The Truth About "High" Earning Claims

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In last few weeks I've seen a fair few comments about income claims, screenshots and even questioning why products that teach others how to do the same are being sold.

I wouldn't want to hinder these questions from being asked (far from it) but when I see insinuations being made without any support, I'm just going to point them to this thread so I don't end up repeating myself.

Hopefully the successful Warriors will know where I'm coming from with this.

We often see these kind of questions:

Q: "If they really make money, why do they sell their secret system?"

A: Business is business. The aim of any business is to grow. If selling the system makes just a 5% or 10% increase of revenue, it's worth doing - (as long as you don't give away your niches in the process).

That 10% could well mean the difference between employing someone, giving them and their family stability, during a recession.

In the 80's when Bill Gates created the MS-DOS operating system and IBM decided to use it on all their home computers, Mr Gates didn't rest on his laurels, he used it as a means to dominate the PC market for the next 30+ years.

Plus the only 'secret' is the stuff that you don't know. There's more than enough info on this forum to teach you everything you need to know without having to buy a system. And many colleges run free or cheap business courses that you can attend - these are amazing resources that everyone should be taking advantage of if you're serious about building a business.


Q: "Are all screenshots faked?"

A: Look at your nearest city. There's hundreds if not thousands of businesses in hundreds of niches all making substantial income.

An Internet business isn't that different from a bricks and mortar business. They both require the same thing - hard work and solid business sense.

Many, including myself, use the label 'Internet markter'. In the offline world we would just be considered as having good business acumen. Business is business, no matter which medium you choose.

There's more smart business people coming into the IM world, and soon.

Right now many are ahead of the curve, but the Internet is going to be the place to do business. And when that happens, maybe conversations like this won't be required anymore, and those of us who have the head start will be the people to do business with.

The bottom line is:
If you don't believe it's possible to build a successful business (anywhere), then attempting to run a business probably isn't for you.
#claims #earning #high #truth
  • Profile picture of the author Lady
    This question I have had and I will admit I have become a jaded in this matter. Having now read your point of view especially using the BillGates scenario, it makes perfect scenes.
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    • Profile picture of the author JK Nyerere
      Originally Posted by Lady View Post

      This question I have had and I will admit I have become a jaded in this matter. Having now read your point of view especially using the BillGates scenario, it makes perfect scenes.
      The Bill Gates Scenario does not make any sense whatsoever.

      Bill Gates went on to "buy" and expand his business by selling more software and the like. He did not go out and sell courses revealing his secrets on how to make a billion in 5 years.

      By the way, do you think that if Gill Gates did decide to produce a MMO product, do you think you too could make a $5 Billion in 5 years by following his step by step methods?

      Donald Trump was trained and inherited the foundations of his wealth from his father, so I would not even use him as an example.

      90% of income claims are false or vastly fudged. I do not understand why anybody in the know would dispute that. This is simply because if you are an expert weight loss for eample, you would be selling weight loss products and expanding your empire in the weight loss industry. If you are an expert in trading currency, you would be making a killing expanding your account in the fx market. You would not be designing FX robots to release to the general market.

      It does not make any sense to reveal your secrets, unless if you are making more money from selling MMO products than selling your supposed core expertise. And this usually happens when you actually do not have any "core expertise". Because if you did, you would not need to sell MMO. Time is limited, so why go off tangent and sell outside your core market ? That is why 90% of people who sell MMO are fakes.

      Doing so is nevertheless a good business model. Lets see:

      step1: create some fake screenshots and sell a MMO ebook on clickbank from rehashed content you have gathered from other fake screenshot CB ebooks.

      step2: now that you have sales from your fake screenshot product, create another product that shows how successful you are selling clcickbank products. This time you would be using the real screenshots from the success of step 1.

      step 3:By now you are a guru to many WF members who just discovered IM in the last month as your ebook is the first they have come across. Lots of affiliates will be promoting your ebook all over the WF forum and internet. You are a hero to them as you have revelead to them how preselling works, how to use market samurai, how to use GG content network etc.

      They have never heard about this before, so you are a genius to them.

      step3: you use your new guru status and huge list to sell big ticket seminar and CPA courses. Due to the size of your list, you make a plenty of sales which gives you access to the tier1 gurus who make $20M and $100,000 per day.

      step4: now you can speak at seminars to teach other people internet marketing and charge $1M per hour for consulting.

      Now you have made it and can live the dream!

      People already in IM do not realize that there are 100,000 new people entering the IM niche every month. If you know a thing or two and are industrious, these newbies are where you can start your legitimate empire from, as long as you create information that a newbie will deem useful.

      After all Coca Cola will not give you a smile. It will juts give you rotten teeth and gas. But people still buy it. Its all marketing

      ---------------

      As you can see from the ultra business model above, it is all about marketing.

      I bought my girlfriend the L'Oreal shampoo and cosmetics but she still did not look like Eva Longoria.

      So should I sue L'oreal fro selling me a lie. Of course not. It's marketing, just like the fake screenshots.
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      • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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        • Profile picture of the author Intrepreneur
          All VERY True but one thing that the overnight rags to riches people shouldn't be doing is passing the system of as doable for anyone that buys their product. I would hope that I will never partake in such activities in my entire life and I'm sure I will never need to. I suppose it's all down to the copywriters... they want paid so they find the rags to riches stories and get to work making the product and copy.. sometimes they go too far with it all which IMO is just greedy and selfish. If it were me I'd pass and find all the fat loss experts to write copy for instead. GREED is the driving force.
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        • Profile picture of the author JK Nyerere
          Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

          It does make sense, if you study how they went about this (and a minor correction to Louise's post).

          Bill Gates didn't create MS-DOS - when IBM was looking of an OS for their new line of personal computers, Microsoft bought the rights to a CP/M clone called 86 DOS (IBM renamed this to PC DOS after signing off with Microsoft).
          Yawn. That is general knowledge. Anybody with any slight interest in business over the last 20 year will know the Microsoft Public Relations Department press release version of the birth of Microsoft. Nobody is disputing that.

          Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

          Lesson #1 - You've identified a demand for a product in a fairly new market.

          Lesson #2 - You have the vision to see that demand for this product will continue grow, even 20 years down the road and on a global basis at that.

          Lesson #3 - Rather than re-invent the wheel, you buy the rights to an existing product that is suitable to fill the initial demand.

