WHOIS Privacy Considered

14 years ago

"Confirmed opt-in" equals "double opt-in", right? Just thought I'd throw that out there for those more accustomed to seeing the term "double opt-in."

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Paul Myers 14 years ago

Dan,

Yes. The common term when dealing with people who speak the "best current practice" language is confirmed opt-in. Referring to it as double opt-in is both semantically wrong and a bad idea for credibility's sake. The latter isn't as big a deal as it once was, but the former is still true.

The term "double opt-in" was invented by people who wanted to make COI seem somehow silly or particularly difficult. It's a stupid term. It's like saying that booking a hotel reservation and then having someone call to confirm it is "double booking."

Most of us have given up arguing the point, though. As long as the speaker means the same thing as COI, it's not worth the time.

Paul
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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

-Sedo.com

Basic summary: If you're sending email with ads in it, and you're not using confirmed opt-in, there's a chance you can get nailed under CAN-SPAM if you use anonymous registration for your domains.

The COI factor comes in under a part of CAN-SPAM and related rules that discuss the concept of affirmative consent, for those who might notice that it's not discussed in the article...

Paul

I don't remember ANYTHING under can-spam talking about domain registration. ON THE CONTRARY, it says you are to identify yourself IN THE EMAIL!

I AM waiting for registrars to get in trouble with the "private registration" though. Technically, it is NOT LEGAL! ICANN said, YEARS AGO, that ALL contact information MUST be legitimate! Failure to have legitimate info can result in forfeiture of the domain name.

And yeah, ANYONE can WRITE an email! It is MUCH harder to ANSWER one, unless it happens to be YOUR email address. That fact is lost on WAY too many. So the idea of a "double opt in" really DOES have a purpose!

Steve

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DogScout

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

I AM waiting for registrars to get in trouble with the "private registration" though. Technically, it is NOT LEGAL! ICANN said, YEARS AGO, that ALL contact information MUST be legitimate! Failure to have legitimate info can result in forfeiture of the domain name.
Steve

Private registration is legal. The private registrar is the legal owner of the domain and has their info on it and it is legitimate (they also forward any ICANN correspondence to you). When you go private you agree to that and the private domain company agrees to return ownership to you upon demand.

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

Steve,

If you have accurate contact information in the email, the issue of private registration is moot, from the CAN-SPAM perspective. Not so much from a network standpoint, but that's a whole other discussion.

Yes, you're supposed to have it in the email, but leaving it out is not the same thing as materially falsifying. That may seem like a legalistic quibble, but it's significant.

I AM waiting for registrars to get in trouble with the "private registration" though. Technically, it is NOT LEGAL! ICANN said, YEARS AGO, that ALL contact information MUST be legitimate! Failure to have legitimate info can result in forfeiture of the domain name.

Why do you insist on making absolute statements on issues you only know one point on? As DogScout correctly suggests, there is nothing illegal about private registration by itself. Nothing. It is also not a violation of ICANN's policies, as it is usually implemented.

And yeah, ANYONE can WRITE an email! It is MUCH harder to ANSWER one, unless it happens to be YOUR email address. That fact is lost on WAY too many. So the idea of a "double opt in" really DOES have a purpose!

The question there was not the process, Steve. Just what it's called. Please remember the correct sequence for forum discussion: Read first. THEN respond.

Paul

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Paul Myers 14 years ago

Kristi,

In some cases, these terms are created for specific PR purposes, like the "double opt-in" example.

In a lot of other cases, the language develops not in order to isolate the members here as a sub-culture, but because they're already largely isolated. For many of the members, this is their primary, or only, source of education on the subject.

That's dangerous for lots of reasons. Using email the way some people here do, and using private registration as many here suggest, is one example of the risks involved in a narrow information base.

Paul
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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Steve,

If you have accurate contact information in the email, the issue of private registration is moot, from the CAN-SPAM perspective. Not so much from a network standpoint, but that's a whole other discussion.

Yes, you're supposed to have it in the email, but leaving it out is not the same thing as materially falsifying. That may seem like a legalistic quibble, but it's significant.Why do you insist on making absolute statements on issues you only know one point on? As DogScout correctly suggests, there is nothing illegal about private registration by itself. Nothing. It is also not a violation of ICANN's policies, as it is usually implemented.The question there was not the process, Steve. Just what it's called. Please remember the correct sequence for forum discussion: Read first. THEN respond.

