough to take them mainstream and they can cash in on reputation.

    If nobody is opening house list emails anymore, PPC accounts are frozen, FTC regulations are tightening and the consumer market is getting wise to quality and tired of re-hashes and they demand accountability then it is a great time to move on to new missions.
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    • Profile picture of the author slashy
      If I was in the internet marketing niche I would also bail out.

      I find being in the internet marketing niche quit a pain in the a** because its always changing.

      Imagine if for months I was working on a info product on how to make money with Google adwords then Google does what they know best and changes the way they view quality score, they then ban adwords advertisers for a reason only known to them?

      What will I do with my months hard work? To even make it worse what if I've launched my product on adwords and this happens? The number of refunds would be high because the people who bought my product will find things changed when they try to implement what I've thought them.

      Where else in the other niches its sort of a place and forget. Example the weight loss niche, no matter what may happen it will never change. You don't need to keep up with the trends because to lose weight you just have to exercise or diet. The only thing needed is a person to tell you how to do it.

      So once I have my weight loss product in front of my customers (fatty people) I can relax , make money, and take a vacation without worrying that exercising can one day stop in helping people loss weight.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by slashy View Post

        I find being in the internet marketing niche quit a pain in the a** because its always changing.
        *COUGH*

        "Dammit, why do I have to keep improving my products and staying up to date with changes in my industry? Why should I have to comply with all these damn regulations? WTF, some other company has a product that competes with us! How rude!"

        Some people just shouldn't even be in business.
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        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      As for guru bashing, I don't even know what that means, are folks saying when someone is blatantly feeding innocents horse manure as a delicacy no one should say a word?
      Kunle, there's a difference between bashing someone for "feeding horse manure to innocents" and bashing anyone who has seen a big payday in public.

      Many of the bashers getting bashed here seem to resent anyone who has more than they do, and somehow equate charging for products as "scamming"...

      Another segment is awfully loose with their definition of "guru" - kind of like the definition of a "star" in the US entertainment industry.

      To paint all "gurus" as liars, cheats and thieves is as inaccurate as painting all Nigerians as scammers...
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      • Profile picture of the author Kunle Olomofe
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        To paint all "gurus" as liars, cheats and thieves is as inaccurate as painting all Nigerians as scammers...
        John,

        Oh yes, I know of the people you speak of who bash out of envy or feel being made to pay for products is being scammed or who generalize like illiterates and say stuff like all Nigerians are scammers or all Americans are spammers, or all gurus are thieves, but they really ought to be excused.

        Why? Simple. They are half wits. You don't expect a half wit to talk or think like a full featured man/woman that would be asking half too much...

        Seriously though, the latter is not what I'm advocating, I'm sure you got that from the rest of my post. I'm advocating taking care of our community so the thieves don't mingle with the real gurus and non-gurus. If that wasn't clear from what I said, I ought to have made it clearer... I hope I have this time

        Kunle
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Kunle Olomofe View Post

          John,

          Oh yes, I know of the people you speak of who bash out of envy or feel being made to pay for products is being scammed or who generalize like illiterates and say stuff like all Nigerians are scammers or all Americans are spammers, or all gurus are thieves, but they really ought to be excused.

          Why? Simple. They are half wits. You don't expect a half wit to talk or think like a full featured man/woman that would be asking half too much...

          Seriously though, the latter is not what I'm advocating, I'm sure you got that from the rest of my post. I'm advocating taking care of our community so the thieves don't mingle with the real gurus and non-gurus. If that wasn't clear from what I said, I ought to have made it clearer... I hope I have this time

          Kunle
          Oh .. you mean that I really can make thousands and thousands in my sleep if I just buy that product and that I really will buy a car and house and boat just like the ones in the header? Silly me for disbelieving the hype and expecting more from a seller, whether they are a guru or piss ant.

          I don't disparage against Nigerians or gooorus but exercise due diligence in both cases due to the fact that most of the email I get from some King or Queen promising me millions is from Nigeria and most of the sales letters I see are also full of unfounded promises and overhype to the extreme. Has nothing to do with envy. I don't envy rich people. They have money and their share of problems as well. They're just people. Some are honest ... some are not.
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    • Profile picture of the author Justin Wheeler
      Originally Posted by James Schramko View Post

      One other Guru is chasing a public float for his IM entity because he has business building in his blood.