          Lesson #4 - You could in turn, sell the rights to the product for a lump sum payment, but because you've caught the vision of Lesson #3, you instead license the product to IBM and PC Clone manufactures for something like $15 per computer.

          Lesson # 5 - You assemble a team to continue development of the CP/M clone, brand it under the Microsoft brand, and focus on upgraded releases to support emergent technologies.

          Overall, you've got to see that Gates and company weren't greedy on the front end. They took a risk, for certain, in following their vision of a desktop computer in every home.

          And rather than just work exclusively with IBM, they say the potential in branding their product, continuing development to build it into the 90% + marketshare they have today on desktop computers.

          Finally, they didn't rest on their laurels - they expanded into other areas, especially focusing on the eventual development of a suite of of products called Office, which they promoted heavily to the corporate world.

          So again, you only need to study how they got there to see the validity in Louise's OP.
          You are missing the point.

          Bill gates does NOT sell "how to get rich in software products". His company sells software, games, ads etc.

          Bill Gates, Richard Branson, Slim Helu, Prince Waleed, Mital, Ambani Brothers, Abramovich, Sergei Brin, etc.
          DO NOT CLAIM TO SELL THEIR SECRETS!

          That is the not so subtle distinction.

          If you can't see this distinction then lets just agree to disagree.

          Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

          I'd really like to see where you obtained those numbers from - unless of course you just pulled them out of your ass...I don't need to see that
          Kind of.
          I market my own products and JV with plenty of people with sizeable lists. In personally knowing these people over the years and the claims they make on their websites, it is quite clear they are lying.

          I have also bought hundreds of products over the years and have reviewed the systems claimed. Half the time I have already used the sytem and 90% of the time the claims are clearly false or exaggerated or taken out context.

          I know you know that too, but somehow you feel the need to defend the integrity of "your community". So my stats would not pass HBS case study scrutiny, but for the sake of this post, it is pretty close to accurate.

          Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

          I'm not suggesting that some people do not fake screenshots, but no one knows what the percentage of faked ones really are, now do we?
          Well of course not. We can only ascertain those figures from personal experience. I never claimed to have done a scientific study on Clickbank fraud rates. I thought that was obvious and went without saying. Next time I will put a *disclaimer so as to not mislead anyone.

          Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

          The problem with your thinking, is that's it's linear - you're assuming that a profitable business is only going to focus on it's core business model, which is far from reality in most cases.
          I have not expressed my thoughts, just my experience.
          The only problem I see is somebody trying to defend the indefensible.

          Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

          Let's use Microsoft as an example again - their core business is made up of the Windows Operating System and MS Office. By core, I mean those two divisions generate the bulk of Microsoft's earnings. And yet, Microsoft has it's fingers into hardware, games, email services, seach engines, etc., etc..
          That is general knowledge and a very poor example at that.

          The distinction is that Microsoft does not sell their money making secrets. Why should you? Why would anyone?

          Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

          The same is true of MMO products - somebody puts together a successful method for making money, and their core business model uses that system again and again to generate revenue. A logical extension of that business model is the development of an ebook, training courses, coaching, etc., creaing additional revenue streams to grow the business logically.
          In psychology their is a topic called "discourse analysis".
          The subject can help to reveal the true nature of someones words.

          Here you write: "somebody puts together a successful method for making money"

          Therein lies the problem.

          Successful methods of making money are NOT "put together". Can you "put together" a successful marriage for example? Of course not.

          Your above statement clearly shows to me above anything else that we come from different worlds and we will never meet eye to eye on this topic.

          You seem to be in the business of "putting together" successful methods for making money. I come from a world of "building" businesses. I guess that is why we do not see eye to eye.

          Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

          Think they don't do that offline? It's called Franchising and it's done in many makets, i.e.; fast food, mini-markets, gas stations and so forth. The purpose of franchising is to grow the brand, profit from it's growth, but leaving the management/liabilities on third parties who make significant investments in what is more or less an MMO product.
          Yet another very poor example.
          "Franchising is the practice of using another person's business model. The franchisor grants the independent operator the right to distribute its products, techniques, and trademarks for a percentage of gross monthly sales and a royalty fee."...Source:Wikipedia.

          Most MMO vendors will not be earning any royalties. That is the main difference.

          If I reveal to you my $20M per day secrets and get 10% if you implement it while at the same time you are contactually obliged to buy your Sesame seed buns, burger meat and Big Mac sauce from me for the life of your franchise; makes perfect sense.

          However, revealing my genuine $20M per day secrets for $97 to 1000 people does not.

          A franchisee is for the most part a glorified employee.

          If you think that Forced continuity is the same thing as franchising, well.


          Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

          I own a very successful online business, which continues to see exceptional growth, year-after-year. I don't stop there - I've got my fingers into numerous online business activities that all contribute to the bottom line.

          One of my goals for 2010 is to launch a series of no-nonsense MMO products that are easy to replicate and grow in the long-term. They are all based on my own education, experience and various business models I use successfully.
          Congratulations and I do not doubt you in any way.

          I know a few people who sell fake screen shot products and they too are doing very well. The Mafia is also doing very well this year. So is the Taliban for that matter.

          How well individual entities are doing though is neither here nor there.

          Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

          Why sell them? To add another revenue stream to the bottom line.
          Absoultely. But does what you are selling work as you claim it does?
          (Disclaimer: I am not suggesting YOUR personal products are suspect in any way. I am referring to the products in the general MMO marketplace. Do not take it personally as I am sure you are highly regarded in this forum)


          Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

          Nice post Louise
          But her example on Bill Gates does not make any sense.

          The OPs commentswere not on whether online marketing works. Come to think of it, I do not even remember the original OP's statement. I will therefore stop here.
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          • Profile picture of the author Killer Joe
            Originally Posted by JK Nyerere View Post

            I market my own products and JV with plenty of people with sizeable lists. In personally knowing these people over the years and the claims they make on their websites, it is quite clear they are lying.
            Interesting admission to say the least.

            KJ
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  • Profile picture of the author Kevin_Hutto
    I agree Louise... There are lots of people who are cut out to be employees not entrepreneurs. It sounds sexy and exciting to say I own a business, but in reality it is a lot of hard work on the front end often without much benefit. And most arent willing to do what it takes to get there... Secondarily, it takes some level of sophistication to actually be able to observe and make rational deductions -- which is often not the case with the persons asking those type questions.

