Visa Cracks Down On Forced Continuity...

by 121 replies
153
Just got this email from Ryan Lee...

Hey Andrew,
I usually wouldn't interrupt a magazine launch to give
you industry news, but this is BIG.
Visa and Mastercard are now shutting down sites with
free trial offers and forced continuity.
I have the proof and a letter from my merchant account. If
you have any continuity program, please watch this right now:
http://budurl.com/deathofc
Get on and give me your thoughts.
Stay tuned as I get more information.
Rock 'on (but be careful when rocking!)
Ryan
#main internet marketing discussion forum #continuity #shuts #visa
  • Nice to see a fellow Ryan Lee follower in here. I follow him to and got his email about that.
  • I dont own any but I guess that I can see why Visa and Mastercard are now shutting down sites with free trial offers and forced continuity. Even though most state that if they dont cancel with in a certain time period I bet Visa and Mastercard are getting swamped with refunds request.
    I would like to see the reaction to this since it may affect my future plans to own some.
  • Good and it's about time.

    I don't care how good a marketing ploy it is, Forced continuity is unethical and underhand. Surprised they haven't done something about it a long time ago

    Kim
    • [ 6 ] Thanks
    • [1] reply
    • Kim -

      Instead of blaming the "bad marketers" don't you think you have a personal responsibility to check out offers. I mean I know things are a bit different in the UK than in the States but I have to think that if you are applying for something for "free" you should know that there are strings attached and find out what those strings are.

      More importantly, a marketer should disclose - here's the deal - this is a free trial but 30 days from now you will be charged X for Y?

      Tim
      • [2] replies
  • Not as bad as it seems.

    "Terms should be disclosed in a conspicuous manner, clearly placed and labeled on websites in a location that indicates the importance and relevance to the transaction. Fonts and colors must be easy to view."

    "Material terms must be disclosed prior to completion of the transaction and before a financial obligation is incurred by the consumer."

    "Customers must provide affirmative consent to any offer, examples include a mandatory "I Agree..." statement checkbox, where the customer is acknowledging the Terms and Conditions of the offer and consents to be entered into continuity program as a result of completing the transaction. Pre-checked boxes do not qualify as affirmative consent."

    "Merchants must not discourage or make difficult in any way the disclosed cancellation procedures and all cancellation requests must be honored in accordance with the stated terms of the transaction. "

    Transparency is the key ! If transparency is your normal modus operandi then this should not be a problem.
    • [ 5 ] Thanks
  • I think this could be grossly misunderstood just like the whole FTC bore.

    Visa are simply cracking down on sneaky, deceptive marketing that goes out of their way to trick the person into continuity, hence them filing a complaint or chargeback once their card gets billed.

    Here's a good article on it:

    Debit Cards on the Internet — Safer Thanks to Move by Visa

    Basically, just make it clear of your intentions, and make sure you don't say it's "free" when actually, it's not free at all. You must also exchange tangeable goods for money received.

    Just another legal requirement, not a banning of the marketing method at all.
    • [ 3 ] Thanks
  • Just like all the Google slaps, there will be innocent victims. Too bad the bad apples runined the whole lot.
  • Thanks for the heads up. Very interesting and I'll be looking into this further to see exactly what steps Visa and Mastercard intend to take. Sounds like they are specifically targeting certain types of practices rather than free trial offers and forced continuity per se. After all, I pay a lot of things on 'forced continuity' via credit card - from child care fees to gym memberships to various other services.
    • [1] reply
    • I would like to see them enforce this, without arbitrarily banning all subscription and continual type payments.

      It looks like this is a money saving move because of the deluge of customer service requests.

      Visa/MC would become a defacto FTC type regulator, and investigator - and I don't see this surviving serious court challenges.

      The best they can do is deny merchant ability for targeted sites and products.

      People are still ultimately responsible for their own buying decisions.
      • [1] reply
  • Its about friggin time.

    If they did this say, a year ago we might not have the new FTC regulations coming into play now.


    • [1] reply
    • I love how people are passing off PERSONAL Responsibility of the buyers. I don't have a forced site, hell I don't even have anything but a $7 membership site but I still laugh at people who rely on others to protect them from themselves.

      Tim
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      • [1] reply
  • Shouldn't this be more accurately called "Visa shuts down HIDDEN forced continuity"?

    If you disclose your deal, and then make yourself accessible and responsive to cancellation requests, who cares?

    Non issue.
    • [ 7 ] Thanks
    • [4] replies
    • Well said.
    • I wonder if they'll let me claw-back all those fees I've paid and finally allow me to afford that moped I've always dreamed about...:rolleyes:

      I'm keeping my good eye peeled on this one...

