Why is Amazon trying to steal my new ebook?

114 replies
I produced an ebook and released it using paypal in October, then recently released it on Clickbank. Today I was looking over some stats on my server (wiredtree), and had a look at the error log. Of course there were all kinds of attempts to access myphpadmin and others trying to guess my download page or take advantage of frontpage exploits.

I wanted to see where the attacks were coming from, so I gathered some of the IP addresses, and looked them up at ip2location, and I got a shock. One of the addresses was an Amazon.com IP, and they tried to guess my download page 9 different ways. What should I make of this?!?! Thank God I use DLGuard and Xsitepro.
#amazon #ebook #steal
  • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
    My best guess would be an Amazon employee trying to steal when he should be working...
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    • Profile picture of the author ScoTech
      Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

      My best guess would be an Amazon employee trying to steal when he should be working...
      I guess they hire IM hackers now?
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by ScoTech View Post

        I guess they hire IM hackers now?
        No, they hire people to do jobs. Some of those people may do things that Amazon would not approve of if they knew about it.

        I'm lumping this hack attempt from an Amazon IP with the same type of employee screwing around that includes surfing porn sites or doing their shopping on eBay on company time.

        Remember, the OP mentioned that one out of several attempts was traceable to an Amazon IP. That suggests to me that the fact that it was identifiable as Amazon is pure coincidence.

        If Amazon was actively trying to steal ebooks this way, they have the resources to hide their tracks rather than make clumsy attempts to find a download page.
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  • Profile picture of the author talfighel
    I don't think that anyone was trying to steal your ebook. Maybe it was someone from that IP that tried to read your ebook without paying your fee.

    Tal
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    • Profile picture of the author ScoTech
      Originally Posted by talfighel View Post

      I don't think that anyone was trying to steal your ebook. Maybe it was someone from that IP that tried to read your ebook without paying your fee.

      Tal
      Isn't reading my ebook without paying my fee called stealing?
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      • Profile picture of the author cj1966
        Originally Posted by ScoTech View Post

        Isn't reading my ebook without paying my fee called stealing?
        Intresting one. You're assuming that the answer is "yes" and it's not quite so clear cut

        I admit that it sucks when someone tries to read your stuff for free, especially when you know they're doing it eg the infamous request for a refund straight after downloading from the same person for multiple products.

        But... what happens if you forgot to tell search engine spiders not to index you're download page and someone finds your book that way? Is that stealing if they download it? How about if your book says in it that if they haven't paid then it's an illegal copy? How about if the download page says if you haven't paid then your not allowed to press the download button?

        I've lost count at the number of product owners I've contacted (including some very well known warriors selling high price items) to tell them that their product is showing up in google for certian longtail keywords...

        You as a product owner may think that the person should contact you and not download but most people won't feel that they morally have to and you'd be on shaky ground saying that they're stealing.

        And then the leap from that goes to: what if I can guess you're download page? if I try yourhomepage.com/download and it's the product? Personaly I'd consider it stealing but almost everyone I know who isn't in IM would think it was perfectly ok. They'd say that they can go where they like on the web and there's no law to prevent them typing whatever they want in the ulr bar, if you didn't want them in you should have password protected it... these same people would admit it was stealing if they tried to guess the password/login on the download page.

        It's all about perception, and on the whole digital product owners percive things to be a lot more black and white - maybe "harsher"- than the general public. Maybe just how EZ Articles owners percive things a little a little "harsher" than most affiliates here do :p
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        • Profile picture of the author ScoTech
          Well whatever the case, I am glad I protected my product. It is in the travel niche, not in the IM niche, so anyone using IM guessing techniques to try and "Download" it for free was probably up to no good, and not wanting to just read it for themselves.
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          • Profile picture of the author Intrepreneur
            Funny this that an Amazon Ip was on your site, I was checking my logs for some protected directories on one of my sites and it appears an IP from Amazon was rooting around in there. Confusing to wonder why Amazon are in there too.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by Topher Walker View Post

          Intresting one. You're assuming that the answer is "yes" and it's not quite so clear cut
          I keep saying this, but people don't really seem to listen, so I pull it out whenever an example rears its head.

          The problem product creators need to face is that something like 98% of young adults do not believe digital piracy is wrong. It's not that they don't know it's illegal, or that they don't understand they aren't supposed to do it. They simply don't believe it's wrong. They think all the laws and rules and standards that say "don't do it" are wrong.

          These people are either your current market, or they're going to be your market in just a few years. If you sell digital products of any sort, you simply have to understand that most of your customers do not believe it's wrong to pirate those products. Whether they're copying it for a friend, uploading it to a torrent site, or downloading it for free off some web server in Poland... they think this is morally justifiable.

          And morality is not absolute. It's defined by your culture. They're going to be that culture Real Soon Now. So the single biggest question you have to face is how you're going to survive in a culture that believes it's perfectly all right to steal your product and share it for free.
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          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
            Banned
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            • Profile picture of the author whawk57
              it's perfectly all right to steal your product and share it for free.


              Hey CDarklock
              You sure are a real Warrior!


              By the way ScoTech, it's your previous mindset that created this. Fearing too much maybe?

              Peace and Merry Merry Christmas
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              Peace!



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          • Profile picture of the author Puusaari
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            I keep saying this, but people don't really seem to listen, so I pull it out whenever an example rears its head.

            The problem product creators need to face is that something like 98% of young adults do not believe digital piracy is wrong. It's not that they don't know it's illegal, or that they don't understand they aren't supposed to do it. They simply don't believe it's wrong. They think all the laws and rules and standards that say "don't do it" are wrong.

            These people are either your current market, or they're going to be your market in just a few years. If you sell digital products of any sort, you simply have to understand that most of your customers do not believe it's wrong to pirate those products. Whether they're copying it for a friend, uploading it to a torrent site, or downloading it for free off some web server in Poland... they think this is morally justifiable.

            And morality is not absolute. It's defined by your culture. They're going to be that culture Real Soon Now. So the single biggest question you have to face is how you're going to survive in a culture that believes it's perfectly all right to steal your product and share it for free.
            This is so bang on and is exactly why when you create an information product, you should be creating it as a lead generation product. Make sure that you have a system on the backend to make money from. That way even if some people give your ebook away, the people who get it for free may enjoy it and end up being sold on something else in your funnel. Piracy is a fact of life now, don't complain about it, just find a way to profit from it and move on.
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          • Profile picture of the author cj1966
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            I keep saying this, but people don't really seem to listen, so I pull it out whenever an example rears its head.

            The problem product creators need to face is that something like 98% of young adults do not believe digital piracy is wrong. It's not that they don't know it's illegal, or that they don't understand they aren't supposed to do it. They simply don't believe it's wrong. They think all the laws and rules and standards that say "don't do it" are wrong.

            These people are either your current market, or they're going to be your market in just a few years. If you sell digital products of any sort, you simply have to understand that most of your customers do not believe it's wrong to pirate those products. Whether they're copying it for a friend, uploading it to a torrent site, or downloading it for free off some web server in Poland... they think this is morally justifiable.

            And morality is not absolute. It's defined by your culture. They're going to be that culture Real Soon Now. So the single biggest question you have to face is how you're going to survive in a culture that believes it's perfectly all right to steal your product and share it for free.
            Seriously, this is gold.

            The music community got caught with their pants down. You'd think the IM community would be a little bit more forward thinking.
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          • Profile picture of the author Zabrina
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            I keep saying this, but people don't really seem to listen, so I pull it out whenever an example rears its head.

            The problem product creators need to face is that something like 98% of young adults do not believe digital piracy is wrong. It's not that they don't know it's illegal, or that they don't understand they aren't supposed to do it. They simply don't believe it's wrong. They think all the laws and rules and standards that say "don't do it" are wrong.

            These people are either your current market, or they're going to be your market in just a few years. If you sell digital products of any sort, you simply have to understand that most of your customers do not believe it's wrong to pirate those products. Whether they're copying it for a friend, uploading it to a torrent site, or downloading it for free off some web server in Poland... they think this is morally justifiable.

            And morality is not absolute. It's defined by your culture. They're going to be that culture Real Soon Now. So the single biggest question you have to face is how you're going to survive in a culture that believes it's perfectly all right to steal your product and share it for free.
            Excellent point. I had to reply just to thank you for saying this and make a related comment. If music, art, writing, and so on are going to become free (by choice or by force eventually), how will we make money? Something's gotta give. I'm very curious to know how people will begin innovating once they realize that the same old business plan isn't going to cut it soon.
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Zabrina View Post

              Excellent point. I had to reply just to thank you for saying this and make a related comment. If music, art, writing, and so on are going to become free (by choice or by force eventually), how will we make money? Something's gotta give. I'm very curious to know how people will begin innovating once they realize that the same old business plan isn't going to cut it soon.
              Thieves are a dime a dozen. They've been around since the beginning of time and companies are still profitable. You can roll over and play dead or just give up because you actually believe that you can't do anything about it.

              My businesses are profitable. I take some precautions and monitor the whereabouts of my ebooks and file DMCAs where necessary. It works. Rolling over and playing dead or not protecting your products with the fatalistic view that there is nothing you can do is one way of dealing with it, but not the most profitable way of dealing with it.
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              • Profile picture of the author Zabrina
                Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                Thieves are a dime a dozen. They've been around since the beginning of time and companies are still profitable. You can roll over and play dead or just give up because you actually believe that you can't do anything about it.

                My businesses are profitable. I take some precautions and monitor the whereabouts of my ebooks and file DMCAs where necessary. It works. Rolling over and playing dead or not protecting your products with the fatalistic view that there is nothing you can do is one way of dealing with it, but not the most profitable way of dealing with it.
                That's very true, but there's an increasing change in the mindset of the young generation. I witness it for myself every day. To take music as an example, I don't know a single young person who has never illegally downloaded a song, but in the older days, most young people wouldn't dare steal a CD. The pirates are always one step ahead of their targets, and while that doesn't mean sellers should play dead, it does mean we should step back and take a look at the long-term shift in opinions. Artists that have released free albums have enjoyed enormous popularity and later revenue through traditional channels, but what happens when very few people still use traditional channels and most people believe "art should be free"? Do we cling to the old business model until it runs off the railroad tracks?

                Just an attempt at a thought-provoking question.
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            • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
              Originally Posted by Zabrina View Post

              If music, art, writing, and so on are going to become free (by choice or by force eventually), how will we make money?
              The same question was asked when you could record a musician's performance. The musician could perform once, be recorded, and then the owner of that recording could sell it forever. It was widely predicted that music would simply not be performed anymore, and indeed that people would stop writing music because there wasn't enough money in it.

              Because the real money at a live performance isn't in ticket sales, it's in $10 beers and $30 t-shirts. But that would mean musicians couldn't just perform for a percentage of the door anymore. (Comedians still do.) They'd want a percentage of the take... and the venue owners didn't want to bring that up, because normally they were keeping all the profits from the overpriced refreshments and souvenirs.

              But the analogy, I think, is a valid one. We're still very bound up in thinking about digital products the same way we think about physical products, in terms of manufacturing and distribution and marginal costs of production. But I think digital products are a whole different animal. I don't think we can keep thinking about them that way, if we want to remain profitable.

              I think we need to learn from two things: the outcry of the independent musician when recording became possible, and the outcry of the RIAA when digital distribution became ubiquitous. In both cases, the existing business model was decimated by progress, and in both cases - there was nothing you could do to stop it. Adapt or die.

              I believe but cannot prove that there's a way to think about information products and digital goods which will be profitable even if we do nothing whatsoever about piracy. I think there's a specific way you can structure your business that means you make money even if every product you make is distributed for free to anyone that wants it.

              I just don't know what it is yet.

              But if I were to make a gesture in the right direction, my money is on what Eric S. Raymond said about software in the late 1980s: "The software industry is a service industry labouring under the misapprehension that it is a manufacturing industry." Because I think the info-product business has more in common with the software industry than it does with any other.
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              "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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              • Profile picture of the author drmani
                Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                I believe but cannot prove that there's a way to think about information products and digital goods which will be profitable even if we do nothing whatsoever about piracy. I think there's a specific way you can structure your business that means you make money even if every product you make is distributed for free to anyone that wants it.

