Those EVIL B*$t*rd$!!!

71 replies
Hi All,

That's it!

I'm FED UP!

I've had it!

I can't take anymore.

I am so sick of all these "gurus" and "marketers" trying to make money. How dare they?

And, then, they add insult to injury by, get this! Using marketing techniques! How can they get away with this?!? There was even one big name marketer, you all would know who it is, that sent an EMAIL (GASP) to me!

The worst part? You won't believe this.

He used, I still can't believe he did this, a subject line that got me to open his message.

But don't worry, I already figured out the best way to get even with those EVIL B*$t*rd$!!!

You want to know how?

I will post at the Warrior Forum and whine about it. Yep, that'll show 'em!

All the best,
Michael
#b$trd$ #evil
  • Profile picture of the author zerofill
    Wait you mean marketers hating to be marketed to? WTF...

    LOL on a side note...

    I am not on many lists...other than the ones I seem to be added to somehow that I never opted into lol...

    I look at it this way... Every email there might be something you can learn out of it...

    Or maybe a technique you were thinking about using yourself. Now someone else did a variation of it and you might be able to get a little insight on how that worked for them.

    Not only can you get some ideas of what to do but also what not to do... Often more what not to do lately from the emails I have been getting...but either way... You came away with something to think about.
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    • Profile picture of the author Bryan Zimmerman
      Originally Posted by zerofill View Post


      I am not on many lists...other than the ones I seem to be added to somehow that I never opted into lol...

      Sorry about that Don, but you've been such a good customer I keep re-adding you every time you unsubscribe
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      • Profile picture of the author zerofill
        Originally Posted by Bryan Zimmerman View Post

        Sorry about that Don, but you've been such a good customer I keep re-adding you every time you unsubscribe
        kiss my @$$ zimmerman LOL
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    • Profile picture of the author CDawson
      Banned
      Originally Posted by zerofill View Post

      Wait you mean marketers hating to be marketed to? WTF...

      LOL on a side note...

      I am not on many lists...other than the ones I seem to be added to somehow that I never opted into lol...

      I look at it this way... Every email there might be something you can learn out of it...

      Or maybe a technique you were thinking about using yourself. Now someone else did a variation of it and you might be able to get a little insight on how that worked for them.

      Not only can you get some ideas of what to do but also what not to do... Often more what not to do lately from the emails I have been getting...but either way... You came away with something to think about.
      The ones you never seemed to opt in to, you did, the list was sold.
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  • Profile picture of the author Droopy Dawg
    He used, I still can't believe he did this, a subject line that got me to open his message.
    LMAO!! Good stuff Mike.. I've had my laugh for the day.

    Originally Posted by zerofill View Post

    I am not on many lists...other than the ones I seem to be added to somehow that I never opted into lol...
    Bro... sign up to everyone's (with a new gmail acct) list and use the emails as swipe material... why re-invent the wheel?

    DeShon
    Signature


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    • Profile picture of the author WritingMadwoman
      All right, that was funny. I hope it's not in response to my whine about poor article quality. I want marketers to make money from their articles. I want to make money from mine too. But I want the readers of those articles to still have some brain activity after all is said and done.

      Maybe you were referring to another thread though, and if so I know which one...

      Edit: Maybe I don't know which one after all. Oh well, I still enjoyed your post very much.

      Wendy
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Ha ha, funny stuff, Michael. I've been thinking about using provocative subject lines to get people to open my email, but you sure straightened me out on how wrong that would be! :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author DogScout
    Somehow when a person gets 10 emails FROM 10 'gurus' that describe in 300+ words how they personally looked through the product and personally endorse it, etc, etc, and each email is word for word the same... It tells me that they didn't even think enough of the product to have a member of their staff take 30 minutes to re-write the example email that the product creator sent them.

    That's not evil and doesn't make them evil, just unreliable.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bayo
    Michael...you're my hero (for now!)

    Someone responded to an ad, got the product then came back to the WF to post on the FREE WSO that they felt they had wasted 10 minutes in signing up and downloading the FREE report because it was information they already knew.

    They were also pi$$ed that they had to pay for the better stuff.

    Damn marketers using systems that work!!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author Buildingfutures
    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post


    Look for methods to use instead of people to follow - it works better.

    kay

    Right on the nail. Too many people looking to have this stuff just handed to them. Need to get out of that mindset ass-fast. The sooner people can think for themselves the sooner their business will prosper.

    Sure its good to have others OPINIONS (like the opinions of several marketing friends on a bit of copy I did) as they can help you grow. But just blindly following everyone is a surefire way to disaster.

    I oughta know, wasted years doing that bull****.

    Think for yourselves!! TAKE ACTION!! GOOOO!!

    EXCELSIOR!!

    -Sean

    PS.

    Mike, I laughed so hard my girlfriend woke up. Great OP.
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    Michael...... somehow you always seem to bring out the best of a situation

    There has been sooo many of these whining posts and yes they are whining no matter how ya spin it this is business not kindergarten the game is chess not checkers
    -WD
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

    Hi All,

    That's it!