Paul

well, the idea of people asking WHY it should be done, and making fun of it, obviously has SOMETHING to do with them not understanding that some may enter false emails that just HAPPEN to be active, or doing it simply to create trouble.

And it DOES say to put the info in the email. The CAN-SPAM Act: A Compliance Guide for Business

This is from the FTC, so if you disagree, please take it up with them...

"Each separate email in violation of the CAN-SPAM Act is subject to penalties of up to $16,000, so non-compliance can be costly. But following the law isn't complicated. Here's a rundown of CAN-SPAM's main requirements:
...
4. Tell recipients where you're located. Your message must include your valid physical postal address. This can be your current street address, a post office box you've registered with the U.S. Postal Service, or a private mailbox you've registered with a commercial mail receiving agency established under Postal Service regulations. "

Steve

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by DogScout

Private registration is legal. The private registrar is the legal owner of the domain and has their info on it and it is legitimate (they also forward any ICANN correspondence to you). When you go private you agree to that and the private domain company agrees to return ownership to you upon demand.

Well, that is interesting. Godaddy, or at least WWD, sometimes sends out messages on other email addresses, and some of those are normally treated as spam by gmail. So you may not get everything.

Steve

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digigo

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

I don't remember ANYTHING under can-spam talking about domain registration. ON THE CONTRARY, it says you are to identify yourself IN THE EMAIL!

I AM waiting for registrars to get in trouble with the "private registration" though. Technically, it is NOT LEGAL! ICANN said, YEARS AGO, that ALL contact information MUST be legitimate! Failure to have legitimate info can result in forfeiture of the domain name.

And yeah, ANYONE can WRITE an email! It is MUCH harder to ANSWER one, unless it happens to be YOUR email address. That fact is lost on WAY too many. So the idea of a "double opt in" really DOES have a purpose!

Steve

Yes.. nothing to do with privacy registration.. you need to identify yourself in the email along with the ad.. phone.. address.. etc.. basically above the board.

false registration will get you in trouble with ICANN and you may lose the domain

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KristiDaniels

14 years ago

Paul,

I had never thought about the reason IMers and Warriors try to use the term "double opt-in" when everyone else in the entire industry uses "confirmed opt-in." That's an interesting thought on the reason. It's a bit of "blowback."

I thought it was just another example of IMers and Warriors purposefully created a sub-culture of being isolated from the rest of the online business community (99% of whom have never heard of "Internet marketing", Warriors or "double opt-in" much less "PLR", "WSO", or any number of other subculture terms used only here and having completely different terminology within the broader online business community).

Now I am going to have to ask "why" every time I hear a new Warrior specific term instead of just shrugging and wandering why the term used by the rest of the industry isn't being used instead.

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Zeus66

14 years ago

99% of whom have never heard of "Internet marketing", Warriors or "double opt-in" much less "PLR", "WSO", or any number of other subculture terms used only here and having completely different terminology within the broader online business community

More nonsense. Terms like you mention (other than "WSO") are used very frequently by many in the "broader online business community." You need to get out more (cyber-wise). Yes, there is a sub-culture here at WF, but that's true of any forum you'll find anywhere online. It's normal. But all of the terms you mentioned, save one, is widely used all over the place among online businesspeople, not just here and not just IM'ers.

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

John,

She's right. There are a lot of terms that are used differently here than they are in the wider world.

Example: When you say "private label" to a Warrior, they assume that means the right to edit a product, claim copyright, etc. That is not the most common (or even A common) meaning of the term outside of this group.

Example: "Squeeze page." Even the person who developed the technique and coined the phrase can't get it through people's heads here that it does NOT mean simply "subscription page."

Example: "Article marketing" has a very specific and narrow meaning within this group that is different from the one that will be assumed by most non-Warrior businesspeople.

I got into a conversation with a friend recently about some of the discussions that go on here. He pointed out, correctly, that many of the people here would be laughed at in the offline business world for their naivete. The concept that anyone could ask, in any serious way, if it's okay to copy someone else's work? Ridiculous.

Asking for legal advice on complicated issues from laymen, especially with the paucity of context and detail that's usually provided? Absurd.