                I just don't know what it is yet.

                But if I were to make a gesture in the right direction, my money is on what Eric S. Raymond said about software in the late 1980s: "The software industry is a service industry labouring under the misapprehension that it is a manufacturing industry." Because I think the info-product business has more in common with the software industry than it does with any other.
                I explored this thorny dilemma in a couple of recent posts
                on my blog. In one, I said:

                Before writing your book, think about your WHY.

                In your mind, is your book a standalone cash-cow - or is it
                the means to an end? A way to attract that most precious
                commodity... your reader's attention, interest and gain
                mind share?
                and in another post, I wrote:

                It is important to plan and smoothen every bit of the "trust
                curve" - especially focusing on the IMPORTANT PART that comes
                on the 'back-end', not just the mass appeal front-end sale.

                For most authors, the book is a 'loss leader' - the valuable
                asset you practically give-away... in exchange for mindshare
                and trust of your reader.

                What you do with that trust defines your level of successful
                leverage.

                You can make it the foundation of a big business empire.

                Or you can simply miss out on a golden opportunity.
                Of course, when you're creating your first infoproduct, this
                seems CRAZY! You were going to get rich from sales of that
                ebook, and you're sure going to fight tooth and nail to make
                sure no one steals it.

                But in time, you either give up - or get smarter!

                All success
                Dr.Mani
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              • Profile picture of the author Zabrina
                Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                The same question was asked when you could record a musician's performance. The musician could perform once, be recorded, and then the owner of that recording could sell it forever. It was widely predicted that music would simply not be performed anymore, and indeed that people would stop writing music because there wasn't enough money in it.

                Because the real money at a live performance isn't in ticket sales, it's in $10 beers and $30 t-shirts. But that would mean musicians couldn't just perform for a percentage of the door anymore. (Comedians still do.) They'd want a percentage of the take... and the venue owners didn't want to bring that up, because normally they were keeping all the profits from the overpriced refreshments and souvenirs.

                But the analogy, I think, is a valid one. We're still very bound up in thinking about digital products the same way we think about physical products, in terms of manufacturing and distribution and marginal costs of production. But I think digital products are a whole different animal. I don't think we can keep thinking about them that way, if we want to remain profitable.

                I think we need to learn from two things: the outcry of the independent musician when recording became possible, and the outcry of the RIAA when digital distribution became ubiquitous. In both cases, the existing business model was decimated by progress, and in both cases - there was nothing you could do to stop it. Adapt or die.

                I believe but cannot prove that there's a way to think about information products and digital goods which will be profitable even if we do nothing whatsoever about piracy. I think there's a specific way you can structure your business that means you make money even if every product you make is distributed for free to anyone that wants it.

                I just don't know what it is yet.

                But if I were to make a gesture in the right direction, my money is on what Eric S. Raymond said about software in the late 1980s: "The software industry is a service industry labouring under the misapprehension that it is a manufacturing industry." Because I think the info-product business has more in common with the software industry than it does with any other.
                You just expressed my thoughts perfectly, as I couldn't very late last night. I completely agree -- the business model has to change, sooner or later. If we don't adapt early, we risk being run over by the moving machine. And I have that same nagging feeling that there's a perfect business model that isn't modelled on other product businesses, isn't modelled on the pay-to-own/pay-to-read way of doing things now, I just can't put my finger on it. I'm sure some genius will soon, though.

                Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                My target market is not a bunch of brainless music file suckers. Many of them aren't the least bit interested in my ebooks or any ebook that would require that they actually think about making a living or working in some kind of way.

                My ebook is also not a "loss leader". For a month that is normally slow for people, it pulled in a nice $800 or so profit. That's worth protecting to me. If you don't want to do a few things to protect your products, that's certainly your prerogative, but to suggest that you can't do anything about it, and to connect the events of the music industry to the types of products we sell, is just fuzzy logic.
                All right, no need to get offensive. The "bunch of brainless music file suckers" you refer to are somewhere between 40-80% of people. Stating that such a huge percentage of the population is not interested in working is downright misinformed and prejudiced. I know a very successful author who rarely buys music -- he downloads a lot of music and chooses to support the bands he likes most by buying their new CDs. There are a good number of others I know who work hard for a living and don't have a problem sharing their music, movies, and other files.

                You could say you aren't targeting the 14-to-24-year-old range... fair enough. But then what happens as your target market begins to grow older and either change their ways of thinking or die off? Concentrating on the here-and-now, selling to the older segment of the market, is never a good business plan. You have to be able to appeal to the young people, too... and if you do, you gain incredible respect in their eyes.
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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by Zabrina View Post

                  All right, no need to get offensive. The "bunch of brainless music file suckers" you refer to are somewhere between 40-80% of people. Stating that such a huge percentage of the population is not interested in working is downright misinformed and prejudiced. I know a very successful author who rarely buys music -- he downloads a lot of music and chooses to support the bands he likes most by buying their new CDs. There are a good number of others I know who work hard for a living and don't have a problem sharing their music, movies, and other files.
                  I don't share your benevolent attitude towards those who think piracy and theft are just peachy keen. If 80% of the population are indeed thieves, that's 80% that I'm not afraid to offend. Calling it "supporting" a band by buying their music instead of stealing it ... how very nice and charitable of them. Of course you don't mention the music they steal and just don't feel like supporting the band or the movies they watch but don't feel like supporting the hundreds of people trying to make their livings by providing us all with entertainment.

                  You can paint it all with any kind of pretty brush you want to, but it's theft.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Zabrina
                    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                    I don't share your benevolent attitude towards those who think piracy and theft are just peachy keen. If 80% of the population are indeed thieves, that's 80% that I'm not afraid to offend. Calling it "supporting" a band by buying their music instead of stealing it ... how very nice and charitable of them. Of course you don't mention the music they steal and just don't feel like supporting the band or the movies they watch but don't feel like supporting the hundreds of people trying to make their livings by providing us all with entertainment.

                    You can paint it all with any kind of pretty brush you want to, but it's theft.
                    A legalistic definition, sure. I'm not here to share my own opinion on downloading songs without paying for them, I'm just sharing my opinion of what is going to begin happening more and more in the coming years. Radio stations, friends' CD/DVD collections, free digital TV that you don't have to pay a subscriber's fee for, and libraries, among others, have all contributed to the culture that says that "sampling" various media is okay.

                    My most important point is this: it doesn't matter whether we think it's right or wrong. The opinions of a few will not change the minds of the majority. Regardless of whether it's "right" or "wrong", "legal" or "illegal" by today's standards, those standards can be expected to change in the future, and when they do, we will either be ready for it or not. I'm choosing to be ready for it.
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                    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by Zabrina View Post

                      My most important point is this: it doesn't matter whether we think it's right or wrong. The opinions of a few will not change the minds of the majority. Regardless of whether it's "right" or "wrong", "legal" or "illegal" by today's standards, those standards can be expected to change in the future, and when they do, we will either be ready for it or not. I'm choosing to be ready for it.
                      When and if entertainment should decide to give a sample, that is certainly their prerogative adn then it is not stealing. But I guarantee you that entertainment, movies, music, TV will not now or ever become a non-profit organization. Why in the blazes would they? They have something we want and they sell it to us. Always will.

                      Some people think it's ok to steal it. Stealing isn't anything new that the young, hip, music loving industry has just discovered. There have always been thieves.

                      This isn't a music or movie forum. It's an Internet marketing forum and many of us sell products ... websites, information, etc. All this talk about music downloading is just blowing smoke up someone's posterior.

                      I see that you sell stuff .... your time, to be precise. You're a ghostwriter. I imagine that you work at it and expect to be paid for your time. That will never change, but at some point, like most service providers, someone will take your product from you and not pay you .... that is, unless you have a system in place to prevent that sort of thing from happening.

                      whawk57 professes to be a DJ ... and on his website he professes to be a ***gasp*** commercial DJ. What happened to all the peace, let it grow, let it flow? Surely he should be giving his services away ... being a free spirit and all?

                      Most of us are on this forum either to make money by providing a service or product that people want or need or to learn how to. To be so blasé about theft or in the case of whawk57, to actually liken it to sharing in the charitable sense of the word, rather than what it really is ... is dead wrong IMHO.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Zabrina
                        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                        When and if entertainment should decide to give a sample, that is certainly their prerogative adn then it is not stealing. But I guarantee you that entertainment, movies, music, TV will not now or ever become a non-profit organization. Why in the blazes would they? They have something we want and they sell it to us. Always will.

                        Some people think it's ok to steal it. Stealing isn't anything new that the young, hip, music loving industry has just discovered. There have always been thieves.

                        This isn't a music or movie forum. It's an Internet marketing forum and many of us sell products ... websites, information, etc. All this talk about music downloading is just blowing smoke up someone's posterior.

                        I see that you sell stuff .... your time, to be precise. You're a ghostwriter. I imagine that you work at it and expect to be paid for your time. That will never change, but at some point, like most service providers, someone will take your product from you and not pay you .... that is, unless you have a system in place to prevent that sort of thing from happening.

                        whawk57 professes to be a DJ ... and on his website he professes to be a ***gasp*** commercial DJ. What happened to all the peace, let it grow, let it flow? Surely he should be giving his services away ... being a free spirit and all?

                        Most of us are on this forum either to make money by providing a service or product that people want or need or to learn how to. To be so blasé about theft or in the case of whawk57, to actually liken it to sharing in the charitable sense of the word, rather than what it really is ... is dead wrong IMHO.
                        We keep reverting to talking about "is stealing right or wrong?" I think most of us would agree that theft is wrong, but the divisions of stealing versus fair use are growing blurrier with time.

                        I do have a system to detect when my work is stolen, and I usually discover about one or two plagiarized copies of various articles I have written each day. Some are intentional, some are not. Some are malicious, some are not. What if I came up with a business model that meant I didn't care who was publishing my work, because I would gain from it regardless? What if information could be freely shared without malicious intent to harm others? I have bounced these ideas around and experimented a little to come up with ideas, but I still haven't thought of anything substantially different than the existing business model.

                        I'm still with CDarklock on this one.
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    • Profile picture of the author butters
      Originally Posted by talfighel View Post

      I don't think that anyone was trying to steal your ebook. Maybe it was someone from that IP that tried to read your ebook without paying your fee.

      Tal
      Lol, so what your saying is, if I walk into a sweet shop and eat their chocolate bar without paying, thats fine and not breaking the law?
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      • Profile picture of the author cj1966
        Originally Posted by butters View Post

        Lol, so what your saying is, if I walk into a sweet shop and eat their chocolate bar without paying, thats fine and not breaking the law?
        But what if they called the police and the chocloate bar was still there?

        It's more like calling the police because someone is reading a magazine on the magazine rack despite the "no reading, this isn't a library sign"... actually more acurate would be if the person was photocoping the magazine!

        It is a perception thing. It's not a tangable product so people don't see it as stealing.

        Plus the difficult thing is you're basically telling people that there's area's of the intenet that they can't go but not "locking the door" or letting them know that their trespassing... and if you did they wouldn't believe you that you can tell them where they can go.
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        • Profile picture of the author whawk57
          How would you know for sure? Couldn't it be IP spoofing? Blaming on Amazon?
          Signature

          Peace!



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          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
            Banned
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            • Profile picture of the author ScoTech
              Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

              You don't have to know for sure.

              All you have to do is report it to Amazon, with any evidence you can enclose/attach, and let them investigate it (which they will).
              You sound like you have some personal experience with Amazon, care to share?
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              • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                Originally Posted by Topher Walker View Post

                Intresting one. You're assuming that the answer is "yes" and it's not quite so clear cut

                ...

                But... what happens if you forgot to tell search engine spiders not to index you're download page and someone finds your book that way? Is that stealing if they download it? How about if your book says in it that if they haven't paid then it's an illegal copy? How about if the download page says if you haven't paid then your not allowed to press the download button?
                Sorry, it's still stealing. If I take something that doesn't belong to me, it's called theft. You can spin whatever situational ethics you want around it, but that does not change the reality.

