A different way to treat WF newcomers?

118 replies
Quite rightly, the WF tries to protect itself (and the rest of us) from people who join simply to spam and scam. The way that this is done is by having a minimum post count requirement before people can post WSOs or make PMs.

Unfortunately, as Paul Myers' recent posts have pointed out, that doesn't seem to be much of a deterrent for idiots who are determined to game the system. Useless posts that exist only to boost post counts are still as prevalent as they always have been and there isn't really much let up in the forum's moron quotient.

How about this for a different take on legitimizing new Warrior Forum members - it would take a bit of extra programming, but shouldn't be too hard to do...

Every new member of the forum would join with no privileges at all - no WSOs, no PMs, and (crucially) no Sigs.

Each level of privilege would be earned - not by posts, but by thanks.
So, when a new member get five thanks they could then put up a sig. Ten thanks would activate PMs for them and 20 thanks would allow them to post WSOs (if they are also members of the War Room).

I acknowledge that gangs of spammers could simply thank each other, but that could be minimised by the system being programmed to only count thanks from existing members of either 6 months longevity, or members who already have 20+ tanks of their own.

The big benefit of this would be that newcomers would be encouraged to make valuable posts - and so become better WF members much faster. Spammers, of course, would rarely be bothered.

Is this workable?

Martin
#newcomers #treat
  • Profile picture of the author Sara Young
    My personal opinion is that scammers and spammers will find their way around this as well. There's a limit to how far you can go in order to try to stop them.

    IMO the most effective thing is that the forum is moderated by members and that we can report any problems. That's much harder for spammers and scammers to get around.

    Just my 2 cents....
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    • Profile picture of the author craigc1980
      Originally Posted by Sara Young View Post

      My personal opinion is that scammers and spammers will find their way around this as well. There's a limit to how far you can go in order to try to stop them.

      IMO the most effective thing is that the forum is moderated by members and that we can report any problems. That's much harder for spammers and scammers to get around.

      Just my 2 cents....
      I would definitely have to agree with sara.

      No matter what you do there will always be sneaky people trying to get around these obstacles.

      I also believe that by letting the members moderate things is doing ok so far.

      Im sure theirs still issues.

      Like someone not like someone else and report them for some stupid reason.

      Im sure it happens.

      It happened to me.

      But, no big deal.

      I didn't do anything wrong.

      Some guy just didnt like my post.

      Craig
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    I like it Martin,

    After tonight I think we need to put our heads together and figure out something that will help protect our members as well as ourselves. this seems like a good idea but I don't know how much programming work it would take everything would have to be reworked including the thanks system. the thanks button for anyone new would be disabled that would prevent them from thanking each other.

    I don't know but something needs to be done before too many more people get ripped but Paul is doing a hell of a job with exposing as He comes to knowledge of them.

    I wonder how workable this would be.
    -WD
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  • Profile picture of the author dsmpublishing
    Hi martin

    that is a great idea

    i thought when the charge came into effect for wso that would stop the problem but i have found that there is more spam than ever. I remember once a couple of months before xmas posting to the blog section on here and the five posts before me were spam they just pointed to the persons website and that was it!

    In lots of other forums you are expected to post a minimum times before you can do a sig so its got my vote

    kind regards


    sam
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Martin,

    Looks good in concept. The programming would be of unknown (to me) difficulty. The implementation would be a pain.

    The biggest problem: It's easily gameable, and would very likely add new levels of scamming to the system. Then, once people got comfortable with the idea that this produced some sort of protection, the creeps would have what amounted to an endorsement for their cons.

    You need to learn to think like an evil bastich, Martin. It may not be in your nature, though.


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  • Profile picture of the author wassim
    This is a good suggestion Martin, thanks for sharing your ideas.
    I agree with you there's lots of useless people joining WF and putting their links in their signature and start posting useless posts.

    The "Thanking" system you're suggesting seems to be a good idea, but unfortunately most people forget to thank even if the post was really useful. Most people do thank others in the replies... so if WF is going to consider your suggestion, they also have to put some kind of special icon that can clearly remind the reader to "thank" if the post was useful.

    Besides... post count is really something that you can't let go just because of spammers. You need to take post counts in consideration it's a must. It shows the contribution of users you know...

    Regards,
    Wassim
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  • Profile picture of the author AnnaHamer
    It is a good idea, but not a fair one. I find on this forum and every other forum. There are a lot of politics when it comes to giving thanks. I have seen someone say something brilliant and get no thanks, then someone with a bit more clout comes a long and says the same thing right below them and gets thanks from everyone in the thread.
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    • Profile picture of the author Gee S
      Originally Posted by AnnaHamer View Post

      It is a good idea, but not a fair one. I find on this forum and every other forum. There are a lot of politics when it comes to giving thanks. I have seen someone say something brilliant and get no thanks, then someone with a bit more clout comes a long and says the same thing right below them and gets thanks from everyone in the thread.

      I have to agree with Anna. Also with it being in place, members would be more reluctant to give out thanks to newbies, even if they deserved it. Something will eventually have to be done because I can see it getting out of hand sooner or later.

      (Oh and Anna you get a thanks for that post )

      Gee
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      • Profile picture of the author AnnaHamer
        Originally Posted by Gee Sanghera View Post

        I have to agree with Anna. Also with it being in place, members would be more reluctant to give out thanks to newbies, even if they deserved it. Something will eventually have to be done because I can see it getting out of hand sooner or later.

        (Oh and Anna you get a thanks for that post )

        Gee
        Thanks, I thought it might be a controversial opinion. I am not complaining about it; it hasn't happened to me, but I have see a lot of it.

        How many posts can a newbie get thanked for if they are here to learn and have nothing to offer yet?
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        • Profile picture of the author Nick Lotter
          I guess the Warrior Forum will always be a target for spammers, so as Sara Young says, the spammers will always be here trying to work things out.

          I like Martin.Avis' idea though, and even if it isn't 100% feasible or workable, at least he is thinking in the right direction. We have so many great minds here at Warrior Forum, I am sure if we all applied our minds we could achieve just about anything.

          I think the point is that even if you couldn't keep every single spammer out, we should at least try to make things as difficult as possible for spammers. For example, I know that no matter what security I install at home, thieves can and will be able to find a way in. But if I make my house look more difficult to break into than other houses in my neighbourhood, the thieves might go elsewhere (I hope )

          You don't need to run faster than the lion chasing you and your friend, you just need to run faster than your friend

          This may seem simple, but what about making it necessary to apply to be able to make sig files, post WSO's or send PM's? That way the moderators could check to see if the individual had enough quality posts and whether he/she is known by the community, and would have to manually approve it. It would mean a lot of work for moderators I'm sure, but hey, just throwing it out there.
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          • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
            How many posts can a newbie get thanked for if they are here to learn and have nothing to offer yet?
            There is one problem with this line of thought - just because someone is new to this forum does not mean they are new to internet marketing or business in general. I've seen some people come in here that are already successful and they share great insights in their first few posts. We should not be penalizing those people in order to keep in check the cockroaches that sneak under the door.

            Martin, I think your idea has merit but I have to agree with Paul. The more controls you put in place within the software, the more the cockroaches find new ways to get around the controls. Such is life, unfortunately.

            I think if everyone just uses a good dose of common sense along with their brains, it would go a long way towards controlling the insect life around the boards. Members need to stop being afraid to report suspicious posts. I even see quite a few that give an infraction for outright spam - that should be reported, plain and simple. Not a one of us in here will be responsible for getting an innocent person banned so stop being hesitant to report things.

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        • Profile picture of the author Fun to Write
          The problem with this idea is that there are people who are new to this forum who have lots of IM experience, or don't post a lot. Not everybody with low post counts is a complete newbie.


          Originally Posted by AnnaHamer View Post


          How many posts can a newbie get thanked for if they are here to learn and have nothing to offer yet?
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            there are people who are new to this forum who have lots of IM experience
            I agree - and that shows clearly in what they post and they get good replies.