    If you think about it logically, screenshots of earnings dont even have to be fake. It would be easy to spend 10k on adwords over a few days and make a bunch of clickbank sales -- even at a loss -- just to get the income screenshots and launch their new product. Even if its not that sinister, one must at least understand that earnings screenshots on clickbank or wherever are only indicative of topline sales and not net profit.

    So, bottom line... Even if those screenshots are real they may not tell the whole story -- BUT -- that still doesnt mean the guy is a scammer or that the system doesnt work. It very well might work great, if you work it like he did.
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  • Profile picture of the author freudianslip27
    Excellent post Louise,

    We are still in the "wild west" of the internet, and even though there are plenty of legitimate products out there that really do work (if you take the time to do them of course), there are also some scammers and screen shot fakers. Just like there are scammers offline too of course.

    I think that as a society we focus on the negatives, and when people here "internet marketing", they associate it with spam or craigslist scams. You are totally right, the tide will continue to change.

    Matt
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  • Profile picture of the author 1960Texan
    Originally Posted by Louise Evans View Post

    Right now many are ahead of the curve, but the Internet is going to be the place to do business.
    As has been said many times before, websites are the new real estate.

    There's nothing wrong with a healthy dose of skepticism as long as it's not overdone. Oddly enough, many of those that think making a living on the Internet is too good to be true have already purchased quite a few things online. Ah well, we all need customers.

    Will
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    Hmmm.

    Ok I will give a different perspective.

    Yes it happens every day businesses make nice chunks figure out how to do something and by all means capitalize on that.

    However.
    When a person who makes say 10 grand in 2 days develops a "system" and then advertises the amounts that is the hook. the reason it is now banned without actual proof of the average users expectation is because of all the crap being spewed and false hope and "results not typical" scenario A lot of good people get sucked in looking for that magic key of which one does not exist. no matter what system it requires work and effort .

    I disagree that we should consider it legit and most businesses don't advertise how much they made or make. have you ever seen a brick and mortar business advertise "We made 10, 345.67 in one day come ask us how?" NO online there are many scurvy dogs who aim to take advantage of people and that is Not Cool at all. and they use the How I made or Discover my secrets to XXXX dollars.

    Hogwash! every single system no mater what it is requires learning work and promotion. no matter what it is. and just because I could advertise saying hey guys I made 20 grand in less then a month doesn't mean YOU are going to do the same.

    -WD
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    • Profile picture of the author Louise Green
      Originally Posted by WD Mino View Post

      I disagree that we should consider it legit and most businesses don't advertise how much they made or make. have you ever seen a brick and mortar business advertise "We made 10, 345.67 in one day come ask us how?"
      Our market place expects, no - demands that we show evidence when selling a business model.

      If you're a property developer you invite people in to walk around your show homes.

      It depends on your market place wants and what it expects.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ryan6
    90%+ of the people that throw up these screenshots/ secret claims etc are full of BS. Just look through the ads/marketing sections of Clickbank to see just how bad it is. If you hit gold, you don't sell your treasure map for a mere few dollars now do ya? I don't see what your point is really, most people can tell the difference between an opportunist and someone who actually knows what they're doing. The latter don't have the time to mess around revealing secrets that would no doubt become saturated in no time.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Originally Posted by Louise Evans View Post

    Look at your nearest city. There's hundreds if not thousands of businesses in hundreds of niches all making substantial income.

    An Internet business isn't that different from a bricks and mortar business. They both require the same thing - hard work and solid business sense.

    The bottom line is:
    If you don't believe it's possible to build a successful business (anywhere), then attempting to run a business probably isn't for you.
    The difference between internet marketing claims and brick and mortar businesses is that the brick and mortar businesses are mostly selling physical goods or services, they are not selling dreams of becoming wealthy by buying the vendors ebook.

    Can it happen? Sure it can, but that doesn't mean a lot of those screen shots aren't faked. Believing in possibilities and being skeptical of bold claims are two different things entirely.

    Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but you seem to be saying that if you question income earnings screen shots then attempting to run a business probably isn't for you. I've worked for myself since 1997, full-time since 1999, would you say running a business probably isn't for me? Because I think most of those screen shots are either faked or they aren't telling the whole story.

    For example, a screen shot may show earning $50,000 in one month, but how much of that is profit? Maybe the person spent $55,000 on advertising and lost $5,000 - there's no way to know, and therefore the screen shots are irrelevant. Do you realize how easy it is to fake screen shots? You don't even need a graphics editor.

    To tell someone that running a business may not be for them based on skepticism of earning claims is quite a stretch.
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    • Profile picture of the author Louise Green
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but you seem to be saying that if you question income earnings screen shots then attempting to run a business probably isn't for you.
      I'm not saying that all Dennis. I actually said I wouldn't want to hinder it, it's the insinuations that I'm talking about.. the lumping everyone into the same boat as scammers, based on a few bad eggs.
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      • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
        Originally Posted by Louise Evans View Post

        I'm not saying that all Dennis. I actually said I wouldn't want to hinder it, it's the insinuations that I'm talking about.. the lumping everyone into the same boat as scammers, based on a few bad eggs.

        Hi Louise .if i sold my tech business I would open the books to prove what I made. YES.

        I would not however advertise the average job i make 300.00 now you can too.

        there to me is a huge difference. we talk about the refund part .hogwash a ton of people use the guarantee but it is like the old saying a guarantee is only as good as the person offering it.

        There is way way too much garbage offered with wild income claims and let me make one more point. how do we know the people advertising didn't rip off x amount of people ,use black hat tactics, or other sleezy things. I mean I don't advertise the income I advertise the solution. the income is expected but there also is one other thing lots of folks make huge lumps in 2 days because they have 45-50 80- etc Affiliates and partners drving traffic and sweetening the deal with "bonus offers" if they buy through their link.

        All I am saying is people get sucked in and that is why the FTC stepped in with the regs of it. if results are not typical be quiet about it.
        -WD
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Our market place expects, no - demands that we show evidence when selling a business model.
      Only if you are working in the "make money online" niche.

