I Can Predict Refunds

16 years ago

Why not filter the names and IPs of the refunders? And then, the next time they visit your other sites then they are not allowed to buy or just redirect them to a page saying "Damn, I can't refund because I can't Order!".

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Tirmizi 16 years ago

hahahaha ! well you can't pridict it yourself that who will buy or who won't , its an open market, like not all the fingers in your hand are same .. so not every client is the same ... yeah geographically buying and selling trends change.

But you'll never know someone from a place you never thought was good enough could come in and become a real loyal customer.
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trafficwave

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Sad as it is, I can predict refunds. All I have to do is look at the name on
the sale and the country it's from and I can, 9 out of 10 times, predict that
the sale will be refunded.

I feel your pain, Steven.

And I bet I could guess which country, too.

In the case of stolen cards, there seems to be one or two countries that show up a LOT. We monitor these VERY closely on our system.

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lakshaybehl

16 years ago

So what are these countries?? I hope not India...

.

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TedMarlett

16 years ago

Hi Steven,

When I get ready to start advertising and selling something I believe that the countries PayPal does not let use their service may be some of the countries involved, and I will be watching them.

I don't know yet if the other services that accept payments online are following along the same criteria as PayPal, but it does seem that similar countries are not yet to be trusted.

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sparrow

16 years ago

Its the price of doing business

If you really want to rant you should look into the file sharing sites that are passing out our products free, espeically the WSO's.

These are the refunders we need to nail down. This is a real problem.

Real refunds for me are a part of doing business, in fact many of the people in the long run have become loyal customers.

Ed

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Angela V. Edwards

16 years ago

Originally Posted by sparrow

Its the price of doing business

If you really want to rant you should look into the file sharing sites that are passing out our products free, espeically the WSO's.

These are the refunders we need to nail down. This is a real problem.

Real refunds for me are a part of doing business, in fact many of the people in the long run have become loyal customers.

Ed

I completely agree with this. THESE are the types of refunds that really get my ire up.

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Ryan_Taylor 16 years ago

Unfortunately, that's just the cost of using CB. It's sad, but you have to build returns into your expected revenues when you use them. Returns are inevitable.

That being said, I have never had a return request with my products that are sold via PayPal. The RAP offer is very tempting.
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e-mail2u

16 years ago

Steve,

My theory is they buy just for the refund, they get a free product in the end. This may be a stupid idea but can you not report a non returned item through your payment processor. If enough people are reporting the same people for non return of the product they might get banned from using that payment processor.

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bethparker

16 years ago

e-mail2u, you can't exactly "return" a downloaded product.

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e-mail2u

16 years ago

Beth,

I know you cannot return a digital product, so do the refund buyers. That's why they do it. The reporting them is just for principle.

One person may make a difference, many people will make a difference. Why let them get away with it, if it happened to you would you let them get away with it... NO

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Steven Wagenheim

16 years ago

Want a good laugh?

Another sale came in, same product at 4:50 PM today. I looked at the name
and said to myself, "Great, another refund on the way."

At 5:03 PM, I received an email from the person.

"This is not what I expected. I want a refund."

It's a 10 ebook package that takes 5 to 7 minutes to download at least.

He couldn't have possibly looked at it.

Well, he's going to have to write to Clickbank for his refund because I'm not
making this easy for him.

I've had it with these crooks and this is why I am done submitting anymore
products to the Clickbank marketplace for the make money online niche.

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Jose Delgado 16 years ago

Steven that sucks. lol

Which countries are they?

.
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- Steven Wagenheim 16 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by tigres409
  
  Steven that sucks. lol
  
  Which countries are they?
  
  .
  
  I'd rather not say because I don't want people to think that I am prejudice
  because I am not. I am a very giving person to all nationalities. I don't care
  if you come from Mars. But I can't help but notice that there is rampant
  fraud among some countries, which is why Clickbank won't accept affiliates
  from those countries.
  
  Now I understand why.
  
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Ryan Gabriel

16 years ago

I had my first refund request the other day.