            Those who think they are smart enough to pre-promote or blow smoke get called out rather quickly. (Of course, then another new person complains "you guys are mean":p).
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            • Profile picture of the author mmurtha
              Hey Martin,

              I think your way will raise the bar for the scammers and spammers. They will just find other ways of gamming the system as been already mentioned.


              Kay,
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              I agree - and that shows clearly in what they post and they get good replies.

              Those who think they are smart enough to pre-promote or blow smoke get called out rather quickly. (Of course, then another new person complains "you guys are mean":p).

              That's right Kay, and that's also part of the problem. I think that most of the new people that do complain are people who plan to game the system, spammers or scammers. These types are always crying the victum or how unfair things are.

              There are very few lagit new-commers that would dare to speak out on a forum when they first come into the community. I know it took many of us a while before we posted anything - things haven't changed much since.

              This is one reason I greet each new-commer when they do post, BUT I also keep an eye on them to see how active they are, how they post, etc ...

              Most of the time the gammers, spammers and acammers will slip up (rather quickly might I add) within their comments and/or actions. When they do, this is when we find out what motivates them.

              At least this has been my experience ...
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              • Profile picture of the author butters
                Wouldn't they just use a macro or something and create accounts? and just thanks themselves. Or... Just have 5 accounts, reply 5 times with something and then get the other 4 accounts to thank it.
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              • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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                • Profile picture of the author butters
                  Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                  My year or so here, observing and posting, and looking at some other forums, are gradually leading me to appreciate what a very difficult task forum management must be, and how impossible it is to come up with rules and procedures that solve problems without impacting anything else.

                  Many thanks to all the Moderators who I think do a brilliant job behind the scenes, and to member moderators as well.

                  Please excuse me if this a slight change of subject, but what (if anything) are you supposed to do with posts like this one, where someone who has evidently read something of the concept of "forum marketing" and "establishing credibility" walks in, entirely unknown, and starts prominently (large font) posting "advice" which is a combination of "very basic", "inaccurate" and "mistaken in places". Should one reply to it, report it, or just completely ignore it.
                  Reply to it, maybe he genuinely wanted to help and he got some stuff a little wrong, tell him whats wrong, then tell him what is the right thing and ask him to change it.
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                • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                  Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                  My year or so here, observing and posting, and looking at some other forums, are gradually leading me to appreciate what a very difficult task forum management must be, and how impossible it is to come up with rules and procedures that solve problems without impacting anything else.

                  Many thanks to all the Moderators who I think do a brilliant job behind the scenes, and to member moderators as well.

                  Please excuse me if this a slight change of subject, but what (if anything) are you supposed to do with posts like this one, where someone who has evidently read something of the concept of "forum marketing" and "establishing credibility" walks in, entirely unknown, and starts prominently (large font) posting "advice" which is a combination of "very basic", "inaccurate" and "mistaken in places". Should one reply to it, report it, or just completely ignore it.
                  Thank you Alexa!

                  I'm wondering the same thing as I am seeing more and more of those posts lately all over the place, however, wondering to myself whether I should just simply ignore them, give an infraction, or report to a moderator. Then wondering, how do I report something to a moderator?

                  I've been a member here for a little over 4 months, but up until just recently have not had a reason to even ponder these things!

                  MissTerraK
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                    Alexa -

                    I'd ignore that particular one - because the person isn't trying to promote some silly sig link.

                    If you see info that is clearly incorrect, nothing wrong posting that you don't agree or that you KNOW it's incorrect.

                    kay


                    Edit: More rules give an illusion of more control - but provide no protection from determined spammers and scammers. The best protection is due diligence and common sense.
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                • Profile picture of the author Susan Hope
                  Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                  My year or so here, observing and posting, and looking at some other forums, are gradually leading me to appreciate what a very difficult task forum management must be, and how impossible it is to come up with rules and procedures that solve problems without impacting anything else.

                  Many thanks to all the Moderators who I think do a brilliant job behind the scenes, and to member moderators as well.

                  Please excuse me if this a slight change of subject, but what (if anything) are you supposed to do with posts like this one, where someone who has evidently read something of the concept of "forum marketing" and "establishing credibility" walks in, entirely unknown, and starts prominently (large font) posting "advice" which is a combination of "very basic", "inaccurate" and "mistaken in places". Should one reply to it, report it, or just completely ignore it.
                  I would also reply and get a conversation going in the first instance to see how they respond...

                  Sue
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                • Profile picture of the author A Bary
                  Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                  My year or so here, observing and posting, and looking at some other forums, are gradually leading me to appreciate what a very difficult task forum management must be, and how impossible it is to come up with rules and procedures that solve problems without impacting anything else.

                  Many thanks to all the Moderators who I think do a brilliant job behind the scenes, and to member moderators as well.

                  Please excuse me if this a slight change of subject, but what (if anything) are you supposed to do with posts like this one, where someone who has evidently read something of the concept of "forum marketing" and "establishing credibility" walks in, entirely unknown, and starts prominently (large font) posting "advice" which is a combination of "very basic", "inaccurate" and "mistaken in places". Should one reply to it, report it, or just completely ignore it.

                  Thanks Alexa for highlighting this!

                  It's pathetic when someone approached a great, outstanding, and life changing community like WF with this poor mindset, following the advice of a bone head so called guru to "establishing credibility).

                  If the person posted the post you mentioned made himself a favor and browse the forum a little, he/she will absorb literally "years" of experience and advice from great article marketers and professionals, and will know how he/she made themselves a joke posting such an advice...

                  a little off topic, but I have to admit that after one year on this forum, I have learned much much more than what I learned before joining it in 3 years...

                  Once people realize what this community truly means, we will see less posts like this one.
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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                Originally Posted by mmurtha View Post

                Hey Martin,

                There are very few lagit new-commers that would dare to speak out on a forum when they first come into the community. I know it took many of us a while before we posted anything - things haven't changed much since.
                Of course then you have idiots like me who come in here with both guns
                blazing thinking he knows everything about everything.

                I've had to eat a lot of humble pie in my 3 years here when I realized that
                in comparison to many people here, you could wrap up my smarts in a
                thimble.

                Point is, there is no fool proof way to know if somebody is coming here to
                scam members or not.

                Some people are just so full of themselves that they think they know it all.

                If they're decent people, they eventually realize that they have a lot to
                learn.
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                • Profile picture of the author mmurtha
                  Well Steven,


                  Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                  Of course then you have idiots like me who come in here with both guns
                  blazing thinking he knows everything about everything.

                  I've had to eat a lot of humble pie in my 3 years here when I realized that
                  in comparison to many people here, you could wrap up my smarts in a
                  thimble.

                  Point is, there is no fool proof way to know if somebody is coming here to
                  scam members or not.

                  Some people are just so full of themselves that they think they know it all.

                  If they're decent people, they eventually realize that they have a lot to
                  learn.

                  You are an acception to the rule kid!

                  Lol I was talking about the avaerage person or statisics.
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                  • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                    Steven,

                    Heck a water blaster gun would do it for me! Do you know what kind of damage that does to one's hair and make-up?:p LOL!

                    MissTerraK
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                  • Profile picture of the author trevor75
                    Its a good idea to have some sort of merit system, but if we'v learned anything through history, its that if somebody wants something bad enough, and they are blocked from doing it...they always find a way around this no matter what. This applies to everything in life too, not just criminal spammers.
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                    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                      Please excuse me if this a slight change of subject, but what (if anything) are you supposed to do with posts like this one, where someone who has evidently read something of the concept of "forum marketing" and "establishing credibility" walks in, entirely unknown, and starts prominently (large font) posting "advice" which is a combination of "very basic", "inaccurate" and "mistaken in places". Should one reply to it, report it, or just completely ignore it.
                      Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                      Thank you Alexa!

                      I'm wondering the same thing as I am seeing more and more of those posts lately all over the place, however, wondering to myself whether I should just simply ignore them, give an infraction, or report to a moderator. Then wondering, how do I report something to a moderator?

