Do not order from...

Also, for people who want to have a means for potential customers to contact them without exposing their email publicly, they can use Formspring.com: Easy Web Form Builder for Online Forms | FormSpring

They have both a free and paid version. I'm not sure what the paid one includes, but with the free one, you can create "contact" forms and paste them as html or links, and set them up so that once the user submits their question or comment, it goes directly to whichever email address you designate. You can even customize the forms depending on what type of information you want to collect.

Actually that doesn't guarantee that your email address is safe from being scraped.

You just need to program the bot to identify such "patterns" and they can still identify and pick up your email address.

A workaround is to write out your email address on paint or an image editor and save it as an image.

Or put up a web form on your site.

Alternatively, just use Mike Lantz's WSO Pro to manage your WSO, and set it to auto email the user after they have bought. In that way, an instant communication is made. WSO Pro can help solve plenty of hassles for both sellers and buyers.

Jag

Include them as an image. Easy to make with Online Personal Signature Maker - MyLiveSignature - Free Personal Signature Generator, Email Signatures, Blog Signature

That's a really good point...I never thought of it that way.

One issue with that though is that many people (especially new forum members) do the "thanks that was great...blah blah blah" and don't just hit the thanks button b/c they are trying to increase their post count.

Is it still true you have to buy the War Room upgrade to post at all?

I think that's a major sign of someone taking this place seriously...

Cheers,

Brad

I'm new to this forum. I'd like to Thank you and others for their posts. Pray - how do I do that? - is there a Thank This User Button somewhere?

I'm not selling anything at all and am not trying to get my post count up either, however, I did want to extend my thoughts on the subject.

I recently considered some out sourcing due to an unexpected illness keeping me way behind the goals I have projected for myself, and I must tell you, I took one look at the WSO section and, well, basically in a nutshell, got a headache! I left!

It reminded me of looking at abandoned brick buildings with graffitti spray painted every where in a ghetto section of a run down part of a major city!

Please do not misunderstand me, I am not "dissing" anyone, but feel that if there could be perhaps some more rigid guidelines for that section, it would be helpful for this community as a whole!

I'm all for the OP's suggestion, let's keep our community clean and inviting.

Just my thoughts...

MissTerraK

Great OP based on logic and common sense.

Sadly, the very same Warriors who could benefit most from Paul's wisdom...are the very same Warriors who probably WONT bother reading it.

Common sense is never as sexy as a WSO that promises to cure cancer, infidelity, and add 100 yards to your tee shot....in 7 easy steps....for one low payment of $17.97. Wow!

And as long as "a sucker is born every minute" ...there will be someone around to feed them.



xxx Vegas Vince
Legend.

Ahhhhhh! So, that's how it might have happened to me.

I've been getting slammed daily over the past 4 months and have had e'nuff!

However, I NEVER purchased any cheap "inferior" WSOs here. I have actually purchased quality WSOs from quality Warriors (well, at least I thought so, based on all of their highly recommended WSOs and reputation)!

However, I did sign up for a "few" free offers in the WSO section. Maybe it is them! Can't say for sure though.

Well, I'll just have to change my PayPal address then. No big deal to do!

However, come to think of it, I NEVER give my PayPal address (Hotmail.com address to these folks anyway)! It's ALWAYS to one of my other accounts!

So, with that said, I'm baffled now!

Nonetheless, thanks for your wise insight Sherlock!

Cheers,

JMB

P.S. I definitely don't want to think that a Warrior I purchased a WSO from here has done this though, as all of the WSOs I've purchased have rocked!

However, thanks for the heads-up Paul and SageSound!

I'm relatively new but I like the idea of dealing with folks who contribute. I have been starting to become active and will continue to do so - great idea

I'm adding my two cents in with Jody_W although I can easily see where everyone else is coming from.

By way of relevant background, I've owned four businesses in my lifetime (two were successfu) and have been a university department chair and professor of instructional technology for the past 13 years. My work with tech has all been in the area of teaching prospective teachers how to apply technology.

I've been a member for a while now and check out the forum several times a day as I continue to learn so much from everyone here. I've posted a couple of times but only when I thought I had something to add that would genuinely help someone. I've selectively purchased products from Steven Wagenheim's, Don & Jeremy, Jack Duncan, Milan, John (XFactor) and Chris Rempel among others.

The pieces are coming together and I'm making a little money but I have little to contribute in comparison with so many experts on the forum. So . . . I read a lot of posts and hold my peace so as to not get in the way.