    I'm FED UP!

    I've had it!

    I can't take anymore.

    I am so sick of all these "gurus" and "marketers" trying to make money. How dare they?

    And, then, they add insult to injury by, get this! Using marketing techniques! How can they get away with this?!? There was even one big name marketer, you all would know who it is, that sent an EMAIL (GASP) to me!

    The worst part? You won't believe this.

    He used, I still can't believe he did this, a subject line that got me to open his message.

    But don't worry, I already figured out the best way to get even with those EVIL B**rd$!!!

    You want to know how?

    I will post at the Warrior Forum and whine about it. Yep, that'll show 'em!

    All the best,
    Michael
    You have alot of time on your hands
    Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author Hamish Jones
    Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

    Hi All,

    That's it!

    I'm FED UP!

    I've had it!

    I can't take anymore.

    I am so sick of all these "gurus" and "marketers" trying to make money. How dare they?

    And, then, they add insult to injury by, get this! Using marketing techniques! How can they get away with this?!? There was even one big name marketer, you all would know who it is, that sent an EMAIL (GASP) to me!

    The worst part? You won't believe this.

    He used, I still can't believe he did this, a subject line that got me to open his message.

    But don't worry, I already figured out the best way to get even with those EVIL B**rd$!!!

    You want to know how?

    I will post at the Warrior Forum and whine about it. Yep, that'll show 'em!

    All the best,
    Michael
    Comedy Gold!

    Have a good one!

    Cheers,

    Hamish
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  • Profile picture of the author EndGame
    I worked on a number of product launches last year,doing affiliate management stuff and a little strategy behind them. I did a couple of these with a fairly big, quite well-known clickbank merchant.

    I was always of the opinion that if you did a launch and people didn't complain about it on this forum, you hadn't made enough of an impact. Several of the launches we did didn't get any attention or complaints on this forum, and they made a lot less money than when they were getting complained about.

    Nice post Mike by the way. I noticed an increase in all this recently as well.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Originally Posted by EndGame View Post

      I was always of the opinion that if you did a launch and people didn't complain about it on this forum, you hadn't made enough of an impact. Several of the launches we did didn't get any attention or complaints on this forum, and they made a lot less money than when they were getting complained about.
      That information doesn't need to be public (if you know what I mean).
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  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
    Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post


    I will post at the Warrior Forum and whine about it. Yep, that'll show 'em!
    My favorite part about the whining "how dare they try to make money" posts is that they often include sig files.

    *shakes fist in the air* Dang those whiners trying to make money from their whines!



    Cheers,
    Becky
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      As Sophia Petrillo said to her daughter Dorothy.

      "Jealousy is an ugly thing Dorothy...And so are you in anything backless."

      It's all jealousy Michael. They can't make money because they're either too
      lazy or whatever so they blame all their misery on the gurus who actually
      have their sh*t together.

      As yourself, I'm pretty tired of hearing it too.

      Oh, loved your post...classic.
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  • Profile picture of the author tomw
    Anyone else miss the old days...the ones where real marketers came here to not only talk about but also to actually *make* a bunch of money - very often together.

    Those "whining" posts are preposterously prevalent.

    Me...I'd ban 'em all, instantly...right along with all those know-it-alls that p*ss on newbies' dreams by telling them that the best they can hope for is writing articles at $2 a pop.

    Tom
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by tomw View Post

      Anyone else miss the old days...the ones where real marketers came here to not only talk about but also to actually *make* a bunch of money - very often together.

      Those "whining" posts are preposterously prevalent.

      Me...I'd ban 'em all, instantly...right along with all those know-it-alls that p*ss on newbies' dreams by telling them that the best they can hope for is writing articles at $2 a pop.

      Tom
      I agree Tom...Hey, miss having you around guy.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Damn you, Wagenheim! I recognized your "Golden Girls" reference, and now I'm bummed... :p

        A good whine, especially with some cheesy comebacks, can be entertaining for awhile. However, like the late-night talk show clowns, when you tell the same joke for 10-12 years, it gets old.

        I love being marketed to when it's done well. I learn stuff and buy good stuff.

        But when you get wannabes that copy something without stopping to think about a) why it worked or b) it might have been a failed experiment, you get marketing uglier than Maude in a dental floss bikini...

        (Get that image out of your head, Steve... )
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      • Profile picture of the author tomw
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        I agree Tom...Hey, miss having you around guy.
        Thanks Steve. Good to see you again too.

        I don't have as much time these days.

        However, when I do stop by I find myself getting pretty dismayed by the growing cynicism, discouragement and entitlement culture.

        The "whining" posts that Michael refers to are just the tip of the iceberg...

        There are so many millionaires and countless others doing very well based on the knowledge, support and encouragement they received as well as the partnerships they formed here.

        When they first signed up, all that many of them had were hopes, dreams and a determination to succeed. Not to mention their wonderful can-do attitudes, smiles on their faces and a sizeable chunk of professional courtesy - which always seem to result in (a profitable!) mutual respect amongst Warriors.

