Are You a Pimp or a Businessperson?

by tecHead 32 replies
'sup Warriors...

Now, let me preface that without the intent on it becoming so; this post may wind up being a little long. I will attempt to convey my thoughts here as succinct as possible, however.. I feel this is something we all should take into some serious consideration as we travel down this road to perceived riches.

I've never been embarassed to say where I come from. As a matter of fact, my Nana always told me it was vitally important to my manhood to remember my cultural origins; (rest her soul). I grew up watching; (and interacting with); drug dealers, pimps, gangsters... you get the point. All of whom would reply to the question, "Why are you doing this?" with the answer, "Its a bidness..."

Now, Nana never used profanity but would always tell me, "Boy; remember that Karma is a female dog with the memory of an elephant. Be careful what you do and how you treat people." I'm sure there's a Nana in everyone's life that has conveyed this wisdom to them, as well.

How does this apply to marketing, tecHead?!
Well, (hang with me here), I just finished reading another pitch, out of curiosity. I won't go into any details about who's pitch it was; as its irrelevant to the point I'm attempting to make, here. Anyway, skimming through the pitch I got to the price; yeah, the price.

The first thing that pops into my head is, "How can this person; in good faith; say they're wanting to "help" people with this close to $2K price tag?? I mean, my Accounting 101 and 102 classes combined didn't cost me 2 grand!" Granted, I didn't go to an Ivy League school; but, with an Ivy League education I'm not only accredited with internationally reknown and recognized credentials.. but, I am on the top of the list for any position in my field. I also have the knowledge to start and run any business. Coincidently, even without that Ivy League degree, I am equipped with the business knowledge needed to formulate, build, run and maintain a profitable business, as well.

Now, for the past month all over the headlines we see "Economy downfall" and "Lehman Brothers fails!" and "Bailout Plans Needed"... even the President found it necessary to give a State of the Union address just about the current economy and what needs to happen or else.

At the same time, I've seen and heard Internet Marketers talk about the release of said product for $2K, $3K and even $5K. Some at $197 a month and a couple at $397 a month.

Now, I don't know about you or how you think; (and probably why I'm writing this -- to find out); but, this doesn't seem like these people are taking responsibility for the status they've been given by their buying public. And yes; as any type of businessperson you do have a responsibility to those who purchase from you.

Now, I'm sure there will be those that will read this thread and think; (and even voice); that its not their responsibility to look after these people, (the buyers). OR they'll say, "Its all about the perceived value". Yet, to me... that's nothing more than the personification of the above mentioned drug dealer, pimp and gangster who said, "Its a bidness. If they don't buy it from me; they'll buy it from somebody else."

Where do we as IMers draw the line? When do we as IMers take responsibility and actually help guide those people away from spending their rent money to get that fix?

Don't get this post wrong; I am NOT jealous or possessing any type of envy towards those that spit out these (IMHO) outrageous prices. Nor am I upset that they actually have people shelling out these amounts in hopes of attaining some special unique knowledge that can not be otherwise obtained. I wish these individuals; (just like I wish anyone); success in everything they choose to do. Do what thou wilt; as long as it hurt no one.

And that, to me, is the key.... as long as it hurt no one.

I'm gonna stop here before I start rambling. I just wanted to put this out into the Universe and see what it attracts through this particular medium and gathering place. Perhaps I'm making enemies; perhaps not. Yet, those that find my words here offensive wouldn't be those that I'd want to interact with, anyway.

Peace, Love & Prosperity (to all)
tecHead
#main internet marketing discussion forum #businessperson #pimp
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  • Profile picture of the author Ram
    If I owned a jewelry store, and you came in and wanted to buy a Rolex or a Piaget. am I supposed to refuse to sell it too you because you "might" not be able to afford it? Heck no. If you have cash or a valid credit card, the watch is yours. And would you like some cufflinks, perhaps a nice ring to go along with it?

    Would that make me a pimp or a businessman?

    If I owned a high dollar restaurant, should I direct you to a McDonald's because I don't think you can afford my restaurant? Or should I serve you and gladly accept full payment plus tip at the end of the meal.

    Would that make me a pimp or a businessman?

    If I owned a car dealership and sold expensive sports cars, should I refuse to sell you a Porsche because I don't think you can afford it? Heck no. As long as you have the cash or the credit, you are driving home in a Porsche.

    Would that make me a pimp or a businessman?

    Well, I don't own a jewelry store, restaurant or car lot. I own an Internet marketing company. I sell, among other things, information products on how to make money. Some are very expensive.
    And if you have the money, you can buy them.

    In fact, I will do my best to make you want them so badly you feel you have to buy them. Just like the makers of Rolex or Piaget or Porsche or any other consumer product tries to do.

    Because Internet marketing is not some "higher calling." It's not a ministry. It's not "above" any other business. It's just a business. We sell things to people, for as much as we can, as often as we can.

    Does that make me a pimp or a businessman? You can decide that for yourself. Because it is not a question of fact, simply one of emotion, opinion, personal morality and, forgive me for saying this, more than a touch of self-righteousness.

    Is there a line we don't cross? Sure, but everyone has their own line. Your line is your line. Mine is mine.

    Cheers,
    Ram
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi TecHead,

      I think it's an interesting question. I agree with a lot of what Ram added. My opinion is that if anyone feels that the people selling the products you referred to are acting like pimps, they simply need to reframe their thoughts.