      KJ
    • Exactly.

      Can you imagine what would happen to NetFlix or Columbia House if this were true?


    • Not true at all. They are shutting down ANY forced continuity (and even regular continuity from what I've seen), starting with the big guys. Even the offers that have Full Disclosure multiple times on the Sales Letter as well as on the Checkout page - gone. There's no telling where it will stop. Even that $7/month membership might get shut down, unless it's going through PayPal of course.
      • [2] replies
  • Does anybody have more info regarding the subject? I will soon start a continuity program, and part of my conversion strategy was based on a $1 trial offer for 14 days and then begin billing the regular monthly fee. Is this still possible?
    • [2] replies
    • Just follow some of the links provided on this thread and you will realize that as long as transparency is the norm for your operations then you should be fine.
      The OP's title should have read a little different.
    • I am going to take a punch at this, my not being a lawyer, I'll just give an opinion.

      The problem is not people like Mike Filsame, an IM who uses forced continuity and provides clear and easily accessible information on how to unsubscribe, but with those who hide their unsubscribe information and bleed members who are trying to unsubscribe.

      I had an experience about a year ago. I subscribed to several sites which offered free or low-priced trial entries with "you can cancel anytime" clauses. I joined four or five within a day or two to check out their material. As I received their confirming emails, I moved them to a safe place and when the time came, I was able to look them up and unsubscribe. All but one. It was 'free' for 30 days and then billed $15 per month.

      When I joined, it showed a phone number in the TOS I agreed to when I paid to use to cancel. When I canceled the other subscriptions, all was well, except for this site did not even have an unsubscribe link anywhere in it. I had to wait until the card was billed and found the charge. Then it was someone's initials that weren't related to the site. I had to have my bank request the contact information from the CC. When I finally got it, I called the number and they cancelled the subscription and very politely told me the charges would be reversed at the next billing date, or something to that effect. I waited and no refund. I called again and they said they would reverse it within the next 5 business days. It wasn't reversed so when I called back, they told me the TOS said they don't make refunds. When I went to the bank to reverse the charges, I was informed it was one week past the period I could do so.

      $15 lesson for me, I'll bet this new action by V/MC just cost them a whole lot more.

      The reason I mentioned Filsame was because he ran a $7.00 special for the first month of his program. There were numerous places he mentioned how to unsubscribe. He even had a video explaining not only how to unsubscribe, but why reversing the charges on your card would not stop the continuity and end up costing you about $100 more because he would have to prove that the charges were legit and you would have to pay for that time. When I decided to cancel, it was easy to find the information with the phone number and the staff was very cooperative. It went as smooth as silk.

      As for continuity programs, I don't remember which, but the one I liked best actually had you setup your auto payments thru PayPal. Then when you wanted to unsubscribe, you told PP to cancel the monthly payments.

      Customer Controlled Continuity. I like that one.
      • [1] reply
  • I only popped in here to reply to a few PMs, but if genuine this news has *really* made my day!

    Tom
  • This is pertaining to hidden and forced continuity I received a number of emails today. It is not however for any continuity such as a membersite with pricing up front.

    This is good news for us membersite owners

    The crap that has been flung at the world of im is finally starting to wash away unethical bull#### tactics are still going to be used however. now there is something real that can be done about it aside from the FTC the cc comanies can act Immediately
    YAY!
    -WD
  • Nothing in business should be hidden. If your going to charge someone x amount of dollars they need to know that. If your not going to release them they need to know that too. Why don't they? well people would not be so quick to sign up now would they? It all comes down to integrity before profit. Transparency before shadiness. Simple ethical business practices is all it boils down to. this indeed is a very good thing. as Thomas mentioned above .
    -WD
  • WONDERFUL!

    I don't mind forced continuity programs, but the trickery some use is uncalled for.

    Mike Filsame did the best job of revealing what the charges would be,when they would be charged and how to stop the charges! When I called his staff was polite and cooperative.

    Another program was cancelled, but billed the first month anyway. Then they said they would refund, but didn't. Then they said they would but it might take x weeks. By then it was out of the CC terms and I couldn't reverse the charges.

    Other marketers tell how easy it is to cancel as you are buying the program, but unless you go thru the process of paying for it again, you won't find those instructions.

    I also hope it hits the 'discount' liars. They tell you that you can have the full priviliges of their program for only a fraction of the cost and then for monthly payments. However, when you pay, you only get a small portion of the program 'unlocked' until you make your next month's payment. Then by the time you get the full program, you paid an extra month's payment.

    Put them out of business. Let honest marketers make an honest living without being tagged along with the scammers.

