Google Vs China

13 years ago

I am sure Google would never do this. China is a HUGE lucrative market for Google...I can bet that Google will come up with some sort of solution or arrangement with the Chinese government and stay active in the country.

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DogScout

13 years ago

Originally Posted by golweb

I am sure Google would never do this. China is a HUGE lucrative market for Google...I can bet that Google will come up with some sort of solution or arrangement with the Chinese government and stay active in the country.

not sure that 1st statement is accurate. It is a Chinese company that has a 70 share in China. And it isn't what the Chinese Gov does, to me, as to what that company does. When Google, Bing and Yahoo put disclaimers on their home pages that the search results were government censored, the Chinese company did so too. What they now do will be interesting.
With that said, this is probably off topic thread. Lol.

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addykho

13 years ago

But Google claims that China Market is Insignificant to them

How true is it.. I dont know.

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KirkMcD 13 years ago

Originally Posted by addykho

But Google claims that China Market is Insignificant to them How true is it.. I dont know.

They only earned $600 million there. When your overall earnings are over $22 billion, $600 million is insignificant.
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WD Mino

13 years ago

Woohoo we are entering the final days .awesome!

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Jason Perez O'Connor

13 years ago

China are extremist on a ridiculous scale

The fact Google complied to its list of rules, and China continued to hassle for more censorship should be enough reason for them to pull out.

That or it could be a publicity stunt by Google, as said by Baidu, but I very much doubt Google would try to tarnish its name with false claims.

I think they are now unfiltering the results but within the Law. Google still havn't gotten a grasp of Chinas potential, and are still lagging behind its competitor Baidu by 30%, still with China being a very high potential market I doubt Google did anything to upset them.

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Joshuajames

Banned 13 years ago

[DELETED]

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

Some folks are looking at the wrong end of this story. Sure, Google will follow through on their threat if China doesn't make the changes needed. Consider that the Chinese government appears to have already stolen some unspecified intellectual property from Google.

What we ought to be looking at is that a single company has the kind of influence that Da Goog has, and is willing to use it. If that leads to other firms pushing for changes, things could get very interesting.

China could opt for further isolation from the world. Or they could loosen things up, which is a very difficult thing to undo. The challenge they face is that they're dealing with private entities in a situation where they have full freedom to choose.

Sure, there may be some political pressure brought to bear. That's not an effective tool, though, if Brin wants to stick to his guns. The US government won't dare tell a company like this that they have to cave to Chinese demands. Not in this circumstance. All the usual Chinese bluster would be useless.

Wvoever did this really screwed the pooch, PR-wise. Had they stuck to intellectual property, they'd only have half the problems they'll have now, if that. Going after information on dissidents makes this a fight that just about every politically aware person will care about, along with the tech-types, IT firms, and business in general.

It also gives the firms whose businesses are damaged by Chinese pirates a socially acceptable reason to start pushing back in public ways. That could snowball.

This is one of those moments when a single person has the ability to change the world.

Sergey Brin is a very powerful man right now. What he chooses to do may well affect how Russia deals with their criminal gangs, how the US responds to Eastern European phishers, and what form our long term response to cyber-terrorism takes.

That's one big rock. If he throws it into the pool, it will be years before the ripples fade out.

Paul

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WD Mino

13 years ago

Russia and China will soon become allies in more ways then one. it is inevitable. I am getting excited but not for any reasons mentioned here.
Google will do what they have said they advise they already have begun with authorities etc and warning of the other companies. there is something as Brian said that is not being said and that is how it always is. we only know what they want us to know.
-WD

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Some folks are looking at the wrong end of this story. Sure, Google will follow through on their threat if China doesn't make the changes needed. Consider that the Chinese government appears to have already stolen some unspecified intellectual property from Google.

What we ought to be looking at is that a single company has the kind of influence that Da Goog has, and is willing to use it. If that leads to other firms pushing for changes, things could get very interesting.

China could opt for further isolation from the world. Or they could loosen things up, which is a very difficult thing to undo. The challenge they face is that they're dealing with private entities in a situation where they have full freedom to choose.

Sure, there may be some political pressure brought to bear. That's not an effective tool, though, if Brin wants to stick to his guns. The US government won't dare tell a company like this that they have to cave to Chinese demands. Not in this circumstance. All the usual Chinese bluster would be useless.

Wvoever did this really screwed the pooch, PR-wise. Had they stuck to intellectual property, they'd only have half the problems they'll have now, if that. Going after information on dissidents makes this a fight that just about every politically aware person will care about, along with the tech-types, IT firms, and business in general.

It also gives the firms whose businesses are damaged by Chinese pirates a socially acceptable reason to start pushing back in public ways. That could snowball.

This is one of those moments when a single person has the ability to change the world.

Sergey Brin is a very powerful man right now. What he chooses to do may well affect how Russia deals with their criminal gangs, how the US responds to Eastern European phishers, and what form our long term response to cyber-terrorism takes.