        Some people just don't get it...



        Tom
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    • Profile picture of the author Killer Joe
      Originally Posted by tomw View Post

      Anyone else miss the old days...
      Boy, I sure do.

      But at my age it's just a memory problem...

      KJ
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    • Profile picture of the author Lisa Gergets
      Originally Posted by tomw View Post

      Anyone else miss the old days...the ones where real marketers came here to not only talk about but also to actually *make* a bunch of money - very often together.

      Tom
      I wasn't lucky enough to see those old days, but I miss 'em anyways. I sure do wish that this forum would move in that direction...again.
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      • Profile picture of the author tomw
        Originally Posted by Lisa Gergets View Post

        I wasn't lucky enough to see those old days, but I miss 'em anyways. I sure do wish that this forum would move in that direction...again.
        When I first signed up here (maybe almost a decade ago now) it felt like we were discovering the first glisters in the pan. Now we're into a full-on gold rush.

        Back-shooters and all...



        But hey, this place is (and always was) what *you* make of it. There are plenty of opportunities to team up and get rich together. Ever heard the phrase,

        "Empty vessels make the most noise."

        You just have to avoid the loudmouths and reach out to the good guys. I think most of us know who they are...you can usually tell the difference by reading a handful of their posts.

        Tom
        Signature
        STOP THE TRAFFIK: PEOPLE SHOULDN'T BE BOUGHT AND SOLD
        Help Us Rescue, Rehabilitate And Reunite Victims With Their Families

        STOP THE TRAFFIK is a growing global movement of individuals, communities and organisations fighting to PREVENT the sale of people,
        PROTECT the trafficked and PROSECUTE the traffickers.
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        • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
          Originally Posted by tomw View Post

          When I first signed up here (maybe almost a decade ago now) it felt like we were discovering the first glisters in the pan. Now we're into a full-on gold rush.

          Back-shooters and all...



          But hey, this place is (and always was) what *you* make of it. There are plenty of opportunities to team up and get rich together. Ever heard the phrase,

          "Empty vessels make the most noise."

          You just have to avoid the loudmouths and reach out to the good guys. I think most of us know who they are...you can usually tell the difference by reading a handful of their posts.

          Tom
          I miss seeing the informative posts and opinions from Dr. Mani, Willie Crawford, John Reese, Mr. Unconventional, Mike Filsaime, Eric Louviere, and a host of a bunch of other Warriors that either no longer or seldom post here, even if I disagreed with them becaues I always like to read about their thought process(es) and how they saw things. Though I know why some of them don't post here anymore.

          @ Oksa, funny post brother!

          RoD
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Originally Posted by scottgallagher View Post

          I any event, perhaps the cosortium of marketers should discuss an imposed immediate guarantee on the free up front material. Could that help? Perhaps a refund on the free material, but the refund is the perceived value? That just might make a few more people happy.
          Now this I'd love to see!

          A refund, not on the perceived value, but on the claimed value.

          That way, next time someone tries to convince me that their bonus of a pdf version of "Scientific Advertising" is a $97 value, I can claim the refund and validate the statement at the same time. It would make their copy worth so much more than the 23 other free copies hiding on my hard drive...

          Yes, that would make me very happy...



          [PS - That lump on the side of my face is my tongue planted firmly in my cheek, and that tugging you feel on your cuffs is me pulling your leg...:p]
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        • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
          Originally Posted by tomw View Post

          But hey, this place is (and always was) what *you* make of it. There are plenty of opportunities to team up and get rich together.
          Indeed.

          And if there aren't enough solid money-making posts on this forum, it's up to us to make them.



          Cheers,
          Becky
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          • Profile picture of the author tomw
            Originally Posted by R Hagel View Post

            And if there aren't enough solid money-making posts on this forum, it's up to us to make them.
            Indeed.



            Problem is, from what I can see, too many "make money on the WF" ebooks have meant that so much great content, previously freely posted and resulting in amazingly informative discussion threads that everyone could participate in, contribute to and immediately benefit from (and for posterity) which is now packaged up and sold as "WSO's of the Week, Month, Year or Millennium."



            Tom
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            Help Us Rescue, Rehabilitate And Reunite Victims With Their Families

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            PROTECT the trafficked and PROSECUTE the traffickers.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by tomw View Post

          When I first signed up here (maybe almost a decade ago now) it felt like we were discovering the first glisters in the pan. Now we're into a full-on gold rush.

          Back-shooters and all...



          But hey, this place is (and always was) what *you* make of it. There are plenty of opportunities to team up and get rich together. Ever heard the phrase,

          "Empty vessels make the most noise."

          You just have to avoid the loudmouths and reach out to the good guys. I think most of us know who they are...you can usually tell the difference by reading a handful of their posts.

          Tom
          Ah the good ole days. That was back when I had hair.

          I am still waiting on your 1000 post manifesto, Tom. So much that I stopped working and will starve to death by the time you get your post count up.
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          • Profile picture of the author tomw
            Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

            Ah the good ole days. That was back when I had hair.