    [end rant]

    I wonder if this will affect Video Professor, my insurance company and my bank who always send 'checks' or other such nonsense that trigger a monthly fee against my card.
  • One thing I just found out this is also pertaining to the "free plus shipping" LOL

    @Thomas.

    You and I are on the same page in regards to that garbage . I am a cheerleader for this stuff to be stopped and I frequently make that known. Glad to see others standing on the same platform.
    Thanks
    -WD
  • the comments saying forced continuity is a scam, unethical and whatnot are COMPLETE NONSENSE.

    and you call yourselves marketers? give me a break.

    how in the world can you say that and actually believe it?

    gym memberships are ALL forced continuity, are they all scams?

    gunthy renker uses forced continuity, they're a multibillion dollar company, are they scams too?

    I could go on and on here...

    Eben pagan for example, every one of his DYD products comes with forced continuity, is he a scammer?

    no.

    You forget, the customer can EASILY say no to the offer. If they don't want the offer, they don't have to get it.

    No one is forcing a customer to take a forced continuity offer. The customer can EASILY call/email support to cancel.

    Now, in the situations where you do call/email to cancel and they don't, that has NOTHING to do with forced continuity, thats just flat out scamming people.

    i run a cpa style supplement offer.... we do our own support in house and refund/cancel ANYONE who asks.... we don't run any monkey business, plus you don't want those types of relationships with your customers... you want happy ones right?

    99% of the calls we get to cancel/complain, the customer NEVER read anything on the site... and we make it very clear its an autoship in several locations on the offer page AND on the order page.

    the visitors only see free trial and think they're getting something for free.... they see free and thats all they notice. we walk them through the site and they are like... i didn't read that, or see it.

    so the consumer is largely at fault as well.... look, its easy to play victim, but YOU are the one taking the offer, its your responsibility to know what you're getting.

    Its no different than buying a car or house or whatnot... you gotta read what you're getting.

    but the scammers need to get whats coming to them.
    • [ 4 ] Thanks
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    • Banned
      I don't think forced continuity is a scam in itself. It is how it is promoted and how the terms are disclosed that would make it a scam.

      Can the customer easily cancel? Strange because I heard otherwise on a lot of cpa rebill offers.

      Makes you wonder why the FTC got involved if it was that easy to cancel. Heck why would VISA and MC get all worked up?

      BTW, my gym is not forced continuity.

      I do agree with what you said. There is a reason for what has happened. It is unfortunate for the companies that have been actively demonstrating ethical continuity programs.
      • [1] reply
  • I had a big player in here almost get me w/ a hidden continuity plan. The sad part is I was right on the order page to put in my info on a high priced piece of software they were selling. I actually wanted to buy the software, however they added a continuity program to the deal right at the last minute on the order page, without an option to opt out of the continuity part.

    Needless to say, I will not look at another offer this person has no matter how good it is. There's no way I can trust that this person won't try to stiff me w/ a hidden extra charge again.
    • [ 1 ] Thanks
  • Good point Gary. sorry you experienced it but this is exactly why I stand against that stuff. It inevitably sends a ripple effect causing feelings like you experienced and the damage to ones reputation.

    Thanks for sharing that.
    -WD
  • This move by MasterCard and VISA isn't just targeting the online CPA scammers and the guys who think it's okay to trick your customers. It's going after guys like FreeCreditReport.com, who aren't giving away a free credit report at all.
    • [3] replies
    • I have been working on a continuity site for some time this is good to know. I wonder how they would even know?
    • It appears most of the comments in this thread miss the point. My take on what Visa/MC are cracking down on are the scammers who say, "get our $79 widget for FREE, just pay the $2.89 postage. Take 14 days to decide if you want to keep it, and if not, send it back, no questions asked."

      Except that 3 days after you place an order, they debit your credit card for $79, then leave it to you to fight the system to get your money back, and cancel the scammer's right to debit your CC every month from this day forward.

      This is what Visa/MC are cracking down on, and rightly so. Google has done the same thing with companies using Google's name to front the exact same scheme.
      • [ 1 ] Thanks
      • [1] reply
    • If it clearly stated that there is a continuity program to follow, I have no problem with that!
      So the credit card companies are doing the right thing in my opinion. I am absolutely disgusted where some marketers hide it in fine prints so that the first you know of your spending is when you check your statement.
      Slightly off topic but another practice upset me. I was with the SuccessUniversity MLM. When it was sold to some Travel Company, I was so disgusted by their manipulation to delay my membership cancellation. I first had to Email a department to cancel my membership after searching it high and low for where to cancel. Then I received a reply which told me I have to phone such such number. I don't know what they would have gained by delaying this way except pissing me off and tell me it was not a good company and give MLM company a bad bad name.
      Thanks for the info, useful to know.
  • I think continuity is a good business model and it's fine to use it - as long as you state the terms.