      That sounds interesting. Any hints as to who?
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  • Profile picture of the author dsiomtw
    Filsaime wants to be bigger than PayPal? That's pretty ambitious.

    There are always challenges. For example, one of his "new" sites is PayPeopleOnline.com. Sounds like a somewhat boring but needed service that he is charging for.

    The problem is that another company with deeper pockets just added the exact same functionality to their free accounting platform today.

    This other company has close to 10 million in funding and they are way ahead of Mike already. So I'd say his PayPeopleOnline project is already dead before it got started.

    That's a big problem with offering services ... like info I guess. I don't know if they got the idea from Mike's site or not, but the minute you launch something that doesn't have a high barrier to entry you'll have one or more people copying your cool new service immediately.

    It's actually more of a problem with services because "big" companies don't mess around selling MMO info products...
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  • Profile picture of the author Emily Meeks
    Whenever I'm asked if I wanna be rich and famous, I say, "Rich but not famous."

    Mike Filsaime, Frank Kern, Willie Crawford, etc. are just people too. Very successful, but at the end of the day human beings like the rest of us.

    If they're ready to move on to bigger better things, let 'em.

    We all have our own path to follow.
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by moneysoapbox View Post

      Whenever I'm asked if I wanna be rich and famous, I say, "Rich but not famous."
      <snip>
      Fame has its perks, but a lot of it isn't fun from what I've seen. Most of us have the luxury of a certain amount of anonymity and privacy.
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      Project HERE.

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      • Profile picture of the author DamianLeon
        Judge not lest ye be judged - just food for thought Sure, not everyone is moral or just in top positions in any field, but neither is everyone in low positions either - Actually everyone has their faults and as you have more notoriety both any good thing or mistake you make will be magnified-

        I do hope that everyone remembers in their business to help people at the end of the day, and to give them hope- I've found that the stuff isn't the obstacle for the people, it's the confidence-
        to believe in the intelligence and heart of people and not just see them as "traffic"-

        Remember, to truly encourage your people- and keep yourself out of your way, so they can soar and gain a solid footing to rise up with-

        Through encouragement and trust, they will naturally upgrade themselves and their commitment
        level through your process-

        And, let's remember that the people in the top positions are people too, who make mistakes- I'm sure if all of our activities were broadcast then people would find certain faults also or things they didn't like-

        What I see in leaders is a model of production, to study, and learn from, how they set up business systems as assets, and how they made the distribution to the customer base more efficient-

        It's amazing to think of the potential each of us has, if we don't allow ego or unforgiveness to guide us- but instead are guided by humility and providing more and more value to more and more people - to help them meet their needs-

        Thanks everyone


        Damian
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  • Profile picture of the author ucajack
    Originally Posted by MarketingSPY View Post

    There is a reason many of the Internet Marketing Coaching "Gurus" are bailing and are actually announcing they will not be selling any more IM products anymore.

    If you've not been living in a cave, then you have also noticed this. If these are multi-million dollar businesses, then why quit?

    I would love to hear your opinions.
    Is this correct? i really dont thing they are bailing...
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  • Profile picture of the author xlfutur1
    Sounds like Frank Kern is starting to use his expertise to help individual offline companies and people with their IM. A few clients per year at 100K upfront and a percentage of sales is not a bad way to go.
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  • Profile picture of the author Cash37
    FTC laws. They got to back their sht up now, which many cant.
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  • Profile picture of the author silverbax
    Actually, I heard of Howie Schwartz related to his real gig - venture capital and venture capital events...before I knew of his IM stuff.

    And as for Filsaime, I don't know him but the IM market is nothing like the big scale software market. IM is small potatoes. I saw him talking about the issues they had with TweetGlide, where he said that they had 1,000+ sign ups/new members in a day and it caused scalability problems. The day I read that, I had worked on a project where we had 52,000+ sign ups into a software product in an HOUR. I'm not knocking Mike or TweetGlide, but 1,000 users is NOTHING in the world of big time IT.
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  • Profile picture of the author dsiomtw
    If people who know what they are doing apply their skills to larger mass markets, they can make a lot more money. Period.