The person bought every single product I offered, even products that overlapped with each other, ie-> He buys my article pack, review site and the package that has both of them bundled together. For every single product I offer. WTF?

Then this person asks for a refund. Well, I can tell you it's going to be a very difficult process for this person. I'll refund it, because that's what I promise, but it will not be easy. (A legitimate refund request would be treated completely differently, obviously).

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trafficwave

16 years ago

So ... do we think these people are just out to get something for free?

Or are they spying so they can reverse-engineer / "steal" your content and recreate it for their own profit?

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Jeannie Crabtree

16 years ago

Brian, I don't think most refunders outside the IM niche are looking to reverse engineer.

I sell an ebook that many computer savy young people want, in the self improvement nice. I get about a 5% refund request. Most of those I would say just want the ebook free and know they can get the refund and keep the ebook and bonuses.

Jeannie

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trafficwave

16 years ago

This question is for everyone/anyone that wants to answer:

What are the most common reasons given for a refund request?

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Jason Moffatt

16 years ago

I wonder how often you induce the refund by just having a negative outlook
on it from the beginning?

You know, "The Secret" and "Law Of Attraction" type of stuff.

Instead of injecting a racist mind set, I'd encourage you to be a bit more open about the possibility it's a legit and honest customer.

9 times out of 10 huh?

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Steven Fullman

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt

I wonder how often you induce the refund by just having a negative outlook
on it from the beginning?

You know, "The Secret" and "Law Of Attraction" type of stuff.

Instead of injecting a racist mind set, I'd encourage you to be a bit more open about the possibility it's a legit and honest customer.

9 times out of 10 huh?

J-Mo,

I'm absolutely certain Steve is no racist, dude.

I'm also 100% sure he knows his stats.

Having said that, 9/10 seems a little high. If that many people in those nations are so dishonest, the prison food much be freakin' delicious.

Steve

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Jason Moffatt

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Fullman

J-Mo,

I'm absolutely certain Steve is no racist, dude.

I'm also 100% sure he knows his stats.

Having said that, 9/10 seems a little high. If that many people in those nations are so dishonest, the prison food much be freakin' delicious.

Steve

I didn't mean to insinuate that Steve was a racist.

But making a blanket statement like this is no doubt a racist viewpoint. I admit, it's nearly inevitable in most circumstances, especially when the number back up your frustration.

How many of you can say you aren't racist towards Nigerian vendors? Seriously! Almost none of us.

However, I'm still saying that I think you can induce more refunds into your life by saying... "Ah shit, another order from India. I bet Lalita Lakshmi refunds".

If you say that before it even happens, you might just get what you ask for. That's all I'm saying.

Words and belief can be powerful.

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Steven Wagenheim

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt

Words and belief can be powerful.

Jason, I actually used to feel that way. As a matter of fact, one person I
met online actually turned me on to the power of positive thinking and the
secret and all that stuff.

This same person ultimately ended up taking me for $2,500.

I try to always look for the good in people, but thinking that bad doesn't
exist is, in my opinion, looking for trouble. Truth is, if I can find a way to
block sales to these places, I would. But I just don't know how, especially
not with a Clickbank hosted product.

And yes, the stats are accurate. I find it mind boggling that things can be
this bad. I am actually shocked when I see stuff like this because I do try
to believe that most people are honest. And I guess considering that my
refund rate, even with all this nonsense, is about 8%, that's not too bad.

It is, as you said, frustrating. And I guess I'm really just venting a little
because when it happens with almost every sale from these places you
almost dread looking to see where your sales are coming from.

Anyway, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it because I've made 20 sales
today that I am quite sure won't be refunded.

And I guess in the grand scheme of things, that's all that really matters.

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Michael Stuart Kelly

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

As a matter of fact, one person I met online actually turned me on to the power of positive thinking and the secret and all that stuff.

This same person ultimately ended up taking me for $2,500.

Steve,

I feel your pain, but damn, that was funny!