That's one big rock. If he throws it into the pool, it will be years before the ripples fade out.

Paul

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tomw

13 years ago

Originally Posted by WD Mino

Russia and China will soon become allies in more ways then one. it is inevitable.

Funny, I own a dev company in Mayakovskogo Ulitsa, St. Petersburg, actually in the same facility as Google and this is the first I've heard of this dramatic shift in Putin's *cough* sorry, Medvedev's foreign policy.

Tom

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WD Mino

13 years ago

You will see

-WD

Originally Posted by tomw

Funny, I own a dev company in Mayakovskogo Ulitsa, St. Petersburg, actually in the same facility as Google and this is the first I've heard of this dramatic shift in Putin's *cough* sorry, Medvedev's foreign policy.

Tom

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tomw 13 years ago

Originally Posted by WD Mino

You will see

-WD

Don't fall for US centred propaganda, my friend. Sino-Russian relations are all about Russia's determination to protect their far Eastern territories based upon the knowledge that The Chinese have designs on their former provinces.

Putin (via Gazprom) is placating them for now with energy in return for things not appropriate to go into on a US based forum, while at the the same time he has been 'quietly' expelling the Chinese *even* from Moscow and St. Petersburg for years...

The only real unity is in their mutual desire to 'deal with' growing domestic Muslim extremism.

Tom
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karlhadwen

13 years ago

Hmm..the guys over at China could always use Bing.

Just 'Saying.

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sbucciarel Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by karlhadwen

Hmm..the guys over at China could always use Bing.

Just 'Saying.

They don't have to. They already have Baidu, which has the majority of search engine market in China
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seobro

13 years ago

Google chose the side of freedom. Red China is still a communist dictatorship. This is like expecting a search engine not to censor in nazi germany. Remember the book burnings? They would burn books of jews. Technology changes, but people do not.

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ZhaoAnXin

13 years ago

As someone who has lived in China for years - I'm going to guess that China isn't going to budge.

The things they do and get away with are unbelievable to most people outside of the country...

Last year when there were troubles in the east turkestan type of areas, they cut off all electricity and phone lines to the city and sent the PLA in.

I've seen them do the same thing in at least 5 other cities in 2 years.

China is headed towards MASSIVE upheaval, and the people controlling all of the infrastructure and resources aren't going to give in without a massive fight. To Sergei, to FG, to democracy activists or ANYONE.

This is a situation that's going to get worse before it gets better.

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TravisOfferatti

13 years ago

China doesn't need Google, they are making it fine without them.

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sarkarkumar09

13 years ago

I believe google will make some way to the existing problems..and will continue its experience there...Chine !!

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eb219

13 years ago

Yeah heard about this - saw a news flash on how big G made the threat to leave China after finding out that the chinese gub were getting into the emails of human rights activists.

I cracked up when I heard the China response after G called them out, "oh we support an open internet" .... what an obtuse and indirect statement to make .... but guess it's still a good reply coming from communist dictatorship. OK and it doesn't matter either that the reply itself is complete BS, as they've become worse with the filtering of foreign sites than ever as their gub technology increases ... but hey ...

At least they SOUND somewhat human saying it, right?

Big G +1

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kindsvater

13 years ago

I'm betting on China.

There's something else going on that hasn't been brought to light. Not sure what it is, but some gmail accounts get hacked so Google threatens to withdraw from the China search market?

There's a disconnect between the two.

What, someone can hack into some email accounts of US citizens and Google will withdraw from the US market?

I'm not buying the official story as presented by Google on its blog.

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eb219

13 years ago

Originally Posted by kindsvater

I'm betting on China.

There's something else going on that hasn't been brought to light. Not sure what it is, but some gmail accounts get hacked so Google threatens to withdraw from the China search market?

There's a disconnect between the two.

What, someone can hack into some email accounts of US citizens and Google will withdraw from the US market?

I'm not buying the official story as presented by Google on its blog.

Definite disconnect in logic.

Albeit China's long history of abuses, *somewhat dissimilar from the USA, would most likely have potentially fatal consequences towards the intended recipients of that gub hacking.

Human rights activist or not, they may get prison over here, but over there they'll get tortured, killed, disappear ... 'take one for humanity' as they say. In the eyes of the US public they probably knew they had to take a stance (supposing that's what really happened).

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

Brian,

There's something else going on that hasn't been brought to light. Not sure what it is, but some gmail accounts get hacked so Google threatens to withdraw from the China search market?

There's a disconnect between the two.

What, someone can hack into some email accounts of US citizens and Google will withdraw from the US market?

Did you notice the part about Google's intellectual property being stolen? And how that's part of a massive data theft process originating in China?

And I didn't see anywhere that it said the Gmail accounts belonged to American citizens... In fact, it specifically said they were Chinese human rights activists. Whether they live in China or not at the moment wasn't specified, but that's a major threat to personal safety for those people and/or their families either way.