                If I forget to close my garage door one night, does that make it okay for anyone driving by to help themselves?

                If I slip down to the shore and load up my cooler with out of season fish, is it okay just because no one can tell I poached them?

                I'm not a particularly religious sort, but I don't recall the commandment reading "thou shalt not steal, unless it's digital"...
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                • Profile picture of the author Terry Edwards
                  Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                  I'm not a particularly religious sort, but I don't recall the commandment reading "thou shalt not steal, unless it's digital"...
                  I agree. And you don't have to be religious to know right from wrong. Taking something you haven't paid for...whether digital or physical...is just plain stealing.

                  Unfortuately, the lines between doing what is right and doing what can be spun to fit any situation have become increasingly blurred. I mean, we even have "Priests" now saying it is OK to steal if you're poor and as long as you do it from bigger box stores.
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                • Profile picture of the author cj1966
                  Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                  Sorry, it's still stealing. If I take something that doesn't belong to me, it's called theft. You can spin whatever situational ethics you want around it, but that does not change the reality.

                  If I forget to close my garage door one night, does that make it okay for anyone driving by to help themselves?

                  If I slip down to the shore and load up my cooler with out of season fish, is it okay just because no one can tell I poached them?

                  I'm not a particularly religious sort, but I don't recall the commandment reading "thou shalt not steal, unless it's digital"...
                  I can understand where you're comming from because you're a product owner.

                  But read the bit you quoted again. The product owner forgets to stop the seach engine indexing the download page or pdf. Someone types a longtail keyword into google, clicks a link and either downloads a product they find there or when they click on the google listing they're taken to the pdf file...

                  Most people wouldn't even know that you were selling the product. They see any information they can find on the net as free. For them it'd be like typing something into a search engine, clicking on a link and being taken to an online newspaper article... and then for the newspaper to accuse them of stealing...

                  Which is just what Rupert Murdoch is accusing them of, except he seems to be blaming google.

                  It's not like leaving your garage door open at night and finding your car gone, it's more like leaving your bike (that looks very similar to the free bikes left all over a certain Euopean city that can be used for free by anyone) unlocked in that city and being suprised when it's missing.

                  I can understand that you don't agree with the younger demographics idea that digital = free (as I don't). But don't be naive enough to believe that if someone finds your product through a search engine that for them to download it/read the pdf/watch the video is illegal or that they'll feel bad about it
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                  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                    Originally Posted by Topher Walker View Post

                    I can understand where you're comming from because you're a product owner.
                    'Nother big flag wave here.

                    Product owners object to the theft of their own products, and the products they find sufficiently like their own products.

                    But they don't object to downloading CDs, because they don't make CDs.

                    They don't object to downloading movies, because they don't make movies.

                    And they don't object to downloading commercial software, because they don't make commercial software.

                    If you want the world to start understanding that piracy is stealing and stealing is wrong, it has to be all piracy. Not just the piracy that hits you in your pocketbook. If you only care about whether YOUR product gets pirated, that's not "the principle of the thing." It's greed and self-interest.

                    But you can't make the world do that. You could do it yourself, but it's a drop in the bucket. If we can't get a movement going that rivals the open source community, there's not a chance in hell we're making a difference, and even the open source community is an abject failure in changing the status quo.

                    Like it or not, we've hit a point of no return.
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                    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                    • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
                      Yeah I think I have to agree with C on this one it is only a small deturrent protecting our files all it takes is one upload of said file and bango worldwide she goes. now I put all sorts of things in my products referencing my name and memberprods only way I can look at that is free advertising would be simply way too hard to go after everyone

                      Good point George! that's what i am saying too or using a mask like they do with spoof mails phishing mails etc.
                      -WD
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                    • Profile picture of the author cj1966
                      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                      'Nother big flag wave here.

                      Product owners object to the theft of their own products, and the products they find sufficiently like their own products.

                      But they don't object to downloading CDs, because they don't make CDs.

                      They don't object to downloading movies, because they don't make movies.

                      And they don't object to downloading commercial software, because they don't make commercial software.

                      If you want the world to start understanding that piracy is stealing and stealing is wrong, it has to be all piracy. Not just the piracy that hits you in your pocketbook. If you only care about whether YOUR product gets pirated, that's not "the principle of the thing." It's greed and self-interest.

                      But you can't make the world do that. You could do it yourself, but it's a drop in the bucket. If we can't get a movement going that rivals the open source community, there's not a chance in hell we're making a difference, and even the open source community is an abject failure in changing the status quo.

                      Like it or not, we've hit a point of no return.
                      to that.

                      I'll point out again that I do think piracy is wrong. I'm not sure where I draw the line TBH. If it was technically illegal to lend a physical book to my grandmother I'd ignore the publishers demand and think I was well within my rights to do so. The scary thing is that in general people are starting to develop have the same views on all piracy as I would have toward publishers telling me I can't lend a book I bought to my little old Grandma!

                      For example. I saw on one general forms (not a hack, warez or esp "youth" orientated forum) a thread that was someone offering an ebook that I know is a product being sold on a rapid share link. By far the biggest complaint was that he was providing a link that could potentially hide virus' not that he was encouraging people to download an ebook without paying. One guy raised the issue that it was stealing. These were some of the responces:

                      "How can you steal a thing that is as imaterial and as infinite as information?"

                      "I downloaded that. It did say something about copyright, you could pay for download if you want but its free"

                      "Any how I don't think I stole anything, is kind of general info, quick read...
                      To me it seems there are a lot of free PDF files out there that are free"

                      Yeah it's and I'm not totally sure what the answer is for IMers but it's something to consider and not just pretend doesn't exist
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                    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                      'Nother big flag wave here.

                      Product owners object to the theft of their own products, and the products they find sufficiently like their own products.

                      But they don't object to downloading CDs, because they don't make CDs.

                      They don't object to downloading movies, because they don't make movies.

                      And they don't object to downloading commercial software, because they don't make commercial software.
                      Actually, I object and never download music, movies or software that I haven't paid for ... or digital products that I haven't bought.
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                      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                        Actually, I object and never download music, movies or software that I haven't paid for ... or digital products that I haven't bought.
                        Want to hear something funny? TRUE STORY!!!!! I once told a customer that a product they bought, for the WRONG O/S, since that company didn't support another O/S, was simply a WRAPPER around a product they could get for FREE for the RIGHT O/S! IMAGINE!!!!! Their software costs could drop by over $100/year, their employee costs could drop by THOUSANDS per year, and productivity could SKYROCKET! They would NOT get the free version! WHY!?!?!? They were afraid that, if there WERE a problem, they could get sued. By paying another company, THAT company could get sued INSTEAD.

                        FUNNY, HUH!?!?

                        Steve
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                      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                        Actually, I object and never download music, movies or software that I haven't paid for ... or digital products that I haven't bought.
                        Which, while it is a drop in the bucket, is also the Right Thing.

                        I look the other way about this sort of thing a lot. My wife loves anime. Some of the best anime is never exported from Japan, or is only exported through a crappy dubbed version that destroys much of the original artistry. So when she wants to watch a DVD that is clearly burned from a downloaded copy, I pretend I don't notice.

                        I also know there is no way in hell we can afford all the graphics software she has installed on her PC, nor did we ever buy a copy of The Sims 2.

                        I personally do not steal movies (I have Netflix, and don't have trouble waiting until the disc gets into my queue), games (Gamefly), music (Zune Pass), or software (contacts at Microsoft). I have perfectly legitimate and legal ways to get the overwhelming majority of what I want at low or no cost, and I seek alternatives to the rest. I'd love to have Photoshop, and honestly, I'll be picking it up once my finances allow - but I've also got a copy of Paint.NET over here, and it works just fine most of the time.

                        I don't see why other people have so much trouble with that concept, but for some reason, they prefer to steal. And there's not a whole lot you and I can do about it. Leading by example is certainly what should be done, and we have to do it "out loud" - not just refusing to steal digital products, but advertising it as much as possible.

                        But do you really think we're going to change the nature of the beast?

                        I think what we're seeing here isn't just a few high-profile instances of spoiled rich kids, but a sea-change in the perception of what is right and wrong. I think over the next twenty years, you and I will see some truly shocking changes in the interpretation of intellectual property laws, and some even more shocking changes in the actual content of those laws.

                        I think it's a better use of my time to figure out how, exactly, I can make my business 100% immune to those changes. I think there's a way to do it. I don't really know what it is yet, but I think if I take all the time and energy I'd put into "fighting the good fight" and put it into that instead... I'll probably work it out.

                        Somewhere along the line, I'll probably drop some security stuff out there anyway, because it's a hot market. Lots of people will be clamouring to lock the barn door, and selling locks is a good way to get their attention and say "locking your barn door won't work" - so when they figure it out, they'll go "hey, that Darklock guy told me this wouldn't work when he sold me the lock, maybe I should go talk to him."
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                        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                        • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
                          Part of the issue now is the kids are taught there is no absolute truth there is no absolute right or wrong only what is true for you right to you or wrong to you.

                          that my friends is the truth in a nutshell ow wait that is the truth to me in a nutshell. what a crock . and yet if they went to hit someone they would find there is an absolute concerning it . or if the walked in front of a bus believing that bus won't hit me it will stop that is what i believe to be true they would discover what may have been true to them was actually untrue.

                          Our society as people is ever declining when you have kids walking on to a bus and opening fire killing all sorts of women and children you know we have failed as a people

                          goes a lot farther then cd's or dvd's music or products it is the entire mindset
                          -WD
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                        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                          But do you really think we're going to change the nature of the beast?
                          You don't need to "change the nature of the beast." That would be impossible. You only need to do a few things to make it more trouble than it's worth to try to find your stuff to steal.

                          Here's a couple of things I do and they work very well.

                          1. If you don't buy anything else for digital downloads, buy DLGuard. Even hackers say it's the most difficult program to hack.

                          2. Don't name your download folder download. You can have a decoy download folder and put a pdf in it for them to find, if you want. Use your imagination on what to put in the pdf.

                          3. Exclude the real download folder in your robots file.

                          4. File a DMCA with the thieves host if you find your stuff on the Net where it doesn't belong.

                          These things have kept my losses to a bare minimum.
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                          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                            You only need to do a few things to make it more trouble than it's worth to try to find your stuff to steal.
                            I used to think exactly the same way you do. I even produced a few products to help protect shareware authors from having their apps stolen and cracked. But then, to make sure I was actually doing the right things and being effective, I went undercover into a few cracking and pirate communities (RIP THU). And it's not going down the way you think it is.

                            The pirates pool their money.

                            They try to get it free, sure. But more and more often, they can't. Nobody puts a twelve-DVD CPA course on a pirate tracker by hacking into the author's website, or getting a job at the disc manufacturer, or packet-sniffing for passwords.

                            They buy it.

                            Yes, the guy selling that course got paid. Some pirate showed up with $5,000 and bought the course. But it wasn't all his. Over on his favourite tracker, there are 200 people who each gave him $25 (usually a little more to cover transaction fees, shipping, and his time and effort) so he could buy it.

                            Within days of receiving the course, that pirate has ripped the DVDs to ISO format and is happily shoving them up onto the tracker, where 200 people are waiting to download it.

                            This goes all the way down to your $30 and $50 ebook levels. Someone will come on the tracker's IRC channel and say "who wants to put in $10 for this product?" and a couple people say "me!" and then PayPal addresses are exchanged privately.

                            It's not some lone wolf trying to play Robin Hood. It's a coalition of your customers. How can you tell that this person trying to buy your product is one of the thousands of people that coordinate uploading to pirate sites?

                            Honestly, DLGuard isn't their issue. They just say "aww, man, DLGuard... okay, who's pitching in?"

                            So yeah, it makes a difference. And that difference is exactly one... more... sale.

                            (Well, per tracker that buys it... and I'm guessing that's between three and six for most highly-desired products, because of the social dynamics between sites and which ones share membership.)
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                            "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                            • Profile picture of the author garyv
                              I prefer to look at it like apple does with their i-Tunes. Make your stuff extremely accessible for those that want to buy it. Don't worry about pirates, they'll always be there. But if you have a quality product that people want, and you make it easily accessible, then people will be glad to pay for it.