Attraction is cool, but they sure haven't got the kinks worked out in the quality control department for a related area: preaching attraction.

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Anyway, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it because I've made 20 sales today that I am quite sure won't be refunded.

And I guess in the grand scheme of things, that's all that really matters.

Amen, bro.

What other field gives you so much for so little?

The Internet reminds me of nature and farming. You throw out some tiny seeds. You eventually get weeds and bugs, but you also get an awful lot of green stuff.

Michael

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Paul Myers 16 years ago

Steven,

I don't find India to be any more or less likely than the US or Kanuckistan to be a source of refunds.

Why do I say they're young? Lots of clues. A fair number of interactions with the more obnoxious ones. Do this stuff long enough and you can see patterns.

Paul
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- John Ritz 16 years ago
  
  I have the reverse problem, actually. Not that I don't get refund requests, but I don't get very many. Which means I am probably not pushing the sale hard enough, because for every additional 1% in refunds, you'll usually get 2 to 3 times that many in sales.
  
  7% to 12% seems to be the ideal sweet spot, but I'm lower than that.
  
  Ah well, less hassle for me, I guess.
  
  Cheers,
  
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Steven Wagenheim

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt

I wonder how often you induce the refund by just having a negative outlook
on it from the beginning?

You know, "The Secret" and "Law Of Attraction" type of stuff.

Instead of injecting a racist mind set, I'd encourage you to be a bit more open about the possibility it's a legit and honest customer.

9 times out of 10 huh?

Jason, whatever else you might think of me, I hope you know that I'm a
straight shooter and an honest person.

I seriously doubt that when I see these names and countries pop up in
my Clickbank notifications that the person on the other end senses my
negative vibes and says to himself, "He thinks I'm going to ask for a refund
so I better do it." While I believe in being positive, I am also a realist.
And I didn't start even thinking about these things until one day I went
through my refunds and noticed that 90% of all my refunds come from
these places.

Coincidence? Highly unlikely I would think.

And don't get me wrong. I accept this as part of doing business. I'm not
going to lose any sleep over it and I'm certainly not going to let them
get to me, but my point of this whole post was simply to point out that
there will be sales coming from certain places that are more likely to
result in refunds than others.

If this weren't the case, Clickbank wouldn't ban these countries from
selling their products.

And I seriously doubt Clickbank has a negative mindset with all the money
they're raking in.

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Frank Donovan

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Sad as it is, I can predict refunds. All I have to do is look at the name on
the sale and the country it's from and I can, 9 out of 10 times, predict that
the sale will be refunded.

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

I seriously doubt that when I see these names and countries pop up in
my Clickbank notifications that the person on the other end senses my
negative vibes and says to himself, "He thinks I'm going to ask for a refund
so I better do it." While I believe in being positive, I am also a realist.
And I didn't start even thinking about these things until one day I went
through my refunds and noticed that 90% of all my refunds come from
these places.

These two statistics aren't necessarily the same. In the OP, the implication is that 9 out of 10 PURCHASES from certain countries result in a refund request, whereas in the second post, it's 90% of all REFUNDS which emanate from these places.

You might want to clarify, just so people don't get the wrong end of the stick...

Frank

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Steven Fullman

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

These two statistics aren't necessarily the same. In the OP, the implication is that 9 out of 10 PURCHASES from certain countries result in a refund request, whereas in the second post, it's 90% of all REFUNDS which emanate from these places.

You might want to clarify, just so people don't get the wrong end of the stick...

Frank

Frank, you beat me to it. I had exactly the same thought going on...

I'd buy you a beer if I could!

Steve

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Steven Wagenheim

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

These two statistics aren't necessarily the same. In the OP, the implication is that 9 out of 10 PURCHASES from certain countries result in a refund request, whereas in the second post, it's 90% of all REFUNDS which emanate from these places.

You might want to clarify, just so people don't get the wrong end of the stick...

Frank

Frank, it's both.

When I get a sale from one of these countries, 9 out of 10 times that I do,
the sale ends up in a refund. Yes, occasionally the sale sticks.