Yeah. Based on what I've heard about him, I can see Brin wanting to take this sort of action. Page too, if maybe not so much.

Paul

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kindsvater

13 years ago

I'll have to re-read that Google post. Don't recall Google talking about its intellectual property being stolen. Rather, it was a hack job to get into activists' email accounts.

My guess about the story we're not hearing about: it was the Chinese government infiltrating Google, and it was a lot more serious (and widespread than gmail) than any of us know.

Fairly common for major companies to not want to divulge security breaches.

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

For those who'd like a little more info, here are a couple other stories. The second is the more illuminating of the two.

Google Warns of China Exit Over Hacking - WSJ.com

China's Secret Cyberterrorism - Page 1 - The Daily Beast

And that's just the tip of the riceberg...

Paul

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Martin Luxton

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

For those who'd like a little more info, here are a couple other stories. The second is the more illuminating of the two.

Google Warns of China Exit Over Hacking - WSJ.com

China's Secret Cyberterrorism - Page 1 - The Daily Beast

And that's just the tip of the riceberg...

Paul

So China may already have hacked into Google's algorithm?

That could make an interesting WSO

Google Crack: Renegade Chinese Cyberspy Reveals How Beijing Made $1,000,000 AN HOUR With Adwords

Martin

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Marian Berghes

13 years ago

If google is censored in china that means that only certain companies with certain products can use AdWords right? And that makes google less money...just saying.

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Jack Martin

13 years ago

As I understand it, the Chinese government snooped into some gmail accounts.

Google responds by insisting that the gov't stop censoring search results.

There's no real connection between the two issues. China could allow uncensored search, and still snoop into emails. Or, they could censor search and stop snooping in email.

Google is pulling a misdirection trick here. Just like a magician does when he waves one hand to get you to look at it, while he palms the coin into his pocket with the other hand.

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

Jack,

Google is pulling a misdirection trick here. Just like a magician does when he waves one hand to get you to look at it, while he palms the coin into his pocket with the other hand.

Did you actually READ the articles that were linked to?

Paul

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Kay King 13 years ago

I think the reaction to google's announcement will be positive from those who understand what has and is happening. The high ground google is claiming is contrary to the profit motives it was criticized for when it entered china.

Google bashers at that time accused google of putting profit above people by bowing to the demands of china for censorship. I thought at the time google was counting on restrictions easing with public demand in time. Now those same people will complain about google pulling out of China.

The Chinese government wants to filter all info going into china but has no concern for the cyberattacks coming out of china.

And, yes, I do think google will pull the plug if it needs to. And I think it will probably need to.

kay
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Jack Martin

13 years ago

Plus: where was Google's outrage (or American public outrage) when the US government snooped into emails?

(Google something like "FISA email scandal" for that)

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caseyzeman

13 years ago

Google isn't even China's main search engine, so why is this so much of an issue.
there are other search engines in the sea.

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kindsvater

13 years ago

From the 2nd article Paul linked to:

"As a precondition to doing business in China, several years ago Microsoft was required to provide the government the source codes for the company's Office software. The Chinese State Planning Commission contended that Microsoft's Windows operating system was a secret tool of the U.S. government and demanded Microsoft instruct Chinese software engineers on inserting their own software into Window's applications.

That gave the Chinese Army's cyberwarfare department what computer hackers dub a "skeleton key," allowing them access to almost every networked private business, military, and government computer in the U.S. Among the Chinese Army-backed Microsoft attacks, the FBI report includes successful forays against computer systems at the State Department, Commerce Department, the FBI, and the Naval War College, among others."

Thanks Microsoft.

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Martin Luxton

13 years ago

Originally Posted by kindsvater

From the 2nd article Paul linked to:

"As a precondition to doing business in China, several years ago Microsoft was required to provide the government the source codes for the company's Office software. The Chinese State Planning Commission contended that Microsoft's Windows operating system was a secret tool of the U.S. government and demanded Microsoft instruct Chinese software engineers on inserting their own software into Window's applications.

That gave the Chinese Army's cyberwarfare department what computer hackers dub a "skeleton key," allowing them access to almost every networked private business, military, and government computer in the U.S. Among the Chinese Army-backed Microsoft attacks, the FBI report includes successful forays against computer systems at the State Department, Commerce Department, the FBI, and the Naval War College, among others."

Thanks Microsoft.

That could also be part of the reason Google want to pull out. Obviously China is happy for western companies to set up shop there because it makes industrial espionage easier when you're doing it on your own soil.

The other consideration could be Baidu.

How about turning the conventional wisdom on its head? Maybe it's not Baidu worried about Google's Chinese market share, but Google being afraid Baidu will 'borrow' all its intellectual property to become number 1 worldwide. With Chinese government backing that is a big possibility. Any government would have wet dreams about owning the information Google has access to.

Martin

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