      The view I prefer to take is that a certain level of IMers have progressed to a point where they can demand those prices - therefore they have moved out of the limits of a certain chunk of the market, which in effect creates a 'new' opportunity, an opening.
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    • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
      I'm going to reply quickly before reading the rest of the responses here.

      First of all, I understand where you are coming from and it is a good place. A place of concern for your fellow man and trying to operate on a higher vibrational level. Your Nana is a wise woman and we’re both lucky to have had one.

      That said...

      There is nothing immoral, wrong or greedy about pricing your valuable and specialized knowledge at a premium.

      In fact, you could make the case that pricing it out of reach of the “mass market” goes further in preventing irresponsible choices than pricing it within reach of every Tom, Dick and Harry.

      Sure, it sucks that Mass Control costs $2k when you’re not making any money online. It feels like you’re left hanging in the breeze, trying to figure everything out on your own while they all slide down the greasy money chute.

      Struggling to get a handle on setting up a membership site feels like torture when you could drop $2k on Ryan Deiss’ Continuity Blueprint and make a quantum leap forward in that model.

      That pain and desperation leads to irrational and impulsive decision making, even by people who know better.

      Then, when they are not able to actual leverage it because... their product or offer is lacking... they don’t have the time or resources necessary to execute properly... they realize that they just aren’t all that good at marketing... when THAT reality hits, then it becomes a stinging negative.

      On the other hand, for someone who is making $5k a month, busting their ass and hitting a wall, investing that $2k can be exactly the necessary component for their business to grow to $10k, $20k or $50k a month. Time and again, we’ve seen people do exactly that using the specialized knowledge that they “bought”.

      So, why should a marketer charge one dollar LESS for something that can produce such a result?
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
    It's up to the buyer to take responsibility for how he spends his money.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel E Taylor
    Thanks to Eban Pegan I'm now both!
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    • Profile picture of the author Kerry Finch
      In an ideal world, you get what you pay for, and if you can't afford it, don't buy it - no doubt.

      However, when a pitch intentionally targets people who are down on their luck, and promises them financial security by using skills that they may not possess, and then charges them a week's rent every month for the privilege - looks like a pimp to me.

      In the uncertain times ahead, this is good time to reflect on the desperation of some people and on the real value of our deliverables IMHO.

      Kerry
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  • Charge whatever you feel like your time and effort is worth someone else paying for. I've been asked thousands for website design work that was done in frontpage in an hour or two, because that designer felt the time invested and quality of work was demanding of the price.

    Charge what you think its worth and offer a refund. If people can get their money back easily, then no one really loses but you if it's a manual process,

    I've sold coaching for $18,000 per person. That's a serious investment, some people who bought from me may not have been in a logical solution to afford it. I sold it anyway. Why? Because it had a refund policy that the customer VERY CLEARLY knew about.

    This isn't a case of "perceived" value really. It's a matter of value. I feel comfortable taking $2,000 from someone if they need my help with adwords, or some form of one on coaching, because I'm confident I can help, and I'm positive my time is worth as much.

    I'm not sure much about you personally, so don't take offense, but you sound a bit like me before I made my own high ticket items, and saw the amount of time and energy it took to create one and market it. I never thought anyone could justify the high prices on something that seemed so easy to create.
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    Money isn't real, George. It doesn't matter. It only seems like it does.

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  • I do agree though that some level of responsibility has to be taken, but I think thats more or less when dealing with high return products.

    What I mean by high return products, are those that offer high-end coaching for example. When you are on the phone selling this package for an hour, there are certain things you can do (as any salesperson knows), to close the sale way before the buyer has had time to make an informed or even logical decision.

    To people who say that it's entirely up to the buyer, think about someone calling your mother up and convincing her to cash out her 401k or life savings for something. Would you look her in the face and say "its absolutely no one's fault to blame but yours"?
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    Money isn't real, George. It doesn't matter. It only seems like it does.

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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      The market will ultimately decide what your product is worth.

      If you're selling something for $97 and the public doesn't think it's worth
      that much, they won't buy it.

      Here's an even better one.

      If you're selling something for $97 and the public perceives it, based on YOUR
      description of it, as something that should sell for $397, they may not buy
      it because they feel it's a cheap product and they're not really getting what
      you say they're going to get.

      Pricing is a tricky thing. It can go either way.
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  • Profile picture of the author tecHead
    I'm thinking that Kerry is close to being the only one that is getting what I'm saying, here. No offense.

    I don't think I mentioned anything about being able to afford anything. That's so far from my point, its crazy. IMHO, "afford-ability" is a perception.

    The Doctor that has a wife and children -- making $350K annual can "afford" to buy an ounce of coke a week. Yet, is the dealer doing him a favor by supplying it... or enabling this man's habit? Should he refuse to sell to the Dr. and suggest he teach his child about economics... or tell him another shipment of grade A is coming in, next week?

    Maybe I gave the impression of "afford-ability" with my reference to someone spending their rent money. Forgive me; I was simply talking.

    Christopher... I've sold my share of highER ticket items. I designed, staffed and ran clubs in Japan for businesses that exceeded their desired tax bracket; we're talking a LOT more than a couple thousand. So, no... I'm not "afraid" of money.

    My point of this post was .... let me put it this way... why are grocery stores; (for instance); lowering their prices? They know they have an "in demand" product.