Also, if I look at all the refunds that I get from all my Clickbank accounts,
90% of my 8% refund rate comes from these countries. I almost never
get a refund from somebody in the US or England or Canada.

Truth is, if I didn't sell to these countries, I'd hardly have any refunds at
all. That's the sad part.

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Paul Myers

16 years ago

Instead of injecting a racist mind set, I'd encourage you to be a bit more open about the possibility it's a legit and honest customer.

9 times out of 10 huh?

I think you'd have a hard time convincing anyone who knows me that I have a racist mindset, Jason, but I can tell you the worst for me. By a very large margin:

Hong Kong and Singapore. Hands down. With HK way in the lead.

Followed by parts of eastern Europe.

It's nothing like 9 out of 10, but it's so much higher for those areas than anywhere else that it's unlikely to be my imagination. One thing I've noticed about HK and SG is that the problem customers tend to be young. As in, 16 to 20, and usually using their parents' accounts.

On the flip side, the legit customers in those countries are among the most polite people you'll run into. If they need help, they ask in professional terms, and they are usually much better about giving the details necessary to fix their problems.

A mixed bag, like anything else.

Mind you, it may be very different outside of the IM field.

Paul

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KimW 16 years ago

Jason got the concepts of racist and prejudiced mixed up.
"How many of you can say you aren't racist towards Nigerian vendors? Seriously! Almost none of us."
I'm not at all.
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Steven Wagenheim

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

I think you'd have a hard time convincing anyone who knows me that I have a racist mindset, Jason, but I can tell you the worst for me. By a very large margin:

Hong Kong and Singapore. Hands down. With HK way in the lead.

Followed by parts of eastern Europe.

It's nothing like 9 out of 10, but it's so much higher for those areas than anywhere else that it's unlikely to be my imagination. One thing I've noticed about HK and SG is that the problem customers tend to be young. As in, 16 to 20, and usually using their parents' accounts.

On the flip side, the legit customers in those countries are among the most polite people you'll run into. If they need help, they ask in professional terms, and they are usually much better about giving the details necessary to fix their problems.

A mixed bag, like anything else.

Mind you, it may be very different outside of the IM field.

Paul

Paul, I'm glad you brought this up. My most polite and appreciative
customers (the ones who don't refund) come from these countries,
especially India. The people from India can teach a lot of folks here in
the states some manners.

I am no racist, believe me. At 19 I dated an African American (my mother
almost had a cow), at 21 I dated a girl from China and at 23, just before I
met my wife, I dated a girl from one of the Carribean Islands. I don't
remember which one.

I love people in general, which is part of the reason why I try to help
others as much as I can. But I also don't like being taken advantage of.

Paul, you mentioned ages. How can you tell? My Clickbank receipts don't
have ages of the customers. Do you collect additional info from these
people?

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Harvey Segal

16 years ago

You are welcome to adapt my suggestion below.

At my forum a ClickBank publisher complained about a refund
request for his fitness training product saying that the
customer had "downloaded all the material even the mp3
audios , everything , literally thousands of pages of
combined content, even pre made diets, workout charts, etc"

I advised him to send the refunder an email saying

"This is an automated message.

Warning - do NOT start the training program until you read
this CRUCIAL information.

Your health is seriously at risk if you don't and in fact we
have had a few deaths from people who failed to observe it"

Then provide a link to a non-existent page.

Harvey

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Andyhenry

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Harvey.Segal

You are welcome to adapt my suggestion below.

At my forum a ClickBank publisher complained about a refund
request for his fitness training product saying that the
customer had "downloaded all the material even the mp3
audios , everything , literally thousands of pages of
combined content, even pre made diets, workout charts, etc"

I advised him to send the refunder an email saying

"This is an automated message.

Warning - do NOT start the training program until you read
this CRUCIAL information.

Your health is seriously at risk if you don't and in fact we
have had a few deaths from people who failed to observe it"

Then provide a link to a non-existent page.