    Something simple like "you will get billed XX$ per month after your trial ends unless you cancel before" will probably save everyone - vendors, customers and credit card companies - a lot of trouble
  • Seems simple to me for those that offer the free trial continuity. Instead of auto charging at the end of the trial cut the user off from your content, members area what have you and offer a payment button at the end of the trial.

    If they want to continue then THEY the consumer decides that. If not, great, you just saved hassle of having to do a refund / cancel.

    Arguement to that is lost revenue etc.. from those that do not go through the process of cancelling BUT I think that is the deal here with the FTC and Visa / MC. The consumer isn't canceling with the merchant OR they gave up trying to and just go directly to their credit card and report to attorney generals, FTC etc...

    You can be above board doing any of the methods but the bad eggs out there have caused such a backlash that everyone is being impacted.

    - T
  • thomas.

    the ones that weren't canceling or didn't disclose anywhere visible on the page what the deal was are scammers, plain and simple.

    Not all the cpa offers are however...

    I've seen cpa type offers which were RTF's (risk free trials) for like $7 or so, then rebill in 14 for i think, $79.... ok thats high, but whatever.

    here's where it gets interesting...

    They automatically add you to a $9.95 continuity... AND a $4.95 continuity.... which were very cleverly not easy to see unless you REALLY looked.

    THAT IS SKETCHY.

    Thats different than having a forced continuity model. Look at proactive, thats a HUGE forced continuity model.

    If you want to cancel, you can call them and thats it.

    These scammers weren't doing this, thats like you're flat out stealing from people.

    Not cool at all.
  • If you were going to Start a membership site,

    does this affect membership sites in any other way? (besides Stopping the forced free continuity), but does it affect membership sites in any other ways
    • [2] replies
    • It's about time!

      Maybe companies can actually make a good, quality product that people will like so they don't need to use a continuity charge system. Their customers will actually like the product so much that they themselves choose to pay for more of the product.

      What a concept!

      Hopefully half the offers from CPA networks won't be highly searched with the term 'scam' after them. Know what I mean? Type in Premium White Pro into google, and "Premium White Pro Scam" comes up as a suggestion......
      • [ 1 ] Thanks

    • No this is not referring to membership sites. forced continuity is where you can receive gift x if you sign up now for site x

      It is a conditional gift =forcing them to sign up to the continuity program in order to receive said gift.

      Hidden continuity is where you have a fee like a 1$ trial that also has a charge of say 47 to be recurred monthly but they don't see it in the offer it is "hidden" somehow not plain and not clear.
      =Disgusting tactic.

      If you are to start a membersite. Make sure you have your pricing up front.
      have your disclaimer clearly visible not hidden with a #cccccc font.
      Be honest and you will have nothing to worry about not legal advice I am not a lawyer just a site owner I am not worried about this it is really a positive thing for us owners
      -WD
  • I am on one list where I have received at least 25 different product offers since Christmas that start with "Today I have great gift for you. Because you are subscriber in good standing you get _________ with Master Resell Rights for free."

    The first $97 charge is waived and and then the cost is $97 per month after that.

    Can you imagine if someone signs up for even five of those offers and doesn't remember or realize he needs to cancel? Pity the info-addict who buys into all 25!
    • [2] replies
    • The person who signs up to all of those, or who doesn't remember, or realize he/she needs to cancel is a moron ...

      And, to be honest, that person shouldn't have the power to ruin things for legitimate business owners because they're too dumb, or too lazy, to have read the terms that, based on what you're saying here, seem to have been pretty clearly defined.

      They're also hurting consumers who might no longer be able to get access to products that would have otherwise come with a VERY high price tag, had it not been an option to offer a continuity option.

      I know that most people are on the "continuity is evil" bandwagon ... but I'm on the, "stupid customers are evil" bandwagon.

      And yes, I realize that there are PLENTY of businesses that abused continuity, and that's what we may all end up paying the price for ... stupid people, and abusive companies.

      Isn't it wonderful that we all get to pay the price for what other people did?

      Gary Ambrose
    • If someone buys something and doesn't remember or "realize" the terms, they should
      have their purchasing privileges revoked.

      Sure there are plenty of scammers that get over on unsuspecting consumers, but in many cases it's ignorance on the consumer's part that causes these issues in the first place.

      The customer is always right. But that doesn't mean they are always smart.