            I am still waiting on your 1000 post manifesto, Tom. So much that I stopped working and will starve to death by the time you get your post count up.
            Ah yes, my 1000th post,

            "Tomw's Complete Business(es) Model,"

            has been snapped up by Bryan for Allen's interview series. It should be hitting you some time later in the year. I'll have to come up with something else for my 1000th post, I'm afraid.

            Also, I think you look much better now...without the Homer-comb-over.

            Tom
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            Help Us Rescue, Rehabilitate And Reunite Victims With Their Families

            STOP THE TRAFFIK is a growing global movement of individuals, communities and organisations fighting to PREVENT the sale of people,
            PROTECT the trafficked and PROSECUTE the traffickers.
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            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
              Banned
              Originally Posted by tomw View Post

              Also, I think you look much better now...without the Homer-comb-over.

              Tom
              It was a pain in the butt to grow that one hair out and comb it. The wind was my enemy.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

            Ah the good ole days. That was back when I had hair.
            You had hair??? :confused::confused::confused:
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            • Profile picture of the author Joe118
              Look, all I wanted to point out is that people that don't add VALUE for me should expect to get an unsubscribe from me. Will they see me subscribe again to their lists? Maybe, if they add VALUE.

              Everyone is free to do what they want, of course. I'm just telling you what you can expect from *me*. Do I matter, or does it matter what I do? Probably not. But if enough people do it, then ... maybe we can get more email with true value and not be treated as opt-in == permission to spam me to kingdom come.

              Adding VALUE is *not*:
              • Spewing out canned messages provided by product owners
              • Blindly endorsing products because you're in an affiliate relation with the owner of said product
              • Hyping the product sight unseen
              Those *will* earn the list owner an instant unsub from me.

              If you're a list owner and have seen an unsub from warriorjoe118 at the google mail dot com site then that's why.

              If this message results in some people retaliating and blocking my email address then THANK YOU for saving us both some time
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by tomw View Post

      Anyone else miss the old days...the ones where real marketers came here to not only talk about but also to actually *make* a bunch of money - very often together.

      Those "whining" posts are preposterously prevalent.

      Me...I'd ban 'em all, instantly...right along with all those know-it-alls that p*ss on newbies' dreams by telling them that the best they can hope for is writing articles at $2 a pop.

      Tom
      This post made me think of a feature I'd like to see...

      The ability to thank a post more than once, like a "Thanks" to the 3rd power.



      Seriously though, these comments have all been great. And maybe Dr. Mani, Willie, Mr. Reese and company may not post all that often, so it's up to us to bring in the guard! But there are still plenty of good posts - we just have to sift through more clutter than we remember.

      All the best,
      Michael
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      • Profile picture of the author Killer Joe
        Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

        This post made me think of a feature I'd like to see...

        The ability to thank a post more than once, like a "Thanks" to the 3rd power.
        Maybe we should also ask John to bring back that "I'm John McCabe, and I approved this message" and have him start approving all the posts.

        That way we'll know if something is fishy or not...

        KJ
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  • Profile picture of the author timer
    I don't believe in any gurus, whether they are religious or anything else. They all just want your money.
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  • Profile picture of the author scottgallagher
    Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

    Hi All,

    That's it!

    I'm FED UP!
    Michael,

    On behalf of marketers, we are humbly sorry. Please accept our apology.

    I really am sorry for sending you an email Micheal!!!

    I understand your frustration and we will refrain from marketing to you. I don't know what I was doing.

    We spend $3 a click here and there, countless SMM and SEO hours among many other ways that we spend money to get you on our list, so we can give you free education that we believe in. We are sorry that we put out significant capital and effort simply in an attempt to earn your business, maybe 5 in 100 might buy and be happy customers.

    We also are humbly sorry that we clutter your email box with half a dozen emails over a couple of weeks, we know how much of an effort and how daunting of task it is to unsubscribe. I personally wish they'd make that much easier.

    I any event, perhaps the cosortium of marketers should discuss an impossed immediate guarantee on the free up front material. Could that help? Perhaps a refund on the free material, but the refund is the perceived value? That just might make a few more people happy.

    Anyhow, thank you for your concerns and we'll work even harder to make an attempt to earn your business.
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  • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
    Interesting fun post, marketers sending to marketers. my prediction I see the future where people will fall off into smaller satellite groups and follow smaller groups where they are treated properly and as part of the team, more leaders who climb down in the trenches and work blood sweat n tears with the team and work on a personal basis. the big time impersonal approach may last but get ready for the micro gurus holding up strong and loyal teams

    and there are couple people here and even in this post above who have positioned perfect for that and will reap many rewards moving forward as people loose faith with the illusive guru just pumping in personal crap and offering the latest gadgetry and free offers for a sale. people are getting tired of that crap.
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    .

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  • Profile picture of the author Buildingfutures
    Makes me wish I had been there at the beginning. But I digress. I'm doing the work I can now and thats all that matters. I'll be making my income online soon enough, and in 5 years when the forum changes again and people are bitching more than ever, we'll all look back on this time and laugh.