                      I've been a member here for a little over 4 months, but up until just recently have not had a reason to even ponder these things!

                      MissTerraK
                      After awhile, you start getting a sense about whether the poster is just misguided or doing an article dump and run. Even if the person has good intentions, a post like this shows they've spent no real time actually reading the forum before posting such an article.

                      In this case, I'd report it, for two reasons...

                      1. Maybe I'm just being hypersensitive on a given day, or the lack of real information trips my trigger. Before blazing away, I'll let someone with more authority take a look at it. If it should stay, it stays. If it should go, it's gone without all the drama about newbies being picked on. Which leads to...

                      2. If the article simply disappears, they may get the idea and either disappear or ask what they did wrong. At that point, you can start a real conversation - maybe. If they get a warning from the powers that be, it will likely mean more than a lecture from "just another member"...

                      As for not selling anything in the sig, they missing word is 'yet'...

                      If they can get 10, 20, 50, 100 posts that fly under the radar, they can come back, edit a sig file, and have however many links from an authority site. Plus whatever attention they can grab when people run across those older threads. It's a more subtle form of sneaky...
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                      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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                        • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
                          Thanks to everyone for expressing their views.

                          I must admit that for a while there I thought Alexa was referrring to me, but I think I've got the right end of that particular stick now!

                          It seems to me that the consensus of opinion is that my proposed system is impractical because no matter what we try to do the undesireables will find a way to game it. I tend to agree with that, but at the same time find it rather a defeatist attitude.

                          Certainly my proposal may be too simplistic, but it was an exercise in thinking of a relatively easy to set up method that would be harder to game than the even more simplistic system we currently use.

                          Rather than simply bow down to 'the inevitable' that there are bad people out there, why don't we fight back a little more?

                          As to the comments that 'thanks' are not given out fairly, I completely disagree. I like to think I'm an equal opportunity thanker! If some so-called 'senior' people on this forum get more thanks than others it is because they contribute more useful posts.

                          @Harvey: Tanks for the memory.

                          Martin
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                          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                            Martin,

                            It's not defeatist. Just recognizing reality. That doesn't mean we accept the creeps' behavior, just that we take a different approach to dealing with them.

                            I've found that the best approach is to teach people what to look for. That does a number of useful things. It helps them police the forum better. It prepares them to avoid being suckered in by scams. It gives them a better understanding of why the moderators do certain things that wouldn't otherwise make sense. It involves them actively in maintaining the integrity of the group. And it discourages the creeps.

                            The better people understand the way things work, the less need there is for rules and technical safeguards.


                            Paul
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                          • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                            Originally Posted by Harvey.Segal View Post

                            Dennis, I proposed a similar idea a while back. I suggested a $1.00 fee paid from a Paypal account. One problem of course is that not everyone has a Paypal account.
                            Well, I guess it didn't fly then or now, but that doesn't mean we aren't both geniuses.

                            Originally Posted by Martin.Avis View Post

                            Thanks to everyone for expressing their views.
                            Can't blame you for trying, Martin, it's appreciated.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Neil V
                    I joined in October and consider myself new to this forum.

                    I do not think that new warrior members should be penalized for posting signature links, WSO;s etc based on the bad behavior of the spammers and people who try to game the system.

                    In any society, business, social group, tribe, system, forum, etc there are always going to be a few who behave badly. We can find this out and penalize them.

                    But penalizing all new members with difficult standards because of a few seems to me against the spirit of why this forum was set up in the first place.

                    But then again i am new and i probably do not really know how this has impacted the quality of this forum.
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          • Profile picture of the author ppbiz
            Originally Posted by Fun to Write View Post

            The problem with this idea is that there are people who are new to this forum who have lots of IM experience, or don't post a lot. Not everybody with low post counts is a complete newbie.
            This is true- one should never assume that a low post count = a lack of experience. Some people are busy running a business and don't have time to rack up a high post count. They simply prefer to think that people will judge them on the quality of their posts NOT the quantity. Any idiot can sit there all day and say "Great Idea" 200 times. So maybe your 'Thanks' idea is a great one...
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        • Profile picture of the author Dawn R
          I agree Sara, I am a newbie here with not much to offer and can't imagine what I could add that would be helpful enough to be thanked by the more experienced warriors here. I think those of us who are serious about learning and building a good reputation here, (as well as elsewhere on the web), know enough not to include a signature link in our initial posts. It just seems suspicious.
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      • Profile picture of the author JEL0221
        Originally Posted by Gee Sanghera View Post

        I have to agree with Anna. Also with it being in place, members would be more reluctant to give out thanks to newbies, even if they deserved it. Something will eventually have to be done because I can see it getting out of hand sooner or later.

        (Oh and Anna you get a thanks for that post )

        Gee
        I also have to agree with this. I see over and over just because a member has a large number of posts, even if they don't contribute to a thread as much as someone lesser known or with lower post count, will get thanked by just about everyone in the thread.

        Now don't take this as me complaining that I don't get a lot of "thanks" for contributions. I essentially don't care too much as I just enjoy participating in forum discussion. However, if the criteria for me to send PM's required a certain number of "thanks" then I would be concerned(I don't care too much about signatures because I do not use them) and the fact that a lot of the "thanks" being political would present a major problem.
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
      Originally Posted by AnnaHamer View Post

      It is a good idea, but not a fair one. I find on this forum and every other forum. There are a lot of politics when it comes to giving thanks. I have seen someone say something brilliant and get no thanks, then someone with a bit more clout comes a long and says the same thing right below them and gets thanks from everyone in the thread.
      I have noticed this as well in a lot of threads.
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by AnnaHamer View Post

      It is a good idea, but not a fair one. I find on this forum and every other forum. There are a lot of politics when it comes to giving thanks. I have seen someone say something brilliant and get no thanks, then someone with a bit more clout comes a long and says the same thing right below them and gets thanks from everyone in the thread.
      Yes I have to concur with this observation. I have also seen brilliant diatribe from people and they dont even get one Thanks !! And then another member comes along with a one sentence Post saying how they agree with the OP of the Thread and they get a Thanks from the OP for agreeing with him !!

      Too much politics IMHO to implement this system !!
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      Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)

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  • Profile picture of the author Odhinn
    I like this idea, but I don't think it's feasible. At some point, you're going to have to accept some level of the spam and scam types, because any site that has become as large and as well-known as this one is going to have some troubles with this kind of activity.

    What I think needs to change first is that new members should only be able to post in the main forum. There are so many people with one post, or five in the buy and sell links forum that it's ridiculous. That would be a much better resource if some controls were put in place.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jdnuay
    I am a newbie and agree with Anna, thanks do not come easy.
    JD
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  • Profile picture of the author DogScout
    Good Idea...BUT... no matter what you do, they will find a way around it. That is what they do best. The energy they expend doing this if put to IM or real income producing would earn them millions.

    They are as stupid as they are relentless
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by DogScout View Post

      Good Idea...BUT... no matter what you do, they will find a way around it. That is what they do best. The energy they expend doing this if put to IM or real income producing would earn them millions.

      They are as stupid as they are relentless
      You are on the same wave length as I am. The spammers are extremely intelligent to continue finding ways around the rules and if they only spent that intelligence and time & effort into they're IM, they'd be extremely successful.

      Every person has blind spots regarding themselves! Theirs' is not using their intelligence to become that successful IM, but are only tarnishing their reputations in the field!:rolleyes:

      And so on goes the question, Why?:confused::confused::confused:

      MissTerraK
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      • Profile picture of the author Fun to Write
        There is no honor amongst thieves, MissTerraK.

        It's all about MONEY and GREED for them.


        Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post


        Every person has blind spots regarding themselves! Theirs' is not using their intelligence to become that successful IM, but are only tarnishing their reputations in the field!:rolleyes:

        And so on goes the question, Why?:confused::confused::confused:

        MissTerraK
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        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
          Originally Posted by Fun to Write View Post

          There is no honor amongst thieves, MissTerraK.