      - Jason
  • Banned
    [DELETED]
    • [1] reply
    • Who decides what is Hidden ?

      TOS on another page?

      Fonts too small?

      Someone simply too dense to understand the TOS?

      Outright fraud is another matter, and already addressed.

      How much do you think this "crackdown" is going to cost in additional merchant fees?

      The term Hidden is the issue, how will they determine, and enforce this compliance?
      • [1] reply
  • I think the problem is not with forced continuity either..it's more to be hidden continuity.

    Like what Ryan Lee said: tell your prospects and customers 15 times that there is continuity involved, and this wouldn't be so much of an issue anymore.

    Alternatively, take the bold move! Take a look at controversial file sharing site rapidshare.

    They claim their goal is to create a pool of clients that are committed and loyal to their services. What did they do?

    They outrightly tell them that they will NOT charge them automatically monthly, and instead, requests for them to extend their account every month.

    THAT is a really good business strategy and marketing strategy indeed to show their confidence in quality.

    Of course, their service is still, no doubt, controversial with the outrightward stepping on piracy.
  • I once saw a CPA Manberry RFT with quad stack continuity, and additional continuity stacks in it's upsells to other offers.

    It was like credit card rape.
    • [ 1 ] Thanks
    • [1] reply
    • I think about 4 people on the forum might have understood what you just said ...

      G
  • Hi

    It really ticks me off that us marketers get the blame for "ripping people off"...
    Some marketers are good, honest and hardworking,
    its the other marketers that don't really care about the service they provide and just want peoples money

    Basically, if you have a forced continuity program then please clearly state it on your sales page, that way you are covering yourself and not being accused of providing false information and ripping people off

    I have had consumers who get so excited about what is actually the FREE gift, they go really crazy and go for the offer and then when their cc is charged they blame us marketers for ripping them off....

    I always think its best practice to put your prices and offers up front, so they know what they will be getting or paying for.

    Kish
  • I was offering some **** "Free Trial Offers" on my blog
    Colon Health Cleanse

    I would get comments on my blog from people asking me stop billing them. The companies just keep sending product and billing month after month.

    The credit card companies were probably losing money having to manually stop the forced continuity.

    I've pulled most or all of the offers because I got so many complaints. I can't imagine how many Visa/Mastercard got.

    How can they "crack down"? If everything is clearly disclosed, they cannot stop a legal transaction. More disclosure is on the way!
  • Gary, you're dead on right with the comments....

    steve's talking about signing up to 1, that has hidden continuity with 4 programs then upsells with more continuity.... thats bad man.

    i heard something like over 35,000 complaints.... and i wont address the 'continuity is evil' comments because they are just ignorant and dumb.

    people not being able to cancel has NOTHING to do with being in continuity, it has EVERYTHING to do with scam artists blatantly stealing money from people.
  • The thing that really makes me angry about forced continuity is when you can sign up instantly online to be enrolled in the program, but they make you call or send mail to cancel it.

    THAT is serious deception. If they can make it that easy to join it, they can make it that easy to cancel it. But they don't, because they hope people will be too lazy to jump through the hoops and just keep the subscription.

    When it becomes easier to initiate a chargeback than to cancel the recurring transaction, consumers will often take the easier route.
  • if you are running a free trial offer, your merchant account will get shut down.... ours was just flagged.

    seems like the RFT model is under attack.

    we're trying to see what they want to get compliant, but it seems like no one can tell you whats up yet.

    we're in limbo.
    • [4] replies
    • Hey All... it's been awhile since I've communicated. At least there remains a group of 'true' marketers and not many whiners in this forum (thread).

      This subject is frying my brain...

      (herein lies my subjective input)

      As noted from another blog post mention... "Does this mean that now I can get the swim suit issue without taking an entire year of Sports Illustrated? (et.al.)"

      Kidding aside...
      Let's face it, this does take place off-line and the on-line versions have their variables, indeed. I'd bet a good deal of us had taken up the $7.95 cd s&h offers, only to jam in 30 free days of continuity review, thereafter to reach the merchant account's desk just in time to 'cancel' out of our commitment.

      And that's cool. That's what the cancel clause is all about... if you chose to go that way.

      If the front-side (landing page) copy fully exposes the forced continuity fee, hence the 30 days (or so)... then it appears to be totally legit and a great and fair marketing practice. It, however, must retain total copy exposure and the fullest respect of its cancellations upheld.

      And the recent mention of 'optional' Continuity is cute... Kind-of-like web 2.-0? Anyway, it appears that 'full exposure' would justify an honorable mention for such digital nomenclature.