      There's another reason to be cautious of the "how to make money" methods, especially the ones that are very narrowly targeted techniques. That is because the person used the method, it worked, it's close to the end of its shelf life and the last money to be made from it is to write it up and sell it.

      kay
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  • Profile picture of the author Kevin_Hutto
    Many franchises use similar tactics to attract franchise owners. You can spend a million dollars and buy a Mcdonalds franchise and still have it fail. So it is not just on the internet -- plenty of people lose money starting bricks and mortar businesses -- just usually they lose it all and go bankrupt instead of losing $47 on an ebook. Also, these days, most people offer pretty liberal return policies (other than the google cash, ****, and other obvious scammers) -- so even if you buy it and dont like it, you can get your money back.
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  • Profile picture of the author DogScout
    I dunno about using the BG story as an example. At least from what I know of what he did THEN, I'd rather live under a bridge. In my humble opinion, the 'atonements he is making with his foundation, etc are not anything that he doesn't owe. (Of course what he did to IBM after they decided to NOT use his MS-DOS OP does make me smile, none the less. and the people his foundation helps makes me smile as well. Maybe the ends justify the means, but I doubt he would have even fathomed these ends. In my humble opinion, he is one of the few leopards to ever change his spots. (I am one of those as well, just not as ruthless, smart and positioned as he was or made himself.)

    But that is just me.

    As to whether people still make money on the internet in business models they sell, to think everyone is like BG was is an extremely jaded view of humanity. Although I am sure there is a large percentage of above average selfish people (50% by definition), there are also a lot of kind hearted souls and many of them do not share successful business models for 5 or 10% but rather as a way to 'pay it forward' or 'give back'. Either because it is in their nature to help their fellow man in anyway they can without making their family live under a bridge or it is in their nature to do what they feel is the next right thing to do and sharing a successful business model occurred to them as the next right thing.

    Now, it may not always be easy to tell which is which, but that is a different story.
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    • Profile picture of the author Louise Green
      Originally Posted by DogScout View Post

      I dunno about using the BG story as an example.
      Next time I'll use Donald Trump

      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      Only if you are working in the "make money online" niche.
      Yep. The weight loss niche will show before/after, all depends on your market.
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  • Profile picture of the author Louise Green
    Fair points WD. I can only base things on my own experiences, from my own perspective.

    The idea of ripping people off and scammy stuff doesn't equate in my thinking, but yes you're right people do choose to do business in that way, and it's makes business difficult for the rest of us.

    Originally Posted by DogScout View Post

    I have been scammed as many as most... 5 figures worth before I 'came to'
    Oh man. I'm really sorry to hear that.
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    Bravo, Louise...

    Great post, great mind!

    I will be storing a link to this thread, so I can point people here for reference in the future!!!



    Peace

    Jay
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  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    Sometimes, even if the income claims are completely correct and the screenshots completely authentic, it could still be a gross misrepresentation of the actual situation.

    It is generally accepted that gross rather than net income is normally quoted. The difference between gross and net could be enormous when staff are employed.

    In the case of screenshots, the seller can easily use that of the busiest day e.g. the launch date of the product rather than an average day.

    I don't buy many IM products, but I have been scammed many times by false income claims and earnings screenshots made by sellers of established websites. Therefore, I no longer take them seriously but use other methods to determine the validity of their claims.
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  • Profile picture of the author LetsGoViral
    It's easy to fake earnings screenshots with a simple javascript code. That's also the reason why I don't believe the high earning claims. I would better buy a WSO from a person that makes steady 20$ a day for $50 than from a person who claims to make $2000 a day and sell the WSO for $7. Bear this in mind, future WSO sellers
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  • Profile picture of the author rvrabel2002
    I think the truth is, no matter how many systems are sold, 80% of people that buy them will simply not follow through with them, probably more....Internet Marketing products are like weight loss products, everyone wants to get rich without putting in the work....It's the 5% of people that go through with it for a long time that succeed....Now back to work
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  • Profile picture of the author War_Guy
    FYI, When "Bill Gates created the MS-DOS operating system" he used the same system that is in use still today!

    He TOOK Gary Kildall's (operating) system (CP/M) and re-wrote it. Just like today, most of the Internet Marketing systems available are just re-written from someone else's work.

    Poor Gary Kildall.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDawson
    Banned
    The thing that really gets me is the fake testimonials, I don't know about you guys, but when I make a new E-book I like to get honest testimonials for the page.
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  • Profile picture of the author hmigroupllc
    Part of the mindset, it seems to me, is that people love to blame someone else for their failure. Thus, there are tons of people calling everything a scam.

    The honest marketers tell you they made however many thousands, and they did.
    They also tell you that it isn't typical, and it all depends on your commitment and effort -- and it does.
    So I don't really see anything wrong there. You make a choice to use the system and attempt to achieve your financial goals, or whatever goal a system is designed or used to achieve.

    If you don't put in the effort, or you don't follow the system exactly, your results will vary dramatically. To me, that's a no-brainer.

    Additionally, scammers exist in significant numbers online and offline. To pretend that anything about scamming is unique to the internet is just plain wrong. I don't think Bernie Madoff used the internet to make his sales pitch (I could be wrong).

    I approach shopping anywhere for anything just like going into a bar. Put a few drinks in someone, and they will tell you ANYTHING! I, as a consumer have a personal responsibility to be sure of what I'm buying, and when I buy a product --- to then use it as is recommended by the creator.

    So, yes, maybe I'm a little blunt, but high earning claims from legitimate sellers are welcome by me. I accept that I'll have to work to achieve the same. What I don't get is why anyone would expect less?

    Happy New Year

    Wayne Sharer
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  • Originally Posted by Louise Evans View Post

    Q: "If they really make money, why do they sell their secret system?"
    What most people dont realize is that most of the "gurus" sell their systems once the profit curve of such system has peaked and begins to wind down for them. I know this first hand (a well known "guru" told me). They exploit the bejesus out of something, and once they feel that "something" is losing momentum they simply package it as a product and sell it to the Make Money Online niche.

    Think PPC to CPA/Clickbank courses... I will not point my finger to anyone, but I DO know that some of the stuff being taught in some of those courses are only taught once they've squeezed most of the juice out of it and the market begins to catch up. ONLY then they open the can to the masses in order to monetize off it one last time. Again, they're selling their "secrets" ONLY once those secrets are beginning to lose their marvelous shine.

    If you had the goose of the golden eggs... would you bring competitors into your Arena, or would you keep it quiet while making 5 figures per day off it?