    PLP,
    tecHead
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  • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
    Originally Posted by tecHead View Post

    Don't get this post wrong; I am NOT jealous or possessing any type of envy towards those that spit out these (IMHO) outrageous prices. Nor am I upset that they actually have people shelling out these amounts in hopes of attaining some special unique knowledge that can not be otherwise obtained. I wish these individuals; (just like I wish anyone); success in everything they choose to do. Do what thou wilt; as long as it hurt no one.

    And that, to me, is the key.... as long as it hurt no one.
    Who gets to decide what might be harmful, and what might not?

    If you've read Richard Bach's book Illusions: the Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah, you'll recall a scene set around a campfire where Bach raises a very similar point. Bach insists that we should all be able to do anything we want, so long as it doesn't harm another.

    At this point, a very polite vampire appears and requests a small 'donation' from Bach. He goes into full defense mode, even threatening the destroy the vampire if he tries to drink his blood.

    The upshot is that Bach chose to keep his blood, even though that decision would harm the vampire.

    You and I, and everyone else, has the same decision to make. And our own conscience to reconcile.

    It's more like "Do what thou wilt, and live with the consequences."

    Originally Posted by tecHead View Post

    My point of this post was .... let me put it this way... why are grocery stores; (for instance); lowering their prices? They know they have an "in demand" product.
    There's a local chain here in Florida that does indeed lower their prices on a handful of staples (bread, orange juice, ground beef, etc.). They also offer copious amounts of BOGO items. But they don't do it for purely altruistic reasons. They know people will buy more when they think they are saving money, and that they will also buy things to go along with those bargains that they might not have otherwise.

    They also want to create a habit - can't hit the grocery store until we see what XXXXX has on special this week...

    Bottom line, I will make my offers and do my utmost to make them irresistible within the boundaries of my own conscience. When someone takes me up on that offer, and I deliver what I promise, I sleep well. It's not up to me to decide if that buyer is worthy or not.

    I'm starting to go long myself, but I have one more thing to say...

    My grandfather ran the kitchen for a high-end restaurant for many years. There would be people for whom a night at that restaurant cost a week's wages. Those people were never turned away. In fact, they often got the royal treatment because their presence in the restaurant was obviously an event. What right did my grandfather, or the headwaiter or anyone else have to take that, and the person's dignity, away from them?

    If I want to buy your high-buck offer, and you tell me I'm not good enough, you are diminishing and disrespecting me. And that's far worse than taking some money I may not be able to afford...
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  • Profile picture of the author LB
    If you're making false promises, it's immoral and probably illegal whether your prospect is rich or poor.

    If your product is honest and your prospect wants it...why argue? Personally, I would be pissed if someone told me I couldn't afford their product when I was happily ready to buy it.
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  • Profile picture of the author drkellogs
    Business, the nature of it, is NOT to help you.

    It is to make a profit.

    It only needs to justify this by saying it helps you.

    Now, some REALLY do want to help, and some are out to scam you. But it is never at the expense of profit, otherwise it becomes a charity.

    Again, business, the purpose of it's existence is to create profit (and some say jobs).

    I, for one, never expect anyone to hand me anything. I try to help people as much as I can, and if a thing costs 1,000$ or 2,000$, then so be it.

    And generally speaking, humans, if put in a situation where they could get more money for less, they would take more.

    Wouldn't you?

    If you could outsource to India for 4$ an hour instead of 25$ an hour in America, which one do you take?

    If you feel morally responsible for keeping the jobs here, then you can go ahead and pay more for it.

    It's fine, I have no qualms with that. And if you're an outstanding marketer, you can certainly do that.

    But for most people, charging more = more money, = more profit = more money for their families, their dreams. Which is what it ALL boils down to.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jakehyten
    I'm not sure I even need to answer this question. Look at me... I'm obviously a Pimp that is also a Pimp Business person
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    TecHead,

    Great post. Here are my thoughts:

    I read in the newspaper the other day how easy it was to get credit from credit card companies and banks - like it was a bad thing. To me, that's just stupid. I have a $9000 credit card limit but I never pay any interest, because I don't spend more than I can afford (which compared to a lot of you isn't much, I'm sure).

    It is our job, as marketers, to present our offers in the best possible light. Personally, I always offer a guarantee on my stuff. If it's not worth what they paid, they can just send it back and get a refund. This takes the risk out of things, means that I don't have to worry about it, and has the handy plus of increasing my conversions.

    Now I may be weird but I think we have ourselves, and ONLY ourselves to blame for any choice we make. Drug dealers don't force people to buy their stuff with guns to their head - they offer the product. I don't do drugs because I, like almost everyone else, know how bad they are for me and that they are addictive and so forth. I have friends that do do them and still are aware of the consequences.

    It's not anyone's job to look out for someone else. Instead, people have to start taking responsibility for their own actions. McDonald's make fatty food - if I get fat is it their fault or mine? You might remember a guy who was ridiculously obese tried to sue them. I don't know if he won or not. But if I was the judge you can imagine how it would have gone:

    "So you're saying it's McDonald's fault that you took the effort to get to their store, handed over money, ate their food, knowing full well how bad for you it was, and now you want to blame them for fulfilling the service they offered?"