      And, what of Optional Continuity anyway?... Is this just another way to test the system with an 'optional' way to apply forced continuity, until Visa/MC (who made them the only bank cards anyway?) decides that these optional ways don't meet their standards?

      mmmm,
      Hopefully, we can address the forced (the m/cards reference to such as 'negative continuity' seems a little wacky) continuity issue with some fairness in descriptive laws issued by the merchant hierarchy, with full understanding of its applications thereof.

      "It would seem futile to cut-loose, or otherwise shut-down a perfectly good and if used with correctly, an acceptable and powerful marketing approach!"

      Also note such reference to Capital One's thoughts. They are 'not' complaining! Their 'possible' re-wording of such 'continuity' language may force Cap1 to comply with VISA/MC. However, one would think that with reasonable offerings, along with openness within its copywriting, why not just let the marketplace decide it's viability...

      If it is exposed properly, (ala) like 'the new FTC testimonial laws' - why not let the market dictate forced continuity's ultimate fate?!

      Bottom line... true marketers understand that 'revealing' your options for continuity and cancel 'up-front' makes for a legitimate marketing program.

      Don't throw the baby out with the bath water just because a few have abused the limits...

      Look, I believe that this 'is' a great marketing strategy. I mean... come on, are we marketers or whooosies? Honest copywriting up-front should allow 'exposed' forced continuity programs to continue.

      Appreciate reading 'pro-active' viewpoints from you all!...
      best,
      -Michael Lofton
      mailto:michael@customercount.com
      • [1] reply
    • Just got word from not one, not two, but three different guys that their accounts have been shut down entirely ... with no recourse.

      This just got VERY, VERY bad.

      G
      • [ 1 ] Thanks
    • This new event was triggered in a panic somehow. The CC companies will probably be hitting all kinds of legitimate places because the employee has no clue as to what is an infraction or not.

      In Atlanta, I believe the House Flipping was made illegal because some scammers got caught doing something different and called it flipping.

      It will be difficult for membership sites to get approved and a whole bunch of other practices will be hard to get thru until or maybe even after the dust settles.

      The problem with these decisions is that the people enforcing them seldom have a clue as to what another industry is doing so they flag it as illegal or against the terms.

    • Miz let's talk about it this weekend in Vegas.

      I have a tip that can help. Just remind me.

      PS. If you want to know some of the people who contributed to this industry-changing issue in a big way, I think you need to look at Jesse Willms and The "Utah" cats.

      Our national TV syndicated network CBC in Canada went to Alberta to investigate Jesse - ABC has as well.
      • [ 1 ] Thanks
  • Ever since Clickbank offered a recurring billing facility, they have always stuck to the minimum first payment being $4.95 and have refused (despite many requests from marketers) to allow any sort of free trial period whatsoever.

    I always wondered why as I'm sure they know it increases conversions, but it seems it is now obvious - they could see what was coming.
  • This guy had some foresight to bring this out about 10 months ago and looks like he hit the nail right on the head.
    YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.
  • Banned
    [DELETED]
    • [1] reply
    • This is not necessarily true (meaning your statement of ALL continuity).

      Continuity is fine as long as:

      - There is no free trial
      - There is no "Free plus Shipping"
      - The STARTING price is the same as the recurring price
      - The order form is NOT pre-checked (the customer MUST add to cart)
      - The terms are CLEARLY spelled out and not confusing or hidden
      - Cancellation policy clearly defined
      - There now must be a "Confirmation" checkbox at the terms that the buyer needs to check so they "understand"

      We got this directly from our merchant provider. Anyone having their recurring shut down most likely had one of those items above. They were not given an opportunity to update the site and change things.

      Just shut down.
      • [ 4 ] Thanks
  • Thank You Mike for clearing that up
    -WD
  • i've been on the phone with our processor back and forth all day yesterday....

    here's whats REALLY up.

    they don't want any free trials.... the low 1st payment and a higher recurring payment.

    thats a big no no.

    I believe you have to offer the trial for the same price each month, no first payment like $5 or whatnot.

    i believe fixed term continuity is better than unlimited

    Higher priced front ends with lower priced continuity is ok (I believe it's gotta be optional, but not sure)

    1 click upsells i think are gonna have issues.

    They're still not sure what the exact deal is, but will know more in the hours/days ahead.
    • [ 4 ] Thanks
    • [1] reply
    • Updated the terms on my running offer, lets see what sort of effect this has on conversions.
      • [1] reply
  • this is nothing new.. I've been in the industry for along time. These things cycle all the time.

    But basically every merchant processor has their own set of rules you must abide. There is absolutly nothing wrong with Free or smaller trial offers. You just have to be upfront and clear about it and not tricky.