    Some people need to open their eyes and to realize that the Make Money Online niche is the new Wild West...
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    • Profile picture of the author LetsGoViral
      Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

      What most people dont realize is that most of the "gurus" sell their systems once the profit curve of such system has peaked and begins to wind down for them. I know this first hand (a well known "guru" told me). They exploit the bejesus out of something, and once they feel that "something" is losing momentum they simply package it as a product and sell it to the Make Money Online niche.

      Think PPC to CPA/Clickbank courses... I will not point my finger to anyone, but I DO know that some of the stuff being taught in some of those courses are only taught once they've squeezed most of the juice out of it and the market begins to catch up. ONLY then they open the can to the masses in order to monetize off it one last time. Again, they're selling their "secrets" ONLY once those secrets are beginning to lose their marvelous shine.

      If you had the goose of the golden eggs... would you bring competitors into your Arena, or would you keep it quiet while making 5 figures per day off it?

      Some people need to open their eyes and to realize that the Make Money Online niche is the new Wild West...
      Not only that but most gurus never apply their "systems" because they see that they will make much more money by teaching other people how to use the "secret system" so why bother trying? It's not like they can guarantee that the system works. There is no guarantee for these things.
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    Hmmm.

    This thread seems to be getting out of hand.

    Louise made some valid points and it is not fair to lump everyone together as being a scammer However I offered a different perspective just because I was ripped when I first started and income proof was used in the pursuasion. I know many others in this forum also have had that experience. However.

    If someone feels they honestly can pursuade people by proving their system works that is their perogative and as long as it is real and true there is nothing that can be said about it.

    If for instance Big Mike came out with an offer that said I made xxxxx dollars in 2 days I would believe him. If he said anyone can do it I would not. see each person has different motivation each person has different understanding about what work is and that is just to start. systems work if you work them I follow a system but it is my own system . The fact is there are bad apples on every tree and even though it does not look good and they are inedible the good ones don't get spoiled because they are on the same branch this is what Louise is pointing out.

    Originally Posted by JK Nyerere
    I market my own products and JV with plenty of people with sizeable lists. In personally knowing these people over the years and the claims they make on their websites, it is quite clear they are lying.

    You just ruined any credibility you may have ever had on here thanks for showing the colors of your self. maybe you should think before you speak that is just ridiculous.
    -WD
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      The problem with income claims, at least in the MMO niche, is that you only
      see one side of the equation.

      You see...

      "Discover How I Banked $2,183,945.82 In 2009"

      What you don't see is...

      "I had $2,000,000.00 in expenses."

      When people starting out see these figures (the one side) they think they
      can make that kind of money on a shoestring budget...even after buying
      the MMO product because nowhere in that product is there any kind of
      disclaimer..."Oh, by the way, if you want to make this kind of money
      you're going to have to spend $300 per day on pay per click."

      Not picking on anybody in particular. Just pointing out a fact about this
      industry.

      Full disclosure is not part of the equation.
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      • Profile picture of the author wolverine1971
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        The problem with income claims, at least in the MMO niche, is that you only
        see one side of the equation.

        You see...

        "Discover How I Banked $2,183,945.82 In 2009"

        What you don't see is...

        "I had $2,000,000.00 in expenses."

        When people starting out see these figures (the one side) they think they
        can make that kind of money on a shoestring budget...even after buying
        the MMO product because nowhere in that product is there any kind of
        disclaimer..."Oh, by the way, if you want to make this kind of money
        you're going to have to spend $300 per day on pay per click."

        Not picking on anybody in particular. Just pointing out a fact about this
        industry.

        Full disclosure is not part of the equation.
        That's a good point - a Clickbank shot with daily earnings may look impressive but it could be negative earnings or a total wash using Adsense or some other PPC. I don't trust earnings screenshots. I think they prey on the emotions of people looking to make money fast without disclosing to them that it is a ton of work to really make money.
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    • Profile picture of the author JK Nyerere
      Originally Posted by WD Mino View Post

      Hmmm.

      You just ruined any credibility you may have ever had on here thanks for showing the colors of your self. maybe you should think before you speak that is just ridiculous.
      -WD
      LOL.

      Do I sound like somebody who needs validation from you?

      If your "business model" depends on or can be affected by anonymous posts on a MMO forum, then you really do not have a business at all. You just think you do.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by JK Nyerere View Post

        Do I sound like somebody who needs validation from you?
        No, to be honest, you sound like someone who needs a good swift kick in the arse.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          No, to be honest, you sound like someone who needs a good swift kick in the arse.
          LOL, LMAO, LMFAO, LM...Oh, never mind.

          Happy New Year peeps.
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        • Profile picture of the author JK Nyerere
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          No, to be honest, you sound like someone who needs a good swift kick in the arse.
          From your picture, you look like a really mean meth addict I once knew, so I have no doubt you could "kick my butt" if you wanted too.

          However that does not change anything in regards to false income claims. It also will not make you an extra dime.

          If you are selling legitimate products without falsifying your income claims, I have no idea why you and your fan club would enjoy violence against me. But hey, we have all been brought up differently.

          Note that I am not advocating or condoning the use of false income claims, I am just stating of what is ACTUALLY happening in the MMO market and the businesss "model" I listed is how it mainly works.

          Whether you kick my ass or not will not change anything.
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    ^ well said Steven
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    ^My Father always told me better to have people think your a fool then open your mouth and prove them right. I guess he knew what he was talking about.

    :p
    -WD
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  • Profile picture of the author bravo75
    Hmm, scamming newbies with fake screenshots, good business model there. Thank god for the WF where knobheads like that last about 2 minutes.
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  • Profile picture of the author AmyBrown
    I've not seen anyone take advantage of Brian Kindsvater's verification service. It seems a viable way to authenticate earnings for those wishing to make credible income claims.

    Thoughts?
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  • Profile picture of the author lisag
    No need to verify claims when you get a SPAMaGRAM that ends like this guy's does. How can you NOT trust him?

    "Hello My Dear Friends,

    This is a must join program for you ALL to join now
    without any delays - All will make money with it - not
    just some but ALL.


    Go Here Quick Join & Pay the onetime fee quick
    and just wait to make money over and over again
    non-stop ... This is no joke and no lie---
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    OMG hahahhahaa what a dork

    Hmmm stops and thinks..... you know some people will actually get sucked in to that wish that kind of stuff would just go back to hell where it belongs.
    -WD
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    • Profile picture of the author robert key
      Hi Louise,

      You posted:

      Q: "If they really make money, why do they sell their secret system?"