          It's all about MONEY and GREED for them.
          That's a crying shame too, true as it may be! With that kind of mind , they could be well respected members of the IM community with successful businesses. That would take care of the MONEY part. Unfortunately, there is no cure for GREED!

          MissTerraK
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  • Profile picture of the author King Shiloh
    Banned
    If there are no arms, there won't be armed robbers. I think there are enough rules here already to put things under control.

    There is no PERFECT human system anywhere in the world. Every coin has two sides - head and tail. The more you think of the head, the more someone else thinks of the tail.

    I don't think that common sense is still common. I would suggest that you just look before you leap. Ask yourself certain logical questions before you embrace an offer - if it sounds too good to be true, then it's not (really) true.

    Also, some people fall prey to the spammers/scammers, especially in WSO section because of greed - "Make $10,000 in 24 hours - $7 only!" bla bla bla. Why not ask yourself, "Why is this guy selling this idea that can make him such huge money...at such a ridiculously low price?
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Shiloh,
      I think there are enough rules here already to put things under control.
      Amen, brother. More than we need, truth be told.

      Rules create lawyers. Lawyers beget weasels. And from there, we get spammers and the rest.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author A Bary
        Well, I appreciate your idea Martin, but in my opinion, it has few drawbacks:

        1-to earn a thanks, you shall contribute with useful posts/opinions/tips, so, this will be nearly impossible to earn for a newbie who just entered the forum to learn...

        2-People will start begging across the thread for "thanks", and you'll commonly see "if you find this post useful, don't forget to hit the thanks button" a behavior I don't like to see across the forum

        3-This will never stop spammers, maybe you'll soon found some WF members selling thanks on DP or other abused places...

        4-"Thanks" feature is a very unique feature of the WF, and it shall be kept natural as long as possible, it's something I use to represent gratitude for good content, not to reward the poster.. it's much better as it is right now...

        Just my 2 cents...
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Actually, the comparison between this form of scammer/spammer and cockroaches, while it is highly unflattering to cockroaches, it is appropriate. And both should be treated the same...

        Put in whatever reasonable means you can to keep them out in the first place, and stomp on the ones that manage to get in anyway.

        I know I've been more aggressive lately in reporting posts with null content, and posts that, while they might make some sense out of context, make no sense in context.
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      • Profile picture of the author VegasVince
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Shiloh,Amen, brother. More than we need, truth be told.

        Rules create lawyers. Lawyers beget weasels. And from there, we get spammers and the rest.


        Paul


        I remember always taking the position that the Warrior Forum would take care of itself...and if "it aint broke....don't fix it."

        Maybe I was wrong.

        I've been around this joint long enough to remember a time when guys like Paul Myers spent most of their time sharing wisdom around here.

        Flash forward 3 years....and the Zen Master spends most of his time trying to warn fellow Warriors about the bad apples that have jumped into bed with us en masse.

        And that's kind of sad I think.

        Because when great Warriors are reduced to patrol duty.......we all lose.

        I remember a time when it wasn't that way.


        xxx Vegas Vince
        Killing Me Softly....
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    • Profile picture of the author PMB
      Originally Posted by King Shiloh View Post

      If there are no arms, there won't be armed robbers. I think there are enough rules here already to put things under control.

      There is no PERFECT human system anywhere in the world. Every coin has two sides - head and tail. The more you think of the head, the more someone else thinks of the tail.

      I don't think that common sense is still common. I would suggest that you just look before you leap. Ask yourself certain logical questions before you embrace an offer - if it sounds too good to be true, then it's not (really) true.

      Also, some people fall prey to the spammers/scammers, especially in WSO section because of greed - "Make $10,000 in 24 hours - $7 only!" bla bla bla. Why not ask yourself, "Why is this guy selling this idea that can make him such huge money...at such a ridiculously low price?
      I tend to agree with this line of thought. As a relative newcomer to both IM and the Warrior Forum i think it is important to use wisdom. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of WSOs. What I have found is that the members are generally faithful to provide fair reviews of products and services that I can read before I would even think of committing money. I personally think some get catch up in greed and the desire to get rich quick and others are possibly neglecting the true benefit of a forum like this. IMHO I think there are enough rules in place. If people are truly engage and a part of the community they will pick up the etiquette. If not they will be exposed as having ideals and motives that are disingenuous to the heart of the community at large. People are good at policing themselves. There will always be people who try to game the system. But the should the focus really be on catching cheaters/scammers/coachroaches or should it be on continuing to provide an enriching experience for those who desire to learn, grow and succeed? I myself am in favor of success.

      Continued Success,

      PMB
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
    Not a bad way to do it. Good thinking. I'm sure there are many ways including making them pull out a credit card.

    As others have said, there is no 100% sure fire way to stop the garbage but one can cut it down a lot. The member moderation really works wonders for example. It frees the mods to concentrate on critical issues and blatant spam is killed by members quickly.
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  • Profile picture of the author theemperor
    You could have a thanks system that works like Google PageRank.

    I.e. the thanks is weighted based on who gives it to you. A newbie thanking you could be worth near zero, whereas someone who themselves has a lot of thanks themselves has a higher rating.

    Problem is it is easy to get thanked - I got the most thanks from a post where I just sent a link to someone elses blog. Where as my own original ideas were thanked less :-( I think that tells me something!
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  • Profile picture of the author King Shiloh
    Banned
    All we need here is a little bit of self discipline, self control, humility, contentment and sensitivity.

    Always make sure that you know what you are doing because you can't deceive anybody until you deceive yourself - lack of self discipline.

    Also, before you allow yourself to be scammed you will first of all receive the message of the scammer or receive the scammer's personality- lack of sensitivity.
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  • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
    Originally Posted by Martin.Avis View Post

    or members who already have 20+ tanks of their own.
    Martin

    You've misunderstood the term 'Warrior' forum.

    Harvey
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  • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
    change the rules, they will bring out an ebook in the wso section, beating the new rules - tips tricks , there would be thanks for hire in the hire section at a save 50% now price.
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  • Profile picture of the author VilPietersen@
    Ye, a really good idea, I really like the fact that it should be about thanks that people give, but I think that they should also moderate unique IP thank you's. Because two scamming mates could just post posts and thank each other to up their rank.

    I do think that your earn as you post strategy is a good idea though!!

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    • Profile picture of the author butters
      Originally Posted by VilPietersen@ View Post

      Ye, a really good idea, I really like the fact that it should be about thanks that people give, but I think that they should also moderate unique IP thank you's. Because two scamming mates could just post posts and thank each other to up their rank.

      I do think that your earn as you post strategy is a good idea though!!

      It's not hard to change your IP...
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      • Profile picture of the author VilPietersen@
        Originally Posted by butters View Post

        It's not hard to change your IP...
        Ye alright, you know what I mean, unique user thank yous then.

        You could also make it so new users couldn't say thanks?
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        • Profile picture of the author butters
          Originally Posted by VilPietersen@ View Post

          Ye alright, you know what I mean, unique user thank yous then.

          You could also make it so new users couldn't say thanks?
          Now that would be making it all complicated, how long do they have to wait before they can say thankyou. Then there is going to be another problem, the only way it can be done is the way it is being done. The community has to report scammers and mods have to watch out for them.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Martin, there are 2 types of con persons.

      Stupid ones
      Smart ones

      The stupid ones are pretty easy to spot.

      It's the smart ones that we have to worry about because they're almost
      impossible to catch until it's too late.

      If you look back at recent Warrior Forum history, just since I've been here,
      which is now a little over 3 years, we've had senior members here taken in
      by these cons. I won't mention any names but if you were here about 2
      years ago, you know who I am talking about.

      There is never going to be any kind of system that is going to keep the
      scum out...no matter how hard you try.

      The best we can hope for is to use a little intelligence.

      This little tip is for new folks and it's coming from somebody who was
      taken in by a con. I freely admit it.