    For example, there are CPA affiliates making 5 figures a day promoting health and fitness related offers. There are advertisers in the same market (the ones selling the products) making 7 figures a month. And that is just one big market. There are at least 6-8 more.

    What's happening is actually completely logical. IM "gurus" can only make so much selling info products to wannabe Internet marketers. Sure most people would consider them "rich" but making a few million a year is small potatoes in the business world. They could make a lot more money doing other things, so it's only logical they would look for something new, exciting and more rewarding.
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  • Profile picture of the author DogScout
    Busineess dont go out of business on 20% refund rates, if they sell their products correctly they make money they wouldnt have made if they had soft peddalled the sales process

    Someone said that? Off line, rarely is the net 20% most businesses WOULD go out of business at a 20% refund rate if there over head was at the 100% level.

    And you hard sell enough to get a reputation doing so, NO ONE will buy your stuff.

    Case in point, worked for a car dealer, soft peddled from 85 cars a month to 259 in less than 4 years and the average profit nearly doubled at the same time. Net went from -$120,000/mo to $150,000+ mo on 5-6 mil of sales. Change of management and they are at around 60 losing money again in less than 18 months of pushing the sale. Hard sold their customers until they stopped buying, even the ones that could afford it and needed it stopped coming around.
    Girard was supposed to be a 'legend' but there is a lot behind the scenes and a lot of accounting and book shuffling that made things appear different than what they were.
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  • Profile picture of the author Vagabond 007
    4 pages of people talking about why other people are making the choices they do in THEIR lives.

    Interesting.

    The "gurus" you are all talking about are probably getting a good laugh with this thread.
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  • Profile picture of the author tdpubs
    I totally agree with them if they decide to get back to basics and sell a product or service to people who want to get solutions their problems. I never really thought it was all that wholesome to teach new marketers to be Internet marketers with the ulterior motive of simply making them affiliates for more IM tools instead of really preparing them for the business of selling products to the general population.

    There are those in this forum that have taught me more about the fundamentals of proper IM for a fraction of what it used to cost me to purchase courses from the big gurus. If some of the big names decide to get back to basics, more power to them.

    Dennis Francis
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    <Continues to chew on popcorn and bonbons>
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    "Your personal philosophy is the greatest determining factor in how your life works out."
    - Jim Rohn
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

      <Continues to chew on popcorn and bonbons>
      Damn it Rod! Stop hogging all the snacks.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Damn it Rod! Stop hogging all the snacks.
        I can't help it. I'm hungry and this thread is so entertaining. <Whips out the blender>

        RoD

        P.S. I only know of a couple of people who stated they were transitioning out of the IM niche, but then again that's a constant, we just don't always hear about it. Now back to my chilli verde chicken nachos with extra cheese.......
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        "Your personal philosophy is the greatest determining factor in how your life works out."
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

          I can't help it. I'm hungry and this thread is so entertaining. <Whips out the blender>

          RoD

          P.S. I only know of a couple of people who stated they were transitioning out of the IM niche, but then again that's a constant, we just don't always hear about it. Now back to my chilli verde chicken nachos with extra cheese.......
          Rod, make sure you load up the blender with light rum and square watermelon pulp...

          http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post1654398
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  • Profile picture of the author tradermike2008
    obviously now none of these people were "bailing." It was just bs marketing.
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    • Profile picture of the author dblgdee
      From Wikipedia
      Marketing is the process by which companies determine what products or services may be of interest to customers, and the strategy to use in sales, communications and business development.[1] It is an integrated process through which companies create value for customers and build strong customer relationships in order to capture value from customers in return.[1]

      ??
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  • Profile picture of the author Willie Crawford
    Coaching as the product itself, can be really draining, and usually
    isn't the best use of an expert's time unless coaching is really
    ones passion. That's why most of the "gurus" who do offer
    coaching actually have a team that handles most of that
    coaching.

    Group coaching makes a little more sense for some experts.

    It is a field that can quickly cause burnout though.

    Just my take on it.

    Willie
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