      A: Business is business. The aim of any business is to grow. If selling the system makes just a 5% or 10% increase of revenue, it's worth doing - (as long as you don't give away your niches in the process).

      I always wonder why someone on the forum is claiming to make 'x' amount of hundreds or thousands per day with their secret system but yet their willing to sell it as a WSO for $47... :confused:

      Business is business.

      We're in the market (online or offline) to make money and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that it's not as easy as 1-2-3 to make money in this market.

      Sometimes logic makes the most sense. Think about it - Google earns Billions in "profit" per quarter. Is it worth it to Google to sell their search engine system or "secrets" just to earn a 5% or 10% increase of revenue? I don't think so.

      Don't expect to see Google or Apple selling their system that's responsible for Billions in profits anytime soon, especially as a WSO.

      Just my 2c...

      Robert
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      • Profile picture of the author Louise Green
        Originally Posted by keyz View Post

        Is it worth it to Google to sell their search engine system or "secrets" just to earn a 5% or 10% increase of revenue? I don't think so.
        That's right Robert, and we wouldn't create fresh competition (when people ask which niches I operate in, I shake my head). In my experience there's a correct way to start an online business, sharing it with others doesn't damage our set up. Now, if we showed them how to enter specific niches that we operate in, yes, then you're risking your business.

        Teaching someone how to start an online business is just showing them how to start a business. I don't fear other businesses.
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      • Profile picture of the author Cackle
        Originally Posted by keyz View Post

        Don't expect to see Google or Apple selling their system that's responsible for Billions in profits anytime soon, especially as a WSO.

        Just my 2c...

        Robert
        actually, I just read somewhere that Google was putting out an ebook on how to start your own search engine. It gives all their secrets away, algorithm and everything. .
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        • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
          Originally Posted by Cackle View Post

          actually, I just read somewhere that Google was putting out an ebook on how to start your own search engine. It gives all their secrets away, algorithm and everything. .
          Yeah, I read that too, but who can afford the 100 billion dollar cover price?
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      • Profile picture of the author boaterscott
        I was reading a thread the other day about a guy who said it had made $60,000 in a month. hundreds responded. The guy who started the thread made it a point to mention that he had nothing to sell, he even said that in his sig (I was just waiting and waiting for him to make an offer). Sure enough, after about 100 repsonses, he said he could squeeze a few folks into busy schedule for coaching.

        He furnished no proof, he would just add little bits of info about what he did -people ate it up. He added "scarcity" to the mix and people went crazy to find out more and more.

        Was he for real? Perhaps, but it sure seemed fishy...
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      • Profile picture of the author Silas Hart
        It's funny, people could chime in and tell you to change your mindset (which annoys me) or how they make so much money doing this or that, or how they were very successful in article marketing or whatever. Wait until a thread discussing incorporating your business, or taxes, how to get a checking account for their business, or what a DBA or LLC is. Look at how few replies those get. Once youve done those things, they are extremely easy answers. If you've never done or had any experience with those things, which are a sign of actual high earnings and wealth, then those things could seem confusing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    example

    I have my own coaching course what we teach in there is exactly what i'm doing now to make money, everytime i come up with a new piece of software or strategy the coaching clients get that startegy as i am using it

    The price is $2k

    1 person in a hundred ever does anything with the information

    Not much risk of over saturation on those statistics

    I make money with the system without much competetion, and i make money by selling people the system.

    selling your best stuff is profitable, and comes with very little risk of over saturation

    Robert

    PS: agreed though you wont get the cutting edge stuff for $97
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Ellis
    I understand what you're saying in your answers, but I think you're leaving a lot out...

    And, call me stupid, but I'm not sure what you're really trying to say besides 'you have to believe you can build a successful business before attempting to go into a business'. This level of believe in any individual has very little to do with the questions you present.

    As for your first question (If they really make money, why do they sell their secret system?), your answer is valid for some instances, though I agree your example with Microsoft is a bit of a stretch. However, just because the answer fits for some instances doesn't mean the question shouldn't be asked.

    How many times have we seen people post very basic IM questions yet have links that claim to show you how to make $200 or $500 or $1000 a day? These folks don't really make any money, and their secret system (the $1000 a day B.S. their peddling) is the only thing that is making them money.

    Or...

    If you've been in the IM business for any length of time you probably have experience with (or know someone that has experience with) making a large sum of money on a daily basis, but they also pay out a large sum of money in promotional costs. What happens next? They gather screenshots and create promos stating how much cash they rake in on a daily basis. It's pure B.S.

    As for your second question (are all screenshots faked?), I just don't see how your answer is related to this at all. Yes, there are a lot of people doing business online, and more will come for sure, but what does that tell me about fake screenshots?

    For the smart newbies out there (and even the veteran IM'ers), NEVER stop asking questions, and PLEASE DO, look for screenshots that look fake. Take every measure you can to make sure what you're buying is legit. There is nothing wrong with that. Realize there is a considerable amount of B.S. that's floating around out there. And if it looks too good to be true, it probably is.

    Having this point of view does not diminish your ability to run a successful business, it only diminishes your ability to be taken advantage of.
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    Awesome point Michael,

    That is it exactly either full disclosure or no disclosure there are way more fakers then real and so many people get hurt and ripped in the process.

    -WD
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Ellis
      Absolutely.... Being inquisitive isn't necessarily a bad thing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Louise Green
    But assuming that everyone who builds a successful business is either a liar or a scammer is a very bad thing in my book.. and those who make those assumptions - while trying to build a business themselves - is a complete oxymoron.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Ellis
      That's very true Louise. However, from a potential buyer's point of view, you don't know who is really successful or not. Sure, you can take everyone for their word, but that will quickly empty your bank account.

      FYI - I get tons of email every day from very successful companies in Nigeria that would like me to invest in them.
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  • Profile picture of the author JackPowers
    How about before you buy, you apply some of the free stuff that person is teaching. Like, there's many people on here that I read very carefully when they post because I have taken their advice and it has worked. I certainly wouldn't care about screenshots if they were selling.
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  • Profile picture of the author KathleenHobbins
    Jack, That's a great point.

    My, my, what an interesting thread this has turned out to be. Notwithstanding some intervening New Year's Day fireworks that showed up here, I'm going to make my humble observation to Louise's post anyway.