      If anybody ever PMs you and offers you mentoring, coaching or anything
      like that and then tries to sucker you into paying them, ask for their real
      name and then go to Google to do a search.

      You will find 1 of 3 things.

      1. They are legit. There are tons of glowing testimonials all over and they
      have a clear track record a mile long. Ironically, these people will NEVER
      PM you to offer help at a cost because they don't need the business. If
      they offer for free (many will do because they're so giving) that's different.
      But once money is asked for...beware.

      2. You find nothing about them at all...as if they don't even exist. You
      need to be careful of these people because you don't know how it's going
      to go, one way or the other. When it doubt...stay clear.

      3. You will find tons of dirt. Had I done this with the person who contacted
      me, I would have never gotten into the mess I did.

      It takes very little time to research somebody. And if they refuse to give
      you their real name, giving some excuse like, "I want to stay anonymous"
      that is a REAL cue to run in the other direction.

      Please be careful when dealing with anybody one on one here.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jared Alberghini
    I think the WF should remove the thanks feature and implement a cookie system
    so when someone is thanked, the mods just need to bake, wrap, and ship
    the thankee a freshly baked cookie.

    New and old members will just need to add their physical address,
    and the mods just need to verify everyone's address is correct.

    This could work well with fighting spammers/scammers also,
    if you spam/scam you will receive a gift from:

    poopsenders - the ULTIMATE gag gift - SWEET revenge at its finest



    P.S. Harvey, I have 20+ tanks... do I get a cookie?

    Signature

    P.S.

    Join The Future: Telekinetic Marketing

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    • Profile picture of the author Asher
      Originally Posted by Jared Alberghini View Post


      P.S. Harvey, I have 20+ tanks... do I get a cookie?
      Dang it, you beat me to the punch.

      Nice to see you around again, Jared =)

      Asher
      Signature
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    • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
      Originally Posted by Jared Alberghini View Post

      I think the WF should remove the thanks feature and implement a cookie system so when someone is thanked, the mods just need to bake, wrap, and shipthe thankee a freshly baked cookie.

      New and old members will just need to add their physical address,
      and the mods just need to verify everyone's address is correct.
      Oh, great. Another forum suggestion that creates a ton of work for the moderators. And you -- the person who doesn't have to do any of the work -- used the word "just" two times in regards to this gigantic undertaking. That's like saying, "Jared's mother just spent 48 hours of hard labor trying to give birth to him."

      Some people's children.

      Cheers,
      Becky

      P.S. Although if Allen does implement the cookie system, I'll have chocolate chip. And milk too, please.
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  • Profile picture of the author Asher
    Originally Posted by Martin.Avis View Post

    I acknowledge that gangs of spammers could simply thank each other, but that could be minimised by the system being programmed to only count thanks from existing members of either 6 months longevity, or members who already have 20+ tanks of their own.
    I'd listen to anyone who has just 5 tanks.

    Asher
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Martin.Avis View Post

    there isn't really much let up in the forum's moron quotient.
    I think a lot of people forget that the moron quotient here is shockingly low. We get used to talking amongst ourselves, and then a moron shows up every day or two, and we're horrified that such stupid people are on our forum.

    Look at how many people are browsing the forum right now. There are thousands. And out of all those thousands, if you pick any given hour at random, there will be - on the average - one moron post. Out of all those thousands. Dozens, hundreds of posts are made. Smart ones. Well-reasoned ones. Thought-provoking ones.

    But one jerk decides to promote their article-writing site, and we all say "this place is so full of morons!"

    No it's not. It's full of smart, professional people. That's why the moron is so easy to spot.

    And I think it's a massive mistake to forget that the system we've got has produced the community we've got.
    Signature
    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author lisag
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      I think a lot of people forget that the moron quotient here is shockingly low. We get used to talking amongst ourselves, and then a moron shows up every day or two, and we're horrified that such stupid people are on our forum.

      Look at how many people are browsing the forum right now. There are thousands. And out of all those thousands, if you pick any given hour at random, there will be - on the average - one moron post. Out of all those thousands. Dozens, hundreds of posts are made. Smart ones. Well-reasoned ones. Thought-provoking ones.

      But one jerk decides to promote their article-writing site, and we all say "this place is so full of morons!"

      No it's not. It's full of smart, professional people. That's why the moron is so easy to spot.

      And I think it's a massive mistake to forget that the system we've got has produced the community we've got.
      As usual, you have proven yourself to be smarter than you look :-)
      Excellent observation on your part, and true as well.
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      -- Lisa G

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  • Profile picture of the author Joe118
    Originally Posted by Martin.Avis View Post

    How about this for a different take on legitimizing new Warrior Forum members - it would take a bit of extra programming, but shouldn't be too hard to do...

    Every new member of the forum would join with no privileges at all - no WSOs, no PMs, and (crucially) no Sigs.

    Each level of privilege would be earned - not by posts, but by thanks.
    So, when a new member get five thanks they could then put up a sig. Ten thanks would activate PMs for them and 20 thanks would allow them to post WSOs (if they are also members of the War Room).
    Is this workable?

    Martin
    Martin

    Jeremy Kelsall proposed something similar in the context of improving the WSO section. As you point out above, and people also pointed out when I posted a paraphrase of Jeremy's proposal, every system can be gamed.

    There's a point of diminishing returns. If your WSO gets negative reviews, that's enough to damage it irrepareably and also to brand you as a scammer (not you personally! I'm speaking in the general YOU). Social reputation is probably sufficient to weed out the chaf.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lee MacRae
      There is an interesting [although more serious] parallel going on today when you want to fly. All the decent folks have to do all the work or up give up their freedoms because of somebody who wants to create havoc [or death in the other case]. No matter how hard you try, someone is always going to find a way around your roadblocks by stuffing something up their butt of behind their private parts...and now all we have to do is stand there while someone looks at us nearly naked! If you think I'm going to drop my shorts when I sign in so Allen can check me over...well...on second thought... please have the ladies do it so at least I can get some enjoyment out of all the efforts!
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    I liked the idea at first, but the more I thought about it the less I thought it would work.

    Say I'm a spammer/scammer and I need to get my thanks up...I could easily post a download link to a free ebook (even one I stole) and rack up the thanks. Or I could go swipe a few marketing tips from a blog or website and reword them a little, post them, and bingo, instant thanks. It would just be too easy to scam for thanks, and after doing so they'd have more credibility than they deserved.

    If there is a need for something different, here's an idea I had, although there's probably something wrong with it, too. How about charging newcomers a nominal fee, say $1.00, to join the main forum, and that has to be paid by credit card. That way people would have to give their real name or their real business name, and anyone caught scamming/spamming would be banned for life. Since they'd have to use their real name to get back in, it would make it much tougher to rejoin under another name.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ben Roy
    You're thinking down the right path, but maybe just a little too focused on the 'thanks' portion. You see a lot of sites now have some kind of 'karma', which is a combined score from a number of different factors. That would probably be the best way to do this.

    You could count karma for things like being thanked, having highly rated threads, having threads with lots of views/posts, etc. Of course you'd get huge negative karma from people reporting posts of yours, etc.

    Then you just need to set a karma threshold for each privilege and off you go.
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  • Profile picture of the author lisag
    Maybe all we need is an ignore button. You click ignore and his or her (usually HIS :-) messages fall off your radar screen.

    Maybe we all get an ignore counter under our name that shows how many people have us on ignore. When you see someone with a big number, you might click ignore as a preemptive move. Once somone's ignore button reaches somewhere in the triple digits, they're banned.

    Even with all the politics that goes on, it would be difficult to talk a hundred members into ignoring someone who actually did no harm, I would think.
    Signature

    -- Lisa G

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    • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      If there is a need for something different, here's an idea I had, although there's probably something wrong with it, too. How about charging newcomers a nominal fee, say $1.00, to join the main forum, and that has to be paid by credit card. That way people would have to give their real name or their real business name, and anyone caught scamming/spamming would be banned for life. Since they'd have to use their real name to get back in, it would make it much tougher to rejoin under another name.
      Dennis

      I proposed a similar idea a while back.