    Comparing your school costs to this mentoring are apples and oranges. They way I look at it for this particular product - if the mentoree works hard, then the mentor should be able to make him more than his 2k in a reasonable time-frame. Then not only is he ahead financially but he has the knowledge as well. If the mentor can't do that he shouldn't be offering it for that price, but that's a whole other debate. Let's assume he can do what he claims and that he's not being misleading or false.

    We shouldn't have to be society's police, and I refuse to be. Any client I have is treated like an adult - I don't do a screening to make sure they are spending their pocket money responsibly. If I knew for certain that it was impacting negatively on say their kids for example, that would be a different story. But how an anyone really know what goes on with their customers? And even if you do, there's not a lot you can do about it.

    You have to accept that people are stupid, and most of them don't want to make the right decisions.

    I'm not even sure if I've made a point here. But these are my thoughts on the matter.

    -Dan
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  • Profile picture of the author tommyp
    I agree. It is funny how they say they want to help but when it comes down to it they are marketers.

    They are free to charge whatever they want but when they say they want to help people but then charge $5000 it's like the only people who can be helped are those that have that to already. Most of the people that really need the help can't afford the $2500 course.

    So it comes down to helping those that can't make a profit in their business but are not hurting for money either, and not about helping those who have very little money to start, unless they offer a payment plan.
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel E Taylor
      Originally Posted by tommyp View Post

      I agree. It is funny how they say they want to help but when it comes down to it they are marketers.

      They are free to charge whatever they want but when they say they want to help people but then charge $5000 it's like the only people who can be helped are those that have that to already. Most of the people that really need the help can't afford the $2500 course.

      So it comes down to helping those that can't make a profit in their business but are not hurting for money either, and not about helping those who have very little money to start, unless they offer a payment plan.
      Maybe they just want to weed out terrible
      customers and dealing with people that have
      ridiculous mindsets and think someone "owes" them
      something.

      There are plenty of marketers who offer "newbie" courses.

      Then there are guys who offer products that cater to
      buyers like me. I don't have stupid self limiting beliefs
      and have a respectable size businesses and willing to invest
      more money in my education to get me to the next level.

      THEY ARE HELPING. THEY ARE HELPING ME AND COUNTLESS
      OTHERS WHO ARE NOT LITTLE CRYBABIES AND DON'T FEEL THAT OTHER
      PEOPLE HAVE A DUTY TO HOLD MY HAND TO THE PROMISE LAND BECAUSE
      THEY MAKE LOTS OF MONEY!

      Daniel
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        When I go to the store to buy a bottle of milk, the guy who owns the place
        doesn't care if I drink the milk or not or if it makes me healthy or anything.
        All he cares about is that he makes his money.

        I choose to buy the milk either because I believe it will help me or I like the
        taste of it.

        Too many people make wanting to earn a living by selling things a dirty word.

        It's not.

        As long as we are providing a product or service that has the "potential" to
        help somebody, then we are doing nothing wrong by selling it...whatever the
        cost.

        As consumers, we also have a choice.

        We can choose to purchase the product or service or not. Nobody is
        holding a gun to our heads.

        I'd like to buy a Mercedes, but I can't afford it, so I don't. I don't have
        any right to expect the dealer to give it to me for less just because I
        want it.

        Actually, I don't want a Mercedes, but if I did, I'd still have to do without.

        The entitlement mentality that is running rampant in this world is why a
        lot of families are so screwed up. Having come from a hometown that is
        now almost a slum, I have seen this first hand. Families with almost no
        income still go out and buy their Ipods and big screen TVs on credit while
        making just enough welfare to feed their 7 kids, that they have no
        business having.

        When I was growing up, I was taught responsibility. You didn't buy
        something unless you could afford it. Because of that, my debt is small
        and manageable and by 2010, I will be totally debt free.

        But this world, for the most part, doesn't know how to live that way.
        They don't care that they have a Honda Civic budget, if that. They still
        want to drive a Lexus.

        It's a big reason why the US is in the financial mess that it's in right now.

        And until people begin to live responsibly, this kind of mess is going to
        continue.

        Just my 2 cents on the subject.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Techead,

    I don't think there's any trouble 'getting' what your view is - you see irresponsible marketers praying people with high hopes and low finances and it makes you puke. You think there should be more social responsibility and that just because you can price something at $2k, doesn't make it 'worth' $2k.

    But things are what they are. Some people are conmen. Some people really are out to screw people for everything they can get. Some businesses really don't have any social responsibility at all.

    What does that have to do with anything? That's people for you.

    On the plus side - the opposite is also true and there are a lot of amazing people doing everything they can to improve the lives of others.

    Some people will say business is just business - and for them it is. That doesn't mean it applies to everyone. For some of us the thought of business just being business is offensive. Life's too short to defer living it fully until 'after you've made it'.

    So, while I empathize with the point you're making, ultimately the way to change things is for YOU to do things the way you think they should be. If others see the benefit and do the same - great. But you can't expect everyone to have your standards.

    If you get annoyed when other people don't behave the way you would - you're in for an unhappy life.

    It's a good point to raise for discussion because many people get sucked in to the dollars signs and forget life can be more than just about making money - and should be. It's possible to make excellent money AND be socially responsible.

    Andy
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    nothing to see here.