Harvey

Harsh but effective...

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Junkee 16 years ago

If the product is legit and proven then "Harsh" is OK if it's tageted at scam buyers. I'm not selling the types of products you guys are creating but the same exact type B.S. goes on in retail and second hand merchandise sales constantly. I built my auction site store with a good reputation and I'm the "SOLD AS IS" man. Hasn't hurt me a bit to be Harsh as long as it's only with people I know that are "Scammers". I still do steady sales.
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mario_a

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

My most polite and appreciative
customers (the ones who don't refund) come from these countries,
especially India. The people from India can teach a lot of folks here in
the states some manners.

Thanks Steven. Your words make me feel proud to be an Indian

Regards,
Mario

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Steven Fullman

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

I think you'd have a hard time convincing anyone who knows me that I have a racist mindset, Jason, but I can tell you the worst for me. By a very large margin:

Hong Kong and Singapore. Hands down. With HK way in the lead.

Followed by parts of eastern Europe.

It's nothing like 9 out of 10, but it's so much higher for those areas than anywhere else that it's unlikely to be my imagination. One thing I've noticed about HK and SG is that the problem customers tend to be young. As in, 16 to 20, and usually using their parents' accounts.

On the flip side, the legit customers in those countries are among the most polite people you'll run into. If they need help, they ask in professional terms, and they are usually much better about giving the details necessary to fix their problems.

A mixed bag, like anything else.

Mind you, it may be very different outside of the IM field.

Paul

Paul,

You should've followed Allen's lead, and banned Bev's IP address, too!

Steve

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rondo 16 years ago

block a country, block by ip address, deny access by country

Andrew
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Eric Johnson 16 years ago

Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt

You know, "The Secret" and "Law Of Attraction" type of stuff.

9 times out of 10 huh?

Sorry but The Law of Attraction seems to me like complete bunkus. I mean as a christian, granted it goes against my beliefs BUT even if I weren't it just seems silly.
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LB 16 years ago

Let me give you guys some "tough love" regarding the refunding criminals.

If you make them jump through hoops to get their refund or ignore them until they contact your payment processor, then you are just giving them more control over you.

Once you refund them they are gone for good...you have no more obligation to them ever. You can free your spirit from these energy sucking leeches by simply sending off that refund email and extinguishing them from your life.

From a more practical standpoint, if you refuse a refund you risk the chance of chargeback...which is a whole hell of a lot worse than a refund.

Additionally, many of these criminals are more than happy to "googlebomb" your search engine rankings, send out spam with your return address, or post false complaints on popular forums.

You really have nothing to gain by refusing the refund if it's a digital product and the refund is going to happen anyway.

Just give it and move on, it's amazingly liberating.
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- trafficwave 16 years ago
  
  Good point, LB.
  
  It took me a while to get to that point, myself. There was a lot of "ego" involved. But the freedom and release that comes from just letting go allowed me to focus on more important (and positive) issues.
  
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- Ryan Gabriel 16 years ago
  
  Yeah, you are probably right, LB.
  
  The reason why it irritates me so much is that, when selling PLR writing and websites like myself, each fraudulent transaction either takes income right out of my pocket or value away from my legitimate customers. I won't let the latter happen, and so I have to eat the lost income from this guy.
  
  Oh well, with no delivery cost and very little overhead, I guess it's one of the inherent problems with digital products.
  
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  tommygadget 16 years ago
  
  Yes, getting a refund on a PLR pack of websites would really annoy me, especially if they were reselling them because obviously the TOS also means nothing to them either.
  
  TomG.
  
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Adeel_Chowdhry

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Want a good laugh?

Another sale came in, same product at 4:50 PM today. I looked at the name
and said to myself, "Great, another refund on the way."

At 5:03 PM, I received an email from the person.

"This is not what I expected. I want a refund."

It's a 10 ebook package that takes 5 to 7 minutes to download at least.

He couldn't have possibly looked at it.

Well, he's going to have to write to Clickbank for his refund because I'm not
making this easy for him.