      I suggested a $1.00 fee paid from a Paypal account.

      The reason being that people generally are restricted to
      just one Paypal account so this could be a unique
      reference held on file and checked if a banned member
      tries to register again.

      You could even refund the registration fee - making it
      free to join - it just requires the capture of your
      Paypal address.

      One problem of course is that not everyone has a Paypal
      account.

      Harvey


      .
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  • Profile picture of the author kevinw1
    I like Lisa G's "ignore" button idea. A throwback to Usenet - it's so satisfying when you never have to see the messages from the annoying/creepy/moronic/spammy poster again.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Kevin,
      I like Lisa G's "ignore" button idea. A throwback to Usenet - it's so satisfying when you never have to see the messages from the annoying/creepy/moronic/spammy poster again.
      It's available. Look in the user control panel for "Edit Ignore List."

      Very similar to the killfile in newsreaders.


      Paul
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      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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      • Profile picture of the author kevinw1
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Kevin,It's available. Look in the user control panel for "Edit Ignore List." Very similar to the killfile in newsreaders. Paul
        Learn something new every day - I didn't know this existed. Thanks Paul! It would be even more convenient to have an ignore button right on the post, though.
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  • Profile picture of the author the french newbie
    Hi!

    I just want to let you know how I feel about this topic, being a newbie myself and not having english as my primary langage...

    First of all, I think that this forum is the best with regards to valuable content (I had a look at few other ones but didn't feel the same quality level...) For the records, I never saw something really stupid being posted on the warrior forum.

    As a newbie, I often feel intimidated by other warriors postings that seems to be so knowledgeable in IM compare to me. I often stop myself to write something or ask a question because I always think that my concern is not going to bring anything to anyone because of my lack of experience. I often end up sending a pm because I'm too shy! The language barrier is always on my mind as well. The difficulty level that I have to talk about specialized topics in a foreign language ask me greater efforts as well.

    But I know that those are my own issues and I'm working on them... For instance, it's taking me a great deal of courage to write this post right now but I'm taking the plunge! :p I have to say though that I never saw a lack of respect in the warriors postings. I saw few bad words here and there but nothing to be offended about...

    So to comeback to the main topic, I think it would be great to do something about unlegetimate postings if the majority feels that there's a problem but I'd like if we could find a way to make it not too difficult for newbies like me that might have a lack of self-confidence.

    Thanks everyone for your time!


    Audray (the french newbie)
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    • Profile picture of the author lisag
      Originally Posted by the french newbie View Post

      Hi!

      I just want to let you know how I feel about this topic, being a newbie myself and not having English as my primary langage...

      As a newbie, I often feel intimidated by other warriors postings that seems to be so knowledgeable in IM compare to me. I often stop myself to write something or ask a question because I always think that my concern is not going to bring anything to anyone because of my lack of experience. I often end up sending a pm because I'm too shy! The language barrier is always on my mind as well. The difficulty level that I have to talk about specialized topics in a foreign language ask me greater efforts as well.
      Your English is much better than my French, and as good or better as most people's here :-)
      Your concern about your lack of experience is holding you back from learning. Lose it!

      Helping inexperienced people become successful is one of the basic tenants of this forum. Don't shortchange yourself by being afraid to participate and ask questions.

      PM'ing someone deprives everyone else of the knowledge that you yourself gain when you get the answer.

      The main point of this thread is focused at scammers and time wasters who show up periodically to take advantage of our collective kindness. It's not pointed at legitimate newbies like you.

      We're a big family with a lot to share. Take advantage of it and soon you'll be answering questions as well as asking them.

      Good luck and I hope you make a lot of money!

      Lisa
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      • Profile picture of the author the french newbie
        Thanks a lot Lisa for your kind words....It is really appreciated!


        Audray
        Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author josefnew
    Hi, as much as I would have loved to support Martin's suggestion on the points systems, I seriously doubt its feasibility. Lets take a simple example here, this particular thread we are discussing on now " A different way to treat WF newcomers?" already has an activity level of about 1000, checking through I discovered only about 50 thanks, I hope you are getting my point. The fact is that the person who started the thread could not possible thank everyone that has posted a response and every reader would hardly be interested in thanking a lot of people either. So, I believe we should thank Martin for the suggestion, and put our heads together to finding a lasting solution.
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    • Profile picture of the author Hanz
      One thing I find hilarious are the newbies with sigs about how to make money. Yet these same people are asking around on the forum on how to make money.:confused:
      Disable sig links to the newbies I say. LOL
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  • Profile picture of the author DeltaGammaAlpha
    is this why i see no "join group" link in the social groups? It is my first day on here.
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  • Profile picture of the author HockeyDad
    Hello...

    I am new to the forum, my ask is a bit off topic to your discussion but I created a thread and I just went back to see if anyone responded and it is gone. Before you ask....no I was not trying to sell or promote a product simply looking to make a proposition with someone interested in an exchange. Any way why would my thread be no longer there? I never received an e-mail stating there was an issue with what I wrote.

    PS... as for your topic, as a new member I would have no issue sending out thanks for valuable insight or feedback and earn my privileges. Just my 2 cents

    Thanks in advance for your help
    Dave
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    • Profile picture of the author Istvan Horvath
      Originally Posted by HockeyDad View Post

      simply looking to make a proposition with someone interested in an exchange.
      Maybe you posted it in the wrong place.

      Most newcomers don't realize there are MANY other forums (sections) beside the "main discussion".

      Like this, for example:
      Warrior Reciprocal Links - Buy - Sell - Swap!
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      • Profile picture of the author HockeyDad
        Thanks for your responses guys makes sense.. As for the location I had posted it in Off topics and It wasn't a commercial exchange either.. I was simply asking for help in exchange for a testimonial. Kind of let me try your step by step product and work with me and I will provide a valid testimonial.. a little more then that but you get the gist.

        Dave
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Dave,
          I was simply asking for help in exchange for a testimonial. Kind of let me try your step by step product and work with me and I will provide a valid testimonial.. a little more then that but you get the gist.
          Ah. Yes. That would get deleted anywhere on the forum.

          I'll leave it to you to consider how it might be perceived, and what would happen if that sort of post were allowed.


          Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Istvan Horvath
          Originally Posted by HockeyDad View Post

          I was simply asking for help in exchange for a testimonial. Kind of let me try your step by step product and work with me and I will provide a valid testimonial..
          Usually, it goes the other way around: product creators offer a limited number of free copies (access - whatever the product is) in exchange for testimonials.

          If you are asking for it (or anybody else for that matter)... sounds like looking for free "review" copies, which lately became the subject of jokes around here.
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          • Profile picture of the author TheEnthusiast
            Banned
            [DELETED]
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              To the new folks here questioning why their stuff is deleted, take this
              advice for what it's worth to you.

              Stuff gets deleted...shrug it off and move on.

              You will save yourself a lot of gray hairs, aggravation and elevated blood
              pressure if you do.

              It isn't worth even giving a second thought to it because ultimately, there
              isn't one thing you can do about it.

              Like I said...take this advice for what it's worth to you.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Dave,
      I never received an e-mail stating there was an issue with what I wrote.
      And you probably never will. There isn't enough time in the day to notify everyone who has a post deleted about the whys and wherefores. Not even counting the number who would argue the point.

      If it was any kind of commercial exchange, it doesn't belong in this section.


      Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author King Shiloh
      Banned
      Originally Posted by HockeyDad View Post

      Hello...

      I am new to the forum, my ask is a bit off topic to your discussion but I created a thread and I just went back to see if anyone responded and it is gone. Before you ask....no I was not trying to sell or promote a product simply looking to make a proposition with someone interested in an exchange. Any way why would my thread be no longer there? I never received an e-mail stating there was an issue with what I wrote.