                              And by the way, trying to bypass digital security that's meant to protect a product or private website is actually against the law in the United States. So authorities are slowly coming around to the fact that digitally delivered products are a commodity that can be bought, sold, delivered, and tracked. Just like a tangible product.
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                            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                              Banned
                              Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                              I used to think exactly the same way you do. I even produced a few products to help protect shareware authors from having their apps stolen and cracked. But then, to make sure I was actually doing the right things and being effective, I went undercover into a few cracking and pirate communities (RIP THU). And it's not going down the way you think it is.

                              The pirates pool their money.
                              Having a bunch of pirates having the product does not bother me. Normally, they are too lazy or stupid to implement my ebook. Mine's not a get rich quick kind of thing, but when I do a Google search and find it at a torrent site, or a website or a filesharing site, that's when I issue a DMCA and it disappears. It really doesn't take much time to keep it out of the mainstream.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                      I can't believe some of the replies in this thread (shakes head) but I can
                      say one thing...like it or not...CDarkclock has hit the nail on the head so
                      well that we're all probably suffering post concussion syndrome right now.

                      The world out there, at least a good part of if, has no problem with
                      downloading things illegally. If they can get their hands on it, they will.

                      This doesn't make it right. It makes it what it is.

                      So we have 2 choices.

                      1. We can bang our heads against a wall trying to stop it. (I use DLGuard
                      for my products) and try to make a dent in the problem

                      2. We can understand what it is and accept it for what it is.

                      I do what I can. But I'll be damned if I'm going to spend 14 hours a day
                      tracking down every low life who steals one of my products. My time,
                      at $100 per hour, is two valuable for that. I make enough from the honest
                      people out there that I don't need to make hunting down piracy a life
                      long mission.

                      That's MY opinion and I don't expect others to agree with it. By all means,
                      if you want to chase down every offender (if you can even find them)
                      go for it.

                      I have better things to do with my time.
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                      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                        So we have 2 choices.

                        1. We can bang our heads against a wall trying to stop it. (I use DLGuard
                        for my products) and try to make a dent in the problem

                        2. We can understand what it is and accept it for what it is.
                        I think in a period of transition, like we're in now, you sort of have to do both.

                        According to my server logs, for example... in the membership area for my recent product, I haven't sold anywhere NEAR the number of memberships that I have unique IPs. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out that some number of those people didn't buy the product. (Also doesn't take much to figure out whose copy of the product they got.)

                        So my list got an email earlier today, to the effect that the security model for that area will be changing soon. I'm not going to waste a lot of time on it, of course, but I'll certainly hack something together over an hour or two when I have time. And in the meantime... let the pirates play. When they start getting the 301 redirect, they'll know the party's over.

                        But am I going to race over to that pirate site and tell everyone "you stop downloading my product for free!" until they hang their heads and apologise? Nope. Not gonna do it. I'd just be tilting at windmills. I have to accept that this is the way people think these days, and mull over the notion that maybe we can make things work anyway.

                        It's not a "this way or that way" decision yet. We don't have any rational or reasonable choice except #1, and #2 is just blumen und regenbogen right now. In short, Suzanne is right. You can't just drop the approach of securing your products and throw up your hands about the whole thing... because even though you can't make the barrier impenetrable, hey, having a fence of any sort will keep most people out of your yard.

                        Suzanne and I will always have one fundamental disagreement. She's of the opinion that when you catch people in your yard, you run out and chase them away. I'm of the opinion that you shake your head and think "I've got to figure out how to fix that."
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                        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                          I think in a period of transition, like we're in now, you sort of have to do both.

                          According to my server logs, for example... in the membership area for my recent product, I haven't sold anywhere NEAR the number of memberships that I have unique IPs. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out that some number of those people didn't buy the product. (Also doesn't take much to figure out whose copy of the product they got.)
                          Well, people don't necessarily always have the same IP!

                          Suzanne and I will always have one fundamental disagreement. She's of the opinion that when you catch people in your yard, you run out and chase them away. I'm of the opinion that you shake your head and think "I've got to figure out how to fix that."

                          YEP, and it is OK to dig holes or leave obstacles that they can trip over, as long as you have a fence and sign. It is OK to call the police for trespass, as long as you have a fence. But it is NOT ok to set fire to their home.(or computer)
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                          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                            Well, people don't necessarily always have the same IP!
                            I have well over ten times as many IPs as I've had customers, PLUS definitive proof of who leaked it and where they put it. I actually think it's really funny, because I know the guy who's doing it... he just has no clue I'm the author!

                            That's something that just cracks me up. I have this generally unprotected product, you can download it without buying if you just do a little snooping and have some basic technical smarts (okay, "basic" may be a little understated; you would normally start with an ARP attack). Any serious pirate who really wants it can get it. And, like my article rates, the bar's been raised that high because I want to see what someone of that calibre is doing with it...
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                            "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                          Suzanne and I will always have one fundamental disagreement. She's of the opinion that when you catch people in your yard, you run out and chase them away. I'm of the opinion that you shake your head and think "I've got to figure out how to fix that."
                          I think we have less of a disagreement than you think. I really don't spend any significant time tracking and chasing. I spend time (and very little) in making it too hard to bother with. It is, after all, just another ebook. I also spend a small amount of time issuing a DMCA to legitimate hosting companies to remove my material.

                          It has been pointed out before that when someone steals a website from you, and you are a designer and site flipper, that they are stealing your product in its entirety, and you can no longer sell that product after many hrs of hard work.

                          What gets me in these threads is the defense and rationalizations that people give for theft. The arguments that it is here and it is cultural and that's that ... nothing you can do or it is "sharing" and somehow a charitable act. The statement that I am being offensive to 80% of the human race because 80% of the human race are thieves. I seriously doubt that remark is based on solid research, but again, I'm unapologetic about being offensive to thieves.

                          Paul Meyers states it best. He always has exactly the right words for this and it reflects my opinion completely.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Zabrina
                            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                            What gets me in these threads is the defense and rationalizations that people give for theft. The arguments that it is here and it is cultural and that's that ... nothing you can do or it is "sharing" and somehow a charitable act. The statement that I am being offensive to 80% of the human race because 80% of the human race are thieves. I seriously doubt that remark is based on solid research, but again, I'm unapologetic about being offensive to thieves.
                            Just to clarify, I never said there's nothing we can do, nor that it was a charitable act. I believe CDarklock's point was that the pirates see it as a charitable act, not necessarily that it is one.

                            Also, I gave the range 40-80% because that's what my research turned up -- you chose to take the higher number. If your research contradicts this, please feel free to let me know. I don't mean to cause antagonism, just to give a realistic picture of the changing face of consumerism, since it clearly affects us all, no matter what our individual opinions are on it.
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                            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                              Banned
                              Originally Posted by Zabrina View Post

                              Just to clarify, I never said there's nothing we can do, nor that it was a charitable act. I believe CDarklock's point was that the pirates see it as a charitable act, not necessarily that it is one.

                              Also, I gave the range 40-80% because that's what my research turned up -- you chose to take the higher number. If your research contradicts this, please feel free to let me know. I don't mean to cause antagonism, just to give a realistic picture of the changing face of consumerism, since it clearly affects us all, no matter what our individual opinions are on it.
                              Consumer a person who buys goods or services for personal needs and not for resale or to use in the production of other ...

                              It's not consumerism. It's theft.
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                              • Profile picture of the author Zabrina
                                Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                                Consumer a person who buys goods or services for personal needs and not for resale or to use in the production of other ...

                                It's not consumerism. It's theft.
                                Well, not precisely... the definition of "consumer" according to M-W is "one that consumes as... one that utilizes economic goods". That doesn't necessarily mean they purchase them. And that's the reality we all have to face.
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                                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                                  Banned
                                  Originally Posted by Zabrina View Post

                                  Well, not precisely... the definition of "consumer" according to M-W is "one that consumes as... one that utilizes economic goods". That doesn't necessarily mean they purchase them. And that's the reality we all have to face.
                                  ... and the ethical sellers of products and ethical buyers of products have addressed facing the reality of theft of their digital products in regards to how to protect them, etc. This isn't a "new" reality. Thieves and other criminals have been around since the beginning of mankind. That's about all I have to say in this thread.
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                          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                            I think we have less of a disagreement than you think.
                            I don't think it matters much that we disagree on this point, really. We both believe that you can still do business effectively in a world full of pirates and thieves, the sky isn't falling, and what changes we face in the near future are certainly going to change things - but they're ultimately surmountable issues.

                            What gets me in these threads is the defense and rationalizations that people give for theft.
                            It's an awfully good example of what I mean... not just the defences and rationales, but the general silence of the community at large. People like you and Paul, who believe stealing is wrong and have the moral integrity to stand up and say it? You're thin on the ground these days. The world seems to be polarising into two main camps with a tiny little minority of dissenters, and those two camps are "pirates and proud" alongside "terrified sea captains."

                            Hey, it's kind of like you're Charles Howard and I'm Francis Drake, and we're approaching the armada at Gravelines. And, of course, the armada inevitably falls...
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                            "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                              Caliban,
                              Do you guys really understand how generally uninterested in your products the pirates are? The political economy is... honestly, you wouldn't understand if I explained it. They're simply alien. It's astounding.
                              Which group, and which products? As a rule, the hard core types aren't interested in information products. Those are generally pirated by children from the Far East. Young people who understand the value of information, but haven't the resources to buy it. So, they rationalize stealing.

                              The rest? They want software, of whatever kind fits their activities. Games, mostly, but commerce software if they're looking to scam a few bucks out of people. Or personal data, if they're really hard core.

                              There is nothing "alien" about the mindset. It's a perspective that's adopted as a matter of convenience, not some unusual value structure. What you describe as altruism is really nothing more than status-seeking. For evidence of this, just look at how many of the pirate boards use a "Rep" system.

                              A clear look at the mindset can be had by spending a few minutes thinking about the psychological differences implied by "giving reputation points" versus saying "thank you."

                              There are people who genuinely believe in the democratization of code and knowledge, but they're not found in the pirate communities. They're found in the open source movement, or among the publishers who give away significant amounts and types of information freely. And among them, the professionals still have a business model.
                              from where they are, the perspective is different: they cannot create a product, so you will extort money from them because you can?
                              That's not even a decent rationalization. That's outright distortion, for the purpose of hiding their own nature from themselves more aggressively.

                              "Extort?" Piffle. There is no force and no threat involved.

                              The problem these vermin have is that they're faced with reality, which involves choosing how to use one's limited resources when faced with multiple options. They try to circumvent reality, by stealing, rather than dealing honestly and facing the consequences of their own choices.

                              That's the thing that scares these little creeps. That they can't have everything for nothing, and they're expected to give up one thing to get another.

                              It is no coincidence that the people who frequent those places are also more likely to be actively destructive when someone disagrees with them. Or that, in the ones where supposed businesspeople hang out, the types of business they pursue involves deception and a total lack of concern for the value offered in return for their easy money.
                              People rail against their superiors, or at least those who claim to be such. So you'll rail against the $497 product guy, until you start to feel like you could make a $497 product.
                              Anyone who believes that someone else is "superior" is suffering from problems that require attention. There's a large difference between recognizing that someone is more skilled than you in some specific area (true of all of us) and believing that this makes them a better person than you.

                              If you resent another person for skills acquired and used honestly, you don't just have issues. You've got a subscription.

                              The same is true of anyone who thinks that superior knowledge makes them a superior person.
                              Never seen this. Which sites?
                              I forget. It's been pointed out to me on two of them, both of which focus on the IM field.


                              Paul
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                              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                                the general silence of the community at large
                                I suspect that a lot of the people who want to see things handled properly just don't see how arguing with pirates and their apologists will help. You don't convince those people, after all. Not usually.

                                What the honest folk seem to forget is that there are lots of people reading these threads who haven't made up their minds yet, or who are simply unaware of the impact of their actions. Those are the folks we're talking to, not the thieves.