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    • Profile picture of the author tecHead
      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

      Techead,

      I don't think there's any trouble 'getting' what your view is - you see irresponsible marketers praying people with high hopes and low finances and it makes you puke. You think there should be more social responsibility and that just because you can price something at $2k, doesn't make it 'worth' $2k. ...

      Andy
      Thank you, Andy. You eloquently articulated a large part of my scattered point, with that statement.

      Yes, social responsibility; within marketing. In the midst of working, it took me a minute to fully wrap my mind around this; and from doing a search on that particular phrase on Google I found a good number of individuals pondering the same thing. Is it good or bad?.

      Reading some of the responses here, there seems to be a slight contradiction looming with the more than one time heard and read... "You have to foster a relationship with your list/clients".

      My (follow up) question to those that have firmly stated that "Its the buyer's responsibility..." is, what type of relationship are you expecting to foster with that type of overview?

      This is NOT a negative question; its a realistic one.

      PLP,
      tecHead
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Monty
    The world revolves around supply and demand. There are TONS of IM products out there for which lots of people charge lots of money. If the supply is do great, why are prices so high? Because the DEMAND is astronomical.

    Seriously, you could probably put together an e-book on how to make $100 a day using two rocks and a dirty diaper and SOMEONE is going to buy the thing.

    That's why it all depends on the reputation of the person you are buying from, as well as the reputation of the person making the recommendation. Online reputation is everything.

    If a person has a history of creating crappy products, don't buy them. If an affiliate always "pimps" crappy products, don't buy from that affiliate.

    Use common sense and buy the tools that you need...the tools that work.
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  • Profile picture of the author tecHead
    Thanks everybody for all your input; I expect no less than this level of diversification and commonality.

    Overall theme, is yeah -- we're all marketers and the bottom line is we're in business to make money. I agree with this; which is why I have friends that are engaged in (what I think are) questionable activities and debate with them, as well. Yet, we're still friends.

    For the most part, I don't see anything wrong with pricing something on the high end IF the price is justified; and then, everyone has their own set of criteria in which they determine this justification.

    My point here was more so to suggest that we factor the state of the current economic situation into that criteria when determining the justification of that price. Simple.

    Just for the record, however...
    Some of the responses seemed to take the tone of responding to me judging.. and that I am not doing. Judge not lest yet be judged; is my mentality.

    So, for anyone that got that impression; please forgive me. That was not the intent.

    PLP,
    tecHead
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  • Profile picture of the author MoBuck$
    You have to be an Honest Business Pimp. I think that whatever it is that someone is looking for... and you have the solution... then run with it.

    If they don't have the money to spend on it, then they shouldn't break out the Card and purchase anyways. But if they do.. how can you say NO ?

    You have to be an Honest Business Pimp though...

    I use to sell digital cameras at the local flea markets and this guy came up to me one day and said "my son needs a digital camcorder... will this camera record Video ?"

    I said "Yes it will record video" (as most digital cameras do now), but I also told him that is was not a Digital Camcorder. He Thanked me (as he really didn't seem to know his stuff) and didn't purchase.

    I didn't feel down that he didn't purchase the camera... because that wasn't what he was looking for.

    Get me ? ... An Honest - Smart - Business - Pimp .
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  • Profile picture of the author ExRat
    Hi,

    This has turned into a good discussion. Some interesting views -

    Daniel,

    McDonald's make fatty food - if I get fat is it their fault or mine? You might remember a guy who was ridiculously obese tried to sue them. I don't know if he won or not. But if I was the judge you can imagine how it would have gone:

    "So you're saying it's McDonald's fault that you took the effort to get to their store, handed over money, ate their food, knowing full well how bad for you it was, and now you want to blame them for fulfilling the service they offered?"
    But they don't advertise it as anything but healthy. They lie instead. And they target very young children with bribes of toys and stuff. I think it's questionable whether the person really knew JUST how unhealthy that stuff is.

    There is a line in how you market your products that can SO easily be crossed, and this does apply to what we do as well.

    Daniel,

    Maybe they just want to weed out terrible
    customers and dealing with people that have
    ridiculous mindsets and think someone "owes" them
    something.

    There are plenty of marketers who offer "newbie" courses.

    Then there are guys who offer products that cater to
    buyers like me. I don't have stupid self limiting beliefs
    and have a respectable size businesses and willing to invest
    more money in my education to get me to the next level.

    THEY ARE HELPING. THEY ARE HELPING ME AND COUNTLESS
    OTHERS WHO ARE NOT LITTLE CRYBABIES AND DON'T FEEL THAT OTHER
    PEOPLE HAVE A DUTY TO HOLD MY HAND TO THE PROMISE LAND BECAUSE
    THEY MAKE LOTS OF MONEY!
    You have an interesting view, considering you claim to have come from nothing and become self-made. What's interesting is that you equate self-limiting beliefs with stupidity.

    I wonder if every single one of your friends are successful? If not, I wonder if you voice the same sort of strong opinions towards those people?

    The majority of people in the world have self-limiting beliefs. In more cases than not, this is because they have been oppressed in some way for most of their lives. To see this as being down to stupidity is the height of stupidity itself in my opinion. I hope for your sake, that you never hit rock bottom because it will feel very uncomfortable for you to be on the same level as all of those 'stupid' people.

    Perhaps it's down to the exuberance of youth.