      PS... as for your topic, as a new member I would have no issue sending out thanks for valuable insight or feedback and earn my privileges. Just my 2 cents

      Thanks in advance for your help
      Dave
      Maybe someone saw your post as spam and reported it to the moderator.
      I think you should have established credibility before asking for help or making an offer. You know we are total strangers here.
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      • Profile picture of the author HockeyDad
        Good point King I will keep that in mind

        Dave
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        • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
          Originally Posted by the french newbie View Post

          Hi!

          I just want to let you know how I feel about this topic, being a newbie myself and not having english as my primary langage...

          As a newbie, I often feel intimidated by other warriors postings that seems to be so knowledgeable in IM compare to me.
          (the french newbie)
          Audray, your English is quite good, so have no fears about that. I understand the feeling of being intimidated by more experienced users, that's not uncommon. As you read and get a feel for the more prominent members that feeling will fade away. The guys with hundreds or thousands of posts are some of the best people around. If anything, it would probably be a few newbies that bring bad habits from other less moderated forums that would be rude or disrespectful, not the guys who have been here long.

          Originally Posted by HockeyDad View Post

          I am new to the forum, my ask is a bit off topic to your discussion but I created a thread and I just went back to see if anyone responded and it is gone.
          Dave, keep in mind there are often thousands of people browsing the forum at once. A thread can fall off the first page in a hurry. Maybe it wasn't deleted, but just got buried by other new threads?
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          • Profile picture of the author the french newbie
            Hi Dennis!

            Thanks for your feedback!


            Audray
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  • Profile picture of the author pearsonbrown
    'There isn't enough time in the day to notify everyone who has a post deleted about the whys and wherefores. Not even counting the number who would argue the point.'

    As a newbie moderator in the Reviews section, I started out by sending explanations by PM. I still do a bit but only for newbies who don't seem to have read the rules.

    One 'experienced' Warrior sent me this when I deleted one of his posts:


    Listen, learn to read English, or better yet, learn how to do "interpersonal skills and managing people" and you will learn how to read people rather than being bias all the time and having this attitude that you're better than others when you're clearly not!

    And I'm not the only one with this point of view, many others are sick and tired of you and being over judgmental.

    Do something better with your life, rather than telling people what to do.


    Now do you see why we don't send PMs?

    Pearson
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  • Profile picture of the author Seolinkbuilder
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
      Originally Posted by Seolinkbuilder View Post

      you are right guys
      Really? Which guys, specifically, do you think are right? And why do you agree with them?

      I'll anxiously await your answer.
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      • Profile picture of the author lisag
        Originally Posted by R Hagel View Post

        Really? Which guys, specifically, do you think are right? And why do you agree with them?

        I'll anxiously await your answer.
        Looks like his star has already gone supernova. The post is gone :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author HockeyDad
    Thanks for the advise by all... I will put it to good use. Just to advise, I was not angry it was deleted but more curious as to why so I do not make the same mistake. And I wasn't looking for a freebee, simply someone that would take the time to work with me in exchange for a testimonial for their site.

    Again thanks for the feedback - it is all useful

    Take care and look forward to speaking with you again,
    Dave
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  • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
    I think they should put a triangle in the left hand corner . Members could then moderate to some extent themselves and report spam.

    I hate spam.... now those little sausages they can in Vienna ... mmmmmmmmmm
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  • Profile picture of the author mikemcmillan
    I tend to think the way it's set up now is fine. Not to say that there aren't cockroaches crawling through the cracks periodically, but compared to other forums the WF has a much, much classier user base in terms of politeness, knowledge and a sense of community among its members.

    The WSO forum is no different than marketing elsewhere. There's good and bad--but mostly good, and even what I consider bad, well--I believe most offers are well intentioned at least.

    A little common sense goes a long way. There are people I would buy WSOs from based on their reputation alone. You can always look to see the relative number of thanks a Warrior has in relation to their total posts for at least some indication of the contributions they make to the community.

    True, there are spam-headed posting maggots who create 50 five word posts in a week just so they can run WSOs. But everyone has the "ask for a refund" option. Use it, but don't abuse it. The fact that so many people have swarmed in to run WSOs here is because the WF platform is a great place to interact, and yes--to sell stuff.

    My only real complaint is about the "Special" in the phrase Warrior Special Offer. There are A LOT of people who throw something up there and don't even have a web site or blog where they sell it for the "regular" price. Warriors are supposed to get special discounts over what the general public pays. They have no actual site where the sell the product, no domain name, no nothing. The WSO forum becomes their only de facto storefront and that kind of grinds on me a bit.

    I'm not suggesting this be formalized, but at least from now on I'm putting a link into my WSOs so that visitors can at least see my main page where the product is selling at the regular price. And yes, anyone can throw up a blog in minutes to do this, but at least I'll give it a whack.

    When I find a WSO I like I try to Google up the product name and see if I can find a site where it sells. If I see the person has invested in a domain name, some graphics, maybe a mini-site design--I then to have more faith in the product from the get go.

    I tend to not to want to tinker to much with well oiled machines and the WF is pretty well lubricated in its present format, at least in my opinion.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by Troy_Phillips View Post

      I think they should put a triangle in the left hand corner . Members could then moderate to some extent themselves and report spam.

      I hate spam.... now those little sausages they can in Vienna ... mmmmmmmmmm
      Troy, try the Spam Fried Rice breakfast at Duke's Canoe Club on Waikiki - it will change your mind about the canned pork product...
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  • Profile picture of the author kyhell
    ok im not sure if im shooting myself in the foot by saying this as I obviously am consider a noob here but it seems to me that the admins do a great job policing the forum and the vets around here seem to weed out the problem children
    I have found WF to be a priceless resource and things like pms and sig (although im not currently using mine but I will) are key features that bring me here along with the seemingly endless well stream of information here.
    a Forum is very much like any IRL society and history has proven time and time again that the more restrictions imposed upon a society only end up creating an adverse effect upon the citizens in the society. The scammers and spammers will spend their time finding new and clever ways to circumvent any restrictions imposed. IMHO I believe WF is a beautiful machine and we ought not to attempt to fix what isn't broken. because truth be told there will never be a script written to implement common sense you just have to be born with it ~kyhell
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  • Profile picture of the author CMCarlin
    I wanted to chime in real quick as I don't have a lot of time (therefore I wasn't able to read the whole thread, but I will when I get back!)

    Other forums use a community driven method to moderate their members.

    allahkhazamcom uses a post rating system. If a post gets lowered low enough, you won't be able to see it. Every post rating counts towards a users overall status and they have different levels (highest is guru, then scholar and so on down).

    Higher status has more weight when they rate a post. This works very well for this community as bad threads are usually nuked within hours from the users themselves.

    Another forum (thefastlanetomillions.com) uses a reputation system. Similar to Alla's, except it only goes up. You can add rep to a post, which increases the posters reputation (which can open up different privileges). To prevent abuse, the system will not let you add reputation to the same user until you spread it around a bit.

    Just some food for thought I guess.
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  • Profile picture of the author amaechi007
    I appreciate your opinion, but i think that's really harsh. There are genuine warriors who are here for genuine reasons, why should they go through all that?
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  • Profile picture of the author mahesh2k
    With thanks system based level it can be flawed as well. I mean there should be control on how many thanks can one person make to another in one day. If that is not controlled then people can create multiple accounts and can lift any particular profile up. I have seen this in WSO (War room as well). Some profiles are raising thanks to some X profile that you can see in WSO offer thread. Many times you'll see some X member not voiced their opinion on that WSO thread but gives thanks to those who are posting views on that thread(i'm pointing this case many times this is suspicious and thanks made just to raise popularity of WSO.

    For me Thanking system is just to thanks the person for help or genuine opinion.
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  • Profile picture of the author l23bc
    This is a great post and i have been following it through

    I dont know myself what i could bring to people already who have experience in internet marketing, I have been online for a long time but my whole purpose for paying the membership warrior fee was to learn online how to build good strong businesses from people whom are doing so already.