                                There are a lot of people here who will speak up on these issues. Certainly more than will defend piracy or other unethical behaviors. It may be that they don't see the need if someone else has already made the point, but leave one unaddressed for a little bit and someone will jump on it.


                                Paul
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                                • Profile picture of the author j0s3
                                  Very well said.

                                  As for the theft... it's easy to get consumed and focus all your energy on the small-time crook stealing $10 out of you every day... and take your eye off the ball and forget the fact that you're making $20 on the 'decent' end of the sales funnel.

                                  Focus on the right end.

                                  You have an IP. Report it and make some noise, then move on quickly.

                                  If it happens to Microsoft...

                                  PS If you factor in the fact that your products may get stolen... this can be an opportunity for upsells: add some affiliate links in the content
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                              • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                                What you describe as altruism is really nothing more than status-seeking.
                                I believe I said "prestige," but yes, that was rather what I said in the rest of the paragraph that referenced altruism. The root of their impulse may be altruism, but the root of their action is self-interest.

                                A clear look at the mindset can be had by spending a few minutes thinking about the psychological differences implied by "giving reputation points" versus saying "thank you."
                                Well, yes. When you call it "thanks," you're discouraging the idea that it's a score and you're playing a game. When you call it "points," you're outright admitting that whenever you start counting something, you have created a score that reflects one's performance in a game - something with agreed-upon rules and standards, whether they're overtly specified or not.

                                It might be argued that one of those things is more honest than the other, but it might also be argued that honesty isn't necessarily the goal. When you look at the language as a deliberate choice designed to inspire a certain perception, calling it "points" seems offensive; they're actively encouraging people to treat this like a game.

                                But when you look at the language as a symbol representing reality, calling it "thanks" seems like just a big steaming load of BS; they're actually trying to pretend 'click the button to increment the counter' has some sort of objective meaning.

                                This is a culture clash. I love culture clashes. They're fascinating. Nobody's really right, but everybody has a valid point of view, and at the same time they're stunningly wrong about what the other person's point of view is. So from both sides of the fence, the people on the other side always look like complete retards who just don't get it.

                                "Extort?" Piffle. There is no force and no threat involved.
                                "Give me the money or you can't have this thing that by all rights ought to belong to you" is extortion. The difference of opinion at issue here is whether what you sell rightfully belongs to the pirate. And the pirate's argument hinges around ownership of information. The pirate says you can't own information, because information wants to be free!

                                But you didn't have to put the information into a product. The information itself, which cannot be owned or sold or bought, is not the product. Think of the term "information product" like "water pistol" - just because water is free doesn't mean the pistol should be.

                                And that's a lot of the problem. You're arguing about a product, and they're arguing about information. Neither of you is thinking enough about the other half of the term. You can concede that information should be free without conceding that all information products ought to be free, too.

                                That's the thing that scares these little creeps. That they can't have everything for nothing, and they're expected to give up one thing to get another.
                                But we do get everything for nothing. We sit down and bang out a report, and then we say "gimme some money!" - but when they give us some money, all we give them is a COPY of the report. We still have the report. We didn't give up anything. We got the money for nothing. In fact, we're whores: we've got something, we sell it, and we've still got it.

                                As product creators, we sit there open-mouthed at this accusation and go "WTF, I worked on that product for weeks, and it took me several years to develop the knowledge in it."

                                And the pirate says "yeah, but you already did that."

                                That's the alien part. Because over the years, I have heard this logic repeated in fifty thousand different ways, and my response has always been something like...

                                Okay, you're kidding, right?

                                It's like they've got absolutely no concept of cost recovery; once you've done the work, its done. You don't have any right to recoup your costs, or be compensated for your time, or any of that. The only thing that matters is you're sitting here right now with this thing, and other people want it, so you should share. All that time you spent, all that work you did, well... that's in the past, dude. Why d'you wanna live in the past? It's the future that matters, man. Just let the past be the past, and let the now be the now. And right now, you should share.

                                And to be perfectly honest, the only place I have ever seen this kind of logic is among habitual marijuana smokers. So I'm not kidding when I say it's like they're on drugs.
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                                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                                  Caliban,
                                  The pirate says you can't own information, because information wants to be free!
                                  First, information has no desires. Second, that's only a small part of a speech made at a hacker's conference, 25 years ago. The full quote is: "On the one hand information wants to be expensive, because it's so valuable. The right information in the right place just changes your life. On the other hand, information wants to be free, because the cost of getting it out is getting lower and lower all the time. So you have these two fighting against each other."

                                  The way to reconcile those competing forces is not to steal, but to allow the normal process of commoditization to drive prices down.

                                  To carry part of your comments a bit further, we don't ever really disagree on reality. We disagree in our perceptions and interpretation of it. The "people" you're describing have chosen a deliberately distorted filter of perception.

                                  It's not a culture clash, any more than a prison riot is. It's a matter of motivated reasoning. The pirates choose to use whatever language allows them to steal without admitting to themselves that they're thieves. They paint themselves as Robin Hoods, when they're really just digital thugs.

                                  You keep suggesting that the difference in mentality is hard for others to understand. It's not. I've dealt with pirates, including people who ran pirate boards. I've read their conversations, and joined in more than a few. I've poked them, both publicly and privately, and watched their reactions.

                                  They're just thieves, who delude themselves into thinking they're engaged in some romantic endeavor. Consider why they call themselves pirates, rather than something more accurate.

                                  There are two moral differences between pirates and pickpockets: The pickpocket doesn't pretend he owns the moral high ground, and he takes a real, physical risk in committing his theft.

                                  A common pickpocket is thus far superior, morally, to a pirate. He's also substantially less destructive.

                                  The rest of the discussion is just a rehashing of the language they use to justify their thefts. It's no more meaningful than the distortions of talk radio clowns.


                                  Paul
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                                  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                                    Paul, we seem to be getting off track here.

                                    The pirates are not just making excuses, they believe these excuses.

                                    You are trying to tell the psychotic on the bus that he is not Napoleon.

                                    It doesn't matter how logical your argument is, HE'S NOT RATIONAL. He's going to keep right on believing he's Napoleon.

                                    And in a world where the majority of people believe they're Napoleon, you can't do things the same way you did when the majority of people are not Napoleon, because whether they really are Napoleon simply doesn't matter.
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                                    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                                    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                                    Caliban,First, information has no desires. Second, that's only a small part of a speech made at a hacker's conference, 25 years ago. The full quote is: "On the one hand information wants to be expensive, because it's so valuable. The right information in the right place just changes your life. On the other hand, information wants to be free, because the cost of getting it out is getting lower and lower all the time. So you have these two fighting against each other."

                                    The way to reconcile those competing forces is not to steal, but to allow the normal process of commoditization to drive prices down.

                                    To carry part of your comments a bit further, we don't ever really disagree on reality. We disagree in our perceptions and interpretation of it. The "people" you're describing have chosen a delberately distorted filter of perception.

                                    It's not a culture clash, any more than a prison riot is. It's a matter of motivated reasoning. The pirates choose to use whatever language allows them to steal without admitting to themselves that they're thieves. They paint themselves as Robin Hoods, when they're really just digital thugs.

                                    You keep suggesting that the difference in mentality is hard for others to understand. It's not. I've dealt with pirates, including people who ran pirate boards. I've read their conversations, and joined in more than a few. I've poked them, both publicly and privately, and watched their reactions.

                                    They're just thieves, who delude themselves into thinking they're engaged in some romantic endeavor. Consider why they call themselves pirates, rather than something more accurate.

                                    There are two moral differences between pirates and pickpockets: The pickpocket doesn't pretend he owns the moral high ground, and he takes a real, physical risk in committing his theft.

                                    A common pickpocket is thus far superior, morally, to a pirate. He's also substantially less destructive.

                                    The rest of the discussion is just a rehashing of the language they use to justify their thefts. It's no more meaningful than the distortions of talk radio clowns.


                                    Paul

                                    Paul, while we're on the subject, what can we do about those other
                                    forums that are letting members post links to our WSOs allowing them
                                    to get the WSOs for free?

                                    Any way we can get these forums shut down?
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                                      Caliban,
                                      The pirates are not just making excuses, they believe these excuses.
                                      I don't think more than a very few of them really do. They repeat them, they insist on them, they cling to them. But they don't really believe them. They need them, to keep from seeing themselves as they really are.

                                      I agree that there's no point in arguing with them, but that's not what I'm doing here. I don't expect to convert a pirate. I hope to educate others.

                                      I do make a distinction between the people posting/hosting the pirated materials and the people who download them without thinking about what they're doing. Mostly in how you deal with them. The latter should be educated, and the former eradicated.

                                      If you can't educate the mentally lazy downloaders, you consider them to be among the actual pirates, and you drive them out. Or you find other ways to make the point.

                                      I have a good friend who thinks that downloading commercial music is okay, despite my having explained why it's not. He was stunned recently when I refused to help him with a problem with his computer. I told him I wasn't going to try and interfere with him stealing, but I also wasn't going to help him do it.

                                      Until then, I don't think he realized that I actually meant what I'd said about piracy.

                                      There are, in relative terms, very, very few people who preach the Gospel According to Jolly Roger. They are, as you say, not rational. So, you take whatever steps are necessary to keep them from damaging others. I personally favor the idea of locking them up.

                                      For the people who download commercial products illicitly, a simple confiscation of their computers should suffice. If they make their livings with their computers, oh well. McDonald's is usually hiring. If not, let them find out what it's like to have their incomes screwed with.

                                      Before anyone brings up the tired old argument... No. I have never pirated even one piece of music, one program, or one document. And yes, I pay for the shareware I use.

                                      Anyone who defends any form of piracy has no business in this forum, or doing business online. If you (the generic you) do it, you are the enemy, and you need to be driven offline.

                                      It doesn't matter who you steal from. If you steal, you're a thief, and I have no reason to believe you won't steal from me.

                                      Steven,

                                      Depends on which places. Some you can just change links for. Others, you need to go after the hosting sites.

                                      And some, you can't do a damned thing about at the time without getting into the realm of the illegal. You just take names, and you remember. If you're around long enough, you'll get your chance to handle it legally.

                                      Or, you could be "creative." For example, if you were dealing with a pirate site hosted in China, and you were a particularly bloodthirsty and vicious sort of bastich, you could post in the appropriate places hinting at a connection between the pirates and the Falun Gong. Along with that, point out the shared philosophical arguments, in terms of freedom from oppression and the open nature of information...

                                      Or, let's say the site was in Iran. Change the links to your product so that customers get the real thing, and leave something containing Green Movement propaganda in the stuff the pirates link to. Then make a "mistake" in where you post about it.

                                      I really don't recommend anything as extreme as those ideas. Seriously. They could get someone killed. They do illustrate the principle of alternative attack vectors nicely, though, don't they?

                                      Many of the worst of the pirates live in places where such an attack could be effective. Even the suggestion of it should give most of them nightmares.

                                      Hey, I never said I was a nice man.


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                                      • Profile picture of the author cj1966
                                        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                                        Caliban,I don't think more than a very few of them really do. They repeat them, they insist on them, they cling to them. But they don't really believe them. They need them, to keep from seeing themselves as they really are.
                                        Fine line between the two, especially as you're starting to get computer saavy teens whose parents repeat, insist and cling to their claims that it's ok... the risk is that their kids will really deepdown believe it with absolutely no inner-gut feeling.

                                        BTW you wanna know how messed up the thinking really is? I was researching a product and came accross a thread in a form discussing it. Turned out to be one of those "here's a torrent we've uploaded so you can illegally download the product" sites/threads. It's for a set of 3 DVD's that sells for $200...

                                        The person uploading it a few posts down adds a scanned in DVD cover. You then get several people going nuts because on the DVD cover is an added graphic. Apparantly it's from a private forum that club together to buy products and share among the members. Some people on the thread were livid that this site uploaded the torrent link; not because it was a paid for product that they were dupping the owner out of sales but because they were "disrespecting" the club who bought one copy and distributed it (illegally) among their members and that the thread stater was "stealing"... again not from the product owner but from the private club distributing products
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                    • Profile picture of the author xiaophil
                      There was an attack on Amazon's DNS starting on Wednesday (the date of the OP), and I wonder if there is a connection.