    I have burned 3 different merchant accounts. They all have different rules about this. Just keep your chargebacks below their recommendations
    • [1] reply
    • What??????

      Ya you know what your talking about I can tell
      That is why hundreds of businesses in the last 48 hrs have been shut down because it happens all the time and is no big deal right??
      -ridiculous comment
      -WD
      • [1] reply
  • No one has mentioned the affects this can have on customers of the services. If they were happy with it and wanted the service then I guess they will have to make alternative arrangements to continue the service?
    Will this have a ripple affect that will include damages to customers that may not be able to receive the service no more?
  • totally agree with visa and master card on this...

    now.. who is going to do something about MAIL-IN REBATE????

    while we are at it.. we may need to set up a rule of fine print.. like minimum contrast and font size..
  • It is very bad news for that people who follow the right way and it is very good news for those who misuse it badly, one day it will happen because as population increases more bad things happens in the world.

    But after FTC became so strong the whole internet thing is changing day by day, as you can see that Google have banned so many user, Google have slapped so many user and I was one of them but never mind rules are rules.

    I think from now onwards people will start using third party like Paypal, alert pay and so on to go with the trial version, if visa or mastercard stops it than the merchant will face big time problem and theirs sales will be dropped and dropped in conversion.

    But everything happens for good thing...

    Thanks for sharing it
    Alam
  • Google is fine with rebills. In fact when I chatted with their rep they told me that if you have a checkbox on the page where people enter their information and they can't continue without checking it to agree with the terms then it's perfectly legal. The problem was with the companies that charged like the 2nd day after they filled out the form for full price of the monthly deal. But FTC is going to make one general rule now for everyone and destroy many businesses in the process. It's a shame. I hope the legit businesses will fight this!
  • Ultimately, right now it's panic time. Accounts ARE being shut down without warning. But things will shake out in time and clearer "rules" will be put forth.

    Right now, I advise erring on the side of caution until that happens, or you risk losing your merchant account.
  • This is from Powerpay

    http://www.powerpay.biz/docs/MCA-PowerPay.pdf

    Dean
    • [ 1 ] Thanks
  • I think good on them, if your not disclosing your full terms and condictions your niot an ethical business.

    "Do unto other as you wish they do unto you"

    The Golden Rule is an ethical code that states one has a right to just treatment, and a responsibility to ensure justice for others. It is also called the ethic of reciprocity.

    Would you do it to your grandma?
  • The amount of pure misinformation here is incredible.

    First of all don't read, listen, or watch anything by the "guru's" on this subject because it's all BS.

    Second of all don't listen to the majority of people here who feel the need to speak on a subject they know nothing about.

    Banks are in it for the profit. That's all you need to know. Some RFT [risk free trials] were getting out of hand becoming quad stacked with forced continuity. That means when you sign up your credit card will be billed x times monthly for four, seemingly different, things.

    Visa and Mastercard both needed to start doing charge backs and spent many hours with consumers understandably upset and confused. It got to the point where it wasn't economically feasible to do this - they then started to shut down merchanting accounts for some big re-bills.

    Note: This is old news. This happened on New Years eve. I was out having a good time and when I woke up in the morning, checked my stats, and my biggest offers were down. This is no longer an issue but I'll continue anyway.

    Obviously most people here don't do any real business with CPA. If you did you could log into your CPA account, or just ask your AM, for Visa and Mastercard compliant offers.

    This is such a non-issue but yet the "guru's", a.k.a those with blogs who don't know how to make any real money, make it into one because drama sells and drama brings in the pageviews.

    Remember: Tons of guys made over 8 figures with CPA last year. When your income is that high you don't just let it die. You don't let little guys at Visa and Mastercard making a few hundred grand a year make or break your income. You find work arounds, and as always there are workarounds.

    All these new regulations do is kick new advertisers, with little experience to the curb which is a good thing.

    Always keep in mind that 99% of things you hear on forums, regardless of what forum, is false. 99% of the people who reply make nothing, know nothing, will never amount to any success online. It's just the way it is so take everything you hear with a grain of salt.

    Just surround yourself with those who know what they're doing and you'll be alright.

    Zach

    P.S - Stop wasting time worrying, and start making money. Seriously. Trust that those who make more, have much more to lose, will figure things out. Focus on your job: making your dreams, whatever they may be, come true.
    • [ 2 ] Thanks
  • I don't understand the problem behind "free + shipping" offers.

    What's the difference between these:

    1) $9.95 + free shipping

    2) $5 + $4.95 s/h

    3) free + $9.95 s/h

    Why is one more problematic than another?