However, I think I have some things I can add in the way of a graphics-related product or two but I will never post a WSO until I'm sure I'm not duplicating someone else's effort or offering anything short of a quality product. I think I can make some good contributions to help many of our members but have little time to do more than meet the uber-demands of my job and to try to create a small side income before I retire in May.

I would hate to think I need to come up with creative ways to invent replies to posts to try to build credibility--my expertise is rather narrow right now--but I do understand the point that is being made. It would feel kind of mercenary to me to post simply so I could offer a product down the road when my contributions would be so meager at this point. I would hope I could mitigate the concerns some by the quality and quality of a sales page and by using review copies for selected members.

But then again, maybe that is my obsession with a level of perfection I can never achieve and I should be more concerned about sitting at the table with the family.

I think I've just talked myself into the need for posting more often. I hate it when that happens.

-Richard

Okay, hold on a moment here.

There are a lot of threads started here which amount to "what is your opinion." Two or three a day.

You have an opinion, right?

Now, if you don't understand why you should share it, fine.

Don't try to sell me anything.

Want to sell me something? Show me who you are! Tell me your opinion! Be a real human being right out here where I can see you!

People buy from PEOPLE. Not experts or gurus or geniuses. PEOPLE.

Just be here, be a person, be one of us. 50 posts is nothing if you do that.

You can't. Try to thank your own post, right now.

This was excellent point Paul. I was scammed here two times
and it was guys with less then 100 posts and without any contact
details appart from PM.

Now I am looking at the date they joined the forum, what threads
they started and if they have a decent website that gives some
credibility. But as a rule of thumb I no longer consider purchasing
wsos from members without some reputation in a specific field.

hmmm..I didn't think people could thank themselves...that is a big forum flaw if that's the case. I'm sure some programming genius can fix that in a hurry.

I would agree. Some have their own groups that could exchange one another with the "thanks" button.

Unless you have something more to contribute than one liners to increase your post count, I would not buy. You have 7 posts and haven't said anything remarkable. Why would that lead me to believe that you have something valuable to say in an ebook or that you have a sound product worth parting me and some money? Reputation comes first. If it's too much trouble to build one, you're losing money.

More significant to me is the fact that "you" don't actually exist yet. The thing to which we're responding is a fictional entity - a profile, with no meaningful name, no known character, and no other representation in the real world.

You are an anonymous non-entity at the moment.

It is possible to get past that without a real name associated with your posts, but it's much harder than it needs to be. It takes consistency and contribution, which most nameless profiles never bother developing. It's easier, once on the path of anonymity, to act badly. If you have the idea that you're safe behind the screen, it's often tempting to do things you wouldn't do if people could hold you responsible for your actions.

So, no. I wouldn't buy from you at the moment. Not even if you had 1000 posts of the kind you've made so far.


Paul

As a newbie I can attest that I don't get a whole lot of traffic from WF. However, I get a lot more than just sales in here...

That's the point isn't it? Let people know what you have to offer while building your reputation. Eventually you will get the sales, in the meantime you are learning a ton from the forum.

The OP is right on, don't purchase from someone who hasn't taken the time to read the rules. If they only offer the minimum contact info...when they themselves are not able to utilize it move on. Either they will learn what limits them or they will tire and leave.

I don't know what I think about having a post minimum for buying a thread.... It would definitely declutter the Hire and WSO section.... but then I wouldn't be able to get my measly sales from you lovely warriors So much of IM is trial and error. Maybe there could be a newbie for hire forum? That way we could have our own sandbox to play in without cluttering up the heavy hitters

The juxtaposition of Paul Myers stating not to purchase from folks with less than 50 posts and the fact that the WF allows such posters to pay for advertising space here is a oxymoron of the first order.

I'm in complete agreement with Paul's sentiments.

Perhaps the rules should reflect that philosophy. As it currently stands there is room for confusion on the part of those who don't understand what the WF community is all about.

It's not about paying $20.00 to post your ad. It goes a little deeper than that.

Unless you're new here and read the requirements regarding paying for ad space. Then that $20.00 becomes the significant threshold.

It may be time to rectify the situation. Right now $20 will buy credibility simply by association. If you come here and you don't know better, you could easily transfer the goodwill and authority of the WF to anyone who pays for adspace.

Why wouldn't you. This is, afterall, The Warrior Forum.

KJ

Hi Jody_W,

I mean this in the nicest possible way, but if someone -

a) 'doesn't have experience'

b) 'doesn't have anything useful to say'

What's the likelihood that they'll have anything useful to sell?