                      DDoS attack scrooges Amazon and others ? The Register

                      DDoS attack hobbles major sites, including Amazon | Relevant Results - CNET News

                      If someone is messing with the DNS, then all kinds of weird **** could be happening.

                      Even though this thread appears now to be debating the morality and differences between theft and copyright infringement, I thought someone might still be interested.

                      Cheers,
                      Phil
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                    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                      So the single biggest question you have to face is how you're going to survive in a culture that believes it's perfectly all right to steal your product and share it for free.
                      Block them, shun them, and call them out for what they are: The morally deficient offspring of willful intellectual cripples. The reason we should use more chlorine in the gene pool.

                      Thieves.

                      I don't care what culture you're from, there are words you don't use and things you don't do in my house. If you don't want to pay my price for my work, you can do without the result of that work.

                      For most of these brat bast_rds, this isn't about not recognizing the right and wrong of the thing. If that were the issue, the pirate sites wouldn't have rules forbidding pirating of their own members' products.

                      These people know they're thieves. They do it because theft and destruction are all they're capable of. They're all that gives them the feeling of competence and power that normal people achieve through productive pursuits.

                      There is nothing new about the entitlement demanded by the young. Most people grow out of it. The ones who don't need to be drummed out of polite society, just like children who start out as shoplifters and age into bigger thefts.

                      Topher wonderfully presents some of the amoral and destructive rationalizations used by these cretins to avoid looking themselves in the face, ethically. He fails to carry the logic out to its inevitable conclusion, which is that nothing in digital form is fit for the exclusive control of any single entity.

                      His examples can be, and often are, used to justify spamming, trolling, con games, misrepresentation of products, failure to honor refund policies, cracking servers and stealing data, every form of TOS violation known to virtual society, phishing, and all manner of other evils.

                      The translation, in plain language is: If we can do it, we are right to do it.

                      The proper response is not to cede the ground to the thieves. It is not to give them what they want, in the hope that they won't demand even more of you later. It's to push them out, with as much force and effectiveness as you can muster. Educate the ignorant, yes, but excise the evil.

                      There is no more vicious slap you can take at an honest person than to defend the dishonest.


                      Paul
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                      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                        For most of these brat bast_rds, this isn't about not recognizing the right and wrong of the thing. If that were the issue, the pirate sites wouldn't have rules forbidding pirating of their own members' products.
                        Never seen this. Which sites? PM me if you're uncomfortable with saying it out loud. Most of the sites I'm on... which, admittedly, are rather hardcore... actively admonish members to find and report product owners so they can be banned. I had one moderator damn near "out" me on a site until we discussed at length what my philosophy was around this.

                        These people know they're thieves. They do it because theft and destruction are all they're capable of.
                        I agree with this from where I am. The people who do this are, in general, incapable of creating a product of their own. But from where they are, the perspective is different: they cannot create a product, so you will extort money from them because you can?

                        There's actually an altruistic drive underneath it, to help their fellow man... just as that same drive leads you to create the product in the first place. But in both cases, the head of self-interest raises quite prominently: you want the money people pay you for the product, they want the prestige that comes from saving others money.

                        In general, the difference is whether you have the ability to create a product. Once you can make a $97 product, it's doubtful you'll shake a fist at another $97 product creator. People rail against their superiors, or at least those who claim to be such. So you'll rail against the $497 product guy, until you start to feel like you could make a $497 product.

                        I'm going to shut up now. I'm too drunk, and I could "out" myself if I keep going. Do you guys really understand how generally uninterested in your products the pirates are? The political economy is... honestly, you wouldn't understand if I explained it. They're simply alien. It's astounding.
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                • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
                  Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                  I'm not a particularly religious sort, but I don't recall the commandment reading "thou shalt not steal, unless it's digital"...
                  Oh man, this is THE post of the week.
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                  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                    Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

                    Oh man, this is THE post of the week.
                    Actually, the ONLY thing the Bible speaks against here is sexual! THINK about it. If you had to plug your ears when a teacher walked by, or walk around BLIND. YIKES!
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                • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                  Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                  Sorry, it's still stealing. If I take something that doesn't belong to me, it's called theft. You can spin whatever situational ethics you want around it, but that does not change the reality.

                  If I forget to close my garage door one night, does that make it okay for anyone driving by to help themselves?

                  If I slip down to the shore and load up my cooler with out of season fish, is it okay just because no one can tell I poached them?

                  I'm not a particularly religious sort, but I don't recall the commandment reading "thou shalt not steal, unless it's digital"...
                  UH OH.... You'll get a kick out of this:

                  Usufruct - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                  Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by talfighel View Post

      I don't think that anyone was trying to steal your ebook. Maybe it was someone from that IP that tried to read your ebook without paying your fee.

      Tal
      Oh ... you mean like simple ebook theft instead of stealing the ebook?
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  • Profile picture of the author Thizzle
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author mywebwork
      Originally Posted by ScoTech View Post

      I wanted to see where the attacks were coming from, so I gathered some of the IP addresses, and looked them up at ip2location, and I got a shock. One of the addresses was an Amazon.com IP, and they tried to guess my download page 9 different ways. What should I make of this?!?!
      Any possibility that this was someone using a server hosted by Amazon and not Amazon themselves? Perhaps Amazon Web Services?

      Amazon would happily let you market your book in Kindle format and take some of the profits for doing this, I really doubt they would be searching the web looking for new material.

      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      The problem product creators need to face is that something like 98% of young adults do not believe digital piracy is wrong. It's not that they don't know it's illegal, or that they don't understand they aren't supposed to do it. They simply don't believe it's wrong. They think all the laws and rules and standards that say "don't do it" are wrong.
      This is so true, as usual CDarklock can be counted upon to get to the heart of the matter and provide food for an intelligent discussion. As he points out we would all be foolish to ignore this trend.

      Originally Posted by Thizzle View Post

      Wow, I always knew amazon was crooked...
      On the other hand this is just babble - unless of course you can back up the claim with some facts. Amazon may not be everyones favorite company (although I personally have no reason to dislike them) but as far as I'm aware they practice legitimate business practices. And I'm saying that even after they dropped all of their Hawaii affiliates (including myself) earlier this year!

      Bill
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  • Profile picture of the author greff
    Think about it. If you were an Amazon exec, would you tell your people to steal other people's work? That could only lead to bad things. Amazon does not need our piddling stuff.
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    • Profile picture of the author ScoTech
      Originally Posted by greff View Post

      Think about it. If you were an Amazon exec, would you tell your people to steal other people's work? That could only lead to bad things. Amazon does not need our piddling stuff.
      Yes, I am 99.9% sure "Amazon" was not trying to steal my product, it just happened to come through one of their IP's. Just kind of made me pause when the list of attacks were like Hong Kong, China, Poland and oh yeah, Amazon.
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  • Profile picture of the author smokemon
    Like a previous poster suggested, I'd be more apt to believe it was a spoof.
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  • Profile picture of the author dilynn3
    Thank you for sharing your experience so we know to keep an eye out. IF there are many of us experiencing the same thing we can certainly make a more formal "legal" complaint.

    For now, I agree that it must immediately be reported to a supervisor.

    Thanks again!
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Use DLGuard for your downloads and protect your download folder and make a fake download folder called /download/ so they will be certain to find it and put some real nasty crap in there for them to read, like some particularly hideous butt porn or something. Just a thought.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      Use DLGuard for your downloads and protect your download folder and make a fake download folder called /download/ so they will be certain to find it and put some real nasty crap in there for them to read, like some particularly hideous butt porn or something. Just a thought.
      It COULD give YOU a bad reputation, ban YOUR domain from some areas, etc.... but it WOULD be interesting.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        It COULD give YOU a bad reputation, ban YOUR domain from some areas, etc.... but it WOULD be interesting.
        lol ... I'm not overly concerned about my reputation with a gang of thieves, but you have a point about my host and domain, so I'm sure I could think up something equally objectionable that doesn't break hosting TOS or make Google think it's a porn site. But still, I do like the idea.
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Originally Posted by Topher Walker View Post

          I can understand where you're coming from because you're a product owner.

          But read the bit you quoted again. The product owner forgets to stop the search engine indexing the download page or pdf. Someone types a longtail keyword into google, clicks a link and either downloads a product they find there or when they click on the google listing they're taken to the pdf file...

          I can understand that you don't agree with the younger demographics idea that digital = free (as I don't). But don't be naive enough to believe that if someone finds your product through a search engine that for them to download it/read the pdf/watch the video is illegal or that they'll feel bad about it
          Bit in red:

          I'll meet you part way on this one. If someone lands on a download page that specifically mentions that this is to collect a purchase, it's stealing, by definition. I'm not naive enough to believe someone finding that page will think twice about downloading. I think most people will lump their discovery in with getting too much change back when they buy something at a store - they know it's wrong, but they'll count themselves lucky and pocket the money.

          Someone who clicks through directly to the pdf may not realize they've reached a product for sale. Even though, technically, they're committing an offense, I can't hold it against them.

          Bit in blue:

          Here again, I'll meet you part way.

          If someone finds my download page via a search engine, and it says explicitly that it's a delivery page for a paid product, if they download anyway, they are stealing. It is indeed illegal.

          I never was naive enough to believe that the knowledge that they were stealing would deter someone, nor that they would fell bad about it.

          If I pull up to a store when it's closed, load my trunk with stuff that's stacked outside, and feel good about my 'bargain', does that now mean I didn't steal it?

          Even in the case where someone stumbles over a direct link to a product, we're talking about a different breed of animal from what was posed in the original post. That was someone deliberately looking for the download page knowing full well what they were doing.

          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          UH OH.... You'll get a kick out of this:

          Usufruct - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

          Steve
          Now that is interesting...

          Maybe I'm reading something into it that isn't there, but all of the examples given seem to include the blessing of the actual property owner.

          If I lease a storefront, I have the right to profit from my activities in operating the store, even though I don't actually own the building. I could even choose to sublet all or part of the store, and benefit from the rental income.

          Considering that, another interesting side trip comes up when regarding property. In some places, if I take possession of a property and the rightful owner fails to exercise their property rights, I could gain legal ownership after a period of time.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

            Maybe I'm reading something into it that isn't there, but all of the examples given seem to include the blessing of the actual property owner.

            Well, MOST definitions DON'T qualify it in that way:

            Usufruct Definition | Definition of Usufruct at Dictionary.com

            Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              Well, MOST definitions DON'T qualify it in that way:

              Usufruct Definition | Definition of Usufruct at Dictionary.com

              Steve
              Fair enough...

              While the definition says this:

              u·su·fruct (yōō'zə-frŭkt', -sə-)
              n. The right to use and enjoy the profits and advantages of something belonging to another as long as the property is not damaged or altered in any way.
              Virtually all of the examples given involve a right granted by either a government (by law or treaty) or by the actual rightful owner (by leasehold, will, etc.)

              Neither of which seems to apply to scavenging for digital products and downloading them without the owner's consent.
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            • Profile picture of the author wordwizard
              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              Well, MOST definitions DON'T qualify it in that way:

              Usufruct Definition | Definition of Usufruct at Dictionary.com

              Steve
              Now I'm all curious about that Usufruct Definition and when I tried to look it up, the server seems to be busy or something

              Elisabeth
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          lol ... I'm not overly concerned about my reputation with a gang of thieves, but you have a point about my host and domain, so I'm sure I could think up something equally objectionable that doesn't break hosting TOS or make Google think it's a porn site. But still, I do like the idea.

          I wasn't talking about the reputation with the thieves. That IS, after all, why you wanted to do it. But the reputation with everyone ELSE is another story.
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          • Profile picture of the author ahlexis
            In some places, if I take possession of a property and the rightful owner fails to exercise their property rights, I could gain legal ownership after a period of time.
            In most places in the US this is called Adverse Possession. The requirements to obtain legal ownership are:

            1. must be open...as in obvious, such as putting a fence around the property in question. Moving in to a home on the property qualifies.
            2. must be hostile...as in against the owner's wishes.
            3. must pay the taxes on the property during the time they are in physical possession.