    Loudmac,

    Your Nana is a wise woman and we’re both lucky to have had one.
    Yep. That's exactly what I thought when I read -

    I'm sure there's a Nana in everyone's life that has conveyed this wisdom to them, as well.
    Some of you might want to consider that some people never had a 'Nana' and would dearly have loved to have had wise guidance in their lives. Am I bleating? No, I'm trying to make your world a better place. Because if you don't understand my point(s) now, those lessons are surely waiting for you further down the line.

    Andy,
    Some people will say business is just business - and for them it is. That doesn't mean it applies to everyone. For some of us the thought of business just being business is offensive. Life's too short to defer living it fully until 'after you've made it'.
    I really liked all of your post. It demostrates maturity and probably hard-earned wisdom.
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel E Taylor
      Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

      Hi,

      This has turned into a good discussion. Some interesting views -

      Daniel,

      But they don't advertise it as anything but healthy. They lie instead. And they target very young children with bribes of toys and stuff. I think it's questionable whether the person really knew JUST how unhealthy that stuff is.

      There is a line in how you market your products that can SO easily be crossed, and this does apply to what we do as well.

      Daniel,

      You have an interesting view, considering you claim to have come from nothing and become self-made. What's interesting is that you equate self-limiting beliefs with stupidity.

      I wonder if every single one of your friends are successful? If not, I wonder if you voice the same sort of strong opinions towards those people?

      The majority of people in the world have self-limiting beliefs. In more cases than not, this is because they have been oppressed in some way for most of their lives. To see this as being down to stupidity is the height of stupidity itself in my opinion. I hope for your sake, that you never hit rock bottom because it will feel very uncomfortable for you to be on the same level as all of those 'stupid' people.

      Perhaps it's down to the exuberance of youth.

      Loudmac,

      Yep. That's exactly what I thought when I read -

      Some of you might want to consider that some people never had a 'Nana' and would dearly have loved to have had wise guidance in their lives. Am I bleating? No, I'm trying to make your world a better place. Because if you don't understand my point(s) now, those lessons are surely waiting for you further down the line.

      Andy,
      I really liked all of your post. It demostrates maturity and probably hard-earned wisdom.

      Get overself. I didn't call anyone stupid. Called the self limiting
      beliefs are stupid. And they are. I had them, and people I know
      have them, and I let them know that.

      Daniel
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      Self Actualization is one's true purpose. Everything
      else is an illusion.

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      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi Daniel,

        Get overself.
        Same to you.

        I didn't call anyone stupid.
        I didn't say that you did. There was an implication in what I said, as well as in what you said.

        But I understand your point better now.

        I still don't agree that anyone with self-limiting beliefs are 'LITTLE CRYBABIES' who 'FEEL THAT OTHER PEOPLE HAVE A DUTY TO HOLD MY HAND'.

        Some of them might be, but not all of them. And I feel that it is wise to remember that - that was my point. Put it another way - if that's where YOU came from -
        I had them
        ...then perhaps you fail to demonstrate that when you appear to look down with scorn upon those people who haven't managed to shake them off yet.

        Why make it seem that you look down on those people when on the other hand, it appears that you actually spend time helping those people with a leg up?

        Perhaps something is getting lost in communication here.
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  • Profile picture of the author shsmedia
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    • Profile picture of the author TD
      I think there two things wrong with this thread.

      Firstly there is no difference between a businessperson and pimp,
      they are both business people, although one of them is a despicable
      one (the Pimp).

      Secondly a pimp is someone who gets others to sell (often by force)
      the most treasured part of themselves in order to line their
      pockets, say what you like about many internet marketers and guru's
      but they do not force you into anything.

      You may argue that many gurus' (internet marketing experts) often
      sell highly priced products and services to vulnerable individuals
      that are not worth the money, however there two sides to this.

      Pricing a product or service at $397, $1000, and $2000 is irrelevant
      if you are able use that product or service to make back 10 times
      the value.

      On the other side many people who get into Internet marketing and by
      that I mean selling products or services online, are often their own
      worst enemy.

      They perceive low priced products as pretty much worthless as
      compared to a guru's highly priced $1997 system, yet they complain
      when they discover that the said guru's system is no different than
      the $47 eBook they purchased 6 months previously.

      One of the most fundamental things I've discovered over the years as
      a trainer and coach is that the more limited and restrictive your
      belief system is the more you feel you have to pay in order to
      create the results you want.

      How this works is this:

      You have two people Bill & John; Bill has come from a difficult
      background and has a low self image and feelings of inadequacy,
      whilst John is pretty optimistic, confident and focused.

      Let's say that both Bill and John decide create financial
      independence by developing an online business.

      They both purchase an eBook for $97 that gives them a complete
      system for creating an online business.

      As they both study the material and begin implementing the
      strategies Bill starts to lose interest and feels that the book
      doesn't answer all their questions, whilst John gets into it and
      starts researching niches and developing a product.

      Weeks past and John is ready with his first product, whilst Bill has
      totally lost interest in the book, until while surfing the net out
      of boredom, finds a home study course created by a guru priced at
      $397 and quickly makes a purchase.

      More weeks pass, and John is now starting to make sales, and again
      Bill has lost interest in the home study course and is now looking
      for something else and discovers a new program by the same guru that
      is priced at $1997 and he quickly purchases it.