    It's good business sense to be skeptical. Whether you "build" a business or "put together" a business, you need to be able to assess whether a course of action is prudent and will be profitable or not. And part of the assessment requires you to ask questions.

    I'm not sure that merely asking why someone is selling his or her (frankly, usually his) "high-profit secrets" is an insinuation into their motives or their integrity. It could legitimately be one of a series of questions, like "is that gross or net," that a reasonably cautious person asks before making a business decision.

    If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is. If someone makes you an offer that sounds too good to be true, you should definitely question it. It's only good business.

    Oh, and if someone makes a comment that you question, you can question it without being rude. That's only good manners.
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    ^ See that is what I mean. The fact is I don't care if you showed me a hundred screen shots of a million dollars each. there is nothing to prove I am going to make that. there is nothing to show the exact methods used i.e. I spent 900,99 thousand to get the one million but I got 1 million I mean that is a huge example of WHY it is not good business practice. Most of the people that get sucked into these things are new comers to the marketplace. that is both disgusting and moronic.

    To take things like that and target people who don't know any better. no one has the knowledge we do when they first start out well most no one. the fact is there are way way way too many scams out there using this tactic edited with photoshop I have caught some of them myself I cannot base any investment I make in my business on whether a screen shot of income proof is real . I mean how deep do we go here we cannot base our business on a very risky prospect to begin with nor could we ethically recommend people do that either. Here is one other thought. If a person wishes to offer proof of income. ask yourself why? does he/she not have a capability of relating the information truthfully. als why would you with so many many people scamming using this tactic wish to be associated of the bat with that doesn't it make sense to not follow the herd be unique stand out etc.

    This whole thing has different perspectives which is cool but in a business sense it does not make absolutely ANY sense at all.
    -WD
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  • Profile picture of the author lerxtjr
    Just starting to get involved in this forum (long-time sitepoint participant), so hello everyone, and happy new year.

    Fitting that this is one of the first posts I'm replying to because it's a near and dear topic to my heart...

    From a product producer's standpoint, why do people make info products to share their secrets? To make easy money of course. Not only can you make one product creation effort over a weekend or something, but you can customize it for multiple niches and re-sell it over and over again.

    Is that considered inhumane? To want to make money? I sure don't think so. We have to get over this thing people have against "selling" or "making money" on things.

    From a contribution to society perspective, if I know how to do something and have created a process that really does work for people over and over again, isn't it my obligation to society to share it with others? There are many people out there that do just that. They're just givers and love to share what they've learned and get a few bucks for it in return.

    Another reason people (and I'll add my name to the list) make info products and sell them is because they're great lead generators. Once people find out how things really do work, and discover there really is work involved in Internet marketing processes, they realize the value of hiring someone to do it for them.

    On the other side of the coin as a buyer, I spend somewhere around $20K a year attending seminars and buying Internet marketing how-to products. Do I have any intention that I'm going to get an overnight return of millions like the author? Of course not. But, if I can get 10 or 15 steps of something to try on my own, I've learned how to do something a different way. And, that is worth the investment.

    Label every Internet marketing book, cd, seminar, workshop, tool or member site as a scam if you must, but the biggest key I've discovered to improving my own skill is to buy others' products and try them out for myself.
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    Hi Lerxtjr Welcome to the forum
    But with all due respect
    what does creating a product have to do with income proof? and basing your business on not being skeptical?

    No one labeled anyone or thing a scam we are putting into perspective the things that do and will continue to happen and the end result is people are hurt.

    I am a product creator run sites etc but what does that have to do with anything. Nice plug for yourself but you left me wondering what the blazes are you talking about.

    -WD
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  • Profile picture of the author lerxtjr
    As for your first question (If they really make money, why do they sell their secret system?), your answer is valid for some instances, though I agree your example with Microsoft is a bit of a stretch. However, just because the answer fits for some instances doesn't mean the question shouldn't be asked.

    How many times have we seen people post very basic IM questions yet have links that claim to show you how to make $200 or $500 or $1000 a day? These folks don't really make any money, and their secret system (the $1000 a day B.S. their peddling) is the only thing that is making them money.

    Or...

    If you've been in the IM business for any length of time you probably have experience with (or know someone that has experience with) making a large sum of money on a daily basis, but they also pay out a large sum of money in promotional costs. What happens next? They gather screenshots and create promos stating how much cash they rake in on a daily basis. It's pure B.S.

    As for your second question (are all screenshots faked?), I just don't see how your answer is related to this at all. Yes, there are a lot of people doing business online, and more will come for sure, but what does that tell me about fake screenshots?
    Sorry, WD, forgot to add the quote that I was replying to. That should help.

    I guess I should clarify too that of course there is a lot of crap out there but suggesting we should spend time trying to figure out whether screenshots are fake or not misses the point I believe.

    Whether someone did accomplish a gazillion dollars over night is immaterial to the content inside the product when it comes to you and me implementing the same exact steps. And, anyone buying into a "system" should approach that instruction for their own "testing" without having the thought that they're going to make a gazillion overnight too.
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    • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
      Hi Thanks for clarifying,

      Ok so The problem is the system is represented as being replicable and that "anyone can do it' not so. full disclosure or no disclosure is what would be ideal not gonna happen but ideally that would be good.

      People are in need of things to be layed out for them to follow now if it doesn't work because they did not take any action or put any effort out that is one thing but if the person selling said system is using the I made xxxx amount and you can too that is their hook. the hook that needs to be clarified or else a lot of folks will be taken in and left feeling used and misled which in turn produces anger.

      As a businessman I make it my aim and goal to present facts and solutions to the problems of the customer. I am not doing that properly by making them think they can achieve the same success.

      I mean if it took 5 yrs to make the cash. then that needs to be said. but it isn't. we all have disclaimers myself included to cover my behind I am saying it does not make sense not to be skeptical and test things before purchasing or investing because once done it is over I am more concerned with my name then my cash flow.

      -WD

      Originally Posted by lerxtjr View Post

      Sorry, WD, forgot to add the quote that I was replying to. That should help.

      I guess I should clarify too that of course there is a lot of crap out there but suggesting we should spend time trying to figure out whether screenshots are fake or not misses the point I believe.