    HAH!

    Excelsior!

    -Sean
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  • Profile picture of the author tomw
    Originally Posted by Buildingfutures View Post

    I'll be making my income online soon enough...
    Holy slothey snailey slowcoach, Batman!

    Sean, are you still in the planning phases of your total online domination? Even after over a year since that first long discussion we all had with you about your ideas, goals and the troubles you were having with your girl living in a far off state?

    Jeepers, fella! You need to get on with it. At this rate it'll be five years until you change your underwear!



    Oh and...erm...Excelsior!

    Tom
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    Help Us Rescue, Rehabilitate And Reunite Victims With Their Families

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    PROTECT the trafficked and PROSECUTE the traffickers.
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    • Profile picture of the author Buildingfutures
      Originally Posted by tomw View Post

      Holy slothey snailey slowcoach, Batman!

      Sean, are you still in the planning phases of your total online domination? Even after over a year since that first long discussion we all had with you about your ideas, goals and the troubles you were having with your girl living in a far off state?

      Jeepers, fella! You need to get on with it. At this rate it'll be five years until you change your underwear!



      Oh and...erm...Excelsior!

      Tom
      Actually Tom, I took the majority of 2009 off to get myself orientated and into a better mindset! I wasn't going to do jack with how I was thinking back then. I focused on being a drone in the real world for a bit, selling cars and such.

      BUT NOW I'M BACK! AND BETTER THAN EVER!

      And taking action. So really, its only a matter of time now.

      EXCELSIOR!

      -Sean
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      • Profile picture of the author tomw
        Originally Posted by Buildingfutures View Post

        BUT NOW I'M BACK! AND BETTER THAN EVER!
        That's really great to hear, my man! That makes two of us...



        EXCELSIOR!

        Tom
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        • Profile picture of the author Adam Carn
          Originally Posted by tomw View Post

          That's really great to hear, my man! That makes two of us...



          EXCELSIOR!

          Tom
          Good to see you Tom

          Adam
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  • Haha that's funny Michael, thanks for the laugh
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  • Profile picture of the author mikemcmillan
    <<I will post at the Warrior Forum and whine about it. Yep, that'll show 'em!>>

    Michael, don't downplay whining! It is a powerful technique when combined with whimpering, skulking, and nagging--my girlfriend has mastered all three and uses them to create a sense of latent, pestering guilt and impending doom when I don't get the garbage out in the morning .
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  • Profile picture of the author Adam Carn
    Being marketers on a marketing forum, why do we complain of being marketed to? No need, it's silly.

    Nice one Michael.

    Thanks,
    Adam
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by Killer Joe View Post

      Maybe we should also ask John to bring back that "I'm John McCabe, and I approved this message" and have him start approving all the posts.

      That way we'll know if something is fishy or not...

      KJ
      Who knows? It is an election year, after all...

      As for approving all posts? Given some of what I've read, not even Allen Says has that much money...
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  • Profile picture of the author discrat
    Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

    Hi All,

    That's it!

    I'm FED UP!

    I've had it!

    I can't take anymore.

    I am so sick of all these "gurus" and "marketers" trying to make money. How dare they?

    And, then, they add insult to injury by, get this! Using marketing techniques! How can they get away with this?!? There was even one big name marketer, you all would know who it is, that sent an EMAIL (GASP) to me!

    The worst part? You won't believe this.

    He used, I still can't believe he did this, a subject line that got me to open his message.

    But don't worry, I already figured out the best way to get even with those EVIL B**rd$!!!

    You want to know how?

    I will post at the Warrior Forum and whine about it. Yep, that'll show 'em!

    All the best,
    Michael
    Oh my here we go again....Another person whining and complaining about other whiners and complainers here at Warrior !!
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    I don't want to single anyone out, but I really don't see any difference between the whiners and those whining about the whiners. You're just whining about different things...one group is whining about experienced marketers and the other is whining about inexperienced marketers.

    Some of you lamenting the "good old days" and conversations that went on, instead of complaining about it, try starting a good conversation. You sound like you're lost without a few guys that don't come around anymore. Didn't you learn anything from them? Why don't you step up your game and take a leadership role. In college sports, seniors graduate and the underclassmen step into leadership roles. If there is a vacuum here, it seems to me you're the ones not filling it.

    Just a thought...go ahead and flame me now.
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      I don't want to single anyone out, but I really don't see any difference between the whiners and those whining about the whiners. You're just whining about different things...one group is whining about experienced marketers and the other is whining about inexperienced marketers.

      Some of you lamenting the "good old days" and conversations that went on, instead of complaining about it, try starting a good conversation. You sound like you're lost without a few guys that don't come around anymore. Didn't you learn anything from them? Why don't you step up your game and take a leadership role. In college sports, seniors graduate and the underclassmen step into leadership roles. If there is a vacuum here, it seems to me you're the ones not filling it.

      Just a thought...go ahead and flame me now.