    Or maybe it's targeting people on eBay who sell you a trinket that weighs 2 ounces and they charge $0.99 + $35 s/h

    No matter how you slice it, the charges are not delayed -- they're charged immediately.

    I'm not talking about anything dealing with a continuity program here!

    People keep saying that "free offers" and "free + shipping" are being targeted. What does this have to do with continuity, and why are they causing problems for credit card merchants?

    -David
  • Has anybody heard how this might affect PayPal and Clickbank?
    • [1] reply
  • the amount of crap info and nonsense in here from some people is amazing....

    i've been on the phone a half a dozen times with authorize, our processor, barak obama (just kidding), and meritus.

    i've had 2 merchant accounts shut down, one wasn't even doing forced continuity, it was doing OPTIONAL, with everything disclosed, and the box unchecked.... it didn't fly with them.

    no one knows 100% sure YET, what is compliant. They aren't saying anything as of now...

    1. if you offer ANY forced continuity you will get shut down... if not already.
    2. if you offer a free + shipping you will get shut down, if not already.
    3. if you offer a free trial of your product with continuity, you will get shut down.

    you can't have a lower 1st payment and a higher monthly payment, they are considering this a no no.

    1click upsells are an issue also.

    It looks like the trial model is done.... everyone here at affiliate summit is saying the pay upfront model is the thing now.

    If you think you know different, its just a matter of time... you will get shut down.
    • [ 1 ] Thanks
    • [1] reply
    • this is going to kill conversions.. really bring them down to the dirt.

      how are porn sites going to get away with the $3.95 trails.

      so many examples of lower first month higher 2nd month.. even cable companies do that. although they dont use visa/mc.
  • I'm going to do another video on my blog tomorrow with more updates and I'm gathering more information.

    Right now, no one really has the final answer. It's all still pretty gray.

    Here's what we do know...

    1. If you offer ANY type of continuity program - be 100% open, transparent and upfront. Put it in at least 12 point font. Keep it within 100 pixels of the order button. Mention it at least 2 times on your sales process. Give them a box to check and make it mandatory they do so before they checkout.

    2. Be crystal clear on your upsells.

    3. Do not use multiple merchant account for upsells.
    For example, if you are selling a $20 product billed to ryanlee.com, then don't offer another upsell and bill that one to bestmarketing solutions.

    People's merchant accounts ARE getting frozen.

    Play it safe and if you think you are in a hazy area, take it down.

    This has been a long time coming - and now it's time for everyone to do we all should have been from day one.

    Be open. Honest. Transparent.

    If you wouldn't be proud to have your own mother, father, brother, or sister signup for your product and go through your sales process - then DON'T SELL IT TO ANYONE!

    Stay tuned...

    Ryan
  • In my opinion if you are doing continuity I would immediately switch it to a one off fee for 3 months/6 months/12 months etc for the time being.

    A lot of people are switching their sites to a standard continuity model with the first payment equal to future payments, but even this is risky in the current climate.

    Might be worth considering switching to a one off payment until the dust settles and everything is cleared up, because at the moment a lot of merchant account providers are clearly in panic mode.

    A lot of the actions being taken and information going about is contradictory, in other words it is a shambolic mess.

    Don't forget after things are clarified you can always switch back to continuity.
  • you CAN do continuity, but there are several things that need to be fixed and changed in order to do so.... multiple check boxes confirming continuity, specific text etc.

    we've been on the phone with merchant accounts getting things sorted...
  • I wonder if Blockbuster is going to have their merchant account terminated:

    https://www.blockbuster.com/signup/m...27981/r.20145/
    • [1] reply
    • lol

      They are very clear about what is going on.
  • I wonder why I haven't heard a word from my merchant account provider about this. I just logged into my account, and even under "News" there is nothing about it.

    If there are sweeping new rules, wouldn't there be some mention of them somewhere?

    It also seems like PayPal and Clickbank would be issuing statements, since changes by MC or Visa affect them, too.

    It doesn't make sense to me.
  • Nobody knows the answers yet, all merchant accounts appear to have different opinions and interpretations after their conversations with Visa & Mastercard.

    Some say you can do $1 trials on continuity, some say you can't.

    Some say you can do free trials still, some say you can't.

    Some say you can still do 1 click upsells, some say you can't.

    It is a complete shambles basically.

    I'm not offering continuity at the moment on any projects, but if I was I would switch it to one off payments until everything is crystal clear.

    Many of the posters on this thread have been kindly trying to help by writing what their merchant accounts told them, but the problem is other merchant accounts have told other people totally different things.

    Hence all the contradictions.
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