            I had a real estate attorney tell me that if you discover someone squatting on your land and trying to stay there long enough to gain title that, instead of fighting them by spending tons of money on a lawyer, the easiest way to make them lose their claim to your property was to remove one of those 3 things above. And he said the easiest one to knock out is the hostility. In other words, write a letter and deliver it to them that gives them your permission to stay there. You've just removed the hostile part, thereby removing their claim to the land. You can't get title via adverse possession by doing things with the owner's permission!

            But getting back to this discussion, this just points out how much it makes sense to mention your other products in all of your products. Don't have other products yet because you're just starting out? Create a link to a page that lists them in the ebook, and continually update that page as you get more things coming out. Someone who may have gotten an illegal copy may find your work good enough to want more and actually be willing to pay for the additional works.

            Another method would be to have two versions of your product, the "paid for" version and the "free" version. Make the free version appear to be a slip-up that has multiple profit centers built in, such as affiliate links and other product mentions. And make the paid-for version have fewer such affiliate links and product mentions. Or make the free one a table of contents and partial book. Create a "season finale"-style cliffhanger for the free one with a link to the sales page of the paid version so that anyone who truly wants all of the info will have the opportunity to pull out their credit card and actually pay for it.

            Added benefit of the cliffhanger or free/paid version method is, the freebie seeker community just might end up being the fastest way to lead people to your sales page! And all spread virally by someone who thought they were stealing from you! The best revenge for someone stealing from you is to make money from their efforts to short change you!



            (To quote Ivana Trump, don't get even. Get EVERYTHING!!!)
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    • Profile picture of the author reapr
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      Use DLGuard for your downloads and protect your download folder and make a fake download folder called /download/ so they will be certain to find it and put some real nasty crap in there for them to read, like some particularly hideous butt porn or something. Just a thought.
      butt porn ... lol that gave me a better idea ... something like a backdoor hacker disguised as a self extracting file. I joke around about the hacker and I would never do it but stuff like that just ticks me off.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by reapr View Post

        something like a backdoor hacker disguised as a self extracting file.
        Throw up a dialog that asks the user to agree to your EULA. At the top of your EULA, say "This product is not free and requires a license from blah blah blah." If they check the "I Agree" box and click OK, show a progress dialog that says "preparing to install..." then enumerate every fixed disk drive on the system and start recursively deleting from the root directory. Ignore errors (like, say, "access denied" when you try to delete the EXE for a program they're running). They won't know what's happening until something crashes, and even if you don't make anything crash, when you're done the system will never boot.
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  • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
    Originally Posted by ScoTech View Post

    I produced an ebook and released it using paypal in October, then recently released it on Clickbank. Today I was looking over some stats on my server (wiredtree), and had a look at the error log. Of course there were all kinds of attempts to access myphpadmin and others trying to guess my download page or take advantage of frontpage exploits.

    I wanted to see where the attacks were coming from, so I gathered some of the IP addresses, and looked them up at ip2location, and I got a shock. One of the addresses was an Amazon.com IP, and they tried to guess my download page 9 different ways. What should I make of this?!?! Thank God I use DLGuard and Xsitepro.
    As a site/product owner you always have to assume the worst case. There are hackers out there, bots, script kiddies. That's why you need download protection like DLguard, and thats why you shouldnt be naive and have open and easily guessable download pages.

    As for the amazon IP...it could also be that some advanced hackers use an amazon proxy or amazon site to cover their real IP...i wouldnt just automatically assume its amazon stealing your book. If they are really advanced they certainly have ways to cover their tracks.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    The only laws I am aware of that cover this type of thing are copyright, DMCA(prevent them from selling or showing to another), DOS and hacking laws(prevent them from trying to break in), fraud, etc...(prevent them from paying with invalid instruments, excessive refunds, etc...). The idea of treating this like a stolen car, etc... is a stretch. And the Bible doesn't state what stealing is, but holding them to the standards shown in this thread(not even looking at what is given to them, etc...) would not have allowed society to exist.

    Let's face it, if it comes up in Google, YOU'VE LOST! You say google is your friend. If you fight them on this, and win, they are basically GONE! Otherwise, they show your documents, graphics, etc... and people WILL SEE!!!!!! If you want to prevent it, PREVENT IT! Make it so it CAN'T happen! DON'T go screaming to Google, or against Google. You could hurt EVERYONE, ****INCLUDING**** yourself!

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      The only laws I am aware of that cover this type of thing are copyright, DMCA(prevent them from selling or showing to another), DOS and hacking laws(prevent them from trying to break in), fraud, etc...(prevent them from paying with invalid instruments, excessive refunds, etc...). The idea of treating this like a stolen car, etc... is a stretch. And the Bible doesn't state what stealing is, but holding them to the standards shown in this thread(not even looking at what is given to them, etc...) would not have allowed society to exist.
      Steal Definition | Definition of Steal at Dictionary.com

      Just about every country has laws about taking someone's property without permission. Whether it's called petty theft or larceny, by the strict definition, it's stealing.

      On a practical level, equating boosting an ebook vs. stealing a car might be a stretch. That's why the law has different levels of penalties for dealing with different levels of theft.

      While there is a difference between some kid shoplifting a pair of jeans and a gang doing a smash and grab at a jewelry store, both are stealing. Should the penalties be the same? Obviously not.

      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Let's face it, if it comes up in Google, YOU'VE LOST! You say google is your friend. If you fight them on this, and win, they are basically GONE! Otherwise, they show your documents, graphics, etc... and people WILL SEE!!!!!! If you want to prevent it, PREVENT IT! Make it so it CAN'T happen! DON'T go screaming to Google, or against Google. You could hurt EVERYONE, ****INCLUDING**** yourself!

      Steve
      Now this I agree with 100%.

      If I leave my garage door open and someone boosts one of my tackle boxes, they've broken the law. But it's my own fault for making it easy to steal from me.

      The reality is, people steal. It's a fact, whether they regard it as stealing or feel remorse or not.

      Given that reality, it's up to the property owner to protect their property and to enforce their property rights.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        Steal Definition | Definition of Steal at Dictionary.com

        Just about every country has laws about taking someone's property without permission. Whether it's called petty theft or larceny, by the strict definition, it's stealing.

        On a practical level, equating boosting an ebook vs. stealing a car might be a stretch. That's why the law has different levels of penalties for dealing with different levels of theft.

        While there is a difference between some kid shoplifting a pair of jeans and a gang doing a smash and grab at a jewelry store, both are stealing. Should the penalties be the same? Obviously not.



        Now this I agree with 100%.

        If I leave my garage door open and someone boosts one of my tackle boxes, they've broken the law. But it's my own fault for making it easy to steal from me.

        The reality is, people steal. It's a fact, whether they regard it as stealing or feel remorse or not.

        Given that reality, it's up to the property owner to protect their property and to enforce their property rights.
        HEY, the closest thing in the definition of steal to what is being talked about here is:

        to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgment.
        Even THERE, one could argue about "without right or acknowledgment."! c'est la vie Hey, SAM seems like a nice guy, and I only heard good things about him and his products. Use that, or something similar, and make this moot, or just argue symantics. I will say one thing though. MOST people that steal an informational product probably wouldn't buy it anyway. So your biggest fear is REALLY that they sell to others that WOULD have purchased. And that is against the law in anyone's book.

        You can BET though that someone will complain about google, and google may decide to abandon the market, or tighten things up. It HAS happened before! And Google is no longer just a search engine company. In fact, I have been toying with getting a droid phone, but want to try it out since most of Google's search engines are utter GARBAGE! Google.com(the search engine) is like the ONLY one that is decent AT ALL!

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    BTW WHY would amazon try to steal your stuff? IP addresses may not be kept up to date, and ***THEY*** are the ones that know where it goes. Don't you even PRETEND to know where some person plugged some cable from some router. You only know that at SOME point MAYBE that IANA assigned them that number MAYBE! That is IT! You don't know if bezos, gates, the guy next door to you, or someone in another account on your server did that.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    I meant:

    u⋅su⋅fruct  /ˈyuzʊˌfrʌkt, -sʊ-, ˈyuzyʊ-, ˈyus-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [yoo-zoo-fruhkt, -soo-, yooz-yoo-, yoos-] Show IPA
    Use Usufruct in a Sentence
    See web results for Usufruct
    See images of Usufruct
    -noun Roman and Civil Law. the right of enjoying all the advantages derivable from the use of something that belongs to another, as far as is compatible with the substance of the thing not being destroyed or injured.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Origin:
    1620-30; < LL ūsūfrūctus, equiv. to L ūsū, abl. of ūsus (see use (n.)) + frūctus (see fruit )
    Dictionary.com Unabridged
    Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.
    Cite This Source |Link To Usufruct
    u·su·fruct (yōō'zə-frŭkt', -sə-)
    n. The right to use and enjoy the profits and advantages of something belonging to another as long as the property is not damaged or altered in any way.

    [Late Latin ūsūfrūctus, variant of Latin ūsusfrūctus : ūsus, use; see usual + frūctus, enjoyment; see fruit.]

    The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
    Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
    Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
    Cite This Source

    Word Origin & History

    usufruct

    "right to the use and profits of the property of another without damaging it," 1618 (implied in usufructuary), from L.L. usufructus, in full usus et fructus "use and enjoyment," from L. usus "a use" + fructus "enjoyment," lit. "fruit." Attested earlier in delatinized form usufruit (1478).
    Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper
    Cite This Source

    Financial Dictionary


    Usufruct

    A legal term describing a situation wherein a person or company has a temporary right to use and derive income from someone else's property (provided that it isn't damaged).

    Investopedia Commentary

    Usufruct is recognized only in a few jurisdictions in North America.

    See also: Personal Property

    Investopedia.com. Copyright © 1999-2005 - All rights reserved. Owned and Operated by Investopedia Inc.
    Cite This Source
    Legal Dictionary

    Main Entry: usu·fruct
    Pronunciation: 'yü-z&-"fr&kt, -s&-
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Latin ususfructus from usus et fructus, literally, use and enjoyment
    : the right to the use and enjoyment of another's property and its profits usufruct in the crops of the estate>; especially in the civil law of Louisiana : a personal servitude of limited duration that confers the right of use and full enjoyment of another's property and its fruits
    NOTE: Under the civil law of Louisiana, one having a usufruct in land must deliver it to the owner with its basic substance undiminished at the end of the term; one having a usufruct in consumables acquires ownership of them, but must return their value or things of the same quantity or quality at the end of the usufruct.
    Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
    Cite This Source
    Encyclopedia
    usufruct

    in Roman-based legal systems, the temporary right to the use and enjoyment of the property of another, without changing the character of the property. This legal concept developed in Roman law and found significant application in the determination of the property interests between a slave held under a usus fructus (Latin: "use and enjoyment") bond and a temporary master. Any property acquired by a slave as a result of his labour legally belonged to that master


    Learn more about usufruct with a free trial on Britannica.com.


    Encyclopedia Britannica, 2008. Encyclopedia Britannica Online.
    WHOA, you can't even add a new quote unless the message is 10 chars or more in length! 8-?
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    Whoa,

    Listen it is one thing to say you obtained an ip address it is another altogether to accuse a multibillion dollar company of trying to steal. you could get sued like big time;.

    I don't believe it anyways either someone was logged in and tried to misuse their account or it is an employee that was trying to access the site either way or they masked their ip address so it looked like amazon in which case is the more likely that is not amazon directly and amazon could take action against you for this WTH???

    -WD
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  • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
    Right now i am using a proxy in Slovakia (since something is seriously wrong with my net and i can only reach certain sites via a proxy)...doesn't mean i am in Slovakia

    Furthermore...as i said above...hackers could install scripts and bots on other sites like amazon...and those scripts could automatically scan for them. Just an idea.
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  • Profile picture of the author deckman
    I think that this is "the Gray Area". Either you play in it or you dont an set your morals accordingly.