      It makes one wonder doesn't it ?? Or is just a good ole boys "Thanked" building scheme !
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by discrat View Post

        It makes one wonder doesn't it ?? Or is just a good ole boys "Thanked" building scheme !
        DANG IT! Looks like discrat is onto us, Ol' Boys!



        ~M~
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        • Profile picture of the author Killer Joe
          Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

          DANG IT! Looks like discrat is onto us, Ol' Boys!



          ~M~
          Don't worry Mike,

          I'll go back and thank your OP, that should be good for a negative '6' on the ole 'Thanks' scale.

          KJ
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          • Profile picture of the author Lance K
            The OP was some good comic relief.

            But when you try to lump EVERYBODY into ONE of TWO groups (not you Michael), nobody comes out a winner.

            I can tell you for a FACT that there are more than 1) "whiner marketers whining about being marketed" to and 2) "whiners whining about the whiners". I agree with both sides at times. Each have valid points.

            But it makes one think twice about trying to add something meaningful to a conversation when invariably someone at some point makes a polarizing comment that divides the entire thread into 2 distinct sides. Perhaps cordial disagreement is a thing of the past.
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            • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
              Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

              The OP was some good comic relief.

              But when you try to lump EVERYBODY into ONE of TWO groups (not you Michael), nobody comes out a winner.

              I can tell you for a FACT that there are more than 1) "whiner marketers whining about being marketed" to and 2) "whiners whining about the whiners". I agree with both sides at times. Each have valid points.

              But it makes one think twice about trying to add something meaningful to a conversation when invariably someone at some point makes a polarizing comment that divides the entire thread into 2 distinct sides.Perhaps cordial disagreement is a thing of the past.
              Hi Lance,

              I'm guessing that was directed at me. I recognize that there are more than two groups, in fact, everyone is in a unique situation so in a sense there are no groups. You seem to have missed my point, so let me restate it in a way I hope you'll find less polarizing.

              You wrote, "But it makes one think twice about trying to add something meaningful to a conversation when invariably someone at some point makes a polarizing comment that divides the entire thread into 2 distinct sides. This is what I was trying to encourage, actually. Rather than whining, or whining about whining, rather than complaining about how the conversation isn't as good as it used to be, DO SOMETHING to change it. Take responsibility. Be a positive force for betterment rather than just echoing the same protestations.

              It does no good to whine unless you also offer a solution, or at least ask for a solution or suggestions or ideas to make things better. Anything less it seems to me is just whining. Contributing to the conversation is great, contributing to the whining is less helpful.
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              • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                Hi Lance,

                I'm guessing that was directed at me.
                Not directed at anyone, really. Just a general observation.

                But I agree with your reply. It makes a great deal of sense. Thanks for adding that.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      This post made me think of a feature I'd like to see...

      The ability to thank a post more than once, like a "Thanks" to the 3rd power.



      Seriously though, these comments have all been great. And maybe Dr. Mani, Willie, Mr. Reese and company may not post all that often, so it's up to us to bring in the new guard! But there are still plenty of good posts - we just have to sift through more clutter than we remember.

      All the best,
      Michael
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      I don't want to single anyone out, but I really don't see any difference between the whiners and those whining about the whiners. You're just whining about different things...one group is whining about experienced marketers and the other is whining about inexperienced marketers.

      Some of you lamenting the "good old days" and conversations that went on, instead of complaining about it, try starting a good conversation. You sound like you're lost without a few guys that don't come around anymore. Didn't you learn anything from them? Why don't you step up your game and take a leadership role. In college sports, seniors graduate and the underclassmen step into leadership roles. If there is a vacuum here, it seems to me you're the ones not filling it.

      Just a thought...go ahead and flame me now.
      No need to flame anybody here.



      ~Michael
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

        No need to flame anybody here.
        For the record, I wasn't talking about you, Michael. Your original post was obvious satire, and it was funny. It's the way the thread evolved I was referring to. And like I said, I didn't want to single anyone out, that's why I didn't quote anyone. I just wanted to offer a little food for thought.
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    • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      I don't want to single anyone out, but I really don't see any difference between the whiners and those whining about the whiners. You're just whining about different things...one group is whining about experienced marketers and the other is whining about inexperienced marketers.

      Some of you lamenting the "good old days" and conversations that went on, instead of complaining about it, try starting a good conversation. You sound like you're lost without a few guys that don't come around anymore. Didn't you learn anything from them? Why don't you step up your game and take a leadership role. In college sports, seniors graduate and the underclassmen step into leadership roles. If there is a vacuum here, it seems to me you're the ones not filling it.

      Just a thought...go ahead and flame me now.
      Nah, no flaming needed Dennis, that's so 2009. lol

      Some of us weren't lamenting about the good old days, some of us were just making a simple observation. I genuinely miss some of the Warriors that no longer contribute here anymore that's all. I do my part by contributing here, have even helped a few folks here and there.

      I took the OP as more tongue in cheek than seriously whining about the whiners. It was a good entertainment break in my already hectic morning. I rather enjoyed it.