Hi Steven,

It's great to see you playing devil's advocate - I've learnt a lot from doing that. But on this occasion, I disagree with your point.

If you notice I said -

The important word being 'likelihood.' Sure, it's possible. But it's unlikely.

I think the WSO section can survive without WSOs from people who are gifted in one area, but are also lousy businessmen. Once you try and cater to everyone, regardless of whether they only have one skill, you ruin it for everyone.

And besides, if that small group of people find it hard to sell WSOs here, so what? They can always go and sell them to the great big world of 'the internet.' I was under the impression that the WSO forum was a service for this community to use. And if someone doesn't want to become part of the community, why shouldn't people be advised that it's best not to buy off them?

On the subject of forum community, I see what was a great community being eroded right before my eyes, partly due to the WSO forum.

It's one thing seeing it being eroded, but in truth I actually see it being destroyed - because it's getting to a point where people like myself who never sell anything here, but have spent hours offering thoughts, advice and other stuff - which others suggest has been helpful - cannot participate in the same manner anymore for a variety of reasons - chiefly that the main venue for doing so was main discussion, and main discussion has become over-run with shill posters upping their post count (presumeably to try and look like 'community participants') and people who, for whatever reason, are spreading misleading, dangerous and generally incorrect information.

Their numbers are so great now that even I can't be bothered to argue/debate with them. And the quantity of new, but genuine community members who will argue against someone correcting bad information, usually because they 'don't like the tone' or don't like to see newbies being bullied - has also increased - which again, causes the bad info to be left unchallenged.

I don't want to drone on about this in too much depth, even though I could.

Instead, keeping on topic with the thread, I'll give you all the details of a ten minute study I did in the WSO forum.

********************************

(Bear in mind that I am going to reveal some giveaway signs here, so those giveaway signs will possibly be altered/disappear and may not giveaway as much in future, if the people responsible actually read this - I still think it's worth posting this, so that you can see my thought process and use it in future to help you make buying decisions.)

I went to the WSO forum, and I opened a bunch of threads that all had usernames (the OP) that I didn't recognise, and that all had usernames along the lines of 'joebloggs84' or 'dave d' or similar. (Those are made up.) They also had specific income claims in the title, for silly amounts like $5342 per week or $2834 per day.

After looking at a few of them, I immediately noticed a pattern. The seller made the second post to the thread which consisted of 'answers to questions' or 'frequently asked questions' - which I assume is meant to imply that people had asked questions and the seller had decided to answer them in one post.

It's also a good sales tactic - it handles objections (which answers questions in prospect's minds) as well as providing some activity on the thread, rather than it having 'no new posts.'

As I perused these WSOs, the next thing I did was to read through in order to go 'shill-spotting'. When I do this, I am looking for posts to the thread that could possibly be made by the seller themselves under a different ID.

I've become quite good at this over time. One method is to follow sig links and research the sites. I found that many of the possible shills I found didn't have sig links.

Obviously there were many posts from possible shills that were from new IDs with low post counts. But I also found many possible shills that had quite seasoned IDs - many over a year old, and even the occasional one that appeared to have been groomed into a full blown community member with photo and sig and higher post count.

Most of this is speculation, as it's almost impossible to be certain, but I have become quite good at this, and I did detect what I perceive as a fair amount of shilling.

Here's what I found that was concrete -

You can discover much more by opening multiple threads at once and then skimming through, observing the names and looking for cross posting.

I found one seller who is using different IDs to sell, but is using the exact same business name on their paypal account. (Just click through on the buy button and it's there.) This seller puts out 2 WSOs in a row, under each warrior ID.

I found another seller with another ID where I was convinced it was the same person, as the WSOs were so similar in format. After checking, I found they had a different business name at paypal.

BUT - after checking the thread, I found the same possible shill posters buying all the WSOs and I even found the seller of the similar WSO allegedly buying it, and leaving a glowing testimonial. In other words - their cross-posting gave them away.

As for the genuine Warriors - I saw a lot of them buying these WSOs. Obviously, this can make it difficult to isolate the shills, and also from a potential buyer's perspective, it makes it harder to spot a fake, because all of these WSOs had at least one warrior who appears to be established and genuine, leaving a testimonial.

There are obviously many genuine warriors who are desperately buying info products, looking for 'secrets'. In my opinion, they won't find them in these products. If the products weren't recycled rubbish (probably plaguarised rubbish) why would the seller need to set up two warrior IDs that both sell WSOs, and why would they appear to have a lot of shilling going on?