    If you take someones article or ebook and spin it, wouldnt this be in the gray? You can buy articles spinners to do this but is it morally right? And if so then you have an argument of whose morals.

    If you break a law that you didnt know was a law, well then did you actually break a law if you dont get caught?

    I have bought large ticket items at Home Depot. After I paid and had the stuff loaded I take a look at the receipt to see that I was only charged for 50 instead of 500.
    If I drive off thinking of the great bargain I just got am I really stealing? I think so. I go back in the store to point it out to the cashier and pay the balance. This is my choice and is the right thing to do.

    I know that I sleep better at night living like this.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Cdarklock,

    You are, of course, right there. THOSE are the guys you really can't stop. There are too many ways to do this. SOME even setup honeypots of a sort, and state that if you want more reliable connections, faster access, etc.... and try to hide your access, PAY THEM for it!

    In the 80s, people tried to "copyprotect". STUPID idea. HONEST people lose the ability to backup, etc... DISHONEST people see it as a CHALLENGE and a GAME!

    HEY, I used to be a M/S OEM. One thing they did was they told OEMs about their attacks on pirates. They were COMMON and HUGE! So EVEN M/S has a HUGE problem. And there are many other things they don't bother with.

    I thought about this LONG AND HARD in the 80s, and several times since. NO way is perfect. The BEST way is a periodically expiring license that is remotely enabled, but there ARE a lot of problems with THAT. STILL, hackers LOVE cracking that!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author activetrader
    I have not read the above responses (too many) but this probably means that some affiliates advertise your book on AdWords and this is where the clicks come from - AdWords ads placed on Amazon network
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  • Profile picture of the author babloodmax
    HI Buddy!!! Becoz your content may be agood thing for cover online purchaser ... i think!!! So that Amazon trying to steal your book...

    Thanks for sharing.... Byeee...
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Harken
    Oddly enough, I had a domain (a blogspot thing) that didn't rank for much, and I issued a free report on scribd and my site to try to build a list.

    In the last few days, I've had about 40 hits from amazon.com ... I'm not sure why, but it only dates back to when I released the free pdf.

    I'm really curious about this. I don't think there were any searches for 'Jedi Mind Tricks for Relationships' before this, as I had searched the term, but suddenly I was getting traffic from Amazon - not FROM amazon, I mean, the IP was amazon.com.

    I kind of think they just monitor new ebooks/pdfs or something. It's weird though, that you get that kind of attention from Amazon immediately after any kind of event.

    I'm sorry if I screwed up grammar or spelling, I've had a kitten repeatedly jumping on my hands; hopefully I caught most of the mistakes
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    My target market is not a bunch of brainless music file suckers. Many of them aren't the least bit interested in my ebooks or any ebook that would require that they actually think about making a living or working in some kind of way.

    My ebook is also not a "loss leader". For a month that is normally slow for people, it pulled in a nice $800 or so profit. That's worth protecting to me. If you don't want to do a few things to protect your products, that's certainly your prerogative, but to suggest that you can't do anything about it, and to connect the events of the music industry to the types of products we sell, is just fuzzy logic.
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  • Profile picture of the author whawk57
    'there was nothing you could do to stop it. Adapt or die!'

    Piracy?!? Its enough if one has already bought, so its time to share it.

    Whats wrong with sharing?

    Yeah so maybe going with the flow instead against it . These days young people want to share more if possible and that's really positive.

    I remember back in the early 70s way before the internet, the hippie movement was a lot about love and sharing. It changed a lot of things especially in lifestyles and going green and spiritual upliftin' mindsets.

    So if some one buys the product is bad to share it? Bad mindsets. lol

    Going tribal would be a new kind of beewax . Selling one product to each tribe !

    Or sell to the first 1000 clients then set it for free.

    Like woodstock 69 sold around 100,000 tickets and it was sold out, 400,000 showed up and
    climbed fences , got in free, the gates were left open free.

    Let them have it for free!



    'there was nothing you could do to stop it. Adapt or die!'

    The times are changing. Create something new and forget the competition. Keep creating keep changing. Let it flow, let it grow....

    Peace
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    Peace!



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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by whawk57 View Post

      'there was nothing you could do to stop it. Adapt or die!'

      Whats wrong with sharing?

      Yeah so maybe going with the flow instead against it . These days young people want to share more if possible and that's really positive.

      I remember back in the early 70s way before the internet, the hippie movement was a lot about love and sharing. It changed a lot of things especially in lifestyles and going green and spiritual upliftin'.

      So if some one buys the product is bad to share it? Bad mindsets. lol

      Going tribal would be a new kind of beewax . Selling one product to each tribe !

      Or sell to the first 1000 clients then set it for free.

      Like woodstock 69 sold around 100,000 tickets and it was sold out, 400,000 showed up and
      climbed fences , got in free, the gates were left open free.

      Let them have for free!

      The times are changing.

      'there was nothing you could do to stop it. Adapt or die!'

      Peace


      Peace to you also. I remember hippies well and what they shared primarily was sex (and probably some social diseases as a byproduct). It belonged to them to give away.

      This is pathetic ... trying to call stealing ... sharing and making it somewhat like being charitable ... a real philanthropist. Perhaps this is Nobel Peace Prize material. Geeez ... I've never heard so many excuses for being a common thief in my life.
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      • Profile picture of the author whawk57
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        Peace to you also. I remember hippies well and what they shared primarily was sex (and probably some social diseases as a byproduct). It belonged to them to give away.

        This is pathetic ... trying to call stealing ... sharing and making it somewhat like being charitable ... a real philanthropist. Perhaps this is Nobel Peace Prize material. Geeez ... I've never heard so many excuses for being a common thief in my life.
        Yeah you think so ? Thats all?

        What about organic food? Giving? Green Peace? Alternative lifestyles? Peace makers? etc

        The times are changing. Create something new and forget the competition. Keep creating keep changing. Let it flow, let it grow....

        Stealing? everybody is stealing. Bet you are too, content? ideas? Possessive Mindsets lol
        Just take the word out from the vocabulary.
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by whawk57 View Post

          Yeah you think so ? Thats all?

          What about organic food? Giving? Green Peace? Alternative lifestyles? Peace makers? etc

          The times are changing. Create something new and forget the competition. Keep creating keep changing. Let it flow, let it grow....
          You don't get it. What in the hell does peace, organic food, Green Peace, etc. have to do with stealing crap so you can be the good guy and "share" something that is not yours to share? Stop trying to make a peace movement out of theft.

          Of course hippies shared. Communal living, food, herbs, sex, you name it and of course, while some hippies were undoubtedly common thieves, that isn't what their "sharing" was about. This isn't about hippies. It's about trying to paint your ordinary little thief as something better than he/she is.

          I don't need to adapt and grow and let it flow. I have profitable businesses and take some minimal precautions to keep all the altruistic little thieves from stealing my stuff. It's simple.
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by whawk57 View Post

          Stealing? everybody is stealing. Bet you are too, content? ideas? Possessive Mindsets lol
          Just take the word out from the vocabulary.
          Everybody is not stealing just because you think it's ok.

          Got a question for you. You are in an Internet Marketing forum ... one of the best, if not the best. You're brand new. My guess is you've never created a product to sell.

          What exactly are you looking for here. Trying to learn some valuable info about online business or just checking out the goods to see what you might want to "share".
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
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    Not promoting right now

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  • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
    Jus t finished doing a bit of a cleanup around the house. One of the things I found was a box of cassette tapes (remember them?). Most of them are of albums that I never ever paid for. They were recorded for me by friends, etc.. If I liked the album I would buy the official product. The tape that had that album on it would then be erased and filled with another.

    I even had over 40 tapes that were recorded from the radio by me.

    All that is to say that piracy of copyrighted materials was not brought on by the advent of the internet. It was around during the 70's (from my experience), but was nothing new back then.

    The raison d'etre behind the internet is "the free and open exchange of ideas and information". Nothing at all to do with making money.

    Isn't this debate exactly the same one that Rupert Murdoch is having wth Google at the moment? Mr Murdoch has never got his head around how to fit 21st century technology onto his 19th century business model. Each time he has tried to remodel the technology to fit his business model, there has been a backlash (MySpace, Wall St Journal, etc.).

    Cdarklock is right. The cat is well and truly out of the bag on this, and the entire media industry was caught with its pants down (someone else's quote, I can't remember who).

    Remember when the industry thought that cd duplication technology would be too expensive to make it worthwhile to copy cd's? Oops, pants down on that one.

    Everybody expects something for nothing these days, and that is not going to go away now that it's begun.

    I think WD Products has the right idea. Just accept it is going to happen and plaster everything you release with ads for everything else you release, and consider it free advertising.
    Signature
    Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon.
    It'll just knock over all the pieces, poop on the board, and strut about like it's won anyway.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

      Jus t finished doing a bit of a cleanup around the house. One of the things I found was a box of cassette tapes (remember them?). Most of them are of albums that I never ever paid for.
      Relax; the Audio Home Recording Act says those are legal.

      I think WD Products has the right idea. Just accept it is going to happen and plaster everything you release with ads for everything else you release, and consider it free advertising.
      Doesn't pan out in the end.

      (Pirate downloads product "loads of free money")

      "Buy my other product, 'loads of free traffic'!"

      Hmm, http:some.pirate.site - Search, "loads of free traffic" - ah, there it is. Download.

      The answer is a little harder than that. This is better than nothing, though.
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        Relax; the Audio Home Recording Act says those are legal.
        I know but that was only after the lawyers got involved and made cassette manufacturers pay a fee to the music industry for "lost earnings". This was factored into the price of the cassettes. Obviously this cost was then passed on to consumers.

        I'm still following Google v Murdoch. Like it or not the outcome of that "battle" is going to change EVERYTHING.
        Signature
        Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon.
        It'll just knock over all the pieces, poop on the board, and strut about like it's won anyway.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

          I know but that was only after the lawyers got involved and made cassette manufacturers pay a fee to the music industry for "lost earnings". This was factored into the price of the cassettes. Obviously this cost was then passed on to consumers.
          Not exactly; that was DAT tapes. Standard cassettes never paid a fee because of generational degradation. I remember importing foreign DAT tapes to avoid paying that fee for backup media, back when I ran an ISP.

          Oh, and when you buy "audio" CDRs, you pay a similar fee. The CDR is no different... but you pay more, because it's meant for a consumer A/V unit.
          Signature
          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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          • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            Not exactly; that was DAT tapes. Standard cassettes never paid a fee because of generational degradation. I remember importing foreign DAT tapes to avoid paying that fee for backup media, back when I ran an ISP.

            Oh, and when you buy "audio" CDRs, you pay a similar fee. The CDR is no different... but you pay more, because it's meant for a consumer A/V unit.
            Hmmm. Obviuosly different set of laws in Australia and the US. In Oz they really did add on a few extra cents on the cost of cassettes to "compensate" the record companies.

            Anyway, that is all ancient history now.
            Signature
            Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon.
            It'll just knock over all the pieces, poop on the board, and strut about like it's won anyway.
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    • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
      Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

      Cdarklock is right. The cat is well and truly out of the bag
      We knew this already, look here =>

      Originally Posted by Daniel Harken View Post

      I've had a kitten repeatedly jumping on my hands
      Harvey




      .
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  • Profile picture of the author WebSolutionKey
    Originally Posted by ScoTech View Post

    I produced an ebook and released it using paypal in October, then recently released it on Clickbank. Today I was looking over some stats on my server (wiredtree), and had a look at the error log. Of course there were all kinds of attempts to access myphpadmin and others trying to guess my download page or take advantage of frontpage exploits.

    I wanted to see where the attacks were coming from, so I gathered some of the IP addresses, and looked them up at ip2location, and I got a shock. One of the addresses was an Amazon.com IP, and they tried to guess my download page 9 different ways. What should I make of this?!?! Thank God I use DLGuard and Xsitepro.
    This is scary & disgusting. It happened to me as well. And when i asked for a proper reason, amazon didn't bother to give any explanation. All i got was a mail from them "We recently discovered a problem with a Kindle book that you have purchased". No further explanation. Amazon sucks at times!
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