    I have to say it does get very annoying when you do apply to posts and people make judgemental ideas about however thats the rules of the internet i suppose to some extent,

    I hardly say things on here now like "great post thank you" or hit the thank you hit because i hardly have time to blow smoke back to people.

    Any system you have emposed on the forum will be in favor for some who have been around for a while, but in hardness to newcomers or other people to quickly pick up,

    quote by
    amaechi007
    why should they go through all that?

    i totally agree with you i have been online since 1995 before the warrior forum, being 2010 now makes me realise how the web has changed in many ways, from chat rooms no longer being around to chat to people to forum postings no matter how hard there always be rules on communaticion and how to behave in places online,

    There is a old uk saying, If there something too good to be true, it possibily is? its more up to every person who use a service or place online to make it the best it is,

    andy
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  • Profile picture of the author grrbtn1959
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      IM is hard for anyone just starting out withotu forums liks warrior making it even harder.
      Having rules on this forum may make it harder to be a newbie but they certainly would have nothing to do with newbies having a hard time with IM. This forum is not necessary to be involved in internet marketing.

      I can understand why people say we want the forum to be friendly to newbies and help them but we also have an obligation to make this a decent place for the non-newbies. If anything, the obligation is larger towards long-time members since they have done the majority of the work getting the WF to this point.

      The Warrior Forum, as an entity and all of us as a group, do not have any obligation to newbies and do not owe them in any shape or form. People help newbies because they want to do so.

      If anything, it is a lot more helpful to newbies if we can keep the cockroach population down as much as possible since newbies rarely have the discernment needed to avoid being scammed.

      Tina
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by lisag View Post

        You should be ashamed of yourself for *******izing the name of such a noble organization. Everyone knows that PETA stands for PLEASE Eat The Animals.
        Another noble organization doing their part to solve global warming by eating the miscreants releasing large quantities of methane into the atmosphere.

        There's talk of merging the two into PPETTA - People, Please Eat the Tasty Animals. Some people object because the tee shirts would be huge...:p
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    • Profile picture of the author Istvan Horvath
      Originally Posted by grrbtn1959 View Post

      I must agree that we need to make newbies very welcome herere and try and make the forum as helpful to them as possible. Restricting what they can actually do untill they have done a certain number of posts is just going to put further obstacles in their path.
      About a year ago I was a total newbie. I didn't even hear about the WF before.
      After joining, for about a month I was just reading and reading and reading + trying to digest all the great info that was shared by WF members for free.

      Then I dared to ask my first question, seeking some advice about a page. I was expecting harsh critique... instead I got extremely detailed, helpful advice. I was overwhelmed how much time and energy was put in the replies.

      No, I didn't need the ability to PM, I didn't need any "privileges" to ask a question and to get excellent help. I don't see what kind of "obstacles" are you talking about. What stops you from asking meaningful questions and/or reading as much as you can?
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      • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
        Originally Posted by Istvan Horvath View Post

        No, I didn't need the ability to PM, I didn't need any "privileges" to ask a question and to get excellent help. I don't see what kind of "obstacles" are you talking about. What stops you from asking meaningful questions and/or reading as much as you can?
        Bingo.

        And btw, to those who think that restricting PMs is somehow going to harm your learning curve or profits...

        PM features didn't even exist on forums when many of us got started in IM. Yet, we managed, survived and even thrived.*


        Cheers,
        Becky

        *The real old timers probably remember hiking barefoot in the snow -- uphill both ways -- just to get access to a marketing forum. Which back then was just a rock where people carved their messages.
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  • Profile picture of the author Simo
    Hey Warriors,

    I have really enjoyed reading this thread, and all the constructive ideas, and feedback that has come with it.

    I think the danger of to many rules are that they make the community overly hierarchical. Being hierarchical does not serve newbies IMHO. I don't think we need to tinker with something which isn't broken (Imperfect...yes - but nothing is perfect).

    I agree with Paul in that the best way to manage this is by educating the forum on what spammers are likely to do and what the telltale signs are of fradulent WSO's, profiles etc. Knowledge is Power. For instance I honestly didn't know how to report a post until Alexa mentioned her tip on this thread (yes, that should be obvious, but its not if you aren't paying attention).

    The spammers now have my intention, I have a greater understanding of what to be on the lookout for and I've donned my aviators.

    Cheers,

    Simo
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  • Profile picture of the author jg123
    The spammers come because this forum is so successful and it is more than just being greedy, it is being lazy!! If you were just greedy why not take the time to build up a good reputation. I will also tell you there is a million times less spam and useless posts here than on digitalpoint, every second post there is complete crap.
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    • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
      I must admit that I'm a little surprised at how this thread has captured everyone's imagination!

      It is interesting how many newbies have taken my suggestion as being somehow discriminatory or unfair towards them. That was the farthest thing from my mind!

      Newbies are the lifeblood of this strange old business we are in and should be encouraged. But encouragement is one thing - spoonfeeding is another. One leads to success and the other leads to laziness and failure.

      But I digress.

      I'm still not completely convinced that my idea of using the thanks system as a means of validating Warriors is such a bad thing. The only things that my proposal would restrict would be WSOs, PMs and sigs - all of which are currently 'controlled' by post count (which clearly is even more susceptible to being gamed than my suggested system would be.)

      And all of us could live without any of them if needs be.

      No newbie would suffer in any way from not having those things. Asking and answering questions on the various forums would still be open to all, and learning from the massive resource we have here would be just as accessible.

      It is simply that the very things that attract the spammers and scammers would have to be earned by making positive contributions to the forum. And that is something few of them would be bothered to do.

      I said in my first post that my idea is probably too simplistic, but I had hoped that cleverer people than me would chip in with ideas of their own to make it more foolproof (note the word 'more' - I'm realistic enough to know for sure that nothing is ever going to be 100%)

      Any suggestions?

      Or is it really a case of it ain't broke so we don't need to fix it?

      Martin
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Martin,
        It is interesting how many newbies have taken my suggestion as being somehow discriminatory or unfair towards them.
        Only a few, really. It's largely a matter of setting expectations. We get a lot of people in here who expect that things will be done a certain way, based on how other forums do them.

        Some places are so desperate for traffic or recognition that they keep the bar as low as possible. When the owners of these sites refuse to say "No" to abuses, their members start to think of certain things as rights. Then they come in here and are surprised to find that we expect more.

        If you want an interesting exercise in market research some time, go to Alexa.com and look at the demographic tabs for a bunch of the forums in this market. The age and educational level of members here is substantially higher than for any of the others I looked at.
        I said in my first post that my idea is probably too simplistic, but I had hoped that cleverer people than me would chip in with ideas of their own to make it more foolproof (note the word 'more' - I'm realistic enough to know for sure that nothing is ever going to be 100%)
        The challenge with this kind of thing is that it takes specific resources that don't scale well for a forum like this. There'd be a lot of programming involved, which would need to be tweaked and constantly updated, and could break with any new version of the software.

        Then there's the additional server load, which is not something you can ignore casually. Slow the system down noticeably and you're going to have a riot on your hands.

        And, the algorithms would need to be changed from time to time, both to find a better balance and to compensate for attempts to get around the system. People would start to lose privileges they'd worked for, and that's never a fun situation.

        Can you say, "Warrior Slap?"

        We don't need more rules, whether human or technical. We need more members who are alert and aware.

        Posts like yours do a lot to make that happen. As people look at what you're trying to address, and consider the implications of the various suggestions, they get more insight into how this whole Warrior thing works. And they see first hand how much people like yourself care about the place.

        In the long run, that does more good than any amount of programming.


        Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author digigo
    I disagree with OP.. why "thank you" earned? Why not just pay for membership.. and if they break the rule, kick them off... the rules we already have will encourage newcomers that is vital to this board... then i only see a few minor infractions because i have not been active with my membership... i would still say.. live and let live
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