      Even more weeks pass and John is now making a comfortable income
      from his new product and is now looking to develop a backend
      product, Bill you guessed it is bored again and totally
      disillusioned and decides that all guru's are frauds an d vows to
      never purchase another product from them...until he discovers a
      unique coaching programming that is promises to reveal the "real
      secrets" to creating wealth online, this program is priced at $197
      per month and as such it seems more reasonable than his previous
      purchases.

      Six months more pass and John has now built several products on the
      back of his first one and is now earning between $5000 and $10,000
      per month and has built up a sizeable list, Bill the other hand has
      dropped out of the coaching program due to lack of money and
      results.

      A year goes by and Johns now has his own thriving online business,
      whilst Bill has given up totally having spent several thousand
      dollars and guess what, Bill is fed up with gurus.

      The difference between Bill and John was simply this:

      Bill had limiting beliefs that were always holding him back, but due
      to pride or just being in denial he never worked on changing this
      aspect of himself, instead he decided that someone else could solve
      the problem and as a result he lost a great deal of money. John on
      the other hand simply had a different mindset and set of beliefs
      that allowed him to take the action necessary to create the results
      he wanted...it is that simple folks.

      This little story is the real truth about making a living online, it
      isn't about who your guru is or what course you purchased, it's
      about whether you have the right mindset and beliefs that will allow
      you take action on a $97 dollar eBook and follow-through.

      My belief is that if you can't take action and follow-through on a
      $7, $37, $67, $97 report or eBook then there is no point in paying
      more as even though you may sit at the feet of some guru or expert
      in a seminar, ultimately you are still "you" and until you change
      and alter your beliefs and mindset then you'll just keep throwing
      money down the drain and make someone else richer.

      Before anyone says "low priced products don't have any value" let me
      tell you that last year I accidentally downloaded a special report
      that was FREE that showed me how to create a new income stream and
      with just $150 investment I've created a product that has earned me
      over $20,000 so far.

      This is just my two cents, however I urge everyone reading this
      post, to simply wakeup from the delusion that only big ticket
      products can help you.

      Regards
      TD
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      • I find that I naturally gravitate to those who do right by other people, both here and other places online. The closer you are to a "huckster", the less likely it is that I will buy your product or do business with you.

        Having said that, I also know that even good people can do very bad things to make money, if pressed by circumstances or those close to them. You have to ask if the person that "pimped" a given product or service is genuinely bent or just plain desperate.

        Hopefully, the desperate will simply fail and move on to a better idea (or better actions) to make money. As for the bent, hopefully they will make a lot of money -- and spend it all on doctor bills!
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        "The will to prepare to win is more important than the will to win." -- misquoting Coach Vince Lombardi
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  • Profile picture of the author MarkMcDonald
    At the end of the day no matter how much you read - nobody can be successful for you.

    Information is a crucial to the process. You use it and work hard enough and you'll succeed. You don't and let it sit on your desk or hard drive and that was a bad investment.

    For some people a homestudy course is an INSANE investment, if they take the knowledge and make $500,000 with it. But if they just read it and don't take action... they get no return at all. So the value you get isn't JUST up to the provider it's also based on your action.

    I'm spending nearly $15,000 on Tony Robbins seminars ALONE this year.... plus probably another for grand on books and other courses. You could say you've taken $15,000 out of my pocket and given me something that doesn't physically exist (mindset and knowledge).

    BUT I know that this information is going to make me a few hundred grand so I don't mind spending the money.

    High ticket items are almost crucial to be seen as a guru anyways. Look at some of the little known people who have had success with high ticket products...

    John Reese
    Frank Kern
    Mike Filsaime
    Tony Robbins
    Gary Halbert.

    Yep.

    The world doesn't owe you anything. If I sell you a product, I'll overdeliver big time and put in everything I've got to help you.

    But don't expect me to sell it to you for $5 because people have a mentality that they deserve everything handed to them easily.
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  • Profile picture of the author dbarnum
    OK, tecHead, I'll tell you what I really think. First you need to pay $2,000
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    • Profile picture of the author rperales
      Personally...

      ..business to me is providing good service period!..If we can't provide
      good service and make a decent profit we have no business being in
      business..

      I really recent people that go around putting people down in order
      for them to shine or better yet, to be in the spotlight..

      Most of us are stuck with Believe Systems that were developed in our
      growing years..and it is one of the hardest thing to do is to change
      those Believes especially when we don't know such Believes exist but
      instead that that's the way it is..

      Now, is it our fault?..Nope..it's really nobody fault because there just
      isn't enough teachers with the real knowledge or knowledge that
      works for everybody not the kind that makes people a lot of money
      with such knowledge..

      If such knowledge would work..then why in the heck would people with
      knowledge charge money for?..

      So for all those crappers out there that like to put people down so they
      can shine here's what I gotta say.."It takes one to know one haha"

      Mean while back at the ranch..

      Now, One business I had was a Club and you know the competition in that
      business and here is what I did so I can Shine..I charged almost double for
      drinks beer excetera..Now, what kind of business person would I be?..

      Let me give you a hint: "A good Service Business Person" a person who
      thinks PEOPLE!..

      Those prices folks, provided a good decent place for decent folks to come
      and have a good time because those prices kept all the scums out!..

      ..and all those good looking mamas..San Antonio...Now, what place would
      a lady go to maybe just maybe find a good decent man with money?..With
      those prices..well, figure it out..

      Just imagine all the name calling behind my back and even in their advertising..