      RoD "Give-Me-French-Roast-Or-Give-Me-Death!" Cortez

      P.S.
      When everyone thinks they're an expert, the real experts are drowned out by the incessant chatter
      Tom, that's my quote of the day........true that!
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

        Nah, no flaming needed Dennis. Some of us weren't lamenting about the good old days, some of us were just making a simple observation. I genuinely miss some of the Warriors that no longer contribute here anymore, no need to make it something it wasn't. I do my part by contributing here, have even helped a few folks here and there.

        I took the OP as more tongue in cheek than seriously whining about the whiners. It was a good entertainment break in my already hectic morning.
        I understand, Rod, and there's nothing wrong with missing the good old days. I took Michael's post as humor as well, but I was just getting a sense of resignation from the way the thread was heading that the forum was no longer good and never would be again.

        I was afraid I would be stepping on some old timer's toes, but I felt the forum was worth fighting for, and I felt if it was going to get better, veteran leadership was needed.
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        • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

          I understand, Rod, and there's nothing wrong with missing the good old days. I took Michael's post as humor as well, but I was just getting a sense of resignation from the way the thread was heading that the forum was no longer good and never would be again.

          I was afraid I would be stepping on some old timer's toes, but I felt the forum was worth fighting for, and I felt if it was going to get better, veteran leadership was needed.
          I reread the thread and I agree with you, the thread was heading in that direction, I'm glad you stepped in the way you did. There's some great new blood here and still some great veterans to keep us in line (I can see Paul Myer's eyeballs on me right now). We've got our share of wacky and eccentric types too (names omitted to protect the guilty).

          Regarding the OP, I think some of the threads have good merit when complaining about certain marketing techniques. Josh Anderson started a good one today about videos that don't state how long they are and force you to watch the whole thing (no controls). Then there are the silly ones. When someone opts into a newsletter and then they use terms like "I was spammed" are just plain silly.

          How can someone spam you when you opted in, asking to receive the information? Or the complaint about getting several e-mails from different goobers pushing the same product launch. I'm not the sharpest tack on the block, but at least I know when I opt into a bunch of marketers lists, I'm going to marketed to - sometimes a lot. I either read it or delete the e-mail and go on with my work (or my coffee bean grinding). Call me crazy for calling that a reasonable expectation.

          RoD
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Hi Dennis,

    No problem, that's what I thought you meant. It was just my way of trying to help nudge the conversation in a different direction; more of a casual reminder that we don't need to devolve into flames.

    ~Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author tomw
    Hi Dennis,

    As I started the group lament, I'll single myself out.



    When everyone thinks they're an expert, the real experts are drowned out by the incessant chatter.

    These days it seems that everyone who made a couple of hundred bucks is selling their system as a WSO. They're all telling you what to do, how to do it and they disparage everyone else they feel might be a competitor for their sig link click.

    This place has always been about relationships as well as the knowledge imparted. Many of us have leveraged these gifts to build seven and eight figure businesses.

    Others just like to p*ss and moan. To deride others as a reflection of their own shortcomings. They create the cynical noise that discourages the dreams, hopes, enthusiasm and motivation of existing and new members alike.

    Many members also feel that this place is their own personal support desk for every marketer and his companies' product range. They hijack threads and hound via pm, despite the 1st cardinal rule of the forum. So the successful move on.

    The "whiners" write bilious posts about our friends and colleagues in the business, besmirching their reputation and questioning their integrity. Nobody wants to encounter that when taking valuable time out to give back to a community that contributed significantly to everything they have achieved.

    Take these few issues amongst many others I could go into and the problem compounds as those able to genuinely help don't bother anymore. Not because they don't want to, but because they're tired of the hassle. Of the abuse, even.

    Thus, the greatest resource this place has, its successful alumni, is lost to the community.

    You make a great analogy. The problem I see is that those astute and successful enough to step up their game, as you say, will also grow tired of it and (again) move on. There are numerous great Warriors still around - too many to list in fact - they are the ones to inherit the mantle and fill the vacuum. But how long do you expect them to fight against the deafening ignorance?

    In my experience, so many of the three and four figure WSO gurus would rather I got one of my dev guys to show them how to do a low level $25K CPA blast to a URL targeted demographic than for me to take them step by step through how I built my businesses. Such is the level of dreams around here (and other places) these days.

    This for me is, indeed, lamentable.

    As Allen has always said, it's *your* community, *you're* all moderators, now. Until *you* do something about the "whining," the relentless crushing of dreams and damping of spirits, the nonsense passing itself (often aggressively) as legitimate business advice, tactics, strategies or indeed acumen amongst other things there will always be a vacuum.

    We did pretty well policing this kind of stuff in the past. We worked together, supported each other and did pretty damn well for ourselves. As a community. The reputation of the Warrior Forum was built upon a strong honest foundation. Not mere idle boasts.

    For many of us it is lamentable to see signs of the direction in which it appears to be heading.

    Tom
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by tomw View Post

      Hi Dennis,

      As I started the group lament, I'll single myself out.