I've had it with these crooks and this is why I am done submitting anymore
products to the Clickbank marketplace for the make money online niche.

I agree Steven.

As much as I used to like Clickbank, serial refunders have really gotten on my nerves.

I have already started moving a few products over to accept Paypal only!...and i'm loving it.

PDC is going to be another favourite of mine now...so that I can have an affiliate program.

Sure, commissions will have to be paid out manually (pain in the butt), but at the end of the day, i'll have that little bit more money too.

- Adeel

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Steve Taylor

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Want a good laugh?

Another sale came in, same product at 4:50 PM today. I looked at the name
and said to myself, "Great, another refund on the way."

At 5:03 PM, I received an email from the person.

"This is not what I expected. I want a refund."

It's a 10 ebook package that takes 5 to 7 minutes to download at least.

He couldn't have possibly looked at it.

Well, he's going to have to write to Clickbank for his refund because I'm not
making this easy for him.

I've had it with these crooks and this is why I am done submitting anymore
products to the Clickbank marketplace for the make money online niche.

Careful with this Steven, if paypal is involved and too many refund complaints...you run the risk of getting your paypal 'limited'.
Just refund, be done with it and move on.

-Steve

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peteinoz

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Steve Taylor

Careful with this Steven, if paypal is involved and too many refund complaints...you run the risk of getting your paypal 'limited'.
Just refund, be done with it and move on.

-Steve

Steve, this is the problem, its not his paypal account its CB's So he has no control over the refund process, so his PP account is not in jeopardy

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Junkee 16 years ago

Nigeria for one. I can get a list of a bunch of countries some sites do not allow. Kinda busy right now but if I think of it in a few days I will get the list and post it.
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- peteinoz 16 years ago
  
  its the same reason sites like Azoogle use geo referring, exactly the same principle..
  
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- Junkee 16 years ago
  
  Here's some countries everyone should be aware of. I just decided to go ahead and grab the list and get it done.
  
  Belarus, Bulgaria, Coute de Ivore, Croatia, Ghana, Hungary, Ibadan, Ivory Coast, Lithuania, Macedonia, Nauru, Nigeria, Oshogbo, Osun, Oyo State, Oyo-state, Romania, Slovak Republic, Slovenia, Ukraine, Yugoslavia
  
  There's probably somemore countries but I do not have them yet. Surprisingly enough I have sent items to Communist China and all was well.
  
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- Mraz 16 years ago
  
  It depends on your hosting server. You can prevent unwanted sales from certain geographic areas easily if you have the right tools in your server. Ex, a cPanel feature if you're on a shared hosting environment, or iptables if you're on dedicated server.
  
  iptables is a firewall and it's extremely powerful and flexible. Track, block, and hunt.
  
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- Kevin Riley 16 years ago
  
  Reading through here, I'm perplexed. I don't have any one country that refunds at a higher rate. I have had weird problems with two French customers, a number of strange reasons for refunds from Americans (but that is my biggest market), and not a single refund request from Papua New Guinea.
  
  As for singling out Nigerians, two IMers who I've corresponded with a lot are based in Nigeria. One even sent me a real (as in, in an envelope) letter. That was a surprise.
  
  Paul mentioned HK and SG, but I've got a lot of customers from those two places and I find them to be great customers. In fact, SG and HK rank amongst my favourite customer bases.
  
  Josh, I wouldn't block countries. It's not fair to tar a whole country with the scammer brush just because they have a few more bad apples.
  
  Truly, I see no pattern, and I never expect a refund.
  
  As for CB customers, compared to my direct PP sales, they do refund a bit more. However, I don't even look at those so it's no skin off my nose. CB is just bonus sales that covers our traveling habit, so a $20 refund means one less slice of Tzwetschge Torte at my favourite Berghaus in the Alps. Moral: Don't rely too much on CB, and don't put all your eggs in their basket.
  