      Was I making a huge profit?..nope, I gave free food I had a buffet ..

      So, when we think people folks the mind automatically throws some pretty
      darn good ideas!..

      rey

      P.S. I don't really know if this post belongs here, maybe , maybe not but
      all I was thinking PEOPLE!
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  • Profile picture of the author Roaringwoman
    Kudos to you for standing up and saying what I have been muttering under my breath for years.

    Any marketer, internet or otherwise has a moral responsibility to be fair and honorable when valuating and pricing their product.

    I have been on the 'sending' or the 'fulfillment' end of a few marketing campaigns and although I value the information and the development of it - not much of it is new information. Therefore a 2K or 3K price tag is unreasonable.

    However, people are so desperate and greedy (wanting to become rich over night and looking for that magic answer) that they will fall for just about anything. (better stand for something or you will fall for anything)

    And so they pay the going rate - regardless of how outrageous it is.

    THINK people. There is no NEW information out there. Think and use your common sense when buying a product - or when marketing your own.

    There is no magic in marketing. Use common words. Don't be cute or clever. People are asking what's in it for me and why should I care.

    Answer those questions and save yourself $2K.
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  • Profile picture of the author CopyMonster
    Originally Posted by tecHead View Post

    'sup Warriors...

    I feel this is something we all should take into some serious consideration as we travel down this road to perceived riches...

    Now, I don't know about you or how you think; (and probably why I'm writing this -- to find out); but, this doesn't seem like these people are taking responsibility for the status they've been given by their buying public. And yes; as any type of businessperson you do have a responsibility to those who purchase from you.

    Where do we as IMers draw the line? When do we as IMers take responsibility and actually help guide those people away from spending their rent money to get that fix?

    And that, to me, is the key.... as long as it hurt no one.

    Peace, Love & Prosperity (to all)
    tecHead
    Interesting questions tecHead.

    Where do/should people draw the line? That's like asking how long is a piece of string. Everyone is different.

    Should businesses/marketers deliver on their promises? Absolutely. In an ideal world that is what we would have. Only it's not ideal so more often than you'd like you get stuff that doesn't work or only half works (Microsoft Windows, Wall St bank stocks anyone?). Regulators and authorities are there to help - hence FDA, SEC etc.

    Should they charge a reasonable price? Yes, but who decides what's reasonable? Which is worse - a product/service that you sell for $1 that is 100% ineffective or a $100 item that is only 50% effective? Should all IM products sell at $10 or $100? How should it be decided? Should there be a formula or a set price? Ultimately its the user/buyer that bears the responsibility to ensure the expenditure lives up to the promised ROI whatever that might be.

    Businesses/marketers have the right to ask the market what they want for their offerings. In fact, a person/business has a duty to shareholders/owners do what they/it can to maximize profit/returns as that is one of the key objectives for an enterprise - for some it's the only one. This includes setting a price the market will bear. Competition exists so that others have the same opportunity which also means open markets set the 'fair' and 'reasonable' return for the value provided by the business/marketer.

    At the same time, the market has the right to accept or decline a particular offer.

    At any other time its a fixed/controlled market which goes against free market principles and distorts market economics.

    I don't think comparing IM courses with college degree courses whether ivy league or otherwise is a valid comparison. They're different and both have their pro's and con's. Just because you graduate with a degree doesn't mean you'll be guaranteed a high paying job or a successful career. It's what you do with it. Also - I'm willing to bet there are absolute worthless courses run by schools just as there are worthless courses sold by internet marketers.

    Also I could be wrong but last I checked - an Ivy league postgrad degree put many people into debts in the tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars for the privilege. Only in the past 2-3 years has Harvard and co. made more of an effort to help with fees so as not to unfairly exclude those with the intellect and drive but without the means. Agreed, if you're lucky enough to attend and finish, you maybe one of the fortunate who get a job in an investment bank (wait... there aren't any left) or wall st law firm or join the ranks of the stressed out highly educated underpaid physicians.

    Full disclosure: I did not attend an ivy league school.

    As an aside - for all their smarts, the bankers, wall streeters (mostly ivy leaguers) sure messed things up. But I guess you shouldn't blame them... they only worked the loopholes left lying around by power hungry politico's and asleep-at-the-wheel regulators. Now who appointed the politicians??? Oh yes, Mr and Ms Joe Public... Doh!

    There's a saying at the poker table... (I can't remember where I first heard it) there's always a sucker at the table. If you don't know who it is then guaranteed it's you. Why does this apply? Well, I believe there's always a tuition in life. Payment comes in wasted time, money and/or effort or in a word 'mistakes'. The sooner you learn, the sooner you'll get ahead.

    The reality is sometimes, in fact quite often, we all need a few lessons to get 'educated' or wise. Once we learn it, we can move on.

    (how's this for rambling???)

    Thanks for bringing it up.
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    Scary good...
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  • Profile picture of the author steve305
    Hi tecHead -

    You raise some interesting points.

    However, it seems to me, the bottom line falls to the purchaser. If they can afford a product, if they can make it work for them profitably, the decision is theirs.

    If a product costs $2,000, $3,000 or even $18,000 as Chris Everson commented . . . if it makes the customer $250,000, the cost was cheap.

    The responsibility lies with the purchaser, not the seller.

    If the price is too high, there will be no purchasers . . . the market will decide the issue.
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