So to put it in perspective, there is (presumeably) an organised group of individuals, with differing business names at paypal, and (seemingly) with access to a large amount of shill accounts at warrior - many of which are not new accounts - who are releasing various WSOs currently on 'tried and tested' subjects.

This is not really a surprise to me, as I do my homework and read around many forums, and this has been discussed elsewhere. If it is the same group, then you would not want to do business with them. You wouldn't even want them to have your email address.

*************************

I discovered this in ten minutes - about four times less time than it took me to write this. I probably wouldn't have bothered writng this, but I'm really ill with 'man flu' and can't sleep.

To finish, I'll add that in the last six months, I've noticed that in main discussion -

Quite often, over half the thread titles have ridiculous spelling errors. Does this matter? Not particularly, but I do feel it's symptomatic of underlying changes.

The balance between genuine discussions about marketing, and pointless, repetitive threads such as 'google wave invites', 'how can I make money with $20' and those other type of questions which are usually about something specific, but due to the nature of them even 1000 answers is going to leave the OP none the wiser (EG 'how many days between emails', 'one big site or multiple sites') - has changed so that there are many more of the latter, and much less of the former.

Just scanning through the front page of the forum, I could give you countless examples of the type of threads that a year or so ago, would not have been tolerated without someone pointing out that the OP was taking up valuable forum space with a stupid thread.

Those days appear to have gone. Along with many of the posters with experience and a generous nature who would 'tell it like it is.'

Shame, that.

Hi WDProducts,

Sorry mate, but I'm not about to start PMing individuals about this and I don't want to be answering any PMs about it. Might sound harsh, but it's also logical - I'm currently poorly, and I'm also a businessman who only has so much available time. Sorry 'bout that.

If you follow the clues I have given you in post#92, it's not too hard to find the people concerned (start by checking the first page of WSOs looking for those who post two WSOs in a row with specific income claims in the title. Check the format of the WSO, especially the second post being FAQs - then check the paypal business name via the buy button. Then just look at the testimonials and the alleged buyers and the other posts of the sellers and eventually you'll see they have posted on each others' WSOs.)

I'll PM the mods now and just double check that I can post the five warrior IDs that I have identified that are in on this. Then if allowed, I'll come back and post their IDs here.

Update - I was about to out them, but got a PM at the same time as I posted, so I deleted the 'outing' post. I hope the management deal with this as I have seen many genuine warriors who have bought from these sellers, and they weren't cheap products.

I'll leave it to the mods, see what occurs and then come back and post again if necessary.

Hi,

It's been a few hours since I reported all of the five peoples' WSOs, and nearly all of them seem to be still there.

I realise that what I discovered is not entirely conclusive of scamming, but is it OK for WSOs to posess these factors -

a) it's OK to have multiple WSOs running, using multiple warrior IDs, all taking payment at the exact same two paypal addresses?

b) it's OK for these same WSOs, to mysteriously have testimonials and buyers leaving comments who are 1) the same people across all of the WSOs 2) the actual sellers - supposedly buying the products off 'each other' and leaving glowing reviews?

If it's not OK for these things to happen, please let me know mods - because my sense of social responsibility is being tested, and seeing these WSOs still running makes me want to out the names of the sellers here, so that potential buyers can see what I have seen and use that to help them make a buying decision.

Roger, I just read your response to my Devil's advocate and then your
assessment of the forum and what's been happening as far as the type
of posts now found in General Discussion.

I agree with you. How can I not? It is what it is.

Having said that, and heaven knows I have really tried so hard to tow the
line around here since my early days, I rarely start a thread in this part
of the forum anymore because, quite honestly, I no longer have any idea
what is allowed and not allowed.

All I know, from what I have been told by people like John Taylor, who I
respect so much, is that article length "how to" posts are not for here but
for your blog. Okay, got that...eliminated.

So what's left?

Asking a question?

Unless it's technical (I hate technology) I don't have many questions
anymore and have also been told that technological questions belong
asked at forums dealing with that technology.

So I no longer ask them here either.

So what's left for me essentially is just to answer the questions of the
other members here...which is now essentially what I do.

Ultimately, this leaves us with very little that can be posted here, as far
as thread starters that is of much value unless it's alerting us to
something going on with some site like EZA, Google, Clickbank or whatever
or asking questions.

Sadly, as you pointed out, a lot of the questions are pretty lame.

There isn't a lot of imagination left when it comes to initiating discussion.

Do I have a solution? No...I don't.

It's going to take somebody with a lot more smarts than myself to come
up with one.

These days, I just try to do the best I can to keep out of trouble.