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- Glenn Leader 16 years ago
  
  This is a timely thread. I've noticed a certain pattern too. Refunds are disproportionate to
  three countries in my personal experience. A lot of people in this thread suggest you just
  refund them and move on. But there's more to it than that. Refund percentages affects the
  possibilities of doing JV's, if you have a high refund rate, it's much harder to get a JV partner
  to look at your offer.
  
  BTW, one of these countries is an English speaking WASP culture, similar to England, so no
  accusations of racism holds any water here.
  
  Glenn
  
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- Suthan M 16 years ago
  
  Never had any sale refunded from India.. touch wood on that..
  
  But romania is one, and Singapore is another for me :-(
  
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- jasonl70 16 years ago
  
  I use ppc.. I quickly cut out all non-english speaking countries. This cut my ppc in half, and I lost only a tiny bit of sales (maybe 1%).
  
  Next, I cut my spam-complaints, unsubs, and refunds in half when I blocked the UK (and they only made up 25% of my list). Every opt-in from the UK was over a $1 net loser for me. I love the UK - I spent the bulk of the 90's stationed there (RAF Mildenhall) when I was in the USAF... but my english mates are a tough bunch to crack
  
  All of my 'sob stories' begging for free product come from the US..
  
  My most pleasant and enjoyable customers, by FAR??? Australia! It makes me want to move there
  
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SunTzu82

16 years ago

Maybe there's a way to keep these serial refunders from keeping your product after "returning". Have your product on a password protected site and then if they refund; block their password to deny access.

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Mraz

16 years ago

Originally Posted by SunTzu82

Maybe there's a way to keep these serial refunders from keeping your product after "returning". Have your product on a password protected site and then if they refund; block their password to deny access.

Problem is, they would have downloaded them all first...

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sparrow 16 years ago

Folks, most of the refunds you see are people sharing your products on file sharing sites.

I get emails all the time getting this pointed out to me I saw your product being share here and there.

In fact strange thing just the other day I got a customer from one of my products he downloaded from one of these sites.

Kind of made up for some of the hassle of seeing my stuff being passed around.

Ed
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- Junkee 16 years ago
  
  All this talk about your products getting copied and passed around makes me think of Bill Gates when he first started Microsoft. The software used to be the "holes in the paper schroll" type programming and Bill Gates used to go through all kinds of B.S. with people forging copies and selling the forged copies themselves.
  
  I guess it never quits when you can only put your ideas and thoughts on paper or into electronic media form.
  
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- Eric Johnson 16 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by sparrow
  
  In fact strange thing just the other day I got a customer from one of my products he downloaded from one of these sites.
  
  Ed
  
  Wow, he actually admitted that to you?
  
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  Steve Peters Benn 16 years ago
  
  Hmmm, I do know what you mean Steven. I had one customer refund two to three minutes after purchasing. He was also a pirate. He didn't read the terms and conditions properly and didn't know that his PDF was unique to him.
  
  Didn't stop the piracy, but the guy was obviously intent on getting his cash back. I think you can stop them getting one with the right legal stuff, but is it worth the effort? I suspect not!
  
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peteinoz

16 years ago

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

Steve,

There are free Geo-Targeting scripts out there that allow you to check the location and redirect to an alternate page if you want. If it's consistently from a given area, that's a fairly simple solution to use.

Yep, what Mike said..

redirect this traffic to a page where its not so easy to instant refund the same product.

pete

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Chris Hunter 16 years ago

Originally Posted by peteinoz

Yep, what Mike said..

redirect this traffic to a page where its not so easy to instant refund the same product.

pete

Yes, but can this be done with Clickbank?
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- peteinoz 16 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Chris Hunter
  
  Yes, but can this be done with Clickbank?
  
  you put the geo script on your cb sales page, so traffic from se's or adwords will be redirected..
  
  If the originator comes via the clickbank site, they still have their country of origins IP address.. so yes, they will be redirected to the site/page of your choice.
  
  note: its not 100% effective, but with time it can get pretty close and would suit a successful cb product..
  
  cheers
  
  Pete
  
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- Jag82 16 years ago
  
  On a sidenote, Steve...if you are aware of who these pesky refunders are, why not just ban them?
  