      ...snip...
      Great post, Tom! You could (and I wish you would) start a new thread detailing how things were better before and what we need to do to improve them. I'm one of those that wasn't fortunate enough to be around in the "glory days" if you will. I try to contribute as I see ways, but even though I've earned my living online since 1999, I don't consider myself an expert of any kind. It wasn't until my main income site was hacked and I lost my income that I got into IM, so I still have a lot to learn.

      Thanks again for a very constructive post. I appreciate the time you took to write it. It's people like you that could put things back on a better track, if that's even possible.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    So...we know it's OUR forum, at least in a certain sense.

    Here's my question: Would it be okay to report flat-out whining threads as "off topic"?

    At least relegating them to the OT would take some wind of their blustery sails.

    ~Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Killer Joe
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      Here's my question: Would it be okay to report flat-out whining threads as "off topic"?

      At least relegating them to the OT would take some wind of their blustery sails.
      That idea sucks on so many levels...

      KJ
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  • Profile picture of the author lightcam
    Yeah isn't it crazy how we're all learning great copywriting techniques and open those intriguing messages at the same time.

    Like many, I've unsubscribed to just about all Gurus except for three that I'm focusing on.
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    • Profile picture of the author lightcam
      You know the biggest whinging forum globally would have to be talk-back radio.

      I never could understand how so many people could whinge about things they'd never be able to change.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Mindset is ultimately what all this whining comes down to.

      The person who has a successful mindset will observe what other marketers
      are doing and learn from those methods. They will either use them or reject
      them based on testing and/or personal preference. Some tactics may seem
      less "ethical" than others to some marketers and thus will be set aside. But
      the one thing these people won't do is come to a public forum and complain
      about these things unless something is being done that truly is borderline
      unethical or even over the line. An example was the 9 year old girl subject
      line one marketer used. This was appropriately called out so that hopefully
      this person will see that they crossed the line. But for the most part, the
      successful marketer does not complain about everyday marketing tactics.

      The person who doesn't have a successful oriented mindset will look for
      every possible reason to explain why they are not successful. It is never
      their fault. It is always these big name marketers who are at fault with
      their tactics that range from list building to product launching.

      These people spend most of their time justifying their failures by posting
      on forums about every possible thing you can think of. Personally, I don't
      see one day go by here where there isn't at least one thread that isn't
      started as a rant against somebody...no matter how innocuous the tactic
      might be. It doesn't matter. If it's something that the person can't duplicate
      they call it out as being a scam.

      And this isn't to say there aren't some bogus assumptions running around
      online perpetuated by some very unsavory characters. But while the
      successful mindset will only bring these to the attention of others in an
      effort to warn them about the dangers, the unsuccessful mindset will
      complain about it and everything else and blame it for all their failures.

      I can't even remember the last time I complained about anything that
      anybody did in regard to marketing. It doesn't matter what they do. I
      observe it and then decide if the tactic worth testing. If it is, I test it. If
      it works, I use it. If it doesn't work, I discard it. But I don't come running
      to this forum to tell everybody that so and so marketing method is BS
      just because it didn't work for me.

      Ultimately, I get more work done and build on my success while the whiner
      keeps whining and builds a self fulfilling prophecy of failure by neglecting
      their business by doing all this whining.

      Maybe if they put more time into actually working on their business, they'd
      find that they have less to whine about because they're actually making
      some money for a change.

      But for that to happen...the mindset has to change.

      And IMO, that is the toughest thing for people to do.
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  • Profile picture of the author Buildingfutures
    No joke Steven.

    Its the entire reason I took the year of 2009 off to do other things. I took the time to get my mind right when it came to this business.

    And thank god I sold cars during that time, there wasn't anything harder than that in my book.

    I had to change my thinking dramatically for those couple of months I was doing car sales. I couldn't be that whiner that I Was back in early 09, I just couldn't. There was no way I would ever be successful as a salesman that way.

    So, I learned quickly that I had to change my mindset, as my life and the lives of those I love kind of balanced on the fact of me getting paid. And I didn't get paid unless I sold cars.

    My first month I sold well over $100,000 worth of cars (which landed me only about a $2,000 check, some commission structure!) and one of those customers I sold two vehicles to.

    The power of an upsale for us as marketers online can be the difference between $47 and $297. I upsold a guy into a $60,000 sale.

    The best thing I learned while in that business was to upsell, whether it was plans or a new vehicle. I also learned that in order to make these sales, I had to be quick and sly, but I also had to be able to connect on a level with the customer that many people have a hard time doing.

    I could call any of the people I sold right now and they would love to talk to me.

    I can call a man who didn't even get to buy a car from me (my bosses were real jackasses to him and he took his business elsewhere.) who took me to dinner twice for working as best as I could with him.

    I've only recently began re-implementing myself into the IM world, and while I really have too much on my plate at once again, I find it a lot more invigorating to work on than I did a year ago.

    Mindset really does make a difference. Where a year ago I dreaded being on my beloved computer, now I can't stay off of it. Work to be done, and dammit I love to do my work.

    -Sean
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