Anyway, I enjoyed reading your thoughts and I do agree with them.

Thank you for being a very valuable member of this forum.

Hi WD,

I don't think multiple reports will make any difference. I have sympathy for the forum, who are running a large, busy operation, and this appears to be have been reasonably cleverly carried out.

Hi Diana/Steven - thanks.

Steven - as I said overleaf, I literally went to the WSO forum earlier because I couldn't sleep, and decided to check a few out to examine 'the state of play' in the marketplace.

I found a few that looked interesting. Once I got into them, I then went 'shill-hunting' and very quickly found that each one leads to the other.

And of course I scanned page 1/2 for others that matched -

a) specific, silly income claims in title

b) two WSOs bumped together

c) sellers I didn't recognise (not too difficult nowadays :rolleyes

Pretty soon I found that if any had a certain font, formatting and the giveaway 2nd post FAQ...

Then you go to the sellers profile and check their other WSOs for confirmation.

Anyone can do this, more people should.

Frankly I'm shocked at some of the pople I have seen buying these expensive WSOs, particularly those who left testimonials and weren't shilling.

Obviously, the products probably aren't too bad. But if so, why the shady behaviour? Something's not right.

Perhaps it just goes to highlight that -

a) any fool can make ridiculous income claims, (perhaps forge them) but when asked say 'they come with the product' and people are happy with that

b) any fool can make a lot of money (it would seem) by simply making high income claims and then banking on peoples' greed and other weaknesses

c) putting out very similar products - one of these sellers did a blog flipping WSO, and then a site flipping one. When questioned, they claimed they were totally different. But where they?

d) regardless of threads like this, people don't do due-diligence and often don't know how to. None of these buyers checked the other WSOs by the seller it would seem, otherwise they would have asked themselves - 'if they have done 5 WSOs all with massive income claims, then after adding it up that means they must earn $50k per day. Is that believable?'

Edit

Hi Steven,

Well if you understood my previous post (which you really might have read before initially responding - another of my bug-bears) then you will see that my gripes are not aimed at mods.

You say -

...but to be honest, the way your above post comes across it seems like your feigning lack of common sense in order to pass the buck onto the mods. Sorry if that's harsh, but I say it as I see it.

All you've ever needed to do in my opinion Steven is this -

a) avoid making unnecessary drama

b) post more helpful posts than self-promotional ones, or ones that could be construed as such

c) reply to threads more than starting them

d) use common sense to understand what goes where - try and predict what your actions will force the mods to do

Note - I'm not using absolutes like - 'never start a thread.' Just obvious stuff like 'reply to more than you start.'

I'm not trying to get at you, and I might be a proper hypocrite considering what I've posted above which might break rule 1. Regardless, I feel I've applied due common sense before posting it. But I accept it if the right people correct me on that.

But there was another incident that I won't drag up, which made you look quite bad. Perhaps that incident affected how you were treated from then onwards? Come on mate, no short memories, no playing dumb. I've 'forgotten' about it purposely. Have you?

As I said, I like to see people (like yourself) playing devil's advocate, cleverly - in order to get a positive result.

I think it's great for debate and learning.

What I don't think is so good is being over-dramatic, or feigning ignorance about obvious common sense issues, in order to transfer responsibility onto others.

Steven. You, I and a few thousand others here are pretty damn sure that that is the exact opposite of what you did here since day 1.

BUT -

There's nothing so wrong with that. The world needs rebels, non-conformists and those with lots to say as much as it needs everyone else.

Just don't live in denial. It's not grown-up.

Overleaf in the thread you were suggesting their WSOs should not be discouraged, even if the techies have no other skills, and zero business skills.

You see some of us have good memories. And we can also read people quite well, even just from text.

It only takes common sense to solve this never-ending confusion you have. Common sense says the ones shipped to other places on the forum were because you were continually having sly digs at a mod (like you are still), and other threads were self-promotional, (you seem to have stopped that now - good show) - and the rest, well it aint rocket science. I'm not a mod but I understood it - it was obvious. If you take on the powers that be in a non democratic environment, they will win. So don't take them on. Play by the rules. Do their job for them as best as you can. Simple.

To clarify - what I am saying overleaf and here is not to point the finger at anyone (except for the WSO outing post). But to point out that there is a unique community here. Which is why it is under attack - others are jealous because they have pathetic, pale imitations of it. I understand that time brings change, and I'm old enough to have learnt to accept it in the right circumstances.

But conversely, as the standard drops in general, the more it displays a sign called 'weakness' to those who would criticise, mobilise and attack.