And what so many people here call "quality writing?" A clear sign of something it would not be polite to label accurately.

This really is a different world.

Paul

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Lance K

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

She's right. There are a lot of terms that are used differently here than they are in the wider world.

Example: "Squeeze page." Even the person who developed the technique and coined the phrase can't get it through people's heads here that it does NOT mean simply "subscription page."

Paul, I think I follow your inference here, but would you mind clarifying just in case?

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DogScout

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

I got into a conversation with a friend recently about some of the discussions that go on here. He pointed out, correctly, that many of the people here would be laughed at in the offline business world for their naivete. The concept that anyone could ask, in any serious way, if it's okay to copy someone else's work? Ridiculous.

Asking for legal advice on complicated issues from laymen, especially with the paucity of context and detail that's usually provided? Absurd.

And what so many people here call "quality writing?" A clear sign of something it would not be polite to label accurately.

This really is a different world

Paul

it really is, isn't it. One reason I go to local GKIC meetings and talk to well functioning, local, sharp and caring business people. Most of us really do need to get out more. Lol.

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Zeus66

14 years ago

Paul, yes I agree in the offline world. But what she said and what I specifically quoted was the wider online business community. I've been around it long enough (mid-90s) and dealt with plenty of them when I had an email marketing business catering to non-IM clients. The jargon we use here is not much different than what is used in the rest of the online business community, with obvious exceptions. But yes, use this stuff with offliners and you'll usually get puzzled stares or smirks.

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Paul Myers 14 years ago

John,

I'm talking about online. Most of these terms have no meaning at all offline. Like, for example, 'squeeze page' or 'double opt-in' or (for the most part) 'article marketing.'

Paul
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KristiDaniels

14 years ago

Zeus,

Maybe the world Paul and I are talking about is a "wider" world than you are talking about.

Do you know the shareholders, officers or directors of any of the top 1,000 online businesses? I know several.

I assume by Paul's language (which matches the language I am used to hearing and the language of those online businesses) that he also knows people in the wider online business community with very successful online businesses.

Maybe it is you who needs to get out more. In Paul's words... how many people do you know who use the "best practices" language. That is the language of the wider online business community.

Come to think of it... it is kinda funny too. Why do we call it "best practices"? Paul? Any thoughts on that? I'm thinking it comes from the accounting industry. That is where I first heard the term.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by KristiDaniels

Why do we call it "best practices"? Paul? Any thoughts on that? I'm thinking it comes from the accounting industry. That is where I first heard the term.

Best practices is a standard term referring to the way things should be done in a particular case. I've heard the term in a LOT of cases/industries:

Best practice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for "double opt in", I never thought of the origin of the term. MAYBE you are right. I saw it before I heard about it, and I might have heard about it here. Still, "double opt in" kind of implies that the person took the action both times. I HAVE seen confirmation done by mail and even phone, as well as email. So who knows. Frankly, I never saw anything derogatory about it. Though I certainly HAVE seen people complaining and asking WHY do it TWICE!?!?!? THAT is what I was explaining earlier. Sorry if paul didn't realize that.

Steve

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KristiDaniels

14 years ago

And as Paul said... I'm talking about the wider ONLINE business community as well.

The start of this discussion was Paul pointing out that 99% of those in the online business community use the term "confirmed opt in" to mean about the same thing as Warriors and IMers use the term "double opt-in."

We obviously aren't talking about the "offline" business community here. Both are email terms... ONLINE terms. 99% of the online business community says "confirmed opt-in" whereas Warriors and IMers (which are a tiny part of the online business community) use the term "double opt-in."

If you have never heard the term "confirmed opt-in", then I would suggest that it is you who has no experience with the wider online business community because that is the term we used.

The same goes with the other examples Paul brought up. Some terms are the same, but they mean something completely different.

I can say "private label rights" among members of the wider online business community and it will be understood VERY differently than saying it here.

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Martin Luxton

14 years ago

Originally Posted by KristiDaniels

And as Paul said... I'm talking about the wider ONLINE business community as well.

The start of this discussion was Paul pointing out that 99% of those in the online business community use the term "confirmed opt in" to mean about the same thing as Warriors and IMers use the term "double opt-in."