  Do you know you can ban them based on their IP address, domain or email address?
  
  Sometimes, these people are out to cause trouble. Just not worth pulling out your hair in frustration over them. Just simply have them out of your life.
  
  Big Mike has a software called "Refund Guard" that does this. I'm a reseller and you can check up more about it here
  => Refund Guard | Stop Serial Refunders COLD through pre-sale management and pre-emptively blocking purchases
  
  On another note, I definitely have to agree with you that there are a higher proportions of refunders from certain countries. Nothing racist about it though for having this observation.
  
  Jag
  
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imb

16 years ago

Yes I'm interested to know what countries are these?

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Steve Iser

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Sad as it is, I can predict refunds. All I have to do is look at the name on
the sale and the country it's from and I can, 9 out of 10 times, predict that
the sale will be refunded.

I don't know if it's a language barrier problem (do these people expect the
product to be written in their language) or if it's simply that these countries
are real problems.

We all know that Clickbank won't allow certain countries to sell their products
because of the rampant fraud, so there must be something to this.

So why do they let people from these countries BUY their products?

Just doesn't make sense to me.

Anyway, my latest "prediction" just came true. My latest sale from one
of products from 8/6 (only 4 days ago) has been refunded. Kind of tough
to go through a 10 ebook package in 4 days and determine its worth. But
these guys manage to do it, time and time again. Oh, and yes, when the
sale came in on the 6th I took one look and said, "Damn, another refund"

I guess it's the cost of doing business.

Ask anyone who is doing huge volume of sales online and they will tell you they
only accept certain countries for traffic.

Fraud goes high and conversions go low.

Most countries in the world are terrible when to things like this. I've seen it
again and again with my sites.

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LegitIncomes

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Sad as it is, I can predict refunds. All I have to do is look at the name on
the sale and the country it's from and I can, 9 out of 10 times, predict that
the sale will be refunded.

I don't know if it's a language barrier problem (do these people expect the
product to be written in their language) or if it's simply that these countries
are real problems.

We all know that Clickbank won't allow certain countries to sell their products
because of the rampant fraud, so there must be something to this.

So why do they let people from these countries BUY their products?

Just doesn't make sense to me.

Anyway, my latest "prediction" just came true. My latest sale from one
of products from 8/6 (only 4 days ago) has been refunded. Kind of tough
to go through a 10 ebook package in 4 days and determine its worth. But
these guys manage to do it, time and time again. Oh, and yes, when the
sale came in on the 6th I took one look and said, "Damn, another refund"

I guess it's the cost of doing business.

I agree 100%. I just received a sale yesterday, and right when I saw the country I thought to myself "well that will be refunded". And sure enough, it was.

I think from now on I'm just going to automatically refund select countries, and not even send them the order. I hate to block an entire country, but that's about where I'm at.

Josh

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Eric Johnson

16 years ago

People always say not to judge and it is true that sometimes you are wrong BUT I used to work as a waiter and I got really really really good at determining if someone was going to tip or not. Was rarely wrong. Fact is you can stereotype certain groups of people, you just can.

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richard-pc

16 years ago

Steve, if its not impolite to ask, it would be very interesting to know the ULR of the site you're getting the refund requests from (in certain countries).

Are you OK to share this?

Best wishes, Richard

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Steven Wagenheim

16 years ago

Originally Posted by richard-pc

Steve, if its not impolite to ask, it would be very interesting to know the ULR of the site you're getting the refund requests from (in certain countries).

Are you OK to share this?

Best wishes, Richard

Richard, I don't want to blast any countries in public. Besides, as others have
pointed out, everyone is going to have different experiences.

I can only speak from my own.

Who knows, maybe it's as Jason has suggested...negative thoughts
and bad karma (I added the karma part)

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Michael Ellis 16 years ago

Racism?? Geeze...c'mon.

Jason, really, why go down that road?
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I Can Predict Refunds

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