      Whether someone did accomplish a gazillion dollars over night is immaterial to the content inside the product when it comes to you and me implementing the same exact steps. And, anyone buying into a "system" should approach that instruction for their own "testing" without having the thought that they're going to make a gazillion overnight too.
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  • Profile picture of the author Cass Tyson
    Lots of great perspectives here. Fireworks too. Oh, wait, no, that's outside my window...no, no, it's here, isn't it! Wow...

    Selling MMO is 99% selling the dream. So is MLM. So is franchising. So is any "make money" or "business in a box" system. It doesn't really matter the "product" being hawked because the underlying concept, the REAL product, is the same: follow this system (buy this magic bullet) and you too -- Yes YOU! -- can live a life of luxury/4 hour workweek/replace yourself/fast cars/big houses/sleep late/fill-in-the-blank.

    I submit to you all that 99% of the people here at WF are drinking the same cool-aid. Maybe 100%. Really, isn't that why YOU'RE here?

    Income claims are standard in any "business in a box" scenario. In the MMO world, this wild wild wild west we're in, it's just super easy to show screenshots or write scripts that make the dream seem real. It's right there in front of you. You can see it! You can feel it! You know you want it too.

    The people actually making bank selling MMO are those who realize this, and unabashedly pour the cool-aid SO many people are thirsting for. Yesterday's cool-aid in most cases. In shot glasses that don't fully quench anyone's thirst. And knowing full well that, as was stated above, only 1 in 100 will even try to fully implement what they've bought. It has NO chance of hurting their business, and EVERY chance of improving it.

    "Well, I didn't make the same $100,000 a month, but hey, it was only $7/$27/$97, and it was full of good tips, so...why ask for a refund. Probably my fault anyway, I should've tried harder..."

    The bottom line to me is this: Any successful business, online or off, whatever the market, whatever the product, requires a willingness to work hard -- and put sweet tasting cool-aid in front of thirsty people with money.

    To really knock it out of the park, you gotta be unique. If you buy that new shiny ball, how can you spin it to make it your own? (pls to excuse the metaphor shift. not thirsty any more!) That's the real challenge.

    Income claims are just vaporware. Caveat Emptor ALWAYS applies.
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  • Profile picture of the author Joe808
    I'm not entirely sure why anyone ever believes testimonials. They are so easily faked and they don't even sound legitimate. Like: "I think your system is really terrific". Who says that? especially the word "terrific" lol.
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    • Profile picture of the author Karomesis
      Originally Posted by Joe808 View Post

      I'm not entirely sure why anyone ever believes testimonials. They are so easily faked and they don't even sound legitimate. Like: "I think your system is really terrific". Who says that? especially the word "terrific" lol.
      Actually I've been known to indulge in talking like Leave it to Beaver on occasion...Golly gee, I thought that MMO testimonial was swell.

      The TRUTH is there is serious money to be made online and off, it's not a secret, it's called...... INNOVATION!!!!! i.e not copying every other tired, worn out way of doing things. Even the Masters of bull$h!T like the MMO "gurus" have to somehow differentiate their BS from other blood sucking vampires like themselves.

      I come from the sales world where your word is EVERYTHING. If I told a prospective customer even the tiniest white lie, I'd be screwed. They buy from me because they trust/like me in some way or another, online MMO charlatans might not neccessarily "fake" screenshots, but they don't disclose as many on this thread have said, the cost of obtaining those revenues. I think it would be interesting if one of them made a huge error and said "profits" instead of "made" and they got their asses sued off for false advertising.

      Call me a rogue, but I actually want to change peoples lives with my business.
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      Coming soon....FULL SCALE AUTOMATION.
      "Set it...Forget it" site building and SEO software.

      any ? please hit me up anytime karomesis12@gmail.com

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  • Profile picture of the author Slin
    I kind of agree with what others are saying, I mean just because it worked for you, doesn't mean a system will always work.

    (I.E. if I had the algorithm for google and everything, I would not be able to make a profit)

    But I must say that every single book I have bought on marketing has been great, I don't really understand why everyone bashes these "make millions of dollars!" ebooks, I have not made millions of dollars, but these ideas are leading me to them.

    It just takes a lot of work and time, yet these books sure help.
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    • Profile picture of the author KathleenHobbins
      Originally Posted by Slin View Post

      I kind of agree with what others are saying, I mean just because it worked for you, doesn't mean a system will always work.

      (I.E. if I had the algorithm for google and everything, I would not be able to make a profit)

      But I must say that every single book I have bought on marketing has been great, I don't really understand why everyone bashes these "make millions of dollars!" ebooks, I have not made millions of dollars, but these ideas are leading me to them.

      It just takes a lot of work and time, yet these books sure help.

      Me, too. I have learned a tremendous amount even though I haven't yet made the money I would like to make. It's hard for me to call any of them "scams" even though they didn't work for me. I still got a lot of value.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Huggins Sr.
    Im new, very new, so new I havent even tried a system for im yet...
    Still deciding which one to try. But Just from common sense and life experiences (which include owning brick and mortar small buisiness,,, [very small],,lol, I really like what Cassman posted.
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  • Profile picture of the author Free-Spirit
    Banned
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    • Profile picture of the author ericwt
      Fascinating thread.

      Ironically I think I got a few ideas that could make me a lot of money from this thread.

      Meh, to bad MMO is not one of my niches.

      Interesting thing, I know a guru who was nothing about one year ago. Then by a sheer fluke he made a ton of money on an ebook.

      By fluke, I mean, it just does not happen much ,to have someone write an ebook for the first time and make a huge amount of money. And I mean huge.

      Well he did.

      Now he sells his system. I bought it becase I knew about what happened and I wanted to see if it was a b.s. and call him on it, if it was.

      There was good basic information for new people and it would work if someone actually followed the lessons and took action.

      But you look at the ad and his earning claims make it look like a scam.

      He is a good guy with talent. But I imagine he is going to be shut down by the FTC or some other organization.

      Someone will whine, even though they did not follow the steps and take action. Within 6 months from now, him and his product will be history.

      He is doing it to himself and does not see what is about to happen. I even tried to warn him.

      People buy my products for the information and the entertainment. I do not have to worry becase I make no claims and offer a 3 month return policy that is clearly stated.

      I am glad I do not sell MMO products.
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      I am not here to sell anyone, anything.I am here to learn and to help others.
      That is all.
      Detach from outcomes and you own the world.

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