We obviously aren't talking about the "offline" business community here. Both are email terms... ONLINE terms. 99% of the offline business community says "confirmed opt-in" whereas Warriors and IMers (which are a tiny part of the online business community) use the term "double opt-in."

If you have never heard the term "confirmed opt-in", then I would suggest that it is you who has no experience with the wider online business community because that is the term we used.

The same goes with the other examples Paul brought up. Some terms are the same, but they mean something completely different.

I can say "private label rights" among members of the wider online business community and it will be understood VERY differently than saying it here.

As Shakespeare said,

"What's in a name?
A rose by any other name is just spin."

Martin

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KristiDaniels

14 years ago

I hate the term "best practices" as used in the wider online business community. It is always used as a cover for trying to stop a discussion about the alternatives.

But it is a good example term to define the communities that Paul and I are talking about. If you hang out with the wider online business community, you will hear that term very often... annoyingly often. You will also hear the term "angel" annoyingly often.

How often do you hear those two terms here? This might be the first time I have heard it here. I know only one IMer who uses that term often... David Frey. And he mixes quite a bit with the wider online business community which is where he probably picked up that term.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by KristiDaniels

I hate the term "best practices" as used in the wider online business community. It is always used as a cover for trying to stop a discussion about the alternatives.

I RARELY, if ever, see the term "best practices" HERE, but I DO have a life, such as it is.

Frankly, any DECENT company will have the idea of "lessons learned". Eventually, that may augment the best practices. In accounting there is a best practice that you should NEVER really delete, but strike out, and notate. When computers came along, they created a special "slowly changing dimension" concept to do they same sort of thing. So that can be an example of TECHNOLOGY forcing change, albeit slightly.

Things shouldn't ever be written in stone.

Steve

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Zeus66

14 years ago

Nope, I changed my mind. Disregard.

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WD Mino

14 years ago

A lot of domain registrars register themselves as the registrar and whois: privacy is incurred for instance I own a domain where the name is registered to the hosting company but I never requested that.
But if I mail my list it always has my address location etc... the domain name also should be public unless requested I think... some of mine are public but the host I use has made it this way not sure why but that is not indicative of the person being fraudulent or whatever although it lots of times does reflect that and this case serves as a warning I suppose.
-WD

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sbucciarel

Banned 14 years ago

"The CAN-SPAM act states that "registration information is materially falsified if it is altered or concealed in a manner that would impair the ability of a recipient of the message...to identify, locate, or respond to a person who initiated the electronic mail message..."

Very interesting. I don't use WHOIS, basically because I don't own a site that I wouldn't consider an offer for, so I want people to be able to contact me. But I certainly disagree with the court ruling that privacy is material falsification of domain registration info. It may be perfectly legit info, but it's private. You can still be contacted through the whois company that is protecting the info. And if it's true, like DogScout says that (and I don't know if it is) that the domain becomes registered to the Privacy Agent, then that would most certainly not be material falsification.

A lot of people use false info without the privacy. They risk losing those domains if caught doing that, because ICANN forbids inaccurate registration information. This, to me would be the definition of material falsification.

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DogScout

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

"The CAN-SPAM act states that "registration information is materially falsified if it is altered or concealed in a manner that would impair the ability of a recipient of the message...to identify, locate, or respond to a person who initiated the electronic mail message..."

Very interesting. I don't use WHOIS, basically because I don't own a site that I wouldn't consider an offer for, so I want people to be able to contact me. But I certainly disagree with the court ruling that privacy is material falsification of domain registration info. It may be perfectly legit info, but it's private. You can still be contacted through the whois company that is protecting the info. And if it's true, like DogScout says that (and I don't know if it is) that the domain becomes registered to the Privacy Agent, then that would most certainly not be material falsification.

A lot of people use false info without the privacy. They risk losing those domains if caught doing that, because ICANN forbids inaccurate registration information. This, to me would be the definition of material falsification.

Not all privacy companies do that, but I only use those that do based on the ambiguous way that 'guide' is worded.

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KristiDaniels

14 years ago

"Things should never be written in stone."

I like that. I think that's always true. In fact, I am thinking about having it carved in stone to put over the fireplace in my den/office.

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WHOIS Privacy Considered "Material Falsification"

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